From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:47:13 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DB549098 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sm010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0204A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 131245 Lines: 2877 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:40:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring In-Reply-To: <200204010139.g2VNNdNV026886@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Rick and All, On 31 Mar 2002, at 20:35, Rick Green wrote: I reversed and medicated 60 hives on Saturday and Sunday. Sixty of 60 hives survived and were in excellent strength. Best I have seen in at least 10 years. I medicated last fall with Checkmite. Hives in our area are looking the same. Kind of scary. Checkmite resistance is coming but we have not seen any signs yet. Information for the new beekeeper: If you live in a area which has been getting warm spells and then several days of bitter cold you will find as we have many frames of brood with eggs, ready to emerge brood and also larva. Very common with the weather we have been having in the Midwest this time of year and easily explained. The queen simply stops laying for a few days at a time, lays eggs for a few days and then stops again. Had a undocumented call about small hive beetle about 35 miles north of Kansas City. All his hives were started last year from packages bought from a known SHb area. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:51:20 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Hot tubs and dirty water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too have wondered at the bees interest in "dirty water." For many years I kept bees next to my horse barn and... especially in the spring (there may be something to that)... the bees would seem to have a great interest in the thawing manure pile. I assumed they were acquiring water, but less tasty water was available. Perhaps in the spring there is a need in the hive for minerals not needed during other seasons. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:11:09 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Salt and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a "Foxfire" volume, a chapter on bee keepers in the mountains of N. Georgia and North Carlonia said that they sometimes soaked corn cobs in salt water and put them out for the bees.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:20:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mowat request for drone escape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Drone escapes can be simply engineered by cutting a small portion off the end of the nozzles that are provided for caulking compounds. See http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/coneescapes.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/shaparewbd.html Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Oxalic Acid Evaporator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone on BEE-L had any experience with the Varrox evaporator from Andermatt BIO CONTROL? Or can anyone here read German well enough to chase this idea down? Quoting from http://www.mellifera.de/oxneu.htm "from 95 beekeepers from seven European countries tested the Varrox® evaporator of the company Andermatt BIO CONTROL AG. The data of altogether 1,509 treated bee colonies were entered and analysed. In the field test altogether 797,744 mites and 197,169 bees were counted..." An oxalic evaporator is also described at http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/favorite.htm allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:24:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Gothoney@AOL.COM 03/31/02 07:35PM >>> Rick Green said: I reversed and medicated 60 hives on Saturday and Sunday. Sixty of 60 hives survived and were in excellent strength. Best I have seen in at least 10 years. I medicated last fall with Checkmite. Awesome display of spring strength! >>> I have not treated any of my hives with Apistan or Checkmite (never have used checkmite once) since well over a year ago (none last year) and I am seeing basically the same results. This past winter I lost one hive out of 18. All others are looking great. This is the best year I've seen since I started beekeeping so far as bee health and strength are concerned. Could there be environmental factors at work affecting the mites? I only treat when I see a need, so I haven't treated my bees for a good while now. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:38:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Mowat request for drone escape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/shaparewbd.html I wonder why anyone would use an expensive, complicated board like this when the Quebec board http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Diary/images/PB090370.JPG is available and easy to make. Moreover two or three inch sections of clear plastic hose, wire tubes, and cones are simple and cheap to make from screen that can be found in any home. Screen cones have no problems with bees re-entering when properly made and used out doors. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Drone escapes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry's experience when he wanted "perfect" exclusion is fascinating. Ye= s, I should have admitted that the cones (plastic or the stainless screen= cones that we now use) are not "perfect" excluders, but hardly anyone wa= nts or needs them to be perfect. We knew they were not perfect as occasionally one sees a bee inside a hiv= e with full baskets of pollen. If the cones were perfect excluders that = could not be. Frankly, our biggest challenge is convincing beekeepers th= at they will not harm their hives by trapping pollen (mainly because some= catalogs advise beekeepers to not leave their traps open for more than a= few days), so we never get to the point of admitting that a few bees get= back in through the cones. Please consider that when used in a pollen trap, or as a one-way escape f= or bee removal from a house, etc., the bees deliberately have an alternat= ive place to go. In the case of a pollen trap, they can enter through th= e entrance that strips their pollen. In the other case, they have a nuc/= hive placed nearby with brood. If the bees did not have such alternative= s, I suspect that a very large percentage would get back in via the narro= w end...as Jerry reports. Lloyd www.rossrounds.com Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:45:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Mowat request for drone escape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen wrote: > Screen cones have no problems with bees re-entering when > properly made and used out doors. Until reading Jerry's post I would have said the same thing about plastic cone escapes. Jerry, have you any data regarding screen escape cones? I agree with Allen's assertion about the "Quebec (escape) board". They're cheap and easy and work well. Aaron Morris - thinking cheap and easy! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:41:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring I agree - this winter was wonderful for bees here also in southeastern Michigan! I lost one very early to starvation, began feeding those in need, and lost no more out of the 75 that went into winter. I also used Checkmite, and find that only one treatment (in fall) is necessary. All colonies are moderately strong to very strong now. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:39:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring In-Reply-To: <200204011526.g31EMJKe002691@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Layne and All, Layne wrote: I only treat when I see a need, so I haven't treated my bees for a good while now. Being always interested in methods others use to determine when and when not to treat for varroa could you share your methods with us. Every researcher i ask tells a different story on mite threshold. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Quebec board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, having lived in Quebec for a number of years now and used the "Quebec" board illustrated below; l have found another similar board (here in Quebec) which with minor modifications works as well as the one below but is much easier to make. I have no photographs at present but will take one later this week and could send it to those interested. The hole is now drilled close to the short side and just one triangle is used with one opening. This triangle stretches almost the whole length of the board. I am aware of the disadvantages of just one exit but it appears to work well and not get blocked. One very important thing to remember is to make the frame around the board DEEP. On the screen side mine are over one inch and on the other at least 3/4". If you do not have sufficient depth on the screen side the bees may build burr comb and when you come to remove the board the screen gets ripped off. The extra depth appears to make it easier for the bees to go down as there is plenty of space to cluster under the board. Peter > I wonder why anyone would use an expensive, complicated board like this when > the Quebec board http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Diary/images/PB090370.JPG > is available and easy to make. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:45:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Hive strength My hives are also very strong. Have not yet found a dead hive, but did have some I had to feed. Like some others, I did not treat last fall...and worried every week! Last year I did freeze drone brood an average of 3X per hive, and I almost completely use screened bottom boards, but don't know that those were the reasons why Varroa seemed non-existent last fall. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring Thanks to good advise, much of which came from BEE-L, and to locations with lots of eucalyptus and wild flowers, I've already taken off 3 shallow supers this year from some of the strong hives. I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I think it's due to re-queening, checkmite, medicated grease patties in the fall, and the fact that the bees don't have any competition anymore. In our area of the California coast, there simply are no more ferral bees. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: I have extra queens coming, what should i do with them? In-Reply-To: <200204011526.g31EMJKe002691@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I currently have four hives. I ordered a new one that I will set up this week. I also ordered one nuc, one 4 lb box and 2 queens. I did that in anticipation of winter losses. But all my hives came through fine and seem quite strong. I will put the nuc in the new hive, but what should I do with the 4 lb box and the two queens? The bees are all Russian, and I would like to convert my other hives to Russian (They are Italian now.) Should I re-queen two hives, or will that set them back for nectar flow? Should I add the 4 lb box to the nuc (I have 2 new deep supers.)? If I combine the nuc and the box, how do I do it and what do I do with the extra queen? Any advice? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Follow up on the 60 of 60 hives I found this past weekend in the northeast that were found to be incredibly strong, first time in 10 years!. I placed a sticky board down on 6 hives and after 48 hours saw no mites. Does any one have a quanitative measure of the number of mites found and the estimated infestation levels? and treatment advisability? No mites of course means no treatment but what if I had found 10/sq foot, 20, 50 or 100, etc? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:05:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Hive strength this spring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM 04/01/02 11:39AM >>> Bob Harrison Wrote: Layne wrote: I only treat when I see a need, so I haven't treated my bees for a good while now. Being always interested in methods others use to determine when and when not to treat for varroa could you share your methods with us. Every researcher i ask tells a different story on mite threshold. >>> One of the charms of the Internet and of this discussion list is that there is a degree of anonymity, even when we sign our names and tell people where we are from. They do not know our background, our experience, or our expertise or training unless we tell them about ourselves. People make assumptions about others based on what they write and how they write (at least I do). I prefer to remain anonymous and keep people guessing who I am and how much I know and how I know it. It's more fun that way. Having said that, I am afraid that my response to your request may be disappointing: I am not sure if you assumed that I am a researcher, but I am not (at least that is not what I do for a living). I do not use a "mite threshold" as in IPM, and I do not count mites per se. I watch for bees tossing out deformed pupae, for deformed wings on drones, and for mites on bees when I inspect a hive. If I see those things, I know I have a problem. If it's a hive I want to save, I treat it in such a way as to not contaminate honey or honey supers. I prefer to not spend money on expensive chemicals and I can afford to lose bees because I do not make my living from them. I figure that with enough experience I will learn how to keep bees successfully without using poisonous chemicals. At least that is my goal. One of the reasons I know as much as I do (and how much or little is that?) is that I have tried a great number of things and, as Jim Satterfield would say, "I let the bees tell me." I find that often I end up having the same results as my friends in the area who use the chemicals religiously. That's why I wonder if there are not a lot more factors involved besides whether or not you treat your bees with chemicals. There is still so much to learn. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:26:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mowat request for drone escape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/shaparewbd.html > > I wonder why anyone would use an expensive, complicated board like this when > the Quebec board http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Diary/images/PB090370.JPG > is available and easy to make. I was not recommending widespread adoption of the shaparew escape board, they are complicated and expensive to make as Allen has pointed out. However they do work, I have used them personally, and when I was in business they sold better than the http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/boone.html Type which was simpler and only half the price (we did not make Quebec boards, although I have used them myself) There is a list of types of escape board that I have been compiling for a couple of years at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clearerboards.html To be frank, I would not recommend any of them over any of the other types, they all work about the same. The most effective as a 'one way valve' is the portcullis escape. I have several boards with two of these fitted at diagonal corners. The type that I have used most often is the '8 way', but that is probably because 90% of my escape boards are of this type. I am not familiar with the term 'screen cone' can someone describe in more detail? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:55:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Kraus Subject: Re: I have extra queens coming, what should i do with them? In-Reply-To: <200204012040.g31EMJoi002691@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Put the package into one of the empty deeps, put a few frames of bees and brood from your strongest hive into the other empty deep(or just bees), and add the extra queen. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:01:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Feral Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. I've been approached by a couple with a feral hive in a tree in their suburban garden; I haven't seen it yet. Apparently (they're not beekeepers) the colony has been there for a number of years, and has thrown several swarms in that time; everyone keeps indoors for a bit when a swarm comes out, then when it settles life goes back to normal. Other people are better qualified than me to judge this; the area has had varroa for a number of years. The problem is, they're planning to move in the next couple of months, and are apprehensive that the next owners may not be bee-tolerant, so they'd like the bees moved before then if possible, without wrecking the oak tree they're in. Does anyone know a fairly quick way of getting the bees out (I do know about the cone method but it takes too long) which doesn't involve felling the tree, and preferably saves the genetic material? I know I'm asking for the moon, but I want to help if I can. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:54:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anya Subject: Re: Spraying Fine Sugar for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you tried lactic acid yet? Or liquid paraffin? J. J. > Another beekeeper and myself are experimenting with various IPM controls for > varroa, one of which is finely ground sugar (called icing sugar here in > Ireland and perhaps elsewhere). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: I have extra queens coming, what should i do with them? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Any advice? Tell us where you are located!!!! Aaron Morris - thinking location, location, location ..... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:57:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Feral Hive Comments: To: RSBrenchley@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> RSBrenchley@AOL.COM 04/02/02 07:01AM >>> asks: Does anyone know a fairly quick way of getting the bees out (I do know about the cone method but it takes too long) which doesn't involve felling the tree, and preferably saves the genetic material? >>> Robert, If I were going to try this, here is how I would go about it: I would get some nasty smelling chemical bee repellant used to clear supers (something like BEEGO or whatever is most effective in chasing the bees out). I would then (assuming it is a hollow tree) try and estimate where the bottom of the colony was located and drill a hole into the cavity so as to be below the colony. Into this hole, I would stuff some wicking fabric (maybe cotton) impregnated with a large amount of the chemical. I might even try to enhance the effect with a blow dryer into the hole too, so exhaust fumes would rise and drive the bees out of the top entrance (regular entrance) of the colony. As they spilled out of the hollow and clustered on the outside of the tree, I would take my bee vac (a specially built vacuum contraption used to pick up bees--you can see plans to build one at Barry Birkey's BeeSource web site) and vacuum them up as they came out. You may or may not get the queen to co! me out too. Often they will not leave the brood nest no matter what you do. If you put enough chemical in to drive them all out, it is possible you could pick up the queen too. I have never tried this method, but it is how I would go about it if I needed to accomplish what you are trying to do. Good luck. Tell me how it turns out. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:59:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Re: I have extra queens coming, what should i do with them? In-Reply-To: <200204021417.g32DeCIo011925@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:01 AM 4/2/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > Any advice? > >Tell us where you are located!!!! > >Aaron Morris - thinking location, location, location ..... Northern Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:43:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Removing a feral hive from a tree cavity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've been approached by a couple with a feral hive in a tree in their > suburban garden; I haven't seen it yet.... they'd > like the bees moved before then if possible, without wrecking the oak tree > they're in. Does anyone know a fairly quick way of getting the bees out ... Every year we get the same question and invariably it draws a lot of guesses, but apparently no one has ever reported here on BEE-L successfully managing to get the bees out with the queen in such a situation. Guesses are fun, I suppose, but they get wild and repetitious (see the logs). http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ The only way I know will work with absolute certainty -- and it is simple enough -- is to make an opening at the =very top= of the cavity for the bees to escape and very, very slowly fill the entire cavity with water (though some other hole). The bees will ALL, including the queen, come out the top, if given enough time to retreat in an orderly fashion and if it is done right. Don't use much, if any, smoke and no chemicals -- these things merely disorganize them and you want them to march out in an orderly fashion and cluster nicely so you can sweep them into a box. They have no choice whatsoever using this technique, and it always works smoothly and quietly, but doing this is not always possible due to location, the nature of the cavity, etc. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:43:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Hive strength MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLOYDSPEAR wrote: > > > Last year I did freeze drone brood an average of 3X per hive, and I almost > completely use screened bottom boards, but don't know that those were the > reasons why Varroa seemed non-existent last fall. > Hi Lloyd and all, My Bees are in the best shape coming out of winter this year , against the last 5 to 6 years. I to use screened bottoms ( everything ). No meds in the fall. I can feel and see a shift in behavior in my bees. Much higher Hygienic behavior. I use a 6 x 6 in piece of paper towel in the brood nest.. If I see it out in front of the hive within two days, I have a bunch of Girls that clean house very well. It is easy and fast. I can do all my hives this way. I do weed out the slow ones and requeen. What we are seeing is more complex than any one thing. Mite genetics may be changing in our favor. How, I don't know , but its something to look at. Don't get complacent because of a good winter.We are not at any kind of finish line. Now is the time to stay on top of the queen breeders for the best stock possible. When that happens , then we can enjoy winters like this last one. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Upper Entrance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello All, I enjoyed the recent discussion on upper entrances for colonies. I totally agree with the need for upper entrances, especially for good wintering. I have always notched inner covers (notch side down in winter) but felt I could do more and year round. A couple of times I thought about drilling holes in all of my supers and then somehow plugging them for storage or when not in use. I did drill a few hive bodies over the years, and the bees seemed to appreciate them, but I never really liked permanently altering the box. I bought, and have also made, a number of Imire Shims. They work great and last summer I had my highest ever single colony honey yield from a colony that had three shims on. The only drawback with the shim is the need for extra pieces of equipment and in a really good flow the bees will draw some burr comb in the 3/4 inch space which leads to a mess during harvest. (I know George, if I put enough supers on it won't usually happen.) But sometimes one colony out paces all the others and end up using the space. One of the best ideas to date is one I got from Lloyd Spear. I hope he doesn't mind my sharing it. Cut wood roofing shingles into 3/4 inch strips and attach them to the "bee side" of the inner cover. This gives about a 3/8 inch opening along the top front edge. They may draw a little burr comb but it usually does not amount to much. While some colonies do not use it for a top entrance, I see them using it for ventilation all summer. I am also convinced it allows for better ventilation in winter for moisture removal. I have never been convinced that if bees were designing the hive we give them, they would have the entrance at the bottom. It works great for the beekeepers and the bees adapt. I am intrigued by the new entrance design that has been advertised in the magazines. All the discussion got me thinking. What if I take the same shingle wedges I use on the inner cover and fasten them to the top of a queen excluder? It gives an entrance above the excluder, provides some additional ventilation, does not trap drones who can still use the bottom entrance. When the supers and excluder comes off there is no extra pieces of equipment to handle. Quite frankly, I don't know how this will work, and unfortunately most of my queen excluders are metal bound. But I do have a few wood bound, so I will experiment with them. If anyone else would like to try this idea, I would appreciate if they would let me know if it worked. As with any new idea, I won't try it on all my colonies, but a few in each yard. If I like the results I will continue, if not, oh well. Take care all. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Removing a feral hive from a tree cavity In-Reply-To: <200204021656.g32GSDIO019364@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:43 AM 4/2/02 -0700, you wrote: >The only way I know will work with absolute certainty -- and it is simple >enough -- is to make an opening at the =very top= of the cavity for the >bees to escape and very, very slowly fill the entire cavity with water >(though some other hole). Great idea, I've never seen that one myself. One other thought, in the effort to maintain the genetic material, if you could manage to fish some comb out with any very young larva or eggs you could raise a new queen from it. I have this very same problem to tackle this spring. The colony is in the wall of a house and has lived there continuously for more than 10 years. If I'm really lucky it might throw off a swarm (possibly letting me capture the old queen) before the homeowner needs them removed. Unfortunately removal of the siding or using water is not an option. I will have time to use the cone method, but was hoping to salvage more than that considering it's strength and longevity without any treatments. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: hive configuration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am setting up some new hives for a friend, and they want to start with = 3 medium supers, for the hive bodies., instead of deep supers. That is = not a problem, but my question is how do you put package bees in the = hive if you have stacked 3 high, or do you put them in the bottom = sectiom, and then add 2 more on top.?? I also have seen some deep supers that have a 1 and 1/2 inch pipe = sticking out of the front, and have the bottom entrance closed off with = wire, so that the bees can't get in that way. Supposed to keep the = small hive beatles down in the hive. If thats the case, can this be = adapted to using the pipe, and medium supers in the as a hive body. ??? Any help will be greatly appreciated, as the bees are due for = installation in the hive shortly. I live in South Carolina. thanks = walt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:40:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Removing a feral hive from a tree cavity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Dick" > The only way I know will work with absolute certainty -- I have successfull drummed bees from walls, and got the queen. I tried this on a colony in a windfall tree last year, but the wood was too rotten to make a good drum. But I think it would work on sound wood. Dave Green SC USA (getting out the rubber mallet) The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joe R." Subject: Formic availability, comparisons I have only a handful of hives and need to take some some action this spring against tracheal mites. I have thought about trying Medhat Nassr's formic acid pads, but am uncertain about where to get small quantities of good quality formic acid. I have only half a dozen hives. How much would I need? Anyone have any suggestions on ready sources? I live in Maine. Also, I have considered as an alternative the menthol crystals and crisco "blue shop towel" method of tracheal mite control in Allen Dick's site. Is there any research on which is more effective? At least the menthol and crisco would be widely available and wouldn't carry quite the fear factor that working with acid does. Can someone help me out? Joe Rankin Stone Corner Farm New Sharon, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:49:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You don't have to treat colonies for tracheal mite in the spring because the queen bee can lay enough brood that tracheal mite damage is not a problem. Almost all bees that die of tracheal mite die in late December or January because the queen has NOT layed any new brood back in late October or November, and hence all these "old" bees are sick with tracheal mites. Menthol KILLS tracheal mites extremely well IF IT IS INSTALLED IN VERY WARM WEATHER which for Maine would probably be August 1st. September would definitely not be warm enough and menthol would not sublime into a gas that kills the mites. Dr. Diana Sammataro's research with GREASE PATTIES earned her a Ph.D., but it labor intensive but works. You mix 2 pounds of plain sugar with 1 pound of Crisco, and make patties about the size of a hamburger. Put one pattie on top of the frames of the bottom brood chamber no later than July 1st, and it MUST BE REPLACED as soon as the bees use it up. Hence it MUST be continuously used for about 5-6 months, from July to December. DO NOT USE ANY TERRAMYCIN EXTENDER PATTIES. This treatment does NOT kill tracheal mites, but controls their population so that they do not harm the bees. I hope I have helped. George Imirie Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:27:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees and Hot tub MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Forest, You must be using the "Midnitebee". I don't like their new WEB site either, but Herb prints all my stuff because he wants to, so I should not complain. Why don't you complain? You can try www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html or www.beeequipment.com/pinkpages.asp although this site runs behind my regular monthly schedule. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:43:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Hive strength MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >What we are seeing is more complex than any one thing. Mite genetics may be changing in our favor. It ain’t finished yet! Having just returned to Alaska from upstate New York, I am very disappointed that most all the hives my father had were done in by mites over the mild winter.. >Don't get complacent because of a good winter. Very wise words, indeed. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:22:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> GImasterBK@aol.com 04/02/02 07:49PM >>> wrote in part: "You don't have to treat colonies for tracheal mite in the spring because = the queen bee can lay enough brood that tracheal mite damage is not a problem. Almost all bees that die of tracheal mite die in late December or January because the queen has NOT layed any new brood back in late October or November, and = hence all these "old" bees are sick with tracheal mites. Menthol KILLS tracheal mites extremely well IF IT IS INSTALLED IN VERY = WARM WEATHER which for Maine would probably be August 1st. September would definitely not be warm enough and menthol would not sublime into a gas = that kills the mites." Sorry to disagree but Dr Basil Furgala clearly showed years ago that the = time to treat tracheal mites here in the north at any rate is in the = spring. Colonies treated in the spring wintered fine while colonies = treated in Sept here in MN died from tracheal mites in the winter. The = mite population is for some reason easier to control in the spring and = treatment then results in very low mite numbers throught the next winter. = =20 Both formic acid and the menthol/oil treatment methods work well for = tracheal mites but only formic acid treatment will reduce varroa mite = levels in the hive as well. Treatment time here in MN for tracheal mites = is May. Our main honey flow doesn't come until late June or more likely = July. FWIW blane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: upper entrances Ron B. questioned whether a "shingle wedge" might work well to provide an upper entrance over a queen excluder. I use excluders when producing honey for extraction (DO NOT USE for comb honey production). As a strong believer in upper entrances for extracted honey production, I accomplish this by setting all supers above the excluder forward by about 2". The bees then use this empty space for entering and exiting the hive (above the excluder) and there are no signs that the rain entering in the back 2" that is exposed has any negative effect. I agree with Ron concerning his questioning of lower entrances. My own theory of how this started goes back to honey production in Langstroth's time. At that time, only comb honey was produced as the extractor had not yet been invented. When producing comb honey, an upper entrance is not desirable as this will darken the comb from bees walking on it. My theory is that beekeepers have kept lower entrances (and solid bottom boards) just because it has always been done that way. On a related subject, Roger Morse used to say that when producing extracted honey one is better off using frames with "ears", or spacers. He claimed that these were added solely for comb honey production, as they save the beekeeper a lot of time by providing automatic spacing. He said that straight frames work a lot better in an extractor, but no one manufacturers them solely because beekeepers have always used frames with the spacers! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 06:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Joe R." wrote: > I have only a handful of hives and need to take some some action this > spring against tracheal mites. I have thought about trying Medhat Nassr's > formic acid pads, > Also, I have considered as an alternative the menthol crystals and > crisco "blue shop towel" method of tracheal mite control My suggestion...Throw away the band-aid treatments, and requeen with resistant stock. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:23:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Spraying Fine sugar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All J.J. wrrote: > > > > Have you tried lactic acid yet? Or liquid paraffin? I have not tried lactic acid. A Fogger which will deliver atomised FGMO into the hive is on its way to me. I look forward to trying it. I am determined to give IPM fair wind and will be using this year: Open Mesh Floors Spraying fine sugar Ipereat (an Italian IPM treatment) Drone Brood removal. FGMO And if the mites get on top of me I will use Bayvarol (the equivalent of Apistan licensed for use in Ireland), and try to improve on my use of the IPM treatments. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I ...need to take some some action this spring against tracheal mites. .. but am uncertain about where to get small quantities of > good quality formic acid...How much would I need? 30 ml of 65% formic each for three treatments. Total 90-100 ml per hive. > Anyone have any suggestions on ready sources? I live in Maine. Drug store. High school chem teacher, Chemical supply houses. Indusrtrial chemical supply. > Also, I have considered as an alternative the menthol crystals and crisco "blue shop towel" method of tracheal mite control in Allen Dick's site. Is there any research on which is more effective? Having used both, and having talked to other smart commercial beekeepers, and having looked to see what the results were a year later, I can say there is no comparison. The shop towel method is by far the easiest, safest, pleasant smelling, and most effective tracheal control method I've used. I do not plan to use formic for tracheal alone again. I *might* consider formic for varroa and tracheal together if there is any sign of Apistan resistance showing up. Otherwise, it is menthol and grease all the way! I used about 8 grams of menthol/hive once last year and can't find any mites in a cursory exam this spring. Previous to the Blue towel treatment, we found lots every year without looking very hard. ...And don't let anyone tell you menthol needs hot weather. If you use the Blue shop towels, make sure it is not too warm out. This method (the menthol is mixed with Crisco and soaked into towels which are placed on the top bars) works well if the days get up to 65 degrees F even if the nights are freezing . If your hives are wrapped the method may even work in slightly cooler weather. Just don't drive the bees out of the hive with it. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: hive configuration In-Reply-To: <200204022109.g32L5SGa029209@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are installing on foundation, I would think you would put the package into a single box (medium or deep). Then add each additional box of foundation after the ones already on have been drawn out. As for the tube entrance, That should work regardless of the size of the hive body used. Any wire mesh used at the bottom to close off the entrance or for a mesh floor would have to be quite small to keep out the hive beetle, since it is about 1/4 the size of a bee (or less). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:27:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: upper entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When producing comb honey, an upper entrance is not > desirable as this will darken the comb from bees walking on it. My theory > is that beekeepers have kept lower entrances (and solid bottom boards) just > because it has always been done that way. Additionally, bees will not fill supers or draw comb in supers unless they are warm. In some climates and some seasons, this is not a problem, even with lots of ventillation. In our area, though, excess ventillation can cost us a crop in some seasons, particularly on comb honey, on weak hives, or hives where the brood chamber is kept down with an excluder. > On a related subject, Roger Morse used to say that when producing extracted > honey one is better off using frames with "ears", or spacers. He claimed > that these were added solely for comb honey production, as they save the > beekeeper a lot of time by providing automatic spacing. He said that > straight frames work a lot better in an extractor, but no one manufacturers > them solely because beekeepers have always used frames with the spacers! Actually, few manufacturers make anything but Hoffman frames simply because anyone can make lots of straight frames at home with a table saw in spare time -- and the commercial frame mfrs cannot compete. Making Hoffman bars is much harder if you do not have the automatic machinery, and they are a premium frame that the mfrs can make money on, since home industry cannot compete in that niche. Many commercial beekeepers, and hobbyists who make their own (cheap), use the straight end bar. I have both straight and Hoffman (and Manley) frames and don't really care, except that they are not interchangeable unless the box has built-in Stoller-type spacers, or unless we space the straight frames manually (a drag). allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:28:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...You don't have to treat colonies for tracheal mite in the spring > Menthol KILLS tracheal mites extremely well IF IT IS INSTALLED IN VERY WARM > WEATHER which for Maine would probably be August 1st. September would > definitely not be warm enough and menthol would not sublime into a gas that > kills the mites... For an entirely opposite perspective and a lot of good info see http://tinyurl.com/21a or http://makeashorterlink.com/?V372560A and read the whole thread. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:59:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Subject: mouse mess Those damn mice!!! They are really making a mess of my insulation wrap material. I'm going to have to replace alot of it. They haven't gotten into my hives as far as I can see, enterences were restricted, but made thier nests above the hives in the insulation. The beeyards are placed close to neighbouring farm yards so I'm a little shy about laying poison, might kill their cats. I really never had a problem with mice since I started into beekeeping. I guess the cats haven't been all that hungery this year!! I'm going to lay poison this next winter. Does anyone have any tips on laying poison? Ian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:38:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: janet montgomrey Subject: Re: mouse mess MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I get a mouse bait station at the local farm supplier and use loose mouse/rat bait. It is built in such a way that a cat or other animal cannot enter. Another method which is cheaper is to use a piece of drain pipe about 3 feet long and place mouse bait packs in the middle. Another method is use a pipe with one end closed and place the pack in the closed end, this pipe can be much shorter and as small as 1/12 inch in diameter, the mice can readily enter but other critters, like cats, cannot. Ian wrote: > . Does > anyone have any tips on laying poison? > > Ian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:39:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Formic availability, comparisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane, Thanks so much for correcting me. I was not aware of this work by Basil indicating that spring is a better treatment time "up north". I tell everyone that even after 70 years of beekeeping, I am still learning. I appreciate your help! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:15:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: mouse mess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, I suggest that you get in contact with your local council pest control manager. She/He would be able to advise and direct you towards the classic things to do and more importantly, those which not to do. A simple technique, which helps local bird life is to place poles (about 1 metre 50cm / 2 metres high) in the ground - in an open area. This allows birds of prey to perch and watch the area for mice/ voles etc. This is valuable in areas where there are few perching/observation posts. Only problem will be placing poison in area where raptors are working and half dead rodents being picked up as prey! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Got.honey@AOL.COM Subject: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit According to 2000 stats: 1. There are 2,620,000 hives in the US, ignoring beekeepers with less than 5 hives. 2. Per Cornell and Roger's study the direct value of honeybees to our economy due to pollination is $16 billion. 3. Divide 2 by 1 yields a per hive contribution of $6106. 4. If we half this figure because feral colonies exist, we are still left with a big per hive value to our economy. Some feel that this calculation justifies a subsidy program to help beekeepers survive, mites, foreign competition, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:14:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Feral hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, Last year I evicted bees from a tight spot by putting a few drops of Bee Go on a sponge attached to the end of a drain rod that I pushed past the bees so that they were driven to where I wanted them. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) In-Reply-To: <200204032302.g33IonXk001576@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It does make you rethink the fairness of that $30-40 pollination contract or the $40 per hive valuation you get if the state burns your bees due to AFB (which is not even close to half of just the cost of the boxes). Of course, the number is arrived at by blithely dismissing all those with fewere than 5 hives (or so it was claimed). Some states count them all -- others probably miss more than just the small guys. Not to mention all those that simply fail to register on purpose. -----Original Message----- From: Got.honey@AOL.COM 3. Divide 2 by 1 yields a per hive contribution of $6106. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:00:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Forrest Zielke Subject: Re: mouse mess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Place a small dish of Coke or Pepsi under or next to the hives. The mice love it. The only problem, they can't belch. You can imagine what happens next. Cats can eat them with no ill effect. Forrest Zielke Ashland, MA USA bab5doll@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:30:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Tentest or homosate Hello all, This evening it was brought to my attention that there is more than one substance used as the board in making formic acid pads. Tentest, which basically is a generic name anyhow, cost about $10 a sheet, and disinigrates rapidly when soak in 65% formic acid. Then there is homosate, a much more solid board, sometimes used to cover cement floors, that takes longer to soak the formic, but does not fall apart as soon. The question is, how long is it before the tentest falls apart? And can the homosate be used more than one year if soaked again? Does it really matter which one is used if you are not going to be storing the pads for say more than a month or two before the bees get them. Thanks in advance for the reply's. Regards, Carm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:27:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doug & Dawn Subject: warmth for drawing comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen commented bees will not fill supers or draw comb in supers unless they are warm. What is the low and high temp in the super for bees to be working? Is the upper ventilation used only to control temperature during hot days so hive does not becomes to hot, or is it also to reduce humidity. Some greenhouses have automatic temperature control by opening and closing ventilation. Maybe the same principle in miniature could work on a beehive. Douglas, Bandon OR ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:32:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Spraying fine sugar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am presently attempting to remove the smell of talcum powder from a Baby Powder box in order to use it to spray on fine sugar, for which task it seems eminently suitable otherwise. I have used washing up liquid, bleach and vinegar, and left the box out in the weather but to no avail. It still smells of the talcum powder. Am I worrying unnecessarily about the smell or is there something else I should use if the smell may be a problem? Thanks as always for any assistance. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:08:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Got.honey@AOL.COM 04/03/02 04:43PM >>> According to 2000 stats: 1. There are 2,620,000 hives in the US, ignoring beekeepers with less than 5 hives. 2. Per Cornell and Roger's study the direct value of honeybees to our economy due to pollination is $16 billion. 3. Divide 2 by 1 yields a per hive contribution of $6106. 4. If we half this figure because feral colonies exist, we are still left with a big per hive value to our economy. Some feel that this calculation justifies a subsidy program to help beekeepers survive, mites, foreign competition, etc. >>> I agree with the sentiment and that kind of statistic is valuable to use as a political arguing point. In general, it is probably even true. I have no doubt that it's a better statistic than is used by most politicians to support the positions and goals they want to achieve. When you get down to specifics, though, each hive will have a different value to the economy, depending on how it is used, where it is located, what population it has, genetic characteristics, etc. etc. For example, my hives, where they are located in a non-agricultural area, probably contribute very little to the national economy as compared to hives sitting in an almond orchard in California, where they would be contributing directly to the economy. My contribution is more along the lines of "one more person who loves bees" and we need all of those we can get too. When you speak of averages and in generalities, though, I believe your position is completely valid. It gives me one more statistic I can now use in justifying my keeping bees and encouraging others to be "bee friendly." "The average value of a beehive to the United States economy is $3,053 !" could be used to justify a lot of things and impress a lot of people. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:52:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Spraying fine sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom, Why not make your own "Varroa Blaster" out of a food grade plastic juice bottle. No harmful residues. Cheap or free and easily replaceable if damaged. Some assemble required though :>). You can heat a frame nail and melt a few small holes in the lid rather than drill them. The piece of nylon stocking between the cap and the bottle will trap any sugar clumps that would plug up the holes so there is no sifting or high humidity impacts. Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: mouse mess In-Reply-To: <200204040004.g33NPnHc013477@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I accidently found a pretty good mouse trap this winter. I use water and fermented honey in a gallon milk container (about 1/3 full) to catch yellow jackets in the fall. They work well catching the yellow jackets and the bees pretty much ignore the traps. This winter I neglected picking one up and had left it next to a hive. Late in the winter I noticed that 3 mice had drowned. I've no idea how well it works, but I intend to be lazy this next year and leave them out just to see. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:52:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: warmth for drawing comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen commented bees will not fill supers or draw comb in supers unless they are warm. > What is the low and high temp in the super for bees to be working? I really do not know. Maybe someone else does? Around 90 degrees F in the hive is always nice for the the bees. They are basically tropical insects. They keep the brood area in a very narrow range around 95 degrees, if I recall. What are the temperatures in areas where comb is being built? Anyone? Someone, somewhere, has comb being built right now. A little remote reading $10 thermometer could tell us. > Is the upper ventilation used only to control temperature during hot days > so hive does not become to hot, or is it also to reduce humidity. This is why it is hard to understand. One observation -- or even a series of them in one place and time -- will not tell the whole story. There are conflicting needs, and the hive environment (temperature and humidity) is a compromise that moves around depending on priorities of the moment and the ambient conditions. > Some greenhouses have automatic temperature control > by opening and closing ventilation. Maybe the same principle > in miniature could work on a beehive. I've often wondered about a self-opening and self-closing vent. How about one the bees could learn to open and close themselves? We had a goat that turned the goat house light on and off to suit herself. Our cats come and go out a door they can operate themselves. Maybe the bees could do the same sort of thing with a vent. We could write instructions on the control lever in bee dance language (sorta like a Fred Murray dance footstep pattern). Time for more opinions on bee intelligence and culture? allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:55:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: mouse mess In-Reply-To: <200204032256.g33IonXS001576@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Peter Dillon wrote: <>> > Only problem will be placing poison in area where raptors are working > and half dead rodents being picked up as prey! > ============ Use of zinc phosphide or cholecalciferol based rodenticides should minimize problems with secondary poisoning of predators. Just be sure to read and follow all lable directions. Cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:47:40 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Making claims about the monetary value of honeybee pollination may not be a good idea. Such statements can be counterproductive to the goal of convincing people that beekeeping is an important activity. There have been multiple studies done on this subject. Each study has used better methods than the one before, and each time, the numbers have gone down to roughly 1/2 the prior number, and in the process, undermined the reputation of anyone who presented the prior numbers as "facts". The most recent studies include: A 1983 USDA study "Value of Bee Pollination to US Agriculture", USDA ARS The 1989 Cornell study, "The Value of Honey Bees as Pollinators of U.S. Crops," American Bee Journal (June and July 1989) Willard S. Robinson, Richard Nowogrodzki, and Roger A. Morse A 1992 study by the State Universities of New York at Buffalo and Brockport "Estimating the Economic Value of Honey Bees as Agricultural Pollinators in the United States", Journal of Economic Entomology (June 1992). A 1994 US General Accounting Office report to the Senate & House conferees on the USDA budget. The 1983 study estimated the value of pollination at roughly $19,000,000.00 US. The 1989 study estimated the marginal increase in value attributable to pollination by honeybees (in other words, the value of the increased yield and increased quality due to pollination by ALL honeybees, including feral colonies) at $9,300,000.00 US, and the marginal increase in value of pollination services provided by beekeepers at $3,200,000.00 US. But even the $3.2 billion was a bit of a stretch, given that, for some crops, the entire value of the crop was attributed to pollination, which presumed that without honeybee pollination, there would be no crop at all. The 1992 study (published as a critique of the 1989 study) estimated the value of all pollination (contracted and incidental) at between $1,600,000.00 US and $5,700,000.00 annually. In fact, the opaque complexities of the international commodities markets and the historical flexibility of consumers to cope with shortages by replacing one food in their diet with another, insure that a "value" number will be impossible to nail down without a computer model that would be as intricate as those used to model weather conditions. The last time the issue was looked at by the GAO was in 1994. Tossing around dollar-value numbers backfired on the beekeepers, who used pollination as a justification for honey price supports. Federal price supports were eliminated for honey for the strictly logical reason that honey production and pollination were two very different beekeeping goals, and, in the view of the GAO, honey price supports were encouraging beekeepers to focus on honey production rather than pollination. It is interesting to note that of all the federal commodity programs under attack that year as "wasteful", the honey price support was the only one eliminated. So, at least in 1994, dollar-value numbers turned out to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the foot of every beekeeper who had hoped to "save" the honey program. A much better approach is to stay away from tossing numbers around that cannot withstand scrutiny, and stick to statements that can be supported by verifiable facts. A smart propagandist would get on the "US Food Security" bandwagon, and simply state that honeybees are "cheap insurance" for the production of consistently high yields of table-quality US-produced fruits, veggies, and nuts. (Residents of other countries can insert their own nation's name into the blank without problem, as all countries are concerned about this issue. No country likes depending upon imported food.) It is perfectly fair to state that feral colonies are very rare in places where crops that require (or benefit from) pollination are grown. It is also fair to point out that the practices of monoculture, mechanized farming, and regular pesticide use have eliminated most other pollinators and their habitats, making rental of managed honeybee colonies "the only viable option that remains". If you must use a number, talk about the possibility of a "$5 apple", or "$20 melon" as reasonable outcomes of a lack of honeybees for pollination. Numbers like these are much easier to grasp, and easier to defend, since retail prices for specific foods will certainly go up sharply without pollination. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:42:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Tentest or homosate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit beekeeper82@YAHOO.COM writes: . The question > is, how long is it before the tentest falls apart? And can the homosate be > used more than one year if soaked again? Does it really matter which one is > used if you are not going to be storing the pads for say more than a month > or two before the bees get them. I've used Homasote, the same pads, for about 6 years now. I store them in the plastic bags between seasons. And yes, I soak them each year prior to use. I would worry about the softer tentest crumbling and thus not holding the acid but allowing it to seep out the small perforations in the bag - making a veryt unhappy situation for the bees. .... george ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:07:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: self-opening and self-closing vent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > self-opening and self-closing vent I have seen this at first hand in a full colony observation hive. There were vents in the top made of perforated metal that the bees sealed with propolis when they did not want it, but they re-opened the holes when they needed the ventilation. I am not particularly surprised that they could do this , but I would like to understand the mechanism whereby they 'know' where a blocked up hole is so that they can unblock it. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: mouse mess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last month in upstate NY we were evaporating maple sap into syrup. One evening we had some cooking in the evaporator, but it was getting late, so we decided to shut down. The liquid, which was probably half-way to syrup, was drawn off into some steel pails. Since the pails were steel and also tapered, i.e. wider at the top than the bottom, we assumed any rodents would be unable to get into them so left them uncovered on the floor. The next morning when we returned to continue evaporating, a drowned mouse was discovered in a half-full pail. Apparently it had climbed onto a nearby work stand and dove into the syrup. I guess the mouse couldn’t resist the sweets. Fortunately for us it chose the half-full pail. We decided not to finish evaporating the liquid in that half-full pail which, in the end, would probably have amounted to less than a pint of syrup. So, I suppose if you have any maples in the area and don’t mind the work, you could set out some maple syrup traps. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:47:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: warmth for drawing comb Wax secretion occurs between 91 and 97 F--granted, of course, that there are plentiful nectar, honey, sugar syrup as well as ample pollen consumption (Sammataro and Morse The Beekeeper's Handbook 19). Hence, utilizing this knowledge, a savvy beekeeper puts a captured swarm into work by dumping foundation into the hive. YSK Humdinger Shawnee, OK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:22:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James Fischer warns about, > Making claims about the monetary value of honeybee > pollination citing the most recent studies, the last of which was > A 1994 US General Accounting Office report to the Senate & > House conferees on the USDA budget. Jim's list leaves out the most recent study (I know of) done by Roger Morse and Nick Calderone at Cornell University, which is available online at: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/pollination2000/pg1.html Read it and draw your own conclusions. > ... the value of the increased > yield and increased quality due to pollination by ALL honeybees, > including feral colonies) at $9,300,000.00 US, and the > marginal increase > in value of pollination services provided by beekeepers at > $3,200,000.00 US. > > But even the $3.2 billion was a bit of a stretch, Unless some zeros got dropped in cyberspace, that's 3.2 million, not billion. (Nit picking) > So, at least in 1994, dollar-value numbers turned out to be a > self-inflicted gunshot > wound to the foot of every beekeeper who had hoped to "save" > the honey program. Well, the whole conversation is pointless anyway. Rick Green's original post, estimating the per hive value at (what was the price, I recall $1600 but haven't checked) divided an estimated pollination value (arguably a flawed figure) by an estimated number of hives (definitelt a faulty figure) to arrive at a faulty per hive value figure. Does anyone expect a check in the mail? > If you must use a number, talk about the possibility of a "$5 > apple", or "$20 melon" > as reasonable outcomes of a lack of honeybees for > pollination. Beekeepers can (and do) shout the message. Seems it won't be heard until it comes to pass. Aaron Morris - thinking lies, damned lies, maps and statistics! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:10:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: self-opening and self-closing vent In-Reply-To: <200204051058.g35AwqGS002718@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:07 AM 4/5/02 +0100, you wrote: >I am not particularly surprised that they could do this , but I would like >to understand the mechanism whereby they 'know' where a blocked up hole is >so that they can unblock it. I'm using a combination innercover, insulated and ventallation top box this past winter. It includes an upper entrance similar to the Bee Culture article last year on overwintering single deeps. I was a bit concerned when the bees nearly sealed the openings with propolis. But now that we have some warmer weather they have mostly opened them again. Seems if you give them something they can manage (not too big an opening) they do pretty well on their own. Time will tell, this past winter wasn't a good test case. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:05:30 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arron pointed out a consistent typo in my prior posting. All numbers should have had three more zeroes, as the numbers were billions of US dollars, not millions. (For those in the UK, this should read "thousands of millions", not a British billion, which is a million millions.) Yes, I was aware of the 2000 update to the Cornell study, but I hoped to avoid pummeling a deceased horse. Since Arron has forced my hand, I'll say it - the 2000 Cornell study CONTINUED to use a methodology that had been perforated with holes large enough for safe passage of 55-foot tractor-trailer trucks several years ago. When both one's peers in the scientific community and the US General Accounting Office point the same error in one's study, one can be sure that one has made an error. The basic flaw in the methodology is that no reasonable person is going to credit the entire value of ANY crop to pollination alone, even if pollination is an absolute requirement for that crop. Think about it - someone still has to plant, tend, harvest, pack, and ship the crop, someone has to provide the land, water, labor, and capital equipment. Do these inputs have no value at all? Do the bees get all the credit for every penny of crop value? Of course not. That sort of "beekeeping bookkeeping" is very similar to the sort of manipulation of numbers that got Enron into trouble. Sadly, the net result reduces the entire effort to no more than "boosterism" and propaganda, when a more conservative position of "pollination as a significant value-added process with excellent leverage" would result in widespread consensus. Funny how the "voice of agrarianism", no matter if it comes from a single farmer or a gang of trans-national robber-barons like Arthur Daniels Midland ("ADM - Supermarket to the World") consistently overstates the case that "agriculture is important" to the point of prompting disbelief in an otherwise reasonable statement. David Green's website (http://www.pollinator.com) does a much better job of making the case for the value of pollination than any set of numbers. He has photos of poorly pollinated fruit compared to properly pollinated fruit. This side-by-side photo approach has been used for decades by the makers of "Scott's Miracle Grow" fertilizer with great success. Photos are very effective, since they are hard to debate. If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, then websites and fax machines are the ultimate weapons. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:48:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I give many presentations to non-beekeepers. As beekeepers we all represent this industry to lay audiences. To say that beekeeping is important without some quantifiable measure is not convincing. I say to these audiences that beekeepers get between $100-200 per hive in honey, pollen, and pollination fees, one measure that audiences can grasp. To give an estimate of a hives contribution due to pollination to our agricultural production would help the non-beekeeper understand the importance of honeybees to them. We as a group seem expert at giving precautionary warnings and hard qualifications to each other about what not to say. The inquiry VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY is an attempt to quantify however inexact a measure of a hives value. The feedback I have received has been terrific. This is not an exact science and was said repeatedly by many. But however inexact, do venture an answer, a specific number, to the question - What is a value worth to our economy? Qualify and condition your answer but come up with a number and offer your logic! Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fischer" > The basic flaw in the methodology is that no reasonable person is > going to credit the entire value of ANY crop to pollination alone, > even if pollination is an absolute requirement for that crop. > > Think about it - someone still has to plant, tend, harvest, pack, > and ship the crop, someone has to provide the land, water, labor, > and capital equipment. Do these inputs have no value at all? > Do the bees get all the credit for every penny of crop value? > Of course not. OTOH, suppose my bees are responsible for pollination for 60% of the value of a crop of cucumbers (pick the percentage of your choice!). The plain fact is that if the farmer loses what my bees contribute, he simply will not grow cucumbers. They have dropped well below the profit margin. And we've seen a lot of farmers quit this crop, concentrating the cucumber production into large farms where pollination is understood and better managed. So, while we cannot credit ALL the crop's value to the bees in your sense, there is another sense in which that crop would not exist without the bees. As you also point out, the loss of value is not simply the loss of QUANTITY of the crop, but also of the QUALITY of the crop without the bees. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) In-Reply-To: <200204051603.g35EgsJE006884@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:44 AM 4/5/02 -0500, you wrote: > So, while we cannot credit ALL the crop's value to the bees in your >sense, there is another sense in which that crop would not exist without the >bees. I think you hit upon a key point. We are talking about several different concepts of what 'value' means. Are we talking about: - Strictly the value or work the bees do. The crop price minus labor, land, and other costs = value of the bees. - The contribution in total crop value that can be attributed directly by bee pollination, which would not occur without the bees, or would be performed by hand or other expensive method. - The total value of the crop produced that would not have been produced if bees were not present (including those crops that would simply not be grown because of low yields). I think a fair statement might be that so many billion dollars of crops were produced because of the bees and that many of those crops would simply not be produced without them. That's not to say the bees are worth the sum total of the crops, but rather bees contribution enables billions of dollars of crops to be produced that would not otherwise be produced. A hive obviously does not have a direct value of $3000, but it certainly could have contributed a critical component allowing $3000 or more worth of crops to be produced. I think the terms and goals need to be better defined before one can begin determining if the data collection/estimation methods were appropriate or accurate enough. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:09:57 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Spraying Fine sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, I know that the Open Mesh Floor is on all year, but what are the criteria which you will use to decide on: spraying sugar, FGMO Ipereat Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" > I am determined to give IPM fair wind and will be using this year: > > Open Mesh Floors > Spraying fine sugar > Ipereat (an Italian IPM treatment) > Drone Brood removal. > FGMO > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:28:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doug & Dawn Subject: propolizing vent holes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the idea of bees opening and closing upper ventilation holes with propolis as needed. I imagine the number of holes in the box would depend on your climate more holes in hot or humid climate than cold or dry climates. How large a hole can a bee propolize closed? Would you drill the holes on all sides of a hive box so bees could take advantage of predominant winds by opening and closing holes to windward or lee side of hive? Since bees would propolize holes open or closed when ventilation is not needed or not needed would it be a good idea to have these "vent" holes available in all boxes so the bees could open and close holes from the bottom-most to the top-most box? Would it be better to have a horizontal row of holes all at the top of the box, or more than one horizontal row with one in the middle and/or bottom as well? Or vertical holes going up and down near the corners to avoid any draft on central brood section? How would the holes and their location affect the structural integrity of the box. Doug from Bandon, OR ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: VALUE OF HONEYBEES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an industry we must quantify the value of honeybees otherwise it is handwaving. Honey is good, raw honey is better, local honey is good for your allergies, honeybees are valuable, and the sun circles the earth are all intuitive but possible all are wrong. One of the assertions has been proved wrong. Until this industry can quantify its value we will increasingly become marginalized and become a delight for the fringe few that go to health food stores. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: self-opening and self-closing vent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have thought in the past about whether the fabric "Gortex", which has perforations large enough to allow water vapor to escape, but too small for liquid water to enter, would be a good winter venting material for hives, as it would also assist the bees in maintaining cluster temperature by reducing overall airflow, but might alleviate the condensation problem. I was given to understand that Gortex is not sold directly to the public, but only to manufacturers of finished goods. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:24:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: frame excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I need to make up a large number of queen excluding cages to restrict queens to lay on a single frame. I searched around and could find no plans online. Does anyone have an easy design? Adony ..................................................... Adony Melathopoulos Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada #1 Research Road Box 29 Beaverlodge, AB T0H 0C0 CANADA T: +1 780 354 5130 F: +1 780 354 8122 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:37:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So, while we cannot credit ALL the crop's value to the bees in your > >sense, there is another sense in which that crop would not exist without the > >bees. As with many of these simplifications, I get lost if I try to contemplate the whole picture. How many miles do bees fly to get a tablespoon of honey? Do bees use tablespoons? Do they fly in kilometres? Do all bees gather exactly the same amount of honey? Would we starve if the bees went on strike? as a wise friend told me once, not all questions that can be asked using sensible-sounding English can -- or even should -- be given an answer. Nonetheless these apparently shallow and unsupportable pronouncements do serve to make difficult subjects somewhat approachable for children and others with no experience in the matter, and provide a starting point for learning more. If we understand that, then we can have some fun and learn something about the subject, even if we never get anywhere close to a definitive answer. In the case of trying to ascribe a value to the work bees do pollinating, many assumptions must be stated, and they seldom are revealed fully. No one can predict the alternatives. Consequently results of such speculation often appear very inflated or self-serving and can be countered with other stats that disprove them, ridicule them or even prove the opposite -- due to using other hidden assumptions or placing different weights on factors used in calculations. Differences in assumptions will necessarily result in wide variations in projections of value. Are we considering the gross value of all crops pollinated without considering possible substitutes that would appear in the absence of pollination, and the possible value of alternate crops currently displaced due to the increased competitiveness of the pollinated crop? Are we considering how pollination drives down the price of food commodities by increasing production, thus destroying value? Are we considering the gross contribution to the economy without considering both current and possible deferred direct and indirect costs? Are we including the downstream benefits of the pollination and the multiplier effect of spending? Are we considering the damage to our work ethic by providing food too cheaply? Are we speaking comparatively or are we speaking absolutely? Are we considering marginal value added or the entire value of crops? Net increase in value or gross increase in value? Obviously, if we were to state all the considerations in what we say, we would not be able to say anything. I consider these types of pronouncements as gambits to start people thinking, but anyone who seriously believes these types of conversational openers should email me -- I have a nice bridge for sale on eBay. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: propolizing vent holes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How large a hole can a bee propolize closed?... > Since bees would propolize holes open or closed > when ventilation is not needed or not needed > would it be a good idea to have these "vent" holes available in all boxes... Some of us do, and not intentionally. Again we are getting to discussion where we are trying to generalize bee behaviour. There are so many variables. Some bees propolise very liberally and often, others don't propolise at all. Some bees are 'smart' in some tests, others are 'stupid' in the same situation. I suspect that there are no universal answers and my experience says to me that this won't work for me, but might work for others somewhere. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:30:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: frame excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > This message was originally submitted by > keithb.forsyth@HWCN.ORG to the BEE-L > list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited > to remove quotes of previously posted material. > ----------------- Original message (ID=17267D71) (56 lines) > From: "Keith B. Forsyth" > To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee > Biology" > References: <200204051841.g35DWPdg004897@listserv.albany.edu> > Subject: Re: frame excluders > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:21:01 -0500 > > Hi: > I have seen pieces of queen excluder mounted in standard hive > bodies so the frame or frames could be placed between the two > pieces of excluder. See > Laidlaw and Page (1997) Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding pgs 58-59. > You may wish to contact Paul Kelly at the U of Guelph, > pgkelly@evb.uoguelph.ca . He may have some ideas. > Keith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: self-opening and self-closing vent In-Reply-To: <200204051839.g35IS8Gw013615@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:27 PM 4/5/02 -0500, you wrote: >I was given to understand that Gortex is not sold directly to the public, >but only to manufacturers >of finished goods. How about using one of the various house wraps on the market such as Tyvek. They supposedly do about the same thing. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:38:43 -0500 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill farm Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, while we cannot credit ALL the crop's > value to the bees in your sense, there is > another sense in which that crop would > not exist without the bees. Hi all Assuming a perfect free market where supply equals demand the value of pollination is the amount paid for the service. If the beekeeper is paid $50 per hive then that is exactly the value of pollination to the crop grower. Wade (Wondering if we live in a perfect free market) -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:08:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: self-opening and self-closing vent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strange that you should mention Tyvek. I've just made 20 half boxes divided into 3 for use as mating nucs and was looking for a material for "inner covers". In California we used burlap but in Quebec the weather is often wetter so l looked around for another material and l saw a roll of Tyvek! The only problem that l can forsee is it might create some static? I'll know at the end of the mating season. Here we often use the thermofoil as inner covers in the spring and it works really well. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Arheit" How about using one of the various house wraps on the market such as Tyvek. They supposedly do about the same thing. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: frame excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adony Melathopoulos wrote: > I need to make up a large number of queen excluding cages to restrict queens to lay on a single frame. My breeder queens are confined to 3 combs, but a breeder hive could be made to keep the queen on 1. Start with a good hive body. Cut a 1/4" rabbet, 3/8" deep, from the top edge to the bottom edge, front and back. A trimmed queen excluder slides into this rabbet.These rabbets should be far enough from the sidewall to allow 1 (or 3) frame to fit in the space created. A bottom board is created so the excluder will extend from the top edge of the box, to the bottom board. An entrance block is used so that the entrance is on the queenless side only. A grain bag is used for the inner cover. It seals the queen in better than a wooden inner cover. When breeding is done for the year, transfer combs into standard equipment. The breeder queen and her colony can be overwintered in 2 hive bodies if they build up well enough, or 1 hive body over the inner cover of a strong hive. Mike > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:05:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: propolizing vent holes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I should clarify, that I am not recommending the adoption of holes in brood boxes or supers. The vents that I originally referred to were of perforated metal with holes of about 3 mm diameter (1/8") and were part of a rigid top structure in a glass sided, full colony observation hive. The metal was propolised on it's surface and the holes were plugged with what apeared to be the same material... I had wondered if pollen had been used to render the plugs porous so that the knew where to find then if they wanted to unblock then. > How large a hole can a bee propolize closed?... I think there is a natural reaction to stuff propolis in any crack that they can get a tongue into, but not a head. Holes larger than this can be bridged, but I think a different mechanism is at work. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Drutchas Subject: value MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have always wondered what happened in France when nearly all the hives = where wiped out by the varroa mites. Was there a significant decrease in = agricultural output? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: THE VALUE OF ONE HIVE TO OUR ECONOMY(please comment on) "Hi all Assuming a perfect free market where supply equals demand the value of pollination is the amount paid for the service. If the beekeeper is paid $50 per hive then that is exactly the value of pollination to the crop grower." And if I pay my accountant 400 dollars and he saves me 4000.00? Great topic, and good mental workout. Thanks to all Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:58:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: European Beekeeping - interesting report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Relating to bee colony losses in France As in most countries where the mite appeared there was a period of loss, due to beekeepers being unaware, inexperienced in regard to this invasion. The losses as far as I am aware could never be described in the manner as described by Rick Drutchas. But the present state of Beekeeping in the E.U. is now under review. The situation is being considered as one of grave crisis - due to many reasons. >From a recent Commission for Agriculture and Rural Development report, several interesting comments/propositions may be pointed out: 06/11/2001 "Report on the report of the Commission on the application of rule(CE)n°1221/97 of the Council containing general application rules for actions targeting improvement in production and commercialization of honey." Reporter:Astrid Lulling (My translation from French language!) 1.Considering the cries of alarm from the European Apicultural sector which is confronting more and more structural problems. The latter causing the alarming disappearance of beekeepers and compromising the creation and renewing of beekeeping businesses, indispensable from the point of view of social as well as environmental for the assurance of cultivated and wild plants throughout the E.U. 2.Considering that the Commission appears to be unable to measure the consequences resulting from this immediate danger on the equilibrium of the European ecosystem 3.National centres for improvement in statistics. The softening in budgetary methods established with regulation 704/2001, if not itself a bad thing, risks to reinforce the differences in interpretation by member states as well as remove the only statistical data available based on annex II of rule 1221/97..........it appears indispensable to improve and standardise the national statistical tools viewing price to producers, calculation of production costs, as well as the ability to follow national stock trends....... On this basis, it is proposed to create national centres of analysis with the participation of producer organisations. 4.Considering the very grave damage to bee populations in several member states by systemic insecticides with very long persistence used in seed coating of important crops have caused massive intoxication of colonies. 5. Considering that there is established effect that from use of these treatment products for important crops contaminating plants and soil and provoke disfunctionment in bees, with losses of stocks upto 60% in honey crops. The above is followed by detailed propositions. Plus, studies by French beekeepers (with very limited resources, but much organisation): have calculated in various regions honey harvest losses due to the "presumed" presence of the particular insecticides. Direct losses from lower pollination rates have not been investigated (as far as I know). The organisation that regulates the production of oil producing crops (CETIOM) were (are!) worried regarding the potential losses in quality/quantity of final seed harvest. This maybe then viewed by the particular agricultural sectors in the following manner: Pollination dependence of plants via. honey bees is a weak link in the production system. Via. plant breeding methods, it would be better in the long term to market seed that is self fertile and results in dependable quality crop. Cut out bees, or at least limit to seed production areas. Also, open cross pollination may be considered as a "polluting" mechanism. In such circumstances, bees are considered as pests and as such must be "controlled". Our bees are not valued in the same manner by all. Citrus producers in certain areas of Spain have complained that the presence of bees has devalued their production of seedless fruit - due to pollination by bees. I am sorry that this mail moves from topic to topic, but it indicates some of the complicated relationships that pressurise beekeeping in the modern world. What damages the Beekeeper's cause more than any other, is the inability to work together long term, either on specific topics or in general direction. Divide the opposition and win. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: food grade feeder pails? Hello, I have a question I hope someone on this list can answer. Do you think that feeder pails have to be food grade? This is why I am asking. Beaver Lumber was bought by Home Hardware, consequently any of the pails that they had made to put drywall putty in no longer have the right logo on them, and one of the stores south of us is selling them very cheap. Food grade buckets normally have a 1 or a 2 in a triangle, these have a five. I cannot find a page online explaining what all the grades mean. THe buckets are brand new by the way. Please advise ASAP. Thanks, Carmenie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:35:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Selecting breeding stock Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On behalf of on of the members of the Wisconsin Beekeepers, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wibeekeepers/ , I would like to post the following question... Does any one a have system they use to do an overall evaluation of a hive? This year I want to start raising queens for requeening my hives and I am looking for a comprehensive system that evaluates all the charecterisics of a hive so that I can raise queens from only the best hives. I would also use this to evaluate the quality of the queens that I purchase from queen breeders. If anyone is already doing this and would like to share the results of any of the queen breeders they have been testing I would appreciate it. Thanks! On behalf of Tom - John ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:44:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JOHN BACHMAN Subject: Unused winter stores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I winter my bees in three deep boxes and I am generous with winter stores. As a result, the bees do not use all of this honey. Some of the honey may be a few years old. Should old honey be moved to a box above the inner cover to allow it to be "robbed" out and re-manufactured into fresh honey? I'm worried that granulation and fermentation may occur. Thank you John Bachman Wausau, WI ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Inner covers for mating nucs Like Peter Keating, for many years I used burlap to go over the top of multiple nucs in the same box. then burlap became too expensive. Kirk Webster, a very successful queen breeder in Northern Vermont, then suggested using plastic feed sacks. To my surprise, they are actually superior to burlap. Sooner or later the bees will chew through the burlap; they will not chew through the plastic. Like burlap, they quickly adjust to the contours of the frames, preventing bees from one nuc traveling to another. Also like burlap, they can be easily peeled back to inspect frames. If you get lucky, you can get them used for free. Unlucky, you pay about $,50 each, brand new. Get the 100 pound size if you can as they fit much better than the 80 lb. size. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:54:09 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Unused winter stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JOHN BACHMAN wrote: > > As a result, the bees do not use all of this honey. Some of the honey may be > a few years old. Should old honey be moved to a box above the inner cover to > allow it to be "robbed" out and re-manufactured into fresh honey? Moving it above the inner cover won't work. Often the queen will go up and lay in the combs. A better plan is to place the crystalized honey on the bottom board. The bees will clean out whatever honey is there. Scratching the cappings will speed the process. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Selecting breeding stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JOHN BACHMAN wrote: Does any one a have system they use to do an overall evaluation of a hive? First you should determine which traits you think important to select for. Start small. You can't select for every trait under the sun. I keep records on honey production, wintering ability, disease resistance, temper. These records should be gleaned over a number of years. Without doing so will increase the guesswork involved. Honey production is self explanatory. I determine wintering ability when I reverse on the dandelion flow. I count the number of frames of brood, and write that number on the back of the hive. That number becomes a good reference point when examining the colony for the rest of the year. It also is an indicator for Tracheal mite resistance. For disease resistance, I mostly look for chalkbrood. Any at all eliminates that colony. I work without gloves, and often veil. Mean hives are quickly identified. Once a group of queens have been selected for these traits, you can look at others within that group. These could include cleanliness, pollen gathering, calmness on the combs, etc. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: food grade feeder pails? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carmenie Stemmler wrote: > I have a question I hope someone on this list can answer. Do you think > that feeder pails have to be food grade? Food grade no, clean yes. >