From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:46:48 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFE849096 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sk010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0203C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 105707 Lines: 2343 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Harbo smr queens >Just wondering what some of you guys found out this past year concerning the >Harbo queens. Seems to me that, some of them I have are way behind on brood >and overall bee numbers this spring. >I was wanting to cross some of them, but now am concerned about the above >effects. Is this only a problem with mine? Any comments? >preacher No, I have the same problem. The best queens I had came from my mongrels and the daughters of the All-Americans I got from Texas. Very best in mutual disapointment, Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: Re: Harbo smr queens In-Reply-To: <200203150209.g2F23cHb028918@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Of my dozen hives the one that is way out ahead of the others this spring was a Harbo with a 3 pound package last year. The 3 other hives with Harbo queens appeared (when I went into the hives today) to be doing well relative to my other hives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:49:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Tanalised timber Does anyone have any information on the safety of tanalised timber in hive construction? I seem to remember some discussion, but cannot find anything in the archives. Peter Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:05:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Literature Searches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After everyone has tired of reading the BEE-L archives at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/, a visit to http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/newsearch.asp might be interesting. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:26:37 -0600, Bob & Liz wrote: >If 5.3mm is the natural average then A.I.Root and others sold foundation which was a smaller unnatural size. The term "Five cells to the inch" ( used in all old bee books) could never be interpreted as 5.3mm. When I talked to Dadant in 1985 about cell size . They still had the molds for the old *900* foundation. They figured the cell size at around 5.0mm to possibly 5.1mm. We are cutting out the old frames that have accumulated over the last few years and hope to have that done within a week or so. Of interest to all, possibly is this: I came across one with aluminum foundation and measured it out of curiosity. The distance across 20 cells was 10mm exactly. That gives 5.0mm cells. I don't know the history of that comb. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:00:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Harbo smr queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just wondering what some of you guys found out this past year concerning the > Harbo queens. Seems to me that, some of them I have are way behind on brood > and overall bee numbers this spring. If we are going to compare queens, I think we need to name the supplier, the quality of queen purchased, and when it was purchased. The quality of the queen rearing and the season can affect the quality of the resultant stock as much or more than the strain of bee. Moreover, pure Harbo breeders *will* have low brood rearing levels. That is a given. Harbo says so himself. Harbo recommends no more than 75% of his Harbo SMR blood in queens used to head production hives. Pure Harbo stock is sold only for the purpose of raising hybrid daughters. Also Artificially Inseminated queens often do not perform as well or as long as naturally mated queens. We need to also consider that Harbo stock is *not* selected for other desirable traits, only SMR. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:52:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Harbo smr queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Crutchfield wrote: > Hello Beekeeps, > Just wondering what some of you guys found out this past year concerning the > Harbo queens. Seems to me that, some of them I have are way behind on brood > and overall bee numbers this spring. > Hello Dennis and All, We will find mixed reviews of the SMR queens. As stated before on this list , we will have different environments for the genes to function. The results may vary a great deal and over time through good selection in your area, you will have good queens. There is no magic bullet in nature. It takes time and very good selection. The problem is expectations that we carry and in most cases we never get all the results that we want. The battle is ongoing and it takes patience to get bees that work well in your area. It has taken me 2 years with the Russian queens- X- my stock to winter well and start fast. I will continue to bring in fresh stock. Enjoy the trip because it will be a long one. Best regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:56:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Harbo smr queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WITH REFERENCE TO THE STATEMENT BELOW, I ATTENDED MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY'S BEEKEEPING PROGRAM LAST WEEK. SMR QUEENS WERE DISCUSSED AS PART OF AN IPM PROGRAM TO REDUCE CHEMICALS IN THE HIVE AND HELP WITH VARROA CHEMICAL RESISTANCE. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH SMR QUEENS IS THEY ARE NOT PROLIFIC. THAT IS ONE TRAIT THAT IS CURRENTLY BEING WORKED ON. SINCE SUPPRESSION OF MITE REPRODUCTION(SMR) IS A SPECIFIC GENETIC TRAIT AND NOT A STRAIN OF BEES, THE TRAIT CAN BE BREAD INTO OTHER STRAINS AND THERE BY OVERCOMING THE PROBLEM WITH LOW BROOD NUMBERS, ACCORDING TO THE SPEAKER. COLEENE "Seems to me that, some of them I have are way behind on brood and overall bee numbers this spring." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:54:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The distance across 20 cells was 10mm exactly. That gives 5.0mm cells. Ooops! I meant '10 cm exactly', not 10 mm. That (now) gives 5.0 mm cells. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:45:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: Bits & Pieces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Posts with *too many quotes* or which otherwise do not meet the guidelines (see http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/) are normally just deleted by the moderators. However, if a moderator has time, we sometimes salvage what we can. Tonight I have a few minutes and was cleaning out the 'wastepaper basket'. Here are some of the better rejected posts -- edited to meet the guidelines: --- From: "Denis" Subject: Re: Re: New study on cell size Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:24:24 -0700 >> Many reports have come out of South and Central America that varroa is not a significant problem with the Africanized bees there. Several theories have been promoted.<< They are experiencing quite a problen with varroa in Nicaragua from what I hear from a friend of mine that runs 300 hives there --- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:39:03 -0500 From: janet montgomrey Subject: Re: Alternating medications arithemetic There are at least two theories on the alternating vs running one treatment out One is alternating which is supposed to prolong the use of both treatments. The down side of this is you may select for resistance to both at the same time and wake up to a surprise that both treatments no longer work. Cross resistance may also be obtained quicker. The other is running one treatment until it fails and then switching to another-- at least you know where you stand. I would not offer a theory on whether the end points would be the same. If we were considering a fixed population like mites in apple trees I would tend to run a treatment out, however in a mobile population like other insects and mites on bees that theory will probably result in apiary #1 having resistance to one chemical and apiary #2 having resistance to another chemical.. The drifting or swarm bees will then result in both apiaries having full resistance to both chemicals when neither apiary received both chemicals You notice that I say treatments, rather than chemicals, as anything you do to the whole hive that biologically selects I consider a treatment including screened bottom boards, cell size, essential oils etc. all will be selected against biologically. The trick is to prolong all the treatments as long as possible with out selecting to STABLE resistance, which is when ALL the pests have fully resistant genes (RR). When this happens the treatment can no longer be used to clean up a pest. As a side note on resistance and the use of low doses-- if one uses the correct dose af a chemical to control, lets say 95% of the pest, a certain % of the survivors will be fully resistant (RR), probably 1/2 of them will be partially resistant (Rr) and 1/4 will not be resistant or susceptible (rr) and may have escaped treatment by receiving no or a sub lethal dose. In this example the resistant RR critters will be the survivors plus the rr escapees. If low doses are used the RR and Rr and escapes are left. These will multiply to more quickly due to their larger numbers and produce increased numbers of the R resistant genes in the population, thereby increasing total resistant genes in the population. Using as many non chemical controls as possible reduces the pest thresholds and allows fewer chemical applications ultimately prolonging their usefulness. You may notice where my thoughts are-- use as many biological and environmental controls as possible including screened bottom boards, grease patties, essential oils etc. and reserve the chemicals for clean up of heavier infestations identified by surveying the pest populations Hopefully we can by time until bee genetics catch up and only chemicals will be needed to "clean up" a outbreak. If we mis-used a chemical and stable resistance in developed in the pest it will not be efficacious for clean ups. Sorry for the long message but it may stimulate some thoughts, comments, disagreements etc., Newbe to the group after a 2 year absence Dan Veilleux western NC USA > Can anyone answer if alternating medicines works any better than serially > exhausting the use of one followed by another? --- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:58:01 +0100 From: gcaboni@tiscali.it Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20thymol?= To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu hello peter in italia l'utilizzo di acido ossalico e timolo e una normale prassi da tanti anni ti consiglio di non fidarti troppo del solo acido ossalico perche noi abbiamo visto che le api tollerano bene un solo trattamento in inverno e con famiglie che coprono almeno 4-5 telai di api invece in estate e possibile utilizzarlo una volta al mese,ma con parecchi casi di orfanità e solo in caso di emmergenza. se non ti è chiaro qualcosa contattami caboni giuseppe gcaboni@tiscalinet.it > Does anyone know anything about thymol for varroa.? --- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:50:32 +0100 From: gcaboni@tiscali.it Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20Thymol=20apiguard?= To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu hello robert ho molto piacere che tu stia utilizzando dei prodotti di origine naturale per la lotta alla varroa,ma ricorda che non sono sufficenti per non avere problemi l'anno succesivo, in italia noi chiamiamo il trattamento con l'apiguard o con l'apilife var http://www.chemicalslaif.it/ trattamenti tampone che DEVONO ESSERE INTEGRATI ad un altro tipo di trattamento da eseguirsi in assenza di covata,esempio l'acido ossalico. spero di averti aiutato ciao caboni giuseppe gcaboni@tiscalinet.it --- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:42:46 +0100 From: gcaboni@tiscali.it Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20thymol=20italia=20e=20apiguard?= To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu hello coleene in italia stiamo sperimentando apiguard da circa 2 anni i risultati sono abbastanza contrastanti,perche se in alcune zone arrivano intorno al 90% in altre no,....questo prodotto come tutti gli altri acaricidi esempio timolo e acido ossalico à bisogno di programmi di intervento adattati ad ogni zona o regione .questo per dire che per utilizzare dei metodi di lotta biologia contro la varroa e necessario il coinvolgimento di diversi apicoltori per valutare il sistema migliore per quel detterminato clima . spero di essere stato chiaro evventualmente contattatemi giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscalinet.it --- Received: from [213.213.58.37] by mail.tiscalinet.it with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:59:53 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6054A2000398DD@mail.tiscalinet.it> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:59:53 +0100 From: gcaboni@tiscali.it Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20thymol=20da=20italia?= To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu hello peter il timolo può non essere ancora approvato per l'uso in apicoltura negli stati uniti,ma ti posso assicurare che in italia e usato da più di 10 anni,inoltre tutte le ricerche fatte in italia hanno dimostrato che e talmente volatile che dopo 30 45 giorni dalla fine del suo uso non lascia alcun residuo,..invece con il cumaphos e altri acaricidi chimici ci sono dei problemi di vera emmergenza per l'accumulo dei residui nella cera,oramai e talmente difficile trovare cera con bassissime quantita di residui che à raggiunto il prezzo di 10-15$ il kg.inoltre bisogna aquistarla dall australia. ciao a tutti. giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscalinet.it ulteriori informazioni su www.apicolturaonline.it www.unaapi.it Abbonati a Tiscali! Con Tiscali By Phone puoi anche ascoltare ed inviare email al telefono. Chiama Tiscali By Phone all' 892 800 http://byphone.tiscali.it ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:10:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alternating medications arithmetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/03/02 05:01:35 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << The down side of this is you may select for resistance to both at the same time and wake up to a surprise that both treatments no longer work. Cross resistance may also be obtained quicker. >> It depends how similar the treatments are. For example, although Apistan and Bayvarol are different formulations of artificial pyrethroid, they are so close that if the mites are resistant to one they will be resistant to the other. Although the mechanics of resistance can take many paths the one, in Europe at least, that the mites use is to detoxify themselves. Putting in in human terms, the treatment selects for the mites with the most efficient kidneys. Mites with this form of resistance will therefore have a head start in coming to terms with the next chemical treatment to come along. Alternating between chemical and bio-technical (physical) treatments would seem to be a likely way of postponing resistance. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:44:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Tanalised timber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote > Does anyone have any information on the safety of tanalised timber in hive > construction? I assume when you talk about tanalised timber it is the CCA - copper, chrome arsenic. Research has shown that if you use CCA treated timber in exposed areas of the hive e.g. supers, then you will get residues in the honey and probably the beeswax. Recommendations here in Australia are only the bottom cleats on the bottom boards and stands, which are used to keep hives away from cane toads, can be treated with CCA as these are not in direct contact with the bees. Often the bottom cleats are also painted which helps. Even painting supers that have been CCA treated will not stop leaching through the paint. Frames are not treated with any preservative as they are in the hive and not exposed to the weather so are not subject to decay (rot). The exception would be if you have upper entrances in hives where you offset the super and here ends of frames will be exposed. However, it would be for such a short time that decay would not be a problem. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 23:14:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Kuyckx Subject: Andy Nachbaur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear BEE-L and Beekeepers, Please remember: Andy Nachbaur died March 17, 1999 in Los Banos, California Maurice Kuyckx - Belgium/Europe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:12:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Andy Nachbaur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > Please remember: Andy Nachbaur died March 17, 1999 Has anyone any update on the re-creation of his website? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:55:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Chester Subject: Spanish beekeepers MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I will be visiting Barcelona and Madrid with my family at the end of this month and would like to meet some local beekeepers—perhaps some hobbyists like me. I would appreciate any suggestions or contacts. I speak passable Spanish but no Catalan. I won't have a car in either city, so I'll be limited to areas near those cities. Tom Chester San Francisco, California ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:46:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Chester Subject: Food-grade buckets MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have seen 5-gallon plastic buckets advertised as "food grade" or "food approved." What is the difference between one of these containers and an ordinary 5-gallon bucket from a hardware store? Would a hardware store bucket be okay for honey storage as long as it is clean? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:36:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Test for Nosema Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently there was a USDA address in one of the recent issues of either Bee Culture or The American Bee Journal where you could send a sample of your bees to be tested for Nosema. Does anyone have this address? (or remember the issue?) Thank you John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Food-grade buckets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tom Chester" >Would a hardware store > bucket be okay for honey storage as long as it is clean? I just don't trust any bucket that may have had chemicals in it. But you can get plenty of pails, cheap, from donut shops, that have had the donut filling in them. I have always regarded them as a much safer supply. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:36:22 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: Andy Nachbaur In-Reply-To: <200203171337.g2HDb1HX011073@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Please remember: Andy Nachbaur died March 17, 1999 > > Has anyone any update on the re-creation of his website? I think it is not present anymore. But if those who took it over would zip it up and send it to me I will be pleased to host it. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Updated 10-08-2001 Added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:57:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Denise Hubler Subject: Re: food grade buckets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been able to get frosting buckets from the local Kroger stores for free. I use them for honey storage and for feeding .The lids are leak proof when inverted with sugar syrup. Regards, Denise Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:24:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Andy Nachbaur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Please remember: Andy Nachbaur died March 17, 1999 Go to http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.beenet.com and choose a date. allen http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://http://www.internode.net/honeybee/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:26:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Andy Nachbaur--the old drone In-Reply-To: <200203170501.g2H51nhd054682@smtp.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Interesting that it took someone from Europe to remind us all of the passing of the old drone. His writings are still found at places like beesource.com , so he is still virtually there, but his domain name http://beenet.com/ that I discussed in my Bee Culture column has become some kind of a server. I was glad to be able to visit with him a year before he died. M. T. Sanford Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford Retired Extension Apiculturist, University of Florida To subscribe to the revamped Apis newsletter, see: http://home.earthlink.net/~beeactor/apis_news.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:12:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: New study on cell size In-Reply-To: <200203131357.g2DDRQIb003160@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200203131357.g2DDRQIb003160@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst writes >Where did this information come from? Hepburn (1998) has them >originating somewhere in modern day Iran, with the European and African >types branching from there. Brother Adam assumed honey bees came to >Europe from Africa. Hello Peter, One of my biggest weaknesses is that I just do not keep hold of records of exactly where I got any particular piece of information. I do appreciate that this weakens my hand in such a debate and lays me open to demolition by the simple and justifiable request for a reference. I cannot cite references as others are well able to do because I am not that into the minutiae of the subject and do prefer to keep most of what strikes me as significant in my head. Sometimes a piece of info is so striking that you remember exactly where you got it and why it was so important. Not really so in this case as given experiences worldwide thus far, scutellata are not likely ever to appear in my unit. However, after making my feeble excuse for not being able to quote a source I can say that it was a combination of things relating to dominance of africanised bees in the Americas and some South African persons writings on the subject from a couple of years back at least. However, scutellata being a newer race, and the statements of the sources you cite are NOT mutually exclusive. Nowhere have I heard that all racial traits and genetic advances are from a single original geographical point. Honeybees, like humans, MAY all turn out to be of distant African origin. They may turn out to be Asian. What this does NOT mean is that a mutation, that which gives 'scuts' their advantage in suitable areas, could not occur at any point in the whole territory covered by honeybees. (I appreciate by the way that it is a double negative to put it that way but it fits the context better.) The scuts can fly earlier and faster due to their energy conversion method (citations placed previously by another poster). In their normal range this gives them an advantage, and they oust, by a variety of mechanisms, the bees already extant in the territory. This is NOT likely to happen in reverse, as there is no reason that a better adapted bee should be ousted by a less well adapted one. Hence the dominant bee (naturally speaking) in an area is likely to be that best adapted to the area which has THUS FAR got there. There may be better out there, but just never encountered the territory. If our native blacks turned up with the scutellata energy conversion system, allied to their good properties for our environment, they too might take over in the northern lands. It is this dominance that makes me favour the 'scuts are the newer' arguments as I cannot see how the other types would oust bees with the trait, and thus conclude, albeit on sketchy information, that the major expansion of bees from their point of origin (wherever that might lie) carried only the older, less efficient, genetics. If they had carried the better system for energy use the types we currently have could not have come to dominate. Although there is a research deficit regarding African bees in their native range outside South Africa, it appears that a large swathe of tropical and sub tropical Africa north of the Cape bees stronghold in the extreme south corner (in the target zone for limiting latitudes between 30 and 35 depending on local conditions) is occupied by a relatively undifferentiated bee, which has possibly evolved its critical change in relatively recent times and swept a whole host of local races and sub races away in its path. I have heard academics argue that lack of differentiation is a measure of age, insofar as the less variants there are the longer the type has been around and for the best to eliminate the rest. I have heard the exact opposite from others, where local conditions over a long period (we are talking many thousands of years here) give rise to a range of locally or regionally adapted races and sub races. Take your pick. Not an academic, but I prefer the latter. I don't pretend to have any definitive info on this issue, but appreciate its importance to our North American friends. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Food-grade buckets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, If you're using used food-grade pails (which I don't) be sure to NOT use peanut butter pails or any pails that contained fats or oils. These will contaminate your honey and could cause an allergic reaction. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Ca. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:47:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Food-grade buckets In-Reply-To: <200203171358.g2HDreHf011348@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some kinds of plastic aren't stable and leach bad things into whatever is stored in them; some plastics are porous and absorb some of the contents; some plastic is made out of already used material. Frankly, at wholesale, 4 or 5 gallon plastic pails with lids aren't all that expensive. We re-use ours but dedicate them to honey. A lot of effort goes into keeping the food supply safe. We don't see any reason to fool around. > From: "Tom Chester" > > >Would a hardware store bucket be okay for honey storage as long as it > is clean? --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 20:07:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Subject: hive requeening I have read previous posting on requeening hives without looking for the queen. I raise my own queens. When the queen in the mating nuc shows good laying pattern, what would happen if I just took that matting nuc, removed the bottom, and placed it ontop of a torn sheet of newspaper on an inner cover hole on the hive that I want requeened. Hold the mating nuc down somehow and leave for a week and let the two units merge. If about 90% of the time the younger queen will dominate, then alot more work is avoided when requeening my hives. Right?? And the 10% of the hives that keep their old queen are probably better off with thier old queen. I do not want to requeen my hive with a weeker queen than what was in there to begin with. Can someone comment on this and point out any problems that I am not aware of or maby overlooking. Ian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:29:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, You could probably achieve requeening eficiently for most of the time by uniting a mating nuc to a hive in the way you describe. The drawback to your method is that you will have no idea whether you have succeeded or not unless you find and mark the queens. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Vos Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) About the "BIRDS and the BEES." In 1946 a Mr. von Frisch wrote: "The brain of a bee is the size of a grass seed and is not made for thinking." The BEE-L members: Stan Sandler, Karen Oland and Ted Hancock participated in this discussion and mentioned the word "INSTINCT" on several occasion. Karen wrote: "Instinct does not require "learning". So the question really should be where is the instinct initiated. Most good parents tell their children about the BIRDS and the BEES. But what they do not tell them are the secrets of life and well being, and about the conscious and the subconscious mind As naturopath and acupuncturist, I have studied ancient Chinese medicine and it's principles. 5000 years ago the Chinese discovered some important basic facts regarding the composition of humans and animals. There is first the 12 organsystems that keep a body functioning, then the meridian systems in the body of all living creatures, humans and animals, so the life energy (CHI) can reach every cell in the body and then they also created a unique sign for balance which is still known today as Yin/Yang. But there is more, although not important to add to this message. However the most important issue they discovered is that all creatures on earth are composed from three major parts: Mind, Body and Soul or Qi, Jing and Shen. In this concept the MIND is represented by our brain which is being educated in the years of our present life from day one of our existence. The BODY is only the carriage of flesh and bones that carries the Mind and the Soul through this earthy life. But the Soul is the most important part, for that is the part of all creatures that reincarnates and carries on in life after life until this reincarnation process ends. In this message we will not discus this last phenomenon, but only mention the fact that the SOUL is the part that remembers all the experiences from our past lives. We are programmed and indoctrinated not to believe in these things, we are not allowed to believe in alternative ways of healing, hypnoses, reincarnation or hand healing. Issues most people are forbidden to explore and investigate since they are a threat to the common believes that we have learned from our established religions, and therefore a threat to the soul of it's members. We have to live by men made laws and by the lectures of parents, priests and teachers, so we can be all be dutiful donators to the wallets of our peers. We are not allowed to live by the laws of nature like all the animals do, that is what makes us humans. But there is no doubt in my mind that humans as well as animals have the memories of past lives stored in their own "Shen".(SOUL) Prove of this can easily be found in the fact that all people under hypnoses remember these past lives and certain experiences in these lives, but also certain events from childhood days. There are thousands of recordings of these hypnotic sessions and many books are written about this, for those who want to explored this hidden world of our own past. Animals do not need the use of hypnoses to remember; they just know, because their brain is not clogged up with the millions of useless thoughts that fill our brain. The birds know exactly where to go to when the migrated to the south at the end of the summer even when they are only 3 months old. These same young birds know exactly how to build a nest upon arrival on their return, while they had no parents to teach them this. Pigeons do not build weaver nests, and most ducks don't build their nest in trees, but near water so they can swim away in case of trouble. By the same token it is the bee that knows precisely where and how to build cells in the dark hive, without the training and teaching of a lector. They also know exactly what size these cells must be to maximize the effect of fighting sickness and disease. And the same goes for that all the other activities we enjoy so much in our bees. So what I am trying to say is that "instinct" is actually their subconscious memory from past lives, while the only creatures failing dramatically in recalling their own past life experiences are the human beings, and the results of this failure is expressed daily of the news. Mankind never learns, since men do not act on instinct but only on rational thinking since the MIND blocks all memory stored in the SOUL. The birds and the bees don't exist with gain on their brain, so they have no need for war, only the urge of survival for the species and the safety of their own kind, that's why birds fly away from danger and bees sting to protect their colony and to let us know that they want to be left alone so they can follow their "instinct" or at least what we call their instinct. "Should I keep back my opinions through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards society and an act of disloyalty towards my eternal soul and my creator, which I both revere above all earthly kings, rulers and law makers." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:54:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: New study on cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, *Larger cell size reduces varroa reproduction (ABJ vol. 141 no. 12 pg. = 895) While searching for the reason varroa mites do not reproduce in worker = brood of cerana researchers found that mellifera worker brood raised in = mellifera drone cells had only 17% varroa reproduction while mellifera = worker brood raised in mellifera worker cells had 100% varroa = reproduction. ( ABJ vol. 141 no. 12 pg. 895) Could there be a larger cell size which would control varroa if = mellifera could be upsized to the size? Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 01:21:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Jeffrey A. Holbrook" Subject: Re: Andy Nachbaur In-Reply-To: <200203170111.g2H17wHv001567@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maurice, Thank you for your rememberance. The BEE-L has not been the same since Andy's departure. I miss the "Old Drone." I have not forgotten him but I did forget that this weekend marked the 3rd anniversary of his passing and our loss. Take Care, Jeff Holbrook Corning, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:02:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Martin Subject: wax moth damage and cleanup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I looked through the archives and didn't fine what I was looking for so I'll give the list a go. I have some old combs, brood and super, that have wax moth damage, dead cocoons, webbing, and tunnels through the combs. Will the bees clean these combs up and repair them or should I cut the comb out and put new clean foundation in? Also, what about the frames, should I boil them in lye water (as I heard someone recommend) or is that not needed? Thank you, Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 07:21:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SAVE THIS MESSAGE AND READ IT CAREFULLY *BEFORE* YOU POST (OR REPLY) TO BEE-L. READ IT AGAIN IF YOUR POST DOES NOT APPEAR ON BEE-L MODERATORS WILL NOT NOTIFY YOU IF YOUR MESSAGE IS REJECTED EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS HERE OR ON THE WEBSITE AT http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L --- BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. In particular, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES WHEN REPLYING. Contributions including quotes that are not absolutely necessary to understanding will usually be rejected WITHOUT NOTICE. FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: wax moth damage and cleanup In-Reply-To: <200203181538.g2IFBmJJ009274@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:02 AM 3/17/02 -0800, you wrote: >Will the bees clean these combs up >and repair them or should I cut the comb out and put >new clean foundation in? Also, what about the frames, >should I boil them in lye water (as I heard someone >recommend) or is that not needed? It really depends on how badly the combs are damaged. Light to moderate damage you can simply just reuse, the bees will clean it. Moderate to heavy and you're probably better off scraping the frame and giving them new foundation. Is there enough structure left to maintain the integrity of the comb when placed in the extractor? Generally all you have to do to the worst stuff is scrape and replace the foundation (unless you have plastic foundation which won't need replaced). The wax moth (i assume) is dead, if not put the frames in a freezer for a couple of days. Boiling or other treatment is not needed unless you are concerned about other pests lingering such as AFB. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:27:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Vos wrote: > So what I am trying to say is that "instinct" is actually their subconscious > memory from past lives, while the only creatures failing dramatically in > recalling their own past life experiences are the human beings, and the > results of this failure is expressed daily of the news. Mankind never > learns, since men do not act on instinct but only on rational thinking since > the MIND blocks all memory stored in the SOUL. Behavioral Scientists would disagree with those statements and all that preceded it. I almost did not bother to respond to the post because I thought that we had ended it because the thread, as is this post, was into religion with little science. No way you can argue faith. Only difference with this and prior posts is this is new-age-eastern-mysticism, which seems more acceptable to the moderators than Christianity. I guess we will hear from the Wicca contingent next. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:27:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Subject: hive requeening I have recieved several e-mails with various comments and opinions on my recent queen introduction posting, which leads me to a question- What happens in the queen right hive when a new queen is introduced using my suggested or any other bee merger methods? -do the two queens fight for control themselves? -or do the workers in the queenright colony fight and maby kill her before she has a chance to fight the other queen because of her stranger type presence? -if so then the chances of the new queen taking over is very slim. Also how badly do the merging bees battle before uniting? Does it matter if the merging colony (with the new queen) is weaker than the other queen right colony. Does that determine the success on the new queens takeover of the queen right hive? I have had opinions given on both sides and I'm just wondering what causes such varied opinion. I have previously requeened by killing the old queen and intoducing the new queen via candy cage. I has worked great but very time consuming. Queen introduction without looking for the old one interests me. hope to hear from someone Ian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:59:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Chester Subject: Intermediate beekeeping class MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Intermediate Beekeeping Class Sponsored by the Beekeepers Guild of San Mateo County Saturday, March 23, 2002, 8:30-4:00 Belmont, California (25 miles south of San Francisco) Cost: $50 (includes lunch) Instructor: Randy Oliver For more information or to register, contact Sue Michaels at suzbeez@aol.com or (510) 489-4952 (evenings). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:09:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Rev. Mike Martin" Organization: Illuminati New World Order Subject: Re: wax moth damage and cleanup MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tim Arheit wrote: > > Is there enough structure left to maintain the integrity of > the comb when placed in the extractor? The wax moths had plenty of time to work in the brood frames and had even gotten into some of the supers so I went through the supers and scraped the frame on any that had moth damage. The brood frames will all be replaced with Pierco frames, the wooden frames will be cleaned up and I'll install the duragilt foundation I have sitting in a box for next spring when I make increases and need another couple brood boxes. > Boiling or other treatment is not needed unless you are > concerned about other pests lingering such as AFB. Thanks much, that was the advice I was looking for. Mike -- ubi mel, ibi apes where there is honey, there are bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:41:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: hive requeening quote: I have had opinions given on both sides and I'm just wondering what causes such varied opinion. reply: What causes it is the *fact* that no two hives behave exactly alike any more than any two people behave exactly alike. What works in beekeeping is *what usually works* or *what works most of the time* or even *what may work, if you are lucky*. Anyone who tells you he or she has a sure-fire method is got a case of inflated self importance. Be ready to be fooled! The bees will switch the "rules" on you every time! Queen introduction is an art, not a science. Success depends on weather, strains of bees, methods. In the middle of a honey flow you might be able to drop a strange queen right into a hive with no harm. With a very valuable queen I always introduce her to very young or emerging bees that don't know any other queen. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:59:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) In-Reply-To: <200203181835.g2IGc5MX012059@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, let's drop the religious aspects of the discussion. Instinct is hard-wired, just as when a body breathes and its heart pumps, even when unconcious. A newborn baby "knows" how to suckle (even deal with being born in while the mother hibernates, if a bear, or find the way into a pouch for an extended period post-birth, if a marsupial). Bees "know" how to do the tasks required, even withouth any adult bees around to teach them. A lot of work on neural networks has been complemented by work on how nerbes in brains work -- once "trained" (via evolution or any mechanism of your choice), the network can be hardwired to perform whatever tasks are required. No intelligence required. Let alone some type of inherited past life experience. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell John Vos wrote: > So what I am trying to say is that "instinct" is actually their subconscious > memory from past lives ... I thought that we had ended it because the thread, as is this post, was into religion with little science. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:56:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: hive requeening In-Reply-To: <008201c1ceef$06c0f8a0$f27dfea9@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-35EB9; boundary="=======41254E8E=======" --=======41254E8E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-35EB9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >The workers will probably ball the new queen, thus no queen fight >really. Problem with your "queens fight it out" scenario is that usually >both are damaged and the hive will make emergency queen cells to >superceded with an inferior queen. IMHO .. Dave --=======41254E8E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-35EB9 Content-Disposition: inline --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.338 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/14/02 --=======41254E8E=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 07:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Deadline approaches for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Passing on a a reminder for those who have been active on US political fronts that came to me from Troy Fore (American Beekeeping Federation): The deadline for member requests for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 is this Thursday in the House (March 21) and Friday in the Senate (March 22). We need to make sure that anyone who has contacted their Congressman and Senators regarding ARS bee research contact them again before these deadlines. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:53:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We look at bee behavior and from our "planned" approach to the world say that bees are instinctual and hard-wired. From some larger vantage point we may someday come to view human behavior as hard-wired and instinctive albeit within a greater domain than the bees. Bees may within a much more limited domain of awareness be said to plan. How can we speak with such assurance about whether or not bees plan when we have such a poorly developed idea how are own brain functions? This I believe reveals more about the prejudices of ourselves than any well understood knowledge of how people and bee brains work. However useful the concepts of instinct and evolution are, we have a huge gap in how brains function. We understand how neurons fire and can converse at ease with others but between the two extremes are great areas of ignorance. I agree that we do not have to introduce religion into the equation, another unfathomable, but to repeat the old saws about instinct, evolution, hard-wired brains is to place worn labels on brain functioning which is poorly understood. We cannot agree on what consciousness is in humans therefore how can we then assert that bees lack consciousness. The discussion ranks with how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, and what the true religion is. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:19:03 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203171842.g2HIfdHZ015478@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In trials with beekeepers and bee institutes internationally over the past six years we have seen very good varroa control levels using Apiguard alone. In cooler areas we have found the efficacy to drop below the 90%+ normal levels but never as low as Murray was aluding to. We have also seen that under cooler conditions, the product can still work quite well but needs a longer treatment period. Our aims in developing Apiguard were to take a known acaricide and improve upon its delivery, specially formulated for use in beehives. Thymol is used in several other ways - raw or in other formulations but usually with complicating factors of repeated treatments, high residues and adverse effects on the colony. With Apiguard the gel formulation the treatment is easy to apply and is generally well-tolerated by the bees. In high temperatures, the bees sometimes do form a beard outside but even at temperature of 40C+ absconding is not that common. Using dry formulations or crystals the risk of adverse effects is much high. Brood safety is very good with Apiguard also, as has been proven many, many times in field use and in University/Institute trials. Residues in wax after Apiguard use are generally much lower than using thymol alone or other formulations and will dissipate. [Murray the wax you had that smelled of thymol was unlikely to be from Apiguard treatment as the product was not available then]. We've been working hard on getting the regulatory data together for registration of this product and believe me, for a European veterinary registration this is a LOT of work and data - and Apiguard is now being registered widely; some registrations came through in 2001 but most will issue later this year. We are not making out that this is a silver bullet, it's certainly not perfect but it most definately is an effective varroa control agent. The file attached lists tests which show very good results and some not so good. When you've got pyrethroid, coumaphos and other pesticide-resistant mites, or prefer greener methods an IPM approach including an Apiguard treatment may just save your bees. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK tel. +44 (0)1256 473177 fax +44 (0)1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:29:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? (male intelligence) In-Reply-To: <200203191504.g2JEU9Jb013488@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, research on bees raised from brood, with no nurse or adult bees (using capped brood in incubators, if I remember correctly) was used to determine if bees learn their behavior or if it is built in. The behavior of these versus "normally raised" bees was the same - the bees knew how do all the tasks required at each stage of their development (not to say they didn't get better with experience, no matter which group they were in, but no "teacher" was required). Similar experiments with man would probably lead to executions and jail time. But it is safe to say that most human "behaviors" are taught - language, morality, ethical behavior, mathematics, etc. But not things like eating (although what to and not to eat is taught to most), chewing, digesting, running our bodily functions. Or having our brains process visual input to differentiate various things in our environment. These are the types of hard-wired functions perfomred by humans (although by no means an exhaustive list). Conciousness: The ability to debate what conciousness is. Regards, Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:01:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Deadline approaches for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 In-Reply-To: <200203191443.g2JEU9IJ013488@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In regard to the "trickle down" effect of this decision: It has been published that the bee research and "support" program of the Oregon Extension Service will likely be discontinued next year on the retirement of the lone researcher at OSU. The ostensible reason for cutting the program is budget. Oregon's budget, already under great pressure, has been decimated by an additional $150 Million as the result of Federal Tax Cuts on business - the State relies on the Federal tax model and returns for calculation of the State Tax. If bee research is limited to one lab in the heart of Africanized territory, if State programs are terminated due to budget constraints (many States require a year to year balance budget), not only is the bee industry jeopardized, so is all agriculture in every state where managed pollination is required. I was in the local Extension office yesterday and once making inquiries regarding the real chain of budget command. Frankly, there wasn't much interest until I pointed out that Oregon's agriculture has a heavy dependence on transient pollination services. Even among the people who should know better, bees = honey. Get past that mind-set and some headway is possible. On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Aaron Morris wrote: > The deadline for member requests for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 > is this Thursday in the House (March 21) and Friday in the Senate (March > 22). We need to make sure that anyone who has contacted their Congressman > and Senators regarding ARS bee research contact them again before these > deadlines. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Swarm Line Drawing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm looking for a good line drawing (not a photograph) of a honeybee swarm. I need a drawing that can be reproduced well in a low-tech black and white publication. I haven't had much luck surfing for such a drawing. Any suggestions? TIA, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:43:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ozark Electronics Subject: Re: Deadline approaches for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As we conspire together to pressure the federal government to take more money from our neighbors to support our hobby/business it would be wise to consider what one congressman said: "Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it." Congressman David Crockett The Life of Colonel David Crockett The government has no more business funding agriculture then it has funding obscene art. Knox Adler Missouri, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Bees can't plan? In-Reply-To: <200203191504.g2JEAKL1013064@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Rick Green wrote: > but to repeat the old saws about instinct, evolution, hard-wired > brains is to place worn labels on brain functioning which is poorly > understood. Actually, the belief that "evolution = instinct = hard-wired" is a position that very few evolutionary biologists, cognitive psychologists, and evolutionary psychologists would share. The "nature versus nurture" debates presuppose the Standard Social Science Model, which is rejected by these three groups. For an enjoyable introduction to evolutionarily psychology that doesn't assume the reader has a scientific background, see: The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology by Robert Wright Publisher: Vintage Books For a more rigorous introduction, see: The Adapted Mind : Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture by Jerome H. Barkow (Editor), Leda Cosmides (Editor), John Tooby (Editor) Publisher: Oxford University Press Sample pages for both books are available at www.amazon.com. Happy reading, James ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:26:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203191529.g2JEAKMx013064@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200203191529.g2JEAKMx013064@listserv.albany.edu>, Max Watkins writes >In trials with beekeepers and bee institutes internationally over the past >six years we have seen very good varroa control levels using Apiguard alone. >In cooler areas we have found the efficacy to drop below the 90%+ normal >levels but never as low as Murray was aluding to. I have corresponded with Max off list on this subject and would like to make it clear that I was referring to Thymol as a general treatment option rather than as formulated in Apiguard. The original question just asked about thymol, and only mentioned Apiguard as a form available in Europe. If Max misunderstood what I wrote then others may have done so too. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the figures provided by Max and his company especially as they have spent a lot of time and money in developing an effective delivery system, rather than the more hit and miss ways available before. >Residues in wax after Apiguard use are generally much lower than using >thymol alone or other formulations and will dissipate. [Murray the wax you >had that smelled of thymol was unlikely to be from Apiguard treatment as the >product was not available then]. This is so. He had been using it for some kind of repellent for wax moths and the whole lot stank. Years on it still has a residual odour, and if you scrape the frames for rewaxing it comes out of the wood and the smell gets stronger again. Certainly seems to have been a misuse situation and a very costly error on behalf of the guy in question. >When you've got pyrethroid, coumaphos and other pesticide-resistant mites, >or prefer greener methods an IPM approach including an Apiguard treatment >may just save your bees. I have one unit of 300 colonies being converted to organic for a very special client. We will try to use Apiguard as ONE of the front line treatments in this unit, as it IS permissable. If the list wants I will keep them informed of the progress on that front. The colonies are on a 55000 acre organically certified estate. Honey price very high indeed, delivery in barrels, so worth trying to comply. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:47:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Deadline approaches for Agriculture appropriations for FY 2003 In-Reply-To: <200203200342.g2K3VWHr004943@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I beg to differ. And lest your comment discourages fellow listers writing, permit me to observe the following. We and "the Government" are an identity. Government is a contract we make with ourselves. Everyone eats, so provided the Government spends money on developing the tools with which farmers feed the country (I won't, out of deference to the nature of this list, argue the case for helping farmers stay on the land) then it is doing the people's business. Because bees are under the gun from nature, man, and chemistry, not to mention economic trade, safeguarding the bees through objective research is of direct benefit to our entire population. Organizing scientific research where there may or may not be a marketable product to encourage private investment is one of the things Government does best. And since our bees benefit all of agriculture, we bee keepers have just as much, if not more right to a bit of the money to be spent on the common weal. As has been said, if cattle owners were losing 50% or more of their breeding stock every year, you can bet there would be a fully funded crash program to figure out why and to correct it. Although I disagree vehemently about whether a great civilization should support its artist, I'll leave that debate to a more appropriate forum too. On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Ozark Electronics wrote: .... > The government has no more business funding agriculture then it has > funding obscene art. > Knox Adler > Missouri, USA > --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:05:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203200345.g2K3VWI5004943@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-560996C; boundary="=======25BD622A=======" --=======25BD622A======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-560996C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 21:26 19/03/2002 +0000, you wrote: >I have one unit of 300 colonies being converted to organic for a very >special client. We will try to use Apiguard as ONE of the front line >treatments in this unit, as it IS permissable. If the list wants I will >keep them informed of the progress on that front. The colonies are on a >55000 acre organically certified estate. Honey price very high indeed, >delivery in barrels, so worth trying to comply. >-- >Murray McGregor I find it hard to understand how industrially produced thymol (chemically, for example, 5-Methyl-2-(1-methylethyl)phenol - C10H14O) can be used to treat bees producing Organic honey. Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======25BD622A=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 05:02:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Sure Fire Queen Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OK, Peter, I'll expose my exaggerated case of self-importance. For a description of a sure fire method, address and Dan Hendricks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Rowbottom wrote: > I find it hard to understand how industrially produced thymol (chemically, > for example, 5-Methyl-2-(1-methylethyl)phenol - C10H14O) can be used to > treat bees producing Organic honey. Expediency and practicality. I have found, working in the organic movement, that there are inconsistencies that always get back to expediency and practicality. For example, antibiotics can be used on farm animals but not on bees and still be organic. Why not bees? No one wants to lose a cow or horse because of the expense, but no big deal losing a few hives. Plus the beekeeper's voice is fairly muted in the organic movement, compared to organic farm owners with lots invested. "Natural" pesticides that are much more destructive to the environment than many "manufactured" pesticides are approved. If they were not, then you could not sell your produce either because it would not be there or damage would make it unappetizing and un-sellable. Hence, thymol can be natural even if manufactured, even though the concentrations used in the hive are nowhere to be found in nature. The truly "organic" or "natural" grower would forgo all such stopgap measures. But if they did, they would either fail or take large losses, since nature is unforgiving. Ask any farm stand operator how people check every ear of corn for worms, and if they find one.... So nature is not allowed to take its course and chemicals, be they "natural" or "manufactured" are allowed. The real world has a sobering effect on utopians. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: pallets for hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I am in the process of palletising and would like information on pallets. Could someone direct me to sites with information; or send me some photos of their pallets? You can contact me directly at keating@destination.ca many thanks in advance, Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dan Dean Subject: Plants poisonous to bees A friend recently posed the following query: The explorer, Benjamin Hawkins, in his account of his journey through the Creek Indian country (Tallapoosa River Valley in east central Alabama) on December 23, 1796, noted that, in March, the honey is poisonous due to a plant he calls "wolf's tongue" or "fire leaves" and said that the Indians called it "Hochkau". He described it this way, relating from information provided by the Indians: "it has a long stem with yellow blossoms, and bears around the stem, green berries, which although poisonous, are eaten by the Indians in years of scarcity. They boil them in 2 or 3 waters, shifting them, and extract the poison from them. They are then pleasant to taste, somewhat like the garden pea." (The specific relavant text of his journal can be viewed at this link: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cmamcrk4/crkhw2.html Scroll down to 12-23- 1798, but is also 0copied below) The honey in this country is poisonous in the mouth of March, some negros and Indians have been killed at that season. At that season on the small branches, there is a plant in bloom called by the whites wolfs tongue, or fire leaves, by the Indians Hochkau, it has a long stem with yellow blossoms, and bears around the stem, green berries, which altho' poisonous are eaten in years of scarcity by the Indians, they boil them in 2 or 3 waters, shifting them, and thus extract the poison from them, they are then pleasant to the taste, somewhat like the garden pea. The Indians are the authors of the discovery. Milk has been the only afficacious remedy discovered here for this poison. The last season a bee tree was taken in this neighborhood and all who eat of the honey sickened instantaneously, they retired to the house, except a black boy, and took some milk which restored them, the boy was unable to get to the house, and altho' aid was sent him, in 2 hours he was dead. Those who eat of the honey are first taken with a giddiness, then blindness accompanied with great pain and uneasiness, and thurst. The questions, then, are 1)What is/was the plant or plants? 2)What authoritative sources for verification of plant names or characteristics are available ? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:38:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/02 12:15:19 PM GMT Standard Time, mike@COGNANT.DEMON.CO.UK writes: > I find it hard to understand how industrially produced thymol (chemically, > for example, 5-Methyl-2-(1-methylethyl)phenol - C10H14O) can be used to > treat bees producing Organic honey. > I think perhaps you miss the point here. Max might come back in and offer the correct terms in this as I am no chemist, but the treament uses pure pharmacoiea (sp?) grade thymol, as found in plants, in a food grade gel. Organic does not mean NO inputs. No inputs would mean little or no outputs and would bring us into the model which an extremist person of the movement once put to me that 'the change would be worth it even though it would mean an 80% reduction in population'. Rather it means 'natural' inputs. This was defined to me in the most basic terms by an organic farmer as 'if you can dig it out of the ground or extract it from a plant or animal then it is organic'. This is irrespective of whether the product is derived from natural or artificial sources, so long as it is chemically the same. I have the regulations on my desk and this is pretty well the case. You will notice that 'natural' and 'safe' are of course not synonymous. Some organic inputs are far more noxious, and persistent, than their conventional equivalents. This is not how the food buying public perceive this issue but the widely held idea that organic is automatically cleaner and safer is not always correct. I have cited the use of certain substances on such as organic carrots before, and some of these organic treatments are amongst the most dangerous chemicals currently in use on farms. ie Copper arsenate. However, back to the main game. Thymol, Formic acid, and Oxalic acid (and others) ARE acceptable in organic systems, whether by instinct you feel they should be is another issue altogether. Murray ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:12:49 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Mike Rowbottom wrote: > >> I find it hard to understand how industrially produced thymol (chemically, >> for example, 5-Methyl-2-(1-methylethyl)phenol - C10H14O) can be used to >> treat bees producing Organic honey. Bill Truesdell's ensuing comments on organics were generally realistic but included: >"Natural" pesticides that are much more destructive to the environment >than many "manufactured" pesticides are approved. As a longtime supporter of the organics movement, and having advised successive NZ Ministers of Health on poisons for many years, I've never heard this contention and would wish to discourage its spread. Could we be told of a few examples? Bill offers not cases but reasoning: > If they were not, then you could not sell your produce either because it >would not be there or damage would make it unappetizing and un-sellable. This reasoning I find hard to follow. If what is meant is that natural pesticides are the main explanation for the existence of real organic food, that is not a very good way to explain the fact. For one thing, a mantis or ladybird is not a pesticide. Thymol is a natural product, similar to several others of the isoprenoid family and known to be degraded by natural systems. True, it can be synthesized by industry, and not all such attempts do accurately copy the natural chemical (e.g. the classic http://www.connectotel.com/gmfood/trypto.html ). But I would still argue that properly pure thymol is on its face a less worrying pesticide than most or all synthetic chemicals of kinds containing chemical structures that do not occur in nature at all or are so modified (by substitution of fluorine atoms etc) that they will likely not be processed by ordinary natural enzyme systems. BTW the thymol molecule has 14 not 140 hydrogen atoms. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:20:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203201214.g2KC6OHl015138@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200203201214.g2KC6OHl015138@listserv.albany.edu>, Mike Rowbottom writes >I find it hard to understand how industrially produced thymol (chemically, >for example, 5-Methyl-2-(1-methylethyl)phenol - C10H14O) can be used to >treat bees producing Organic honey. How does it differ from extracted thymol? Similarly methyl salicylate and oil of wintergreen? Ta. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203201359.g2KCiBMh015571@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200203201359.g2KCiBMh015571@listserv.albany.edu>, Bill Truesdell writes >"Natural" pesticides that are much more destructive to the environment >than many "manufactured" pesticides are approved. Since this debate is not applied to bees, I would prefer to cry "foul", as an answer and ensuing debate would not be allowed unless it referred principally to bees. However, as one outfit I keep bees in and sell honey and candles through, has made and markets organic produce including wax base for ointments and propolis in one, often using organic oils as other ingredients, I will reply briefly. In the UK, there are 2 (possibly more) agencies approving organic produce. The Soil Association sets the more stringent standards - to market organic eggs means not only feeding organic feeds and requires all hens to range freely. The Organic Farmers and Growers requires only organic feeds, which hardly adds much to the cost, but adds greatly to the profit. The customer has to be well informed to discern this. However, this latter agency is the only one which has the expertise to vet the ointments, though I am happy with the standards they set. Propolis can be from wild sources and comply. Given the very strong move towards organic, I remember debates which suggested that the big enterprises hijacked the word and reduced its meaning as legislation about the use of the word "organic" was pending. As an example to show how bizarre our legislation is on applying the term "organic", I am now breaking British law by informing you that diluting your urine and spraying apple trees deals with codling moth. Two sprays, different dilutions, autumn and spring. It is commonly used by organic growers, at least on a small scale! -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:31:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Formic Acid Pads & brood production Hi all, Just got off the phone with someone who is the president of a beekeeping assocation here in Ontario. I had asked her if she knew of anyone in her area that made there own formic acid pads. When she said no I questioned her about a well known, used to be, perhaps still is, scientist in the beekeeping industry who lives near her. She said he didn't because he believed that there was hardly any brood production accomplished as long as the formic was on. Has anyone found this to be the case? Or has anyone done experiments with it to see how it affects the brood? I have not noticed anything. Would appreciate the input. Thanks, Carm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Making Formic Pads Hello all, One more question, For those of you that make your own formic acid pads, how do you do it? What kind of board do you use? I picked up at lift of 7/16 natural tentest today to sell to the beekeepers around here, since the building supply store I work for, as well as every one around, do not want to carry it cause it seems only beekeepers use it. How do you ensure that each pad assorbs 250 ml. of formic? And what size do you cut them to? Well I guess that is the end of the questions. Thanks for the help. Regards, Carm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:35:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Making Formic Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For those of you that make your own formic acid pads, how do you do it? Go to http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Formic/ and check out "Medhat Nasr's 'Homesote' Method' " under the heading: "Several Slow Release Formic Acid Devices" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:23:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/02 11:43:14 PM GMT Standard Time, robtm@MAXNET.CO.NZ writes: > > BTW the thymol molecule has 14 not 140 hydrogen atoms. > > ?????? Not being a chemist at all I cannot dispute these formulae, however, I read the disputed formula as having 14 hydrogen. Not 140. The last digit is actually an O for Oxygen. Now to anser James Kiltys point about this not being a forum for general debate on organics, well to some extent I agree with him and in the past we have done the thing to death anyway. However, there are some glaring problems with organic and bees, and I feel Robt. Mann, who has in the past called himself a 'neutral ecologist' has firmly nailed his colours to the mast by declaring as he did in his last post. Strictly in beekeeping terms relating to my own health I would be happier with the use of flumethrin than with oxalic acid, which is truly nasty stuff. Not oil miscible perhaps, thus not likely to be persistent in wax, but intrinsically more dangerous to my health whilst in use. One final thing about the organic farmer, and it is moderately relevant as I keep many colonies on his 7500 acres of land (only about 10% is in organic). This guy is a leading (graduate) farmer of enormous expertise. He is influential and award winning and is in at cutting edge developments. He is enlightened and modern, and no way would I dispute his credentials. He is very scared of one or two of the organic treatments he is cornered into using and has a special compartment in his locked chemical store where these things are kept. A locked store within a locked store? To contain chemicals the public believes to be safer? A bit odd dont you think. I will now bow out of this thread, as I did not intend it to expand as it has beyond being about Thymol and must take my full share of blame for that happening. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann wrote: > Bill Truesdell's ensuing comments on organics were generally realistic but > included: > >"Natural" pesticides that are much more destructive to the environment > >than many "manufactured" pesticides are approved. Rotenone is one. Exposure to it has been implicated in the onset of Parkinson's Disease. Yet it was, and still may be an approved organic pesticide because it was "natural". Here is a quote on how to use it. >Exposure to applicators applying rotenone is further minimized through the use of >protective equipment such as air-purifying respirators, protective clothing (coveralls, >gloves), and eye protection (splash goggles or face shields) that are required on the >product labels (Finlayson et al. 2000). It cannot be used near waterways because it kills fish. It is much more toxic than, for example, Malathion, a manufactured pesticide. For bees- Formic Acid is dangerous to humans. Note the precautions needed in its use. Yet it is organic because it shows up in nature. However, in my travels, I have never encountered a lake of 95% formic acid or even 65%. Which is the point. Just because it is in nature, does not make it natural when used in concentrations never found in nature. Add essential oils to that list. And I agree with Murray. This is one of those topics that go nowhere and do not convince the believers on either side. BTW. I do practice organic methods in my garden and fruit trees. Just I am not a true believer and recognize that sometimes you need to treat. Like some of my friends who shudder at the use of antibiotics for animals but ask for a shot to cure their cold. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:25:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All If bees travel say 2 miles, then they forage in a circle, the area of which is specified as PI multiplied by R squared. This ends up as 8038 acres - (3.14*(2^2)*640) (640 acres in a square mile) If all of this area is controlled by the beekeeper, and his wife does not use any pesticides on her garden then fair enough. But can anybody tell me or anybody else in all honesty that the bees will pick up nectar from forage which has not been affected by pesticides in such a vast area? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland