From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:36:10 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938B448A36 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3s0010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0201E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 143978 Lines: 3076 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:02:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, This is in my PINK PAGES. The number one cause of swarming is brood chamber CONGESTION, which has nothing to do with the supers. Bees like to move UP, never down. Hence, now you bottom brood chamber should be totally empty of brood and honey, and the queen, brood, and honey are in the 2nd story. REVERSING is, by far, the most efficient way to keep the queen laying without swarming. However, you dare not split the brood (divide the brood into two different areas of the brood chamber), so REVERSING has to be done at the right time (not when you get around to it). The right time is when about 90% of the brood is all in the 2nd story and only 10% or less in the first story. You might have to reverse 2-5 times between now and April 15th depending on your queen, population, weather, and other variables. The 2nd most popular cause of swarming is the age of the queen. Beekeepers are finally learning that a 12 months old queen is an OLD LADY and quite likely to swarm, because she can no longer produce enough queen pheromone to "glue" a large group of worker bees together as a single functioning unit, so the bees swarm. This is why I requeen EVERY September 1st, so that my "spring queen" is very young and will not swarm. Almost all BIG commercial beekeepers requeen annually and some requeen twice each year so they don't have swarms. If you have old queens, I would make splits with them and then recombine them in July or August if you don't want any more colonies. I hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: are you 100% sure of the accuracy of all of this Comments: To: Nancy McFadden In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020128192851.00f9ac90@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" [I have inserted the missing URLs. Sorry, usually I am better about including sources] Subject: Re: Pesticide abuse A survey by Nebraska agriculture engineers reported in fall 1994 in Chemical Application Journal that found that two out of every three pesticide applicators were making significant application errors the result of inaccurate calibration, incorrect mixing, worn equipment and failure to read the product label. According to the article by Larry Reichenberger, "The Billion-Dollar Blunder," these mistakes in application were costing farmers from $2 to $12 per acre in added chemical expense, potential crop damage and threatened weed competition. The findings were bolstered by EPA's own surveys in the late 1980's and early 1990's, particularly in Region VI, that found that a large portion of the pesticide user community does not: 1) read the label prior to applications, 2) follow the directions for use, resulting in both over and under application of pesticides, and 3) communicate information about the pesticide being applied in the agricultural field to workers. Dye said that OPP reviews and issues approximately 3,500 pesticide label amendments per year, and that if users are not reading the labels, which she said was a special problem with products they are familiar with, they may be missing important new safety information. http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/pestqtrly/pq15-1w2.htm . . . A 1994 study of pesticide labels published in the JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN OPTOMETRIC ASSOCIATION found that it requires an 11th-grade cognitive reading level to understand a pesticide label, which means that 40 to 50 percent of the general population cannot read and understand the directions on a pesticide product label, even if all members of the public had the necessary 20/30 visual acuity to read the fine print. http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/ehbr01.htm . . . Ten Common Pesticide Infractions Listed below are ten common infractions of pesticide laws as found by inspectors in one EPA region. The list provides some good points for pesticide training classes because it serves as a reminder of some of the simple things that can be overlooked. The points are valid for both private and commercial applicators. 1.Invalid business or applicator license - Do you know where your card is? If so, check the expiration date. If not, well ... 2.Label violation - This includes the use of a product on plants (or sites) no longer supported by the label or not following label instructions. For example, the labels for many pesticides have been changed over the past 4 to 5 years as a result of the EPA's reregistration program. Consequently, many uses for products, such as diazinon and malathion, have been eliminated. Some applicators may continue to buy and use products on plants (sites) that are no longer on the label. Reading the label before purchase and use is imperative. 3.Improper mixing - Read compatibility statements and other directions carefully. Problems here can be due to prohibited tank mixes that cause interactions. There can be plant reactions from combinations of certain classes of pesticides that are applied days, or even weeks, apart. 4.Failure to survey the site before applying a pesticide - This can range from overlooking or forgetting a sinkhole in a field to accidental spraying of a pet's water bowl or children's toys by a lawn care applicator. 5.Poor preparation for spills or other emergencies - How many application rigs carry some soap, water, disposable towels, and an eyewash kit? Worker protection standards now are very specific about providing decontamination materials. Applicators should be familiar with how to handle spills of the pesticides they are transporting or applying. 6.Drift complaints - Particle and/or vapor drift can result in off-target movement of a pesticide. Knowledge of product characteristics and attention to environmental conditions such as wind speeds or inversions will reduce the potential for problems. Be aware of sensitive nearby crops or plants. 7.Incomplete or missing records - Private and commercial applicators must keep appropriate records of pesticide applications. Dealers who sell restricted use pesticides also must maintain records that contain specific. information about products and purchasers. 8.Spray tank not properly cleaned; applicator not familiar with tank's history - This can lead to crop damage or illegal residues. Purchase of used spray equipment should include determining the types of products that had been applied by the previous owner. Solvents in some EC formulations can serve as tank cleaners. This can result in inadvertent crop injury by the new owner. 9.Applicator makes erroneous product safety claims - While there could be cases of overselling a product, lack of familiarity with the label may be a major reason for unrealistic claims. Read beyond just the crop and rate information. Look critically for cautions or warnings, such as crop or variety sensitivity or effects of specific weather conditions on applications or product efficacy. 10.Failure to use required personal protective equipment - Requirements are spelled out now and may even require specific types of gloves or spray suits. Use quality equipment, and keep it clean and functional. Replace it as needed. http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/document/labels/infractn.htm -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Slaughter Subject: Swarm decoy Has anyone had any luck setting up empty hive bodies to attract swarms when they occure? Are there any better ways to di this? Thanks Frank Northern Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: NaOH dipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Quebec, where the Min. of Ag. once had a mobile ethylene dioxide fumigation trailer c/w hot caustic tanks, the approved method of disposing of the used caustic is as follows:- once the sodium hydroxide solution has cooled, add 5 gallons of concentrated "acide chlohydrique" to 45 gallons of caustic. This brings the ph of 14 to ph 9. Once neutralised the solution can be poured onto the soil at an acceptable site. I have not translated the term "acide chlohydrique" so as not to make an error. Whether this acid is dangerous, l do not know. As to a suitable site for disposing of the resulting liquid - we always presumed that it could be the end of the garden or a corner of a field. Thousands of hives have, in the past, been treated in hot caustic. The treated equipment has to be aired for quite some time and the components are always less rigid. Myself, I am not sure if it's really worth the effort. Now some beekeepers have built large wax dipping tanks to sterilise their equipment, very similar to the New Zealand system and that "appears" to be working okay. Peter > The major problem is danger to YOURSELF and of course the finding of a > suitable place to dispose of the used NaOH. If you are NOT a chemist, sodium > hydroxide is dangerous to handle, and HOT "lye" is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to you. > I would be strongly opposed to an amateur using NaOH today, and legal disposal of > the used NaOH would be almost impossible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:35:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201290046.g0T0k4i29562@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to BEE-L Allen Dick wrote: Hmmmm. So far, this is the first statement (I think) that I have read that the capensis-like characteristics seen in Arizona bees are indeed because the bees are capensis, not just capensis-like. Is there any evidence other than a similarity in some behaviours, or is this just speculation? Reply: This appears to be just speculation on Bob's part. But If Bob can imagine Capenis AHB in Arizona and California and we are now not talking Scuts, then what really is Africanization in the Americas? A change at will scenario for any strain/race of African bee? But if Bob can change the AHB recognized race one normally thinks of, then what about the rest of the USA? buckfasts are then africanized also with at least 5 maybe more strains of africanized bees making it up, but I could be wrong. Also if we are talking Capenis traits that Bob appears to be afraid of IMPOV then what about capenis traits verified by Makensen of the USDA in Golden Italian 57% verified when checked for, regular 3-banded Italian 9% verified when checked for, and caucasian 23% verified when checked for. By the way ours were verified by the USDA (Drs Hoffman and ERickson as 55.6% rearing worker brood from those colonies checked from eggs of laying workers and 50% of those reared regular queens. Also stated by all of us in the paper published in 1991, the LUS stock were selected from commercial European honey bee stock, indicating then that thelytoky may exist as part of the overall Apis mellifera gene pool. Also documented at that time was that there were both similarities and differences between laying workers of Cape bees and our LUS strain. Also I wish to state that prior to testing R.H. Anderson collected for me in S. Africa both drones and workers from 12 different capensis colonies and mailed them to me so that Dr Hoffman and Dr ERickson and the USDA could have samples to compare our honeybees against to be sure later on they would not be labeled (our bees now) as capenis. This sampling was acknowledged to me in letter dated 1988/07/04 and samples were accordingly turned over to the USDA as we had contract with them. Also turned over to the USDA were samples sent to me from Bill Vanderput (per letter April 30, 1988) of cape bee sample locations 4 and 5 of his trip to S. Africa (gathering information and samples for the USDA) along with samples of scuts from location #3 of his trip. Other vials Bill Vanderput brought back if I remember correctly went to Dr Keith Smith in Atlanta for analysis. Allen wrote: Dee tells me that to have the good disease and pest management in a hive, she looks for at least one sub-family of black bees and selects for that. Reply: Yes, We are in a temperate zone, not in a tropical zone (sidenote here-snow predicted for Tucson starting tomorrow night, not exactly a tropical event)and we try to manage our colonies for several things. We are a natural transition area where yellow and black bees come together so on the flats they are more yellowish and in the higher hills they transition into the dark side. We manage our bees by breeding into and out of the yellow and black breding zones by usage of out-of-season modified breeding and have done so for a number of years. Please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm published in Apiacta XXX pgs 20-29 titled Field Breeding Basics for Honeybees using Colony Thermodynamics within the Transition Zones. We have found that having at least one small black sub-family results in better disease control, better pest control, better winter carry-over, and yes better gentleness. Also less swarming and bees that stay with a colony when animals predicate upon them so that we don't find deadouts upon field maintenance checks periodically done (we then stand the stacks back up, or put lids back on, frames back in etc.and clean up the mess caused by horses, cattle, vandals, etc.) We also breed out bees for speeded up genetics so necessary for help in combating mites. Please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjnov1989.htm published in American Bee Journal Nov 1989 titled: Managing Colony Genetics by Grafting and Selecting for Queens with Shorter Development Times (and by the way, verified by co-authorship with USDA - Dee here). Since we are on our selection methods for our bees, also please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm published in Apiacta 1992 titled Suggested Biological Manipulative Treatment for Control of Honeybee Mites The above we used in conjunction with the US FIFRA code for formal request for biological methods for our industry in Arizona for control of perasitic mites so beekeepers wouldn't be forced into using chemicals. However under the FIFRA code it must be asked for the biological option to use vs chemical controls. But once asked for it SHALL (which is must under the law) be given and allowed. Bob Harrison wrote: > and wish the USDA had looked at = > their hives earlier if capensis genes are the cause of the large = > amount of thelytoky going on in their bees. Allen Dick replied: I think they have. Maybe Dee will step out here and say something? Reply: I think I have said and asnwered this above. Yes, thelytoky is deeply involved with our bees, but the trait is also there for all bees on a natural system. So what is wrong with wanting a natural system of beekeeping that is clean and sustainable? Other things we have also strived to do besides breeding for self-sustaining bullet proof(mite proof/disease proof) bees were 1) to reduce labor costs 2) to reduce wear and tear on our vehicles by eliminating back trips for various doping of chemicals and putting in and retreiving of queen cages, cell cups, etc. 3) to reduce costs associated with actal treatments as chemicals are expensive and contaminating 4) reduce winter loss 5) reduce queen failure agonized over by other commercial beekeepers. What is wrong with being self-contained with own stock and keeping costs to a minimum and owing certs and fees to no-one. Allen replied to Bob here: > "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all the = > characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20 Well, that is just a maybe, and also still a big 'IF' Reply: Take away the name of bees and you have yellow and black, small and large and all demonstrating (at least in the past, and some not so distant past if our read the references) thelytoky. It is natural and necessary and when Italian were originally bred and referred to as a thorooughbred bee no one quetioned. When Tunisan bees were brought to the Northeast of the USA no one questioned. When caucasian was brought to the USA no one questioned. It is how the bees all envolved over time. Bees cannot transition into and out of various zones on earth with out backup breeding scenarios. Plants propagate by seeds and cuttings. It is dual for continuation of species. Bees follow plant genetics somewhat and many insects like bees have this trait. Bees can propagate by queens laying eggs, but this is during times of good, and everyone one can breed during times of constant good. But in bad times things get rough and other avenues are needed for survival. Stress at times is rough. But only through stress breeding do you make change to get what you need in characteristics and traits for survivalability for ones bees.Virgin queens or even queen cells droping into colonies with out of season breeding programs accomplished this. W.T. Kelly for years sold and maybe still does fall queens. Any one ever thought Why? Perhaps the similarities between thelytoky and fall queen or out of season breeding with virgins should be explained. Maybe it would explain my Dr Mackensen saw so much thelytoky. On another note concerning the Tucson lab while I think of it. H.K. Poole working in Tucson at the lab there was into this kind of research years ago. I believe Taber has said that he found (Poole here) that about one worker out of 100 was capable of laying an egg that day. I even think Steve himself has seen it and stated so. It is nothing new. Nothing to be afraid of, except maybe unless you are afraid of not having to worry about mites and diseases when you place your bees back onto a natural system again, and yes in conjunction (mandatory) also use small cell size foundation. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:01:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Allen Dick [SMTP:allend@INTERNODE.NET] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:29 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There > You are right we have only got one state completely capensis now. Let = us=20 > wait till all of California is capensis before deciding if capensis is = a=20 > good or bad thing. Allen wrote: Hmmmm. So far, this is the first statement (I think) that I have read = that the capensis-like characteristics seen in Arizona bees are indeed = because the bees are capensis, not just capensis-like. Is there any evidence other than a similarity in some behaviours, or is = this just speculation? I stand by my original post.about Dr. Hoffman (representative to the = ABF convention from the Tucson bee lab). =20 When I asked at the end of her talk if we were talking about capensis = her answer was "you are exactly right". =20 I have tried to get a breakdown from the USDA as to what degree of = africanization is necessary for a bee to be considered africanized. I = have also tried to find out details about the Erickson/Hines project = but only general information has been released.I have also tried to find = out if the USDA can tell a scut from a capensis. Surely a retired = researcher from one of the bee labs or a apiary inspector can answer = those questions? The USDA has been slamming doors in my face today. = Hmmm. Privately I was told Dr. Hoffman is only a figure head and not = directly involved with the research. Another USDA person indicated I was = on the right trail but was afraid of his job if he spoke openly. A = retired USDA said because he was now retired he could talk openly but = when I asked the million dollar question he never emailed me back. Hmmm. Maybe others will get better results. In the meantime order the lecture = tape from the ABF as the federation needs the money and decide for = yourself. The lecture was at 9:30 am on Thursday January 17th. "Pollination research at Tucson"-Dr. Gloria De Grandi Hoffman, Tucson = Bee Lab,USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona. Last year you could order a cassette of any lecture you wanted or all = lectures. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:28:21 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I stand by my original post.about Dr. Hoffman (representative to the = ABF convention from the Tucson bee lab). =20 When I asked at the end of her talk if we were talking about capensis = her answer was "you are exactly right". =20 Bob, You talk about doors slamming in your face, I'm not surprised. Why would they want to talk with you if they know you are taking statements that were said in private and now making them public as if it was gospel? I'm surprised it is being allowed on this list in this form. She did not represent the lab when she spoke to you in private, she represented herself. The lab representation was her talk in public. Please don't continue to support this one private remark as something that it isn't. We must always guard our private conversations. mark _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: NaOH dipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > once the sodium hydroxide solution has cooled, add 5 gallons of > concentrated "acide chlohydrique" to 45 gallons of caustic. That is hydrochloric acid, HCl, muriatic acid, whatever... Casually adding a concentrated acid to a strong alkali is often a dangerous activity for an unprepared, untrained and unprotected person. Whether a unexpected and violent reaction may occur in this case depends on a number of factors, including the size and shape of vessels, the concentrations of the acid and base, the temperatures of the solutions, etc. In any case, this whole neutralization procedure is likely entirely unnecessary, since NaOH is a common drain cleaner and solutions of NaOH can just be poured, carefully, in reasonably small amounts like we are likely to use, down any drain that leads to proper sewage treatment (not a pond or river). Moreover, it is entirely unnecessary to use NaOh on a hive tool. Ordinary household bleach used full strength (5.25% sodium hypochlorite) will do the job with much less risk. Adding NaOH to water in a small container is highly exothermic and not a reasonable thing to do for a little disinfecting job. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:29:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit markotts@hotmail.com wrote: "Bob, You talk about doors slamming in your face, I'm not surprised. Why would they want to talk with you if they know you are taking statements that were said in private and now making them public as if it was gospel? I'm surprised it is being allowed on this list in this form. She did not represent the lab when she spoke to you in private, she represented herself. The lab representation was her talk in public. Please don't continue to support this one private remark as something that it isn't. We must always guard our private conversations." Hold on there Mark. I was also at the meeting and the remarks were in public - questions after her prepared talk and Dr Hoffman was representing the Tuscon Lab. Her talk was interesting and this was only a small part of it but she was describing the difficulties they were having keeping european colonies in an afticanized area. This could be an issue in the future in pollination sets in California and so is very relevant research. The taking over of european colonies by the africanized bees was very interesting and very quickly brought to mind the cape bee issue since the characters of the bees being described really did sound more cape than scut i.e. dark intercasts and dark bees of african origin. I really don't think they have tried to determine if it is cape bees or scuts as they only say african vs european orgin for the bees. Kerr did import cape bees and in AZ the bees are in a more temperate climate which could select for the cape traits but whatever the source I had the same thoughts as Bob that she was describing cape bees not scuts which is a little different twist on the issue. Dr Taylor from KS has some data that suggests the african and european bees may be different species from a biological point of view. The first generation hybrids do ok but the second generation hybrids seem to break down and not survivie very well at all. Queens also show selective mating to drones or their type but the african queens are more selective than the europeans. This reproductive isolation could explain the observations that the african type bees tend to take over in areas where they can survive instead of blending into the resident european bee population as would be expected if they were the same species and therefore fully reproductively compatable. An interesting subject and one where we need answers. FWIW blane _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:16:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: NaOH dipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter John Keating wrote: > once the sodium hydroxide solution has cooled, add 5 gallons of > concentrated "acide chlohydrique" to 45 gallons of caustic. This brings the > ph of 14 to ph 9. > Once neutralised the solution can be poured onto the soil at an acceptable > site. Acide chlohydrique is probably HCl or Hydochloric Acid and is generally used with Sodium Hydoxide as an example of a strong Acid- strong Base reaction. The products are water and NaCl or table salt. But the starting ingredients are nasty. And in those concentrations I would pour very slowly and wear protective clothing and face protection. To me, it is just not worth it both from a safety and economic viewpoint. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: AFB and NaOH dipping In-Reply-To: <200201290500.g0T502i12496@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In last number of my journal I had a question from one of readers about using sodium hydroxide or caustic soda (NaOH) for disinfection of hive equipment. Because I had no personal expiriance I pass the instructions/recommendations which are preached by veterinarians in Slovenia. They recommend using 2% hot solution of NaOH. Now I have read that NaOH can be EXTREMELY dangerous for the one who work with it... 1. What are the safety recommendations? I doubt that such a weak water solution (2%) of NaOH can kill/inactivate the spores of American foulbrood. As I understand, it's main purpose is to expose the spores to the heat of the water, but... 2)... Did 10 minutes in hot solution of 2% NaOH is enough for equipment to be disinfected, as Slovenian veterinarians are recommending? ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:11:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Different species In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/29/02 10:29 AM, Blane wrote: >Dr Taylor from KS has some data that suggests the african and european bees may be different species from a biological point of view. What does this mean? Species can *only* be defined from a biological point of view, there is no other point of view from which to define species. Further, data indicate nothing in themselves; they must be interpreted. However, the fact that they interbred so easily would tend to discount the need for classifying them as separate species. On what basis would such a division be made? It is worth noting, again, that taxonomists tend to be either lumpers or splitters, and that in many cases there are not arbitrary divisions present between organisms. pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:01:14 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Swarm decoy In-Reply-To: <200201291406.g0TE6Vi23686@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Has anyone had any luck setting up empty hive bodies to attract swarms when >they occur? Are there any better ways to do this? This is a plausible idea. I've tried it for many months at a time - a nice clean pre-owned hive a few yards from one liable to swarm. I've never had any colony arrive in any such. They prefer the noisy corroboree swirling over much of my back yard, followed by the massing on a high branch, the moving down with the mirrored sun's image on the top of the mass, the bashing of the low branch so the swarm flops into the cardboard box, and then the wonderful moonlight march when tipped on the lawn in front of the empty hive which they scorned to go directly into. It's impossible to understand all the propensities of this species, but I must say the process they thereby force on me somehow does me good. Ignorant neighbours in suburbia can misunderstand, but I love swarms. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:53:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Swarm decoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Has anyone had any luck setting up empty hive bodies to > attract swarms when they occur? Are there any better ways to do this? These are more properly called "bait hives". Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There are optimal placements for bait hives, rule of thumb recommendations run about 10 feet off the ground, facing south/southeast. A beekeeper friend has routinely placed a bait hive out for as long as he's been keeping bees. He is now a senior man, he learned keeping bees as a boy from his father. The only time he caught a swarm on his bait hive was a time the swarm settled on the platform supporting the bait hive. On the other hand, I have had swarms settle in bait hives in my driveway 3 years in a row, until my local village goverment forbade me to keep bait hives (or any beekeeping equipment) in my driveway. Hopefully the next swarm will settle in the mayor's living room. Good attractants for bait hives are old comb. Pheremone lures are sold by some supply houses to attract swarm to bait hives, but said lures receive mixed reviews. Some herbs will attract swarms (bee balm and perhaps borage). The best advice for the placement of bait hives is to have them in place well in advance of the swarm. Scout bees seek new locations well in advance of swarm issuance. Scouts will even start defending potential new homes (bait hives) days before the hive swarms. You might notice activity at a bait hive tipping you off that a swarm will arrive in the next few days. Then again, you might not ever get a pay off. It's luck of the draw. Plenty in the archives on "bait hives" Archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris - think a colony at home is worth two in a bait hive! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:47:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: are you 100% sure of the accuracy of all of this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit :> A survey by Nebraska agriculture engineers reported in fall 1994 in > Chemical Application Journal that found that two out of every three > pesticide applicators were making significant application errors the result > of inaccurate calibration, incorrect mixing, worn equipment and failure to > read the product label. According to the article by Larry Reichenberger, > "The Billion-Dollar Blunder," these mistakes in application were costing > farmers from $2 to $12 per acre in added chemical expense, potential crop > damage and threatened weed competition. I think there is alot more to the story than what is being reported by these sources. In my 20 years of dealing with the California agricultural community, I commonly see farmers applying less than the label rate when they know they will likely be able to get away with it. Example: If the Roundup label says to apply a gallon per acre, farmers will typically try to get by with one or two pints per acre and save a bunch of money. Surveys may be biased if all they do is document cases of misuse/overuse. But I believe alot of farmers would say an overemphasis on misuse/overuse helps authors and eco-consultants sell their scare articles and books. Paul Cherubini Shore Chemical Company Turlock, Calif. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:27:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Different species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 1/29/02 10:29 AM, Blane wrote: >Dr Taylor from KS has some data that suggests the african and european bees may be different species from a biological point of view. ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> plb6@CORNELL.EDU wrote>>> "What does this mean? Species can *only* be defined from a biological point of view, there is no other point of view from which to define species. Further, data indicate nothing in themselves; they must be interpreted. However, the fact that they interbred so easily would tend to discount the need for classifying them as separate species. On what basis would such a division be made? It is worth noting, again, that taxonomists tend to be either lumpers or splitters, and that in many cases there are not arbitrary divisions present between organisms." Horses and donkeys also interbreed easily but the offspring are a reproductive dead end. This also appears to be at least somewhat the case with honey bees from africa and europe. The hybrid offspring may appear to be fertile but their offspring don't survive so what is the practical difference? If the honey bees from southern africa are a different species how they interact with honey bees from europe will be different than if they are a race or strain of the same species. The practical management of the insects will be somewhat different as well. Taxonomists also are often fooled by species that though different appear very similar and sorting out this situation often leads to better understanding and much improved management of the populations in question whether they are considered pests or beneficial. One thing should be clear - we need to better understand the interactions between these honey bee populations as the african honey bees move further north. FWIW blane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Different species In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1/29/02 01:27 PM, you wrote: >This also appears to be at least somewhat the case with honey bees from africa and europe. The hybrid offspring may appear to be fertile but their offspring don't survive so what is the practical difference? If the honey bees from southern africa are a different species how they interact with honey bees from europe will be different than if they are a race or strain of the same species. The practical management of the insects will be somewhat different as well. Blane, Now I confess to being thoroughly confused. Didn't Warwick Kerr cross European bees and African bees, and didn't the progeny populate most of South and Central America? Or are you talking about the Cape Bees only? I can see that they might be a separate species, with strange habits unfamiliar to all other strains of Apis mellifera. But I am no taxonomist (wouldn't want to be). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:48:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm decoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure, and they work sometimes. However, there are certain criteria that is important to follow: It is best to use a well used hive body rather than a new one, so it has the smell of bees in it. It is best to have some old frames of drawn comb in it. It is VERY IMPORTANT to have the "bait hive" 10'-12' higher than ground level, and in some light shade. Although we beekeepers keep bees at ground level for our convenience, feral bees always seek a home 10'-12' above the ground. Bait hives should be in place a couple of weeks prior to swarm season. It is preferable to have bait hives nearby the apiary, like 50'-100' away. Some states, e.g., Maryland, will supply you with prepared chemical pheromone lures free of charge; and these placed inside your bait hive definitely help attract swarms. I hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:11:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Different species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, peterborst wrote in part: "Now I confess to being thoroughly confused. Didn't Warwick Kerr cross European bees and African bees, and didn't the progeny populate most of South and Central America? Or are you talking about the Cape Bees only? I can see that they might be a separate species, with strange habits unfamiliar to all other strains of Apis mellifera. But I am no taxonomist (wouldn't want to be)." One of the interesting things about the spread of the africanized honey bees in the new world has been their seeming to displace other honey bees throughout the tropical areas. The researchers continue to tell us that the bees even in the southern US are african with very little european genes mixed into the population except at the northern edge where hybridization is much more common. It appears that they have displaced european honey bees instead of mixing with them. Now this could be due to either total saturation by african drones due to very high feral populations or to some mechanism or mechanisms that prevent interbreeding at the population level. Maybe both are going on. I figured a few years back it was mainly due to the high feral populations the africans have and the resulting drone saturation. In light of more recent research that suggests that the populations may not interbreed successfully in the long term i.e. the hybrids tend to die out fairly quickly ! as well as evidence of selective mating it is starting to look like there are mechanisms of reproductive isolation at the population level. Dr Hoffmann also presented research on volatile pheromones that shows differences between the african and european bees that might help explain why it is so very difficult to requeen african colonies with european queens. This also suggests the bees might be different species. One also wonders about the cape problem in SA because the pheromones of scuts don't seem to control capensis workers which leads to the breakdown of the colony. That this also appears to be happening in AZ. Again raising the possibilty that we are actually looking at different species of honey bees rather than different races of the same species. I suggest we need to unravel this to better understand what is going on and figure out how to manage the impacts on beekeeping in the rest of North America. Guess we do need more research on those africanized bees. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:31:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Blane White [SMTP:Blane.White@STATE.MN.US] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 10:29 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Hello Blane and All, Blane wrote: Hold on there Mark. I was also at the meeting and the remarks were in = public - questions after her prepared talk and Dr Hoffman was = representing the Tuscon Lab. Thanks Blane for coming to my rescue. I have been told the question I = asked which was the first question asked after Dr. Hoffman finished her = talk is on the meeting ABF tape along with her response.=20 Blane wrote: Her talk was interesting and this was only a small part of it but she = was describing the difficulties they were having keeping European = colonies in an afticanized area. This could be an issue in the future = in pollination sets in California and so is very relevant research. The = taking over of european colonies by the africanized bees was very = interesting and very quickly brought to mind the cape bee issue since = the characters of the bees being described really did sound more cape = than scut i.e. dark intercasts and dark bees of african origin. I = really don't think they have tried to determine if it is cape bees or = scuts as they only say African vs European origin for the bees. Kerr = did import cape bees and in AZ the bees are in a more temperate climate = which could select for the cape traits but whatever the source I had the = same thoughts as Bob that she was describing cape bees not scuts which = is a little different twist on the issue. Bob wrote: Beekeepers have long hoped the cape bee would never reach the Americas. = When Dr. Orley Taylor was doing his research in Mexico on Africanized = bees I attended many of his talks. Dr. Taylor assured me the bees he was = studying were of Scut decent and other than constant swarming, = absconding and a BAD attitude he saw no signs of cape bee behavior. = Many beekeepers (including myself) saw the $50,000 per year grant to Dr. = Taylor as wasted research money. We teased Dr. Taylor (lovingly) about = spending most of his time in Mexico chasing butterflies( his first = love). Capensis may or may not be a serious problem to U.S. beekeeping. = Truthfully most researchers saw capensis as a big problem if ever = allowed to get established in commercial U.S beekeeping populations. Dr. = Shiminuki and I have discussed the problem at length. *Shim* saw small = hive beetle as a very small problem but always saw the cape bee as a = serious pest to U.S. beekeeping. Shim has been to South Africa to study = both first hand. Sadly I greatly missed talking to *Shim* and his wife = at the ABF convention. I was not alone in my thoughts. I believe = Savannah was the first convention I ever attended which *Shim* was not = at. Even though *Shim* and I did not always agree I still believe Dr. = shiminuki to be one of the sharpest researchers I ever met.=20 Blane wrote: An interesting subject and one where we need answers. Blane is as intense in the flesh as he is on Bee-L. Late in the = afternoon at the Apiary Inspectors of America meeting at the ABF = convention I got in over my head and Blane stepped forward to explain = what I was trying to in technical terms the group could understand. = Blane standing by the only beekeeper in the room impressed me because as = usual I was in deep water. We can all be proud of our bee inspectors as = they were very up on today's problems facing beekeeping.=20 I never intended to drag the Lusby's into the Capensis issue. I do = wonder why Dr. Calderone wants to spend half of a 1.8 million dollar = grant on Africanized bees . I wonder why the need today to set up a = documented strain of non Africanized bees from which bee breeders can = always get non Africanized stock. I also wonder if the USDA is planning = on restrictions of bees coming in and out of AHB areas with Almond = groves. 3,000 hives of bees never left the Rio Grande valley after AHB = was found. Could the same happen in California?. Could a Midwest = beekeeper which moved the bulk of his bees into Almonds yesterday (he = did) be told at the end of a few weeks AHB had been found in his hives = and he could not move his bees out. Has happened before. I believe the = USDA needs to be up front with us so we can plan accordingly. We pay = their wages and deserve to know what type of controls the USDA plans to = use in their *futile* attempts at stopping the spread of Africanized = bees into the Almond groves of California.=20 Big question: Is AHB the serious pest Dr. Calderone and Dr. Hoffman say or are we = overreacting as Dee Lusby and Allen have suggested? Surely after 16 = years of study in earnest by the USDA we know all there is to know about = AHB OR is there something we are not being told?=20 Half of a 1.8 million dollar grant is money which could be used in other = much needed areas of bee research. Up until Dr. Hoffman's talk I figured = we had spent all the money we would ever need to on AHB and now only = eliminate AHB when a hive gets aggressive. In Texas in areas of Ahb my = friends tell me a couple hives turn AHB every year and they are either = killed or split three ways and given European queens. No big deal! Would = someone from the USDA please post why they (in their opinion) feel we = need to spend half our research money on the AHB? If capensis is the = reason I understand. If we are talking about scuts then what's the = problem? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:12:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. There's something here that doesn't make a lot of sense, at least from the other side of the Atlantic. We're being told that AHB and EHB may not hybridise effectively, even that they may be separate species. That implies that there should be clear differences between bees that, after all, originate from several thousand miles apart. Yet we're also told that the two are 'difficult' to tell apart, that it's a specialist job to distinguish them. I've tried to find out exactly how you distinguish them morphometrically, and had no real success. These two data appear to be contradictory. How can bees originating from two distinct, unconnected populations, which have developed over, I would imagine, millions of years, without interbreeding, in very different environments, and which remain genetically distinct, be so hard to tell apart? If this hypothesis is correct, then they should be as easy to distinguish morphometrically as A.m. mellifera and A. m. ligustica. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Different Species? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >[Kerr] succeeded in bringing 62 queens of A. m. scutellata and *one* >of A. m. capensis alive to Piracicaba. Of these 48 queens from South >Africa and one from Tanganyika were successfully introduced. ... The >Africanized bees formed a population which displaced European bees >... -- Eva Crane, "The World History of Beekeeping", 1999 ------------------------------------------ >Whether or not Africanized honey bees are hybrids or essentially >unhybridized African honey bees is critical for developing >management strategies for beekeepers in Africanized areas to cope >with Africanized honey bees. If hybridization is to be used as a >management tool, it is important to understand if hybrid bees can >survive. One way to determine hybridization is to find if >Africanized honey bees have European honey bee mitochondria. Some >prior tests have suggested that they do not. > >More modern DNA tests, reported in this article, show conclusively >that many Africanized honey bees do have European honey bee >mitochondria. This supports using management schemes that rely on >producing hybrids as a way of mitigating the effects of >Africanization. Within the past 40 years, Africanized honey bees >spread from Brazil and now occupy most areas habitable by the >species Apis mellifera, for Argentina to the southwestern United >States. The primary genetic source for Africanized honey bees is >believed to be the sub-Saharan honey bee subspecies A. m. scutellata. > >Over 25% of the "African" mt-DNA found in the Africanized population >in Argentina are derived from non- A. m. scutellata sources. ------------------------------------------ >Twelve years after the arrival of Africanized honey bees to the >Yucatan peninsula of Mexico, there has been substantial gene flow >from Africanized queens into domestic populations of European bees, >and to a lesser extent from European queens into feral Africanized >populations. Among managed populations, Africanized mitotypes are >now at higher frequency than their European counterparts. There >appear to be no significant barriers to hybridization, but African >genotypes are clearly superior in this environment. These results >indicate that levels of hybridization will be dictated by >environment. In the United States, hybridization will tend to favor >European honey bees. > >Honey bees sampled at sites in Europe, Africa and South America were >analyzed using a mitochondrial DNA RFLP marker. These samples were >used to provide baseline information for a detailed analysis of the >process of Africanization of bees from the Neotropical Yucatan >peninsula of Mexico. Radical changes in mitotype frequencies were >found to have occurred in the 13 year period studied. Prior to the >arrival of Africanized bees, the original inhabitants of the Yucatan >peninsula appear to have been essentially of south eastern European >origin with a smaller proportion having north western European >ancestry. Three years after the migration of Africanized bees into >the area, only very low levels of maternal gene flow from >Africanized populations into the resident European populations had >occurred. > >By 1998 however, there was a sizable increase in the level of >Africanization of domestic populations (61%) with feral populations >having 87% of mitotypes classified as African- derived. The results >suggest that the early stages of Africanization did not involve a >rapid replacement of European with African mitotypes and that >earlier studies probably overestimated the prevalence of African >mitotypes. http://nps.ars.usda.gov/publications/ -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Hi All. > > There's something here that doesn't make a lot of sense, > at least from the other side of the Atlantic. We're being > told that AHB and EHB may not hybridise effectively, even > that they may be separate species. That implies that there > should be clear differences between bees that, after all, > originate from several thousand miles apart. Yet we're also > told that the two are 'difficult' to tell apart, that it's a > specialist job to distinguish them. I've tried to find out > exactly how you distinguish them morphometrically, and had no > real success. These two data appear to be contradictory. > I don't think so. If one were to scale a horse and a donkey down to the size of a honeybee, you may find that it would be a little difficult (but not impossible) to tell them apart by appearance. All that it takes is a small number of genetic differences that cause problems durring the reproductive process. I recall a study where fruit flies were isolated and after several generations could not reproduce with members from another group. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:19:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Robert and All, If this hypothesis is correct, then they should be as easy to = distinguish morphometrically as A.m. mellifera and A. m. ligustica. If you read the following sentence from pg. 36 of the Hive and the = Honey Bee (19920 you will see the one race which is the hardest to = separate by wing venation is capensis. "DuPraw(1965), according to Ruttner (1975) was UNABLE to delimt Apis = mellifera adansonii Latreille (1804) from Apis mellifera capensis = Eschholtz (1822) on the bases of wing characters. According to Paul Jackson (Texas state bee inspector) most Texas = Africanized bee ID was done by wing venation. I believe we should have = used other means to find those bees with capensis instead of scut genes. = As Blane pointed out the classification was either European or = Africanized and not Scutellata or capensis. I believe capensis has = slipped through the inspection net and most of the AHB in Arizona have = got a large portion of capensis genes( only my opinion based on the = description of these bees and their traits). Although Eva Crane previously quoted said only one capensis queen was = established all stories coming from Dr. Kerr during the time are = different. I have read all news reports published at the time and exact = numbers were never given. IN FACT ALL THE REPORTS PUBLISHED SAID ONLY = THAT ADANSONII QUEENS WERE RELEASED. All bees of SA were called = adansonii at the time. What we have been told for years was that more strains than scutellata = and capensis were brought in and established. We have also been told = that no signs of the cape bee (capensis) have ever been seen by = researchers monitoring the 300 mile per year march from Brazil. so the = capensis queens supposedly did not survive. If you refer back do Barry = Seargeant's post on Scut and capensis you will see these two strains are = nothing alike. In looks or behavior (Scut *Yellow* and capensis = *black*)BUT I believe it would take DNA to separate the scut influence = from the capensis influence now. IS CAPENSIS THE REAL SURVIVOR and the black AHB bee .of Arizona? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:54:29 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Different species In-Reply-To: <200201292200.g0TM0vi16368@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Blane White wrote: > One of the interesting things about the spread of the africanized honey > bees in the new world has been their seeming to displace other honey bees > throughout the tropical areas. The researchers continue to tell us that the > bees even in the southern US are african with very little european genes mixed > into the population except at the northern edge where hybridization is much > more common. It appears that they have displaced european honey bees instead > of mixing with them. Now this could be due to either t otal saturation by > african drones due to very high feral populations or to some mechanism or > mechanisms that prevent interbreeding at the population level. Maybe both are > going on. We have the same thing happening here in New Zealand. But with A.m Ligustica and A.m. Melifera. In some of our bush areas, populations of A.m.M revert to type even after years of flooding the area with A.m.L. Hybridisation does occur and turns up as a slightly darker yellow bee with a very vindictive side to its nature. Take away the pressure of managed Ligustica colonies and black A.m.m. is the result. One factor may be the drones of A.m.m are rumoured to fly at lower light and lower temperature. Whatever the mechnism, those managed hives that swarm in this area invariably throw darker, more agressive offspring. The eventual dominance of the A.m.m genes in this environment is not proof of a separate species. The definition of "not being able to maintain a viable population from the offspring of a cross between separate races" does not appear to be a repeatable test criterion. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:22:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Swarm decoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I have had good success with bait hives. I have always had a few spare empty hives in out apiaries and they have saved me a good deal of effort. I know many beekeepers claim that "their bees don't swarm", but I have never been that fortunate (or perhaps I am more honest about it). Many swarms in bait hives actually come from other peoples bees... It is not "automatic" that they are yours. I would sooner have a swarm land in a bait hive rather than lose it entirely. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:40:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Different species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all How about this for a possible scenario... If capensis bees (or capensis like bees) existed as natives in US (or very early introductions) would they not hybridise prefentially with the imported scuts of Kerr? Africanised bees only seems a problem in USA and South America, yet African genes have been introduced both deliberately and accidentally into British and other European bees and the Africanised behaviour does not develop. Having said that we have our share of "nasty" bees in Britain. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Different species Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Allen Dick writes: >I got to wondering about Dee's info at Barry's site since I >mentioned it recently. I see that it has evolved considerably and >is worth a read. [go to] http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/index.htm At this web site you will find: >1. Dark (brown/black) cold-weather bees exist naturally below 30 >degrees latitude where higher altitudes permit. >2. (Yellow) hot-weather bees exist naturally above 30 degrees >latitude where warm thermal areas permit. >3. Small caste races/strains of hot-weather (yellow) bees exist at >the Equator and large caste races/strains of cold-weather >(brown/black) bees exist as they approach the poles. I am not sure where this idea originated, since there are no citations, but it can easily be shown to be false. Generally, there were dark bees in Europe and yellow bees in Africa, but there are many exceptions. >The Italian bee (Apis mellifera ligustica) ... Workers and queen >have a conspicuous yellow color on the abdomen. They are very >adaptable to different environments. [Its native range is around >latitude 44-45 degrees, this bee was imported into Massachusetts in >the1860s, latitude 42 degrees] > >The Tellian bee (Apis mellifera intermissa) is native to most of the >coast of North Africa, from the Libya desert to the Atlantic coastal >belt. It is a black bee, which is easily alerted to sting. It seems >to be the only race that can live in the climatic extremes of this >region (latitude 30 degrees). These bees are unsuited to more normal >temperate zone conditions. > >The honeybees of Madagascar (latitude 20 degrees) are considered to >be indigenous; they are uniformly black. -- Eva Crane, Bees and >Beekeeping, 1990 -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:45:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Africanized and not Scutellata or capensis. I believe capensis has = >slipped through the inspection net and most of the AHB in Arizona have = >got a large portion of capensis genes( only my opinion based on the = >description of these bees and their traits). Bob- when I read the traits of these capensis bees I find they are on the gentle side. Now if you believe all that is said about the vicious AHBs in the southwest, one has to wonder about where the truth really is. Give us just one study that has been done to prove any of this capensis idea. We hear one person suggest this idea and you talk as if it is fact. i feel the usda labs will be in for a rough road if they think the scare tatic will work again on this african bee story. mark _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:00:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Different species In-Reply-To: <00ad01c1a9c7$5508a320$eb21e150@cushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 1/30/02 11:40 AM, Dave wrote: >How about this for a possible scenario... > >If capensis bees (or capensis like bees) existed as natives in US There is not one shred of evidence that honeybees are native to the US and a mountain to the contrary. In the Sonoran desert, just south of Arizona, stingless bees (Melipona) may have been kept for thousands of years. From GEARS (Tuscon, AZ) http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/na/bees.html : >Highly social bees in our region include the introduced honey bee and the >native large black and yellow bumblebees in the genus Bombus. ... Farther >south in Sonora, Mexico (e.g. near Alamos) are extremely social bees >living in colonies with many thousands of individuals. These are nests of >the so-called "stingless bees", the genera Melipona and Trigona. Within >Sonoran, indigenous peoples sometimes find these nests within hollow trees >then transport the hives back to their villages where they tend the >stingless bees and routinely harvest their honey and beeswax. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:00:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mark and All, I am going to try and walk you through the issue. You are close to = understanding the root of the issue. Mark wrote: when I read the traits of these capensis bees I find they are on the gentle side. You are exactly right! The problem for commercial beekeeping with these = bees is the fact as Dr. Hoffman pointed out in her talk that the = intercaste capensis workers enter hives of ALL other races and take over = the hive eliminating the other race. A problem talked about on Bee-L by = Barry Seargent in great detail. Please do not kill the messenger. I only = bring recent data from the Tucson Bee lab of the current problem with = bees in Arizona. Mark wrote: Now if you believe all that is said about the vicious AHBs in the southwest, one has to wonder about where the truth really is.=20 Most beekeepers in Texas laugh at all the aggressive AHB talk. They live = in areas of Aficanization with only a few problems. They are always on = the lookout for aggressive AHB but consider AHB a way of life. We can = not stop the AHB spread. We can eliminate aggressive AHB when found. I = believe the truth is like Dr. Hoffman says and we are looking at the = gentle cpaensis strain of AHB instead of (IN most cases) the aggressive = scutellata race.=20 Give us just one study that has been done to prove any of this capensis idea. Let us try to force the release of all data about the subject which the = Tucson Bee lab is sitting on. We hear one person suggest this idea and you talk as if it is fact. i = feel the usda labs will be in for a rough road if they think the scare tatic will work again on this african bee story. This is the place you are missing the point. Dr. Hoffman IS the head of = the USDA Tucson Bee Lab in charge of the Africanized bee research. Her = statement represents the labs views. I admit I raised the capensis issue = on Bee-L two years ago without a response from anyone. Those which = remember the post in which I said Scut is yellow and Capensis is black = and all beekeepers In Arizona are claiming the AHB they see are black,. = What gives! I said years ago about AHB aggressive hives. Eliminate the AHB = aggressive hives when found and quit spending precious research dollars = on a lost cause. Capensis however needs to be looked at differently. Aggressive behavior = is not the big issue Capensis can be aggressive at times but generally = they are considered gentile. The problem with capensis is destruction of = our existing lines of bees SMR, Italian, Carniolans Russians and caucs = to name a few. In the worse case scenario the Cape bee could be the only bee in parts = of the Southwest and California. Selective breeding of capensis is = impossible because of the intercaste laying worker. Hope I have = explained what the cape bee could mean to U.S. beekeeping. Thanks for = the post Mark. Sincerely, Bob Harrison _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: What IS the domestic African Honeybee? (Was: The Truth is Out The re) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm sorry I was not at ABF in Savannah to hear Dr. Hoffman's presentation first hand. The BEE-L reports of her presentation are leaving me somewhat befuddled. As near as I can determine, ALL of Arizona is Africanized, although some say it was Africanized long before the Africanized Bee got there via Brazil. Problem is, we don't know if it's scut or capensis or some hybrid or mutated bee, nor do we know if it came via Brazil, Louisiana, or inside a Cracker Jacks box. But I'm getting a clear picture here and it must be true because the moderators are letting all this stuff through! Seems to me that (in Bob's words) spending half of a $1.8 million grant looking more closely into the puzzle is money well spent. I caution, statements about how grant money should be utilized and speculation over the unknown nature of an issue are precisely why the PdDs avoid (even disdain) this list. Personally I have no idea how or how much money Dr. Calderone will spend on AHB research, I only read the Cornell press release. I have never heard Dr. Calderone address directly the AHB issue, and living in New York I have the opportunity to hear and speak with him more than most. Bob raises a frightening spectre when he wonders about the possibility that USDA will place restrictions on bees coming in and out of AHB areas with Almond groves. Hmmm. Will they? Won't they? Track record says they will, with no notice, and Hackenberg will sneak his bees out at 3AM in the morning. BUT, seems like the possibility of such happening is good reason for research to figure out what IS the domestic African Honeybee. > Surely after 16 years of study in earnest by the USDA we know > all there is to know about AHB OR is there something we are > not being told? There is a possibility that what we aren't being told is that after 16 years of study in earnest by the USDA they are forced to say that they've come to realize that the conclusions they've made in the 16 years of study may have been wrong, but they've reached a better understanding of the nature of the issue. Years of asking questions have not resulted in answers, just better questions! > In Texas in areas of Ahb my friends tell me > a couple hives turn AHB every year and they are either killed > or split three ways and given European queens. But I thought AHB hives won't accept European queens. Are your friend's hives really AHB or is somethiiing else going on? Perhaps your friend's assumptions are incorrect. Maybe small AHB populations are more accepting of European queens than larger populations. I don't know. But I caution about drawnig positive conclusion from speculative input. > Would someone from the USDA please post why they (in their > opinion) feel we need to spend half our research money on the > AHB? I doubt when challanged thusly any will respond. > If capensis is the reason I understand. If we are > talking about scuts then what's the problem? Seems reason enough to examine more closely. Aaron Morris - thinking Bob is arguing with himself. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:49:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: What IS the domestic African Honeybee? (Was: The Truth isOut The re) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Aaron wrote in part: "Bob raises a frightening spectre when he wonders about the possibility that USDA will place restrictions on bees coming in and out of AHB areas with Almond groves. Hmmm. Will they? Won't they? Track record says they will, with no notice, and Hackenberg will sneak his bees out at 3AM in the morning. BUT, seems like the possibility of such happening is good reason for research to figure out what IS the domestic African Honeybee." What record Aaron? The USDA has very quickly dropped every quarantine they ever put in place on movement of honey bees within the US. The record says they will not quarantine bees in CA but dump the issue on the states. The only AHB quarantine in the US is a TX state quarantine not a federal one. So Mr Hackenberg won't have to leave at 3AM but might have to arrive in PA about that time. :) If there is a major problem with the bees moving north into California and those bees get into the almond groves, we will start seeing the problem nearly nation wide within a few months. Hopefully, this won't happen. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:57:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Comments: cc: Sen John McCain , Dr Gloria Hoffman In-Reply-To: <200201301614.g0UGEji22921@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Mark and Bob have been writing: Give us just one study that has been done to prove any of this capensis idea. Let us try to force the release of all data about the subject which the Tucson Bee lab is sitting on. We hear one person suggest this idea and you talk as if it is fact. i feel the usda labs will be in for a rough road if they think the scare tatic will work again on this african bee story. This is the place you are missing the point. Dr. Hoffman IS the head of the USDA Tucson Bee Lab in charge of the Africanized bee research. Her statement represents the labs views. Reply: Okay, This tread has expanded from Allen Dick giving a report to an exchange of data Mr Bob Harrison is expressing his views on from what he heard in a presentation given by Dr Hoffman at the ABF meeting in Ga concerning the state of honeybees kept in Arizona. Therefore before this goes any further, request therefore a FORMAL SHOW CAUSE concerning ACTUAL Capensis bees being in Arizona and especially S. Arizona, not limited to but to include the following information: 1. Where, when and how by actual sampling this data was first accomplished. 2. How were the samples processed to reach this conclusion. 3. Who did the back-up analysis as to where, when and how (see #1 above). 4. How did the sampling prove it was an *AHB* side of so-called africanization and not the *European* side of africanization as each mating and sub-family is seperate. 5. What proof is shown that capensis *traits* in this instance is a bad thing and not an actual good thing to have, especially in lieu of the fact that commercial beekeepers are already using same for well over more than one decade. 6. What proof is show that capensis *traits* cannot be bred in conjunction with other traits of the honeybee in commercial management. So far, all I have read is opinion and reporting of a presentation made at a national meeting of the ABF. No meetings have been held nor presentations made to any known associations to me in Arizona concerning this subject matter and it's detriments. Dr Hoffman will and is being asked to formally present data at the next upcoming SABA (Southern Arizona Beekeepers Metting-representing all beekeepers in Southern Arizona in a formal show cause request.) I am glad that Bob Harrison has brought this information to our attention. He is to be applauded for his detail in reporting on this matter and his own personal views on the matter. However, now what is needed is proof, if any. Sincerely submitted, with copies duly forwarded to those concerned. Regards, Dee A. Lusby, President Southern Arizona Beekeepers Associaton Tucson, Arizona __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:13:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Fellow Beekeepers, This has been a fascinating discussion. Just a few comments. Hybridizing of Brazilian/African/European bees over the years means their genes are thoroughly mixed. The discreet Cape bee has not been imported into Arizona. A hybrid, maybe. Thelytoky does not mean the Cape bee with all its characteristics is overtaking Tucson. Thelytoky (the ability of a worker to lay fertile uninseminated eggs) is only advantageous to a colony with the death of a queen, with no emergency cells available. If thelytoky were a raging success, there would be few real queens in the social bee world, and lots of laying workers. Or just solitary bee species. An interesting reference to the Cape bee problem is found at the web site for Rupert's Honey, www.rupertshoney.co.za/rh/ . Read under "Rupert's Honey in the Press". They contend that Cape bees that have drifted into a hive to not "take over" as long as queen pheromone is strong, particularly as bees cluster at night in the cold. If a cluster forms away from the queen, her pheromones do not influence the isolated cluster. In this condition, a "drifter" Cape bee will develop active ovaries and thelytoky will ensue. The take-home message for me if I were in S.Africa, is "don't over-ventilate". "Don't separate brood in the hive". Don't allow conditions that tend to make clusters isolated from the queen. For those of you working with black bees in southern Arizona, you can do an experiment to comfort us worrywarts. Take some sealed brood, and move the frame above the queen separator. An isolated cluster will form. The thelytoky-prone workers may start egg production. Check and see if there are eggs and new brood above the queen separator. This will prove thelytoky in the presence of a queen. That could be bad news to breeders. If thelytoky is a real threat, the social order of the hive will break down resulting in the failure of the colony. This is a simple experiment, and it will reveal the Truth that is Out There. Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:24:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. A British beekeeper named John Hewitt imported some 'Punic' bees from Tunisia in the late 19th Century, around 1890 as far as I can make out. ROB Manley gives 1892, but isn't certain, and as this was the year Hewitt published his (first) discovery of thelytoky in these bees, one has to allow him time to find it. It's also reported that the hives would tolerate multiple virgins. The bees are reported as having been 'small black, spiteful, and with the curious habit of biting as well as stinging'. Hewitt wasn't an altogether reliable witness; apparently he over-hyped his 'Punic' queens to the point of claiming them as 'proof against foul brood', and started a short-lived bee magazine for the purpose of carrying on a feud with the editors of the British Bee Journal. It's difficult to see why he would lie about the laying workers, however, and the other points are confirmed by ROB Manley. A man named Frank Benton also imported 'Punic' bees to the States at around the same time, though I'm not sure where he was (wouldn't be Arizona, I suppose?) I assume that Tunisian bees would be A.m. intermissa. If thelytoky and multiple queens are found in bees from both ends of Africa, that suggests that these characteristics are probably more widespread than commonly realised. What I haven't seen is incontrovertible evidence of thelytoky in native European bees, though it may be out there somewhere. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:34:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201301614.g0UGE1i22900@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Could someone explain the mechanisms by which the intercaste workers replace the EHB queen. I realize that these intercastes confuse the hive with a pheromone like the queen pheromone, do they also lay viable eggs? What percentage of the eggs are worker/drone? Is this also a case where the intercaste lays worker eggs but she (or do you say it) hasn't been fertilized? Are they always accepted as the "new queen" or do they just fight better? What about the intercaste herself, how did she develop? Just asking .. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:22:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: What IS the domestic African Honeybee? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have just had a phone conversation with someone who attended Dr. Hoffman's talk in California. The info that I got was that there may be a misunderstanding. It may not be that the African bee in US has capensis genes, but that that they exhibit similar traits. This ability of workers to raise queens from worker eggs is not restricted to capensis at all but has been observed even in European bees, and other insects. Probably the discovery of this trait is due to the intense scrutiny that the bees have been subjected to here in the US. Further, it came up in our conversation that this trait could probably be developed in any line of bees, if that were desired. Additional background info: >Nest Defense Behavior in Colonies from Crosses Between Africanized and >European Honey Bees >Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, Anita Collins, Joseph H. Martin, Justin 0. >Schmidt, and Hayward G. Spangler excerpts: >The most evident behavioral difference between European honey bees (Apis >mellifera L.) (EHB) and Africanized honey bees (A. mellifera scutellata) >(AHB) is colony defensive behavior (Stort, 1975; Collins and Kubasek, >1982; Collins et al., 1982). Unlike EHB colonies, which often mount low or >moderate responses to intruders, the response of AHB colonies to >disturbance is usually extreme. It is not uncommon for hundreds or even >thousands of worker bees to attack a perceived intruder when an AHB colony >is disturbed. > >Two AHB colonies captured in swarm traps (Schmidt and Thoenes, 1990) in >Tucson, AZ, in 1994 were used as the AHB parent colonies (hereafter >referred to as AHB-I and AHB-2). Honey bees in the United States are >characterized as Africanized based upon morphometric analysis (Rinderer et >al., 1993). The AHB-I and AHB-2 parent colonies used in this study each >had a probability of Afficanization of 1.0. [100%] Mitochondrial DNA >(mtDNA) analyses were conducted to determine the matfiline of the parent >AHB colonies (Smith, 1988; Sheppard et al., 1991). Workers from AHB-1 and >AHB-2 exhibited the EcoRl mtDNA haplotype common in most African races, >including Apis mellifera scutellata (Smith, 1988). > >The inheritance of defensive behavior in honey bees has been the subject >of numerous studies (Collins et al., 1984, 1987, 1988; Guzman- Novoa and >Page, 1993, 1994). Our findings were similar to these reports in which >most of the workers responding to colony disturbances were AHB hybrids >(GuzmanNovoa and Page, 1994). This occurred even when a small number of >AHB workers drifted to another colony as in the case of EHB-1. The most >defensive colonies in our study were those with AHB patrilines, yet the >reciprocal cross created the least defensive colonies. These results >support the hypothesis that queen genotype has little effect on colony >defensive behavior (Guzman-Novoa and Page, 1993). Our data also indicate >that defensive behavior is a genetically dominant trait that might also be >influenced by a paternal factor (Guzman-Novoa and Page, 1994). http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/publ/defense.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: What IS the domestic African Honeybee? (Was: The Truth is out There) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > What record Aaron? This was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the quarantine to contain Varroa in Florida. Going back a few years. Aaron Morris - thinking I should keep fingers in pockets when tongue's in cheek. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:11:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth (Frank Benton) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > > A man named Frank Benton also imported 'Punic' bees to the States > at around the same time, though I'm not sure where he was (wouldn't be > Arizona, I suppose?) > > I assume that Tunisian bees would be A.m. intermissa. Frank Benton's story is fascinating reading, if you can find some of the historical accounts that have popped up at intervals. He left USDA in about 1906, and supposedly his last report (of his field studies in "French Indochina" and the possibility of importing Apis cerana to the U.S.) is missing or was never filed. Over the preceeding 15-20 years, he travelled the mid-east, Meditereanean, North Africa, etc., looking for bees, rearing queens, and sending them back to the eastern U.S. for testing and distribution to beekeepers. Along the way, I believe he invented the Benton (three-hole) shipping cage we see so often. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:05:56 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Culliney Subject: Thelytoky in European honey bee races MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mackensen (Journal of Economic Entomology 36(3): 465-467; 1943) found virgin Italian and Caucasian queens to produce a small percentage (probably no more than 1%) of female offspring (i.e., workers). He conceded, however, the possibility that the queens tested may have contained "some African blood" (e.g., from Egyptian and Punic races) as bees of African as well as Middle Eastern origin had been introduced into the U.S. during the 1800s. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Brenchley" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:24 AM Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There > I assume that Tunisian bees would be A.m. intermissa. If thelytoky and > multiple queens are found in bees from both ends of Africa, that suggests > that these characteristics are probably more widespread than commonly > realised. What I haven't seen is incontrovertible evidence of thelytoky in > native European bees, though it may be out there somewhere. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:12:31 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Queen Quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to everybody! Following the debate on the possibilities in extent of AHB influence into A.m.m. gene pool. Would it not be a possibility that problems with Queen quality as widely commented on by many beekeepers may be related to "Capensis" influence being wider in distribution than thought of at present? - (at least in US.) Realising that cause of Queen supersedure is difficult to control in a precise manner. Queens appear to be replaced in a colony when age of former should not come into the equation. Sorry dear Moderator: Falling foul of the rumour regulations! - it has been mentioned in the French beekeeping fraternity that Africanised material is present in bee stocks in the south of France. Official report or recognition being absent due to fear of causing public concern and stirring up a nest of "Guepes" Just waiting for the double "glazed" beesuits to appear in our catalogues! Peter Indre France ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Swarm decoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't speak about setting up hives especially to attract swarms, but I have had them enter hives that happened to be 'open.' Had a swarm come right into my garage once, where I had some equipment I was working on. Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:53:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201301927.g0UJR8i04993@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Kyle wrote: For those of you working with black bees in southern Arizona, you can do an experiment to comfort us worrywarts. Take some sealed brood, and move the frame above the queen separator. An isolated cluster will form. The thelytoky-prone workers may start egg production. Check and see if there are eggs and new brood above the queen separator. This will prove thelytoky in the presence of a queen. That could be bad news to breeders. If thelytoky is a real threat, the social order of the hive will break down resulting in the failure of the colony. This is a simple experiment, and it will reveal the Truth that is Out There. Reply: Hi Kyle. Will go you better then that. Take colonies after the fall solstice and split the strong some with division screens and some with division boards and some with excluders, piggyback style. Then see how many raise queens with most all drones gone. Then go back and check results and see if hives collapse and/or can be reunited in the spring and go on with business as normal. We did and this is how this whole thing started in the mid-1980s, amongst other things. Out of season breeding to beat AHBs before they got here, building spheres of influence of good dark European bees of another color so we wouldn't be confused with our stock, and also make our stock darker for better winter carryover and disease control. We then asked to have our stock identified and no one could do so the same or explain all the different sizes of combs in all of our colonies. Well things started happening following that, a contract with the USDA, and it hasn't stopped since. Regards, Dee A. lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:12:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201301927.g0UJRvi05059@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Robert Brenchley wrote: I assume that Tunisian bees would be A.m. intermissa. If thelytoky and multiple queens are found in bees from both ends of Africa, that suggests that these characteristics are probably more widespread than commonly realised. What I haven't seen is incontrovertible evidence of thelytoky in native European bees, though it may be out there somewhere Reply: Robert, Benton brought the Tunisans bees into the area of the Northeastern United States. As for thelytoky in native European bees, Mackensen showed that european bees in the United States of 3-banded Italian showed about 9% thelytoky and Caucasian showed about 23% thelytoky. We know that we showed about 57% with our small black bees in the late 1980s when looked at and tested. Also at that time Dr Koeniger said our bees by morphametrics were a caucasian/carnolian mix bee with limited Italian. Interestingly caucasian/carnolian mix is similar to primosky bees (russian) now isn't it? Also to add Robert. If Tunisian bees and caucasian bees at the north end of Africa show the trait and the cape bees at the southern end of Africa show the trait, then what are the odds for Monticola in the middle of Africa also showing the trait if looked for? and has it been looked for in them also? Just thinking! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:32:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201301940.g0UJeOi05930@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Dave Hamilton wrote: Could someone explain the mechanisms by which the intercaste workers replace the EHB queen. I realize that these intercastes confuse the hive with a pheromone like the queen pheromone, do they also lay viable eggs? What percentage of the eggs are worker/drone? Is this also case wherethe intercaste lays worker eggs but she (or do you say it) hasn't been fertilized? Are they always accepted as the "new queen" or do they just fight better? What about the intercaste herself, how did she develop? Reply: You have two scenarios pictured above in your request Dave, so let me try to seperate and explain as best I can from over 17 years of working with this. By the way I will be talking at the Alabama State Beekeepers meeting on 21-22 Sept 2002 on this subject and bringing video tapes I took in the 1980s to the meeting to show what thelytoky looks like with workers fighting for dominance and workers laying workerbee eggs. My dear friend Bill Gafford invited Ed and me down there for the 105th Anniv meeting. But to get back to your request. Do not confuse small groups of workers coming into a colony as a take over, for this rarely happens in the real world to a good queen-right colony. Bees, including drones, workers, and small hand-size swarms do however go into small queenless colonies and failing old queen colonies of lesser strength. This happens in early spring and late fall as a natural absorbtion and coming together that allows for continuation of species. Here the small hand-sized swarms merely take over queenless or soon to be queenless colonies and breath new life back into them. The same with beekeepers seeing hopelessly small queenless colonies, all of a sudden produce a queen cell and brood begins again, because we all know that they stole an egg!!!!!:>) actually probably a good worker that drifted in. The main thng here is the old queen must be gone or badly failing with NO phermone for this to occur. Actual thelytoky as I have seen it and filmed it is different. It is the scenario of when a queen goes out to mate and gets lost on her mating flight or eaten by a bird, etc. Then there is nothing to carry on the hive for continuance. Normally during the main season, there is no problem, for there is enough brood left to raise another queen. It does become a problem though if the season is early and coming on with sporadic weather like mid-winter start-up, and/or at the end of the active season when broodrearing is shutting down. When a colony then becomes queenless, due to loss of virgin queen on mating flight (could also be squashed queen by the way by careless beekeeper, not that accidents don't happen in the spring or fall on hive checks for feed), first the colony becomes confused sort of and workers are scattered all over the frames of the colony, as if looking to find the lost queen. You hear the distinctive cries of queenlessness when the colony is disturbed or opened. Then within 4-7 days the workers start what I call tete tete for dominance and in a way fighting with each other.Workers will be seen going at each other with thier mandibles and grasping each other and tugging as if to see who can pull the hardest. Also you will see more than one worker try to start laying eggs in cells, while at the same time workers will be seen pulling their nestmate sisters of of the cells in which they have inserted their abdomens, as if to say, I will not allow you to do so! After awhile, worker bees will be seen to play court to worker bees starting to show dominance characteristcs, just like playing court to a normal queen. When worker bees have acquired this status, you will see them strutting around just like queens and then going into queen cells just like queens and laying eggs, sitting there not for seconds, but for long minutes on end to lay just one egg, Sitting there with their little wings spread and so majestic, something to behold. It is not the workers that go in and out in seconds that are the thelytoky workers. It is the ones that sit for minutes on end that are like little birds with their wings on the outside of the cells that are the thelytoky queens. The pattern layed is sort of a buckshot pattern of a failing queen you see, but once seen you learn to recognize it. Also few drones are present in the colonies for the most part of a thelytoky hive, compared to an over abundance in those that don't have the trait to any great extent to produce results. Time sequence is about 4-7days from mating flight loss or loss of queen in fall (or all queen cells removed) for queenless state with scattered bees to start.I would estimate about two weeks for good laying thelytoky workers to appear. Normally the process would be completed with queen cell and new queen being reared within another week or so and new queens out and mated in about 4-5 weeks total average time. Hope this helps answers your questions Dave. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:25:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > >6.) Is this expression of thelytoky destructive like that of the cape bee > in > > >scutellata in South Africa, or a potential boon to US beekeepers? > > > The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees tolerate > multiple queens. Lusbys claim to smoke in virgins successfully and get > multi-queen hives as a result. > I'm not aware that thelytoky and multiple queen toleration are necessarily linked traits. Multiple queens from ahb swarms have been well known and described for some time, but the thelytoky link is a new one for me. As far as multiple queens, Steve Taber told me of an old beekeeper getting into a discussion at a bee club meeting about this, and showing up at the next meeting with an observation hive with seven queens on one comb, supposedly on the east coast in the 1950s-60s. Please educate me on this. - John Edwards, Vancouver, WA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:50:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > -- > I have tried to get a breakdown from the USDA as to what degree of = > africanization is necessary for a bee to be considered africanized. Bob, I would answer this question in a heartbeat, but (after 15 years in morphometrics) I don't understand it. I know Daly and Balling's 1978 paper is hard to get, but maybe reading it would cause you to rephrase the question. I stand ready to try to interpret the morphometrics. There is a percentage reading in the final computations - I believe anything over a tough standard of 95 percent probability is considered africanized by the program - maybe that's what you are referring to. > I = > have also tried to find out details about the Erickson/Hines project = > but only general information has been released. So far as I know, Lenard Hines is very open with the details, he has kept extremely detailed records, and two or more publications have come out of this project with him. It has never been a secret project. > I have also tried to find = > out if the USDA can tell a scut from a capensis. Surely a retired = > researcher from one of the bee labs or a apiary inspector can answer = > those questions? Well, hekkifiknow, Bob, and I spent 15 years on morphometrics!! Really, I don't think I ever read an article on capensis morphometrics, except for Ruttner's early works, and that was too complicated and inexact for standardization. Maybe Steve Sheppard would know - he was the brainy one. I think the capensis comments now are from the chromosome experts, and I never put lots of faith in those little smudges in the gels. > The USDA has been slamming doors in my face today. = > Hmmm. Privately I was told Dr. Hoffman is only a figure head and not = > directly involved with the research. Another USDA person indicated I was = > on the right trail but was afraid of his job if he spoke openly. A = > retired USDA said because he was now retired he could talk openly but = > when I asked the million dollar question he never emailed me back. Hmmm. > Maybe others will get better results. Well, I can't tell if any of these refer to me, but, for future reference, let me say that sometimes I don't check my email more than weekly. Being retired is keeping me busy. ;-)) - Ol' Gray John, Vancouver, WA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:08:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > Would = > someone from the USDA please post why they (in their opinion) feel we = > need to spend half our research money on the AHB? If capensis is the = > reason I understand. If we are talking about scuts then what's the = > problem? Bob, I'm afraid there is nobody in the USDA presently a member or reader of this list, unless as a secretive "lurker". I really tried to get USDA people interested, but most of them are smart enough not to stand in front of a mowing machine. Sad, but seen as truth by them. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:26:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth (and morphometrics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > > We're being told that AHB and EHB may not > hybridise effectively, even that they may be separate species. That implies > that there should be clear differences between bees that, after all, > originate from several thousand miles apart. Yet we're also told that the two > are 'difficult' to tell apart, that it's a specialist job to distinguish > them. I've tried to find out exactly how you distinguish them > morphometrically, and had no real success. These two data appear to be > contradictory. > Try reading Daly and Balling, 1978, (Proc. Kansas....... I forget the rest of the citation- sorry) > > How can bees originating from two distinct, unconnected populations, > which have developed over, I would imagine, millions of years, without > interbreeding, in very different environments, and which remain genetically > distinct, be so hard to tell apart? It is just as easy to separate wild dogs and hounds. It can be done with the proper measurements and weighted probabilities. All it requires is a large number of (verified, that's the trick) samples from different populations and latitudes, some measurement skills, and several mathematicians and computer programmers, and most subspecies of plants or animals can be separated reliably. Dr. Howell Daly's method, in it's two or three versions and database of over 2,000 10-bee samples, is still the only method which has a high probability of success. - John Edwards, former morphometricist and observer of bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:50:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth (release of data) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Give us > just one study that has been done to prove any of this capensis idea. > > Let us try to force the release of all data about the subject which the = > Tucson Bee lab is sitting on. > I suppose you could go work through the lab records as Dee and Ed Lusby did, but it would take a while. As far as pre-1990 bee samples, mine and Loper's are probably both still existing there in preservative. Somebody might suggest that they not be dumped, but maintained as a historical research collection. There is no way they could be collected again. - John Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:17:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Behind the curve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if some of my posts today were concerned with "old news". My e-mail hasn't been checked much lately - I'll try to do better. I do want to maintain my contacts with the bee community, and this newsgroup is one of the best I have ever found on any subject. - John Edwards, Vancouver, WA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:43:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Frank Benton and Cyprian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Along the way, I believe he invented the Benton (three-hole) shipping cage we see so often. I have a record of the Benton mailing cage being described in a beekeeping journal in Australia in March, 1889. There is also an account of an improvement by a queen breeder here in Australia. If the Frank Benton I have details for is the same person, it seems he went from the USA to Cyprus working with Cyprian bees. I have an account of Benton sending queen bees from Cyprus to Australia in 1886. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:57:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Punic bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With the discussion on Punic bees, just some details of their = introduction in Australia. There is a record of an import in 1892. There is an ad from one queen = breeder advertising "1 choice tested Italian queen, 1 young Carniolan = queen, 1 young Punic queen. A profitable trio. Carniolan and Punic = queens raised from the best imported stock and mated with Italian = drones..." The price was one guinea which would be A$2.10. Accounts say the race was black and sometimes compared to a caucasian. = There was debate as to whether this bee was suitable for beekeeping in = Australian. In 1904 a description of Punics was "Very good bees, savage, slow in = starting brood rearing, breed at the right time when no honey is being = gathered, and almost stop breeding when the honey starts and fill the = hives right full of honey; as soon as the honey flow stops they again = start rapid breeding. The bees are good white comb builders." This was = in Brisbane, Queensland which would be about 26 degrees south. For what it is worth. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:02:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dee Lusby writes: >As for thelytoky in native European bees, Mackensen showed that european >bees in the United States of 3-banded Italian showed about 9% thelytoky >and Caucasian showed about 23% thelytoky. 23% of what? Of all hives? Of queenless hives? Or of all workers? Or of laying workers? This is vague. Most bee researchers regard thelytoky as extremely rare and an aberration. If you are going to quote Otto Mackensen you should refer to the book or paper so people can read the text for themselves. My info says: "rarely, virgin queens of our bees may lay eggs that develop into females" (Mackensen 1943) -- from "Contemporary Queen Rearing" Laidlaw, 1979. "After a few weeks, 10% or so of the worker ovaries are capable of producing eggs in four to eight ovarioles that develop. These workers cannot mate, so all the eggs they produce are unfertilized and hence develop into males. Dewey Caron, "Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping", 1999 Also, you wrote: >[we] make our stock darker for better winter carryover and disease control. Where has it *ever* been shown that there is a connection between the color of bees and these other characteristics? I have pointed out that there are tropical bees that are jet black, and yellow bees that winter perfectly well at latitudes about 45 degrees. Can back your statements up with *any* independent study? Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fred Born Subject: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I left my a super full of honey on each of my hives for food while I had Bayer strips in. Question - now that the new honey flow season is coming up what should I do with the honey in these supers? Have about 15 +/- medium frames with capped honey. Also can the combs be used for honey which will be used for human consumption? Fred Citrus County ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:42:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Thelytoky in European honey bee races In-Reply-To: <200201311301.g0VD1Ri14475@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Thomas wrote: He conceded, however,the possibility that the queens tested may have contained "some African blood"(e.g., from Egyptian and Punic races) as bees of African as well as Middle Eastern origin had been introduced into the U.S. during the 1800s. Reply: Aaaah, Thomas, this is true but still unproven theory at this time, but what is now stated by you adds another expansion of those mentioned. We are now talking Egyptian bees, and caucasian are known to be bees of the Middle Eastern Origin, as Eur-Asia area I was taught as I grew up in school with geography, and again Punic races include the Tunisian bees. In Dr Mackensen's journal of Economic Entomology Vol 36, No 3 pages 465 and 466 is where I get Dr Mackensen's figures fo the percentage of virgin queens producing female offspring and also in the percentage of females produced by individual queens. Caucasian 23%, Italian 3-banded 9%, golden Italian queens 57%. Mackensen said in this paper that the one queen producing worker progeny under conditions that excluded ALL possibility of fertilization was a GOLDEN Italian. Now Mackensen also stated in his paper that it was estimated, however, that not more than 1 per cent of the eggs of any of the queens tested developed into workers. This is good his saying this, for this relates to the buckshot pattern we see in the field nowadays. But I am with Dr Mackensen in his saying then and seeing now that "There remains little doubt, then, that parthenogenetic females (thelytoky - Dee here) occur more comonly than has been heretofore believed, at least in the domestic strains in the United States" Mackensen also stated in this paper in his last sentense "However, the data here presented indicate that this characteristic is more widespread than has been commonly believed and suggest aht the many queens that have been reported to appear unexpectedly in hopelessly queenless colonies can best be explained as having arisen from eggs laid by laying workers." To this I now add in closing. Take a super and sit down and look at your bees during the active brooding year and analysize what you are seeing as beekeepers. Have you ever noticed a queen laying full bore up in a third brood super of unlimited broodnest size and then gone down to the bottom and found a few pockets of freshly laid eggs below? Question: Why would a queen laying full bore on a frame up in the third run down real fast and travel back and forth to lay but a few eggs? Dee Just thinking and pondering as most beekeepers loving bees do! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Frank Benton and Cyprian bees In-Reply-To: <200201311327.g0VDR0i15933@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Trevor wrote: If the Frank Benton I have details for is the same person, it seems he went from the USA to Cyprus working withCyprian bees. I have an account of Benton sending queen bees from Cyprus to Australia in 1886. Reply: Yes, Trevor he is the same person. And if he sent cyprus bees to Australia in 1886, not that other races probably havn't also been imported there over the years, then my question to you would be: Have you ever had the bees of Australia checked in study for thelytoky? Reqards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:26:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Punic bees In-Reply-To: <200201311328.g0VDS0i16012@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Trevor wrote: With the discussion on Punic bees, just some details of their introduction in Australia. There is a record of an import in 1892. There is an ad from one queen breeder advertising "1 choice tested Italian queen, 1 young Carniolan queen, 1 young Punic queen. A profitable trio. Carniolan and Punic queens raised from the best imported stock and mated with Italian drones..." The price was one guinea which would be A$2.10. Reply: Trevor, this is good you accounting the import of honey bees to Australia here. It seems you have had much basic race diversity imported. Trevor continued: Accounts say the race was black and sometimes compared to a caucasian. There was debate as to whether this bee was suitable for beekeeping in Australian. Reply: Take away man's names and all you have in common is small black bees, like small yellow bees and then big ones that transition into and out of various regions on earth, so I can see the comparison. A common thing is seems is that Tunisian (small black), Caucasian (small black) and Cape bees (small black) is small size. Kinda makes one wonder!!! Trevor continues: In 1904 a description of Punics was "Very good bees,savage, slow in starting brood rearing, breed at the right time when no honey is being = gathered, and almost stop breeding when the honey starts and fill the hives right full of honey; as soon as the honey flow stops they again start rapid breeding. The bees are good white comb builders." This was in Brisbane, Queensland which would be about 26 degrees south. For what it is worth. Reply: This is all worth a whole lot Trevor. Wow! you have cyprian bees with early noted thelytoky and tunisian bees also along with Italian. How lucky you are. Have your scientists ever checked for thelytoky in Australian bees or do they steal into other hives and sneak eggs when hopelessly queenless? Any odd traits you have ever seen your bees do? What a boon for research if you could ever get the money to study for a whole-bee breeding concept. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I left my a super full of honey on each of my hives for food > while I had Bayer strips in. What should I do > with the honey in these supers? > Have about 15 +/- medium frames with capped honey. > > Also can the combs be used for honey which will be used for human > consumption? You should consider those supers contaminated and they should never be used again for any applications that will involve human consumption. Period. There is no slicing it. You may get opinions that it's ok to use the supers, but not the honey, or the honey is ok for the bees but not humans, or let the bees rob out the supers and then it's ok to use the combs. Any such advise is contrary to label instructions which makes it clear that equipment coming in contact with strips should not come in contact with honey to be harvested for human consumption. Let the bees rob the honey: How can you assure that honey thus robbed will not end up in honey supers? Reuse the combs once the honey is robbed: The combs are contaminated with coumaphos! They are not fit for use for honey to be harvested for human consumption. Those 15 +/- supers are now bee equipment, not harvesting supers. Well geez Aaron, you're being pretty hard assed on this one. How can you assure that honey in your bee equipment never ends up in your extracting equipment. Truth is, I can't. Makes you think twice about the chemican treadmill, doesn't it. Aaron Morris - thinking Aaron is arguing with himself! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:12:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I only = >bring recent data from the Tucson Bee lab of the current problem with = >bees in Arizona. Assumed problem by a lab. If indeed there was this problem, why haven't we heard about this a long time ago from the beekeepers in the southwest? They would be the ones on the front line seeing it firsthand and making it known in the industry that such a problem exists. Isn't it a bit odd that suddenly we are hearing about a whole state being effected by this bee or it's genes? Normally one would hear reports about this in the early stages. mark _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:17:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Thelytoky in European honey bee races In-Reply-To: <20020131154257.35694.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Quote: >In Dr Mackensen's journal of Economic Entomology Vol 36, No 3 pages 465 >and 466 is where I get Dr Mackensen's figures for the percentage of virgin >queens producing female offspring and also in the percentage of females >produced by individual queens. Caucasian 23%, Italian 3-banded 9%, golden >Italian queens 57%. Virgin queens? I thought we were talking about laying workers. Bob's original statement: >The most startling new information I heard came from Dr. Gloria Hoffman of >the Tucson Bee Lab. Dr. Hoffman said she considers Arizona now 100% >Africanized. The black Africanized bees of Arizona have been showing >capensis traits with intercasts with laying worker queens. Quote: >Now Mackensen also stated in his paper that it was estimated, however, >that not more than 1 per cent of the eggs of any of the queens tested >developed into workers. This is good his saying this, for this relates to >the buckshot pattern we see in the field nowadays. 99% drone brood is not buckshot pattern. How could a colony survive if the brood was 99% drones? Quote: >Mackensen also stated in this paper in his last sentense "However, the >data here presented indicate that this characteristic is more widespread >than has been commonly believed and suggest aht the many queens that have >been reported to appear unexpectedly in hopelessly queenless colonies can >best be explained as having arisen from eggs laid by laying workers." Right. He forced *virgin queens* to begin laying and the brood from them was 99% drone brood, which means occasionally a female egg turned up. Could have come from a laying worker. We are back to the beginning which is, we don't know. Mackensen also says: >Either the queen or the workers could have laid the eggs that developed >into most of the parthenogenetic workers; however, it was proved that the >queen laid a few of them [he describes his proof]. > >The data given in this paper give no proof that parthenogenetic females >occur in the Caucasian and Italian races in their native lands. The >strains tested could contain some African blood, since bees have been >imported from many parts of Europe, Africa, and Asia into the United >States. Between 1866 and 1880, many attempts were made, some successfully, >to introduce Cyprian, Syrian, Egyptian, and Punic bees. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:46:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > Well geez Aaron, you're being pretty hard assed on this one. How can you > assure that honey in your bee equipment never ends up in your extracting > equipment. Truth is, I can't. Makes you think twice about the chemican > treadmill, doesn't it. I agree with you 100% Aaron. Coumaphous is a dangerous chemical, one should NOT fool with it especially when human consumption is concerned. It can cause death as it cumulates. The user of such a chemical is effected even with proper protective gear. Then again it is my POV that honey from such hives treated with check mite shouldn't even be consumed at all. One CANNOT garantee that nectar hasn't been stored in brood combs then moved up later by the bees. Thus contaminating the honey and combs. Remember coumaphous is cumulative. As for the treadmill, I'm trying to get off. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:46:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: What about Apistan strips? In-Reply-To: <200201311617.g0VGHvi25507@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I did the same thing only with Apistan. Is it acceptable to feed whatever honey is leftover back to them and reuse the super in the summer, or do I need to replace the comb first? Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO --- Fred Born wrote: > I left my a super full of honey on each of my hives > for food while I had > Bayer strips in. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:05:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > Well geez Aaron, you're being pretty hard assed on this one. How can you > assure that honey in your bee equipment never ends up in your extracting > equipment. Truth is, I can't. Makes you think twice about the chemican > treadmill, doesn't it. > > Hi Aaron and All, Chemicals are like fly paper, you can pass it from hand to hand , but very hard to get rid f it. Best advice: don't take the trip , it may be a swamp you don't want to enter. Here, in Washington state, we have a problem with compost. Herbicides that are persistent. The clopyralid problem has 25,000 tons of compost siting in Spokane Wa. unable to go to market. It turns out that the level that it will hurt peas, beans, tomatoes sunflowers, ect. is 1 PPB. According to Dows literature , this is roughly 100 times lower than the tolerance on asparagus, 50,000 times lower than grasses. So the long term affects was not looked at during registration of the product.WSU has been doing a lot of research and found that the hay that was fed to cattle had the clopyapralid in it and was past through the urine and manure. Its in grass clippings also. This is a real problem and will hurt gardeners that think the bag they just bought will be good organic compost for there tomatoes. We do not have to look far to see what the real lack of knowledge in chemicals can do to us.Contaminated honey , is just that and should not be used for anything. I would not feed it to my bees. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries http;//css.wsu.edu/compost/compost.htm