From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:45:55 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,URIBL_GREY,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C4F49093 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3si010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0205C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 192199 Lines: 4417 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:02:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Drone brood/honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All A recent post by Robert Mann covered part of this, but I would add. Drones obviously require resources for development and as their bodies are roughly twice the volume of a worker bee they require nectar/honey at about twice the amount for a worker and the pollen requirement to build a drone is even more than double that of a worker. So the simple deduction that has gone on for more than a century is that drones are a drain on colony resources and should be curtailed by avoidance or culling. As someone that has spent most of his beekeeping life trying to rear large quantities of fully fertile drones for mating. I have the following observations... If you try to limit the number of drones by removing a percentage of drone comb the bees will spend much effort and resources building new drone cells and making up the numbers. If you leave them to raise as many drones as they want, they appear (my subjective judgement) to go about their duties more diligently and actually produce more honey than would be expected from that number of bees. If you artificially increase the number of drone cells to the 50% mark the bees will raise a high number of drones (which will be properly fertile if adequate supplementary pollen is fed) at the same time surplus honey is gathered by such colonies, although not in such quantity as would be achieved without the drone raising. Far from being a dead loss, 10% - 25% drones act as a catalyst and comforter. The drones keep the brood warm and allow a higher precentage of workers to leave the hive for forage. 10% - 25% is quite a broad range and my be misleading... I accept that they are the upper and lower limits, but I suggest that the distribution curve is very steep sided for any given race of bees and that a centre point between 15% and 20 % is likely with the spread for any race being only plus or minus 3%. It is difficult for me to judge, because a high proportion of colonies that I have managed have had an above average number of drone cells, but (again subjectively) I reckon 15 % -20% would be the range for my locality. The books may say that combs with drone cells are ugly and inefficient and should be recycled, but I reckon the bees are more knowledgable about what is best for them. I see no justification for interferance or imposition of any 'limit'. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:08:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Question about giong away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I had an off list query about this, the answer to which I will share with the list. > What purpose does the newspaper serve? It acts as a temporary roof to the limit the excess volume, but is not a severe impediment to the bees if and when expansion is actually needed. In Kevin's case most of his colonies are this years packages, I probably should have said split the the other existing full sized colonies in half and also place stacks of supers on them. I got the idea from a guy that had a remote apiary that he could only visit three time per year. His method was successful and I have some notes on this (deep in the bowels of my filing cabinets). I will write it up for the website when I find them. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:41:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: No eggs, larva, or brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, You were going to check on Wednesday, the 8th, about your queens. I did not hear from you. What have you found? George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:17:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1st writer: > I requeen three strong hives this spring and not one of them was accepted. 2nd writer: > I set up about 15 nucs with Russian Queens this spring, all were accepted. I guess we have a problem with the designation, "Russian queens". It's just like saying, "car" instead of "Chevy" or "Lada". There are a number of lines of the Primorsky stock in the US and each has been carefully evaluated. Then there are the commercial releases and the open-mated non-pedigreed offspring of the offspring of Russian stock. Generalizations are a problem, since each writer usually has experience with only one or two samples. naming suppliers would help, but then, we don't on the other hand want to get into a situation where we trash an individual supplier's stock. In queen introduction, the beekeeper's methods of installing the queen can have as much or more influence on the success of the queens as the supplier's efforts and genetic material. If there is one thing I've learned on BEE-L it is this: everyone is telling the truth as he/she sees it, but the truth may differ from place to place and time to time. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:35:43 +0100 Reply-To: ben.smith@qm-systems.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Ben Smith (QM Systems)" Subject: Swarm repellent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of a suitable substance to prevent stragglers returning to the site of a swarm? I often have to remove swarms from small gardens, and often 1-2 hundred bees will try to form a small cluster where the swarm was, if this could be prevented then they might find the main cluster much faster and not cause so much distress to the householder. I have considered such things as citronella oil and DEET (mosquito repellent), but I was wondering if anyone else has experience with this. I am also considering building a 'BeeVac' for future swarm capture. Ben. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:54:58 -0400 Reply-To: OhioBeeFarmer Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Kids pull the darnest pranks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-145549320020513-110542.htm= l=0D =0D OhioBeeFarmer=0D Getting youth involved in Beekeeping=0D http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html=0D http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scott and All, Scott wrote: My question though would > be why they would be more likely to accept Russian Queens in the fall? Fall has always been a oppertunity to requeen as long as a fall flow is going on in my opinion. Russian queen breeders have always got to have a ready answer when asked by beekeepers not wanting to spend the time to get a difficult queen introduced. Below is what the Russian queen breeders *should* say (in my opinion). Introducing a queen directly into a strong hive is not for the novice. Introducing a queen with slightly different pheromones also complicates the issue. The feat is accomplished by spending the amount of time needed. Aaron did not have a problem with his introductions. Many introduction instructions say make a nail hole and place between the cage between the top bars. Maybe ok in spring in a nuc but will not work with 50-60,000 bees in fall. She could be out in less than eight hours. A couple better options for Russian queens: Introduce the Russian queen into a nuc with nurse bees and then requeen the strong hive with the nuc. Hand release the Russian queen into the hive after 3-5 days in the queenless hive. Keep checking till the workers are not wanting to ball the queen on the cage. release the queen onto the frame. If the bees try to ball the queen. Catch her and put her back in the cage. Try again in another day. Once released and left alone by the bees. Do not disturb for a week. Beekeeping is not as simple as many would have you believe. By now we all know that Russian queens are hard to introduce and the bees will supercede a Russian queen at any time. Simply spend the extra time and effort. Back to pondering why SMR queens have spotty brood patterns. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. for new beekeepers: To learn to correctly pick up a queen you need to practice with drones. On a day when the bees are in a good mood. Remove your gloves. Practice the picking up of drones by the wings. Drones do not sting but will buzz loudly which makes them harder to handle than a queen which helps in training. When ready to pick up the queen feel confident she WILL NOT sting you. Queens have stung beekeepers but the instance is so rare not really worth talking about. Most queens will curl and hold still while transported if held correctly. Damage to queens is rare. I would bet 50% of hobby beekeepers have never picked up a queen. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:19:33 -0700 Reply-To: Pahl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pahl Subject: side-by-side 2 queen confirgeration MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am looking for information, comments and experiences with the side-by-side 2 queen configuration. This is when two hives are placed side-by-side and they share the same honey super(s) which is separated by a queen excluder. ____ ___|____|___ Honey super |_____|_____| Brood |_____|_____| Brood Is honey production greater than having two separate hives? Can the entrances of the two hives be on the same side? Do the strength of the two hives need to be similar? I would be interested in receiving internet links to get more information, As well, I would be interested in any experiences the list subscribers may have had with this congregation including pros and cons. Gerhart Pahl Vancouver BC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Natural Mite Control Comments: To: Peter Borst Peter The screened Bottom boards are not for the purpose of eliminating V Mites. Their function is the ventilation feature as well as keeping debris normally accumulating off the bottom board. The board ( Can be Cardboard) beneath the screen serves the purpos of monitoring the mite " drop off". The side effect of the SBB is a reduction of mite propagation because the fallen mites do / cannot return to the bees. The mite population increases with the seasons time element , causing eventual demise of the colony. Quality of stock or breed does not seem to enter the equation. I keep adequate control with the application method of FGMO and have not lost a colony to either V or T mites.Of course It is up to the individual to be the judge of her or his method of treatment. Best regards JDF ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:52:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Kraus Subject: Re: Russian Queens In-Reply-To: <200205151536.g4FCNto8002965@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Practice the picking up of drones by the wings. Aren't the wings too delicate to withstand this? I thought the head and thorax were the better place to grasp. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:29:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: side-by-side 2 queen confirgeration Comments: To: Pahl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Pahl and All, > Is honey production greater than having two separate hives? Research done by Dr. Farrar showed it was although like most beekeeping topics there are those which would argue otherwise. Dr. Farrar had around 400 two queen hives in operation at one time I believe. > Can the entrances of the two hives be on the same side? Yes. Forget the idea of two hives and only consider one large hive WITH two queens. After the honey flow starts the second queen is a liability instead of an asset if interested in honey production as the bees raised later will arrive too late to help with the honey flow. > Do the strength of the two hives need to be similar? no. > > I would be interested in receiving internet links to get more information, Maybe others will provide internet sites as I have spent all the time I dare spend on the net today. . Quite a bit has been written about two queen hives. There are more con's about two queen hives than pro's in my opinion but fun to play with if you do not mind getting a few stings. 100,000 bees on a hot day without a honey flow on can be quite testy. Add 24 in the yard and the problem gets worse. Beekeeping story: I had some two queen hives in plain sight of a busy road. One had fallen over. A couple of new beekeepers from our club thought the would help out and upright my hive for me. There was not a honey flow on. Needless to say the hive was not set back up and both received many stings. On rare occasions I have had to walk away from strong two queen hives at peak population right before the start of the honey flow. I also did a three queen hive once from spring till fall. The fallen over hive had five deep boxes of brood and three deep boxes for space (future honey crop). If 15,000 bees (without crowding) will fit in a deep box then at least seven to eight would be needed for 100,000 bees. Dr. Farrar used five 6 5/8 brood boxes and claimed 100,000 bees but also had many 6 5/8 supers in place. Side by side has advantages but more disadvantages in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:59:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all If you are trying to introduce queens with a marked genetic difference to the existing workers you have a choice:- you can do it quick and easy and lose anywhere between 0 and 100%. Or you can spend time and effort and achieve your objective with (so far) 100% reliability. Your Col. Sanders showed the way and a couple of English guys that are often faced with introducing 'exotic' strains of queen have refined the method. It is called the Steve Taber/John Dews/Albert Knight method and you can see the details on the page about 2/3rds the way down http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/queenintro.html There are many other methods and many drawings of the different cages on this rather long page. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ADFiala Subject: Prosecution for pesticide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone on this list (in the U.S.) know of any instance of a beekeeper getting someone prosecuted for using pesticide to kill honeybees? A. D. Fiala Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David and All, David wrote: > >Practice the picking up of drones by the wings. > > Aren't the wings too delicate to withstand this? I > thought the head and thorax were the better place to grasp. Your fingers lightly actually touch the head and thorax but aiming for the wings is the way I was taught. Consider the wings as a big X for the placement of your fingers. Otherwise you could damage the queen. Queens can do great even with a damaged wing. I have picked up queens being balled any which way I can and flicked off the workers and most have been in great shape. These gals are pretty rugged and will take most everything but a squeeze with a popping sound. To mark the queen transfer her to the other hand and pin her legs on one side between your thumb and finger. There are no doubt different methods in use . This is the way I was taught and has worked for me for many years. Worker ,drone or queen I pick up without even thinking. My partner and I like to play a little game of passing worker bees back and forth while sitting in the bee truck and see who gets stung first. Actually the procedure has merit as we at times have to pass queen bees to each other while working. A worker bee will at times let you hold her without trying to sting but NOT if you are holding her wrong and hurting her. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: Russian Queens Comments: To: willetslakeapiaries@JUNO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Garrett: Let me tell you my experience with them and how I solved the introduction problem. Lets start at the begining: the pheramone of the Russian Queen is not different it's "a lot different". I got a bunch of this queens to try last year but I was already awared of the fact that they were harder to introduce, so this is what I did: the queens arrived in the plastic type of cages that have the sugar plug at the bottom and it's part of the cage, I removed about 3/8 of an inch of sugar from the shaft and I stuck a little stick in there that would fit real tight so that the bees cannot remove it. Then I put all the cages in the hive to be requeened (already took the original queens out) and left them there for 4 days, then I came back and released each queen from my fingers to the top of the frames full of bees to observe them and be able to grab the queen if she got attacked, non of them did. I came back 2 weeks later and they were all OK and laying eggs. They didn't start laying right away like all the other races I have tried and used, some of the queens took a week before they started to lay. 2 weeks later they were all doing good and 4 weeks later they all had black bees in the hive, meaning non of them got killed and the eggs that were hatching were in fact the Russian babies. This year when I was splitting, last year's queens were still there, I know because they all had the wings cut (I cut them myself before releasing them). I did this in late May last year the hive were strong and full of working adults and I did not loose any of the Russian queens from introduction. Good luck Maurice Utah, USA _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:33:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Imirie Shims - Help Please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark, Regarding my Imirie Shims: You indicate that the shims have been in place for over 2 months. WHY? I may be wrong, but I am not aware of any strong nectar flow taking place in late February - early March. Bees do NOT use holes drilled in supers, staggered placement of supers, broken super corners, or Imirie Shims as ENTRANCES and/or EXITS at any time other than very warm weather with a strong nectar flow. You are right about one thing: they have to "learn to use" entrances other than the standard bottom board entrance, but as soon as a forager age bee finds an entrance directly into the super area, bypassing the crowd in the lower brood area, that is the entrance she will use. I hope I have helped. Thanks for using my shims - I have been using them on over 100 colonies for over 40 years. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:54:16 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Einstein on bee ecology? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adrian Higgins, Washington Post Staff Writer alleges at the end of his generally excellent article on threats to bees Tuesday, May 14, 2002; Page A01 > a quotation attributed to Albert Einstein: "If the bee disappeared >off the surface of the globe then man would only have four years of life >left." Can anyone confirm or correct this attribution? I doubt he said anything so far from his expertise. Higgins also reports >beekeepers from California to Virginia are scratching their >heads at the Bush administration's proposal to close three of the four >Department of Agriculture bee research laboratories, including the first, >opened in the 1890s in Chevy Chase and moved to Beltsville in 1939. > >To save money and avoid possible duplication, the president has proposed >closing the bee labs at Beltsville, Baton Rouge, La., and Tucson. The >laboratory at Weslaco, Tex., would remain open. Funding would be reduced >from $5.7 million to $2.5 million, and the number of positions cut from 21 >to 9. > >"We certainly recognize the concern, but at the same time we have to reflect >some national priorities right now," said Alisa Harrison, spokeswoman for >Agriculture Secretary Ann M. Veneman. > >But beekeepers interviewed said any duplication of efforts by the >researchers is warranted in this crisis, and the cadre of scientists at the >four labs represents the honeybee's best hope for survival in the United >States. > >"It's like cutting all research for mad-cow disease just when an epidemic of >the disease reaches its pinnacle and decimates our beef industry," said >Laszlo Pentek, an Arlington beekeeper. This seems to me a sober comparison by Mr Pentek. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:04:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: No eggs, larva, or brood Comments: cc: rjro@starpower.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We found three of the hives in the same condition. We ordered three new queens from (Wilbanks) and put those in today. The others now have brood, we either found the queen, saw eggs, or saw brood when we checked last week. We are not sure if it just took longer for the queens to start laying, they didn't accept the new queen and produced another?? Any ideas? Thanks for you help, Rodney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:55:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juan de Fuca Subject: FGMO Application MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leon Go to beesource.com=20 look for Fgmo by Dr Pedro Rodriguez, I use his latest application method with the Burgess Insect Fogger . The = mineral oil is by STE oil / Texas . Additionally I use the emulsion formula be Rodriguez and saturate = papertowels or cotton mop material.=20 Good luck=20 JDF ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Einstein on bee ecology? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello R and All, I do not believe Einstein would have made the statement and have never read he did but stand to be corrected. . I thought the article brought out the needed points by Pat and plan to quote from the article next week at a program I am giving at a bee meeting. One part of the article I did not understand. "while a federal program has helped restock the hives". I am sure this is a missunderstanding between the writer and Pat. I had a non beekeeper friend read the article to see the impression he got. He said the article implies we were reimbursed for dead hives by a federal program which is not true. Maybe the article is talking about the honey loan program? SMR or Russian queens? Any ideas? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps I had two newspaper articles published about me last year and both had misquotes in them. Both agreed before hand I was to read the finished article before publication. Did not happen. O well "Today's newspaper is tomorrows smoker starter" Bob Harrison 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:02:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Prosecution for pesticide In-Reply-To: <200205151831.g4FDGL1Y004545@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on Bee-l It was written: Does anyone on this list (in the U.S.) know of any instance of a beekeeper getting someone prosecuted for using pesticide to kill honeybees? Reply: If concerning crops YES and how? Well that was my talk at the AHPA national meeting in 1990 in Tucson AZ and then the one also following in La the next year. However, many are not willing to do what has to be done and friends avoid you quickly like the plague. But it can be done and win!!! State and Fed admin don't like it too much though. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:04:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Einstein on bee ecology? Here's a link to the article: http://www.msnbc.com/news/751797.asp?0bl=-0 There are lots of errors, but I think generally a good article. As far as Einstein's quote, if there is a source for it, I couldn't find it. Regards to the list Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:48:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Einstein on bee ecology? In-Reply-To: <200205161249.g4GCPiYc013567@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A quote doesn't mean what it used to in newspapers. Typically, they'll take a handful of your statements and summarize them in a "quote" that sounds good to them and fits in the article. This is not what I learned in journalism school, but I've been "quoted" in this way and seen other such examples in recent years. Eugene Makovec --- Bob Harrison wrote: > > I had two newspaper articles published about > me last year and both had > misquotes in them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:23:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aasociety@AOL.COM Subject: Apitherapy CD-ROM Outlines Medicinal Uses of Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE APITHERAPY CD-ROM OUTLINES MEDICINAL USES OF BEE PRODUCTS (SCARSDALE, NY - 5/16/2002) - Did you know that when your grandmother gave you honey and lemon to help a cold, she was practicing apitherapy? Now a new CD-ROM, called "Medicine from the Bees," offers help to those who want to learn more about this ancient form of healing. SEE: http://www.apitherapy.org/aapsproducts.htm The CD-ROM, written in French, English and Spanish, gathers the current knowledge of international experts in apitherapy, the medicinal use of honey, beeswax, pollen, propolis,* royal jelly,** and bee venom. It examines more than 350 topics, ranging from the chemical properties of hive products, to the use of apitherapy as an accessible form of treatment in developing countries. This information, including more than 300 photographs, graphs, videos, and slide shows, is offered at a level relevant to both the general public and to medical professionals. "Medicine from the Bees" was produced at the request of Prof. Théo Cherbuliez (cher-boo-LAY), M.D., President of Apimondia's Standing Commission of Apitherapy and President of the American Apitherapy Society (AAS). "Apitherapy, relying as it does on local resources that are financially accessible, has the potential to help millions of people in the developing world. It can also provide a natural form of preventive medicine for those who seek alternative treatments," said Cherbuliez. Apitherapy has been practiced for thousands of years by many different cultures. The first known reference to the medicinal use of hive products was found on clay tablets in Mesopotamia dating from 2700 B.C. Ancient Egyptian papyri also referred to the use of honey and beeswax as a treatment of eye diseases and as a wound dressing. The religious texts of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism all make reference to the benefits of what would today be called apitherapy. Anecdotal evidence suggests that apitherapy can be effective both in maintaining good health and in the treatment of skin conditions, viral infections, cardiovascular problems, hearing and vision loss, depression, and other medical complaints. Apitherapy, in the form of bee venom therapy (BVT), is perhaps best known for its use in treating arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS). On July 26, 2002, apitherapists from around North American will gather in Fort Mitchell, Ky., for the annual Charles Mraz Apitherapy Conference. (Fort Mitchell is just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati, Ohio.) The conference includes lectures and workshops on the use of these honey bee products and concludes with an apitherapist certification test. The American Apitherapy Society, Inc. (AAS) is a nonprofit membership organization established for the purpose of advancing the investigation of apitherapy. AAS makes no claims about the safety or efficacy of honey bee products and does not endorse any specific type of apitherapy. - END - CONTACT: Kate Chatot, Tel: (802)-563-3033, E-mail: jkjjchatot@cs.com or Sara Cornwall, Tel: (914) 725-7944, Email: aas.office@verizon.net * Propolis is a resinous substance collected by bees from plants and trees and is used to coat the inside of the beehive and the honeycomb cells with an antiseptic layer. ** Royal Jelly is a substance produced by worker bees and is fed to queens. American Apitherapy Society 1209 Post Road Scarsdale, NY 10583-2023 Tel: (914) 725-7944 Fax: (914) 723-0920 E-mail: aas.office@verizon.net URL: http://www.apitherapy.org ---- To SUBSCRIBE to or UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, go to: http://aas.biglist.com/apitherapy/ ----- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Einstein on bee ecology? In-Reply-To: <200205161249.g4GCSGXM013593@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He may be referring to the program in MD to buy up to 5 hives for any beekeeper - used by many to restock (and by others to simply get into the hobby or increase their numbers). I believe they pay for it with part of the tobacco settlement money, but it could be from a federal grant. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Harrison "while a federal program has helped restock the hives". ...He said the article implies we were reimbursed for dead hives by a federal program which is not true. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Washington post article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim and All, Tim wrote: > There are lots of errors, but I think generally a good article. As a friend of Pat's and up on industry happenings I did not see "lots of errors". Point out a couple Tim and I will comment. I did find one part humorous: Pat was talking about problems beekeepers deal with and pointed out the following in the article. "honey robbing by skunks" Our Missouri skunks will scratch the front and eat the bees which emerge but have not evolved to the stage of California skunks yet and started "honey robbing". I almost did not comment as maybe skunks are a huge problem in California with "honey robbing". Maybe we have just been lucky so far with Midwestern hives sent to Almonds. I really believe the writer misunderstood what Pat was saying about skunks. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:03:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm repellant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/05/02 05:03:21 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Does anyone know of a suitable substance to prevent stragglers returning to the site of a swarm? >> Bee go. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:00:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question about going away. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/05/02 05:03:21 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I got the idea from a guy that had a remote apiary that he could only visit three time per year. His method was successful and I have some notes on this (deep in the bowels of my filing cabinets). >> Dave, That sounds like John Cox. He also had a useful method of queen rearing at that apiary involving transferring a very small patch of egg/larvae to a 4 frame nuc made up with otherwise sealed brood and stores. Maybe that's in your filing cabinet as well. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:46:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Spotty brood in SMR hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Inbreeding? If they're significantly inbred, wouldn't that produce diploid drones which would then be eaten by the workers, leaving a spotty brood pattern? Is there an expert in bee genetics in the house? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:29:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hubbard Subject: what to feed bees while I'm away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I installed a package of bees in April and they seem to be doing very well pulling out new foundation and collecting nectar and pollen. They are emptying a gallon of sugar syrup every 3 - 5 days and I intend to continue feeding them while foundation is being pulled. However, I will be traveling in June and will not be able to feed them for a couple of weeks. Should I continue to give them sugar syrup knowing it will run out? Should I make a big enough piece of candy to last the time period I'm gone? What about dry sugar on the inner cover? Is that a possibility? How long will it last? I'm in SE Missouri and in June there should presumably be a fairly good nectar flow. Mark hubbard@cofo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:30:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: observation colony and perspex MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello all Has anyone any experience or knowledge of getting bees to live inside a perspex container - in addition, getting them to climb up to a roof? I tried the other day and my swarm did not appear to want to leave their cardboard box and climb up the perspex to the roof. I can think of other ways to get them in, including mounting a frame of larvae on the roof and offering the swarm box up to the starter frame. However, that leaves the question of their comfort on perspex - maybe it out-gassed and they find it unpleasant. I did not give them proper ventilation until later and that might have caused problems. Now housed in a hive, the queen is laying well and they are behaving normally so there was no problem with the swarm. Help? -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Washington post article Hi Bob I didn't mean to nit-pick. There are some things that could have been better stated though. I was left under the impression that the author didn't know that Apis aren't native to the US, what with the statement that wild flowers aren't seeding themselves the way they should. Many native flowers have been seeding themselve far more than they should have during the last couple centuries thanks to our friends, though I doubt there's been any big harm. There was also hyperbole, I think bureaucrats are very capable of doing much more harm that reducing funding for honey bees. To say (I know he's just reporting the info he got from the beekeeper) that a wild swarm will only last a year also is an stretch. Again, sorry to nit-pick. Very best Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:43:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarm repellent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Ben. I describe how to use a "shop vac" to make a suction swarm catcher at . It enables me to get nearly all the returning foragers before I leave the swarm location. Works like a charm. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:43:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob had a lot of good things to say about introducing queens. I have an alternate suggestion; Use a Thurber Long Cage described at and . Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: what to feed bees while I'm away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark and All, I do not want to be in disagreement with George but there are flaws to the feed,feed feed approach. Simply put you can get in trouble in the Midwest with George's approach. Each area IS different. Starting the first of April and feeding till fall even with a package will get comb drawn but will also get a swarm if only kept in two boxes. We have got plenty of pollen (unlike many areas of the U.S.)and bees being fed raise plenty of brood. Young queens swarm also when conditions are right. I proved this very fact to a friend once by shaking more and more bees in a single box with a young queen. Three hours later the young egg laying queen swarmed exactly like I said she would. Mark wrote: However, I will be traveling in June and will not be able to feed them for a couple of weeks. Should I continue to give them sugar syrup knowing it will run out? You have been feeding for eight weeks. Check the bees progress. Rain will be the only reason you might have to feed in June. If dry I would not feed as June is our major honey flow.. Start back feeding in July if foundation is not yet drawn or the hive feels light when tilted and sweet clovers have quit blooming. >Should I make a big enough piece of candy to last the time period I'm gone? No. Bees prefer nectar over candy and syrup once they get strong enough and your bees should be approaching 25 to 30,000 plus by now. What about dry sugar on the inner cover? Is that a possibility? No! Dry sugar is for starvation winter feeding for those beekeepers which do not properly prepare their hives for winter. I never use dry sugar but will work if your bees are starving. < I'm in SE Missouri and in June there should presumably be a fairly good nectar flow. We get years without the state average in honey production but all we need this year is for the rain to stop (like they are predicting for next week as the jet stream is finnally changing) to get at least a average honey production year. The plants are ready to bloom. I can not predict the start of the main flow for your area without looking at your location. The time frame varies but your main flow should be a full week ahead of my area. The late date for the main flow is June 10-15 in my area and can start much earlier. Flows can start and stop in Missouri with rain and cool weather. I have only scratched the surface on Missouri plant discussion but giving a few helpful hints. Learn the honey plants in your area. Floral sources can vary every few miles in Missouri. The worst location is in the middle of farmers fields for as far as you can see. Black Locust is in bloom now but duration is short but flows can be intense if the bees are strong. The bees did not produce black Locust honey last year even though the trees were white with blooms. I do not have a clue as to the reason. possible reasons: cool nights cool days subsoil moisture humidity rain Dutch Clover is blooming but the rain will have to stop before the flow can start. I saw the bees on the Dutch Clover for about three hours last week until the rain came. Even Dan Rather is talking about our rainy weather. We had good minor flows from henbit and wild mustard this spring in most areas. Good locations will make a successful beekeeper and poor choice locations have been the ruin of many a beekeeper. Once I choose a location I leave the bees in the location for three years before evaluating the location. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Taking extra time with the new Missouri beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Einstein on bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Somebody in the honey bee discussion group came up with a quote from Einstein about the connection between bees and mankind. It appears that the quote about bees from Einstein was a fabrication. But in searching for it, I found some other Einstein quotes: "When a blind beetle crawls over the surface of the globe, he doesn't realize that the track he has covered is curved. I was lucky enough to have spotted it." "When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge." "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." This is a story I heard as a freshman at the University of Utah when Dr. Henry Eyring was still teaching chemistry there. Many years before he and Dr. Einstein were colleagues. As they walked together they noted an unusual plant growing along a garden walk. Dr. Eyring asked Dr. Einstein if he knew what the plant was. Einstein did not, and together they consulted a gardener. The gardener indicated the plant was green beans and forever afterwards Eyring said Einstein didn't know beans. --- guess he didn't know bees, either -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:21:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Native bees was Washington Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim wrote that "Apis aren't native to the US. I have a terrible problem with this "Native" word. I think it should be qualified by a time scale. At what stage to you consider something to be native to an area? A thousand years? A million years? Five million? Consider Native Americans. Have they always lived in America or did they come out of Africa like the rest of us? Harry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dan and All, The Thurber long cage construction and use are also described on page 61 of Roy's book. "Bee Chats, Tips and Gadgets". I treasure my copy. A Washington beekeeper posted a couple years ago on Bee-L they were going to start printing and selling the book again. P.F.(Roy) Thurber was an exceptional beekeeper. Roy's wife confided Roy would get up in the night trying to solve a particular beekeeping problem he was working on. The book is full of his many beekeeping inventions and collections of what he considered the best beekeeping articles he had read in various newsletters and magazines . Dadant published the original book in 1986 BUT Roy's wife Louise holds the copyright. Maybe time for a reprint. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:54:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Native bees was Washington Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> In a British context, I sometimes read that such-and-such was probably introduced by the Romans, but I've never come across speculation about introductions by the Ancient Britons, though it would be a safe bet that there would have been some, in my opinion. So I suppose the cut-off point for 'nativeness' round here is probably around the time of Julius Caesar. In a North American context, wouldn't it be likely to lie at about the time of the arrival of the Europeans? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:52:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Question about going away. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > That sounds like John Cox You are correct... and it will be dealt with sometime. Is the Round Tuit Factory back in commission yet? The transfer of 25 mm square chunks of comb was embodied in the three visit method. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Einstein on bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi It appears that the quote about bees from Einstein is a fabrication. But in searching for it, I found some other Einstein quotes: "When a blind beetle crawls over the surface of the globe, he doesn't realize that the track he has covered is curved. I was lucky enough to have spotted it." "When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge." "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." This is a story I heard as a freshman at the University of Utah when Dr. Henry Eyring was still teaching chemistry there. Many years before he and Dr. Einstein were colleagues. As they walked together they noted an unusual plant growing along a garden walk. Dr. Eyring asked Dr. Einstein if he knew what the plant was. Einstein did not, and together they consulted a gardener. The gardener indicated the plant was green beans and forever afterwards Eyring said Einstein didn't know beans. --- guess he didn't know bees, either -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Native bees was Washington Post Harry, if you look up the word "native", you'll find it is synonomous with the work "indigenous". In the fields of zoology and botony this means "originating". Thus, corn (maize) in not native to Africa, even though it's been there hundreds of years. Corn in "native" to the Americas. Ceonothus is "native" to California, proteas are "native" to South Africa, even though they are both grown around the world. This is generally understood when writing about things agricultural. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:06:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: what to feed bees while I'm away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I wrote: > Floral sources can vary every few miles in Missouri. The worst location is > in the middle of farmers fields for as far as you can see. Maybe I should talk about the above. Field in farmers terms means plowed (or no till) and planted. Pastures are open land for livestock. Pasture areas are the better choice for locations for many reasons. Our main field crops in Missouri are corn and soybeans . The news channels say Missouri's largest cash crop is canabis sativa. Corn produces only pollen and soybeans bloom late and are not always dependable (what plant is?). In many row crop areas of Missouri we are talking thousands of acres of both. Bee locations in those areas are missing the spring pollen from trees and the only forage is the ditches . Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:25:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Spotty brood in SMR hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert and All, Robert wrote: > Inbreeding? If they're significantly inbred, wouldn't that produce > diploid drones which would then be eaten by the workers, leaving a spotty > brood pattern? Dr. Harbo (USDA bee lab) sent a letter talking about the problem. I have got several theories but would be interested in others thoughts. You can rule out the above theory in my opinion as these queens are not laying drone brood in the oval circles but in the proper place and the drones are being raised. Instead of using the word spotty I should say many frames with eggs, larva and sealed brood all on the same frame. We have had the wettest spring since the flood year of 1993 so hard to draw conclusions as wet and cool weather can produce those types of patterns. I might do a post later on the problems wet weather makes for beekeepers and bees. Many beekeepers are way behind on their bee work. Swarming WILL be the talk at bee meetings next month exactly like it was in late spring 1993 in Missouri. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: What do you think the future will bring- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on BEE-L I have been asked this question in similar terms quite a bit this month since ads came out in Bee Culture and ABJ and giving reply back. What do you all think? > Hmmmm.......... seems odd that now they just start advertising 4.9. What do > you think is coming down the pike? Reply: You really want to know? Well, I think since there for years were about 600-650 commercial beekeepers in the USA nationwide and then since the early 1990s this has now fallen to about 450 commercial, that in the next two this number will now fall to about 100-150, maybe less due to contaminated combs from putting various dopes into colonies. You cannot go backwards on the pesticide treadmill i.e. from apistan/coumaphos to soft chemicals. Your hives will crash! Likewise, you cannot go from soft chemicals to no chemicals for they will crash also. LIkewise, without getting off of the bigger artificially enlarged combs they will crash. Remember that only about 10% of all the bees in the USA is probably all that is good enough to survive if someone seriously wants to save them. But effort will be kept by the majority to keep the overly man domesticated inbred lines that in Nature should have died years ago. Remember in Nature there is no such thing as a complex hybrid! ONly in man's artificial world do they exist and we will all as a world industry now pay a high price for this. What is coming you ask! Breeders collasping I think to some degree. Larger commercial collasping also because they cannot continue with residue topped-out contaminated combs and drug resistant bees with brood dying from such contamination, which means no way to change combs, to reestablish livable broodcell conditions again. What is coming with the 4.9mm foundation ads? Well, at least they cannot say they weren't told there is an alternate way to get off of the pesticide treadmill, hard though it may be, with time left though short, to do so, for those wishing to fight their way off. Also I think these ads will spawn more ads of other types for getting off of the pesticide treadmill with the chemical control crowd. An international meeting has already been set up to look into the world wide drug and pesticide contamination issue by scientists, administrators and legislative personnel this fall in Europe. But They will talk and I don't think anything positive will come out of the meeting for they will cover themselves and not industry. No change will be positive until industry does it themselves, for the field is where the work must be done. When the big crash comes and I think it will due to procrastination, then the public will cry, but by then it will be way too late. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:21:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<>> I disagree. Having spent all the war years abroad I came home to find my bees dead and the hives vandalised. I spent two years collecting a motley lot of swarms and bees from derelict apiaries. At the end of another five years, by careful selection and culling, I had twenty plus stocks whose queens laid lots of eggs, whose bees were docile and who were reluctant to swarm. >From then on it was just a question of continual assessment,regular re-queening and getting rid of the occasional mis-match. In a lifetime of beekeeping I have never bought in a queen. There are strains of bees which are inveterate swarmers and other strains not so eager. If you find a stock which has not swarmed in two or three years you have something to work on. If you requeen from swarm cells you will be forever chasing swarms. <<<>> This again is just not true. Lose a swarm and you lose half your nectar gatherers at a critical time. Catch the swarm and you have the work ot hiving it and returning it later to where it came from. In our uncertain climate, where nectar flows are cut short due to changing weather conditions we need a hive full of bees from April to July, ready to rush out whenever the sun shines. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Wayne F. Young" Subject: Hive Bodies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Everyone, I have a couple of hives that the bees have decided to use the top full body as a brood chamber after wintering there.I would like to reverse them to their original position,having the bottom body as a brood chamber,and then work into the top body which is also a full body at a time when they choose. The top body at this point is full .I am afraid that they might swarm if I don`t do this. At this point there are not any Queen cells so I think I am safe if I rotate them. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Wayne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:28:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Native bees was Washington Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following could be extrapolated to refer to apis, too: This has always troubled me, in another way. Why am I not native to an area, since I was born in the same house that my great great grandfather first occupied in 1772, and which was continually occupied by the succeeding generations, and my brother's daughters also lived in that house and went to the same rural school as my great grandfather, grandfather, father, I and my brother, and they? What is that, six generations? > At what stage to you consider something to be native to an area? A thousand years? A million years? Five million? Consider Native Americans. Have they always lived in America or did they come out of Africa like the rest of us? Harry And, yes, was the Garden of Eden in Africa? I've always wondered. Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:58:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: The future Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Dee Lusby and All Well said Dee. I believe that there are few on the List who will deep down disagree with you. But all that it takes to get you off this treadmill is you. Again I think of the beekeepers in the relatively 'hive pollution free' countries like my own and New Zealand and Australia eventually. These beekeepers can avoid the doping of the hives from day one, and never get on the treadmill in the first place. I am presently carrying out checking for varroa, in apiaries where I have not yet found varroa, without Bayvarol. In the apiary where I have varroa I have two or three hives continuously monitoring for varroa level, again without Bayvarol - natural mite fall. I feel that the tide is slowly turning against the chemicals. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What do you think the future will bring- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and All, I see a different future but respect your opinion. There is not a single beekeeper which thought putting a pesticide strip in a beehive was something they wanted to do but were forced to do to stay in business. My researcher friends do not see the scenario playing out as you predict. We see the SMR and Russian line as the answer but (as with 4.9 foundation) both need proven beyound a shadow of a doubt. I also see plastic foundation as the way to remove contaminated wax from hives and could easily be done in short order. Simply scrape the wax and give the plastic back to be redrawn. Feed until drawn out. 4-5 months time plus feed. Many of us switched to plastic at the same time we started using Apistan for the very reason of wax contamination but I have never seen the need to replace ANY brood comb so far. I see harder times for the U.S. honey producer if he does not find a direct market for his or her honey. The U.S. honey industry is being kept alive like the U.S. steel industry was. Eventually the world market will crush the wholesale honey business in the U.S.. There ALWAYS has been a market for all the drums of honey you can produce in the U.S. *as long as you can afford to sell under the price of the foreign competition*! Facts are facts. FACT: Every packer in the U.S. would buy U.S. honey first if priced BELOW the price he could buy foreign honey. Wholesale honey prices are up today but wholesale honey prices are not going to stay up in a world market. Simply never has happened and is not going to happen. I see better times for the pollination business but beekeepers are going to have to figure their costs of providing the hive for pollination and then add a reasonable profit . Tell the growers to take the deal or leave it. Growers have set pollination fees for too long. Does any other business provide a service without a reasonable profit ? Many Midwest beekeepers have said they have only broke even or in fact lost money pollinating Almonds in California. Are not the growers many times setting the price for pollination "take it or leave it"? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: The future Tom, with respect, why would I want to get off a treadmill that has given us longer, more pleasant lives, with more food for less money than at any time in modern history? My 35 hectares of table grapes were getting eaten by worms one year, so I sprayed. We had a good, healthy harvest. It's been that way for over a half century, with every decade bringing us safer, more efficient control. Why would it stop now? I think about the old strong, dangerous chemicals like DDT and Zyklon. These had problems, but saved countless lives and millions of tons of food. Now there are chemicals to kill disease vectoring lice and such even better, and they are so soft that you can sprinkle them around your house. Why would it be any different for bees? It's now 7 months (hope I'm not harping) since I treated with Checkmite and Terrapatties and my 100 plus hives are strong, very productive and not polluted by any standards that I would (with great respect to others on the List) accept. 5 to 10 minutes per hive, about 5 dollars, and no screens, sugar rolling, special sized cells, no nothing, and it's been 7 months. So, yes, an irresponsible beekeeper in my area can cause resistance within the next several years. What do I have to lose by keeping my routine? Nothing, in my opinion. People have been predicting a crash since Rachel Carlson's "Silent Spring" yet just the opposite is happening. Very best regards Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob: In reply to your assertion about the queen that “she WILL NOT sting you.” I’ve been waiting for someone to make that assertion! I was stung by a queen once while trying to mark her. I absolutely, positively, unequivocally insist that it happened! I mentioned the incident at a local beekeeping meeting. I wasn’t believed. Some of the beekeepers told me I had probably been scratched by a nail, etc. etc. etc. At Simon Fraser University a little over a year ago, I mentioned it to Mark Winston. He said he believed me and that in the past he, too, had been stung by a queen. Then he congratulated me for being one of the very few. Granted, the odds of it happening are probably up there with winning one of the mega-lotteries or Hillary Clinton becoming the next U.S. President, but the queen did sting. (By the way the queen did not die and went on to produce a lot of rather gentle bees.) Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:21:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Native bees was Washington Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The word "native" is to do with being born. i.e. If you are born in America then you are a native of America. Eunuch uses the word correctly. The word has been corrupted in recent years to have the same meaning as indigenous which itself has, in my opinion, no accurate meaning. Tim has put forward the idea that this mean "originating" when used in the context of zoology and botany which I think is a flawed concept. Living organisms evolve. They do not "originate". At what point in a creature's evolution do you say that it has originated? With regard to bees. If you use the original meaning of "native" then almost all bees in America are native bees. If you are talking about where and when the species originated then seem to me to be venturing into a very grey area. Bees have been around for a very long time (25 million years?) Who would be so bold as to say that they did not originate in what may have been America 25 million years ago? If it was not for human intervention bees would probably not exist in many countries in which they live today. This whole idea of native / indigenous species should be dropped as it has lead to a lot of stupid consequences. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 09:05:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: macprofessor Subject: Copper Glyconate in Varroa control. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Any comments on the report at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/cupric_salts.pdf It seems to give good information and offer a useful way forward in the treatment of varroa. Has anyone any experience or comments on the use of copper, or the reported information? I posted this 4 days ago and no one has come back ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 08:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been using copper gluconate in the sugar syrup for about 2 years = now with good results 1/4 tea. to a gallon of sugar syrup.=20 george ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:36:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > I mentioned the incident at a local > beekeeping meeting. I wasn't believed. We must start a club... Membership qualification... Being stung by a queen. I qualify for membership, but it has only happened once to me, in more than twentyfive years of actively picking up queens. I have been stung a few times by workers when picking up the queen, but the queen herself leaves no evidence behind. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 12:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What do you think the future will bring In-Reply-To: <200205180401.g4I3xEYm017571@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >You really want to know? Well, I think since there for >years were about 600-650 commercial beekeepers in the USA >nationwide and then since the early 1990s this has now >fallen to about 450 commercial, that in the next >two this number will now fall to about 100-150, maybe less >due to contaminated combs from putting various dopes into >colonies. Could you please explain how you arrived at these figures? And also, what do you mean by "commercial"? Isn't a commercial beekeeper anyone who *sells* honey? There are thousands of such people in the USA. >Remember in Nature there is no such thing >as a complex hybrid! ONly in man's artificial world do they >exist and we will all as a world industry now pay a high >price for this. Could you explain what you mean by *complex hybrid*? Then, perhaps, we can determine if they occur in "nature". I might remind you that beekeeping is a perfect example of man's "artificial world". As far as I can tell, wild bees do not normally live in boxes with frames of foundation, etc. In fact, in this area there are no wild honeybees (Apis). -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 12:27:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Statistics on United States beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Statistics on United States beekeeping are sparse and not totally accurate. The following is an estimate of the state of the industry in 1993 : · 125,000 beekeepers--located in every state · 3.03 million colonies--operated by owners of five or more colonies · Typical commercial operation--1500-2500 colonies · About 600 beekeepers operate 1,000 or more colonies each; as a group these produce 75% of the U.S. honey crop · Farm value of honey crop--$US 125 million · U.S. honey consumption--1.1 pounds · Employment--2,400 full time and 6,100 part time employees · Added value (pollination) to 40 U.S. crops--$US 9.7 billion Sources of Revenue produced by the beekeeping industry that year: · Honey production--$US 125 million · Pollination rentals--$US 46 million · Queens and packages--$US 27 million · Hive products--$US 5 million Historically, beekeeping has declined in the United States. In 1947, there were 5.9 million beehives. This number decreased steadily, leveling off at 4.1 million in the 1980s, but falling off again to a 1993 level of 2.9 million. Comment: If you take the figure 1000 colonies, you eliminate almost every beekeeper I know. I know many people who own between 300 and 900 hives. If they are not commercial beekeepers, why are they working so hard? I owned 450 hives in the 1980s. I grossed $80,000 a year from honey and bee pollen. According to the dictionary, "commercial" means "having profit as the chief aim." If you are doing bees solely for fun, then it is not commercial. And what about the 2400 - 6000 employees? Aren't they commercial beekeepers? They may not own *any* bees themselves, but if that is their primary source of income, if that is their job, they sure aren't hobbyists. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Microwaves & sugar syrup. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there any risk in heating sugar syrup up in a microwave oven (to better dissolve the sugar) ? I know burnt syrup is rather fatal to bees but I do not know if a microwave can burn sugar. Thank you, Waldemar Long Island, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:57:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the queen would not die since her stinger is not barbed. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:36:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Native bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Harry & All, > This whole idea of native / indigenous species > should be dropped as it has lead to a lot of stupid consequences. > Harry > I am curious, What "stupid consequences" has been lead to about native / indigenous species? The one consequence I can see that may have come out of this subject is if there was native / indigenous species in the Americas before the introduction of European, African, and Far Eastern species then they may still be around and should be located so they do not become an extinct species soon. Another may be that the so called killer bee may not be an African bee. Hopefully, DNA testing may help conclude this matter. If the so called killer bee is not an African bee it would be good news to the beekeeping industry. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 12:51:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" D. Lusby writes: >But effort will be kept by the majority to keep the overly >man domesticated inbred lines that in Nature should have >died years ago. Remember in Nature there is no such thing >as a complex hybrid! from Summary of Western Apiculture Society Meeting August 15-18, 2001 at Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon >Speakers at the convention spoke on topics of honeybee genetics. Dr. >Steve Sheppard gave some excellent background information about the >differences between natural selection (there are currently 26 know >subspecies of honeybees worldwide) and artificial selection. >Currently there are 43 commercial queen producers in the US, using >603 breeder queens to produce almost 900,000 queens for commercial >use/yr. The queens selected for breeding have desirable traits for >beekeepers needs, not necessarily bee needs. This puts tremendous >pressure towards inbreeding. Shotgun brood pattern is one of the >best signs of an inbred queen. > >Dr. Sheppard advocates (1) that queen breeders maximize the >diversity of their breeder queens using stock from East and West >Coast as well as feral populations that have survived mites, (2) >that beekeepers purchase queens from multiple queen breeders, and >(3) that the US continues to monitor and support importation of >queens from other countries. Comment: The experts warn of heavy inbreeding, much as Lusby does. But the solution is not *further* isolation and selection, as she has advocated. The genetic base has to be *broadened*, not narrowed. Hybridization and inbreeding are two separate issues. Good traits are essential, but so is diversity. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 14:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kathy O'Brien Subject: ant control Help! I am a novice beekeeper (have had three hives for two months). I am having a heck of a time keeping the ants out of my hives. Can someone give me any help with this problem? Many thanks, Kathy O'Brien Arroyo Grande, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 15:21:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you, Tim, thank you, thank you. My sentiments exactly. A man from Mars reading our List and the media would think the whole world yearns for the days of Lewis and Clark. If and when I have to, I'll sugar roll and freeze drone brood. Until then I keep a clear conscience by following the labels. The activities permitted were not just picked out of the air to please the manufacturer. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all I really must agree with Tim on this issue. I have been around agriculture and livestock for all my life. Antibiotics, pesticides, herbicides, ect. ie.chemicals have always been apart of my life. I have been trained by my father and others to handle with care and to be very careful to follow the label. For me it is a way of life. Yes there health risks which we do our best to keep to a minimum by using proper application techniques, but then life is all risk and we will all die one day. If we want to maintain our standard of living as we know it to day this is a risk that must be excepted. Now to the foreseeable future. If we see organic agriculture continue to grow in the future, we will also see skyrocketing food prices. Which will either make it financial harder to get the food we want and in some cases need, or it will force our wages up. This will cause the rise in other prices, and so the inflationary cycle begins again. It is every persons responsibility to use chemicals properly and only according to it's labeled usage. For most off those in agriculture it is a necessary evil. Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: FOLLICLE Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI ALL, JUST READ THE SECOND ARTICLE ON "FOLLICLE", A COMMERCIAL PRODUCT PRODUCED IN THE U.K. FOR THE TREATMENT OF HEAD LICE. IT HAS BEEN TESTED ON BEES FOR THE TREATMENT OF VARROA AND THERE IS RESEARCH ON GOING FOR THIS PURPOSE. HAS ANYONE USED THIS PRODUCT OR FAMILIAR WITH IT'S USE. THE PRODUCT IS MADE OF NATURAL COMPOUNDS CONSIDERED "GENERALLY RECOGNIZED AS SAFE". COLEENE ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:08:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Native bees was Washington Post In-Reply-To: <200205181119.g4IBI5Wu004494@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200205181119.g4IBI5Wu004494@listserv.albany.edu>, Harry Goudie writes >This whole idea of native / indigenous species >should be dropped as it has lead to a lot of stupid consequences. 10,000 years is good enough for me since the last ice age receded and returned bees from SW France. 40,000 for some humans in some areas. There appears to be continuos selection for traits held by bees of 150 years ago, before races from south of European mountain ranges were imported to these Isles. -- James Kilty Far South Western UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:02:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: The future In-Reply-To: <200205182238.g4IMDuYe015479@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200205182238.g4IMDuYe015479@listserv.albany.edu>, Garrett M Martin writes >If >we see organic agriculture continue to grow in the future, we will also >see skyrocketing food prices. I find it a problem when a list devoted to beekeeping makes points like this. I have no problem with the point about using medications properly, particularly as alternatives are debated. However, a blanket statement of this sort cannot properly be refuted or debated on a Beekeeping List - it involves paradigms of human endeavour on the planet and the politics of wealth and power to suggest two major dimensions. I would be grateful if members would recognise this. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:24:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sullivan Subject: requeening trouble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A little backround to help with some advice I need. I overwintered 2 hives in Mass and planned to split each this Spring. In March both hives seemed to be doing fine but in April one hive showed diminishing brood area just when I expected the opposite. By early May when the two queens arrived, there was no brood at all in the problem hive so I thought I'd make one split from the healthy hive and requeen the other. I looked through the hive twice and found no queen but with only 4 years experience I often cannot find the queen when I want to. I'm getting better though. I released the queen onto an empty brood frame and confined her with a push in cage about 31/2 x 5 inches. Four days later I went to release both queens from their push in cages and the queen in the split slowly went down between the frames followed by an entorage. The queen in the queenless hive flew away as soon as the cage was removed. A humbling experience to say the least but I imediately ordered a new queen and 3 days later had her in the push in cage. Still not a sign of brood any where. This time I waited 5 days and released the queen. She was imediately balled. I had only read of this behavior but once seeing it, the aggressiveness of the act makes it pretty unmistakeable. I went through the hive, found the balled queen and carefully removed her aggressors, and then isolated her in the push in cage again. Is this hive hopeless? I thought if there were laying workers I would see drone developing in worker cells. If this hive truly is queenless wouldn't they be eager to accept a new queen. Just when I feel some confidence something like this will happen to remind me that this craft is a lifetime's persuit. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not discouaged by the craft, just this hive. Thanks for any help TimSul ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick and All, The post script I wrote was to teach new beekeepers. I wondered re reading before sending if someone might get the wrong idea. The whole sentance from my post without the highlight. quote: "WHEN READY TO PICK UP THE QUEEN FEEL CONFIDENT SHE WILL NOT STING YOU" Dick wrote: > In reply to your assertion about the queen that "she WILL NOT sting you." > I've been waiting for someone to make that assertion! I was stung by a > queen once while trying to mark her. I mentioned the incident at a local > beekeeping meeting. I wasn't believed. I believe you Dick but I have been keeping bees over 40 years and have NEVER been stung by a queen. If you read my post about handling worker bees you will see the worker can be handled without being stung but will try to sting if held wrong hurting her. In my opinion you were holding the queen wrong and so she gave you a sting. Others have said they have been stung by the queen but the instance is so rare it is in my opinion really worth talking about. If a student would get stung I would be surprised and act concerned but life would go on. The main thing a first time handler of a queen should consider is not hurting the queen rather than thinking they are going to get stung by the queen at any time. Thanks for making the comment Dick as others may have thought I said the queen will never sting. She has the sting and we all know the wrath of a women scorned or hurt. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nancy Dalrymple Subject: Re: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " have been using copper gluconate in the sugar syrup for about 2 years" and what does this do? I must have missed some discussion?? thanks nd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:59:20 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote > We must start a club...Membership qualification... Being stung by a queen. I will also be applying for membership. I estimate that I am up to about 6 times being stung by a queen. It usually happens when I am getting queen bees out of a bank for caging. We escort cages with worker bees from the hive in which the queens are banked. We have the queens banked in cages which hold 6 queens, 3 on either side. I take the cork out and put the banking cage in a small cage with a flap door. The queen comes out and I catch her, put her into the pre escorted cage and then spray all with a fine mist of water. The 6 times I have been stung by the queen is when I catch her to put her in the pre escorted cage. I put it down to the fact that I probably have pheromone from the other queens on my fingers and the queen thinks she is stinging another queen. These are the only occasions I have been stung by a queen. It does not hurt like a normal bee sting. It is like pricking your finger with a needle. The pain goes away almost immediately and I have had no swelling. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 10:49:47 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Stung by the queen In-Reply-To: <200205182223.g4IMDvX0015491@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> I mentioned the incident at a local >> beekeeping meeting. I wasn't believed. As I believe I mentioned a year or so ago, I was once stung from the inside of a queen cell which I'd excised from the comb to pass to a friend. It gave far more severe, widespread & persistent pain than any worker sting I ever experienced. R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 21:36:41 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While the points made by Tim, Dan, and Garrett may have been valid positions for beekeepers a few years ago, they illustrate the danger of blithely applying "experience" to apparently similar, but new and very different substances. All chemicals are not created equal. Claiming that experience with herbicides, antibiotics, and other types of pesticides prepares one for things like Checkmite is like claiming that ownership of a kitten qualifies one to be a circus lion tamer. The key word here is "organophosphate". Coumaphos ("Checkmite") is an organophosphate. Organophosphates are neurotoxins. They attack the nervous systems of mites. They can do the same thing to beekeepers. Organophosphates are so hazardous that the EPA says something that they have never said about any other pesticide. They admit that there IS no safe way to handle this class of chemicals. They are readily absorbed through the skin, but there is no type of glove that can protect you. The stuff goes right through all available types of protective gear. The effects of these toxins are cumulative, and even very tiny "doses" can build up to levels that cause serious nerve damage. Do a search of Bee-L's archives for the term "organophosphate" at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l&D=0, and read what has been said by beekeepers and researchers who have looked closely at this class of chemicals. Note that organophosphates got their start as "nerve gas", and only later were attempts made to sell them to agricultural markets as pesticides. Then read this page from U. Minn: http://www.extension.umn.edu/projects/mpiap/fqpa/workop.htm ...and note that the beekeeper (the one expected to "handle" the chemical) is the one taking the biggest risk. "Even with maximum feasible protective clothing and engineering controls, calculated risks for most OP [organophosphate] workers and handlers still exceed the Agency's level of concern. EPA believes that an across-the-board increase in risk mitigation measures is needed to protect occupational users of the OPs." I am not saying that we should abandon all chemicals. I myself enjoy many aspects of "better living through chemistry", starting every morning when I button a 60/40 cotton/poly shirt. But one must draw the line somewhere, and a wise person draws the line at the point where even the EPA says that "risks exceed the Agency's level of concern". This phrase is very rarely used. Keywords to use when searching the web for relevant information would be: cholinesterase inhibition organophosphate cumulative assessment organophosphate EPA The rest of agriculture realized that organophosphates were a very bad idea years ago. The emergency Section 18s for Checkmite were a desperate stop-gap measure, but no responsible person would ever consider even suggesting that these chemicals be approved for long-term use. This alone should be adequate warning to the beekeeper. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:28:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Future Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Tim and All With the greatest respect to Tim Vaughan and to those who can relate to what Tim says, I would say: To those who understand what I am saying regarding the horrific build up of pesticied and acaricides, no explanation is necessary. To those who do not, or do not care to understand, no explanation is possible. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 08:53:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sidney H Pullinger Subject: Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<> Not foolish, Gareth, but it does suggest you have not been very observant. Bees start queen cells even though they have no intention of swarming. They form small cups around the edges of the combs and then stop. You may see an egg in the cups which hints at swarming but not necessarily so as sometimes the eggs just disappear. The bees have changed their minds, perhaps due to a change in the weather, a heavy nectar flow or whatever. Only when you see larvae in the cells can you be certain that the bees are going to swarm and you have just a few days to decide how to stop them. If you want to prevent swarming (and who doesn't?) there are many ways open to you. I use a variant of the Demaree method. George Demaree published details of his method well over one hundred years ago so it has stood the test of time.It will be found in any good bee book. I have always used it and it is ideal for anyone with a few hives. << as such. An instinct. We do know why. It is an instinct but what are the morphological features of the instinct?>>> Many, many years ago, at a bee meeting I attended, the lecturer was asked how does the queen know which egg to lay. He said she used her antennae as callipers to gauge the width of the cell. He mentioned an experiment where the flagellum of one antenna was snipped off af'ter which the queen could not differentiate between the cells and laid her eggs anyhow. It struck me as an indecisive experiment as probably the removal of half an antenna might itself throw her off balance.I have never seen this in print and I have read a lot of books in my time so do not accept this as truth. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: FOLLICEL Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I MISSPELLED THE PRODUCT. SORRY. IT IS SPELLED FOLLICEL. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 22:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: requeening trouble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim and All, Many times we can analyze a problem IF we have got enough information. I do all the time over the phone with bee club members. I will try here. Tim wrote: This time I waited 5 days and released the queen. She was > imediately balled. 1. If enough time has passed for the hive to be completely absent of brood of any kind if you do not have laying workers yet they are not far off. Laying workers could be the problem. If so introduce your newly arrived queen (now in push in cage) into a nuc with brood from another hive and once established introduce the nuc into the hive OR simply forget requeening and combine with a newspaper with another hive Or shake the bees out and take the equipment. 2. The hive could be queenright. The queen which flew off could have returned and is in the hive OR the original queen is still in the hive and you missed her even with two times looking. Take all the frames out of the old hive, shake off the bees and run the bees through a queen excluder. Presto you should come up with the queen IF indeed the hive is queenright. Simply re cage the queen in the push in cage during the process and use later in the old hive or elsewhere if necessary. Sounds like a huge amount of work but the process will go fast and you will learn in the process. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Hives which are queenright will not except a new queen with a few exceptions (old queen with a pheromone problem being one exception)" "Advance stage laying workers are hard if not impossible to requeen" "Strong hives right before the honey flow can be a challenge to requeen" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 01:05:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: The future In-Reply-To: <200205180340.g4I3eAWi017260@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a hunch I'll be out of step with the majority of this list. I also agree with James that the scope given to a reply here is very limited. But I can't let it rest: Tim and others have to know there are those of us who disagree and are very concerned. I too was raised on a farm during the great introduction of chemical farming post WWII. We even provided experimental plots for USDA and California Extension service experiments. I remain astonished to still be alive and cancer free. I left farming for 30 years. Carson's book changed the way my Father looked at farming and practiced it. Our bee holding is very small. We do sell what honey we harvest; we do not move our bees around; we do treat (so far with Apistan) because we have a neighbor whose bees migrate from here (Portland, OR) to California and he is only a sometime user of various chemical treatments. I will not handle an OP, no matter how bad the situation gets and can afford to try other, labor intensive protocols in an effort to help our hives survive. The first problem I see in making an analysis of what future we as bee-keepers and humans face is our unwillingness to adopt a reasonable (responsible) time frame in which to judge the impact our practices have on our environment. I don't think most people appreciate the extremes to which our practices have damaged (or at least changed) the resources on which we depend for our existence. For example, we have just about exhausted the fresh water supply, both ground and surface, over much of the Western US. That tale is a combination of ignorance and the attempt to support too many people, not to mention the attempt massively to farm crops not suited to the land irrigated. We have behaved as though we were the only users of water which we believed was inexhaustible. The time it will take, if we were capable of giving our ground-water supplies a rest, to allow regeneration of the major aquifers exceeds the lifetimes of many, many generations. Our attempts to adopt the apparent efficiencies of industrial farming, have required application of manufactured fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides and the focus on a relatively few breeds or varieties of crops. We have invited attacks by predators and diseases which otherwise might have been kept at bay by variety. Not only that, but we have concentrated production on huge mono-crop lots. Bee-keepers too. So, while I was brought up using and depending on chemicals and the convenience of a single crop, I have become convinced it's foolish if not, ultimately, a death sentence for many species including our own. Is there a solution? Sure. Will it be adopted? Probably not in time. What is it? IMO we have to judge the efficiencies of mono-cropping in the very long term and include in our calculations the probable failure of most of the crops we now depend on. We need to understand that mono-cropping of anything demands dependence on methods which are destructive to the soil, the self-protective device of variety, and requires a dependence on machinery which itself mitigates against a mixture of crops. We have to realize our limitations and the limitations of our science as well as the finite nature of the resources on which we've been living a profligate life. As unpleasant as it sounds, we've managed to deplete huge quantities of nature in a very short time. We started our apiary when our urban garden failed as did our neighbor's orchard. Lawn services did a superb job marketing their scheduled services. They killed off almost all the insects, drove away the birds, and after we installed our first two hives, sprayed me through a fence and killed the bees. We objected, got the State to help curtail the activities of the lawn service and actually persuaded the manager of of the service active near us to treat on the basis of need, not time. A small victory. In one year the insects and birds returned, crops improved and most of our neighbors began making compost and inter-planting their gardens. It is not hard to adopt even large scale production of crops and livestock using mixed crops, integrated pest management, and vastly reduced irrigation. When we bought our place, the owner limited her garden production to what the slow well using conventional irrigation could support. We use drip exclusively and have at least quintupled the irrigated area. We use no pesticides at all (except in our hives) even though we are surrounded by pine forests, crop and pastureland because we select what grows well in our area and inter-plant our crops. We're willing to accept some insect damage the absence of which our mass marketers have made a criterion of judging what constitutes "good" produce. We raise primarily "heritage" breeds of livestock for practical reasons. Generally they are hardier than their finely tuned, modern counterparts. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt I'll survive another 20 years if no changes are made in the way the world has organized its food production. However, there will be some real changes within the lifetimes of my kids and grandchildren - none for the better. And if we don't start making those changes now, the mechanism for recovery will be thirst and starvation on a scale we haven't yet experienced as a species. As a policy, we should support smaller family farms, redistribute livestock production over broad areas so that waste products become an asset rather than a polluting liability. Whether large scale bee operations can survive in the long run is problematic. But changes in general agricultural practices and the organization (read down-sizing) of agricultural units together with more diversification might well lead to an increase in the number of farmer owned hives. (On that Southern California ranch, we hosted 4 yards for which the bee keeper paid us in honey. How times change.) He was producing varietal honey for a living. I don't believe we need to think in geological slices of time, but surely we need to manage our resources many generations in the future, not just a man's lifetime, this year, or quarter by quarter as we now seem to do. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: Hive Bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wayne, I assume you live in the north. Just pop them in half set one aside and reverse them. I would add my honey supers at the same time too. I use three brood chamber using unlimited broodnest management which encourages the queen to maximize brooding. But this brood nest setup may not be the best for someone limited on equipment and experience. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:49:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: What do you think the future will bring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, In fact, in this area > there are no wild honeybees (Apis). reply: Are you 100% certain? I doubt anyone has searched every nook and cranny in NY or elsewhere to make such a statement. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 08:20:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: What do you think the future will bring In-Reply-To: <200205182224.g4IMDvX2015491@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to All on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: Could you please explain how you arrived at these figures? And also, what do you mean by "commercial"? Isn't a commercial beekeeper anyone who *sells* honey? There are thousands of such people in the USA. Reply: I keep files and figures from the USDA Statistical Reporting Service and State Departments of Agric and follow them and their changes trends over the decades. As for what do I mean by 'commercial'.....Well the definition for commercial and hobbyist are: Commercial: One who operates sufficiently large number of colonies so that his entire time is devoted to beekeeping. Hobbyist: One who keeps bees for pleasure or occasional income. Always thought it was broken out this way for reporting: Hobbyist 1-49 Sideliner 50-299 Commercial 300 - up Peter also wrote: Could you explain what you mean by *complex hybrid*? Then, perhaps,we can determine if they occur in "nature". Reply: Well, like a complex mongrel, they are obtained by the crossing of three or more strains/races. We need to peel away the layers, expecially for those combined of more then 4+ and get back to working with simple hybrids as is broken out in Nature. Peter wrote: In fact, in this area there are no wild honeybees (Apis). Reply: I rather doubt that if really looked into for someone wanting to work bees. I do not believe your blanket statment is correct IMPOV. Doesn't work that way in the real world. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:04:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim and All, All pesticide use carries risk but I believe Jim is painting the wrong picture about Checkmite. I will try to explain. As a grower and at times uses pesticides I see a big difference in spraying a large orchard with an organophosphate and simply installing a strip in a beehive. Last week I did some Apple tree spraying and as usual problems with the sprayer. Ended up getting spray on me even with safeguards. I do not see that kind of risk with one Checkmite strip. As I posted earlier on Bee-L my partner and I do not touch the checkmite strip but use a 20 inch pair of needles nose pliers sold by Harbour freight. Again as I posted before on Bee-L the EPA's concern about the section 18 was not the safety issue as much as the fact that the strip would be disposed of properly when the treatment was done as too much organophosphate is getting into the ground . They did not want the checkmite strip tossed on the ground at the end of the treatment period. > All chemicals are not created equal. Claiming that experience with > herbicides, antibiotics, and other types of pesticides prepares one for > things like Checkmite is like claiming that ownership of a kitten qualifies > one to be a circus lion tamer. Had to chuckle here as there are MANY chemicals used which are worse than coumaphos used in agriculture. >They admit that there IS no safe way to handle this class of chemicals. This is totally untrue. One method of spraying used by orchards is with a tractor with a special cab with the only air comming in through a built into the cab resperator. I saw one of those demonstrated in Springfield , Missouri. Several are in use in Missouri. > They are readily absorbed through the skin, but there is no type of glove > that can protect you. The stuff goes right through all available types > of protective gear. Getting any type of pesticide on the skin is bad but I assure you there are clothing which will protect from sprays but they are hot and awkward to use. My catalog lists many pieces of apparel for organophosphate spraying. Jim wrote: > ...and note that the beekeeper (the one expected to "handle" the > chemical) is the one taking the biggest risk. I see a huge risk when using organophosphates in spray form to the sprayer but see a very minor risk to the beekeeper with a checkmite strip UNLESS the beekeeper puts his "Skoal" in his mouth with the same bare hand he installs the checkmite strip. You laugh but beekeepers helpers in Florida were getting sick and it was discovered they were installing Apistan strips with bare hands and putting Skoal in their mouth with the same hand. Seriously all labels should be in Spannish also. The rest of agriculture realized that organophosphates were a very > bad idea years ago. Agriculture did not like giving up the powerful organophosphates to spray with . The EPA is afraid of ground water contamination. Now those crops are grown in Mexico using organophosphates and shipped in for our use. All banned chemicals in the U.S. are in use in Mexico according to the source I talked to in doing this post. I wish the world could survive without chemicals but am a realist. Thanks for the post Jim. I am only trying to point out a few points after a lifetime of using pesticides. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:23:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Spacing frames of foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Robert Barnett, for your comments on my post about plastic foundation. I once was called to help a beginner who had bought new boxes with foundation and with packages of bees. He had, without intention, pushed all the frames to one side, shoulder to shoulder. The bees had drawn 11 combs in the hive! I always space my ten frames of wax foundation evenly when hiving swarms and they always draw them out just right. In the case I wrote about just now, the four frames of plastic foundation were inserted as two pairs within the preexisting 6 frames of old comb containing honey and/or brood. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Future Breeding (formerly -- Unk subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: The experts warn of heavy inbreeding, much as Lusby does. But the solution is not "further" isolation and selection, as she has advocated. The genetic base has to be "broadened", not narrowed. Hybridization and inbreeding are two seperate issues. Good traits are essential, but so is diversity. Reply: I have never said the solution is further "Isolation" and selection. Why is Peter putting words into my mouth? Yes, the genetic base has to be broadened and complex mongrels and hygridization peeled off to match Nature for what is done naturally in the field. Yes good traits are essential and so is diversity or variability within strains/races. Inbreeding is not a part of this, outbreeding is. For some basic thoughts on what I think, please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm published in Apiacta XXX pgs 20-29, 1995 titled: Field Breeding Basics for Honeybees Using Colony Thermodynamics Within the Transition zones. (don't forget to hit with arrow any underlined figs, etc to bring up supporting charts and grafts. also please see Chapter 8 located at: http://beesource.com/pov/lusby/ Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:17:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: 49er news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Since quite a few of you email to me figured I'd let you all know this at once to save me a lot of typing: GREAT NEWS!!! Keith Malone just told us on Organicbeekerpers, that his bees are indeed drawning excellent 4.9mm foundation size or less in ALASKA! If Erik can do it in Sweden, and Hans-Otto in Norway, and now Keith Malone in Alaska, then I guess it must be able to be done by other commercial beekeepers for their bees, to place them back to natural sizing parameters in Northern Climates to combat parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases without having to use ALL various treatments i.e. drugs,essential oils, acids, chemicals and even FGMO. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:30:10 -0700 Reply-To: Pahl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pahl Subject: Moving brood from strong to weak hive MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am a hobbyist with a weak hive and a very strong hive. The weak hive went down due to having an old, weak queen which didn't lay in the spring leaving a weak, small colony. This hive was requeened about 4 weeks ago but the amount of brood has not increased as I expected. The queen seems to be laying OK so I am thinking that she just doesn't have a big enough cluster to raise more young. I've thought about moving some capped brood from the strong hive to the weak one, but I am afraid the cluster in the weak hive already has as much brood as it can cover. What will happen if I take a frame or two of bees along with the brood into the weak hive? Is this done? Is it tricky? If so, what special procedure is best to follow? Is this just another case of splitting the strong hive to build up a weak one, i.e., moving one entire queenless brood box from the strong hive to the weak hive.with a queen? A similar question was asked by Paul Nicholson Feb 2, 1999 and there was one reply from a UK beekeeper. His reply was interesting but, to me, seemed quite unconventional so I am asking the list again for advice. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 19:38:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Native bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The question of native or indigenous species is only of importance if you study or care about ecology. If you don't, it would appear meaningless. I would suggest a distinction based on whether or not a species was introduced by mankind. Non-introduced species often have come from other areas, but slowly, and with less disastrous consequences on the balance of a given region's native species. As far as the garden of Eden is concerned, I always thought it was in Mesopotamia -- present day Iraq. Which would still be Paradise if not for the harm done by human folly -- or so the story goes. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi Curtis I bought my copper gluconate from a chemical distributor, name of the = company is Wilken scientific LTD inPawtuckat Rhode Island.but any large = chemical co. will have this chemical george ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:26:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: what to feed bees while I'm away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, I noted that you DISAGREED with me about feeding a package CONTINUOUSLY all the way to September. You "implied" that this was done always in just 2 deep boxes. That is WRONG. I want a package to draw at least 30 deep frames, or 40 medium frames before it enters the winter cluster. Again, I am writing on behalf of beginner beekeepers, who have NO drawn comb, and are totally dependent on getting foundation drawn. Just drying to point out the difference. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 07:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sid and All, Sid wrote: > Many, many years ago, at a bee meeting I attended, the lecturer was asked how does the queen know which egg to lay. He said she used her antennae as > callipers to gauge the width of the cell. There are at least two other theories as to the way the queen decides which type of egg to lay. 1. inspection of the cell prior to egg laying with her forelegs (Koeniger 1969,1970) 2. by the angle of her abdomen during oviposition( Hive and the Honey Bee 1992 pg. 80) Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:06:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: No eggs, larva, or brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, In my PINK PAGES just last month, I wrote about the TIME that might elapse between a swarm and a new queen laying eggs. This can easily be a time as long as 25 days. So often, beekeepers requeen when there is a virgin queen in the colony and hence the new bought queen is killed. If you have followed my writings, you know that I am extremely STRONG on having all queens MARKED, so you never have to guess as to "what queen is this one?" I say that to you now - MARK YOUR QUEEN. Yellow is the proper color for 2002. A LAYING queen should start laying within 2 days after being released from her queen cage. There is no finer queen breeder in the entire U.S. than Reg Willbanks. I wish I had a good answer for you. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:55:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andreas_Sch=FCck?= Subject: Re: ant control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kathy, if your hives are over stands, clean thoroughly underneath the hives and dust any product that contains DZN or diazinon, making a circle around the legs. Andreas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 07:45:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: copper gluconate In-Reply-To: <200205190401.g4J401Wo022574@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" copper gluconate was discussed at length in previous posts. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:30:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This dead horse has been kicked often, and this is just one more time. So I will get my mine in, especially since we have long since passed from fact to hyperbole, which always makes for fun reading. When I was in grade school, the science textbook I read proclaimed universal famine and the complete depletion of all our minerals and oil would take place in the mid 1970's. No big deal since this was the 1940's so we could enjoy ourselves till then. They also proclaimed that the population of the earth would increase exponentially so there would be no breathing space. Soylent green, anyone? The problem with most predictions is they operate from the known and extrapolate with no understanding of the future. Technology becomes steady-state. And prejudices are built in to the prediction. Who could have predicted then that oil reserves now are enough to support the world for another hundred to 250 years, depending on who you listen to? Or that there is enough natural gas reserves to last 10,000 years (yes, that is 10,000. This info is from Technology, an excellent MIT mag.). Or that most of the western nations have either zero or negative population growth. Estimates say that the earth could support well in excess of 25 billion people (some say as high as 35 billion). We sure have room for about half that in Maine. But with current population trends, we are more likely to settle out around 10 billion (not Maine, but the world). As far as materials, many metals are in a glut status and not scarce at all. Add in GMO (might as well start another firestorm) other energy technologies (including nuclear and fusion), new materials, etc. and the future looks rather good. I like the saying that an optimist sees the glass half empty, the pessimist half full and the engineer says use a smaller glass. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:33:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG wrote: > copper gluconate was discussed at length in previous posts. See: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=copper+gluconate&s=&f= &a=&b= Aaron Morris - thinking archives, use 'em early, use 'em often! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:04:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Future In-Reply-To: <200205201118.g4KBIpWi017657@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All Tom Barrett wrote: To those who understand what I am saying regarding the horrific build up ofpesticied and acaricides, no explanation is necessary. To those who do not,or do not care to understand, no explanation is possible. Reply: I would like to add: When the crash comes and I see nothing beyond coumaphos stronger, and the pesticides/pestilence does it's thing with mass colonies crashing worldwide, there will be crying and wailing and fits of temper, and yes perhaps a tightening of food and much higher food prices. The cards are cast now, there is no going backwards down the pesticide treadmill from hard chemicals and it will be a horrific fight to get off of the soft ones. Sincerely hope, some of you others make it! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:35:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Aaron Morris - thinking archives, use 'em early, use 'em often! It is interesting to look at the archives when one of these alternative treatments pops up. They are unfortunately fairly predictable with exceptional efficacy pronounced by someone and that is followed by anecdotal evidence that it is indeed the holy grail of Varroa control. Then someone runs a trail or cites one already run and it does not pan out. Then the question pops up again and someone cites anecdotal evidence that someone tried it and it works. And the cycle starts anew. Except occasionally the questioner is directed to the archives and spoils all our fun. Bill Truesdell - thinking that if everyone searched the archives every time there never would be any posts. All those dead horses would stay dead. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:55:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bumble Subject: Re: copper gluconate In-Reply-To: <200205201415.g4KE3NYM022017@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said " copper gluconate was discussed at length in previous posts." Well if you guys consider that discussion lengthy I wonder what you would call the discussions on open mesh floors that has been had time and time again and still rears it's head. As a beehaver with far fewer years experience than your esteemed selves, I came across the report at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/cupric_salts.pdf and after examining it thought that the research looked thorough and the benefits worth investigating. Following on from my second posting I received two replies in favour of it's usage and none to the contrary. Surely some ideas need to be looked at again in light of peoples experience since they were first mooted, otherwise we would all still believe that the earth is flat and was created in six days, or more recently that if you travel at speeds greater than 14mph you will be unable to breath! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: > All pesticide use carries risk but I believe Jim is painting the wrong > picture about Checkmite. I will try to explain. > ...As I posted earlier on Bee-L my partner and I do not touch the checkmite > strip but use a 20 inch pair of needles nose pliers sold by Harbour freight. It looks like you have a handling approach that needs to appear in Section 18 renewals, and hence, on labels. If one must use Checkmite, warning them to not touch the strips is clearly an improvement over the current label instructions. If I was "painting the wrong picture", why do you try to avoid all contact with Checkmite strips? Sounds to me like you are well-informed on the hazards (as you are on so much of beekeeping). >>They (the EPA) admit that there IS no safe way to handle this class >> of chemicals. > This is totally untrue. Hey, I was just quoting the EPA. Argue the point with them. If someone thinks that they have a way to protect workers and farmers from organophosphates, great! > One method of spraying used by orchards is with a tractor with a > special cab with the only air comming in through a built into the > cab resperator. I saw one of those demonstrated in Springfield , > Missouri. I saw something similar in the 1970s - they called it an "Apollo 11 Lunar Lander". :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:55:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Feeding bees all summer In-Reply-To: <200205201142.g4KBIpZ2017657@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I occasionally read suggestions on this list that we feed package bees sugar syrup all the way to September. Is this assuming that the package is not able to bring in adequate nectar on its own? In my short beekeeping career, I've only purchased three packages, but two of the three built up quickly enough to put honey in supers for me. My question is, if I continue to feed sugar water all summer long, how do I know that what's in my supers is pure honey? Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:48:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: what to feed bees while I'm away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello George and All, George wrote: > You "implied" that this was done always in just 2 deep boxes. That is WRONG. > I want a package to draw at least 30 deep frames, or 40 medium frames before it enters the winter cluster. I really did not realize you were getting three deeps drawn. Sorry. In that case you would need to feed longer. I never use three deeps in the honey season and I will explain why. Without heavy spring feeding your whole honey crop can at times fit nicely in three deep boxes along with the brood nest. I get calls about once a year from a beekeeper using three deeps which says his bees will not go through the queen excluder . They have no need to use supers until late in our honey flow. Once in a while I get the first super of honey put in the two deep boxes instead of supers as bees usually only go into supers when room around the brood oval is full plus outside cluster frames. My method with packages (only packages): Install, feed until the single is full of brood and super for honey flow in a single deep. I never want more feed than the bees need so I can get around 8-9 frames of brood. I feed only enough to make the bees think a flow is on AND not store syrup other than around the brood oval. After the main honey flow: Remove and extract the honey crop. Put the second box of foundation on and feed until comb drawn and full of syrup for winter. I can't afford to miss a year of *honey getting*. I highly respect your beekeeping abilities George but there are many ways to keep bees and all work with their pro's and con's which beekeepers love to discuss. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Gloves and Coumaphos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I suspect that many beekeepers do not take Coumaphos seriously enough. I know at least one beekeeper who refuses to put on gloves when applying the strips and handles them with a pair of pliers. To me, this is foolishness. Personally, I don't use very much of this product but even so, I have had cholinesterase baseline testing done so that I can have my cholinesterase levels tested at any time to guard against the harmful effects. On the other hand, I believe the product can be used safely. James Fischer wrote: >Organophosphates are so hazardous that the EPA says something that >they have never said about any other pesticide. They admit that >there IS no safe way to handle this class of chemicals. They are >readily absorbed through the skin, but there is no type of glove >that can protect you. The stuff goes right through all available >types of protective gear. I would like to see these assertions backed up with some documentation. This is a pretty serious statement to make, and not support in any way. I am under the impression that heavy green nitrile gloves are adequate protection against Coumaphos strips. All the same, I wouldn't be surprised if beekeepers are applying these strips wearing leather gloves, which would probably be worse than no gloves at all. pb -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 23:10:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Stung by the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The main thing a first time handler of a queen should consider is not hurting the queen rather than thinking they are going to get stung by the queen at any time. Hi again Bob: Well yes, I completely agree with you on that. While it wouldn’t be correct to say a queen would ‘absolutely’ never sting, it’s probably not incorrect to say she would ‘virtually’ never sting a handler. My comment was simply made to do a little mindless bragging. Being stung by a queen, in my opinion, should be considered a badge of honor! Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I am enjoying the discussion on organophates. So the next question that begs to be asked is this. Since we know that wax absorbs chemicals. If a beekeeper uses chemical spring and fall. How often does the wax need to be changed to help avoid over saturation of chemicals in the wax. Along with this would the time be different if a person rotates chemicals spring and fall. I believe that it is very important to keep the chemical levels low in the wax so as not to encourage resistance. I have asked this to several beekeepers and got unsatisfactory answers, in my opinion, such as change when light no longer shows through. Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:21:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Microwaves & sugar syrup. In-Reply-To: <200205182226.g4IMDvXG015491@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:27 PM 5/16/02 -0400, you wrote: >Is there any risk in heating sugar syrup up in a microwave oven (to better >dissolve the sugar) ? As with heating most anything in the microwave there is a risk of burning it. The trick is not to heat it too much, don't heat it so it's too hot to touch. Warm is plenty. The best way would simply be to warm the water first, then add the sugar. I do find warm water makes things much easier when making 2:1 (though hot tap water is enough), it's not necessary with 1:1. Just agitating the water for a couple of minutes is enough. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:33:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Wild Apis in NY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Some people questioned my statement that there are no wild Apis honey bees in my region. Well, I don't live in a box. I have hiked the hills of this region in all sorts of weather for ten years and I have *never* seen a bee's nest in a tree or cave. When I lived in San Diego, I saw them all the time, so I got pretty good at spotting them by the flight activity. Usually, what swarms come out end up in the wall of some old house. In this region they seldom make it through the winter. This winter, being especially mild, perhaps some did. I was called to go look at a "wild" bee hive in an old house this spring. When I got there, they were already dead, starved. Quite a few years ago, Tom Seeley did an inventory of feral colonies in an area of forest not far from here. He told me he wanted to go back and do it again. When I said I didn't think any bees would be left there, he agreed that was very likely. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:35:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: complex mongrels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" D. Lusby writes: >the genetic base has to be broadened and complex mongrels and >hygridization peeled off to match Nature for what is done naturally >in the field. Yes good traits are essential and so is diversity or >variability within strains/races. Inbreeding is not a part of this, >outbreeding is. This is not easily understood by someone not familiar with your terminology. Normally, when one wants to broaden the genetic base, one imports bees from other geographic areas. Do you do this? I was under the impression that you avoided bees from other regions, preferring to gather them from the hills around Tuscon. When you say: "complex mongrels and hygridization peeled off" I don't think anyone has any idea what you are talking about. I certainly don't. It sounds like you are doing some sort of selection, but based on what characteristics, is not clear. How do you recognize a "complex mongrel" and how do you "peel off" hybridization? If you are sincere about wanting to contribute to the study of bee breeding you should try to use terms that other people can understand. pb -- Peter Borst Ithaca, NY plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:34:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garrett M Martin wrote: > Since we know that wax absorbs chemicals. Not an absolute, in fact far from it. Depends on the chemical. Trapping I can go along with but there is a big difference between mechanical trapping (usually on the surface) and absorption. More like dust on a table than water in a paper towel. Honey is more likely to have chemicals than wax. More of it and it is more in contact with them. Even then chemicals may not be absorbed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:53:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Garrett and All, >such as change when light no longer shows through. The beekeeper which told you the above Garrett is badly misinformed. He must have wax contamination confused with a dirty auto air filter. There are tests for wax contamination. Many buyers of wax are doing *random* tests but none are doing tests for contamination on *All* wax to my knowledge. Sadly most beekeepers trade melted down brood comb for foundation and sell the cappings wax to other than foundation makers. People using beeswax for cosmetics and lotions should insist on only cappings wax. Finding fluvalinate and coumaphos levels in brood comb is being done by several people . The U.S.D.A. and researchers are looking. Also Bayer and Zoecon. There is what the USDA consider a acceptable level (maybe not acceptable to Dee). The only times they have found above acceptable levels has been in cases involving misuse (Florida Apiary inspectors) of sheep dip instead of a approved strip. Even a apple which has been sprayed one time (many are given 14 plus treatments) has a pesticide level which can be detected. Many humans carry a ppb pesticide level I have been told. In my opinion the point at which agriculture went wrong is the using of chemicals as a way of life instead of using only when needed. The beekeeper needs to monitor varroa , set up a program to eliminate the use of chemicals (SMR, 4.9 cell size, Russian queens , drone brood removal, mineral oil or whatever) and then use chemicals as the last line of defense. Many beekeepers are simply sticking in strips twice a year , not testing, and switching chemicals when they hear resistance is their area. To get back to Garrett's question a simple test could be developed with which the beekeeper could test his beeswax but without a order for around a million test kits in advance I do not believe you will see the test kit. Also you would most likely need a different test kit for fluvalinate. Maybe a chemist on the list could come up with a way we could test with a few drops of a chemical we could purchase at a drugstore or easily obtain? Sincerely, Bob Harrison The researchers at the Arkansas apple research station have reported they can produce 95% pest free apples with two sprays early in a season but few apple growers have got *on board*. Is the other 5% worth the risk to the help and the public PLUS the expense. Contact Guy Ames at Ames Nursery in Arkansas for IPM details. Phrase all beekeepers doing pollination have heard from apple growers: "Got to get those bees out so I can get the poison on" The word poison and pesticide goes together like bread and butter. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:40:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Chemical/wax In-Reply-To: <200205211302.g4LCjOYE023343@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:34 AM 5/21/02 -0400, you wrote: >Garrett M Martin wrote: > >> Since we know that wax absorbs chemicals. >Bill Truesdall wrote>Not an absolute, in fact far from it. Depends on the chemical. .... and >Honey is more likely to have chemicals than wax. This last statement is an oversimplification, and for the most part, its simply untrue. Honey and wax have very different properties in terms of contact with, contamination by, and residual times. Chemist talk about partitioning coefficients, and in this case, its comparing apples and oranges. Both can become contaminated with miticides, pesticides, industrial chemicals, military unique chemicals, and so on. There may be more honey, but it normally only shows the chemicals that can be taken up systemically from the soil, with some direct contamination from dusts and possibly air. The good news is that in general, levels of contamination of honey/nectar are low compared to other components of the hive -- wax, pollen, the bees themselves. There are exceptions, such as radioactive materials in honey nectar in samples collected from Europe -- incredibly low levels, but measurable. On military sites, tritium may show up in the honey. Some organophosphate insecticides may get into the honey. Now, whereas honey is a liquid, carbohydrate mixture, wax is considered to be lipophilic. And here's the rub, certain chemicals partition into the wax because it is a "lipophilic sink" -- takes it right up and holds onto it. Also, wax can be many years old. So although there may be more honey than wax, anything ever stored in the cells are possible points of contaminant exchange with the wax -- nectar and honey, pollen, even bits of propolis used in lining brood cells. These materials may reside for long periods in the wax, and new sources of potential contaminants occur every year and from different sources, especially is the colonies are moved around. Overall, wax contamination levels tend to be higher in the spring. As bee clean out cells and rebuild, the contaminant levels may go down -- the bees are chewing out some of the old wax, putting in some new. They aren't so much cleaning out the contaminants, but rather the contaminants are being diluted by the addition of new wax. As per tests - $35/sample for metals like lead, $200-1000 for organics, depending on how many categories of organics need to be looked at. No one analysis procedure can do more than a related group of chemicals - that may be as few as individual chemicals like fluvalinate or imidacloprid, groups such as chlorinated pesticides (few dozen at the most, with maybe 1-6 showing up in measurable amounts, to a couple of hundred volatile chemicals. As per the color test - yes, some simple test could be developed, at a high cost, with little chance of enough sales to beekeepers to recoup the investment. Only hope might be a creative, retired chemist, who could work in her/his garage, donating their time, with little overhead -- that might get the test packet. Chemical industry and university groups have to pay salaries, overhead, etc. That adds up fast, and there's not much of a market out there. Even if every beekeeper ran tests, the sales would still be small compared to a pesticide for use in a garden. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Gloves and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > I suspect that many beekeepers do not take Coumaphos > seriously enough. I agree, but it is not the beekeeper's fault. The instructions are weak on warnings. I'd suggest starting them with "This may be the most hazardous item you have ever handled...", which is an accurate statement for the majority of beekeepers. > I have had cholinesterase baseline testing done... Only because you use Checkmite in bee hives (using, one would presume, "proper" gloves)? This is a level of concern much higher than anyone has ever expressed within my hearing. > On the other hand, I believe the product can be used safely. On the other hand, your feet voted differently on the issue. Your feet took you to the doctor's office, "just in case". > I would like to see these assertions backed up with some > documentation. Anyone who knows about cholinesterase screening and works in research at an Ivy League school need not ask mere beekeepers in the hinterlands for "documentation", but I'll cite some references if you'd like. The EPA says, in their summary on coumaphos: http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/op/coumaphos/summary.htm: "There are no registered uses of coumaphos on agricultural crops or in/around residences." and "Three out of nine worker exposure scenarios EXCEED THE AGENCY'S LEVEL OF CONCERN AT THE MAXIMUM LEVEL OF PROTECTION FEASIBLE. These scenarios are: applying liquids... applying dusts... loading/applying dusts with a mechanical duster..." The caps are mine. Search the entire EPA website for other uses of the phrase in caps. You will find only 2, both about coumaphos. While the Checkmite strips are clearly "lower risk" than dusts or liquid sprays, the unique factor that is "higher risk" is beekeepers. The archives of this list and of the usenet group alt.sci.argiculture.beekeeping are clear and compelling evidence that many beekeepers ignore labels, attempt to be "creative" in mite control efforts, and even use unapproved chemicals. So, I'll say it again. The Checkmite instructions need work. Lots of work. The Section 18 "label text" needs to be re-written, preferably by Darth Vader. The warnings should also be printed in large, bold text, to catch attention. So, to summarize: a) Beekeeping is a hobby for the overwhelming majority of beekeepers. They have been lulled by years of "experience" with relatively harmless substances like Apistan. b) The Section 18s permit the first and only use of coumaphos that is both "on agricultural crops" and, in many cases, "in/around residences". One can only call Checkmite a "consumer product". (Wow, from a nerve gas, banned by international treaties, to a consumer product! What marketing genius!) c) The verb "to use" is conjugated by beekeepers as follows in regard to any "treatment" for their bees: I properly use. You should use with care. He misused. They are using illegal stuff. If the labels on Checkmite are not worded in the clearest and strongest possible language, the industry as a whole will regret it. To quote Bogart, "...you'll regret it -- maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your life." jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:13:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Since we know that wax absorbs chemicals. > > Not an absolute, in fact far from it. Depends on the > chemical. That's as far as I'd recommend Bill's response. Harkening back to my college chem days (there were few of them and it was a long time ago) I remember the ROT, "Like dissolves like". I believe this supports Bill's assertion , "from it. Depends on the chemical." As far as what chemicals will more readily be dissolve/absorbed by wax vs. honey, I'd defer to those more knowledgeable of the subject matter than I. However I am wary of blanket statements such as, "Honey is more likely to have chemicals than wax." Continuing to shake the slim branch I'm on, I believe that honey more readily dissolves/absorbs/is contaminated by coumaphos and beeswax more readily is/absorbs/is contaminated by Apistan. I'm sure I will be corrected by those more in the know. Perhaps Jerry will set me straight. Obviously I (we?) could use a lesson here. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: observation colony and perspex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone any experience or knowledge of getting bees to live inside a > perspex container - in addition, getting them to climb up to a roof? I've used plexiglass (similar to perspex) for observation hives, and you may have simply not given the bees long enough to adjust. After a while, bees learn to climb on just about anything (glass, aluminum, whatever). I have yet to find a surface that is impossible for a bee to navigate, gum up with propolis, and force me to clean. Glass seems to be less prone to being gummed up than plastic, but they will always do a very professional job of "caulking" at the edges and joints. I've never made a "roof" from plexiglass or glass, as I tend to make the "roof" 100% 8-mesh with a sliding cover to prevent overheating and also prevent excessive heat loss when appropriate. The bees climb on an 8-mesh roof with both style and panache. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:26:02 +0100 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron and All > Continuing to shake the slim branch I'm on, I believe that honey more > readily dissolves/absorbs/is contaminated by coumaphos and beeswax > more readily is/absorbs/is contaminated by Apistan. Hmmmn ... to a degree, but it is just safer to say that the usual acaricides prefer to move into the wax but might be in the honey too. As always, a reference, it is just the way I was brought up ... http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/Acaricides_e.pdf A 47kb file, for which you will need a PDF reader. To try to distill the report, fluvalinate (Apistan) prefers brood comb over honey/feed by a ratio of between 1800 and 10,000 (to one). The other chemical of interest here is coumaphos (Perezin) which prefers comb to honey/feed by 300 to 2000 (to one). When Apistan was permanently left in, a plateau of about 50 mg/kg in brood combs was reached compared to an average of about 2 mg/kg when treated normally. Honey combs generally had 5-fold less than the brood combs for fluvalinate, 10-fold less for coumaphos. Some more facts: wax recovered from comb slightly concentrates the contamination, and propolis from treated hives has higher (3.4-fold) levels than the equivalent wax. Although levels in extracted honey were very low, there was concern that the strict German and Italian thresholds for coumaphos (0.01 mg/kg) would be breached. One more piece of data: the trend of acaricide contamination in wax samples was followed over years. Withdrawn acaricides were only slowly flushed from the system. What are the lessons? Use properly and the residues in the honey will be low. Use or sell honey in the comb and there is more of a problem. But surely the greatest risk is to the image of honey if we put such things in our colonies? Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:08:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: more on Coumaphos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James: Organophosphates are so hazardous that the EPA says something that they have never said about any other pesticide. They admit that there IS no safe way to handle this class of chemicals. Then he said: "There are no registered uses of coumaphos on agricultural crops or in/around residences." Comment: These are two different things. Coumaphos is not the only OP around. >17 organophosphate insecticides, as well as additional carbamates, are registered by the EPA for "residential" use, which includes use in and around homes and schools and on playgrounds, lawns, and gardens. (Dursban, the most heavily used insecticide in the country, is an organophosphate.) see: http://www.nrdc.org/health/pesticides/forgano.asp As far as Coumaphos, it is used on a variety of animals >Coumaphos is directly applied to animals or to swine bedding. Liquid formulations can be applied by high and low pressure hand wands, dip vats and back oilers/rubbers. Dust formulations can be applied by mechanical dusters, shaker cans and dust bags. > >Use Rates: Use rates range depending on animals treated and formulation type; the maximum label application rates range from 0.005 to 0.025 lb. a.i. per gallon for sprays or dips, 0.076 lb a.i. per gallon of oil for back rubbers, 0.000625 to 0.013 lb a.i. per animal for dust application, and 0.042 lb. a.i. per 1000 square feet of swine bedding treatment. see: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/op/coumaphos/overview.htm End note: Yes, I am concerned about cholinesterase. I would recommend regular monitoring to anyone who handles coumaphos. Also, have you cholesterol checked ! ; ) pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:48:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: More Info on EXORSECT (Follicel) Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the other e-mail I received. Coleene > Please go to www.exorsect.com > > That's where we place all the latest news. > Smoking seems to be the way forward with Exorsect impregnated wood chips. > Another area we are working on is with 38ml Sponge pads which I believe > are to carry Formic acid currently. > These evaporate by placing two into the hive - results look promising > with good mite fall. > > Where did you hear about us ? Where are you based ? Are you a > beekeeper or are you researching varroa ? > > Best Regards, > > Geoff Marginson > Marabo > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:45:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Fw: EXORSECT Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is some additional information for anyone who is interested. EXORSECT and Follicel are the same compound. I have another e-mail that I will forward. It addresses delivery. Coleene Subject: RE: EXORSECT > Dear Coleene > Thank you for your inquiry about exorsect. We have two types of Exorsect - > one is a fly repellant, that we are just now bringing into North America. > The other - "Exorsect Bee" is a treatment for removing Varroa Mites from bee > colonies. This product is available direct from our company whereas the fly > repellant will not be available for another month or so. > If you would care to call me Toll Free at 1-877-501-5003 between 7:30 am and > 4:30 pm PST, I can give you some further information. > > Sincerely > Phil Aldridge > Sales Manager > Integrated Bio Systems Inc. > Abbotsford. BC, Canada. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Davidson, Coleene [mailto:cdavidson@ppg.com] > Sent: May 20, 2002 9:24 AM > To: 'INTEGRATED BIO SYSTEMS INC.' > Subject: EXORSECT > > > IS EXORSECT AVAILABLE IN THE US. IF NOT, I AM IN MICHIGAN AND AM INTERESTED > IN THE CLOSEST DISTRIBUTOR IN ONTARION-SAULT ST. MARIE, ONTERIO PERHAPS? > > PLEASE REPLY TO MY HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS: > > CEDAVIDSON@NETONECOM.NET > > THANK YOU, > COLEENE DAVIDSON > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > > At 08:34 AM 5/21/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Garrett M Martin wrote: > > > >> Since we know that wax absorbs chemicals. > >Bill Truesdall wrote>Not an absolute, in fact far from it. Depends on the > chemical. > .... and > >Honey is more likely to have chemicals than wax. > > This last statement is an oversimplification, and for the most part, its > simply untrue. > > Honey and wax have very different properties in terms of contact with, > contamination by, and residual times. Chemist talk about partitioning > coefficients, and in this case, its comparing apples and oranges. Agree. I was looking at the immediate effect, not long term because there is a lot more honey than wax hence a higher probability of contamination. I should have quit, as Aaron noted, after "depends on the chemical". Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:09:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L is about Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder: BEE-L is about bees and beekeeping. Please, please, please read the new and improved guidelines at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ before you write an essay about World Peace and send it to BEE-L. We have recently received some excellent posts about viruses, and chemicals, and the future of world civilisation, but we could not see what they have to do with bees and beekeeping, and so, sadly, they did not make the cut. BEE-L is about bees and beekeeping. Just for the record: All viewpoints, extreme or conventional, are welcome on BEE-L and will be approved as long as they are politely expressed, directly related to bees and or beekeeping and otherwise meet the guidelines. Sometimes we give a little latitude to see where something will lead, but when we see that a thread is leaving the topic of bees and beekeeping, or violates the guidelines, it dies at that point. Those who wish to pursue it are welcome to take it off-list. A reminder: Because BEE-L does *not* endorse any particular viewpoint and provides articles primarily for your entertainment and discussion, members are reminded to check the facts before believing or acting on anything read on BEE-L Again, we have had some really good articles lately and we'd like to thank those who have contributed whether their posts made the list or not. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:33:50 GMT Reply-To: MacKenzie Calhoun Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MacKenzie Calhoun Subject: Beetles fooling bees into feeding them MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, list, take a look at the fascinating article in Nature about small hive beetles fooling bees into giving them a meal. You can find the article at http://www.nature.com/nsu/020513/020513-7.html The article lists the small hive beetle as "the fastest growing honey bee pest in the US." Mac ===== MacKenzie Calhoun Microsoft=Varroa -- Linux=Apistan