From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:33:04 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.9 required=2.4 tests=AWL,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206E04903C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3ra010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:03 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0203D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 143281 Lines: 3138 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:08:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Organic Honey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" > If bees travel say 2 miles, then they forage in a circle, the area of which > is specified as PI multiplied by R squared. > > This ends up as 8038 acres - (3.14*(2^2)*640) (640 acres in a square mile) Tom I think that you have to make that at least 3 miles - and packers here are specifying 6 miles to avoid GM crops. That gives 72391.68 acres! Peter Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:02:13 -0800 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett wrote: > If bees travel say 2 miles > If all of this area is controlled by the beekeeper > can anybody tell me or anybody else in all honesty that the bees will pick up nectar from forage > which has not been affected by pesticides in such a vast area? Honesty implies knowledge of the facts - all honesty is beyond my comprehension. I think it would be impossible to know with 100% certainty whether your criteria has been met. But, I think probability would be a useful tool. The more area, as a function of the radius from the colony, the beekeeper controlled as compared to the limits of the bee's inclination to forage, the greater the probability that the bees collected from the controlled area. If you controlled an area of 5 mi radius from a colony and bees are generally considered to limit their flights to 3 mi, chances are you control 100% of their food supply. Of course this assumes there are no roadways within this area since township/county/state maintenance usually involves some sort of spray program. I recall as a kid watching 'city folk' picking blackberries along the roads in the country where I grew up knowing that the county had sprayed just a few days earlier. But, I digress... AL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:05:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Tom and All, Tom wrote: This is ends up as 8038 acres - (3.14*(2^2)*640) (640 acres in a square = mile) Tom clearly shows that the organic farmers thoughts for organic honey = from his bees are only thoughts. Research in the U.S. has shown five miles is within the bees reach when = the need arises. It is true most forage is done close to the hive BUT bees do at times = forage great distances and many run out of fuel on the return trip and = die before returning to the hive as the bee uses blood sugar when the = honey stomach is empty. When blood sugar is used up the bee can not fly.=20 In fact at times bees will spend the night out on the return trip if = dark happens on the return home.=20 The organic farmer from the post will most likely produce a pesticide = free honey but testing is the only way you can be certain and testing = for all possible pesticides is not possible with today's lab costs. =20 =20 Remote areas of the world free of farming and people would in my = opinion qualify for pesticide free honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Pure Honey on the label only says the product is honey and not part = sugar syrup.=20 So far testing has not shown that the worlds honey is a inferior = product to so called *organic* honey.=20 I would rather see labels like below or better yet signs by the product = explaining the process to the buyer.=20 raw honey unheated in any way =20 not pasteurized not pressure filtered only strained from chemical free hives ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:29:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <200203220033.g2LNYPJf007344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200203220033.g2LNYPJf007344@listserv.albany.edu>, Tom Barrett writes >This ends up as 8038 acres - (3.14*(2^2)*640) (640 acres in a square mile) > >If all of this area is controlled by the beekeeper, and his wife does not >use any pesticides on her garden then fair enough. But can anybody tell me >or anybody else in all honesty that the bees will pick up nectar from forage >which has not been affected by pesticides in such a vast area? Tom, if you are referring to my earlier bit about running a 300 colony unit to produce organic honey then perhaps you misunderstand. The unit where the honey is being produced is indeed organic and is 55000 acres, well larger than your nominal area quoted. Some of the apiaries are 8 miles from any edge of the land being controlled under the system, of which the stated 55000 acres are converted and certified, and the neighbouring blocks, as much again, are under conversion. Even beyond that, neighbouring ground containing bee forage is entirely without inputs of a non organic nature. What no-one has yet asked is what the nature of this ground is. It is wild moorland, with only ling and bell heather, cross-leafed heath, blaeberries, cowberry (and other related species), rocks, a few trees and old pine forests, and the odd grassy break (with some short wild white clover) where the deer graze. No houses, no farmers wives gardens (and in any case that would generally be irrelevant as it would not constitute more than 5% of any input), no arable agriculture. The ground is locked and private, and you can only walk there unless you have a pass key to use the roads. There are varroa mites there though, and cleanliness of environment does not seem to give the bees any leg-up in coping with it. The large arable organic unit is used as a wintering ground to get the hives out of the worst weather. Strictly speaking there is conventional arable agriculture within flying range in that area, but not much pollen is gathered in the winter months, and flying ranges are pretty short. This is a bit of a compromise within the letter of the regulations, but in practical terms the bees only go half a mile in the period they are there so there is no 'contamination'. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:38:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <200203220033.g2LNYPJf007344@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1F23CE6; boundary="=======6042EA3=======" --=======6042EA3======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1F23CE6; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 00:25 22/03/2002 +0000, Tom Barrett wrote: >If bees travel say 2 miles, then they forage in an area of 8038 acres And if the range were to increase slightly to 2.5 miles then the area becomes 12560 acres, and the argument about lack of control becomes even stronger. Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======6042EA3=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:18:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To claim organic wouldn't the beekeeper have to avoid treating the bees with any chemical and obtaining bees from a source that had not ever used chemicals. The progeny from chemical usage may not carry residue but their exisitence was determined by chemicals. Does not the wind blow chemicals such as acid-rain. Can we say that the ground has never been contaminated. The woodenware never been reated with chemicals. Etc. Isn't it impossible to say that honey can ever be produced organically . Not just what is below detection by todays instruments. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:25:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Streptomycin in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The shelves in UK supermarkets are virtually denuded of honey due to streptomycin having been found in Chinese Honey. Chinese honey constitutes the bulk of the honey imported into the UK. It appears that China is using streptomycin to handle AFB as resistance to terramycin is now widespread. It now appears that honey from Mexico is also suspect. I contacted a big honey importer here in Ireland and was told that all of their honey is imported from South America. Have we any info on streptomycin having been found in Argentine or other South American honey? Thanks for any input. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <200203220033.g2M08eI7007996@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Since 'organic' here in the US is about to become a legal term (and not an intuitive one) does anyone have the legal description of organic honey. I did a quick search and scan of the 550 page document on USDA's webpage but could not find a reference to honey (and I admit that I only spent half an hour doing so and since it was the middle of the night, made no phone calls to people at USDA or to independent certifiers). This is an issue of some importance. For a living, I grow organic vegetables and come October when the regulations go into effect, my vegetables will be certified. To get vegetables certified organic is a clear process with strict do's and don'ts. However, while I have no intention of wading the bog of confusion to get the honey my dozen hives produce certified organic, it would be nice to have clear guidelines on the issue. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:32:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Remote areas Bob mentions as a possible source for organic honey remote areas of the world. I spent 6 months in the Highlands of Papua New Guinea, and I once saw a half-naked native spraying cabbage with DDT. I think alot of stuff that gets banned over in North America/Europe ends up in these sorts of places. Even in a relatively sophisticated country like South Africa, we as farmers could do things unheard of here in California. Very best Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:22:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: organic certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had the pleasure of working with a Bulgarian beekeeper this summer who was trying to convert to organic honey production. He was running his bees in a government regulated watershed protection zone that encompassed a large land mass in which any chemical application was prohibited. He was looking to organize all the beekeepers in his area that ran bees in the watershed to form an organic cooperative. This situation would not be uncommon in developing countries where chemical fertilizers and pesticides are simply not available or too expensive for use. The trouble we have is getting third party certification that the area was chemical free/organic and the other issue is organic mite control. The govt. of Bulgaria was working on certification by several European certifying agencies, but I am most concerned about the beekeeper's ability to keep mites below damaging levels with organic controls. We showed him the menu of currently available options, stessed vigilence and monitoring, but I still fear for the long term health of his bees. Bill Lord -- William G Lord North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension 103 South Bickett Blvd., Louisburg, NC 27549 E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:47:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > So far testing has not shown that the worlds honey is a inferior = > product to so called *organic* honey.=20 As Bob notes, the problem with "organic" honey is that testing most honey will show no difference between true organic honey and my "non-organic" honey. That being true (and tests have shown that) it is too easy for someone to label their honey "organic" and practice non-organic beekeeping. I know it happens and will go no further than that. The reason they can get away with it is simple. After the initial inspection of the location and certification, there is no follow-up and enforcement. The honey can as easily come from the organic location as it can from their non-organic locations and other beekeepers. There is no way, as with fruits and veggies, that testing will show any problem. With honey, it is a program easily defrauded. But nothing new here. "Raw" honey comes to mind. Some who sell it heat it well above 122F so it has a longer shelf life or use heat (above 122) to process it in the honey house. That you can test, but who does since it usually is on a small outfit's labels? Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:37:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nancy Dalrymple Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with the below, before we can call anything organic it should not be treated with chemicals. I do not feel comfortable calling my honey organic because of the apistan, but so far have not tried any other methods. I usually use the term "raw". Nancy Dalrymple rymple@pgtc.net > To claim organic wouldn't the beekeeper have to avoid treating the bees with > any chemical and obtaining bees from a source that had not ever used > chemicals. The progeny from chemical usage may not carry residue but their > exisitence was determined by chemicals. Does not the wind blow chemicals such > as acid-rain. Can we say that the ground has never been contaminated. The > woodenware never been reated with chemicals. Etc. Isn't it impossible to say > that honey can ever be produced organically . Not just what is below > detection by todays instruments. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:24:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Streptomycin in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Tom and All , =20 I apologize for my computer putting out equals. My computer guru could = not fix the problem last week but a new program is going to be = downloaded Sunday to fix the problem.=20 Tom wrote: The shelves in UK supermarkets are virtually denuded of honey due to streptomycin having been found in Chinese Honey. Chinese honey = constitutes the bulk of the honey imported into the UK. It appears that China is = using streptomycin to handle AFB as resistance to terramycin is now = widespread. My friends which took the China beekeeping tour a few years back = reported the government chooses the method of treatment for all hives = (which are government owned) and then the meds are passed to the = beekeepers. My guess is streptomycin has been government distributed and = *ALL* hives have been treated by the same method.=20 *old news* Apistan was never sold in China. Sticks with fluvalinate were = distributed by the government for varroa control. =20 Illegal in the U.S. but passed out in China yet Chinese honey was = allowed sold in the U.S. . Most china honey was distributed by packers with only random testing . = Packers are on the honor system. (kind of like the wolf policing the = chicken pen). Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:07:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: organic/raw honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: This is a difficult subject. In the strictest sense, there is probably NO CONTAMINATE free honey anywhere in the world. Pesticides, pollution, radioactive fallout from Chernobyl, etc. are found in the Arctic and Antarctic - they've been distributed globally by winds, water, etc. The Italians use honey as an environmental indicator of pesticides, metals, etc. My Croatian colleagues follow post-Chernobyl fallout in honeydew honey. But, there is an IMPORTANT DISTINCTION to be made. With modern analytical instrumentation able to measure contaminants in the parts per trillion of pico Curie range, a good lab will find trace residues in virtually any beehive sample, whether it be the bees themselves, pollen, wax, or honey. My rule of thumb, if the lab can't find any detectable levels - its not doing a very good job. Whether those concentrations represent any risk at all to people is a very different question. Considering that per capita consumption of honey in most parts of the world is a few pounds per year at the most, simple math says that human exposures are likely to be very low. Can we harvest organic honey from remote areas? How remote is remote? In eastern MT, some years ago, where one can go as far as 28 miles between ranch houses, with virtually no heavy industry (this was before the power plants), and no large cities or highways (gravel roads only), we found industrial chemicals, pesticides, and radioactive materials (from Chinese weapons testing) in the bee colonies -- at very low levels, but they were there. Our Croatian colleagues find evidence of Chernobyl in honeys from high in the Alps. >From a practical viewpoint, no one managing bees in or near the urbanized areas of our east or west coasts can "claim" to have organic honey. If nothing else, every hive has a wide array of volatile and semi-volatile organic chemicals (traces of solvents like dry cleaning fluids and degreasers, benzene/toulene/xylene from gasoline and diesel fuels) in the air inside the box. In Montana, we don't see the solvents, but we still see the gasoline and diesel derived contaminants -- again at parts per trillion levels, but there, nevertheless. Now, factor in that you probably don't know what your neighbors are or have used with respect to pesticides and other contaminants, that the bees can easily forage out to 1 or more miles, that winds,rain, and other weather conditions distribute, disperse, and re-distribute chemicals, and you can never say for sure that your bees haven't contacted chemicals that could show up in the honey. So, I would have to argue that there is no such thing as truly organic honey and that this is an unattainable goal - short of moving off-planet. But, one can TAKE STEPS TO REDUCE THE CHEMICAL CONTAMINATION OF HONEY. Obviously, not using chemicals in your hives or on your farm is step one. If you do live in a remote area, you have at least a chance of making a reasonable claim that your honey is as clean as it can be. Urban areas, its going to contain traces of chemicals from industries and vehicles. So, how do you define ORGANIC. Pristine or pure is unattainable. Below detectable analysis limits - may be able to pass, but expensive. Best available effort -- probably only criteria that can be applied. Should we call is organic or raw or something else? I don't know. When it comes down to it, most "organic" vegetables suffer the same problems. Soils contaminanted from historical use, pollution, etc. Is honey any more or less organic than veggies? I realize that my position will not be a popular one -- but with 30 years of bee hive samples from all over the U.S. and other parts of the world, that's what we've found. Compared to most produce, honey looks good. Is it pure or organic? Debatable. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Remote areas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim writes: I think a lot of stuff that gets banned over in North America/Europe ends up in these sorts of places Comment: Persistent Organic Pollutants (Pops) can be found almost everywhere on the planet, in all of our bodies and in much of our food. In addition, because they spontaneously migrate towards the colder regions of the planet, POPs pose a critical threat to northern indigenous people, whose survival, health and well being depend on their traditional relationship with the ecosystem and the food it provides. Some of the most highly exposed populations are indigenous people living in polar regions far from major POPs sources. For example, the Inuit living on Baffin Island carry seven times as many PCBs in their bodies as people living in lower latitudes. refs: Michelle Allsopp and others, A RECIPE FOR DISASTER: A REVIEW OF PERSISTENT ORGANIC POLLUTANTS IN FOOD (Exeter, UK: Greenpeace Research Laboratories, March 2000). ISBN 90-73361-63-X. Available at www.greenpeace.org/~toxics/ under "reports." Indigenous Environmental Network, "Indigenous Peoples and POPs" (Briefing paper for INC-4), February 2000; available at http://www.alphacdc.com/ien/pops_bonn_ien11.html. Also see "Drum Beat for Mother Earth: Persistent Organic Pollutants Threatening Indigenous Peoples," a video by the Indigenous Environmental Network and Greenpeace, 1999. Available from Greenpeace USA; phone 800-326-0959. http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/index.cfm?issue_ID=1814 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:41:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: organic/raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > Hi all: > > This is a difficult subject. In the strictest sense, there is probably NO > CONTAMINATE free honey anywhere in the world. Pesticides, pollution, > radioactive fallout from Chernobyl, etc. are found in the Arctic . > Hi Jerry and All, Times have changed. True organic and clean is unattainable go up to 4500 feet in the Olympic mountains , just east of the Pacific ocean by 60 miles of National Park. We have found some heavy metals at a very low level , but they are up there or finding there way into my box's down low. I have tried new equipment and sent the honey over to the U of Washington, just to find the problem was still there at low levels. The only good news is simple. Beekeepers must keep there bees as clean as possible. I keep my bees away from agriculture and that is not easy. Most beekeepers need pollination contracts to keep afloat.. We have very little information on the affects of all the pollution that is affecting our honeybees. I know it has changed there overall health..The cleaner the bees , the better off your operation will be. Organic is out, healthy is in , if we can get there with our problems. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:58:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: organic/raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > This is a difficult subject. In the strictest sense, there is probably NO > CONTAMINATE free honey anywhere in the world. Pesticides, pollution, > radioactive fallout from Chernobyl, etc. are found in the Arctic and > Antarctic - they've been distributed globally by winds, water, etc. Jerry, Thanks for an excellent summary of the problem of how pure is pure. In Maine, there was a group protesting our now closed nuclear power plant. Some prided themselves in that they were back to nature and burned wood. Problem was, Strontium 90 from nuclear tests was in the wood and by burning it, they concentrated it so that the ashes they threw onto their gardens was more radioactive than anthing reported by them concerning the plant. And well beyond what would be tolerated in the plant. Which means that our hives are probably a bit radioactive if we make our own wooden ware from local wood. No wonder my hives glow in the dark. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: organic/raw honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >So, how do you define ORGANIC. Pristine or pure is unattainable. Below detectable analysis limits - may be able to pass, but expensive. Best available effort -- probably only criteria that can be applied. Should we call is organic or raw or something else? I don't know. When it comes down to it, most "organic" vegetables suffer the same problems. Soils contaminated from historical use, pollution, etc. Is honey any more or less organic than veggies? According to discussions I have had with people in NY state over certification, it appears that there are two types of standards. The first and in my opinion, reasonable, standard is one of practices. Organic farmers are required to follow certain practices and the product is *assumed* to be organic as a result. The second is environmental. I don't know if any other crop but honey is subjected to this odd and stringent standard. It is assumed by the NY state group that honey bees working in an area where there is agriculture will pick up pesticides and pollute the honey with it. No testing is done to see if this, in fact, occurs. I tried to argue that my bees visit mostly wild or non-sprayed plants such as wild raspberries, locust trees, basswood trees, and goldenrod. They wouldn't listen to this at all. Honey is presumed guilty without a trial. Some states do offer practice based recommendations for raising bees organically. They are strict , but the are feasible. One way to avoid all chemical treatments is to allow mite infested hives to die, burn AFB, and build in the cost of restocking the hives with package bees. Expensive, but feasible. Now I agree with Jerry that there is no such thing as chemical free food any more; by today's methods you can find chemicals everywhere. But what are acceptable limits? The organic farming organizations don't want to go there because testing is very costly, and it is possible that other products would not pass, due to environmental contaminants from the air and water. Personally, I think it is a damn shame they have raised the bar so high no one can pass. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: denis Mckenna Subject: organic honey in regards to the topic of area of bee forage for organic perposes in the mid 60's I worked for a beekeeper in northern Alberta that was operating with packaged bee's and a honey house that was not bee tight. in the fall when the bees started robbing we had to kill off the hives within 5 miles of the honey house before the robbing in the honey house ceased ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: organic/raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > The second is environmental. I don't know if any other crop but honey is subjected to this odd and stringent standard. It is assumed by the NY state group that honey bees working in an area where there is agriculture will pick up pesticides and pollute the honey with it. No testing is done to see if this, in fact, occurs. I tried to argue that my bees visit mostly wild or non-sprayed plants such as wild raspberries, locust trees, basswood trees, and goldenrod. They wouldn't listen to this at all. Honey is presumed guilty without a trial. Peter, Blame Maine. I (along with many others) suffered the same frustration trying to point out the stupidity of the standards. Many years back, before Varroa really hit and tracheal was more or less under control, what eventually has become the foundation for the national standard for organic honey was debated and approved by the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners. Several of us said the restrictions were unrealistic but that was met by the position that we were outside the movement (even though I was a member for quite some time, but new to beekeeping) so did not understand or were too permissive or pro pesticide. The ones who dreamed it up were marginal beekeepers at best or ignorant at worst. And it had a life of its own after that. My guess is that there are few organic beekeepers as most farmers rely on local bees for pollination and they have enough on their plate than to add bees to the equation, especially with mites killing untreated colonies. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Patrick Larsen Subject: Re: organic/raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" NOSB Apiculture Task Force Report Draft Organic Apiculture Standards http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/nop2000/nosb%20recommedations/Livestock%20recomm end/apicl-finldrft.htm Cheers, Patrick _____________________ Patrick L. Larsen Project Geoscientist Stone Environmental, Inc. Montpelier, VT USA www.stone-env.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:42:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett ask: But can anybody tell me or anybody else in all honesty that the bees will pick up nectar from forage which has not been affected by pesticides in such a vast area? Sure, I can. In New Mexico USA where I live I have bees where there is nothing but desert or ranch land (both) for 20 miles in all directions. No farm or ranch homes eather. Regards, Lee Deming, NM USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:19:42 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: bees play a major role in gene flow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://gefoodalert.com/News/news.cfm?News_ID=3255 Gene Flow a Canola Headache (Posted: 22-Mar-02) Weekly Times (Nationwide News Pty Ltd). | By Kim Woods | March 20, 2002 Canola growers may be in for some genetically modified headaches over outcrossing, or gene flow between plants. A study into the gene transfer between herbicide tolerant and susceptible canola crops by Co-operative Research Centre for Australian Weed Management has revealed canola will outcross, meaning genes will move from crop to crop. An Adelaide University senior lecturer in weed management, Dr Chris Preston, said the likelihood of gene flow was low and was a management issue for canola growers. "But it is going to happen, and we've got to expect it to happen," Dr Preston said. "Gene contamination can come from many sources -- seed contamination, animals or wind can blow canola across (paddocks)." CRC researchers evaluated the implications of a 1 per cent gene flow between canola crops. Material was used from herbicide-resistant canola crops grown in the Wimmera, Mallee and Riverina regions. A total of 48 million seedlings were screened for gene transfer frequency under the project. "One collection had frequencies of 0.05 per cent to 0.07 per cent. The bottom line in a field situation is that's pretty low," Dr Preston said. "If we are looking at a 1 per cent cut-off level, it means a farmer can grow a genetically engineered crop next door to another farmer growing a non-GE crop, and it won't affect the ability to market that crop." At the Victorian sites, outcrossing of resistant genes occurred up to 2km from the source. Dr Preston said no resistant genes were detected greater than 3km. "There were low levels of gene flow detected -- we've got to expect that to happen," he said. "There is not a simple decline with distance, it is influenced by a whole range of other things." Although no clear patterns were established between bee activity and gene transfer, researchers believe bees play a major role. "We believe most of the gene movement is bee-mediated because even if the crops were grown right together, they showed little or no gene flow," Dr Preston said. "If it was wind, we would expect to see quite a significant level of gene flow. "Our work says you need a buffer of more than 3km but there can be zero (gene flow) for crops right next door." Dr Preston said the control of crop volunteers was important in managing herbicide tolerant crops. "Contamination of current crops with volunteers from a previous canola crop may become a major management headache," he said. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:56:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Honeybee carwash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since varroa cling to the outside of bees, could a "carwash" be devised to strip the bees of varroa? The entire colony could be made to pass through this gauntlet thereby removing all mites from the bee's bodies. The bees would be placed in a new mite-free home and their old home recycled once the varroa in it died. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:17:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote that he was in support of more substantive labeling of honey; suggesting, "raw honey unheated in any way =20 not pasteurized not pressure filtered only strained from chemical free hives" The buying public is apparently demanding more and more detail to indicate what is in the container they buy, where the contents came from and how they have been treated. Admirable! But, it appears perverse, that we, producers of a pure product feel the need to indicate this purity. This by showing on the label what has not been done to the final product. It should be the aim of the industry to educate and get public recognition that if the label stated "honey" only - it contained honey This by itself should indicate that there is nothing else present. By definition honey is pure!. "Pure honey" used in a label seems an illogical statement to make. It should be for the producers of products containing additives and having undergone manufacturing procedures that are not clear in the name or appearance of the final product to label with greater clarity. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 07:37:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Streptomycin in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom wrote: > The shelves in UK supermarkets are virtually denuded of honey due to > streptomycin having been found in Chinese Honey. The official reports we received here in Australia said that the antibiotic found was chloramphenicol. Can you give me a reference re the streptomycin. They tell me that Aussie honey is now on the UK shelves. Thanks. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honeybee carwash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Green wrote: > > Since varroa cling to the outside of bees, could a "carwash" be devised to > strip the bees of varroa? The entire colony could be made to pass through > this gauntlet I have a hard enough time making them line up for their shots every fall. But if you can train them to run a gauntlet please let me know. I would love to dump the hypodermic. Hard to hit those little arms with my eyesight going. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Labels and honey "raw honey unheated in any way" this is totally unrealistic. will the honey not be uncapped with a hot knife? will you throw it away if it sugars in large containers? what about honey from melting wax, throw it away? I am all for raw honey, but some heat is necessary in most beekeeping operations. as long as the honey doesn't go over 130F and is not held at high temps for long periods, I don't think it is hurt by moderate heat. can you prove that it is? why create unrealistic, unreasonable standards that most people cannot meet for no good reason? pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:13:02 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Honeybee carwash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rick & All, > could a "carwash" be devised to > strip the bees of varroa? > Maybe sound waves could be the medium that is used to wash the varroa off the bees. The idea came to me the other night while I was working and listening to a talk radio program. On the show the interviewer was talking to a person that uses sound to cure disease's and create well being for a person, and to move objects. maybe sound could move varroa off bees. It may be worth looking into by a researcher, for I would not know where to begin. If it works somebody might be set up to make some bucks. Could you imagine varroa free colonies. I have emailed this person a few days ago and if others were to contact him he might be encouraged to look into the possibility of sound cleaning the bees of varroa. It may be worth a try. Here is his web site; http://www.jonathangoldman.com/index.asp Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:40:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Peter and All, [] =20 Bob Harrison wrote: "raw honey unheated in any way" I sell a small part of my crop in health food stores. I find those = people very knowledgeable and try to educate their customers (unlike = grocery stores). Not wanting to give away all my secrets I will share a = few. Peter wrote: this is totally unrealistic. will the honey not be uncapped with a hot knife?=20 I use a stainless steel flail uncapper which does not use heat. will you throw it away if it sugars in large containers? Once gone to sugar you simply heat and sell to grocery stores which = could care less. what about honey from melting wax, throw it away?=20 I drain or spin all the honey out of my wax. Melter honey is feed to the = bees. If you are a large coop member it is blended and fed to humans. I am all for raw honey, but some heat is necessary in most beekeeping operations. as long as the honey doesn't = go over 130F and is not held at high temps for long periods All of my health food stores trust me not to heat over 120 F. About a = month ago I started to have to exchange quite a bit of honey from health = food store shelves. I reheat to 120 F to clear . and then send back to = the health food store. A real hassle but what will need to be done until = the new crop comes in. The requirements for most health food stores is local honey, not heated = over 120 F. and only strained. Peter wrote: , I don't think it is hurt by moderate heat. can you prove that it is? why create = unrealistic, unreasonable standards that most people cannot meet for no good reason? I charge extra for my trouble and many health food stores are glad to = pay the higher price as long as they get what they want. Over 100F. = kills the yeast which does not seem to bother the health food stores. = Over 120 F. changes honey in several ways. I do not sell my honey as = *raw honey* to health food stores only as strained (eliminate bee legs = etc.) , Not heated at all for most of the year and NEVER heated over 120 = F if heat is needed. The honey I sell to my other markets is processed differently. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. to figure out why the bees can keep their honey liquid a year = (when the beekeeper can not) is the secret to selling a unheated honey = to the health food stores. Hmmm.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:47:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Labels and honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG 03/22/02 04:13PM >>>said: "raw honey unheated in any way" this is totally unrealistic. will the honey not be uncapped with a hot knife? will you throw it away if it sugars in large containers? what about honey from melting wax, throw it away? I am all for raw honey, but some heat is necessary in most beekeeping operations. etc. etc. Response: It is not at all unrealistic for me (as a hobbyist). No extra heat besides the ambient temperature is added to my honey. Yes, of course most of it crystalizes sooner or later. That's "proof" that it's raw. No, I do not use a hot uncapping knife. If my customers want to heat their honey to reliquify it, that's up to them, but I advise them against it because I understand that not only does honey degrade when heated (the higher the temperature and the longer it is kept at a higher temperature, the more quickly it degrades), but volatiles are also lost (called by some "bouquet"). I sell unheated, unfiltered honey. Now, whether it's better than somebody else's who heats theirs may be debatable, but I believe it is, and belief and perception is what I market to. I don't make any claims, but I cater to peoples' beliefs and sell my honey at a premium price and feel good about it. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:17:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: chloramphenicol In-Reply-To: <200203221526.g2MFLBHn024608@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is more info on this stuff than you want to know: Note that it is illegal to use on food producing animals in the U.S.A. Someone needs to start checking the imported honey coming in as it is well known that some foreign packers are blending low cost Chinese honey with their own to cut costs.This lets the Chinese evade the import restrictions ,as the barrels come in labeled product of Mexico,or where ever.You can be absolutely sure that if chloramphenicol is in Chinese honey in the UK,its here in the US. --Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:08:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Borst"> this is totally unrealistic. will the honey not be uncapped with a hot > knife? Hi Peter: It is not unrealistic. We uncap by scratching and others here use Gunness uncappers which use no heat. We keep our sump and our bottling tank at 95 deg F and sell the product in the granulated state with instructions as to how to soften it by warming to 100 deg F and stirring. If you want to sell liquid honey and keep it liquid for a long time, you have to heat it up, but that is a different product. Incidentally, we do not make any effort to sell our honey as organic etc. It is just easier to do it this way. As for the wax, we wash the cappings in warm water and use the resulting diluted honey as feed. The wax from this process is beautifully clean and bright and, again, it is less trouble than using a heated honey/wax separator. Best regards ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:24:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Streptomycin in Chinese honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Trevor and All I got the information from the BBC. Posts sent to The Irish Beekeeping Discussion List where we have many UK members seemed to go along with the streptomycin story. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 04:04:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > "raw honey unheated in any way" > > this is totally unrealistic. will the honey not be uncapped with a hot > knife? will you throw it away if it sugars in large containers? Hi Peter and All, You can do a lot of honey under 120 F. Your operation has to be set up for the process. I use a 1000 pound stainless steel double walled milk tank. I can run 120 F water through the water jacket coils if needed to settle the honey.I draw off of the bottom to fill buckets. I have to clean the wax and other particles off the top now and then , but that is not a problem. Extracting needs a warming room ( 90F) and a warm extracting room, I do 85 F.. The cappings are spun and the honey is used to feed the bees. Its a great way to top off your hives in the fall. The real problem in the US is the heating for the filtering process. They crank it up to 155 F filter and quick cool. It inverts the sugar and good-bye honey. Its yellow but dead. With some planning you can produce honey that never see above 120 F. I use 1000 pound milk tanks but you can get them to 3000 Lb. each if you need more room to settle the honey. High quality Honey gets the high price , its worth it to me and my customers. Best Regards Roy > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:28:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <200203220945.g2M9jkHT018654@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200203220945.g2M9jkHT018654@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Edwards writes >I think that you have to make that at least 3 miles - and packers here are >specifying 6 miles to avoid GM crops. That gives 72391.68 acres! Ratnieks measured bees going 7 miles (11km) for heather. Surely they will do that for OSR as well. So, when the public require to be reassured that there is no GM source of honey, even though we are not talking organic, then each location requires a minimum of 50 sq miles (120 sq km). Soon, there is going to be no space left in our small island. -- James Kilty UK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:16:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is obvious that bees from a colony placed in the middle of a on a 160 acre field of blooming clover will forage much closer to the hive if than if they are stuck in the middle of a NY forest. If we knew that 95% of foragers on a blooming hay half or quarter section (the Canadian prairie term for 320 and 160 acre divisions) fields did not stray outside the area, I would feel confident in supporting this guideline as a component of organic beekeeping. Of course the remaining 5% could be foraging on a heavily managed canola field, but is this same small risk not part and parcel of any organic field crop when a neighbor's synthetic pesticide occasionally drifts? As Jerry and Peter pointed out, you can never completely eliminate bees from foraging across a vast distance, but I want to know can you restrict the majority of foraging area to a limited area... specifically in our region a 160 - 320 acre organic hay field. I don't think there are studies that have tested the situation I am interested in, although Jerry would know and I would like his comments. How are the current estimates of honey bee foraging distances are derived? By looking through what literature I have on the subject I found the following: Although honey bees have been found to forage over distances up to 10 km from their colony (reviewed in Winston 1987), bees will only forage such large distances when no other competing food sources are available. Honey bees located in a temperate forest most commonly foraged within 600 to 800m of their colony and 95% of the foraging activity was restricted to within 6km of the hive (Seely 1985). In another foraging study in a temperate forest only a small fraction of foragers (2%) were observed to recruit nestmates to floral sources beyond 4km (Visscher and Seely 1982 quoted from Seely 1985). Forests, however, tend to have less concentrated nectar sources than agricultural settings, where the median foraging radius has been observed to be within a few hundred meters of the hive (reviewed in Visscher and Seely 1982). Evidence suggests that nectar foragers assess the profitability of their food source and tend to avoid distant flower patches when closer patches are present, as distant patches require more energy to fly to. Experiments have shown that bees will preferentially recruit nestmates to a food source 50m away over 1250m away even if the distant source has nectar that is 30% more concentrated in sugar (Seely et al. 1991). Foragers would prefer to recruit to the more distant source only when the reward was 3.5 times the sugar concentration of the closer nectar source. References: Seely, T. D. 1985. Honeybee Ecology. Princeton University Press. Princeton, NJ. Seely, T. D., S. Camazine and J. Sneyd. 1991. Collective decision-making in honey bee colonies: how colonies choose among nectar sources. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology. 28: 277-290. Visscher, P. K. and T. D. Seely. 1982. Foraging strategy of honeybee colonies in a temperate deciduous forest. Ecology. 63: 1790-1801. Winston, M. L. 1987. The Biology of the Honey Bee. Harvard University Press. Cambridge, MA Regards, Adony ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy Nettlebeck wrote: > The real problem in the US is the heating for the filtering process. They crank > it up to 155 F filter and quick cool. It inverts the sugar and good-bye honey. > Its yellow but dead. Minor point but I believe it is the enzymes that are are killed off above 122F. Also you start down the road of increased HMF. But any heat does that, even below 122F. Which brings up a good point, you can have "dead" organic honey if it is heated beyond 122F but live non-organic unheated honey. Or do the standards have heating as a stipulation for being called organic? I do not recall any, but it has been a while since I looked. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:57:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Agency calls for withdrawal of Chinese and blended honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/47797 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:43:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Apochryphal story In-Reply-To: <200203230505.g2N55HqM082626@smtp.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I believe I use the term correctly here with reference to the thread on organic, raw, etc. honey. That in Reggio Emilia, Italy, famed for its Parmesan cheese, it is said that a customer entered a cheese shop and asked for a generous portion to be cut from a wheel for a gift. The owner carefully selected a hand knife eschewing a nearby mechanical model. When queried why he did not use the mechanical version, the owner said that this kind of knife produced too much heat when cutting the cheese, which damaged the final product. That if word got out a mechanical knife had been used, he said, customers would not shop there any more. Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford Retired Extension Apiculturist, University of Florida To subscribe to the revamped Apis newsletter, see: http://home.earthlink.net/~beeactor/apis_news.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:34:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Formic Acid Pads & brood production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I live towards the East end of Toronto, here in Ontario. I keep bees just outside Toronto. I use formic acid and make my own pads following Medhat Nasser's research. By the time we reach the temperatures required for success makes my bees are definitely into brood rearing in a big way. I have never noticed any problems at all. I do not do research but certainly would notice dead brood being pulled out if there was a serious problem. Sometimes the bees have started to build comb on the veggie bag containing the homasote pad since they are at the top of the hive and spaces 1/2 inches above the top of the frames. .......george ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:32:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > > > Minor point but I believe it is the enzymes that are are killed off > above 122F. Which brings up a good point, you can have "dead" organic honey if it is > > heated beyond 122F but live non-organic unheated honey. Or do the > standards have heating as a stipulation for being called organic? > Hello Bill and All, I think if we try fit standards as people put on paper, we will have problems. We all have ideas as to what is organic. True clean pure organic honey is "impossible". As stated before by Jerry and others , there is no clean place on this planet. We can only work with what we have in our areas . I do not promote my honey as organic.No organic on the lable.I don't need to at all. Anyone coming by my honey stand at the Farmers markets get a free ear full of education on honey and bees. Plenty of pictures and handouts. I made a market for my honey. I sent some to China a week ago. That's a good twist. The main point is , don't get caught up on labels. The product inside will do you well in business. Do the best that you can and believe in what you are doing. Quality is Job 1 ! Best Regards Roy > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Warning for Complaisant Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Late winter/early spring is an exceedingly dangerous time for = honeybees. Inexperienced beekeepers often assume, too soon, that the = bees have made it through the winter. The sight of spring flowers and = bees visiting them, makes the keeper think the bees will now feed = themselves. Sadly this is not always true. The appearance of spring flowers does not equal a serious nectar = flow. Oftentimes spring and winter are trading blows, and, while spring = will eventually win, the bees have many hours they cannot work, due to = overcast, rain, cold or wind. Yet their need for food has increased = exponentially with the massive brood rearing of early spring. The most = powerful hives can go from apparent prosperity to starvation in just a = few days, if they do not have enough reserves. Hives that seemed to have = plenty of reserves a month earlier, may be teetering on the edge before = the REAL spring arrives. A short pictorial is available at = http://pollinator.com/starving_bees.htm that explains the danger, and = steps that can be taken to prevent it. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:46:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Roy and All, I use the same basic method as Roy for the health food stores during = harvest time. The real challenge is to be able to supply the stores with = the same product 6 to 11 months after harvest.=20 Roy wrote; =20 The real problem in the US is the heating for the filtering process. = They crank it up to 155 F filter and quick cool. It inverts the sugar and good-bye = honey. Its yellow but dead When you reach a scale of selling in stores you quickly understand why = the above is done. Dyce in his original patent for creamed honey found = a temperature of 150 F. was needed to completely eliminate crystals. If = you are to heat to 150 F. and not do serious damage to flavor you need = to cool as rapid as possible. Technically if the heating is not to 160 = F. the above honey is not pasteurized from what I have read and if the = honey is only at 155 F. for a instant. =20 Most packers operations running I have observed run the temperature = for pasteurization at around 170 F. Faster bottling is the reason I = was told.=20 Honey on supermarket shelves done as above can not be told from my = health food grade on hot biscuits or pancakes. Most consumers simply do = not care to pay the extra price for health food grade , put up with the = constant crystallizing of health food grade and many consumers are = simply uninformed as to health benefits of honey. =20 Pressure filtering with a high micron filter removes quite a bit from = the honey. Pressure filtering with earth even more. I do not know of a = large packer which does not pressure filter honey.=20 I never put down supermarket honey because of methods but will point = out differences in methods of processing if asked by store owners. = Supermarkets never ask. When you have got a barrel of solid honey the = only answer is to use heat to liquefy and if you want sparkling clear = honey you pressure filter.=20 When you are supplying a huge number of stores you (in my opinion) do = both. Competition in supermarkets is unreal. You can not compete with = crystallizing honey and organ honey ( bee parts included). It is kind of fun to try and figure out which bee part you are looking = at such as part of wing, leg etc. in *organ honey* (as long as the jar = has not got your label on it). If one looks close enough you can at times find very small black specs = in honey strained through nylon. Informed buyers in health food = stores never complain as they realize the process.=20 I am always amazed the person which will complain about a small speck of = beeswax in a jar will never complain if the speck is in a jar of chunk = honey. Hmmm. Has anyone ever been seriously injured by ingesting a bee part or small = piece of beeswax? I think not. According to an issue of National Geographic magazine years ago some of = the oldest and healthiest people in the world had a diet partly of raw = honey. They sold the clear honey and consumed the pollen filled and = bee organ honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison=20 Ps. Please be careful when you put down supermarket honey as the = suppliers are part of our industry and are only providing what the = stores want. Only a very very small segment of the world wants health = food grade honey. Uninformed customers shock me at times with things = they have heard from uninformed beekeepers about supermarket honey.=20 Rather than say supermarket pasteurized and pressure filtered honey is = inferior just sell either your unprocessed honey and point out the = differences or direct the consumer to a nearby health food store selling = local, not pressure heated or pasteurized honey.=20 . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:40:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Warning for Complaisant Beekeepers In-Reply-To: <200203241036.g2OAaUHV024762@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thats a good article on your website Dave.All beginning beekeepers should check it out,and the old timers should too just to remind yourself of what happens when you try to skimp on feed. Hefting the back of the hives to check weight is OK but opening the hive to verify the actual amount in the combs on the ones that seem a little light will be better. In California right now,the almonds have finished blooming.If the hives were good going in they had enough good weather this year to pick up some weight,but some of that weight is brood so be careful.Of course the marginal pollinators are probably light and may starve if the weather turns rainy for very long.In California you can get Drivert sugar from Dadant and can keep the bees from starving by just pouring it in .The bees wont waste it.Most Ca. beekeepers feed syrup with a gallon can set on a hole drilled in the lid ,or use an inside feeder. Overfeeding is a waste,but underfed hives will cut back on broodraising in order to conserve,depending on the strain of bee.Some dark strains are so conservative they will never starve,but also wont build up in time to ever gather much more than a minimum surplus.On the other hand you have certain very prolific yellow types that seem to enjoy living on the edge and will commit every drop of honey to brood rearing.This type will starve 15 minutes after it starts raining ,with 15 lbs of bees in the hive(ok,Im exagerrating a little)I think the best bee is somewhere in between,like mostly Italian with some Carn mixed in.JMHO ----Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:41:09 +0100 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Chloramphenicol in chinese honey! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo to all Bee-L readers! In my recent Bee Journal "Deutsches Bienenjournal" there is a statement on page 15 saying that the EU has banned all imports of chinese honey beeing effective from March 14, 2002. Thy found chloramphenicol - not streptomycin in chines honey. This effects 32.000 metric tons yearly. There had to be withdrawn from the market 120.000 metric tons of conflakes in Germany, which had used such chinese honey as an addition. Best ragards Ahlert ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:19:01 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: Biosynthesis of an organofluorine molecule Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When I pointed out that the fluvalinate (e.g. Apistan®) molecule contains fluorine covalently bonded to carbon, and vaguely predicted trouble on the general ground that this is a very unusual thing in nature, the following had not emerged: >Biochemistry: Biosynthesis of an organofluorine molecule >D O'HAGAN, C SCHAFFRATH, S L COBB, J T G HAMILTON & C D MURPHY >http://www.nature.com/nlink/v416/n6878/abs/416279a_fs.html The title of this new paper is very significant: it reinforces the point that organic compounds of F are very rare in nature, so metabolism of such compounds may well be extremely rare. The precedent for this is of course the widespread failure to metabolise organic compounds of chlorine, which is a main reason for the notorious bioaccumulations of organochlorines e.g. DDT. The same Barry Commoner who has just lately published in Harpers a superb article on gene-tampering predicted around 1960 this type of problem, just because the carbon-chlorine bond is so rare in nature. Well, the carbon-fluorine bond is even rarer. R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:20:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Iulian Subject: cristalised honey and twin hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi ! My name is Iulian Necula, I'm from Romania and keen on beekeeping. I have some questions: How can I extract the cristalised honey from a comb ? Where can I find informations and plans of twin hive(double hive) ? It's a good idea to cover round on winter the beehive with plate polystyren ? Regards, Iulian Necula necula@csc.ro ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Raw honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings It is apparent that there are two schools of thought regarding the heating of honey. One school classifies honey as a confection on the shelf with things like jams, jellies and maple syrup, all of which have been heated and cooked as a matter of course. Another school attributes to honey some special nutritional properties which must not be exposed to heat. What exactly are these properties and what is their role in human nutrition?! Aren't people simply trying to create an aura of mystery around an ordinary food product? I seriously doubt that whether you use honey that is raw, somewhat heated, or flash heated to 200 degrees -- makes any difference in terms of overall nutrition. Most of the food that we eat is cooked anyway. You can get more nutritional benefit from a raw apple or orange than from honey. If you are going to appeal to a niche market, that's fine. If the niche market thinks honey should be raw, that's fine. But to cast aspersions on the honey that is produced by the general beekeeper is counter-productive, in my opinion, and not backed up by facts. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:32:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeps, Can anyone tell me where I can buy some fondant so I can make patties on my bees. I seen a advertizement somewhere and now cant recall where. preacher ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: isolated mating yard Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the fourth year of a breeding program. I am already seeing great results, but have a question. I have been getting my virgins mated in the various yards I am running. I have the option of starting a new yard in the mountains in an isolated area. Drone colonies would be placed there, and my mating nucs would be brought in. I am selecting for wintering ability, honey production, and resistance to chalkbrood. My question. Is this necessary, or even warranted? It means a 100 mile trip. Maybe worth it if the results are there. But, will I be leaving genetic material behind? In the short run perhaps an isolated yard would be best, but I have a feeling that if I saturate my area with good stock, I would get good results. In the long run, would this not be a better approach? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Labels and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Honey on supermarket shelves done as above can not be told from my = > health food grade on hot biscuits or pancakes. Most consumers simply do = > not care to pay the extra price for health food grade , put up with the = > constant crystallizing of health food grade and many consumers are = > simply uninformed as to health benefits of honey. =20 I hated to cut even a part of Bob's exceptional post. He addresses the issue perfectly and practically. There are those who are willing to pay a premium, not for the product but the process. The problem is that they are few, usually less than 20% of the market. They believe that the process makes a difference in the product, even if facts show otherwise, so they are a sustainable market, as long as prosperity reigns. Everyone else, including most of the world, shops on price. Sometimes it is informed, but usually not. I care about pesticides, genetic modification, cheap labor, etc., but since none of the food comes with that kind of label and I have some assurance that someone is checking to make sure it is safe, then cheap is good. The area that a product can move beyond that 20% barrier is if it can be shown to have health benefits that the public has a desire to attain. If it cures (fill in the blank), reduces weight even if you eat a carload, or makes you live to 120, all will increase sales. But there is little evidence that raw or organic honey does any of that. (Even though I have many people who want my raw honey to cure allergies and swear by it. I have my doubts, since I still react to something in the air during summer.) For most of the general public, honey is honey and broccoli is broccoli, regardless of the process. And I tend to agree with them, especially if you are just looking for something to sweeten your pancakes (using honey not broccoli). Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Susanne Subject: Re: cristalised honey and twin hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi ! > My name is Iulian Necula, I'm from Romania and keen on beekeeping. > I have some questions: > How can I extract the cristalised honey from a comb ? > I have taken crystallized honey out of comb by soaking and rinsing carefully in warm water. Afterwards, the bees fixed them up. Sue Orillia, ON ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:14:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Crutchfield wrote: > > Hello beekeeps, > Can anyone tell me where I can buy some fondant so I can make patties on my > bees. I seen a advertizement somewhere and now cant recall where. > preacher This is not an answer to your specific question, but why do you need fondant when plain white sugar is fine for feed? I feed candy, which gives you water and sugar in a concentrated form, which is what I think you are looking for. Candy is perfect for cold weather, late winter/early spring feed (as is now the case here in Maine). Use syrup if the weather is warm and the bees are flying regularly. For candy: Heat one package (5 lb.) of sugar and one pint water to 242F. Pour out into a rimmed, greased cookie sheet and allow to cool. Cut into blocks about 6"x6" and place right over the bees on the top bars (do not block the hole in the inner cover). What you do not use can be packaged and put in the freezer for next year. If you are looking for fondant for crisco patties then sugar works fine there also. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:20:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Enzymes in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, Several people have asserted that there are valuable enzymes in honey that are damaged or destroyed by heating. I do not dispute this, although I would point out that prolonged exposure to low heat (90F to 110F) can have the same effect as brief exposure to high heat (160F to 200F). Honey is often heated to kill yeast that may cause it to ferment. It is seldom heated to the extent as say, milk, since the correct pasteurization process is not needed for honey at all. But no one has presented the reasons why we should be concerned about these enzymes. Does anyone have any evidence, other than folk remedies, that these enzymes are important to human nutrition? I am not saying there is no evidence -- just that I haven't seen it. (It is most certainly a moot point whether or not to heat honey if it is going to be put into anything cooked --like cakes or bread.) pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:18:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Greetings > It is apparent that there are two schools of thought regarding the > heating of honey. One school classifies honey as a confection on the > shelf with things like jams, jellies and maple syrup, all of which > have been heated and cooked as a matter of course. > Hi Peter and All Honey is much deeper in mans needs than a sweetener. How we know this comes in different ways. First is in the Bible, " Honey is good and good to the taste " The Koran states , Honey will cure anything. I was talking to Muslim yesterday about Raw honey and what he has been taught about honey. This is not just some kind of Religion thing. It has been backed up over time , that it has healing qualities. One publication I have is Honey and Healing , Pamela Munn & Richard Jones, Published April 2001, International Bee Research Association. UK. Where I have had the greatest imput has been from people in different countries. They do not have conner drug stores to go to, so a lot of homemade medications have been formulated over time. > > Another school attributes to honey some special nutritional > properties which must not be exposed to heat. What exactly are these > properties and what is their role in human nutrition?! > Some studies have shown the antioxidant qualities of honey. U of Illinois. A little looking and you can have a years reading in front of you. There are more than enough facts to back up the healing qualities of honey This list is not the place to start a debate about qualities of honey in any depth. Too much has been published and the book I mentioned will give you more references than you can read in a year.. I direct market 20 to 22,000 pounds of raw honey a year and can not keep up with demand. To me that is proof enough that there are a lot of people that want only raw honey. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. US > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Enzymes in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Does anyone have any evidence, other than folk remedies, that these enzymes are important to human nutrition? I am not saying there is no evidence -- just that I haven't seen it. (It is most certainly a moot point whether or not to heat honey if it is going to be put into anything cooked --like cakes or bread.) Peter, No evidence that I know of and I did not see anyone say otherwise in the posts to date. The buyers of the honey think that, as do some beekeepers. This is one of those areas that opinion overrides facts so good luck. We have friends who believe that table salt is bad for you and sea salt is healthy since it contains none of what is in table salt, which is news to most chemists. They also talk a lot about enzymes, and I guess they do not realize that most all the enzymes that we need, our body manufactures from what you feed it. But no way will I ever convince them that they are into folk medicine, if not quackery, since they sell it and say it has cured them of all sorts of stuff. Just eat right and your body will do what is necessary. You certainly do not need to eat seaweed to survive (which is one of the things they sell). In fact, the most conclusive and scientifically rigorous studies show that those who live the longest picked long-lived parents. Hard to do unless you are Shirley Maclaine. The bees produce the enzymes in honey. The ones I know about are for the preservation of honey to keep it from spoiling. Nothing to do with the eater's health, unless you are a bee. There is one area that enzymes in honey are crucial for humans and that is in burn and wound treatment. Without them and you might as well just use a supersaturated sugar solution, as is done in medicine. The enzymes in honey create a hydrogen peroxide interface at the wound surface and keeps it sterile and sloughs off dead skin. That allows the wound to heal from the bottom up and leaves little or no scarring. Works fine as I used it after a major operation, but it has to be raw honey. Check the New Zealand web site for more info on honey and wound treatment (manakua (sp?) honey), as well as The Hive and the Honey Bee. The Chinese use it for burn treatment and it is catching on in other countries. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Enzymes in honey Peter asks "what good are they"? Or, words to that effect. The person who most comes to mind that continually warned about destroying honey enzymes was none other than Roger Morse, former Professor of Apiculture at Cornell. In fact, I was once in the audience when a person asked Roger just the question that Peter is asking. Trouble is, I cannot remember his answer...except that he was convinced they were very valuable. Peter, with your excellent library, could you perhaps find Roger's view on the matter and report it to us? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: raw honey Speaking of which, everyone should be familiar with http://www.reallyrawhoney.com. $5 a pound in 24 pound buckets; $10 for a one-pound jar! And she sells out every year! 100% granulated (not creamed), bee legs, etc just fine as it indicates a lack of processing! What marketing! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:48:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Enzymes in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I cannot speak to the efficacy of the enzymes found in honey but I understand the principles involved when heat is applied. Enzymes are typically large molecules that are enfolded back on themselves. Heat, denatures, or breaks these bonds that are relative weak as compared to ionic or covalent bonds that result from electron exchange or sharing. The bonds of folded portions of a molecule are due to differences in charges of groups of atoms in one area of the molecule. Heat straights the molecules and therefore some of their properties are lost. The issue seems to be not one of losing atoms but of the lost properties due to a molecule straightening out. Our digestion breaks down many molecules anyway before they are absorbed in the gut. My guess is that the weaker bonds of folded molecules are lost anyway in our gut. A question for a beekeeper chemist trained in human metabolism to answer. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:10:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fondant is very easy to make at home. It is simply white sugar and water, brought to a very slow boil and reduced to where when you put a wooden spoon in the boiling syup , take the spoon out and hold it up to the light. When you see a very long thread spinning from the dropletit is cooked enough. Just pour it onto a large flat surface, A large platter is fine, and cool to just about the temperature of your own hands. Then beat vigoroously ( wooden spoon if available) You will easily recognize when it has turned to the fondant stage. Just make your patties from this. All it takes from here to make delicious candy for humans is the addition of a bit of color and flavor during the final beating. Eunice From: "Dennis Crutchfield" To: Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 12:32 AM Subject: Fondant > Hello beekeeps, > Can anyone tell me where I can buy some fondant so I can make patties on my > bees. I seen a advertizement somewhere and now cant recall where. > preacher > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter: I am sure there is no significant nutritional difference in honey that is unheated and honey that has been gently heated, say to less than 120 deg F. There is a significant difference to the taste, however, and it does not take a very developed palate to notice it. Some people prefer the raw taste and others prefer the heated taste. I keep some of each kind around. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:19:14 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Watson, Owen" Subject: Dutch tobacco smoker In-Reply-To: <200203251634.g2PDeLSx018965@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I bought a Dutch smoker specially made for tobacco (it's about a quarter the size of a regular smoker, and with a mouthpiece instead of bellows) about 20 years ago, and I've lost the directions. I've started to use it again, but it seems to go out very easily. Is there anyone who has one that works OK who can advise? -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:32:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Very interesting new research about the small hive beetle has been = published in this months ABJ by James Ellis. It seems the small hive beetle can and does solicit food from worker = bees. James also writes the bees keep the small hive beetle confined in = prison areas. The article is a *must read* for those interested in the small hive = beetle. * Life Behind Bars: Why Honey Bees Feed small Hive Beetles* by James = Ellis American Bee Journal April 2002 pg. 267. =20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:44:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Queens and Nucs: South Carolina Pictorial Diary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For a photo story of Kutik's queen rearing and nuc production, as = well as other typical beekeeping jobs, see: http://kutikshoney.com/ and = click on "All About Our Work." Chuck and Karen Kutik are migratory = eastern US commercial beekeepers. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:51:23 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Apiguard treatment In-Reply-To: <200203211155.g2LBtIHV018696@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> BTW the thymol molecule has 14 not 140 hydrogen atoms. to which Murray rightly commented >?????? > >Not being a chemist at all I cannot dispute these formulae, however, I read >the disputed formula as having 14 hydrogen. Not 140. The last digit is >actually an O for Oxygen. I apologise for being on that occasion somewhat indirect & ironic rather than straightforward. Murray is of course correct. I should have added what he now says. Thymol is in the class phenols i.e. the quintessential aromatic molecule benzene (6 carbons in a regular hexagon) with an -OH group (an oxygen atom and a hydrogen) at one position. The further substitutions on that benzene ring in thymol are a one-C and a 3-C hydrocarbon group; and in a particular geometry in common with many other natural molecules, ancient in evolution and widely metabolisable. We therefore don't expect such molecules to bioaccumulate as do exotic polychlorinated or polyfluorinated molecules such as DDT & its derivatives which enzymes can metabolise little if at all. Murray further feels: >Robt. Mann, who has in the past called himself a 'neutral ecologist' has >firmly nailed his colours to the mast by declaring as he did in his last post. This term 'neutral ecologist' is news to me; I've not heard of it, let alone used it of myself. My attitudes in applied ecology have been - I had thought - quite clear previously. They are v similar to those of Paul & Ann Ehrlich and other activist ecologists. For details, see their textbook (with John Holdren) 'Ecoscience' (Freeman). The briefest summary might be: scientific ecology applied to conservation politics. That has been my stance for 3 decades; I'm disappointed if it was ever unclear to anyone. The main difference is that I, unlike the Ehrlichs, embrace as a maxim within scientific ethics the last verse of Mrs C F Alexander's magnificent hymn 'All Things Bright & Beautiful': He gave us eyes to see them And lips that we might tell How great is God Almighty Who hath made all things well. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:04:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/25/02 12:35:22 PM GMT Standard Time, preacherc@CVALLEY.NET writes: > Can anyone tell me where I can buy some fondant so I can make patties on my > bees. I seen a advertizement somewhere and now cant recall where. > preacher > Firstly, consult Allen Dicks web site where he has info on the subject. To avoid all the fuss and uncertainty in manufacturing this product you can buy it by the block from bakery wholesalers. Just cut it to the required size and bag it to prevent evaporation of the water content, and cut the side in contact witht he cluster to give them access and let them just eat it out of the bag. It is usually the product they use for icing cakes and you MUST get the plain additive and flavouring free stuff. The best is mechanically produced, ie never cooked or boiled, and is a beaten together combination of liquid glucose/fructose and powdered sucrose. Murray ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: enzymes are in a class by themselves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable gentleman, Enzymes are the only biologically active-living- component of the food = complex. The proteins, carbohydrates, fats, fiber, minerals and vitamins = are inanimate "building materials"-animated by the enzymes.The enzymes = digest, metabolize and use the"building materials" to build and rebuild = our bodies. This biological force is the very core of every enzyme. Various names = such as life energy, life force, life principle, vitality, vital force, = strength, and nerve energy have been offered to describe this = energy.Without the life energy of enzymes we would be nothing more than = a pile of lifeless chemical substances .In both maintaining health and = in healing, enzymes and only enzymes do the actual work.. They are what = we call in metabolism, the body's labor force. Let me say that each one of us is given a limited supply of bodily = enzyme energy at birth, although some would dispute this . This supply = of enzyme has to last a lifetime. The faster you use up your enzyme = supply, the shorter your life. A great deal of our enzyme energy is = wasted haphazardly throughout life. The habit of cooking our food and = eating it processed with chemicals; and the use of alcohol, drugs, and = junk food all draw out tremendous quantities of enzymes from our limited = supply. Gentleman ,to supplement your enzymes, one must eat raw food as much = as he can, for all life whether plant or animal, requires the presence = of enzymes to keep it going. But the mere touch of heat destroys them. = If water is hot enough to feel uncomfortable to the hand, it will injure = enzymes in food and that includes honey. george seferiadis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:14:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P&SMEdwards Subject: Re: Streptomycin in honey Both streptomycin and chloramphenicol have been found. http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/chinesehoney Bottom of page gives details for streptomycin. There is no honey at all on the supermarket shelves around here (Stratford-upon-Avon). As far as I know, this is not the good news for Australia that you might think at first, because the Chinese honey seems to have been blended so widely. The demand is for pure home produced honey. Hooray! Peter Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & M Weatherhead" > The official reports we received here in Australia said that the antibiotic > found was chloramphenicol. Can you give me a reference re the streptomycin. > They tell me that Aussie honey is now on the UK shelves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:54:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Really raw Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Quote: Speaking of which, everyone should be familiar with http://www.reallyrawhoney.com. $5 a pound in 24 pound buckets; $10 for a one-pound jar! And she sells out every year! Reply: This is what I am talking about. What is in the honey that makes it ten times as valuable as it normally would be? I have seen this product and looks to me like it has a bit more than just wax and pollen floating in it. I wonder how these people would react to brown debris floating in their milk? Honey sold at a price like that is snake oil. The main reason I heat honey, aside from when it needs to be liquefied to get it out of the pail or drum, is to remove foreign matter like insect parts, etc. I wouldn't eat that stuff and I wouldn't expect anyone else to. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:11:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: isolated mating yard Comments: To: mpalmer@together.net In-Reply-To: <200203251235.g2PCQJIZ017471@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Mike wrote: My question. Is this necessary, or even warranted? It means a 100 mile trip. Maybe worth it if the results are there. But, will I be leaving genetic material behind? In the short run perhaps an isolated yard would be best, but I have a feeling that if I saturate my area with good stock, I would get good results. In the long run, would this not be a better approach? Reply: If the long run you talke about is the area where you normally work, then what ever results you get 100 miles away would have to be repeatable, after being brought back to were you are with the main body of your colonies anyway.Looks like it would be best to stay home then with your colonies and work it out concerning the chaulk. You say you are getting good results. A hundred miles away while you look for a solution, you may also find another problem unforseen. Further would the bees acclimitizing to both areas be the same? Something else to consider. Would you have to change management slightly also with the moved colonies and then have to change it back when you bring them back? If you are in it for the long haul, then do what you have to do. I think you already know this route is best. So go for it. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:30:00 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Really raw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, & All, > This is what I am talking about. What is in the honey that makes it ten times as valuable as it normally would be? > Personal preference is what it has in it. Most beekeepers complain of not getting enough price for the honey they work really hard for and then some complain of other beekeepers making a bigger price for their honey than normal. I see nothing wrong with beekeepers getting as much as they can get for the honey they worked hard for. The higher priced honey in some cases will make the under priced honey more attractive to buy for the consumer, Or could make some consumers wonder if it's being sold so cheap there might be something wrong with it, and maybe there is. But all of this is personal preference. The honey I consume and harvest from my hives never comes in contact with anything to hot, would be abnormal if it did. > I wonder how these people would react to brown debris floating in their milk? > If you're talking about raw milk, I think it's wonderful stuff, taste great, consume it whenever I can get my hands on it. > Honey sold at a price like that is snake oil. > On the other hand some people think that honey badly treated is snake oil. again personal preference. Also we here in Alaska get a premium price for our honey, heated or not, does that make it snake oil? > I wouldn't eat that stuff and I wouldn't expect anyone else to. > One way of marketing verses another does no harm to anybody. What anyone expects from others has very little to do with the real world, to each there own. Why knock a good thing? Why alter a good thing? Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:16:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Murray and All, ] Murray wrote: =20 It is usually the product they use for icing cakes and you MUST get the = plain additive and flavoring free stuff. The best is mechanically produced, ie never cooked or boiled, and is a beaten together combination of liquid glucose/fructose and powdered sucrose. Computer guru out of state so computer not fixed yet. Sorry! Make sure when buying icing fondant the fondant does not contain = starch. Domino out of New York brand does. A small amount of starch is = OK ( 5 to 8%) *after* bees are flying all the time but can be trouble = when the bees are still in cluster most of the time. =20 =20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:54:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Enzymes in honey In-Reply-To: <200203251501.g2PDAoQv018283@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200203251501.g2PDAoQv018283@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst writes >Honey is often heated to kill yeast that may cause it to ferment. It should not ferment with the correct water content - as the bees seal it. > But no one has presented the reasons why we should >be concerned about these enzymes. It matters not to me that anyone can give a reason. OK, so hydrogen peroxide is one result from enzyme action, presumably one of the ways honey keeps sterile. There may well be more obvious beneficial properties. However, a lack of knowledge or understanding should not prevent anyone insisting on as natural a food as possible. We do too many things with inadequate knowledge and cause damage which may be recognised decades later, when understanding may have been acquired after trying to get to grips with some environmental or other problem. For example, there was huge publicity about deaths which seemed to follow olive oil sales in Spain and France, which were attributed to the oil. Later, it was discovered that tomatoes grown in Portugal were contaminated with organo-phosphate insecticides, determined as the cause of death. Of course olive oil was sold with tomatoes for salad dressing in the markets, hence the association. Less publicity was given to the finding, which is very significant in my opinion. And we still use the stuff! Unfortunately the reductionist way we describe food values by energy or fat content or whatever leaves out everything important in my view. So, lets not think something may not be valuable just because we cannot prove it. My local farmer still thinks putting cow manure on grass is less valuable than chemical fertiliser as there is so little nitrogen in it. As a proponent (and customer) of organic produce, I see animal manure (composted) as feeding and building the soil. After all, soil and plants evolved together. I say leave honey alone. Keep it as close to natural, raw or whatever. Minimize any processing. Another interesting thing. I gather that American doctors routinely prescribe glyco-nutrients before any chemotherapy. These are complex sugars found in sun-ripened fruit and freshly picked vegetables. Most people's diets have fruit picked a long time before, ripened artificially, often having travelled half way across the planet. Vegetables are rarely fresh, though you can often buy things a couple of days old or slightly less. My homeopath sees them as the missing link in their treatments, revolutionising the way he helps his clients. >(It is most certainly a moot point whether or not to heat >honey if it is going to be put into anything cooked --like cakes or bread.) Which is why the European Union rules about honey labelling includes cooking honey - effectively anything not allowed under any other label, and includes heated honey. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:19:16 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: enzymes are in a class by themselves In-Reply-To: <200203261324.g2QDLGHX000228@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I must dispute Geo's vitalism regarding enzymes. Not as a matter of 'pulling rank' but just to assure listees that my opinions on this are well informed, let me mention that I was for many years what in N. Amer would be called an assoc. prof. of biochemistry, and I continue to work on a few aspects of biochemical theory. >Enzymes are the only biologically active-living- component of the food = >complex. This is about as wrong as it could be. Much food is living e.g. an apple. But enzymes are only protein molecules - thousands of different molecules - found in food and in all living things. Enzymes are not alive. > This biological force is the very core of every enzyme. Various names = >such as life energy, life force, life principle, vitality, vital force, = >strength, and nerve energy have been offered to describe this = >energy.Without the life energy of enzymes we would be nothing more than = >a pile of lifeless chemical substances. >In both maintaining health and = >in healing, enzymes and only enzymes do the actual work.. They are what = >we call in metabolism, the body's labor force. It is quite true that enzymes are essential in all life. It does not follow that they are themselves lving. They can be purified and studied like other proteins. They are just chemicals - the most complex that we know of, and extremely interesting, but not endowed with any of the abilities unique to life (reproduction etc). > Let me say that each one of us is given a limited supply of bodily = >enzyme energy at birth, although some would dispute this . Nobody could dispute that an individual is indeed born with a limited amount of this or that enzyme. But they are renewed, and increased in amount, during growth. > This supply >of enzyme has to last a lifetime. For all or nearly all, this is false. >the mere touch of heat destroys them. >If water is hot enough to feel uncomfortable to the hand, it will injure = >enzymes in food and that includes honey. Most are not that labile. The recent discussion proposing time/temp combinations is along the lines we need. Sorry, Geo, but there is solid science on the matters you've raised and I must stand up for it. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:27:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Wisconsin Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When you're done reading this list try "Wisconsin Beekeepers" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wibeekeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:33:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: enzymes are in a class by themselves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Mann wrote: > >Enzymes are the only biologically active-living- component of the food = > >complex. > > This is about as wrong as it could be. Much food is living e.g. > an apple. But enzymes are only protein molecules - thousands of > different molecules - found in food and in all living things. Enzymes > are not alive. They also can be RNA (a fact discovered recently) which is not a protein molecule, but that is nitpicking since most all are proteins. An enzyme is a catalyst and aids chemical reactions in the body. The enzymes in our body are produced by the body in cells. The body does use food to make them but it uses food for a lot of things. And the enzymes break down food as well as help create other chemicals necessary for life. Some of the enzymes we produce are from the breakdown of vitamins, which is why, later in life when the body is less efficient, vitamin supplements are good to help the body produce enzymes along with other chemicals. Robert gave an excellent summary. Enzymes are no more alive than a metallic substrate used as a catalyst in some chemical reactions. The catalyst participates in the reaction by lowering the energy required for the reaction to proceed and can therefore speed the reaction up. But it goes in and comes out unchanged. The enzymes in honey are produced by the bee (there are some traces of plant enzymes as well as other insect enzymes (specifically in honeydew) but do not appear to have much to do with what the bees enzymes do with the nectar). Enzymes can break down or become ineffective in the presence of heat and/or a change in PH. If the conditions were not extreme, they can become full effective if the contitions they require are restored. The most important of the enzymes in honey are used by the bee to invert sucrose to dextrose and levulose so honey will store best. One enzyme in honey (Glucose Oxidase) acts as a catalyst in the presence of water to produce hydrogen peroxide which keeps the honey sterile and prevents ( in the presence of limited amounts of water) fermentation and spoilage. Without water, in low moisture honey, it is inactive. This is the only enzyme that I have found that does something after the honey has been capped. All the others seem to be used in the process of making honey from nectar. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Subject: Removing winter wrap Here is MB CND spring is upon us with temperatures rising well above freezing. I'm placing pollen patties on the hives this week. >From the hives that I had randomly spot checked end of Feb, the hives looked to be holding though the winter with good hive strength and lots of honey reserves. The winter this year has been very mild but I noticed the humidity in the hives has been high. A question I would like to post to the experience northern beekeepers out there is -what factors do you consider before removing the hive winter wrap? At this time during the end of March leading into April, the average temeratures are reaching or exceeding melting. I was thinking of removing the wraps when temp rise above 5degrees sometime first week of April to clean out the dead outs and allow bees to better house keep thier hive. Forcasted temperatures and conditions are very pleasing to my ears and I think spring is going to come in quick. Should I worry about the late winter storm that could come howling down on us? Or will the bees handle the short lived cold conditions just the same as if in their pack? A small Manitoba beekeeper Ian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: APITHERAPISTS TO MEET JULY 26 IN KENTUCKY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 3/27/2002 -- MEDIA ADVISORY -- APITHERAPISTS TO MEET JULY 26 IN KENTUCKY Conference explores healing power of honey bee products WHAT: Apitherapists from around North American will gather in Fort Mitchell, Ky., on July 26, 2002, for the annual Charles Mraz Apitherapy Conference. (Fort Mitchell is just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati, Ohio.) Apitherapy is the medicinal use of honey, beeswax, pollen, propolis,* royal jelly,** and bee venom. The conference includes lectures and workshops on the use of these honey bee products and concludes with an apitherapist certification test. (The word apitherapy is derived from "apis mellifera," the scientific name for the honey bee. For answers to a list of frequently asked questions about apitherapy, go to http://www.apitherapy.org/aapsfaq.htm.) "Our knowledge of apitherapy's medicinal benefits and its use as an alternative treatment are growing at a tremendous rate. This conference offers experienced apitherapists, or those who are just curious about apitherapy, an opportunity to exchange information and to learn about the latest scientific studies and hands-on treatment techniques," said American Apitherapy Society (AAS) President Dr. Théo Cherbuliez (cher-boo-LAY). Anecdotal evidence suggests that apitherapy can be effective both in maintaining good health and in the treatment of skin conditions, viral infections, cardiovascular problems, hearing and vision loss, depression, and other medical complaints. Products such as honey-based antibiotic ointments and anti-viral propolis throat lozenges are already popular in many areas of the world. Apitherapy, in the form of bee venom therapy (BVT), is perhaps best known for its use in treating arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS). A study is currently underway at Georgetown University Hospital in Washington, D.C., to determine the effectiveness of BVT in the treatment of MS. The American Apitherapy Society, Inc. (AAS) is a nonprofit membership organization established for the purpose of advancing the investigation of apitherapy. AAS makes no claims about the safety or efficacy of honey bee products and does not endorse any specific type of apitherapy. Charles Mraz, who died in 1999 at the age of 94, is recognized as a pioneer in the use of BVT to treat autoimmune diseases. In 1994, he published "Health and the Honey Bee," a history of his decades-long experience with that treatment. WHEN: July 26-28, 2002 WHERE: The Drawbridge Inn, Fort Mitchell, Kentucky (10 minutes from the Cincinnati International Airport) SEE: http://www.drawbridgeinn.com/ CONTACT: Kate Chatot, Tel: (802)-563-3033, E-mail: jkjjchatot@cs.com or Sara Cornwall, Tel: (914) 725-7944, Email: aasoffice@apitherapy.org * Propolis is a resinous substance collected by bees from plants and trees and is used to coat the inside of the beehive and the honeycomb cells with an antiseptic layer. ** Royal Jelly is a substance produced by worker bees and is fed to queens. - END - American Apitherapy Society 1209 Post Road Scarsdale, NY 10583-2023 Tel: (914) 725-7944 Fax: (914) 723-0920 E-mail: aasoffice@apitherapy.org URL: http://www.apitherapy.org ---- To SUBSCRIBE to or UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, go to: http://aas.biglist.com/apitherapy/ ----- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:23:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: BT anti-mosquito water additive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Summit" of Baltimore is marketing a product called "Mosquito Dunks" to kill mosquito larvae in standing water. The active ingredient is Bacillus thuringiensis subsp. israelensis primary powder [7000 Aedes aegypti (AA) International Toxic Units (ITU) per mg. primary powder]. The product is sold as doughnut-shaped rings, about the size of a small doughnut. According to the write-up on the package, when a ring is thrown into water, it floats, and over about thirty days dissolves into the water. At first the material floats as a surface film which gradually settles into the water where it is eaten by mosquito larvae and kills them. There is no information in or on the package regarding toxicity to other insects. Does anyone know whether this stuff is toxic to honeybees? Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:13:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BT anti-mosquito water additive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Does anyone know whether this stuff ("Mosquito > Dunks") is toxic to honeybees? Quick answer, it's harmless to honeybees. Full answer can be found in the BEE-L archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris - thinking archives, use 'em early, use 'em often! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:36:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal In-Reply-To: <200203280501.g2S4wGI5003558@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Indiana State Beekeepers Association has published the ISBA Journal for April 2002. It's a free download in sipped pdf format. You can download it from this address www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/i0204.zip ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:49:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: enzymes are in a class by themselves Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you are really interested in raw, unadulterated honey, the way to go is to raise and sell comb honey. Not only is the best tasting, it's the cleanest and purest form. Nobody has mentioned the effect that centifuging has on honey. It incorporates air and often dirt into the honey. That is why we normally settle out the foreign matter, and strain or even filter honey. I am all for getting the best price for honey. But to sell dirty honey as somehow superior to clean honey due to the presence of "enzymes" with no documented benefit, seems dishonest to me. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Enzymes in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Peter asks "what good are they"? Or, words to that effect. > >The person who most comes to mind that continually warned about >destroying honey enzymes was none other than Roger Morse, former >Professor of Apiculture at Cornell. In fact, I was once in the >audience when a person asked Roger just the question that Peter is >asking. Trouble is, I cannot remember his answer...except that he >was convinced they were very valuable. > >Peter, with your excellent library, could you perhaps find Roger's >view on the matter and report it to us? Normally when one *quotes* a person, one uses the words they actually said. What I actually said was: >Another school attributes to honey some special nutritional >properties which must not be exposed to heat. What exactly are these >properties and what is their role in human nutrition?! Aren't people >simply trying to create an aura of mystery around an ordinary food >product? It seems odd that I should be called upon to find support for a position that I do not represent. I classified honey as a confection with jams and maple syrup. Overcooked jams taste terrible, but maple syrup is boiled for hours and tastes great. Anyway, perhaps the following reference with be of use: http://www.orgone.org/ >"ORGONE ENERGY is a Primordial Cosmic Energy; universally present >and demonstrable visually, thermically, electroscopically and by >means of Geiger-Mueller counters. In the living organism: >Bio-energy, Life Energy. Discovered by Wilhelm Reich between 1936 >and 1940." .. Selected Writings 1961 by Wilhelm Reich Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Removing winter wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A question I would like to post to the experience northern beekeepers > out there is > -what factors do you consider before removing the hive winter wrap? Take them off when you can no longer do your necessary tasks with them on. May? Personally, I may leave some of ours on all summer since I have new design that allows working and supering with the wraps on the hives. In Alberta, many northern beekeepers wrap their package bees with (at least) black plastic until mid-May. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Removing winter wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Personally, I may leave some of ours on all summer since I > have new design > that allows working and supering with the wraps on the hives. Share details? Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:04:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Removing winter wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have new design that allows working and supering with the wraps on the hives. > > Share details? Sure. I have documented them fairly well at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ Just choose 'Selected topics' from the menu on the left side and then visit the three 'wraps' links in turn. There is more in the diary about our wraps and a local search of my site will turn up a few more pictures and thoughts that are not indexed. Sorry to be so disorganised, but I just do the site for fun. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Subject: Re: Removing winter wrap Allen Your wraps look great. I wrap my hives with insulation and tar paper in groups of four. I works good for me but comes with a few problems which I'm sure you all know of... time, labour, mice, deadouts ect... Your pack seems to eliminate nearly all of them. A question though. I've been warned that hives have to be able to breath. And I have been given advise that I'm better off packing the hive a little too losse than to seal it off, even with a vent hole in place. Have you found moisture to be a problem with your wrap? Ian