From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:45:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F9D4908D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXp010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0204C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 112483 Lines: 2391 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Male sterile gene One of the reasons we have increased our productivity in Agriculture in the last century is finding a male sterile gene in grain crops. To get hybrid vigor, the host plant can have a male sterile gene bred into it, therefore it can't pollenate itself. The pollen of necessity comes from a donor which is planted next to the seed producer. The production of cheap hybred seed is made tremendously easier. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a queen bred with drones which could fertilize a worker egg, but wouldn't hatch drones? Any research out there? Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and All, Tom wrote: > I am presently working on some beekeeping lectures, and am attempting to > draw together information on the analysis of infestation by varroa by > counting the mites which fall to the sticky board through natural causes, > and using tables to determine if the treatment threshold is reached. Even those which thought they had the numbers all could use for varroa threshold are reconsidering. I used Dr. Marion Ellis findings for several years but at the Tri State meeting he said the threshold issue is more complicated than he originally thought. I agree with Marion completely. When you first get varroa as in your case Tom there is one problem which can not be overcome even with a strip with a 98% control. Reinfestation through robbing untreated hives. Many U.S. beekeepers treated with Apistan three times a year at the start. Others were using one strip to save money and only once a year. Both the above methods are flawed although those treating three times a year did not lose hives to reinfestation. Tom wrote: > Steve Martin, who issued a Varroa Calculator in the UK, has issued the > following table I have still got my varroa calculator but found it very unreliable. Sadly I know Steve spent many hours working on it. I also found the DeWitt sticky board unreliable when doing an average and not counting all squares. Tom wrote: > Thus if a daily mite fall of 100 mites were counted in June the estimate of > the total mites would be in the region of 3000. Until a way is found to calculate the amount of varroa in brood cells I find the above method crude. I will however continue to use the method until a better method comes along. In my area a hive with a natural mite fall in June of 100 would be dead by end of August or infested so bad the hive could not be saved. 100 mites would be at least 3000 mites and the figure could be as high as 6000 in my opinion. There is no research so all you hear is mostly theory. Tom wrote: > The problem with which I need help is as follows: > > Investigations carried out in the UK showed, that if there are more than > 2500 mites in the colony that immediate treatment is required. In my opinion the hive needs treatment but researchers in Georgia put the threshold higher. Others put the threshold much lower. Tom wrote: But I have data from the Swiss Bee Research to say that if more than 30 mites fall per > day that the colony is heading for trouble. Anytime you get 30 mites in 24 hours you have got a heavy varroa load which is bound to climb when bees are at one of their peak brood rearing times in most of the world.. This would mean that if the > above table be used that 900 mites would be the threshold in June. All depends on the amount of varroa in brood cells, number of frames of brood and population of the hive. Our hives are getting close to 60,000 population on 15 frames of brood in June. 900 mites would not be a serious problem in such a hive. A hive with 4 or 5 frames of brood and say 30,000 bees might need treatment. The more you look at threshold the more puzzeled you become. Tom wrote: > It would appear essential that if non acaricide treatments are used that > some reliable data must be available to determine if the colony is headed > for the threshold to find out if the treatments are working. It would also > seem important to know this data, to establish if an acaricide treatment is > now dealing with resistant mites. You have got a clear picture of the problem confronting us concerning varroa threshold. I wish I had better answers for you. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:20:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Male sterile gene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & all > Wouldn't it be awesome to have a queen bred with drones which could > fertilize a worker egg, but wouldn't hatch drones? Disasterous is the word I would use... Such colonies would be demoralised and are unlikely to produce much honey. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:50:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Mite thresholds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Bob and All I am most grateful to Bob Harrison for the very full replies given to my post. I suppose that even approximate answers are better than no answers at all, as they at least give us a ball park to work with. What I am at a loss to understand is how Danish and other European beekeepers have managed to handle varroa from Day 1 without using acaracides to any extent? They obviously had the problem of reinfestation which as Bob correctly pointed out is the major source of variables in the initial stages of varroa. How did they cope with it? Are there any European beekeepers on the List who managed varroa without acaricides and lived through the reinfestation period? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:46:53 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Mite thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Part of the trouble with determining levels for treatment is the influence of the various viruses which vector with Varroa destructor. Norman Carreck stated, in last years lectures at Gormanstown, that their experience was that some colonies with low levels of infestation died; whilst others with heavy infestation survived. Further discussion at Gormanstown ( I think the previous year stated that a natural mite drop of more than 10 per day would warrant immediate treatment. The calculator gives only a rough idea of population and development and cannot be taken as gospel. It would give you an idea as to whether you could wait until the crop is removed or not before treatment. > Investigations carried out in the UK showed, that if there are more than > 2500 mites in the colony that immediate treatment is required. But I have > data from the Swiss Bee Research to say that if more than 30 mites fall per > day that the colony is heading for trouble. This would mean that if the > above table be used that 900 mites would be the threshold in June. Monitoring the daily mite drop each week/ month would determine whether mite counts were increasing or not. Unless you are using Queen trapping I would expect with most of the physical methods that mite counts are going to increase. They are a holding operation to increase the interval between chemical (whether hard or soft) treatments. > It would appear essential that if non acaricide treatments are used that > some reliable data must be available to determine if the colony is headed > for the threshold to find out if the treatments are working. Ruary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In looking for an article in a pile of bee magazines, I came across Bob Horr’s article entitled: “ ‘The Long Hive’—A Back-saver Design” in the Janurary 2000 issue of the American Bee Journal. The hive is single story and four feet wide. It may be of interest to those who find standard Langstroth hives too heavy. This hive is somewhat different than the Golz- Beute hive mentioned a few weeks back. Standard Langstroth frames are used, and the hive runs sideways instead of front-to-rear. Horr provides step by step instructions for anyone interested in a do-it-yourself project. Back issues of the magazine are available from Dadant. I think they charge $2.00 U.S. plus postage and will invoice after mailing. Dadant can be reached at dadant@dadant.com Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:53:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Use Honey from a Deadout hive?? I am .... concerned .. about using the honey from a colony that died this winter. The hive consist(ed) of two deeps, a medium super and a baggie feeder on top. They had just started drawing out the super. The bottom deep has some pollen covered with greenish-gray mold and 6 or 7 sealed supercedure cells. Last summer's grease patty is gone. The upper deep box is chock-full of honey, which I assume is mostly stored syrup from sept/october feedings. Throughout the 6 middle frames about 20 cells contain a bee who died nose-in(licking the bottom of the cell?). Between frames 6 and 7 is a tiny clump of dead bees - I would guess no more than 300 total - all dry as a bone. This hive is 15 miles from Seattle - cool, not cold, but wet all winter. It would be great to start my new packages with the honey and I assume after the colonies build-up some they would clean up the pollen frames as well. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:17:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mite thresholds Tom The problem is not the mites per se, it is the viruses for which they act as vectors. Thus a colony can tolerate very high levels of mites if viruses are absent, but will have severe problems with lower numbers of mites where viruses are present; the important virus here is Deformed Wing Virus (DWV). Since we (your average beekeeper!) have no way of monitoring viruses, we have to assume that they are present and therefore act to keep varroa numbers as low as possible. 2500 may be a threshold where viruses are present, whereas 10,000 may be tolerated where they are absent. I think that this explains some of the apparent inconsistencies in the recommendations. See my report on the Central Association Weekend in: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/February2002.htm Peter Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" Sent: 14 April 2002 12:16 Subject: Mite thresholds > Investigations carried out in the UK showed, that if there are more than > 2500 mites in the colony that immediate treatment is required. But I have > data from the Swiss Bee Research to say that if more than 30 mites fall > per day that the colony is heading for trouble > Perhaps this difference is explained by differences in climate between the > UK and Switzerland or perhaps there is some other explanation, eg both > figures are incorrect. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mick bozard Subject: Small Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! Comments: To: cdvs@clemson.edu, lhopkin8@bellsouth.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have been making splits over the weekend of honeybees and have noticed some of the colonies are full of bees and SHB. There was no brood or eggs, no visible queen but signs of hatched queen cells. Everyone of the colonies that was like this (full of bees but no brood,eggs, or visible queen) had hundreds of SHB. One actually had larvae started in the honey frames. Yes a gooie mess was starting to form. I first thought the bees were robbing but then relized they were working bringing in pollen and nectar. Hmmmmmmmmmm i thought ?! These 3 colonies are sure to fail. It actually has me a little baffled. I later thought maybe i missed the queen, maybe she is virgin and going on her mating flights. We have had some recent rains and maybe this has delayed her flying. Then i got thinking, these three hives are on a piece of property by themselves, no others i have looked at are like these (full of bees but no brood,eggs, or visible queen). I then moved to another small yard 3 miles away, BOY OH BOY, did i have some beauties ! Little ones, BIG ones, medium size ones, SHB of all sizes just right for SELLING !!! These colonies were filled, I MEAN FILLLLLED with SHB, BUT the colonies appeared to be fine. Abundance of honey, eggs, brood, and bees. Go figure ??? I am not incline to treat the internal hive but i did spray the ground around the colonies to kill the SHB larvae. I checked all my other yards and i have some SHB but not really many. I haven't treated for SHB or mites in over two years, trying to raise SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST bees. No Flames please ! I just think the bees can take care of themselves given enough time, just my two cents. Soooooooooo anyone like to make an offer on my Bumper Crop of SHB ?! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and All, > I suppose that even approximate answers are better than no answers at all, > as they at least give us a ball park to work with. Beekeeping is not *rocket science* although there are a few on the list which might argue the point. Once you move past the first wave of varroa infestation the problem is simply to keep high numbers down. I would argue with many researchers (and have done so) that hives with what they consider not yet needing treatment will simply not produce like a hive with a very low level infestation. As Ruary pointed out viruses always come with high infestations and their damage is not completely understood yet. > What I am at a loss to understand is how Danish and other European > beekeepers have managed to handle varroa from Day 1 without using acaracides to any extent? Not wanting to answer for the Danish and others I will say that varroa can be held in check by many simple beekeeping methods. Shaking down the bees on new foundation greatly reduces varroa load if done at the correct time. Problem is *NONE* of the so far proposed IPM methods can be applied with success on a large scale without a *huge* amount of labor involved. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Loss of the old honey program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob and Everyone, Bob wrote in part: "Sadly I agree with Dr. Shilling (ABF convention 2002) that protectionism will not work in the long run . Increasing productivity by 17 times seems out of reach also. Dr. Shilling used the example that the U.S. farmer is = 17 times as productive now while over the same time period the U.S. beekeeper still has the same honey production average per hive (in some states less) as a 100 years ago." Yes Dr Schilling's talk gives one reason to do some serious thinking. = Much of the increase in productivity in agriculture is best expressed in = terms of yield per acre. In beekeeping this would be yield per colony not = total production of the outfit. The question is how can we increase yield = per colony without increasing costs? Some difficult issues to struggle = with. In agriculture it is the so called green revolution that continues = to push yield per acre upward despite all predictions to the contrary. = There are conflicting currents in beekeeping with pollination rental you = are paid so much per colony while for honey production increased management= of colonies usually leads to increased production per colony. So for = pollination you need to maximize the number of productive colonies in the = outfit but for honey production you may well be better off running fewer = colonies with more intensive management. Most of the colony maintenance = costs are on a per colony basis ( mite treatments, feed, etc. ) so in = spite of the conflicting interests between pollination and honey production= most large commercial outfits that depend on both are pulled in two = different directions at once. We do need to come up with ways to both increase per colony productivity ( = in terms of honey production etc ) and reduce the labor involved in = harvesting and managing those colonies. From my view one of the critical = issues is how can we maintain healthy disease free colonies with less = labor ( inspections of the brood )? How can we more efficiently monitor = colonies for disease and deal with disease and pest problems early enough = to mitigate their impact on production per colony? FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:55:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join and submit articles for consideration. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. Failure to meet guidelines will result in rejection of your article. IN PARTICULAR, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES OR ANY PREVIOUS HEADERS WHEN REPLYING. CONTRIBUTIONS INCLUDING QUOTES THAT ARE NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO UNDERSTANDING WILL USUALLY BE REJECTED *WITHOUT NOTICE* FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. 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CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: honey production and pollination questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Blane and All, Blane raises some excellent points. I guess I will try and address his points. I should be in bed as I was up all night moving bees into Apples but slept for two hours when I got home and am wide awake. Another night of moving bees tonight. Blane wrote: The question is how can we increase yield per colony without increasing costs? Many conditions need to be present for many honey plants to produce nectar. Soybeans for instance. Commercial fishing and commercial beekeeping have got many things in common. I have seen truck loads of bees moved in on a floral source only to come back in a few weeks to find the bees starving. In our area we get a above normal honey crop once every four years. We also get a below normal honey crop at least as often. I have seen fields white from Dutch Clover and not a bee working the blossoms. A few years back we were feeding bees to keep bees from starving while record honey crops were happening 200 miles to the east. We kept waiting for our honey flow to start. Finnally we got enough of a crop to stop feeding bees. Blana wrote: so in spite of the conflicting interests between pollination and honey production > most large commercial outfits that depend on both are pulled in two = > different directions at once. I really hope my partner reads this post (lurker he is). We have had serious dispute over pollination. I am not using my bees this year for reasons Blane stated. Loss of honey crop because of gearing up for pollination which throws off getting ready for our main honey flow is my reason. My partner can not believe I passed up pollination money to gamble on a honey crop. > We do need to come up with ways to both increase per colony productivity > in terms of honey production etc ) I have had hives overflowing with bees but when the plants do not cooperate all you get for your efforts is swarming. Blane wrote: and reduce the labor involved in harvesting and managing those colonies. One way to reduce costs: My partner hired a new employee last week. He lasted two days. So now I have to take the new hires place without pay. Things which went wrong last night : forklift battery went dead. Also when we went out to leave the negative clip from the battery charger had blown off the post with the high winds. Luckily the forklift worked ok. The truck shop had checked the truck over the day before but after the truck was loaded the truck had no brake lights. Fixed those. On the way home the filters plugged up on the engine. The filters had been changed a couple days before. We cleaned the filters on a off ramp. We had a small can of diesel fuel and tools in case. Fixed those . Went by the truck shop and mechanic said fuel problem caused by a tank of bad fuel. Picked up two extra filters so we can change if needed over the next couple nights. Problem solved till tonight. Thankful my imunity to bee stings is still working. Zero swelling to report. Slept only two hours and not sleepy. Problem not solved yet. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:17:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mick and All, The reason many beekeepers are seeing many small hive beetles this year over the last two is simple. The drought of the last two years has reduced the shb problem in areas of the south east. Now that wet weather is back those in areas of shb getting rain are in for infestation problems. I do not know the reason for the higher infestation rate with wet weather but all apiary inspectors in shb areas reported less shb during the drought. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:04:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Loss of the old honey program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The biggest problem the US beekeeper faces, other than competition from producers in centralized economies with no cost structure and a huge need for US currency (like China) is the excessively strong US dollar. The US dollar's strength, caused by political factors -- the US is currently the world's only superpower -- is killing other US producers as well. Look at steel. Look at any labour intensive, resource-based industry. > ...In beekeeping this would be yield per colony not total production of the outfit. The question is how can we increase yield per colony without increasing costs? Emphasizing yield -- whether per hive or per operation -- rather than overall management, is a dangerous distraction. Chasing big yields has killed more agricultural producers -- particularly young 'educated' ones -- than any other trap. The survivors in agriculture are -- oftener than not -- those who are conservative in their approach, conserve their capital, and seek smaller but more certain returns and who avoid large outlays of money for uncertain returns. Consistent financial returns, not the largest yield, is the crucial goal. Good risk analysis, good strategy, and hedging of bets are the cardinal characteristics of those who survive. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:01:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, There is no specific answer, because the variables are so great, e. g., bees in the desert area of Arizona or the wooded area of Skyline Drive, VA. However, normally bees leave the parent hive and go only 100 feet or so to form a swarm that might stay there 2-3 hours or maybe 2-3 days until it departs for the new homesite it has selected. That new homesite is usually less than a mile from the parent colony, but it can be as far as 3 miles away. I want to impress upon you that this is a very generalized answer. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:16:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old wives tale. One just can't use figures like that. Are you talking about a population of 20,000 bees, or 50,000? Are there 4 frames of brood or 12 frames of brood. Is the nectar flow minor or major? If the normal nectar flow in your area begins about April 15th, supers should be in place BEFORE that date. The "old timers" used to put one super in place, add a second super when the first was near full, and likewise for the 3rd super, etc.; and lost swarm after swarm. Scientific research during the past 20 years has clearly shown the best supering is to put many supers on ALL AT THE SAME TIME (read page 618 in the 1992 Edition of the Hive and Honey Bee). Bees do not make any honey with supers sitting in your garage or basement. Put the supers on a colony BEFORE the start of a nectar flow! I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:06:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: all Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are going to raise beetles cheap you might want to remove honey and extract it that day. The increase of bees on the brood box will give you more to herd the beetles up. 1/6 screen will let the beetles go thur without letting the bees. Sticky boards that are spaced apart with pollin to attract the beetles will trap them. This works best on the top of the hives. Bottomless hives will let the trash get to the ground which you have already sprayed. I used a pan with water in it and counted the floaters. Helpful hints glue all corners, dip lids in coppertox, extract honey as soon as possible, don't mess with brood box as it will set the beetles to laying. Shake out bees from effected hives that are lost and 1/6 screen floor with sticky board and pollen to remove any beetles. Nuc them with enough bees to cover both sides of frames and outer edge frames must not be drawn. Spray cover the outside frames with sugar water to feed. Put a new queen or queen cell in nuc. Hopefully nucs will be enough to cover the loses of hives. I am sure of one thing a hammer will get the beetles and you may feel better but the hive will be destoried. We need a portable beetle vaccum that is screened to save the bees but get the beetles inside it. I used one to collect the beetles at home but not able to get it to the sites I have bees now. City code enforcement won't let me have bees at home anymore. Never had more that 3 hives at home anyhow. Michael Housel Orlandobee Beetle music is dancin not listening music. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:31:53 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Loss of the old honey program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two issues were brought up - "productivity" and "currency". The funny thing is that the "productivity" cited is being measured only in currency, and the "currency" cited is doing nothing more than following the productivity. But the overall effect is much less humorous than one might think. PRODUCTIVITY > Dr. Shilling used the example that the U.S. farmer is 17 times as > productive now while over the same time period the U.S. beekeeper > still has the same honey production average per hive (in some states > less) as a 100 years ago. Dr. Shilling did not explain the primary reasons for the "productivity gain". The majority of the "gain" was solely due to the massive increase of "inputs", in the form of fossil fuels to run machines, chemical fertilizers and pesticides, and enough water to drain entire rivers dry. All these "enhancements" required a transition to extensive monocultures, which allowed formerly obscure pests to become significant threats, thus forcing the use of ever-more toxic pesticides, specialized hybridized crops, transgenic plants, and so on. So while "productivity" was higher, the actual produce being produced was changed for the convenience of the process, and became something completely different. Why do you think the term "Frankenfood" has crept into the language? Beekeepers certainly could also increase "productivity" by increasing inputs. The most direct route would be simply feeding their hives year-round with beet sugar, cane sugar, HFCS, or other replacement for nectar that is cheaper than honey. While the resulting crop would only be "honey" in the narrowest sense, check out the spherical objects one finds in the produce section of the supermarket claimed to be "tomatoes", and compare the taste to nearly any tomato you care to grow in a pot on your windowsill to find out what sacrifices have been made by other food producers on the altar of "productivity". One minor "detail" about monocultures was a body-blow to beekeeping. The elimination of most all vegetation other than the "desired crop" meant that countless acres that supported excellent honey harvests years ago now provide no opportunity for honeybees, and worse, no habitat for natural predators that traditionally kept pest populations low. (Of course, monocultures of this sort also created a demand for truckloads of imported pollination hives, which should have been a big clue that something very basic was wrong with the entire approach.) One impact of increased pesticide use was the appearance of the phrase "pesticide kill" in the vocabulary of beekeepers. The most recent variation on this theme is the current "concerns" being expressed over Imidacloprid. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0203a&L=bee-l&D=0&P=7295 While it is strictly true that more food is produced per acre as a result of all the above, the impact of these activities, while a subject of ongoing debate, is clearly not "positive", for beekeeping, or for the environment as a whole. The only debate is about the amount of negative impact, and how soon the negative impact will render the land useless for agriculture of any sort. In some specific cases, the impact of intensive agriculture, using the most modern techniques, has resulted in clear and compelling short-term impact that can only be described as disastrous. A typical example is Spain's expansion of monoculture olive plantations and extensive use of greenhouses in Andalusia to grow "truck garden" vegetables, which is quickly turning the area into a desert. When I last visited Spain in the 1970s, that exact area was a finalist in my personal list of "Edens". Now, it looks more like a setting for a Mel Gibson "Mad Max" movie. http://www.iht.com/articles/53459.html In short, they are using more water than the aquifer can provide, and drawing down the water table, which allows seawater to enter the aquifer. Once the water table is invaded by seawater, one gets high-salinity soil, which means nothing will grow. This is a problem that, if unchecked, may not be "fixable" for several generations, if ever. Once one understands the techniques used to achieve the "productivity" statistics, one can see that many of the techniques used are nothing more than cheap card tricks that may look good on next quarter's financial report to stockholders, but look very bad from the point of view of anyone who might want to farm or eat a few decades from now. The astute beekeeper might ask about the amazing secrets of productivity used by the counties that export large quantities of honey. Have they increased yield per hive? Have they discovered labor-saving techniques? It seems that the only "advantage" these countries have is low-cost labor and a willingness to play fast and loose with the rules of the game to the point of having entire crops rejected as "contaminated". http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0203D&L=bee-l&P=R431&D=0&m=38471 CURRENCY > The US dollar's strength, caused by political factors -- the US is currently > the world's only superpower... Currency is the ultimate fungible commodity - trading never stops, and the foreign exchange markets are the closest to a "perfect market" of any commodity market. The US Dollar is not "strong" against nearly all other currencies due to political factors, it is "strong" because capital flows towards the best overall investments. http://www.economist.co.uk/agenda/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1056789 Like it or not, currencies are worth exactly what one can get for them on the various FOREX exchanges, and not a Ruble more or less. If anything, the lack of ability of other countries to address their own internal economic problems has kept the dollar "strong", despite constant US attempts to "make the dollar weaker", and hence, make US export goods less "expensive". The US greenback remains the hardest currency on the planet for reasons that are valid to every currency trader on the planet, and the only true "superpower" seems to be the currency trading markets themselves. Even the US cannot seem to influence the markets. Perhaps the term "the world's only superpower" is an appropriate one for the US, but only in the economic sense, which brings us full circle back to "productivity". jim (who never uses the title "Dr.", in deference to Dr. Seuss) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:53:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mite thresholds Tom I have only used thymol crystals as my varroa treatment, together with some oxalic acid in 1998, 1999 and 2000 (dripped rather than sprayed - for safety reasons) since varroa arrived here in 1997. Last winter was our best ever, losing only 3 colonies out of 78 (2 of these to drone laying queens). See: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm Peter Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" To: Sent: 15 April 2002 09:50 Subject: Mite thresholds > Are there any European beekeepers on the List who managed varroa without > acaricides and lived through the reinfestation period? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mick bozard Subject: Re: all Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! Comments: To: cdvs@clemson.edu, lhopkin8@bellsouth.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I will pass this info along, I HAVE NOT USED THIS METHOD BUT !!!!!!!!! the fella that brought it to one of our meetings swears by it. Sooo here it goes..... Get a small jar, baby food jar is what he had. Cut very small slitts in the top, big enuff for the beetle but not the bee. Fill half of the jar with APPLE CIDER VINEGAR and a couple drops of honey Place in the hive, and a day or so presto a pickled beetle feast ! I saw the jar, the liquid and the beetles, your guess is good as mine as how well it works, i am incline to try it, cya mick _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:27:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I have been making splits over the weekend of honeybees and > have noticed some of the colonies are full of bees and SHB. > There was no brood or eggs, no visible queen but signs of > hatched queen cells. With SHB a hive that swarms is often a gonner. The reduced number of house bees cannot keep the frames clean of SHB eggs. > Everyone of the colonies that was like > this (full of bees but no brood,eggs, or visible queen) had > hundreds of SHB. One actually had larvae started in the honey > frames. Yes a gooie mess was starting to form. I first > thought the bees were robbing but then relized they were > working bringing in pollen and nectar. Hmmmmmmmmmm i thought > ?! These 3 colonies are sure to fail. The queen will stop laying once SHB larvae begin to attack the brood. You may be able to save the coloney by putting them on foundation. This would require pulling off all supers and getting them into a single box with foundation. This will help break the reproductive cycle of the SHB in the hive and give the house bees a chance to clean things up. This may not be an option for you. At the same time treating with strips and approved ground drench may also help. This may be more trouble than its worth but that is what I would try. Results will vary. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:51:34 -0400 Reply-To: kgbenson@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith G. Benson" Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! >At the same time treating with strips and >approved ground drench may also help. Hi, What are the reccomended/approved drenches? Keith Columbia, SC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:56:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Honey from deadout Comments: cc: mlathan@PACCAR.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Milt, I suggest you use 4 frames of honey plus either foundation or relatively clean drawn comb for your packages. Reserve the rest of the honey frames for later feeding. Replace any really dirty frames with foundation as opportunity arises. Dan Hendricks, Mercer Island, WA. Check out pugetsoundbees.org, especially the April Newsletter. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 23:39:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Mite thresholds In-Reply-To: <200204150540.g3F5XqUD025822@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200204150540.g3F5XqUD025822@listserv.albany.edu>, Bob Harrison writes >Until a way is found to calculate the amount of varroa in brood cells I find >the above method crude. I will however continue to use the method until a >better method comes along. In my area a hive with a natural mite fall in >June of 100 would be dead by end of August or infested so bad the hive could >not be saved. 100 mites would be at least 3000 mites and the figure could be >as high as 6000 in my opinion. There is no research so all you hear is >mostly theory. Steve did predictions based on his research and there are graphs in our CSL/MAFF (now DEFRA) publication on the subject. They show how to predict the increase of mite numbers from any estimate at any time of the year to any other time. 3000 in June would be ripe for treatment and as you say, the increase after June would take it too high for survival. According to the graph, 300 in June (beginning?) would be 2500 in 90 days so presumably 3000 in June would be 25000 in September, way above any of our colonies' ability to cope. The publication also gives the maximum number of mites in any one month not requiring treatment that same year (without reinfestation). Without reinfestation, an autumn figure of 200 would not need treatment in the following year. >All depends on the amount of varroa in brood cells, number of frames of >brood and population of the hive. Our hives are getting close to 60,000 >population on 15 frames of brood in June. 900 mites would not be a serious >problem in such a hive. >A hive with 4 or 5 frames of brood and say 30,000 bees might need treatment. >The more you look at threshold the more puzzeled you become. I am sure you are right in leading us to % bees with mites. Some posts do use this and 10-15% has been mentioned as (I think) a threshold level. We do have the problem that if we treat too soon, we may not see the bees sudden response to high levels by "chewing out" larvae and grooming off the adults. Sorry I forget who posted the observation recently about mite falls climbing to 70 when they suddenly dropped due to this phenomenon. In any case, the specific threshold for a colony will depend on its resistance to viruses. Given that substances such as thymol help the bees immune system perhaps this allows a higher threshold? I am lurching towards an IPM system with selection and breeding from bees that snip mite legs. I left 4 colonies untreated last winter. I added bees to 2 which had few bees and good queens from a strong colony also untreated. The first shake seemed fine. A few days later, a second shake on to a board for them to climb up to the second colony, taken from the centre of the brood nest showed 1 bee with deformed wings and a dozen or so smaller, grey looking, *very* slow moving bees (virtually still) (say under 2%) contrasting strongly with the black active bees. I did not notice them in my inspection of this hive. This tells me that they also have one of the paralysis viruses. Needless to say, all untreated colonies are now treated. I did treat a bit late last year and noticed some colonies with dwv. This year, the range in strength of the colonies is enormous. I have split 3 into 2 boxes - 2 acting like it was summer, packing in nectar and drawing wax in the supers. Others are advantaged by larger brood frames and I have several strong ones on 8 frames with brood, much more advanced than previous years. My hypothesis is that these colonies are better placed regarding varroa and viruses. More detailed observations with mesh floors and a trawl of my records will hopefully demonstrate this. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:50:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Mite thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James and All, James wrote: Without reinfestation, an autumn > figure of 200 would not need treatment in the following year. (according to the varroa calculator) If you are saying a sticky board reading of 200 varroa in September does not need treatment I see this figure way to high for an area with severe winter. I have heard figures as high as 160 and feel 160 might be too high for an area in which the bees are confined for a long over winter period. I appriciate the amount of work Steve put in his calculator. In my opinion there is simply to many varibles between each hive for a one method fits all. The calculator is a place for the novice to start and learn from. Steve based his calculator on what he thinks he saw from his research in his part of the world . His findings *will not * work in mine. I hate to say these thinks but you and I have discussed many beekeeping issues before and you know which buttons to push James to get a response. Thanks to Steve for his work on the varroa calculator. Another beekeeping tool but only as good as the person using the tool. James wrote: We do have the problem that if we treat too soon, we may not see > the bees sudden response to high levels by "chewing out" larvae and > grooming off the adults. As I said in a post on Bee-L a couple years ago about this phenonomon that most hives will "chew out" larvae and groom to one degree or another BUT only (in my opinion) when the varroa load really gets climbing. Unlike some of my fellow beekeepers and researchers I have never seen this phenonomon as the answer for varroa. Certainly a important trait worth selecting for (breeder queen) in Dee Lusbys type of non chemical type of beekeeping. Surviving varroa with out chemical treatments of any kind is like organic gardning. A few gardners are successful if they stay on top of things and get lucky but most gardners find the use of a chemical every once in a while makes life easier. > In any case, the specific threshold for a colony will depend on its > resistance to viruses. We have known about secondary infections from the start with varroa. No one disputs secondary infections. Now that Bailey, Carrick and others have definned the problem lets step ahead to solutions. Solving the virus problem is complicated (expensive and time consumming). Agreed? Given that substances such as thymol help the > bees immune system perhaps this allows a higher threshold? I noticed you did not say *might*. Any proof from research Thymol is a help for the tiny bees delicate immune system or another theory from *across the pond* . > I am lurching towards an IPM system with selection and breeding from > bees that snip mite legs. James you are not *lurching* but in my opinion moving forward steadily. Our friend Murray (lurker lately) is probabbly better to guide you than me for your area of the world. I use chemicals when I see no other way. I would love to get off the chemical treadmill but for now I see no other way. Maybe you, Dee and others will find the solution . James wrote: I left 4 colonies untreated last winter. Most hives will survive two years *if* the intitial varroa load is not too high. James wrote: > from the centre of the brood nest showed 1 bee with deformed wings and a > dozen or so smaller, grey looking, *very* slow moving bees Using *leave alone* methods I always find a few bees with k wings. < strength of the colonies is enormous. Varroa always breaks threshold first on your strongest hives because of the brood rearing factor (which is impossible at present to factor in with the varroa calculator). Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:34:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kenn Tuckey Subject: Alberta Provincial Apiculturst Position MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I trust that this announcement is of sufficient interest to merit posting to your list. As many of you know I retired from this position on February 15, 2002. Because of a Government of Alberta hiring freeze I could not be replaced at the time. The position has just been posted on the Government of Alberta job site at http://www.pao.gov.ab.ca/jobs/015030.HTM If this does not lead you directly to the posting look under Natural Science/ Agriculture. The closing date is May 3, 2002 so if you are interested apply quickly. Good luck Kenn Tuckey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:27:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Use Honey from a Deadout hive?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What did the bees die of? Was it FOUL BROOD? If you DON'T know FOR SURE, I would destroy the entire colony and honey Of course, you can take a chance, hope it is NOT foul brood, but if you are wrong, you have just inoculated ALL of your equipment and your other bees, and their honey with foul brood spores. If you are sure of no foul brood, the honey is perfectly good to use for a new colony of bees. The new bees will quickly clean up the green mold. Hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:16:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Mite thresholds In-Reply-To: <200204170405.g3H3TQXH013095@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200204170405.g3H3TQXH013095@listserv.albany.edu>, Bob Harrison writes >Without reinfestation, an autumn >> figure of 200 would not need treatment in the following year. >(according to the varroa calculator) > >If you are saying a sticky board reading of 200 varroa in September does not >need treatment I see this figure way to high for an area with severe winter. >I have heard figures as high as 160 and feel 160 might be too high for an >area in which the bees are confined for a long over winter period. No, I meant an estimated 200 mites in the hive. That would imply about 2 per day on the tray or sticky board at that particular time! In the brood rearing time, about 80 per day would be the threshold. BTW the figure of 2500 total mite load comes from the observation that after the cessation of brood rearing, colonies with 2500 mites survived the winter. Above this figure, the survival dropped as the mite load increased. With an early brood rearing cycle, this might need to be lowered if spring losses were to be avoided. >I appriciate the amount of work Steve put in his calculator. In my opinion >there is simply to many varibles between each hive for a one method fits >all. The calculator is a place for the novice to start and learn from. Steve >based his calculator on what he thinks he saw from his research in his part >of the world . I am not really talking about the calculator. I am reading graphs which came out of his research. I have them in front of me. >His findings *will not * work in mine. I hate to say these thinks but you >and I have discussed many beekeeping issues before and you know which >buttons to push James to get a response. Now you tell me! No pushing buttons intended at all. Just a fair response to a point made. I did not challenge your assertion that there was no research on the point! In any case, we are at pains to mention from time to time that the work was done in the UK with typical UK bees. However, apart from the threshold problem of virus susceptibility, hygienic factor removal of mites and build up according the viability of varroa reproduction in the strain of bees, and seasonal brood rearing according to race/strain, mite build up is determined by the mites not the bees. In other words, during the brood rearing time, X varroa will produce X x reproduction factor per generation, which has the same duration here as there. So we have a lot in common. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes some of the time - I have noticed this in other posts. >Thanks to Steve for his work on the varroa calculator. Another beekeeping >tool but only as good as the person using the tool. > >James wrote: > We do have the problem that if we treat too soon, we may not see >> the bees sudden response to high levels by "chewing out" larvae and >> grooming off the adults. > >As I said in a post on Bee-L a couple years ago about this phenonomon that >most hives will "chew out" larvae and groom to one degree or another BUT >only (in my opinion) when the varroa load really gets climbing. Unlike some >of my fellow beekeepers and researchers I have never seen this phenonomon as >the answer for varroa. Certainly a important trait worth selecting for >(breeder queen) in Dee Lusbys type of non chemical type of beekeeping. Sorry but there was a recent post showing a sudden drop in mite count. IMHO this is a good indicator for breeding - not the immediate answer, but at least a good start. Please remember John Dews and his Austrian inspiration find mite leg snipping effective and have bred this or are breeding this into bees. It does appear to trigger off at some critical level, which requires the breeder to maintain a high but non-lethal mite level so as to notice the behaviour. >Given that substances such as thymol help the >> bees immune system perhaps this allows a higher threshold? > >I noticed you did not say *might*. Any proof from research Thymol is a help >for the tiny bees delicate immune system or another theory from *across the >pond* . Perhaps and a question mark were intended as such - a question posed - a speculation of mine - not a theory. I am asking if there is any evidence anywhere. I have not seen any. But its beneficial effect has been claimed. I am not going to let the tone of the comment "another theory from *across the pond*" push my buttons!! >> I am lurching towards an IPM system with selection and breeding from >> bees that snip mite legs. > >James you are not *lurching* but in my opinion moving forward steadily. Our >friend Murray (lurker lately) is probabbly better to guide you than me for >your area of the world. I use chemicals when I see no other way. I would >love to get off the chemical treadmill but for now I see no other way. Maybe >you, Dee and others will find the solution . I am following John Dews. >James wrote: > I left 4 colonies untreated last winter. This was the lurching part - no tray to assess the mite level due to sizing differences in the design and no "round tuits" left. >Most hives will survive two years *if* the intitial varroa load is not too >high. Load not assessed. Just no dwv at treatment time (late) plus the potential for continuous monitoring. I was working with the hypothesis that treatment the previous year was effective and this was one of the "most hives will survive" group, but subject to confirmation by the monitoring which I had intended to carry out after making the trays. >James wrote: >> from the centre of the brood nest showed 1 bee with deformed wings and a >> dozen or so smaller, grey looking, *very* slow moving bees > >Using *leave alone* methods I always find a few bees with k wings. No K-wings at all. Grey, small and still, wings OK. I was unhappy to see this. It is the first time I have seen it. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 07:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: apism@attbi.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apism Subject: Re: hive configuration In-Reply-To: <200204031443.g33EScIc022856@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "As for the tube entrance, That should work regardless of the size of the hive body used. Any wire mesh used at the bottom to close off the entrance or for a mesh floor would have to be quite small to keep out the hive beetle, since it is about 1/4 the size of a bee (or less)." Sorry for the late reply, catching up on bee-mail. In the April issue of ABJ, some research was published about using modified hive entrances for the control of Small Hive Beetles. The summary was basically that using a tube entrance in place of the standard entrance (which is closed for maximum beetle control) shows promise in early tests. There were some problems however. "Colonies with pipe entrances seem to have associated problems with reduced brood production, impaired thermoregulation, excess floor debris and poor water drainage." Possible solutions to these problems involve the use of OMF's, these however must be beetle-proof and must resist propolisation. Ken Haller Viking Honey Farm Arlington Heights, Illinois USA vikinghoneyfarm@attbi.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > If the normal nectar flow in your area begins about April > 15th, supers should be in place BEFORE that date. The "old > timers" used to put one super in place, add a second super > when the first was near full, and likewise for the 3rd super, > etc.; and lost swarm after swarm. Scientific research during > the past 20 years has clearly shown the best supering is to > put many supers on ALL AT THE SAME TIME (read page 618 in the > 1992 Edition of the Hive and Honey Bee). > Bees require additional space to reduce the moisture content of nectar to make honey. The additional cell space provided by the extra supers allows for faster evaporation (more surface area) and makes the work easier for the bees. I would have at least two empty supers (of drawn comb) on any hive during a nectar flow. One for the bees to cap, the other a working area for arriving nectar and the evaporation process. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa reproduction was ( Mite thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James and All, James wrote: In other words, during the brood rearing time, X varroa will > produce X x reproduction factor per generation, which has the same > duration here as there. Varroa reproduction is very complicated. I wish it was as simple as above. We did in fact believe in the U.S. varroa reproduction was predictable ten years ago. With the discovery of SMR and many facts about varroa reproduction we have slowly crawled forward in varroa control WITHOUT CHEMICALS . You have to crawl before you can walk. I said years ago the key to natural varroa control is solving the mysteries of varroa reproduction. I spent months looking at cerana trying to unlock the key to varroa not being able to reproduce in cerana worker brood believing if the same principal could be applied to mellifera the varroa problem could be solved. I NEVER saw virus control as the answer nor did any U.S. researchers I have talked to about possible varroa control other than chemicals. I do respect Dr. Carricks work and think the work worthwhile but remain skeptical. How long would any species survive if it could not reproduce? Turn varroa sterile or unable to reproduce and varroa would be history. Varroa will in my opinion always be the most serious pest beekeeping has ever faced. The Africanized bee research has been a huge waste of beekeeping research dollars in my opinion (and still is). I oppose all but the most important AHb research. We know all we need to know about AHb. Let us destroy or requeen bad tempered hives and move on. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:10:33 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Silvio_Jos=E9_Reis_da_Silva?= Subject: Re: varroa reproduction was ( Mite thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob and all. I am a beekeeper and researcher in Brazil, Amazon Basin. I have always worked with AHB until 1999. At this year I began to work with EHB hybridized as Africans drones. In the principle the bees grow very well. After one year I perceived some signals of high infestation by Varroa. The symptoms were typical of Varroa syndrome. When I investigated many pupa brood I saw lots of them with black abdomen. I do slides and bacteria wasn't found. I don't after perceived it in the AHB because they don't get Varroa syndrome easy. In many AHB I perceived spot brood and when it were treated with terramicina the symptoms disappeared. In AHB the Varroa infestation is not a problem but the viruses transmitted by mite is so great problem. In the European bee the problem is two fold, Varroa infestation and Varroa syndrome (viruses). Silvio José Reis da Silva Museu Integrado de Roraima Av. Brigadeiro Eduardo Gomes s/n Boa Vista, CEP 69305-010 Roraima, Brasil silviosilva@bol.com.br > I NEVER saw virus control as the answer nor did any U.S. researchers I have > talked to about possible varroa control other than chemicals. I do respect > Dr. Carricks work and think the work worthwhile but remain skeptical. > > Sincerely, > Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:51:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: pupa with black abdomen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Silvio and All, Thanks for the post. I will try to discuss your observations and maybe we can flush out a lurker U.S. researcher . Silvio wrote: I investigated many pupa brood I saw lots of them with black abdomen. I have spent quite a bit of time looking through my beekeeping books and have failed to find a virus which describes the symptom of black abdomen. Page 1111 of the 92 issue of "The Hive and the Honey Bee " lists many rare viruses and only says to see Bailey's work from 1981 for more information. If you are looking at a virus ( Bob putting head on chopping block to be cut off by lurking researchers) in my opoinion you are looking at one of the rare Bailey viruses if a virus.. Another possible senario is you are looking at a noninfectious disorder. Quote from page 1111 of the 92 edition of the "Hive and the Honey Bee" : " Most often dead or discollored pupae result from a nonifectious condition. for a good review of nonifectious disorders of honey bees ,see Tucker (1978). Silvio wrote: In many AHB I perceived spot brood and when it were treated with terramicina the symptoms disappeared. I did not have much luck treating viruses with terramycin. Possibly others on the list have had the same success as you. Terramycin is used for AFB and EFB in the U.S. and is tossed at about every disease which effects most farm animals. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: moving bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Moved my hives to our new property last night. All went well until I = came back this morning. Bees were fighting everywhere. They didn't = calm down till the afternoon. I'm guessing bees lost in their = orientation flight? I had put the hives back in the same order. Anyway, = I didn't get any replies regarding relocating the entrance from the = bottom to the top so I'm going to try it this weekend. Sunny and very = warm here. Lots of pollen coming in. Kent Stienburg South Eastern Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Susan Adams Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Susan Adams Subject: laying workers ----double brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- Hi...I started to use double brood boxes. I noticed that some the queen is laying in the top box and some are in the bottom...should I move them to a more desirable position??? Also I have a colony of laying workers...getting a new queen next week...any suggestions on how I should handle this ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:51:56 -0700 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Adams wrote: > Also I have a colony of laying workers...getting a new queen next > week...any suggestions on how I should handle this Take the entire hive a distance of a couple hundred yards from its original location. Dump *every* bee out on the ground - do not miss a single bee, it could be the laying worker. Set the hive back in its original location for the returning bees. The laying worker(s) will not return to the hive. Then you can re-qeen. AL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:19:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AL wrote: > > Susan Adams wrote: > > > Also I have a colony of laying workers...getting a new queen next > > week...any suggestions on how I should handle this > > Take the entire hive a distance of a couple hundred yards from its > original location. Dump *every* bee out on the ground - do not miss a > single bee, it could be the laying worker. Set the hive back in its > original location for the returning bees. The laying worker(s) will not > return to the hive. Then you can re-qeen. I believe recent research shows that this approach does not work and the laying worker is as likely to return as all the others. I have tried many different approaches and and finally concluded it is not worth trying to requeen a colony that had a laying wrker. Also, there is not necessarily only one worker that is laying. Unless handling killed the queen, then there is something else going on that I see no need to propagate. I would use the new queen with a split of a good colony rather than try and save one which may have other problems. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes Susan, if the bees are past a certain age, will they really be able to take care of your new queen? And will they be able to feed and care for new brood? If you really want to save the hive, and are willing to do extra work, you could put some sealed brood into the middle of the hive, then wait for them to hatch. Then put another frame of partially sealed brood in at the same time as your new queen. Otherwise, you could do as Bill suggests and combine, to get extra productivity out of one of your other hives. Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes Comments: To: Susan Adams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Susan Adams" > I have a colony of laying workers...getting a new queen next > week...any suggestions on how I should handle this Don't waste your queen on a futile effort to requeen the laying worker hive. Instead use your new queen to make a nuc from a good colony, with normal brood. After she is established, put the nuc in the place where the laying worker hive was (make sure they have room enough for the bees they will gain). Give them some syrup so they'll all be happy when the bees mix. Take the laying worker hive away, maybe a hundred feet. You can leave it for a couple hours of flight to let the older bees go back to the home site and join the nuc. This will make the next job easier, because only gentle young bees will be left, if there are any young bees. (Laying worker hives that have been that way for a long time will only have old bees.) Then shake out the bees that are left. The young bees will find and rejoin a hive; the laying worker(s) will probably not, or they will be thought to be queens and killed at the entrance of any hive they try to enter. When most of the bees have been shaken out, you can use the box as a super on another hive. You see, laying workers are recognized by the bees as their queen; though it is a false idea, it is firmly held by the bees. A laying worker hive gets full of old bees and often they can be really mean. They will usually kill an introduced queen. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:15:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: > > Susan, if the bees are past a certain age, will they really be able to take > care of your new queen? And will they be able to feed and care for new > brood? If you really want to save the hive, and are willing to do extra > work, you could put some sealed brood into the middle of the hive, then > wait for them to hatch. Then put another frame of partially sealed brood in > at the same time as your new queen. Otherwise, you could do as Bill > suggests and combine, to get extra productivity out of one of your other > hives. I appreciate Tim's suggestion, and it might work, but all it did for me when I did it was to postpone the inevitable and the colony was dead by spring or earlier. A waste of a good queen adn frames of brood and bees. Like I said, you do not end up with laying workers unless something is wrong somewhere, and why keep it alive to kill again. Sounds like a B horror movie... but then, laying workers are Bee horrors. Stay with the good and get rid of the bad. Split a good one and you will continue with the good. I do not know how may times, when I started keeping bees, that I tried to keep runt colonies alive because of false economics, only to keep alive all those bad traits. Since I raise my own queens, it was terminally stupid to pass on bad genes. Consider - to rescue the laying worker hive you need to use frames of brood and a lot of hope. With the same frames of brood and bees and with a couple of honey, you can start a nuc and a new colony. And all with good bees and not bad ones. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:44:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Howe Subject: carpenter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few years back, before I got my bees, I had an infestation of carpenter bees living in my deck. I had them exterminated and that was that. Lately however I have seen a carpenter bee lingering around my hives. Dunno where it lives. Is this a potential threat? What should I do? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: carpenter bees Comments: cc: johnhowe@IX.NETCOM.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "John Howe" > A few years back, before I got my bees, I had an infestation of carpenter > bees living in my deck. I had them exterminated and that was that. Lately > however I have seen a carpenter bee lingering around my hives. Dunno where > it lives. Is this a potential threat? What should I do? It's dismaying to hear that one of our beekeeping fraternity has such a cavalier attitude toward one of our major pollinators. Carpenter bees are taking up some of the slack for early spring bloom, where honeybees are not present. See: http://www.pollinator.com/gallery/April/carp_privet.htm Learn about them, before the knee-jerk response to a myth. They are no threat, either for stinging, or for your buildings. The stories about them "riddling" boards are from those who kept poisoning the holes so the bees had to drill new ones. My workshop has stood for almost 50 years, with a major population of carpenter bees, that always signal the arrival of spring to me. The building stands firm, despite many carpenter nests. We had about 50 tons in one end of it last year without even a sag on the "riddled" joists. I used to do home repair in another life, and while I sometimes saw carpenter bee nests, I never saw significant damage. I know; many of our tax supported state extension agencies will tell you how to kill them, without so much as a mention of their value as pollinators. This kind of advice is misuse of my tax money. In some places, where any bees are scarce, folks have learned their value and put up housing sites for them, so their fruit gets pollinated. Protect our pollinators. The food supply you save may be for your grandchildren. Or for wildlife... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:58:40 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Silvio_Jos=E9_Reis_da_Silva?= Subject: Re: pupa with black abdomen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob. In respect your comments I give some explanations. >Bob wrote > I have spent quite a bit of time looking through my beekeeping books and > have failed to find a virus which describes the symptom of black abdomen. > Page 1111 of the 92 issue of "The Hive and the Honey Bee " lists many rare > viruses and only says to see Bailey's work from 1981 for more information. > If you are looking at a virus ( Bob putting head on chopping block to be cut > off by lurking researchers) in my opoinion you are looking at one of the > rare Bailey viruses if a virus.. Bob I don't have sure if the black abdomen is viruses disease, but if it was other agent, bacteria, fungal or protozoal I would see in the microscope. I saw the black abdomen principally in high infested colonies. And many other colonies presented sacbrood in so high level that some colonies perished. In scabrood you can see black larvas. Will be that the pupa are affected too? In the grafiting I got many quens with deformed wing and other died in the cupula with blackish color. > Another possible senario is you are looking at a noninfectious disorder. > Quote from page 1111 of the 92 edition of the "Hive and the Honey Bee" : > " Most often dead or discollored pupae result from a nonifectious condition. > for a good review of nonifectious disorders of honey bees ,see Tucker > (1978). I read this book and I think almost remote this possibility > I did not have much luck treating viruses with terramycin. Possibly others > on the list have had the same success as you. Terramycin is used for AFB > and EFB in the U.S. and is tossed at about every disease which effects most > farm animals. You may read in " Diagnosis of Honey Bee Diseases. USDA. " pages 28 give the symptoms of Parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) and in " Control of Varroa: a guide for New Zealand Beekeeper" available on the net, you can have, for me, the best collection of studies about Varroa. In the pgs 19 to 21 is given explations about PMS either is cited the use of terramycin or/and Apistan to resolve the problem. Silvio Brazil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 22:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: carpenter bees Comments: cc: "johnhowe@IX.NETCOM.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have seen a carpenter bee lingering around my hives. > Dunno where it lives. There is one place you can check - the upper surface inside each recessed handhold on each hive body and super. I found a carpenter bee that had made a home in exactly that location once. A small amount of "sawdust" below the hole gave her away. > Is this a potential threat? No. They don't even have stingers. If a carpenter bee "bothered" your honeybees, it would be driven off or killed in short order. > What should I do? Practice your "bee lining". Carpenter bees are big enough and slow enough to be easier to track than honeybees. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 19:01:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: pupa with black abdomen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Silvio, Slivio wrote; > Bob I don't have sure if the black abdomen is viruses disease, but if it was > other agent, bacteria, fungal or protozoal I would see in the microscope. I > saw the black abdomen principally in high infested colonies. But if I understand the above you did see the black abdomen in a few colonies with low infestation? And many other > colonies presented sacbrood in so high level that some colonies perished. In > scabrood you can see black larvas. Will be that the pupa are affected too? Sacbrood is never a big issue in my colonies and at a level to kill hives . I never see sacbrood with a black abdomen. Maybe others will comment. It would seem the sacbrood larva is being affected also. I still believe you *might* be looking at a noninfectious disorder which would not show up under a microscope. Example of noninfectious disorder: "Noninfectious disorders can be the result of neglect, lethal genes, pollen or nectar from poisonous plants, toxic chemicals (pesticides) or other causes. " Above quote is from page 1111 of the 92 edition of the "Hive and the Honey Bee" : An outlaw beekeeper from South Missouri told me when I called and told him about the problem for you to quit treating varroa with sheep dip and the black abdomens will go away. I do not know about the use of illegal (in the U,S.) methods but thought I would pass on the information he provided. He thought the black abdomens were coming under the noninfectious disorders heading above (toxic chemicals pesticides). Hope I have helped. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: carpenter bees In-Reply-To: <200204192120.g3JL8PUF020818@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps the UK's carpenter bees are less damaging to structures than those in the US? Just as your nectar flow and "best" hive strength differ. The carpenter bees that have from time to time inhabited my deck make new tunnels each year, evidenced by the large sawdust piles under their holes in the spring. Since I was not poisoning the holes, that was not a cause of their tunneling. Left unchecked, they can seriously affect the integrity of a structure. However, it is only slightly more trouble to close up their holes when not in use and treat the wood to discourage their return -- they are welcome to tunnel tin any of the trees around, just not the railings that keep us from falling from the deck. In other locations, I've seen them become a real pest, buzzing people coming in and out of downstairs apartments. No real danger from the bees, but anxiety can cause it's own damage. Karen Oland -----Original Message----- From: Dave Green The stories about them "riddling" boards are from those who kept poisoning the holes so the bees had to drill new ones. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:11:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: laying workers ----double brood boxes In-Reply-To: <200204191438.g3JBuPen004830@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't waste your queen on a futile effort to requeen the laying >worker Like most ,I consider a laying worker hive an aberration of nature,totally without merit.However,if during swarm season,you know of a laying worker hive or two in the yard,you can grab a few swarm cells and stick in them.Most of them will come up with a queen and can build back up before fall.Later in the season its best to just shake them out and put the hive into storage.But throwing in swarm cells or even virgins will often do the trick.As for trying to save them with a mated queen,better to just mash her between your fingers and save yourself some labor,the odds are that bad. ----Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: carpenter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carpenter Bees are most impressive becuase of their immense size. It seems amazing that they even get off the ground. Then when they are airborne, they can hover in one spot for a time, then abruptly change course and maneuver instantly. As they depart from a hovering position, however, their movements appear almost "digital", in the sense that they seem to move in a single direction as they depart from a stationary position. They invariably get a great response from most people who are terrified of them (their size might suggest that their sting might be fatal) but as we know, they cannot sting. A whiffle ball bat, squash, badminton or tennis racket makes quick work of them. Many people don't like the tunnels they make in fascia boards around the house, and especially the pollen "trails" below the holes as they seem to have a hard time "docking" properly when carrying a full load of pollen. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 08:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: carpenter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The carpenter bees that have from time to time inhabited my deck make new > tunnels each year, evidenced by the large sawdust piles under their holes in > the spring. Since I was not poisoning the holes, that was not a cause of > their tunneling. Left unchecked, they can seriously affect the integrity of > a structure. If one wanted to raise carpenter bees, one could not do better than to put a cedar shake roof on their house. The spaces between the shakes are the perfect size for them - they seem to view the spaces as pre-made tunnels. A friend of mine who owns a roofing company in PA, USA found exactly this. The owner had tried various approaches at "pest control", and felt forced to replace the entire roof with non-wood (asphalt) shingles. The roofing crew was happy to hear that carpenter bees have no stingers, but were disappointed to hear that there would be no honey to harvest when removing the roof, so I shipped them a case of honey to lift their spirits. They gave some to the homeowner, which likely has them confused for life about carpenter bees. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Carpenter Bee Sting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several people have written: > but as we know, they cannot sting. *************** I believe the female carpenter bee can sting. The male protects a territory in front of the nest opening, hovering and chasing anything that intrudes into the air space. The male carpenter bee has a yellow, or pale yellow, square mark on his forehead; the female does not. The female does all the work: laying eggs and collecting nectar and pollen. She approaches and enters the nest hole, often carrying obvious pollen. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40N 75W ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:50:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beewaspflw@AOL.COM Subject: Re: carpenter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been eradicating carpenter bees for almost 15 years. They are becoming more of a problem each year as their natural habitat of mostly living in dead trees or limbs is being wiped out by the building of homes. The stain down the side of a house under the fascia board is a combination of pollen and waste. Yes they are good pollinators, but like bumblebees are not easily controlled for pollination of crops. They ARE NOT good pollinators for blueberries as they chew open the side of the bloom to get inside before it blooms. When it does bloom, most of your other pollinators use that side entrance that the carpenter bee made thus eliminating the pollination process. The carpenter bee is almost always mistaken for a bumblebee or vice versa. The main difference to watch for is the fascinating way the carpenter bee can hover right in front of your face whereas a bumble bee is most likely to be flying lower to the ground among the flowers. The carpenter bee also has a shiny black abdomen whereas the bumble bee is furry. The female has a slick stinger like the bumble bee therefore allowing her to put the stinger in and out multiple times. They build their nests in wood where the female drills a perfectly round 1/2" hole where she will make a channel or gallery. Galleries usually average 4 to 6 inches in length, but galleries used by a number of bees may go up to 10 feet in length. The female excavates the gallery by means of her mandibles. She can excavate 1 inch in six days. She furnishes her nest with "bee bread" (a mixture of pollen and regurgitated nectar); she lays an egg on top of it and closes the cell with chewed wood pulp. There may be six such sealed cells in a linear row in one gallery. The larval period extends from 37 to 47 days. These eggs hatch in late spring/early summer. They are territorial thus that family will return to the nest where they will hibernate in that channel for the remaining part of the summer and winter and will again emerge at the beginning of spring the next year where each of those carpenter bees that hatched out will then begin their own family. The new family can start more holes in the same house or use the neighbors house next door. I have gotten as many as 12 carpenter bees out of one hole. Unless treated, they will continue to populate and if inside fascia boards of your home, can cause enough damage to the point where the boards have to be replaced. Sometimes the woodpecker, who loves to eat the larvae, will cause as much if not more damage than the carpenter bee itself. The female has a black face and can sting as well as bite. The male has a white face, no stinger, but can produce a painful bite. (I had one fall down my shirt and the bite produced blood) They are not really aggressive just intimidating when trying to defend their nest. Carpenter bees prefer unpainted surfaces whether it be cedar, pine, redwood, or salt treated wood. However, I have seen them go through painted surfaces on occasion. The trick is to use several coats of a good paint and painting the back side of fascia boards can discourage them. Most people in this area of VA prefer to have them eradicated. I have a 3 step process which eliminates the family that has taken up residence in decks, roofs, or fascia boards. The following spring when a new family begins emerging from trees or a neighbors house, I ask the homeowner to keep watch because a new family could possibly begin. It is a matter of "nipping it in the bud" before it becomes a full fledge infestation. Plugging the holes only serves no purpose as they will make a new hole to get out unless a chemical is forced into the tunnel to eradicate the family. I have 20 hives and have NEVER had a problem with a carpenter bee trying to use the wood of a hive for his home. I do have a cedar log about 2 feet long where I have my "pets" that have been living there for the last few years. They fly around my home but have never bothered the wood of my house. However, they do love the cedar trees in my yard. I hope this clears up some of the misinformation and misunderstanding of carpenter bees. They are a fascinating insect but still not as fascinating as our wonderful honey bee!!!!! Floyd Watkins Knotts Island, NC/Va Beach, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:53:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Screen bottom boards I have had 100% of my hives on screen borrom boards, and have considered the experience excellent with improved ventilation and the possibility of decreased Varroa populations early in the season. Knowing this, Sue Cobey, the developer of New World Carniolans, sent me the following. Those of you who can read french are welcome to access the related web site: Fairly large scale 2 years testing of the screened bottom board tends to > show that this equipment can increase significantly the varroa > population if > it is used with an open bottom in the Quebec context. It seems that a > cooler brood chamber means better conditions for the varroa to > proliferate, > thus meeting the recent data collected by Kraus & Velthuis on the > effect of > temperature on varroa development. If used with a closed bottom the > average > decrease in fall mite counts is 37% on average but with important > variations. It seems also that the genetic origin of the queen and the > location of the apiary both have more impact on the mite levels than the > screened bottom. The screened bottom prooved to be a mervellous tool > for > sampling varroa populations under all kinds of circumstances (even > during a > honey flow. The screened bottom also shows promise for the breeding of > varroa tolerant bees, allowing the colonies to fully express their > grooming > ability. A breeding program has been initiated under such conditions. > > Unfortunately the research report is only available in french for the > moment. A french summary is also available on our web site (under > "Recherche & développement"). We will let you know as soon as a > translation > becomes available. > > Jean-Pierre Chapleau > Les Reines Chapleau > 1282, rang 8 > Saint-Adrien, (Québec) > Canada > J0A 1C0 > tél: (819) 828-3396, fax: (819) 828-0357 > site web: http://reineschapleau.wd1.net Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:38:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Denise Hubler Subject: Carpenter Bees boring in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year I caught a carpenter bee starting to bore into one of my hives. It was boring at the corner in the soft wood where the boards meet. This was a freshly painted new hive. I gave it one good bip with my finger and it never returned to finish the job. I guess it came over to my house to join it's buddies. We have 18 acres of woods and they still bore into the painted wood under our patio! Denise Hubler ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:13:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200204211443.g3LEd6UJ010079@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 5 of 8 hives on screened bottom boards. All made it through winter (with some feeding of new splits from last year). The three strongest this spring were not on the screened boards (one from a late swarm from another apiary, two established hives, one Italian, the other carniolan). However, the spring flow has only just started here in east TN (USA) and temps have been unseasonably high (upper 80's). So, those three strong colonies have a large force out front fanning, while the rest have essentially none - their force is our foraging. I expect them to pretty much even out in production in the end (as they seemed to do last year). But after the harvest last year, I had to feed some of the non-screen board colonies (esp. the Italians), as we had a drought that stopped the later (minor) flows until very late autumn. And in mid-summer, the colonies w/o screens would have 6" or better clusters of bees underneath, escaping the heat (I switched one to a screen then and they all went back inside, while the others continued to cluster outside until late in the evening). So, the ventilation benefit seems to be great. K. Oland -----Original Message----- From: LLOYDSPEAR I have had 100% of my hives on screen borrom boards, and have considered the experience excellent with improved ventilation ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Carpenter Bee Sting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The male carpenter > bee has a yellow, or pale yellow, square mark on his forehead; the female > does not. Here's a couple photos of the drone: http://www.pollinator.com/gallery/drone_carpenter.htm Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:06:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Carpenter Bees boring in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The city had sprayed the area that set a carport full of carpenter bees. They were attaching anything that went near the area. I instructed the family to stay inside and turn the lights out inside and on outside. It was 11 pm and they could not get into their home after parking the car in the carport. Backed out and called me. Got the family inside thur another side door. I instructed the family to stay inside and turn the lights out inside and on outside. The following day all was back to normal. Life goes on Michael Housel Orlandobee