From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:03:52 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAA748F51 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SD3obs011300 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:03:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:03:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0201D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 290318 Lines: 6163 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said: > I am not sure what "clinical infection" means in terms of when they > destroy a colony. "Clinical", meaning AFB detected, versus "sub-clinical", meaning not detected, but still possibly infected. > I think we are talking apples and oranges when we bring in New Zealand > as an example since we are not doing much of what they have in effect. Which is my point. Any program to deal with diseases or pests must be coordinated, with all beekeepers making commitments to serve to general good. > You can do everything correct as they do it in NZ, and be zapped by a > fellow beekeeper here in the US. I have heard this complaint often. It seems a defeatist outlook, since it assumes that people will not act in their own best interest, and cooperate when the advantages of cooperation are made clear. > We just do not have the program they have there. Exactly. We need one if we want to get serious. I submit that each state needs to coordinate within its own borders as a start, and the first step would be to contact beekeepers that are not attending meetings. The good news is that making such a list is easy, if the catalog houses and local supply dealers are willing to cooperate. It is assumed that it would be very difficult to keep bees without buying some sort of supplies every so often. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:37:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Cornick Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/02 7:27:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sidpull@CS.COM writes: > I have never found much difficulty in finding the > queen in an aggressive colony. Sounds to me like you never found an aggressive colony. 200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hanging so thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, 20 stings where the veil touched my neck, about an acre or so where anything that moved got dive bombed. Find anything in that. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of 17 hives, many replaced last spring due to winter losses, I had two occurrences of agressive hives. In both cases, people nearby were being stung, not only those who approached the hive itself. In one case there were four colonies in the bee yard, on a farm. Field workers (not close to the hive) were being stung. One of the four hives exhibited a strong "flash back" of bees when I inserted a gloved hand, and I moved that hive. The problem vanished. I also moved the other hive. Requeening was tough becuause this was mid-summer and both hives were so full of bees that I after moving them I had to separate the brood boxes, moving them 50 feet from the supers, and leaving empty brood boxes under the supers. The field bees returned to the colony with the now empty brood boxes, while the original brood boxes (now with many fewer bees) gave me a chance to find the queen and requeen. A week or so later I re-combined the brood box under the original hive. Both hives exhibited normal behavior into the fall. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" James suggests I read the article on New Zealand beekeeping. From the article: >Beekeepers in New Zealand eliminate AFB by using routine and >constant AFB inspection, managing their beehives in such a way that >they reduce the spread of AFB, and destroying colonies that are >found to have clinical infections of the disease. > >(clinical AFB hives are hives showing *visual* symptoms) > >The most important point the figures illustrate, however, is that it >is possible using search and destroy inspections, hive and apiary >quarantines, and beehive component sterilisation, to successfully >eradicate the disease Their program uses no drugs, but requires destruction of colonies showing visible symptoms. All colonies in the country must be registered, all beekeepers must comply. That would be impossible in this country. Beekeepers don't want it, the government doesn't want to do it, and there is no money for it. PB -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "Aggressive" Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sidpull@CS.COM wrote: > > Aggression is not always the fault of the queen. Sid, Glad to see you again. You might recall I used your excellent comments on tanging in our newsletter. I have found that most of the aggression I have with my bees is not the queen but outside influences. (I had one aggressive hive that was the fault of the queen, this is just my experience and not the norm. A single data point in the pixillated world of beekeeping.) Usually the aggression is caused by animals, especially skunks, visiting the hives at night. The next day the bees are very short tempered. It took me a while to add the one and two, since there was no noticeable evidence of the visit until, after a rain, I saw the paw prints on the front of the hive. I put chicken wire in front of it and problem solved. Bees calmed down quickly. Raccoons also caused problems when I used entrance feeders (when I first started beekeeping they were part of the equipment I purchased with the hives. Terrible invention. They, by themselves, can encourage robbing and aggression.). The raccoons would visit the hive and sample the nice treats I left out for them. Bees were not too happy. And then there is the beekeeper...., probably the worst of all the animals in their treatment of the colonies. I would have stung anyone who treated me the way I treated my bees when I first started. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:51:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <200201212049.g0LKnih11665@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 3:18 -0500 1/21/02, James Fischer wrote: > > At one time AFB infection rates were very high and the >> rate was brought down by burning. > >So, let me get this straight... > >1) One detects AFB >2) One may only detect a single cell showing symptoms. >3) Even if the hive is otherwise doing fine, one burns it. >4) One thereby destroys what would otherwise be a > contributor to a strain of AFB-resistant (or tolerant) bees. > >> Then beekeepers switched to medicating, which some say >> merely covers up the symptoms. > >It certainly does not kill dormant spores, but only people who >slept through biology in middle school would expect any different. > >While dormant spores are very, very hard to kill, one will soon be >able to start each season with an absolute assurance of AFB-free >equipment, as soon as we find a US Postal Service manager who >is a beekeeper, or environmentally oriented. James, you refer to the New Zealand paper, but what you are saying is exactly the opposite of their conclusions. They conclude using drugs is a mistake, and do not permit it. You say AFB can be cleaned up with drugs (I am not arguing the point, merely stating that you diverge here). You saying burning is a witch-hunt, but destruction of infected colonies (visibly infected, read: one cell or more) is the centerpiece of their control program. They do not talk AT ALL about retaining so called disease tolerant hives. This should NOT by the average beekeeper. When I worked Southern California in the 1980s the infection rate was around 5%. Everybody medicated. Nobody talked about getting rid of AFB, just keeping it down. Now that TM no longer can be depended upon there are two roads: new drugs or destroying infected hives. The new recommendation with drugs is to NOT use them as prevention, only for treatment. (Again, illegal in many states). PB -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:39:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cal French Subject: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201220500.g0M50Nh25325@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here at my little farm in the coastal mountains of central California, I try to use Organic and IPM methods. From reading various publications, I find that I can spray dormant fruit and nut trees with copper or lime sulfur and still qualify to sell the fruits and nuts as organic. However, I cannot use Roundup under the trees to control weeds or poisoned bait to kill gophers and ground squirrels. "Chemicals" is not a particularly useful word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB under control Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > James, you refer to the New Zealand paper, but what you are saying is > exactly the opposite of their conclusions. Nope, I agree with their analysis of how AFB is spread, and I agree with both their suggested changes to beekeeping practices that tend to spread AFB and their coordinated program. I do not agree with burning colonies in any but the worst cases, as would any rational person who understands how AFB is spread by beekeepers more often than by any other method. > They conclude using drugs is a mistake, and do not permit it. They decided up front to forego drugs. They did no study, they have no facts, they simply made a choice. No one's perfect. In my view, they are wrong on burning, but at least they have an actual plan. > You saying burning is a witch-hunt, but destruction of infected > colonies (visibly infected, read: one cell or more) is the > centerpiece of their control program. I would suggest that their suggested changes to practices that spread AFB are much more important than their specific choice between treatment and burning. Recall that, at the outset, they decided that they did not want to use drugs, so they were left with only burning. When the only tool you have is fire, everything starts to look like kindling. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:22:35 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201221815.g0MIFfh15867@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I would suggest that their suggested changes to practices that > spread AFB are much more important than their specific choice > between treatment and burning. Recall that, at the outset, they > decided that they did not want to use drugs, so they were left with > only burning. When the only tool you have is fire, everything starts to > look like kindling. My guess from this, and your previous posts, is that burning low clinical infections (visible signs of AFB i.e. one or two cells etc.) is destroying potential stock that may have some AFB resistance (by whatever mechanism) and thereby the loss of this genetic material will be detrimental in the reduction of AFB. I think in principle this is probably correct. But the experience here in New Zealand shows that this *does not matter*. The program, if applied effectively, actually *eliminates* clinical AFB - in a reasonably short time i.e. around 5 years. And here I am talking about the experience of multi thousand hive operations, one at least that was built on the purchase of AFB riddled outfits. The one most important Principle of the program is to never remove any material (honey, brood, bees etc.) from a beehive without inspecting for AFB. This $costs$ for the labour to do this. If endemic AFB levels are below 0.5% it may not be worth the effort. If levels are 5% and above, it is definitely worth it. The burnt hives are not a great cost. The greatest cost (over the term of AFB elimination) is the labour cost to carry out THE Principle! There is therefore obviously an economic equilibrium of inspection costs vs. AFB levels - and some beekeepers may decide to apply this. However the long term goal of elimination is the payback of signicantly reduced inspection costs, drug costs, market access costs etc. once an outfit is disease free for a reasonable period of time. e.g. 3-4 years or so. The insistance of lack of drug use is important in the program. If you are masking AFB with drug use, much valuable time spent looking for AFB is wasted because clinical symptoms are supressed. Your goal is actually to find and remove all material with a Minimum Infective Dose of AFB spores from your outfit. If you don't find clinical symptoms, and therefore OK the removal of material with greater than the MID from the hive, you have done so in error and therefore will end up with AFB again somewhere else. The one place where this is most important is in the inspection at honey removal. Supers that come from an infected colony end up going back on to clean colonies next year and may infect several colonies depending on how the frames are mixed up in the extracting plant. At this stage the cause and effect of AFB is impossible to trace. This is the single most important source of those odd hives that pop up mysteriously with AFB for no known reason. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201221747.g0MHlch14439@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:39 AM 1/22/02 -0800, you wrote: >kill gophers and ground squirrels. "Chemicals" is not a particularly useful >word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. Organic is a poor choice as well. While some compounds aren't organic (copper sulfate for example), many of the pesticides are organic compounds. My roommate in college (a chemistry major) found a can of "chemical free" beans in the supermarket. (Vacuum in a can anybody?), At least the "fat free" bottle of water was technically correct. The efforts to genetically engineer crops that make their own toxins will likely muddy the water further. Often times the real meaning and the public perception, FDA and the government's definition of a word are often totally different things. Are there any written rules to what you can call Organic Honey? Obviously other livestock rules don't apply well to bees. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AHPA Meeting Notes and Southern Arizona In-Reply-To: <200201220212.g0M2Cth19865@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Do you have any further details on some of the topics at the convention? Some of them look quite interesting. Most notably: -SHB problems are much worse in hives treated with grease patties I know of no one in our area of ohio that has SHB, but it has been found in Ohio, so this could be of great concern as many beekeepers in my area use grease or oil patties. Some of the alternate treatments sound interesting as well (oil of origano etc.) -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:07:03 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201221747.g0MHlch14446@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"Chemicals" is not a particularly useful >word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. oh, so true. It is a constant embarrassment to serious scientific advocates of organic agriculture that many of our allies don't know what the word 'chemical' means. The serviceable term is 'synthetic chemical', tho' that too runs into minor problems. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <01C1A346.7945A490.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 1/22/02 01:12 PM, you wrote: >I do not agree with burning colonies in any but the worst cases, >as would any rational person who understands how AFB is spread >by beekeepers more often than by any other method. >They decided up front to forego drugs. They did no study, they >have no facts, they simply made a choice. You are commending the New Zealand approach on the one hand and ridiculing it on the other. "They have no facts, they simply made a choice." In other words, where they agree with you, they are right. Where they disagree with you, they are wrong. Where is your study, where are your facts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:54:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: "Aggressive" Bees In-Reply-To: <200201221418.g0MEIDh04732@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200201221418.g0MEIDh04732@listserv.albany.edu>, Bill Truesdell writes >Usually the aggression is caused by animals, especially skunks, visiting >the hives at night. The next day the bees are very short tempered. It >took me a while to add the one and two, since there was no noticeable >evidence of the visit until, after a rain, I saw the paw prints on the >front of the hive. I put chicken wire in front of it and problem solved. >Bees calmed down quickly. I wonder if it is a ferret that make the 4 end hives (in a double row 4x2) bad tempered. The owner of the garden keeps ferrets and lost one (it ran past me several times the night it got out with its female, who stayed) and I wonder if it keeps coming back? (A ferret is a bit like a mink). -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are commending the New Zealand approach on the one hand and ridiculing > it on the other. "They have no facts, they simply made a choice." In other > words, where they agree with you, they are right. Where they disagree with > you, they are wrong. Well, they are partly right and they are partly wrong. That's why. > Where is your study, where are your facts? There is far more science on Jim's side than on the NZ side. The NZ approach is based on pseudo-science and wishful thinking backed up by an unique situation, good luck and a draconian regime. Resistance -- or at least reduction in susceptibility of bee stocks will have to be an important part of any US effort due to the migratory nature of the business and the independant and non-co-operative nature of many US beekeepers. Each country is different. what works in NZ could be folly in many other areas. Moreover the flow patterns in some regions make inspection at time of honey removal extremely unpleasant and awkward, if not impossible. Matching supers to hives may be paractical in some places, but not feasible in others. The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution when compared to other possibilities for other countries. B. Haver ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > When I worked Southern California in the 1980s the infection rate was > around 5%. Everybody medicated. Nobody talked about getting rid of > AFB, just keeping it down. Now that TM no longer can be depended upon > there are two roads: new drugs or destroying infected hives. The new > recommendation with drugs is to NOT use them as prevention, only for > treatment. (Again, illegal in many states). Been following your discussions. Isn't AFB spores in all (most) colonies, laying there dormant(to some degree)? According to the law and with TM resistant AFB won't there soon be large bonfires unless a new drug is to be used(actually should see lots of smoke and ash already)? Won't that new drug just become resistant too? I am for the no drug approach. Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? Infected frames (wood is destroyed) and wax processed(wax press) as mentioned in Hive and the Honeybee which destroys AFB spores. Maybe its time to get laws changed? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" from APIS Volume 18, Number 1, January 2000 : Mr. Laurence Cutts of the Division of Plant Industry's Apiary Bureau (Florida) is burning more colonies that have become symptomatic than in past years. Many of these have been treated with antibiotic apparently to little avail. Tests at both the Florida and Federal Beekeeping Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland have confirmed what appears to be a growing tolerance by the causative organism (Paenibacillus larvae larvae) for the only currently labeled antibiotic, Terramycin. This should be no surprise. It parallels what is happening in other livestock industries, as well as humans, signaling that the era of antibiotics as a wonder drug may be drawing to a close. The good news is that Dr. H. Shimanuki of the Beltsville Bee Laboratory sees a new era dawning such that we can expect to see advances made in the materials and methods available for detection, prevention and control of AFB. The bad news is that this may take some time, and those beekeepers having the problem now could be ill-equipped to deal with it. One of the reasons for this is that many are not familiar with the disease's etiology and detection. These have taken low priority in the face of 40 years of effective masking by Terramycin. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bee law in Pennsylvania allows for treatment of diseased colonies at the discretion of the inspector. An inspector who finds AFB will evaluate the situation and explain all the possible alternatives to the beekeeper, who will then decide how to treat the disease. If the colony is weak or heavily infested, the only alternative is to kill the bees and burn the frames and combs. If the disease is diagnosed in its early stages and the colony is strong, it may be treated with terramycin. A diseased colony treated with terramycin should be considered contaminated with spores forever and should be treated preventatively with terramycin indefinitely. A colony is not cleansed of AFB after treating for a year, 2 years or even 5 years. If a colony has had AFB and the terramycin treatment is discontinued the disease will come back. Terramycin (oxytetracycline) is the only drug approved for use against American Foul Brood. When present in the food given to susceptible larvae this antibiotic is effective in preventing germination of AFB spores. The bees are then able to develop and mature normally. Terramycin will not kill the spores and is not a means for sterilizing either the bees or the equipment. If a colony contains AFB spores and is maintained in a healthy condition through treatment with terramycin, the disease will recur when the drug treatment is discontinued. http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Agriculture/bureaus/plant_industry/apiary/apiary_pests.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFB is regulated by the Georgia Department of Agriculture, and infected colonies are normally burned by state inspectors. As state budgets allow, beekeepers may be indemnified for these losses. The spores of the AFB bacterium are extremely persistent in contaminated comb and hive parts. Although resistant bee colonies may clean up visible signs of infestation, it is more typical for AFB to be incurable and essentially doom the colony. Beekeepers should never maintain hospital yards in which they group AFB colonies together in isolation. Such yards simply serve as reservoirs of disease that will serve to contaminate apiaries for miles around. It is equally inadvisable to treat infected colonies with Terramycin. The antibiotic will simply obscure visible signs of the disease, but the symptoms will rapidly recur once the antibiotic is removed. http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/American_Foulbrood.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:09:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? > Infected frames (wood is destroyed) and wax processed > (wax press) as mentioned in Hive and the Honeybee > which destroys AFB spores. I'm glad Clay mentioned this. It's been some time since I read the NZ paper (booklet), but my recollection is that the bees can be shaken from infected wquipment into clean equipment (new frames with foundation) thereby saving the stock. The bees must be confined for two days to consume any honey that may be in their systems. Thereafter, any traces of AFB will be pooped out of the hive on cleansing flights. However, saving such stock actually is counterproductive in that it will maintain stock that has proven to be susceptible to AFB infection. Perhaps requeening should be part of the procedure. > Maybe its time to get laws changed? Absolutely! First on my list would be to have the laws acknowledge that irradiating equipment kills AFB bacteria and spores. Aaron Morris - thinking nuked equipment is preferable to ashes! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:55 -0700 1/22/02, BEEHAVER wrote: >There is far more science on Jim's side than on the NZ side. Would you care to cite? So far, Jim only referred to the New Zealand study, which does not support his assertions. Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better on their own. No scientist would support this. If you read over what I have said, I have made no personal recommendations. Follow state laws. >Moreover the flow patterns in some regions make inspection at time of honey >removal extremely unpleasant and awkward, if not impossible. Matching >supers to hives may be paractical in some places, but not feasible in >others. Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on the super with a crayon. >The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution >when compared to other possibilities for other countries. Just what are the possibilities you referring to? How about some specifics? PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Burning Infected Equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tim Arheit wrote: > Not to mention open air burning is illegal in many places, especially > those hives containing plastic. > > See http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/facts/openburn.html for a summary > of ohio's burning laws... Well, there IS an out for burning infected hive equipment in Ohio's laws. > Permitted burning includes: > ... > smudge pots and SIMILAR OCCUPATIONAL NEEDS; .... (Emphasis is mine). In New York State, the law states that a beekeeper MUST burn AFB infected equipment. Hence, I can have a bonfire to burn infected equipment and not be in violation of open burning regulations. Having said that, I would first notify my local Volunteer Fire Department and local village officials of my intent to burn to avoid the fire trucks showing up at my bonfire. > ... burning plastic simply can't be done anywhere. Burning plastic remains a tough issue. One simply should not open burn plastic - the fumes are toxic. Wrestling with that conflict in New York, the state agriculture department has recommended working with local land fill operators to make sure that contaminated plastic equipment is burried upon delivery to the land fill (yeah, right!). So one department is recommending burying infected plastic equipment (even though the laws insist on burning), while other state departments are in the process of closing all landfills in the state. > Local ordinances may be more strict. Very true. I made a point to represent burning requirements (similar occupational needs) to my village board when they adopted a very strict open burning law. A loophole was put into the local ordinance to allow burning as required by state laws. The issue of burning plastic still remains. Plastic can be irradiated, but New York doesn't recognize that. New York says burn, immediately, in the location in which the infection occurs. The nearest irradiation facility to me is in Massachusetts. New York forbids moving infected equipment out of the apiary in which it's located, say nothing of transporting it across state lines. > Has anyone experimented with anything that might kill the spores > such as bleach solution that will kill the anthrax spores? Again, irradiation works. The NZ paper says bleach works. But again, at least in New York, the ONLY thing that is LEGISLATED is burning. Aaron Morris - thinking it is indeed time to bring the laws in line with reality. I expect that to happen soon after New York State legislators pass a budget on time! For those out of state, New York has NOT passed a budget on time in 17 years. It's a long-standing NY joke. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201231219.g0NCJTh24580@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:09 AM 1/23/02 -0500, you wrote: > > Maybe its time to get laws changed? >Absolutely! First on my list would be to have the laws acknowledge that >irradiating equipment kills AFB bacteria and spores. Not to mention open air burning is illegal in many places, especially those hives containing plastic. See http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/facts/openburn.html for a summary of ohio's burning laws. The way I read it you could only burn outside restricted areas, you may not move the waste to another site to burn it, and burning plastic simply can't be done anywhere. Local ordinances may be more strict. Has anyone experimented with anything that might kill the spores such as bleach solution that will kill the anthrax spores? Of course it's most likely toxic to the bees, but what I'm looking for is proper (legal) disposal and possible salvage of the equipment. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:23:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201230500.g0N501h16809@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James Fischer wrote: > "It seems a defeatist outlook, since it assumes that people will not act in their own best interest, and cooperate when the advantages of cooperation are made clear."< I think that people can generally be defeatists and act like defeatists by nature or previous history/ tradition, and also they will often act against their own best interest - at least it is so in my country. One person cannot go against tradition, habits - you can just go alone with them, and only you can is to try to gave slate different direction - if you care for your own best interest. The programs which are dealing with diseases are always programs ABOUT coordination - but as we fill in beekeeping - they are never good enough. Or... What is success of a such program? I suppose curing, eliminating the disease! What happens when you cured it? Than there isn't any reasons any more to REALLY keep up the program and spend money and to straighten coordination efforts... After that... Here is illustration: One of my friends, with whom I doesn't meet very often now, has sad to me last time when we met, that he has discovered in his house top that his grandfather was been beekeeper and he will gave that old equipment to his relative because he had started last year with beekeeping by caching one swarm... How many new beehavers are come in beekeeping on this way every year, or how many are not beekeepers any more every year (not telling anyone), and also how many experienced beekeepers forgot to gave instructions to newcomers to disinfect the equipment at first - like I forget to tell my friend? About such programs, I wonder if there is anybody on this List from Israel, because I have heard that they had very consistent programs (at list for varroa treatments) - did they had some programs for AFB and what has happens in long therm? (Short therm success is expected) My conclusion (at present!) is that any program which will include a lot of effort, lot of money and lot of time, and also which will NOT have specially developed approach (depending highly of tradition/habits) has no chance to success longer time. Such a program must have clear tactic for what to do AFTER eventual first success. ...and seems that such programs always look different (better) from outside than from inside. Clay, under: "AFB under control", wrote: > Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? Infected frames (wood is destroyed)...< I personally advocate this old method, but it is suitable only for beekeepers with small number of colonies. This can be (and nas been proved that this is true) very safe and effective, especially if some new knowledge can be included: - establishing quarantine places/apiaries (if beekeeping operation is bigger), - establishing colonies-isolators for frames with brood (if there is many infected colonies), - disinfecting all equipment with hot 2 - 4% solution of NaOH (word in English?) (no need to burn frames), - replacing the queens and replacing the honey (you shake bees on clean equipment and gave a sugar syrup extensively (when you can administer antibiotic - first and last time) until bees build up all frames from foundation and made reserves od capped honey - usually maximum 3 weeks) - eventually reinforcing the colonies with bees from colonies-isolators It is also VERY important to do the same operation completely to all beehives in apiary in which you find hive with clinical AFB, because concentration of spores in them can be in critical levels..., or you can do the same if AFB was found at your neighbour - as preventive measure. This is also very stressful job and sometimes can be done only just before evenings on limited numbers of bee colonies for that day. ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Barta Subject: Re: IPM and Organic On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:32:52 -0500, Tim Arheit wrote: >Are there any written rules to what you can call Organic Honey? Obviously >other livestock rules don't apply well to bees. > >-Tim For the U.S., the draft standards are available at http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/nop2000/nosb%20recommedations/Livestock%20recomm end/apicl-finldrft.htm or (if that URL is daunting) through the USDA Ag Marketing Service National Organic Program web site. Some key points that I've seen: In addition to locating the hives on organic land, the organic apiculture plan must: (1) Contain a map of the forage zone which shows the location of the hives, the location of organic and wild land, and the location of all non-organic areas; (2) Describe the quantity of organic and/or wild forage to be provided per colony, including the type or types of forage, approximate bloom period, forage density, competing species density, honeybee colony density, colony health, colony strength, topography, and climatic conditions; (3) Describe the water sources available in the forage zone; (4) List all sanitary landfills, incinerators, sewage treatment facilities, power plants, golf courses, towns or cities, land to which prohibited materials are applied, and all other sources of potential contamination located in the forage zone; and so on. I'm not sure how to estimate some of these.... Adrian Barta Mt. Horeb, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would you care to cite? No. This topic has been covered in detail on this list in the past, and after you have read the archives, if you have a specific question, perhaps Jim or someone else will take the time to explain more. > No scientist would support this. I guess Steve Taber is not a scientist then. Nor is Marla Spivak. I can name more who have recommended exactly this (or a close variation) in writing or a public lecture. Moreover many beekeepers have practised this with reasonable success, and no, I am not going to name names. The keys are resistant stock, close observation, good understanding, and in some cases some chemical assistance or a change of queen or stock, depending on the object in mind and the environment. This is a really complex topic and, as always there are some who love simplistic solutions, especially if they involve destroying things -- and especially if those things belong to others. This is 2002, and there are many new alternatives. Radiation works and does a lot of good besides just kill AFB. The new drugs, Tylosin and Lincomycin can be used legally in the US with the approval of any local vet (depending on the state jurisdiction). New communication methods and new science are pushing back the ignorance that was a main cause of the original and continuing AFB problems in North America. There is a good chance that the honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. Moreover it is now easy to analyse bees for AFB resistance (there are several factors to look for) and select, although sadly, breeders are not putting their hearts into this and won't until pushed by their customers -- or regulators. Recent analysis has shown there is a good reservoir of reasonably resistant bees -- perhaps better described as less susceptible -- in North American stock. If only the most susceptible were identified and eliminated, the disease would seldom be seen. This may come about in the next decade. There are claims also that using stock that is suited to 4.9 cell size seems to allow exactly this let-alone approach. A good friend of mine has observed this latter effect in action, but reserves judgement. > Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be > marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the > supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know > which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little > trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on > the super with a crayon. I gather, then, you have never worked in a commercial outfit that runs hives up and down across distances greater than the breadth or length of NZ and sometimes hires illerate or semi-literate labour, and uses custom exctracting facilities or swaps equipment, or puts hives into that 500-mile-long beeyard they call California almond pollination? > >The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution > >when compared to other possibilities for other countries. > > Just what are the possibilities you referring to? How about some specifics? Read the archives. B. Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Disease Resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" quotes: >That means the bees are healthy and are able to keep the AFB under control. >Resistance?? There are three beekeepers in NM who do not treat for AFB that >I know of . We just do not treat. When I find some AFB on a comb I take it >out and mark that hive to check it a week or so later. >resistance strains of bees are popping up here and there. >burning low clinical infections (visible signs of AFB i.e. one or >two cells etc.) is destroying potential stock that may have some AFB >resistance >Resistance -- or at least reduction in susceptibility of bee stocks >will have to be an important part of any US effort due to the >migratory nature of the business and the independant and >non-co-operative nature of many US beekeepers. Many people have referred to AFB resistance or tolerance in bees. I already cited studies done on this very thing in the 30s. Breeding for resistance is a serious subject and not simply a matter of looking at a colony and saying, "this one ain't dead yet, must be resistant." There are a lot of people out there who have contempt for science and believe they "know better" than the experts. Good luck! From "The Genetic Basis of Disease Resistance", by Robert Page and Ernesto Guzman-Novoa (in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" edited by Roger Morse and Kim Flottum, 1997): >Expectations should be realistic. The elimination of disease >problems through selective breeding is not a realistic objective. >Instead, a reduction in incidence or a reduction of the need to >treat chemically may be attainable; the complete elimination of the >need to treat chemically is not. > >Selection is an ongoing process that is necessary to produce and >maintain resistant stocks. Selective progress will begin to >deteriorate as soon as the selection on the population is relaxed. > >Numerous unsubstantiated claims of disease-resistant stocks are >found in the bee journals. The first successful breeding program for >resistance to AFB was implemented in September 1934 by O. W. Park, >et al. They successfully developed and maintained resistant stock >for 15 years. > >Selective breeding programs will not succeed without economic >incentives. Current prices paid for queens produced in the US will >not support the added expense of industry driven breeding programs. >Institutional programs such as the USDA's have never succeeded, >partly because of the failure of the bee industry to adopt the >stocks they produced. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:15:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Borst makes an excellent point when he quotes: > >Selection is an ongoing process that is necessary to produce and > >maintain resistant stocks. Selective progress will begin to > >deteriorate as soon as the selection on the population is relaxed. It has already been pointed out that Tabor and Spivak claim to have isolated stock resistant to AFB. The late Roger Morse also claimed to have done so, and I have descendants of Roger's lines. But as Peter pointed out, I have not maintained that stock and can make no more of a claim than at one time I purchased a few queens that were claimed to have been descendant's of Roger's AFB resistant stock. I cannot and will not claim to have AFB resistant bees. First, I made no effort to keep the line, and second, I treat my bees for AFB. Once on the merry-go-around, it's hard to get off. Shim recommends getting off the merry-go-around a yard at a time. He states if you've been treating regularly, wean yourself a yard at a time, keeping diligent watch for any signs of AFB is the yard(s) you stop treating. Cull any equipment where AFB emerges. I have not followed Dr. Shimanuki's recommendations. The quote Peter offered is also the point I've been making about SMR bees. Different banes (AFB vs. Varroa d.) but same issue. The foe CAN be defeated through selective breeding. But the isolated strain of bee that overcomes the bane is only good for the life of THAT queen. Subsequent generations require reassessment to see if the desired trait (resistance to the bane du jour) has been passed on to the daughter. If so, all is well. If not, cull the queen and try again. And if no reassessment is done, all bets are off. And it is the continual assessment/reassessment step that dooms most (all?) "better bees through better breeding" programs. Few (if any) beekeepers will track that in their yards, and few breeders deliver queens from such a program. NO BREEDERS deliver queens from an assessment program at $15 a pop. $50 a pop for those guarantees does not seem out of line, eh? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Pesticide abuse/cotton boll weavel extermination, etc. (was: Re: IPM vs. Strips) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James Fischer" > Dave Green said: > > Please note that Paul Cherubini is not speaking as a beekeeper. He is an > > enthusiastic pesticide salesman. You can run a search of his past posts for > > more info. Need I say more? > James Fischer responded > Yes, you need to apologize to Mr. Cherubini and the list for tarring him with a > brushfull of argumentum ad hominem. I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with noting Mr. Cherubini's agenda. I grew up on a farm, and we were besieged with "enthusiastic pesticide salesmen." We bought it and used it, saw short term gains, but began to see long term losses. Later, I managed a fruit farm and the owner wisely told me, "Don't get your pesticide recommendations from pesticide salesmen." That was a good caution, but I eventually came to the conclusion that many of the supposedly impartial advisors, including the extension service, were also pesticide salesmen. The system linked them together so that even if one human link had doubts, once could not extricate oneself. The chemical companies got a lock on the whole system of pest control. It was lucrative. Only when problems became blatant and out of control, did they back off and seek alternatives. Malathion on cotton is one of these issues. The losses both of domestic honeybees and wild pollinators has so far been pretty easy to keep under wraps, so it can be ignored. A few bankrupt beekeepers, and some farmers who have had to quit with a variety of crops that need bees, and focus once again on corn and cotton monoculture, don't seen like an issue to the pesticide people or the extension system that they have bought. The more pesticides are used, the more they are needed. It is an endless circle, with an ever more sterile environment and ever increasing profits for pesticide manufacturers. The losses of pollinators from the use of malathion and other insecticides on cotton, or for mosquito control, been called to Mr. Chrubini's attention several times, without any change in his tune. If you haven't seen it, you can see one good example of (illegal but officially sanctioned) malathion use that killed pollinators at http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ I have never been 100% organic in my philosophy, but we have soaked our environment with a pervasive mix of pesticide that often come back to haunt us in unexpected ways. I have been extremely cautious in my own use. I had bees alongside the orchard throughout the season, and did not hurt them, because I was careful to comply with the label directions. Do you think the boll weevil extermination program complied with the bee protection label directions? Not a chance! (It should also be noted that there are some entomologists who believe that the boll weevil eradication program is taking credit for extermination by predatory fire ants. I don't know if this is true, but it's an interesting thought. I think fire ants have also damaged ground nesting solitary bees.) Here's an interesting current pesticide story, not directly related to bees, but a correlating example of widespread routine abuse of a pesticide and how it bites back. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134394100_compost22m0.html I don't know how some specific situations could be dealt with without pesticides, but "organic" is looking better every year that I observe. I'm already convinced that, if pesticide users were to become competent in understanding the pests, usage could be cut 90%. What I see is that there is now little incentive to do so, despite all the shibboleths of the industry. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:43:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: 4-H Project "Hive Tool" Kid Friendly! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to give a quick update on our 4-H project. With all the = snow this past weekend it was a good time for my daughter and I work on her = 4-H project. We updated Hive Tool project with new help information, more drop down selections, updated the IR print function, and added the ability to = use a=20 PDA with a scanner to allow scanning barcodes on hives. We also did = some other little changes to make it look prettier "as my daughter said." We = also created a emulator that simulates the Hive Tool program. This can be used to = show you how the program works without having a Palm Device although, the scanning = feature will not function on the emulator. The Hive Tool Program is for use with Palm Pilot type devices and will = only work if you have one to install it to. Palm type devices have a program called Palm Desktop that will recognize the extension of PRC and open a program called Hotsync. Hotsync will load The Hive Tool to your Palm Device. Once installed and selected for the first time the program will expand itself into a functioning program. If you don't have a palm device and but would like to see the program = you=20 can download the Hive Tool Emulator! We would also like to hear your comments about the program! The Hive Tool can be found at http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping=20 http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 0102 17:48:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: disease resistance I am hearing stories of big mid western outfits with 40% or more TM resistant AFB.That means some of this has been and will be here in the 500 mile bee yard referred to by Bhaver.So you had better believe other antibiotics will be used,because only a fool is going to burn thousands of hives to stop what is already unstoppable.How many hives were prevented from mite infestation by govt restrictions?Absolutely 0.So this is a management issue,not something that can be solved by regulation.Ok,Tm worked for 40 years in spite of all who said it was a time bomb.If Tylosin works for 40 more,why worry?Yes we should be breeding for hygeinic behavior(some are).But realistically,the hygeinic lines are going to always be crossing with lines that are being kept alive with antibiotics.Same with mite resistant lines.Unless the breeder does as Aarron suggests and does nonstop monitoring.Of course your stock will also be affecting your neighbors line of bees also,so some progress will be made. So,IMHO,it is Ok to keep your bees alive with whatever it takes,but at the same time look for and breed for those factors that keep the bees healthy without intervention,just in case the new AFB treatments DO NOT last 40 years. -Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am pleased to see the level of reason brought to this discussion by Jim Fischer and others. I agree with their thoughts that elimination of AFB is not desirable (even if possible), and that burning at the slightest sign of infection is an ignorant response. (The fact that it is legally required does not mean it is an appropriate approach.) Someone made the point that we need some level of AFB infection as it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be eliminated worldwide and we need the constant pressure on honeybee genetics to keep some level of resistance. I could not agree more. In fact, if NZ ever accomplishes their goal of elimination of AFB I believe it should make their queens considerably less attractive in the export markets. A related situation is the fact that while Tracheal Mites have never been found in Hawaii, queen breeders there import semen from Tracheal Mite resistant stock so that they can continue to sell queens to the mainland US. Good practice! Think about it...those of European, Asian and African decent used to have good resistance to what we call German Measles. For lots of good reasons a vaccine was developed, but the vaccine is short-lived. Today it is widely recognized that an outbreak will be a public health disaster, as German Measles resistance has been lost and most of the world's population is highly susceptable...and German Measles can kill! Same with Smallpox. I wasn't around (as a beekeeper), but my understanding of the reason AFB was such a disaster in the 1940's and 1950's is that the genetic stock in the US had little to no resistance due to a lack of prior exposure. (I understand no one knows where the disease came from, but it was unknown until the late 1800's.) I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the migratory operations." Not said is that if the inspectors adopted such an approach, the inspectors in the states from which the bees were coming would retaliate in kind...and the mess would be unbelievable. (The reason there is no active AFB is the prophylactic use of Terra.) Some beekeepers that I highly respect will strongly disagree with me, but I am inclined to think that inspection programs with inspectors paid by a government should be a thing of the past. Among the many reasons for my views are: 1. I don't believe that AFB any longer is an organism that may destroy beekeeping in the US. 2. I think the "average" beekeeper, whether commercial, hobbyist or sideliner, is far more educated and knowledgeable than her counterpart in the early part of this century. She is capable and will follow good beekeeping practices that are appropriately communicated. 3. We have means of communication among beekeepers and researchers that were largely not available early in this century. The resistance to Terra, will change beekeeping in significant ways. Probably all of them good. However, we need some AFB infection rate for our genetic stocks and IMHO we do not need inspectors to tell us we have infections! As taxpayers, our money can be better spent elsewhere...and perhaps via our own decisions rather than at government direction. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:20:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Thomas, <> I can asssure you, Thomas, that I have dealt with many difficult bees in my time.I started beekeeping in 1930, probably long before you were born. Last year, 2001, old age and the many ailments that go with it plus crippling arthritis requiring a hip replacement spelt the end of my beekeeping career. Now my beehouse and workshop stand empty and it grieves me. I am now resigned to being an armchair beekeeper. However, I shall not hang up my veil yet as I can still watch other beekeepers at work. <<200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hangingso thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, 20 stings where the veiltouched my neck,>> You were a brave man, Thomas, but unwise. The chances of finding the queen in a full strength aggressive stock are remote and not worth the pain. Although I am generally immune to a multiple stinging I would not risk it. When I look for the queen she is in a three or four comb nucleus box with a handful of young bees and can be found without difficulty. I won't bore the List with the details but if you are interested I can write to you privately.Regards. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:33:28 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: 'genome project' ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anon. wrote: > There is a good chance that the >honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. This idea holds v little if any promise for doing good to bees, and may lead to harm. The sequence of bases in an organism's genome is of v unclear significance and even less use. The implication that deviations from some assumed norm can be corrected and used against disease is poorly based and has led to no actual improvement in any sp yet. Moreover, what the 'sequencers' such as J Celera Venter produce is a simplified caricature of the sequence of bases _in vivo_. The leader of one such caper passed thru Auckland a couple y ago and gave a seminar. He said that what they sequence is copies made in systems which generated polymers with just the 4 bases G, C, A & T. They check back in the real DNA only 1/10,000th of those results. But it has been known for decades that real DNA contains bases other than The Big Four. This sequencing business is largely if not wholly a waste of money & talent. And of course, as I've previously pointed out, attempts to improve the honey bee by genetic manipulation could cause harm. Novel pathogens are a real possibility. Do bone up at www.psrast.org before you get swept away by this fad which combines rotten science with dishonest business. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I said: > Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be > marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the > supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know > which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little > trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on > the super with a crayon. At 7:58 -0700 1/23/02, BEEHAVER wrote: >I gather, then, you have never worked in a commercial outfit that runs hives >up and down across distances greater than the breadth or length of NZ and >sometimes hires illerate or semi-literate labour, and uses custom >exctracting facilities or swaps equipment, or puts hives into that >500-mile-long beeyard they call California almond pollination? Actually I know many California beekeepers, having lived there most of my life. I worked for at least six. I have seen all types, some excellent bee-men and some slobs. James said, and I agree, the central point of the New Zealand article was that beekeeping practices have to change. I think he would agree that the use of illiterate help and swapping equipment are hardly good beekeeping practices, regardless of how common. If you have time to take a super off a hive, and place it on a pallet or truck, I suppose you might have time to write a number on it. Maybe not. But if you don't have that much time, obviously you don't have time to inspect hives anyway, except dead ones (if that) and you no doubt have bees like Lloyd describes: >I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with >brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass >inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no >active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the >migratory operations." And if that is the actual state of commercial beekeeping today, then they will never be rid of drugs because they no doubt have millions of spores in every hive. They pass the inspections! What kind of inspection is that? But that isn't beekeeping anyway. *That* is bee having. Please remember, this list is called: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paula Franke Subject: Kentucky Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If this has been brought up already, my apologies for missing it. However, there is legislation proposed for this new session of the Kentucky General Assembly that I, personally as a small producer and farmers marketer, would like to see moved along and approved: HB 400 (BR 1644) - R. Wilkey, R. Thomas AN ACT relating to honey. Create a new section of KRS 217.005 to 217.215 to exempt persons who sell less than 500 gallons of honey in a year from being required to process the honey in a certified food processing establishment, or from being required to obtain a permit. Jan 17-introduced in House Jan 18-to Agriculture and Small Business (H) As I said, I'm a small producer, well under the 500 gal/yr, but I sell comb honey and have a regular consumer market that can't be satisfied with the small amount I have available. Other local producers are afraid to sell their honey due to current state law that prohibits selling honey unless it's "processed in a certified kitchen". I want to expand my beeyard for honey production (currently 5 hives), but the certified kitchen requirement just to cut the comb and package (and justification for that capital expense) it is beyond my financial means at this point in time. I do sterilize my packaging, just like I do for my own home canning. But my home kitchen can't be certified because it's a regular household ktichen. I just wanted Kentucky honey producers to be aware of this proposed legislation. Paula Franke Head of Happy Hollow Farm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:07:03 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > James said, and I agree, the central point of the New Zealand article > was that beekeeping practices have to change. On that we can agree. We all agree. In fact, we cannot stop the change. Why try? > I think he would agree > that the use of illiterate help and swapping equipment are hardly > good beekeeping practices, regardless of how common. Not everyone can get an academic job. Many just do what they can. That's America. > But if you don't have that much time, obviously you don't > have time to inspect hives anyway, except dead ones (if that) and you > no doubt have bees like Lloyd describes: That's a low one, and a bad guess to boot. Cute though. The trouble with beekeeping is that there are too many moving parts. What other business is this complex and requires so many different things to be done right? > >I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with > >brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass > >inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no > >active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the > >migratory operations." This is just plain bad, and if anything is creating resistance, this is it. Something has to change. Radiation??? > And if that is the actual state of commercial beekeeping today, then > they will never be rid of drugs because they no doubt have millions > of spores in every hive. They pass the inspections! What kind of > inspection is that? But that isn't beekeeping anyway. *That* is bee > having. Hey, hey, hey. I think that is directed my way :( But I agree with you. These guys (beekeepers and 'inspectors') give us Bee Havers a bad name. > Please remember, this list is called: Informed Discussion of > Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Well, that's true, and as it should be. I understand your difficulty and sympathize, but, if you get caught up on some of the new ideas out there and lighten up a bit, you needn't be embarrassed. The world keeps on a turning and the paradigms keep shifting. Stay young. b. hAVER ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:34:59 -0000 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann comments on the the most powerful tool yet devised my man, DNA sequencing, thus: 'this idea holds v little if any promise for doing good to bees and may lead to harm'. Furthermore, this would appear to inevitably lead to GM bees, a 'fad which combines rotten science with dishonest business'. OK then, here we are back to GM-bashing! (Or just plain trolling?) I thought that we were going to leave this topic alone. Genome sequencing has nothing to do with creating GM bees, and everything to do with understanding how bees work. It will not give sudden and profound understanding, but it will facilitate (along with other disciplines) a gradual but deep appreciation of how bees work. We are here to engage in 'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology'. Crucial to being informed is understanding the genes that hold the blueprint for bees, and eventually how they interact and how their proteins interact ... and how *they* interact with honeybee's pathogens, stresses and environment. Yet we shouldn't go there in case the information encourages big business (lured by the prospects of making enormous fortunes from the beekeeping industry?!) into making GM bees? I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it. Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:14:20 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? In-Reply-To: <200201240035.g0O0Zxh00913@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gavin Ramsay quoth: >Robt Mann comments on the the most powerful tool yet devised my man, DNA >sequencing This ranking of tool powers I'd not heard of; how is it done? > Furthermore, this would appear to inevitably >lead to GM bees Now contrast that with what he says soon afterward: >Genome sequencing has nothing to do with creating GM bees, and everything to >do with understanding how bees work. No-one except Gavin had suggested bee-DNA sequencing would "inevitably lead to GM bees", so he would appear to be contradicting himself. >we >shouldn't go there in case the information encourages big business (lured by >the prospects of making enormous fortunes from the beekeeping industry?!) >into making GM bees? This is an argument nobody had advanced; but thanx for mentioning it, because if we may judge by the behaviour of 'big business' so far wrt GM-plants, what Gavin says intending irony should be taken on the level. >I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they >do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it. This is the first constructive remark from Gavin - and one which I applaud. Secret science compounds the difficulties inherent in GM, so yes let's require from the start that any results be promptly pubd. The UK-USA 'public' human DNA sequencing has met this condition throughout; J Celera Venter pointedly did not. But, while I agree with Gavin that any bee DNA sequences should be published, I repeat there's no foreseeable good they could be used for. Pure science they might be (tho' junk, as I've pointed out - with dishonest oversimplification in the slogan The Big Four Rule OK); but applied ? not likely. > OK then, here we are back to GM-bashing! Who was ever 'GM-bashing'?? A few of us have offered reasoning, and suggested URLs; it is mischievous, and false, to call this 'GM-bashing'. And, I would suggest, provocative; therefore I wonder whether the moderators should let this sort of stuff onto our list. > (Or just plain trolling?) I won't be the only one unfamiliar with this jargon. Again I appeal for discussion *on the level* regarding GM. It is too important to be treated as just an arena for slang & loose abuse. Let us say what we mean. > I thought that we were going to leave this topic alone. Since when? Let's keep clear who initiated what. An anonymous contributor brought up the idea of sequencing bee-DNA. I responded by expressing an opinion on the implication that this could do us good. Sequencing is intimately, irretrievably tied up with splicing synthetic genes into living organisms, so bee-DNA sequencing deserves to be watched v carefully. I still see no reason to do it. BTW am I to believe that manners such as Gavin displayed from a British address have actually jumped the Atlantic, or is he just a transient in the Mother Country ;-} R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:02:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PB responded: > Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he > used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better > on their own. No scientist would support this. Reply; I did. You are required to take my work that I do not treat for any thing in my bee yards. Or you may come and see or take the work of out state bee inspector that there is no AFB in my hives. Scientific support or not there is three (3) beekeepers in NM who do not treat. One of those beekeepers is a past presedent of the New Mexico Beekeepers Assoication. I will get his permission to post his name and phone number so some who wish may call him to see if he in facts treats for AFB. Regards, Lee Deming, NM USA 505 544 6639 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:27:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who was ever 'GM-bashing'?? A few of us have offered reasoning, > and suggested URLs; it is mischievous, and false, to call this > 'GM-bashing'. And, I would suggest, provocative; therefore I wonder > whether the moderators should let this sort of stuff onto our list. We're moderators, not Mothers. We stop SPAM, viruses, binaries, most name calling and the blatant abuse, but otherwise, we figure everyone is adult (in the non-porno sense) and sit back to watch the heavies duke it out. > Let's keep clear who initiated what. Yes, but no matter the provocation, what *you* post under your name is what you post under your name. > BTW am I to believe that manners such as Gavin displayed from a > British address have actually jumped the Atlantic, or is he just a > transient in the Mother Country ;-} Brits... allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Before the exchanges between gene splicers and splicer dicers get too heated up, let me remind that BEE-L is for the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Seems to me that evey post following the initial comment has offered little if any substance. And the original statement that spraked these digressions, > Anon. wrote: > There is a good chance that the > honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. as near as I can tell is someone's opinion! Pointing towards the basis for this statement, preferable including documentation about the proposed "upcoming genome project" that has a good chance of being chosen would help us become more informed. Otherwise the original statement (unsubstantiated noise) and all subsequent discussions have been little more than rehashing old stuff. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? In-Reply-To: <200201232102.g0NL2Fh20272@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Where are the moderators and why wasn't this luddite dribble left in the >trash? If the human genome project has extra funds to spend and they choose to sequence the honey bee we all would gain research into our shared industry. However is not likely that they we spend the extra money on the honey bee as both the beef and pork industry are also lobbying heavily for the funds. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, This is the last thing I have to say about this, unless anyone has specific questions. The New Zealand approach to AFB is radical, but their goal is to *not have AFB*. Now, modern beekeeping started about 150 years ago, with Langstroth's frame. He saw immediately its usefulness in that combs could be removed, examined, and at times -- exchanged. Langstroth was also at the forefront of the effort to have *better* bees (based on the criteria of the time). Exchanging combs is crucial to all the beekeeping that I do: raising queens, making nucs, supering, etc. To not be able to exchange frames from one hive to another is my worst nightmare. Therefore, I run 200+ hives with a zero tolerance for AFB. I can exchange combs because *I don't have AFB*. Unless you are studying AFB, there is no justification for having it. Because commercial operators have tons of it, does not make it OK, a good thing, or acceptable. If someone told me my choice was between having no AFB and being able to freely exchange combs -- OR -- to stop exchanging combs altogether to avoid spreading AFB throughout my outfit, guess what? Peter Borst Ithaca NY 14850 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honeybee Genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin said "I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it." Hear, hear. There is at least one annual recurring multi-million dollar effort going on in the US that is focusing on the honeybee's nervous system. I suspect there is at least one additional similar project, and I know for certain that presumably-qualified researchers are trying to get support for still more. These efforts have already led to GM honeybees; albeit on a small scale. As anyone knows who has read Seeley's The Wisdom of the Hive, these animals we love and respect are truly remarkable. I have no doubt that their continued study will make life more comfortable (if not more meaningful) for humans and a better understanding of their genetic makeup will almost certainly be a critical part of these efforts. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann wrote: > Sequencing is > intimately, irretrievably tied up with splicing synthetic genes into living > organisms, so bee-DNA sequencing deserves to be watched v carefully. I > still see no reason to do it. Splicing came along well before any sequencing was even contemplated. And it was crude. Fired some natural, not synthetic, living material into leaves of plants and hope it took. I do not think that has changed much. The practitioners have no complete map of the dna but are operating on trial and error, using bacteria tags to see if it takes. Sequencing, especially the human gnome project and the protein project are aimed at understanding what does what so disease can be cured by drugs that counter the "bad" dna or protein. The same thing would happen with bees, if it were done. And that is unlikely, especially in the near future, because it is the protein sequences that are the key to bee disease, along with but not necessarily DNA. And they are a bear to decipher. And can't we all get along. This is getting personal and not directed at facts. Where are the moderators? Can I post something on FGMO to raise the entropy of the universe a bit more? ;^) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticide abuse/cotton boll weavel extermination, etc. (was: Re: IPM vs. Strips) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Green said: > There's nothing wrong with noting Mr. Cherubini's agenda. There is something very wrong with accusing someone of having an "agenda" (selling pesticides) when that person is pointing out a textbook example of an IPM program that has clearly reduced both the amount of pesticides used and the frequency with which they are used. Anything that reduces the amount of pesticides used is a good thing for bees and other pollinators, without qualification or exception. I'm not saying that pesticide vendors are suddenly the beekeeper's best friend, but I am saying that they want to make a buck, and have figured out that IPM is a good business. Most pesticides are cutthroat commodity products, and IPM support is a high-profit value-added service. The chemical companies know that they can make more profit selling less pesticides and more IPM consulting. Good for them! Good for farmers. Good for us. > ...I eventually came to the conclusion that many of the supposedly > impartial advisors, including the extension service, were also pesticide > salesmen. The system linked them together so that even if one human > link had doubts, once could not extricate oneself. The chemical companies > got a lock on the whole system of pest control. It was lucrative. I am not paranoid enough to see gunmen behind every grassy knoll, but even if one were to accept the statement above as an accurate historical analysis, it seems intuitively obvious that chemical company advocacy of participation in IPM programs would be proof of a major change in their posture, and a significant move away from the errors of the past. > Malathion on cotton is one of these issues. The losses both of domestic > honeybees and wild pollinators has so far been pretty easy to keep > under wraps, so it can be ignored. But what's in your closets? Can you put your wardrobe where your mouth is on this issue, or are you suffering from "cotton mouth"? :) Come to think of it, the internet uses lots of electricity, much of which is generated from dirty, high-sulfur coal. It follows that even participating in this mailing list has a negative impact on the climate, air quality, and survival of pollinating insects. Ironic, isn't it? (I wonder if one could work out a rough number on CO2 and SO2 per megabyte.) > The more pesticides are used, the more they are needed. It is an endless > circle, with an ever more sterile environment and ever increasing profits > for pesticide manufacturers. Then IPM programs are your best friend, because they reduce pesticide use to as low a level as possible, and can lead to a near elimination of the use of the most toxic types. > The losses of pollinators from the use of malathion and other > insecticides on cotton, or for mosquito control, been called to Mr. > Chrubini's attention several times, Blaming the manufacturers of chemicals for the misdeeds of our own government in "mosquito control" is about as appropriate as blaming auto makers for road rage incidents. The chem manufacturers clearly label their products with instructions that are intended to protect bees and other pollinating insects. Offhand, I'd suggest that the makers of the chemicals would be potential allies in an effort to get state and local governments to stop ignoring pesticide labels. No one likes the bad press that results when one's products are misused. > Do you think the boll weevil extermination program complied with the > bee protection label directions? Not a chance! That's a serious accusation. A felony, to be precise. I would hope that anyone with proof of such crimes would report them, and insist upon prosecution. Failing that, I would expect the media would be interested. > I don't know how some specific situations could be dealt with without > pesticides... I don't either, so I feel that IPM programs are a good way to work towards a steady reduction in the amount of pesticides used. Pesticides cost serious money and cost even more to apply, so farmers who invest the effort in IPM see a direct impact on their bottom line. > I'm already convinced that, if pesticide users were to become competent in > understanding the pests, usage could be cut 90%. What I see is that there is > now little incentive to do so, despite all the shibboleths of the industry. Then you should be buying Mr. Cherubini a beer, and patting him on the back for seeing the light, and starting down the path you would like to see him walk. Who better to advocate IPM programs than the pesticide salesmen? Remember, even Darth Vader turned out to be someone's dad. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Workers reared in drone cells? Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone cells. I do not know if 1). this occurs under natural conditions or not and 2). whether it is seasonal. however I observed both A. mellifera and A. cerana queens laying fertilized eggs in drone cells, late in the fall (Sept-Oct), when FORCED to lay eggs. I.e. the queen was caged in a frame holder (a whole frame can fit with queen excluders on both sides so workers can roam but the queen is imprisoned. she has no choice but to lay on the frame). Strangely workers rear these workers "to term" they emerge as normal workers. I guess it is not so strange since drones can also be reared in worker sized cells (when the queen is gone and workers start laying). My impression is that the queen somehow refuses to lay unfertilized (drone) eggs in drone cells when it is late in the season. but I am pretty sure she does so in summer. Evidence for queen intelligence ? :) :) Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:01:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd writes: <> When I was a kid, almost everyone got measles at some point; it was taken for granted. In other parts of the world, it was, and is, a major killer, but in the UK there used to be only a few deaths a year. For a good many years now, children have been vaccinated, and the disease has almost disappeared here. Over the last few years, there have been fears over the safety of the triple vaccine used, which covers, measles, mumps and rubella. There's no clarity about the truth of this, but the government responds to public concern with sheer arrogance, and refuses to make the vaccines available separately. The result is that vaccination rates are now so low that there is a serious danger of a measles epidemic, and with little or no resistance in part of the population, it could indeed be a disaster. A little humility and willingness to listen from the government could save the situation, but how often do you meet a humble politician? <> This may have been due to a failure to identify it. ROB Manley records having bought four AFB hives in about 1908. He says: 'I sent a sample of diseased brood to the British Bee Journal, who diagnosed 'Black Brood'. I am not, even to this day, quite sure what black brood was supposed to be, and I am a little doubtful if the authorities at Bedford Street (or was it Henrietta Street then?) were either.' My 1924 edition of Cowan's book describes two forms of foul brood, strong-smelling foul brood, which is clearly EFB, and odourless foul brood, which is AFB. Things may possibly have been clearer on the other side of the Atlantic, but it seems that the information necessary to identify the disease has been available to UK beekeepers for less than a century. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:47:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201241512.g0OFCRh26927@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii pb wrote: Exchanging combs is crucial to all the beekeeping that I do: raising queens, making nucs, supering, etc. To not be able to exchange frames from one hive to another is my worst nightmare. Reply: This is practical commercial beekeeping. Interchangeable combs are necessary for good production of pollen and honey and maintaining good broodnests. pb continuing: Therefore, I run 200+ hives with a zero tolerance for AFB. I can exchange combs because *I don't have AFB*. Reply: Now this is impractical beekeeping. Zero tolerance is an unobtainable goal even in Nature in the real world. You only think you can exchange combs because "you" don't have AFB. But a steril environment is as bad or worse then chemical overtreatment and AFB taking hold and ransacking colonies. With your method you develop no immunity within your bees for AFB and doom them to sudden death should it appear. This is not natures way with no second best for living. The weak die and the healthy live. Perpetuating the healthy and letting the weak die in field management is what makes bees strong. Also pulling AFB when the bees cannot handle it. A handful of spores in cells is nothing to worry about with bees that can clean on a good system. Unless you are studying AFB, there is no justification for having it. Reply: Wrong. Unless you have a little and learn how to control it the old way you have out of control bees and hives dying in mass. We have I would guess 1-2% infection within our colonies and many looking at our bees find nothing. You have to show them how to look. We know when we get a good beekeeper looking for he can find the 1-2 or so cells on a frame in a small colony. The trouble is most beekeepers need to have over a few dozen cells of foul to be able to even find it with their eyes. They are not trained to find it in the beginning and watch it and note when it gets out of control and then pull it routinely. pb wrote: Because commercial operators have tons of it, does not make it OK, a good thing, or acceptable. Reply: Yes, this is very true and shows bad management IMPOV and indicates that training is needed to show the beekeepers involved how to field manage foul properly by comb culling and remelting. Also shows that the person does not know how to select and perpetuate his bee stocks for natural resistance to foul also. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Pesticide abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A survey by Nebraska agriculture engineers reported in fall 1994 in Chemical Application Journal that found that two out of every three pesticide applicators were making significant application errors the result of inaccurate calibration, incorrect mixing, worn equipment and failure to read the product label. According to the article by Larry Reichenberger, "The Billion-Dollar Blunder," these mistakes in application were costing farmers from $2 to $12 per acre in added chemical expense, potential crop damage and threatened weed competition. The findings were bolstered by EPA's own surveys in the late 1980's and early 1990's, particularly in Region VI, that found that a large portion of the pesticide user community does not: 1) read the label prior to applications, 2) follow the directions for use, resulting in both over and under application of pesticides, and 3) communicate information about the pesticide being applied in the agricultural field to workers. Dye said that OPP reviews and issues approximately 3,500 pesticide label amendments per year, and that if users are not reading the labels, which she said was a special problem with products they are familiar with, they may be missing important new safety information. . . . A 1994 study of pesticide labels published in the JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN OPTOMETRIC ASSOCIATION found that it requires an 11th-grade cognitive reading level to understand a pesticide label, which means that 40 to 50 percent of the general population cannot read and understand the directions on a pesticide product label, even if all members of the public had the necessary 20/30 visual acuity to read the fine print. . . . Ten Common Pesticide Infractions Listed below are ten common infractions of pesticide laws as found by inspectors in one EPA region. The list provides some good points for pesticide training classes because it serves as a reminder of some of the simple things that can be overlooked. The points are valid for both private and commercial applicators. 1.Invalid business or applicator license - Do you know where your card is? If so, check the expiration date. If not, well ... 2.Label violation - This includes the use of a product on plants (or sites) no longer supported by the label or not following label instructions. For example, the labels for many pesticides have been changed over the past 4 to 5 years as a result of the EPA's reregistration program. Consequently, many uses for products, such as diazinon and malathion, have been eliminated. Some applicators may continue to buy and use products on plants (sites) that are no longer on the label. Reading the label before purchase and use is imperative. 3.Improper mixing - Read compatibility statements and other directions carefully. Problems here can be due to prohibited tank mixes that cause interactions. There can be plant reactions from combinations of certain classes of pesticides that are applied days, or even weeks, apart. 4.Failure to survey the site before applying a pesticide - This can range from overlooking or forgetting a sinkhole in a field to accidental spraying of a pet's water bowl or children's toys by a lawn care applicator. 5.Poor preparation for spills or other emergencies - How many application rigs carry some soap, water, disposable towels, and an eyewash kit? Worker protection standards now are very specific about providing decontamination materials. Applicators should be familiar with how to handle spills of the pesticides they are transporting or applying. 6.Drift complaints - Particle and/or vapor drift can result in off-target movement of a pesticide. Knowledge of product characteristics and attention to environmental conditions such as wind speeds or inversions will reduce the potential for problems. Be aware of sensitive nearby crops or plants. 7.Incomplete or missing records - Private and commercial applicators must keep appropriate records of pesticide applications. Dealers who sell restricted use pesticides also must maintain records that contain specific. information about products and purchasers. 8.Spray tank not properly cleaned; applicator not familiar with tank's history - This can lead to crop damage or illegal residues. Purchase of used spray equipment should include determining the types of products that had been applied by the previous owner. Solvents in some EC formulations can serve as tank cleaners. This can result in inadvertent crop injury by the new owner. 9.Applicator makes erroneous product safety claims - While there could be cases of overselling a product, lack of familiarity with the label may be a major reason for unrealistic claims. Read beyond just the crop and rate information. Look critically for cautions or warnings, such as crop or variety sensitivity or effects of specific weather conditions on applications or product efficacy. 10.Failure to use required personal protective equipment - Requirements are spelled out now and may even require specific types of gloves or spray suits. Use quality equipment, and keep it clean and functional. Replace it as needed. http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/document/labels/infractn.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:40:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? In-Reply-To: <200201241652.g0OGqTh02184@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Zachary wrote: Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone cells. I do not know if 1). this occurs under natural conditions or not and 2). whether it is seasonal. Reply: Workers being reared in drone cells!!! Interesting concept. But what about rearing workers unnaturally in overly artificially enlarged worker cells that go beyond the bounds of possibility for the natural drone size ratio to worker cells of 20% difference and you end up with all your workerbees and colonies on a pseudo system out-of-balance with nautre? Can placing combs to raise workers in colonies on foundation bigger then the 20% ratio difference or even near to that ratio be a healthy situation? How do the parasitic mites that naturallly attack the drones know the difference and secondary diseases for that matter also. All the mites see is MORE food like in the natural difference between workers and drones of Apis cerana. If 5.5mm was quoted by Baudoux in Belguim in the early 1900s pre 1934 to be natural drone size then what is 5.4mm size of bigger other then trouble? Now Baudoux was referring to worder size also in the natural in his area as being 5.0mm which is IMPOV the upper limit of the natural spectrum of 4.7mm to 5.0mm for the most part. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > My 1924 edition of Cowan's book describes two forms of foul brood, > strong-smelling foul brood, which is clearly EFB, and odourless foul brood, > which is AFB. Things may possibly have been clearer on the other side of the > Atlantic, but it seems that the information necessary to identify the disease > has been available to UK beekeepers for less than a century. Both efb and afb can have or not have odors, so it is not a distinction. When thy do smell, efb smells sour and afb smells like a "glue pot" (ABC+XYZ of Beekeeping). Having smelled afb and not smelled anything observing efb, I can only attest that afb just smells bad. The Hive and the Honey Bee says the efb smell may be from other bacteria. In any case, they can both stink or be near odorless. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Disease Resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed PB: Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better on their own. No scientist would support this. Response: I guess Steve Taber is not a scientist then. Nor is Marla Spivak. I can name more who have recommended exactly this (or a close variation) in writing or a public lecture. PB: Well, neither Dr. Spivak, not Steve Taber are here to respond, but I will point out that neither of them recommends harboring disease in order to develop resistance. What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest and breeding from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. This requires no diseased hives. from 45 YEARS OF FOULBROOD by Dr. Bill Wilson: "The more recent development of hygienic stocks has been mainly under the direction of Mr. Steve Taber (1992) and Dr. Marla Spivak (Spivak & Reuter 1998). Hygienic lines of bees often show resistance to more diseases than just AFB. An outstanding review of hygienic behavior in honey bees was published recently by Spivak and Gilliam (1998). Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant bee stocks that are widely available to all beekeepers. The most likely stock will come from a hygienic-behavior breeding program. Furthermore, beekeepers should be encouraged to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those that fail to respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. " Spivak, M. and G.S. Reuter. 1998. Honey bee hygienic behavior. Amer. Bee J. 138:283-286. Spivak, M. and M. Gilliam. 1998. Hygienic behaviour of honey bees and its application for control of brood diseases and Varroa. Parts I & II. Bee World 79:124-134 & 169-186. Taber, S. 1992. Resistant bees. Glean. Bee Culture 120:78-79. Taber, S. 1998. Resistance to Disease, Amer. Bee J. 138:47-48. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:33:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading the different mails* that have been posted over the recent past, a thought relating to a mail that I posted several months ago came to mind. The mail suggested that comments on the preoccupation's of beekeepers and the allied industries could be formulated into a list. A list that may then be used to synthesize an overall picture of present/possible and potential activity direction. The underlying reason being that forewarned may result in increased preparedness! The result was : 1 reply. The following possibilities may have resulted in the lack of replies: For the group, the mail was irrelevant, list impossible to formulate, individuals not caring to look with a little effort into the future, interesting but some other individual would respond. Connecting the above to mails* on V.d. and what techniques to use and where new ones will arrive from, AFB and again what is happening in the field and what possibilities are for the future, plus the very recent topic suggesting possible large scale "gene mapping" via. nucleotide investigation highlight for me that there is still the great need for an overall perspective to be created. This being available to all (maybe in different formats for different levels of need). Taking the "genome" project - if and when it arrives, the results and information gained will serve to what ends? Observing discussions and disputes over that material gained in the investigation of the human equivalent - which was AFAIK, done with the aim of supplying freely available information suggests that benefit will be limited to those who can make cash. Sequences and any changes made will be copyrighted, the outcome sold with royalties, law suites undertaken due to open air (accidental crossings) fertilization with non authorised material etc. etc. If, as so many times in the past, we wait and only react when pressured to do so is a poor reflection on what we could do - with pre thought! It was obvious what was going to happen when treating V.d. with "chemicals" - and even so, the response was for country after country to follow practically the same procedure. Antibiotic resistance - Many antibiotics are already effectively lost and as each one drops of the list, a frantic search for the next variant is put in place. Get together, not only realise the end result, but plan ahead - well ahead! Put in place a well defined strategy, ensuring as many differing conditions are covered as possible. These developed and developing strategies as suggested would need to be easily obtained by a user population. - a centralised source, with national contacts. At the moment, any search into what ever problem inflicting itself on our bees or allied industry very quickly runs into an academic brick wall, often associated with industrial "secrets" and "no right to know". The knowledge is there for who? A group like Bee-L performs a great service to beekeepers but is hampered by rumour, mistruths, correct facts and reasonable journalism - all mixed with the possibility to pick and choose. It, to my way of thinking often reflects the lack of strategic direction being suffered. The problems for bees and beekeeping are piling up at a far rate, with suggestions that they will continue to do so in the increasingly man altered environment (the one we are supposed to be removing problems from!) Therefore, as an industry deemed by some as an organised affair, let's start showing intelligent planning. Candidates for future problems in our industry? The Bionic bee, bees being considered as pests in some quarters of the agricultural sector, future development of pesticide marketing and authorisation, independent research/ researchers, honey adulteration/ labeling........ Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:07 -0500, Zachary Huang wrote: >Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone >cells. A professor at the University of Guelph once told me about an experiment he performed with drone comb. He shook a package of bees into a hive with nothing but drone comb to see how the queen would react. After laying a lot of unfertilized eggs, the queen started laying fertilized eggs in drone cells. However he said only half of these workers (that developed in drone cells) hatched out. The unhatched workers turned out to be facing the comb's midrib so could not chew their way out. After a little more investigation it was determined that the reason for this was that when pupating, the workers use the rough capping as compared to the smooth cell bottom to orient their heads towards the capping. I assume in a drone cell, workers feel the smooth cell bottom on one side and some empty air on the other, hence they guessed wrong about which end was the smoothest 50% of the time. I mentioned all this a few years ago, Zachary, which reminds me of a joke. Where did Noah keep his bees? In his archives. (Ark,Ark,Ark) On CBC's radio program Quirks and Quarks last weekend, I heard a scientist saying that animals like snakes, which have periods of lethargy, prevent atrophy of muscles by sending regular nerve impulses to their muscles. Does anybody know if there is research showing that bees do the same thing over winter? How about beekeepers on computers? Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? In-Reply-To: <3C508BBD.31D52E27@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/24/02 10:33 PM, you wrote: >Taking the "genome" project - if and when it arrives, the results and >information gained will serve to what ends? Mapping the genomes is a powerful tool and will be used for good and bad things, dependent on *motive*. Is the motive *to understand*, *to heal*, or to gain *power* and *money*? >At the moment, any search into what ever problem inflicting itself on >our bees or allied industry very quickly runs into an academic brick >wall, often associated with industrial "secrets" and "no right to know". >The knowledge is there for who? I work in an academic setting and I have tried to share everything I know. I admit, some academics will not now talk with me because I am not *secretive* but so be it. >A group like Bee-L performs a great service to beekeepers but is >hampered by rumour, mistruths, correct facts and reasonable journalism - >all mixed with the possibility to pick and choose. It, to my way of >thinking often reflects the lack of strategic direction being suffered. It is not that hard to separate the rumors from the facts. The rumor mongers never have any independent corroboration. >Candidates for future problems in our industry? There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem. PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, neither Dr. Spivak, not Steve Taber are here to respond, but I will > point out that neither of them recommends harboring disease in order to > develop resistance. Well, let's ask Aaron. Maybe I was dreaming, but I thought I am sure that was her I heard clearly recommending something very much like that at Apimondia when she said every beekeeper should try to maintain at least one yard without any treatment whatsoever, in order to observe and select. Frankly, given the management and observation skills of the average beekeeper (and bee haver?) the idea struck many of us as hair-brained and Aaron queried her at some length publicly. > What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. > This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest and breeding > from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. This requires no diseased > hives Many years back, from time-to-time in his magazine articles, and before he went to Europe for a while, Steve Taber, it seems to me, was advocating that beekeepers and breeders challenge bees with AFB. Later he moved to recommending using freezer killed brood, which made the whole idea more palatable to beekeepers. One of the things that slowed the acceptance of selecting for HYG twenty years ago and more was that it seemed to require inserting AFB into hives. The current use of surrogate tests has made the idea an easier sell. It also seems to me that I did read an article quite some long time back, when the whole idea of HYG was not so well accepted in which Steve did say that he was not concerned about AFB in in his outfit and even considered it a good thing when selecting. As far as personal experience is concerned, as a bee inspector, I have seen bees that seem totally immune to AFB. In one memorable case, cited here before, every hive in the yard of 40 or so was broken down and full, of scale with the exception of 3 or so. These latter bees were robbing the AFB deadouts and thriving without showing any active disease. I was amazed. Moreover, recently, I had a chance to observe Lusby's operation. They use no treatments at all for mites or brood diseases. Over a two day period in seven yards, we opened 100 hives or so at random, and inspected 30 or so closely. On one frame in one hive, we found one cell of AFB. The other cappings on the frame were slightly discolored, and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under control. Dee said she and Ed argue about whether to pull that frame or just to let the bees handle it. We just left the frame, marked the hive, and moved on. (Note: Don't try this at home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. Lusbys have unusual bee stock, considerable expertise and insight, a unique management system, and an unique environment). In my own experience, when we still had AFB, we decided one year to move any AFB into a nurse yard and attempt to clear them up with OTC. We moved about 10 in from various yards and, I think gave them one dusting. As often happens, we did not get back for a while -- several weeks and when we did there was no sign whatsoever of any AFB. Did moving make the difference, the OTC, a honey flow? I often wonder, since even three dustings will sometimes not clean up AFB. > Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant bee stocks that > are widely available to all beekeepers. The most likely stock will come > from a hygienic-behavior breeding program. Furthermore, beekeepers should > be encouraged to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at > least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those that fail to > respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. " That's good advice. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Disease Resistance In-Reply-To: <002b01c1a5ae$5537d720$bde5a1c6@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen wrote: >As far as personal experience is concerned, as a bee inspector, I have seen bees that seem totally immune to AFB. In one memorable case, cited here before, every hive in the yard of 40 or so was broken down and full, of scale with the exception of 3 or so. These latter bees were robbing the AFB deadouts and thriving without showing any active disease. I was amazed. OK, but does that mean they have "disease resistance" and is it *hereditary*? Let me give an example. In 1955, in the middle of the polio epidemic, I got polio. (At the time, everyone was paranoid about polio; some people were even afraid to swim in public places for fear of getting it from the water.) I was one of a family of 5 people. No one else in my family got it. Were they "disease resistant" and was it hereditary? Furthermore, if they were disease resistant, does that mean they shouldn't need to be vaccinated? In fact, in 1956, when everyone was getting vaccinated, I stood there and argued with the school nurse, telling her I didn't need to be vaccinated, since I already had it. I got vaccinated anyway. There are people today that refuse to get vaccinated. Don't need it, they say. And some even get polio from the vaccine. But what does that mean? We have a national policy that all children should get vaccinated against a variety of diseases. I wonder how many beekeepers forego *tetanus* vaccine? I hope not many, because a beekeeper in our area recently got tetanus and it was not a pretty thing. He was in a coma for many weeks and barely pulled through. The long and short of i t is, you may *say* you have disease resistance, but how do you know? And how can you propagate it? I submit that it *is not that easy* to propagate *any* line of bees. It requires scientific care and effort. It is not just a matter of saying "looks like a breeder". (I have actually seen people in the queen rearing profession do this.) Allen writes: >(Note: Don't try this at home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. Lusbys have unusual bee stock, considerable expertise and insight, a unique management system, and an unique environment). Perhaps this is all true. But then, if they have "a unique management system, and an unique environment" -- how much weight can be placed on "unusual bee stock"? We have no way of knowing whether the low incidence of disease is due to 1) unusual bee stock, 2) considerable expertise and insight, 3) a unique management system, or 4) a unique environment. See what I mean? TOO MANY VARIABLES = NO DEFINITE CONCLUSION. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Well, let's ask Aaron. Maybe I was dreaming, but I thought > I am sure that was her I heard clearly recommending > something very much like that at Apimondia when she said > every beekeeper should try to maintain at least one > yard without any treatment whatsoever, in order to observe and select. > Aaron queried her at some length publicly. Yes, the not-so infamous "Bees going south" query! Specifically, Marla was addressing not treating for Varroa (it was Varroa j. back then although Apimondia '99 in Vancouver was the first public announcement of Varroa d.). Marla was speaking of her hygienic strains and recommending that at least one yard remain treatment free too keep selection pressure up so one could identify what (if any) hives were able to withstand the assault. The questions were asked, at what point should the beekeeper step in to save what may be shaping up to be a total collapse of an entire yard. Unfortuantely situation of "a total collapse of an entire yard" was worded as 'the yard going south", which Marla interpreted as the beekeeper migrating the entire yard to Florida or some such thing, and the poor international translaters were totally lost! If you were there it was really quite comical. But I believe Marla's answer was stick to your guns, and if the entire yard collapses then there was nothing in that yard worth savaing as far as selecting for resistance (in this case Varroa resistance). I have since heard Marla state that her hygienic stock is more sussecptible to Varroa when compared to Harbo's SMR lines, but superior with respect to AFB. This is another issue (select for one trait at the expense of others) that has been discussed before. But yes, Marla did recommend leaving a yard treatment free to keep up selection pressure in reference to Varroa. I have heard similar recommendation regarding treatment-free yards from others in the research arena. Dr. H.R. Shimanuki has recommended getting off the TM merry-go-around, a yard at a time, but the context here was not regarding selection for resistance, it was solely to stop treating with chemicals. Shim recommended stop treating on a yard basis, keeping diligent watch on that yard and he was clear to state that any AFB outbreaks were to be cured by fire. I've heard Steve Tabor recommend harboring disease, but this was in reference to chalkbrood. I doubt highly that he'd draw lines between chalk and AFB. Steve preaches the only way you're going to breed bees resistent to whatever is to keep whatever around in your apiary so you'll know which stock resists and which stock succumbs. And again, the context of what he stated publicly was chalk. He cautioned that you must be wary of the source of your pollen (if you feed pollen) because pollen from an unknown source is likely to contain mummies. Then he went on to boast that it is the mummy laden pollen he wants so he can be sure his stock will be chalk resistant. If his bees can't stand up to the pressure he culls the bees. I have never heard Steve say the same thing about harboring AFB (perhaps because most states have laws against harboring AFB - although frankly, I doubt Steve is one to care excessively about laws) but I'd bet he keeps the same sort of pressure on his bees when he's selecting for AFB resistance. I imaging he has a supply of spore ridden combs that he seeds his breeder hives with, breeds from the survivors, culls those that break out. In fact, this may be in print in his book _Breeding_Super_Bees_, but I cannot say for sure. Personally I wouldn't try this at home and don't recommend it. My strategy is to buy the stock from those who are doing the assessments, and even then all hives are suspect. Claims are one thing, actual performance is what counts. > What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. > This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest > and breeding from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. > This requires no diseased hives. Yes, this is the current recommendation. This will identify good housekeeping bees, which can be an assist to keeping AFB at bay. However, there may be other things that assist AFB resistance independant of good housekeeping habits. Some bees may have physiological advantages that may help with AFB resistance that may be lost when selecting for good housekeeping habits (select for one trait at the expense of others). > It also seems to me that I did read an article in which > Steve did say that he was not concerned about AFB in in > his outfit and even considered it a good thing when selecting. Again, I recall he says something similar in _Breeding_Super_Bees_, but I would only recommend this to the VERY FEW beekeepers who pay that close attention to their bees and their bees' needs. For most, this is playing with fire. If you likely to get burned, buy the stock from reputable breeders who make a living selecting for and raising it. > Moreover, recently, I had a chance to observe Lusby's > operation. What, did gravity stop working? ;-) > Dee said she and Ed argue about whether to pull that (infected) > frame or just to let the bees handle it. We just left the frame, > marked the hive, and moved on. (Note: Don't try this at > home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. YUP! Unless the beekeeper is EXTREMELY skilled, playing with AFB like this, or as Tabor hints, is begging for disaster. >> "Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant >> bee stocks that are widely available to all beekeepers. The >> most likely stock will come from a hygienic-behavior breeding >> program. Furthermore, beekeepers should be encouraged >> to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at >> least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those >> that fail to respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. Just though that deserved to be stated a third time! Aaron Morris - thinking leave playing with fire to the fire-eaters! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:20:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Bees in Africa? Comments: cc: muhammad madany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this a while ago. Can anyone help. I suspect that South african bees are out of the question due to the possibility of accidental Cape bee introduction. > > hello allen,my name is muhammad madany and american living in the gambia,west africa.i would like to start an apiary but the people here don't work with the bees, they just go into the hives at night and take the >honey. > > the african bees are wild and will sting everyone in a half mile radias if there hive is bothered.do you know anyone who is doing beekeeping in africa who can share information&exsperience?also do you know of anyone raising italian bees in africa? muhammad madany ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: >and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under control. In the book Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases (Morse, Flottum): p. 45: “Shimanuki, et al. (1992) found that antibacterial material from chalkbrood mummies inhibited the growth of Melissococcus pluton and B. larvae. This material was subsequently identified as the fatty acid, linoleic acid (Feldlaufer et al. 1993)” p. 95: “A recent interesting discovery about the interaction of bee diseases concerns the effect of chalkbrood on European and American foulbrood. Shimanuki, et al. (1992) noted a decline in the incidence of European foulbrood in the United States was accompanied by an increase in chalkbrood. Ethanol extracts of mixtures of mycelia and spores of A. apis were shown to contain an antimicrobial substance active against the bacterial pathogens of both European foulbrood and American foulbrood diseases.” Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Fwd: Re: resistance to AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PB: >I have been involved in a discussion about the current approach to treating AFB. Several people have made the assertion that when they encounter it, they simply removed diseased brood combs, and apply no other treatment. They go on to state that they are "breeding for resistance" and usually cite your work. What is your reaction to such assertions? MS: >You are asking two separate questions. I think it is a good idea to remove diseased brood combs. It might be better to remove all combs and start the colony on foundation, but removing at least some combs is a good idea. > >The second part: removing diseased brood combs is not really breeding for resistance. Breeding for resistance would entail not propagating any colony that has disease, and raising queens from colonies that do not show any symptoms of disease. In our experiments we found that even some hygienic colonies came down with clinical symptoms of AFB after we challenged them by putting combs with AFB scale in the colonies. But most of these colonies recovered on their own, without chemical treatment, or removing combs. They simply were able to remove the diseased brood from the combs, but it took a few weeks to "get a handle" on it all. > >So, removing diseased combs by a beekeeper is "hygienic" but that is a human behavior, and is very different than hygienic bees removing diseased brood from the cells. The hygienic beekeepers are not breeding for hygienic behavior in the bees. I encourage them to continue the practice, but please don't confuse it with the bee breeding I am doing. (The best sources on breeding come from Laidlaw and Page's book on queen rearing and breeding.) > >Best, Marla Spivak ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:21:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both efb and afb can have or not have odors, so it is not a distinction. When thy do smell, efb smells sour and afb smells like a "glue pot" (ABC+XYZ of Beekeeping). Having smelled afb and not smelled anything observing efb, I can only attest that afb just smells bad. The Hive and the Honey Bee says the efb smell may be from other bacteria. In any case, they can both stink or be near odorless. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine This is my point exactly; the information necessary to distinguish brood diseases was not available. Actually Cowan's description - which is far too long to quote here - isn't too bad in other respects, but without the benefit of the information available now, I do wonder whether I'd be able to diagnose properly on the basis of it. I don't have enough old beekeeping books to be able to pinpoint the date when these diseases were clearly distinguished in UK beekeeping literature, but my 1947 edition of Wedmore is clear enough. I have my doubts as to whether AFB emerged in the 19th Century, as one poster seemed to suggest; I think people just weren't identifying it, and that real knowledge of bee disease probably goes back only as far as the moveable comb hive. As I add to my book collection, I'll doubtless be able to put this more clearly. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:24:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered > chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under > control. > p. 45: “Shimanuki, et al. (1992) found that antibacterial material from > chalkbrood mummies inhibited the growth of Melissococcus pluton and B. > larvae. This material was subsequently identified as the fatty acid, > linoleic acid (Feldlaufer et al. 1993)” I was aware of this and that's actually why mentioned the CB. I might also mention we saw very little CB, but one factor explaining this is no doubt the fact that the Lusbys have recently shaken all their hives onto foundation. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:37:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst states "There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem." Realising that my position is coming from idealistic tendencies. Is it not normal for other sectors to show co-ordinated organisation when they are confronted with levels of difficulties such as those faced by apiculture at the present? Varroa spread was easily predicted once the "cat was out of the bag". But each country waited until the pest arrived before instigating a plan of action - usually one that in the long term was doomed to fail. In such situations as this, it is surely logical and not beyond our capability to organise better courses of action. Pesticides: Why do we continue to accept that our colonies are devastated? Year in and year out. I suggest that if the same occurred to the average cattle owner, the authorities would be informed to get something done - and quickly! An apology with an insurance claim would not settle the matter. Especially if it was expected to occur over and over again. Also, Because there has been lack of policy in the past and policy is limited at the present, this is not a good recommendation that the "status quo" should continue into the future. Organise, plan and get action before the problem arises - and at a level required to get results! Peter Indre France ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:42:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Africa Allen, as I've posted before, I kept bees for the 9 years I spent in Africa, and I e-mailed the man in the Gambia with and offer of advice. As far as equipment, South Africa has a very well developed apicultural manufactoring industry, and with the South African Rand at an all time low, this would be a good source of equipment. A good scut would be better than Italians in Africa, especially in an evironment like the Gambia, provided that they were pure bred. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:39:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: resistance to AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The second part: removing diseased brood combs is not really breeding for resistance. Breeding for resistance would entail not propagating any colony that has disease, and raising queens from colonies that do not show any symptoms of disease. In our experiments we found that even some hygienic colonies came down with clinical symptoms of AFB after we challenged them by putting combs with AFB scale in the colonies. But most of these colonies recovered on their own, without chemical treatment, or removing combs. They simply were able to remove the diseased brood from the combs, but it took a few weeks to "get a handle" on it all. < < I think this is not contrary to what anyone here has been saying. There may be differing conclusions about what this means, though, depending on each individual beekeeper's expertise, environment, bee stock, medication practices, age of equipment, availability of drawn comb, appraisal of the ambient disease levels, etc. As for removing combs, there are several reasons that removal makes sense, even if the beekeeper believes that the bees can clean up the remainder -- either because of having requeened with a HYG queen or other reasons, such as having added a drug or supplementary feed. Removal is advisable in most cases to eliminate the most obvious part of the spore load, to enable the bees to work on clean comb -- scaly comb is hard on small hives in marginal weather and actually repellent. Moreover, even if HYG or partially HYG stock is in use, there are better ways to test and maintain the trait than having breakdown in the hives and there is always the chance that an individual queen may not carry the trait or that a supercedure queen may open mate and break down. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:14:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Pesticide Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resistance to antibiotics, AFB, female V.d. are all in the limelight. Has any individual come across information concerning honeybee populations developing resistance to any level against pesticides? Sub-lethal quantities are being introduced into the hive on a daily basis. Therefore queens must be exposed to quantities that may effect her genetic components. Peter Inure France ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? Ted, Do you know if this is ever published? This is awesome information! and his name? perhaps I can do a search. I guess there were only 4 old bee profs in Guelph: Stu Dixon, R.W. Shuel, M.V. Smith, and Dr. Townsend, now, who was it that did the experiment? thanks! I hope it is not the new one (Otis or Scott-Dupree) -- I should know if it is them... Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:29:36 -0500, Ted Hancock wrote: >A professor at the University of Guelph once told me about an experiment he >performed with drone comb. He shook a package of bees into a hive with ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > > Peter Borst states > "There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone > global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New > Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem." > > Realising that my position is coming from idealistic tendencies. > > Is it not normal for other sectors to show co-ordinated organisation > when they are confronted with levels of difficulties such as those faced > by apiculture at the present? The problem, in its most basic terms, is that there are not enough commercial beekeepers and we are on the periphery of agriculture. In addition beekeepers either supply a commodity, honey, or a service, pollination, neither of which has a major in the pocket impact.( The results of pollination are nice statistics, but someone has to grow it first and they are the ones who get the money, not the beekeeper.) And I can attest that as a service group, the pollinators are at the beck and call of the growers. In essence, beekeeping does not have clout, even if organized. Too few and the monetary impact is not visible (except to the beekeeper). In Maine, our State Beekeeping organization joined with a larger Association of Ag groups, including the organic people. It looked like by doing so we would gain clout, but the clout was with the growers, especially since the pollinators are from out of state. We got nothing from joining so eventually gave up. I was the one who wanted us to join, so was disappointed with reality. I appreciate the intent of a global perspective, but, as I like to say, all beekeeping is local. I only have to note the difference of opinion on AFB to know that it would be near impossible to get any global consensus in beekeeping. Most of the problems of Beekeeping are currently handled by existing organizations and by both commercial beekeepers and scientists. There is a lot going on and it is not on the internet. What the Internet does best is let us know some of what is happening in those areas. What it does worst is disseminate opinion or falsehood as fact. Plus, I do not see the dark clouds and dire straits that seem to be portrayed. We have gone through a major hit from varroa but are still standing and many are doing quite well. Pesticide use is going down. I see fewer posts on kills like we were reading some years back. Mew marketing strategies for honey are appearing. In all, things look fairly good to me, which is another reason that a global approach will not work. You truly need to have all see a common danger or problem to unite any group, and it is just not there. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:38:53 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: Pesticide Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has any individual come across information concerning honeybee > populations developing resistance to any level against pesticides? > > Sub-lethal quantities are being introduced into the hive on a daily > basis. Right on! At the AHPA meeting, a bright young USDA scientist mentioned he was working on just this angle. allen Thinking that these conventions are the Horse's Mouth... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:10:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:54:37 -0500, Zachary Huang wrote: >Ted, > >Do you know if this is ever published? Zachary, It was Dr.M.V.Smith who gave me this information. I don't think it was published and I am not even sure if it was Dr. Smith who did the research. However I do believe it was done at Guelph so if it was not done by him it would have been one of his colleagues. Dr. Smith said the idea for the experiment came about when a foundation manufacturer started to produce drone foundation with the theory that it would make better comb for honey supers. I don't know enough about the history of beekeeping in North America to know when that was. I am sorry to be so hearsayish. I notice all the pros on this list back up their statements with footnotes, maybe a website or two and even italicized latin. It is said a wise father burns his report cards and all my notes from Guelph went up in smoke with the report cards. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:34:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: ABF convention 2002 Hello All, I enjoyed meeting Blane White, Jim Fischer, Lloyd Spear, Hamilton and the gal from the North Carolina beekeepers from Bee-L. Putting a face with a name on a Bee-L post helps. People always seem to look different than you picture. The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% Africanized. The black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits with intercasts with laying worker queens.In short they are showing all the Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman went into great detail about the labs observations. At the end of the talk I asked if she was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing capensis traits. her answer was "You are exactly right". Capensis were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr and she believes the capensis strain is alive and well in Arizona. To those Bee-L followers which followed Barry Seargeant and my posts on the subject last year you can see what a dire effect capensis would have on U.S. beekeeping. For those thinking the above is not true contact the bee lab, ask a fellow beekeeper which was at the ABF convention and attended the talk or purchase the tape of the lecture from the ABF office. Dr. Hoffman carefully avoided using the word capensis throughout her talk but openly talked about capensis when I questioned her. I thank Dr. Hoffman for her lecture and her observations. Finding capensis in Arizona is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may have been the one who make a reference to AFB having been identified in the late 1800's. At the time, I tried, unsuccessfully, to find a reference in The Hive and The Honeybee. Unfortunately, this otherwise excellent book is not always well indexed. For example, AFB is discussed at length on pages 1083-1096, but the only index reference to those pages is to the photos on page 1086! But I digress... On page 1090 there is a reference to a control procedure developed in 1907. That is the earliest reference I could quickly find. However, my memory is that the names EFB and AFB were applied based on the location where the bacteria was first discovered and identified, and that EFB was discovered and identified several years before AFB. In fact, if my memory serves, for a few years AFB was misidentified as EFB. Now, this could be within the pages of The Hive and the Honeybee, or in some other reference. I am certain I read it somewhere. I am less certain of the late 19th century reference, but it is not illogical if the 1907 reference to an AFB treatment is accurate. Seems to me that Miller's Forty Years Among the Bees had a reference to disease? I'll look that up at home. Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the 1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening the existence of beekeeping in the US? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Finding capensis in Arizona > is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this > is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again > thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did > not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Bob, Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have capensis genes? And, if traits, are those same traits common with AHB in South Africa, at the boundary of AHB with Capensis? I did not realize there was cross breeding. Only trying to establish the extent of the problem, since different races of bees can have, from time to time, traits of others, such as aggression, propolis buildup, etc.. But if we are talking genes, then it is an entirely different problem. Your post seems to affirm my belief that the mechanics of the hive and beekeeping are low on the list compared to the bee itself. Good bees make good beekeepers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee, I see sometime ago on beesource.com that you or somebody else was to check the reproductive rate of varroa in combs of different sizes, is that experiement now completed? I compared the varroa reproduction rate between two hosts: workers reared in worker cells and workers reared in drone cells and strangely, mite reproduced much less on workers reared in drone cells! this is only true in Apis mellifera, in Apis cerana the difference is not significant. Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:56:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Dr. Hoffman carefully avoided using the word capensis throughout her talk >but openly talked about capensis when I questioned her. I thank Dr. >Hoffman for her lecture and her observations. Finding capensis in Arizona >is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this >is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again >thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did >not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Notice how she carefully avoided saying this. If it is true, then the proof would have been given. Since it wasn't, it is just opinion. mark _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:21:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> R.B. Quoting from Morse's book, Honey Bee Pests, Predators and Diseases, he states "Phillips, in his introduction to White's publication of 1906 on bacteria in the apiary, used the terms EFB and AFB to differentiate the two conditions but made it clear that the designation did not refer to the geographical distribution of the disease." Quoting from Morse and Hooper's Encyclopedia (American book) "E F Franklin joined the USDA in 1907 i/c the bee department. Dr G F White, under his direction, discovered the causes of EFB and AFB." Incidentally, Snodgrass, of Anatomy and Physiology fame, was also in that department. I can find no earlier reference. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:38:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > Bill said: > > I appreciate the intent of a global perspective, but, as I like to say, > all beekeeping is local. I only have to note the difference of opinion > on AFB to know that it would be near impossible to get any global > consensus in beekeeping. > > Hi Bill and all, Over the years I have enjoyed reading posts from all over the world. One thing that always stands out , what worked in one area may not work as well someplace else. Part of the problem is the Genotype of the bees themselves.Behavior is hinged on the environment that the bee exists in at the moment. So what I could be seeing in my bees could be much different that what Bill is seeing in Maine. You don't have to go far from home to see differences in behavior and environment. I have a friend that lives just 70 miles north of me and we can be at different stages of spring build up every year. We just had a shift 2 years ago and my weather down here is better ( less rain) than what he gets up north. We still face the same problems, mites and AFB, ects. but timing is different for our treatments if any. One week of warmer clear air makes a great difference in spring build up here in Washington state. I keep my bees for wintering just 10 feet above sea level on Hood canal. That gives them a one week jump start ahead of bees that I would keep at home , just 9 miles away and up 500 feet. My main point is simple, beekeeping is done in your hive in its location. We all face the same general problems but we may have to solve them in a little different way, do to our environment. I look out the window and see snow falling. That will change a few of my plans for this next week for the bees at home. ( Breeder Queens) The bees down at the water will not see snow and it will be 10 F warmer. I did check all of my bees for stores last week and had to put some honey on a few of them. Not all Queens shut down in the winter. I have 4 with wall to wall bees. That is not normal in the Russians. We need to share information which may help others. We must stay on top of our bees in our hives. One should not jump into anything until they think it over very well and match it up to there environment and the bees they keep. Best Regards Roy Tahuya Wa. US > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 10:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have > capensis genes? > Only trying to establish the extent of the problem, since different > races of bees can have, from time to time, traits of others, such as > aggression, propolis buildup, etc.. But if we are talking genes, then it > is an entirely different problem. That is correct. AFAIK, the only evidence is by inference. Who knows, though maybe there is a paper wending its way through peer review. In the meantime, I have to say, having seen Lusbys bees and worked with them over three days, and that the bees they have are smaller, and smart, but not particularly vicious. On that latter characteristic, I would rate them in the middle of all the European types I have worked over the years and much milder than some Australian and New Zealand stock I have owned. They were mostly quiet on the comb and quite nice to work. They were instantly aware when we opened a cell to look for varroa and immediately one or several would examine the probe. We never found more than one varroa per cell and only found one in a sealed cell. We almost always found one in the occasional cells opened by the bees at the coloured-eye pupa stage, but the foundress was invariably non-reproductive. Dee claims that the thelytoky trait has been in the Lusby bees since long before the AHB furor and that their bees actually do raise new queens and that the Lusbys actually seek the thelytoky trait when breeding their bees, since the hives will raise a queen even when at the laying worker condition, and tolerate multiple queens. when requeening, she just smokes a virgin in and claims good success. Moreover she claims that she believes that the idea that there were no honey bees in America before the white man is as erroneous as the idea that Columbus was the first to discover America, but just as widely believed (My comparison, not Dee's). She cites cave paintings, and also the fact that a search of Spanish records has failed to confirm the long held belief that the Spanish brought the first honey bees to the New World. Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail, apparently turning up papers describing this trait being observed in European bees long before the current hubbub about cape bees. I am hoping that she will cite some here and that she and Barry will also get the BeeSource items indexed in a way that those of us who are not inclined to dig and hunt can follow the Lusby story in easy bites. Determining the actual origin of any bees in the world is a difficult job, since bees have been moved around the world by man time and again, and some of the basic assumptions about what stock belongs where is suspect. Bees are being moved around the world constantly, both overtly and surreptitiously, even into and out of supposedly quarantined areas. I notice that a well-known Australian queen breeder (I bought many queens and packages from him over the years) was recently convicted and fined for carrying nine queens into Australia in a pen. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: History of AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Lloyd writes: >Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the >1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening >the existence of beekeeping in the US? Some History of AFB From "A Short History of the Empire State Honey Producers' Association", by Roger Morse (1967) : AFB was rampant in New York State in the 1920's. In NYS, Mr. A. C. Gould must be credited with demonstrating how American Foulbrood can be controlled through a rigid inspection program. He served as state inspector from 1928 till 1965. When Mr. Gould assumed responsibility for bee disease inspection *in 1928* the records show that well over *six* per cent of the colonies in the state were infected with AFB. Gould advocated burning infected colonies, and after ten years, reduced the degree of infection to slightly more than one per cent. The Second World War resulted in a dramatic increase in the number of hobby beekeepers and in fewer inspectors being available to check colonies, As a result, the number of infected colonies increased and 1946 four per cent had AFB. By 1958 it was less than 1 per cent. Mr. Gould felt that it probably would be impossible to reduce the level to much less than one per cent without greatly increasing the number of inspectors. The spore stage may remain alive in old equipment for more than 30 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, July, 1875: "It was not until 1870 that I got nicely into movable frames and Italian bees. ... In the fall of '72 I bought a large stock of bees and material for hives... Everything went well until Feb., when that universal disease seated itself in my apiary and in spring I had 6 left and two hundred empty hives and nothing 'to pay the undertaker.'" ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Sept, 1875: "My treatment consist of two parts; first , the removal of all the brood and the extracting of all the honey of all of the affected hives. Perhaps this last might not be essential." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Apr 1876: "All seemed to go well for a time, but after a while some of his colonies did not seem to be doing well, and on examination he found their combs contained dead larvae which the bees did not clean out, so he exchanged combs with stronger swarms, thinking they would clean them up and make it all right. ... some of our best apiarians visited him and pronounced his trouble to be foul brood. ... Mr. Krushke adopted the heroic treatment and destroyed his bees, melted his combs into wax and piled up the hives and frames for sale or future use." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Nov 1876, I found the first mention of the use of salicylic acid for foul brood. "The discoverer of the remedy cured 25 badly affected stocks, and other beekeepers have cure 30 and 40 without a single failure." The recipe is "Put 50 gramms of the best crystallized acid into a bottle with eight times the weight of good spirits of wine... mix with water in the proportion of one drop of the spirits of wine and acid to one gramm of water. ... an affected stock should be sprinkled ... it will be found that, thought the young brood will not have been in the least injured, yet the virus of the disease will have been efficiently destroyed. [they] used the salicylic acid as a preventative against foul brood, having mixed it with the sirup." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In "The Hive and the Honeybee", Dadant, 1913: Foul-brood 786. There are other important diseases, but all are nothing, when compared to the dreaded contagious malady, already known thousands of years ago* and commonly call foul-brood because it shows its effects mainly by the dying of the brood. * As Aristotle (History of Animals, Book IX, Chap. 40) speaks of a disease which is accompanied by a disgusting smell of the hive, there is reason to believe that foul-brood was common more than two thousand years ago. In the 1913 book many *cures* are described, including honey mixed with salicylic acid, salicylic fumigants, carbolic acid, shaking method, etc. E. R. Root was quoted: "We did not get very satisfactory results by the use of drugs, when foul-brood visited our apiary some years ago. We did find, however, that they invariably held the disease in check; but as soon as their use was discontinued, the disease broke out again." ---------------------------------------------------------------- PS. I have access to Gleanings from Issue #1 in 1873 to the present. Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the > 1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening the > existence of beekeeping in the US? After reading through Wedmore, Philips, and others, during the thirties and forties is when cell size was increased larger and became common place. Just an interesting note. Comments? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:35:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of > the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% > Africanized. Interesting. I am starting to wonder what 'Africanized' means. I got to wondering about Dee's info at Barry's site since I mentioned it recently. I see that it has evolved considerably and is worth a read. As a teaser, I came across the below snippets at http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/index.htm and more specifically http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/viciousbee.htm I recommend setting aside a few hours to look through the site. --- here are some snippets --- Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture Research Lab Baton Rouge, La. Period: April 1 - Jun 30, 1960 Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential. ...Two shipments of semen were received from Kerr during the quarter. The first was especially unsatisfactory, causing death of all queens. The second has just been used and the queens have just started laying so that it will be some time before success or failure is known. If these are successful, it will mean that we now have bees which are 87.5 per cent adonsonii... and Entomology Research Branch, Apiculture research Branch, Southern States Bee Culture research Lab Baton Rouge, La. Period: Jan 1 - Mar 31, 1962 ...The Apis mellifera adonsonii. Stock that was lost during the late spring because of neglect has been re-imported with two successful shipments of semen from Dr Kerr, in Brazil. This stock will be available for tests by the various interested people by the end of the summer. Stock of over 90% adonsonii is now available and with a little inbreeding this will be taken to over 95%. allen My diary (including several days with the 'Killer Bees' of Southern Arizona http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ See vicious 'Africanized' bees worked by daring beekeepers at http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 21:43:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bill and All, Bill wrote; Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have capensis genes? My understanding is capensis genes And, if traits, are those same traits common with AHB in South Africa, at the boundary of AHB with Capensis? I did not realize there was cross breeding. DuPraw (1965) ,according to Ruttner (1975), was unable to delimit = adansonii from capensis on the basis of wing charactors. I know DNA = testing has been used for years in Arizona but the USDA has painted the = results with a broad brush and will only say bees are Africanized or = not. In my opinion if they are using the cubital index of wing venation = they are able to tell Africanization but not the difference between a = scut and capensis. Herein lies the problem in my opinion with cubital = index. I am going way beyond my area of expertise in the above .and = stand to be corrected. The easiest way to determine capensis is by simply examining workers. = Capensis is distinctly different from ALL other races of honey bees = because of the large numbers of ovarioles in the ovaries and the well = developed spermatheca. Although yet unproven many researchers believe = capensis workers have stronger pheromones than a European queen and can = cause European workers to supercede their own queen. There is a strong = possibility the capensis pheromone theory issue has already been proven = by now Anderson (1961) after examination of thousands of capensis laying = workers never found one worker with spermatoza yet when queenless the = capensis workers can soon lay eggs without fertilization which develop = into females and queens can be raised from the eggs. Mackenson (1943) = said the same phenomenon occurs in all races but only with a low = frequency. As a lifelong beekeeper I would replace the words *low = frequency* with very very rare . I do not believe I have ever seen a = case of bees of mine with laying workers raising a queen. Laying workers are a common sight in a bee operation. 10% and up of = queens in a commercial operation go queenless during heavy honey flow = and the result if not caught in time is laying workers. Scattered Drone = cells in worker pattern is all I ever see. Bill wrote: Your post seems to affirm my belief that the mechanics of the hive and beekeeping are low on the list compared to the bee itself. Good bees make good beekeepers. You are exactly right Bill ! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I have no direct experience with capensis. The information I present = comes from books, articles, and lectures and from researchers. Hopefully = others will comment . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: There are some rather lofty claims being made for downsizing to a smaller bee by people who have not yet even begun downsizing to the 4.9er bee. Maybe they are true; maybe they aren’t always. From a personal point of view, I think it’s worth looking into. >Microbes and mites, assisted by us, however inadvertently, or independently, WILL evolve to meet the new challenge they face, let alone the mutation and variation of the super stock itself in due time. Simply put, the struggle on both ends (beekeepers' and mites') is never-ending;... >Imagine how hard we will fight if we have to fight for the survival of our own species. So will the microbes and mites. Humdinger gave a couple of very good opinions (in my opinion!) Didn’t AFB become much more widespread with the advent of the large commercial beekeeping operations? We talk about getting back to “natural” ways of beekeeping. But is it “natural” to keep hundreds or even tens of hives in close proximity to one another? It seems to me that we have simply provided a very unique dining experience to a predator (whether it is the disease organism Paenibacillus larvae or Varroa destructor) in the host/predator relationship. Maybe by downsizing bees, we have actually tricked the predator for awhile. But, how long will it take before the predator adapts to its new host? When it does won’t it simply end up right back at the smorgasbord? Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 07:29:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. In particular, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES WHEN REPLYING. Contributions including quotes that are not absolutely necessary to understanding will usually be rejected WITHOUT NOTICE. FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: DaveHamilton Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB In-Reply-To: <200201261646.g0QGkqi17764@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Foul brood has been around a long time. In a 1568 book Nichel Jacob wrote of "foule brut". His treatment method was to cut out all the honey and comb, then keep the bees locked up for 3 days starve all the honey out of their coups. He then took a new hive and put it on the bottom of the stand setting his sick bees on top. He fed them good honey and said this always worked best when the "cherries were in bloom". Remember this was in 1568 before we had hives like today. It is interesting to note also that in Moses Quimby's book of 1853 gave the same procedure, almost 300 years later. At the time, AFB, EFB and sac brood were all lumped together into one disease. My point being that this bacteria has been around a long time so why haven't we solved the problem? I think you can find the answer for this is "beekeepers fears". In the early 1900's when people would write about a solutions to cure foul brood, they were lambasted in the journals by others who insisted that fire was the only answer. Inspectors also took this opinion as there was fear of the disease moving from farm to farm. Remember the time, every small farm had hives. This thinking stifled research. Think of this, in the November 1905 Gleanings magazine a FW Alexander wrote an article to report that he found some bees were better housekeepers than others and related this to cleaning up foul brood. He advocated requeening or simply caging the queen to interrupt brood rearing and give the hive time to be cleaned up. That was 100 years ago. I think all we have done with years of prophylactic terramycin treatment is hide the problem, its endemic to our bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:01:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Cave paintings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >she claims that she believes that the idea that there were no honey >bees in America before the white man is erroneous ... She cites cave >paintings, and also the fact that a search of Spanish records has >failed to confirm the long held belief that the Spanish brought the >first honey bees to the New World. > >Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original >American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky >trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail > >Dee claims that the thelytoky trait has been in the Lusby bees since >long before the AHB furor and that their bees actually do raise new >queens and that the Lusbys actually seek the thelytoky trait when >breeding their bees, since the hives will raise a queen even when at >the laying worker condition, and tolerate multiple queens. when >requeening, she just smokes a virgin in and claims good success. That ain't all they've been smoking. Based on *cave paintings* they have determined that there were honey bees here before the white man, that the workers of those bees could raise queens like the Cape bee, and they have descendents of these same bees in their outfit. Instead of the other explanation: the bees came from Mexico in the past ten years. Remember Occam's Razor? >Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% Africanized. The >black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits >with intercasts with laying worker queens. In short they are showing >all the Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman >went into great detail about the labs observations. At the end of >the talk I asked if she was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing >capensis traits. Her answer was "You are exactly right". Capensis >were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr and she believes the capensis >strain is alive and well in Arizona. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: beehive plans Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk Webster and I would like to build a "museum" yard. It would consist of various styles of beehives from the past and present. If anyone has such plans or drawings, dates/explanations/inventors/comments/etc, please send to the above address. Thanks, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:19:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That ain't all they've been smoking. Based on *cave paintings* they > have determined that there were honey bees here before the white man, > that the workers of those bees could raise queens like the Cape bee, > and they have descendents of these same bees in their outfit. > Instead of the other explanation: the bees came from Mexico in the past ten > years. Well. I have no evidence that they have been smoking anything except their bees. I found them sober and sincere and able to pull out references instantly on any topic. Be that as it may -- or may not, perhaps you failed to notice that your reply in no serious way addresses all the quotes you included with your post, so I am hoping you will deal with these issues one by one, and with documentation in a detailed and scientific manner, as you usually do. We will all benefit by a rational and reasoned rebuttal, now that we have been entertained by irony. There are many interesting things that are claimed by Lusbys, and one is that the thelytoky characteristic was there (and assumed by them to be normal) before the 'AHB' front went through and that Dee has videotape and other documentation in which she demonstrated this to USDA people before they were fully aware of thelyoky in Arizona bees, and had contracts with them on this topic to boot. Moreover some element of the stock they maintain, in addition to thelytoky, apparently demonstrates inexplicable morphometrics and unique veination, to this day. I understand that the cape bee is causing havoc with scutellata in South Africa, but the Lusbys seek this characteristic and find it works for them. Is this not odd? There is much to this whole matter that does not fit into a nice neat package or submit to neat classification. > Remember Occam's Razor? Yes, I'm glad you brought that up. This postulate is stated in many ways, but fundamentally requires that we give preference to whichever explanation that is the simplest but that also FITS ALL THE FACTS. Do we know all the facts? The Truth is Out There... allen The hand, having written, moved on... It was mentioned to me that some visitors to http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ did not immediately see the Lusby visit pictures. Time passes and now it is necessary to click back several pages in the diary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas While it is true that "beekeeping" has been carried out in the Americas for thousands of years, these were not the honey bee that we use, but bees from an entirely different genus (Melipona, Trigona). De Landa (1566) describes the stingless bees cultivated by the Maya and the wax they produce. Redfield and Villa Rojas (1934) describe bee-keeping and candlemaking in more detail. There is little doubt that candles provided a major source of lighting in pre-Columbian times. de Landa, Diego. Yucatan: Before and After Conquest. Dover Publications, Inc., 1978 (reprint and translation of 1566). Journal Ciencia y Desarrollo (CONACYT) Num. 69 (julio, agosto 1986), Autor: J.M. Labougle, J.A.Zozaya. -------------------------------- The History of the Beekeeping in Mexico In the new world the different species known as Apis was non-existent which is why the established cultures used another group of bees: The Meliponi or bees without sting. From this the mesamerican cultures were able to cultivate many varieties from the genus Trigona and Melipona -- one especially important a species called Melipona Beecheii Bennett, that is still in use in Yucatan and which in Mayan is called Xuna'an-Kab, Kolel'Kab o Po'ol-Kab. The Trajectory of the Meliponi culture in Yucatan is representative in the rest of the mesamerican area, where reached a high degree of complexity. It is thought that in the beginning the Mayan carried out the exploitation of the Meliponi by stealing honey from wild colonies. Later, they chopped down the trunks where the broodnests were located and relocated them under the eaves of their house and took care of them until the time of harvest. The protection of the natural honey nest taught the Meliponi beekeeper about the need for bee forge resources and their vulnerability to natural factors, such as rain and wind. In this way they learnt to protect their hives inside of huts which consisted of the functional equivalent of a modern apiary and put the trunks in a specially designed frame. This method was as efficient as the method with A. mellifera in Europe during the XVI, XVII and XVIII centuries, specially in terms of production and reproduction of the colonies, mechanisms to reduce swarming, etc. In the General Natural History of the Indies, described by Fernandez de Oviedo, the beekeeping activity and the intense care of the bees the Mayan had, during colonial days, it is evident as well, that the Meliponi beekeeping was more extensive in that time than a beekeeper in any European country. Honey was the principal resource used by the Mayans for the manufacture of "balche", a drink which included honey, balche cuttings (lonchocarpus longistylus pittier) and water. This beverage was used in religious festivities. The oldest document on beekeeping in the Peninsula is the Troano codice, which mentions the religious festivities of beekeepers would celebrate festivities principally to the God Ah-Muzencab to assure a good nectar flow. The honey, aside from being tribute that the Mayan peasants pay to the "halachuinics", was the objet of intense commerce carried out from Tabasco by sea to Honduras (Ula) and Nicaragua as well as the Mexican empire. In exchange for the honey and wax, the Mayans probably received cacao seeds and precious stones. With the arrival of the Spanish in America, could be thought that the common European bee (A.mellifera) was also introduced nevertheless, the metropolis always consider the sale of honey and wax, as a royal and exclusive monopoly of Spain. But due to the religious activities, there was a strong necessity to count on a larger wax supply. Impossible to cover from Spain. For this reason, the Spanish demanded to the cast of "halch-uinics" who occupied the Yucatan Peninsula to give them wax as a tribute. With the introduction of the sugar cane and the development of large sugar cane plantations in the New Spain Central Region, honey became a product of secondary importance. The necessity of using it as a sweetener was reduced and it was only used to make "balche". The extensions of the Meliponi culture in Yucatan, can be measured by the first tribute list that Spanish demanded in 1549: Out of 173 towns in Yucatan, only 5.8% did not pay with honey and wax. In total the list covered 2, 438 arrobas (approximately 29,300 kgs.) of wax and 276 arrobas (around 3,300 kgs.) of honey, which in terms of the existing population in the state of Yucatan, was equivalent to 1 arroba (12 kgs.) of wax for each twenty persons and 1 arroba of honey per each 295 persons. The intensity of the activity can be appreciated if you considered that one apiary hut usually counted on between 100 and 200 hive-logs. The wax forage by the Spanish was traded through the ports of Sisal in Yucatan and Campeche and from the port of Campeche to Veracruz and others from the Spanish empire. For this reason, to the M. Beecheii wax, which actually is a serum (a mixture of wax and propolis) it was known as Campeche wax. In general, the tributary economic structure and the explotation system of the Meliponi beekeeping was maintained during the entire colonization, that is why the Spanish never introduced the common European bee to the Maya regions, specially the Peninsula of Yucatan. The European Bee in Mexico The introduction of the European bee in Mexico was not direct. The evidence indicates that the raised of the European bees known as A. mellifera, were introduced first in Florida towards the end of the XVII century when this Peninsula was a Spanish possession, for the purpose of finding some economic benefit, because the economic contribution of that place to the Empire was minimum or non-existent. The initial experiments with bees in Florida was unsuccessful; in the middle of the XVIII century on the Peninsula could only be found wild population of common bees. Nevertheless in 1764 colonies of A. mellifera from Florida were taken to Cuba. This activity was of great importance and it had a fast dispersion on the island. It is very likely that this was when the European bee A. mellifera was introduced to New Spain from Cuba, but there is not a well known document that could give the date of its incorporation. F.J. Clavijero in his document of the History of Mexico, writes about the presence of this bee in the country, and some indirect evidences suggest that this introduction took place by the end of the 1760's or at the beginning of the 1770's and only on the central region. The arrival of the European bee in Mexico, did not imply its introduction to Yucatan, as a matter of fact in 1821, this kind of bee was not known in the region, because the wax commercialized between this Peninsula and the rest of the country, continued being the "Campeche wax" or the propolis cerum.The principal reason for this was probably resistance from the Meliponi culture beekeepers to work with stinging bees, besides there was not an economic need, because Meliponi beekeeping was very developed and totally covered the wax and honey demand. On the other hand, the Spanish concentrated their efforts on the development of henequen plantations and on the suppression of many serious social conflicts caused by the land concentration in land-grounds, dedicated to henequen production. http://netcall.com.mx/abejas/en/history.htm -------------------------------- Over 25,000 species of bees have been identified in the world, with perhaps as many as 40,000 species yet to be identified. In the continental United States scientists have found approximately 3,500 species of bees. The desert regions of northern Mexico and southern Arizona have the richest diversity of bees found anywhere in the world. Although there is no exact count, a bee scientist at the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center says there are between 1,000 and 1,200 species of bees within 100 miles of Tucson! You may wonder how this can be true. It turns out that not all bees are social bees that live in large families like bumble bees and honey bees. Most are less well-known bees called solitary bees, for example carpenter bees, leafcutter bees, alkali bees, digger bees or sweat bees. Female solitary bees build their own nests and provide food for only their own offspring. All bees collect pollen and nectar, and many of the solitary species are essential because they pollinate plants ignored by honey bees. What we call honey bees are represented by eight to 10 species in the genus Apis, a name from which comes the word for beekeeping (apiculture) and the word for a bee yard (apiary). The species of honey bee commonly found today in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the Americas is Apis mellifera, which means honey carrier. This name is not technically correct as the bees carry nectar from flowers which they then use to produce honey back in the hive. Only when the bees are moving to a new nest (swarming) do they carry honey. There are 24 races of Apis mellifera. The races have different physical and behavioral characteristics such as body color, wing length, and susceptibility to disease. But, since they are all of the same species, bees from one race can mate with bees from another race, creating even more variation within the honey bee universe. Caucasian bees ( A. mellifera caucasica) are known to be extremely docile, whereas the black or German bees ( A. mellifera mellifera) are known to overwinter well in severe climates. The African group of bees includes not only the largest number of geographic races (12), but also some of the best known, such as the notorious A. mellifera scutellata. It was a few queens of this highly defensive race that were brought into Brazil in 1957 and started the bees we now know as "Africanized honey bees." The true honey bee was not native to the Americas. Prior to Columbus, people in Central and South America collected honey from bees known as "stingless bees." Although stingless bees do actually lack a stinger, they are not completely defenseless. They can inflict painful bites with their mandibles. They also do not produce honey in the same quantity as A. mellifera. http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:04:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 In-Reply-To: <200201261804.g0QI4fi21109@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Allen Dick wrote: Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail, apparently turning up papers describing this trait being observed in European bees long before the current hubbub about cape bees. I am hoping that she will cite some here Reply: Before I start my reply to the above here I'd like to say that I have been in politics for many years in Arizona. To my knowledge no full state physical survey has been accomplished of managed beekeepers colonies for race/strain determination, nor has a full state field determination been accomplished either of the feral. Therefore to state that the whole state of Arizona is Africanized in supposition and not actual fact. Further, Technically under the law and by USDA definition only one parasitic mite found in a colony defines infestation, whether or not more are present. For Africanization the definition is the same. ONly one mating out of several for a queen determined by the USDA (and note I say determined by the USDA) to be African is Africanization. To my understanding from many legislative hearings and agricultural hearings, anything found to be different from stocks kept by the USDA as normal or routine in the USA is grounds for determining africanization. To my knowledge no full scale prior field testing of stocks both managed and feral was accomplished prior to *Africanization* in the USA.Therefore anything found to be differnet that cannot be identified may be currently wrongfully identified. Now having said this, Allen asked for references on Thelytoky for its scope. Perhaps it is about time to share this information that we have used in our beekeeping that the USDA has had access to for so long in light of recent events and politics. Hard to know where to begin as there is so much information to be had if one knows where to look. First of all Thelytoky was first found in Punic and Tunisian bees by Hewitt. Thelytoky has also been documented in Syrian and Cyprian bees. It has also been documented in both golden and three-banded Italian and Caucasian bees.My mind is also saying carnica bees, but I cannot put my finger on paperwork for that right now in my mess of paper right now so I will list what I hve managed to pull out so far for those of you that have access to libraries to go get and read and/or maybe use in research you may be doing. IMPOV it is not a hard trait to breed for and is necessary and beneficial on a biological beekeeping field mangement program, at least here Arizona,(we by the way are in a temperate zone) for part of our success in control of mites, secondary diseases, and winter carryover if you count breeding as 1/3 of the equation, diet `1/3 of the equation, and environment the final 1/3. References as follows: first and most important- the first discoverer: John Hewitt of Sheffield England: Journal of Horticulture for 1892, August 11, page 134 Anderson, John,(Scotland) American Bee Journal, Vol 58 June 1918, pg 192. Laying Workers Which Produce Female Offspring. Fyg,W.(Switzerland) The Bee World, March 1950, pg 17-19, Can Workers and Queens of the Honeybee be Raised from Unfertilized Eggs? Starr, Christopher K. (Athens GA,USA) Sociobiology Vol 13 No 3, 1987, pgs 287-293, Queen or Worker, Which is the Original Honey Bee? Taber, Steve, (USA) American Bee Journal, August 1989 pg 465-467, Laying Workers (references prior work in USDA with Poole and Makensen and Tucker and Us(Lusby)). Anderson, R.H. 1963. J Apic Res 2:85-92, The laying worker in the Cape bee, apis mellifera capensis. Butler, C.G. 1957 The control of Ovary Development in Worker Honeybees (Apis mellifera). Experientia 13: 256-257 Butler, C.G. and E.M. Fairey 1963. The role of the queen in preventing oogenesis in worker honeybees. J. Apic. Res 2: 14-18 DeGroot, A.P. and S. Voogd 1954. On the ovary development in queenless worker bees (Apis mellifera L.) Experientia 10: 384-385 Jack, R.W. 1917 Parthenogenesis amongst the workers of the Cape bee. Mr G.W. Onions experiments. Trans. Entomol. Soc. London 64: 396-403 Jay, S.C. 1970. The effects of various combinations of immature queen and worker bees on the ovary development of worker honey bees in colonies. Can J. Zool. 48: 169-173 Kropacova, S and H. Haslbachava 1970. The development of ovaries in worker honeybees in queenright colonies before and after swarming. J. Apic Res 9:65-70 Kropacova, S. and H. Haslbachava 1971. The influence of queenlessness and unsealed brood on the development of ovaries in worker honeybees J. Apic Res 10: 57-61 Mackensen, Otto 1943 (IMPORTANT ON METHODOLOGY AND HOW TO-Dee here for use with virgins and cells in field) The occurrence of parthenogenetic females in some strains of honey bees. J. Econ. Entomol. 36: 465-467 Moritz, R.F. A. 1984. Equilibrium of thelytokous and arrhenotokous parthenogenesis in populatoins of the honeybee (Apis mellifera) IN Advances in Invertebrate Reproduction, W. Engels, Editor. Elsevier, Amersterdam, New York, Oxford, pg 615 Onions, G. W. 1912. South African fertile worker bees. Agric J. Union of South Africa 7: 4446 Perepelova, L 1929 Laying workers, the ovipositing of the queens, and swarming. Bee World 10: 69-71 Ruttner, F. 1976 The Cape bee - A biological curiosity? In African Bees: Taxonomy, Biology, and Economic Use. D.J.C. Fletcher, Editor, Proceedings of the Apimondia Interntl Sym. Pretoria, S. Africa. Unk. 1977 The problem of the Cape bee (Apis mellifera Capensis Escholtz): Parthenogenesis - size of population - evolution. Apidologie 8: 281-294 Suomalainen, E. 1950Parthenogenesis in animals. Advances in Genetics 3: 193-253 Velthuis, H.H.W. 1970. Ovarian development in Apis mellifera worker bees. Entomol. Exp. and Appl. 13: 377-394 Verma, S. and F. Ruttner 1983. Cytological analysis of the Thelytokous partenogenesis in the Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis Escholtz). apidologie 14: 41-57 Ruttner, F. 1976, Genetics, Selection and Reproduction of the Honey Bee, Symposium on Bee Biology, Moscow Aug 1976, Apimondia Publishing House, Bucharest, pg 120 Male and Female parthenogenesis of the honeybee. Woyke, J (Warsaw) 1961-1966, Paid for by USA Project: E21-ENT-7 Grant # FG-PO-124-61 funding, The development Maturation and Production of Drones and Natural mating of Virgin and Drone Honeybees. 108 pages long. Woyke, J (Warsaw)1966- 1971, paid by USA Project: E21-ENT-15,Grant # FG-PO-196 funding, Biology of Reproduction as a Basis for Production of new varieties of honeybees. 154 pages long. Woyke, J. (warsaw) 1978-1985, paid by USA project: Pl-ARS-85 grant # FG-Po-365, Genetic Basis of Reproduction in the Honey Bee. 255 pages long. For Ed and my paper in conjunction with Dr Hoffman and Dr Erickson in May 1991 with work done in the 1980s under USDA western Region contract I work and Alband Calif signed,prior to Africanization declared in Arizona in the mid-1990s, please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm I will close with saying, last night Ed and I were called by Bill Gafford Vice President of the Alabama State Beekeepers Association with whom we have had a long standing relationship as Lusby Family roots go back to New Site, Alabama in the mid 1800s.We have been invited to speak at their upcoming 105th anniversary meeting on Sept 21-22, 2002 in Greenville, Alabama, just like we did in 1997 at their 100th anniversary meeting. Subject Matter will be by me: 4.9mm regresson, biological beekeeping/breeding from the field side and yes, MAJOR emphasis on Thelytoky with private copies of video I have from the 1980s I took showing actual thelytoky laying workers and how they behave. For more informaton call Bill Gafford on attending at: 1-334-382-0117. It's sure to be another great Alabama meeting. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:32:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: afb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been following the trail of discussion of afb on this site and = cannot believe where it is going. I thought most of the correspondents = were capable and reasoning people. \ AFB is a spore forming bacillus. \spores can stay dormant in excess of 30 years \one scale has over 4000000 spores in it \it takes approx 100000 spores to start an infection \afb is spread by bee keeping practices AND ROBBING infected honey. = Think of your neighbouring beekeepers, your costing them a fortune. \spores are not killed with antibiotics \hives with no resistance will show physical symptoms of AFB \if you keep AFB infected hives you are giving it to your neighbour and = spreading it through you outfit and yes it will be endemic at this stage = ( just like small pox, plague,cholera,typhoid,measles,ect ect were) and = yes you will lose a lot of gear,it will COST YOU a lot of time and MONEY = to get it under control. \ it can be bought under control when you have a thorough understanding = of its biology \ subclinical infections ie those that dont show physical symptoms can = be detected with a very simple culture test and those hives can be = managed as a separate unit ( I do this myself) \ help yourselves, remove susceptible strains of bees to AFB, burn them = and their frames ( the ultimate in selection, natural selection means = AFB will kill them, AFB survival mechanisms mean it will spread when = that hive is robbed, restocked or the gear used on other hives ) \ resistant bees wont show afb and wont get burnt. \ treat your box's lids bottom boards to kill the spores (dip in = paraffin wax @ 160 degrees Celsius for 15 minuets or irradiate ) This gives the next lot of bees a clean start. \ dont play with AFB it will always come back and bite you.=20 Shaun Cranfield and yes I am from New Zealand slcranfield@xtra.co.nz=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Pollen I live in the Middle Georgia area and my bees have already started to bring in a good bit of pollen. The majority of it is bright yellow to green/yellow but today I noticed they were bringing in a very bright red pollen (fire engine red). Does anyone in the group know where this might be coming from? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:17:48 -0600 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200201280010.g0S0AYi00568@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:02:44 -0500, Tim Smith wrote: >Does anyone in the group know where this might >be coming from? Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish tubular flower, member of the mint family. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper Carencro LA 1000+ Hives _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:37:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Cornick wrote: > 200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hanging > so thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, > Find anything in that. Boy, does that sound like Tucson area bees!! -and people wondered why we didn't requeen more colonies!! - John Edwards, now in Vancouver, WA, and loving it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:29:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Pollen Comments: To: Charles Harper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles Harper" > Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish tubular flower, > member of the mint family. I concur, though I would describe it as red-orange pollen. You can see photos of henbit at http://pollinator.com/gallery/February/february_flowers.htm Maple pollen is gray-green-faint yellow. Maples are just starting to open. It's been dry here so there's not as much mustard as usual (farmers are cutting the fields early). mustard pollen is pale yellow. I saw japanese honeysuckle open in a yard this afternoon, and there have been dandelions all winter this year. Camelias are nearly done. My home bees worked the daylights out of my camelia. Another beekeeper reports seeing alder in bloom as well. A lot of pollen is coming into the hives, and a little nectar shakes out too. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:04:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any suggestions on planning and procedures now to prevent swarms. Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:08:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Boy, does that sound like Tucson area bees!! -and people wondered why we didn't > requeen more colonies!! Maybe I was there on a good day, but I imagine you saw the pictures at http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick and I wasn't wearing a veil when taking some of them -- or wearing gloves while inspecting them. What do you think explains the wide discrepancy in reports and experience? AFAIK, at least some of the bees we were handling were from Tucson city swarms. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:55:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Rodney Farrar" The subject gets beat to death every year, so a search of the Bee list archives could garner a lot of info: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Two basic principles: 1. A queen, in her first year, is unlikely to swarm, unless the brood chamber gets crowded. 2. A second-year queen is programed to swarm, and you most likely will not stop her, only delay her, by swarm control techniques. Many times a delayed old queen will swarm later, out of season, and the swarm has little chance of survival, plus the original colony has a hard time as well, trying to get a queen mated when it's not the normal season. I figure the bees want to reproduce, so why fight it? I help them reproduce, by making nucs, trying to be a few days ahead of their schedule. They they are satisfied, having reproduced, and settle back down to work. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:25:44 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: acetone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I had a bucket of cappings that were haphazardly rinsed before being sealed. Upon opening, after some time, I found that the wax cappings had a very strong odor of acetone which overpowered that of ethanol. Is this 'acetone production' an unusual occurrence? John Fiji Islands ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 05:04:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: Aggressive bees In-Reply-To: <200201280500.g0S502i10799@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I waited to see if someone will drop something like this (since there is beekeepers from New Zealand on the List): Two years ago NATO had lunched air strike on Yugoslavia, which is my the neighbouring country. In the same time, for approximately 2 weeks, large part of my country (Macedonia) were under big (I don't know how big) ozone hole. This (if not first) was very rare occasion: I remember that for 15 minutes walking without hat under the sun, I started to fill headache. In about same time - for the sake of my neighbours, I couldn't work my bees because the bees were unbelievable aggressive. The supers were empty but all the bee yard was smelling like the best honey flow is in progress - the mountain meadow plants were in full blooming. The reason was not local as I was inclined to think at that same time, because after that (in autumn), many beekeepers from all over the country had reported the same aggressive behaviour in their bees and empty supers, but... I am only one who speculate that reason was in extra UV radiation - all others were convinced that reason was NATO strike (low flight of helicopters, radiation from bombs and missiles, etc. etc.) (...in the same season beekeepers from Yugoslavia reported that they had one of their best honey years!) Anyone who had find any correlation/indication between aggressiveness of bees and ozone holes (extra UV radiation)? ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing that I do is to take my best second year queens and make nucs out of them. Kent Stienburg Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of > the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% > Africanized. > The black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits > with intercasts with laying worker queens.In short they are showing all the > Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman went into great > detail about the labs observations. At the end of the talk I asked if she > was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing capensis traits. her answer > was "You are exactly right". Capensis were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr > and she believes the capensis strain is alive and well in Arizona. I guess the most obvious questions that this report raises are these: 1.) IF the bees in Arizona are Africanized (meaning AFAIK that at least one of the hives in each yard contain at least one bee that can be traced back to recent African origin), and IF these bees migrated all the way up from Brazil over a period of a half century or so, then why, has no one else noticed this trait? These bees have been examined in great detail and at great expense by an impressive list of US and non-US scientists over that time. 2.) One the other hand, was this characteristic diseminated with queens bred by the USDA and distributed in the USA? 3.) Could this thelytoky be indigenous to Arizona? It was first brought to USDA attention by Arizona beekeepers before anyone else was aware of it, and before the AHB was known to hit Arizona -- if I have my facts straight. Maybe Dee will fill in the time line and documentation. 4.) Why has the USDA witheld this info this long? (Assuming it did). 5.) If the Arizona origin is not plausible, then could this thelytoky be the result of an unreported separate introduction of bees into the Southern US or Mexico by a beekeeper a decade or more ago? 6.) Could this newly observed thelytoky effect simply be the concentration and expression of an existing characteristic of all honey bees caused by the environment, or by the selection by beekeepers, in a specific region. My understanding is that the fire ant shifted gears some years ago to mutate into the version that currently has proven to be a scourge. The main differernce between the new Super Ant and the old version is that the current fire ant now tolerates multiple queens. Could this not be a somewhat similar adaption? 6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: New research program at Cornell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following was posted to another list: Fellow Beekeepers, Things are looking up! Recommended reading: ITHACA, N.Y. -- Cornell University will be the home for a new Honeybee Genetics and Integrated Pest Management Center that will study the continuing threat from deadly parasitic mites and Africanized honeybees. The center is funded by a $1.8 million grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Initiative for Future Agriculture and Food Systems. The grant will establish the largest university-based, honeybee research and extension infrastructure in the country. The new center will focus on developing solutions to the two major threats to honeybees, insects that are responsible for agricultural pollination valued in the billions of dollars. The director is Nicholas W. Calderone, Cornell assistant professor of entomology, assisted by project scientists Walter S. Sheppard of Washington State University in Pullman and Jeff Pettis of the USDA-Agricultural Research Service, Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville, Md. Other supporters of the program include the USDA Sustainable Research and Agricultural Education program, the USDA Northeast Integrated Pest Management program, the New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets, and the Organic Farming and Research Foundation. Most of the pollination for more than 90 commercial crops grown throughout the United States is provided byApis mellifera , the honeybee. The value from the pollination to agricultural output in the country is estimated at $14.6 billion annually. Growers rent about 1.5 million colonies each year to pollinate crops. The introduction of the parasitic bee mite Varroa destructor in 1987 and the invasion of the Africanized honeybee in 1990 have threatened honeybee colonies. "Parasitic mites are currently managed with pesticides, but as with other agricultural pests, the mite population has developed resistance to these pesticides and beekeepers will soon be without effective treatments," says Calderone. He notes that the extremely defensive Africanized honeybee could be even more devastating. This honeybee is well established in the southwestern United States and is spreading northward into the Central Valley area of California and into the southeastern United States, says Calderone. These are the principal queen and package-bee producing areas that supply beekeepers with new stock to replace losses due to parasitic mites. "The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in these areas will result in restrictions on the shipment of bees from these areas. This, in turn, will severely limit the ability of beekeepers to restock their operations," he says. Migratory pollination, which provides the majority of pollination services, might be particularly hard hit because migratory bee operators typically spend the winter in the South and travel throughout the United States to pollinate crops during the spring and summer. The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in the southern states will result in restrictions on the movement of migratory operations throughout the country, Calderone says. In its evaluation of methods for controlling parasitic mites, the new center will emphasize the development of mite-resistant stocks of honeybees. The breeding program will be the first to use honeybees to integrate traditional animal-breeding methods with modern molecular technologies. Calderone says there will be an emphasis on identification and the use of molecular markers for mite resistance and other desirable traits. "Marker-facilitated selection offers the first real opportunity to transform beekeeping from an industry that has become dependent on a growing number of expensive pesticides and antibiotics into one that is free of chemical inputs and that is economically viable in today's competitive global marketplace," says Calderone. Because the breeding populations will be maintained using closed- mating technology, they will be kept free of Africanized honeybee genes, thereby providing an unadulterated source for commercial queen and package producers. The grant also provides funds to develop a regional extension program in apiculture and to coordinate extension activities with institutions in other regions. The Cornell University Master Beekeeper Program, which Calderone established in 1998, will serve as the centerpiece for the expanded extension program. ______________ Lloyd Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:44:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. Can anyone help me. I live in west Texas in the Midland Odessa area. Lubbock is 95 miles north of me. Thanks Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <002e01c1a7fd$05d38fc0$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/28/02 06:09 AM, you wrote: >6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in >scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? Allen, In what way would this be a boon? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kdmalone Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, > I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. Can anyone help me. I live in west Texas in the Midland Odessa area. Lubbock is 95 miles north of me. > I would use brewers yeast for a substitute and to get bulk supply I would call up animal food warehouses. Those that sell feed for horses usually sell it in large quantities. People who raise animals will use it to supplement the feed. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.317 / Virus Database: 176 - Release Date: 1/21/02 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in > >scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? > In what way would this be a boon? This characteristic -- if it works the way Lusbys claim it works for them -- has been part of a previous wish list discussed here on BEE-L. The queens from laying workers aspect is just a bonus -- sorta like life insurance for a hive. The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees tolerate multiple queens. Lusbys claim to smoke in virgins successfully and get multi-queen hives as a result. Here are links to previous BEE-L posts on the topic of bees tolerating multiple queens and why we would like to have such bees.. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9712A&L=bee-l&P=R1246 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105A&L=bee-l&P=R701 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105A&L=bee-l&P=R1187 Tony Lalonde of Saskatchewan spoke at the AHPA convention recently, and he talked about using a vanilla spray technique to chase mated queens into already queen-right colonies. This was part of his talk on how to get 400 pound crops. Interestingly, Tony uses the same colour and marking selection criteria to recognise the queens carrying the characteristic (multi queen tolerance) as Dee does. I am sure they have never spoken and their bees are from completely different sources as far as anyone knows. Tony's bees are in Saskatchewan Canada and were taken over by him from an old European beekeeper who had maintained that particular stock for decades or more previously. (The exact timespan has slipped my mind -- I need to listen better) . Of course I am speculating here a bit, as we love to do on BEE-L, and we all know any such unusual bee behaviour could carry a downside. -- just consider South African scutellata problems with cape bees. Nonetheless, the risks are not proven here in America. Dee and Ed seem to be doing just fine lately, and that's thanks partly to the thelytoky, they say. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <009301c1a813$4a101ee0$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees >tolerate multiple queens. Allen, I have seen this many times. We mark the queens so that we can tell if they have been superceded. Often the marked queen and her daughter are present. I have requeened hives and discovered three laying queens. I have combined colonies and had two marked queens cohabiting for months. The idea that there is always only one queen is erroneous. As far as workers raising queens, I have never heard that this is a good thing, but we don't want supersedure in our hives in any case. Now, I have been in beekeeping long enough to know that supersedure queens can be excellent in terms of vigor and longevity, but in a breeding program where you are trying to control the type of bee you maintain (hygienic or whatever) they are a pain in the ass. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bee Breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Allen Dick writes: >I got to wondering about Dee's info at Barry's site since I >mentioned it recently. I see that it has evolved considerably and >is worth a read. http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/index.htm On the subject of bee breeding, they have this to say: >1. COLOR. >Color is of paramount importance in the breeding of honeybees. What >price has industry paid for down-playing the importance of color in >bee breeding to the detriment of our colonies, for color delineates >hot-weather (yellow) bees from cold-weather (black/brown) bees or >put in other words, - Tropical Zone bees from Temperate Zone bees. >This is a major natural biological division within nature and >therefore must be observed in bee breeding. This is in apparent contradiction to information that I have seen. Not only is there no such thing as a north/south color delineation, but the various races vary considerably in color within their own populations. And traditionally, breeders in America have tried to enhance these color differences: >The color of the Italian bee we know in North America is usually >rather light -- a somewhat muddy yellow -- well defined light bands >of yellow on the abdomen. In Italy this bee shows greater variation >in color, usually being darker than its western counterpart. ... In >shape and size the Caucasian bee resembles the Carniolan. It tends >to be brown in color, with brown spots... Like the Italian bee in >its homeland, the Caucasian bee varies in color more at home than in >America where it has selectively been bred for grayness. ... The >Black Bee of North America has varied from black to brown depending >on what part of Europe contributed it. Just as the Italian bee >varies in color and disposition, the Black-Brown bee varies. ... The >Cyprian bee is smaller than the Italian and more reddish. The >Sicilian bee is black in color, it is closely related to the black >bee of North Africa. > >The Tellian bee is found in North Africa, north of the Sahara and >from Libya to the Moroccan coast. ... Brother Adam says it is jet >black. The Rif bee of Morocco is between dark and yellow. ... The >Egyptian bee has striking gray-white stripes on the worker bees. >Apis mellifera nubica is perhaps the smallest bee measured to date. >Its habitat is the Sudan. It is a very yellow bee; the body is >short. Apis mellifera scutellata is called the yellow African bee. >It is an intensely aggressive bee. Apis mellifera monticola is a >mountain bee, large, dark and very gentle. It thrives in the >Tanzanian mountains. -- from ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture Brother Adam states in 1983: >As we can see, Nature has in no way produced the "best bee" or an >"ideal bee", still less a race if bees which answers all the desire >and needs of the modern beekeeper. The results of evaluating the >different races makes one thing clear: every race has its advantages >and it drawbacks, its good and bad characteristics linked together >and emphasized in a host of different ways, which have been >determined arbitrarily and by chance. Each race comprises a number >of good and indifferent strains, with by far the majority in the >latter category. > >Breeding experiments up to the present have bee have been confined >to the improvement and intensification of uniformity of particular >races, but these will never be adequate to meet the demands of the >future. Inbreeding brings about in the honeybee a serious >deterioration of vitality which raises insurmountable problems in >many directions. -- from "In Search of the Best Strains of Bees. In the SMRT lines that I have seen, the color is all over the map. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:31:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: More on Cornell research grant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the full press release on the Cornell grant, that contains important additional information compared with that sent earlier, see http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-01/cuns-ueh011002.php Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:50:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. > bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. > I would use brewers yeast for a substitute and to get bulk supply I would > call up animal food warehouses. Those that sell feed for horses usually sell > it in large quantities. People who raise animals will use it to supplement > the feed. That is not necessarily the brewers yeast that a beekeeper can use. Many of these, especially cheap ones contain corn and other nutrients upon which the yeast was raised and are too low in protein to be much help. The additional components may actually be harmful. You want pure brewers yeast. It should cost about 50c US a pound in 50 pound bags in skid lots. The manufacturer of BEEPOL also has yeast, and produce it in Texas, but say they are sold out for this year. I have info on pollen patty making and yeast at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/Pollen/MakePollenPatties.htm and, of course a search from http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/Pollen/MakePollenPatties.htm using brewer yeast as a key and substring checked will give you 68 hits, many of which may be valuable. We have discussed yeast and patties fairly thoroughly here on BEE-L (but we still could use any more good info anyone has) and this is one case where a search of the archives could save someone headaches from getting the wrong stuff. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:56:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Rodney. Installing a queen excluder directly above the bottom board will cause swarms to self-retrieve. You must inspect to remove queen cells every 10 days if you use this method. See "Self Retrieving Swarms" Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford" Subject: Fwd: Bees&Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am forwarding your message to Bee-L for a possible response. Malcolm T. Sanford >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:40:35 -0800 (PST) >From: Nicusor Sur >Subject: Bees&Beekeepers >To: Apis_Newsletter-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, beeactor2001@yahoo.com, > beeactor@earthlink.net > >Dear Mr.Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford >My name is Nicusor Sur , I am a hobbist beekeeper from Romania . >I am a subscriber at Apis Monthly Beekeeping Newsletter and I'd like to >continue receiving >information from you . >I am very interested to learn esspecially about organic-biodynamic >beekeeping , that's why I >started to travel around the world and work in organic apiaries . Now I >work in an commercial >organic apiary from New Zealand and I plan to travel to United States in >March-April to work there >for a few months . > I'd like to come in United States in the Spring and work there for a few > months .Do you know some >real beekeepers , interested to employ a keen worker ? I'd like to work >for a commercial beekeeper >which really love and respect the bees . If you know someone , please tell >me . >If you wish , please visit my on-line beekeeping photo album at >http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/sur_nicusor/lst?.dir=/BEEKEEPING&.view=t . >I wish you all the best ! >Sincerelly yours , >Nicusor (Nick) Sur > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! >http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:11:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: screened bottom In-Reply-To: <200108260034.f7Q0YlQ04519@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200108260034.f7Q0YlQ04519@listserv.albany.edu>, stimey writes >Can anybody tell me what the threshold is in central NY, for varroa = >counts on screened bottom boards with stick board? I tested 5 hives out = >of 10 and had low counts in 24hrs. One hive had 1mite, Two had 3 One had = >4 and One had 5. I need to decide if I need to treat or wait till = >spring. Does each mite that drops represent 100 more or is it higher. = >All hives are avg. or stronger in two deep with from one to 4 shallows. = >By the way goldenrod flow slow, not seeing any asters yet, conditions = >dry. =20 Did you ever get an answer to this one. I don't remember seeing one on the list? If you did, would you let me know. Otherwise I shall use our Government's (old MAFF, new DEFRA) formulae to work it out. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:34:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Bees in a wall in Dallas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Dear all I received this email and ask if you'd help find a beekeeper near enough to help. I told her about 3 options, 2 involving a beekeeper attending (open the wall and remove or use the cone entrance method with another hive beside). I live in Red Oak Tx which is a southern suburb of Dallas Tx. We bought a trailer house and it has bees in the outside wall by our breaker box and phone lines. Makes a bit of a hassle to work on things. How would I get rid of them? I am not a bee keeper and don't know of anyone. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lynn Davis milto:"glitz" -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:24:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciated your taking the time to find the information and to post it to BEE-L Generally, when material is being cited from the www, BEE-L guidelines request simply giving URLs rather than cut-and-paste entire texts, since the text is available from the original site and not all members will want to receive or read the bulk of the material. This may be something we need to reconsider, though since websites change and some things like this are nice to have in the archives. > http://netcall.com.mx/abejas/en/history.htm > http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf1.html One thing I noticed is that, although you usually cite authors, the two sites given here appear to be anonymous. That is a shame, since we have no way of knowing whether the work there is researched or simply a regurgitation of the same old sources. Historical information is often hard to interpret, since one author will quote or paraphrase (or even interpret) another and so on and so on, resulting in what appears to be numerous distinct sources being, in fact, only one source. It is possible, even likely, that you are right, but there is always the chance that there is some unreported information, or that such terms as 'common bees' in one of the articles has a meaning other than what we understand. In reading the accounts from the past, we must always make assumptions --and we all know about assumptions. It is always fun to speculate as long as we recognise that we are speculating, and as long as we wait for good proof before believing too strongly the products of our own speculation. Thanks for keeping us thinking. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The idea that there is always only one queen is erroneous. > > As far as workers raising queens, I have never heard that this is a > good thing, but we don't want supersedure in our hives in any case. > Now, I have been in beekeeping long enough to know that supersedure > queens can be excellent in terms of vigor and longevity, but in a > breeding program where you are trying to control the type of bee you > maintain (hygienic or whatever) they are a pain in the ass. You hit the nail on the head here and there is the crux of the debate. * Some (most) beekeepers want bees they can just keep the old way, with limited visits a year, simple operations, and rugged bees that care for themselves. They want non-patented bees that can move into empty hives and which can beat off disease. In this scenario, maximum honey production is not the primary concern, since -- if the expenses are lower -- less honey is needed to finance and maintain the operation than in a highly managed operation. Moreover, since chemicals are not required, the demand should theoretically be better for their honey, and premium prices attained. This group considers any bee that is prolific and takes care of itself, but which can be managed and produce a decent harvest to be a godsend. * Others want bees that can be highly tuned for special purposes and which can support a bee breeding program, a technically developed, proprietary and exclusive queen rearing industry, plus industry meetings on all levels -- and highly equipped government labs with lots of specialists. Such bees *must* be tinkered with constantly and treated for diseases and protected from the neighbouring (more successful feral) bees, etc. They *must* produce exceptional output of bee products and require manufactured and licensed products to support all the people in the chain. This group considers any bee that is too prolific and uncontrollable to be a threat and a nuisance. * The latter group has IMO, dominated beekeeping media, thought, research and breeding over the past century. * There are things to be said for either approach, but we are in a new century and millennium with an information flow that has escaped, for a short while at least, the control of the monied interests. Consumers are reconsidering their dependencies and shifting allegiance solely on the basis of what has merit to them personally, rather than what supports the information hierarchy. Rather than only receiving information that supports a system which generates revenue for media and manufacturers and researchers, as in the past, we now can get information that makes a profit for no one but us. This leaves a lot of people out in the cold. What Wal-Mart and Home Depot did to small stores and layers of distributors and wholesalers, the internet is doing to the information business, including manufacturers, magazines, universities and researchers. Information is on the loose and traditional interests are running like hell to try to figure out how they can get back on the (gravy) train. Personally, I don't know where I stand on this, but it sure is fun to watch. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:08:02 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Aggressive bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >for approximately 2 weeks, large >part of my country (Macedonia) were under big (I don't >know how big) ozone hole. >In about same time - for the sake of my neighbours, I >couldn't work my bees because the bees were >unbelievable aggressive. >... I am only one who speculate that reason >was in extra UV radiation - all others were convinced >that reason was NATO strike (low flight of >helicopters, radiation from bombs and missiles, etc. >etc.) >Anyone who had find any correlation/indication between >aggressiveness of bees and ozone holes (extra UV >radiation)? The Antarctic ozone hole has always been more severe & widespread than the Arctic version - an injustice in that most of the chemicals (mainly freons) causing the ozone deplation are from the N hemisphere. We get (if I recall offhand) 10 - 15% extra UV flux, in summer. I suppose the ozone depletion over the descendants of Alex the Great - at the same latitude as us - is less than we've got. But I've not seen any maps of ozone density for that part of the world. My guess would be that this is at most a minor contributor to aggressive behaviour. But we don't know; it's just another example of how neglected applied ecology is among govts. I add that the other suggested causes, for Macedonia, are also on their face implausible. Better look for other causes, I reckon. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:01:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lennard Pisa Subject: AFB and NaOH dipping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Bee-listers, In stead of flaming my second hand though really good hives from Germany my "beefather" suggested dipping in a strong sodium hydroxide solution for about half an hour. Is this treatment good enough to tackle AFB spores? (hope so, otherwise I might be evaporating a lot of perizin into the air if flaming is still necessarry, as the boxes come from a deceased beekeeper who had big bottles of this pesticide in his work room) kind regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:23:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour In-Reply-To: <200201281659.g0SGxwi01792@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone determined the effect of the phyto-estrogens contained in soy flour on bees? We had the only non-productive rabbits in the world after feeding them a ration which used soy in place of bypass animal protein. It took me quite awhile to figure out the probable cause. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:47:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: This characteristic -- if it works the way Lusbys claim it works for = them -- has been part of a previous wish list discussed here on BEE-L. The = queens from laying workers aspect is just a bonus -- sorta like life insurance = for a hive. Capensis has been kept in SA by beekeepers for years in the Cape area. = Although not a bee I would want for my operation I suppose if capensis = is all you have got to work with then have at it. There can be no queen = improvement program with capensis. Allen wrote: Of course I am speculating here a bit, as we love to do on BEE-L, and we = all know any such unusual bee behaviour could carry a downside. -- just = consider South African scutellata problems with cape bees. At least Allen is keeping a level head (as usual). If you look at the = cape bee(capensis) in South Africa you see as per Barry Seargent's posts = that capensis WILL take over the hive of any other race of bees. Even = scut hives! Dr. Hoffman explained in great detail what they are seeing = in Arizona. The capensis workers enter the hive during a honey flow. All = hives will admit workers with pollen or nectar during a honey flow. The = capensis workers start laying their own eggs. The capensis pheromones = are stronger I believe than European queens so the Existing queen is = replaced with a capensis queen RAISED by the capensis intercaste = workers. After time the hive is capensis. This same scenario could play = out all over the U.S..=20 The end result would be all hives would be capensis. A typically low = honey production bee which CANNOT be bred for traits which bee breeders = breed for BECAUSE of the thelytoky trait. Allen wrote: Nonetheless, the risks are not proven here in America.=20 You are right we have only got one state completely capensis now. Let us = wait till all of California is capensis before deciding if capensis is a = good or bad thing.=20 Dee and Ed seem to be doing just fine lately, and that's thanks partly to the thelytoky, = they say. I certainly wish Dee & Ed the best and wish the USDA had looked at = their hives earlier if capensis genes are the cause of the large = amount of thelytoky going on in their bees. To sum things up beekeepers = do keep capensis bees for honey production in South Africa. Problem = is there next door beekeeper has to keep capensis also because the cape = bee will take over all over strains of bees. Do the Lusby's keep any = other strains of bees other than the black super bee? If I was with the = USDA I would bring in 20 hives of European bees into the Lusby's area = and see how long it took for those hives to be taken over. by thelytoky = bees Dee and Ed (backed up by Allen) are saying the same thing Dr. Hoffman = reported at the convention or am I missing something.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all the = characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:55:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <00cd01c1a820$4f662a80$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >You hit the nail on the head here and there is the crux of the debate. I think the debate that I have entered into is a bit different than what you outlined. I think that some people think that they can solve problems by working in isolation and scoffing at what others have spent a lifetime discovering. The most these people can ever achieve is to develop a system that may work for them, but most likely will not be exportable (not without them going along with it as consultants). On the other hand, there are those who are trying to find solutions that will work for everyone. The effort to find hygienic or disease resistant bees does not lead to specialized bees which require coddling. This effort seeks a more vigorous bee that will work everywhere from Russia to Louisiana, from Maine to Macedonia. Because most of the same problems exist in all these areas: mites, bacteria, and the need to have bees that pay their own way. There are plenty of examples of cooperation in the world, where people stop thinking about me and start thinking about us. The New Zealand AFB plan is a good example of it. No doubt there were dissenters, doubters, but they managed to come up with a national plan. I doubt if we will ever have a national plan for the health of honey bees in this country. We don't even have a national health plan for people. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas In-Reply-To: <00b001c1a818$4c8bdb00$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:24 -0700 1/28/02, Allen Dick wrote: >One thing I noticed is that, although you usually cite authors, the >two sites given here appear to be anonymous Right. Sorry about the long posts, but I just wanted to make clear that beekeeping has a very long history in the Americas -- but NOT with Apis mellifera. If Apis mellifera had been here already, the Spanish, Dutch, etc. would have had no need to import it. According to Eva Crane, in "The Archaeology of Beekeeping" (pp. 61-62) "honey hunting and beekeeping in hives were already developed in prehistoric times, although not many records of it survive. There are no native honeybees in America, and the bees used were various species of stingless bee (Meliponini); they build rather amorphous nests from which honey and wax were harvested. The earliest surviving written account is by Bishop Diego de Landa who arrived in Yucatan in 1549." Another thing my long quote emphasized was the need for beeswax by the Spanish church. They were ready to exploit whatever sources of wax were here, but finding them inadequate, they undertook to import bees from Europe. If the New World had suitable bees, the explorers definitely would have adopted them, like they did tomato, potato, tobacco, and other New World treasures. Further, if some form of Apis Mellifera had been here, someone would have seen it and written about it. But even so, unless it was extremely useful, it would have been supplanted by the Italian bee. Remember, the black bee was brought here first, and then when the Italian bee craze hit, it was all but replaced by "Golden Italians". (For those who tuned in late, this discussion relates to a comment that honeybees may have been in the Americas before the conquest by the Europeans and that the descendents of such bees may still exist in Arizona.) -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:53:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone determined the effect of the phyto-estrogens contained in soy > flour on bees? I know we select toasted soy flour to ensure that some digestion inhibiting factors are killed. As for the phyto-estrogens, I have no idea whether these chemicals have any significance to non-mammals. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: acetone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John: Was the door acetone or acetic acid? Acetic acid is often produced by bacterial action on ethanol, which is the product of fermentation of honey. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:32:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: New research program at Cornell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lloyd and All, I read this post on the other list. I can't help but wonder about all = the reference to Africanized bees below. Why doesn't the USDA tell us = what they already know about AHB from over 16 years of study. Until Dr. = Hoffman spoke up last week I thought Africanized bees were a very minor = issue. Certainly not worth half of a 1.8 million dollar grant.=20 Genetics and Integrated Pest Management Center that will study the continuing threat from deadly parasitic mites and AFRICANIZED honeybees. = The center is funded by a $1.8 million grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Initiative for Future Agriculture and Food Systems. The grant will establish the largest university-based, honeybee research and extension infrastructure in the country. The new center will focus on developing solutions to the TWO MAJOR=20 threats to honeybees, insects that are responsible for agricultural pollination valued in the billions of dollars.=20 He notes that the extremely defensive Africanized honeybee could be even more devastating. This honeybee is well established in the southwestern United States and is spreading northward into the Central Valley area of California and into the southeastern United States, says Calderone. These are the principal queen and package-bee producing areas that supply beekeepers with new stock to replace losses due to parasitic mites. "The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in these areas will result in restrictions on the shipment of bees from these areas. This, in turn, will severely limit the ability of beekeepers to restock their operations," he says. Bob wrote: Is capensis causing all the problems for the NEW Africanized concern? = Although 1.8 million grant sounds like a huge amount of money consider = there are 525,000 acres of Almonds in California with projected acres of = 595,000 in the near future. Each needs 2 hives per acre for pollination. = Almonds WILL NOT produce without bees. Grower returns at present are = around one billion dollars. I have been told Almonds are the top ag = export.=20 In my opinion the thought of restrictions for africanized reasons Is rather ludicrous. What are the USDA not telling us and why do they = think they can restrict the spread of AHB in California when the USDA = has not been able to stop the spread of AHB anyplace else.=20 Migratory pollination, which provides the majority of pollination services, might be particularly hard hit because migratory bee operators typically spend the winter in the South and travel throughout the United States to pollinate crops during the spring and summer. The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in the southern states will result in restrictions on the movement of migratory operations throughout the country, Calderone says. New restrictions for California for migratory beekeepers =20 Because the breeding populations will be maintained using closed- mating technology, they will be kept free of Africanized honeybee genes, thereby providing an unadulterated source for commercial queen and package producers. Why is Calderone thinking we need to keep a source of bees free of = africanized genes? What is the USDA not telling us? I sincerely hope my = analysis of Lloyds posting will encourage beekeepers to ask questions of = their friends in the USDA and report back. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:32:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB and NaOH dipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lennard, Back in the 20's, 30's, and 40's, boiling in a strong solution of NaOH was the "way" used by many beekeepers to kill AFB spores. Generally, the only parts "decontaminated" by this means were the hive bodies and bottom board. Frames, inner covers, and excluders were too flimsy to stand the effect of the NaOH, and hence were rarely subjected to this harsh treatment. The major problem is danger to YOURSELF and of course the finding of a suitable place to dispose of the used NaOH. If you are NOT a chemist, sodium hydroxide is dangerous to handle, and HOT "lye" is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to you. I have used this method, back in the 30's, in the woods with a 55 gallon drum heated with a wood fire under it. I was young and foolish then. I would be strongly opposed to an amateur using NaOH today, and legal disposal of the used NaOH would be almost impossible. What state are you in? Maryland and North Carolina can decontaminate bee equipment with ethylene oxide, and Massachusetts uses cobalt irradiation. Hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: Red Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles Harper" > > > Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish > tubular flower, > > member of the mint family. > > I concur, though I would describe it as red-orange pollen. I walked the fields today and I did find some Henbit in bloom and the pollen was more of a orange color. The red pollen that I am seeing is bright red, the color of the stripes on our flag. I don't believe this is the source of the red pollen that I am seeing. Any more ideas? I searched the BEE-L archives and noticed the post about the bees visiting the flowers at the cementary and I do have one about a mile away. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:28:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are right we have only got one state completely capensis now. Let us = > wait till all of California is capensis before deciding if capensis is a = > good or bad thing.= Hmmmm. So far, this is the first statement (I think) that I have read that the capensis-like characteristics seen in Arizona bees are indeed because the bees are capensis, not just capensis-like. Is there any evidence other than a similarity in some behaviours, or is this just speculation? > bee will take over all over strains of bees. Do the Lusby's keep any = > other strains of bees other than the black super bee? If you look at my pictures at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ and http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick, you will see that most of their bees are at least partially yellow. HOWEVER, Dee tells me that to have the good disease and pest management in a hive, she looks for at least one sub-family of black bees and selects for that. > and wish the USDA had looked at = > their hives earlier if capensis genes are the cause of the large = > amount of thelytoky going on in their bees. I think they have. Maybe Dee will step out here and say something? > "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all the = > characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20 Well, that is just a maybe, and also still a big 'IF'. allen http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:37:24 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA5448687 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3s4010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0201D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 290318 Lines: 6163 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said: > I am not sure what "clinical infection" means in terms of when they > destroy a colony. "Clinical", meaning AFB detected, versus "sub-clinical", meaning not detected, but still possibly infected. > I think we are talking apples and oranges when we bring in New Zealand > as an example since we are not doing much of what they have in effect. Which is my point. Any program to deal with diseases or pests must be coordinated, with all beekeepers making commitments to serve to general good. > You can do everything correct as they do it in NZ, and be zapped by a > fellow beekeeper here in the US. I have heard this complaint often. It seems a defeatist outlook, since it assumes that people will not act in their own best interest, and cooperate when the advantages of cooperation are made clear. > We just do not have the program they have there. Exactly. We need one if we want to get serious. I submit that each state needs to coordinate within its own borders as a start, and the first step would be to contact beekeepers that are not attending meetings. The good news is that making such a list is easy, if the catalog houses and local supply dealers are willing to cooperate. It is assumed that it would be very difficult to keep bees without buying some sort of supplies every so often. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:37:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Cornick Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/02 7:27:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sidpull@CS.COM writes: > I have never found much difficulty in finding the > queen in an aggressive colony. Sounds to me like you never found an aggressive colony. 200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hanging so thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, 20 stings where the veil touched my neck, about an acre or so where anything that moved got dive bombed. Find anything in that. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of 17 hives, many replaced last spring due to winter losses, I had two occurrences of agressive hives. In both cases, people nearby were being stung, not only those who approached the hive itself. In one case there were four colonies in the bee yard, on a farm. Field workers (not close to the hive) were being stung. One of the four hives exhibited a strong "flash back" of bees when I inserted a gloved hand, and I moved that hive. The problem vanished. I also moved the other hive. Requeening was tough becuause this was mid-summer and both hives were so full of bees that I after moving them I had to separate the brood boxes, moving them 50 feet from the supers, and leaving empty brood boxes under the supers. The field bees returned to the colony with the now empty brood boxes, while the original brood boxes (now with many fewer bees) gave me a chance to find the queen and requeen. A week or so later I re-combined the brood box under the original hive. Both hives exhibited normal behavior into the fall. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" James suggests I read the article on New Zealand beekeeping. From the article: >Beekeepers in New Zealand eliminate AFB by using routine and >constant AFB inspection, managing their beehives in such a way that >they reduce the spread of AFB, and destroying colonies that are >found to have clinical infections of the disease. > >(clinical AFB hives are hives showing *visual* symptoms) > >The most important point the figures illustrate, however, is that it >is possible using search and destroy inspections, hive and apiary >quarantines, and beehive component sterilisation, to successfully >eradicate the disease Their program uses no drugs, but requires destruction of colonies showing visible symptoms. All colonies in the country must be registered, all beekeepers must comply. That would be impossible in this country. Beekeepers don't want it, the government doesn't want to do it, and there is no money for it. PB -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "Aggressive" Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sidpull@CS.COM wrote: > > Aggression is not always the fault of the queen. Sid, Glad to see you again. You might recall I used your excellent comments on tanging in our newsletter. I have found that most of the aggression I have with my bees is not the queen but outside influences. (I had one aggressive hive that was the fault of the queen, this is just my experience and not the norm. A single data point in the pixillated world of beekeeping.) Usually the aggression is caused by animals, especially skunks, visiting the hives at night. The next day the bees are very short tempered. It took me a while to add the one and two, since there was no noticeable evidence of the visit until, after a rain, I saw the paw prints on the front of the hive. I put chicken wire in front of it and problem solved. Bees calmed down quickly. Raccoons also caused problems when I used entrance feeders (when I first started beekeeping they were part of the equipment I purchased with the hives. Terrible invention. They, by themselves, can encourage robbing and aggression.). The raccoons would visit the hive and sample the nice treats I left out for them. Bees were not too happy. And then there is the beekeeper...., probably the worst of all the animals in their treatment of the colonies. I would have stung anyone who treated me the way I treated my bees when I first started. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:51:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB under control Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <200201212049.g0LKnih11665@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 3:18 -0500 1/21/02, James Fischer wrote: > > At one time AFB infection rates were very high and the >> rate was brought down by burning. > >So, let me get this straight... > >1) One detects AFB >2) One may only detect a single cell showing symptoms. >3) Even if the hive is otherwise doing fine, one burns it. >4) One thereby destroys what would otherwise be a > contributor to a strain of AFB-resistant (or tolerant) bees. > >> Then beekeepers switched to medicating, which some say >> merely covers up the symptoms. > >It certainly does not kill dormant spores, but only people who >slept through biology in middle school would expect any different. > >While dormant spores are very, very hard to kill, one will soon be >able to start each season with an absolute assurance of AFB-free >equipment, as soon as we find a US Postal Service manager who >is a beekeeper, or environmentally oriented. James, you refer to the New Zealand paper, but what you are saying is exactly the opposite of their conclusions. They conclude using drugs is a mistake, and do not permit it. You say AFB can be cleaned up with drugs (I am not arguing the point, merely stating that you diverge here). You saying burning is a witch-hunt, but destruction of infected colonies (visibly infected, read: one cell or more) is the centerpiece of their control program. They do not talk AT ALL about retaining so called disease tolerant hives. This should NOT by the average beekeeper. When I worked Southern California in the 1980s the infection rate was around 5%. Everybody medicated. Nobody talked about getting rid of AFB, just keeping it down. Now that TM no longer can be depended upon there are two roads: new drugs or destroying infected hives. The new recommendation with drugs is to NOT use them as prevention, only for treatment. (Again, illegal in many states). PB -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:39:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cal French Subject: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201220500.g0M50Nh25325@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here at my little farm in the coastal mountains of central California, I try to use Organic and IPM methods. From reading various publications, I find that I can spray dormant fruit and nut trees with copper or lime sulfur and still qualify to sell the fruits and nuts as organic. However, I cannot use Roundup under the trees to control weeds or poisoned bait to kill gophers and ground squirrels. "Chemicals" is not a particularly useful word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB under control Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > James, you refer to the New Zealand paper, but what you are saying is > exactly the opposite of their conclusions. Nope, I agree with their analysis of how AFB is spread, and I agree with both their suggested changes to beekeeping practices that tend to spread AFB and their coordinated program. I do not agree with burning colonies in any but the worst cases, as would any rational person who understands how AFB is spread by beekeepers more often than by any other method. > They conclude using drugs is a mistake, and do not permit it. They decided up front to forego drugs. They did no study, they have no facts, they simply made a choice. No one's perfect. In my view, they are wrong on burning, but at least they have an actual plan. > You saying burning is a witch-hunt, but destruction of infected > colonies (visibly infected, read: one cell or more) is the > centerpiece of their control program. I would suggest that their suggested changes to practices that spread AFB are much more important than their specific choice between treatment and burning. Recall that, at the outset, they decided that they did not want to use drugs, so they were left with only burning. When the only tool you have is fire, everything starts to look like kindling. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:22:35 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201221815.g0MIFfh15867@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I would suggest that their suggested changes to practices that > spread AFB are much more important than their specific choice > between treatment and burning. Recall that, at the outset, they > decided that they did not want to use drugs, so they were left with > only burning. When the only tool you have is fire, everything starts to > look like kindling. My guess from this, and your previous posts, is that burning low clinical infections (visible signs of AFB i.e. one or two cells etc.) is destroying potential stock that may have some AFB resistance (by whatever mechanism) and thereby the loss of this genetic material will be detrimental in the reduction of AFB. I think in principle this is probably correct. But the experience here in New Zealand shows that this *does not matter*. The program, if applied effectively, actually *eliminates* clinical AFB - in a reasonably short time i.e. around 5 years. And here I am talking about the experience of multi thousand hive operations, one at least that was built on the purchase of AFB riddled outfits. The one most important Principle of the program is to never remove any material (honey, brood, bees etc.) from a beehive without inspecting for AFB. This $costs$ for the labour to do this. If endemic AFB levels are below 0.5% it may not be worth the effort. If levels are 5% and above, it is definitely worth it. The burnt hives are not a great cost. The greatest cost (over the term of AFB elimination) is the labour cost to carry out THE Principle! There is therefore obviously an economic equilibrium of inspection costs vs. AFB levels - and some beekeepers may decide to apply this. However the long term goal of elimination is the payback of signicantly reduced inspection costs, drug costs, market access costs etc. once an outfit is disease free for a reasonable period of time. e.g. 3-4 years or so. The insistance of lack of drug use is important in the program. If you are masking AFB with drug use, much valuable time spent looking for AFB is wasted because clinical symptoms are supressed. Your goal is actually to find and remove all material with a Minimum Infective Dose of AFB spores from your outfit. If you don't find clinical symptoms, and therefore OK the removal of material with greater than the MID from the hive, you have done so in error and therefore will end up with AFB again somewhere else. The one place where this is most important is in the inspection at honey removal. Supers that come from an infected colony end up going back on to clean colonies next year and may infect several colonies depending on how the frames are mixed up in the extracting plant. At this stage the cause and effect of AFB is impossible to trace. This is the single most important source of those odd hives that pop up mysteriously with AFB for no known reason. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201221747.g0MHlch14439@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:39 AM 1/22/02 -0800, you wrote: >kill gophers and ground squirrels. "Chemicals" is not a particularly useful >word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. Organic is a poor choice as well. While some compounds aren't organic (copper sulfate for example), many of the pesticides are organic compounds. My roommate in college (a chemistry major) found a can of "chemical free" beans in the supermarket. (Vacuum in a can anybody?), At least the "fat free" bottle of water was technically correct. The efforts to genetically engineer crops that make their own toxins will likely muddy the water further. Often times the real meaning and the public perception, FDA and the government's definition of a word are often totally different things. Are there any written rules to what you can call Organic Honey? Obviously other livestock rules don't apply well to bees. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AHPA Meeting Notes and Southern Arizona In-Reply-To: <200201220212.g0M2Cth19865@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Do you have any further details on some of the topics at the convention? Some of them look quite interesting. Most notably: -SHB problems are much worse in hives treated with grease patties I know of no one in our area of ohio that has SHB, but it has been found in Ohio, so this could be of great concern as many beekeepers in my area use grease or oil patties. Some of the alternate treatments sound interesting as well (oil of origano etc.) -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:07:03 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: IPM and Organic In-Reply-To: <200201221747.g0MHlch14446@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"Chemicals" is not a particularly useful >word in agriculture. Virtually everything around us is made up of chemicals. oh, so true. It is a constant embarrassment to serious scientific advocates of organic agriculture that many of our allies don't know what the word 'chemical' means. The serviceable term is 'synthetic chemical', tho' that too runs into minor problems. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <01C1A346.7945A490.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 1/22/02 01:12 PM, you wrote: >I do not agree with burning colonies in any but the worst cases, >as would any rational person who understands how AFB is spread >by beekeepers more often than by any other method. >They decided up front to forego drugs. They did no study, they >have no facts, they simply made a choice. You are commending the New Zealand approach on the one hand and ridiculing it on the other. "They have no facts, they simply made a choice." In other words, where they agree with you, they are right. Where they disagree with you, they are wrong. Where is your study, where are your facts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:54:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: "Aggressive" Bees In-Reply-To: <200201221418.g0MEIDh04732@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200201221418.g0MEIDh04732@listserv.albany.edu>, Bill Truesdell writes >Usually the aggression is caused by animals, especially skunks, visiting >the hives at night. The next day the bees are very short tempered. It >took me a while to add the one and two, since there was no noticeable >evidence of the visit until, after a rain, I saw the paw prints on the >front of the hive. I put chicken wire in front of it and problem solved. >Bees calmed down quickly. I wonder if it is a ferret that make the 4 end hives (in a double row 4x2) bad tempered. The owner of the garden keeps ferrets and lost one (it ran past me several times the night it got out with its female, who stayed) and I wonder if it keeps coming back? (A ferret is a bit like a mink). -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are commending the New Zealand approach on the one hand and ridiculing > it on the other. "They have no facts, they simply made a choice." In other > words, where they agree with you, they are right. Where they disagree with > you, they are wrong. Well, they are partly right and they are partly wrong. That's why. > Where is your study, where are your facts? There is far more science on Jim's side than on the NZ side. The NZ approach is based on pseudo-science and wishful thinking backed up by an unique situation, good luck and a draconian regime. Resistance -- or at least reduction in susceptibility of bee stocks will have to be an important part of any US effort due to the migratory nature of the business and the independant and non-co-operative nature of many US beekeepers. Each country is different. what works in NZ could be folly in many other areas. Moreover the flow patterns in some regions make inspection at time of honey removal extremely unpleasant and awkward, if not impossible. Matching supers to hives may be paractical in some places, but not feasible in others. The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution when compared to other possibilities for other countries. B. Haver ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > When I worked Southern California in the 1980s the infection rate was > around 5%. Everybody medicated. Nobody talked about getting rid of > AFB, just keeping it down. Now that TM no longer can be depended upon > there are two roads: new drugs or destroying infected hives. The new > recommendation with drugs is to NOT use them as prevention, only for > treatment. (Again, illegal in many states). Been following your discussions. Isn't AFB spores in all (most) colonies, laying there dormant(to some degree)? According to the law and with TM resistant AFB won't there soon be large bonfires unless a new drug is to be used(actually should see lots of smoke and ash already)? Won't that new drug just become resistant too? I am for the no drug approach. Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? Infected frames (wood is destroyed) and wax processed(wax press) as mentioned in Hive and the Honeybee which destroys AFB spores. Maybe its time to get laws changed? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" from APIS Volume 18, Number 1, January 2000 : Mr. Laurence Cutts of the Division of Plant Industry's Apiary Bureau (Florida) is burning more colonies that have become symptomatic than in past years. Many of these have been treated with antibiotic apparently to little avail. Tests at both the Florida and Federal Beekeeping Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland have confirmed what appears to be a growing tolerance by the causative organism (Paenibacillus larvae larvae) for the only currently labeled antibiotic, Terramycin. This should be no surprise. It parallels what is happening in other livestock industries, as well as humans, signaling that the era of antibiotics as a wonder drug may be drawing to a close. The good news is that Dr. H. Shimanuki of the Beltsville Bee Laboratory sees a new era dawning such that we can expect to see advances made in the materials and methods available for detection, prevention and control of AFB. The bad news is that this may take some time, and those beekeepers having the problem now could be ill-equipped to deal with it. One of the reasons for this is that many are not familiar with the disease's etiology and detection. These have taken low priority in the face of 40 years of effective masking by Terramycin. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bee law in Pennsylvania allows for treatment of diseased colonies at the discretion of the inspector. An inspector who finds AFB will evaluate the situation and explain all the possible alternatives to the beekeeper, who will then decide how to treat the disease. If the colony is weak or heavily infested, the only alternative is to kill the bees and burn the frames and combs. If the disease is diagnosed in its early stages and the colony is strong, it may be treated with terramycin. A diseased colony treated with terramycin should be considered contaminated with spores forever and should be treated preventatively with terramycin indefinitely. A colony is not cleansed of AFB after treating for a year, 2 years or even 5 years. If a colony has had AFB and the terramycin treatment is discontinued the disease will come back. Terramycin (oxytetracycline) is the only drug approved for use against American Foul Brood. When present in the food given to susceptible larvae this antibiotic is effective in preventing germination of AFB spores. The bees are then able to develop and mature normally. Terramycin will not kill the spores and is not a means for sterilizing either the bees or the equipment. If a colony contains AFB spores and is maintained in a healthy condition through treatment with terramycin, the disease will recur when the drug treatment is discontinued. http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Agriculture/bureaus/plant_industry/apiary/apiary_pests.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFB is regulated by the Georgia Department of Agriculture, and infected colonies are normally burned by state inspectors. As state budgets allow, beekeepers may be indemnified for these losses. The spores of the AFB bacterium are extremely persistent in contaminated comb and hive parts. Although resistant bee colonies may clean up visible signs of infestation, it is more typical for AFB to be incurable and essentially doom the colony. Beekeepers should never maintain hospital yards in which they group AFB colonies together in isolation. Such yards simply serve as reservoirs of disease that will serve to contaminate apiaries for miles around. It is equally inadvisable to treat infected colonies with Terramycin. The antibiotic will simply obscure visible signs of the disease, but the symptoms will rapidly recur once the antibiotic is removed. http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/American_Foulbrood.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:09:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? > Infected frames (wood is destroyed) and wax processed > (wax press) as mentioned in Hive and the Honeybee > which destroys AFB spores. I'm glad Clay mentioned this. It's been some time since I read the NZ paper (booklet), but my recollection is that the bees can be shaken from infected wquipment into clean equipment (new frames with foundation) thereby saving the stock. The bees must be confined for two days to consume any honey that may be in their systems. Thereafter, any traces of AFB will be pooped out of the hive on cleansing flights. However, saving such stock actually is counterproductive in that it will maintain stock that has proven to be susceptible to AFB infection. Perhaps requeening should be part of the procedure. > Maybe its time to get laws changed? Absolutely! First on my list would be to have the laws acknowledge that irradiating equipment kills AFB bacteria and spores. Aaron Morris - thinking nuked equipment is preferable to ashes! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:55 -0700 1/22/02, BEEHAVER wrote: >There is far more science on Jim's side than on the NZ side. Would you care to cite? So far, Jim only referred to the New Zealand study, which does not support his assertions. Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better on their own. No scientist would support this. If you read over what I have said, I have made no personal recommendations. Follow state laws. >Moreover the flow patterns in some regions make inspection at time of honey >removal extremely unpleasant and awkward, if not impossible. Matching >supers to hives may be paractical in some places, but not feasible in >others. Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on the super with a crayon. >The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution >when compared to other possibilities for other countries. Just what are the possibilities you referring to? How about some specifics? PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Burning Infected Equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tim Arheit wrote: > Not to mention open air burning is illegal in many places, especially > those hives containing plastic. > > See http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/facts/openburn.html for a summary > of ohio's burning laws... Well, there IS an out for burning infected hive equipment in Ohio's laws. > Permitted burning includes: > ... > smudge pots and SIMILAR OCCUPATIONAL NEEDS; .... (Emphasis is mine). In New York State, the law states that a beekeeper MUST burn AFB infected equipment. Hence, I can have a bonfire to burn infected equipment and not be in violation of open burning regulations. Having said that, I would first notify my local Volunteer Fire Department and local village officials of my intent to burn to avoid the fire trucks showing up at my bonfire. > ... burning plastic simply can't be done anywhere. Burning plastic remains a tough issue. One simply should not open burn plastic - the fumes are toxic. Wrestling with that conflict in New York, the state agriculture department has recommended working with local land fill operators to make sure that contaminated plastic equipment is burried upon delivery to the land fill (yeah, right!). So one department is recommending burying infected plastic equipment (even though the laws insist on burning), while other state departments are in the process of closing all landfills in the state. > Local ordinances may be more strict. Very true. I made a point to represent burning requirements (similar occupational needs) to my village board when they adopted a very strict open burning law. A loophole was put into the local ordinance to allow burning as required by state laws. The issue of burning plastic still remains. Plastic can be irradiated, but New York doesn't recognize that. New York says burn, immediately, in the location in which the infection occurs. The nearest irradiation facility to me is in Massachusetts. New York forbids moving infected equipment out of the apiary in which it's located, say nothing of transporting it across state lines. > Has anyone experimented with anything that might kill the spores > such as bleach solution that will kill the anthrax spores? Again, irradiation works. The NZ paper says bleach works. But again, at least in New York, the ONLY thing that is LEGISLATED is burning. Aaron Morris - thinking it is indeed time to bring the laws in line with reality. I expect that to happen soon after New York State legislators pass a budget on time! For those out of state, New York has NOT passed a budget on time in 17 years. It's a long-standing NY joke. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201231219.g0NCJTh24580@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:09 AM 1/23/02 -0500, you wrote: > > Maybe its time to get laws changed? >Absolutely! First on my list would be to have the laws acknowledge that >irradiating equipment kills AFB bacteria and spores. Not to mention open air burning is illegal in many places, especially those hives containing plastic. See http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/facts/openburn.html for a summary of ohio's burning laws. The way I read it you could only burn outside restricted areas, you may not move the waste to another site to burn it, and burning plastic simply can't be done anywhere. Local ordinances may be more strict. Has anyone experimented with anything that might kill the spores such as bleach solution that will kill the anthrax spores? Of course it's most likely toxic to the bees, but what I'm looking for is proper (legal) disposal and possible salvage of the equipment. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:23:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201230500.g0N501h16809@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James Fischer wrote: > "It seems a defeatist outlook, since it assumes that people will not act in their own best interest, and cooperate when the advantages of cooperation are made clear."< I think that people can generally be defeatists and act like defeatists by nature or previous history/ tradition, and also they will often act against their own best interest - at least it is so in my country. One person cannot go against tradition, habits - you can just go alone with them, and only you can is to try to gave slate different direction - if you care for your own best interest. The programs which are dealing with diseases are always programs ABOUT coordination - but as we fill in beekeeping - they are never good enough. Or... What is success of a such program? I suppose curing, eliminating the disease! What happens when you cured it? Than there isn't any reasons any more to REALLY keep up the program and spend money and to straighten coordination efforts... After that... Here is illustration: One of my friends, with whom I doesn't meet very often now, has sad to me last time when we met, that he has discovered in his house top that his grandfather was been beekeeper and he will gave that old equipment to his relative because he had started last year with beekeeping by caching one swarm... How many new beehavers are come in beekeeping on this way every year, or how many are not beekeepers any more every year (not telling anyone), and also how many experienced beekeepers forgot to gave instructions to newcomers to disinfect the equipment at first - like I forget to tell my friend? About such programs, I wonder if there is anybody on this List from Israel, because I have heard that they had very consistent programs (at list for varroa treatments) - did they had some programs for AFB and what has happens in long therm? (Short therm success is expected) My conclusion (at present!) is that any program which will include a lot of effort, lot of money and lot of time, and also which will NOT have specially developed approach (depending highly of tradition/habits) has no chance to success longer time. Such a program must have clear tactic for what to do AFTER eventual first success. ...and seems that such programs always look different (better) from outside than from inside. Clay, under: "AFB under control", wrote: > Why not do colony shake downs into new equipment? Infected frames (wood is destroyed)...< I personally advocate this old method, but it is suitable only for beekeepers with small number of colonies. This can be (and nas been proved that this is true) very safe and effective, especially if some new knowledge can be included: - establishing quarantine places/apiaries (if beekeeping operation is bigger), - establishing colonies-isolators for frames with brood (if there is many infected colonies), - disinfecting all equipment with hot 2 - 4% solution of NaOH (word in English?) (no need to burn frames), - replacing the queens and replacing the honey (you shake bees on clean equipment and gave a sugar syrup extensively (when you can administer antibiotic - first and last time) until bees build up all frames from foundation and made reserves od capped honey - usually maximum 3 weeks) - eventually reinforcing the colonies with bees from colonies-isolators It is also VERY important to do the same operation completely to all beehives in apiary in which you find hive with clinical AFB, because concentration of spores in them can be in critical levels..., or you can do the same if AFB was found at your neighbour - as preventive measure. This is also very stressful job and sometimes can be done only just before evenings on limited numbers of bee colonies for that day. ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Barta Subject: Re: IPM and Organic On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:32:52 -0500, Tim Arheit wrote: >Are there any written rules to what you can call Organic Honey? Obviously >other livestock rules don't apply well to bees. > >-Tim For the U.S., the draft standards are available at http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/nop2000/nosb%20recommedations/Livestock%20recomm end/apicl-finldrft.htm or (if that URL is daunting) through the USDA Ag Marketing Service National Organic Program web site. Some key points that I've seen: In addition to locating the hives on organic land, the organic apiculture plan must: (1) Contain a map of the forage zone which shows the location of the hives, the location of organic and wild land, and the location of all non-organic areas; (2) Describe the quantity of organic and/or wild forage to be provided per colony, including the type or types of forage, approximate bloom period, forage density, competing species density, honeybee colony density, colony health, colony strength, topography, and climatic conditions; (3) Describe the water sources available in the forage zone; (4) List all sanitary landfills, incinerators, sewage treatment facilities, power plants, golf courses, towns or cities, land to which prohibited materials are applied, and all other sources of potential contamination located in the forage zone; and so on. I'm not sure how to estimate some of these.... Adrian Barta Mt. Horeb, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would you care to cite? No. This topic has been covered in detail on this list in the past, and after you have read the archives, if you have a specific question, perhaps Jim or someone else will take the time to explain more. > No scientist would support this. I guess Steve Taber is not a scientist then. Nor is Marla Spivak. I can name more who have recommended exactly this (or a close variation) in writing or a public lecture. Moreover many beekeepers have practised this with reasonable success, and no, I am not going to name names. The keys are resistant stock, close observation, good understanding, and in some cases some chemical assistance or a change of queen or stock, depending on the object in mind and the environment. This is a really complex topic and, as always there are some who love simplistic solutions, especially if they involve destroying things -- and especially if those things belong to others. This is 2002, and there are many new alternatives. Radiation works and does a lot of good besides just kill AFB. The new drugs, Tylosin and Lincomycin can be used legally in the US with the approval of any local vet (depending on the state jurisdiction). New communication methods and new science are pushing back the ignorance that was a main cause of the original and continuing AFB problems in North America. There is a good chance that the honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. Moreover it is now easy to analyse bees for AFB resistance (there are several factors to look for) and select, although sadly, breeders are not putting their hearts into this and won't until pushed by their customers -- or regulators. Recent analysis has shown there is a good reservoir of reasonably resistant bees -- perhaps better described as less susceptible -- in North American stock. If only the most susceptible were identified and eliminated, the disease would seldom be seen. This may come about in the next decade. There are claims also that using stock that is suited to 4.9 cell size seems to allow exactly this let-alone approach. A good friend of mine has observed this latter effect in action, but reserves judgement. > Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be > marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the > supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know > which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little > trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on > the super with a crayon. I gather, then, you have never worked in a commercial outfit that runs hives up and down across distances greater than the breadth or length of NZ and sometimes hires illerate or semi-literate labour, and uses custom exctracting facilities or swaps equipment, or puts hives into that 500-mile-long beeyard they call California almond pollination? > >The NZ approach may be optimal for NZ, but may be the high cost solution > >when compared to other possibilities for other countries. > > Just what are the possibilities you referring to? How about some specifics? Read the archives. B. Haver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Disease Resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" quotes: >That means the bees are healthy and are able to keep the AFB under control. >Resistance?? There are three beekeepers in NM who do not treat for AFB that >I know of . We just do not treat. When I find some AFB on a comb I take it >out and mark that hive to check it a week or so later. >resistance strains of bees are popping up here and there. >burning low clinical infections (visible signs of AFB i.e. one or >two cells etc.) is destroying potential stock that may have some AFB >resistance >Resistance -- or at least reduction in susceptibility of bee stocks >will have to be an important part of any US effort due to the >migratory nature of the business and the independant and >non-co-operative nature of many US beekeepers. Many people have referred to AFB resistance or tolerance in bees. I already cited studies done on this very thing in the 30s. Breeding for resistance is a serious subject and not simply a matter of looking at a colony and saying, "this one ain't dead yet, must be resistant." There are a lot of people out there who have contempt for science and believe they "know better" than the experts. Good luck! From "The Genetic Basis of Disease Resistance", by Robert Page and Ernesto Guzman-Novoa (in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" edited by Roger Morse and Kim Flottum, 1997): >Expectations should be realistic. The elimination of disease >problems through selective breeding is not a realistic objective. >Instead, a reduction in incidence or a reduction of the need to >treat chemically may be attainable; the complete elimination of the >need to treat chemically is not. > >Selection is an ongoing process that is necessary to produce and >maintain resistant stocks. Selective progress will begin to >deteriorate as soon as the selection on the population is relaxed. > >Numerous unsubstantiated claims of disease-resistant stocks are >found in the bee journals. The first successful breeding program for >resistance to AFB was implemented in September 1934 by O. W. Park, >et al. They successfully developed and maintained resistant stock >for 15 years. > >Selective breeding programs will not succeed without economic >incentives. Current prices paid for queens produced in the US will >not support the added expense of industry driven breeding programs. >Institutional programs such as the USDA's have never succeeded, >partly because of the failure of the bee industry to adopt the >stocks they produced. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:15:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Borst makes an excellent point when he quotes: > >Selection is an ongoing process that is necessary to produce and > >maintain resistant stocks. Selective progress will begin to > >deteriorate as soon as the selection on the population is relaxed. It has already been pointed out that Tabor and Spivak claim to have isolated stock resistant to AFB. The late Roger Morse also claimed to have done so, and I have descendants of Roger's lines. But as Peter pointed out, I have not maintained that stock and can make no more of a claim than at one time I purchased a few queens that were claimed to have been descendant's of Roger's AFB resistant stock. I cannot and will not claim to have AFB resistant bees. First, I made no effort to keep the line, and second, I treat my bees for AFB. Once on the merry-go-around, it's hard to get off. Shim recommends getting off the merry-go-around a yard at a time. He states if you've been treating regularly, wean yourself a yard at a time, keeping diligent watch for any signs of AFB is the yard(s) you stop treating. Cull any equipment where AFB emerges. I have not followed Dr. Shimanuki's recommendations. The quote Peter offered is also the point I've been making about SMR bees. Different banes (AFB vs. Varroa d.) but same issue. The foe CAN be defeated through selective breeding. But the isolated strain of bee that overcomes the bane is only good for the life of THAT queen. Subsequent generations require reassessment to see if the desired trait (resistance to the bane du jour) has been passed on to the daughter. If so, all is well. If not, cull the queen and try again. And if no reassessment is done, all bets are off. And it is the continual assessment/reassessment step that dooms most (all?) "better bees through better breeding" programs. Few (if any) beekeepers will track that in their yards, and few breeders deliver queens from such a program. NO BREEDERS deliver queens from an assessment program at $15 a pop. $50 a pop for those guarantees does not seem out of line, eh? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Pesticide abuse/cotton boll weavel extermination, etc. (was: Re: IPM vs. Strips) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James Fischer" > Dave Green said: > > Please note that Paul Cherubini is not speaking as a beekeeper. He is an > > enthusiastic pesticide salesman. You can run a search of his past posts for > > more info. Need I say more? > James Fischer responded > Yes, you need to apologize to Mr. Cherubini and the list for tarring him with a > brushfull of argumentum ad hominem. I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with noting Mr. Cherubini's agenda. I grew up on a farm, and we were besieged with "enthusiastic pesticide salesmen." We bought it and used it, saw short term gains, but began to see long term losses. Later, I managed a fruit farm and the owner wisely told me, "Don't get your pesticide recommendations from pesticide salesmen." That was a good caution, but I eventually came to the conclusion that many of the supposedly impartial advisors, including the extension service, were also pesticide salesmen. The system linked them together so that even if one human link had doubts, once could not extricate oneself. The chemical companies got a lock on the whole system of pest control. It was lucrative. Only when problems became blatant and out of control, did they back off and seek alternatives. Malathion on cotton is one of these issues. The losses both of domestic honeybees and wild pollinators has so far been pretty easy to keep under wraps, so it can be ignored. A few bankrupt beekeepers, and some farmers who have had to quit with a variety of crops that need bees, and focus once again on corn and cotton monoculture, don't seen like an issue to the pesticide people or the extension system that they have bought. The more pesticides are used, the more they are needed. It is an endless circle, with an ever more sterile environment and ever increasing profits for pesticide manufacturers. The losses of pollinators from the use of malathion and other insecticides on cotton, or for mosquito control, been called to Mr. Chrubini's attention several times, without any change in his tune. If you haven't seen it, you can see one good example of (illegal but officially sanctioned) malathion use that killed pollinators at http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ I have never been 100% organic in my philosophy, but we have soaked our environment with a pervasive mix of pesticide that often come back to haunt us in unexpected ways. I have been extremely cautious in my own use. I had bees alongside the orchard throughout the season, and did not hurt them, because I was careful to comply with the label directions. Do you think the boll weevil extermination program complied with the bee protection label directions? Not a chance! (It should also be noted that there are some entomologists who believe that the boll weevil eradication program is taking credit for extermination by predatory fire ants. I don't know if this is true, but it's an interesting thought. I think fire ants have also damaged ground nesting solitary bees.) Here's an interesting current pesticide story, not directly related to bees, but a correlating example of widespread routine abuse of a pesticide and how it bites back. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134394100_compost22m0.html I don't know how some specific situations could be dealt with without pesticides, but "organic" is looking better every year that I observe. I'm already convinced that, if pesticide users were to become competent in understanding the pests, usage could be cut 90%. What I see is that there is now little incentive to do so, despite all the shibboleths of the industry. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:43:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: 4-H Project "Hive Tool" Kid Friendly! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to give a quick update on our 4-H project. With all the = snow this past weekend it was a good time for my daughter and I work on her = 4-H project. We updated Hive Tool project with new help information, more drop down selections, updated the IR print function, and added the ability to = use a=20 PDA with a scanner to allow scanning barcodes on hives. We also did = some other little changes to make it look prettier "as my daughter said." We = also created a emulator that simulates the Hive Tool program. This can be used to = show you how the program works without having a Palm Device although, the scanning = feature will not function on the emulator. The Hive Tool Program is for use with Palm Pilot type devices and will = only work if you have one to install it to. Palm type devices have a program called Palm Desktop that will recognize the extension of PRC and open a program called Hotsync. Hotsync will load The Hive Tool to your Palm Device. Once installed and selected for the first time the program will expand itself into a functioning program. If you don't have a palm device and but would like to see the program = you=20 can download the Hive Tool Emulator! We would also like to hear your comments about the program! The Hive Tool can be found at http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping=20 http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 0102 17:48:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: disease resistance I am hearing stories of big mid western outfits with 40% or more TM resistant AFB.That means some of this has been and will be here in the 500 mile bee yard referred to by Bhaver.So you had better believe other antibiotics will be used,because only a fool is going to burn thousands of hives to stop what is already unstoppable.How many hives were prevented from mite infestation by govt restrictions?Absolutely 0.So this is a management issue,not something that can be solved by regulation.Ok,Tm worked for 40 years in spite of all who said it was a time bomb.If Tylosin works for 40 more,why worry?Yes we should be breeding for hygeinic behavior(some are).But realistically,the hygeinic lines are going to always be crossing with lines that are being kept alive with antibiotics.Same with mite resistant lines.Unless the breeder does as Aarron suggests and does nonstop monitoring.Of course your stock will also be affecting your neighbors line of bees also,so some progress will be made. So,IMHO,it is Ok to keep your bees alive with whatever it takes,but at the same time look for and breed for those factors that keep the bees healthy without intervention,just in case the new AFB treatments DO NOT last 40 years. -Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am pleased to see the level of reason brought to this discussion by Jim Fischer and others. I agree with their thoughts that elimination of AFB is not desirable (even if possible), and that burning at the slightest sign of infection is an ignorant response. (The fact that it is legally required does not mean it is an appropriate approach.) Someone made the point that we need some level of AFB infection as it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be eliminated worldwide and we need the constant pressure on honeybee genetics to keep some level of resistance. I could not agree more. In fact, if NZ ever accomplishes their goal of elimination of AFB I believe it should make their queens considerably less attractive in the export markets. A related situation is the fact that while Tracheal Mites have never been found in Hawaii, queen breeders there import semen from Tracheal Mite resistant stock so that they can continue to sell queens to the mainland US. Good practice! Think about it...those of European, Asian and African decent used to have good resistance to what we call German Measles. For lots of good reasons a vaccine was developed, but the vaccine is short-lived. Today it is widely recognized that an outbreak will be a public health disaster, as German Measles resistance has been lost and most of the world's population is highly susceptable...and German Measles can kill! Same with Smallpox. I wasn't around (as a beekeeper), but my understanding of the reason AFB was such a disaster in the 1940's and 1950's is that the genetic stock in the US had little to no resistance due to a lack of prior exposure. (I understand no one knows where the disease came from, but it was unknown until the late 1800's.) I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the migratory operations." Not said is that if the inspectors adopted such an approach, the inspectors in the states from which the bees were coming would retaliate in kind...and the mess would be unbelievable. (The reason there is no active AFB is the prophylactic use of Terra.) Some beekeepers that I highly respect will strongly disagree with me, but I am inclined to think that inspection programs with inspectors paid by a government should be a thing of the past. Among the many reasons for my views are: 1. I don't believe that AFB any longer is an organism that may destroy beekeeping in the US. 2. I think the "average" beekeeper, whether commercial, hobbyist or sideliner, is far more educated and knowledgeable than her counterpart in the early part of this century. She is capable and will follow good beekeeping practices that are appropriately communicated. 3. We have means of communication among beekeepers and researchers that were largely not available early in this century. The resistance to Terra, will change beekeeping in significant ways. Probably all of them good. However, we need some AFB infection rate for our genetic stocks and IMHO we do not need inspectors to tell us we have infections! As taxpayers, our money can be better spent elsewhere...and perhaps via our own decisions rather than at government direction. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:20:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Thomas, <> I can asssure you, Thomas, that I have dealt with many difficult bees in my time.I started beekeeping in 1930, probably long before you were born. Last year, 2001, old age and the many ailments that go with it plus crippling arthritis requiring a hip replacement spelt the end of my beekeeping career. Now my beehouse and workshop stand empty and it grieves me. I am now resigned to being an armchair beekeeper. However, I shall not hang up my veil yet as I can still watch other beekeepers at work. <<200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hangingso thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, 20 stings where the veiltouched my neck,>> You were a brave man, Thomas, but unwise. The chances of finding the queen in a full strength aggressive stock are remote and not worth the pain. Although I am generally immune to a multiple stinging I would not risk it. When I look for the queen she is in a three or four comb nucleus box with a handful of young bees and can be found without difficulty. I won't bore the List with the details but if you are interested I can write to you privately.Regards. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:33:28 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: 'genome project' ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anon. wrote: > There is a good chance that the >honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. This idea holds v little if any promise for doing good to bees, and may lead to harm. The sequence of bases in an organism's genome is of v unclear significance and even less use. The implication that deviations from some assumed norm can be corrected and used against disease is poorly based and has led to no actual improvement in any sp yet. Moreover, what the 'sequencers' such as J Celera Venter produce is a simplified caricature of the sequence of bases _in vivo_. The leader of one such caper passed thru Auckland a couple y ago and gave a seminar. He said that what they sequence is copies made in systems which generated polymers with just the 4 bases G, C, A & T. They check back in the real DNA only 1/10,000th of those results. But it has been known for decades that real DNA contains bases other than The Big Four. This sequencing business is largely if not wholly a waste of money & talent. And of course, as I've previously pointed out, attempts to improve the honey bee by genetic manipulation could cause harm. Novel pathogens are a real possibility. Do bone up at www.psrast.org before you get swept away by this fad which combines rotten science with dishonest business. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I said: > Actually, if you read the study, they state that the supers can be > marked, then the hives inspected. If the apiary is clean, then the > supers can be unmarked. If a hive is diseased, then you will know > which supers are contaminated. This would represent very little > trouble at all. You can number the hives and mark the hive number on > the super with a crayon. At 7:58 -0700 1/23/02, BEEHAVER wrote: >I gather, then, you have never worked in a commercial outfit that runs hives >up and down across distances greater than the breadth or length of NZ and >sometimes hires illerate or semi-literate labour, and uses custom >exctracting facilities or swaps equipment, or puts hives into that >500-mile-long beeyard they call California almond pollination? Actually I know many California beekeepers, having lived there most of my life. I worked for at least six. I have seen all types, some excellent bee-men and some slobs. James said, and I agree, the central point of the New Zealand article was that beekeeping practices have to change. I think he would agree that the use of illiterate help and swapping equipment are hardly good beekeeping practices, regardless of how common. If you have time to take a super off a hive, and place it on a pallet or truck, I suppose you might have time to write a number on it. Maybe not. But if you don't have that much time, obviously you don't have time to inspect hives anyway, except dead ones (if that) and you no doubt have bees like Lloyd describes: >I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with >brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass >inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no >active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the >migratory operations." And if that is the actual state of commercial beekeeping today, then they will never be rid of drugs because they no doubt have millions of spores in every hive. They pass the inspections! What kind of inspection is that? But that isn't beekeeping anyway. *That* is bee having. Please remember, this list is called: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paula Franke Subject: Kentucky Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If this has been brought up already, my apologies for missing it. However, there is legislation proposed for this new session of the Kentucky General Assembly that I, personally as a small producer and farmers marketer, would like to see moved along and approved: HB 400 (BR 1644) - R. Wilkey, R. Thomas AN ACT relating to honey. Create a new section of KRS 217.005 to 217.215 to exempt persons who sell less than 500 gallons of honey in a year from being required to process the honey in a certified food processing establishment, or from being required to obtain a permit. Jan 17-introduced in House Jan 18-to Agriculture and Small Business (H) As I said, I'm a small producer, well under the 500 gal/yr, but I sell comb honey and have a regular consumer market that can't be satisfied with the small amount I have available. Other local producers are afraid to sell their honey due to current state law that prohibits selling honey unless it's "processed in a certified kitchen". I want to expand my beeyard for honey production (currently 5 hives), but the certified kitchen requirement just to cut the comb and package (and justification for that capital expense) it is beyond my financial means at this point in time. I do sterilize my packaging, just like I do for my own home canning. But my home kitchen can't be certified because it's a regular household ktichen. I just wanted Kentucky honey producers to be aware of this proposed legislation. Paula Franke Head of Happy Hollow Farm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:07:03 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > James said, and I agree, the central point of the New Zealand article > was that beekeeping practices have to change. On that we can agree. We all agree. In fact, we cannot stop the change. Why try? > I think he would agree > that the use of illiterate help and swapping equipment are hardly > good beekeeping practices, regardless of how common. Not everyone can get an academic job. Many just do what they can. That's America. > But if you don't have that much time, obviously you don't > have time to inspect hives anyway, except dead ones (if that) and you > no doubt have bees like Lloyd describes: That's a low one, and a bad guess to boot. Cute though. The trouble with beekeeping is that there are too many moving parts. What other business is this complex and requires so many different things to be done right? > >I have personally seen commercial, migratory beekeeping operations with > >brood nests full of AFB scale. Yet these operations regularly pass > >inspections needed to migrate. The justification is that there is "no > >active AFB, and if we kept out all hives with scale we would close the > >migratory operations." This is just plain bad, and if anything is creating resistance, this is it. Something has to change. Radiation??? > And if that is the actual state of commercial beekeeping today, then > they will never be rid of drugs because they no doubt have millions > of spores in every hive. They pass the inspections! What kind of > inspection is that? But that isn't beekeeping anyway. *That* is bee > having. Hey, hey, hey. I think that is directed my way :( But I agree with you. These guys (beekeepers and 'inspectors') give us Bee Havers a bad name. > Please remember, this list is called: Informed Discussion of > Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Well, that's true, and as it should be. I understand your difficulty and sympathize, but, if you get caught up on some of the new ideas out there and lighten up a bit, you needn't be embarrassed. The world keeps on a turning and the paradigms keep shifting. Stay young. b. hAVER ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:34:59 -0000 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann comments on the the most powerful tool yet devised my man, DNA sequencing, thus: 'this idea holds v little if any promise for doing good to bees and may lead to harm'. Furthermore, this would appear to inevitably lead to GM bees, a 'fad which combines rotten science with dishonest business'. OK then, here we are back to GM-bashing! (Or just plain trolling?) I thought that we were going to leave this topic alone. Genome sequencing has nothing to do with creating GM bees, and everything to do with understanding how bees work. It will not give sudden and profound understanding, but it will facilitate (along with other disciplines) a gradual but deep appreciation of how bees work. We are here to engage in 'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology'. Crucial to being informed is understanding the genes that hold the blueprint for bees, and eventually how they interact and how their proteins interact ... and how *they* interact with honeybee's pathogens, stresses and environment. Yet we shouldn't go there in case the information encourages big business (lured by the prospects of making enormous fortunes from the beekeeping industry?!) into making GM bees? I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it. Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:14:20 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? In-Reply-To: <200201240035.g0O0Zxh00913@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gavin Ramsay quoth: >Robt Mann comments on the the most powerful tool yet devised my man, DNA >sequencing This ranking of tool powers I'd not heard of; how is it done? > Furthermore, this would appear to inevitably >lead to GM bees Now contrast that with what he says soon afterward: >Genome sequencing has nothing to do with creating GM bees, and everything to >do with understanding how bees work. No-one except Gavin had suggested bee-DNA sequencing would "inevitably lead to GM bees", so he would appear to be contradicting himself. >we >shouldn't go there in case the information encourages big business (lured by >the prospects of making enormous fortunes from the beekeeping industry?!) >into making GM bees? This is an argument nobody had advanced; but thanx for mentioning it, because if we may judge by the behaviour of 'big business' so far wrt GM-plants, what Gavin says intending irony should be taken on the level. >I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they >do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it. This is the first constructive remark from Gavin - and one which I applaud. Secret science compounds the difficulties inherent in GM, so yes let's require from the start that any results be promptly pubd. The UK-USA 'public' human DNA sequencing has met this condition throughout; J Celera Venter pointedly did not. But, while I agree with Gavin that any bee DNA sequences should be published, I repeat there's no foreseeable good they could be used for. Pure science they might be (tho' junk, as I've pointed out - with dishonest oversimplification in the slogan The Big Four Rule OK); but applied ? not likely. > OK then, here we are back to GM-bashing! Who was ever 'GM-bashing'?? A few of us have offered reasoning, and suggested URLs; it is mischievous, and false, to call this 'GM-bashing'. And, I would suggest, provocative; therefore I wonder whether the moderators should let this sort of stuff onto our list. > (Or just plain trolling?) I won't be the only one unfamiliar with this jargon. Again I appeal for discussion *on the level* regarding GM. It is too important to be treated as just an arena for slang & loose abuse. Let us say what we mean. > I thought that we were going to leave this topic alone. Since when? Let's keep clear who initiated what. An anonymous contributor brought up the idea of sequencing bee-DNA. I responded by expressing an opinion on the implication that this could do us good. Sequencing is intimately, irretrievably tied up with splicing synthetic genes into living organisms, so bee-DNA sequencing deserves to be watched v carefully. I still see no reason to do it. BTW am I to believe that manners such as Gavin displayed from a British address have actually jumped the Atlantic, or is he just a transient in the Mother Country ;-} R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:02:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: AFB under control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PB responded: > Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he > used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better > on their own. No scientist would support this. Reply; I did. You are required to take my work that I do not treat for any thing in my bee yards. Or you may come and see or take the work of out state bee inspector that there is no AFB in my hives. Scientific support or not there is three (3) beekeepers in NM who do not treat. One of those beekeepers is a past presedent of the New Mexico Beekeepers Assoication. I will get his permission to post his name and phone number so some who wish may call him to see if he in facts treats for AFB. Regards, Lee Deming, NM USA 505 544 6639 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:27:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who was ever 'GM-bashing'?? A few of us have offered reasoning, > and suggested URLs; it is mischievous, and false, to call this > 'GM-bashing'. And, I would suggest, provocative; therefore I wonder > whether the moderators should let this sort of stuff onto our list. We're moderators, not Mothers. We stop SPAM, viruses, binaries, most name calling and the blatant abuse, but otherwise, we figure everyone is adult (in the non-porno sense) and sit back to watch the heavies duke it out. > Let's keep clear who initiated what. Yes, but no matter the provocation, what *you* post under your name is what you post under your name. > BTW am I to believe that manners such as Gavin displayed from a > British address have actually jumped the Atlantic, or is he just a > transient in the Mother Country ;-} Brits... allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Before the exchanges between gene splicers and splicer dicers get too heated up, let me remind that BEE-L is for the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Seems to me that evey post following the initial comment has offered little if any substance. And the original statement that spraked these digressions, > Anon. wrote: > There is a good chance that the > honey bee will be chosen for an upcoming genome project. as near as I can tell is someone's opinion! Pointing towards the basis for this statement, preferable including documentation about the proposed "upcoming genome project" that has a good chance of being chosen would help us become more informed. Otherwise the original statement (unsubstantiated noise) and all subsequent discussions have been little more than rehashing old stuff. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? In-Reply-To: <200201232102.g0NL2Fh20272@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Where are the moderators and why wasn't this luddite dribble left in the >trash? If the human genome project has extra funds to spend and they choose to sequence the honey bee we all would gain research into our shared industry. However is not likely that they we spend the extra money on the honey bee as both the beef and pork industry are also lobbying heavily for the funds. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AFB under control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, This is the last thing I have to say about this, unless anyone has specific questions. The New Zealand approach to AFB is radical, but their goal is to *not have AFB*. Now, modern beekeeping started about 150 years ago, with Langstroth's frame. He saw immediately its usefulness in that combs could be removed, examined, and at times -- exchanged. Langstroth was also at the forefront of the effort to have *better* bees (based on the criteria of the time). Exchanging combs is crucial to all the beekeeping that I do: raising queens, making nucs, supering, etc. To not be able to exchange frames from one hive to another is my worst nightmare. Therefore, I run 200+ hives with a zero tolerance for AFB. I can exchange combs because *I don't have AFB*. Unless you are studying AFB, there is no justification for having it. Because commercial operators have tons of it, does not make it OK, a good thing, or acceptable. If someone told me my choice was between having no AFB and being able to freely exchange combs -- OR -- to stop exchanging combs altogether to avoid spreading AFB throughout my outfit, guess what? Peter Borst Ithaca NY 14850 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honeybee Genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin said "I hadn't heard that someone wanted to sequence the bee genome, but if they do, and if they will permit wide use of that information, I applaud it." Hear, hear. There is at least one annual recurring multi-million dollar effort going on in the US that is focusing on the honeybee's nervous system. I suspect there is at least one additional similar project, and I know for certain that presumably-qualified researchers are trying to get support for still more. These efforts have already led to GM honeybees; albeit on a small scale. As anyone knows who has read Seeley's The Wisdom of the Hive, these animals we love and respect are truly remarkable. I have no doubt that their continued study will make life more comfortable (if not more meaningful) for humans and a better understanding of their genetic makeup will almost certainly be a critical part of these efforts. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: 'genome project' ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann wrote: > Sequencing is > intimately, irretrievably tied up with splicing synthetic genes into living > organisms, so bee-DNA sequencing deserves to be watched v carefully. I > still see no reason to do it. Splicing came along well before any sequencing was even contemplated. And it was crude. Fired some natural, not synthetic, living material into leaves of plants and hope it took. I do not think that has changed much. The practitioners have no complete map of the dna but are operating on trial and error, using bacteria tags to see if it takes. Sequencing, especially the human gnome project and the protein project are aimed at understanding what does what so disease can be cured by drugs that counter the "bad" dna or protein. The same thing would happen with bees, if it were done. And that is unlikely, especially in the near future, because it is the protein sequences that are the key to bee disease, along with but not necessarily DNA. And they are a bear to decipher. And can't we all get along. This is getting personal and not directed at facts. Where are the moderators? Can I post something on FGMO to raise the entropy of the universe a bit more? ;^) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticide abuse/cotton boll weavel extermination, etc. (was: Re: IPM vs. Strips) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Green said: > There's nothing wrong with noting Mr. Cherubini's agenda. There is something very wrong with accusing someone of having an "agenda" (selling pesticides) when that person is pointing out a textbook example of an IPM program that has clearly reduced both the amount of pesticides used and the frequency with which they are used. Anything that reduces the amount of pesticides used is a good thing for bees and other pollinators, without qualification or exception. I'm not saying that pesticide vendors are suddenly the beekeeper's best friend, but I am saying that they want to make a buck, and have figured out that IPM is a good business. Most pesticides are cutthroat commodity products, and IPM support is a high-profit value-added service. The chemical companies know that they can make more profit selling less pesticides and more IPM consulting. Good for them! Good for farmers. Good for us. > ...I eventually came to the conclusion that many of the supposedly > impartial advisors, including the extension service, were also pesticide > salesmen. The system linked them together so that even if one human > link had doubts, once could not extricate oneself. The chemical companies > got a lock on the whole system of pest control. It was lucrative. I am not paranoid enough to see gunmen behind every grassy knoll, but even if one were to accept the statement above as an accurate historical analysis, it seems intuitively obvious that chemical company advocacy of participation in IPM programs would be proof of a major change in their posture, and a significant move away from the errors of the past. > Malathion on cotton is one of these issues. The losses both of domestic > honeybees and wild pollinators has so far been pretty easy to keep > under wraps, so it can be ignored. But what's in your closets? Can you put your wardrobe where your mouth is on this issue, or are you suffering from "cotton mouth"? :) Come to think of it, the internet uses lots of electricity, much of which is generated from dirty, high-sulfur coal. It follows that even participating in this mailing list has a negative impact on the climate, air quality, and survival of pollinating insects. Ironic, isn't it? (I wonder if one could work out a rough number on CO2 and SO2 per megabyte.) > The more pesticides are used, the more they are needed. It is an endless > circle, with an ever more sterile environment and ever increasing profits > for pesticide manufacturers. Then IPM programs are your best friend, because they reduce pesticide use to as low a level as possible, and can lead to a near elimination of the use of the most toxic types. > The losses of pollinators from the use of malathion and other > insecticides on cotton, or for mosquito control, been called to Mr. > Chrubini's attention several times, Blaming the manufacturers of chemicals for the misdeeds of our own government in "mosquito control" is about as appropriate as blaming auto makers for road rage incidents. The chem manufacturers clearly label their products with instructions that are intended to protect bees and other pollinating insects. Offhand, I'd suggest that the makers of the chemicals would be potential allies in an effort to get state and local governments to stop ignoring pesticide labels. No one likes the bad press that results when one's products are misused. > Do you think the boll weevil extermination program complied with the > bee protection label directions? Not a chance! That's a serious accusation. A felony, to be precise. I would hope that anyone with proof of such crimes would report them, and insist upon prosecution. Failing that, I would expect the media would be interested. > I don't know how some specific situations could be dealt with without > pesticides... I don't either, so I feel that IPM programs are a good way to work towards a steady reduction in the amount of pesticides used. Pesticides cost serious money and cost even more to apply, so farmers who invest the effort in IPM see a direct impact on their bottom line. > I'm already convinced that, if pesticide users were to become competent in > understanding the pests, usage could be cut 90%. What I see is that there is > now little incentive to do so, despite all the shibboleths of the industry. Then you should be buying Mr. Cherubini a beer, and patting him on the back for seeing the light, and starting down the path you would like to see him walk. Who better to advocate IPM programs than the pesticide salesmen? Remember, even Darth Vader turned out to be someone's dad. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Workers reared in drone cells? Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone cells. I do not know if 1). this occurs under natural conditions or not and 2). whether it is seasonal. however I observed both A. mellifera and A. cerana queens laying fertilized eggs in drone cells, late in the fall (Sept-Oct), when FORCED to lay eggs. I.e. the queen was caged in a frame holder (a whole frame can fit with queen excluders on both sides so workers can roam but the queen is imprisoned. she has no choice but to lay on the frame). Strangely workers rear these workers "to term" they emerge as normal workers. I guess it is not so strange since drones can also be reared in worker sized cells (when the queen is gone and workers start laying). My impression is that the queen somehow refuses to lay unfertilized (drone) eggs in drone cells when it is late in the season. but I am pretty sure she does so in summer. Evidence for queen intelligence ? :) :) Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:01:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd writes: <> When I was a kid, almost everyone got measles at some point; it was taken for granted. In other parts of the world, it was, and is, a major killer, but in the UK there used to be only a few deaths a year. For a good many years now, children have been vaccinated, and the disease has almost disappeared here. Over the last few years, there have been fears over the safety of the triple vaccine used, which covers, measles, mumps and rubella. There's no clarity about the truth of this, but the government responds to public concern with sheer arrogance, and refuses to make the vaccines available separately. The result is that vaccination rates are now so low that there is a serious danger of a measles epidemic, and with little or no resistance in part of the population, it could indeed be a disaster. A little humility and willingness to listen from the government could save the situation, but how often do you meet a humble politician? <> This may have been due to a failure to identify it. ROB Manley records having bought four AFB hives in about 1908. He says: 'I sent a sample of diseased brood to the British Bee Journal, who diagnosed 'Black Brood'. I am not, even to this day, quite sure what black brood was supposed to be, and I am a little doubtful if the authorities at Bedford Street (or was it Henrietta Street then?) were either.' My 1924 edition of Cowan's book describes two forms of foul brood, strong-smelling foul brood, which is clearly EFB, and odourless foul brood, which is AFB. Things may possibly have been clearer on the other side of the Atlantic, but it seems that the information necessary to identify the disease has been available to UK beekeepers for less than a century. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:47:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AFB under control In-Reply-To: <200201241512.g0OFCRh26927@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii pb wrote: Exchanging combs is crucial to all the beekeeping that I do: raising queens, making nucs, supering, etc. To not be able to exchange frames from one hive to another is my worst nightmare. Reply: This is practical commercial beekeeping. Interchangeable combs are necessary for good production of pollen and honey and maintaining good broodnests. pb continuing: Therefore, I run 200+ hives with a zero tolerance for AFB. I can exchange combs because *I don't have AFB*. Reply: Now this is impractical beekeeping. Zero tolerance is an unobtainable goal even in Nature in the real world. You only think you can exchange combs because "you" don't have AFB. But a steril environment is as bad or worse then chemical overtreatment and AFB taking hold and ransacking colonies. With your method you develop no immunity within your bees for AFB and doom them to sudden death should it appear. This is not natures way with no second best for living. The weak die and the healthy live. Perpetuating the healthy and letting the weak die in field management is what makes bees strong. Also pulling AFB when the bees cannot handle it. A handful of spores in cells is nothing to worry about with bees that can clean on a good system. Unless you are studying AFB, there is no justification for having it. Reply: Wrong. Unless you have a little and learn how to control it the old way you have out of control bees and hives dying in mass. We have I would guess 1-2% infection within our colonies and many looking at our bees find nothing. You have to show them how to look. We know when we get a good beekeeper looking for he can find the 1-2 or so cells on a frame in a small colony. The trouble is most beekeepers need to have over a few dozen cells of foul to be able to even find it with their eyes. They are not trained to find it in the beginning and watch it and note when it gets out of control and then pull it routinely. pb wrote: Because commercial operators have tons of it, does not make it OK, a good thing, or acceptable. Reply: Yes, this is very true and shows bad management IMPOV and indicates that training is needed to show the beekeepers involved how to field manage foul properly by comb culling and remelting. Also shows that the person does not know how to select and perpetuate his bee stocks for natural resistance to foul also. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Pesticide abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A survey by Nebraska agriculture engineers reported in fall 1994 in Chemical Application Journal that found that two out of every three pesticide applicators were making significant application errors the result of inaccurate calibration, incorrect mixing, worn equipment and failure to read the product label. According to the article by Larry Reichenberger, "The Billion-Dollar Blunder," these mistakes in application were costing farmers from $2 to $12 per acre in added chemical expense, potential crop damage and threatened weed competition. The findings were bolstered by EPA's own surveys in the late 1980's and early 1990's, particularly in Region VI, that found that a large portion of the pesticide user community does not: 1) read the label prior to applications, 2) follow the directions for use, resulting in both over and under application of pesticides, and 3) communicate information about the pesticide being applied in the agricultural field to workers. Dye said that OPP reviews and issues approximately 3,500 pesticide label amendments per year, and that if users are not reading the labels, which she said was a special problem with products they are familiar with, they may be missing important new safety information. . . . A 1994 study of pesticide labels published in the JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN OPTOMETRIC ASSOCIATION found that it requires an 11th-grade cognitive reading level to understand a pesticide label, which means that 40 to 50 percent of the general population cannot read and understand the directions on a pesticide product label, even if all members of the public had the necessary 20/30 visual acuity to read the fine print. . . . Ten Common Pesticide Infractions Listed below are ten common infractions of pesticide laws as found by inspectors in one EPA region. The list provides some good points for pesticide training classes because it serves as a reminder of some of the simple things that can be overlooked. The points are valid for both private and commercial applicators. 1.Invalid business or applicator license - Do you know where your card is? If so, check the expiration date. If not, well ... 2.Label violation - This includes the use of a product on plants (or sites) no longer supported by the label or not following label instructions. For example, the labels for many pesticides have been changed over the past 4 to 5 years as a result of the EPA's reregistration program. Consequently, many uses for products, such as diazinon and malathion, have been eliminated. Some applicators may continue to buy and use products on plants (sites) that are no longer on the label. Reading the label before purchase and use is imperative. 3.Improper mixing - Read compatibility statements and other directions carefully. Problems here can be due to prohibited tank mixes that cause interactions. There can be plant reactions from combinations of certain classes of pesticides that are applied days, or even weeks, apart. 4.Failure to survey the site before applying a pesticide - This can range from overlooking or forgetting a sinkhole in a field to accidental spraying of a pet's water bowl or children's toys by a lawn care applicator. 5.Poor preparation for spills or other emergencies - How many application rigs carry some soap, water, disposable towels, and an eyewash kit? Worker protection standards now are very specific about providing decontamination materials. Applicators should be familiar with how to handle spills of the pesticides they are transporting or applying. 6.Drift complaints - Particle and/or vapor drift can result in off-target movement of a pesticide. Knowledge of product characteristics and attention to environmental conditions such as wind speeds or inversions will reduce the potential for problems. Be aware of sensitive nearby crops or plants. 7.Incomplete or missing records - Private and commercial applicators must keep appropriate records of pesticide applications. Dealers who sell restricted use pesticides also must maintain records that contain specific. information about products and purchasers. 8.Spray tank not properly cleaned; applicator not familiar with tank's history - This can lead to crop damage or illegal residues. Purchase of used spray equipment should include determining the types of products that had been applied by the previous owner. Solvents in some EC formulations can serve as tank cleaners. This can result in inadvertent crop injury by the new owner. 9.Applicator makes erroneous product safety claims - While there could be cases of overselling a product, lack of familiarity with the label may be a major reason for unrealistic claims. Read beyond just the crop and rate information. Look critically for cautions or warnings, such as crop or variety sensitivity or effects of specific weather conditions on applications or product efficacy. 10.Failure to use required personal protective equipment - Requirements are spelled out now and may even require specific types of gloves or spray suits. Use quality equipment, and keep it clean and functional. Replace it as needed. http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/document/labels/infractn.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:40:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? In-Reply-To: <200201241652.g0OGqTh02184@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Zachary wrote: Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone cells. I do not know if 1). this occurs under natural conditions or not and 2). whether it is seasonal. Reply: Workers being reared in drone cells!!! Interesting concept. But what about rearing workers unnaturally in overly artificially enlarged worker cells that go beyond the bounds of possibility for the natural drone size ratio to worker cells of 20% difference and you end up with all your workerbees and colonies on a pseudo system out-of-balance with nautre? Can placing combs to raise workers in colonies on foundation bigger then the 20% ratio difference or even near to that ratio be a healthy situation? How do the parasitic mites that naturallly attack the drones know the difference and secondary diseases for that matter also. All the mites see is MORE food like in the natural difference between workers and drones of Apis cerana. If 5.5mm was quoted by Baudoux in Belguim in the early 1900s pre 1934 to be natural drone size then what is 5.4mm size of bigger other then trouble? Now Baudoux was referring to worder size also in the natural in his area as being 5.0mm which is IMPOV the upper limit of the natural spectrum of 4.7mm to 5.0mm for the most part. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > My 1924 edition of Cowan's book describes two forms of foul brood, > strong-smelling foul brood, which is clearly EFB, and odourless foul brood, > which is AFB. Things may possibly have been clearer on the other side of the > Atlantic, but it seems that the information necessary to identify the disease > has been available to UK beekeepers for less than a century. Both efb and afb can have or not have odors, so it is not a distinction. When thy do smell, efb smells sour and afb smells like a "glue pot" (ABC+XYZ of Beekeeping). Having smelled afb and not smelled anything observing efb, I can only attest that afb just smells bad. The Hive and the Honey Bee says the efb smell may be from other bacteria. In any case, they can both stink or be near odorless. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Disease Resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed PB: Initially, I was criticizing someone who said the *only* treatment he used was to pull a few frames from the hives and let them get better on their own. No scientist would support this. Response: I guess Steve Taber is not a scientist then. Nor is Marla Spivak. I can name more who have recommended exactly this (or a close variation) in writing or a public lecture. PB: Well, neither Dr. Spivak, not Steve Taber are here to respond, but I will point out that neither of them recommends harboring disease in order to develop resistance. What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest and breeding from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. This requires no diseased hives. from 45 YEARS OF FOULBROOD by Dr. Bill Wilson: "The more recent development of hygienic stocks has been mainly under the direction of Mr. Steve Taber (1992) and Dr. Marla Spivak (Spivak & Reuter 1998). Hygienic lines of bees often show resistance to more diseases than just AFB. An outstanding review of hygienic behavior in honey bees was published recently by Spivak and Gilliam (1998). Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant bee stocks that are widely available to all beekeepers. The most likely stock will come from a hygienic-behavior breeding program. Furthermore, beekeepers should be encouraged to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those that fail to respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. " Spivak, M. and G.S. Reuter. 1998. Honey bee hygienic behavior. Amer. Bee J. 138:283-286. Spivak, M. and M. Gilliam. 1998. Hygienic behaviour of honey bees and its application for control of brood diseases and Varroa. Parts I & II. Bee World 79:124-134 & 169-186. Taber, S. 1992. Resistant bees. Glean. Bee Culture 120:78-79. Taber, S. 1998. Resistance to Disease, Amer. Bee J. 138:47-48. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:33:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading the different mails* that have been posted over the recent past, a thought relating to a mail that I posted several months ago came to mind. The mail suggested that comments on the preoccupation's of beekeepers and the allied industries could be formulated into a list. A list that may then be used to synthesize an overall picture of present/possible and potential activity direction. The underlying reason being that forewarned may result in increased preparedness! The result was : 1 reply. The following possibilities may have resulted in the lack of replies: For the group, the mail was irrelevant, list impossible to formulate, individuals not caring to look with a little effort into the future, interesting but some other individual would respond. Connecting the above to mails* on V.d. and what techniques to use and where new ones will arrive from, AFB and again what is happening in the field and what possibilities are for the future, plus the very recent topic suggesting possible large scale "gene mapping" via. nucleotide investigation highlight for me that there is still the great need for an overall perspective to be created. This being available to all (maybe in different formats for different levels of need). Taking the "genome" project - if and when it arrives, the results and information gained will serve to what ends? Observing discussions and disputes over that material gained in the investigation of the human equivalent - which was AFAIK, done with the aim of supplying freely available information suggests that benefit will be limited to those who can make cash. Sequences and any changes made will be copyrighted, the outcome sold with royalties, law suites undertaken due to open air (accidental crossings) fertilization with non authorised material etc. etc. If, as so many times in the past, we wait and only react when pressured to do so is a poor reflection on what we could do - with pre thought! It was obvious what was going to happen when treating V.d. with "chemicals" - and even so, the response was for country after country to follow practically the same procedure. Antibiotic resistance - Many antibiotics are already effectively lost and as each one drops of the list, a frantic search for the next variant is put in place. Get together, not only realise the end result, but plan ahead - well ahead! Put in place a well defined strategy, ensuring as many differing conditions are covered as possible. These developed and developing strategies as suggested would need to be easily obtained by a user population. - a centralised source, with national contacts. At the moment, any search into what ever problem inflicting itself on our bees or allied industry very quickly runs into an academic brick wall, often associated with industrial "secrets" and "no right to know". The knowledge is there for who? A group like Bee-L performs a great service to beekeepers but is hampered by rumour, mistruths, correct facts and reasonable journalism - all mixed with the possibility to pick and choose. It, to my way of thinking often reflects the lack of strategic direction being suffered. The problems for bees and beekeeping are piling up at a far rate, with suggestions that they will continue to do so in the increasingly man altered environment (the one we are supposed to be removing problems from!) Therefore, as an industry deemed by some as an organised affair, let's start showing intelligent planning. Candidates for future problems in our industry? The Bionic bee, bees being considered as pests in some quarters of the agricultural sector, future development of pesticide marketing and authorisation, independent research/ researchers, honey adulteration/ labeling........ Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:07 -0500, Zachary Huang wrote: >Just wonder if any of your here have seen workers being reared in drone >cells. A professor at the University of Guelph once told me about an experiment he performed with drone comb. He shook a package of bees into a hive with nothing but drone comb to see how the queen would react. After laying a lot of unfertilized eggs, the queen started laying fertilized eggs in drone cells. However he said only half of these workers (that developed in drone cells) hatched out. The unhatched workers turned out to be facing the comb's midrib so could not chew their way out. After a little more investigation it was determined that the reason for this was that when pupating, the workers use the rough capping as compared to the smooth cell bottom to orient their heads towards the capping. I assume in a drone cell, workers feel the smooth cell bottom on one side and some empty air on the other, hence they guessed wrong about which end was the smoothest 50% of the time. I mentioned all this a few years ago, Zachary, which reminds me of a joke. Where did Noah keep his bees? In his archives. (Ark,Ark,Ark) On CBC's radio program Quirks and Quarks last weekend, I heard a scientist saying that animals like snakes, which have periods of lethargy, prevent atrophy of muscles by sending regular nerve impulses to their muscles. Does anybody know if there is research showing that bees do the same thing over winter? How about beekeepers on computers? Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? In-Reply-To: <3C508BBD.31D52E27@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/24/02 10:33 PM, you wrote: >Taking the "genome" project - if and when it arrives, the results and >information gained will serve to what ends? Mapping the genomes is a powerful tool and will be used for good and bad things, dependent on *motive*. Is the motive *to understand*, *to heal*, or to gain *power* and *money*? >At the moment, any search into what ever problem inflicting itself on >our bees or allied industry very quickly runs into an academic brick >wall, often associated with industrial "secrets" and "no right to know". >The knowledge is there for who? I work in an academic setting and I have tried to share everything I know. I admit, some academics will not now talk with me because I am not *secretive* but so be it. >A group like Bee-L performs a great service to beekeepers but is >hampered by rumour, mistruths, correct facts and reasonable journalism - >all mixed with the possibility to pick and choose. It, to my way of >thinking often reflects the lack of strategic direction being suffered. It is not that hard to separate the rumors from the facts. The rumor mongers never have any independent corroboration. >Candidates for future problems in our industry? There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem. PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, neither Dr. Spivak, not Steve Taber are here to respond, but I will > point out that neither of them recommends harboring disease in order to > develop resistance. Well, let's ask Aaron. Maybe I was dreaming, but I thought I am sure that was her I heard clearly recommending something very much like that at Apimondia when she said every beekeeper should try to maintain at least one yard without any treatment whatsoever, in order to observe and select. Frankly, given the management and observation skills of the average beekeeper (and bee haver?) the idea struck many of us as hair-brained and Aaron queried her at some length publicly. > What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. > This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest and breeding > from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. This requires no diseased > hives Many years back, from time-to-time in his magazine articles, and before he went to Europe for a while, Steve Taber, it seems to me, was advocating that beekeepers and breeders challenge bees with AFB. Later he moved to recommending using freezer killed brood, which made the whole idea more palatable to beekeepers. One of the things that slowed the acceptance of selecting for HYG twenty years ago and more was that it seemed to require inserting AFB into hives. The current use of surrogate tests has made the idea an easier sell. It also seems to me that I did read an article quite some long time back, when the whole idea of HYG was not so well accepted in which Steve did say that he was not concerned about AFB in in his outfit and even considered it a good thing when selecting. As far as personal experience is concerned, as a bee inspector, I have seen bees that seem totally immune to AFB. In one memorable case, cited here before, every hive in the yard of 40 or so was broken down and full, of scale with the exception of 3 or so. These latter bees were robbing the AFB deadouts and thriving without showing any active disease. I was amazed. Moreover, recently, I had a chance to observe Lusby's operation. They use no treatments at all for mites or brood diseases. Over a two day period in seven yards, we opened 100 hives or so at random, and inspected 30 or so closely. On one frame in one hive, we found one cell of AFB. The other cappings on the frame were slightly discolored, and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under control. Dee said she and Ed argue about whether to pull that frame or just to let the bees handle it. We just left the frame, marked the hive, and moved on. (Note: Don't try this at home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. Lusbys have unusual bee stock, considerable expertise and insight, a unique management system, and an unique environment). In my own experience, when we still had AFB, we decided one year to move any AFB into a nurse yard and attempt to clear them up with OTC. We moved about 10 in from various yards and, I think gave them one dusting. As often happens, we did not get back for a while -- several weeks and when we did there was no sign whatsoever of any AFB. Did moving make the difference, the OTC, a honey flow? I often wonder, since even three dustings will sometimes not clean up AFB. > Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant bee stocks that > are widely available to all beekeepers. The most likely stock will come > from a hygienic-behavior breeding program. Furthermore, beekeepers should > be encouraged to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at > least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those that fail to > respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. " That's good advice. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Disease Resistance In-Reply-To: <002b01c1a5ae$5537d720$bde5a1c6@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen wrote: >As far as personal experience is concerned, as a bee inspector, I have seen bees that seem totally immune to AFB. In one memorable case, cited here before, every hive in the yard of 40 or so was broken down and full, of scale with the exception of 3 or so. These latter bees were robbing the AFB deadouts and thriving without showing any active disease. I was amazed. OK, but does that mean they have "disease resistance" and is it *hereditary*? Let me give an example. In 1955, in the middle of the polio epidemic, I got polio. (At the time, everyone was paranoid about polio; some people were even afraid to swim in public places for fear of getting it from the water.) I was one of a family of 5 people. No one else in my family got it. Were they "disease resistant" and was it hereditary? Furthermore, if they were disease resistant, does that mean they shouldn't need to be vaccinated? In fact, in 1956, when everyone was getting vaccinated, I stood there and argued with the school nurse, telling her I didn't need to be vaccinated, since I already had it. I got vaccinated anyway. There are people today that refuse to get vaccinated. Don't need it, they say. And some even get polio from the vaccine. But what does that mean? We have a national policy that all children should get vaccinated against a variety of diseases. I wonder how many beekeepers forego *tetanus* vaccine? I hope not many, because a beekeeper in our area recently got tetanus and it was not a pretty thing. He was in a coma for many weeks and barely pulled through. The long and short of i t is, you may *say* you have disease resistance, but how do you know? And how can you propagate it? I submit that it *is not that easy* to propagate *any* line of bees. It requires scientific care and effort. It is not just a matter of saying "looks like a breeder". (I have actually seen people in the queen rearing profession do this.) Allen writes: >(Note: Don't try this at home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. Lusbys have unusual bee stock, considerable expertise and insight, a unique management system, and an unique environment). Perhaps this is all true. But then, if they have "a unique management system, and an unique environment" -- how much weight can be placed on "unusual bee stock"? We have no way of knowing whether the low incidence of disease is due to 1) unusual bee stock, 2) considerable expertise and insight, 3) a unique management system, or 4) a unique environment. See what I mean? TOO MANY VARIABLES = NO DEFINITE CONCLUSION. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Well, let's ask Aaron. Maybe I was dreaming, but I thought > I am sure that was her I heard clearly recommending > something very much like that at Apimondia when she said > every beekeeper should try to maintain at least one > yard without any treatment whatsoever, in order to observe and select. > Aaron queried her at some length publicly. Yes, the not-so infamous "Bees going south" query! Specifically, Marla was addressing not treating for Varroa (it was Varroa j. back then although Apimondia '99 in Vancouver was the first public announcement of Varroa d.). Marla was speaking of her hygienic strains and recommending that at least one yard remain treatment free too keep selection pressure up so one could identify what (if any) hives were able to withstand the assault. The questions were asked, at what point should the beekeeper step in to save what may be shaping up to be a total collapse of an entire yard. Unfortuantely situation of "a total collapse of an entire yard" was worded as 'the yard going south", which Marla interpreted as the beekeeper migrating the entire yard to Florida or some such thing, and the poor international translaters were totally lost! If you were there it was really quite comical. But I believe Marla's answer was stick to your guns, and if the entire yard collapses then there was nothing in that yard worth savaing as far as selecting for resistance (in this case Varroa resistance). I have since heard Marla state that her hygienic stock is more sussecptible to Varroa when compared to Harbo's SMR lines, but superior with respect to AFB. This is another issue (select for one trait at the expense of others) that has been discussed before. But yes, Marla did recommend leaving a yard treatment free to keep up selection pressure in reference to Varroa. I have heard similar recommendation regarding treatment-free yards from others in the research arena. Dr. H.R. Shimanuki has recommended getting off the TM merry-go-around, a yard at a time, but the context here was not regarding selection for resistance, it was solely to stop treating with chemicals. Shim recommended stop treating on a yard basis, keeping diligent watch on that yard and he was clear to state that any AFB outbreaks were to be cured by fire. I've heard Steve Tabor recommend harboring disease, but this was in reference to chalkbrood. I doubt highly that he'd draw lines between chalk and AFB. Steve preaches the only way you're going to breed bees resistent to whatever is to keep whatever around in your apiary so you'll know which stock resists and which stock succumbs. And again, the context of what he stated publicly was chalk. He cautioned that you must be wary of the source of your pollen (if you feed pollen) because pollen from an unknown source is likely to contain mummies. Then he went on to boast that it is the mummy laden pollen he wants so he can be sure his stock will be chalk resistant. If his bees can't stand up to the pressure he culls the bees. I have never heard Steve say the same thing about harboring AFB (perhaps because most states have laws against harboring AFB - although frankly, I doubt Steve is one to care excessively about laws) but I'd bet he keeps the same sort of pressure on his bees when he's selecting for AFB resistance. I imaging he has a supply of spore ridden combs that he seeds his breeder hives with, breeds from the survivors, culls those that break out. In fact, this may be in print in his book _Breeding_Super_Bees_, but I cannot say for sure. Personally I wouldn't try this at home and don't recommend it. My strategy is to buy the stock from those who are doing the assessments, and even then all hives are suspect. Claims are one thing, actual performance is what counts. > What they *do say* is to try to develop Hygienic Lines. > This is done by inserting frozen brood into the brood nest > and breeding from colonies which clean out dead brood quickly. > This requires no diseased hives. Yes, this is the current recommendation. This will identify good housekeeping bees, which can be an assist to keeping AFB at bay. However, there may be other things that assist AFB resistance independant of good housekeeping habits. Some bees may have physiological advantages that may help with AFB resistance that may be lost when selecting for good housekeeping habits (select for one trait at the expense of others). > It also seems to me that I did read an article in which > Steve did say that he was not concerned about AFB in in > his outfit and even considered it a good thing when selecting. Again, I recall he says something similar in _Breeding_Super_Bees_, but I would only recommend this to the VERY FEW beekeepers who pay that close attention to their bees and their bees' needs. For most, this is playing with fire. If you likely to get burned, buy the stock from reputable breeders who make a living selecting for and raising it. > Moreover, recently, I had a chance to observe Lusby's > operation. What, did gravity stop working? ;-) > Dee said she and Ed argue about whether to pull that (infected) > frame or just to let the bees handle it. We just left the frame, > marked the hive, and moved on. (Note: Don't try this at > home, kids. This will not work for most other beekeepers. YUP! Unless the beekeeper is EXTREMELY skilled, playing with AFB like this, or as Tabor hints, is begging for disaster. >> "Long-term control strategy needs to include AFB-resistant >> bee stocks that are widely available to all beekeepers. The >> most likely stock will come from a hygienic-behavior breeding >> program. Furthermore, beekeepers should be encouraged >> to inspect the health of the brood in their own colonies at >> least once per year. Heavily AFB-infested colonies or those >> that fail to respond to chemical treatments should be destroyed. Just though that deserved to be stated a third time! Aaron Morris - thinking leave playing with fire to the fire-eaters! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:20:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Bees in Africa? Comments: cc: muhammad madany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this a while ago. Can anyone help. I suspect that South african bees are out of the question due to the possibility of accidental Cape bee introduction. > > hello allen,my name is muhammad madany and american living in the gambia,west africa.i would like to start an apiary but the people here don't work with the bees, they just go into the hives at night and take the >honey. > > the african bees are wild and will sting everyone in a half mile radias if there hive is bothered.do you know anyone who is doing beekeeping in africa who can share information&exsperience?also do you know of anyone raising italian bees in africa? muhammad madany ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: >and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under control. In the book Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases (Morse, Flottum): p. 45: “Shimanuki, et al. (1992) found that antibacterial material from chalkbrood mummies inhibited the growth of Melissococcus pluton and B. larvae. This material was subsequently identified as the fatty acid, linoleic acid (Feldlaufer et al. 1993)” p. 95: “A recent interesting discovery about the interaction of bee diseases concerns the effect of chalkbrood on European and American foulbrood. Shimanuki, et al. (1992) noted a decline in the incidence of European foulbrood in the United States was accompanied by an increase in chalkbrood. Ethanol extracts of mixtures of mycelia and spores of A. apis were shown to contain an antimicrobial substance active against the bacterial pathogens of both European foulbrood and American foulbrood diseases.” Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Fwd: Re: resistance to AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PB: >I have been involved in a discussion about the current approach to treating AFB. Several people have made the assertion that when they encounter it, they simply removed diseased brood combs, and apply no other treatment. They go on to state that they are "breeding for resistance" and usually cite your work. What is your reaction to such assertions? MS: >You are asking two separate questions. I think it is a good idea to remove diseased brood combs. It might be better to remove all combs and start the colony on foundation, but removing at least some combs is a good idea. > >The second part: removing diseased brood combs is not really breeding for resistance. Breeding for resistance would entail not propagating any colony that has disease, and raising queens from colonies that do not show any symptoms of disease. In our experiments we found that even some hygienic colonies came down with clinical symptoms of AFB after we challenged them by putting combs with AFB scale in the colonies. But most of these colonies recovered on their own, without chemical treatment, or removing combs. They simply were able to remove the diseased brood from the combs, but it took a few weeks to "get a handle" on it all. > >So, removing diseased combs by a beekeeper is "hygienic" but that is a human behavior, and is very different than hygienic bees removing diseased brood from the cells. The hygienic beekeepers are not breeding for hygienic behavior in the bees. I encourage them to continue the practice, but please don't confuse it with the bee breeding I am doing. (The best sources on breeding come from Laidlaw and Page's book on queen rearing and breeding.) > >Best, Marla Spivak ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:21:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both efb and afb can have or not have odors, so it is not a distinction. When thy do smell, efb smells sour and afb smells like a "glue pot" (ABC+XYZ of Beekeeping). Having smelled afb and not smelled anything observing efb, I can only attest that afb just smells bad. The Hive and the Honey Bee says the efb smell may be from other bacteria. In any case, they can both stink or be near odorless. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine This is my point exactly; the information necessary to distinguish brood diseases was not available. Actually Cowan's description - which is far too long to quote here - isn't too bad in other respects, but without the benefit of the information available now, I do wonder whether I'd be able to diagnose properly on the basis of it. I don't have enough old beekeeping books to be able to pinpoint the date when these diseases were clearly distinguished in UK beekeeping literature, but my 1947 edition of Wedmore is clear enough. I have my doubts as to whether AFB emerged in the 19th Century, as one poster seemed to suggest; I think people just weren't identifying it, and that real knowledge of bee disease probably goes back only as far as the moveable comb hive. As I add to my book collection, I'll doubtless be able to put this more clearly. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:24:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Disease Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >and there were several other cells with dead larvae that had suffered > chalk or some other problem, but the bees seemed to have the AFB under > control. > p. 45: “Shimanuki, et al. (1992) found that antibacterial material from > chalkbrood mummies inhibited the growth of Melissococcus pluton and B. > larvae. This material was subsequently identified as the fatty acid, > linoleic acid (Feldlaufer et al. 1993)” I was aware of this and that's actually why mentioned the CB. I might also mention we saw very little CB, but one factor explaining this is no doubt the fact that the Lusbys have recently shaken all their hives onto foundation. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:37:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst states "There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem." Realising that my position is coming from idealistic tendencies. Is it not normal for other sectors to show co-ordinated organisation when they are confronted with levels of difficulties such as those faced by apiculture at the present? Varroa spread was easily predicted once the "cat was out of the bag". But each country waited until the pest arrived before instigating a plan of action - usually one that in the long term was doomed to fail. In such situations as this, it is surely logical and not beyond our capability to organise better courses of action. Pesticides: Why do we continue to accept that our colonies are devastated? Year in and year out. I suggest that if the same occurred to the average cattle owner, the authorities would be informed to get something done - and quickly! An apology with an insurance claim would not settle the matter. Especially if it was expected to occur over and over again. Also, Because there has been lack of policy in the past and policy is limited at the present, this is not a good recommendation that the "status quo" should continue into the future. Organise, plan and get action before the problem arises - and at a level required to get results! Peter Indre France ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:42:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Africa Allen, as I've posted before, I kept bees for the 9 years I spent in Africa, and I e-mailed the man in the Gambia with and offer of advice. As far as equipment, South Africa has a very well developed apicultural manufactoring industry, and with the South African Rand at an all time low, this would be a good source of equipment. A good scut would be better than Italians in Africa, especially in an evironment like the Gambia, provided that they were pure bred. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:39:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: resistance to AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The second part: removing diseased brood combs is not really breeding for resistance. Breeding for resistance would entail not propagating any colony that has disease, and raising queens from colonies that do not show any symptoms of disease. In our experiments we found that even some hygienic colonies came down with clinical symptoms of AFB after we challenged them by putting combs with AFB scale in the colonies. But most of these colonies recovered on their own, without chemical treatment, or removing combs. They simply were able to remove the diseased brood from the combs, but it took a few weeks to "get a handle" on it all. < < I think this is not contrary to what anyone here has been saying. There may be differing conclusions about what this means, though, depending on each individual beekeeper's expertise, environment, bee stock, medication practices, age of equipment, availability of drawn comb, appraisal of the ambient disease levels, etc. As for removing combs, there are several reasons that removal makes sense, even if the beekeeper believes that the bees can clean up the remainder -- either because of having requeened with a HYG queen or other reasons, such as having added a drug or supplementary feed. Removal is advisable in most cases to eliminate the most obvious part of the spore load, to enable the bees to work on clean comb -- scaly comb is hard on small hives in marginal weather and actually repellent. Moreover, even if HYG or partially HYG stock is in use, there are better ways to test and maintain the trait than having breakdown in the hives and there is always the chance that an individual queen may not carry the trait or that a supercedure queen may open mate and break down. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:14:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Pesticide Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resistance to antibiotics, AFB, female V.d. are all in the limelight. Has any individual come across information concerning honeybee populations developing resistance to any level against pesticides? Sub-lethal quantities are being introduced into the hive on a daily basis. Therefore queens must be exposed to quantities that may effect her genetic components. Peter Inure France ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? Ted, Do you know if this is ever published? This is awesome information! and his name? perhaps I can do a search. I guess there were only 4 old bee profs in Guelph: Stu Dixon, R.W. Shuel, M.V. Smith, and Dr. Townsend, now, who was it that did the experiment? thanks! I hope it is not the new one (Otis or Scott-Dupree) -- I should know if it is them... Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:29:36 -0500, Ted Hancock wrote: >A professor at the University of Guelph once told me about an experiment he >performed with drone comb. He shook a package of bees into a hive with ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > > Peter Borst states > "There is not now and never has been a national policy (let alone > global) on any of the issues that confront us, like the one in New > Zealand. It is a past, present and future problem." > > Realising that my position is coming from idealistic tendencies. > > Is it not normal for other sectors to show co-ordinated organisation > when they are confronted with levels of difficulties such as those faced > by apiculture at the present? The problem, in its most basic terms, is that there are not enough commercial beekeepers and we are on the periphery of agriculture. In addition beekeepers either supply a commodity, honey, or a service, pollination, neither of which has a major in the pocket impact.( The results of pollination are nice statistics, but someone has to grow it first and they are the ones who get the money, not the beekeeper.) And I can attest that as a service group, the pollinators are at the beck and call of the growers. In essence, beekeeping does not have clout, even if organized. Too few and the monetary impact is not visible (except to the beekeeper). In Maine, our State Beekeeping organization joined with a larger Association of Ag groups, including the organic people. It looked like by doing so we would gain clout, but the clout was with the growers, especially since the pollinators are from out of state. We got nothing from joining so eventually gave up. I was the one who wanted us to join, so was disappointed with reality. I appreciate the intent of a global perspective, but, as I like to say, all beekeeping is local. I only have to note the difference of opinion on AFB to know that it would be near impossible to get any global consensus in beekeeping. Most of the problems of Beekeeping are currently handled by existing organizations and by both commercial beekeepers and scientists. There is a lot going on and it is not on the internet. What the Internet does best is let us know some of what is happening in those areas. What it does worst is disseminate opinion or falsehood as fact. Plus, I do not see the dark clouds and dire straits that seem to be portrayed. We have gone through a major hit from varroa but are still standing and many are doing quite well. Pesticide use is going down. I see fewer posts on kills like we were reading some years back. Mew marketing strategies for honey are appearing. In all, things look fairly good to me, which is another reason that a global approach will not work. You truly need to have all see a common danger or problem to unite any group, and it is just not there. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:38:53 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: Pesticide Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has any individual come across information concerning honeybee > populations developing resistance to any level against pesticides? > > Sub-lethal quantities are being introduced into the hive on a daily > basis. Right on! At the AHPA meeting, a bright young USDA scientist mentioned he was working on just this angle. allen Thinking that these conventions are the Horse's Mouth... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:10:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:54:37 -0500, Zachary Huang wrote: >Ted, > >Do you know if this is ever published? Zachary, It was Dr.M.V.Smith who gave me this information. I don't think it was published and I am not even sure if it was Dr. Smith who did the research. However I do believe it was done at Guelph so if it was not done by him it would have been one of his colleagues. Dr. Smith said the idea for the experiment came about when a foundation manufacturer started to produce drone foundation with the theory that it would make better comb for honey supers. I don't know enough about the history of beekeeping in North America to know when that was. I am sorry to be so hearsayish. I notice all the pros on this list back up their statements with footnotes, maybe a website or two and even italicized latin. It is said a wise father burns his report cards and all my notes from Guelph went up in smoke with the report cards. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:34:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: ABF convention 2002 Hello All, I enjoyed meeting Blane White, Jim Fischer, Lloyd Spear, Hamilton and the gal from the North Carolina beekeepers from Bee-L. Putting a face with a name on a Bee-L post helps. People always seem to look different than you picture. The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% Africanized. The black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits with intercasts with laying worker queens.In short they are showing all the Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman went into great detail about the labs observations. At the end of the talk I asked if she was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing capensis traits. her answer was "You are exactly right". Capensis were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr and she believes the capensis strain is alive and well in Arizona. To those Bee-L followers which followed Barry Seargeant and my posts on the subject last year you can see what a dire effect capensis would have on U.S. beekeeping. For those thinking the above is not true contact the bee lab, ask a fellow beekeeper which was at the ABF convention and attended the talk or purchase the tape of the lecture from the ABF office. Dr. Hoffman carefully avoided using the word capensis throughout her talk but openly talked about capensis when I questioned her. I thank Dr. Hoffman for her lecture and her observations. Finding capensis in Arizona is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may have been the one who make a reference to AFB having been identified in the late 1800's. At the time, I tried, unsuccessfully, to find a reference in The Hive and The Honeybee. Unfortunately, this otherwise excellent book is not always well indexed. For example, AFB is discussed at length on pages 1083-1096, but the only index reference to those pages is to the photos on page 1086! But I digress... On page 1090 there is a reference to a control procedure developed in 1907. That is the earliest reference I could quickly find. However, my memory is that the names EFB and AFB were applied based on the location where the bacteria was first discovered and identified, and that EFB was discovered and identified several years before AFB. In fact, if my memory serves, for a few years AFB was misidentified as EFB. Now, this could be within the pages of The Hive and the Honeybee, or in some other reference. I am certain I read it somewhere. I am less certain of the late 19th century reference, but it is not illogical if the 1907 reference to an AFB treatment is accurate. Seems to me that Miller's Forty Years Among the Bees had a reference to disease? I'll look that up at home. Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the 1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening the existence of beekeeping in the US? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Finding capensis in Arizona > is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this > is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again > thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did > not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Bob, Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have capensis genes? And, if traits, are those same traits common with AHB in South Africa, at the boundary of AHB with Capensis? I did not realize there was cross breeding. Only trying to establish the extent of the problem, since different races of bees can have, from time to time, traits of others, such as aggression, propolis buildup, etc.. But if we are talking genes, then it is an entirely different problem. Your post seems to affirm my belief that the mechanics of the hive and beekeeping are low on the list compared to the bee itself. Good bees make good beekeepers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Workers reared in drone cells? Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee, I see sometime ago on beesource.com that you or somebody else was to check the reproductive rate of varroa in combs of different sizes, is that experiement now completed? I compared the varroa reproduction rate between two hosts: workers reared in worker cells and workers reared in drone cells and strangely, mite reproduced much less on workers reared in drone cells! this is only true in Apis mellifera, in Apis cerana the difference is not significant. Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:56:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Dr. Hoffman carefully avoided using the word capensis throughout her talk >but openly talked about capensis when I questioned her. I thank Dr. >Hoffman for her lecture and her observations. Finding capensis in Arizona >is not good news but if capensis is in Arizona and our bee lab knows this >is true then they need to inform us as they work for our interests. I again >thank Dr. Hoffman for her honesty and have to wonder why Dr. Erickson did >not enlighten us to the labs capensis findings. Notice how she carefully avoided saying this. If it is true, then the proof would have been given. Since it wasn't, it is just opinion. mark _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:21:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> R.B. Quoting from Morse's book, Honey Bee Pests, Predators and Diseases, he states "Phillips, in his introduction to White's publication of 1906 on bacteria in the apiary, used the terms EFB and AFB to differentiate the two conditions but made it clear that the designation did not refer to the geographical distribution of the disease." Quoting from Morse and Hooper's Encyclopedia (American book) "E F Franklin joined the USDA in 1907 i/c the bee department. Dr G F White, under his direction, discovered the causes of EFB and AFB." Incidentally, Snodgrass, of Anatomy and Physiology fame, was also in that department. I can find no earlier reference. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:38:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Global Perspective required? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > Bill said: > > I appreciate the intent of a global perspective, but, as I like to say, > all beekeeping is local. I only have to note the difference of opinion > on AFB to know that it would be near impossible to get any global > consensus in beekeeping. > > Hi Bill and all, Over the years I have enjoyed reading posts from all over the world. One thing that always stands out , what worked in one area may not work as well someplace else. Part of the problem is the Genotype of the bees themselves.Behavior is hinged on the environment that the bee exists in at the moment. So what I could be seeing in my bees could be much different that what Bill is seeing in Maine. You don't have to go far from home to see differences in behavior and environment. I have a friend that lives just 70 miles north of me and we can be at different stages of spring build up every year. We just had a shift 2 years ago and my weather down here is better ( less rain) than what he gets up north. We still face the same problems, mites and AFB, ects. but timing is different for our treatments if any. One week of warmer clear air makes a great difference in spring build up here in Washington state. I keep my bees for wintering just 10 feet above sea level on Hood canal. That gives them a one week jump start ahead of bees that I would keep at home , just 9 miles away and up 500 feet. My main point is simple, beekeeping is done in your hive in its location. We all face the same general problems but we may have to solve them in a little different way, do to our environment. I look out the window and see snow falling. That will change a few of my plans for this next week for the bees at home. ( Breeder Queens) The bees down at the water will not see snow and it will be 10 F warmer. I did check all of my bees for stores last week and had to put some honey on a few of them. Not all Queens shut down in the winter. I have 4 with wall to wall bees. That is not normal in the Russians. We need to share information which may help others. We must stay on top of our bees in our hives. One should not jump into anything until they think it over very well and match it up to there environment and the bees they keep. Best Regards Roy Tahuya Wa. US > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 10:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have > capensis genes? > Only trying to establish the extent of the problem, since different > races of bees can have, from time to time, traits of others, such as > aggression, propolis buildup, etc.. But if we are talking genes, then it > is an entirely different problem. That is correct. AFAIK, the only evidence is by inference. Who knows, though maybe there is a paper wending its way through peer review. In the meantime, I have to say, having seen Lusbys bees and worked with them over three days, and that the bees they have are smaller, and smart, but not particularly vicious. On that latter characteristic, I would rate them in the middle of all the European types I have worked over the years and much milder than some Australian and New Zealand stock I have owned. They were mostly quiet on the comb and quite nice to work. They were instantly aware when we opened a cell to look for varroa and immediately one or several would examine the probe. We never found more than one varroa per cell and only found one in a sealed cell. We almost always found one in the occasional cells opened by the bees at the coloured-eye pupa stage, but the foundress was invariably non-reproductive. Dee claims that the thelytoky trait has been in the Lusby bees since long before the AHB furor and that their bees actually do raise new queens and that the Lusbys actually seek the thelytoky trait when breeding their bees, since the hives will raise a queen even when at the laying worker condition, and tolerate multiple queens. when requeening, she just smokes a virgin in and claims good success. Moreover she claims that she believes that the idea that there were no honey bees in America before the white man is as erroneous as the idea that Columbus was the first to discover America, but just as widely believed (My comparison, not Dee's). She cites cave paintings, and also the fact that a search of Spanish records has failed to confirm the long held belief that the Spanish brought the first honey bees to the New World. Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail, apparently turning up papers describing this trait being observed in European bees long before the current hubbub about cape bees. I am hoping that she will cite some here and that she and Barry will also get the BeeSource items indexed in a way that those of us who are not inclined to dig and hunt can follow the Lusby story in easy bites. Determining the actual origin of any bees in the world is a difficult job, since bees have been moved around the world by man time and again, and some of the basic assumptions about what stock belongs where is suspect. Bees are being moved around the world constantly, both overtly and surreptitiously, even into and out of supposedly quarantined areas. I notice that a well-known Australian queen breeder (I bought many queens and packages from him over the years) was recently convicted and fined for carrying nine queens into Australia in a pen. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: History of AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Lloyd writes: >Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the >1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening >the existence of beekeeping in the US? Some History of AFB From "A Short History of the Empire State Honey Producers' Association", by Roger Morse (1967) : AFB was rampant in New York State in the 1920's. In NYS, Mr. A. C. Gould must be credited with demonstrating how American Foulbrood can be controlled through a rigid inspection program. He served as state inspector from 1928 till 1965. When Mr. Gould assumed responsibility for bee disease inspection *in 1928* the records show that well over *six* per cent of the colonies in the state were infected with AFB. Gould advocated burning infected colonies, and after ten years, reduced the degree of infection to slightly more than one per cent. The Second World War resulted in a dramatic increase in the number of hobby beekeepers and in fewer inspectors being available to check colonies, As a result, the number of infected colonies increased and 1946 four per cent had AFB. By 1958 it was less than 1 per cent. Mr. Gould felt that it probably would be impossible to reduce the level to much less than one per cent without greatly increasing the number of inspectors. The spore stage may remain alive in old equipment for more than 30 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, July, 1875: "It was not until 1870 that I got nicely into movable frames and Italian bees. ... In the fall of '72 I bought a large stock of bees and material for hives... Everything went well until Feb., when that universal disease seated itself in my apiary and in spring I had 6 left and two hundred empty hives and nothing 'to pay the undertaker.'" ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Sept, 1875: "My treatment consist of two parts; first , the removal of all the brood and the extracting of all the honey of all of the affected hives. Perhaps this last might not be essential." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Apr 1876: "All seemed to go well for a time, but after a while some of his colonies did not seem to be doing well, and on examination he found their combs contained dead larvae which the bees did not clean out, so he exchanged combs with stronger swarms, thinking they would clean them up and make it all right. ... some of our best apiarians visited him and pronounced his trouble to be foul brood. ... Mr. Krushke adopted the heroic treatment and destroyed his bees, melted his combs into wax and piled up the hives and frames for sale or future use." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In Gleanings, Nov 1876, I found the first mention of the use of salicylic acid for foul brood. "The discoverer of the remedy cured 25 badly affected stocks, and other beekeepers have cure 30 and 40 without a single failure." The recipe is "Put 50 gramms of the best crystallized acid into a bottle with eight times the weight of good spirits of wine... mix with water in the proportion of one drop of the spirits of wine and acid to one gramm of water. ... an affected stock should be sprinkled ... it will be found that, thought the young brood will not have been in the least injured, yet the virus of the disease will have been efficiently destroyed. [they] used the salicylic acid as a preventative against foul brood, having mixed it with the sirup." ---------------------------------------------------------------- In "The Hive and the Honeybee", Dadant, 1913: Foul-brood 786. There are other important diseases, but all are nothing, when compared to the dreaded contagious malady, already known thousands of years ago* and commonly call foul-brood because it shows its effects mainly by the dying of the brood. * As Aristotle (History of Animals, Book IX, Chap. 40) speaks of a disease which is accompanied by a disgusting smell of the hive, there is reason to believe that foul-brood was common more than two thousand years ago. In the 1913 book many *cures* are described, including honey mixed with salicylic acid, salicylic fumigants, carbolic acid, shaking method, etc. E. R. Root was quoted: "We did not get very satisfactory results by the use of drugs, when foul-brood visited our apiary some years ago. We did find, however, that they invariably held the disease in check; but as soon as their use was discontinued, the disease broke out again." ---------------------------------------------------------------- PS. I have access to Gleanings from Issue #1 in 1873 to the present. Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 14:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > Even if early 1900's is a better reference date, why did it take until the > 1940's for American bees to become so infected that AFB was threatening the > existence of beekeeping in the US? After reading through Wedmore, Philips, and others, during the thirties and forties is when cell size was increased larger and became common place. Just an interesting note. Comments? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:35:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of > the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% > Africanized. Interesting. I am starting to wonder what 'Africanized' means. I got to wondering about Dee's info at Barry's site since I mentioned it recently. I see that it has evolved considerably and is worth a read. As a teaser, I came across the below snippets at http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/index.htm and more specifically http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/viciousbee.htm I recommend setting aside a few hours to look through the site. --- here are some snippets --- Bee Culture Research Investigations, Southern States Bee Culture Research Lab Baton Rouge, La. Period: April 1 - Jun 30, 1960 Quarterly Progress Report labeled Administratively Confidential. ...Two shipments of semen were received from Kerr during the quarter. The first was especially unsatisfactory, causing death of all queens. The second has just been used and the queens have just started laying so that it will be some time before success or failure is known. If these are successful, it will mean that we now have bees which are 87.5 per cent adonsonii... and Entomology Research Branch, Apiculture research Branch, Southern States Bee Culture research Lab Baton Rouge, La. Period: Jan 1 - Mar 31, 1962 ...The Apis mellifera adonsonii. Stock that was lost during the late spring because of neglect has been re-imported with two successful shipments of semen from Dr Kerr, in Brazil. This stock will be available for tests by the various interested people by the end of the summer. Stock of over 90% adonsonii is now available and with a little inbreeding this will be taken to over 95%. allen My diary (including several days with the 'Killer Bees' of Southern Arizona http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ See vicious 'Africanized' bees worked by daring beekeepers at http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 21:43:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bill and All, Bill wrote; Are we talking "traits" that were observed or do the bees actually have capensis genes? My understanding is capensis genes And, if traits, are those same traits common with AHB in South Africa, at the boundary of AHB with Capensis? I did not realize there was cross breeding. DuPraw (1965) ,according to Ruttner (1975), was unable to delimit = adansonii from capensis on the basis of wing charactors. I know DNA = testing has been used for years in Arizona but the USDA has painted the = results with a broad brush and will only say bees are Africanized or = not. In my opinion if they are using the cubital index of wing venation = they are able to tell Africanization but not the difference between a = scut and capensis. Herein lies the problem in my opinion with cubital = index. I am going way beyond my area of expertise in the above .and = stand to be corrected. The easiest way to determine capensis is by simply examining workers. = Capensis is distinctly different from ALL other races of honey bees = because of the large numbers of ovarioles in the ovaries and the well = developed spermatheca. Although yet unproven many researchers believe = capensis workers have stronger pheromones than a European queen and can = cause European workers to supercede their own queen. There is a strong = possibility the capensis pheromone theory issue has already been proven = by now Anderson (1961) after examination of thousands of capensis laying = workers never found one worker with spermatoza yet when queenless the = capensis workers can soon lay eggs without fertilization which develop = into females and queens can be raised from the eggs. Mackenson (1943) = said the same phenomenon occurs in all races but only with a low = frequency. As a lifelong beekeeper I would replace the words *low = frequency* with very very rare . I do not believe I have ever seen a = case of bees of mine with laying workers raising a queen. Laying workers are a common sight in a bee operation. 10% and up of = queens in a commercial operation go queenless during heavy honey flow = and the result if not caught in time is laying workers. Scattered Drone = cells in worker pattern is all I ever see. Bill wrote: Your post seems to affirm my belief that the mechanics of the hive and beekeeping are low on the list compared to the bee itself. Good bees make good beekeepers. You are exactly right Bill ! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I have no direct experience with capensis. The information I present = comes from books, articles, and lectures and from researchers. Hopefully = others will comment . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: There are some rather lofty claims being made for downsizing to a smaller bee by people who have not yet even begun downsizing to the 4.9er bee. Maybe they are true; maybe they aren’t always. From a personal point of view, I think it’s worth looking into. >Microbes and mites, assisted by us, however inadvertently, or independently, WILL evolve to meet the new challenge they face, let alone the mutation and variation of the super stock itself in due time. Simply put, the struggle on both ends (beekeepers' and mites') is never-ending;... >Imagine how hard we will fight if we have to fight for the survival of our own species. So will the microbes and mites. Humdinger gave a couple of very good opinions (in my opinion!) Didn’t AFB become much more widespread with the advent of the large commercial beekeeping operations? We talk about getting back to “natural” ways of beekeeping. But is it “natural” to keep hundreds or even tens of hives in close proximity to one another? It seems to me that we have simply provided a very unique dining experience to a predator (whether it is the disease organism Paenibacillus larvae or Varroa destructor) in the host/predator relationship. Maybe by downsizing bees, we have actually tricked the predator for awhile. But, how long will it take before the predator adapts to its new host? When it does won’t it simply end up right back at the smorgasbord? Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 07:29:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. In particular, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES WHEN REPLYING. Contributions including quotes that are not absolutely necessary to understanding will usually be rejected WITHOUT NOTICE. FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: DaveHamilton Subject: Re: History of AFB and EFB In-Reply-To: <200201261646.g0QGkqi17764@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Foul brood has been around a long time. In a 1568 book Nichel Jacob wrote of "foule brut". His treatment method was to cut out all the honey and comb, then keep the bees locked up for 3 days starve all the honey out of their coups. He then took a new hive and put it on the bottom of the stand setting his sick bees on top. He fed them good honey and said this always worked best when the "cherries were in bloom". Remember this was in 1568 before we had hives like today. It is interesting to note also that in Moses Quimby's book of 1853 gave the same procedure, almost 300 years later. At the time, AFB, EFB and sac brood were all lumped together into one disease. My point being that this bacteria has been around a long time so why haven't we solved the problem? I think you can find the answer for this is "beekeepers fears". In the early 1900's when people would write about a solutions to cure foul brood, they were lambasted in the journals by others who insisted that fire was the only answer. Inspectors also took this opinion as there was fear of the disease moving from farm to farm. Remember the time, every small farm had hives. This thinking stifled research. Think of this, in the November 1905 Gleanings magazine a FW Alexander wrote an article to report that he found some bees were better housekeepers than others and related this to cleaning up foul brood. He advocated requeening or simply caging the queen to interrupt brood rearing and give the hive time to be cleaned up. That was 100 years ago. I think all we have done with years of prophylactic terramycin treatment is hide the problem, its endemic to our bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:01:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Cave paintings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >she claims that she believes that the idea that there were no honey >bees in America before the white man is erroneous ... She cites cave >paintings, and also the fact that a search of Spanish records has >failed to confirm the long held belief that the Spanish brought the >first honey bees to the New World. > >Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original >American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky >trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail > >Dee claims that the thelytoky trait has been in the Lusby bees since >long before the AHB furor and that their bees actually do raise new >queens and that the Lusbys actually seek the thelytoky trait when >breeding their bees, since the hives will raise a queen even when at >the laying worker condition, and tolerate multiple queens. when >requeening, she just smokes a virgin in and claims good success. That ain't all they've been smoking. Based on *cave paintings* they have determined that there were honey bees here before the white man, that the workers of those bees could raise queens like the Cape bee, and they have descendents of these same bees in their outfit. Instead of the other explanation: the bees came from Mexico in the past ten years. Remember Occam's Razor? >Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% Africanized. The >black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits >with intercasts with laying worker queens. In short they are showing >all the Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman >went into great detail about the labs observations. At the end of >the talk I asked if she was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing >capensis traits. Her answer was "You are exactly right". Capensis >were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr and she believes the capensis >strain is alive and well in Arizona. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: beehive plans Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk Webster and I would like to build a "museum" yard. It would consist of various styles of beehives from the past and present. If anyone has such plans or drawings, dates/explanations/inventors/comments/etc, please send to the above address. Thanks, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:19:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That ain't all they've been smoking. Based on *cave paintings* they > have determined that there were honey bees here before the white man, > that the workers of those bees could raise queens like the Cape bee, > and they have descendents of these same bees in their outfit. > Instead of the other explanation: the bees came from Mexico in the past ten > years. Well. I have no evidence that they have been smoking anything except their bees. I found them sober and sincere and able to pull out references instantly on any topic. Be that as it may -- or may not, perhaps you failed to notice that your reply in no serious way addresses all the quotes you included with your post, so I am hoping you will deal with these issues one by one, and with documentation in a detailed and scientific manner, as you usually do. We will all benefit by a rational and reasoned rebuttal, now that we have been entertained by irony. There are many interesting things that are claimed by Lusbys, and one is that the thelytoky characteristic was there (and assumed by them to be normal) before the 'AHB' front went through and that Dee has videotape and other documentation in which she demonstrated this to USDA people before they were fully aware of thelyoky in Arizona bees, and had contracts with them on this topic to boot. Moreover some element of the stock they maintain, in addition to thelytoky, apparently demonstrates inexplicable morphometrics and unique veination, to this day. I understand that the cape bee is causing havoc with scutellata in South Africa, but the Lusbys seek this characteristic and find it works for them. Is this not odd? There is much to this whole matter that does not fit into a nice neat package or submit to neat classification. > Remember Occam's Razor? Yes, I'm glad you brought that up. This postulate is stated in many ways, but fundamentally requires that we give preference to whichever explanation that is the simplest but that also FITS ALL THE FACTS. Do we know all the facts? The Truth is Out There... allen The hand, having written, moved on... It was mentioned to me that some visitors to http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ did not immediately see the Lusby visit pictures. Time passes and now it is necessary to click back several pages in the diary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas While it is true that "beekeeping" has been carried out in the Americas for thousands of years, these were not the honey bee that we use, but bees from an entirely different genus (Melipona, Trigona). De Landa (1566) describes the stingless bees cultivated by the Maya and the wax they produce. Redfield and Villa Rojas (1934) describe bee-keeping and candlemaking in more detail. There is little doubt that candles provided a major source of lighting in pre-Columbian times. de Landa, Diego. Yucatan: Before and After Conquest. Dover Publications, Inc., 1978 (reprint and translation of 1566). Journal Ciencia y Desarrollo (CONACYT) Num. 69 (julio, agosto 1986), Autor: J.M. Labougle, J.A.Zozaya. -------------------------------- The History of the Beekeeping in Mexico In the new world the different species known as Apis was non-existent which is why the established cultures used another group of bees: The Meliponi or bees without sting. From this the mesamerican cultures were able to cultivate many varieties from the genus Trigona and Melipona -- one especially important a species called Melipona Beecheii Bennett, that is still in use in Yucatan and which in Mayan is called Xuna'an-Kab, Kolel'Kab o Po'ol-Kab. The Trajectory of the Meliponi culture in Yucatan is representative in the rest of the mesamerican area, where reached a high degree of complexity. It is thought that in the beginning the Mayan carried out the exploitation of the Meliponi by stealing honey from wild colonies. Later, they chopped down the trunks where the broodnests were located and relocated them under the eaves of their house and took care of them until the time of harvest. The protection of the natural honey nest taught the Meliponi beekeeper about the need for bee forge resources and their vulnerability to natural factors, such as rain and wind. In this way they learnt to protect their hives inside of huts which consisted of the functional equivalent of a modern apiary and put the trunks in a specially designed frame. This method was as efficient as the method with A. mellifera in Europe during the XVI, XVII and XVIII centuries, specially in terms of production and reproduction of the colonies, mechanisms to reduce swarming, etc. In the General Natural History of the Indies, described by Fernandez de Oviedo, the beekeeping activity and the intense care of the bees the Mayan had, during colonial days, it is evident as well, that the Meliponi beekeeping was more extensive in that time than a beekeeper in any European country. Honey was the principal resource used by the Mayans for the manufacture of "balche", a drink which included honey, balche cuttings (lonchocarpus longistylus pittier) and water. This beverage was used in religious festivities. The oldest document on beekeeping in the Peninsula is the Troano codice, which mentions the religious festivities of beekeepers would celebrate festivities principally to the God Ah-Muzencab to assure a good nectar flow. The honey, aside from being tribute that the Mayan peasants pay to the "halachuinics", was the objet of intense commerce carried out from Tabasco by sea to Honduras (Ula) and Nicaragua as well as the Mexican empire. In exchange for the honey and wax, the Mayans probably received cacao seeds and precious stones. With the arrival of the Spanish in America, could be thought that the common European bee (A.mellifera) was also introduced nevertheless, the metropolis always consider the sale of honey and wax, as a royal and exclusive monopoly of Spain. But due to the religious activities, there was a strong necessity to count on a larger wax supply. Impossible to cover from Spain. For this reason, the Spanish demanded to the cast of "halch-uinics" who occupied the Yucatan Peninsula to give them wax as a tribute. With the introduction of the sugar cane and the development of large sugar cane plantations in the New Spain Central Region, honey became a product of secondary importance. The necessity of using it as a sweetener was reduced and it was only used to make "balche". The extensions of the Meliponi culture in Yucatan, can be measured by the first tribute list that Spanish demanded in 1549: Out of 173 towns in Yucatan, only 5.8% did not pay with honey and wax. In total the list covered 2, 438 arrobas (approximately 29,300 kgs.) of wax and 276 arrobas (around 3,300 kgs.) of honey, which in terms of the existing population in the state of Yucatan, was equivalent to 1 arroba (12 kgs.) of wax for each twenty persons and 1 arroba of honey per each 295 persons. The intensity of the activity can be appreciated if you considered that one apiary hut usually counted on between 100 and 200 hive-logs. The wax forage by the Spanish was traded through the ports of Sisal in Yucatan and Campeche and from the port of Campeche to Veracruz and others from the Spanish empire. For this reason, to the M. Beecheii wax, which actually is a serum (a mixture of wax and propolis) it was known as Campeche wax. In general, the tributary economic structure and the explotation system of the Meliponi beekeeping was maintained during the entire colonization, that is why the Spanish never introduced the common European bee to the Maya regions, specially the Peninsula of Yucatan. The European Bee in Mexico The introduction of the European bee in Mexico was not direct. The evidence indicates that the raised of the European bees known as A. mellifera, were introduced first in Florida towards the end of the XVII century when this Peninsula was a Spanish possession, for the purpose of finding some economic benefit, because the economic contribution of that place to the Empire was minimum or non-existent. The initial experiments with bees in Florida was unsuccessful; in the middle of the XVIII century on the Peninsula could only be found wild population of common bees. Nevertheless in 1764 colonies of A. mellifera from Florida were taken to Cuba. This activity was of great importance and it had a fast dispersion on the island. It is very likely that this was when the European bee A. mellifera was introduced to New Spain from Cuba, but there is not a well known document that could give the date of its incorporation. F.J. Clavijero in his document of the History of Mexico, writes about the presence of this bee in the country, and some indirect evidences suggest that this introduction took place by the end of the 1760's or at the beginning of the 1770's and only on the central region. The arrival of the European bee in Mexico, did not imply its introduction to Yucatan, as a matter of fact in 1821, this kind of bee was not known in the region, because the wax commercialized between this Peninsula and the rest of the country, continued being the "Campeche wax" or the propolis cerum.The principal reason for this was probably resistance from the Meliponi culture beekeepers to work with stinging bees, besides there was not an economic need, because Meliponi beekeeping was very developed and totally covered the wax and honey demand. On the other hand, the Spanish concentrated their efforts on the development of henequen plantations and on the suppression of many serious social conflicts caused by the land concentration in land-grounds, dedicated to henequen production. http://netcall.com.mx/abejas/en/history.htm -------------------------------- Over 25,000 species of bees have been identified in the world, with perhaps as many as 40,000 species yet to be identified. In the continental United States scientists have found approximately 3,500 species of bees. The desert regions of northern Mexico and southern Arizona have the richest diversity of bees found anywhere in the world. Although there is no exact count, a bee scientist at the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center says there are between 1,000 and 1,200 species of bees within 100 miles of Tucson! You may wonder how this can be true. It turns out that not all bees are social bees that live in large families like bumble bees and honey bees. Most are less well-known bees called solitary bees, for example carpenter bees, leafcutter bees, alkali bees, digger bees or sweat bees. Female solitary bees build their own nests and provide food for only their own offspring. All bees collect pollen and nectar, and many of the solitary species are essential because they pollinate plants ignored by honey bees. What we call honey bees are represented by eight to 10 species in the genus Apis, a name from which comes the word for beekeeping (apiculture) and the word for a bee yard (apiary). The species of honey bee commonly found today in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the Americas is Apis mellifera, which means honey carrier. This name is not technically correct as the bees carry nectar from flowers which they then use to produce honey back in the hive. Only when the bees are moving to a new nest (swarming) do they carry honey. There are 24 races of Apis mellifera. The races have different physical and behavioral characteristics such as body color, wing length, and susceptibility to disease. But, since they are all of the same species, bees from one race can mate with bees from another race, creating even more variation within the honey bee universe. Caucasian bees ( A. mellifera caucasica) are known to be extremely docile, whereas the black or German bees ( A. mellifera mellifera) are known to overwinter well in severe climates. The African group of bees includes not only the largest number of geographic races (12), but also some of the best known, such as the notorious A. mellifera scutellata. It was a few queens of this highly defensive race that were brought into Brazil in 1957 and started the bees we now know as "Africanized honey bees." The true honey bee was not native to the Americas. Prior to Columbus, people in Central and South America collected honey from bees known as "stingless bees." Although stingless bees do actually lack a stinger, they are not completely defenseless. They can inflict painful bites with their mandibles. They also do not produce honey in the same quantity as A. mellifera. http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf1.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:04:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: ABF convention 2002 In-Reply-To: <200201261804.g0QI4fi21109@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Allen Dick wrote: Dee believes that the bees they manage have some of the original American bee stock in them and that this is where the thelytoky trait originates. She has also studied the matter in detail, apparently turning up papers describing this trait being observed in European bees long before the current hubbub about cape bees. I am hoping that she will cite some here Reply: Before I start my reply to the above here I'd like to say that I have been in politics for many years in Arizona. To my knowledge no full state physical survey has been accomplished of managed beekeepers colonies for race/strain determination, nor has a full state field determination been accomplished either of the feral. Therefore to state that the whole state of Arizona is Africanized in supposition and not actual fact. Further, Technically under the law and by USDA definition only one parasitic mite found in a colony defines infestation, whether or not more are present. For Africanization the definition is the same. ONly one mating out of several for a queen determined by the USDA (and note I say determined by the USDA) to be African is Africanization. To my understanding from many legislative hearings and agricultural hearings, anything found to be different from stocks kept by the USDA as normal or routine in the USA is grounds for determining africanization. To my knowledge no full scale prior field testing of stocks both managed and feral was accomplished prior to *Africanization* in the USA.Therefore anything found to be differnet that cannot be identified may be currently wrongfully identified. Now having said this, Allen asked for references on Thelytoky for its scope. Perhaps it is about time to share this information that we have used in our beekeeping that the USDA has had access to for so long in light of recent events and politics. Hard to know where to begin as there is so much information to be had if one knows where to look. First of all Thelytoky was first found in Punic and Tunisian bees by Hewitt. Thelytoky has also been documented in Syrian and Cyprian bees. It has also been documented in both golden and three-banded Italian and Caucasian bees.My mind is also saying carnica bees, but I cannot put my finger on paperwork for that right now in my mess of paper right now so I will list what I hve managed to pull out so far for those of you that have access to libraries to go get and read and/or maybe use in research you may be doing. IMPOV it is not a hard trait to breed for and is necessary and beneficial on a biological beekeeping field mangement program, at least here Arizona,(we by the way are in a temperate zone) for part of our success in control of mites, secondary diseases, and winter carryover if you count breeding as 1/3 of the equation, diet `1/3 of the equation, and environment the final 1/3. References as follows: first and most important- the first discoverer: John Hewitt of Sheffield England: Journal of Horticulture for 1892, August 11, page 134 Anderson, John,(Scotland) American Bee Journal, Vol 58 June 1918, pg 192. Laying Workers Which Produce Female Offspring. Fyg,W.(Switzerland) The Bee World, March 1950, pg 17-19, Can Workers and Queens of the Honeybee be Raised from Unfertilized Eggs? Starr, Christopher K. (Athens GA,USA) Sociobiology Vol 13 No 3, 1987, pgs 287-293, Queen or Worker, Which is the Original Honey Bee? Taber, Steve, (USA) American Bee Journal, August 1989 pg 465-467, Laying Workers (references prior work in USDA with Poole and Makensen and Tucker and Us(Lusby)). Anderson, R.H. 1963. J Apic Res 2:85-92, The laying worker in the Cape bee, apis mellifera capensis. Butler, C.G. 1957 The control of Ovary Development in Worker Honeybees (Apis mellifera). Experientia 13: 256-257 Butler, C.G. and E.M. Fairey 1963. The role of the queen in preventing oogenesis in worker honeybees. J. Apic. Res 2: 14-18 DeGroot, A.P. and S. Voogd 1954. On the ovary development in queenless worker bees (Apis mellifera L.) Experientia 10: 384-385 Jack, R.W. 1917 Parthenogenesis amongst the workers of the Cape bee. Mr G.W. Onions experiments. Trans. Entomol. Soc. London 64: 396-403 Jay, S.C. 1970. The effects of various combinations of immature queen and worker bees on the ovary development of worker honey bees in colonies. Can J. Zool. 48: 169-173 Kropacova, S and H. Haslbachava 1970. The development of ovaries in worker honeybees in queenright colonies before and after swarming. J. Apic Res 9:65-70 Kropacova, S. and H. Haslbachava 1971. The influence of queenlessness and unsealed brood on the development of ovaries in worker honeybees J. Apic Res 10: 57-61 Mackensen, Otto 1943 (IMPORTANT ON METHODOLOGY AND HOW TO-Dee here for use with virgins and cells in field) The occurrence of parthenogenetic females in some strains of honey bees. J. Econ. Entomol. 36: 465-467 Moritz, R.F. A. 1984. Equilibrium of thelytokous and arrhenotokous parthenogenesis in populatoins of the honeybee (Apis mellifera) IN Advances in Invertebrate Reproduction, W. Engels, Editor. Elsevier, Amersterdam, New York, Oxford, pg 615 Onions, G. W. 1912. South African fertile worker bees. Agric J. Union of South Africa 7: 4446 Perepelova, L 1929 Laying workers, the ovipositing of the queens, and swarming. Bee World 10: 69-71 Ruttner, F. 1976 The Cape bee - A biological curiosity? In African Bees: Taxonomy, Biology, and Economic Use. D.J.C. Fletcher, Editor, Proceedings of the Apimondia Interntl Sym. Pretoria, S. Africa. Unk. 1977 The problem of the Cape bee (Apis mellifera Capensis Escholtz): Parthenogenesis - size of population - evolution. Apidologie 8: 281-294 Suomalainen, E. 1950Parthenogenesis in animals. Advances in Genetics 3: 193-253 Velthuis, H.H.W. 1970. Ovarian development in Apis mellifera worker bees. Entomol. Exp. and Appl. 13: 377-394 Verma, S. and F. Ruttner 1983. Cytological analysis of the Thelytokous partenogenesis in the Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis Escholtz). apidologie 14: 41-57 Ruttner, F. 1976, Genetics, Selection and Reproduction of the Honey Bee, Symposium on Bee Biology, Moscow Aug 1976, Apimondia Publishing House, Bucharest, pg 120 Male and Female parthenogenesis of the honeybee. Woyke, J (Warsaw) 1961-1966, Paid for by USA Project: E21-ENT-7 Grant # FG-PO-124-61 funding, The development Maturation and Production of Drones and Natural mating of Virgin and Drone Honeybees. 108 pages long. Woyke, J (Warsaw)1966- 1971, paid by USA Project: E21-ENT-15,Grant # FG-PO-196 funding, Biology of Reproduction as a Basis for Production of new varieties of honeybees. 154 pages long. Woyke, J. (warsaw) 1978-1985, paid by USA project: Pl-ARS-85 grant # FG-Po-365, Genetic Basis of Reproduction in the Honey Bee. 255 pages long. For Ed and my paper in conjunction with Dr Hoffman and Dr Erickson in May 1991 with work done in the 1980s under USDA western Region contract I work and Alband Calif signed,prior to Africanization declared in Arizona in the mid-1990s, please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm I will close with saying, last night Ed and I were called by Bill Gafford Vice President of the Alabama State Beekeepers Association with whom we have had a long standing relationship as Lusby Family roots go back to New Site, Alabama in the mid 1800s.We have been invited to speak at their upcoming 105th anniversary meeting on Sept 21-22, 2002 in Greenville, Alabama, just like we did in 1997 at their 100th anniversary meeting. Subject Matter will be by me: 4.9mm regresson, biological beekeeping/breeding from the field side and yes, MAJOR emphasis on Thelytoky with private copies of video I have from the 1980s I took showing actual thelytoky laying workers and how they behave. For more informaton call Bill Gafford on attending at: 1-334-382-0117. It's sure to be another great Alabama meeting. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:32:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: afb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been following the trail of discussion of afb on this site and = cannot believe where it is going. I thought most of the correspondents = were capable and reasoning people. \ AFB is a spore forming bacillus. \spores can stay dormant in excess of 30 years \one scale has over 4000000 spores in it \it takes approx 100000 spores to start an infection \afb is spread by bee keeping practices AND ROBBING infected honey. = Think of your neighbouring beekeepers, your costing them a fortune. \spores are not killed with antibiotics \hives with no resistance will show physical symptoms of AFB \if you keep AFB infected hives you are giving it to your neighbour and = spreading it through you outfit and yes it will be endemic at this stage = ( just like small pox, plague,cholera,typhoid,measles,ect ect were) and = yes you will lose a lot of gear,it will COST YOU a lot of time and MONEY = to get it under control. \ it can be bought under control when you have a thorough understanding = of its biology \ subclinical infections ie those that dont show physical symptoms can = be detected with a very simple culture test and those hives can be = managed as a separate unit ( I do this myself) \ help yourselves, remove susceptible strains of bees to AFB, burn them = and their frames ( the ultimate in selection, natural selection means = AFB will kill them, AFB survival mechanisms mean it will spread when = that hive is robbed, restocked or the gear used on other hives ) \ resistant bees wont show afb and wont get burnt. \ treat your box's lids bottom boards to kill the spores (dip in = paraffin wax @ 160 degrees Celsius for 15 minuets or irradiate ) This gives the next lot of bees a clean start. \ dont play with AFB it will always come back and bite you.=20 Shaun Cranfield and yes I am from New Zealand slcranfield@xtra.co.nz=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Pollen I live in the Middle Georgia area and my bees have already started to bring in a good bit of pollen. The majority of it is bright yellow to green/yellow but today I noticed they were bringing in a very bright red pollen (fire engine red). Does anyone in the group know where this might be coming from? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:17:48 -0600 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200201280010.g0S0AYi00568@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:02:44 -0500, Tim Smith wrote: >Does anyone in the group know where this might >be coming from? Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish tubular flower, member of the mint family. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper Carencro LA 1000+ Hives _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:37:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Cornick wrote: > 200 stings in the front of my sweatshirt and I stopped counting, bees hanging > so thick off my veil they fell off in clumps, > Find anything in that. Boy, does that sound like Tucson area bees!! -and people wondered why we didn't requeen more colonies!! - John Edwards, now in Vancouver, WA, and loving it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:29:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Pollen Comments: To: Charles Harper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles Harper" > Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish tubular flower, > member of the mint family. I concur, though I would describe it as red-orange pollen. You can see photos of henbit at http://pollinator.com/gallery/February/february_flowers.htm Maple pollen is gray-green-faint yellow. Maples are just starting to open. It's been dry here so there's not as much mustard as usual (farmers are cutting the fields early). mustard pollen is pale yellow. I saw japanese honeysuckle open in a yard this afternoon, and there have been dandelions all winter this year. Camelias are nearly done. My home bees worked the daylights out of my camelia. Another beekeeper reports seeing alder in bloom as well. A lot of pollen is coming into the hives, and a little nectar shakes out too. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:04:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any suggestions on planning and procedures now to prevent swarms. Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:08:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Boy, does that sound like Tucson area bees!! -and people wondered why we didn't > requeen more colonies!! Maybe I was there on a good day, but I imagine you saw the pictures at http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick and I wasn't wearing a veil when taking some of them -- or wearing gloves while inspecting them. What do you think explains the wide discrepancy in reports and experience? AFAIK, at least some of the bees we were handling were from Tucson city swarms. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:55:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Rodney Farrar" The subject gets beat to death every year, so a search of the Bee list archives could garner a lot of info: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Two basic principles: 1. A queen, in her first year, is unlikely to swarm, unless the brood chamber gets crowded. 2. A second-year queen is programed to swarm, and you most likely will not stop her, only delay her, by swarm control techniques. Many times a delayed old queen will swarm later, out of season, and the swarm has little chance of survival, plus the original colony has a hard time as well, trying to get a queen mated when it's not the normal season. I figure the bees want to reproduce, so why fight it? I help them reproduce, by making nucs, trying to be a few days ahead of their schedule. They they are satisfied, having reproduced, and settle back down to work. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:25:44 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: acetone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I had a bucket of cappings that were haphazardly rinsed before being sealed. Upon opening, after some time, I found that the wax cappings had a very strong odor of acetone which overpowered that of ethanol. Is this 'acetone production' an unusual occurrence? John Fiji Islands ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 05:04:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: Aggressive bees In-Reply-To: <200201280500.g0S502i10799@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I waited to see if someone will drop something like this (since there is beekeepers from New Zealand on the List): Two years ago NATO had lunched air strike on Yugoslavia, which is my the neighbouring country. In the same time, for approximately 2 weeks, large part of my country (Macedonia) were under big (I don't know how big) ozone hole. This (if not first) was very rare occasion: I remember that for 15 minutes walking without hat under the sun, I started to fill headache. In about same time - for the sake of my neighbours, I couldn't work my bees because the bees were unbelievable aggressive. The supers were empty but all the bee yard was smelling like the best honey flow is in progress - the mountain meadow plants were in full blooming. The reason was not local as I was inclined to think at that same time, because after that (in autumn), many beekeepers from all over the country had reported the same aggressive behaviour in their bees and empty supers, but... I am only one who speculate that reason was in extra UV radiation - all others were convinced that reason was NATO strike (low flight of helicopters, radiation from bombs and missiles, etc. etc.) (...in the same season beekeepers from Yugoslavia reported that they had one of their best honey years!) Anyone who had find any correlation/indication between aggressiveness of bees and ozone holes (extra UV radiation)? ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing that I do is to take my best second year queens and make nucs out of them. Kent Stienburg Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of > the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% > Africanized. > The black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing capensis traits > with intercasts with laying worker queens.In short they are showing all the > Capensis traits of taking over European hives. Dr. Hoffman went into great > detail about the labs observations. At the end of the talk I asked if she > was saying the AHB in Arizona are showing capensis traits. her answer > was "You are exactly right". Capensis were brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr > and she believes the capensis strain is alive and well in Arizona. I guess the most obvious questions that this report raises are these: 1.) IF the bees in Arizona are Africanized (meaning AFAIK that at least one of the hives in each yard contain at least one bee that can be traced back to recent African origin), and IF these bees migrated all the way up from Brazil over a period of a half century or so, then why, has no one else noticed this trait? These bees have been examined in great detail and at great expense by an impressive list of US and non-US scientists over that time. 2.) One the other hand, was this characteristic diseminated with queens bred by the USDA and distributed in the USA? 3.) Could this thelytoky be indigenous to Arizona? It was first brought to USDA attention by Arizona beekeepers before anyone else was aware of it, and before the AHB was known to hit Arizona -- if I have my facts straight. Maybe Dee will fill in the time line and documentation. 4.) Why has the USDA witheld this info this long? (Assuming it did). 5.) If the Arizona origin is not plausible, then could this thelytoky be the result of an unreported separate introduction of bees into the Southern US or Mexico by a beekeeper a decade or more ago? 6.) Could this newly observed thelytoky effect simply be the concentration and expression of an existing characteristic of all honey bees caused by the environment, or by the selection by beekeepers, in a specific region. My understanding is that the fire ant shifted gears some years ago to mutate into the version that currently has proven to be a scourge. The main differernce between the new Super Ant and the old version is that the current fire ant now tolerates multiple queens. Could this not be a somewhat similar adaption? 6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: New research program at Cornell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following was posted to another list: Fellow Beekeepers, Things are looking up! Recommended reading: ITHACA, N.Y. -- Cornell University will be the home for a new Honeybee Genetics and Integrated Pest Management Center that will study the continuing threat from deadly parasitic mites and Africanized honeybees. The center is funded by a $1.8 million grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Initiative for Future Agriculture and Food Systems. The grant will establish the largest university-based, honeybee research and extension infrastructure in the country. The new center will focus on developing solutions to the two major threats to honeybees, insects that are responsible for agricultural pollination valued in the billions of dollars. The director is Nicholas W. Calderone, Cornell assistant professor of entomology, assisted by project scientists Walter S. Sheppard of Washington State University in Pullman and Jeff Pettis of the USDA-Agricultural Research Service, Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville, Md. Other supporters of the program include the USDA Sustainable Research and Agricultural Education program, the USDA Northeast Integrated Pest Management program, the New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets, and the Organic Farming and Research Foundation. Most of the pollination for more than 90 commercial crops grown throughout the United States is provided byApis mellifera , the honeybee. The value from the pollination to agricultural output in the country is estimated at $14.6 billion annually. Growers rent about 1.5 million colonies each year to pollinate crops. The introduction of the parasitic bee mite Varroa destructor in 1987 and the invasion of the Africanized honeybee in 1990 have threatened honeybee colonies. "Parasitic mites are currently managed with pesticides, but as with other agricultural pests, the mite population has developed resistance to these pesticides and beekeepers will soon be without effective treatments," says Calderone. He notes that the extremely defensive Africanized honeybee could be even more devastating. This honeybee is well established in the southwestern United States and is spreading northward into the Central Valley area of California and into the southeastern United States, says Calderone. These are the principal queen and package-bee producing areas that supply beekeepers with new stock to replace losses due to parasitic mites. "The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in these areas will result in restrictions on the shipment of bees from these areas. This, in turn, will severely limit the ability of beekeepers to restock their operations," he says. Migratory pollination, which provides the majority of pollination services, might be particularly hard hit because migratory bee operators typically spend the winter in the South and travel throughout the United States to pollinate crops during the spring and summer. The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in the southern states will result in restrictions on the movement of migratory operations throughout the country, Calderone says. In its evaluation of methods for controlling parasitic mites, the new center will emphasize the development of mite-resistant stocks of honeybees. The breeding program will be the first to use honeybees to integrate traditional animal-breeding methods with modern molecular technologies. Calderone says there will be an emphasis on identification and the use of molecular markers for mite resistance and other desirable traits. "Marker-facilitated selection offers the first real opportunity to transform beekeeping from an industry that has become dependent on a growing number of expensive pesticides and antibiotics into one that is free of chemical inputs and that is economically viable in today's competitive global marketplace," says Calderone. Because the breeding populations will be maintained using closed- mating technology, they will be kept free of Africanized honeybee genes, thereby providing an unadulterated source for commercial queen and package producers. The grant also provides funds to develop a regional extension program in apiculture and to coordinate extension activities with institutions in other regions. The Cornell University Master Beekeeper Program, which Calderone established in 1998, will serve as the centerpiece for the expanded extension program. ______________ Lloyd Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:44:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. Can anyone help me. I live in west Texas in the Midland Odessa area. Lubbock is 95 miles north of me. Thanks Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <002e01c1a7fd$05d38fc0$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/28/02 06:09 AM, you wrote: >6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in >scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? Allen, In what way would this be a boon? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kdmalone Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, > I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. Can anyone help me. I live in west Texas in the Midland Odessa area. Lubbock is 95 miles north of me. > I would use brewers yeast for a substitute and to get bulk supply I would call up animal food warehouses. Those that sell feed for horses usually sell it in large quantities. People who raise animals will use it to supplement the feed. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.317 / Virus Database: 176 - Release Date: 1/21/02 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee in > >scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? > In what way would this be a boon? This characteristic -- if it works the way Lusbys claim it works for them -- has been part of a previous wish list discussed here on BEE-L. The queens from laying workers aspect is just a bonus -- sorta like life insurance for a hive. The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees tolerate multiple queens. Lusbys claim to smoke in virgins successfully and get multi-queen hives as a result. Here are links to previous BEE-L posts on the topic of bees tolerating multiple queens and why we would like to have such bees.. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9712A&L=bee-l&P=R1246 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105A&L=bee-l&P=R701 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105A&L=bee-l&P=R1187 Tony Lalonde of Saskatchewan spoke at the AHPA convention recently, and he talked about using a vanilla spray technique to chase mated queens into already queen-right colonies. This was part of his talk on how to get 400 pound crops. Interestingly, Tony uses the same colour and marking selection criteria to recognise the queens carrying the characteristic (multi queen tolerance) as Dee does. I am sure they have never spoken and their bees are from completely different sources as far as anyone knows. Tony's bees are in Saskatchewan Canada and were taken over by him from an old European beekeeper who had maintained that particular stock for decades or more previously. (The exact timespan has slipped my mind -- I need to listen better) . Of course I am speculating here a bit, as we love to do on BEE-L, and we all know any such unusual bee behaviour could carry a downside. -- just consider South African scutellata problems with cape bees. Nonetheless, the risks are not proven here in America. Dee and Ed seem to be doing just fine lately, and that's thanks partly to the thelytoky, they say. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <009301c1a813$4a101ee0$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees >tolerate multiple queens. Allen, I have seen this many times. We mark the queens so that we can tell if they have been superceded. Often the marked queen and her daughter are present. I have requeened hives and discovered three laying queens. I have combined colonies and had two marked queens cohabiting for months. The idea that there is always only one queen is erroneous. As far as workers raising queens, I have never heard that this is a good thing, but we don't want supersedure in our hives in any case. Now, I have been in beekeeping long enough to know that supersedure queens can be excellent in terms of vigor and longevity, but in a breeding program where you are trying to control the type of bee you maintain (hygienic or whatever) they are a pain in the ass. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bee Breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Allen Dick writes: >I got to wondering about Dee's info at Barry's site since I >mentioned it recently. I see that it has evolved considerably and >is worth a read. http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/index.htm On the subject of bee breeding, they have this to say: >1. COLOR. >Color is of paramount importance in the breeding of honeybees. What >price has industry paid for down-playing the importance of color in >bee breeding to the detriment of our colonies, for color delineates >hot-weather (yellow) bees from cold-weather (black/brown) bees or >put in other words, - Tropical Zone bees from Temperate Zone bees. >This is a major natural biological division within nature and >therefore must be observed in bee breeding. This is in apparent contradiction to information that I have seen. Not only is there no such thing as a north/south color delineation, but the various races vary considerably in color within their own populations. And traditionally, breeders in America have tried to enhance these color differences: >The color of the Italian bee we know in North America is usually >rather light -- a somewhat muddy yellow -- well defined light bands >of yellow on the abdomen. In Italy this bee shows greater variation >in color, usually being darker than its western counterpart. ... In >shape and size the Caucasian bee resembles the Carniolan. It tends >to be brown in color, with brown spots... Like the Italian bee in >its homeland, the Caucasian bee varies in color more at home than in >America where it has selectively been bred for grayness. ... The >Black Bee of North America has varied from black to brown depending >on what part of Europe contributed it. Just as the Italian bee >varies in color and disposition, the Black-Brown bee varies. ... The >Cyprian bee is smaller than the Italian and more reddish. The >Sicilian bee is black in color, it is closely related to the black >bee of North Africa. > >The Tellian bee is found in North Africa, north of the Sahara and >from Libya to the Moroccan coast. ... Brother Adam says it is jet >black. The Rif bee of Morocco is between dark and yellow. ... The >Egyptian bee has striking gray-white stripes on the worker bees. >Apis mellifera nubica is perhaps the smallest bee measured to date. >Its habitat is the Sudan. It is a very yellow bee; the body is >short. Apis mellifera scutellata is called the yellow African bee. >It is an intensely aggressive bee. Apis mellifera monticola is a >mountain bee, large, dark and very gentle. It thrives in the >Tanzanian mountains. -- from ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture Brother Adam states in 1983: >As we can see, Nature has in no way produced the "best bee" or an >"ideal bee", still less a race if bees which answers all the desire >and needs of the modern beekeeper. The results of evaluating the >different races makes one thing clear: every race has its advantages >and it drawbacks, its good and bad characteristics linked together >and emphasized in a host of different ways, which have been >determined arbitrarily and by chance. Each race comprises a number >of good and indifferent strains, with by far the majority in the >latter category. > >Breeding experiments up to the present have bee have been confined >to the improvement and intensification of uniformity of particular >races, but these will never be adequate to meet the demands of the >future. Inbreeding brings about in the honeybee a serious >deterioration of vitality which raises insurmountable problems in >many directions. -- from "In Search of the Best Strains of Bees. In the SMRT lines that I have seen, the color is all over the map. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:31:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: More on Cornell research grant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the full press release on the Cornell grant, that contains important additional information compared with that sent earlier, see http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-01/cuns-ueh011002.php Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:50:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm looking for a source of Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour in 25 to 50 lb. > bags or drums as ingredients for pollen substitute. > I would use brewers yeast for a substitute and to get bulk supply I would > call up animal food warehouses. Those that sell feed for horses usually sell > it in large quantities. People who raise animals will use it to supplement > the feed. That is not necessarily the brewers yeast that a beekeeper can use. Many of these, especially cheap ones contain corn and other nutrients upon which the yeast was raised and are too low in protein to be much help. The additional components may actually be harmful. You want pure brewers yeast. It should cost about 50c US a pound in 50 pound bags in skid lots. The manufacturer of BEEPOL also has yeast, and produce it in Texas, but say they are sold out for this year. I have info on pollen patty making and yeast at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/Pollen/MakePollenPatties.htm and, of course a search from http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/Pollen/MakePollenPatties.htm using brewer yeast as a key and substring checked will give you 68 hits, many of which may be valuable. We have discussed yeast and patties fairly thoroughly here on BEE-L (but we still could use any more good info anyone has) and this is one case where a search of the archives could save someone headaches from getting the wrong stuff. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:56:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Rodney. Installing a queen excluder directly above the bottom board will cause swarms to self-retrieve. You must inspect to remove queen cells every 10 days if you use this method. See "Self Retrieving Swarms" Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford" Subject: Fwd: Bees&Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am forwarding your message to Bee-L for a possible response. Malcolm T. Sanford >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:40:35 -0800 (PST) >From: Nicusor Sur >Subject: Bees&Beekeepers >To: Apis_Newsletter-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, beeactor2001@yahoo.com, > beeactor@earthlink.net > >Dear Mr.Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford >My name is Nicusor Sur , I am a hobbist beekeeper from Romania . >I am a subscriber at Apis Monthly Beekeeping Newsletter and I'd like to >continue receiving >information from you . >I am very interested to learn esspecially about organic-biodynamic >beekeeping , that's why I >started to travel around the world and work in organic apiaries . Now I >work in an commercial >organic apiary from New Zealand and I plan to travel to United States in >March-April to work there >for a few months . > I'd like to come in United States in the Spring and work there for a few > months .Do you know some >real beekeepers , interested to employ a keen worker ? I'd like to work >for a commercial beekeeper >which really love and respect the bees . If you know someone , please tell >me . >If you wish , please visit my on-line beekeeping photo album at >http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/sur_nicusor/lst?.dir=/BEEKEEPING&.view=t . >I wish you all the best ! >Sincerelly yours , >Nicusor (Nick) Sur > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! >http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:11:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: screened bottom In-Reply-To: <200108260034.f7Q0YlQ04519@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200108260034.f7Q0YlQ04519@listserv.albany.edu>, stimey writes >Can anybody tell me what the threshold is in central NY, for varroa = >counts on screened bottom boards with stick board? I tested 5 hives out = >of 10 and had low counts in 24hrs. One hive had 1mite, Two had 3 One had = >4 and One had 5. I need to decide if I need to treat or wait till = >spring. Does each mite that drops represent 100 more or is it higher. = >All hives are avg. or stronger in two deep with from one to 4 shallows. = >By the way goldenrod flow slow, not seeing any asters yet, conditions = >dry. =20 Did you ever get an answer to this one. I don't remember seeing one on the list? If you did, would you let me know. Otherwise I shall use our Government's (old MAFF, new DEFRA) formulae to work it out. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:34:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Bees in a wall in Dallas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Dear all I received this email and ask if you'd help find a beekeeper near enough to help. I told her about 3 options, 2 involving a beekeeper attending (open the wall and remove or use the cone entrance method with another hive beside). I live in Red Oak Tx which is a southern suburb of Dallas Tx. We bought a trailer house and it has bees in the outside wall by our breaker box and phone lines. Makes a bit of a hassle to work on things. How would I get rid of them? I am not a bee keeper and don't know of anyone. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lynn Davis milto:"glitz" -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:24:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciated your taking the time to find the information and to post it to BEE-L Generally, when material is being cited from the www, BEE-L guidelines request simply giving URLs rather than cut-and-paste entire texts, since the text is available from the original site and not all members will want to receive or read the bulk of the material. This may be something we need to reconsider, though since websites change and some things like this are nice to have in the archives. > http://netcall.com.mx/abejas/en/history.htm > http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf1.html One thing I noticed is that, although you usually cite authors, the two sites given here appear to be anonymous. That is a shame, since we have no way of knowing whether the work there is researched or simply a regurgitation of the same old sources. Historical information is often hard to interpret, since one author will quote or paraphrase (or even interpret) another and so on and so on, resulting in what appears to be numerous distinct sources being, in fact, only one source. It is possible, even likely, that you are right, but there is always the chance that there is some unreported information, or that such terms as 'common bees' in one of the articles has a meaning other than what we understand. In reading the accounts from the past, we must always make assumptions --and we all know about assumptions. It is always fun to speculate as long as we recognise that we are speculating, and as long as we wait for good proof before believing too strongly the products of our own speculation. Thanks for keeping us thinking. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The idea that there is always only one queen is erroneous. > > As far as workers raising queens, I have never heard that this is a > good thing, but we don't want supersedure in our hives in any case. > Now, I have been in beekeeping long enough to know that supersedure > queens can be excellent in terms of vigor and longevity, but in a > breeding program where you are trying to control the type of bee you > maintain (hygienic or whatever) they are a pain in the ass. You hit the nail on the head here and there is the crux of the debate. * Some (most) beekeepers want bees they can just keep the old way, with limited visits a year, simple operations, and rugged bees that care for themselves. They want non-patented bees that can move into empty hives and which can beat off disease. In this scenario, maximum honey production is not the primary concern, since -- if the expenses are lower -- less honey is needed to finance and maintain the operation than in a highly managed operation. Moreover, since chemicals are not required, the demand should theoretically be better for their honey, and premium prices attained. This group considers any bee that is prolific and takes care of itself, but which can be managed and produce a decent harvest to be a godsend. * Others want bees that can be highly tuned for special purposes and which can support a bee breeding program, a technically developed, proprietary and exclusive queen rearing industry, plus industry meetings on all levels -- and highly equipped government labs with lots of specialists. Such bees *must* be tinkered with constantly and treated for diseases and protected from the neighbouring (more successful feral) bees, etc. They *must* produce exceptional output of bee products and require manufactured and licensed products to support all the people in the chain. This group considers any bee that is too prolific and uncontrollable to be a threat and a nuisance. * The latter group has IMO, dominated beekeeping media, thought, research and breeding over the past century. * There are things to be said for either approach, but we are in a new century and millennium with an information flow that has escaped, for a short while at least, the control of the monied interests. Consumers are reconsidering their dependencies and shifting allegiance solely on the basis of what has merit to them personally, rather than what supports the information hierarchy. Rather than only receiving information that supports a system which generates revenue for media and manufacturers and researchers, as in the past, we now can get information that makes a profit for no one but us. This leaves a lot of people out in the cold. What Wal-Mart and Home Depot did to small stores and layers of distributors and wholesalers, the internet is doing to the information business, including manufacturers, magazines, universities and researchers. Information is on the loose and traditional interests are running like hell to try to figure out how they can get back on the (gravy) train. Personally, I don't know where I stand on this, but it sure is fun to watch. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:08:02 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Aggressive bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >for approximately 2 weeks, large >part of my country (Macedonia) were under big (I don't >know how big) ozone hole. >In about same time - for the sake of my neighbours, I >couldn't work my bees because the bees were >unbelievable aggressive. >... I am only one who speculate that reason >was in extra UV radiation - all others were convinced >that reason was NATO strike (low flight of >helicopters, radiation from bombs and missiles, etc. >etc.) >Anyone who had find any correlation/indication between >aggressiveness of bees and ozone holes (extra UV >radiation)? The Antarctic ozone hole has always been more severe & widespread than the Arctic version - an injustice in that most of the chemicals (mainly freons) causing the ozone deplation are from the N hemisphere. We get (if I recall offhand) 10 - 15% extra UV flux, in summer. I suppose the ozone depletion over the descendants of Alex the Great - at the same latitude as us - is less than we've got. But I've not seen any maps of ozone density for that part of the world. My guess would be that this is at most a minor contributor to aggressive behaviour. But we don't know; it's just another example of how neglected applied ecology is among govts. I add that the other suggested causes, for Macedonia, are also on their face implausible. Better look for other causes, I reckon. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:01:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lennard Pisa Subject: AFB and NaOH dipping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Bee-listers, In stead of flaming my second hand though really good hives from Germany my "beefather" suggested dipping in a strong sodium hydroxide solution for about half an hour. Is this treatment good enough to tackle AFB spores? (hope so, otherwise I might be evaporating a lot of perizin into the air if flaming is still necessarry, as the boxes come from a deceased beekeeper who had big bottles of this pesticide in his work room) kind regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:23:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour In-Reply-To: <200201281659.g0SGxwi01792@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone determined the effect of the phyto-estrogens contained in soy flour on bees? We had the only non-productive rabbits in the world after feeding them a ration which used soy in place of bypass animal protein. It took me quite awhile to figure out the probable cause. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:47:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: This characteristic -- if it works the way Lusbys claim it works for = them -- has been part of a previous wish list discussed here on BEE-L. The = queens from laying workers aspect is just a bonus -- sorta like life insurance = for a hive. Capensis has been kept in SA by beekeepers for years in the Cape area. = Although not a bee I would want for my operation I suppose if capensis = is all you have got to work with then have at it. There can be no queen = improvement program with capensis. Allen wrote: Of course I am speculating here a bit, as we love to do on BEE-L, and we = all know any such unusual bee behaviour could carry a downside. -- just = consider South African scutellata problems with cape bees. At least Allen is keeping a level head (as usual). If you look at the = cape bee(capensis) in South Africa you see as per Barry Seargent's posts = that capensis WILL take over the hive of any other race of bees. Even = scut hives! Dr. Hoffman explained in great detail what they are seeing = in Arizona. The capensis workers enter the hive during a honey flow. All = hives will admit workers with pollen or nectar during a honey flow. The = capensis workers start laying their own eggs. The capensis pheromones = are stronger I believe than European queens so the Existing queen is = replaced with a capensis queen RAISED by the capensis intercaste = workers. After time the hive is capensis. This same scenario could play = out all over the U.S..=20 The end result would be all hives would be capensis. A typically low = honey production bee which CANNOT be bred for traits which bee breeders = breed for BECAUSE of the thelytoky trait. Allen wrote: Nonetheless, the risks are not proven here in America.=20 You are right we have only got one state completely capensis now. Let us = wait till all of California is capensis before deciding if capensis is a = good or bad thing.=20 Dee and Ed seem to be doing just fine lately, and that's thanks partly to the thelytoky, = they say. I certainly wish Dee & Ed the best and wish the USDA had looked at = their hives earlier if capensis genes are the cause of the large = amount of thelytoky going on in their bees. To sum things up beekeepers = do keep capensis bees for honey production in South Africa. Problem = is there next door beekeeper has to keep capensis also because the cape = bee will take over all over strains of bees. Do the Lusby's keep any = other strains of bees other than the black super bee? If I was with the = USDA I would bring in 20 hives of European bees into the Lusby's area = and see how long it took for those hives to be taken over. by thelytoky = bees Dee and Ed (backed up by Allen) are saying the same thing Dr. Hoffman = reported at the convention or am I missing something.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all the = characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:55:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <00cd01c1a820$4f662a80$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >You hit the nail on the head here and there is the crux of the debate. I think the debate that I have entered into is a bit different than what you outlined. I think that some people think that they can solve problems by working in isolation and scoffing at what others have spent a lifetime discovering. The most these people can ever achieve is to develop a system that may work for them, but most likely will not be exportable (not without them going along with it as consultants). On the other hand, there are those who are trying to find solutions that will work for everyone. The effort to find hygienic or disease resistant bees does not lead to specialized bees which require coddling. This effort seeks a more vigorous bee that will work everywhere from Russia to Louisiana, from Maine to Macedonia. Because most of the same problems exist in all these areas: mites, bacteria, and the need to have bees that pay their own way. There are plenty of examples of cooperation in the world, where people stop thinking about me and start thinking about us. The New Zealand AFB plan is a good example of it. No doubt there were dissenters, doubters, but they managed to come up with a national plan. I doubt if we will ever have a national plan for the health of honey bees in this country. We don't even have a national health plan for people. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas In-Reply-To: <00b001c1a818$4c8bdb00$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:24 -0700 1/28/02, Allen Dick wrote: >One thing I noticed is that, although you usually cite authors, the >two sites given here appear to be anonymous Right. Sorry about the long posts, but I just wanted to make clear that beekeeping has a very long history in the Americas -- but NOT with Apis mellifera. If Apis mellifera had been here already, the Spanish, Dutch, etc. would have had no need to import it. According to Eva Crane, in "The Archaeology of Beekeeping" (pp. 61-62) "honey hunting and beekeeping in hives were already developed in prehistoric times, although not many records of it survive. There are no native honeybees in America, and the bees used were various species of stingless bee (Meliponini); they build rather amorphous nests from which honey and wax were harvested. The earliest surviving written account is by Bishop Diego de Landa who arrived in Yucatan in 1549." Another thing my long quote emphasized was the need for beeswax by the Spanish church. They were ready to exploit whatever sources of wax were here, but finding them inadequate, they undertook to import bees from Europe. If the New World had suitable bees, the explorers definitely would have adopted them, like they did tomato, potato, tobacco, and other New World treasures. Further, if some form of Apis Mellifera had been here, someone would have seen it and written about it. But even so, unless it was extremely useful, it would have been supplanted by the Italian bee. Remember, the black bee was brought here first, and then when the Italian bee craze hit, it was all but replaced by "Golden Italians". (For those who tuned in late, this discussion relates to a comment that honeybees may have been in the Americas before the conquest by the Europeans and that the descendents of such bees may still exist in Arizona.) -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:53:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Brewers Yeast and Soy Flour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone determined the effect of the phyto-estrogens contained in soy > flour on bees? I know we select toasted soy flour to ensure that some digestion inhibiting factors are killed. As for the phyto-estrogens, I have no idea whether these chemicals have any significance to non-mammals. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: acetone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John: Was the door acetone or acetic acid? Acetic acid is often produced by bacterial action on ethanol, which is the product of fermentation of honey. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:32:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: New research program at Cornell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lloyd and All, I read this post on the other list. I can't help but wonder about all = the reference to Africanized bees below. Why doesn't the USDA tell us = what they already know about AHB from over 16 years of study. Until Dr. = Hoffman spoke up last week I thought Africanized bees were a very minor = issue. Certainly not worth half of a 1.8 million dollar grant.=20 Genetics and Integrated Pest Management Center that will study the continuing threat from deadly parasitic mites and AFRICANIZED honeybees. = The center is funded by a $1.8 million grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Initiative for Future Agriculture and Food Systems. The grant will establish the largest university-based, honeybee research and extension infrastructure in the country. The new center will focus on developing solutions to the TWO MAJOR=20 threats to honeybees, insects that are responsible for agricultural pollination valued in the billions of dollars.=20 He notes that the extremely defensive Africanized honeybee could be even more devastating. This honeybee is well established in the southwestern United States and is spreading northward into the Central Valley area of California and into the southeastern United States, says Calderone. These are the principal queen and package-bee producing areas that supply beekeepers with new stock to replace losses due to parasitic mites. "The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in these areas will result in restrictions on the shipment of bees from these areas. This, in turn, will severely limit the ability of beekeepers to restock their operations," he says. Bob wrote: Is capensis causing all the problems for the NEW Africanized concern? = Although 1.8 million grant sounds like a huge amount of money consider = there are 525,000 acres of Almonds in California with projected acres of = 595,000 in the near future. Each needs 2 hives per acre for pollination. = Almonds WILL NOT produce without bees. Grower returns at present are = around one billion dollars. I have been told Almonds are the top ag = export.=20 In my opinion the thought of restrictions for africanized reasons Is rather ludicrous. What are the USDA not telling us and why do they = think they can restrict the spread of AHB in California when the USDA = has not been able to stop the spread of AHB anyplace else.=20 Migratory pollination, which provides the majority of pollination services, might be particularly hard hit because migratory bee operators typically spend the winter in the South and travel throughout the United States to pollinate crops during the spring and summer. The establishment of the Africanized honeybee in the southern states will result in restrictions on the movement of migratory operations throughout the country, Calderone says. New restrictions for California for migratory beekeepers =20 Because the breeding populations will be maintained using closed- mating technology, they will be kept free of Africanized honeybee genes, thereby providing an unadulterated source for commercial queen and package producers. Why is Calderone thinking we need to keep a source of bees free of = africanized genes? What is the USDA not telling us? I sincerely hope my = analysis of Lloyds posting will encourage beekeepers to ask questions of = their friends in the USDA and report back. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:32:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB and NaOH dipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lennard, Back in the 20's, 30's, and 40's, boiling in a strong solution of NaOH was the "way" used by many beekeepers to kill AFB spores. Generally, the only parts "decontaminated" by this means were the hive bodies and bottom board. Frames, inner covers, and excluders were too flimsy to stand the effect of the NaOH, and hence were rarely subjected to this harsh treatment. The major problem is danger to YOURSELF and of course the finding of a suitable place to dispose of the used NaOH. If you are NOT a chemist, sodium hydroxide is dangerous to handle, and HOT "lye" is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to you. I have used this method, back in the 30's, in the woods with a 55 gallon drum heated with a wood fire under it. I was young and foolish then. I would be strongly opposed to an amateur using NaOH today, and legal disposal of the used NaOH would be almost impossible. What state are you in? Maryland and North Carolina can decontaminate bee equipment with ethylene oxide, and Massachusetts uses cobalt irradiation. Hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: Red Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles Harper" > > > Henbit, at least that's what it's known by here. It's a small blueish > tubular flower, > > member of the mint family. > > I concur, though I would describe it as red-orange pollen. I walked the fields today and I did find some Henbit in bloom and the pollen was more of a orange color. The red pollen that I am seeing is bright red, the color of the stripes on our flag. I don't believe this is the source of the red pollen that I am seeing. Any more ideas? I searched the BEE-L archives and noticed the post about the bees visiting the flowers at the cementary and I do have one about a mile away. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:28:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are right we have only got one state completely capensis now. Let us = > wait till all of California is capensis before deciding if capensis is a = > good or bad thing.= Hmmmm. So far, this is the first statement (I think) that I have read that the capensis-like characteristics seen in Arizona bees are indeed because the bees are capensis, not just capensis-like. Is there any evidence other than a similarity in some behaviours, or is this just speculation? > bee will take over all over strains of bees. Do the Lusby's keep any = > other strains of bees other than the black super bee? If you look at my pictures at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ and http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick, you will see that most of their bees are at least partially yellow. HOWEVER, Dee tells me that to have the good disease and pest management in a hive, she looks for at least one sub-family of black bees and selects for that. > and wish the USDA had looked at = > their hives earlier if capensis genes are the cause of the large = > amount of thelytoky going on in their bees. I think they have. Maybe Dee will step out here and say something? > "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all the = > characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20 Well, that is just a maybe, and also still a big 'IF'. allen http://photos.yahoo.com/allendick