From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:36:58 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, DRUGS_ERECTILE,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E452E48F31 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXF010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0201C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 106285 Lines: 2226 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:17:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Ireland being on or near the end of the infection line would suggest that the mites causing the infestation have come from an area that was already using "chemical" control. Therefore an increased possibility of ready occurring resistance in the population. (I suspect in areas that had infection but in which the mite traveled at unhindered speed as it spread might have allowed the mite to advance ahead of resistance - the Irish sea/St. George's channel would possibly slowed the mites progression England/Wales, or however it crossed). Ready resistance would be more of a potential problem if the mites were brought in directly from a European mainland country. Therefore the reluctance to start using IPM as techniques to control V.d. is shortsighted. Resistance in the mite to chemical control will not kindly wait until the moment is opportune for beekeepers! And whilst parity is awaited, the beekeeper in the far corner who has just gained is unwelcome lodger will be matched by many others suffering for a fair period of time and having great difficulty in control. IPM is deemed less attractive as a solution as it requires a more proactive methology - but I suggest that it results in a more observant beekeeper who has a greater awareness of what is happening to his/her bees - not only regarding V.d. infestation. Commenting on being overwhelmed by mites due to re-infestation - IPM by definition maintain population levels at or under damaging levels. Beekeepers who do not keep their hives clean from my point of view should not be allowed to keep bees! - as much as it is totally against the law to keep other domesticated stock in conditions liable to cause infection in neighbouring stock. I presumeV.d.is a notifiable infestation. And if so, the the authorities should be there to help those trying to control it! (Head in the clouds again - but as you may guess from other mails, I hold the belief that we beekeepers are the cause of many of our own problems due to lax attitudes in the area of control. The authorities won't worry as long as we don't.) It would be interesting to know what work is being or would be undertaken in Ireland to determine the presence and extent of resistance. Will the Island repeat the same procedure already mapped out in the rest of Europe? My thoughts, Peter Indre France ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:40:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: IPM - Link to European Commission Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those interested in IPM and European perspective may wish to visit: http:www.entom.slu.se/res/bi/Proceedings.html Co-ordination in Europe of research on integrated control of Varroa mites in honey bee colonies. 1999 Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:29:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Lady Bugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Chinese Lady Bug had taken up residence in the supers. has any one else > experienced this? > Should we be concerned? An article by Jim Tew(?) in this month's Bee Culture describes just that. The author states he has not noticed any deliterious effect, doesn't suspect there IS any deleterious effect, but admits he doesn't know for sure. Aaron Morris - thinking that's no way to address a lady (bug)! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: The origin of Varroa destructor? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Borst's observation: > After all, Apis mellifera probably would never have gotten > thoroughly infested by varroa were it not for 1) the > importation of Apis m. into Apis cerana territory.... For a long time that is how beekeepers were told that Varroa j. "jumped" from their original target (Apis c.) to the European honeybee (Apis m.). Now it's discovered that it's not Varroa j. causing all our problems, it's Varroa d.! So I'm wondering where in this tale did Varroa d. actually come on board? Is it a similar story (Varroa d. got picked up by migratory beekeepers in their journeys) or was there some sort of mutation of Varroa j. that begat Varroa d., or what? My recollection is that Varroa d. had roots in Korea vs. SE Asia, but I'm admittedly vague on this. Was the origin of the species ever updated to reflect the discovery of Varroa d. or was that piece of the lie just glossed over. Does anyone really know? > I suggest beekeepers must give their full support to efforts > world-wide to develop mite-resistant bees. Buy these queens > and use them! Do not raise queens from "local" bees or simply > let the bees requeen themselves. (My $.02) Agree and disagree. I believe that Harbo's intent is to get the SMR trait out there by route of commercial breeders. However, I disagree with "do not raise queens from 'local' bees". Harbo's strategy is to get the SMR trait widely distributed via breeders and then incorporate this trait into local populations. The weak link in the strategy will be beekeepers who buy SMR queens and then haphazardly pursue laisse faire beekeeping, letting the purchased SMR queens supercede or swarm, without assessing the degree to which they maintain or lose the SMR traits in subsequent generations. If the progeny queens retain SMR traits they should be nurtured in beekeepers' yards. If the SMR traits are lost in subsequent generations, that line should be culled. I fear it will be the assessment piece (or lack thereof) of queens in beekeeper's yards that will hurt a goal Varroa d. victory through better breeding. And I am not altogether sure that a loss of SMR traits will be confined to the beekeeper level. My understanding is that Baton Rouge is ready to call the experiment complete. They've shown SMR traits exist and are heritable across generations. They have released highly inbred queens to commercial breeders. I hearsay (not to be construed as fact) Baton Rouge feels their part is complete and intend to move on. So a cautious consumer may want to ask of their breeder what they (the breeders) are doing to assess the degree to which SMR traits are being maintained in their own apiary. Are the SMR queens sold closely related to the queens obtained from Baton Rouge or are they 6 or 7 or 15 generations removed? If they're many generations removed, have any assessments been done to evaluate SMR traits or is the breeder merely selling SMR hype based on the lineage of a great-great-great-...-great grandmother? And don't forget the drones! Is your breeder open mating, closed population mating or II? All these variables will play in a beekeeper's results. So, even if breeding is the "Silver Bullet", remember that silver tarnishes! The only way to keep silver shiny is to polish. The only way to keep the "Silver Bullet" of breeding better bees is to continually assess subsequent generations or to continually buy queens from a breeder who is doing the assessment. Aaron Morris - thinking good queens should command good dollars! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett observed: > Here in Ireland... the current belief is that we must use chemicals, > since hives being treated by IPM would be overwhelmed by reinfestation > from feral colonies which still survive, and from colonies held by non compliant > beekeepers. > Thus the perceived wisdom here is that we cannot risk using IPM until > varroa 'stability' is achieved by varroa becoming reasonably evenly distributed. > Does experience gained in the USA and elsewhere confirm or deny > what I have said? If one is concerned about post-treatment reinfestation, one must admit that this can happen regardless of what treatment method is used. IPM, since it includes the concept of monitoring pest levels, at least has the advantage of allowing one to know one's pest levels, and know when one has been reinfested. Sounds to me like there is a general misunderstanding of what is meant by "IPM". IPM can include chemicals. IPM can be simply nothing more than an attempt to use chemicals less "blindly". IPM is an approach to dealing with pests that is simply "smarter" than the blind application of massive amounts of pesticides to all of one's livestock, crop, or land. If one thinks about it, one wants to monitor pest levels, and "do the math" before any use of any item intended to kill pests. I like to joke that IPM teaches beekeepers to "Put Descartes Before the Hearse" Now, it makes no never mind WHICH treatment option you choose, IPM approaches still do at least one of the following: a) Lower your costs, by reducing the amount of pesticide you use b) Reduce your risks, in that you only use pesticides when you must c) Measure the value of your treatment, since you are monitoring pest populations all the time. d) Allow for repeat treatments if required, which saves some number of hives that might otherwise be lost in a "blind" program. All these are good things, and all these things are accurate statements no matter if you use voodoo dolls or low-yield tactical nuclear warheads. I myself like the powdered sugar approach, since I can treat when I see a mite level start to "ramp up", without concern about contamination of the honey crop. It is also cheap enough to allow treatments at little more than the cost of labor (which in my case, is not an actual "cost", as I need the exercise, and would otherwise be getting into trouble). I honestly do not thing that varroa will ever be "evenly distributed", for exactly the reasons you listed (beekeepers who do not treat at all, feral colonies, etc). I hope I helped. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Huang said (about the Mite-Zapper): > Now I have improved the design so that perhaps 15 seconds is enough. No > need to open bee hives. connect the two terminals outside the hive and > bingo, you are done. This brings new meaning to the term "wired foundation". :) ...and Zac, in my view there MUST be a thermostat, but this can be nothing more than a cheap bimetallic "circuit breaker" that kicks out at 46C or so. (Try Cherry Switch http://www.cherrycorp.com they make good stuff, and they also don't kill you on a low-volume customize product.) Good luck with your hives with electric baseboard heating! jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:53:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa In-Reply-To: <200201150500.g0F502h13507@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst wrote: "...does anyone know how long it would take for "evolution" to generate mite-resistant bees in this manner?" I think that "name of the game" is how sharp is edge on what you are playing. How big is infestation? How close to sure death of the colonies? With such selective pressure, you are trying to force the bee to fill the mite - not just to accustom it (final goal?). My point is that majority of beekeepers are not well and equally educated and informed about (their) bees. If the opposite was the case, maybe we would never reach even this level of resistance. If we all use the acaricides best way (..., together and in the same time, ...,), as is prescribed by producers/veterinarians. Tom Barrett wrote: "...I would like to put a question regarding the problem with reinfestation." Reinfestation is best ally for achieving the resistance. If colony didn't succumb in winter (from varroa) most of the bees (with varroa on them) which will left the colony and broodnest (in some cases like a autumn swarms) will end up in neighbouring hives... and that way the pressure is dabbled, tripled... My point is that evolution can look like very speed proces - if it is let alone. The mechanism(s) of resistance will be always challenged by THIS way of spreading of varroa. In the end, it seems to me, the bee colonies from a bee yard with 500 colonies will be in better position to achieve better resistance than colonies from the bee yards with 20 colonies. >From this point of view, you can always keep one colony of bees (without treatment) in your beeyard and if it didn't die after many years - don't even think that you have discovered real resistance. On the other side, it is "good" to have such colonies in your experimental bee yard, because they will emit new extra varroa on others. One more speculation about biology of bees: we know that when healthy bee will left the closed space she will always memorize the place of exit. The sick young bee will never do so. She find herself ill (full with varroa which she cannot rid of) and she must left the colony/hive. After some time flying she will try to rest (on some leaf)... and she will find out, that she can fly again... Where she will go? ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:13:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bee Farmer Subject: Re: Lady Bugs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Here in Ohio we seem to have an abundance of them this year. I was going through my wood pile the other day and couldn't believe how many were huddled up between the wood pile. My hives have been visited by many of them but have not accumulated like in the wood pile. I sure hope the cold knocks them out this year! They were a pain last year! > > > Chinese Lady Bug had taken up residence in the supers. has any one else > > experienced this? > > Should we be concerned? > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:43:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: The origin of Varroa destructor? Comments: To: Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am in violent agreement with Aaron's insight in that: A worldwide introduction of super honey bee stock, assuming that is feasible, be it SMR or a AHB strain or SVE [Super Varroa Eater] or whatever, will not be viable, for such “silver bullet” cure fails to consider other myriad variables at play, at all times, in nature-—all unforeseen and unknown in its long-term ramifications. Microbes and mites, assisted by us, however inadvertently, or independently, WILL evolve to meet the new challenge they face, let alone the mutation and variation of the super stock itself in due time. Simply put, the struggle on both ends (beekeepers' and mites') is never-ending; hence, to many, "Life is a female dog and then you die." Consequently, the battle to stay only one step ahead of these opportunists should be considered a giant step in the right direction. Imagine how hard we will fight if we have to fight for the survival of our own species. So will the microbes and mites. Humdinger (bloody American, not Korean) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:29:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: IPM In-Reply-To: <200201150500.g0F501h13501@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/15/02 12:00 AM, you wrote: >Thus the perceived wisdom here is that we cannot risk using IPM until varroa >'stability' is achieved by varroa becoming reasonably evenly distributed. This comment seems to be base on a misunderstanding of IPM. There need not be increased risk with IPM. It merely dictates that one use a variety of control measures and save the chemicals for last, *if needed*. If you can control mites using mechanical methods, the need for chemicals won't arise. What is *not* wanted is to use chemicals first and ask questions later. That would *not* be IPM. Unfortunately, there are no hard guidelines for how many mites indicate a need to switch to chemicals, so this has to be worked out by you. You may certainly try skipping spring chemical treatment if you see no signs of mites in spring, and try non-chemical methods during summer (sugar dusting?). But have the chemicals ready if mite populations start to pick up. I have seen apiaries go a year or more without chems, but I believe there may be environmental factors involved (which are not currently identified or understood). pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:27:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: IPM In-Reply-To: <200201151227.g0FCRth18377@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200201151227.g0FCRth18377@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Dillon writes >Commenting on being overwhelmed by mites due to re-infestation >- IPM by definition maintain population levels at or under damaging >levels. Agreed. Monitoring mite levels and having the response ready for the critical level is the way. Presumably this means oxalic acid for late re-infestations unless the temperature is high enough for other treatments. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Varroa destructor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For a long time that is how beekeepers were told that Varroa j. "jumped" from their original target (Apis c.) to the European honeybee (Apis m.). Now it's discovered that it's not Varroa j. causing all our problems, it's Varroa d.! So I'm wondering where in this tale did Varroa d. actually come on board? Is it a similar story (Varroa d. got picked up by migratory beekeepers in their journeys) or was there some sort of mutation of Varroa j. that begat Varroa d., or what? My recollection is that Varroa d. had roots in Korea vs. SE Asia, but I'm admittedly vague on this. Was the origin of the species ever updated to reflect the discovery of Varroa d. or was that piece of the lie just glossed over. Does anyone really know? PB: Well, whether destructor is a separate species or not, depends on the taxonomists. Taxonomists fall into the categories of "lumpers" and "splitters". Nature does not separate species all that neatly for us. However, the following recent publication shows that it is still thought that varroa moved from cerana to mellifera. This may have happened long enough before it was noticed to give varroa time to develop a new species that is host specific, much as different species of fleas are associated with cats, dogs, etc. >Title: Parasite-host interactions between the Varroa mite and the honey bee - A contribution to sustainable Varroa control Author:J.N.M. Calis Date: 26 June, 2001 > >Varroa destructor (Anderson & Trueman, 2000), is the most important pest of European races of the Western honey bee, Apis mellifera L., weakening bees and vectoring bee diseases (Matheson, 1993). Over the past decades it has spread all over the world and control measures are required to maintain healthy honey bee colonies. > >Originally, this mite only occurred in colonies of the Eastern honey bee, Apis cerana Fabr., in Asia. Varroa destructor was formerly known as V. jacobsoni Oud. (Anderson & Trueman, 2000). The Varroa mite was described in 1904 by Oudemans as a parasite of Eastern honey bees in Indonesia. Although the actual damage inflicted by the mite to the Eastern honey bee has never been determined, the Varroa mite is not considered to be a problem in colonies of its original host. However, Varroa turned into a serious pest of Western honey bees when beekeepers moved the Western honey bee into the area of distribution of the Eastern honey bee. The mite appeared to be a harmful parasite on its new host, but before this was realised it had already spread over the world through shipments of colonies and queens (De Jong et al., 1982; Matheson, 1993). > >http://www.agralin.nl/wda/abstracts/ab3010.html An older article on the origins states: >Varroa jacobsoni was first detected in the United States in 1987 and thought to be of South American origin based on mite morphology. Since then tremendous honey bee colony mortality has been reported nationwide despite efforts of controlling these parasites. High colony losses were also recorded in Europe. In contrast, no colony mortality was reported in South America even without treatment. Using RAPD analysis, we established that mites from the United States were genetically the same as those mites from eastern Russia and Europe, and not South American mites. This observation suggests that varroa common in the United States are not from South America but most likely from eastern Russia via Europe. These genetic differences may correlate with the varied levels of virulence of varroa mites on their bee hosts. > >http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/tektran/data/000007/58/0000075870.html An interesting side note is that mellifera may have lived close to cerana in the vicinity of Kazakhstan for thousands of years. >The honey bees of the native apple forests of central Asia remained unknown and undescribed until the summer of 1999 when Dr. Tom Unruh of the USDA Wapato lab and I traveled to the region and made an extensive collection of honey bees from Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Concentrating our search for bees to populations at higher elevations, we identified two locations within the Tien Shan Mountain range where a locally adapted type seemed to predominate. Beekeepers in these areas said these bees were highly adapted to the local cold winters and were able to survive better than other bees imported from Russia, Ukraine and Carpathia, several thousand kilometers to the west. > >http://entomology.wsu.edu/apis/apinotes.html pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Varroa destructor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recently, Anderson and Trueman (2000), after studying mtDNA Co-I gene sequences and morphological characters of many populations of V. jacobsoni from different parts of the world including Australia but not New Zealand, considered it to be a species complex and split it into two species. Varroa jacobsoni s.s. infests Apis cerana F. in the Malaysia-Indonesia region. Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman, 2000 infests its natural host A. cerana on mainland Asia and also A. mellifera L. worldwide. The purpose of this paper is to determine the specific status of the New Zealand Varroa in light of the new result of Anderson and Trueman (2000). In separating V. destructor from V. jacobsoni s.s., Anderson and Trueman (2000) showed that the two species differ mainly in mtDNA Co-I gene sequences, but can also be separated by female body size: the former is larger than the latter (Table 1). The specimens from Anderson and Trueman (2000) identified two haplotypes of V. destructor that infest A. cerana in Asia and have become pests of A. mellifera worldwide. The Korea haplotype is the common one, being a parasite of A. cerana in Korea and now a pest of A. mellifera in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, North America and South America. The Japan/Thailand haplotype is less common, being a parasite of A. cerana in Japan and Thailand and also a pest of A. mellifera in Japan, Thailand and the Americas. The Korea haplotype of V. destructor appears more pathogenic to A. mellifera than the Japan/ Thailand type (Anderson & Trueman 2000). The New Zealand V. destructor is likely to be the widespread Korea haplotype. However, sequencing its DNA in the future is required to confirm this. Varroa destructor is much more widespread than V. jacobsoni s.s., and the Korea haplotype of V. destructor has the greatest geographical range among four Varroa species (Anderson & Trueman 2000). Although the origin of New Zealand Varroa is unknown at present, it is almost certain that it could not have come from Malaysia-Australia- Papua New Guinea, because only V. jacobsoni s.s. is distributed there. Thus the New Zealand Varroa is of Asian, European, American or, less likely, African origin. www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/acarology/saas/saasp/pdf10/saasp05b.pdf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? Anyone here used fully drawn plastic frames (i.e. all cell walls are plastic and only cappings are beeswax) for brood rearing? Do bees like them? Pretty soon we have to decide whether to use fully drawn plastic, or just foundation. But if bees really do not like plastic for broodrearing then we have no choice but to use foundation only. Thanks for any info. Zachary Huang http://www.mitezapper.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:43:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This topic is covered quite extensively n the archives, which can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l As far as brood rearing goes, once the frames are drawn the bees don't seem to mind them at all. This is based on my personal observations. Some beekeepers have reported problems getting the bees to draw from a plastic midrib (either foundation or full plastic frame) but a few things help: a strong colony in a good honey flow will draw plastic with no problems. If the plastic is coated with beeswax the bees will draw it more readily. If the honeyflow is not intense, feeding is a MUST! There are personal preference issues. I have never heard anyone say bad things about the sheer convenience of all plastic frames. Open the box, put 'em in the hive. It doesn't get any easier than that. Some beekeepers (including myself) do not care for the feel of plastic. I do not like how the plastic frames bite at my fingers when I roll the frames over during examination. I far prefer the feel of wooden frames with plastic foundation. I also do not like how a full plastic frame torques. And there will always be the problem of toxic fumes if ever one must burn a plastic frame (or wooden frames with plastic foundation for that matter). Finally, current research is hinting that plastic frames and even plastic foundation may not transmit vibrations as well as wax foundation. This may or may not be an issue as regards messages delivered during dance communications. Plastic dampens vibrations on the combs and if messages are being delivered, they may not be coming through as loud and clear as they might in a plastic-free environment. I don't recall who is investigating this issue, but I am positive I heard the concern raised in bee research circles. Aaron Morris - thinking plastics! The wave of the future! But I still prefer wood. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:41:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: The Hive Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an on-going father\daughter 4-H Project my daughter has asked me to = release her hand held program "Hive tool" to others that might be able = to use it. This small program is designed to work on handheld devices = like the Palm Pilot or Handspring Visor. The program is a very simple = tool that can be used to keep notes on your hives. As a father and = daughter project we hope all will enjoy. Please remember to get kids = involved in 4-H and especially beekeeping! =20 The program Hive tool can be downloaded at: http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html or = http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping=20 http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:07:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature >This brings new meaning to the term "wired foundation". :) > >...and Zac, in my view there MUST be a thermostat, but this >can be nothing more than a cheap bimetallic "circuit breaker" >that kicks out at 46C or so. (Try Cherry Switch http://www.cherrycorp.com >they make good stuff, and they also don't kill you on a low-volume >customize product.) > >Good luck with your hives with electric baseboard heating! > > jim > > farmageddon Jim, Yes, I agree a thermastat would be better, but some might see this as "too complicated". Also adds to the cost. I am thinking just to use timing. If one was told to zap for 15 seconds, they can have a watch and do that. of course 5 min would be tougher to count (unless has countdown timer). but if it does not add too much to the cost, I am open to it. The trick is, will it still work inside the plastic (embedded -- basically we put wireframe in, then injection mold the whole frame using melten plastic). Coming to thinking it, bi-metal would not work inside plastic... they will space to separate when it is warm/hot enough. Thanks for the info thou. Zach, the mitezapper :) http://www.mitezapper.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:49:36 -0600 Reply-To: charlie harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: charlie harper Subject: Re: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? In-Reply-To: <200201161831.g0GIVCh10867@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience with full drawn plastic comb is the bees do not like it, they have to have no other choice for them to store honey or rear brood for them to use the comb. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: BEE-L: approval required (CC77CE58) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by shakeyjake@CENTURYTEL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It has been edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=CC77CE58) (60 lines) ------------------- From: "Shakey Jake" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: RE: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:03:10 -0500 Hi Zach We put out about 40 all plastic frames last year in the upper brood box on new colonies. The bees were slow to draw out, but most of them turned out ok. Really won't have a good idea till we can get back in them in spring. If you decide to try all plastic for your "varroa destructor" you may need to contact one of the manufactures of them and ask if they can be molded out of a heat resistant nylon plastic. The ones we purchased seem to be molded from a high density polyethylene and would suffer severely from the heat of the wires. High heat nylon from Dupont can handle up to 400 f ( for a short period) without distortion. Jake Good-Rich Apiaries www.good-rich.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: BEE-L: approval required (7E6BF8B5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by beekeeper100@HOTMAIL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material ----------------- Original message (ID=7E6BF8B5) (77 lines) ------------------- From: "Dr. Ken Lightle Ph.D." To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:18:56 -0500 Plastic frames are exclusively going into all of my new hives. Just use a little 2:1 sugar syrup and a product called "Honey Bee Healthy" In few days (7-15) almost all 10 frames are drawn and you're ready to go! The queen is already laying and nectar/pollen is being gathered. Ken www.buckeyebee.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:16:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen's HotMail Subject: Important Notice to BEE-L Members MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When replying to messages on BEE-L be sure to delete all unnecessary quotes of the previous message from your reply. With very few exceptions, messages containing more than a few small quotes WILL BE DELETED by the moderators. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (CC77CE58) Jake, Let us say the fully drawn plastic works (I assume this is what you have). After 5-8 years of broodrearing there will be many layers of cocoon left in there. wax ones we melt them. plastic ones? how do we rid of cocoons? this might be a problem! Zapper Huang :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Drone combs, plastic or not In-Reply-To: <200201171827.g0HIR4h18679@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings I have used plastic foundation for decades, both in wooden frames and the one piece plastic Pierco frames. I have not used the deep celled plastic combs. But my question is: Why do you not want to use the beeswax drone foundation? For the purposes you describe, it seems perfectly fine. It's cheap and readily available. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:55:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: FULL plastic frames for brood rearing? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MiteZapper project. If using plastic foundation only, it may melt the wax. This idea may work for Zachary's mitezapper project. Maybe plastic foundation with plastic cells about 1/6th or 3/32nd of an inch high will work, or a little higher. The wire been within this area may be far enough from the wax so that it will not melt it. And let the bees draw out the rest of the way of the cells. Just sharing my thoughts. Maurice _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:26:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa destructor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/01/02 05:16:14 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Taxonomists fall into the categories of "lumpers" and "splitters". >> Taxonomus conglomoratus and T. separabilis. Do they hybridise? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:10:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: cocoons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > After 5-8 years of broodrearing there will be many layers of cocoon left in > there. wax ones we melt them. plastic ones? how do we rid of cocoons? If cocoons build up beyond a certain level (whether plastic or wax foundation) the workers chew away the complete sidewall and rebuild a fresh one. Full depth plastic comb obviously cannot be chewed down, but there is no reason why the cocoon layer cannot be chewed off of the plastic substrate. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 06:42:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Returning Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Gary C. Lewis [mailto:gclewis@USACHOICE.NET] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 9:54 PM Hello Bee People, Has been about 3 years or so since I was last on this list. Gave up our bees two years ago when our daughter was born.Being older now, she and me, it is time to get back to bees this spring. Have not kept up with what has been going on. I guess there is still the "normal" on going battles with V/T mites. When last I was here the "Hive Beetle" was begining to damage hives and spread very quickly around the country. Have been looking around for local bee keepers that may be able to provide bees this spring. Prices for package bees are very high fom the companies I have bought from in the past are anywhere from$50. to$75.00. Might see if I can't catch wild swarms the wid bee population has been on the increase in this area. Noticed many more bees last summer than any year before. Had a few hives swarm on me over the years perhaps they made it in the wild. Just wanted to drop in and say hello. Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, McKean County, Pa. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:01:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Indre from France stated his opion: Commenting on being overwhelmed by mites due to re-infestation - IPM by definition maintain population levels at or under damaging levels. Beekeepers who do not keep their hives clean from my point of view should not be allowed to keep bees! Will here's mine for what is may be worth. If you do not use 4.9 foundation you should do IPM. The 4.9 comb elements the use of IPM, medications, labor to install them and lets me go back to beekeeping. I had near 500 colonies in 1996 when the mites hit Deming, NM USA. I put in meds, and lost bees. I put in essential oils and lost bees. My hives numbers went down regardless of what I did. Then I learned of the Lusby in Tucson, Az, USA and went and talked to them. It took me another two years to decide they were on the trail of the kind of beekeeping I wanted to do so I changed and lost more bees. I went down to less than 60 hives at the end of my collapse. I now have near 100 again and am looking forward to having my 500 back. My bees have brood in them as of a week ago and I may loose some more but this is working, for me. I have not used any meds of any kind for over 3 years now and do not need to use them. I save in my pocket the expense of all the labor and money. My troubles are not over and I do have mites and I do get AFB but at levels that are not destructive to the hive. So why should I go back to IPM or chemicals or other methods that just did not work for me????? Regards, Lee Gollihugh, Sr. Deming, NM, USA nmbeekeeper@swnm.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 0102 17:21:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Comments: cc: SMR@listserv.albany.edu Some interesting SMR info on the U.C.Davis website PDF. Check out Nov./Dec.2001 -Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:26:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (CC77CE58) In-Reply-To: <200201171827.g0HIR4h18679@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The wax can still easily be melted as the plastic can easily withstand temperatures greater than that needed for wax to melt. I would simply but the frame in boiling water until the wax melts then remove the frame. the wax floating on top of the water will recoat the frame, which is generally what you want anyways. The only real trick is getting a container big enough to hold a couple frames at a time. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: IPM In-Reply-To: <200201181708.g0IH82h24823@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/18/02 10:01 AM, you wrote: >I do get AFB but at levels that are not destructive to the hive. What is that supposed to mean? pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:34:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Two Feeding Questions I searched the archive for this - no joy. I have some 2001 combs that I suspect have some sugar syrup stored along with Blackberry honey. #1 - If true, is it OK to feed Fumidil treated sugar 9-10 months after it was prepared? #2 - The Honey - I am assuming it is safe to feed honey to hives that shared the same beeyard - right? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:48:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: IPM vs. Strips Mr. Gollihugh is to be commended on many levels, including long term planning, hard work, etc.. As a sideliner though, I spent about 2 minutes per hive total treating with a strip of Checkmite in my 110 hives, and only lost 4, none due to mites. Before treatment I had up to 14 mites per drone cell, and the ground before the apiaries was covered with bees with shrivelled up wings. My bees look great now, and I should be able to harvest my first crop in about 2-3 weeks, or even sooner on some hives. Regards to all Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:31:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: > > Mr. Gollihugh is to be commended on many levels, including long term > planning, hard work, etc.. As a sideliner though, I spent about 2 minutes > per hive total treating with a strip of Checkmite in my 110 hives, and only > lost 4, none due to mites. IPM does take time. I am not sure what the criteria you use for treatment, so you may practice it. The intent of IPM is responsible use of pesticides. There is no question that a set routine of pesticide use works and makes life much easier for the farmer/beekeeper/fruit grower but it can easily get into the area of overkill and misuse. And in the long run is counterproductive. Many on this list practice it without calling it such. They check for mites and apply controls when the mites reach a certain level. That is IPM. They are better beekeepers because they are involved and interested in what is going on in the apiary. They are responsible stewards. They are also the survivors who have weathered many storms and have done so with varroa. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:41:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (CC77CE58) >the plastic can easily withstand temperatures greater than that needed for wax to melt. I would simply but the frame in boiling water until the wax melts then remove the frame. Wax melts at about 145 F. The water would only need to be a bit more than that wouldn't it? I'm not sure I'd want boiling water. I tried to reclaim some plastic foundations a few years back by placing them in a solar melter for a short period of time, and in a short period of time they were no longer suitable for use in a Langstroth hive. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:53:03 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips In-Reply-To: <200201201525.g0KFPUh06001@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: > There is no question >that a set routine of pesticide use works As a generality, this is unfortunately incorrect. There are many examples of inefficacy of pesticides, even when used according to instructions. The late U Calif prof Robt van den Bosch in his classic book 'The Pesticides Conspiracy' gave many examples, as does the textbook 'Ecoscience' by Ehrlich, Ehrlich & Holdren. Some of the flops are due to poisoning natural predators; a pest that is still on the hoof and palatable to its predator can kill the predator which eats dozens of the pest species per day. This may well be what Bill was thinking of when he added >And in the long run is counterproductive but the counterproductivity is, in many well-documented cases, sooner than that. In the long run, pesticide-resistant mutant pests are pretty well bound to prevail, as shown by the tragic history of malaria control and many other cases. All this is apart from the side-effects on humans which are a real concern regarding many pesticides. According to the UN FAO, pesticides kill tens of thousands of humans each year (mainly in the Third World). Sub-lethal poisoning must be even more frequent. IPM properly understood is really the best way forward, for those who feel unable to kick the pesticide habit cold. IPM need not entail any pesticides, if they prove not to be needed; but they are held in reserve for minimal use if necessary. The management of apple pests by IPM was largely developed at Wash State U and is a great credit to those scientists. Compared with blind routine use of pesticides, it is far wiser. I say this without any fear of contradiction from any expert in applied ecology. And when you can kick the habit, what awaits you can be as good as is now achieved by NZ organic apple growers who have just racked up a new record of $80/case when pesticide-laden apples fetch only about $16. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:59:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: IPM In-Reply-To: <200201200413.g0K4DLh26104@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all: It was written and replied to by PB: >I do get AFB but at levels that are not destructive to the hive. What is that supposed to mean? Reply: Probably that there was not sufficient AFB material within the colony that it couldnot handle itself and therefore it was staying healthy and keeping everything under control. Interesting on reading what beekeepers consider IPM nowadays. The movement started in California afaer WWII as supervised insect control, which in the 1950s became "integrated control". This was when entomologists began to identify the best mix of chemical and biological controls of a given pest to avoid conoflict with biological control (bio-control in the beginning was without chemicals). President Nixon made IPM national policy in 1992 and by 1993, the USDA, EPA, and FDA bought the idea and called for implementing IPM on 75% of US crop acerage by 2000 (by some estimates, true IPM is practiced on only 408% of US farm acerage. Many confuse "integrated control" with IPM. what IPM did was extend the concept of integrated control to all classes of pests and to include more than chemical or biological controls. Artificial control like pesticides were to be applied as integrated control, but these now had to be compatible with control tactics for all classes of pests. In 1998 the USDA put in place a PAMS strategy for IPM where is where beekeepers today will recognize certain things now happening. For to qualify as IPM, a farmer or beekeeper would have to use at least three of the PAMS strategy scenarios which are practicing 1) prevention, 2) avoidance, 3) monitoring 4) suppresion. Monitoring beekeepers today seem to have learned well. Prevention they try with so-called various treatments. Avoidance or setting the stage for not coming down with the problem of out-of-control mites is practiced by few, as is suppression, though resistance strains of bees are popping up here and there. To me IPM to be really effective is to do it without the chemical side, but this takes much planning and field work and is labor intensive. But it is the long road to security and live bees, when the other road is various treatments and a continuing treatmill that gets harder and harder to get off of with ease and keep a livehood going. Just some thoughts and a little history for some not familiar with the past. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:27:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell replied: They are also the survivors who have weathered many storms and have done so with varroa Reply: It takes all of the beekeepers to supply the market. No one person or technique is going to work for everyone, because I will try something that may work for me and not for you. This is why Ed and Dee have invited others to their location to see their operation and how the bees are. Thanks BEEKEEPERS for you views, keep it up. I may not listen but at least I have been shown. Regards, Lee Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: As a sideliner though, I spent about 2 minutes per hive total treating with a strip of heckmite in my 110 hives, and only lost 4, none due to mites. Reply: If it works for you, keep it up. There is something about getting a honey crop that makes us thank that all the hard work is worth it. And it is. The reason I am doing what I am doing is explained in Bee Culture, Jan 2002, page 8, the Inner Cover. Chemicals are not going to work forever. I just wanted to get a jump on what may work, for me. Regards, Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:52:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I do get AFB but at levels that are not destructive to the hive. pb ask: > What is that supposed to mean? Reply: That means the bees are healthy and are able to keep the AFB under control. Resistance?? There are three beekeepers in NM who do not treat for AFB that I know of . We just do not treat. When I find some AFB on a comb I take it out and mark that hive to check it a week or so later. Regards, Lee Deming, NM USA De,omega ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:57:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > The intent of IPM is responsible use of pesticides. There is no question > that a set routine of pesticide use works and makes life much easier for > the farmer/beekeeper/fruit grower but it can easily get into the area of > overkill and misuse. And in the long run is counterproductive. Bill, You hit the nail on the head about IPM vs Strips. I like to add one thing for beekeepers to think about. We already have lost Apistan because mites developed resistance. The continuous use and rely on one single miticide will always cause the development of resistance by varroa mites. If beekeepers do not use a multiple strategy for mite control we will allow mites to continue developing resistance to the used miticides. As an early indication of this situation is happening, Coumaphos resistant varroa mites have been found in limited areas in the US. Therefore, IPM vs Strips is a long term sustainable strategy to keep strips in use for longer time. Medhat Rutgers University, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: IPM In-Reply-To: <200201210439.g0L4drh21036@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 6:59 -0800 1/20/02, Dee Lusby wrote: >To me IPM to be really effective is to do it without the >chemical side, but this takes much planning and field work >and is labor intensive. That is an entirely personal interpretation of IPM. Generally, IPM is understood to mean the use of any and all control methods, *as needed*. What you are describing is an "organic" approach, which forbids chemicals. Unfortunately, most organic farming associations do not recognize beekeeping as a potentially organic farming pursuit. Why? Because pesticides are so ubiquitous, that even if you don't use them, they are brought back to the hive by the bees in the pollen and honey. Another *important* criterion of an Integrated Pest Management regime is that it HAS TO BE COST EFFECTIVE. No one is expected to lose money year after year. If beekeeping is your hobby you can sink tons of money in it. If it is your livelihood, you don't want to lose the farm. Last, but not least, keeping bees in the southern desert is entirely different from keeping bees in most other climes. Beware that many techniques do not export well. Here the hives experience a very rapid buildup which is paralleled by an extremely rapid buildup of mites. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201210439.g0L4drh21036@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >It was written and replied to by PB: >>I do get AFB but at levels that are not destructive to the hive. > >What is that supposed to mean? > >Reply: >Probably that there was not sufficient AFB material within >the colony that it couldnot handle itself and therefore it >was staying healthy and keeping everything under control. In New York state and in many other states, in the presence of *any* AFB infection, the law requires the destruction of the bees and hive. The reason is: AFB is so contagious that it cannot be eliminated by simply pulling a few frames. At one time AFB infection rates were very high and the rate was brought down by burning. Then beekeepers switched to medicating, which some say merely covers up the symptoms. We now know that there is AFB which no longer responds to terramycin. But to see AFB in a hive and say, it's under control by the bees, is utter nonsense. It ain't under control and it ain't going away on its own. I have kept bees for almost 30 years and I have *never* seen a hive get rid of AFB on its own. Granted, some hives may be resistant in that they do not show symptoms after being exposed to AFB spores, but that is a different thing entirely. In the desert where apiaries may be widely separated, *you* experiment with AFB. Around here, it's illegal. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:41:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann wrote: > There are many > examples of inefficacy of pesticides, even when used according to > instructions. The late U Calif prof Robt van den Bosch in his classic book > 'The Pesticides Conspiracy' gave many examples, as does the textbook > 'Ecoscience' by Ehrlich, Ehrlich & Holdren. Some of the flops are due... Old time insecticides like Malathion are also still producing great pest control success stories like this one: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Boll Weevils Nearly Eliminated in Cotton Belt http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020112/sc/markets_cotton_insects_dc_1.html Saturday January 12 10:06 AM ET ATLANTA, Georgia (Reuters) - Boll weevils, once a leading pest for farmers in the U.S. cotton belt, is on the way to being eliminated in the country, a government report said on Saturday. Osama El-Lissy and Bill Grefenstette of the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service said in a joint report to the annual Beltwide Cotton conference that a large chunk of the cotton belt stretching from Georgia to California had virtually eradicated the pest. El-Lissy said 33 percent of cotton-growing states have completed elimination of the boll weevil and some 65 percent ''are nearing eradication.'' A total of 10 million acres were being treated for boll weevil with malathion, the main chemical used as a pesticide, through aerial and ground spraying and mist blowers, he said. Only a few areas in Texas and in the U.S. South will see an expansion of boll weevil eradication programs in 2002. Earlier in the week, a report at the same conference by Michael Williams of the Entomology and Plant Pathology Department of the Mississippi State University extensive service said boll weevils had fallen to the seventh most damaging cotton pest in the United States. The only states to lose bales to boll weevil are Arkansas, Missouri, New Mexico, Tennessee and Texas. Those losses reached 28,414 bales. The total U.S. cotton harvest in 2001/02 was estimated by the USDA to hit a record 20.08 million bales. "For the first time since these reports began in 1979, boll weevil was not one of the top five major pests for cotton in the United States,'' said Williams. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zach: > Jim, Yes, I agree a thermostat would be better, but some might see this as > "too complicated". It would be simpler. The bi-metalic cut-out would insure that the current passed through the wire was "enough", and cut off the current at the correct time without a need to "time" the connection (but I must admit that your new 15-second design makes the task of timing much less taxing...). > The trick is, will it still work inside the plastic (embedded -- It does not have to. One would need only ONE bi-metalic thermostat, and one could mount it on the battery, or otherwise between the power source and frame. The bi-metalic thermostat would be in series with the heating coil in the frame. While the two would heat up independently, the thermostat will still heat up at a consistent rate, and deliver "X" joules before it trips. Think of the whole set-up as a dead short with a slo-blo circuit breaker, and it might be less complicated to visualize. The circuit breaker is never co-located with the short, but it still trips. jim Farmageddon (where we dream the dreams your stuff are made of) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Paul Cherubini" > Old time insecticides like Malathion are also still producing great pest > control success stories like this one: > Boll Weevils Nearly Eliminated in Cotton Belt > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020112/sc/markets_cotton_insects_dc_1.html > Saturday January 12 10:06 AM ET Please note that Paul Cherubini is not speaking as a beekeeper. He is an enthusiastic pesticide salesman. You can run a search of his past posts for more info. Need I say more? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:46:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adony melathopoulos Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Treatment thresholds may be possible when considering spore levels rather than incidence of disease. Europe, Australia and New Zealand that sample honey and adult bees for AFB spores, and based on the results, figure out how heavy the risk of having AFB in the operation. AFB spores can be detected in honey at levels below which symptoms are seen, making it possible to provide a better idea of when antibiotics are no longer necessary for protection. Acknowledging that not all beekeepers use antibiotics, a threshold based on spore levels could also direct beekeepers to adjust the intensity of comb decontamination (by irradiation or replacement) or colony inspection efforts. Are there any beekeepers on BEE-L from countries with an active honey spore-detection service? How do you use the service? > But to see AFB in a hive and say, it's under control by the bees, is > utter nonsense. It ain't under control and it ain't going away on > its own. I have kept bees for almost 30 years and I have *never* seen > a hive get rid of AFB on its own. I agree with Peter, however, there is evidence that not all colonies with clinical symptoms of AFB necessarily die: Woodrow, A. W. and H. J. States. 1943. Removal of diseased brood in colonies infected with AFB. ABJ 83: 22-23. The caveat was: "In the three years no colony in which more than 100 cells of (AFB) diseased brood were found recovered from the disease". Let us be clear, the results of the study clearly do not suggest that colonies with fewer than 100 cells with AFB should be left unmanaged to see if they clean themselves up. The point is that AFB is not like Varroa and the disease does not, in all cases, become immediately worse; some colonie will recover and some will recover only temporarily. A few researchers believe AFB may be present in colonies at levels below which visual inspection can detect. One scenario for how this may be happening is that although larvae keep getting infected, nurse bees keep yanking out diseased lavae, making it hard to spot a low level infection. For this reason, I would agree with Peter that a management threshold may not be easily linked to the incidence of visual symptoms may not be very useful; it is too late. Maybe there is hope, however, for reducing antibiotic use following a threshold tied to the levels of spores in an operation / apiary / colony. Adony ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Another *important* criterion of an Integrated Pest Management regime > is that it HAS TO BE COST EFFECTIVE. No one is expected to lose money > year after year. If beekeeping is your hobby you can sink tons of > money in it. If it is your livelihood, you don't want to lose the > farm. Peter's comment is really where IPM is a hard sell to farmers. It requires monitoring and they have to be shown that it can be done and will reduce costs by less use of pesticides and optimum kills when they are used. In Maine, some University students are lent out to farmers to run their IPM program and show how they can save money. To an extent, it works, but too often, when the student leaves, IPM does too. Apple IPM was mentioned and some of the first research was done right here in Maine. I was able to hear the presentations by the originators at our Ag Show. They were "Organic" farmers who knew that the best apple varieties needed spray and they wanted to reduce spraying to a minimum. (I grow several different varieties of apples and without question, the ones bred to use less pesticides have the least flavor - but they do look good. I do not spray and eat around the damage. I have also come to the conclusion that if it says Organic, it only means it might be, especially with apples and probably is not with honey.) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:18:46 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > ...AFB is so contagious that it cannot be eliminated by > simply pulling a few frames. It appears to me that people are still treating a simple bacteriological infection the same way they treated the Salem Witches, and with the same level of scientific rigor. :) I can understand burning hives that are "too far gone", but AFB is really not all that "contagious" in itself. It is spread more by beekeepers who cross-contaminate hives when they are "subclinical", and are showing no symptoms. Read all about it here: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/disease/beecult.htm New York appears to have much to learn from New Zealand. We all do. > At one time AFB infection rates were very high and the > rate was brought down by burning. So, let me get this straight... 1) One detects AFB 2) One may only detect a single cell showing symptoms. 3) Even if the hive is otherwise doing fine, one burns it. 4) One thereby destroys what would otherwise be a contributor to a strain of AFB-resistant (or tolerant) bees. > Then beekeepers switched to medicating, which some say > merely covers up the symptoms. It certainly does not kill dormant spores, but only people who slept through biology in middle school would expect any different. While dormant spores are very, very hard to kill, one will soon be able to start each season with an absolute assurance of AFB-free equipment, as soon as we find a US Postal Service manager who is a beekeeper, or environmentally oriented. The "beam" equipment that will kill anthrax will certainly also kill even dormant foulbrood spores. Simply mailing one's gear to oneself should be enough, and likely, we can negotiate a "decontamination day" on some winter Sunday every year, where we can gain access to loading docks directly, and run a production line. (At several million dollars each, someone might as well get some use out of the machines, since the anthrax mailer appears to have run out of either anthrax or stamps.) > I have kept bees for almost 30 years and I have *never* seen > a hive get rid of AFB on its own. Of course not, you burned them all before they had a chance! :) Do you include in the statement above hives that were treated using the usual product(s), or are you talking about hives left untreated? As I recall, hives treated properly can be said to have been "cured", with the proviso that no one can really know where any dormant spores might be. There are phages that can be used to detect AFB, but they require culturing the bacteria, which requires FINDING spores to culture. Therefore, one must be willing to shake all one's bees into new woodenware, and toss the old hives, every piece, drawn comb and all, into a blender and centerfuge to detect "subclinical" AFB (dormant spores, or an infection that is cleaned up by the bees before you can see it.) Bottom line, you don't know if you have dormant AFB spores, and neither do I. No one can know until symptoms show up. Therefore, I submit that every hive in New York must be burned if you want to really eliminate AFB through burning hives. Burning hives simply because they start to show symptoms is much like shooting everyone who you see sneezing in an effort to defeat the flu. You will simply waste a lot of time and ammo, and your goal will not be achieved, no matter how high the body count. Symptoms lag "infection", and often lag "period of contiguousness" in all cases for all bacteriological infections, sometimes by extended periods. What one can do about AFB/EFB is what they suggested in New Zealand, which was to cease moving frames between hives, and perhaps even dedicate specific supers to specific hives. They found these and other common beekeeper actions to be the major factor in the spread of AFB, and other factors (such as AFB spreading due to drifting bees) to be non-issues. There are lots of papers on "Paenibacillus larvae subspecies larvae" (the long-winded name for AFB), but you have to be able to correctly type the long name correctly into citation databases, and then slog through terms like "bacteriophage", "od PCR - RFLP techniques", and other arcane terminology unique to microbiology. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From "A Short History of the Empire State Honey Producers' Association", by Roger Morse (1967) : >AFB was rampant in New York State in the 1920's. In NYS, Mr. A. C. Gould must be credited with demonstrating how American Foulbrood can be controlled through a rigid inspection program. He served as state inspector from 1928 till 1965. When Mr. Gould assumed responsibility fro bee disease inspection, the record shows that well over six per cent of the colonies in the state were infected with AFB. > >Gould advocated burning infected colonies, and after ten years, reduced the degree of infection to slightly more than one per cent. The Second World War resulted in a dramatic increase in the number of hobby beekeepers and in fewer inspectors being available to check colonies, As a result, the number of infected colonies increased and 1946 four per cent had AFB. By 1958 it was less than 1 per cent. > >Mr. Gould felt that it probably would be impossible to reduce the level to much less than one per cent without greatly increasing the number of inspectors. The spore stage may remain alive in old equipment for more than 30 years. More recently, "The Genetic Basis of Disease Resistance", by Robert Page and Ernesto Guzman-Novoa (1997): >Expectations should be realistic. The elimination of disease problems through selective breeding is not a realistic objective. Instead, a reduction in incidence or a reduction of the need to treat chemically may be attainable; the complete elimination of the need to treat chemically is not. > >Selection is an ongoing process that is necessary to produce and maintain resistant stocks. Selective progress will begin to deteriorate as soon as the selection on the population is relaxed. > >Numerous unsubstantiated claims of disease-resistant stocks are found in the bee journals. The first successful breeding program for resistance to AFB was implemented in September 1934 by O. W. Park, et al. They successfully developed and maintained resistant stock for 15 years. > >The worldwide eradication of any honey bee disease is unrealistic. Selective breeding programs will not succeed without economic incentives. Current prices paid for queens produced in the US will not support the added expense of industry driven breeding programs. Institutional programs such as the USDA's have never succeeded, partly because of the failure of the bee industry to adopt the stocks they produced. The above comes from "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" edited by Roger Morse and Kim Flottum (1997). Also from the book is the information that while apiary laws vary from state to state, Arizona has the distinction of having NO apiary laws, having repealed them all in 1994. The incidence of disease in that state is unknown. Many states such as Montana, South Dakota and Wyoming require all of the following: Registration of colonies, identification of apiaries, inspector right of entry, controlled apiary location, inspection of apiary, and AFB quarantine. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <200201212049.g0LKnih11665@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> I have kept bees for almost 30 years and I have *never* seen >> a hive get rid of AFB on its own. > >Of course not, you burned them all before they had a chance! :) > >Do you include in the statement above hives that were treated using >the usual product(s), or are you talking about hives left untreated? We were talking about whether simply removing frames from a diseased hive could cure AFB, or if they could recover from it on their own. Using antibiotics would be a separate issue. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:53:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > What one can do about AFB/EFB is what they suggested in New Zealand, > which was to cease moving frames between hives, and perhaps even dedicate > specific supers to specific hives. They found these and other common beekeeper > actions to be the major factor in the spread of AFB, and other factors (such as > AFB spreading due to drifting bees) to be non-issues. Drifting bees may not be the major way that AFB moves but robbing is. It was the way that a friend got it pollinating a blueberry field with another beekeeper. If you are just looking at a single apiary with a single beekeeper practicing good beekeeping, I agree. But bring in another apiary and poor beekeeping practices, such as not discouraging robbing, then all bets are off, as is noted in the article. NZ also has countrywide registration of hives and a countrywide inspection program. And they burn in New Zealand- quoting from the article >Beekeepers in New Zealand eliminate AFB by using routine and constant AFB inspection, >managing their beehives in such a way that they reduce the spread of AFB, and destroying >colonies that are found to have clinical infections of the disease. I am not sure what "clinical infection" means in terms of when they destroy a colony. I think we are talking apples and oranges when we bring in New Zealand as an example since we are not doing much of what they have in effect. You can do everything correct as they do it in NZ, and be zapped by a fellow beekeeper here in the US. We just do not have the program they have there. Closest thing I have seen to their system is what is done with the migratory (blueberry) pollinators that come into Maine with their 60,000 hives. Inspection is mandatory and hives are burned when AFB is found. And still the AFB rate is around 4% every year. Compare that to the fact that at least double the number of apiaries are unregistered than registered that are in Maine. And there is no mandatory inspection program. And we have a State inspector while other States do not. If the rate is 4% in a managed program.... Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: IPM vs. Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Green said: >> Boll Weevils Nearly Eliminated in Cotton Belt >> >> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020112/sc/markets_cotton_insects_dc_1.html >> Saturday January 12 10:06 AM ET > Please note that Paul Cherubini is not speaking as a beekeeper. He is an > enthusiastic pesticide salesman. You can run a search of his past posts for > more info. Need I say more? Yes, you need to apologize to Mr. Cherubini and the list for tarring him with a brushfull of argumentum ad hominem. I don't care if the fellow was a henchman of Generalissimo Francisco Franco, he has every right to point to one of the BEST examples of an IPM program that included exactly the sort of coordination and processes required to "win". I'll say it again - IPM is a very good thing, no matter if you are using voodoo dolls or tactical nuclear warheads as your "treatment". IPM encourages a range of treatments, and does not focus on any one "solution", since it admits that there is no single solution. The most recent VA State beekeepers meeting included a video on the Boll Weevil IPM approach used by cotton growers at their last meeting. It was a video that focused on processes, not pesticides. The goal was detection, not decimation. If beekeepers got even half as organized as the cotton growers, it would be a miracle. Beekeepers should seek out cotton growers, and ask what they learned from their experience. Any decent IPM program REDUCES pesticide use, so please give Mr. Cherubini a break - he is surely seeing less commissions from sales of pesticides to cotton growers as a result of IPM, not more. jim (often a pest in his own right) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:20:44 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: IPM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Our main chemicals fan reports some success with a chemical pesticide. If chemical control of the boll weevil is as successful as he makes out, this could be a commercial difficulty for those corporations trying to work up a systemic insecticide in cotton by gene-tampering! (BTW, cotton linters are in principle edible and are indeed used in some mfd foods.) I had not said synthetic pesticides *never* work. To cite one case of apparent efficacy is hardly to comment at all on the fact that there have been many flops which is the point I was registering (not conceded by the chemofan, but well documented and indeed notorious amongst ecologists). R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:16:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lennard Pisa Subject: AFB and nutrition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi All, Following the list closely for a while now and never seen someone write on the relation between bee diet and disease? Should I search te archives as this subject is already chewed out or covered in the Bailey and Boll book I did not put my hands on yet...Why are there no people recently stating which local flora has real effect on bee resistance to pests? "grow a stretch of this and you'll never see a spore/beetle/mite/fungus again") (would a diet good for mas brood rearing also maximaly boost bee immune system? Do we always meet the minimum requierments?) Here (Netherlands) we are "grassed up", big parts of the small country with diverse flora have changed for monoculture and grassy landscape in the last 50 years. Cities give often honey that is too "herbal" for my taste for bread and pollen that takes much work to identify due to all the exotics. Old beekeepers in places that still have "exceptional" rich bee flora say they make it without any pest management (except for mesh floors and maybe a controlled swarming technique). Good flowering in one's own location helps, but how much? regards, Lennard Pisa _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:18:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: "Aggressive" Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aggression is not always the fault of the queen. Many years ago I had to move an apiary for a season due to construction work,. These bees were bred for docility and could be handled in shirt sleeves, often with a class of thirty children standing around with just veils, no other protective clothing. The bees were moved to the edge of a deep railway cutting, the only place available at the time. Opposite the entrances were telephone wires, a dozen or more only a few feet away. A light diesel train ran through every hour duinng the day. Those bees became so mean that all work with the children had to be suspended. They just went wild as soon as opened. Only during a nectar flow could they be handled and even then gloves were necessary. Clearly the trouble was due to the location, whether the train or the wires or both. When they were moved back the following year they became their usual docile selves within a few days. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:19:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << I think the point I was trying to make regarding angry hives, it cannot just be down to genetics, when replacing the queen almost instantly they quiet down.>> Dave E. Beowulf Cooper, founder of B.I.B.B.A. and author of the book The Honeybees of the British Isles, carried out a series of experiments to find the cause of aggression. Put briefly he took three queens from aggressive stocks and replaced them with queens from docile stocks. Within twenty four hours all the bees were docile. He then put queens from angry stocks into docile ones. Immediately the stocks become aggressive. In another experiment he removed the queen from an angry stock and replaced her with a queen cell from a docile one. As soon as the virgin emerged the stock became docile. He also dequeened an angry stock and united it to a docile one. Within a day the bees were docile. He caged a queen from an aggressive stock and placed it in a queenright docile stock. The stock immediately became aggressive and continued so until the cage was removed. Some time ago there was a thread on how to kill an aggressive stock. It may not always be the fault of the queen but the experiments above are fairly conclusive. Clearly the queens were at fault and it would be wrong to detroy a colony for the sake of one bee. I have never found much difficulty in finding the queen in an aggressive colony. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:20:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > I had not said synthetic pesticides *never* work. To cite one > case of apparent efficacy is hardly to comment at all on the fact that > there have been many flops which is the point I was registering (not > conceded by the chemofan, but well documented and indeed notorious > amongst ecologists). Likewise, Robert, flops occur in IPM programs that rely heavily on biological control agents. In a college course I took in biocontrol the professor stated about 90% of control attempts are failures. Recently on the entomol-l list, Bill Warner offered the following instructive comments on the curious lack of regulatory scrutiny in testing and measuring the effects of biocontrol agents on non-target organisms: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Biocontrol agents are also pesticides under the definition of the word, and many definitely have non-target consequences. BUT, chemicals do not reproduce themselves, increase their range and levels in the environment and potentially wipe out non-targets such as the introduced chalcidoid/Pacific Island moth scenario or mongoose/Hawaiian bird scenario (there are obviously other potential explanations (human hunting, rats, habitat destruction) for the latter)." "The point remains, however; introducing any item that self replicates should be prefaced by VERY intensive testing to assure lack of non-target effects. Problems with early pesticides gave rise to the intense regulatory situation we have now. Biocontrol agents have been espoused by many of those in the biocontrol business (I include many--if not most--of the researchers along with the insectaries here) as being benign; a paradigm which history has proven is not true! TO THIS DAY there are species being released without any understanding of effects on non-targets, only measures of effect on the intended targets. ALL pesticides (including biocontrol agents) deserve scrutiny." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:46:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: AHPA Meeting Notes and Southern Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just returned from the AHPA convention -- and further adventures -- and I offer my notes to the group. Halfway through the AHPA meeting I realised that things were going in one ear and out the other, so I started taking notes. Here are my rough notes from the AHPA meeting cut & pasted from my Palm. Questions welcome: --- Dr. Jay Evans Beltsville Beetles AFB Genes Gene expression & identify queen characteristics Dr. Jose Yilla - Baton Rouge TM susceptibility common in USA Commercial bees. Some suppliers are much better than others. Breeders should be testing their queen mothers Patti Elzen-Westlaco -Apistan & Formic promising -Coumaphos resistance confirmed in Fla with David Westervelt -SHB problems are much worse in hives treated with grease patties -Planning to work more on nutrition John Harbo -30 pupae purple eye - count reproductive mites calc %-described on a colony level -res x ctrl are 1/2 way between res & ctrl with some variation -Trait appears to be additive -Is SMR related to poor brood production? 100% SMR have poor brood. But 1st& subsequent crosses seem OK. 75% is OK. 70% SMR seems ideal. -SMR takes 6 weeks to show up in a colony after new queen begins work. Jeff Harris -Russian crosses with other stock may not retain R characteristics Tom Rinderer Russian queens have good tracheal & varroa resistance. Can go years w/o treatment Gordon Wardell -co-operative research -Naturally Occuring Products -oil of origano in a slow release strip 94% drop over 6 wks -Several oils at 1% levels can prevent CB Eric Erickson -Tucson bringing out several mite control products in the next few years -Emphasis on IPM -Varroa natural tolerance is masked by chemicals -Very low Varroa counts in Leonard's colonies -Cross contamination from non-tolerant neighbouring hives both managed & feral -Susceptibility to varroa is declining rapidly -Natural products will help in an IPM -New research direction. Partnerships with technical small businesses -Tucson will not close for the foreseeable future --- Following the AHPA meeting we were invited to drop by Lusbys place and we spent a few fascinating days there. We also attended a Southern Arizona Bee meeting and got a chance to meet several more BEE-L members. I've posted some pictures at http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick and in my diary. I'm working on fleshing this all out on my diary site (below). It may take a while to complete. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature Jim, I see what you mean. I was thinking that I need to have the feedback from the drone pupae itself. I guess you are right, one can figure out a correlation between the actual brood temp and the the bi-metal thermostat and perhaps fiddle with thickness of the wire on the bi-metal (in case that it shuts off before the drone pupae are cooked or, conversely, too late) -- providing that the bi-metal can be custom-made perhaps. perhaps there could even be sensors that "read" out how much brood is already sealed inside the hive on this frame. I remember Tom Webster used to have a royal jelly monitor inside queen cells that can assess the quantity of food with some electric terminals... Zachary http://www.mitezapper.com