From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:47:42 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7114909C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sq010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0205D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 114661 Lines: 2501 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:05:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Beetles fooling bees into feeding them Comments: To: MacKenzie Calhoun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mac and All, > The article lists the small hive beetle as "the fastest growing honey bee > pest in the US." Fastest growing but small pest compared to varroa (in my opinion). The article is out of date but the information correct. Documented spread now is 25 plus states (instead of six). I have been making design changes in the way I process honey and recommend others in areas of the small hive beetle do likewise. I do not see a big problem in the field except in weak hives. I predict eventually many hives will carry a slight infestation (as is the case now in Florida). Many IPM methods are talked about on the Florida Beekeepers list. Read the article Mac posted and then read about the small hive beetle on Doc's Florida Beekeepers list for methods not (yet) talked about on Bee-L. FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: more on Coumaphos In-Reply-To: <200205212142.g4LGJWqM029273@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Earlier this year, EPA's initial calculations resulted in an agreement with Dow Agrichemical, the maker of chlorpyrifos (under the trade name Dursban), to discontinue marketing the pesticide for all indoor uses. The agreement permitted stores to sell products already in stock...." http://www.ecotopics.com/articles/flea_control.htm Not just the fringe groups are pushing to have all OP's banned for use on pets (and bees). K. Oland -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst 17 organophosphate insecticides, as well as additional carbamates, are registered by the EPA for "residential" use, which includes use in and around homes and schools and on playgrounds, lawns, and gardens. (Dursban, the most heavily used insecticide in the country, is an organophosphate.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:33:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemical/wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > To try to distill the report, fluvalinate (Apistan) prefers brood comb over > honey/feed by a ratio of between 1800 and 10,000 (to one). The other > chemical of interest here is coumaphos (Perezin) which prefers comb to > honey/feed by 300 to 2000 (to one). > What are the lessons? Use properly and the residues in the honey will be > low. The key is the last statement. Both formulations are for the hive interior. The problem is that some beekeepers are using pesticides in their water based, spray formulation as opposed to the commercial manufactured strips. That changes the dynamics. (I know that there has been discussion about misuse not causing the problems we have seen with resistant Varroa, but I believe it is the reason. Both are available in different formulations and used in agriculture. Too much anecdotal evidence.) Even so, wax will end up with the contamination. It stays while nectar, pollen and honey are transient. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:20:23 -0400 Reply-To: kgbenson@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith G. Benson" Subject: re-combining colonies after a swarm Re-combining swarms. Due to my inexperience in beekeeping, and especially southern beekeeping, I induced a swarm from a nuc that I had recently purchased. I was ignorant of the honey flow around here early in the season and allowed the nuc to become packed with honey. By the time I discovered it, the colony was making their own plans. The colony was placed in a standard deep with what I thought was plenty of room, but the queen cells I noticed at that time told the tale. I destroyed them at the time I moved the bees into their new digs, but as I have read in a number of spaces, they had made up their minds and were leaving. Sure enough, the next day they were off! Well, as much as I was kicking myself for my sloppy beekeeping, I was very pleased that they chose to issue forth right in front of me! It was incredible. I waited till they settled on a branch and re-hived them. Re-hiving a swarm is definitely a terrific experience. They are drinking syrup and pulling foundation with great speed. The group they left behind is doing well also. Both groups cover approximately 4-5 frames. I would prefer not to make any increases at this time and would like to re-combine the colonies. I was originally thinking about finding the new queen, if I did not kill her when removing cells, and eliminating her (the old queen is still young and produces fine brood, and I hold myself accountable for the swarming, not her genetics and such) as she may not be of the finest quality. Then I was going to use the newspaper method to re-combine. My concern is that there will be 4-5 complete frames in the upper and lower boxes, and 4-5 partially drawn frames in each box, i.e. foundation below part of the brood nest. I am told that this is a no-no. Of course I could always come back in a week or so later and move the frames around so as to have the least drawn frames up in the upper box. Any comments? or advice? Keith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:18:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: more on Exorsect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"No adverse effects were noted on the bees during the test period. The product is obviously effective against the mites and added to the fact that all the ingredients are food grade makes it a very good proposition for anyone wanting to produce biological honey, or just to provide a break treatment to slow down resistance to other products" > >Quoted by an Apriarist and Entomologist during Dec 2001. Any chance we could get the *name*of this "Apriarist and Entomologist" ? >EXORSECT > >A new product on the market, based on garlic, is available for the eradication of Aphids, but especially for greenfly and blackfly. The pungent herb, in the form of an environmentally friendly garden spray, is available from: > >The manufacturers, Marabou Limited, who have carried out extensive field trials, claim that the spray attacks the "spiritual centre" of the parasite and seems to destroy their will to live. It is also suitable for all plants, and works particularly well on roses. > >http://www.communigate.co.uk/london/fuchsia/page20.phtml Garlic? I wonder if it works on vampires? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:22:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: more on Exorsect + what about Perilla? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG 05/22/02 09:18AM >>> >"No adverse effects were noted on the bees during the test period. The product is obviously effective against the mites and added to the fact that all the ingredients are food grade makes it a very good proposition for anyone wanting to produce biological honey, or just to provide a break treatment to slow down resistance to other products" > >Quoted by an Apriarist and Entomologist during Dec 2001. ... >EXORSECT > >A new product on the market, based on garlic, is available for the eradication of Aphids, but especially for greenfly and blackfly. The pungent herb, in the form of an environmentally friendly garden spray, is available from: > >The manufacturers, Marabou Limited, who have carried out extensive field trials, ... >http://www.communigate.co.uk/london/fuchsia/page20.phtml This is interesting information, and heartening for those who would prefer to use effective less toxic controls (food grade?) I really don't care so much about what the manufacturers "think" about how it works as I do about whether or not the product actually does work effectively against mites. Is it only available from the UK? Speaking of botanical treatments for mites, whatever happened to Perilla? Is a product still in the process of being formulated? Perilla is a plant commonly grown and eaten in Asia. The common name is apparently the "Beefsteak Plant". It comes in red and green varieties and looks like mint or basil and is very pungent. The red variety is used to provide natural coloring for pickled plums in Japan. I first became acquainted with it when I lived in Japan for a while. Apparently an essential oil of this plant is extremely effective in controlling Varroa mites, but after the initial big splash of information on it, Perilla seems to have dropped off the radar screen. Has anyone heard any more about it? I happened to have been growing it in my vegetable garden at the time. In the meantime, I will just keep growing it, drying it, and using it in my smoker (what I don't eat). I have not performed any actual tests or experiments to quantitatively determine its efficacy, but since I started using it in my smoker (I throw in a small handful on top of the smoldering pine needles), I have not used any more mite strips and I have not seen any colony losses to mites. I know there are many many other factors which affect mite infestation, including bee genetics, location, climate and numerous others, but I know that I was having mite problems before I started using dried Perilla in my smoker a couple of years ago, and now I am not. For those interested, my source for Perilla seeds is the Kitazawa Seed Company in Oakland, California (I have been buying from them since 1973, and I have no stock in the company). I am sure there are many other sources. The plants reseed themselves very well for me. Fresh seeds seem to be important for germination. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:13:18 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger White MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Peter, > I am the Apiarist and Entomologist quoted here - If you have=20 > any further > questions or need any further information I would be glad to=20 > accommodate > you. > Best regards > Roger White FRES > Superbee Cyprus. >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:40:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205211235.g4LCAnY0022792@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: This is not easily understood by someone not familiar with your terminology. Normally, when one wants to broaden the genetic base, one imports bees from other geographic areas. Do you do this? Reply: No we do not. We use honeybees from our own geographic region in the feral. Do you think that geographic regions are small in genetics? Peter further wrote: When you say: "complex mongrels and hygridization peeled off" I don't think anyone has any idea what you are talking about. I certainly don't. It sounds like you are doing some sort of selection, but based on what characteristics, is not clear. Reply: Peter, I am talking retrogressive breeding here for areas of complex mongrelization where several races/strains of bees are determined to be. It should be a multi-step process beginning with separation of yellow races/strains from dark races/strains, followed by seperation of colour by caste size to be followed by separation of remaining bees by physical characteristics other than size. It is not an overnight process. Peter further wrote: How do you recognize a "complex mongrel" and how do you "peel off" hybridization? If you are sincere about wanting to contribute to the study of bee breeding you should try to use terms that other people can understand. Reply: A complex mongrel maybe obtained by the participation of three or more races/strains and one peels off hybridization by retrogressive breeding in a multi-tiered program over a span of several years. For more information please see Apiacta XXX, 20-29, 1995 Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:19:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: complex mongrels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dee Lusby writes: > Peter, I am talking retrogressive breeding here for areas > of complex mongrelization where several races/strains of > bees are determined to be. It should be a multi-step > process beginning with separation of yellow races/strains > from dark races/strains, followed by seperation of colour > by caste size to be followed by separation of remaining > bees by physical characteristics other than size. It is not > an overnight process. With all due, respect, have you read any books on bee breeding or talked with anyone involved in breeding? You still haven't defined your terminology. What do you mean by these words? It is hard enough to communicate using the *same* words, let alone a unique jargon no one understands. Just because you can confuse us, doesn't mean you are on to something. In conventional bee breeding there are several types of bees. Pure races, generally considered rare, are geographically isolated. A true hybrid would be obtained by crossing two such races, such as Brother Adam attempted throughout his career. A line bred bee is one in which certain characteristics, such as color, have been selected. In the Starline program, very narrow lines were developed by *inbreeding* and then crossed to produce *hybrids* after the model used for hybrid corn. This is a very complicated, labor intensive plan. What you call a "complex mongrel" is just the regular bee that everybody uses. It is a mix of the various races that have been used: Italian, Carniolan, etc. This sort is marketed as the "All-American" by Weavers of Texas. One thing about it, it is vigorous and not in-bred. It is not a true hybrid. When you say *retrogressive breeding" I take it to mean that you are trying to revert to some "previous type". This was studied heavily by Ruttner in connection with trying to restore the original European black bee (Apis mellifera mellifera) which had been heavily crossed with Carniolans. But with this program, there was a particular goal in mind, a particular type. What is the particular type you are after? How will you know if you have it? I would expect feral bees of Arizona to be a mix of African and American stock. From this, you are trying to separate out some particular type, using open mating? From what you have stated in the past, you apparently believe that there was some type of bee in Arizona before the arrival of the white man, and that you can somehow, through the miracle of bee breeding, restore it to its rightful place in the Southwest. How will you know if you have it? Has anyone ever seen this bee? What would it be like? These are not difficult questions, but ones you have neglected to answer. It appears to me that you are doing what everyone else is doing, trying to breed a particular bee that suits you. This is perfectly reasonable, but in an area saturated by African bees, I don't see how you will end up with anything but an African cross of some sort. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:28:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: copper gluconate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all Sorry for the delay in replying... local server problems. Copper gluconate is not one of the dead horses. I reckon we have not yet learned to make use of it's features to best effect. I reckon that in binary combination with other chemicals and/or as part of a multipronged approach there is some mileage to be had. Like so many other little niggles, this is another that requires proper testing. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:20:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: complex mongrels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With all due, respect, have you read any books on bee breeding or > talked with anyone involved in breeding? I don't know if Dee will answer this or not. At any rate, yes, she has. She has literally tons of material and she can find an article on any topic in a second. > You still haven't defined > your terminology. What do you mean by these words? It is hard enough > to communicate using the *same* words, let alone a unique jargon no > one understands. Just because you can confuse us, doesn't mean you > are on to something. This is a problem. I too sometimes have had with reading what Dee writes . Nonetheless, she is consistent in what she is saying, and apparently trying to describe things that other writers have not dealt with often or well. She does tend to use terms that sound strange, but I think it is worth the effort to try to understand. > What you call a "complex mongrel" is just the regular bee that > everybody uses. It is a mix of the various races that have been used: > Italian, Carniolan, etc. This sort is marketed as the "All-American" > by Weavers of Texas. One thing about it, it is vigorous and not > in-bred. It is not a true hybrid. Exactly. Do we have a term for it? If not, why not 'complex mongrel'. Say it a enough times, and you'll find you get used to it. It even starts to make sense. > When you say *retrogressive breeding" I take it to mean that you are > trying to revert to some "previous type". This was studied heavily by > Ruttner in connection with trying to restore the original European > black bee (Apis mellifera mellifera) which had been heavily crossed > with Carniolans. Well, I took this up with Dee and found that she has been fed that term by the scientists that were working with her on one of her Apiacta articles. I did not like it, but, again say it enough times, and it starts to sound familiar and reasonable, and once the context is explained, it makes sense. > But with this program, there was a particular goal in mind, a > particular type. What is the particular type you are after? How will > you know if you have it? I'm hoping Dee will answer this one, but after Moser's recent articles and the rediscovery of some of the old USDA papers, the idea of isolating some unique non-AHB feral types in pockets in the southern US is finding more support.. > I would expect feral bees of Arizona to be a > mix of African and American stock. From this, you are trying to > separate out some particular type, using open mating? That is what I first thought, and Dee did not initially rebut that very well. Moreover she has a wide range of ideas on this, ranging from conventional to imaginative. She has expressed many of them, but unfortunately the most off-the-wall ideas are the ones people pick up, debate, and remember. The middle of the road belief she has, and which I find very credible is that there are strains of small feral bees in her area that have been around a very long time, and which are not fully miscible with the various introduced bees. Mating naturally, they tend to separate like sand and gravel layers in a river or oil and water shaken, then allowed to settle in a jar. The mechanism of this separation is each strain's natural mating times, seasons, locales, altitudes, and patterns. Pheromones and behaviours in the hive reinforce this separation over time, and if man does not interfere, she believes that a local ecotype. (I am not sure this is exactly the correct word, see http://www.iowaprairienetwork.org/org/ecotype-position.htm ) will arise in each microclimate area, assuming that there is some separation by distance or obstacles. > From what you have stated in the past, you apparently believe that > there was some type of bee in Arizona before the arrival of the white > man, and that you can somehow, through the miracle of bee breeding, > restore it to its rightful place in the Southwest. Let's not be distracted by this idea. It is at the extreme end of a bundle of ideas that Dee is working on. Not being a scientist, or associated with any institution, she does not have to be careful what she says, and she throws ideas out to see what comes back. I know this is a foreign way for the scientific community, but it's Dee's way. For those of us used to more conservative ways and more careful use of words, it is easy to get distracted by minuteae and miss the gems. > How will you know > if you have it? Has anyone ever seen this bee? What would it be like? I think I have seen it, not that there is only one unique strain. It is small, quick and dark with long wings. We looked through a lot of Dee and Ed's hives. (see Bee Culture for June 2002) and I was impressed. > These are not difficult questions, but ones you have neglected to > answer. It appears to me that you are doing what everyone else is > doing, trying to breed a particular bee that suits you. This is > perfectly reasonable, but in an area saturated by African bees, I > don't see how you will end up with anything but an African cross of > some sort. Neither did I, but Dee has friends all over the world, and the more I look into this African question, the less I find it credible and the better Dee's somewhat strange sounding ideas sound. Sure, every passing wave of colonization by imported stock does leave its mark, but perhaps, and I am saying perhaps, after it is all over, given a chance and maybe some encouragement, the strains separate back out, just like oil and water shaken in a jar. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:26:10 -0400 Reply-To: OhioBeeFarmer Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Harvey... the news commentator said that Alabama's honey bees have been wiped out by a virus... anyone know what's up with that? Good Day! OhioBeeFarmer Getting youth involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:56:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: Dead Horses? I think Not. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Copper gluconate is not one of the dead horses. I reckon we have not yet > learned to make use of it's features to best effect.... > Like so many other little niggles, this is another that requires proper > testing. That's true. Most of the time, one study is not enough to prove anything and it takes time for an idea to be tested in the lab and in the field. Adony did some reasonably good work with copper salts and found no effect. Maybe there are other factors that are necessary to make it work. Others have reported some success. At any rate, I think that just because we have covered a bee-related topic on BEE-L does not mean we cannot or should not revisit it. Old topics are most welcome, and I hope that if someone wants to discuss something like, say FGMO, that he or she will read the archives for a few minutes first to see where we have been on this and go from there. IMO, we need to see some progress in a discussion, and not just get stalemated and/or get into the kind of "I am not", "You are so" argument that generates heat, wastes time, and leads nowhere. If a discussion gets to that point, we tend to cut it off for a time; otherwise, it can run on as long as it is productive and/or entertaining. We figure that BEE-L readers are people whose time has value, and who expect BEE-L posts to be worth reading. Most of us don't want mailboxes full of one-liners, pointless argument and redundancy. No topic is ever closed on BEE-L, but we don't just want to re-hash the same old debate unless there is something new to add, such as a personal experience or new references or new ideas on application, and such. Copper gluconate is a wide open topic, and the recent posts are most welcome. Keep 'em coming. We encourage all members to take a stab at posting if they have something that they think should interest hundreds of serious beekeepers around the world. There are no dead horses on BEE-L. If anyone can make *any* horse run, no matter how unlikely it looks, we'll watch, and we'll line up to place our bets! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: bees@oldmoose.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen Glater Subject: best tree to plant for my bees I want to plant a tree, and I was wondering what tree is considered the best for honey production? I live in eastern Massachusetts. I was considering the American Basswood (American Linden) but then read something about the nectar being so sweet that it often kills the bees. This seems odd to me, but I thought I'd ask. Any recommendations? Thanks. --glen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Stung by the queen In-Reply-To: <200205210359.g4L3SXXe015909@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In my early days of beekeeping (1950s), I caged thousands of queen bees for sale but got stung only several times. Never, to my recollection, did a queen aggressively sting me. I only got stung when I handled one without due caution. In other words, queens only stung defensively. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * "... scientific exploits can prevail only if they have a seminal effect * by being performed at a time when the social conditions are right." * * Ludwik Fleck, 1935 (1979) * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:57:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205231325.g4NCTTYk022834@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You still haven't defined > your terminology. What do you mean by these words? It is hard enough > to communicate using the *same* words, let alone a unique jargon no > one understands. Just because you can confuse us, doesn't mean you > are on to something. I think this one gets us all ... Her terminology is her own, but always consistent. If you read biobee or organicbeekeeping for a while, you finally get the meaning of most of it via context. But even there long time members are confused by her meanings (easy to do when she uses techniques of inbreeding to reduce her genetic variation and calls it broadening the genetic base). > When you say *retrogressive breeding" I take it to mean that you are > trying to revert to some "previous type". >From following many of Dee's posts this apparently describes breeding for smaller bees that will live on 4.9 foundation, "as nature designed them to do". Since her area is Africanized (and has been for quite a while), the open mating she uses has to have included the smaller Africanized bee. She intentionally then selects for these small bees on the queen side. As a result of her breeding, she has ended up with a line of small bees that coexists well with whatever mites are in her area without the aid of any chemicals, drone trapping or other means of human aided control. She also does not treat for AFB, just cutting out any open signs of such that she finds. Several of her posts have claimed she has proof her bee is not Africanized, but her bees also apparently have a unique wing morphometry (an extra vein is seen). This wing formation is her proof of finding the original feral American bee (prior to 1400 invasion by Europeans). I would be interested to see if any actual DNA analysis has been done on her bees - more than likely she has a cross between the newer AHB and some remnants of the bees originally introduced to Latin America by the Spaniards. Her biggest claim is that through the use of small cell foundation, anyone can breed out the bad characteristics of the bees they already have and get back to a more natural bee. This bee will then be able to remove mite infested brood on its own and never need treatment for varroa. Although not stated, I think the assumption also is that the smaller size will render them immune to tracheal mites, as the altered bee size will not accommodate them. More likely, her size selection has favored AHB (and she has since started selection for more gentle bees ... very seldom mentioned but I have seen one or two references and I'm sure she will comment), which are through some unknown mechanism more tolerant/resistant to mites. The ruthless selection process basically was -- let bees breed naturally and any hive that collapses let it die. I believe she went from around 900 hives down to around 100 before starting to build back up to a viable commercial level over several years. Others trying her techniques seem to be mostly hobbyists with 3-5 hives. They don't have the available number or genetic diversity (or location to her "ferals" except those in the local AZ area), so are relying on only using 4.9 foundation to breed their own strains of super bees that will toss out mite infected larva and bite legs off the mites so they cannot climb onto bees to infect them. I doubt it will work for most. Many seem to have lost some, most or all hives in just a year or so ... in a year or two that will probably approach 100% loss for most that truly do no treatments (part of her doctrine). Otherwise, we would be seeing pockets of resistant feral bees building back up (since they have had as long or longer exposure to the mites as her bees) and true ferals from prior to man-made foundation did exist in the US previously .. some of them had to have been on this more 'natural' cell size and had the genetic base to survive, if her hypothesis is true. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:00:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: National Honey Board News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Roundtable Participants Propose New Program Full details at: http://www.nhb.org/pressrm/rountable052102.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: BeeGenes to be sequenced! According to Prof. Gene Robinson, the honey bee genome project was approved by the National Human Genome Research Institute. You can read about it at: http://www.nhgri.nih.gov/NEWS/sequencing.html Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:30:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alabama Comments: To: OhioBeeFarmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Paul Harvey... the news commentator said that Alabama's honey bees have been > wiped out by a virus... anyone know what's up with that? I received many calls about what Paul said. I tuned in on a later broadcast of Paul Harvey the same day and Paul did not talk about the subject. I believe Paul is talking about mites or small hive beetle or received incorrect information from his source. With resistance raising its ugly head in the south it could be many beekeepers are seeing PMS which is the name given the virus stage (Shiminuki) when varroa levels rise past threshold. I am going *out on a limb* with the above but hard to believe Paul would know something which we haven't heard about. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Also the fact Paul dropped the information from his later broadcast indicates to me Paul might have been enlightened. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:21:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Dead Horses? I think Not. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: > Copper gluconate is a wide open topic, and the recent posts are most > welcome. Keep 'em coming. Although I received my sample of the salts I have never taken the time to experiment. I can not comment on the effectiveness of copper gluconate but can on the development of a systemic for varroa. I always did think a systemic solution to varroa was the best for the larger beekeeper because of the ease of application. Systemic was the best solution for ticks on dogs and cats. We certainly love our pets but to see them scratching themselves raw is hard for me to take. I tried the pennyroyal bag around the neck, rub them down with *skin so soft* and the soap baths but finally decided on the systemic way as best *for me*. Many USDA-ARS researchers thought a systemic for varroa is possible and we heard rumors of a systemic being registered but all rumors I guess. The systemic dream: Drop the systemic in a drum of syrup which you were going to feed anyway and *presto* end of varroa problem (and tracheal mite). Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: OhioBeeFarmer Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Re: Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I receive a direct mail that said: I heard the same broadcast. He, as did the Ag Dept, said that about 40% of the domestic bees are dead. I am a beekeeper in North Alabama. Acute and/or cronic paralysis virus. I hope the sender doesn't mind my forwarding. OhioBeeFarmer Getting youth involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html -------Original Message------- I received many calls about what Paul said. I tuned in on a later broadcast of Paul Harvey the same day and Paul did not talk about the subject. I believe Paul is talking about mites or small hive beetle or received incorrect information from his source. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:24:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Alabama Comments: To: OhioBeeFarmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, CPV is the most common virus which effects those hives with a high investation of varroa. We had very little virus problems before varroa although many viruses were identified by Bailey aand others before varroa. Most research was done in the U.K. looking for a solution to tracheal mites. I suspect there is more to the story than 40% of the domestic hives dead from viruses. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri "Show me state" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adriana Molina Subject: honeybees in Colombia (South America) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I=B4m just getting started with bees and I subscribed to BEE-L to try to = get whatever useful information...=20 Is there anyone who can share expierences on tropical beekeping? = Anything you can tell me about getting rid of africanized bees, diseases = here in the tropics, etc., I will be really grateful. Adriana Molina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: complex mongrels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Allen writes: >Dee has friends all over the world, and the more I look into this >African question, the less I find it credible and the better Dee's >somewhat strange sounding ideas sound. I am sorry but I fail to see how the number of friends somebody has - relates to the veracity of their arguments. Isn't this an ad hominem defense? Speaking of friends, an old friend of mine - Tom Glenn - gave up a successful and lucrative queen business when African bees moved into San Diego County. He reasoned that he could not, in good conscience, sell open mated queens with the *possibility* of African drones within range. This is an example of integrity. Other queen breeders continue to sell, even in areas surrounded by Africans. Bottom line, would you buy queens from someone from a know Africanized region? Maybe you already have. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 19:24:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Feeding bees all summer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Eugene, I delayed answering due to throat surgery to restore my speaking voice. Sorry! You are in Missouri which does not have much of a nectar flow in July and August. If you are starting packages on FOUNDATION rather than drawn comb, it would be VERY rare if your bees could drawn more than 20 frames of foundation on a nectar flow. Bees have to consume (eat) 8 pounds of honey to make and produce 1 pound of wax comb; and hence bees definitely do NOT build any wax comb unless there is a nectar flow, or an artificial nectar flow of 1:1 sugar syrup. Speaking for myself and all my "students" in my almost 70 years of teaching beekeeping, in my area in Maryland close to Washington, DC, there is no nectar flow after June 15th. Hence, when package bees are started in April on foundation, we feed 1:1 sugar syrup continuously to Labor Day in September in order to get 30-40 frames of foundation drawn and some filled with honey made from sugar syrup so that the colony is strong in November, gets through the winter easily, and makes a lot of honey the following spring. There are very few places anywhere in the whole U. S. that there is enough nectar flow spread over several months to get a package colony on FOUNDATION only strong for next spring without feeding sugar syrup over a long time. Sugar costs very little and now 3 pound packages cost $50, so I use sugar. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 21:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: complex mongrels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Karen writes: >more than likely she has a cross between the newer AHB and some >remnants of the bees originally introduced to Latin America by the >Spaniards. I did a very thorough search of the old bee journals and learned that bees were not present in California and Arizona prior to the gold rush of the 1850s. Dr. Wenner has told of this as well. The early importations of bees into Arizona were from Texas in the 1880s. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Spanish brought bees into the Southwest US at all. The moving of hives over long distances in the mountainous and desert regions of Mexico is simply something they did not undertake. Nor did they bring them to California by ship. It remained to enterprising Americans to do this. As you may know, the beekeeping world underwent a major revolution in the 1850s due to Langstroth and other's efforts. For more than a hundred years Arizona has had access to bees from all the same sources as everybody else. Why, therefore, would there be "remnants of Spanish bees" there, more than anywhere else? On the subject of DNA, I am afraid this technique has raised more questions than answers. The notion of distinct races of bees that we once believed may have to be entirely rewritten -- or the notion that DNA is the ultimate identification tool may be a mirage. In any case, it does not appear that these two notions are lining up neatly side by side. The complexities of tracking honey bee ancestry are illustrated in a study by N.M. Schiff and W.S. Sheppard (1993): They studied the genetic variation of feral populations in the southern U.S. in which 422 feral bee colonies sampled...from nine states (Florida was not included)... The results are as follows: 22% were of European honey bee races (Apis mellifera mellifera and Apis mellifera iberica)...considered "western" races... ~77% were of "eastern" races...A. mellifera carnica and A. mellifera ligustica... thought to make up the majority of the present U.S. commercial honey bee stock... ~1% African mtDNA was from the Egyptian honey bee, Apis mellifera lamarckii, not Apis mellifera scutellata..." see: Experientia, Vol. 49, pp. 530-532, (cited in APIS newsletter) http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis94/apjul94.htm#2 ] "any correlation of mtDNA types with bee morphometrics in feral populations is subject to considerable uncertainty" -- Tomas Mozer, Apicultural Consultant/Apiary Technician, University Of Florida Beelab IF YOU ARE STILL READING, CONSIDER THIS: >"A long term study was undertaken to determine whether a >varroa-tolerant honey bee population could be developed and >maintained via selective breeding and conventional beekeeping >practices, and without the use of other mite control strategies. The >results of this study conducted at an isolated site demonstrate that >it is relatively easy to find varroa-tolerant colonies, and to >produce and maintain varroa-tolerant strains of honey bees. This >Varroa tolerant population has survived for nearly five years with >mean annual infestation level between 6 and 7 percent." Erickson Jr, >E. (1999) Comment: What this means is: varroa resistant/tolerant bees can be found in *any* population of bees. No special bees (Spanish remnants) or special manipulations (small cell foundation) are required. In fact, attempting to explain the results by referring to these *other* factors obscures what is really going on: simple selection. I have never doubted that *this* is possible; in fact, it is our best hope. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 22:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: complex mongrels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Excellent post Peter and I hope we can all "Agree to disagree" as I do not believe *simple selection* will work but might over a very long time with luck (20 years). >From ABJ article (1999) This >Varroa tolerant population has survived for nearly five years with > >mean annual infestation level between 6 and 7 percent." Erickson Jr, > >E. (1999) This study IN MY OPINION is a joke as I said on Bee-L in 1999. It involved AHB bees and not European bees. Many other issues have been raised about the way the above study was carried out. > Peter wrote: > What this means is: varroa resistant/tolerant bees can be found in > *any* population of bees. results by referring to these *other* > factors obscures what is really going on: simple selection. I have > never doubted that *this* is possible; in fact, it is our best hope. My self and those researchers at Baton Rouge feel different. All those BUT Dr. Erickson found there were too many varibles in mite populations for simple selection to work in the short term. . One friend of mine dropped from 2000 hives to less than 200 before he gave up on simple selection. Finding SMR solved the problem of *simple selection*but finding SMR is beyound the abilities of many beekeepers. If *simple selection* had worked then there never would have been a need to isolate the two genes responsible for the SMR trait would there? . I find it most interesting that Dr. Erickson was able to do what no other researcher in the U.S. (including beekeepers) could do. Simple selection is not the answer from my experience and never worked for me. Simple selection alone never worked for Dee. We ALL believed back then as Peter does now that simple selection would work in all populations BUT we figured around 20 years would be the time frame back then. Dr. Erickson reported results right from the start doing the same as the rest of us. Has anyone ever received any of these varroa tolerant Dr. Erickson queens? Why not? Why did not we all raise queens from these bees? Research dollars were spent on years of research and success was *reported* send me a couple of those queens for testing and I will publish my findings on Bee-L. I will leave untreated and see the varroa load they carry and report when they die. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 01:29:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205240115.g4O1B4Wm010406@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Possibly due to movement of bees by priests between monasteries (after first importation into Mexico regions in 1500's or so). As you might imagine, they tend to have more of those in the southwest than here in the upper southeast, and the priests did import bees to Latin America due to inferior wax from the native bees (from the stingless bee, if I remember correctly). However, if you say there were no honey bees in AZ until the 1850's - Dee's theories are even less credible. I also believe the small cell is just a coincidental factor in her bee's resistance. However, if the "relative ease" part were entirely true, why bother with expensive inbred SMR queens -- just sign me up for a few queens from that study that lived 6 years with no treatment. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst There is no evidence whatsoever that the Spanish brought bees into the Southwest US at all. ...Why, therefore, would there be "remnants of Spanish bees" there, more than anywhere else? ... means is: varroa resistant/tolerant bees can be found in *any* population of bees. No special bees (Spanish remnants) or special manipulations (small cell foundation) are required. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: "simple selection" In-Reply-To: <200205240400.g4O3sPX8014169@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bob writes: >Research dollars were spent on years of research and success was *reported* >send me a couple of those queens for testing and I will publish my findings >on Bee-L. >I will leave untreated and see the varroa load they carry and report when >they die. I guess I was unclear when I mentioned selection for varroa. I did not mean to imply that no chemicals would be used to keep the hives alive. I have reported, as others have, that if we do not treat at all, the bees die and there is *no* selection possible. They all die. What I am talking about is breeding for resistance - not immunity.If one selects breeders from hives with low mite counts, this trait should be intensified. Also, it would help to start with a line known for resistance, like Russians. Also, "simple selection" is in no way simple. There has to be rigorous recording keeping and isolation from other beekeepers. It just means simple as opposed to line breeding or a hybrid program. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "simple selection" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter, Karen and All, Simple selection: >.If one selects breeders from hives with low mite counts, this trait > should be intensified I really believed in the late 1980's that simple selection would work, varroa tolerant bees could be found in all populations and the process could be completed within a few years. *Grandpa* beekeeper said simple selection would work. Dr. Shiminuki figured around 20 years. I believe now Dr. Shiminuki was correct in his hypothesis. Varroa populations grow and fall for many different reasons other than the bees themselves was what I found to be true. Varroa always infested the strongest of the hives first. Was the strongest less tolerant than the weakest I pondered? The strongest hives had the highest varroa loads so those were not used but when a weak (low varroa load) hive was fed continually the varroa load increased right away .. The lowest varroa loads were always the weakest and low production hives. Dr. Harbo realized the same thing and began to look closer at varroa reproduction. Without Dr. Harbo's discovery I would be still trying to select somehow from a strong hive with a slightly lower mite load than the strong hive next to it. To select properly I would need accurate information on the amount of brood (in all stages) and the population of the hive (possible but time consuming) . Many breeders found the daughters of those "simple selection" queens showed zero tolerance to varroa . The whole process was not simple as grandpa said and quite confusing as Peter pointed out. Dr. Shiminuki was correct in his 20 year prediction for simple selection in my opinion without Dr. Harbo's research. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Griggs Subject: EAS 2002 at Cornell University Aug. 5-9, 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Fellow Beekeeper, It is with great pleasure that I invite you to attend this years Eastern Apicultural Society Conference at Cornell University in New York. This years conference is hosted by the Empire State Honey Producers and Dyce Laboratory for Honey Bee Studies at Cornell University. I hope you will be able to attend this gala event. Campus opens Sunday afternoon to begin the Short Course starting Monday morning August, 5th. The main conference then begins on Wednesday August 7th, at 1:30 pm. Thursday & Friday afternoon we present 10 simultaneous Work Shops on all aspects of beekeeping. The program chairs have done an outstanding job presenting us with choice. Thursday night we hold our annual BBQ & Auction for Honey Bee Research and Friday night we wrap up with an Awards Banquet. This is a very brief overview. More information on program specifics can be found at this web site-- http://www.eas2002.cornell.edu We are using Cornell's newly constructed air conditioned dormitories for residence and the dinning hall for meals. Don't let your memories of college taint your perspective of these facilities as todays students live in luxury! These new dormitories are referred to as "The Palace" by the unlucky freshman that are placed in older buildings. We will be on North Campus but will also bus too and from Dyce Laboratory for Honey Bee Studies, offering us the opportunity to see the Lab. and utilize the grounds for our Short Course and Work Shops. The great part in this is that we will be able to better mingle with the bees without fear of disturbing academic life on campus. A high point of the Short Course will be the excursion to Tom Seeleys lab for a session interpreting the dance language of the bees! More information can be found at the web site or you can request information packets by replying to me with number requested. EAS has not graced the Cornell Campus for thirty years and may not be back anytime soon! The program is packed, diverse and exciting. I hope you will take advantage of this incredible opportunity and attend this years EAS conference. See you in August! Mike -- Mike Griggs President EAS 2002 179 Benjamin Hill Rd Newfield, NY 14867 phone (607)-564-0656 Anytime after 8 pm & before 11pm EST http://www.eas2002.cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Alabama Comments: To: OhioBeeFarmer@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 23 May 2002 10:26:10 -0400 OhioBeeFarmer writes: > Paul Harvey... said that Alabama's honey bees have been > wiped out by a virus... Several of our large commercial operators claim losses of up to 50% of the colonies over the winter and early spring. Samples have been sent to Beltsville for analysis. Symptoms look like 'Hairless Black Syndrome" (Chronic Paralysis or Acute Bee Paralysis). Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping and Honey Production since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home' Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: cell carriers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a few foam queen cell carriers (to transport cells ready to emerge) , but need more. These carriers I have now are a loose open-celled foam with perfect 0.5" holes bored out. I think these carriers must be prefabricatred for some other use, such as upolstering, because the holes are perfectly rounded and spaced. Any ideas where this material comes from? Any better ideas for making cell carriers? Respond directly to me, as I only subscribe to the digest. Adony ..................................................... Adony Melathopoulos Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada #1 Research Road Box 29 Beaverlodge, AB T0H 0C0 CANADA T: +1 780 354 5130 F: +1 780 354 8122 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:43:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rick, Nancy and All, Still not giving me much to work with. > Several of our large commercial operators claim losses of up to 50% of > the colonies over the winter and early spring. These operators better wake up and start attending meetings and get up to speed. I SUSPECT MITES AS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM. Samples have been sent to > Beltsville for analysis. Symptoms look like 'Hairless Black Syndrome" > (Chronic Paralysis or Acute Bee Paralysis). This is the same response beltsville sends for PMS. Mites are the problem and the viruses are the secondary problems. It really would not make a difference which of the above were found in the samples unless these bees were *free of mites*. It would appear Beltsville is calling the above Acute Bee Paralysis. Here is what Bailey has to say about the virus he isolated in 1963. Quote pg. 1110 "The Hive and the Honey Bee" Acute Bee Paralysis , according to Bailey, is a" laboratory phenomenon," Although the virus can be detected in apparently healthy bees from many parts of the world , it does not normally cause overt signs of paralysis and occurs in the same numbers in apparently healthy bees AS IN paralyzed individuals. In other words viruses can be detected in most bees but cause death mainly after the ravages of mites. Paul Harvey saying viruses killed 40-50% of bees in Alabama is kind of like saying "wax moth killed my bees" in my opinion. Dr. Norman Carrick is doing research on viruses in the U.K. Dr. Carrick believes bees can live with varroa IF we can find a way to control the secondary virus infections. I personally find the idea time consuming and expensive but respect Dr. Carrick work and feel fortunate to receive updates from time to time on his valuable research. I stand ready to defend my position on the subject. Researchers? Beltsville Bee Lab? Did APBV kill 50% of those bees in Alabama OR am I correct? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: complex mongrels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tomas mozer: >if there are no wild apis populations surviving in ny state/elsewhere, perhaps a similar bottleneck scenario as caused by limited available germ plasm diversity Yes, but we have never relied on "wild" or "native" bees. We have purchased bees from as many sources as possible. With bees coming in from Yugoslavia, Russia, Georgia, and California, it seems that there would be enough variation. All the same, I would like to see importing opened back up so we could really mix it up. We have nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cesar Flores Subject: honey laboratory testing In-Reply-To: <200205240400.g4O3sPX8014169@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Which commercial laboratories in USA or Europe or other place can test honey for a complete profile of pesticide residues and other parameters (hmf,pollen,etc) ?? addresses/fees ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Luis Alaniz Gutierrez Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205240536.g4O5O3X6015729@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII May be someone can help me and translate this: Tambien yo coincido con esto: Una cosa es que no haya evidencia de la presencia de las abejas meliferas en Arizona y California antes de 1850 y otra distinta es que realmente no hubiera abejas ya para esas fechas. En Baja California he estado hablando con personas mayores y me dicen que recuerdan referencias indirectas de personas que aprovechaban miel de colmenas silvestres a finales de 1800, y es esta una tradicion bastante arraigada entre las comunidades indigenas de la Baja California... Tampoco yo he podido encontrar referencia alguna acerca de las abejas en tiempos anteriores a 1900 en Baja California, pero dudo que los misioneros no hayan traido enjambres con ellos. Por otro lado, suponiendo que las abejas hayan llegado al sur de Mexico en el siglo XVI, Seria imposible que no se hayan desplazado naturalmente hacia el Noroeste de Mexico? O acaso no pudo un enjambre viajar *de contrabando* en algun barco? Agradecere cualquier informacion y/o referencia que sustente o refute lo anterior. Muchas Gracias!! Luis Alaniz ____________________________________ On Fri, 24 May 2002, Karen Oland wrote: > Possibly due to movement of bees by priests between monasteries (after first > importation into Mexico regions in 1500's or so). As you might imagine, they > tend to have more of those in the southwest than here in the upper > southeast, and the priests did import bees to Latin America due to inferior > wax from the native bees (from the stingless bee, if I remember correctly). > However, if you say there were no honey bees in AZ until the 1850's - Dee's > theories are even less credible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:19:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rick, Nancy, and Bob: When Shim announced PMS 5-6 years ago, I had some long deep discussions with him because all viruses are so different that bacterial diseases. Based on what I have seen at Beltsville since that time, and now have a lot of knowledge about PMS, I am willing to bet that the bees died of PMS which is caused by MITES. I agree with Bob, ALL commercial beekeepers better start reading and understanding RECENT literature, because bees cannot be kept in the 21st century like "Daddy kept bees" before 1984. Going even further, there is no such thing as a cold winter killing healthy bees. Several scientists, notably now deceased Dr. Ed Southwick subjected colonies to temperatures as low as 80 BELOW for periods as long as a month, and NO COLONIES DIED. It is in the literature! Bees that are already SICK from something else, maybe mites, die in cold weather NOT FROM THE COLD, but weakened by the some disease or pests, and the cold is just the final problem. I hope you ALL are having a great nectar flow. My colonies are beginning to fill their third medium super. Taking care of 20 colonies on my scooter or golf cart is very difficult and tiring for me, but it helps me mentally to "put up" with my stroke disabilities. George ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 05:28:06 -0500 Reply-To: charlie harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: charlie harper Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205242343.g4ONMjXC004257@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:44 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: We have nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. > >pb Yes we do HAVE something to lose there is another mite more destructive than the ones we have already. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:10:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Alabama Comments: To: OhioBeeFarmer In-Reply-To: <200205231445.g4NDbWYu024643@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on BEE-L Checking email on BEE-L now after working bees in field for few days and just read besides others: Paul Harvey... the news commentator said that Alabama's honey bees have beenwiped out by a virus... anyone know what's up with that? Reply: So I called my dear friend Bill Gafford VP of the Ala Beekeepers State Assoc and asked what was up. He said he is having NO PROBLEMS with his small black caucasians on 4.9mm foundation (whole outfit) but that Italian beekeepers were having paralysis problems and bees were dying. We talked a long time about this. Kinda makes one wonder what part neurotoxic chemicals and varroa play in this, besides enlarged combs! Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 08:50:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: complex mongrels >Tambien yo coincido con esto: Una cosa es que no haya evidencia de la >presencia de las abejas meliferas en Arizona y California antes de 1850 y >otra distinta es que realmente no hubiera abejas ya para esas fechas. I also agree with this: One thing is that there is no evidence of the presence of Apis sp. in Arizona and California before 1850 and another thing is that in reality there weren't any bees before these dates (sic). >En Baja California he estado hablando con personas mayores y me dicen que >recuerdan referencias indirectas de personas que aprovechaban miel de >colmenas silvestres a finales de 1800, y es esta una tradicion >bastante arraigada entre las comunidades indigenas de la Baja >California... Tampoco yo he podido encontrar referencia alguna acerca de >las abejas en tiempos anteriores a 1900 en Baja California, pero dudo que >los misioneros no hayan traido enjambres con ellos. Por otro lado, >suponiendo que las abejas hayan llegado al sur de Mexico en el siglo XVI, >Seria imposible que no se hayan desplazado naturalmente hacia el Noroeste >de Mexico? O acaso no pudo un enjambre viajar *de contrabando* en algun >barco? In Baja I've been speaking to older people who tell me they remember second hand stories of people who robbed wild hives at the end of the 1800's, and this is a tradition well rooted among the idiginous communities of Baja California. Also I've been able to find some references relating to bees in times before 1900 in Baja, but I doubt that the missionaries didn't bring hives with them. On the other hand, supposing that bees came to the south of Mexico in the 16th century, is it imposible that they didn't naturalize to the northwest of Mexico? Or isn't it possible that a swarm traveled unnoticed on a ship? >Agradecere cualquier informacion y/o referencia que sustente o refute lo >anterior. I'd be gratefull for any information or references that would sustain or refute what I've written. >Muchas Gracias!! > >Luis Alaniz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:22:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: complex mongrels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Karen wrote: >Otherwise, we would be >seeing pockets of resistant feral bees building back up (since they have had >as long or longer exposure to the mites as her bees) and true ferals from >prior to man-made foundation did exist in the US previously .. some of them >had to have been on this more 'natural' cell size and had the genetic base >to survive, if her hypothesis is true. Maybe this could be a factor in the reports noted on bee-l of the return of feral bees in the southeast and west coast states by various people. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 07:17:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Selkie Lass Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205250112.g4P0uKXa005277@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is the Babelfish ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/ ) translation, just as the website translated it.: Also I agree with this: A thing is that there is not evidence of the presence of the meliferas bees in Arizona and California before 1850 and another different one is that really there were not bees already for those dates. In Baja California I have been speaking with greater people and they say to me that indirect references of people remember who took advantage of honey wild beehives at the end of 1800, and is a this tradition rooted enough between the indigenas communities of the Baja California... I have not either been able to find reference some about the bees in times previous to 1900 in Baja California, but I doubt that the missionaries have not traido clusters with them. supposing that the bees have arrived at the south of Mexico in century XVI, Serious on the other hand impossible that they are not had naturally displaced towards the Northwest of Mexico? Or perhaps could not a cluster travel * of contraband * in algun boat? Agradecere any information and/or referen! ce that the previous thing sustains or refutes. Thank you very much! Ellen Luis Alaniz Gutierrez wrote: May be someone can help me and translate this: Tambien yo coincido con esto: Una cosa es que no haya evidencia de la presencia de las abejas meliferas en Arizona y California antes de 1850 y otra distinta es que realmente no hubiera abejas ya para esas fechas. En Baja California he estado hablando con personas mayores y me dicen que recuerdan referencias indirectas de personas que aprovechaban miel de colmenas silvestres a finales de 1800, y es esta una tradicion bastante arraigada entre las comunidades indigenas de la Baja California... Tampoco yo he podido encontrar referencia alguna acerca de las abejas en tiempos anteriores a 1900 en Baja California, pero dudo que los misioneros no hayan traido enjambres con ellos. Por otro lado, suponiendo que las abejas hayan llegado al sur de Mexico en el siglo XVI, Seria imposible que no se hayan desplazado naturalmente hacia el Noroeste de Mexico? O acaso no pudo un enjambre viajar *de contrabando* en algun barco? Agradecere cualquier informacion y/o referencia que sustente o refute lo anterior. Muchas Gracias!! Luis Alaniz ____________________________________ On Fri, 24 May 2002, Karen Oland wrote: > Possibly due to movement of bees by priests between monasteries (after first > importation into Mexico regions in 1500's or so). As you might imagine, they > tend to have more of those in the southwest than here in the upper > southeast, and the priests did import bees to Latin America due to inferior > wax from the native bees (from the stingless bee, if I remember correctly). > However, if you say there were no honey bees in AZ until the 1850's - Dee's > theories are even less credible. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 17:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal In-Reply-To: <200205250401.g4P3xfXO009758@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Indiana State Beekeepers Association publishes the ISBA Journal six times a year. The journal is in .pdf form and available for free download at www.HoosierBuzz.com/document The June 2002 edition is available there now. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 18:03:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205231122.g4NBHuWs021191@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on Bee-l Peter Borst Wrote: What you call a "complex mongrel" is just the regular bee that everybody uses. It is a mix of the various races that have been used:Italian, Carniolan, etc. One thing about it, it is vigorous and notin-bred. It is not a true hybrid. Reply: Good then Peter, you do understand what a "complex mongrel" is, and then how it would ve variable throughout the whole USA depending upon the mixture by geographical region. Peter also wrote: When you say *retrogressive breeding" I take it to mean that you are trying to revert to some "previous type". Reply: Good Peter, then you will understand when I say, it is the reversal of either natural or artifical hybridized combinations of large or small caste races/strains of hot or cold-weathered bees, resulting in the production of uniform progeny within the framework of a fully naturalized breeding program, which will then result in each separation achieved, breeding true to their own hot or cold-weather characteristics and large or small caste delineations. Peter wrote: But with this program, there was a particular goal in mind, a particular type. What is the particular type you are after? How will you know if you have it? Reply: Have it now, just have to bring it's numbers back up in spheres of dominance in the field more. Peter further wrote: I would expect feral bees of Arizona to be a mix of African and American stock. From this, you are trying to separate out some particular type, using open mating? Reply: Since no survey of managed colonies was or has ever been accomplished in Arizona concerning this, nor also of the Feral population (though isolated areas are in question IMPOV) I actually do not formally know if there are real African bees and further I question what is actual American Stock. But yes, I/we are trying to separate out a particular type, and using what I would call modified open-mating in conjunction with selected virgin queen drops to the field. Peter wrote: >From what you have stated in the past, you apparently believe that there was some type of bee in Arizona before the arrival of the white man, and that you can somehow, through the miracle of bee breeding, restore it to its rightful place in the Southwest. Reply: Not the Southwest Peter but at least in S. Arizona.Also there is more then bee breeding involved for knowing, in accomplishing same. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: honeybees in Colombia (South America) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I´m just getting started with bees and I subscribed to BEE-L to try to get whatever useful information... > >Is there anyone who can share expierences on tropical beekeping? Anything you can tell me about getting rid of africanized bees, diseases here in the tropics, etc., I will be really grateful. > >Adriana Molina Adriana, there are several of us, myself included, who have experience with tropical beekeeping. Could you please ask specific questions? Thanks for posting. Very best regards Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:14:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205242343.g4ONhDWi004574@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: Yes, but we have never relied on "wild" or "native" bees. We have purchased bees from as many sources as possible. With bees coming in from Yugoslavia, Russia, Georgia, and California, it seems that there would be enough variation. Reply: Perhaps it is about time those that wanted to were allowed to rely upon wild and/or native bees that are acclimitized to ones own geographical area, for fighting today's problems of mites, beetles, and secondary diseases! Is that such a hard concept to accept? Or just unpatentable? Peter also wrote: All the same, I would like to see importing opened back up so we could really mix it up. We have nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain. Reply: Seems we have already lost a lot with complex mongrelization and enlarged foundations to fix the mixes! In my mind there is nothing to be gained there. Seems we go overseas to areas with good races/strains and simple hybridization, that are surviving well, and then bring them back here to the USA, and mix them up here into a mess. Somehow this practice does not make sense, nor does it seem to work as we expect. Chow Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 18:55:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Arters Subject: Honey House Design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A number of years ago there was an article in "ABJ" or "Bee Culture," I do not recall which, concerning honey house design. This article stated that due to the properties of honey it was recommended that an additive be added to the concrete mix to insure its integrity. Does anyone recall or have any information about the additive of which this article speaks? David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 21:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey House Design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David and All, > A number of years ago there was an article in "ABJ" or "Bee Culture," I do > not recall which, concerning honey house design. If you could narrow down the year and magazine I might could find the article . I believe the article you refer to was a series of articles done on Leon Metz new honey house by Leon Metz. ABJ I believe. From memory which is usually correct Leon used a high density concrete which is available from most concrete places with special order (and extra cost). Leon ran the articles as the work was being done. Things went wrong at the end and if memory serves me correct the *jack hammer* was put into play or a certain part had to be redone. This article stated that > due to the properties of honey it was recommended that an additive be added > to the concrete mix to insure its integrity. I do not remember a article which talked about a additive. Most beekeepers (and myself) use regular concrete and use a sealer before a drop of honey ever touches the bare concrete and make sure the seal is allways working. Honey will take the top off unsealed concrete. All health regulations in all states require a sealed floor so you rarely see concrete problems except in Illegal food processing areas and in areas in which the sealer has not been kept up. ALWAYS CHECK WITH THE LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENT WHEN BUILDING A NEW HONEY HOUSE *BEFORE CONSTRUCTION* . Small operators might not need too but if selling in stores they can shut you down, make the inspection and keep you shut down till you pass inspection. Not checking can be expensive. Hide the attitude with health inspectors as they CAN do the above and can be hard to deal with. The most common problem with concrete work I have seen is failure to finish the floor so water will flow into drains correctly and leaving areas usually against the wall behind an extractor with a place where water will puddle. If not removed with each floor washdown the spot will become a light dark mold which health departments always will write you up for. Hardly noticeable to anyone BUT the health inspector. I steam and pressure wash the floor twice a year. Before and after extracting and seal the floor with a clear sealer once a year. Most health departments will leave you alone UNLESS they get a complaint. These usually come from your competitor the first time you place honey on a store shelf next to his/hers. Other competitor problems: His honey in front of yours on your shelf. Your honey pushed to back of shelf. Your honey back in box on top of shelf. When you ask your competitor about these things he will blame the customers so why bother asking. Check store shelves often. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 20:58:49 -0500 Reply-To: charlie harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: charlie harper Subject: Re: Honey House Design In-Reply-To: <200205262344.g4QNZwWq023385@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 26 May 2002 18:55:47 -0400, David Arters wrote: >Does anyone recall or have any information about the additive of which this >article speaks? Only thing I know of would be a good concrete sealer. There are different brands, but the sealer is needed to the honey from eating up the concrete, since it is acidic in nature. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:04:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: complex mongrels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Borst says, "We have nothing to lose . . ." by open importing. Don't you suppose he would have said the same before tracheal and varroa mites and small hive beetles arrived? It is the unknown pathogen which kills you! Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 04:30:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Memorial Day, slatted racks, pollen traps, nucs, bears, 3-queen hive, Plants for Beekeeping in Canada and the Northern USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Beekeeper, Happy Memorial Day! I got the garden planted over the weekend, and = turned on the sprinkler, as the rain missed here, except a quick shower. Wow, I was concerned that I had lost my address book! It came up with 0 = entries and only 173 kb, as opposed to the usual 2513 kb! Checking my = backed up copies on CD-RW I found the same. Then somehow I found a = backed-up copy on the same disk with all 2067 entries! Figure that one = out! I opened it by clicking on it, and then had to go to File: Export = file: to its usual place, see next. To save your Windows address book: = Copy C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Microsoft\Address Book\address book = file to a floppy diskette or CD-RW. I do this daily to prevent problems, = on alternating Cds, just in case! Finally got some decent weather for the tail end of the dandelion flow. = Hives were making up to about 7 lbs. per day, which is typical for a = good flow. The best seen on dandelion was 17.75 lbs. way back when I had = bees near Route 12 just into Westmoreland, NH. I have heard of 20# from = Lawrence Pelton, formerly of Langdon, NH. He also saw this amount during = the smooth sumac flow one July in South Charlestown, NH. Lawrence made all his equipment from pine he sawed at his mill. He gave = me my first slatted rack, and from it I made them for the rest of my = colonies. If you are not familiar with the slatted rack, it was invented = by Dr. C. C. Miller early in the 20th century. It increases ventilation = and brood rearing in the bottom super, and prevents gnawing and = propolizing near the entrance due to the recessed entrance. By keeping = the bee space of 3/8ths inch under the frames, the rack also prevents = building of ladder comb on the bottom of the frames, so it's much easier = to reverse with no scraping of the tough drone comb. You'll note that = there is more brood and honey in the bottom super with a rack. The slats = of most of mine are perpendicular to the frames. There are some newer = models that have them parallel to the frames, to enhance varroa mite = collection under a varroa screen, which goes between slatted rack and = bottom board. However, they are made for 10 frames, and most people use = 9 frames, as it is easier to manipulate the frames with less breakage of = end bars, which can become glued to one another very quickly with = propolis. I stock a nice tool for spacing 9 frames, which you can use = after frames are drawn or built, using 10 frames with foundation. A = clever beekeeper in Ludlow, VT, made a magnesium 8-frame spacer from a = concrete screed tool which I use for my honey supers to get nice fat = combs for easy uncapping at extracting time. Jim Powers, who I met next = door to Kona Queen Co. in Captain Cook, HI, in the late 70's, had = special Powers frames with wide end bars to run 8 in all his supers. He = also had a nifty extractor that spun out several whole supers at a time! Last week saw a string of fine days excellent for finding brood for my = nucleus customers. Yes, I'm still taking orders, for late June now. See = below for upcoming weekend customer list. I found 15 nucs worth of brood = this past week, about a frame per hive. I reinvested quite a few frames = of brood to bring up some of the weaker units to production. I found a = strong hive with low honey stores. This is not surprising due to the = long period of poor foraging weather. The bees are more pleasant to work = with when they settle in to a good flow. It's quite amazing how the new = combs get that yellow-orange hue from the orange dandelion pollen! = Celandine (Chelidonium majus, Poppy family) also was blooming. This is = strictly a pollen plant; you'll see no dipping for nectar with this = yellow flower which produces yellow pollen. Sometimes when there is a = good basswood flow you will see yellow around the upper augur hole = entrances. Soon, I'll have the new edition of Plants for Beekeeping in = Canada and the Northern USA, by Jane Ramsey. It has an index of common, = French, and Latin names. It is arranged by annuals, biennials, = perennials, and trees and shrubs. It has hardiness rating, time and = duration of bloom, height range, whether nectar, pollen, or honeydew is = available, value for honey (yields per colony, nectar sugar = concentration, etc.,) value for pollen, honey characteristics, and = cultural requirements, etc. Contact me if you would like to reserve a = copy. I'm getting excited about starting pollen collection! Honeysuckle = (Lonicera tatarica) produces some of the tastiest pollen of the season, = and it is open now. This flow typically produces 5#/day gains on good = colonies. It's followed by blackberry, which has gray pollen. I've had = my traps on for some time, but on free-flight mode, where bees can come = in without going through the two 5 per inch mesh screens that strip = about 2/3rds of the pollen. In about 3 days after engaging the traps, = the bees accommodate to the traps, collecting 3 times as much pollen to = make up for the trap. What's good about the open-top traps is that they = also catch live falling varroa mites from the brood nest above. I get my = traps custom made from the same Amish man that makes the Sundance trap, = which unfortunately has a luaun piece over the 5/" mesh. This is to = deflect trash such as chalkbrood mummies. I use 7/" mesh sifter and even = 8/ and 10/" sifters to get this trash out and catch mites, too. There is = evidence that the depth of varroa screens does allow some mites to crawl = back up to the cluster. However, the depth to which mites fall is at = least double with my traps. I have a number of new ones which I recently = paraffinned (cooked in paraffin to prevent warping and rotting) that I = sell for $65. I make a 7/" sifter available for $10. I have a good = selection of bee equipment in stock, please contact me for prices. I've heard lots of reports of bear damage this year. I lost 6 nucs to = bears myself on the May 13 behind my house, where I have had no damage = for years, although in the late 80's I had some damage here. NH Fish and = Game will loan you a fence and charger for the season, perhaps other = states do the same. Believe me, I had the fence up that day, as the bear = often comes back the following night for leftovers! No problems since. I = have in stock the Critter Gitter which is effective at repelling bears = and skunks. Supposedly, skunks do more damage nationwide than bears, = although is it not as noticeable. It does make the bees pretty nasty, as = the skunk comes most every night to eat bees from the entrance. Scratch = and munch! You will see the scratches on the bottom board and combed = grass in front of the hive. Apparently, if you have your land posted = against hunting, you can't file for a bear damage claim in NH and VT. = You also can claim panther damage in NH; same law of the 1930's and = 40's! I found one hive with 3 queens! One was laying in a honey super, between = the 2 brood nests of my 2-queen colonies. I thought one section was = queenless, so had introduced another queen! I removed the extra queen; = she'll go with a nuc. Perfect brood pattern. In general, the new = Carniolan queens are laying well. For the next weekend, the higher you are on the list, the more likely = I'll have your nucleus ready: JRH EJB PO MB SWH I guess that's all for now. Happy beekeeping! On the flow, =20 Charles Frederic Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Speaker, Eastern Apicultural Society Conference 2001, on Propolis and = Pollen Production NH/VT Apiary Inspector 1978-1989 POB 165, 18 McLean Road Walpole, NH 03608-0165 603-756-9056 home lindena@sover.net Residence: Latitude 43=B0 04' 53" North, Longitude 72=B0 21' 13" West, = Elevation 363 meters=20 Keeper of 43 two-queen colonies for unheated honey, fresh-frozen pollen, = Bee Complex facial, propolis tincture, beeswax, candles, apitherapy, = nuclei, pollination, workshops, and supplies, plus my own American = Ginseng "Learn, experiment, innovate, educate!"=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:33:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: complex mongrels In-Reply-To: <200205270401.g4R3ufXg029095@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Peter Borst says, "We have nothing to lose . . ." by open importing. Don't you suppose he would have said the same before tracheal and varroa mites and small hive beetles arrived? It is the unknown pathogen which kills you! Dan Dan, Of course not. I was just as concerned as everyone else, during the 80s, that we not import bees. I did not want to face the seemingly insurmountable hurdles of Africanization, varroa, etc. that were altering forever the practice of beekeeping elsewhere. But on the downside, we were unable to import beneificial honey bee stock to counter the potential narrowing of the genetic base in the American type. I don't know that it had become so narrow as to cause particular defects. See: "evolutionary bottleneck development in A.A.Wenner & R.W.Thorp "The honey bees of Santa Cruz Island", an isolated population which eventually succumbed to varroa introduced as biocontrol" at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/bcmay1993.htm Several people have mentioned the potential for *new* pests that could come in with honeybee imports. If this is true, I certainly wouldn't want that any more than anyone else! I merely meant that the primary reasons for the original quarantine are no longer valid. We already have AHB, varroa, and trachael mite. And apparently, the US government felt it was worth going outside the US for new breeding stock, when they went to Russia. Of course, these bees were subjected to a rigorous quarantine system. In fact, there are a variety of exotic insects being studied in quarantine facilities in the US. What is to be learned by past failures such as Warwick Kerr's experiment? Either -- 1) be extremely careful or -- 2) don't try anything new? -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 20:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doug Henry Subject: Pollen and Bee Eating Birds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Tonight I found out where my bees are getting all their pollen. The answer > was right in front of my eyes. While walking around the yard enjoying the > nice weather I could hear bees buzzing. On closer examination I saw them by > the dozens feeding in the willow trees that surround the house. Then I > noticed the birds, little yellow warblers feeding on the bees. There seemed > to be dozens of them too hopping and flying around in the trees pursuing the > bees. Is this something new? I didn't realize these tiny little birds were > bee eaters. > Doug Henry VE4TG Lockport Manitoba --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/02 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 14:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey House Design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This article stated that due to the properties of honey it was recommended > that an additive be added to the concrete mix to insure its integrity. > Does anyone recall or have any information about the additive of which > this article speaks? While I do not recall the ABJ article, I have ordered lots of concrete, designed many concrete floors, walls, and pilings, and watched many concrete pours, fingers crossed in hope that the forms would not shift. The "better mix" is called "High-Early" here in the Southeastern USA. It is used in state and federal highway projects for the poured concrete pilings for bridges and overpasses. It is very expensive as compared to normal ready-mix concrete, but it does NOT result in an etch-proof floor. The differences between "High-Early" and run-of-the-mill concrete are: a) No chloride is used in the mix, which is often used to speed curing, but can result in a more "powdery" surface, more prone to etching. b) More cement is used in the mix. It is a "thicker" mix. Much thicker. c) In addition to (b), or depending upon the specs, perhaps instead of (b), a (non-chloride) accelerant is used to speed curing. d) Since one is ordering a "special" mix, one can also ask for the polymer/fiber-fill additives that act as reinforcement, and eliminate the need for rebar. Not all ready-mix houses do this, but it can be a serious cost savings in labor and materials. It also leads to a much longer-life slab or wall, since there is no rebar to rust and force the concrete to crack. (Look at an old concrete wall someday, and you'll see that the failures show up where the rebar is near the surface.) Most building codes approve of the polymer, but many building inspectors have never seen it, so expect to get the inspector to call the ready-mix house to get a quick lesson in modern high-tech concrete. This "high-early" mix sets up very quickly, but still allows adequate working time. Just this winter, I was asked to design a new flooring system for a dairy milking parlor, with the usual complex web of drainage troughs, drain pipes, sloped floors, et al. The pour was in the dead of winter, and the temperature was barely above freezing. The high-early mix, poured to an 8-inch depth, at 7am, cured in time to allow milking to be done that night at 10pm. Needless to say, it was high exothermic, and kept the barn warm all day long. :) Now, there are entire textbooks about concrete (I have a copy of the 300+ page tome "Fundemental Foundations"), and civil engineers can take courses that focus on the details of concrete. One can specify just about anything, and any decent ready-mix house will know how to make it. The best approach may be to supply the ready-mix house with a few quarts of honey for testing (and tasting), and explain the problem of "etching", asking them what they might suggest. But, your best defense against etching from honey is to use NORMAL concrete, and spend the extra money making sure that it is well-poured and protected concrete, rather than trying to spec/buy a "super concrete" that really does not exist. a) Pour it thick (think 6 or 8 inches rather than 4). b) Use well-engineered forms (think metal rental forms!). If wood, use 2x8s and 4x4s rather than 2x6s and 2x4s. Wood is cheaper than removing and re-doing a failed pour. (If a contractor is to do the forms, discuss the scenario of a failed pour, and insure that the contract clearly states that costs of repairing and re-doing a failed pour are his, not yours.) c) Pay a pro to put in the correct slope toward your drains. Floating concrete is an art, and you want an artist. (You did remember to design in drains, didn't you?) d) Seal the concrete with 3 or 4 coats, letting each coat dry fully before adding the next. Add some tint to the sealer at the paint store so you can see that you have covered the entire surface. Use different tints for each gallon or quart so you can verify complete coverage on every coat, using alternate cans of sealer for alternate coats. e) Use heavy-duty industrial grade paint. Put on two coats. Plan on repainting when any wear shows up. The newer elastometer coatings are wonderful on concrete floors in "industrial" settings. Sometimes "roof paint" used on tin or tile roofs is also a good choice, and a cheaper way to get the elastometer paint. f) Another good idea is to use the rubber "fatigue mats" as used in industrial settings. They are easy on your feet, and they can be taken outside and hosed off if honey is spilled on them. If the honey never touches the concrete, you never have a problem. It also helps to plan (and design) for scenarios where honey might "spill", since this is waste of honey. The most common error I have heard repeated over and over is having a system of pumps and sumps that does not include a simple overflow cut-off switch. These things come in many flavors, but the simplest is nothing more than a toilet-bowl type float attached to a microswitch that controls a relay that kills your pump(s) when a critical tank gets "too full". The bottom line is that I know of no such thing as "honey-resistant concrete" or "acid-resistant concrete". There are "high-density mixes", but the basic chemistry of concrete breakdown at the surface ("etching") does not change. My honey house has a concrete floor that was poured decades ago, long before modern high-tech concrete. So far, no problem. My secret is paint, and not spilling large amounts of honey. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:58:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: CARNIOLANS Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI ALL, I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT BUCKFAST BEES GET NASTY IF THE QUEEN IS SUPERCEDED. I WOULD ASSUME THE SAME WOULD APPLY TO THE REMAINING QUEEN AFTER SWARMING. HAS ANYONE FOUND THIS TO APPLY TO CARNIOLANS? I HAVE A HIVE OF CARNIES REMAINING AFTER A SWARM LATE LAST SPRING. THEY ARE REALLY AGGRESSIVE. THE COLONY IS LOUD AND THERE IS A LOT OF FLYING, HELMET BEATING AND EVENTUALLY STINGING. TWO OTHER HIVES, ALSO CARNIES, ALSO SWARMED BUT THE RESULT IS QUIET, AND AS GENTLE AS THEY WERE INITIALLY. COULD THIS NASTY HIVE BE THE RESULT OF CARNIE VIRGIN QUEEN AND BUCKFAST DRONES? I HAVE BOTH. ALSO, WITH SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS, HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED DIATOMATIOUS EARTH AS A POSSIBLE CONTROL FOR SHB? IT ABRADES THE CARAPACE AND CAUSES DEATH BY DEHYDRATION. COLEENE