From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:46:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF7449094 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXt010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0203B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 131751 Lines: 2847 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:45:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bumble Subject: Cell measurement Basics. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Being something of a newby this whole business of cell measurement has got me somewhat confused. How are cell diameters measured and is the thickness of the cell walls also measured. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:39:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bumble Subject: Re: Melting frames: Salvaging wax and honey(off topic) In-Reply-To: <200203061732.g26DZFZp000769@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mrs. J.A. Gussow & Mr. H.E. Gussow - Tucson, stated: > Chlorine is an Element on the Periodic table of Elements, symbol CL... Sorry to be a pedant but as this list is scientific, and chemistry was my first love, I feel I must state that the chemical symbol for chlorine is Cl and not CL (which would be a strange compound of carbon (C) and some other as yet undiscovered element (L). Also be careful not to ever confuse Sodium Chloride (NaCl) table salt with Sodium Chlorate (NaClO3)(small three) which is used as a weed killer and has led to deaths in the past from people assuming that they are the same thing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:17:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: A new thought on extractor design? In-Reply-To: <200203071949.g27ITJP5015042@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:53 AM 3/8/02 +1300, you wrote: >I was thinking about the design of the extractor, and wondering >whether it could be made more minimal. >Surely someone has thought of this, or isn't it such a good idea? Actually It's mostly been though of. The beekeeping museum at Wooster has a similar extractor that spins the frames and the container. It didn't have tapered sides so the honey pretty much sticks to the sides until it stops spinning. What would the advantage be to removing the honey from the top of the container rather than the bottom? -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:51:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians Bob quoted *Peter Edwards* on viruses, not me. Please use full names! I don't see how we, as beekeepers, can "control" the viruses vectored by mites! Even if varroa didn't have viruses it seems fairly obvious that high levels of the parasites weaken the colony and cause a failure of brood to hatch. If seven or eight mites are *living* on a pupa, it seems hard to imagine that it would develop normally. I think that honey behavior has to be "modified" through breeding so that they rid themselves of the bulk of these critters. PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:00:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Hive color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote > Because NZ is south of the equator and everything is opposite there. > Just kidding. Just a lesson in geography. The website is actually an Australian one from the State Department in Queensland. A long way from New Zealand. Calling an Australian a New Zealander is like calling a Canadian an American because you all have similiar accents. Back on the subject. I will be talking with some Queensland Departmental people this coming week so will ask the background to the statement. Regards Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 04:41:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Railway 3 47 50 High > Jahns 2 48 50 Medium > Meglis 10 40 50 Medium & Low > Falks 6 44 50 Medium > Kievers 1 49 50 Low > Dixons 4 46 50 Low Continuing to reply to my own replies... Revealed in this table is another reason that tracheal testing is not as simple as testing for varroa (not that testing and interpreting tests for varroa are simple). Varroa testing for the most part is simply a matter of counting mites that fall off a specific number of adult bees when washed in alcohol or found on 100 pupae. (There are more subtle measures, such as used in SMR evaluation, but that is beyond our present scope). Tracheal infestations, however, have numerous confounding aspects: one aspect, considered a primary one, is the percent of bees in a hive carrying mites, another is the number of trachea infested in such bees, a third is the number of mites (total) per bee, and I suppose a fourth is the age of the infestation in the bees (eggs or adults). Another consideration is whether the mites are actually alive or dead, since dead mites remain in a bee until it dies, even if the bee was treated with menthol or formic. The strain of bees under consideration will affect the mix of the above factors observed and also their significance. Some strains of bees, for whatever reason, carry lower mite loads and some of those can suppress mites to very low levels. Other strains cannot and can get extremely high mite infestations. Given the mix of sub-families in a hive, individual bees in a hive may vary widely in their susceptibility to carrying mites, and that can be reflected in some hives having a mite or two per bee while others have many mites per bee, and other hives having bees with many mites along side sister bees with low or zero loads. In the above example Railway has 6% of the bees with at least one mite, and the lab has indicated that each tested bee had on average a 'high' infestation. That would be several trachea with several mites each. Dixons has 8% of the tested bees with fewer trachea with fewer mites affected. If I had to guess, I would assume that the yard with a higher percent of bees with more mites in more trachea of these bees would be more at risk, but as I said, in this case we could see no losses that were obviously due to TM. In view of these ruminations, it seems to me that having examined as many bees as we did, not finding one mite is reassuring. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. In particular, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES WHEN REPLYING. Contributions including quotes that are not absolutely necessary to understanding will usually be rejected WITHOUT NOTICE. FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:13:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dadant Subject: Tri-State Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bob, Please remind everyone that the Friday night banquet, scheduled for = the Hawkeye restaurant, was changed to the Heilig-Meyers building at the = Keosippi Mall in Keokuk, IA. Thanks, Dadant & Sons, Inc. 51 South 2nd St. Hamilton, IL 62341 Phone (217) 847-3324 Fax (217) 847-3660 email: dadant@dadant.com Website: www.dadant.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T & M Weatherhead wrote: > Just a lesson in geography. The website is actually an Australian one from > the State Department in Queensland. A long way from New Zealand. Calling > an Australian a New Zealander is like calling a Canadian an American because > you all have similiar accents. Trevor, Biggest error this side of the black stump. Block had a bit of the bludge. Thanks for the fair go. Bill Truesdell (who had two Aussies working for him for two years and should have known better.) Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:48:11 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Watson, Owen" Subject: Re: A new thought on extractor design? In-Reply-To: <200203081447.g28DugJR012176@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >What would the advantage be to removing the honey from >the top of the container rather than the bottom? As the container would be on its side, the "top" would be at the end. -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:24:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Howe Subject: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know anything about thymol for varroa.? My research shows that it has proven effective in Europe where it is sold under the brand name "Apiguard" but I've not seen it in the U.S. Is it available? Does it work? John Howe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 02:54:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/02 4:25:42 AM GMT Standard Time, johnhowe@IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > Does anyone know anything about thymol for varroa.? My research shows that > it has proven effective in Europe where it is sold under the brand name > "Apiguard" but I've not seen it in the U.S. Is it available? Does it work? > Effective is a term laden with shades of interpretation. I think the word 'fairly' should probably go in here as well. It is nowhere near as uniformly effective as the front line pyrethroids (unless you are one of those areas where resistance is rife). Figures as low as 50% control have been quoted, but normally a good bit better than that. My interpretation of the figures is that it is a good rotational option to prevent build ups of resistance, but somewhat unsafe for your bees if used as the primary or even sole treatment route. The unevenness of varroa kill is the issue here. It can also taint combs and honey. I can still smell it in some colonies bought 6 years ago from a thymol treater ( he used too much though!) and the last honey crop before I bought the bees was unsaleable at a table honey price. Controlled dosages keep this in check, but your senses get used to thymol and sensitivity gets reduced, so that you can think your honey to be normal, whilst a lay person not exposed to it can detect the smell and taste. So, in my opinion, useful as a PART of a treatment regime, but not best applied as a single treatment option. (But then none are) Murray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 06:44:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: thymol ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Howe" To: Sent: 08 March 2002 23:24 Subject: thymol > Does anyone know anything about thymol for varroa.? I have been using thymol and some oxalic acid since varroa was found here in 1997 - I do not use any other treatment. See: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm Peter Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:19:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. I've used thymol in the form of Apiguard for two seasons. So far it's been perfectly effective under my conditions, with a generally low level of mites. Current natural mite fall is running at about one mite per day per hive. the smell of thymol can be very noticeable in the hives on a warm day during treatment, but it has never so far been persistent. That being said, I wouldn't want to use this or any other varroa treatment without monitoring, and without at least having alternatives available if mite counts began to rise. I wouldn't want to rely on thymol alone in a situation where my hives were being swamped by drifting bees from collapsing hives in the area. Given the worrying report on Apistan in January's 'Bee Culture' (http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/months/02jan/02jan1.htm), which suggests that it affects drone fertility and queen size, I'm just glad I've never had to use it. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Processing cappings Hello again, Thank-you to those who replyed about the maxant extracter and the cowan uncapper. I am getting the extracter probably this week, if weather and time permitts. They are not sure if they want to sell the uncapper yet, but I liked what I saw about them. Now I have another question. What is the best way to get the honey out of the cappings after I have taken the off, and what is the best way to melt them down? I have been looking though the archives, as well as about a dozen beekeeping catalogues that I have here. I like the idea of a spinner for the cappings, as the honey does not get heated. The cappings come out dry, and then later are melted down. As someone mentioned though, that makes two jobs, instead of maybe running it all in a melter and being done with it. From those who have experiance with setting up beekeeping operation, how would you do it were you to do it again. I should mention that i have about 40 hives, I may double it this year, or more, but not quite sure at this point. And I don't have piles to spend on equipment. I will have the machine to get the honey out of the combs, and will get something to get the cappings off... But what is the best thing to do with the honey and cappings after that? Thanks for the help. Regards, Carmenie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:41:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI JOHN, I JUST GOT HOME FROM ANR(AGRICULTURE AND NATURAL RESOURCES) WEEK AT MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY BEEKEEPING WEEKEND. ONE OF THE SPEAKERS WAS DR. KEITH DELAPLANE(THIS MAY BE SPELLED INCORRECTLY) FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA. HE HAS BEEN WORKING ON THYMOL IN THE FORM OF "APIGUARD" AND THE CHEMICAL IS IN THE APPROVAL PROCESS. HE HAS A WEB PAGE AND MORE INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE THERE. COLEENE ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Swarm caught today Well the swarm season has started in the middle GA area. I found a nice swarm this afternoon hanging about 4 feet off the ground on a small tree. I put a hive box on the ground and raked them in a cardboard box then transferred them to the hive box. The girls that missed the box hit the ground lined up and marched to the hive box so I guess I successfully got the queen. I hope this means that a necter flow is about to begin. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:03:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: thymol Thymol is not approved for use in U.S. Please don't use unapproved substances! I have encountered it and I can concur that it has a very vile odor, not like garden thyme at all. I am not surprised to hear that it would linger in hives. Wax absorbs readily odors. We have had good luck rotating apistan and coumaphos. I would like to substitute formic acid for coumaphos, but I don't know if it is readily available yet. It tends to eat up the packaging. Formic is very acidic and has an acrid odor, but evidently it doesn't taint honey. PB ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:31:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Murray said of thymol (Apiguard)... > So, in my opinion, useful as a PART of a treatment regime, but not best > applied as a single treatment option. (But then none are) It is useful for a break in regime, but I would not rely on it for anything more than an interim measure. There is a downside to it as well.... I used it in some nucs and the sun decided to shine more strongly than normal for a couple of days... the increased evaporation caused them to abscond. The smell was very strong at the time and there is still a whiff of it in the empty boxes. Apart from the Apiguard foil trays, you can use crystalline thymol in evaporator frames such as.... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/fraknoframe.html or the http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/brooksknight.html Or formic acid my be used in similar frames with evaporators... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/nassenheider.html Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:34:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > Thymol is not approved for use in U.S. Please don't use unapproved > substances! I have encountered it and I can concur that it has a very vile > odor, not like garden thyme at all. I am not surprised to hear that it would > linger in hives. Wax absorbs readily odors. It also may cause allergic reactions if in honey, so there is a potential for great harm if used incorrectly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:11:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Using the Archives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Allen, I have tried repeatedly to access the archives ( http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html ) with no luck. My browser just tells me that this page can not be displayed. Any tips?<<< I wonder if anyone else has had trouble with the archives? If so, write to me direct at allend@internode.net (not the list) and I will see what I can do to troubleshoot the problem. I this case there could be a number of problems. Your ISP could have DNS problems. Ask them The other, interesting possibility is that there could be content blocking software running somewhere -- either on your computer or your own machine. Remember we routinely use 'mating', 'sex', 'genitals', 'race', 'colour', 'feces' and lots of other taboo words. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:31:35 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Processing cappings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carmenie Stemmler wrote: > > What is the best way to get the honey out of the cappings after I have > taken the off, and what is the best way to melt them down? Now that you have a Maxant extractor, why don't you try to find a maxant capping melter. Maxant doesn't make them anymore, but Rick Thibeau at maxant might know of a used one. Consists of a water jacketed tank, with an infared hood above. The honey doesn't have to be over heated to melt the honey. The wax comes out a beautiful yellow. Best part, all your cappings are melted at the end of the day. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:29:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Processing cappings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 100 hives and let gravity and the sun do the separating, by letting the cappings fall from the uncapper into a black painted tank that is moved to the sun. Not as efficient as a spinner but far less costly and adequate for your 40 hives I would think. The loss of honey is compensated for the minimal investment in equipment. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:11:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello moderators It's been drawn to my attention that the poem could be simply referenced by the URL. I've adopted this suggestion, which will I hope satisfy you. Also I've taken the opportunity created by the delay to clarify some minor parts. cheers R Karen Oland wrote: > The processing >power required for locating a small, bee sized object against either the sky >or the ground, at a distance, then calculating the best trajectory to get >there before the competition would be much greater than that required for >flying up in the sky and avoiding the (much) larger bird objects there. Karen's approach assumes a bee works like, or at least includes, a computer. A famous ivy league prof showed up at Berkeley in 1965 insisting (in a very tired German accent, as tho' she had little hope that the msg would sink in) "the brwehn is NOT a compughter". What has been learned about brains since then, and the evidence we've been touching on about bee instincts (innate behaviour patterns), learning, planning ;=} all suggest to me that computer analogies are worse than useless to explain these biological processes. I hasten to admit that no alternative idea has been much developed. All the more reason to press on with new thinking, rather than continuing down the blind alley of (usu digital) computer analogies for mental processes. > If >this excess brain power were being used for much of anything else, one would >expect the drones to have figured out how to quit getting tossed out of the >hive in the fall, by now. In my usual lazy cyberevasive way I've not searched the archives, but I wish to dispute this anthropomorphism (esp gynomorphism). We do not know, and quite probably we cannot tell, what pains the drone suffers in the exits we observe each autumn. You may think they're suffering, and Karen as expected scorns them for supposed lack of brains (or cleverness, or cunning) which she implies could, if they didn't lack it, get them a continued role inside the colony. But that is all mere speculation, projecting onto a v different species her mental processes. The idea of a willing sacrifice for the greater good is near the heart of the system of ethics on which the USA was founded and my little country has largely thrived. By far the most decent empire of all history functioned basically to spread that code of ethics and its religious basis. One of the better statements (by a Nobel prizewinner) of that spirit of self-sacrifice is: The White Man's Burden by Rudyard Kipling http://www.boondocksnet.com/kipling/kipling.html The concept of the *supreme* sacrifice is even nearer the heart of the Christianity-based civilisations (now struggling against novel forces as well as some reinvigorated oldies). Why shouldn't the behaviour, if not any awareness thereof, be built into the noble honey bee? We're all aware that the small minority of drones that achieve copulation are gutted & killed by that act; they give their lives for the greater good. We flatter ourselves that cleverness needs a fancy brain like ours. But {1} the evidence that the mind is produced by the brain is far weaker than most assume - even v clever Berkeley profs like John Searle {2} for the social bee (ant, & termite - wasps get blacked out around here :=} ) it is the society that behaves; the individual amounts to v little {3} the processes of coordination of a bee colony are barely glimpsed. Even a flock of birds wheeling in unison, in v close formation, represents a severe challenge to the 'we're just computers' assumption, and even to the 'we include a computer or two' assumption. {4) something like R Sheldrake's morphogenic field theory - which actually goes as a school of thought back thru Sir Alister Hardy's magnificent 1965 'The Living Stream' - is needed to explain very many biological phenomena which cannot be explained by computer analogies or indeed by any purely mechanistic view of life. For all we know, the drone dies in ecstasy, glad to sacrifice his life for the good of the species. Alternatively, I can imagine that he dies in pain & regret, but is aware that this is his destiny and he is grimly proud of it. Then again, he may have no idea of any such lofty concepts or feelings; I have insisted we don't know. As I watch them die, I reflect that many of these magnificent animals have moved over the whole Auckland region, nomadic among several colonies. Their functions remain very largely unstudied - which would not be the case if science really were a male-chauvinist arena like the female-chauvinist racket that some are trying to pervert it to. Both within the hive and between colonies, the drones' functions are almost entirely unknown. And we certainly have no way to share their feelings - if they have any. It is idle to talk of a drone that has got clever so as to loiter on past autumn; mind you, the bee-DNA sequencing that A Dick sooled us quietly onto may lead - deliberately or accidentally - to such a wonky drone ;=} but far be it from me to query the Wall St Jungle let alone gangs like du Pont, Dow, etc. in which some readers may own stock. Having tossed in the squib to start this thread, I reckon we should be humbly accurate about how exceedingly little we know of bee thought (for want of a better term). I say they plan; don't give me any hypotheses about how their physical equipment doesn't fit them for thought. And don't project onto them human feelings or values that they may not have. Start with the facts. We'll probably turn out to have little idea how to explain them; but the facts come before theory in science. Can our observations of bees on various time-scales suggest to us whether or not they plan? R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:50:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =20 I've also have used thymol, but not as a inorganic chemical. I = personally prefer the organic method of using the herb thyme, which has = from 20 to 40 percent thymol as its main essential chemical. I also = surround my hives with 2 of my favorite herb thyme, French and German. = The bees love it , and so do I. Just 2 to 3 sprigs of thyme in your = sugar syrup does wonders George seferiadis =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carole Hawirko Subject: Paraffin Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any experience with dipping hive boxes, bottom boards = etc. in paraffin wax, beeswax or a combination of the two, as an = alternative to painting. Would this cause any problems in the hive = especially in the cold winter weather when condensation is a problem? We = were also wondering if this method might help protect equipment from = disease particularly AFB spores? Any information would be appreciated. Carole Hawirko=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:46:10 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Paraffin Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is a very common practice in New Zealand, for both timber preservation and for the salvage of woodware (not frames) from hives with AFB. http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/disease/man08.htm includes a description of the use of paraffin wax dipping in the context of AFB sterilisation, including a simple plan and the (important) time/temperature parameters required... You can also get a bibliography re: paraffin in the NZ context from an autoresponder: paraffin@beekeeping.co.nz Nick Wallingford http://www.beekeeping.co.nz Sunny Tauranga, east coast of the North Island... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:36:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Peter and All, PB wrote: I don't see how we, as beekeepers, can "control" the viruses vectored by = mites!=20 I agree with PB on the above point but Dr. Carrick of the UK has been = able to get hives to live and in her opinion thrive while infested with = varroa when viruses are controled.=20 When Dr. Shiminuki introduced PMS to us he aluded to the fact bees might = be able to live with varroa if viruses could be controlled. I will keep = a open mind to my friend Dr. Carricks work and hope others will also. PB wrote:=20 Even if varroa didn't have viruses it seems fairly obvious that high = levels of the parasites weaken the colony and cause a failure of brood = to hatch. If seven or eight mites are *living* on a pupa, it seems hard = to imagine that it would develop normally. I agree completely Peter but Dr. Carrick has hives which are "living = with varroa". Controlling viruses is possibly beyond the expertise of = many beekeepers and might be too expensive in medicine and labor for = the large beekeeper. I have got a general idea of the work Dr. Carrick = is doing but would be afraid I would not get everything right if I tried = to explain so she needs to reply.=20 If you search the archives of the Irish Beekeeping List from last year = you will find posts between myself and Dr. Carrick in which she = explains her work.=20 I would have loved to rejoin the Ibl lists and others but Bee_L is about = all I can *hopefully* keep up with going into my busy time of the year.. PB wrote: I think that honey behavior has to be "modified" through breeding so = that they rid themselves of the bulk of these critters. I agree. Having read all posts posted since I have been gone I will ad the below = information asked in a couple posts by PB. And others. Brushy Mountain 2002 catalog claims thymol will be available in the = fall. The head of the Westlaco Bee lab told me at the ABF convention in = Savannah they are doing research on formic acid gel and hope to get the = product on the market. The Tri State meeting was fantastic. My friends at Dadant did a = wonderful job and the meeting was the most organized of any meeting I = have been to in quite a while.=20 Final numbers we believe will make the registered attendance of the = meeting greater than the ABF and the AHPA meetings this spring with = around 450 beekeepers on Saturday. The meeting was the largest turn out = for a state meeting I have ever attended.=20 I enjoyed meeting fellow Bee-L members. Non Bee-L beekeepers continue = to put down our list (as they do the whole Internet) but I believe I = have become a better beekeeper by joining Bee-L. I certainly do not know all the answers to today's beekeeping = questions and would be skeptical of the beekeeper which says he or she = has all the answers. Sorting through the various opinions and research = is part of the learning process. Sincerely, Bob Harrison . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:31:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Bee thinking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have read the posts on this subject with some amusement to say the least of it. 'Here we go again' I said to myself, trying to understand every other species in our terms. Why not enjoy their company without trying to understand how they do things, for understand it we never will IMHO. We can learn what they do but not how they do it. I would imagine that we have as much chance of understanding how bees do things as we would have of understanding extra terrestrial visitors. The rule books they live by (bees and ETs) are so different to ours that such an understanding is impossible. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:23:53 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: Paraffin Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bula from Fiji Nick, For what reason do people not treat frames? By the way, do you know the good people at AgriQuality? John Lewis Fiji Islands Nick Wallingford wrote: > > This is a very common practice in New Zealand, for both timber preservation > and for the salvage of woodware (not frames) from hives with AFB. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Paraffin Wax MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In questioning paraffin dipping, I have received comments back that it makes the equipment heavier. Does anyone have statistics as to how much weight of wax stays with each hive body in dipping? Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com email office: raymond.lackey@baesystems.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:52:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Agnieszka Olszanska Subject: bumblebee distribution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Colleagues I am looking for researchers working on bumblebees and cuckoobees in SLOVAKIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, LUXEMBOURG, EAST FRANCE, BELGIUM, SWITZERLAND. I would need some data on species composition, category of threat, distibution and protection level (Red Data Lists) Thank you very much Agnieszka Olszanska ********************************************************* Agnieszka Olszanska Institute of Nature Conservation Polish Academy of Sciences al. Mickiewicza 33, 31-120 Krakow, Poland phone: +48 12 632 11 01, 632 05 49 ext 102 fax: +48 12 632 24 32 e-mail: olszanska@iop.krakow.pl, agnieszko@wp.pl mobile phone: + 48 602 235 822 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:25:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Paraffin Wax ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lackey, Raymond" To: Sent: 11 March 2002 12:25 Subject: Paraffin Wax > In questioning paraffin dipping, I have received comments back that it makes > the equipment heavier. Does anyone have statistics as to how much weight of > wax stays with each hive body in dipping? Although I have not weighed any boxes, my impression is that they are considerably lighter. This would be because dipping them in hot wax drives out all of the water in the wood and replaces it with wax - which weighs less. I found that temperature was very important - if the wax is too cool then you end up with a coating of wax on the boxes, but if you get it right then the box will feel like dry wood and look as though it had not been treated with anything. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:39:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: New study on cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A new study on cell size appeared in Apidologie, Volume 33 He studied varroa reproduction in Apis mellifera scutellata. His conclusions: >Although reproduction of Varroa sp. is affected by the space between the developing bee and cell wall, reducing cell sizes as a mite control method will probably fail to be effective since the bees are likely to respond by rearing correspondingly smaller bees. from: Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? by Stephen J. MARTIN & Per KRYGER ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:58:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Allen writes: >I can see you and I are looking at things from very different perspectives= and this is quite fascinating. I am a commercial beekeeper. Losing one = hive sixty miles away, especially if it is already over the hill, is of = academic interest to me only....I am looking at the big picture and = thinking of entire yards, rather than individual hives. Peter Borst replied in part: "OK. Say you are trying to determine levels of varroa in several apiaries = as economically as possible. You took 175 bees per apiary, that is 175 per = let's say 400,000 bees. Very low levels of infestation simply would not = show up at this sampling rate. Plus, I think taking samples at the edge of = the cluster is a mistake." Peter, Allen also had another data point in the orginal post which would = also give me a high level of comfort with his conclustions - 4.5% winter = loss. With that winter loss you know you are not pushing the economic = threshold for varroa or tracheal mite problems. I too are a little = uncomfortable with the sampling method for varroa but winter survival data = indicates no varroa problem. Taking bees from the edge of the cluster is = exactly what is suggested for nosema and tracheal mite sampling but not = for varroa. I would expect varroa to move to the center of the cluster = over time and stay there so the bees at the outside of the cluster would = have fewer varroa mites. If the washing of the samples had found varroa, = I would be concerned that there was a problem developing but the wintering = results say otherwise. =20 An interesting discussion. Thanks Allen for giving us this live example = to consider. blane pb ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:25:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Winter inspection, was A Question for the Statisticians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Blane writes: >I too am a little uncomfortable with the sampling method for varroa but winter survival data indicates no varroa problem. Unless we have something to compare it with, samples in the middle of winter mean next to nothing. I assume he did this in March, though he doesn't say. In my experience, this is too early to assess winter losses. Many hives fail during the spring build-up period, presumably because the bees are all too old at this point and they just die off too fast before new bees are available. Perhaps they are incapable of raising very much brood if they are too old. Without sampling the center of the cluster *and* the edge, we will never know if sampling the edge is effective in detecting *any* levels of varroa. Remember, his numbers were consistently zero. But that proves only that there weren't varroa at the edge, which I wouldn't expect there would be. I would expect them in the warm center of the cluster. These are some of the reasons why I would not approach the problem the way he did, even if the 175 bee per apiary is statistically large enough (I would still opt for a sample size around 250 -- how else can you detect levels as low as 1%? If he is just looking for dead-outs and colonies with varroa levels of 30 -40%, he may find them this way. I would still rather sample 3 or 4 hives (10% of 35) correctly and extrapolate the data from this. Doing a correct sampling of 10% of the hives will give a pretty good idea of the infestation rate of the apiary, in my opinion. It involves opening fewer hives, too, although it involves killing more bees (750 to 1000). Again, unless we are going to compare this to data we have collected previously, or data someone else has compiled -- in itself, it won't mean much unless the levels are high. Then you better be thinking about what your treatment options are. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:06:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Honey Samples Needed for Research Projects, Can You Help? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: I had an interesting conversation last week with Marcia Cardetti,Director of Scientific Affairs, U.S. National Honey Board. I called her about a note on the NHB web page. I found that she needs honey samples for several research projects. I'm sure that there are folks on this list who can supply just what she needs. Apparently, she's not gotten much response from the web page announcement. She has several projects, and she can provide sample containers, etc. Here's her comments: Antimicrobial Properties of Honey: Basically, I'll take whatever you can get. I am particularly interested in horsemint and rabbit brush for antimicrobial testing, but definitely not limited to those. In fact, I need multiple crop years and multiple locations of varieties I have already tested. Any sample for antimicrobial testing needs to be raw (minimal, if any, heat treatment) and kept in the dark (like in a covered box) after collection and before shipment. Light can inactivate the enzyme. I can either give you 250 cc sample cups or just ship at least a pound to me in whatever you have. Please be clean about collecting samples for antimicrobial work. (She really needs several 250 cc samples from different years, locations, rather than 1 large sample - Jerry) Human Sensory Analysis/Antioxicant Analysis (smell, taste, for varietal honeys) I am also having sensory analysis done and antioxidant analysis conducted. I don't need anything special done there for antioxidant testing. If for antimicrobial testing I get something entirely new, I use some of that sample for antioxidant work. Sensory - we will be deciding what varieties we wish to do. I'll let you know later about that. For that work, I need 2 lbs of a representative sample of that variety, not the best crop that has been produced in human history. (Here she does need a good amount of honey for the tests, rather than a number of small samples - Jerry) Economic Adulteration Economic adulteration - any honey will work here as long as it hasn't been doctored (obviously). The researcher needs 2 lb samples for this. If that is too much, he may settle for a pound. (The researcher needs to be able to certify that the honey is unadulterated. This ought to be easy for honey from a hobbiest who extracts their own honey or a commercial beekeeper who bottles some of their own product. He'd also like to get some samples from overseas. The idea is to be able to provide some benchmark/reference honey samples so that the natural variation can be established) For all of these, please label as to variety, scientific name (of the principal plant source) if known, state (of for samples from outside the U.S., province, etc.), crop year and beekeeper (be sure to include name, phone, and/or e-mail for the beekeeper) If you have any questions, please contact me (Marcia). Don't contact me (Jerry), I would just pass the information along to Marcia. Contact her directly to obtain sample containers, information about how and where to ship, etc. Here's your chance to help some of the research that has been talked about on this list. These projects will greatly benefit by getting samples from many different areas and years. Thanks for your help. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: New study on cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Knowing that not everyone has access to Apidologie, I have included a small excerpt here: >Comparison of V. destructor reproduction in A. m. scutellata, EHB and AHB > >The reproductive ability of V. destructor in this study was compared with that from previous studies (Tab. I). The order in which the mites are able to reproduce successfully is: > >A. cerana drone >> A. m. scutellata drone = European Honey Bee drone >> A. m. scutellata worker = EHB worker > Africanized HB worker >> A. m. capensis "pseudo-clone". > >Therefore, the Korea haplotype of V. destructor is able to reproduce within A. m. scutellata colonies at levels similar to that found in EHB and the tolerance shown by AHB towards the mites (Medina and Martin, 1999) appears to be lacking in A. m. scutellata. Comment: Many reports have come out of South and Central America that varroa is not a significant problem with the Africanized bees there. Several theories have been promoted. One was that varroa were less capable of reproducing in the smaller cells that African bees make (5mm). Another, more recent theory is that the varroa in that region is not the same "type" as in the temperate areas. A third, which more successfully explains the fact that varroa do seem to be able to reproduce successfully in AHB in Texas, points to climate factors such as heat and humidity. Martin did detailed studies of A. m. scutellata and scut x capensis crosses to see how varroa reproduced in these colonies compared to data collected by other researchers with EHB and AHB. Results confirm that varroa reproduces much more successfully in drone cells of any species than worker cells of any species. And that they reproduce as well or better in scutellata cells than they do in European or Africanized bees. Despite the fact that capensis bees had the lowest varroa reproductive success rate in his tests, Martin reports "dramatic increase in mite numbers (10 000+) in colonies in the Western Cape region of South Africa (Allsopp, 1998, 1999), an area mainly occupied by A. m. capensis." pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:11:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Winter inspection, was A Question for the Statisticians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Peter, I would never even try to sample for varroa during the winter. It is just = too much messing with the cluster to get a proper sample from inside the = cluster. To take samples for other purposes i.e. tracheal mites and = nosema and also wash the samples for varroa - why not wash them since you = already have the samples. If any varroa were found in such samples I = would be doing some research and expect to do proper sampling of every = colony in the yard as early in the spring as reasonable with the expectatio= n that treatment would be needed at that time. Now my experience. I have not been using the strip treatments for close = to 7 years ( can't remember exactly how long anymore ). I have done drone = brood removal, used formic acid gel, and all my colonies ( both of them = right now ) are on mesh bottoms. Currently trying SMR stock and am very = impressed with it but that is a different discussion. In that time I have = lost many colonies to varroa ( remember that is not all that many colonies = since I only have 2 - 4 colonies ). They all died early in the winter - = most didn't even make it to January. Now these colonies had pretty = substantial varroa populations but if the colonies survived to March they = made it into the spring and I was usually able to keep them going until = the next late fall/early winter. Some needed treatment of some kind in = the spring but drone brood removal usually did the trick at that point in = terms of keeping them going until late November or December. That is why = the 4.5% winter loss indicated lack of problems to me. I have had = tracheal mite losses into this time of year but in that case more colonies = were dead by mid January than died in March again limited experience but = suggestive of a pattern. How are things going at Cornell? The beekeeping class at the U of MN was this past weekend and they had = over 100 in the class. A good bunch of folks eager to get into bees. = Spring can't be too far away! blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:19:44 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Paraffin Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Does paraffin dipping make boxes heavier?" As Peter Edwards says, there would be some weight reduction through the driving off of the moisture in the wood - I'm not sure if that has ever been quantified. My beekeeper's 'ready reckoner' at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/convert.htm includes the "rule of thumb" that you need about 16.6 kg of paraffin to treat 100 full depth boxes - that would equate to 166gm per box - just under 6 oz per box... I'd reiterate the importance of the wax temperature (for both preservation and disease treatment) to avoid the 'wax envelope' effect. When done correctly, you can't feel the wax on the surface... Nick Wallingford Tauranga, NZ nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:26:57 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Paraffin Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Lewis [mailto:lewis@IS.COM.FJ] > For what reason do people not treat frames? The thinner timber and more delicate joints of frames mean that when treated with sufficient heat/time in paraffin, they tend to become quite loose and sloppy - the timber might shrink away from the nails/staples with the heat? As well, in NZ wooden frames are wired with generally 3 or 4 horizontal wires (see http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/wiring.htm) - if they get put through paraffin wax treatment, they'd need to be re-wired (or have the wires tightened) before putting new foundation in. I'd say the cost/effort involved is not worth it for our situation... Nick Wallingford Tauranga, NZ nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:11:45 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick wrote > "Does paraffin dipping make boxes heavier?" > > As Peter Edwards says, there would be some weight reduction through the > driving off of the moisture in the wood - I'm not sure if that has ever been > quantified. With my background in timber, I find it hard to reconcile how the heating will drive off all the moisture in the wood when the timber is at Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) which is normally around 12 -15 %. I know from the temperatures that we used in timber drying kilns that it was very hard to get that last bit of moisture out, particularly from about 8% down.. Also there is the heat transfer factor. How long would it take to transfer the heat from the surface to the inside of the timber? I would not dipute that there could be absorption of the wax by the timber as a piece of timber at EMC has a lot of space in it from the previous loss of free and bound moisture during seasoning I have no reason to doubt that this wax treatmENt will help combat AFB. There was research published from Argentine (I think) on temperature time realationship for killing the AFB spores. Even if they were not killed, any spores on the box would be enveloped by wax and the bees would not be able to get at the wax to start an infection. > I'd reiterate the importance of the wax temperature (for both preservation > and disease treatment) to avoid the 'wax envelope' effect. Can someone give me references to show that the wax treatment preserves the timber? There is a reference out of the USA where it says it does not work and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence in Australia to show that the wax dipping does not preserve boxes. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:21:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: New study on cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > Many reports have come out of South and Central America that varroa is not a significant problem with the Africanized bees there. Several theories have been promoted. The theory that I heard was that the Varroa destructor was the Japanese haplotype which is less virulent than the Korean haplotype. This having been directly introduced from Japan via Apis mellifera hives taken to South America. When the Africanised bee hit the USA, it came in contact with the Korean haplotype and thus its progress was slowed. FWIW Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: hive color In-Reply-To: <200203071158.g27BwGHX003249@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> Herve wrote; >> I read on the Queensland industry department web site A large part of Queensland is in the tropics, with temperatures in the mid to high 30C range. Applying data from their website to Canada where 35C is not as common as -30C, is asking for trouble. I agree with your point about white not being best in both summer and winter. I bought some good quality paint that had been coloured dark green, in error, mixed it with gray of the same type of paint( all for $10). My hives are turquoise. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N 80W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:36:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: thymol & and paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob First I like to say I am not a scientist , nor a doctor of any degree.I = am just a regular guy who loves bees, and who uses his God given = intuition, with a little common sense. I have been using thyme for about = 3 years now, with as far as I know, not having any problems.I use it = with my sugar syrup , and as a paraffin wax. In the sugar syrup I boil a = cup of hot water, and add 2 to 3 sprigs of thyme , and a tablespoon of = Chamomile dried buds. Let it infuse for about five to six hours, strain = and pour into a gallon of sugar syrup with a pinch of sea salt. In the = paraffin wax I use beeswax and light mineral oil.(use only food grade = mineral oil , you can get this at any pharmacy) Mix it to a soft butter = consistency, and add 4 to 5 drops of thyme essential oil. Use this on = the bottom of the frame ears, and where it rest. Also on the top & = bottom edge of the hive box. You rarely have a problem removing the = frames or hive box. The bottom board., I have a Formica sheet that I = apply a light mineral oil with 3 to 4 drops of thyme essential oil in = it, plus my thyme plants that I have around my hives,and that is all = their is Bob.Of course this is my personal view , and I could be way out = in left field with this, and some day it will all come crashing down = on me. Time will tell=20 George .=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:30:10 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit intresting line of discussion . I run 800 odd hives ,two years ago i made up 200 supers from pinus radiata , this was soft fast growth sap wood ,not heart wood ,as its much cheaper. i dipped and painted about 70 of them, just dipped another 80 and put out the rest in their bare state. I'm just starting to catch up on my maintenance now and have found the dipped and painted boxs are in as new condition, the just dipped boxs are still sound but the outside surfaces have become quite weathered and look scruffy redipping and painting when still hot with water based paint brings them back to new look.( i think the paint acts as a sun block and stops uv damage to the surface layer) the undipped boxs are full of rot and are falling to pieces,the ones with a little rot spot can be dipped and painted the rot goes hard in the wax which seals out the air and moisture which fungus needs to grow and the heat of the wax kills the fungus spores in the wood theseboxs will last another 5 or so years. i live in a very humid wet warm climate during the sping and early summer we then have a dry late summer autumn with a wet cold winter , moisture is with us most of the time and the only way to seal all the end grain in a box is to dip it in parafin. I dip all my lids, bases, split boards(these foam a bit) queen excluders (cleans them up a treat and prevents rusting) and feeders. Shaun Cranfield Auckland new zealand ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 02:23:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: New study on cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/02 9:26:42 PM GMT Standard Time, queenbee@GIL.COM.AU writes: > The theory that I heard was that the Varroa destructor was the Japanese > haplotype which is less virulent than the Korean haplotype. This having > been directly introduced from Japan via Apis mellifera hives taken to South > America. When the Africanised bee hit the USA, it came in contact with the > Korean haplotype and thus its progress was slowed. > African/africanised bee point not related to varroa in particular. One look at a distribution map of scutellata/africanised bees shows that this slowing and stopping is not a North American phenomenon, no matter how special they think their case to be. The different haplotypes of varroa causing it to slow in the US seems to me to be just a coincidence rather than a crucial fact. There are limiting latitudes in all ranges where this bee is found, beyond which, for reasons not yet fully understood, it does not establish a stable population, and 'die back' takes place over time if introduced. If the varroa type were the crucial factor the africanised bees would have progressed much further south in Argentina than they ever have, despite having had far longer to do it. Even in their native range you still have the cape bee hanging on right at the extreme end of the continent, just outside the scutellata limit, and despite numerous opportunities to do so, they have never come right up Africa and invaded Europe. Some latitude linked factors, possibly including seasonality, is at play causing these bees not to prosper much outside latitude 35 N or S. I dont pretend to know what it is, but it could serve as a warning to those who would buy such bees and take them outside this range as to the potential problems which could be encountered. And that would open another whole can of worms linked to another thread, and I dont want to go there again. Murray ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 02:08:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/02 9:17:51 PM GMT Standard Time, queenbee@GIL.COM.AU writes: > I would not dipute that there could be absorption of the wax by the timber > as a piece of timber at EMC has a lot of space in it from the previous loss > of free and bound moisture during seasoning > We purchased a substantial quantity of boxes from a defunct neighbour some years ago, and they had been habitual wax dippers (more like frying than dipping). There were also a quantity of their boxes undipped. When kept dry there is no doubt that the dipped ones are markedly heavier, but their weight stays constant and there is no absorbtion of water whilst in the countryside and wet conditions, which can take some time to dry out again. I have never measured this weight difference although it does cause some grumbling with a member of staff who gets deceived by it. Personally I dont think it important, and those boxes treated that way seem to weather just the same as those only treated with creosote or similar. Well painted seem to last in best superficial condition in our climate as the surfaces do not get grazed at by wasps. From the bees point of view it seem to be of little consequence. Murray ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 03:48:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Winter inspection, was A Question for the Statisticians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I too am a little uncomfortable with the sampling method for varroa but winter survival data indicates no varroa problem. > > Unless we have something to compare it with, samples in the middle of winter mean next to nothing. I assume he did this in March, though he doesn't say. Actually I did say, and we do have something to compare it to. We have done winter spot checks for years and years (although not exactly this way). Everything is documented at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ and easily located by a Google site search, but I suppose that is beside the point. The point is that our spot checks in October showed a maximum of 10 mites on a 24+ hour Apistan drop test (from what I am able to find in my notes at this moment). We are merely double checking here, and watching for fluvalinate resistant mites which, if present, we would expect to have put a few hives -- at least -- into the 100% infested region. The major purpose of the checks was to look for tracheal and to tally early winter loss. > In my experience, this is too early to assess winter losses. Winter is over in a few more days on March 20+/-, so it is not too early to spot trends, and we can see what our losses from fall and most of the winter are. Spring loss is another matter, and spring weather is a huge factor in further loss. If we had seen huge winter loss, we would be expecting the trend to continue into spring, barring unusually good weather in March and April, but, so far, our losses seem on the good side of normal compared to Feb checks in other years. Having said that, though we just had our coldest day of the year a few days ago, and a week of bitter weather. > Without sampling the center of the cluster *and* the edge, we will never know if sampling the edge is effective in detecting *any* levels of varroa. Remember, his numbers were consistently zero. But that proves only that there weren't varroa at the edge, which I wouldn't expect there would be. I would expect them in the warm center of the cluster. That is a very interesting hypothesis. The fact that we found a varroa mite on one of three samples from a neighbour's bees using the same sampling method brings this into question -- in my mind at least. Someone with sufficient varroa should test this, but our levels (established by late October Apistan drop board sampling) are so low that I could not do so. Since our bees break cluster from time to time during winter, and we sampled during mild weather, I should think that the bees would have been reasonably well mixed. How do you propose that varroa mites migrate to the centre of the cluster? By jumping from bee-to-bee? That is interesting to speculate, and although it does not seem totally improbable to me, I have seen nothing to substantiate the idea. > per apiary is statistically large enough (I would still opt for a sample size around 250 -- how else can you detect levels as low as 1%? Who cares about 1%? Not me. > If he is just looking for dead-outs and colonies with varroa levels of 30 -40%, he may find them this way. I would still rather sample 3 or 4 hives (10% of 35) correctly and extrapolate the data from this. At our recent research meeting in Calgary, it was pointed out that, in Manitoba, a late October varrroa level of 12% was not considered fatal -- if I understand correctly -- so if you are correct about only finding that a few colonies have 30-40% varroa levels with the sampling we did, that would be *exactly* what we are looking for -- and our test was then, in fact, correctly designed. This is assuming that a mid-February sample is equivalent to a late-October sample, an assumption I think we can question, but which should be reasonable close. > Doing a correct sampling of 10% of the hives will give a pretty good idea of the infestation rate of the apiary, in my opinion. It involves opening fewer hives, too, although it involves killing more bees (750 to 1000). And that is if you don't count the loss of hives that is proven to result from such invasive action justified only by a mere hypothesis. > Again, unless we are going to compare this to data we have collected previously, or data someone else has compiled -- in itself, it won't mean much unless the levels are high. You've got it. High levels is *precisely* what we were looking for. We don't care much about low levels and we are not doing academic work. We are doing IPM. We are watching for levels that demand treatment soon. > Then you better be thinking about what your treatment options are. We are always thinking about that, and are currently planning spring Apistan application. However, with our present results, we are now thinking that we may be able to consider softer options for this spring than anticipated -- subject to further testing and consultation. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:21:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: AHB Range Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" see current map of AHB in USA: http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm just California: http://www.stingshield.com/californ.htm -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:24:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: New study on cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray, Some latitude linked factors, possibly including seasonality, is at play causing these bees not to prosper much outside latitude 35 N or S. I dont pretend to know what it is, but it could serve as a warning to those who would buy such bees and take them outside this range as to the potential problems which could be encountered. reply: Wouldn't you say this could be true with EHB's? Or in other words why don't the bees of Europe move down into africa? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:01:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Shaun and All, Shaun wrote: queen excluders (cleans them up a treat and prevents rusting)=20 I have never heard paraffin used in this way before. Would not = you get a layer of wax buildup like dipping a candle after awhile or is = the process only done rarely? Could you describe your dipping tank and the temperatures you use. I = have been told if the wax is not smoking the wax is not hot enough. How do you keep the old paint etc. out of the wax tank?=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:16:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Winter inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In my experience, this is too early to assess winter losses. Hard to realize, but in two weeks we will be opening every hive to add protein patties and medication. In two months, we will be in the midst of our prime splitting season. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ Read about what is happening on my farm. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: IPM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At our recent research meeting in Calgary, it was pointed out that, in Manitoba, a late October varrroa level of 12% was not considered fatal Right, in fall that might not be too high, but in early spring a hive with a level like that might have a difficult time building up. I don't know how many of those 12% (approx 2400 mites) would still be there in spring. >High levels is *precisely* what we were looking for. We don't care much about low levels and we are not doing academic work. We are doing IPM. We are watching for levels that demand treatment soon. What would be high level in March? What about April? Without figures to compare how can one say it is high or low? Is 12% high in Spring, or can you skip a Spring treatment with this level? You detected zero mites. We assume that there are mites, though, but we don't have any idea how many, right? I would think 12% would be a pretty high level in April and would warrant some sort of Spring treatment to prevent a crash in mid-summer. I had one yard of 16 that was not treated all year (2001). August levels were 2 to 30 ( approx. 1 to 10%). By October, they all crashed. Not one was strong enough to winter. IPM is *not* wait until they get till 50% and then treat. This may be already too late, particularly if virus Parasitic Mite Syndrome is already in place. How can a hive build up if it is riddled with parasites? IPM (as I have been taught it) is about determining safe levels of pests and treating with whatever means necessary if these levels are exceeded. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Winter inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Hard to realize, but in two weeks we will be opening every hive to add > protein patties and medication. Already there in these parts, although the season is way ahead of normal this year. Regarding protein patties and medication, I recall your recipe, but specifically regarding the medications, do you mix mediciations in the the patties or medicate separately? I have colonies that are on their second patty (will stop after this as fresh pollen is coming in on the warm days). But I've been wondering if I might have missed an opportunity to feed and medicate in a single vehicle by mixing the medications in with the pollen patties. My spring regimen is a gallon of Fumidil-B medicated syrup (as recommended by Diana Sammataro in her latest book) and a spring dusting of TM according to label instructions. Label issues aside, I wonder if these medications could be incorporated into a pollen (protein) patty. Comments/Opinions/Facts? Aaron Morris - thinking thoughts of spring! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:28:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Winter inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Regarding protein patties and medication, I recall your recipe, but specifically regarding the medications, do you mix mediciations in the the patties or medicate separately? We don't use any medication in the protein patties. I know of no completed studies that relate to its effectiveness, although Beaverlodge is now doing work to evaluate Tylosin in protein patties. We use extender (grease) patties for oxytet once in the spring and have found them very effective. > I have colonies that are on their second patty (will stop after this as fresh pollen is coming in on the warm days). We feed protein even after the pollen starts coming in and try to time the beginning to be no sooner than three weeks (one cycle) before reliable pollen. > ... a gallon of Fumidil-B medicated syrup (as recommended by Diana Sammataro in her latest book) We test to see if fumigillan is necessary before using it. We almost never have seen a need for it. Locally, we are told that a drench of fumigillan (one cup - normal mixture in syrup) on the cluster is as effective, and much less costly. > Label issues aside, I wonder if these medications could be incorporated into a pollen (protein) patty. They are working on it. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:47:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Right, in fall that might not be too high, but in early spring a hive with a level like that might have a difficult time building up. I don't know how many of those 12% (approx 2400 mites) would still be there in spring. I guess we don't know that and personally I would not be comfortable with that high a level in many hives. > What would be high level in March? What about April? Without figures to compare how can one say it is high or low? Is 12% high in Spring, or can you skip a Spring treatment with this level? Currie did work on this in Manitoba. Once there is a significant amount of brood, the 12% phoretic measured in the broodless period becomes about 2% phoretic, apparently. (I am deducing that from the fact that 2% in september has been shown to be 12% at the end of October after all the brood hatches) Adony is not entirely satisfied with this and thinks we need to replicate the work here in Alberta on a larger scale to try to narrow down the thresholds. > You detected zero mites. We assume that there are mites, though, but we don't have any idea how many, right? Yes, but I have a very good idea from previous tests and I have posted the details here in this thread, and the parent threads. We did drops at various times throughout the past year and think we have a pretty good handle on the levels. They are much lower than we would have anticipated, and that is one reason we went looking for resistant mites in this last pass. > I would think 12% would be a pretty high level in April and would warrant some sort of Spring treatment to prevent a crash in mid-summer. I had one yard of 16 that was not treated all year (2001). August levels were 2 to 30 ( approx. 1 to 10%). By October, they all crashed. Not one was strong enough to winter. Absolutely. 12% phoretic with brood in the hive is well above our threshold. Frankly, we don't like to see more than 100 mites in even one hive in a yard when doing a 24 hour Apistan drop. (But we have sometimes -- apparently with no ill effect). > IPM is *not* wait until they get till 50% and then treat. Again, we have different persectives. You are thinking about individual hives, we are thinking about individual yards. In 2,400 hives one or two or 100 individual hives (think hot spots) might get to that level due to errors in treatment, susceptibility, or other factors without putting the whole outfit at risk or even justifying immediate action. However, if we are aware of this, we are likely to initiate action. > IPM (as I have been taught it) is about determining safe levels of pests and treating with whatever means necessary if these levels are exceeded. That is exactly what we are doing. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:04:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Alternating medications arithemetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone answer if alternating medicines works any better than serially exhausting the use of one followed by another? If not all of the mites are killed by applying a medication and some mites survive and give rise to the strains of resistant mites, how does alternating medications help. Help me with the arithmetic. It would seem that if two meds are both, say, 99% effective then the order of treating for mites would not matter, serial or alternating treatments. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry mentioned an interesting link recently in another conversation, and I thought I would pass it on here. http://www.beesource.com/pov/hayes/abjaug85.htm I am not entirely convinced that the results shown there are relevant in every case, but it is very illustrative, and could justify some very interesting further study. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Queen Excluders (Hayes Study) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: I looked at the Hayes study. Sincere effort, but the skunk predation and queen loss preclude drawing conclusions. The bottom entrance hives with queen excluders were either killed or impacted by skunks. Only two survived, and I suspect that their low production (30 and 41 lbs) was as likely to be a result of the skunks in the yard. If one colony was killed, two heavily preyed upon, I doubt that the skunks left the remaining two alone. Regardless, none of the other yards had this severe problem. If you drop the queenless colony from comparison of the top entrance/excluder hives versus the controls, the average yield is only a couple of pounds different, certainly not statistically significant. Finally, we too have noticed plugging up of the brood chamber when queen excluders were put on bottom entrance hives - with one important difference. During the day when a heavy flow is on, the field bees dump nectar into open cells in the brood nest. Over night, they move this nectar upstairs. We have lots of digitized data of brood/honey/pollen areas in commercial colonies -- the honey bound brood nest observation depends on time of day that the colony is opened and inspected. Finally, although I don't think one can draw any real conclusions from this study - too few hives and lots of skunk problems at the site with bottom entrances/excluders, I know from our data that excluders cause lots of changes in a colony, at times causing the queen to suspend laying, and in some cases, balling of the queen and supercedure. I'm not a fan of excluders and we could use some good studies. This one made an honest effort, but too many confounding variables (skunks, queenless, etc.). Expect 25-50% coefficient of variations (or relative standard deviation) on honey production among hives at a given site - based on years of our studies. To get the C.V. or RSD, divide the mean or average by the standard deviation, multiply by 100. I recommend no fewer than 12 colonies per site for a study like this - and would toss in a couple of spares. Elevate the hives on sawhorse stands to eliminate the skunk problem. Toss out colonies that go queenless (AND MARK YOUR QUEENS AT THE START OF THE TEST). Hopefully, you will have 10-12 viable hives for comparisons. Oh, also, be sure to pull all of the hives together before the trial, rank them by population strength and brood nest size, then randomize and assign hives to each site. The objective is to have the same mix of weak, good, and strong hives at each location. Anything less means that you can't make any comparisons. I don't advocate trying to equalize hives, it never really works. Other than that, this test is one that any beekeeper with sufficient hives can do. Oh yes, you really do need at least two sites for controls, two for bottom excluders, two for top excluders. Without replication of sites, you have no idea as to whether the effect is due to the excluders or to some other variable such as blossom availability (or as happened in the cited study, skunks). I offer these as suggestions for improvement, not as a criticism of what was tried. One of those 20/20 eyesight, when looking back. Unfortunately for the authors, Murhphy's Law prevailed - but the results are suggestive and they clearly show where the study can be changed to improve the design. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:44:03 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi bob the parafin wax dippingtank i use is approx 4' by 3' by 3' it has a fire box underneath with a flue comming up thru the middle terminating about a foot above the tank. the tank is about two thirds full of wax i light a fire underneath to heat the wax . when dipping new and non infected gear i heat the wax to approx 120 degrees centigade and dip for 5 minuets ( AFB gear needs 160 degrees for at least 10 mins, i give it 20 ). i wear heavy gloves and use one of those slideing adjustable pipe wrench thingys to grab and lift the gear out of the hot wax. some paints will bubble just scrape off while still hot and repaint. as for paint and crud in the wax melter a bit of mesh folded up and nailed to a length of batten can be used to scrape the bottom of the melter periodically. as for a build up of wax on excluders the wax is too hot to set immediately so it drains off quite readily a bump on your pile of fire wood as you remove your excluders also nocks off any debris that may still be clinging to you excluder. one of the first commercial beekeepers I worked for used a 44 gallon drum over a fire pit as a dipping drum. Sincerely, shaun cranfield ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Queen Excluder Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: On second thought, rather than replicate treatments at paired sites, I think I'd put all three treatments (control, top, bottom) in equal numbers at each site. That way, the within site variables will be the same - and the excluders will be the single variable that has changed. I'd intermix the hives, etc. Don't bunch them in groups by treatment. Then, replicate over a couple of more sites (again with each site having all three treatments). Just a thought. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:11:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry for thinking on the fly. Final comment. This issue could be answered once and for all in one season. Let's say that we get beekeepers all across the country (minimally U.S. and Canada, since we use similar equipment) - but no reason beekeepers in other countries couldn't participate. Each beekeeper picks (say 30 hives at a site - just a guess, I'd have to take a harder look at the stats) 10 controls, 10 bottom entrance/ excluders, 10 top entrance/ excluders, intermixed - colonies randomized by population size, etc. If each beekeepers did one yard, and if we had 100 beekeepers all over the country doing this, we'd have 100 different sites/regions. That would be 3000 hives, 1000 for each treatment (control, bottom, top). Everyone would weight colonies at beginning and end of trials, make similar observations. The dataset would speak for itself. The stats folks would be ecstatic. 1 production season and we should be able to get a real handle on this. Any takers? Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:13:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do you get wax to 160 degrees centigrade? Will it not flash? Lionel North Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:08:26 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Winter inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > We don't use any medication in the protein patties. I know of no completed > studies that relate to its effectiveness, although Beaverlodge is now doing > work to evaluate Tylosin in protein patties. As I recall I think Doug McCutcheon did some work with putting fumagillan in patties. I recall getting some figures from him when it was being discussed here in Australia. Around 1986 there was something published by Tibor Zabo, I think, re feeding fumagillan dry. As a footnote, we never went ahead with the idea of putting fumagillan in patties mainly because of the costs of importing fumagillan. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:55:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: New study on cell size In-Reply-To: <200203121344.g2CD2SIp025882@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >Wouldn't you say this could be true with EHB's? Or in other words why don't >the bees of Europe move down into africa? Wide variety of possible reasons for that, but the most credible I have come across is that EHB races are supposedly of an older type than the central African types, and that scutellata is in all probability one of the most recently evolved. Its ways of converting energy give it a competitive advantage over EHB's, but only within its normal latitudinally defined (reason unknown) range. Outwith that its survival rate is lessened. Europe is well outwith its range. However, in low latitude areas where there is no AHB to outcompete it, the EHB will do reasonably well, but in such areas where AHB is already present they will fail to establish, hence no sustainable natural incursions in Africa. The profile of pests they need to deal with also differ in Africa and EHB is not adequately attuned to the threats it meets. Not many army ants or honey badgers in Europe. EHB races, assuming they are of considerable antiquity, have also become very diverse with local selection pressures giving rise to local races and sub races, and the comparatively restricted range of many types such as iberica, cecropia, anatolica and a whole host of others underscores this supposition. Such selection to meet regional needs inevitably means that these qualities are unlikely to be the same for a relatively alien environment, such as tropical Africa, hence, irrespective of age of race, one type is not likely to be able long term to prevail in anothers native range. The only exception to this is the new mutation possessing a key advantage invading territory where it can get the better of the extant stable local types. In the Americas, despite assertions to the contrary, Apis mellifera is not thought to have existed prior to its introduction by Europeans, hence you have virgin territory in many ways and not all the races and sub races patterns from the old world are present due to lack of both sufficiently diverse imports and competition. Thus a reasonably adapted bee to southern US conditions, usually ligustica, is relatively easily supplanted by a better adapted beast, scutellata, and in the north it is likely to be the reverse. Potentially confusing subject, in which a whole heap more data is needed before many reliable conclusions can be drawn. My belief though is that the extent of invasion in South America has highly significant implications for North America. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:58:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Paraffin wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > How do you get wax to 160 degrees centigrade? Will it not flash? The flash point of paraffin wax is 199 deg centigrade. You do need a sturdy, accurate thermometer, as well as a way of putting out the fire if it does happen... Nick Wallingford Tauranga, NZ nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:05:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al boehm Subject: small hive beetle and dysentery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Listers We here in southwest North Carolina got struck by the small hive beetle late last summer and fall. Last week I opened hives for inspection and 4 of my 17 hives seem to have a mild dysentery condition with feces splatter on the front of the hives. The inside seem clean but I still suspect nosema. Could this be caused or carried by the SHB as I have not had this problem before. Has anyone with SHB seen similar conditions? Ill get out the microscope this week and check the feces for spores of Nosema. feedback of anecdotal observations welcome Al Boehm Columbus N C ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 01:51:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Mass Experiment: Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... This issue could be answered once and for all in one season. Let's say that we get beekeepers all across the country ... Everyone would weight colonies at beginning and end of trials, make similar observations... 1 production season and we should be able to get a real handle on this. Any takers? Sure. Will you design the experiment and post it here so we can see exactly what we have to do? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:59:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Hall Subject: Re: Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" The Hayes study does look very interesting; I have a couple of questions, however: - Isn't there a risk of the QX becoming a 'pollen excluder' - that is, the workers will plug the supers with pollen? That might be just as annoying as the 'honey excluder' problem, especially for comb producers. - What are the dimensions of a drone escape? I assume one can drill out a standard cone, but to what diameter? Martin Hall London, UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:45:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: New study on cell size In-Reply-To: <200203130500.g2D3q7KF022459@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Murray McGregor wrote: >EHB races are supposedly of an older type than the central African types, and that scutellata is in all probability one of the most recently evolved. Where did this information come from? Hepburn (1998) has them originating somewhere in modern day Iran, with the European and African types branching from there. Brother Adam assumed honey bees came to Europe from Africa. pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Blane writes: >This issue could be answered once and for all in one season With all due respect, this is one of those things that will *never* be answered, for the simple fact that bees deal with things like queen excluders and bottom supering, and frame size, etc. differently *depending of honey flow conditions* which vary from one locale to another and vary from one year to another. By the way, I know two beekeepers in this area who have about 300 hives each. One uses queen excluders and doesn't wrap his hives. The other doesn't use queen excluders but wraps his hives with tar paper. They both make about the same amount of honey, I assure you. My opinion, formed over almost 3 decades and by talking with hundreds of bee keepers, is: you have to find your own way that works. pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:27:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Queen Excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Peter, Blane and All, Blane writes: >This issue could be answered once and for all in one season Peter wrote: =20 With all due respect, this is one of those things that will *never* be = answered, for the simple fact that bees deal with things like queen = excluders and bottom supering, and frame size, etc. differently = *depending of honey flow conditions* which vary from one locale to = another and vary from one year to another. =20 Like Peter I doubt the issue will ever be resolved once and for all. Peter wrote:=20 By the way, I know two beekeepers in this area who have about 300 hives = each. One uses queen excluders and doesn't =20 [ There is one difference between the two methods above. One beekeeper = has to deal with brood in his supers and at times queen loss and the = other does not.=20 [ =20 A bigger issue with excluders is why is why ALL the worlds excluders = are of a poor design. Let me explain. In American bee equipment there is a bee space of about 5/16 above the = frames but little or none below them as they hang in he hive body. When = a beekeeper puts a wood frame excluder between two hive bodies , the = space between the excluder and the frames above is about right; the = space below is too deep, more than bee space. the wider spacing = encourages the bees to build comb beneath he excluder. When a metal excluder is used , the space below it is about right but = the space above he metal excluder is incorrect and he bees fasten the = excluder to the bottom of the frames. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:46:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Queen Excluders In-Reply-To: <200203131412.g2DECZHX004044@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:03 AM 3/13/02 -0500, you wrote: >>This issue could be answered once and for all in one season > Peter wrote: this is one of those things that will *never* be answered, for the simple fact that bees deal with things like queen excluders and bottom supering, and frame size, etc. differently *depending of honey flow conditions* which vary from one locale to another and vary from one year to another. It is precisely for this reason that the answer cannot be established using a few sites in one region. If we ran lots of sites, each serving as its own reference and treatment, and if they are spread across very different geographic areas, climates, forage types, etc., we have a very good chance of statistically resolving the issue. However, by RESOLVE I don't mean that we will necessarily show that one brood nest/excluder combination (Top versus Bottom) is better or that excluders hinder honey production. If across 100 sites and 3000 hives we get NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, then Peter is correct, other variables are more important. But if the excluder truly does make a difference, this approach should be able to detect it. And, we can do more advanced analyses to look at variables such as climatic zones, etc. The example of two guys with 300 hives showing no difference dispite different management approaches simply says that the management strategies being compared in that area did not make a difference in honey production - my guess, both were ok as far as the bees were concerned. In that case, floral availability or some other factor would have driven honey production. But, compare two beekeepers with similar management strategies in two very different regions (say New York with the Peace River valley, and you will see a difference in honey production. Now, have both of these beekeepers try the queen excluder trial, and we would have a better idea of whether excluders have an effect, but we still need more sites to really address the question. I'll draft a plan. Cheeers Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:04:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alternating medications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you apply a particular medication regularly the organism at which it is aimed will be subjected to strong selection pressure and is likely to become resistant sooner rather than later. Resistance comes with a cost and that cost is usually expressed in diminished reproductive success. That doesn't matter to the organism so long as it is the only reproducer on the block and the medication continues to be applied to eliminate its rivals. However, if the medication ceases then non resistant fellows will have a competitive advantage and will out reproduce the resistant types. Resistance is not only useless in the absence of the medicine to which the organism is resistant; it is a positive disadvantage. Thus the number of generations of the organism that is not subjected to the medicine is important. Alternating between two, or preferably more, medicines and not treating at all if possible, therefore leaving long gaps between treatments of any sort is likely to prolong the efficacy of all the treatments longer than if used to exhaustion serially. Resistance is always present and is never lost. The trick is not to encourage it, except in bees v varroa. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:00:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Queen Excluder-Beyond the Wit of Man MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with the posts which say that it depends on the flow and weather conditions as to whether an excluder is needed. In a heavy flow the pressure of activity in the Super will keep the Queen down below. Here in Scotland our "interrupted"coastal weather system and therefore flows are so variable that we need excluders. However I don't think excluders hinder the bees at all - I have an excluder which is made up of a 4" x 8" piece of zinc excluder tacked over a 3" x 6" hole in a cover board - the bees produce the same amount of honey with this excluder as they do with the full area Hertzogs. As far as bee space is concerned I conclude that Queen Excluder design is one of these items which is truly beyond the wit of man. If you keep the wires flush with the bottom of the perimeter frame the bees have the correct space under the excluder (top bee space hive) but there is now space above the excluder (perimeter frame depth) and therefore more than a bee space in total - the bees see the excluder as transparent because it is full of open slots. If you only use the wire sheet you crush bees as you replace the super- not possible to get it right. But then they say the most difficult part of invention is defining the problem - so come on Inventors - I've done the most difficult part ! Alan Riach Edinburgh, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:27:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Queen Excluder-Beyond the Wit of Man Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alan Riach writes: > However I don't think excluders hinder the bees at all Greetings, I am sure the moderators do not want us to get into a long pro and con discussion on queen excluders. I think the point is, you can make them work if you want them and you can get by without them if you don't. In California, nobody I knew used them. We just supered up and took honey off. There was occasional brood to deal with, which we usually just moved down when removing the supers. Now, I use them on every hive because I am frequently replacing the queen for experimental purposes and I would much rather have her confined to two boxes than running loose in four or five. In fact, we are thinking about putting her in one box. How many people have had experience keeping the queen in the first story only? Of course, I would have ten excellent combs in there so they could raise the maximum amount of brood. Alan also wrote: >Queen Excluder design is one of these items which is truly beyond the wit of man I love this! This was eminently well put! I have given up worrying about how to reduce burr comb and designed a device for removing it. It consists of a hive body with four heat lamps in it. I stack up a drip board, an empty body, the wire queen excluder, and place the heat lamps on top of this. The lamps melt the burr comb in about 3 or 4 minutes, which drips into the drip board. I keep swapping the excluders and the melted wax drips through a hole in the drip board into a pail. I cleaned almost 200 this way in a couple of days. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:47:44 -0000 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob & Liz" Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians I have got a general idea of the work Dr. Carrick is doing but would be afraid I would not get everything right if I tried to explain so she needs to reply. If you search the archives of the Irish Beekeeping List from last year you will find posts between myself and Dr. Carrick in which she explains her work. I would have loved to rejoin the Ibl lists and others but Bee_L is about all I can *hopefully* keep up with going into my busy time of the year.. Just to correct one matter Dr Norman Carrick is a man. He was the main lecturer at the Federation of Irish Beekeepers Associations summer course last year at Gormanstown. Ruary Rudd. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:18:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Queen Excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst [SMTP:peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:27 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Queen Excluder-Beyond the Wit of Man Hello Peter and All,=20 Peter wrote: There was occasional brood to deal with, which we usually just moved = down when removing the supers. =20 Not a option when the supers are a different size unless you leave the = complete super. =20 When using the same size super and hive body the problem today is mixing = frames which have been exposed to chemicals into supers. In the fast pace of a large operation using fume boards many times brood = is not spotted and is brought into the honey house. Because many times = in Missouri the temperature is in the 90 to 100 F. range when July = supers are removed and the honey house temperature is similar the brood = from many frames emerges filling the honey house with thousands of = confused bees. Sincerely, Bob Harrison=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:10:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Harbo smr queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Beekeeps, Just wondering what some of you guys found out this past year concerning the Harbo queens. Seems to me that, some of them I have are way behind on brood and overall bee numbers this spring. I was wanting to cross some of them, but now am concerned about the above effects. Is this only a problem with mine? Any comments? preacher