From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:45:24 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3921B49090 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sg010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0205B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 132490 Lines: 2857 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 16:36:51 +1200 Reply-To: paul@ww.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul D Brown Subject: Influence of temperature in Varroa population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I set up two of my hives here in Auckland, New Zealand using the ‘hollow tree’ model and trialled it last year. The West and North hives were made 'floorless’ (240mm height above ground level) The 'sub-floor space' has an enclosed base (or stand) but there is no screen or floor above the 'soil floor'. I measured the depth of the ‘bee cluster’ below the bottom bar of the brood box at dusk. Date 8April 15April 22April 29April 12May North hive 40mm 55mm 68 40 37 West hive 30mm 55mm 50 55 45 I also used a digital thermometer to measure the temperature up through my West hive. From memory the cluster depth of this hive was only about 20mm at the time of the temperature scan. The scan started under the brood box (cluster) and the sensor was lifted up through the middle of the hive right up to the 'ceiling'. (the outside temperature was about 20 degrees C on the day) Position of sensor Temperature/degrees C 90mm below bottom bar 19.3 level with bottom bar 24.8 100mm up into the box 34.1 200mm up 34 300mm up 33.3 400mm up 33.1 500mm at top of hive 33.2 (It would be good to have some more data near the -50mm and +50mm levels. It's not hard to do!) I suppose the point I am making is that the bees keep the temperature uniform around the brood. Maybe the drone cells at the bottom of the frame in the bottom brood box are a bit cooler. If the screen is positioned only 20mm below the bottom frame bar and the sub-floor space is open to the breezes, then the bees may not be able to reach the desired brood raising temperature within the given 25mm, say. My latest 'mesh screens' are positioned 50 mm below the bottom frame bar. (Some drone comb is built in this 50mm space during 'spring build') Cheers Paul b. -- a cool day here in Auckland NZ. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:34:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Odd Bee Statistics Comments: To: dublgully@FUSE.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm looking for some back-up for the assertion, seen elsewhere, that in their lifetime a worker will produce about 1/12 of a teaspoon of honey. This is, of course, a very obvious falsehood as stated, since the statement obviously cannot be true in all, or even most cases. Exceptions are obvious and many. Some workers' entire lives take place during winter or a dearth, or are cut short, so it is not true of them. I cannot think how any such number could have any respectibility. Nevertheless, it *might* be possible to estimate the maximum or (perhaps) average potential of an *average* worker in an *average* hive in an *average* state in an *average* country under specified assumptions, but even then any such result is strictly a very artificial, made-up number. The extremely wide variabilty in production from different hives with similar populations should be a signal to anyone who is even vaguely familiar with bees to be cautious in believing any such assertions. The futility and meaninglessness of such misapplications of mathematics and the doubtfulness of any result of such calculations has, however, never discouraged many from generating such meaningless and unfounded 'statistics'. Abuse of numbers is a popular sport. Moreover, the obvious lack of truth in such numbers as they are stated has never, in the least, discouraged others from repeating such tomfoolery as absolute truth to an appreciative and gullible audience. I think what I am saying is that there is no credible back-up for this stat as it is stated, but that doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people who believe it. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 16:11:24 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Jenter frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello. I promised i'd post some pictures of my Jenter frame. If you're interested, take a look at http://www.geocities.com/anderssonsbigardar/bilder.htm. The rest of this site is under construction, so there's really nothing more there to see yet. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:57:09 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Nucs through the mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps it would be a good idea to check the temperature, ventilation, etc within the USMail service, en route, when nucs have not arrived in good contition. The actual time of transit could also be a factor. Eunice Wonnacott ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles wettergreen Subject: Home made extractors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The link below has a couple of places to get plans for home made honey extractors. http://www.villageearth.org/atnetwork/atsourcebook/chapters/beekeeping.htm Cheers, Chuck Wettergreen meadmaker beekeeper Geneva, IL USA _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: garden hive top and upper entrances To Mark Hubbard and fellow beekeepers, You asked about space at the top of the hive for ventilation and upper entrance. In general, an upper entrance is a good idea, as you say, for ventilation, and to provide access for bees. Ventilation is particularly beneficial in a humid climate. There are some drawbacks to an upper entrance, depending on your climate and the strength of the hive. 1. How big are the top openings? Anything bigger than 3/8 inch by 2 inches is probably more opening than needed. A great honey flow and a strong colony could use several upper entrances. 2. What is your location and climate? Damp climates seem to benefit from increased ventilation. In dry climates, the brood area may not have sufficient humidity if there is excessive ventilation. Also, dry cold windy climates (by cold I mean a week or more of below zero (F) weather) will benefit from less ventilation in the winter. 3. What is the strength of your colony? A strong colony can fight off wasps and robber bees that may invade through excess openings. For a weak to middling colony, restricting the entrances will not hurt the colony, and will help protect them from invaders. Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:10:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: foraging gene In-Reply-To: <200205081721.g48DmmmQ022696@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Genetic research in honey bees is the subject of a report in yesterday's New York Times (5-7-02, Science Times) that cites an article by Dr. Gene Robinson in the April 26 issue of Science. It says that "just before the transition (to forager), the activity of a gene aptly named the foraging gene increases sharply in parts of the bee brain that absorb and interpret visual and spatial information. The article is at www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07science/life/07BEE.html Perhaps someone can tell me how to access the Science article. Mea MEA McNeil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:50:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidpull@CS.COM Subject: Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all of you with neighbours, Recently two of my friends have been faced with the annual problem from neighbours. "Please keep your bees out of my fountain, fish pond, swimming pool or some other water feature." They are experienced beekeepers who keep a supply of water in the apiary all the year round. So far the requests have been polite but if someone is stung they may become hostile. As a beekeeper for some 65 years I am expected to know all the answers but I do not know the answer to this one. My bees have no neighbours so I have never been faced with this problem. Are there any attractants one might use to make the apiary water so desirable the bees will go nowhere else or is there some suitable repellent one can offer the neighbour? Plesse come up with some suggestions so that I can give them to my friends as evidence that they have done their best to find a solution. Thanking you in anticipation. Regards Sidpull@cs.com Writing from Hampshire, Southern England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: NY Times Article: Honeybee Shows a Little Gene Activity Goes Mile s and Miles Comments: cc: "mea@ONTHEFARM.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The article is at > www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07science/life/07BEE.html > Perhaps someone can tell me how to access the Science article. Mea Little appreciated in cyberspace is that copyright laws still apply. The NY Times owns the article. Last I checked, NY Times offers today's articles for free, thereafter one must pay to read. Full instructions can be found somewhere on the NY Times site. I once quoted a NYT article in a newsletter that went to press before I received written permission from the NYT to do so. I was sure they would grant permission, as I've never been denied when I request (something I always do). I was surprised though, when permission was contingent on paying $100 for the rights. At that point my options were to pay the bill or scrap the newsletters. I paid the bill. Most publications I have quoted grant rights freely, happy to receive credit for their article in my newsletter. NYT on the other hand doesn't need the publicity and would rather have the $$$. Aaron Morris - thinking copyrights are copyrights! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:52:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: foraging gene In-Reply-To: <200205081818.g48DmmpW022696@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The NYT site requires no cost registration. Thereafter, current articles (most all of the paper) is available to you. Science articles generally are listed as current for about a week. If the url you quoted is correct, you should be able to get to it by using your favorite browser. If not, visit www.nytimes.com, register and click on Science. On Wed, 8 May 2002, Mea McNeil wrote: > The article is at > www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07science/life/07BEE.html > Perhaps someone can tell me how to access the Science article. Mea --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Coumaphos resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I AM BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND WHY BEES ARE BECOMING RESISTANT. I SPOKE TO AN OLDER GENTLEMAN AT AN AUCTION I ATTENDED LAST WEDNESDAY(MAY 1). THERE WAS BEEKEEPING EQUIPMENT AT THE AUCTION-THE REASON I ATTENDED. WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT TREATING FOR MITES. I TOLD HIM I TREATED LATE FALL WITH APISTAN. THAT THERE WAS USUALLY AT LEAST ONE DAY AT THE END OF THE 6 WEEK TIME LIMIT THAT WAS WARM ENOUGH TO GO IN AND REMOVE THE STRIPS. HE SAID HE ALWAYS LEFT HIS IN UNTIL SPRING AND ASKED WHY THEY HAD TO BE REMOVED AFTER 6 WEEKS. I EXPLAINED. PERHAPS MORE THAN INSTRUCTIONS NEED TO BE ON THE PACKAGING. PERHAPS THE WHYS NOT JUST THE HOWS NEED TO BE ADDED. COLEENE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 23:01:14 +0100 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: foraging gene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mea and All > Perhaps someone can tell me how to access the Science article. Mea ..... and ..... > NYT on the other hand doesn't need the publicity and would rather have the $$$. > Aaron Morris .... thinking just a little bit too much about copyright I reckon! The NYT have a little bit of a cheek if they are asking for payment for access to the full article. They are only quoting an article in Science (abstract also available for no-cost registration), written by some scientists (who, of course, make no financial gain at all from the whole thing). See the abstract for free here after registering: http://www.sciencemag.org/ The full article will cost you $5 online. Otherwise, your nearest university/college library is quite likely to have Science .... or, if you are really keen, broke and a little bit lucky, asking the authors (address in the Science article) may elicit a free reprint through the mail. And for those interested (paraphrasing breaks no copyright), the gene is one already known to influence foraging in the fruit fly. It codes for a protein kinase, a class of gene known to be important in the regulation of sets of other genes. Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 17:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Home made extractors. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELLO ALL, THIS REMINDED ME, I HAVE A 2 FRAME GALVANIZED EXTRACTOR THAT I WILL GIVE AWAY TO WHOEVER WANTS IT AND IS WILLING TO PAY SHIPPING. WITH A LITTLE CLEANING AND FOOD GRADE EPOXY IT WILL WORK OK. IT NEEDS A GATE AND A CRANK. EVERYTHING ELSE SEEMS TO BE IN GOOD WORKING ORDER. I USED A SIMILAR ONE WHEN I ONLY HAD 2 HIVES. I SUPPOSE THE COMPONENTS COULD BE USED TO FABRICATE ANOTHER EXTRACTOR OUT OF FOOD GRADE MATERIALS. COLEENE CENTRAL LOWER MICHIGAN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sid, You can scent a water source with something like anise extract to help = orient the bees to it but adding a repellent to the source where they are = unwelcome might work better. Try almond extract as a repellent and it = shouldn't take very much. Let us know if it works. I have had folks try almond extract added to water in a small garden type = sprayer and sprayed around and in a swimming pool say it worked for them = so give it a try and let us know how well it works. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:39:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Benson Subject: Bees on the landing board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have a (hopefully) quick question: I have noticed that the bees hanging out on the front of the hive and hive stand are lining up, and "scrubbing" back and forth. They move their front pair of legs side to side every time they move forward. It is like they are line dancing. I have not noticed this behavior before. There is a pretty good flow on here in SC - and the boxes are full of bees (I need to get them some more room) but as of 2 days ago there were no queen cells. Am I missing some pre-swarming thing? Keith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 19:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy & Dave Subject: Re: Odd Bee Statistics (Sensationalism) Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > Moreover, the obvious lack of truth in such numbers << as they are stated >> > has never, in the least, discouraged others from repeating such tomfoolery > as absolute truth to an appreciative and gullible audience. Allen and other friends: You betcha! I have to agree with you (surprise to all - ;o} ), but only to an extent. Perhaps your use of the term "as absolute truth", may assume a lack of professionalism and or maybe even honor by the presenter. To this discussion, I would respectfully offer: As a beekeeper, and a profound collector of tidbits and trivia, I would suggest to you that the use of sensationalism may be appropriate in some instances. (Is she daft?) As beekeepers, we are aware that the statistic stated could be misconstrued as an all encompassing fact. We, most of us, have learned that most everything, in nature, is dependant upon many things. I don't think the "statistic" would ever be used at any beekeeper's meeting or seminar. If it was, I am sure that it would quickly be de-bunked or, at least, qualified. However, in this time, in this state, in this county, we need more beekeepers, and many more bees. If we continue to lose our bees due to indiscriminate insect spraying, or even just a lack of information about their benefits, we will have lost, for our children, those memories we so cherish. Especially, we need more people, neighbors, citizenry, children, pastors, ..., to be concerned about our bees and the other pollinators. If the only way I can grab their attention is to repeat a "questionable statistic", which may cause their eyebrows to raise, I will definitely use it. Of course, I would always include any appropriate qualifiers, but I would not hesitate to use it. As a retired paralegal of 25 years whose specialty was research and writing, I am well-versed in the use of may, perhaps, could, and should as opposed to will, shall, and other absolute words. We have been doing school presentations for the past month, with about 6 more left to do this school year. I am so very proud of the questions posed by the children (we offer a simple bee-related souvenir to any child who can stump us with a question. The qualifier on the question is that it must be related to something we have said during the presentation). It would be easy to cheat and answer every question, including those we don't know, because none of those present would know any different. Except us. Honesty in bee presentations is essential. Caring about the bees is apparent. I believe the use of sensationalistic type quasi-statistics is acceptable IN THE CONTEXT. As with the jack-ass, first you have to get his attention. As George, and even Andy, are known - get their attention, make them angry, make them think, but, above all, make them care. As an aside, I still believe my Dave when he says ..there are no snakes in there, or .. that those bugs never bite, or .. it's not that high.. perhaps gullible, but appreciating that I would never have gone in there, or looked at that bug, or climbed that tower, had he not "stretched the truth". I am always ready to smile and laugh at my own stupidity, but will never forgive those who refuse me the opportunity to discover my own "real" fact. If I were not told the "unreal fact" I would never have done the research to disprove it. Judy in Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 19:50:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Bees on the landing board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The dance when all together is a swarm sign. If it is split into two different directions the swarm is not united to one spot yet. Three steps forward and three steps backward and the total group together means swarming is all ready scouting for location. Michael Housel Orlandobee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 19:27:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope your friends are NOT using this clear drinking water! Bees do NOT like clean water! There are no minerals or salts in nice clean water. As bad as it sounds, any observant beekeeper knows that the nasty, dirty, area around a dairy barn or a horse barn is a favorite place for bees to get water. Right after a rain, the water settles in little puddles of animal foot prints. ONCE bees start visiting a neighbor's pond or swimming pool, it is sheer "hell" to break that up. This is why it is so important that bees be "trained" to a particular water source starting BACK IN COLD WEATHER, not in the springtime! I hope I have helped. George W. Imirie Starting my 70 th year of beekeeping in Maryland Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > To all of you with neighbours, > Recently two of my > friends have been faced with the annual problem from > neighbours. "Please keep your bees out of my fountain, fish > pond, swimming pool or some other water feature." Breaking the bees of this can be a little hard. I have heard of putting entrance feeders on hives containing only water as a method of getting the bees to stop visiting other sources. As George mentioned, bees often like water that we would find rather offensive. Bees also use a lot of water so a small source will be used up pretty fast. If the person is willing to work with your friends (does not hurt to ask) allowing the source to go dry for a few days can help changes the bees foraging habits. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:26:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Irish Beekeeping Course - detailed timetable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The detailed timetable for the Irish Beekeeping Course at Gormanston, Ireland is now posted on the Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations website at www.irishbeekeeping.ie Click on 'Access the site', click on 'Gormanston Beekeeping Course' and click on 'Detailed Timetable' This is the best program ever, and we look forward to many visitors from abroad. Full details of how to book the course are also shown. We look forward to meeting you at Gormanston. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bees on the landing board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The dance when all together is a swarm sign. If it is > split into two different directions the swarm is not united > to one spot yet. Three steps forward and three steps > backward and the total group together means swarming > is all ready scouting for location. When I read the original query I thought, "There's the annual question about washboarding" and was going to zip off the usual "Check the archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l use Using "Washboarding" as a target will give 15 hits http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=washboarding&s=&f=&a=& b= Then I read Michael Housel's reply: > The dance when all together is a swarm sign. If it is > split into two different directions the swarm is not united > to one spot yet. Three steps forward and three steps > backward and the total group together means swarming > is all ready scouting for location. And thought BS!! How did that get approved!? I've never seen anything stating Washboarding was associated with swarming. It made me wish I had fired off the "Check the archives!" response sooner. Then I began to wonder if A) Michael was pulling our collective leg or B) perhaps he has noticed something I (we?) do not. I'm inclined towards my first thoughts, but will not be so hasty. I have never seen washboarding in hives with small populations, nor have I noticed it at times of the season when bees aren't also likely to swarm. But I have never associated washboarding with swarming and in fact have learned not to be concerned, just entertained when I see washboarding. Will anyone else back up the assertion that washboarding is indicative of swarming? As far as 3 steps forward, 3 step backwards, is that a dance specific to Florida? I think the New York style is three steps forward, three backwards, and then a quick cha, cha, cha to the left! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:43:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Bees on the landing board In-Reply-To: <200205091305.g49CAdaq024693@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Will anyone else back up the assertion that washboarding is indicative of > swarming? As far as 3 steps forward, 3 step backwards, is that a dance > specific to Florida? I think the New York style is three steps forward, > three backwards, and then a quick cha, cha, cha to the left! I can add only this: I started two colonies from nucs last year and saw plenty of washboarding during the summer. I did not have any swarming, nor any swarm cells. That doesn't mean that washboarding couldn't be a precursor to swarming of course, and the washboarding that I observed was pretty much every bee for herself, not line dancing. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:46:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Bees on the landing board In-Reply-To: <200205091305.g49CAdaq024693@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > And thought BS!! How did that get approved!? It isn't clear to me if there is a joke in there. Is it the policy of this list's moderators to approve or reject messages based on whether they believe the contents to be true? I am hoping that the answer is "No!" Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (823215E2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I received notice that someone received a file attachment appearing to come from BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu that contained a virus. BEE-L will not distribute file attachments. First, LISTSERV does not support binary distribution and second, the moderators will not approve submissions with attachments. If one EVER receives a file attachment purported to be from BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu, IT IS A HOAX and the file with attachment should be deleted immediately and without question. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:15:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Viruses and Meta Discussions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I received notice that someone received a file attachment appearing to come > from BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu that contained a virus. > BEE-L will not distribute file attachments... > If one EVER receives a file attachment purported to be from > BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu, IT IS A HOAX and the file with attachment > should be deleted immediately and without question. Although these are normally 'closed' topics, and not normally presented to the list, since we have opened the topic let me, speaking as just one moderator or several, make several comments that may be helpful: First, let me add to Aaron's comments that if you receive a message form BEE-L that is bigger than about 25 KB, consider that it is very likely not from BEE-L and that the headers have been forged by one of the clever viruses out there. Many virus emails that use bogus 'from' lines are in the size range from 100 KB to 175 KB and that characteristic alone should be a warning to look before opening. I might (strongly) suggest that members consider obtaining and using MailWasher, available at http://www.mailwasher.net/ or a similar freeware email previewer that permits previewing and deleting and bouncing SPAM or viruses while still on your ISP's server, before downloading into your normal email reader. This is in addition to a good firewall and a good, up-to-date virus checker as recommended in more detail in our periodic post. And from another writer... > It isn't clear to me if there is a joke in there. Is it the policy of this > list's moderators to approve or reject messages based on whether they > believe the contents to be true? I am hoping that the answer is "No!" To answer the above and other unspoken questions, the moderators do exercise some judgement in selecting articles and favour those that appear to have potential to contribute to intelligent discussion. Many posts that have the best potential may fly directly in the face of conventional wisdom or what we personally believe, but if they fit our guidelines, we approve them. Even if the only apparent virtue of a particular post is novelty, it will pass if it meets the guidelines. Aaron questioned in his mind whether the recent washboarding thread had merit since it is a common, repetitive question and thus answerable from the archives. I saw merit in it due to the novelty aspect and the fact that it was seasonally interesting. Moreover a good explanation has never been proposed to my knowledge. Although we don't want to become a beginner Q&A list, we do want to cover the whole range of bee experience. We are often surprised at the new insight that comes from examining old and basic questions. If a writer is merely repeating something that has been said, and said well recently, unless there is some novel aspect, that post may not find a sponsor to approve it. Topics that have been covered in the past are often permitted to be presented again, but in the hopes that something new will emerge, or because it is a seasonal topic that is in season. We are, however in the lookout for trolls and sockpuppets or those who would flood the list with one point of view. If we see an preponderance of posts favouring one point of view and a shortage of posts supporting the other side, we tend to throttle back or encourage as appropriate to keep a civil and balanced debate, or even write an argument that supports the losing side, just to even things out. As for rejecting articles on the basis of whether we believe the contents to be true, I personally try not to reject anything that has even a glimmer of plausibility. We are often surprised to learn that what we have believed is either wrong, or not universally true. Only by exposing new and seemingly ludicrous ideas can we learn. This letter of explanation and comment is not intended to open the floodgates to all manner of comment and opinion, but merely to inform and also to encourage members to read the periodic post each time. Normally, we do not discuss either viruses or the way the BEE-L is operated on BEE-L itself, since we are here to discuss bees and beekeeping, and such discussions can quickly ruin a list. Such matters are dealt with by our info page at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/, our periodic post, and by polite private email exchanged with one or all moderators. We are interested in constructive comments and nothing is cast in stone, but BEE-L is not a public forum, but rather an open private list that has criteria for acceptable posts. The main criterion is that at least one of several diverse moderators has to independently decide that any post to the list has some merit, is on-topic, is well-composed, non-inflammatory, and is of interest to a significant number of our members. We try to err on the side of generosity. By the act of participating, however all members indicate acceptance that they have read the guidelines and welcome messages, and that in case of disagreement on how the list is run, the list owner (Aaron) has the final say. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 19:49:34 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Please keep your bees out of my fountain, > fish pond, swimming pool or some other water feature." A suburban beekeeper requested my help with a similar situation. I stopped at the hardware store along the way, and purchased a few of the cheapest plastic drop cloths they had. (Under a buck each.) The problematic water source was a hot-tub. We covered the hot tub with the plastic, and tied it down around the edges with a clothesline looped around the entire unit, thus creating a 100% bee-proof seal. (The beekeeper also provided a few pans filled with pebbles and water near his hives as a diversion.) The owners of the hot-tub did not mind this, as they had no intention of using the hot-tub until it was bee-free. While bees continued to investigate the hot-tub area for a few days, they soon gave up, and no bees were noted for three days, at which point the plastic was removed, and the hot tub was declared "open for business" again. Now, we could have placed the alternative water source near the hot tub, and then slowly moved it away to more quickly get the bees to move, but this approach was rejected as "attracting MORE bees to the neighbor's yard", which was clearly a non-goal. A good "demo" to calm fears is to temporarily remove the alternative watering station once it has attracted a following, put some water (better yet, sugar water) in one's palm, and hold your hand steady, palm up, exactly where the alternative watering station was located. One can then show the frightened neighbors that foraging bees are no threat at all, to the point that anyone can have them "eating out of their hand", even a child. Kids love the trick, and beg to "be next". The risk of one getting stung is nearly nil, as long as no one is inclined to close their fist on a handful of bees. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:49:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham & Annie Law Subject: Improved OMF floor design? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Much discussion on OMF's recently. If you are considering using one I = have just added a page to my site dedicated to a design that IMHO is = better than most. check out: = http://www.gandboss.demon.co.uk/BeeStuff/KisOMF/KIS_OMF.htm cheers Graham Cheers Graham &/or Annie ~~~~~~ Graham & Annie Law Email: GandA@gandboss.demon.co.uk Web: www.gandboss.demon.co.uk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 03:01:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Bees on the landing board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/9/02 9:06:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: > I have always understood that the beehive is the Bee Seat. It is the display of papers in hand that will give you "Honeybee, The Understanding". When you have sat on a full hive teaching others one learns not to dance with the bees, to tell the difference in the chorus of sounds, smell the sweetness from only the perfect million flowers, and never past odor on the front porch, as the bees do. Bees will line up at even spacing just above the entrance to dance. They are cleaning the entrance of funGus or discusSing the sWarming to a new home. When you have two separate but even moves the group has not decided on the same area to swarm to. When the group units in dance they will leave shortly. My son has won National Ballroom Dancing and can do a winning copy. fired off the "Check the archives!" response When you teach thousands of kids in a couple of days the questions will always stump one. I have read my collection of magazines back to 1950 and I can't remember who, what, or where I was taught the dance. Most of the folks that I knew have pasted on (bees too) and I am not sure who it was anyhow. As far as the questions I have gotten back to the class teachers with the answers. I have taken 7 hives and split them into 132 nucs since the middle of Feb,2002. with no chemicals used. I have loses but the 132 looks like they will hold and will be split until 300 by fall. The honey that I extracted is the best I have ever seen and they retain there memory to come back for more. If you listen to the hive when you open the lid the chorus sound in a roar is a stress problem that needs to be checked out closely. The skitsofranic[sp] queens will toot or quack to let you know you just made her day. An interview with a directional microphone will let you learn from the bee dance buzzes inside the observational hives. Even the bee in your face has a different tune then the other just flying around you. I am in many hives and everyday I learn something else. And where did Noak keep his bees? Oh yes it was in the Arc Hives. After the last 48 hours straight in the hives it is a good night. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:25:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: Re: Odd Bee Statistics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Curtis asked some back-up for the assertion that in their lifetime a worker will produce about 1/12 of a teaspoon of honey, got some piece of an answer from Jerry, and both got coldly drenched by George and Allen. While I totally agree with George and Allen's concepts about the impossibility to answer such question, I think that a more or less relevant estimate is possible, and the back up of such an estimate interests me. Sure, we know that all men do not weight the same, but saying that all men weight about 80 pounds (40 kg) is a definitively better assertion than saying that all men weight 800 pounds, or 8000 pounds. No need for accuracy and dead-straight statistics here :-). So, let's turn the question in this way: How much honey could a worker possibly haul in its lifetime? A) 1 kg? B) 1 pound? C) 1/12 teasponn? D) 1 g? E) other:... Check the most relevant answer and please give some back up for your assertion. Vanessa Stat' are part of my job. Abuse of numbers is my sport and I am paid for that! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:40:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (823215E2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > I received notice that someone received a file attachment appearing to come > from BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu that contained a virus. The email is not originating from the BeeL The virus is variant of the Klez virus and captures email addresses from the infected computer and sends email out as if they are coming from the captured address and not the infected computer. So someone who has the BeeL address in their computer is sending out email as if it was coming from the BeeL to others in their address book. Some times the subject line is obvious that it is a false email, such as Sexy Ladies as the subject and the BeeL as the sender. But more are returned mail messages or other more plausible subjects. There are ways to see where it is actually coming from, if you know how to read headers. The virus is a bad one and will destroy files on your computer. As in all cases, it is easily stopped if you have a virus checker and keep it current, a firewall such as zone alarm, and never open attachments. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Odd Bee Statistics In-Reply-To: <200205101231.g4ACMWX4028707@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Men in your country must be quite small.. Perhaps "the average man weighs 180 lb" would be somewhat closer the "the average bee gathers 1/12 tsp honey in a lifetime". And even that would be quite light for the newer, bigger, super-sized America! K Oland -----Original Message----- From: Vanessa de Behr ... all men weight about 80 pounds (40 kg) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:59:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Opinions expressed on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A recent post on BEE-L outlined a problem with delivery of bees from a supplier and difficulty in getting compensation. The name of a supplier was given. Our policy on BEE-L is to present fair and balanced comment and we do not wish to become a forum for airing grievances against suppliers. These matters are best taken up in private directly with party involved. We would ask members to please avoid bringing commercial disputes to this list, beyond issuing general warnings where appropriate, and without identifying the parties involved. We would also ask members to independently check the veracity of any statements read on this list, and to decide for themselves the suitability of any information they receive here. Opinions expressed on BEE-L are solely those of the writers of individual articles and do not necessarily reflect those of the list owner, the moderators or the University at Albany. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 21:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Odd Bee Statistics and Their Use in Education MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought this year that I might change the content of my bee presentation to include a bit of role playing, and to that end I sought to see what kinds of numbers I might use to create some "props". After looking at the 1/12 teaspoon for a while I thought that would translate into about 800 "bee-lives" for a pound of honey, at average density. Alternatively, I show the children a cube of lucite (clear plastic) that has the volume of one teaspoon, and say that it would take about a dozen bees to produce that much honey. A crude estimate, perhaps, but the kids begin to see that it is important to focus on the whole colony, not just to talk about a single bee. Using the crude number for the weight of an "average" bee, that means bees can produce roughly 5 or six times their weight in honey. Using these props and a few others, I try to show the kids see what a bee's life is like. I divide them into 6 groups, and using rather crude division of the life cycle into 6 equal segments, the six groups rotate through: egg and larva capped brood, metamorphosis and emergence cleaning and feeding comb building and food storage guarding foraging Each group of children starts at a single point in the cycle, and they rotate through each of the stages. I play some "flight of the bumblebee", then some Klezmer music as the foragers return to the hive and do a dance to show the guard bees (the next foragers) where the best nectar is. My objective is using these crude figures is primarily to show how structured a colony is, and that honey production is a group effort. Also important is the point that although there is a "queen", bees should not be anthropomorphized.....they are not "flying little people", but insects that do wonderous things, as they have been doing for thousands of years. I expect there is a great deal of "slop" in this artful use of math, but I don't present it as science so much as I use it to support an overall view of a colony and something quite sophisticated. I want they to think of the colony the next time they see a honey bee on some dandelions in the playground. Any suggestions to further this end would bee much appreciated. /Curtis Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 00:39:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Resistance to Coumaphos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I read recently that three states in the USA now report resistance to Coumaphos. In one case if memory serves me correctly, the efficiency of Coumaphos was down to 19%. Where now stands Apistan in the USA generally - I presume that in the three states concerned that resistance to Apistan forced them into using Coumaphos. What do we do when Coumaphos resistance occurs since we are using our most powerful weapon? Do we go back to Apistan, or is Apistan still useless, or is IPM the only answer? And what becomes of beekeepers who cannot find/afford the labour/skill to implement IPM? And is it true that it is illegal, in states which have approved Coumaphos, to sell section honey from hives treated with Coumaphos? I am trying to equip myself with as much information on this as I can, as regretfully what is happening in the USA today will be happening in my hives maybe sooner that we think. All questions! - answers most appreciated. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:17:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. My friend bought a package plus an overwintered hive with lots of left over honey. I helped him move four frames of honey into the package hive for starter food, replacing them with wood frames with plastic foundation. The package bees drew their plastic foundation out just fine but the old hive bees did a funny thing. They started drawing comb in a few patches and then continued building comb down from that start but hanging free of the foundation, just as if they were in a wall. Is this familiar to anyone? Any suggestions? Replace those frames with wax foundation? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:45:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S D Subject: "Washboarding" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding the recent discussion of the "washboarding" behavior of bees-- I know this is a whimsical idea, but to me the washboarding movements resemble the motions carried out by the bees when they are gathering pollen from a blossom. I wondered if, similar to the short "training flights" of young bees next to the hive to (presumably) exercise their wings and practice their visual skills, the washboarding is an exercise or precursor of some sort by young bees in response to their developing pollen gathering instinct. Steve D Portales, New Mexico, US Top Bar Hive: http://www.xscd.com/tbh/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:21:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mette og Arne Subject: Danish bee keeper asks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi , we=B4re(some beekeepers)) in Denmark(Europe) having discussions = regarding pros and cons with plastic frames(foundation or full). Some issues are : Cleaning : how difficult or easy compared to melting vax eg. Yield : is there a higher yield on plastic frames than on vax frames = ?(under same circumstances) Work : does using plastic frames mean more "effective" beekeeping ? Varroa eg. : any difference on plastic compared to vax ? Costs : any one having compared costs(%) between a plastic and a vax = driven bee yard ? Any experiences or "research" on the subject are velcome. Best regards Arne Haugaard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 21:31:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Help Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: James Fischer To: Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 6:49 PM Subject: Re: Help Hello Jim and All, Jim wrote: > The problematic water source was a hot-tub. The two bee problems I hear about the most are the *watering hole* and the *cracked corn* problem. I always try to make a effort to solve the problem (however small) and at least show compassion for those people which feel intruded upon by their fellow inhabitants of mother earth. Truth is most water problems go away when the nectar flow starts as bees use water from drying nectar instead of from the *watering hole*. I can always tell a nectar flow by checking the bees *watering hole* for the absence of bees. Bees going through *cracked corn* for protein always ends with the first fresh pollen. Many beekeepers give themselves a pat on the back when Mother Nature is really the problem solver . Jims method of solving the hot tub problem is not new but my bees have longer memories than three days it seems. I remember a swimming pool problem a few years ago. I put a little cake pan of water out (with a float of course) to stop 24 strong hives with population of 50-60,000 bees each from getting water at his pool about a quarter mile away. The bees had a pond about 50 feet from the hives. The owner looked skeptical as he looked down at the small cake pan but the beekeeper always knows best. Right! but I assured the owner the problem would be solved within a week. The honey flow started a couple days later (which I knew it would) and the problem was solved. Seems the barefoot pool owner had stepped on one of my bees and been zapped. Either the pool owner is watching the placement of his feet or the bees have stopped using his pool as a water source as I have not had a water complaint from him in a couple years. I had a complaint this spring from a farmer about my bees stealing the powdered cracked corn from his chickens. I told him to go out and look as I was sure his chickens were eating my bees. When he called me back (about five minutes) and said his chickens were indeed feeding on my bees I told him a story which almost brought him to tears. Those poor bees were risking their very lives to get feed to prevent starvation of their baby bees. The farmer said the bees could use all the protein they needed and he was going to put out a pan especially for the bees outside the chicken pen. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. And then there was the story of the farmer which was going to burn my hives. The story of the farmer which said he was going to push a hive over every hour till the hives were moved. I live a hour and a half away. He hung up on me on the phone. He stopped after the third hive as both his eyes were swollen shut his wife said. He was upset as he said one of my truck tires took out a row of seeded corn. I politely told him I was sorry and offered to pay for the damage. I had came in and out in the middle of the night. His wife said when she called not to move the hives as she needed the honey I give her and she had the last word around her house. I did have to go and set up four hives as one he pushed over hit another hive. The farmer and I are still friends but we have NEVER spoke of the *hive rage* incident. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 05:04:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM OWENS Subject: home made extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Look in the Beesource.com web page under "Plans Build It". They have plans for just about everything. Billy Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:08:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chances are the small amount of wax was missing, they then build comb that is not attached to the foundation. If you have a lot of this you may need to replace with wax foundation. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 06:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gordon Zahorik Subject: Plastic Foundation Dan, I use plastic foundation and the only time I have had that happen to me is when I tried a 9 frame hive. I wrote it off to there being too much space between the frames. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Comb Honey and Coumophous Tom asked "And is it true that it is illegal, in states which have approved Coumaphos, to sell section honey from hives treated with Coumaphos?" No, it is not true...and never has been true. This misunderstanding grew out of a year 2000 label restriction (in the US, the label for coumophous is only good for one year, and is specific to that year) that said (in effect) "If you treat with Coumophous in the Spring, you cannot produce comb honey from that hive during year 2000". As it turned out, our regulatory authority was not happy with the label restriction, but Bayer wanted the restriction "just in case". The regulators agreed, providing Bayer did tests during 2000 to determine if the restriction was necessary. The tests showed that no such restriction was necessary, and the restriction was dropped in 2001 and is also not there in 2002. As far as Apistan/Coumophous resistance is concerned...most hobbyists; meaning most beekeepers, should be freezing drone brood 3-5 times during the summer and avoiding any chemical treatment. Two frames per hive will keep Varroa at absolute minimum levels if sealed drone brood is frozen 3-5 times. The Spring freezing (NOW!) is most important. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:25:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard that the new farm bill passed. Were the labs saved. I have been out of the loop for a while and am just now getting to start reading again. Thanks Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:51:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Natural Varroa Control in Africa? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received the following request from a new beekeeper in Morocco for = help on varroa control: <> Since my French is very rusty, I went to Babelfish for this (rough) = translation: << Mister I am a bee-keeper debutant,et I have quellque questions has to = pose to you. 1:qu they are the natural methods cause a drop in the = pressure of varroa. 2:est what can controls the varroa without using the = acaracide. 3:qu ' they are the recomondations for the formic:acide = treatment and the oxalic acid: ** methodology: - applications by sugar = degouttements(soulition) - to sprinkle directly (only with water). - = impergnes of the pieces of wood in the acid. (compose of solution + = quantity of solution + moment of traitement+remarque.). 4:qu they are = produced which: * stimulating the laying at the queen. * which = encourages with the nourrissement. (compose of solution + quantity of = solution + moment of traitement+remarque.). 5:est what I can have a = calendrie breeding. 6:une documentation on this subject. in waiting of = your answer want agreer Mister the insurance of my consideration = distinguees.>> I don't know much about oxalic or formic acid as a treatment. I was = going to suggest drone trapping, but this gentleman probably doesn't use = foundation, or perhaps could not obtain drone sized foundation. This is = what I was thinking to do with my own bees this coming year. If anyone else has comments, I will forward them to him. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 23:07:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: KATHY PRESLEY Subject: save these bees! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello All My brother who lives in Birmingham Alabama (USA) has had a swarm of honeybees move into the bushes outside his house. He is concerned that his kids will get stung and he himself has already gotten stung snooping around them. That doesn't sound like a swarm to me! I live in a neighboring state but I don't think I have enough experience as a beekeeper to deal with these bees. If anyone would like to have some free bees, please call Jimmy Traylor at 205-678-2460. thank you Kathy Presley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 23:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <200205110231.g4B1uNYE019021@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dan Hendricks wrote: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:17:37 -0700 > Subject: Plastic foundation > > They started drawing comb in a few patches and then continued > building comb down from that start but hanging free of the > foundation. Is this familiar to anyone? I think the problem here is that the new frames with foundation were not placed properly. Foundation frames be spaced so the frame shoulders are tightly together. As the foundation is drawn, the shoulders shoiuld be pushed apart so that there is about an eighth of an inch separating them. If not done in this manner one frequently finds what happened here, and it may become a problem getting it reconstructed properly. Easy to prevent, very annoying to correct. Never space the foundation (ten frames, NEVER nine) equally across the super or brood box prior to being drawn out at least half way. This will prevent the problem. To Kathy Pressly: I will call your brother in Birmingham about his swarm in the morning. Bob Barnett Birmingham ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:43:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Resistance to Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom, Most researchers will not touch this post . I will give you my opinions and thoughts but am only a informed beekeeper. Tom wrote: > I read recently that three states in the USA now report resistance to > Coumaphos. In one case if memory serves me correctly, the efficiency of > Coumaphos was down to 19%. Actually it was the opinion of the inspectors aaat the Apiary inspectors meeting in Georgia that the bees in this instance came from a illigal use of coumaphos aand not from the use of Checkmite as the beekeeper claims. I agree with the opinion of the USDA apiary inspectors. In my opinion a illegal use of coumaphos was involved creating the resistance. Trying to save money cost the commercial beekeeper most of his hives and caused the rest of us early problems with coumaphos resistant mites. At this time I only express my opinion and so far to my knowledge the USDA can not prove a illigal use was done. Where now stands Apistan in the USA generally - I There are areas which are still using Apistan and reporting control. There are however areas of the U.S. in which you can put in as many Apistan strips as you want. Four to a hive body have been told to me and varroa numbers rise in testing instead of go down. Tom wrote: > presume that in the three states concerned that resistance to Apistan forced > them into using Coumaphos. Some beekeepers simply ask what other beekeepers are using. Buy the strips and use. Some other beekeepers monitor mites loads, use IPm methods and check for resistance and if methods are working. bad advice on treatments is around. I suspect the beekeeper with the coumaphos resistant mites was given bad advice and now has to pay for listening to a fellow beekeeper instead of his state bee inspector. What do we do when Coumaphos resistance occurs > since we are using our most powerful weapon? There are other methods of controlling varroa but none as easy for the large beekeeper to use as Apistan or Checkmite. Do we go back to Apistan, or is > Apistan still useless, or is IPM the only answer? Beekeepers need to know the varroa load in their hives and then do whatever works to reduce varroa load. The days of stopping by the bee supply house and picking up whatever the owner recommends is over. The bee supply houses will provide all the chemicals which are legal. All have got problems and might not work or they might work. Most be supply houses should not today guarantee any method will absolutely control varroa and should recommend testing before ,during and after a method is used. And what becomes of > beekeepers who cannot find/afford the labour/skill to implement IPM? They will in my opinion join the ranks of those beekeepers which have already been put out of beekeeping by varroa. All those reading this post using the illegal coumaphos which is only 1% instead of the 10% of Checkmite you are heading for trouble aand making problems for the rest of beekeepers. You have recieved bad information. 1% coumaphos is like a light slap in the face to varroa. Your friends which are telling you you can use Checkmite later if the 1% does not work are sadly misinformed. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 11:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Resistance to Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Sorry for the miss spelled words and not signing the last post. I made a rough draft of the post last night to look over this morning before sending. A family member sent the post. I do stand behind what was posted. I did not say the name of the illegal coumaphos on purpose. The chemical does NOT control varroa. The fine for its use is 10,000 U.S. $10,000 will buy quite a bit of Checkmite strips. Our local Bayer rep and I talk almost monthly about the growing problem. With Apistan the use of an alternative was illegal but different. Even the USDA used the alternative in testing and the alternative did not produce fast fluvalinate resistance as in the case of coumaphos because the percents were similar. In my area I tested every hive for varroa this spring. I did not use any treatment for varroa as per those test results. A REAL and valid saving of money. My fellow beekeepers put the strips in as they felt it was cheaper to install strips than test. My friends were relieved I found no coumaphos resistance varroa in my hives. Sadly my not finding coumaphos resistant mites DOES NOT mean they are not in their hives. Checkmite is still working for me BUT use only when needed. I found fluvalinate resistant varroa three years before the FIRST documented resistant varroa were found in Missouri. None of the other beekeepers were testing. . When 80 to 90% of their hives died over the winter they woke up but blammed the weather for their losses. I came through the same winter with less than 5 % losses. It is the OBLIGATION of each informed beekeeper on BEE-L to try and inform beekeepers which paths they cross that use of the 1% coumaphos solution does not work and can cause super resistant varroa resistant to most chemicals within two years. To those beekeepers which do not agree with me I will be around to post *I told you so later*. To the great group of U.S. apiary inspectors which allowed me to sit through their meeting in Savannah where the subject above was discussed I will post the above for you. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 21:58:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Coumaphos resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All and Bob Harrison and Lloyd Spear Thanks indeed for your observations on my post. Bob said >Most researchers will not touch this post . Have I stirred up a hornet's nest?! But what worries me about the entire varroa scene is that we are all fundamentally in the hands of the worst beekeeper. If a beekeeper chooses to take shortcuts and thereby causes resistant mites to appear sooner rather than later then that is it. We appear to have no answer to that. At the end of the day, beekeeping is a personalised activity. Nobody can say how I have handled my hives this afternoon, or what legal or illegal methods I have employed to maximise the honey production from those hives. And let us be quite blunt about this, if my livelihood is in producing honey, my attraction will be to my Profit and Loss Account and not to the possibility that I may cause resistant mites to appear. Bob wrote: >There are other methods of controlling varroa but none as easy for the large >beekeeper to use as Apistan or Checkmite. I believe that this is the 'Achilles Heel' of our approach to varroa. We have used these acaricides on an incremental basis - ignoring the fact that they have a relatively short effective life, and creating super varroa mites in the process. These acaricides are Profit and Loss driven, they are low in labour content and in skill content. And when the super mites are ahead of what we can throw at them then we are truly in a 'no win' situation. The replies to my post convince me at any rate, that the incremental chemical approach to varroa leads nowhere. Perhaps I have the advantage that my income is not depending on my hives, and in this I can sympathise with those beekeepers who are dependent on beekeeping for their income. We here in Ireland, as have our colleagues in New Zealand and I daresay Australia when varroa strikes, have the undoubted advantage of being able to learn from the unfortunate experiences of those countries who were stricken by varroa before we were. I sincerely hope that none of these countries latterly stricken by varroa will ever have beekeepers putting Coumaphos into their hives. Indeed Apistan or its near relative Bayvarol should also be assiduously avoided. Using IPM will indoubtedly cause us to have to work harder. But is the prize of clean hives and clean wax, as has occurred in Denmark not worth it? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 19:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Coumaphos resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and All,. > > Bob said >Most researchers will not touch this post . Most researchers will talk one on one but hate to be quoted unless they are trying to get information out. I get private emails all the time with information but with please do not say*I* told you. I respect their wishes or they would simply quit giving me information. I share information on Bee-L like we all do but need their input desperately to keep ahead of todays beekeeping problems. My apiary inspector friends in Florida have helped me greatly as things seem to happen in Florida first. Even those friends ponder how I seem to know things going on in Florida before the news is out. Hmmm. > But what worries me about the entire varroa scene is that we are all > fundamentally in the hands of the worst beekeeper. Nothing new here Tom. I have got a yard between two beekeepers which has been giving me problems ever since those two took up beekeeping. Before then the yard was one of my best . I once had a yard which always had AFB. Finnally a farmer told me about some old deadouts . I went back in the woods and sure enough about twenty abandoned hives loaded with AFB spores. Took a couple days to get everything burned but no more problems. Tom wrote: If a beekeeper chooses to take shortcuts and thereby causes resistant mites to appear sooner rather than later then that is it. If you look back through the posts I have done on Bee-L you will see I have said little about the use of fluvalinate other than Apistan. Did not effect me directly. The illegal use of 1% coumaphos is effecting us all. Bayer is in production of one million checkmite strips. Used wisely we might get far enough down the varroa road we can all get other measures in place before widespread resistance BUT as Tom points out one beekeeper has already created a huge amount of coumaphos resistant varroa with his acts AND spread those mites to three different areas. . > The replies to my post convince me at any rate, that the incremental > chemical approach to varroa leads nowhere. Pollination needs out weigh all other uses for the honeybee in the U.S.. Chemicals have done exactly what Dr. shiminuki and others have said they would 15-20 years ago. Fill the void till research provides us with a bee which will survive varroa. Chemicals have kept the commercial hives in the U.S. alive. I believe without chemicals being used the honeybee would only exist in areas of the world without varroa and in a few areas where bees seem to tolerate varroa. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 06:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Nectar and supplemental feeding In-Reply-To: <200205130317.g4D3DLWs014667@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do honeybees demonstrate a decided preference for natural sources (nectar) of glucose rather than sugar water feedings if given equal access to the food supplies? I guess that I am asking if a newly hived package of bees will ignore sugar water when, for example, white clover is blooming. Thanks. Gerald Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 01:58:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Lescord Subject: Drone foundation for Varroa control Some contributors to the list recommend freezing capped drone foundation four or five times during the course of a season. For a deep body hive, this seems like a significant investment of hive time and energy, but I assume offset by decrease Varroa infestation. Is the 90% reduction really observed? The method for freezing is to simply take capped brood, freeze it overnight, and then give it right back to the bees to clean out and prepare for the next freezing? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Chemicals & IPM In-Reply-To: <200205130401.g4D3Z9Xm014973@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5/13/02 12:00 AM, you wrote: >Do we go back to Apistan, or is Apistan still useless, or is IPM the only answer? Statements like this misrepresent the whole principle of IPM. IPM *does not mean* NO chemicals. IPM is *integrated* pest management. It *does not mean* use chemicals first, ask questions later. IPM means: try cultural controls first, like cleanliness, proper management, mechanical controls, etc. IPM means: evaluate the problem and develop a strategy. Try new things like drone brood trapping. IPM means: use chemicals if all else fails. Switch chemicals. Stay on top of the news. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Use of drone brood for varroa control Freezing capped drone brood is reported to be very effective in Varroa control. For this purpose, it would seem to be best to use foundation made specifically in drone size. This foundation is now sold by most or all US dealers. I freeze it for at least 24 hours, and probably an average of 3-4 days. Then I use the frozen frames to replace drone frames that I take from another hive. As to how effective it is in controlling Varroa, do the math. Assume 80% of foundress mites (females reproducing) choose drone brood and those that do produce 3 daughters. Assume the other 20% are in worker brood and produce 1.5 daughters. Work out the numbers (separately) over 120 days. Astounding? Note that an article by Tom Seeley in the June Bee Culture says that if you increase the amount of drone brood produced, you will decrease honey production. However, this is a big "if", as the comparison is with the amount of drone brood that would be produced with your present frames. Tom has documented that feral bees dedicate approximately 20% of their cells to drone production. Do your frames contain less than 20% drone cells? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:39:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Re Chemicals and IPM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Peter Borst is quite right when he draws my attention to what IPM is and what IPM is not. I suppose that we are short of a term to specify succinctly 'using treatments against varroa which do not include the use of Apistan, Bayvarol or Coumaphos' Could we settle for Non ABC Treatments (A Apistan, B Bayvarol C Coumaphos)? Thus we have: ABC Treatments. Non ABC treatments. IPM which include both of the above. (IPM = ABC + Non ABC) Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 05:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Bee research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a article that you might find interested. I wish they would spend as much on research for mites. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/13/science/13BEES.html?todaysheadlines preacher ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:12:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Use of drone brood for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLOYDSPEAR wrote: > > > > > Note that an article by Tom Seeley in the June Bee Culture says that if you > increase the amount of drone brood produced, you will decrease honey > production. However, this is a big "if", as the comparison is with the > amount of drone brood that would be produced with your present frames. Tom > has documented that feral bees dedicate approximately 20% of their cells to > drone production. Do your frames contain less than 20% drone cells? > > Hi Lloyd and All, The point of 20% of the cells in a hive are drone , is an important fact. Many new and even old beekeepers remove drone cells . only to have the bees continue to build more, to get the hive in balance.Don't fight nature.Drone brood is my window to Varroa. I take a cappings scracther and lift out capped drone brood and check for mites. Drone foundation would be a good tool for IPM. Best Regards Roy Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. US ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 11:17:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Use of drone brood for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd and All , I agree with everything Lloyd has posted but would remind hobby beekeepers of the importance of making a strict schedule of removing the drone brood and sticking to it. Get busy with summer activities and those same frames of all drone brood become sources of tremendious amounts of varroa. I would be interested to see how well a few Bee--L people do this year using Lloyds method. I would however do testing to determine the varroa load before starting and again in the fall. Any method of reducing varroa mite load is worthwhile BUT one must consider the time involved and the expense of the project unless beekeeping is a hobby. Typically hobbies cost us money to say nothing of the time spent on our hobbies. I think all ways of controlling varroa are worthwhile but I stand firmly behind our USDA researchers in their search for the bee which can *live with varroa*. Those same researchers told me ten years ago the project would take around 20 years. Instead they are close (in my opinion) in less than half the time. The future of the feral colonies in the U.S. is dependent on their research (which is threatened by loss of the Baton Rouge bee lab).. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I know many people have posted about all the feral colonies they are seeing. Many of those come from the huge amount of swarming from the huge numbers of colonies kept in the U.S.. Research has shown us that most colonies die after two years from varroa if not treated. There are exceptions as we all know but the exceptions are rare and not the rule. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:14:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee research In-Reply-To: <200205131424.g4DDWVao023547@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 05:44 AM 5/13/02 -0500, you wrote: Point of clarification: Defense Agencies (military) have no mission to protect bees against mites. Their mission is to protect lives. All of the funding for the bee work and detection of bombs, land mines, anthrax, etc. if from military dollars - not USDA. However, in the process, the military has made available a 1 acre TENT in which we have been looking at mating queens -- so that you could ensure European bees in AHB zones, preserve genetic traits, and there's an interest by a bee researcher to use the TENT to look at varroa distribution dynamics. In addition, the work described in the NY Times is producing new technologies that may eventually help reduce management costs and increase productivity for commercial beekeepers with bees distributed over hundred of miles and in several states. This work is also developing methods that may eventually improve pollination efficiency. Finally, all of this work is really critical to developing improved methods for looking at new generation pesticides and bee/agricultural crop protection from acts of terrorism. So, none of this would be done if it wasn't for defense support. Others are funded to look at mites, AHB, etc. In fact, there are established labs. Finally, the numbers cited in the article cover a whole array of studies involving other insects, etc. Only a small part of the whole program focused on bees. Mites, AHB, small hive beetle are immediate crisis problems. In the meantime, for the industry to grow and prosper, some new approaches are needed. So, although this work of using bees to save lives may not seem important to you if you don't live near a land mine field or in a city with roving bombers, ultimately we expect lessons learned from this to be essential to longer range applications for better bee management and productivity. Bottom line, its not a tradeoff of mites versus bombs. DARPA funds research aimed at national security and the protection of lives - not basic bee research. DARPA is the actual originator of the Internet and the Stealth bomber. They fund high risk research that may have big payoffs. They also fund for very short periods of time -- 3 years is about the length of a typical DARPA research project. That's about like saying, start from scratch and solve the mite problem in under 3 years. =20 Last time the press latched on to this topic, it was in the early conceptual stages. Its now showing real promise. In the meantime, I think you will begin to see payoffs to beekeeping itself. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 11:59:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: Nectar and supplemental feeding To Gerald Herrin and Fellow Beekeepers, You asked: if a newly hived >package of bees will ignore sugar water when, for example, white clover >is blooming. Gerald, feed your new package to get them up and going. Four to six weeks after installing a package of bees, the colony drops in population. I wondered if mine were having a disease problem. But the drop in population is from the lag time in brood production. It may take a week or more for the queen to start laying, then forty days for the new brood to become foragers. Feeding the new colony takes a lot of stress off them. They will still forage, and need to forage for pollen. But feed them syrup anyway. George Imirie writes in his Pink Pages to feed the new colony until next fall. Make sure that the bees are fed until they draw two deep boxes of comb (or 3 mediums) and have them filled with stores and brood. I have found times when my bees ignore the syrup, or take it slowly. I have to make sure the holes in the feeder are not plugged with sugar crystals or propolis. I found that my colonies take syrup slower than others on this list. They may prefer to forage. But feed them anyway. Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:14:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Use of drone brood for varroa control > I freeze it for at least 24 hours, and probably an average of 3-4 days. > Then I use the frozen frames to replace drone frames that I take from > another hive. Sounds like a good way to spread disease! Peter Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 11:59:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: Improved Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The information page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ has been improved a bit recently. Everything you need to know about BEE-L should be there. All active BEE-L members are asked to consult the information there before posting or replying to the list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:39:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Re Chemicals and IPM Tom writes I suppose that we are short of a term to specify succinctly 'using treatments against varroa which do not include the use of Apistan, Bayvarol or Coumaphos' reply: I would say "natural" or "non-chemical". I think this is what we all want, but if the only way to get it is to let the susceptible bees simply die, well -- that's a bitter pill to have to swallow. That's why a lot of people are hoping to *breed* better bees and use any and all means possible (IPM) to keep them alive in the meantime. Keep the faith!! pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:37:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > Bottom line, its not a tradeoff of mites versus bombs. DARPA funds > research aimed at national security and the protection of lives - not > basic bee research. DARPA is the actual originator of the Internet and > the Stealth bomber. They fund high risk research that may have big > payoffs. They also fund for very short periods of time -- 3 years is > about the length of a typical DARPA research project. That's about like > saying, start from scratch and solve the mite problem in > under 3 years. =20 > > Last time the press latched on to this topic, it was in the early > conceptual stages. Its now showing real promise. In the meantime, I > think you will begin to see payoffs to beekeeping itself. An excellent response. This is not an either/or thing. Research is just that. It might not lead to what is sought but find something entirely new. And often, in areas like defense and space, the fallout is greater to the private sector than either defense or space. There have been a limited number of articles or shows about DARPA, but what I have seen is that it is cutting edge research that often opens new areas that were never invisioned in the origional research. The return on investment by DARPA is fairly good for the kind of things they put money into. Happy to see that Jerry is getting some of it. Plus, as an interested party in the well being of the United States as well as bees, I appreciate the money that is spent by DARPA. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 20:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garret Martin Subject: Russian Queens By searching the archives I see that these little bugers have been talked about quite extensivly. However I could not find any reference to my problem. As you may notice by my tone in the first sentence I am losing respect for the Russian Queen. Acttually I have some animosity towards them! I requeen three strong hives this spring and not one of them was accepted. Being a little bullheaded I chose to try to force the issue with one hive. After it killed the first queen I waited 1.5 weeks and installed another that did not work. So I released the third one into a comb cage after which the bees chewed under the cage killing the queen. But not before she laid quite a number of eggs. Well I have one queen left and I have run out of ideas. Interestingly enough I also installed five 5lb.packages of Italians with Russian queens all were accepted and are doing quite well. So I am looking for some ideas as how to handle my last queen. Almost Queenless and pretty much broke. Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:23:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Re Chemicals and IPM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natural and non chemical? I would like to see and answer to put on the label. Pure Natural is for normally unheated above 100F degrees honey from the beekeeper. High filtered honey is not Non Chemical honey? I have never seen any information on the high filtered honey and the removal of Chemical? DOES IT REMOVE THE CHEMICALS? Non chemical bee hives are possible with our present understandings: Open floors, drone removal frames, ground chemical controls outside the hives, use of queen extruders under the brood just before honey flow build up, having enough nucs to add brood frames to production hives or replaceing loss queens or hives[above 40% replacement], and checking all hives weekly and removing beetle larvae[beetles start in a quarter coin size area]. Michael Housel Orlandobee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:47:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Use of drone brood for varroa control In-Reply-To: <200205131416.g4DDWVZg023547@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lloyd Spear wrote: "As to how effective it is in controlling Varroa, do the math. Assume 80% of foundress mites (females reproducing) choose drone brood and those that do produce 3 daughters. Assume the other 20% are in worker brood and produce 1.5 daughters. Work out the numbers (separately) over 120 days." This is a very interesting calculation that i have been thinking about doing but never gotten around to it. At least one parameter is missing, though. How often is one new generation of mites born? You also need to estimate how many percent of the total drone brood that one removed frame is. I'm sure this calculation has been done before. I just haven't seen it anywhere. Does anyone have it? I remove drone brood too, but in a slightly different way: When the first flow starts, a frame with a vertical divider in the middle (no foundation) is inserted in the outer part of the cluster. Ten days later, the bees will have build drone comb in the frames. I cut out one half. Another ten days later, i return and the bees will again have build drone comb in the part i cut out earlier. The half i saved will now be filled with capped drone brood. I cut this out and bring the wax home to freeze it. I continue this in ten day cycles for as long as the bees will build drone comb. Good things about this method: -the drone frame becomes a good status indication of the colony: 1. if the colony has swarm cells, a few of them will usually be found on the drone frame 2. building comb reduces swarm tendencies (this could be a myth) 3. if they don't build any comb, the colony is weak Not so good things about this method: 1. You have to cut out the drone brood on time, if you slip a few days and the drones start hatching, you get the opposite effect. You're a mite breeder 2. You end up with lots of drone brood! Don't even think about melting it in a solar wax melter. Some suggest burning it and i tried that, but it wasn't quite as flammable as one would want. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:30:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I requeen three strong hives this spring and not one of them was > accepted. Being a little bullheaded I chose to try to force the issue > with one hive. After it killed the first queen I waited 1.5 weeks and > installed another that did not work. So I released the third one into a > comb cage after which the bees chewed under the cage killing the queen. Large hives can be hard to requeen. If the new queen is not closely related to the hive, it can be tougher. The job can be made easier by moving the hive behind another so it loses its old bees -- the ones that make the requeening hard. A good honey flow helps too. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:36:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bumble Subject: Cupric Salts and Varroa Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A while ago we had a lecture at the bee club on the use of Neam oil in controlling varroa. During the course of the talk the man said that some of the most promising research seemed to lie in the area of medicating with copper salts. The report at www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/cupric_salts.pdf seems to give good information. Has anyone any experience or opinions on there use, or the reported information? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:53:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Chemicals and IPM In-Reply-To: <200205140401.g4E36KbO017864@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Michael Housel >Subject: Re: Re Chemicals and IPM > > Natural and non chemical? I would like to see and answer to put on >the label. Pure Natural is for normally unheated above 100F degrees honey >from the beekeeper. High filtered honey is not Non Chemical honey? I have >never seen any information on the high filtered honey and the removal of >Chemical? DOES IT REMOVE THE CHEMICALS? If you read the original post, we were talking about bee culture, not honey. Of course, if one uses a "natural" or "non-chemical" approach to keeping bees, one would hope that the honey would be free of chemicals. Unfortunately, our little friends pick up nastiness from the environment, which sometimes winds up in the honey. This is why so many "Organic Organizations" refuse to certify honey at all, regardless of the mode of bee culture (unfair, in my opinion). Be that as it may, I think most of us want to keep bees without using poisons inside the hive. Many of us got into beekeeping in the 70s during the heyday of the natural food movement. If you can keep your bees alive without chemicals, more power to you! I don't sell the stuff! But, I haven't found it that easy. And, no, filtering probably doesn't remove chemicals. I don't recall anyone saying that it does. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:38:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I set up about 15 nucs with Russian Queens this spring, all were accepted. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kevin Subject: Question about giong away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All. Pretty sure this is the first time I have written to the list, but have been lurking for some time now. Here is the situation. Big setup, so bear with me. I have a total of 37 hives in two seperate locations... 7 are colonies that were overwintered and have queens from last year, the other 30 are packages that were installed in April and are doing strong. Half are NWC and the other Italians. All started on drawn comb, all doing well and strong. I am located in Northern Illinois and both locations are on farms. Now... the stinger. I am in the Illinois National Guard, and have been ordered to duty and will deploy the first week of July. Happy to do my part, but in a dilemma as to what to do with the hives. There is a strong possiblity that I will be home in 4 months, or the end of October, however you look at it. By that time, the weather here has turned cold, but snow is not normal until November. So. What does the list think, or what is the opinion for hives that are in out apiaries, and are not tended to very often? Yes I do belong to a local bee club, and will address the group on Friday and ask for assistance... my wife has also taken to tending hives in a limited sort of way. ...Main question... what is the impact of placing mulitple drawn supers on hives at the same time? Is there a way that I should attempt this? Thanks, Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:39:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Natural Mite Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, Here is an example of what happens to me if I don't treat for mites: 15 good strong colonies were purchased in May from a reputable beekeeper. These were treated in 2000 with Apistan. In 2001 they received no chemicals. Half were put on screened bottoms, half were not. In August I did ether rolls. The numbers ranged from 2 to 27 (per 250 bees) but most were below 10. Supers were weighed. Spring honey crop was decent. No apparent correlation with screened bottoms. By September, only *four* hives were still normal strength. The rest were weak or very weak and most exhibited signs of advanced mite disease. The weak ones were all dead within a month and *not one* was strong enough to winter over. The whole apiary was folded. Moral: I would breed from the best, but they were all dead. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles wettergreen Subject: Bee article at Washington Post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There is an excellent article on the MSNBC website about bees, beekeeping, and the problems facing the industry. The article is at: http://www.msnbc.com/news/751797.asp Cheers, Chuck meadmaker beekeeper Geneva, IL _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:05:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Obituary for Earl Schaffer, beekeeper, Apalachian Trail pioneer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-1730228,00.html Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:56:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Question about giong away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kevin and all If you wish to stack three or four shallows on the tops of the hives, a double thickness of newspaper between each will allow them to occupy as many as they want. I have done this to hives that I robbed of brood to make up nucs, the hives were not tended regularly during the rest of the season. I cannot be certain there was no swarming, but I never noticed any. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:46:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Question about giong away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin wrote: > So. What does the list think, or what is the opinion for hives that are in > out apiaries, and are not tended to very often? Yes I do belong to a local > bee club, and will address the group on Friday and ask for assistance... my > wife has also taken to tending hives in a limited sort of way. I was incapacitated for a few months with inner ear disease and the bee club I belonged to did everything for me including spring and early summer management. I hope that your club members are as kind as were mine. You could also "lend" your bees to one of the club members and allow them to harvest the honey in payment for managing the hives. It seems that even if you stack supers, you are going to hit a wall in October with a bunch of hives with lots of supers that the bees have setup for over wintering. Plus, I would almost count on the queen having laid in the supers, because of the ebb and flow of nectar storage during the summer. In my opinion, you will come back to a mess unless you get help. Especially if they keep you an extra month or two, which is not out of the question. Been there, done that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:31:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Question about giong away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am in the Illinois National Guard, and have been ordered to duty and will > deploy the first week of July. Happy to do my part, but in a dilemma as to > what to do with the hives. There is a strong possiblity that I will be home > in 4 months... Another possibility is to split all the hives up into, say, four hives each, and leave them with enough room to go until fall. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:14:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Requeening ANY colony that has a lot of foraging age bees can be a problem and a new queen is killed. Requeening in the ABSENCE of a nectar flow is also a difficult problem. However, installing as new queen, Russian or any other European mellifera, is almost 100% successful when the new queen is installed in a colony of all nurse bees with open brood and during a nectar flow enhanced with 1:1sugar syrup. I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:15:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nectar and supplemental feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerald, Bees Much prefer NATURAL nectar with all its odors, minerals, etc compared to sugar syrup. You like maple syrup better than sugar syrup too. However, packages are DESPERATE for all the food they can get in order to reproduce so the colony can survive the winter that is coming in 6 months. They cannot get nectar during the night, during a rain, when it is chilly, or WHEN THE NECTAR FLOW STOPS. In most parts of the U. S., there is very little nectar in July and August. A package of bees started in April or May has to draw foundation into comb on 20-40 frames before October and bees will NOT work foundation into drawn comb unless there is a nectar flow on! Hence, you create an artificial nectar flow by using 1:1 sugar syrup and feed that syrup CONTINUOUSLY WITHOUT EVER STOPPING from now to about September if you want a strong colony that can set aside winter stores and be ready for next spring. Best to ignore what the "good old boys say", because they don't often follow these directions. I hope I have helped George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of beeKEEPING n Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:09:52 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Use of drone brood for varroa control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd Spear wrote: >an article by Tom Seeley in the June Bee Culture says that if you >increase the amount of drone brood produced, you will decrease honey >production. I've not read the Seeley article but assume Lloyd's summary is fair. I comment that many trends in nature are not monotonic: they do not increase or decrease continuously over a wide range of the causative variable but instead exhibit one or more 'turning points of inflexion', i.e. the sign of the slope of the graph changes at least once - the dependent variable goes thru a peak or trough. My supposition would be that this issue of proportion of drone brood is not of a monotonic kind but of a more complex nature. Is it plausible that more is better, indefinitely? Or that less is better, indefinitely? (The latter is obviously wrong.) I believe there will be an optimum proportion of drone brood - which may well be around 10 - 25% of total brood. The question for management then becomes whether we have anything like the understanding that would be needed to identify that optimum and intervene to enforce it in a systematic, justified way. I suggest we have no basis for imposing any particular proportion of drone brood, even for some specific circumstances let alone any general rule-of-thumb number. As with selection of eggs for new queens, I believe the bees know better than we do. The dominance by male-hating political fads in the overdeveloped world these past few decades should not be permitted to spill over in the form of anti-drone slogans which have insufficient scientific justification. Anyhow we must rate percentage of drone brood wrt more than one criterion. Honey yield is one criterion, but may there not be others too? R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:55:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little/Coldiron Farm Subject: Imirie Shims - Help Please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried to send a request to George regarding a problem I'm having with Imirie Shims, but for some reason, his email address isn't working for me. So, I thought I'd ask the group. I'm sure someone knows the answer. I live in West Texas at the base of the panhandle. Early this Spring, I put all my supers filled with drawn comb on the my hives. I also put Imirie shims between the supers as described in the Pink Pages. The shims have been in place for more than two months, but the bees don't use the extra entrances. I had an idea that they'd take a while to get used to extra entrances, but nothing so far. Any suggestions, insights, words of inspiration, etc... The shims sound like a good idea, but no one has told my bees. Thanks for your help Mark in West Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Russian Queens Greetings, I hadn't posted anything in a while, but I saw this topic come up recently, and just had a disscussion with someone about the difficulty of introducing Russian Queens to established colonies. I was talking to a well known and respected West Coast queen producer about this the other day, and I was told by them that there seems to be better acceptance of Russian queens if they are introduced to an established colony in the fall. It has appeared on this list before that there was concern that the queen pheromone may be different enough for an established colony to detect. That was also their conclusion as well. My question though would be why they would be more likely to accept Russian Queens in the fall? Possibly the prospect of running out of time before a new queen could be reared? Books tend to lead us to believe that Spring requeening is best, but are there some types of queens that may be accepted better in the fall? Scott