From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:47:11 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDD54909A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3so010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0204E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 28778 Lines: 633 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim: >....consider the terra-patties that are available inexpensively from Mann Lake. “There has been recent evidence in this country for bacterial resistance to Terramycin. One of the suspected causes for this development is the sharp increase in use by beekeepers of the medicated vegetable oil extender patty. Bees do not always consume the patties rapidly which leads to a situation in which antibiotic lingers in the hive for weeks or even months. Resistance was not a problem in this country prior to the widespread use of extender patties in the 1990s. For these reasons it is recommended that Georgia beekeepers remove all uneaten portions of medicated extender patties after patties have been in the hive for one month.” There are a few more remarks at the University of Georgia site: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/American_Foulbrood.htm >I had one hive which had foul brood so bad that it stunk from outside the hive, and probably a third of the brood was putrid. I treated with these patties at the same time as with Checkmite Was that IPM (Integrated Pesticide Management)? >that was a mistake I most certainly agree with that >I couldn't remember which hive was infected, and all the hives were strong and healthy. Unfortunately the AFB spores are very likely still viable and will probably reappear. Did you burn the equipment? Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:32:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Terramycin. One of the suspected causes for this development is the sharp > increase in use by beekeepers of the medicated vegetable oil extender > patty. This is speculation and only speculation, nonetheless the idea has taken on a life of its own and is like an urban legend. It is repeated far and wide as truth, when in fact there is no evidence whatsoever behind the rumour -- only a good story. We have used extender patties for several years and tests show the few spores that can be found in our honey are highly susceptible to OTC. Fact. We see no disease at all now. Fact. > > I had one hive which had foul brood so bad that it stunk from outside the > > hive, and probably a third of the brood was putrid. I treated with these > > patties > >that was a mistake Why do you say that? If you cleared up the infection, you may never see more than an occasional cell of AFB again assuming you watch carefully and are careful to medicate annually in spring (and fall if you see any symptoms). If you obtain HYG stock, your chances are even better. > > I couldn't remember which hive was infected, and all the hives were strong > > and healthy. When it works, it works. I gather you were seeing active breakdown, not a huge mass of dried scale when you started medicating? In presence of an effective antibiotic, bees can clean up even bad scale when they are strong and conditions are right, but the recommendations are usually to destroy any large areas of scale. Small areas can be simply flattened down a bit to break the cell walls, but it is wise to just pull an destroy all scale. > Unfortunately the AFB spores are very likely still viable and will probably > reappear. Did you burn the equipment? Not a reasonable thing to do if in an area where AFB is endemic, or an operation where AFB has been found from time to time in the past. Burning is a real option, but should be considered only in the context of the area, the size and type of operation, and the history of disease. allen http://www.rossrounds.com/honeybee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards as trampoline In-Reply-To: <200204290400.g3T3UBUf001548@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Screened Bottom Boards as trampoline Extensive long term studies at Cornell University have demonstrated that screened bottom boards do not reduce mite build up in colonies. I think they are a waste of money. The mites that fall through them most likely are old and about to die anyway. However, if the bees use them as trampolines, well -- I guess they are entitled to a little bit of fun before we put them to work gathering honey for us!! -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't have packages here in front of me hence cannot check my arithmetic, but figuring out the correct proportions of medication and powdered surgar is pretty straight forward. Larry krengel wrote: > In our area we have been unable to acquire the usual 6.4 gram > TM packages. Again no packages in front of me, but my recollection is that the TM in that particular size was packaged in a 6.4 OUNCE package containing 10 GRAMS of oxytetracycline. Read the packaging carefully and be aware of the units of measure. From memory, the 6.4 ounce package was mixed with three 1-lb boxes of confectioners sugar (I used Dominos, disregarding concerns over corn starch). Hence, the final dusting material contained 10 grams of oxytet in 3 lbs. of confectioners sugar. Whatever concentration of Terramycin you are able to get, read the packaging CAREFULLY to determine the amount of active ingredient (oxytetracycline) contained in the package. Measure carefully by weight the amount of medication required to yield the grams of oxytetracycline required to mix with the confectioners sugar you will use. If the arithmetic is too daunting or if your needs are small, buy a pre-mix from one of the suppliers. Packaged TM (especially the 6.4 size) is hard to come by. I was told by Mann Lake that Pfizer sold the TM-part of their operation to another company who has yet to gear up to produce the package known and loved by beekeepers. However, the bee supply companies can and do mix large batches to repackage small-sized ready-mix formulas for beekeepers who need to treat only a few hives. My personal preference is to dust bees. I am wary of patties as they are not always consumed and therefore may deliver an incomplete dose of antibiotic. And there is the issue of prolonged exposure to a low dose of antibiotic fostering antibiotic resistence. And remember that oxytet is sensitive to light. Keep your medications in the dark. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:48:42 -0500 Reply-To: Golden S Bee Ranch Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Golden S Bee Ranch Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although some may not have good experience with screened bottom boards reducing mite populations, many claim benefits from using them such as increased ventilation in the hive leading to increased production in brood by the queen. I have heard of many experiencing better hive population and overwintering using screened bottom boards vs. not using them. Personally, I have not tried them yet, but I am going to experiment with it. Tim Stalnaker BeeRanch@Multipro.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:02:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions To Allen, Dick and Aaron, thanks for the comments. My background is farm managment, and 99% of commerical farmers use what works, with the assumtion that technology will keep up with the bad guys. Is this philosophy irresponsible? Maybe, but that's where I'm at. I treated with the patties and the Checkmite in the fall, as there were less bees and brood, and with the eucalytpus and such, January and Febuary are big honey months. I got my hives and equipment dirt cheap as they were dying out from mites, and I notice that when the hives get mites bad, they also get everything else, including foul brood, and there was some scattered around all my apiaries. Burning one would be inconsistant in my mind. It's now 6 months since treatments, and there is no foul brood, and I've only seen 2 mites out of 120 hives. Hopefully the mites and foul brood spores will be good enough to waite till October to get really frisky :-) But in the mean time, what with introducing new blood, including 2 Harbo breeders, and with consistant and simultanious and exhaustive treatment of about 5 dollars per hive which consisted of one patty and one strip, I've had production that I would never have thought possible. No dusting, no nothing except for the 4 or 5 minutes it took me and my 14 year old to put in the patty and strip, and to take them out again. Very best to all Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rich Bruno Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions Tim, In response to your post. In lieu of burning the hive what do you typically do to one with foul brood? Do you remove the infected frames and then treat. Just curious as I believe that many of these problems are due to mite infestation causing weak colonies and susceptability to other diseases. thanks Rich ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Everyone, Interesting post explaining what you did and why Tim. I do have one issue = which has already been raised by Rich. Your brood disease problem may not = have been foulbrood ( American foulbrood, AFB ) but due to the high = levels of varroa and associated virus infections. I have seen this = several times where at first look it appears to be AFB but closer = inspection indicates that it is not. Not sure what exactly is going on = but once the mite population is reduced the condition clears up with or = without antibiotic treatment. You observed 1/3 rd of the brood effected = and this is well within my observations of brood damage due to high varroa = populations. A shortage of pollen and nectar or honey stores also = contributes to this condition at times but again if the varroa problem is = dealt with the colonies usually turn around nicely. If they are starving = of course you also need to feed them. As Tim observed heavy mite pressure = on the bees causes stress and other factors that wouldn't usually cause = visible problems shows up. Now if the brood condition you saw was due to = the varroa/virus problem there is no AFB scale for the colonies to deal = with or to cause later breakdown. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:53:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why use all the acronyms? I cannot figure out what people are talking about. I have talked with others in the same shape. Lionel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:44:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions Blane and Rich, Thanks, and you've succeded is shaking my certainty somewhat, which is a good thing. I had a lot of foul brood in Santa Barbara County in the 80's both in my hives and in the hives of Art Consur for whom I worked for awhile. (I hear he's retired recently, some may know him). When I stuck the twig into the dead larvae it was just as ropey, the color was the same, and the stink, as you know, isn't something one smells everywhere in nature :-). The scale at the bottom of the cell is also the same. Where I'm at now is 30 minutes north of where I experienced it before, and I hear from others that foul brood is a problem hear. Having said that, I didn't get a test done. I guess what I should have left one without the patties, but it goes against my nature ;-). Regards Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:21:20 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I don't have packages here in front of me hence cannot check my arithmetic, > but figuring out the correct proportions of medication and powdered surgar > is pretty straight forward. Just to share our calculations with all... (completed by a pair of aged science teacher/beekeepers) - The new TM 343 contaings 102.4 grams of TM or 102,400 milligrams. According to package directions, each treatment should be 200 mg. 102,400 / 200 = 512 treatments. To make it simpler for those who do not have a gram scale handy, we measured by volume instead of weight. The package contains 51 level teaspoons. 102,400 / 51 = 2007.8 mg/teaspoon. (about 2000 mg/teaspoon) In other words ten 200mg treatments. Making it easy we just mixed one level teaspoon with 10 heaping tablespoons of powered sugar making each heaping tablespoon per hive per treatment. I'm sure there are other solutions. We were hoping for simplicity. Comments are welcome. Larry Krengel - I bee, therefore I think. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:28:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions In-Reply-To: <200204300102.g3U12HU5002701@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: > When I stuck the twig into the dead larvae it was just as ropey, the color > was the same, and the stink, as you know, isn't something one smells > everywhere in nature :-). The scale at the bottom of the cell is also the > same. > The virus -killed brood associated with varroa(PMS?) tends to die in the later stages of developement,often just before emergence.I've checked for ropiness with the twig,and it doesnt string out like AFB.No scale,just dead brood loose in the cell.No strong AFB smell either.The bees do try to uncap it,so you will see chewed cappings ,but the adult bees are dieing so fast they cant keep up with it.The general appearence doesnt really look like AFB either,the cappings arent dark and sunken.So...If it looks like AFB,smells like AFB,its probably AFB(especially in California) -------Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hubbard Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards as trampoline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: Extensive long term studies at Cornell University have demonstrated that screened bottom boards do not reduce mite build up in colonies. Do you have a reference for this so I could read the information? Thanks, Mark hubbard@cofo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:38:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Marking Hives with Odors Fellow Beekeepers, As you are aware, some beekeepers mark their hives with a bold geometric pattern, to keep bees oriented to their own hive, to cut down on drifting. This seems to be used where hives are kept in long rows, where bees do not have distinct landmarks to guide them home. Here's an idea. Mark the hives in this situation with an odor. Staple a piece of cinnamon bark next to the entrance of one hive. On another hive, staple on a whole clove. A paper spotted with vanilla on another. Yellow pine bark. Sassafras root. Achillea. Sage. Rosemary. The odor sources would best be durable, non-rain soluble items. Or they could be sheltered by a bit of plastic, folded over to shed water. A bee returning to the hive has better odor recognition, I believe, than recognition of geometric shapes or colors. I would appreciate your unmerciful criticism, or unbounded praise for this proposal. :) Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Terramycin application questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and All, Mike wrote: ..If it looks like AFB,smells like AFB,its probably AFB I agree completely Mike! The PMS I have looked at is as Mike has said. It is true weak hives and less hygienic hives have a harder time with AFB but ( in my opinion) AFB is not *common* in hives dying from PMS and high infestations of varroa mites. Unlike many on the list which found Tim's method of only treating the active AFB disease reasonable I find the method only masks the disease. I have seen Tim's AFB method used many times and by some highly respected beekeepers. Those same beekeepers always seem (to me ) to be talking about the AFB problem which never seems to go away. My solution to AFB is to remove all AFB combs to the shop and go through the boxes and decide what to do with each comb . Some I burn, others I melt the wax and boil the frames and some I return the the bees. My method involves quite a bit of work but I feel worth the effort. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Beekeepers were arguing over the best ways to handle AFb a hundred years ago and I expect they will still be arguing a hundred years from now over the best way to handle equipment with AFB spores" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hubbard Subject: Re: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to know if anyone has a literature reference to the Cornell studies Mr. Borst mentioned showing screen boards have no effect on mite populations. I would like to track that information down. Thanks. Mark hubbard@cofo.edu "studies at Cornell University have demonstrated that screened bottom boards do not reduce mite build up" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Victors Subject: Storage of package bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I am hoping that someone on the list has information on the optimal storage conditions for package bees. I am sure that temperature plays a role as well as feeding the bees on the outside of the cluster that are removed from the feeder can and can’t access moisture as well as those bees that are in the center. I understand that the faster the bees get into the hive the better it is for both the beekeeper and the bees. What I am trying to get information on is how long, and under what conditions can I store bees in the package while waiting for fellow beekeepers to pick them up and hive them. Steve Victors Big Lake Alaska thfofc@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Fellow Amateurs - A Lesson Learned! Last year I had a hive in two deeps which the bees had stuck together. In late summer, I told myself I would use a trick I had read about - use piano wire to separate the burr/bridge comb. Well - I never did. Sunday - we finally had weather warm and dry enough to get out to reverse the (now three deeps) colony and figuring that the bees were mostly in the top, I thought I'd just gently lift and turn the deeps to separate them. Long Story Shortened: NEVER have I killed so many bees and brood! The top box came off ok, full of bees but light on stores left a clump of mixed honey and brood which had formed between the boxes. Cleaned that up and confidently attacked the bottom 2 deeps - it's Spring right? the bees will all be up in the top - right? Wrong - most were down at the Junction between the two boxes where at least six frames were joined by comb containing brood and a couple more frames held reddish honey and some pollen. Again, I "gently" twisted the boxes apart - but - fast or slow - crushing bees is crushing bees. I hope I didn't kill the queen -from her laying pattern - spotty, lots of early drones - she needs to be replaced - yet she brought the hive through the winter with lots of bees. I scraped hundreds of brood in all stages from the Pierco frame (I blame my box brand mixing for the original problem, BTW) tops and bottoms and the one good thing I saw was no mites on any of them. Bottom board was loaded with black "stuff" mixed with wax scales to the point that the colony only had a very small entrance and slugs had found their way to the stuff and apparently liked it cause they stayed. Anyway - learn from my mistakes - Keep the burr comb under control from the get go. The bees will tell you right away if your boxes have too much "bee-space" by building lots of comb - fix the boxes right away! If I had been able to quickly check this hive in late winter I would have known it was a hive I could split. Well, this BeeHaver keeps learning - but - the poor bees! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:24:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Leiws" Subject: Re: Fellow Amateurs - A Lesson Learned! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A hard lesson. perhaps others will learn from it. tnx for posting. Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:23:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: Screened BB, construction In-Reply-To: <200204280427.g3S4JdUB010336@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Carmenie asked about screened bottom board construction I converted OAC pollen traps into screened bottom boards by turning them upside down, tacking thin strips of wood onto the bottom, using restaurant trays for testing tray(supported by thin strips of wood mentioned above) and self adhesive shelf paper for sticky boards(sticky side up). Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N PS: Carmenie asked about recycling numbers on pails. I checked my cupboard and found food containers with all of the numbers 1-7. Motor oil comes in containers labeled 2, so you can't use these numbers to guide you to safe food grade containers. Does anyone have accurate info on plastic pails?