From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:36:24 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,MILLION_USD,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SARE_FRAUD_X4,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B368A48D14 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXD010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0202A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 180996 Lines: 3687 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:29:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <200201311321.g0VDLSi15479@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L John Edwards (fwl absconding to north)replying to Allen Dick wrote: > The real payoff, if it is true, is that I'm told that such bees tolerate multiple queens. Lusbys claim to smoke in virgins successfully and get multi-queen hives as a result. Reply: What Allen says above is true. Most all our hives tolerate multiple queens. But we have always worked with this. It is an *old style* beekeeping practice for use when needed. Yes, we smoke in virgins successfully and quite often end up with both the old queen and new virgin both laying on the same frame. It is nothing hard. Even demonstrated to Dr Eric Erickson at the Tucson Bee Lab back in the 1980s after we talked about doing it and showed him with the labs observation hives how it worked. It's not a hard process to describe to other beekeepers to do and how it works, and it sure saves time and labor, and back driving expenses on fall and early spring requeening and the success rate is quite high. John Edwards responded: I'm not aware that thelytoky and multiple queen toleration are necessarily linked traits. Reply: This is probably something that needs to be really checked out and verified. Since I am not a union card member, it would be more practable for a real scientist to do this. All I can say is our bees have been proved to show thelytoky for well over a decade now and yes we do use methods that encompass multipe queens that our hives do tolerate. John then continued writing: Multiple queens from ahb swarms have been well known and described for some time, but the thelytoky link is a new one for me. Reply: Yes John, multiple queens from AHB swarms have been well know and described, but we are not talking small commando type swarms here that then leave. We are talking multiple queens staying and used within the same colony, as when used the *old way* for multiple queen system management. Now, before I go further, let me say, we do see absorption in both early spring and late fall with our colonies now that we are back onto a complete natural clean sustainable system of beekeeping again. We also purposefully do it in capturing swarms this absorbing, and in the act, multiple queens are tolerated with the swarms above the queen *includer* now rather then used as a queen *excluder* to build strong one deep nucs to start comb drawing with and obtian better winter-carry over. John continued: As far as multiple queens, Steve Taber told me of an old beekeeper getting into adiscussion at a bee club meeting about this, and showing up at the next meeting with an observation hive with seven queens on one comb, supposedly on the east coast in the 1950s-60s. Please educate me on this. Reply: This I would believe, knowing it is an old trick to show new comers how to keep bees and queens. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Thelytoky in the Cape Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In the Cape Bee (Apis mellifera capensis), queen replacement based on the eggs of laying workers appears to be rare. Prof. H. R. Hepburn writes about in his book "Honeybees of Africa"(1998). He studied 30 *unmanaged* colonies of Cape bees over a period of 4 years. In these colonies he found normal supersedure , from a queen's egg, in 25 cases. In 11 cases, supersedure was begun, only to be given up and the old queen was allowed to continue. Protracted polygyny (more than one queen) occurred in 5 cases with 1 of these having 3 queens for several months. In only 4 cases (7%) was a queen raised from a worker egg. And 3 of these colonies later absconded (abandoned the hive). Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:47:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Bee hunting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I spent a few hours last fall hunting (lining) bees. Havn't found a feral colony yet but I'm hooked on the sport. Perhaps this year I will find my first "wild" hive. Do any of you have experiences, stories, techniques you would like to share? Thanks John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:14:33 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: acetone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The odor was definitely that of acetone and not of acetic acid. I still have a sample. Now the question is whether there is a market for organically produced acetone. :) > Was the door acetone or acetic acid? Acetic acid is often produced by > bacterial action on ethanol, which is the product of fermentation of honey. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:36:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Swarm decoy In-Reply-To: <200201301227.g0UCRYi12892@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200201301227.g0UCRYi12892@listserv.albany.edu>, Dave Cushman writes >I would sooner have a swarm land in a bait hive rather than lose it >entirely. Me too - also it is easier than collecting it from someone's tree or house, especially when it is not your own and you do a (paid or free) service to remove swarms and colonies. It is amazing how much time is needed to deal with a swarm - especially if it comes out of planned apiary time - travel, chatting, setting up, chatting, travel, travel back, collecting, chatting, travel, re-siting etc. etc. If you are lucky, some travel and chatting time can be saved. None of this if they do all the removal themselves. I do try to place some bait hives near where they would be a nuisance and hope the farmer will tell me in good time. It is a useful diversion to receive a swarm on a flat roof at home with the entrance of the bait hive facing into my daughter's bedroom window. I have had a swarm move from a large size hive body to a small sized one about 4 feet off the ground. I have even had them move into a stack of old supers not very weather proof mostly filled with empty old frames waiting to be chopped up for firewood! This happened 3 times and I was embarrassed to work out much later that 2 of them were mine - coming from 2 of my own very well fed swarms in a nearby field, which swarmed again when they filled the new hives with brood and food! -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:42:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth (and morphometrics) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi John! Welcome back! I bet you could tell us a whole lot about "morphometrics", having measure bees all over Arizona. Instead, I have had to hit the books, but it has been interesting! quote: >CLONING (THELYTOKY): Is the holding constant of race/strain genetics from one generation to the next naturally or by artificially increasing the propensity of worker bees to lay viable brood, to raise queens as an alternate survival system to supplement normal queen mating in case the virgin queen is lost during the mating flight. Why this emphasis on cloning? The idea appears to be to maintain a unique stock of bees by avoiding the normal crossing with drones. This is not really possible, since while it is possible to raise a viable queen from an unfertilized egg -- for that queen to lay normally, she must be mated with multiple drones. And it is probably not even a good idea. Too closed a population leads to inbreeding, which leads to eggs that won't hatch -- witness the poor brood patterns that are seen in heavily inbred lines. Furthermore, thelytoky is most likely a vestigial anomaly (it occurs rarely in bees and ants) and an evolutionary reversal, leading backwards to non-social bees. "Good examples of the initial step in reverse social evolution, facultative worker thelytoky in the absence of the queen, include the Cape honey bee" from "Safer Without Sex, Thelytokous Parthenogenesis and Regulation of Reproduction in the Ant" by Klaus Shilder quote: >Permanent results can only be achieved by the use of naturally occurring races/strains of honeybees. Since a bee by any other name is still a bee, then beekeepers must use individual or combinations of large or small caste races/strains of hot (yellow) or cold-weather (brown/black) bees to accomplish this. The use of color as an identifying characteristic of honeybee "races" is a gross oversimplification. Ruttner, in 1988, described the range of colors which exists on a north to south continuum as well as high and low altitudes. (Yellow bees in the tropics and low altitudes , black bees in the temperate zones and mountains). However, he notes that there are too many exceptions to this even to be able to *generalize*. There are black races in the tropics and yellow in the north. Furthermore, instead of being an indicator of racial (morphometric) type, dark and light colorations may in fact *be caused* by temperature. In other words, the same type (monticolor, for example) may be yellow at low altitudes and dark at higher elevations. The two forms of monticolor are different *only* in coloration, no other characteristics. "When the pertinent literature on the genetic basis of colour is discussed and cross breeding results are given, there is never mention of controls for seasonal effects or temperature conditions during brood rearing. So ... the genetic basis of colour is somewhat tentative" from "Honeybees of Africa", by H. R. Hepburn (1998). Color can be affected by seasonal variations, and studies have shown, by artificially raising changing the temperature of the brood nest. Finally, dark color can be a dominant characteristic, hiding yellow color genes. (Kulinecevic, 1966, crossed lamarckii and sahariensis). Size, too, is highly misleading, since the same races in different locales exhibit different size and the size of the bees is affected by the size of comb. Interesting, the size of comb that bees build *is* an excellent indication of racial type or origin. The worker and drone cells of the African races are all distinctly smaller than those of Europe. The smaller cells indicate the separate populations and possible lineage of African and European races. "There is a final and remarkable aspect of cell size in African bees." When queenless, pure capensis bees built comb of *only* worker cells. European races build drone comb when queenless. In areas where scutellata and capensis hybridize, the bees produced a combination of worker and drone at a ration of 5 to 1. (from "Honeybees of Africa", by H. R. Hepburn) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:32:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Bee hunting Comments: To: jbachman@DWAVE.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Where I work (on a several hundred acre plot of cropland between Ottawa and a southern suburb) I have seen a very vigorous feral colony in the end of a very old Manitoba Maple branch that has, I have been told, been there for many years. Early this winter unfortunately something found it and pulled a lot of it out. In Kingston (Ontario) I saw several feral colonies living in tree holes along city streets. All colonies had comb built. A colleague at work keeps what amounts to feral bees - two colonies that he has never treated for anything. How he keeps them alive is a mystery, since he does very little actual bee work apart from supering and collecting the honey. Unfortunately, as these things go, a bear ripped out one this fall. Maybe he had some good genes in there. Also near Kingston I found a feral colony in a local recreational park that was up until 50 years ago a working farm. The colony was in the trunk of a very large maple that must have been one of the pr! ide trees of the farmyard. As for techniques - look up, as the friendly giant used to say, look way way up. I spot feral colonies by poking into every tree hole I can get to and staring at those I can't. It's a fun way to be late for class (university or otherwise), I've found. Old city trees are a good place to look, it seems. Forests around here are too young to have nice half-dead trees with good holes, unless they have old farm trees in them. Cheers, Fellow bee-spotter Martin >>> jbachman@DWAVE.NET 01/31/02 08:47PM >>> I spent a few hours last fall hunting (lining) bees. Havn't found a feral colony yet but I'm hooked on the sport. Perhaps this year I will find my first "wild" hive. Do any of you have experiences, stories, techniques you would like to share? Thanks John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: SHIPPING BEES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I received this mail from Dr. Nicholas Calderone with a suggestion to pass it on to BEE-L. It is a response from the USPS in regards to a request for current info on shipping bees. > Dear Nicholas, > > Thank you for visiting our website. > > The shipment of live animals and honeybees will be > processed in the same manner in which we have always > offered. The Postal Service has four major commercial > airlines it may use for the shipment of live animals. With > regards to honeybees, as stated in our Domestic Mail > Manual, Section C022.37, Bees are acceptable in the > continental surface mail when shipped under federal > and state regulations to ensure that they are free of > disease. Packages of honeybees must bear special > handling postage, except those sent at a First-Class Mail > rate. Only queen honeybees may be shipped via air > transportation. Each queen honeybee shipped via air > transportation may be accompanied by up to 8 attendant > honeybees. For additional assistance, please contact your > local Post Office and speak with someone in mailing > requirements department at 800-275-8777. > > We appreciate your concerns. > > Thank you, > > Internet Support > Address Management > USPS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:51:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee, John & all > John Edwards responded: > I'm not aware that thelytoky and multiple queen toleration > are necessarily linked traits. Multiple quees are commonplace in my region of the UK, but thelytoky is either not present or is in such low incedence that it is missed. I do not see a need for linkeage. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:44:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Shipping of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The message Aaron passed on is accurate as far as it goes. However, it does not begin to go far enough. At the recent ABF meeting in Savannah, a Post Office representative explained the new procedures/rules. I am just about 99% certain about what I am about to say, but it would not hurt to check with someone else who was there and, in any case, I suspect the February issues of the magazines will have a report. Shipping of queens will be as it has always been. Technically, the note from Nick is also correct. HOWEVER, the Post Office will no longer insure packages beyond Zone 4 of the shipper. Effectively this means that the purchaser will have to take the shipping risk...and he/she would be crazy to do so! The Post Office is adopting these new rules because at certain times, their losses ran up to 70%! The beekeeper's only hope, if they really want packages and live beyond Zone 4 is that the package suppliers get so desperate that they will assume the shipping risk. Based on the discussion in Savannah, I don't see any hope for that. The message is: 1. Buy local nucs if you can get them with queens produced by a professional queen breeder. These are far superior than any package...but BE SURE the queens were produced by a professional and not by happenstance. 2. If you can't get the above, buy packages trucked north by a supplier such as Betterbee, B & B, etc. Lloyd Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: 2001 FGMO Research report posted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear fellow beekeepers. Our research report for 2001 has been finalized and posted on the web. Those interested please visit www.beesource.com My apologies to those who have asked for these for not mailing them individually. Please do not hesitate to write with questions or comments. We are getting ready to start a more ambitious program this year. Your suggestions will be welcome. Sincerely. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:33:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Shipping of Bees In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi I just received a mailing from Wilbanks and in it they say new postal regs prohibit them from mailing packages beyond zone 4. Whether it's really an issue of insurance, I don't know, but they aren't doing it. They give a list of people to contact that are driving down, if people want to piggy back. According to WIlbanks: UPS will take them anywhere, but they don't insure and they will charge a lot for it. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:00:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I know of a commercial beekeeper who, while going to college in the upper midwest, worked for another outfit which ran multiple queens in the same broodnest. If additional brood was needed, additional queens, 2 or 3 would be added. He didn't pursue the methods or rational at that time but sure wishes he had. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:38:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee hunting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Bachman wrote: >I spent a few hours last fall hunting (lining) bees. Havn't found a feral >colony yet but I'm hooked on the sport. Perhaps this year I will find my >first "wild" hive. >Do any of you have experiences, stories, techniques you would like to share? The sport of bee tree hunting has a long history. In olden days, hunters used a "bee box" with different chambers (for example, see p. 863 in the December 2001 issue of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL). I believe Wyatt Mangum also published an article on the subject in the past year or so in the same journal, but I don't have time to look it up. My co-workers and I found the traditional techniques too inefficient for the task we faced and developed our own method, one that enabled us to find about 150 colonies. We published our thoughts in 1992 in an article, now readily available as item #12 on the following website: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:41:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: beecharmer1 Organization: Microsoft Corporation Subject: Re: Shipping of Bees I have worked for UPS for 18 years and I have never seen package bees come thru our system. Now queens are a different story. I brought an article to my supervisor that we would ship bees for companies, and he also said the same about NO shipment of bees in our system. V Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Borst To: Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Shipping of Bees > Hi > I just received a mailing from Wilbanks and in it they say new postal regs > prohibit them from mailing packages beyond zone 4. Whether it's really an > issue of insurance, I don't know, but they aren't doing it. They give a > list of people to contact that are driving down, if people want to piggy > back. According to WIlbanks: UPS will take them anywhere, but they don't > insure and they will charge a lot for it. > pb > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:31:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: supers left on during coumaphos treatment In-Reply-To: <200202010500.g11501i03367@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Aaron Morris wrote: > > > > > Well geez Aaron, you're being pretty hard assed on this one. How can you > > assure that honey in your bee equipment never ends up in your extracting > > equipment. Truth is, I can't. Makes you think twice about the chemican > > treadmill, doesn't it. I've got to ask a question. When I read the instructions for apistan and checkmite+ I see it says to remove all honey supers. Now, no matter how I look at that, I can't interpret it as anything other than REMOVE ALL HONEY SUPERS. To know that there are beekeepers out there that decide to ignore the instructions (which apparently is a violation of the law) and have supers now filled with contaminated honey makes me very very concerned. We all have a stake in keeping the reputation of honey as being pure. WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING??? LEAVING HONEY SUPERS ON IS NOT JUST ILLEGAL. IT'S DETRIMENTAL TO OUR FUTURE. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: More that one queen Is there a word for the condition of more than one laying queen? Would it be polyreginia? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 04:45:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: Shipping of Bees Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear fellow bee-L'ers. Goes to show the extent of the damage that the "killer bee" frenzy did to beekeeping in the United States. (This phenomenon is true only in the USA). Also, it demonstrate the great need that beekeepers, researchers, teachers, and any ony one that addresses the subject to desmitify the falsehood of "killer bees." We owe it to beekeeping in particular and to humanity in general. Peace. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 05:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: More that one queen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Tim Vaughan wrote: Hi. French and Spanish beekeepers practiced multiple queen hives but in separaate chambers. They called the system "condominiums" and multiple queens. I have not heard of term for the practice but I guess that if this thread continues one will soon be "coined" for it. Fun! Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:31:18 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: acetone In-Reply-To: <200202011208.g11C8Ni10428@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The odor was definitely that of acetone and not of acetic >acid. I still have a sample. >Now the question is whether there is a market for organically >produced acetone. :) An interesting mixed microbial liquid culture has been used on an industrial scale to produce a fuel enhancer consisting mainly of acetone & butanol. Such mini-breweries can be operated to criteria satisfying 'organic' principles. No market has yet been differentiated for such product, but surely could be cranked up, given enough expenditure on mercenary deceit (PR). After all, the fuel-improver ethanol has been successfully marketed from agricultural systems which absorb more energy as dieseline than they produce as ethanol. The much commoner fermentation of honey is by yeast to ethanol, and _Acetobacter_ will often get in (e.g. on fruit-flies' feet) to oxidise the ethanol thru to acetic acid. I'm not aware of any reason why the odd fermentation shouldn't occur to acetone. Some of these microbes exert a quasi-monopoly (by mechanisms largely unknown) e.g. once a good yeast brew gets going other microbes that may drift in are unable to proliferate. Perhaps some acetone-producing microbes show up in honey and, rarely, dominate. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:22:49 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: supers left on during coumaphos treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Les Roberts said: > When I read the instructions for apistan and checkmite+ I see it > says to remove all honey supers. Now, no matter how I look at > that, I can't interpret it as anything other than REMOVE ALL > HONEY SUPERS. The original question asked about the effects of treatment on stores left on hives for overwintering use. It was a very astute question, since the person asking certainly had "removed all honey supers", per instructions. The question boiled down to "Will following the Checkmite instructions protect your honey crop?" The answer is "no, not really". Aaron was merely pointing out the obvious. The logic is clear and compelling: a) Even when following the Checkmite instructions, one still is exposing brood chamber comb and stores to Checkmite. b) If some fraction of the stores in the brood chamber(s) are not consumed by spring (a certainty if one wishes to avoid colony starvation), what assurance does one have that the bees will not move some or all of that now contaminated honey up to the supers? None at all. But that's not all. There's more than a risk to honey. There is a much bigger hazard for the beekeeper: c) How should one handle the brood combs, frames, and woodenware that have been exposed to Checkmite? The EPA says: http://www.epa.gov/opppmsd1/PR_Notices/workerrisk.htm "Even with maximum feasible protective clothing and engineering controls, calculated risks for most OP [organophosphate] workers and handlers still exceed the Agency's level of concern. EPA believes that an across-the-board increase in risk mitigation measures is needed to protect occupational users of the OPs." So, there appears to be no "safe" method known for handling organophosphates. There is no known protective gear that will protect you from the tiny residue levels that have been proven to cause serious, long-term, chronic, and irreversible health problems. The mechanisms for cross contamination should be obvious to anyone who keeps bees. Given such depressing information, what is one to do? First, one must consider why "Section 18s" for Checkmite were requested and granted in the first place. Reports of Apistan resistance became commonplace. The mere number of reports was an effective rebuttal to pesticide manufacturer claims that the sole cause of resistance was misuse by beekeepers, but no one seemed to have picked up on this. Instead, all that we did was ratchet the arms race up another notch with a pesticide that is several orders of magnitude more dangerous than the last one. If one were to accept the accusations of the pesticide companies about "misuse" as true, this was akin to issuing hand grenades to a group that could not be trusted to use flyswatters safely. All of this forces one to wonder what happens after what comes next. "What comes next" is highly predictable - the appearance of widespread resistance to not only Apistan, but also Coumaphos. It should not be hard for anyone to see this, as it has been the normal course of events with all pesticides and pests, regardless of specifics. "What happens after" is unclear. One would hope that we will learn from our experiences, and realize that any pesticide is, at best, a stop-gap measure that creates a pesticide-resistant strain of pests as the "price" of use. So, how can one control varroa without creating resistance? There are approaches that are deadly to varroa, but non-toxic to both humans and bees. Unfortunately, the materials used in these approaches are cheap and readily available, and thus cannot generate profits for trans-national chemical and drug companies. As a result, they are not well-promoted, and have not enjoyed the research funding focused upon products that can generate profits. These are methods of killing varroa that exploit weaknesses in Varroa's physiology, rather than employing ever more toxic substances in brute-force attempts to poison them. There are at least two credible approaches that exploit the physiology of the varroa mite: 1) Food Grade Mineral Oil FGMO has been the subject of many derisive comments, but Dr. Pedro Rodriguez and his associates say that they have seen impressive results using nothing else: "untreated (control) colonies die within the same year... ...colonies in the same group treated with FGMO have survived for four years." By way of explanation, Dr. Rodriguez uses a low velocity, high volume, low temperature "fogging" apparatus to deploy a cloud of FGMO that is a (roughly) 15 micron mist. The good news is that the required device retails for under $70 US. The mechanism by which fogged FGMO kills varroa is explained thusly: "Mineral oil blocks the spiracles of the mites causing their death by asphyxia. While honey bees also breathe the oil, the size of their spiracles is much larger than that of the mites, thus it is possible to utilize mineral oil as an acaricide without harming the honey bees. Also the body of the mites is covered by pores which the mites utilize to take in moisture for their hydration. These pores are also blocked by mineral oil..." In short, the reported colony survival rate is better than what we have seen with pesticide strips. 2) There is also the work of Dr. Fakhimzadeh with powdered sugar, as he described in Summer 2000 and subsequent issues of ABJ. A dusting of 15 - 20 micron sized particles of powdered sugar clogs up the tarsal pads of varroa, making them loose their grip on bees, comb, whatever. A varroa mite that can't hang on is soon lying on its back below the screened bottom board. I've seen sugar-dusting work with my own eyes on my own colonies for multiple seasons. The results have been impressive. Since Dr. Rodriguez's method of "fogging a colony" takes only a tiny fraction of the time that it takes to sugar-dust, and sugar dusting was cutting into my leisure time, I will cease sugar dusting this summer, and try to learn FGMO fogging techniques. The good news is that both techniques can be used when honey supers are on the hive. One would want to treat when supers are on, since this is when varroa populations build up to dangerous levels. (Of course, treating with supers on is impossible when one uses pesticides.) That's right, I'm going to bet my bees, my honey crop, and my beekeeping revenue on the word of a small number of people. Why? Because these folks have no incentive whatsoever to make any of this stuff up. Unlike the chemical and drug companies, they will not make a dime off me, you, or anyone else who follows their approach. Heck, they likely won't even get a nice plaque for their efforts. To summarize: 1) An anecdotal report can be dismissed as "delusional". 2) A group of anecdotal reports can be dismissed as a "cult". 3) Consistent anecdotal reports are much harder to dismiss. 4) Pesticides have yet to be proven effective in beekeeping. 5) Science should not be confused with marketing, or visa-versa. ji ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:06:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: supers left on during coumaphos treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about the honey in the brood chambers? Will the bees eat all of it and NOT move any into the supers later? Can you guarantee this? Honey that is capped in one place is just like in another place that is capped. Honey that is capped will NOT get anything in the honey. Beekeepers that want Americans to buy American made honey should think about this when they get in their foreign pickup and drive to the bee yard. Lionel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:20:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stephen and gail mitchell Subject: multiple queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim, You were close. The term for multiple queens present in a colony is polygyny. Cheers, Steve Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:36:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: More that one queen In-Reply-To: <200202031726.g13HQXT23984@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Dr Rodriquez wrote: French and Spanish beekeepers praticed multiple queen hives but in separaate chambers. They called the system "condominiums" and multiple queens. Reply: We have never worked this way, nor known of others working this way in our area. We simply smoke in virgins to act like normal supercedure and get quite a few hives with mother/daughter mimicing scenarios, often times found laying on the same frames. Also we are known to combine weak colonies with laying queens and you end up the same way. Two laying queens in the same colony. Also with the main flow coming on you can combine queens and accompanying broodnests, (not even necessarily two) and have them all laying within the same colony in the same broodnest, now combined. What would terms be for these scenarios, for they are not hard to do and make up in the field in normal hivemanagement? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: More that one queen In-Reply-To: <200202022300.g12N0IT05885@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Is there a word for the condition of more than one laying queen? Would it >be polyreginia? Polygyny -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:49:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Shipping of Bees In-Reply-To: <2EAE2E49.44D2B4FF.023E1E12@netscape.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Dear fellow bee-L'ers. >Goes to show the extent of the damage that the "killer bee" frenzy >did to beekeeping in the United States. I think it has much more to do with post 9/11 restrictions on mail, the desire for more safety and security (which also causes delay) -- and the high mortality of bees shipped beyond zone 4. Shipped that far, they often run out of sirup. As far as insurance, we received a hundred or so packages from a shipper last year, via the Post Office. The were not insured by the PO. Rather, the shipper guaranteed live delivery, opting to replace any dead ones. This is a reasonable arrangement, provided the shipper doesn't get hit too many times. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:29:13 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: chromated copper arsenate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" TALKS BEGIN ON REMOVING WOOD WITH ARSENIC-BASED PESTICIDES FROM MARKET Wood decks, playground equipment and picnic tables treated with a preservative containing arsenic could be taken off the market soon. Talks under way between federal regulators and lumber industry officials focus on chromated copper arsenate, or CCA, a powerful pesticide used to protect lumber from decay and insect damage. Source: Associated Press http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/02/02012002/ap_lumber_46286.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:50:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: What are the Bee of the Americas? (Formerly: Pre-Columbian Bees in the Americas In-Reply-To: <200201282117.g0SLHNi19463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Wow!, Pb wrote about stingless bees in the Yucatan for proof of what was here, prior to for our various honeybee types of today. Wouldn't Abbe D. Francesco Saverio Clavigero be thrilled!!!!! He wrote there are at least six different kinds of bees in our new world way back in the mid 1700s. 1. The 1st is the same as the common bee of Europe, with which it agres, not only in size, shape and color, but also in its disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax. 2. The 2nd which differs from the 1st only in having no sting is the bee of Yucatan and Chiapa. 3. The 3rd species resembles in its form, the winged ants, but is smaller than the common bee, and without a sting. (Note - two stingless bees now. - Dee here). 4. The 4th species is a yellow bee, smaller than the common one, but like it, furnished with a sting. 5. The 5th is a small bee furnished with a sting, which constructs hives of an orbicular form, in subterranean cavities, and the honey is sour and somewhat bitter. 6. The 6th is the Tlalpiprolli, which is a black and yellow bee, of the size of the common bee, but has no sting (wow- 3 stingless bees - Dee here) Now a wasp called a Xicotli or Xicote, is a thick black wasp, with a yellow belly, which makes a very sweet honey, in holes made by it in walls., but though written about was listed seperate. So I guess he listed 6 bees and 1 wasp he saw. Now, if just the one stingless was in the Yucatan which is on the Mexican pennisula and not of the main continent of S. America or the main continent of N. America, how come we all just think stingless bees were here first????? and with the Mayans!!!! Peter, are you sure about just stingless bees? What about the Incas, the Aztecs, the mound people in the Southern USA back east and HOpi, Navajo, etc tribes of the Southwest, and tribes from up north???? or even the Western Coast of the N. America (wasn't there a land bridge supposed to be there? and of course all came across it, even the insects, with the exception of bees - for only stingless crossed, or where there others? Maybe a land mass plate shift between the Americas and/or Europe/Africa and only stingless where on our side.) Just what are the bees of the Americas???? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:48:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Clay wrote: > I agree with you 100% Aaron. Coumaphous is a dangerous chemical, one should > NOT fool with it especially when human consumption is concerned. It can > cause death as it cumulates. According to the EPA http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/coumaphos/summary.htm "Dietary Risks are low: Acute and chronic risks from food treated with coumaphos do not exceed the Agency¹s level of concern." Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:38:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Swarm decoy hives Comments: cc: joschmid@u.arizona.edu, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Has anyone had any luck setting up empty hive bodies to > attract swarms when they occur? Are there any better ways to do this? On the 29th of January, Aaron Morris provided some good input on that question. Later, others provided some more insight. James W. Cowan of Washington State has used "decoy hives," as he calls them, with good success. They are modelled much as described by Aaron. Jim and I have had a lively correspondence about their use for several years (though I have been too slow in responding all too often). Nearly 2000 years ago Columella in Spain provided a good description of how one could build a swarm hive, how big to make it, where to locate it (near where bees go to water), and what to rub inside (bruised lemon balm and wax flowers). Justin Schmidt and Steven Thoenes of the USDA lab in Tucson independently developed a similar swarm hive (known by them as a swarm trap) and came up with a packaged lure --- now available from bee supply houses (somewhat pricey). In our research on Santa Cruz Island, Robbin Thorp of the UC Davis campus and I, assisted by many volunteers, had dozens of swarms move into the Schmidt/Thoenes swarm hives that they had furnished for us. We found that those swarm hives were about as efficient at becoming occupied as were cavities that had formerly had colonies in them. Dr. Thorp and I published some of our results as abstracts in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. Those interested can read p. 870 in the December 1993 issue and p. 895 in the December 2001 issue of that magazine. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:48:58 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cherubini said: > According to the EPA > http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/coumaphos/summary.htm > "Dietary Risks are low: Acute and chronic risks from food > treated with coumaphos do not exceed the Agency's level of > concern." The quote above was taken so far out of context that it would embarrass an Enron executive. If you listen carefully, you can even hear Richard Nixon not only turning over, but doing summersaults in his grave in outrage. The document explains why the EPA is so sanguine about "dietary risks": "There are no registered uses of coumaphos on agricultural crops..." No wonder the EPA is not worried - they have not approved any uses on crops. But isn't honey a crop? One is forced to conclude that whoever wrote the document did not consider honey an "agricultural crop", or does not consider a Section 18 exemption a "registered use", or is unaware of recent forays by coumaphos into beekeeping. But read on (it is a short document)... "Drinking Water Risks are high: Acute and chronic risks from drinking water derived from surface water do not exceed the Agency's level of concern." Translation: Reservoirs are not threatened. But why is the bold heading say that "drinking water risks are high"? Read on... "Chronic risks from drinking water derived from ground water exceed the Agency's level of concern." Translation: Wells are threatened. Aquifers are threatened. Groundwater is threatened. So threatened that the EPA has no idea what to do about it. (Do recent prior concerns voiced on this list about landfill disposal of coumaphos make sense now?) The phrase "exceed the Agency's level of concern" is a bureaucratic term describing the sort of reaction expressed by the lead characters in 1950's Japanese monster movies after a troop of boy scouts, hundreds of policemen, four battalions of infantry, a brigade of tanks, several jet fighter wings, and a pair of nuclear weapons all fail to stop the monster. But that's not all... there's more... "Occupational Risks are high: Three out of nine worker exposure scenarios exceed the Agency's level of concern at the maximum level of protection feasible. These scenarios are: applying liquids with a high pressure hand wand at the application rate for cattle and horses and use rate of 1000 gallons/day, applying dusts with a shaker can at the rate for cattle/horses and swine bedding, and loading/applying dusts with a mechanical duster at the rate for cattle/horses and swine bedding." Translation: Current applications known to the EPA pose unacceptable risks to workers, even when those workers had "the maximum level of protection feasible". Recall that the EPA has not even looked at any beekeeping applications yet. They are letting the states do the best they can for beekeepers on budgets most often associated with school car washes and bake sales. "Aggregate Risk is of concern: Acute aggregate risk (food and drinking water) does not exceed the Agency's level of concern." Translation: "Acute", meaning short-term effects. The good news is that there is little danger of anyone dropping dead shortly after exposure to coumaphos. "Chronic aggregate risk (food and drinking water) may exceed the Agency's level of concern due to the contribution of estimated coumaphos concentrations in ground water based on modeling." Translation: "Chronic", meaning long-term impact. The bad news is that the long-term implications "may exceed the Agency's level of concern". Oh dear, there's that phrase again. Darn, it is so easy to satirize when such good material is tossed directly into our laps. This stuff nearly writes itself. I just wish the basic subject matter was not so serious. We are almost certain to take some casualties from this stuff. To quote Bogart, in "Casablanca": "...you'll regret it - maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon..." jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Cherubini wrote: > According to the EPA > http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/coumaphos/summary.htm > > "Dietary Risks are low: Acute and chronic risks from food > treated with coumaphos do not exceed the Agency¹s level of > concern." However one must ask how comfortable they are with the Agency's level of concern. I wonder why on one hand EPA is making an effort to remove ALL organophosphates from the environment while on the other hand EPA express a "level of concern". Asked many years ago on this list, "When is zero tolerance not ZERO tolerance?". Answered many years ago on the list, "When money is involved." Aaron Morris - thinking zero is ZERO! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <20020204025059.98356.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2/3/02 06:50 PM, you wrote: >Just what are the bees of the Americas???? I wrote: >In the continental United States scientists have found approximately 3,500 species of bees. The desert regions of northern Mexico and southern Arizona have the richest diversity of bees found anywhere in the world. Although there is no exact count, a bee scientist at the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center says there are between 1,000 and 1,200 species of bees within 100 miles of Tucson! If you are saying there were other bees besides the Meliponini, that's right. If you are saying that before the Spanish settlers arrived there were any varieties or even species of Apis mellifera, Apis cerana, or the rest, you are mistaken. As I said, there was a well developed beekeeping culture in America before the Europeans arrived. If Apis had been present they most certainly would have used it. People everywhere have exploited whatever bees they found for maybe a million years. The works on the subject show that Apis mellifera probably originated in Mesopotamia and split into the three main branches (North European, Mediterranean, and African varieties) *after* South America separated from Africa. These types were isolated from each other by geographic barriers for tens of thousands of years, hence they are very different, and although they are considered the same species (Apis mellifera) as Blane pointed out, it may be that the European and African types are enough different that they will have to be separated into two different species. The stingless bees like Melipona and Trigona exist on all continents so they probably arose at a time when all the land masses were connected. However, region with the most different species is tropical America, where they never had to compete with Apis mellifera until Warwick Kerr brought the tropical honey bee from Africa and everything changed. All of this is in any basic textbook on insects. If you are going to say that the *honey bee* Apis mellifera was here before the arrival of the European settlers, you have to say why you think so. There was mention of cave paintings earlier. Those cave paintings, where ever they are, could be depicting the Native Americans and one of the hundreds of species of "stingless" bees. (They do have vestigial (non-functional) stingers). Incidentally, I grew up in San Diego and I know that Southern California and perhaps Arizona as well, was at one time much more humid so the native bees could have lived quite comfortably throughout the region. Traditional beekeeping has been found in the Sonoran desert, not far from there. But these bees are far distant relations to any Apis honey bees. As a final note, about ten years ago, Erickson said that there *might* bee feral colonies of Apis mellifera iberica (the bee the Spanish brought with them) living in the mountains of the southwest. I wonder if any of these were ever found. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:43:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2/4/02 01:48 AM, you wrote: >or does not consider a Section 18 exemption a "registered use" This is true. It is unregistered, has no EPA registration number, section 18 is an emergency exemption. However, if used correctly and disposed of correctly, the risk of contamination is no higher than with other pesticides. Our food is heavily contaminated as it is. Of course, I am not justifying *that* and there are the thorny problems of accumulation and synergy. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Our food is heavily contaminated as it is. This sounds good but is not backed up by facts. Even Consumer Reports finds either no or little contamination of foods by pesticides. Were it true, it would be all over the news. If Cumophose is ever found in honey and the public is made aware of it forget the "natural" aspect of the goodness of honey. I think that Organo-phosphates have no place in our pesticide mix, mainly because of their hormonal impact on animals. We are playing with fire. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends I do not intend to debate the issue of pesticides at this time. I can supply volumes to anyone who is interested. Examples: >For the past 25 years, tens of millions of Americans in hundreds of cities and towns have been drinking tap water that is contaminated with low levels of insecticides, weed killers, and artificial fertilizer. They not only drink it, they also bathe and shower in it, thus inhaling small quantities of farm chemicals and absorbing them through the skin. Naturally, the problem is at its worst in agricultural areas of the country. > >The most common contaminants are carbamate insecticides (aldicarb and others), the triazine herbicides (atrazine and others) and nitrate nitrogen.[1] For years government scientists have tested each of these chemicals individually at low levels in laboratory animals -- searching mainly for signs of cancer -- and have declared each of them an "acceptable risk" at the levels typically found in groundwater. > >[1] Jack E. Barbash and Elizabeth A. Resek, PESTICIDES IN GROUND WATER (Chelsea, Michigan: Ann Arbor Press, 1996); Richard Wiles and others, TAP WATER BLUES (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1994); Brian A. Cohen and Richard Wiles, TOUGH TO SWALLOW (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1997); Environmental Working Group, POURING IT ON; NITRATE CONTAMINATION OF DRINKING WATER (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1996). See www.ewg.org. And: Gina M. Solomon and Lawrie Mott, TROUBLE ON THE FARM; GROWING UP WITH PESTICIDES IN AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITIES (New York: Natural Resources Defense Council, October, 1998). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:27:28 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Culliney Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There were populations of Apis mellifera of European descent present in South America long before Kerr brought over his colonies of African A. mellifera. Kerr's intention was to improve the breeding stock of the honey bees already present by crossing the local bees with bees better adapted to tropical conditions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Borst" To: Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 4:38 AM Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? However, region with the most different species is tropical America, where they never had to compete with Apis mellifera until Warwick Kerr brought the tropical honey bee from Africa and everything changed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <004b01c1ada9$99e3b580$8901920a@tculline> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >However, region with the most different species is tropical America, where >they never had to compete with Apis mellifera until Warwick Kerr brought the >tropical honey bee from Africa and everything changed. >There were populations of Apis mellifera of European descent present in >South America long before Kerr brought over his colonies of African A. >mellifera. Kerr's intention was to improve the breeding stock of the honey >bees already present by crossing the local bees with bees better adapted to >tropical conditions. Of course, the Europeans brought them (possibly as early as 1560) . My point was they were never any *competition* for the native bees, because they did so poorly in the tropics, being temperate climate bees. That is *why* Kerr brought scutellata to Brazil. He didn't know they would explode into this ecosystem as an invasive species. (I am letting him off easy here) And the hope has always been that they will do as poorly in the temperate regions as the European bees do in the tropics. We'll see. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:44:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Effect of Climate on Varroa Levels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings A new report in the American Bee Journal seems to indicate that climate may have a very important role to play in the levels of varroa infestation in honey bees. Africanized colonies from south Texas were compared to non-Aricanized bees from Louisiana. The AHB colonies were *not* significantly better at keeping varroa populations down, despite reports of them being able to do so in Mexico. Furthermore, they mention that AHB populations in Brazil had higher levels of infestation in cooler regions. The climate/weather connection has not been explored, but it should be kept in mind by those of us living and working in cool summer regions. What may be a viable approach in hot regions may not work for us. This may also account for rising and falling varroa levels as observed by many of us. pb see ABJ, February 2001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out In-Reply-To: <200202041516.g14FGIA14710@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That would explain the news reports that are out about every week on the excess pesticide residues found on produce from outside the US that has been imported. On average, about 3% at illegal levels, while some crops are much higher. And of course, the rest are not being said to be pesticide free, just at legal levels. And no measurements of the intrinsic pesticides from GMO style crops (although, I suppose, since bT is not targeted at humans, it must not really count). I don't think Consumer Reports would be my bible for evaluating pesticide contamination. K Oland -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell This sounds good but is not backed up by facts. Even Consumer Reports finds either no or little contamination of foods by pesticides. Were it true, it would be all over the news. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:05:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Varroa & early brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed dear listers, Maybe a silly question...In a cold climate there often is a time when the queen stops laying (probably also in arid climates). With Varroa waiting more then a month to reproduce, is there a higher infestation rate of the first brood? And could we take somehow advantage of this to catch and destroy mites? Or would that be too disruptive, encouraging disease (disrupting for our need to have early numbers up for pollination)? regards Lennard _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal - Free download Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The new February issue of the ISBA (Indiana State Beekeepers Association) Journal is available for download now at http://www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/i0202.zip For those who have never been a member, your first year's membership is free, simply by filling in the form and marking "free membership deal" on it. The ISBA Journal back issues are also available for downloading from http://www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/ More than just a newsletter of the state association, the ISBA Journal contains news and articles of interest to all beekeepers and has subscribers around the world. The locations of these files on our website recently changed as we had to zip all the files to preserve space. These new links work. ISBA Journal is looking for beekeeping photos for cover art, interesting articles, and letters and comments. Send for information to me, the editor at editor@HoosierBuzz.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:12:59 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Cherubini wrote: > According to the EPA > http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/coumaphos/summary.htm > > "Dietary Risks are low: Acute and chronic risks from food > treated with coumaphos do not exceed the Agency¼s level of > concern." I vividly recall visiting EPA HQ in the Nixon period and being told calmly by a senior staffer "you can set your level of concern high enough so it doesn't impact on current practice". I was startled at the candour (or as he would probably have put it, candor) of this man in disclosing to me a regulatory charade. The actual pollutants I was there to discuss with him were nothing like coumaphos (but nuclear industry byproducts); however, the principle - if that's the right word - is the same. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:28:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: Varroa & early brood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear Leonard and Bee-L'ers" I have seen brood (perhaps only as much as a 4-5 inch wide circle) both in the USA and in Central Spain, (it gets pretty cold here), in the center of the cluster. That is not enough to give any one reason to worry (except that it provides a continuous source for future genera- tions). The reason to worry comes from the fact that since the bees are pretty much stationary and that they do not groom themselves, the mites stick to them in wait for the "real" brood season to start so that they can start to "descend" on the new brood cells. Hence, the need to provide treatment as soon as necessary depending your geographical/weather conditions. We put on our last fresh emulsion soaked cords just before the winter sets in, so that there will be a fresh source of oil as soon as the bees become active and start to remove the cords. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:40:23 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: Varroa & early brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "We put on our last fresh emulsion soaked cords just before the winter sets in, so that there will be a fresh source of oil as soon as the bees become active and start to remove the cords." sorry I haven't seen this mentioned before just what is in the emulsion and what sort ot fibre are the cords made of . recipe please. and how do they work and how effective are they shaun cranfield new zealand slcranfield@xtra.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Our food is heavily contaminated as it is. I disagree. For example, here in California, over half the tonnage of dried fruit and nut crops we produce is exported to Japan, Europe and other affluent countries. These countries test our exports for pesticide residues and refuse them if they exceed certain strict limits. In addition, our own laboratories are constantly testing for pesticide residues. More importantly, what scientific evidence is there that trace amounts of synthetic pesticides and industrial chemicals in foods are something to fear and worry about? People are healthier and live longer in Okinawa, Japan than in any other developed country. Medical scientists attribute this to diet and lifestyle, not lack of exposure to trace amounts of synthetic pesticides and industrial chemicals (see excerpts from study below). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.stopgettingsick.com/templates/news_template.cfm/4100 "No country on earth has a longer life expectancy than Japan, and nowhere in Japan do people live longer than they do on sun-drenched Okinawa, a coral-ringed island just north of Taiwan." "Heart disease and strokes are rare. Cancer rates are low. It [Okinawa] was one of the bloodiest battlefields of World War II, and today is the poorest of all of Japan's provinces." "Still, Okinawa's health figures are impressive. According to the Health Ministry, the average life expectancy on Okinawa is 81.2 years _ 86 for women, 75 for men _ the highest in the world." "Okinawa also has an unusually high concentration of people 100 years or older. There are 34 for every 100,000 people. The equivalent figure for the United States is about 10 in 100,000." "Okinawans suffer 80 percent fewer heart attacks than North Americans, and are twice as likely to survive one if they do. Stroke, hormone-related cancers and dementia are rare." "Okinawans living in Brazil and elsewhere overseas have lower life expectancies, the authors note." "Of more importance, they say, is the Okinawan diet, which is very heavy on fruits, vegetables, fish and moderation. Another factor is the low level of stress felt by old people." Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:36:34 +1300 Reply-To: Steens Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steens Subject: Looking for... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm trying to locate a recently completed research paper comparing = thymol, formic acid and .......??? Research was done in South America. = Of particular interest, were the results from thymol. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:38:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out In-Reply-To: <200202050124.g151OMA12460@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course, the same article also said the reason for their longevity migh be the dried sea snake in the health food stores. No mention of pesticides, tho. Factors that ARE mentioned: genetics, diet (only eating till 80% full, lots of fix, fresh veggies and fruit), spirituality, lack of stress, and their poverty - that causes more physical excercise, leading to stronger bones. Since these same people living elsewhere (and Brazil is an interest choice for comparison) also live longer lives, perhaps genetics is one of the primary causes. Other studies of mainland Japanese show their mortality, cancer and heart attack rates change after moving to the US (next generation, showing the importance also of early diet and environment). -----Original Message----- From: Paul Cherubini People are healthier and live longer in Okinawa, Japan than in any other developed country. Medical scientists attribute this to diet and lifestyle, not lack of exposure to trace amounts of synthetic pesticides and industrial chemicals (see excerpts from study below). http://www.stopgettingsick.com/templates/news_template.cfm/4100 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:30:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > At 2/3/02 06:50 PM, you wrote: > >Just what are the bees of the Americas???? > > As a final note, about ten years ago, Erickson said that there *might* bee feral colonies of Apis mellifera iberica (the bee the Spanish brought with them) living in the mountains of the southwest. I wonder if any of these were ever found. Actually, that was my theory, and one of the reasons I took on "trying" to survey several million acres by myself. I'm glad at least one of my ideas got some exposure. And I'm sure I wasn't the first to think of the possibility, just the first to really try to look at the huge area of SW Arizona. ;-) - John Edwards, Vancouver, WA (now planning to find out if Bigfoot knows beekeeping) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:44:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst [SMTP:peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:40 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? Hello All, I have returned! We had the worse ice storm on record last Wednesday. = No power or phone till this evening.=20 >There were populations of Apis mellifera of European descent present in >South America long before Kerr brought over his colonies of African A. >mellifera. Kerr's intention was to improve the breeding stock of the = honey >bees already present by crossing the local bees with bees better = adapted to >tropical conditions.I Peter wrote: Of course, the Europeans brought them (possibly as early as 1560) . My = point was they were never any *competition* for the native bees, because = they did so poorly in the tropics, being temperate climate bees. That is = *why* Kerr brought scutellata to Brazil. He didn't know they would = explode into this ecosystem as an invasive species. (I am letting him = off easy here) Dr. Kerr was a brilliant researcher. He was the first to my knowledge = to succeed in shipping frozen drone semen. He was adept at all methods = of bee breeding and isolating genes. Many researchers at Baton Rouge = wanted Dr. Kerr to join the USDA. Public opinion kept Dr. kerr away. A = now famous but then little known Baton Rouge researcher was close friend = with Dr. Kerr and wanted to duplicate Kerrs research in Baton Rouge. He = did get started but while away on vacation the USDA killed all his = research bees. End of experiment. Only now can researchers really see = the depth of Kerrs research into genes and bee breeding. The world was = not ready for Dr. Kerr and his ideas in the 60's . Only today can I = understand most of Kerrs bee breeding ideas. Kerr carefully planted = *miss information* in my opinion about his research and his goals. Only = by my talking to friends and fellow researchers of Dr. Kerr of the time = period have I been able to put together a picture of Dr. Kerrs goals at = the time. I do believe as Peter says above that Dr. Kerr underestimated the = African Bees impact on the area. If Dr. Kerr would have done his = research in South Africa it is hard to imagine the steps forward bee = research might have taken. I agree the release in Brazil caused many = harms but will always believe Dr. Kerr was a brilliant bee researcher = and it is sad he will be known for the release instead of his bee = research. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Effect of Climate on Varroa Levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Furthermore, they mention that AHB populations in Brazil had higher levels of infestation in cooler regions. To add just a bit more to the post made by Peter Borst–here is a quote from the Morse/Flottum book: Honey Bee Pests Predators & Diseases (p. 298): “...the infestation level of bee colonies in a cool climate at an altitude of 1,400 meters was as much as 10 times as high as that of colonies kept in a warmer region at 300 meters above sea level, even though the two locations were within 150 km of each other and the colonies were headed by sister queens.” I can say also that varroa is unfortunately alive and well in Alaska. The only AHB in Alaska is the Alaskanized Honey Bee that some of us are hoping will develop. So far, it hasn’t been a stellar success. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:24:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello John and All, Well, I can't tell if any of these refer to me, but, for future = reference, let me say that sometimes I don't check my email more than weekly. Being = retired is keeping me busy. ;-)) - Nope! You have always tried to help with information. Bee-L is lucky to = have a retired USDA person on the list. I retired in 1998 myself but = still spend plenty of time with beekeeping. I have just finished reading all the posts done since my power and phone = went out last Wednesday and would say to many on the list that myself = and my friends work bees vary fast. Although we spend a great deal of = time looking at bees we might miss many of the things Dee Lusby talks = of seeing.=20 I will say I see multiple queens advantages only when building for a = honey flow. We combine two queen hives as soon as the second queens = workers will not be of the right age to add to the honey crop. Why would = you want several queens raising needless brood? I see thelytoky as a = curious and rare happening but of little use to me and the methods I = use to keep bees and produce honey. I certainly would not breed for = thelytoky but others can if they want too. The story of the queens brought to a meeting years ago in an = observation hive has certainly grown as the original story I heard was = two queens. My experience with queens is if you put two together they = fight. I have found two in the same hive both laying but when I put them = together they fought. I quickly separated the two but still they fought. = Hmmm. As a person which raises queens I have never seen a queen = hatch first and not try to kill all the other queens which have not = hatched yet. In my opinion two queens working side by side is putting = human characteristics on insects. Very unnatural but agree although rare = can happen but not normal bee behavior. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:55:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> This is a good point, a lot would depend on how reliable your local climate is. I wouldn't want a lot of needless brood either, the bees probably wouldn't survive the British climate without feeding. That's not to say that you can't find two queens in a hive at times in the UK though. <> A commercial beekeeper in Scotland who is on the Irish List reports finding this regularly, with two marked queens being found still together, if I remember right, up to a year after the younger was introduced. Beowulf Cooper reported it in some strains of A.m.m. ('supersedure strains'), and published photos of mother and daughter queens together on a comb in his book. This is probably an insurance against mating failures in an unfavourable climate. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:04:27 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Promotion Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm curious why there has not been any mention of the U.S. Honey = Promotion Board Referendum. Is dialogue on this subject off limits? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:15:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: > > Of course, the same article also said the reason for their longevity migh be > the dried sea snake in the health food stores. No mention of pesticides, > tho. Factors that ARE mentioned: genetics, diet (only eating till 80% full, > lots of fix, fresh veggies and fruit), spirituality, lack of stress, and > their poverty - that causes more physical excercise, leading to stronger > bones. We are in the never-ending discussion again and I apologize for adding to it, but I have some problem with blanket statements such as "food is heavily contaminated". Unfortunately the whole issue of pesticides shifts quickly from science to religion and facts are distorted to suit the believer. (Just look at the use of statistics to show why the Rams would destroy the Patriots by the end of the first quarter of the Super Bowl.) I agree that pesticides are bad and should be eliminated or reduced. I try to do so. But my apples are wormy as is my corn. But I know many farmers and beekeepers who must treat unless they no longer want to be farmers or beekeepers. Unfortunately, they live in the real world where they have to have a certain output per acre to break even and the consumer will not buy damaged fruit or vegetables. (Just go to a farm stand and watch people pull back corn husks to check for damage. Or try not spraying plums after blossom drop - you can end up with none.) The hobby beekeeper/gardener can take losses. I always over plant just because I know that many will not make it. No big deal. I spray my plums when I want plums and do not when I have a gazillion jars of preserves in the basement. I have the luxury of being righteous. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: NHB Referendum (Was Promotion Board) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I'm curious why there has not been any mention of the U.S. Honey > Promotion Board Referendum. Is dialogue on this subject off limits? No, it's not off limits, there just hasn't been any discussion. Some will say BEE-L is international in scope, hence the US NHB is of limited appeal. However, the US NHB is also international (some will say that's part of the problem), hence discussion of the NHB Referendum is a fair topic. Post away. Aaron Morris - fearing the baby will be thrown out with the bath! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There In-Reply-To: <01C1ADD3.24251800@pm6-3.discoverynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob wrote: >I see thelytoky as a curious and rare happening but of little use to me and the methods I use to keep bees and produce honey. Interestingly, all discussions on this point back to Otto Mackensen's experiments in 1943. Normally, a principle is not accepted in science unless it is independently verified, at least several times. It appears likely, if not certain, that occasionally a queenless colony of bees, having developed laying workers, will spontaneously produce a new queen from an unfertilized egg. How often, no one really knows. I have combed the books to find any corroboration of this phenomenon and have come to one simple conclusion: nobody really cares. As Bob says: it's a rare and curious thing but of little use. Allen refers to a let-alone plan of beekeeping which would lean heavily on bees taking care of things like queenlessness on their own. I submit there are better ways to do this, having practiced such a system for many years. I came to the conclusion that one could simply allow queenless hives to fizzle out, take 25% loss as a normal thing and simply make 30 to 50% increase in the spring. I think you would get just as much honey as you would by closely monitoring the hive, you would effectively control swarming, and you would have great success introducing new queens since they are more readily accepted by splits than by full colonies. This is, in fact, a system practiced by many commercial beekeepers in California, and no doubt, elsewhere. I worked with an old school beekeeper who simply divided every decent hive in the spring, in anticipation of expected loss. If you rely on a summer or fall flow, there is plenty of time for splits to build up in time for the flow. Furthermore, small hives seem very determined to build up, hence the build-up rate overall probably exceeds that off normal full sized colonies. A plan very similar to this was anticipated by Langstroth as soon as his frames gave complete control over the honey bee colony. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:36:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: Honey in super after strips taken out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >>Our food is heavily contaminated as it is. >This sounds good but is not backed up by facts. Even Consumer Reports >finds either no or little contamination of foods by pesticides. Were it >true, it would be all over the news. It is interesting to note in the context of this discussion that the European Union has just suspended the importation of virtually all animal derived foods (including honey) from China. This is because of persistent problems with residues of veterinary medicines in such foods. For more details see: http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gt&doc=IP/02/143|0|RAPID&lg=EN&display= and http://www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/chinaban James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector CSL National Bee Unit CSL website: http://www.csl.gov.uk National Bee Unit website: http://www.nationalbeeunit.com ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: the "Capensis calamity" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >A special issue of Apidologie: #2, 2002 > >The Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis). >A story of laying workers and anarchy in the bee hive. > >This special issue of Apidologie addresses the biological background on the "Capensis calamity" pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:35:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Promotion Board Comments: To: Rick Drutchas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Rick and All, I'm curious why there has not been any mention of the U.S. Honey = Promotion Board Referendum. Is dialogue on this subject off limits? Actually I believe very few Bee-L members will actually be casting a ballet so prefer to sit and watch. Only those paying the Honey Board will receive ballets. Mine came yesterday. The thought at the ABF convention and expressed to me personally by those at the Honey Board Booth is the Honey Board *may* be history. I believe the Honey Board will survive but only by a narrow margin. ( maybe get lucky like those New England Patriots! Hi Bill !) While the industry is on the chemical treadmill the honey board is needed if a problem arises. I am not sure which way I will vote but leaning to keeping the honey board partly because of the tremendous effort put forth by the board to give us the kind of board we want over the last two years. I will not be upset if the Honey board as it is now is dropped by the majority ( majority rules!) because I know a new honey board is being worked on to replace the old but it will take time to get the old replaced and if a problem arises in the meantime we may face the problem without a honey board to represent us. Both sides of the issue raise valid arguments in my *opinion.* Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:37:12 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kim van Vuuren Subject: The financial impact of varroa control costs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all I am a University of Canterbury Student in New Zealand completing my Master of Business Administration degree. The final part of the degree is the completion of a 9 month project. My project is based on varroa control costs and the financial impacts these control costs could have on South Island beekeepers. To date varroa is only found in the North Island of New Zealand but is gradually heading south. I am having difficulty finding information internationally on the financial impacts varroa control costs has had on beekeepers. I am aware of hive losses and beekeepers leaving the industry but I have not yet been able to find any research that has successfully linked the impact varroa has had on profitability and cash flow of beekeepers other than to say it has impacted on their profitability and cash flow and beekeepers have left the industry. Is anyone aware of any research that has been undertaken. If anyone is aware of such information please email me directly to let me know what the information is and how I can access it etc?. I have been through numerous international journals and databases (including the BEE-L archives). > Thank you > -- Kim van Vuuren Ph 349 5396 (ext 858) (work) 322 6964 (home) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:42:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all Bob Harrison said... > In my opinion two queens working side by side > is putting human characteristics on insects. It is neither rare nor un-natural... In my part of the UK it happens to many colonies without the beekeeper even being aware of it. Certainly among the colonies that I have kept during the last 20 years it has occured in about 75% of them. I have seen two queens walk past each other in oposite drections, but within touching distance. Neither of these queens paid the slightest attention to the other. On many occasions two queens will be found within 50 mm of each other on the same comb working on laying up the same patch of empty cells. Adrian Waring (previously secretaryof BBKA) has many hundreds of photographic slides of similar occurances. It is a feature that goes along with AMM strains and seems to have close linkeage with bees that have longer flying lives. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Bob & all > > Bob Harrison said... > > In my opinion two queens working side by side > > is putting human characteristics on insects. > > It is neither rare nor un-natural... In my part of the UK it happens to many > colonies without the beekeeper even being aware of it. And I have even found three at once! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron Taylor submitted the following to BEE-K this morning: > Received an e-mail concerning the closing of 3 bee labs. > Either they were not productive or there is less interest > in Beekeeping. With the hive beetles continuing to be > strong and more beekepers quitting, maybe there will > not be enough beekepers to worry about labs and > honey boards or anything associated with beekeeping. > Ron taylor I returned the submission to Ron for clarification, asking if this was credible information or rumor. I have since received mail from another source that makes me suspect that there may be a specter of closing 3 bee labs if President Bush's proposed budget is approved by congress. I'm wording this in a very fuzzy manner because I cannot verify the details here. However, this bears substantiation, and if true the beekeeping industry will need to mount an agressive campaign to save the bee labs. The (possibly) good news is that the budget the president proposes is rarely the budget congress delivers. Concerned, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:39:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Aaron and Everyone, I too have heard that all but the Weslaco bee labs were not in the = president's budget. Don't know if it is an oversight or an attempt to = actually close the other labs. It strikes me as a real waste to close = these labs now when they are so close to development of varroa resistant = stocks of honey bees that can be used by beekeepers. Of course they are = involved in much other important work as well that would also be lost. My = sources say it is apparently true and the beekeeping industry in the US is = aware and mobilizing. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Black Spanish Many thanks to the lively debate about Apis m. in the Americas. I have a question/observation. When I started with bees in the early '80's in Santa Barbara County in So. California, the local old timers always spoke of the Black Spanish bee. I had a hive of those, and up until now, I'd considered this simply a misnomer. They were mean, black and outside of a couple of my scut hives in Bushmanland in South Africa, the least favorite of all the hives I've ever owned. So my question is: Am I wrong in assuming that they were simply feral German bees? Could there indeed have been more of those Spanish bees around than people thought? Regards Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:11:09 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Promotion Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The way I understand it is the more honey you make, the more your vote is worth. It's the big operations that are paying 10, 20, 30 thousand dollars a year to keep the board going who seem most likely to vote the board down. At first when the board was started the assesments where volintary, you could get out of it by filling out some paperwork. Then it was changed so you had to pay with threat of jail time. Of course honey makers only pay about half the assesments the other half comes from imports that the packers bring in. No doubt the packers will vote for the board its been working just fine for them. The big producers, well time will tell. If the board is voted down I have to say, in my opinion, they had thier chance. Some of big beekeepers tryed to get on the board but failed, apparently they where considered a threat. The old saying, it's best to keep your friends close and your enemies closer may have been a good strategy for the board to follow. Rick Drutchas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 03:56:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Two sides of IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. IPM is holy writ on this list but I see it just the opposite as I explain on "I Stand IPM On Its Head" at Folks at risk for apoplexy might be happier skipping this one. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > Actually, that was my theory, and one of the reasons I took on "trying" to survey several million acres by myself. I'm glad at least one of my ideas got some exposure. And I'm sure I wasn't the first to think of the possibility, just the first to really try to look at the huge area of SW Arizona. ;-) What were your findings? Did you find such Apis m. stock? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:27:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Disease resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Resistance to American foulbrood disease by honey bee colonies Apis mellifera bred for hygienic behavior > >Marla SPIVAK*, Gary S. REUTER > >Abstract – Honey bee colonies, selected for hygienic behavior on the basis of a freeze-killed brood assay, demonstrated resistance to American foulbrood disease. Over two summers in 1998 and 1999, 18 hygienic and 18 non-hygienic colonies containing instrumentally inseminated queens were challenged with comb sections containing spores of the bacterium Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae that causes the disease. The strain of bacterium was demonstrated to be resistant to oxytetracycline antibiotic. Seven (39%) hygienic colonies developed clinical symptoms of the disease but five of these recovered (had no visible symptoms) leaving two colonies (11%) with clinical symptoms. In contrast, 100% of the non-hygienic colonies that were challenged developed clinical symptoms, and only one recovered. All non-hygienic colonies had symptoms of naturally occurring chalkbrood disease (Ascosphaera apis) throughout both summers. In contrast 33% of the hygienic colonies developed clinical sym! ptoms of chalkbrood after they were challenged with American foulbrood, but all recovered. The diseased non-hygienic colonies produced significantly less honey than the hygienic colonies. -- from Apidologie 32 (2001) 555–565 555 © INRA/DIB-AGIB/EDP Sciences, 2001 Comment: Marla Spivak has been working with hygienic bees for almost ten years now, using scientific breeding techniques such as instrumental insemination. These bees are resistant to various diseases, by virtue of their excellent housekeeping instinct. But - they are not resistant or immune to the agents that cause these diseases and can succumb in a certain percent of hives. 11 percent of the hygienic hives were *unable* to prevent full blown AFB. This compares to 100% of non-hygienic hives broke down when infected with diseased brood (only one was able to recover on its own). Doing the math, however, one could reduce AFB incidence from one hive in a hundred to one hive in a thousand. With such a low rate as this, one would scarcely have any reason to hesitate to destroy the occasional susceptible hive. Or, *where permitted*, the diseased hives could be isolated and treated. pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:37:51 -0600 Reply-To: charlie harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: charlie harper Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202061355.g16Dt8A24367@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:39:40 -0600, Blane White wrote: >Hi Aaron and Everyone, > >I too have heard that all but the Weslaco bee labs were not in the = >president's budget. >FWIW > >blane > Hi Everyone I just called the Baton Rouge Beelab. The Closings are real so get on the Band wagon and COMPLAIN COMPLAIN TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN NOW. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:11:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202061355.g16Dt8A24372@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L It was written: I too have heard that all but the Weslaco bee labs were not in the president's budget. My sources say it is apparently true and the beekeeping industry in the US is aware and mobilizing. Reply: This reconfiguration of labs has been on the books for quite a while now with all labs to be closed with the exception of Weslaco. Yes the industry as I understand it is quite aware, but also is aware of needing positive research and not negative research. There is a big difference between the two. I also believe that land grant universities were to be part of this in the long term planning.Anyone heard of anything yet pertaining to the land grant universities? Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:27:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Black Spanish In-Reply-To: <200202061402.g16E2RA24706@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Tim wrote: So my question is: Am I wrong in assuming that they were simply feral German bees? Could there indeed have been more of those Spanish bees around than people thought? Reply: Yes indeed and probably Native bees. Until it is properly tested for and actually proven with good DNA testing throughout both S. America and N. America the question will not be put to rest. Right now all we have is assumption and sporatic historical papers of very limited areas of introduction for basing beliefs on, which in my opinion favor petro-chemical companys for allowing spraying over massive areas, that wouldn't be allowed if there were early bees and found to be natives at that. It's funny that scientists can look all over the world in areas looking for native bees in Europe, Africa and Southeast Asia. But it seems politically incorrect to look in S. America and N. America for some reason to close a debate that has been here since the start of the 1900s. Our local bee association has a bylaw for protecting Native and early Spanish Bees I am bound to protect. That I will do until proven one way or the other. Such is the heritage of S. Arizona (Gadsden purchase territory and south of Gila river). regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <001901c1af31$d7533f60$7c0517d1@HPAuthorizedCustomer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Adrian Wenner had a very nice article published in the May 1993 issue of Gleanings. He fixes the date of the first bee importation into California at 1853. One colony reached San Jose, CA from Panama, but no one seems to know how it got to Panama (were there Euro. honey bees there by then?). Harbison brought 67 colonies in 1857 and by 1860 there was at least a thousand colonies in San Jose. These bees were "German" black bees which were first brought to Virginia, USA in 1622. Dr. Wenner states that the feral honey bees on Santa Cruz Island probably descended from this same stock, having been taken there around 1873. (See ABJ, Jan. 1988) Interestingly, he notes that after 130 years in isolation they appeared very similar to the dark Euro. races *except for color*. Dr. Wenner, can you comment on the color of the bees? Finally, knowing that the Spanish arrived in Mexico with a voracious appetite for beeswax, and that they established missions clear up to California, one would *assume* that they brought bees into northern Mexico along with grape vines, etc. But did they? If they had, why would Harbison and the rest need to import bees? Just wondering... >Spain brought the first explorers, missionaries and settlers to the Americas, the first cattle, horses, pigs and other farm animals, the first European grains and produce. > >The territory of New Mexico also included present-day Arizona. In 1687, Father Eusebio Francisco Kino, a Jesuit, came to this area. He founded 25 missions, including the beautiful San Xavier del Bac near Tucson, as well as 20 cattle ranches. > >Although California’s coast had been explored in 1542 by Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo, no effort had been made to settle this area. Spain became concerned when it learned that Russian fur trappers were moving along the northern Pacific coast and that Great Britain continued to show interest in the area. > >Gaspar de Portolá was named governor of California and Fray Junípero Serra was placed in charge of the Franciscan missionaries. Together they founded the mission and fort of San Diego in 1769. Eventually 21 missions were founded along El Camino Real as far north as Sonoma. The approximately 60 Franciscan priests converted 31,000 Indians and the missions prospered economically. Four forts were built in San Francisco, Monterey, Santa Barbara, and San Diego. Three pueblos were established: San José in 1777, Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciúncula (Los Angeles) in 1781, and Branciforte at modern-day Santa Cruz in 1797. http://www.hispaniconline.com/hh/us_ltn_presence.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:07:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <20020204025059.98356.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Quote" > Abbe D. Francesco Saverio Clavigero ... wrote there are at least six different kinds of bees in our new world way back in the mid 1700s. > >1. The 1st is the same as the common bee of Europe, with which it agres, not only in size, shape and color, but also >in its disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax. Would you like to give the Title and Page Numbers, so we can look that up? Bear in mind, he was writing 200 years *after* the Spanish arrived and could have been describing bees that *they* brought in 1560. Bear in mind also: >The desert regions of northern Mexico and southern Arizona have the richest diversity of bees found anywhere in the world. Although there is no exact count, a bee scientist at the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center says there are between 1,000 and 1,200 species of bees within 100 miles of Tucson! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 06:28:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Catch The Buzz Article (Closing of bee labs.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: kim@airoot.com [mailto:kim@airoot.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 3:31 PM > To: undisclosed-recipients > Subject: Catch The Buzz Article > > > > Industry Organizations and individual beekeepers and those > who depend on honey bee research (and who doesn't eat?), must > act fast to convince congress that the guns in the proposed > budget will mean less butter for all of us. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > Bee Labs Not In 2003 Budget > > > If you haven't heard, the 2003 budget submitted by the > President in early February, calls for a $15 million base > fund reduction for the USDA's Agriculture Research Service > (ARS). An additional $90 million will be terminated as > congressional add-ons, part of which will come from closing > two Albany, CA research facilities and additional programs in > wheat quality labs. > > Of the $15 million, part of this is to be accomplished by > terminating all operations at the Beltsville, Tucson and > Baton Rouge Bee Labs. One scientist from each lab and that > scientist's funding will then be transferred to the Weslaco > Bee Lab in Weslcao, Texas. The remaining scientists and staff > will be offered other positions in ARS. This will reduce the > USDA Honey Bee research scientist positions from 21 to 9. > > These transfers will increase Weslaco's budget by $1.3 > million, even though they, too, will lose a congressional > add-on from last year. The Logan, Utah, Bee Lab will lose a > $249,000 congressional add-on, but undergo no other changes > or transfers. > > Dr. Phyllis Johnson, Beltsville Area Director said that the > lab closing proposals were part of the findings of a > Facilities Task force established by the last Farm bill committee. > > The budget proposal next goes to, and needs to be approved by > both the USDA and the OMB before it goes to congress. They > have, to some degree, the latitude to decide what is, and > isn't in the final budget presented to Congress. > > Concerns of the affected industries should be directed to > local congressi8onal offices, members of the appropriations > committees and the Secretary of the USDA said Dr. Johnson. > > If enacted as proposed, the three affected Bee Labs will > close and transfers occur at the end of the current fiscal > year, September 30, 2002. > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kim Flottum > Editor, Bee Culture Magazine > http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm > > For an archive Catch the Buzz postings, visit: > http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html > > To unsubscribe to this emailing, simply goto: > http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/unsubscribe.html > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:24:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Dave and All, The subject of more than one queen in a hive has came up hundreds of = times in meetings I have attended through the years. . Many noted = researchers have commented on the subject. I will list a few of their = comments. Most researchers say beekeepers simply open a hive and find two queens = and assume many things about the situation. Researchers explained to us at these talks that something is wrong with = the genetic makeup of bees which allow two queens OR there is a very = simple answer which the observing beekeeper is not seeing such as. 1. The bees have raised a new queen and the two have not met yet. When I have found two queens in the same hive there have been an old = queen and a young queen. When I took the two and put together the battle = was on. Maybe Dave has tried putting the two together and will comment. = I DO NOT leave two such queens in a hive because it serves no purpose = for me. I leave the younger of the two. 2.Researchers explained that beekeepers which keep bees in three or more = deep brood boxes frequently find two brood nests if there are two = entrances such as one at the top and one at the bottom. Put together = alone the two queens will start fighting even though they have got the = same hive odor.=20 In my two queen colonies when I pull the excluder to combine after about = two weeks into the main honey flow at times the two separate queens will = continue as two queens for longer than I would like but eventually the = worker bees returning through the bottom nest will kill the lower queen. = I can always tell these hives in which both queens laid past the time I = wanted after I pull the supers by the amount of brood in their before = combined positions. 100,000 bees in the hive at the end of a honey flow = are not a good situation. for me. Properly combined two queen hives are = combined so the hive population of a two separate brood nests combined = is about the same as a single queen population AT THE END OF THE HONEY = FLOW. A cruel method I have seen practiced by commercial beekeepers is to pull = honey supers *bees and all* and let the bees fly out over the 100 miles = back to the extracting plant. The purpose is to reduce the bee = population sitting around eating up honey needed to winter on. Young = bees winter better than old bees.=20 2. small after swarms will at times enter weak hives and set up = housekeeping. When I put the queens of these together they always = fought. 3. . The most popular reason other than the above which is a simple = logical explanation is genetics. A genetic pheromone problem. Both queens are giving out LOW levels of = pheromones The researchers explained that with both giving out low = pheromone levels the bees did not see the two queens as a problem. Bees = will ball an old queen most of the time when a supercede young queen = returns and they notice how weak the pheromones of the old queen are. We = really do not know everything about queen bee pheromones but we do know = the pheromones get weaker as the queen ages and supercedure will start = at a certain point. We also know queens of over several years old have = had strong enough pheromones to prevent supercedure while young queen of = only a couple months have been superceded by the bees for low pheromone = output. Dave wrote: Certainly among the colonies that I have kept during the last 20 years = it has occured in about 75% of them. This seems like a rather high figure and would lead me to suspect a = genetic problem. Please do not get upset Dave as only my opinion and I = am wrong at times. As a honey producer I see no valid reason for = leaving two queens in the same hive except for a specific reason such as = brood production before a honey flow. If those were my hives I would = requeen all those A.m.m. hives with an Italian strain. Dave and I have = been friends for a long time Bee-L listers so we kid back and forth = about the merits of A.mm and Aml. To sum my post up all the researchers = in all the talks say there is a perfectly logical reason why two queens = might co exist in a hive if the problem is looked at close enough. Maybe = Dave and Dee do not see multiple queens as a problem but I see the need = for two queens only for the reasons I stated.=20 A curious situation which Dave talked about in great detail on the Irish = list was finding his numbered queens from one nuc in another nuc and = the numbered queen from that nuc in the other nuc. I honestly have not = got an answer for that situation unless his bee buddies are playing = tricks on Dave. Comments/ Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:25:33 -0600 Reply-To: charlie harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: charlie harper Subject: Baton Rouge Bee Lab MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unique Strengths of the Baton Rouge Honey Bee Research Program The Only Lab in the World Providing Genetic Solutions for the Beekeeping Industry Genetically resistant stocks are universally recognized as the only sustainable, long-term option because honey bee mites are not controllable through cultural practices and have developed resistance to all developed and approved acaricides. This resistance has spread widely in United States populations of parasitic mites bringing the industry to an imminent crisis. Baton Rouge is unique in the world as a center of honey bee genetics. It alone has developed stocks of honey bees resistant to Varroa mites. These stocks are available to the industry but much work remains to make the stocks sustainable for the long term. Current genetic material is limited and needs expansion to avoid the inbreeding problems that plague honey bee breeding. The unique stocks of honey bees at the Lab provide the necessary genetic materials essential to take advantage of genomics based solutions to industry problems and is the ideal location to grow this potential. Human Resources The staff is comprised of seven research scientists (including ARS only research geneticists in honey bees) with over 70 scientist years in the area of genetic resistance to mites and other bee hazards. Six biological technicians with over 30 years in the area, are fully competent in a wide variety of laboratory and field techniques. Unique Features of Location and Facilities The unit has an APHIS- approved isolated quarantine and mating station on Grand Terre Island. The establishment required a 7-year study to provide environmental impact information necessary to obtain approval. The unit has additional isolated mating stations on Marsh Island, Rockefeller NWR and other coastal sites. These sites are protected by open water and a vast salt marsh environment that makes them free of other honey bees and never will be troubled with Africanized honey bees. Climate, flora and land use patterns permit almost year-round apicultural research and the essential early season queen propagation necessary to support research. Additionally, the moist environment assures adequate growth of mite parasites for experimental evaluations of resistance. The State of Louisiana is free of Africanized bees and expected to be generally free of their influence in the future and completely free at mating station locations. Selected germplasm for testing or release to industry can be shipped to all continental states and to countries in Europe and Asia avoiding importation restrictions between states and countries based on Africanized honey bees. The laboratory facility is surrounded by 10 dedicated acres in which to maintain breeding and experimental colonies. The facility is located on a near campus LSU agricultural farm that prevents of urbanization. The physical facilities include a bee manipulation building permitting research on modern cost effective ways to conduct varied bee management activities at a central site. The unit has twenty-four functional apiaries with capacity for twenty to thirty colonies each on Louisiana Agricultural Experiment property and on private properties within a 15 mile radius. Rural areas around the facility permit further apiary expansion as necessary. Ongoing Projects and Resistant Stocks Currently Available to Industry Varroa and tracheal mite resistant Russian bees - This work is about halfway through a program of yearly importation, quarantine, screening and testing. The goal is to maintain three groups of about 10 elite queen lines each with high resistance to varroa and tracheal mites, superior honey production and improved overwintering abilities which can be interbred for the long term. Existing stock is now available to the industry as pure queens through a CRADA but stock development must continue to make this critically important contribution sustainable. SMRD trait - The suppressed mite reproduction (delayed) trait eliminates the reproduction of female varroa mites in colonies. The genes for this trait need to be incorporated a variety of other stocks through a course of backcrossing and selection. This work is essential as a parallel activity to Russian bee work so that the general base of genetic diversity in United States bee stocks remains wide. This work is ongoing through CRADA research. Standard tracheal mite resistant and susceptible stock - Used by industry cooperators in selecting for high tracheal mite resistance in their stocks or to incorporate germplasm into their stocks. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:21:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Re: Bee hunting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adrian M Wenner wrote: > > My co-workers and I found the traditional techniques too inefficient for >the task we faced and developed our own method, one that enabled us to find >about 150 colonies. We published our thoughts in 1992 in an article, now >readily available as item #12 on the following website: > >http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm > Adrian, Thanks for pointing me to your article "Efficient hunting of feral colonies". I enjoyed reading the article and intend to try some of the techniques mentioned. One of the most difficult parts of bee hunting for me is keeping an eye on the bee while she makes her orientation circles. Some of the "circles" end up being very oblong. As the bee whips past you its very easy to lose her. In you article you mentioned Christmas-tree tinsel to mark bees. If I "super glued" a small length of tinsel to a bee's foot after she has loaded up with honey-water, do you think she would head for home?... or, would she land somewhere nearby to try and remove the tinsel? If she headed for home, certainly she would be easier to follow. Is there an ethical question here (i.e. intentionally making a bee uncomfortable)? I think I would be able to sleep. Also, could you clip the tips of the bee's wings so she flys much slower? - making it easier to follow her. How do you anaesthetize a bee? Can the lay person do it? Thanks John Bachman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:31:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <200202062017.g16KHAA13228@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Quote: The indefatigable Purchas gives us an account of the revenues of the Empire of Mexico, before the arrival of the Spaniards, as described in its annals; which were pictures drawn on cotton cloth. Among other articles he exhibits the figures of covered pots with two handles, which are said to be pots of "bees' honey." Of these pots, 200 are depicted in one tribute-toll, and 100 in several others." This account is confirmed by an account of the History of Mexico, written by the Abbe Clavigero, a native of Vera Cruz. Please see prior post of '6' different type of bees, with one aggreeing with the common bee of Eruope, not only in size, shape and color, but also in disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax. Another quote: In the account given by Purchas, of the travels of Ferdinando de Soto, in Florida, it is observed that when he came to Chiaha, which by the description was one of the upper branches of the Mobile (now in the State of Georgia) he found among the provisions of the natives "a pot full of honie of bees." This was A.D. 1540, when there were no Europeans settled on the continent of America, but in Mexico and Peru. >From these authorities it is evident that honeybees were known in Mexico and the islands, before the arrival of the Europeans; and that they had extended as far northward as Florida, a country so denominated from the numberless flowers, which grow there in wild luxuriance and afford a plenty of food for this useful tribe of insects. the inference is, that the bees were not imported by the Spaniards; for however fond they might be of honey as an article of food, or of wax to make tapers for common use, or for the illumination of their churches, yet as bees were known to be in the country there could be no need of importing them. The report of honey and wax being found in the islands, in Mexico, and in Florida, had reached Europe and had been published there long before any emigrations were made to the northward... The first European settlement in Virginia was made about 70 years after the expedition of De Soto, in Florida, and the first settlement in New England was 10 years posterior to that of Virginia. The large intermediate country was uncultivated for a long time afterward. The southern bees, therefore, cound have no inducement to extend themselves vary far to the northward for many years after the settlements were begun, and within that time bees were imported from Europe... It appears then that the honeybee is a native of AMerica, and that its productions were found by the first European visitors as far northward as Florida and Georgia. It is also true that bees were imported from Europe into New England, and probably into Virginia; but whether if this importation had not taken place, the bees of the southern parts would not have extended themselves northely, or whether those which we now have are not a mixture of native and imported bees,cannot be determined... This was written by Jeremy Belknap and given as part of a speach 23 Oct 1792 Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee revealed: > This reconfiguration of labs has been on the books for > quite a while now with all labs to be closed with the > exception of Weslaco. This is a new and creative use of the term "reconfiguration". Would one to say that one's house was "reconfigured" into a smoldering pile of rubble by an electrical fire? :) I remember a very similar scenario not long ago in the field of high-energy physics: a) As luck would have it, the president in office was also named Bush. b) The attempt was to centralize a wide range of efforts to one effort at a single site in (surprise!) Texas. c) The attempt used funding, or more correctly the lack thereof, to enforce a similar "Battan death march" of scientists to some one horse, no-Starbucks town in Texas. The project was called the "Superconducting Supercollider", or "SSC". Purely political agendas spent millions of tax dollars digging part of a very large circular tunnel with the intention of lining it with superconducting magnets that simply did not work as well as hoped, just as all the scientists had warned. The remnants of the tunnel are still there. So is some very expensive tunnel-digging equipment, slowly rusting. > Yes the industry as I understand it is quite aware, but > also is aware of needing positive research and not negative > research. There is a big difference between the two. *ANY* research is an absolute bargain-basement, once-in-a-lifetime gem of a deal compared to most other uses of tax dollars. Research, including "negative" research, has a clear track record of substantial payback in tangible results to industry and society. The mere fact that you are reading this is proof of the massive payback of R&D. As recently as 1979, a computer capable of letting you read this e-mail would have cost more than your house. I know, I had to sign checks to buy some of the beasties. Now they retail for $599.95 The sort of work done at the bee labs is certain to have a very high payback to investment ratio, simply because the amounts of money required are so small. Even the wildest dreams of researchers at the bee labs are so low-cost that the entire bee-lab program could be funded by something so minor as simply asking our congressmen to turn off the lights when leaving their offices. But regardless of cost, R&D in any form is not a process where even the majority of efforts can be expected to have outcomes that can be viewed as "positive". I used to run one of the labs at AT&T Bell Labs. There were executives that viewed some projects to be "a waste". That sort of Monday-morning quarterbacking forced me to explain, more often than I would have liked, as follows: "If we knew the outcome ahead of time, then it wouldn't be R&D!" The proof of the value and certainty of research payback can be found in the annual reports of the larger multinational gangs of robber barons. There is not a single company with revenues measured in billions that does not have a large, well-funded group of people who wear white lab coats, and have a free hand to explore and experiment in areas of their own choosing. Mere coincidence? You decide. By contrast, an approach where scientists are pressured to "produce", and satisfy something other than their own curiosity results in expensive comedies like the Abrams M1A2 tank, a snafu resulting in a tank inferior to even the (by then obsolete) USSR T-72 tank. Still not convinced? Read up on the National Science Foundation, and figure out why politicians are excluded by law from any involvement in project funding decisions. > I also believe that land grant universities were to be part of > this in the long term planning. Anyone heard of anything yet > pertaining to the land grant universities? It would be nice if proposed budget reductions at the bee labs were equaled by budget increases for land-grant extension programs, but I lack sufficient supplies of single-malt to be able to make myself believe that this is true. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:20:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There I agree, but most beekeepers will not notice the two queens as they will think that are simply seeing the same queen twice (unless they are close together, of course). However, if the beekeeper regularly marks queens then it is then easily spotted when an unmarked queen is seen as well as the marked one. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cushman" . > > It is neither rare nor un-natural... In my part of the UK it happens to many > colonies without the beekeeper even being aware of it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Beekeepers: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html offers a small amount of information on the closings. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:57:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The closing of bee labs in part is coming from long term projections for a huge reduction in commercial beekeeping in the U.S. over the next ten years. Let me explain? The projections made by economists about the future of U.S. beekeeping ten years ago have came true. The most recent prediction of gloom and doom came from the excellent lecture given by world renown economist and sideline beekeeper Dr. Gary Shilling of Springfield, NJ. The title of the lecture was: "The Future of American Beekeeping: *Protectionism or Productivity* and was the first in hopefully a long line of lectures made possible by A. I. Root company. I agree with everything Dr. Shilling said but wished he would have been even more blunt so as to wake up those beekeepers asleep during the lecture. I have been informed by Barry Birkey that tapes of the various ABF convention lectures will not be made available this year. I realize the ABF is afraid if beekeepers can buy the tapes then they will not attend. Many beekeepers do not attend for many reasons and I believe the tapes should be made available so those missing the convention can hear the many lectures. The next two big problems pointed out by Dr. Shilling are: 1. Protectionism WILL NOT protect the American Beekeeper from the problem of low price foreign honey. A recent example of Dr. Shillings prediction is the move as I write by the Bush administration to expand NAFTA to include most of South America including Argentina. 2.It is easy to mark each point in beekeeping history when commercial beekeepers numbers have been reduced. The next mark is coming over the next 2-to 3 years when coumaphos resistance ravages commercial operations and varroa raises its ugly head again as pointed out by Dr. Shilling in his lecture. Nectar sources can always be found by the migratory U.S. beekeeper BUT when hive losses mount to the 50% range neither honey can be produced or bees rented for pollination in amounts needed to keep the business solvent. On a final note: Dr. Shilling keeps around 50 hives of bees and gives all his honey away as Christmas presents and enjoys beekeeping and expects to be unaffected by the changes in beekeeping other than surviving varroa. Going back to the bee lab closings the congressinal committees SEE the American beekeeping industry is getting smaller and believe research should be reduced. Sadly the opposite is needed. Contact your representative and let your feelings be noted. www.sentate.gov or www.house.gov Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Adrian Wenner had a very nice article published in the May 1993 issue of >Gleanings. He fixes the date of the first bee importation into California >at 1853. One colony reached San Jose, CA from Panama, but no one seems to >know how it got to Panama (were there Euro. honey bees there by then?). Dr. Wenner writes: One can find a quite complete account of that importation on pages 190-191 in the May 1968 AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL, written by my good friend at the time (Lee H. Watkins, now deceased). In his article, Watkins attempted to make sense of the conflicting accounts of the time. In brief, 12 colonies purchased by C.A. Shelton, left New York by ship. Native boats and mules aided in their transport across the Panama Isthmus. After travel in rough seas to San Francisco and then to San Jose, only one hive remained alive. In later years, other importers of bees had a better success rate on the same route. (Unfortunately, Shelton got scalded to death on board ship before reaching the final destination.) Peter also summarized: >Harbison brought 67 colonies in 1857 and by 1860 there was at least a >thousand colonies in San Jose. These bees were "German" black bees which >were first brought to Virginia, USA in 1622. Dr. Wenner states that the >feral honey bees on Santa Cruz Island probably descended from this same >stock, having been taken there around 1873. (See ABJ, Jan. 1988) >Interestingly, he notes that after 130 years in isolation they appeared >very similar to the dark Euro. races *except for color*. Dr. Wenner, can >you comment on the color of the bees? The Santa Cruz Island bees have a very light color (a "yellow" tint, according to Dr. Rob Page, who spent several days with us on the island). The exact ancestry of the bees remains somewhat of a mystery. DNA analysis, allozyme analysis, and wing morphometrics did not yield results consistent with one another. To add to the mystery of "Iberian" bees in the Mission country, the chalkbrood found in Santa Cruz Island bee colonies is closer to that found in Iberian bee colonies than in colonies on the nearby mainland (Santa Barbara). One can find that account in: 1997 Gilliam, M., B.J. Lorenz, A.M. Wenner, and R.W. Thorp. Occurrence and distribution of Ascosphaera apis in North America: chalkbrood in feral honey bee colonies that had been in isolation on Santa Cruz Island, California for over 110 years. Apidologie. 28:329-338. Peter, in that last connection (Iberian chalkbrood), also astutely noted: >Finally, knowing that the Spanish arrived in Mexico with a voracious >appetite for beeswax, and that they established missions clear up to >California, one would *assume* that they brought bees into northern Mexico >along with grape vines, etc. But did they? If they had, why would Harbison >and the rest need to import bees? C.A. Shelton was a botanist who had travelled extensively about California before going back East to gather plants and bees. He surely would have known if bees had existed in California before he purchased his hives in New York (at great expense) and went to all the trouble to get those colonies to California. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee Lusby writes: >Among other articles he exhibits the figures of covered pots with two handles, which are said to be pots of "bees' honey." Of these pots, 200 are depicted in one tribute-toll, and 100 in several others."This account is confirmed by an account of the History of Mexico, written by the Abbe Clavigero, a native of Vera Cruz. This certainly sounds like a description of Meliponi bee culture. The bees themselves are often kept in clay pots, as they have been for centuries. This is still done throughout the Yucatan and in the area around Vera Cruz. Meliponi are not found in northern Mexico or the United States. They are an entirely different genus of bee from our honey bee. How much different? Well, the brood is in combs, but they are horizontal like those of social wasps. The honey is in pots, like the bumble bee makes. There are several species of Apis, A. mellifera and A. cerana are examples. This difference is like that of the brown bear (Ursa americanus) and the grizzly bear (Ursa horribilis). Melipona is a different *genus*. This difference is like that between Ursa americanus (brown bear) and Canis occidentalis (timber wolf). Notes: >Beekeeping with stingless bees (meliponiculture) in Mexico is an ancient tradition which today is in the process of disappearing. [On] the Yucatan peninsula, out of 13 native species, Melipona beechi (colel-kab) was favored because of the nest size, the flavour of the honey, the gentleness of the bees, and probably its attractive golden appearance, to the extent it was practically the only species under domestic management by the Maya. from Bee World, #4, 2001 >Bishop San Diego de Landa, who arrived in the Yucatan in 1549, seven years after the Spanish conquest, wrote the only surviving extensive description: "There are two kinds of bees and both are very much smaller than ours. They do not make honeycomb as ours do, but a kind of small blisters like walnuts of wax all joined together and full of honey. ... These bees do not sting nor do they harm when the honeycombs are cut out." ... Melipona beechi has very much the appearance of a small (about half-size) honeybee. Its Maya name is "colecab", which means "lady bee" and in Mayan beliefs it seems to be at least somewhat holy. ... When [Apis] honeybees were first brought to Yaxcaba, they caused a great deal of excitement. They were so large, the colonies were so populous, and they gathered somuch honey, that many of the people were convinced that these were in fact *the gods of colecab*. from Bee World, #1, 1981 ------------------------------------- As to what the wild honey bees of Arizona are, Eric Mussen writes, in May 2000: >Outside of Tucson, in caves in cliffs, researchers found that feral colonies fluctuate between 87 and 100% African Honey Bee, according to mitochondrial DNA analysis. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Future of Beekeeping... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For those interested, Dr. Shilling's entire talk, complete with graphs (but without the humor), will be published in the March issue of Bee Culture. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine V: 800.289.7668 x3214 Fax: 330.725.5624 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:18:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Cornick Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When the American public is confronted with a $5 apple perhaps the approach to bee labs and beekeeping will change. The value of bees is in pollination not honey. You can bet your congressman and senator won't be eating white bread or Chinese honey in their cafeteria. The greatest portion of farm subsidy goes to large agribusiness. I still take the view Archinmedes had of government "Stand from between me and the light" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:24:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: The Truth is Out There MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all A mountain of points Bob... but I will try and deal with them without slagging off your prized Italians. > Most researchers say beekeepers simply open a hive and find two queens > and assume many things about the situation. Perhaps your American researchers have not put enough effort into their analyses, However it is a trait that is strongly marked in AMM bees and probably you do not see representatives of that race in USA? > Researchers explained to us at these talks that something is wrong with = > the genetic makeup of bees which allow two queens OR there is a very = > simple answer which the observing beekeeper is not seeing The research carried out in UK, mainly by Beo Cooper and other BIBBA members, has concluded that it is a strategy that helps colonies to survive in seasons where bad weather rules out swarming. > When I have found two queens in the same hive there have been an old = > queen and a young queen. When I took the two and put together the battle = > was on. Difficult to draw a parallel here, about the ages, but one will always be older than the other... usually by one year, but two or three year gap is possible. Cases of three or more queens are much rarer than two, but it would be likely that each had been raised in successive years. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/avm.html Describes some of the mating habits of bees that exhibit supercedure. > The bees have raised a new queen and the two have not met yet. Hundreds of observations by dozens of beekeepers have been made of intimate contact between the queens with no fighting. Many (most) of these queens were numbered or marked. > Maybe Dave has tried putting the two together and will comment. No it has not been tried by myself, but I have seen them a couple of millimetres apart without such intervention on a good many occasions. Where two queens exist in this manner they are usually found close together and almost always found on the same frame. > I DO NOT leave two such queens in a hive because it serves no purpose = > for me. I leave the younger of the two. That is your method of dealing with what you percieve as a problem, but in your case it would probably result in more brood than the colony required. In my case even with two queens present the nest only expands to the extent of 7 or 8 (maybe 9) B.S. sized frames. > Researchers explained that beekeepers which keep bees in three or more = > deep brood boxes frequently find two brood nests Could it be that the bees are trying to tell you that three Langstroth deeps is too much volume for one bee colony? > A genetic pheromone problem. Both queens are giving out LOW levels of = > pheromones It may well be true that pheromone levels are lower in AMM queens than other races, but this is not a defect, it is merely that AMM queens do not need to subdue such large numbers of workers as may occur in more prolific strains. > Dave wrote: > Certainly among the colonies that I have kept during the > last 20 years it has occured in about 75% of them. > This seems like a rather high figure and would lead me > to suspect a genetic problem. You may percieve it as a problem, but it is a feature that I positively select for (I am not alone in this, there are hundreds of likeminded beekeepers that make the same selection). > Please do not get upset Dave as only my opinion I am not upset, Bob. It is "horses for courses" your bees would not last many seasons in the conditions that mine thrive in. I also doubt that my bees could cope very well with your geographic and weather parameters. > A curious situation which Dave talked about in great detail on the Irish = > list was finding his numbered queens from one nuc in another nuc and = > the numbered queen from that nuc in the other nuc. I honestly have not = > got an answer for that situation unless his bee buddies are playing = > tricks on Dave. Comments/ Apart from a few others reporting unusual occurrances, there has been no comment. I suspect that there are too few beekeepers that actually use numbers and keep records, to show up such events. I do not suspect any trickery (if you tried such a trick I bet it would fail in some way). I have over the last three seasons used mating nucs on fence posts about every 2.5 metres along the inside of the perimeter fence of my apiary. I have seen marked and unmarked queens walking about on the horizontal rails of the fence, but no swapping occurred that I noticed. Someone else commented on seing this walking on woodwork as well. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ben Hanson Subject: Re: bee labs closing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is extremely sad, but it's typical. Of millions of potential budgetary items that could be eliminated and waste that could be trimmed, it is the list of useful, therefore mainly unpolitically motivated funded items that can be cut without a fight in congress. Art, research, and humanitarian aid are not voter issues. Taxes, guns, reproductive rights, and taxes (did I mention taxes) are. The global market view is that if US industry wants to compete, they will, and therefore will fund research. But knowledge isn't always about profit, so we lose a little bit of ourselves every time we shut something valuable in and of its own right down. I'll be glad to be the first to send them a dozen $100,000 toilet seats if they'll add the savings to the Bee lab budget. Ben Hanson bhanson@rica.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:13:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Cornick [SMTP:DroneBee@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 8:18 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Hello Thomas and All, Thomas wrote; When the American public is confronted with a $5 apple perhaps the = approach to bee labs and beekeeping will change. The value of bees is in = pollination not honey. As a Apple grower and seller I feel compeled to comment. The American = public will NEVER see the $5 Apple because we live in a world market. = This year the wholesale price for a bushel of Apples was around $3 a = bushel. But Apples in grocery stores sold most of the time for .99 per = pound. I CAN get grocery store prices at Farmers markets but volume can = not be moved. The commercial Apple orchards in our area have dropped = from 17 orchards to five if all open this spring.=20 As I posted earlier three bee farms have went out of business this year = in Missouri and one is on the way out. One farm had been in business = since 1926, one since 1945 and the other for over 25 years. All = commercial beekeepers. The reasons stated by the out of business = beekeepers when asked by me: 1. mite problems tracheal mite At first 50% looses varroa at first- 50% to 95% losses chemical resistance (Apistan)- 50% losses until coumaphos section 18 expected Coumaphos resistance coming with no legal solution and Ipm to = labor intense plus results to undependable *at presant time* 2. low honey prices on bulk honey from foreign competiton 3. New lower prices needed to be competitive in the grocery stores AND = slow honey sales. Regardless of what people say honey is selling slow in stores and = overall shelf space is dropping to a few feet in many stores. Many = grocery stores will not carry creamed honey as the sales are to slow to = keep shelf space. *Chain* Grocery stores expect a certain amount of = return for each foot of shelf space. When the return does not come in = then the honey space is given to a product which will produce the = return. The low price honey on the shelf is ALWAYS the best seller and = NEVER in danger of losing it's shelf space. The *low price honey* is = almost always from another country. It is TRUE that selling your honey = yourself is better than selling bulk most of the time but when wholesale = bulk honey is at the price it is (but will not stay) today selling in = stores is a break even deal for those buying honey on the open market = for .75 per pound and selling 1 pound jars to the grocery stores for = 1.25 per jar. I got a call after I returned from Savannah from a store = which their honey supplier had went bankrupt. She said the beekeeper had = been selling 1 pound jars for 1.25 and would I do the same. She was not = happy with the quote I gave her. If you turn to the honey market = information in ABJ or Bee Culture and look at the low price for = wholesale one pound jars you will see the low price IS in the 1.25 to = 1.30 U.S. price range. For case of 24 jars. Why sell in grocery stores = George says.? Because .probably the one most common thing we do besides = look at each other while we pump gas in our cars is go to grocery = stores. Approx. 99% of people in the U.S. shops in a grocery store = every week. Now I know George Imirie gets several dollars a pound for his honey as = he has posted on Bee-l which is great but George is not moving the = amount of honey the three bankrupt bee farms in Missouri were moving. = Niche markets ARE best but limited. Most beekeepers are private people and handle what ever cards they are = dealt quietly. Please be aware the American Honey producer is having = trouble making ends meet. Sincerely, Bob Harrison=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:14:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: What are the Bee of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <200202071414.g17EEaA15781@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L pb wrote: Meliponi are not found in northern Mexico or the United States. Reply: Exactly, so what are the petrogliffs on the rocks and early pottery showing bees with pollen sacs dating back to pre-columbian times? What where the bees Ferdinando de Soto saw in his travels in the Mobile area i.e. lets say Ga, Ala and Fla panhandle? Why are the bees in the upper mountains surrounding Tucson different. and remember that when looked at our bees with DNA keyed out like the small black of San Diego to be different then others in USA and said to be caucasian similar type, but not called caucasian? But then small black would be similar. Again, just what are the bees of America? And again africanized by USDA definition can mean 1 mating of the queen as so-called AHB, but what of the other 90% and also if work shows something is different, was that the assumption for AHB without looking futher? Were is the backup of independent comparison to European bees? Did our country (USA) ever put samples side by side and compare what is in the USA to Europe and Africa samples to see what came from what? I myself IMPOV don't think this has ever been done, but I could be wrong. Why independent data bases established around USA and not one big one, especially if we are all one industry and the bees all came from one place? or did they? Food for thought. Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:35:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202071400.g17E0TA14945@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Bob is right in that Dr. Shilling's talk was worth remembering. He said > since the turn of the century the American Farm has become 17X more > productive in spite of a 80% loss of farmers. Beekeeping however saw its > big productivity changes in the late 19th century and hasn't see real > productivity change since. His point was to forget "specialty" honey as > the future, there are coming true specialties such as Turkish honey which > people will see as truly special. Dr. Shilling put our future in coming > up with new ways to produce more honey cheaper than anyone else in spite > of our high labor costs, just as the American Farmer has done. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:41:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202071419.g17EJsA15972@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As the closing of bee labs has been a reoccurring theme as an industry at some point we have to fight under "Plan A" but also develop "Plan B". Some of the breeding and pollination studies are by nature very long term and to simply cut them off would be short sided. Ongoing research projects need to be listed and plans put in place to move these to either private or university settings. Maybe there exists projects that "citizen scientists" could get involved in and at very least provide cheap labor.