From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:44:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,URIBL_GREY, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52DE4908C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sc010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0206B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 190653 Lines: 4276 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 05:20:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: 4.9 plastic foundation trail day 6-7-02 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have 4.9 plastic foundation from Dee Lusby. Running a trail on the item for beetles and usage. The plastic is unwaxed as I received it with a light oil, maybe vanilla. When 4.9 plastic is dipped in 150 F degree wax it adheres perfectly. This gives you the finest plastic available that I have found. I will put waxed and unwaxed into the hives. Queens are going to be different (5 queen groups of 4 nucs to queens). Nucs are being put into a summer second bloom of citrus, Palm tree bloom and wild summer flower bloom. 30-60 days the Holly pepper will be in bloom. Honey will be put into nucs for feeding and if I have to sugar or corn syrup. Michael Housel Orlandobee@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 07:03:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Ants, Tall Grass and SNAKES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > ANY TIPS ON BEES AND WEED-KILLERS? > > One of the best tips I've heard is to use old carpet around hives. I tried it. You end up selecting for different weeds, vine types, which cover the carpet fairly completely. But at least the growth stays fairly low. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:06:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Excerpts from a recent article >The ability of Varroa destructor to reproduce in the African honey >bee Apis mellifera scutellata was studied. In addition, the effects >of space within the brood cell and short brood develop-mental time >on mite reproduction, was investigated using A. m. scutellata cells >parasitised by a A. m. capensis worker pseudo-clone. > >In A. m. scutellata worker cells Varroa produced 0.9 fertilised >females per mother mite which is the same as found in susceptible >European honey bees, but greater than the 0.4 produced in cells >containing the pseudo-clone. > >Low mite reproductive success in cells containing pseudo-clone was >mainly as a result of increased mite mortality. This was caused by >male protonymphs and some mothers becoming trapped in the upper part >of the cell due to the pseudo-clone being 8% larger than their host >and not due to their short developmental time. > >Although reproduction of Varroa sp. is affected by the space between >the develop-ing bee and cell wall, reducing cell sizes as a mite >control method will probably fail to be effective since the bees are >likely to respond by rearing correspondingly smaller bees > >Therefore, mite populations in South African A. m. scutellata and A. >m. capensis honey bees are expected to increase to levels observed >in Europe and USA. Comment: This study was done in Africa. The scuts had infestation rates similar to European bees, despite their smaller size. He says: >mite populations in AHB [Africanized American honeybees] fluctuate >during the year but their numbers rarely exceed several thousand >while mite populations in both A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis >colonies have been reported to regularly exceed 10 000 (Allsopp, >1998; Allsopp et al., 1999; Allsopp, 2000). This is because, while scuts are smaller, there is still ample room for mites to reproduce. In the case where a bee is too large for the cell, as when Capes invade Scuts, there is a reduction of mite reproduction. Of course, the infestation by Cape pseudo-queens wrecks the hive. It would appear that mite levels are reduced in AHB due to *some other factor* other than small cell size. Furthermore, this "resistance" seemed to weaken as they moved into the more temperate, humid areas, which points to a very strong environmental component. ref: Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? Stephen J. MARTIN , Per KRYGER Apidologie 33 (2002) 51-61 -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:51:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Ants, Tall Grass and SNAKES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Milt. In the University hives I tend on Guam in the winter, I often find the inner cover covered with small ants ant their larvae. I have never noticed any effect of them inside the hive proper. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:08:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Queen Acceptance Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again, First, thanks much for all of the help. I will try to respond with more info- Capped brood vs Open brood: I did the same thing last year with some open brood. The bees did NOT want to accept the queen. When I called a veteran beekeeper I had received help from in the past he said the brood should be capped because with young-very young, the bees can produce their own queen and there may have been one being started, so this year I used capped brood. Also, George, I was feeding these bees with 1:1 sugar syrup in addition to spraying them with sugar syrup. Other than that, I pulled 3 frames of brood and bees from the parent hive and put them in a second hive. Before I installed the new queen, I inspected and reinspected the split to insure no eggs or young brood to make certain the queen hadn't been moved with the brood and other bees. I then put the queen cage on the top bars. The bees did not act nasty and some, after inspecting the cage started fanning. I am getting ready to go and re-check the hive again. Fortunately, I have a hive that came through the winter weak, but building. If the new queen has been dispatched, the brood and bees from the split will give them a boost. Thanks again, Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:23:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: Researchers try to unravel cause of bee die-off Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020525/340237.html May 25, 2002 Researchers try to unravel cause of bee die-off 'Every bee that flies through an orchard is like a $20 bill flying by' for apple growers: Pesticide prime suspect Richard Foot National Post CHARLOTTETOWN - Jim Kemp keeps the strangest things in his office freezer at the University of Prince Edward Island: sacks of soil, clear plastic bags filled with wildflowers, and thousands of little frozen bees -- each one painstakingly collected from farms across the island in the hopes of solving an international, entomological mystery. Honeybees have been dying in alarming numbers around the world since the mid-1990s. More recently, the problem has surfaced in North America, where the honeybee is not an indigenous creature, but was imported from Europe many decades ago. Beekeepers in the Maritimes announced two years ago that they, too, were suffering high losses among their hives. While a 5% to 10% annual loss of bees is expected in the industry, beekeepers in P.E.I. and New Brunswick began reporting mortality rates of between 30% and 90%. Similar complaints have since emerged in Nova Scotia and Southern Ontario. Dr. Kemp, a UPEI botanist, was enlisted by the provincial government to find out what is killing Canada's bees. Solving the riddle is crucial, he says, not because of the honey the bees make -- a sweet by-product -- but because of the plants they and their wild cousins pollinate. Nature, and farmers, both depend on bees to propagate much of what sprouts from the earth. Without these busy insects, clover would not flower and strawberry fields would not bear fruit. The plants that bees pollinate make up about 80% of the food Canadians take home from the grocery store. "You aren't going to have anywhere near the blueberry crops, the canola crops, or the apple crops you want without bees," Dr. Kemp says. "Every bee that flies through an orchard is like a $20 bill flying by, because of the amount of apples that its work will produce. "And whatever is affecting honeybees," he adds, "could be affecting bumblebees and other wild bees native to this country." Many in the beekeeping industry are blaming pesticides for the problem. Most apiaries, or hives, with high losses in recent years are located in or near potato fields, where farmers have since 1999 been applying a pesticide called Admire. The chemical is sprayed on the soil to protect spud crops against the Colorado potato beetle. Bees do not forage on potato plants, but beekeepers frequently place hives in potato fields so the bees can feed on and pollinate clover -- a common rotation crop farmers grow between yields to put nitrogen back into the soil. Admire is a long-lasting pesticide that could endure for years in a farm field, and some beekeepers complain that the chemical is finding its way into the clover, and being fatally ingested by bees. "Last year, everybody said the culprit was Admire," says Daniel Ficza, who owns 500 hives and is president of the P.E.I. Beekeeper's Co-op. Mr. Ficza remains suspicious of Admire, but is not certain it is to blame for the high and sudden honeybee deaths in his industry. "It's hard to tell," he says. "There are a lot of chemical sprays here on the island for potatoes. It could be anything." The active chemical in Admire -- imidacloprid -- has been called a hazard to bees elsewhere in the world. The pesticide has been banned in parts of France for several years, ever since honeybees there began showing signs of disorientation, and subsequently died, near sunflower fields treated with the chemical. A beekeeper in North Dakota is also suing Bayer Inc., the company that makes Admire, claiming his bees suffered high losses after foraging on crops sprayed with imidacloprid. The chemical was approved for use on Canadian potatoes in 1999. Dr. Kemp says it has the fastest growing sales of any insecticide in the world. Heather Clay, national co-ordinator for the Calgary-based Canadian Honey Council, says the chemical exists in another Bayer product, Gaucho, which is becoming popular as a pesticide for canola crops on the Prairies. "About 70% of Canadian honey comes from bees that feed on canola," she says. "No other country plants canola on as large a scale as Canada does, and produces honey from it to this extent. Our concern is we don't yet know if applying this chemical to canola will have any long-term effects on bees. We're afraid we may now have a big problem out West." So concerned is Bayer about the complaints of beekeepers in Canada that last year it volunteered to fund Dr. Kemp's research on P.E.I. The company has, to date, pledged $360,000 toward the research. But despite all the money and high-priced analysis, the honeybee riddle remains. Last summer, Dr. Kemp and a team of researchers including Dick Rogers, a Nova Scotian entomologist, searched P.E.I. for proof that Admire might be killing the island's bees. They gathered soil and clover samples from potato fields around the province. Then, with hand-held vacuum cleaners, they sucked up bees from nearby hives, froze the insects in dry ice, and extracted pollen and nectar already collected by the insects. The samples were analyzed at a lab in Edmonton. Traces of Admire were found in the soil and the clover leaves, but not in the clover flowers, the pollen or the nectar. This shows, says Dr. Kemp, that while Admire residues may remain in potato fields, and even in clover plants years after the stuff is applied, there is no proof it is being picked up and ingested by bees. "It means it's very unlikely that Admire is the cause of the problem," he says. Bayer has agreed to fund a second year of research, and this summer Dr. Kemp and his team are back in the countryside, examining 40 P.E.I. apiaries with new tests and fresh questions: Could Admire be lurking somewhere else inside bee hives, perhaps in the wax? Could other agricultural pesticides be harming the insects? Is a changing climate to blame? Could poor management by certain beekeepers be the problem? Are mites -- a bee parasite that has been blamed for wild bee deaths elsewhere in North America -- be suddenly killing high numbers of bees in hives around potato fields? Dr. Kemp he hopes to have answers by the end of next year, in a report awaited not only by Bayer executives and Canada's 11,000 beekeepers, but also the potato industry, blueberry growers, a handful of provincial governments, the federal Pest Management Regulatory Agency and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Heather Clay of the Canadian Honey Council remains skeptical that Admire and other Bayer products can be ruled out as potential bee killers following only one summer of research. She says she is eager to see what Dr. Kemp turns up in his second summer of sleuthing. "Something has happened," she says. "And it does seem really strange that in many places where potatoes have been planted and treated with this pesticide, bees have started dying." rfoot@nationalpost.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 20:21:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Wayne F. Young" Subject: Queen not laying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, How often is a Queen that comes with a package not likely to lay any eggs? In one of my packages that I bought in April the Queen did not lay any eggs .I left her in the hive for nearly a month, and there were not any grubs or capped cells at all. I recently took her out,and replaced her with a new Queen from Georgia.I placed the new Queen in the hive in her plastic cage with some of the hives own honey smeared on it,and a little on the Queen.The very next day I released the Queen,and she was excepted,and is still doing fine. Wayne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 08:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Seems to be a very good flow this spring here in South Eastern Ontario. = I'm running with 4 mediums on the hives. The fourth just being placed = on yesterday. Two boxes are almost capped and they have just began to = cap the 3rd. This seems to be about 2 boxes ahead for me. Sweet clover = looks to be coming alone ok. Should be out on time. The spring here = was very wet and cool. Temperatures running about 20C (68f) here right = now or slightly less. I hope all of you are having a good year! Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:09:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Seems to be a very good flow this spring here in South Eastern Ontario. = I am seeing the same here in central lower Michigan. The bees built up early and are now putting up like crazy now that the weather has warmed. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:53:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bumble Subject: Snelgrove Double(?) screen. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In reading my copy of Snelgrove (10th ed Feb 1956) he shows the screen board as having only one layer of mesh in its construction. However I have heard it referred to as a "double screen" board and a beekeeper of over 50 years experience told me that a single layer of screen will not work and that screen should be placed on both sides of the board. What is the opinion of the list? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:25:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David & TB Subject: Using Ross Rounds As a new beekeeper, the Ross Rounds super was suggested as an easy way to get started. Upon reading some of the information, it has been suggested to put the Ross super on a hive with only one body (brood chamber?) on it. But I thought the second brood chamber was necessary to control swarming. Any suggestions from someone who has used this before? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: odd occurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday, I was working in a bee yard of 30 colonies. Two colonies had something going on that I don't understand. Both had about two cupsfull of twitching, shaking bees on the bottom board. Their tongues were sticking out, and many looked already dead. No other colonies had this going on. There were no dead or dying bees in front of, or inside of any other colony. At first I thought it a pesticide kill. I dumped the bees from the second hive into a plastic grocery bag, and placed it in the shade behind a hive. When I finished the yard, I picked up the bag of dead bees, and opened it. All the "dead?" bees proceded to climb up the sides of the bag, and fly away. What might be happening here? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:09:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join and submit articles for consideration. While anyone may read BEE-L, those submitting articles, by doing so, agree that acceptance or rejection of posts to be sent to the list is at the sole discretion of the moderators. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. Failure to meet guidelines will result in rejection of your article. IN PARTICULAR, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES OR ANY PREVIOUS HEADERS WHEN REPLYING. CONTRIBUTIONS INCLUDING QUOTES THAT ARE NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO UNDERSTANDING WILL USUALLY BE REJECTED *WITHOUT NOTICE* FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:10:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: Using Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, You need to let the bees build up into several brood chambers to do the Killion method well. Then shake the bees into a single adding the sections just before the flow. The other brood chambers are set behind and allowed to rear a new queen. Then recombined for winter. If the brood chamber is congested take some empty comb from the parent and swap with the daughter. But there is more than one way to make sections. But I've found the Killion methods to be the best even though they require more work. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Using Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David & TB wrote: > it has been suggested > to put the Ross super on a hive with only one body (brood chamber?) on it. > But I thought the second brood chamber was necessary to control swarming. **************** Bees may need to be crowded to get them to use the odd comb configuration of a comb honey super. If the bees have room, they may ignore the comb honey super. Thus the recommendation to crowd the bees when the usual practice would be to give them lots of room. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40N 75W ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:06:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Using Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As a new beekeeper, the Ross Rounds super was suggested as an easy way to > get started. Upon reading some of the information, it has been suggested > to put the Ross super on a hive with only one body (brood chamber?) on it. > But I thought the second brood chamber was necessary to control swarming. > Any suggestions from someone who has used this before? The archives are full of advice on Ross Rounds, including advice from the owner of Ross rounds Inc, and advice from a beekeeper who was the world's largest producer of RR at one time. Hopefully you will find what you need there if you search using 'Ross' or 'section' and 'swarm' as keys with the substring option checked. If not, ask. Visit http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ and select "Can I Search the BEE-L Archives for keywords of Interest?". The rest of the information at that site is recommended reading for list members as well. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:06:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Program on bees and wasps on RTE1 Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations took part in a radio program on beekeeping this morning (Sunday 9th June) on the number one Irish Radio Channel - RTE1. Philip McCabe - the Vice President of FIBKA was our main presenter and a trio of beekeepers manned the telephones taking calls from members of the public. You can listen to this broadcast by visiting http://www.radio1.ie/audio_weekend.html and clicking on Mooney Goes Wild On One Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Miller Subject: Hive lifter? Planning for the future, I am looking for info on hive lifters. My catalogs don't list much. I saw the Billett hive loader site but no USA distributor. For now it will probably be just a hand truck but pollination requires a lot of movement. Any suggestions? Anyone use anything like this near Eastern North Carolina that I could see in use sometime? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:13:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials In-Reply-To: <200206061016.g56ADcRs022874@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L I wrote: > Please note that varroa/trachael mites and secondary > diseases were not > mentioned above as that is already considered proven with > prior 4.9mm wax > foundation already in industry hands. Dave Cushman replied: Certainly not proven, conjecture yes, some evidence yes, possible yes, but not proven. Reply: Yes, Dave this does make one wonder doesn't it! All I can say is, please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjdec1997.htm Titled: Arizona Beekeepers believes smaller size cell siameter is the answer to mite problems, American Bee Journal, Dec 1997. Also please note that Dr Eric Erickson Jr did the varroa mite survey count after only 4 months of regression onto 4.9mm foundation and our bees were still actively adjusting downward to survivalability with mites. Unfortunately, for some reason, no further surverys were done to see how our bees were progressing towards lower infestation levels in subsequent years. Question: If knowlingly is everything under the law, then is not wanting to knowlingly know future mite infestation levels acceptable practice? Since then Erik Osterlund has been to see our bees twice all the way from Sweden and written numerous articles on small cell size. Also Researchers from other countries have been here to see our bees and how they perform. Even Allen Dick and his friend Joe Meijer from Alberta Canada came down to see for themselves. In fact an article is running in Bee Culture in the June issue right now on this very subject concerning varroa infestation levels in our small cell bees. Proof!. . . All I can say is that to get creditable proof, research must knowingly want to know. Also be able to drive back across town here to get it, if knowlingly wanted for verification. Does research really want to know? That's what I'd like to know? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:33:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Using Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am using Ross Rounds this year for the first time. I only have one super of them and its almost 100% capped now. I just put another super on yesterday to give more space. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and All, Dee wrote: Does research really want to know? That's > what I'd like to know? I doubt any researcher on the list will respond so I will. Research did not see reducing cell size as the answer for the feral bee problem. In most areas of the U.S. the feral population has not returned. The precious research dollars were better spent on SMR. Introduction of the SMR genes to our bees could be a permanent solution for feral colonies and commercial beekeepers alike. The above does not make 4.9mm research less important but reducing cell size is not the solution for the feral population in my opinion. Beekeepers ARE skeptical as many cures for mites have been put forward over the last 15 years and most have proved of little value by our researchers. NONE HAVE RESTORED OUR FERAL BEES. Even chemicals can not restore the feral colonies. The direction our U.S. researchers have chosen might with Russian bees and SMR bees. With all due respect I wait to be shown that Italian bees on 4.9mm cell size can survive tracheal mites without treatment. Also small cell size is the answer for AFB and small hive beetle. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I do find it curious that my friend Allen Dick is using the *shoehorn* to downsize his bees to 4.9mm after all the posts about he had found the perfect cell size at 5.1mm. Maybe I ought to dig up a couple of those *shoehorn* posts from the past refering to downsizing. I do wish all the 49ers success and hope you will keep us posted on progress. I wonder if going even lower to say 4.8mm might be even better? Maybe 4.7mm would be better as closer to cerana cell size. Just thinking out loud . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:03:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee, Bob, Allen And all There is no point in raising all the previous prejudices about small cells. Fact is:- it still is not proven. I myself am convinced there is something in it, but feel that the establishment has decided that the phenomena, as observed, and as reported widely by the Lusbys, is due to AHB or similar genes, and as such is not worth further effort in research. Bob is a fan of SMR... This has it's part to play, no doubt, but is not the 'holy grail' either. Allen Dick raised these points... > I'm sure we all have our doubts and reservations about the > role of 4.9 cell size in Lusbys still incomplete success (They > still have to prove they can make honey). We will each have > to prove -- or disprove -- this whole thing for ourselves in > our own context. > Although I was, and probably still am, very much a doubter, > as I have listened and learned, I have concluded the idea is > not as preposterous as I initially thought. I am willing to give > it a shot if I have time and can find some bees that look as if > they would appreciate some smaller comb. I for one would like to know and understand more, I am not committed or aligned with any particular point of view. Yes, I will do some trials and experiments of my own, but no matter what the results of such trials, or how well conducted with controls and replication. The results themselves will carry no credibility, simply because I am not an established researcher. Even if such results show a particular replicatable trend and I manage to publish a paper about it, the establishment have declared that they already 'know' the answer to their satisfaction and their dollers should go elsewhere. My personal interest in small cellsize stems from a desire to use it as some sort of 'racial' filter for refining purity in strains. If this aspect alone shows any success, I will be happy, but if there is an improvement in disease resistance/tolerance I will accept that gratefully as well. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:01:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Snakes, ants, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it is worth, it seems to me that all of the comments on how to keep the hive entrance open are appropriate and will work. Three more ideas that I have used are: 1. Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow. A thin spray now will keep your entrances grass free for the rest of the season, with no damage to soil. I was introduced to this be a commercial queen breeder who told me not to even worry that getting bees drenched will hurt them...it will not! I use it exclusively. 2. Tarpaper. A lot less expensive and just as effective as carpet. Get it at your local Home Depot or roofing supply store. 3. A cup of vinegar to a gallon of water. Works just like Roundup(tm). Hope I have helped. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two most common reasons for not having a success with Ross Rounds supers are: 1. Putting a super on top of two deeps. Yes, two deeps does help (a great deal) in controlling swarming, but if faced with an alternative bees will always put honey in drawn comb before drawing new comb. Practically, this means that before starting to draw the comb in the Ross Rounds super, the bees will first fill the top deep with 80 pounds of honey! By then, the flow may be over. Shake all the bees into one deep and put the Ross Round super on top. (I put three on top!) 2. The second most common mistake is to not use the strongest hive a beekeeper has. Look at www.rossrounds.com, as well as in the Bee-L archives. Producing comb honey, and specifically Ross Rounds, should be one of the greatest thrills a beekeeper can have. Don't hesitate to contact me with any further questions. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:08:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Honeyflow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" re: > Seems to be a very good flow this spring here in South Eastern Ontario. > I am seeing the same here in central lower Michigan. T Hi Here in upstate NY we already have a nice crop of honey. To my friends in Michigan and Ontario I would ask: any idea what that's from? I am having a hard time figuring out where they got this stuff. Russian olive (Elaeagnus) was in bloom for weeks, yellow rocket (Barbarea), too. But black locust is just now under way. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:03:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Using Ross Rounds In-Reply-To: <200206100400.g5A3qTS4024868@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 6/10/2002 12:00 AM, you wrote: > Using Ross Rounds > >As a new beekeeper, the Ross Rounds super was suggested as an easy way to >get started. Hi There is no easy way to get started; making good comb honey is an art and is certainly not easy. The easiest way to keep bees is to run for extracted honey; a small extractor is a good investment. The next best way is to try cut comb honey using standard frames. You can put extra thin foundation in your frames and mix these in with the others. If you get nice honey you can pull out the wires and cut the comb into squares. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:15:51 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials In-Reply-To: <200206100026.g5A0QaRq020976@listserv.albany.edu> Dee Lusny wrote > Since then Erik Osterlund has been to see our bees twice > all the way from Sweden and written numerous articles on > small cell size. Erik Osterlund written numerous articles about his Elgon bees survivalability with mites in Israel and Denmark. The only trouble is that numerous swedish beekepers cant confirm that...either. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:54:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What a difference a few miles make! Peter Borst wrote: > Here in upstate NY we already have a nice crop of honey. To > ... But black locust is just now under way. Peter is located in Ithaca (where EAS 2002 will be held, early registration deadline is this Friday, see http://www.eas2002.cornell.edu/) whereas I'm located near Saratoga (also upstate NY) about 3 1/2 hours drive east of Ithaca. Here the black locust flow started, but only lasted two days and came to a quick end due to torrential downpours (2 tornadoes were spawned from the storm as it moved into western Massachusetts), followed by two days of high winds. Bees are currently robbing because there's very little to be found. Yellow sweet clover is just starting and I suspect the bees will settle down. Aaron Morris - thinking what a difference a few miles make! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in upstate NY we already have a nice crop of honey. To my friends in Michigan and Ontario I would ask: any idea what that's from? I am having a hard time figuring out where they got this stuff. Russian olive (Elaeagnus) was in bloom for weeks, yellow rocket (Barbarea), too. But black locust is just now under way. Hi Peter, We were trying to figure it out as well. I would almost have to think with the volume it would be from the trees. We had a good maple bloom here this year. Also many trees in flower of which I'm not familiar with. We just moved the bees to the area. I see basswood, but no bloom. I hope to extract by the end of the month. We should be complete our new home by the end of July. I'm going to have to move in the bee equipment a little early :) Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:58:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Do you have wild berries in your area? Some, but not a lot. Raspberries (and they're mostly cultivated) have already set, blackberries are blossoming now. Can't wait 'til pickin'! /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron, . Bees are currently robbing because there's very little to be > found. Yellow sweet clover is just starting and I suspect the bees will > settle down. Do you have wild berries in your area? Good source of nectar up here in the Adirondack mountains which is just starting. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:23:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Further Tales of the Elusive Queen Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Just a quick update-I had to get back into the hive with the "maybe yes, maybe no queen" Sunday evening for reasons that are not important to this. There were eggs and, lo and behold, a big, beautiful, dark queen with a big yellow dot on her thorax. Yes, she is alive and well in the hive and laying. I guess I get a bit antsy over things like this. Thanks for all of the input. Everyone who said "she's there", "be patient"-you were right. If patience is a virtue, I guess I need to work on it a bit harder! Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Honeyflow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To my friends in Michigan and Ontario I would ask: any idea what that's from? Here in Michigan-I don't have a Clue. Possibly Maples? Oak? Everything was late this spring because of the weather and I have been told that if a hive is built up enough which they were when the maples started, a surplus from Maple is possible. Other than dandelions and Cowslips(Marsh Marigolds) that is about it until clover and first cut Alfalfa. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: First Heartland Apicultural Society Convention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone subscribing to the list attending the First AHS Convention in July? Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Laying workers In-Reply-To: <200206101721.g5AHJFS0008365@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Actually saw a laying worker yesterday. It confirmed what I've heard about it being possible to have laying workers in a normal hive. The hive has a new queen, only about a month old, nearly perfect brood pattern, most of the frame filled, save the corners. The hive isn't big having just been split not long ago, but looked to be growing just as well as any other split this year. Then I noticed a worker with an egg halfway out it's rear crawling around the center of the frame. I don't think it's a problem, the queen is alive and well, certainly no signs of her failing. Just found it a really odd thing to see. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:26:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Hive lifter? In-Reply-To: <200206092256.g59MpLSU019996@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I personally use a modified hand truck modified with a set of forks welded on so that they are just longer than the depth of the hive (such that the hive can easily be picked up from the back). Also added some eye hooks to the upright pieces of the hand truck so some budgie straps can be used to secure the hive to the hand truck. It seems to work pretty well moving hives via a low trailer. The hard part is getting them on and off the handcart. I'm making some hive stands with a notches underneath so it's easy to slide the truck underneath (and the ratchet strap I use to keep the hive together too). Two person movers are out for me, and getting them on/off the trailer or truck only solves part of the problem. With the rain we had this spring I had to move several hives 400-500' into an orchard, and the hand truck worked quite well. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Snakes, ants, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All Lloyd's views are deserving of respect and consideration, but I have to disagree with his comments on "Roundup". I do agree with his statement about vinegar: > 3. A cup of vinegar to a gallon of water. Works just like Roundup(tm). Well, if it works "just like Roundup", why not use it? Vinegar is cheaper, and the techniques for using it are well-documented. As for the comments about Roundup, I cannot imagine why any beekeeper would buy and use the product, given what it has done to per-hive yields. > 1. Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow. There are many who disagree strongly with the statement made above. A simple web-search will allow one to read the current consensus, but the bottom line is that Roundup DOES contaminate soil and water, and is much more "long-lasting" than Monsanto would like everyone to think. For beekeepers, the "scorched earth" that results from use of Roundup means that massive areas have no "weeds" to support bee colonies. Edges of fields, fencelines, and other "unused" land that produced those 100 lb-plus per-hive yields of the early 1900s are now a universal brown. Needless to say, other beneficial and predatory insects are also eliminated when their habitat is eliminated with Roundup, which is one of the reasons that formerly insignificant pests can wipe out crops these days. According to studies published in the Journal of Pesticide Reform, Roundup damages the ability of bacteria to transform nitrogen into a usable form for plants, and harms fungi that help plants absorb water and nutrients. Significant residues of the herbicide have been found in lettuce, carrots, and barley that were planted a year after the soil was sprayed. The impact on nitrogen is of significant concern to beekeepers, since nitrogen-fixing bacteria are crucial to the growth of clovers, vetches, and all other legumes. The legumes are, in general, serious nectar sources for bees. Glyphosate, the active chemical in Roundup, is less toxic to humans in terms of acute hazards than many other herbicides, but it's the third most commonly reported cause of illness among agricultural workers in California. For landscape maintenance workers, it ranks highest. The other aspect of Roundup is that Monsanto has developed an entire line of "Roundup Ready" seeds (corn, canola, etc). Farmers using these seeds can spray the entire field with Roundup, even when their crop is growing. This means more extensive use of Roundup, more often. The problem with this is that such increased spraying means that there will be more "drift", killing the crops at the edges of adjacent fields, since Roundup kills ALL vegetation. This is a problem, unless, of course, the neighboring farmers ALSO buy "Roundup Ready" seeds. So, Roundup and "Roundup Ready" seeds is turning into a "protection racket". Either buy Monsanto's seeds, or suffer the consequences. > A thin spray now will keep your entrances grass free for the rest of the > season, with no damage to soil. Again, the "no damage" is a highly debatable point, with lots more evidence around to refute the statement than support it. > I was introduced to this be a commercial queen breeder... ...who, one would presume, was not a gardener of vegetables for his own consumption. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:08:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Herb & Naomi Isaac (Herb Isaac Sales)" Subject: Re: Hive lifter? We have forwarded a reply to the gentleman inquiring about the Billett loader and would be pleased to send information to others interested as well. We distribute this product in North America and have attended both the ABF and AHP convention trade shows in the past with information regarding the loader. Our web site is located at: http://www.herbee.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:20:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ps. I do find it curious that my friend Allen Dick is using the *shoehorn* > to downsize his bees to 4.9mm after all the posts about he had found the > perfect cell size at 5.1mm. Well, you may find it curious, but not half as curious as I find it myself, but there is method in my apparent madness. Things may not be quite what you assume. Let me explain. First, I'm not planning to downsize my bees. Joe bought some 4.9 foundation, and Dee is sending me some of the plastic, so what am I to do? Let it go to waste? I have noticed that some of my hives have bees that are smaller than others, and it seems intereresting to me to see if they will draw the foundation. I read BioBee for a while and others have reported that they have had success, so why not me? Second: I understand that there is a a natural distribution in bee sizes due to both genetic and evironmental factors. When I refer to 5.1 as appearing to be very near the median size for the *natural* size of cells built by bees I manage, it is very important to understand that I tend to think statistically, rather than in integers, even if I do not mention deviation. Moreover, I understand that there may not be a single population -- and thus multiple medians. Third: The problem also has recursive elements and is thus the type that is well suited to cut-and-try, bracketing, and other empirical approaches. Theory gets much too complex to quickly to be a reliable guide. Trials are quick and should be somewhat conclusive if done correctly. Fourth: I am hopelessly open-minded. I argue with people who have interesting ideas just to listen closely to any points they make that have merit so I can adopt their understanding as my own. I listen even more carefully to points that seem to lack merit, and try to imagine how they could seem logical to the person proposing them. Then I try to put myself in that person's shoes and try doing things this 'wrong' way -- just to see. Lastly: I am constantly trying to prove my own favourite understandings are wrong. If proving me wrong is lots of fun, why allow someone else that pleasure -- when I can have it all for myself? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:46:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Even Allen Dick and his friend Joe Meijer from Alberta Canada came down to see for themselves. Dee says 'even' Allen Dick... and that's the right word: "even". I think I'm known as a card-carrying sceptic, and I have given Dee a hard time about her explanations and historical interpretations, but I try to listen and observe objectively, regardless of my prejudices, and report what I see -- and I did not see many varroa, or much evidence of mite damage in Lusbys' outfit. I had a chance to attend a meeting of local Tucson beekeepers while I was there, and, as far as I can tell, these other beekeepers did not seem to think that varroa had stopped being a serious problem for them. I believe that all of them that were not using small cells were treating for varroa, but it is hard to tell what beekeepers are really doing, because they may say one thing and actually be doing another. That is not to say that beekeepers would deliberately mislead, it is simply that the truth can be complicated and hard to compress into a few sentences. Several other beekeepers in the Tucson area were using smaller cell foundation and some were playing a bit with 4.9, but as far as I could tell, no one else -- other than Lee -- had gone all the way to 4.9. Lee swears by 4.9 and uses no varroa treatments. He is a fair distance east of Lusbys in New Mexico and in a different climate area, I believe. I'm just going from casual memory from a social meeting here, and not was taking notes. I hope that , maybe, someone else from the Tucson area, like Lee or Harvey, will confirm my impressions. At any rate, I realize that the methods and many of the reports hardly look scientific, but I think we all know that progress and learning took place long before the discovery of the Scientific Method, and often continues (to the exasperation of many Scientists) without any recourse to it. I still take the position that what Lusbys are doing works in practice. All we need now is a satisfactory theory to explain it. > Does research really want to know? That is a good question. If 4.9 works, and is an otherwise acceptable mite control, it will certainly unwind a lot ongoing projects, from mite control projects to many bee breeding programmes. It may injure some reputations as well. I'm certainly watching this with interest, especially since there seems to be a fair amount of inexplicable passion on the part of some of those who claim to believe the idea is without merit. One of the criticisms widely made is that this is a "one time / one place" phenomenon, or dependant on some unique environmental factor local to Lusbys, and that the results have not been replicated elsewhere. Interestingly, there are now many people trying 4.9 cells on many varieties of EHB around North America and around the world. We hear of some failures, and some successes. It is hardly a scientific study, but any appreciable success will give the idea increases credibility and help define the parameters. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 05:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: First Heartland Apicultural Society Convention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Coleene I plan to attend the first AHS Convention. I only live about thirty miles from Goshen College. I am looking forward to this the schedule of topics look to be very interesting. To anyone in debate I would encourage you to come and help make this first meeting a great success. Regards Garrett Martin On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:26:17 -0400 Coleene Davidson writes: > Is anyone subscribing to the list attending the First AHS Convention > in > July? > > Coleene > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re-HoneyFlow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all flow watchers I am located in Northern Indiana. I have a large amount of wild raspberry plants in my area. I have noticed that a soon as these begin to bloom I had better be adding extra supers real quick. So I assume that I am getting a good flow off of raspberries. Unless there is another plant at the same time that I have not discovered yet. The honey that I get is very light almost clear and has a most wonderful delicate taste. I have customers who will only buy this honey. If it's not available they do without. Regards Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Does research really want to know? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dee: All I can say is that to get creditable proof, research must knowingly want to know... verification. Does research really want to know? That's what I'd like to know? Bob: I doubt any researcher on the list will respond Friends, I make my living doing honey bee research. I have no particular bias, except against things that cost a lot of money and do not work. I have spent thousands of hours working on the varroa problem. I recently posted a study done by a South African bee researcher which highlights the fact that varroa reproduce just as well in smaller cells with smaller bees. Just as well. (No one responded to the post.) As a beekeeper, I want to be able to get rid of varroa without chemicals, just as much as anybody else. When I got into bees in 1974, it was because of the interest I had in a career that kept me so close to nature all the time and seemed to be outside the normal agricultural practices which rely so heavily on chemicals. So it saddened me immensely to see beekeeping become just like the rest of them, dependent on chems. I have no blind spot in regard to a particular treatment. Two things which seem to have very little going for them are small cells and bottom screens. Two things which seem to have great potential are drone brood trapping and non-chemical fumigants. I don't know about mineral oil. The best bet, in my opinion, is in breeding a bee with better grooming habits, or some other anti-varroa traits. The research I am doing is focusing on this last approach. You can't do everything and you can't spend millions on things that have *apparently* little potential. Researchers are a favorite whipping boy around here. I have stayed in the discussion because I am at heart a beekeeper. It is very easy to say to people that disagree: you just don't want to know. In my case, however, that would be a mis-characterization. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: Hive lifter? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the rain we had this spring > I had to move several hives 400-500' into an orchard, and the hand truck > worked quite well. > > -Tim How big are the tires on your hand truck? Logan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:29:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Cerana mystery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Most researchers I have dealt with would read the Bee-L list but not respond. Thanks to Peter for expressing his views. We still have got a few mysteries to solve concerning varroa. Peter admits so by putting forth several possible avenues to solve the varroa problem. The one varroa mystery which has stumped the best researchers including Denis Anderson has been the cerana mystery. The cerana mystery has stumped Bob Harrison. The cerana mystery gives small cell its life as far as varroa control in my opinion. THE APIS CERANA MYSTERY: Varroa does not reproduce in the worker brood of cerana. It does in the cerana drone brood. As Dee has pointed in earlier posts correctly cerana IS almost the same size as Apis mellifera in certain areas of the world but cell size remains smaller than A.mellifera. Until the "varroa and cerana mystery* mystery is solved small cell will be worth looking at. Small cell size of cerana may not have anything to do with * the cerana mystery* BUT small cell is the one thing about cerana which keeps jumping out at you when the mystery is looked at. The one point which many overlook when thinking about cell size IS the fact a smaller cell size creates a earlier emerging time. The shorter the time in the cell the harder it is for varroa to reproduce. The longer the cell time as with drone brood the better for varroa. We do not however have conclusive proof the length of cell time IS the reason varroa prefers drone brood but the theory is widely accepted by many researchers. The actual size of the bee may have little to do with Dees bees being able to survive varroa mites. We simply do not know many things about bees and varroa. IMPORTANT FACT: **The cerana mystery continues to baffle varroa researchers. Seems we should find varroa reproducing at least to a small degree in cerana worker brood. ** Cerana also removes varroa infested drone brood and grooms varroa off each other which in my opinion is simply a strong hygienic behavior. Helps but NOT the reason cerana and varroa coexist so well. The varroa not reproducing in worker brood is the overwelming reason. Varoa mite load increases in the drone rearing period and decreases in the non drone rearing period. natural varroa control from Mother Nature. Think about the situation if varroa could NOT reproduce in the worker brood of A. mellifera. Varroa could be held at low levels year around naturally without any treatment at all. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. The facts I have stated above about cerana can all be verified by reading "The Varroa Handbook" from 1989. Very busy time for me or I would have given quotes and pages from the book. We are seeing a intense honey flow in Missouri. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:38:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? Comments: cc: DeeALusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <200206111227.g5BCBPTk015500@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: Dee: All I can say is that to get creditable proof, research must knowingly want to know...verification. Does research really want to know? That's what I'd like to know? Bob: I doubt any researcher on the list will respond Reply: Well, Peter, it seems someone does indeed want to know and I have now a list of (4-5) universities with researchers I will be getting 100 sheets of plastic 4.9 foundation for for trials from a manufacturer halfway around the world. So I guess if Michael Housel and a very serious group of dedicated beekeepers/researchers helping him in Florida can put a project together, then others around the USA, this time universities, can also. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:54:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials In-Reply-To: <200206101035.g5AAR9SA000180@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Dave Cushman wrote: I myself am convinced there is something in it, but feel that the establishment has decided that the phenomena, as observed, and as reported widely by the Lusbys, is due to AHB or similar genes, and as such is not worth further effort in research. Bob is a fan of SMR... This has it's part to play, no doubt, but is not the'holy grail' either. Allen Dick raised these points... > I'm sure we all have our doubts and reservations about the > role of 4.9 cell size in Lusbys still incomplete success (They still have to prove they can make honey). We will each have to prove -- or disprove -- this whole thing for ourselves in our own context. Reply: Hi Dave, being no union card member like you, and only believing that there are yellow bees and black bees, and big bees and small bees, and artificially enlarged/artificially bred complex mongrel bees vs natural honeybees, I find it good there are only two main thoughts that I need to pay attention to! Namely, the actual identification by analysis of our bees through DNA to pinpoint what they actually are if researchers ACTUALLY can and DESIRE to do so; and to make a honey crop to satisfy you. We are now in an Arizona State declared worst drought in over 100 years right now, but non-the-less we are now taking honey with our bees, while others in our area are not, but an El Nino is projected in this fall. So knowing the speed, analysis is done for accuarcy for ID of honeybees these days, and needing rain for plants to grow for a wet year for honey gathering, I shall have to report back to you on both of these two areas you question in your mind. But I will report back and hopefully sooner then later. Any other areas in your mind I need to pay attention to? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:35:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Been doing some experimentation of my own with this Plastic 4.9mm foundation to see what it will stand in the way of abuse by beekeepers. I took a sheet (hated to do that knowing so few have been made) and cut it in pieces with tin snips and put pieces in microwave for 10 minutes on high to see what would happen! Also took the same pieces and put them in large cooking pot in water and boiled for over an hour so see what would happen! Then after talking to Michael housel jokingly in chat, I thought about what he said and decided to jump on it. Well, results. . . . . maybe not good tests by some standards, but I still got the plastic unwarped and uncurled and unshrunk, and impressions still good for bees to work with. Then when I measured it, it still measured the same!!! So I think it is pretty good stuff, this plastic, knowing how beekeepers misuse stuff, and the sheets in the long run will hve to be reprocessed and melted down from time to time. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:37:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Researchers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Peter commented: "You can't do everything and you can't spend millions on things that have *apparently* little potential. Researchers are a favorite whipping boy around here. I have stayed in the discussion because I am at heart a beekeeper." I'd have to agree with Peter. One has to choose what avenues of research to pursue - and that choice often is not totally left to the researcher. For example, each of the bee labs has a specific mission, and each scientist has to be accountable to the lab director AND in the case of both federal laboratory and academic researchers, the decision also is influenced by who, if anyone, will fund the research. Competition for research funds is keen -- many agencies fund less than 1 out of 8 proposals, some far less than that. Let's try an analogy. Imagine if you offer pollination services, and you had to spend 2 weeks preparing a proposal to each prospective grower, and then 1 or of 8 to 10 actually hired you, and then they decided to negotiate a lower bid price. Let's see, that's 2 weeks for each bid - why 2 weeks? Proposals are a form of detailed bid. They typically are 10-16 paqes of text with a review of relevant literature, the proposal itself, the research plan, and possibly a Quality Assurance Plan and maybe even a Safety Plan, plus a detailed budget for each year of the research, and resumes for all investigators and principal staff)- you usually end up with 20+ pages of detailed text). Proposals for large scale research may run to over 100 pages -- with no assurance of success. So, back to our analogy, you'd have to spend 20 weeks preparing the bids to your 10 growers, and hopefully, you'd get a contract from 1 or 2 -- but you wouldn't know until just before the bees are needed. Oh, did I mention, that there is usually almost a year delay from time of submission to receipt of funding for a successful proposal -- and proposals are only accepted once a year on a specific day. Three months at best, six months from some agencies, and I've waited up to two years before getting the money from some funding sources. AND, you usually have to write a completely different proposal for each "bid" -- the agencies ask whether the proposal or any part of it has been submitted to any other potential funding source. So, here our analogy to pollination bids falls down, because you probably could only submit one bid to one grower at a time, if you had to follow our rules, and could only re-submit after receiving a rejection, which almost always comes the week after the current year's new bid date has passed. The agencies do this deliberately to keep down the number of resubmissions. So, you've just lost another year. Although some of my academic colleagues might disagree, research is a business. Like the beekeeping business, it has associated costs -- and it has competition, and it involves intellectual property rights, patents, copyrights, etc. The complaint is that scientists don't publish emerging results on this list. Well, I'd like to, but the journals won't accept work that has already been published - I can tell you about things we are doing at a beekeeping meeting, but the moment that I write it down, it is considered to have been published. The patent/copyright folks will immediately declare anything that we invent to have been disclosed to the public and as such can't be patented. I suspect that if you had invented a new uncapper, Ross Rounds, a hive lifter, etc. and couldn't patent it because you talked about it on Bee-L, you'd not stay in business very long. Unfortunately, we don't have patrons that just give us money to research whatever we like. Some researchers are lucky enough to have a salary paid, and maybe get a little bid of discretionary money. Others, like us, have to find every nickel for everything from salaries to travel to research to the pens on our desks. Most scientists have to find the dollars to support their research. Finally, a person does not have to have a degree or be employed as a scientist to conduct research. There are many examples of successful and influential researchers who conduct studies because of personnel interest - their day job may be completely different. And most anyone can conduct research - we published a paper in SCIENCE in 1985 of a very successful study conducted with a large group of beekeepers (researchers) from the Seattle/Tacoma area. However, few researchers have the resources or are willing to take the economic risk that Dee Lusby has. Most of us, like you, need to get paid and try to avoid bankruptcy. As per Peter's comments about being a whipping boy - like Rodney Dangerfield, we often don't get any respect. It always saddens me to see this negative attitude, and like Peter, I stay with the list because I like bees and most beekeepers. I learn a lot from both. But, once in a while, I'm tempted to unsubscribe when the vitriolic comments start up. And then I remind myself that there are fundamental similarities and differences among the groups. I'd say most bee keepers and bee researchers like to work with bees. But, beekeepers want to keep every colony alive and well and want to make honey, pollinate, etc. They don't want to do research, but do want answers -- and quick. Researchers by nature have to be skeptics. We deliberately set out to prove the null hypothesis. You often set out to prove your own opinion or concept is wrong, rather than trying to prove that your favorite idea is right. That may seem strange, but its fundamental to objectivity. Also, a lot may hang on the outcome of your research. I for one do not want to say I have found the magic bullet for controlling mites unless I am absolutely sure that it will work and won't harm bees. So, I'm cautious about premature proclamations. Sorry, but if I wasn't this way, I'd not make a very good scientist. As my mother used to say, I was born with the word WHY? on my lips, and I still ask that question every day. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:10:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: How Long Does it Take for Bees to Find a Nectar Source Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77963BC0; boundary="=======1D5D7537=======" --=======1D5D7537======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77963BC0; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi I have just moved some colonies within half a mile of an extensive crop of field beans. This move was a bit late as the beans are already in flower. How long does it take for bees to locate and start working a new crop in this situation? Regards Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======1D5D7537=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:21:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials In-Reply-To: <200206061648.g56FuDTq029039@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:13 AM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: >Also a quart of syrup every couple weeks will NOT get plastic drawn. Be >prepared to feed plenty syrup to get plastic drawn if your intention is to >draw plastic with syrup. Agreed. I've seen a good swarm draw a deep and medium super from plastic foundation in two weeks (9 frames each) when fed with a pair of those frame feeders. They consumed about a half gallon a day for about the first week. They simply cannot get enough access to the syrup from the overturned quart jar. My experience has been that under the right conditions (warm and fed well) they will happily build on plastic as well as wax. Under the wrong conditions they won't build on either (but they will chew holes in the wax). -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Hive lifter? In-Reply-To: <200206111227.g5BCBPU0015500@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:57 AM 6/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >How big are the tires on your hand truck? 10" pneumatic tires. It's just the cheap $30 hard cart I see at just about every store. It might be worth using larger tires to make moving on uneven surfaces easier, though the 10" ones work well for me. Recently used it to move my purchase at an auction, moving 8 mediums at a time to my truck. I was rather surprised by the number of stares and comments from the other beekeepers (typically moving 2-3 a time by hand). It has saved me lots of time moving supers out to the bee yard this year. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:45:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: How Long Does it Take for Bees to Find a Nectar Source In-Reply-To: <200206111559.g5BFoUSa020360@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Mike Rowbottom wrote: >I have just moved some colonies within half a mile of an extensive crop of >field beans. This move was a bit late as the beans are already in >flower. How long does it take for bees to locate and start working a new >crop in this situation? ************* Actually, one can speed up that process by inserting odor of the crop into the hives, as von Frisch and Russian workers learned in the late 1930s and early 1940s. For some excerpts from von Frisch's 1943 article (in translation), one can visit the following web site: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943.htm It would be best, of course, if the hives were generally located downwind from the crop of beans at that distance. For more information on that, check numbers 24,25, and 26 in the following web site: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Or turn to the Oct (p.746), Nov (p.807), and Dec (p.897) articles in the 1998 AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL for that latter information. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:53:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Researchers are a favorite whipping boy around here... Does anyone really believe this? Or is this just more of the same, only directed at BEE-L? allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Wayne F. Young" Subject: Beetles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All, A few weeks ago someone asked about gray-black beetles with yellow spots on their back.I have also found them in some of my hives.These beetles are around 3/8 of an inch in length when fully grown.They also have a one segment shell rather than two. Does anyone have any idea what these are,and if they can harm a hive? Thank You Wayne Young ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:00:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Cerana mystery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > The one point which many overlook when thinking about cell size IS the fact > a smaller cell size creates a earlier emerging time. I have seen the fact that AHB emerges earlier, but not EHB. I raised this as an issue way back when Varroa first emerged as a pest and was pointed to a study in Sweden that did not show any difference in emergence because of cell size. Shot down my theory but if recent studies show differently, then nice to be vindicated. It does seem to make sense, but .... do short, small women deliver babies earlier than larger women? Is the size of the cell important or genetics? Do AHB take longer in large foundation? All that I have seen is that AHB still take less time no matter the cell size which is why they are dominant. If the cell size does make a difference than both AHB and EHB will emerge at the same time and AHB will no longer be dominant, but I have seen nothing that says this is true. And I agree with Peter in the hits that true researchers take on this list compared to gifted amateurs who are treated with deference, in spite of the brand of snake oil they are selling. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:19:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Testing for a queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Someone suggested testing with a frame of eggs/young larvae to see if a hive has a queen before ordering a new one. There is a minus to this procedure and it is time. While waiting to see how this comes out, old bees are dying and the colony is dwindling. I think it makes more sense to order a new queen at once and consider her purchase price as the premium on an insurance policy. If there was a new queen in the colony the store-bought one will get killed but you will not have wasted any precious days. I keep a queen excluder under my hive to force swarms to self-retrieve but am aware that it might keep a virgin queen from mating. In this situation of uncertainty, I remove the excluder and also insert a new mated queen. Usually I'm wrong and the new queen gets killed but I don't lose any population unnecessarily. Dan Hendricks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:09:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Beetles In-Reply-To: <200206111800.g5BHUiT0022545@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Al Lipscomb first wrote: The beetle is about the size of a worker. It is dark brown with yellow flecks on its back. In the sun it looked like the beetle may have had a metalic blue (kind of like oil on water) coloring. Wayne Young then wrote: >A few weeks ago someone asked about gray-black beetles with yellow spots on >their back.I have also found them in some of my hives.These beetles are >around 3/8 of an inch in length when fully grown.They also have a one >segment shell rather than two. Verbal descriptions of insects usually do not provide enough information for identification. There are two beetle types that may end up in hives. Dermestid beetles feed on debris in hive bottoms. They can be identified by the fact that most of them have a white pubescence (mat of fine hairs) on the underside of their abdomens. Carrion beetles could also enter hives. My book reads: "The beetles in this family ... commonly feed on decaying animal matter and other insect larvae associated with it ... A few species are found in the nests of ants...They are usually black, with orange, red, or yellow markings..." If either of them can mail me some specimens in a vial of alcohol, I would gladly provide a better identification (particularly since our museum has hired a new entomologist who specializes in beetles). Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:20:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Snelgrove Double(?) screen. In-Reply-To: <200206091337.g59DSDSO013962@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200206091337.g59DSDSO013962@listserv.albany.edu>, Bumble writes >In reading my copy of Snelgrove (10th ed Feb 1956) he shows the screen >board as having only one layer of mesh in its construction. However I have >heard it referred to as a "double screen" board and a beekeeper of over 50 >years experience told me that a single layer of screen will not work and >that screen should be placed on both sides of the board. What is the >opinion of the list? I have used it successfully by having one area permanently with a single layer of mesh and the other a piece of queen excluder - mesh (actually perforated zinc) is put over it once the bees are in equilibrium (enough young bees upstairs with the eggs, larvae and queen cells). It always seems to work well. But in all cases I have used it, there are honey supers between the two parts having the old queen or queen cells and a queen excluder over the lowest box. Therefore there is a large distance between queens. I don't always use more than one upper entrance, even then, usually only 2, not 3 as Snelgrove proposed. The Horsley version has a moveable slider operated from outside the hive - closed entrance and open queen excluder - open entrance and closed queen excluder - but only one entrance. Both are easy to use without finding the old queen. Shake all bees off and move frames to the new box which will be put to the top. Fill up as usual. Re-build and let the bees sort themselves out before closing the passage between the 2 parts. The value of the temporary access is to ensure the brood has enough bees. This avoids any potential problems of having too few nurse bees in the split or even with the old queen. Hence the value of the double screen. Though this may not be what you meant. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little/Coldiron Farm Subject: Yellow Larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, A few days ago, I was inspecting the brood chambers of a few of my hives and ran across a couple that had larvae with a very faint yellow hue to them. One colony seemed to be healthy, but the other was pretty weak. Anyone have any idea of what this is? Thanks Mark in West Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Researchers may get a lot of heated debate on this list but I am not sure that is a bad thing. I am not saying that everything posted is in the best taste or of noble nature, but a lot of it needs to be asked. Too many "researchers" have shown up with "the one true cure" for something and had their prescriptions found lacking. > > > > Researchers are a favorite whipping boy around here... > > Does anyone really believe this? Or is this just more of the > same, only > directed at BEE-L? > > allen > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:48:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Double Screens and Newspaper and Intolerance for Researchers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I took the question concerning double screens to be "is a double screen really necessary, or will a single screen work just as well?" Long ago I read that the need for a double screen barrier was a classic example of a hand-me-down statement lacking a single piece of logic or demonstrated need. Accordingly, I have tried a single screen in a number of situations that "classically" call for a double screen. These situations include overwintering a colony on top of another and running a vertical two-queen colony. In both cases I was successful and did not notice any fighting or upset between the colonies. In a similar vein, it is most often recommended that colonies be combined with a newspaper barrier between; the logic being that the newspaper prevents the "shock" of adding a new population and lets the bees gradually mingle. After noticing that a double layer of newspaper will completely disappear from 8:00 PM one evening to 7:00 AM the next morning, I read that successful combination will also result without a newspaper barrier. I next tried it...with complete success. Peter and Bill have recently commented on the supposed intolerance shown toward researchers, particularly when compared to gifted amateurs. As one who is neither, I will only express the view that whatever intolerance has been shown is not toward researchers as a class, but instead is directed at a perceived level of arrogance...as if being a "researcher" entitles ones opinions to be treated with greater (or god-like) respect. I believe the proof of this is shown by the fact that some researchers on the list are widely respected...and others much less so. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Yellow Larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark and All, Mark wrote: I was inspecting the brood chambers of a few of my hives and I ran across a couple that had larvae with a very faint yellow hue to them. Apparently the larva has enough of a yellow hue for you to consider the larva *abnormal* compared to other larva you have looked at . If so I would keep a close check or treat . I suspect maybe you are seeing the start of European foulbrood. European foulbrood afects the larva stage (most of the time but not always) and AFB effects the pupa stage. Terramycin will normally clear up EFB. EFB and Afb are fairly easy to tell apart in early stages. There are several other possible larva conditions which could cause yellow larva but early stage EFB is the most common. Many times the larva turn yellow at first aand then brown. Many times then the tracheal system becomes visible as a glistening vein like network throughout the larvel body. Once in a scale the scale is removed by the bees quite easily (unlike AFB). I could add quite a bit about the disease but all bee books in the library contain information. In my opinion you are looking at early symptom EFB. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:32:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? In-Reply-To: <200206121230.g5CBdBTi012951@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Al said: >Too many "researchers" have shown up with "the one true cure" for >something and had their prescriptions found lacking. I'd argue that a true researcher will never tout a cure - research is based on probability (what's the chance of the finding being due to a mistake, error, or artifact?). That's why we use statistics, repeat experiments, and use controls. That also takes time, something a person with a problem doesn't have - time to wait for a "proven" solution. And even in the best of cases, new information may change the whole issue. Be wary of anyone proclaiming themselves an expert with the magic bullet. If it really works, the data will speak for itself. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:57:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Does research really want to know? In-Reply-To: <200206120401.g5C3vbT0006947@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The posts concerning the differences between what beekeepers and researchers want brought to mind a panel discussion at the American Beekeeping Federation some time back. In part, I wrote at that time," Many beekeepers see scientists as employed to solve applied problems and publish the results in accessible trade journals. They often have little patience for research published in scientific journals, especially that which they perceive has little practical value. A good many researchers, on the other hand, see beekeepers as supplying little, if any, funding. As a consequence, they have little patience for what they often view as complaints by a cadre of folks who are not informed about what really is involved in bee research. Unfortunately, this conflict sometimes leads to beekeepers becoming fed up with researchers, and vice versa. In the worst-case scenario beekeepers may accuse researchers of complacency, even complicity, in ignoring their needs. At the same time scientists can lose respect for beekeepers, who they perceive as ungrateful for research even when it does directly affect their livelihood. " See the rest of the story at: http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis98/apmar98.htm#1 Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford Retired Extension Apiculturist, Professor Emeritus University of Florida To subscribe to the revamped Apis newsletter, see: http://apis.shorturl.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry and All, Jerry wrote: That's why we use statistics, repeat experiments, and use controls. That also takes time, something a person with a problem doesn't have - time to wait for a "proven" solution. When is a theory considered *proven*. It seems it is hard these days to prove any new concept. If you look for instance at the book "Mites of the Honey Bee" by Delaplane you quickly see that Dr. Delaplane adds a number of studies behind each statement he makes in favor of said concept and a number of studies which disagree with the concept. Most bee books of the last decade and papers on bees use the method. In old bee books statements were put forth as gospel. Why not today? Who looks at the studies you researchers have run (many identical with different results) and decides which is the correct concept or are researchers like weathermen . Right or wrong still have got a job. Do the study and simply toss out the results and let the masses figure out for themselves the proper conclusion? As in my discussion with Bill I can find plenty of studies supporting my point of view and while looking I found a couple supporting his point of view. Bill if you are reading this (of course you are) that's the reason I did not contradict the statements you made on the cerana post. Although there are more studies agreeing with me there are studies (to be fair) supporting your view point. Page 212 of *Mites of the Honey Bee* says that although the five studies listed are convinced that "a shorter post capping period is a significant factor in limiting mite reproduction , Quote from book: NO ONE HAS PROVIDED DATA THAT SUPPORTS THE HYPOTHESIS THAT THERE IS A CORRELATION BETWEEN THE DURATION OF THE CAPPED BROOD STAGE AND THE REPRODUCTION STAGE OF THE MITE. Dr. Delplane carefully covers his tail but really folks *how many studies ( five cited by Delaplane) are we going to have done before we establish the above as gospel*? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:12:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Be wary of anyone > proclaiming themselves an expert with the magic bullet. If it really > works, the data will speak for itself. I think we have come full circle here on the above subject. As far as 4.9 cell sizing is concerned no one seems to want to collect the data. How can it speak for itself? The fact that the Lusby's haven't used any treatments of any type on 4.9 in in over six years give it at least some merit. I'm certain Dee and Ed Lusby would let the research be done. Why no takers? The bees are there? USDA isn't too far away(across town). How could they possibly be to busy to look? They come from across the ocean to look(Europe), but not across town? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:08:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? In-Reply-To: <200206121632.g5CFqxU2019317@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit huestis' wrote: > > I think we have come full circle here on the above subject. As far as 4.9 > cell sizing is concerned no one seems to want to collect the data. How can > it speak for itself? I figured out the other day what it is that bothers me when people say this. It seems that we have proponents of 4.9 cell size complaining that *other people* will not do studies on their pet theory. Is there some reason why the 4.9 proponents can not perform such studies themselves? I don't expect a hobbyist with 4 hives to be able to do a meaningful study (although a group of hobbyists together might be able to) but certainly somebody with a larger operation, like the Lusbys for example, could choose a couple yards to be half small cells and half regular cells, treat all hives identically in all other respects, and measure the results. > The fact that the Lusby's haven't used any treatments > of any type on 4.9 in in over six years give it at least some merit. If Dee and Ed have productive, manageable bees that survive varroa without treatment that is indeed an accomplishment and I would sure like to understand both if and how that is done. Currently, I am not aware of anything stronger than gut feel saying that small cell size contributes to that success. It could equally well be that their breeding program has been very successful and that small celled comb is irrelevant, no? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? In-Reply-To: <200206121631.g5CFqxTk019317@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: [...] > Who looks at > the studies you researchers have run (many identical with > different results) and decides which is the correct concept Ultimately *you* do for your operation, and *I* do for mine. Do you want somebody else deciding for you? > or are researchers like weathermen. Right or wrong still > have got a job. Do the study and simply toss out the > results and let the masses figure out for themselves the proper > conclusion? Have you got some constructive suggestions to make in this regard? > Dr. Delplane carefully covers his tail but really folks *how many studies > ( five cited by Delaplane) are we going to have done before we > establish the above as gospel*? Personally I don't take anything as gospel, and neither, I hope and expect, do the researchers. As more information becomes available old theories will often be toppled - so it has always been and so I think it should be. Day by day we work with the best data we have, replacing it if and when better data becomes available. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:19:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/06/02 05:27:27 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << non-chemical fumigants. >> Peter, What are these? Can you give some examples please? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:22:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Researchers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/06/02 05:27:27 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Finally, a person does not have to have a degree or be employed as a scientist to conduct research. There are many examples of successful and influential researchers who conduct studies because of personnel interest - their day job may be completely different. And most anyone can conduct research - we published a paper in SCIENCE in 1985 of a very successful study conducted with a large group of beekeepers (researchers) from the Seattle/Tacoma area. However, few researchers have the resources or are willing to take the economic risk that Dee Lusby has. Most of us, like you, need to get paid and try to avoid bankruptcy. >> Jerry, A few of us amateurs on the eastern side of the Atlantic have been discussing on and off how we can conduct or take part in research in a way that would be useful, scientific and be taken seriously by the professionals. Can you offer any guidance? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:02:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. I got my sample of plastic 4.9 a couple of days ago. Unfortunately I don't have a strong hive to put it on, due to a major pesticide kill three weeks ago which left my bees badly weakened. The hive I'm planning to use was recently shaken down onto 5mm foundation, from 5.4mm, and is drawing it nicely. I'm going to give them a box of the plastic, with two or three frames of wax for comparison. As there's only 1mm difference, I'm hoping they won't have any problems. We'll see how it goes. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:02:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Yellow Larvae In-Reply-To: <200206121219.g5CCHqS2013913@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200206121219.g5CCHqS2013913@listserv.albany.edu>, Mark Coldiron writes >A few days ago, I was inspecting the brood chambers of a few of my hives and >ran across a couple that had larvae with a very faint yellow hue to them. >One colony seemed to be healthy, but the other was pretty weak. > >Anyone have any idea of what this is? Were the larvae in a normal position in the cell? Take one out and see if the gut is not white. It should be the colour of the pollen. If it is white, it is likely to be EFB. Other clues would be an uneven brood pattern on account of bees removing diseased larvae. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank and All, Frank wrote concerning the Lusbys success: It could equally well be that their breeding program has been very successful and that small celled comb is irrelevant, no? I always look for the simple explanation first and then look at the complex answer. I believe there are some logical explanations for the Lusby success other than small cell size like Frank. I will only touch on one aspect in this post but I could point to many possible reasons for their success other than cell size. At the Savannah ABF convention Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman head of the Tucson Bee lab reported strong capensis traits being by the bee lab in the feral bees of Arizona. Capensis are not aggressive bees which would explain Allen Dicks Arizona observations. Capensis are black in color which would explain the dark color Dee breeds for. We know capensis were released in Brazil by Dr. Kerr which would explain the capensis genes showing up in Arizona. Capensis laying worker traits ( thelytoky)are reported as common in Dees bees. Also reported by the bee lab as common in the feral colonies of Arizona from which Dee and Ed get swarms. Dee reports a shorter duration of the post capping stage in her bees. Capensis has the shortest duration of any race of bee (19 days) which most ( all studies I have looked at about 80% for to 20% against the concept as post capping time being the reason) researchers believe is why capensis handles varroa the best of the African bees . All researchers I have talked to are in agreement capensis handles varroa the best but still argue about why EVEN THOUGH MANY POINTS ARE UNIQUE TO CAPENSIS. The two points most argued are cell size and post capping time with a few growth hormone people. We simply do not know the answer or at least not enough *proof* for the researchers. Possibly the answer is a combination of all three. Could capensis genes explain some of Dees success? I believe it could. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:49:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all Today I had a customer ask if we had any green honey. I told her that I had never heard of green honey. She told that this honey comes from the Black Forest. Now she got my attention. I found out that she came from Germany some 50 years ago and would like to get a hold of green honey. She informed me that this honey comes from the pine tree. So my question is. Is this true? If not where does it come from? Also if it does come from the pine tree, then why do I not get a flow off of my northern Indiana pines? She also had a great story of how she fled her home ahead of Hitlers army and ended up in America. One of the many things that makes selling honey so fun is to meet people hear their stories, and learn about green honey. Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:28:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Research Greetings all, I have been watching the discussion on bee research for several reasons. I find scientific study and research quite fascinating. As a science teacher, each year, I cover the basics with my students about how research is conducted, what info is considered valid, and the steps to be followed. Next year, I intend to use this discussion as a stepping stone into the realm of scientific research for my students, and show them that researchers and laypeople dont always agree on the results, or how to use the information. One thing the students dont seem to grasp is that average ordinary people can do valid research. A couple of things have not been addressed in this discussion, and I would like to mention them. First, anyone can do valid and important research even though they are not affiliated with any educational or government institution. Some of the greatest inventions known have come from everyday people who asked the question "why?". For research to be valid and meaningful, one must adhere to scientific guidelines that are recognized the world over. These guidelines are a series of steps or conditions that must be met, and are often referred to as the Scientific Method. The basic steps of the scientific method can be found in most any high school or college science textbook. For the research to be meaningful, these steps must be used. Also, proper recordkeeping and notetaking is extremely important. You want to be as thorough as possible, so that someone else, using your data can perform the experiment to check and validate results. In addition, numbers are important. Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics ran thousands of trials for each of the 8 traits he studied in his pea plants. Also, be objective. Dont try to make the results meet your hypothesis. This is a good example of "poor science". A failed experiment has merit, and is a starting place for further study. Lastly, know your terminology. Most of what we deal with is hypothesis, not theory. A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven over and over again. A law is a theory that has been shown to be absolutely true every time. The sun rising in the east and setting in the west is a good everyday example of a law. If you are interested in running some trials on something, contact your local agriculture extension office. I know here in Missouri, ours is willing to help out if you have a good idea for an experiment, and they can even help you write a grant to get money for your study. Good luck, and thanks! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:13:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yellow Larvae Whoa! Terramycin does not kill EFB - it is a bacteriostat not a bacteriocide - and will only stop EFB whilst the terramycin is active. If the bees do not clear the bacteria during this temporary break, then EFB will recur. Yellow larvae may be due to their diet - a yellow gut, from eating pollen, is a good sign; EFB bacteria multiplying in the gut cause it to turn white and this is a classic sign of EFB. The obvious symptoms are dying (unsealed) larvae with a melted down appearance and larvae that move into unnatural positions, typically twisting and turning over so that their backs are facing the top of the cell. See: http://www.csl.gov.uk/prodserv/cons/bee/factsheets/fbleaflet.pdf for full details. Peter Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: non-chemical fumigants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Chris writes: << non-chemical fumigants. >> What are these? Can you give some examples please? I gave this example of promising a treatment for varroa. Of course, I realize that all fumigants contain chemicals, everything does. But I was referring to plants or plant extracts. Some of these have shown results under certain conditions. A plant that you could burn in your smoker that killed mites, now there is something that we all could use! Unfortunately, I don't know what it is yet. I just think the idea holds promise. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:50:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Botanicals for Mite Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Botanicals for Mite Control http://www.honeycouncil.ca/kevan.html I am not involved in any studies on this at this time -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:20:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Excerpts from: American Bee Research Conference Originally published in The Speedy Bee, March, April, June 1998 (Vols. 3, Nos. 3,4,6) >Sponsored by the American Association of Professional Apiculturists, >the ABRC has become an important way for scientists to exchange >information among themselves, and at the same time, share their >results with the beekeeping community. > >the majority of ABRC presentations were applied in nature > >-- -- and -- -- shared their views on the pressures that >researchers face. These boil down to two major issues. Researchers >get little credit at their institutions for publishing in lay >journals. Money runs the research establishment; big grants are >funded by national institutions in basic research. Those trying to >do applied research face extremely limited budgets and little >support from colleagues. > >-- -- in his opening statement said that research does not help >commercial beekeepers. In addition, he concluded that information on >pollination is not up to date and was necessary in these times when >many beekeepers were going out of business. Here is a respected commercial beekeeper saying point blank: "research does not help commercial beekeepers". I have heard this many times. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Would this honey be a type of honey dew? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:21:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis' Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, > Could capensis genes explain some of Dees success? I believe it could. Last I heard from Dee was that her bees were similar to caucasian bees , but not a complete match. Dee's bees crashed on larger cell sizing just like the rest of us. The Lusby's then brought the cell size down twice. Mostly survival of the fittest. As for capensis, AHB, anything else: as I said before USDA is across town. I'm sure someone there can test for race? Why don't they? Even out of personal interest? Are they afraid what they might find? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garrett M Martin wrote: > She informed me that this honey > comes from the pine tree. So my question is. Is this true? Yes, It is honeydew from aphids feeding on pines. I cannot testify about the green color since I do occasionally get "green" honey but it is supposed to be caused by purple loosestrife. It might be honeydew. There are a couple of different pine honeydews, one of which is very bad for bees in any season but both are bad for bees to overwinter on in cold winters like we have in Maine. It ferments easily and contributes to dysentery. I lost a hive because of it, so now I do not let my hives over winter on fall honey, which is when the Pine honeydew comes in. It is considered a very good honey in Germany. I can't testify to how good it is since I am not sure which one it is of the many sources that contribute to my dark and excellent tasting fall honey. It definitely does not hurt it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:48:18 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garrett Black Forrest honey, green honey, pine honey and honeydew honey are all the same honey. The bees gather the excrement from aphids feeding on plant juices on the tender growth of the pine trees. This plant juice is very low in protein and high in sugars so the aphid must pass a lot of juice through it's body to get enough protein and expells the excess sugars. Honeydew has a rather unique and (many people believe) pleasant flavor but it isn't a true honey in the purest sense. That is to say it is not made by bees from flower nectar. I do recommend everyone try to get a taste of honeydew. I was always told it looks and tastes like 40 weight motor oil..... it doesn't. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Canada A long way from any pine forrests or honeydew. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:13:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony Morgan Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8r=2DTr=F8ndelag?= University College Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Yes, It is honeydew from aphids feeding on pines. I cannot testify about > the green color .... The aphid excretion of honeydew on any plant/bush/tree provides a media for the growth of black sooty-mold fungus. Here the honey we get with some proportion of honeydew (from norwegian spruce ie. christmas trees) has a distinctly smokey or even dirty look - but is never green - due to traces of the fungus. It is generally accepted that pine honeydew honey is not good for overwintering, however a study in Slovenia showed that carniolans tolerated it very well whereas italian bees overwintered poorly. cheers Tony Morgan -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:22:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Yellow Larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Peter we have had this discussion before on the Irish bee list a few years ago I believe . I am truly sorry terramycin can not be used in your country or so I have been told for EFB (European foulbrood). Ken Hoare and others in the UK advocate the burning of equipment etc. for EFB. Most beekeepers in the U.S. only consider EFB as a minor problem. Easily cleared up with terramycin and easily cleaned up by the bees. Even though a bacteriostat the terramycin works if used properly and a hell of a lot easier than the procedures used against EFB in the UK. Many UK beekeepers use the same methods recommended in the U.S. for advance AFB ( American foulbrood) for EFB (burning, scorching etc.). In my opinion burning is not working as the best control in the U.K. because of the high amount of EFB problems which were talked about on the IBL list while I was on the list. Although most bee books recommend burning etc. in extreme cases of EFB I have always been able to cure my EFB with antibiotic treatment. True a diagnosis of EFB when really AFB by a beginner could result in a problem because of the difference in spores BUT the treatment for both recommended in the U.S. for early detection IS the same. Terramycin. Also the antibiotic recommended by the Canadians. I am now talking AFB: As I posted on the IBL. Burning did not eradicate AFB from U.S. bee hives in the first half of the last century. The USDA was burning every hive with even a single cell of AFB. *Kind of like they did with those first hives infested with tracheal mites and varroa mites* It looked as though the U.S. beekeeping industry was doomed until a drug was found effective by a researcher in Columbia, Missouri (sulfa). Although the drug was never registered for beekeeping use (U.S.)the drug was very effective ,sold by all bee supply houses and recommended by all bee inspectors and in bee books giving doses. Terramycin resistant AFb are showing up in the U.S. but I have not heard reports of terramycin resistant EFB. Any cases to report list? a new antibiotic is being registered for AFB use in the U.S. but not registered yet I believe. Peter wrote: > Whoa! > Terramycin does not kill EFB - it is a bacteriostat not a bacteriocide - > and will only stop EFB whilst the terramycin is active. If the bees do not clear the bacteria during this temporary break, then EFB will recur. I know you UK beekeepers have got strong opinions on EFB control. I hope we can *agree to disagree* (again) but I would not go to the trouble you UK beekeepers do concerning EFB. EFB is simply not a big deal with U.S. beekeepers or to myself. Everything Peter lists about EFB detection is correct. A excellent inexpensive bee disease detection book ( with color pictures)is put out by the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists ($3 to $5 U.S.) The book has only 16 pages and was published by the CAPA. Quote from page 4 of the book: "Although EFB effects brood of bees worldwide, EFb is not usually considered to be a serious disease of honey bees (except in the U.K. )*added by Bob* When I had time to do two lists I was on the Irish Beekeeping list. My friends on the list quickly tried to convert me to the UK way of dealing with EFB. We had many heated debates. As with many beekeeping issues the U.K. beekeepers treat EFB their way and we treat EFB our way in the U.S.. There are many ways to successfully keep bees and you need to choose the best method for you and your outfit. I choose antibiotics but only used when needed. I have NEVER treated with terramycin every spring and fall as many U.S. beekeepers do. Yellow larva from pollen so so rare in my area hardly worth talking about. Situation may be different in your area of the world. My mentor when I started keeping bees (he 90 plus and me thirteen) had a saying about EFB: "White is right" when looking at larva. A general rule which has never failed me. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:01:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > > . Why not today? Who looks at > the studies you researchers have run (many identical with different results) > and decides which is the correct concept or are researchers like weathermen > . . > Hello Bob and All, Research gives us knowledge. Armed with knowledge we try to find answers and solutions to our problems. I read everything I can get my hands on. Some is dry and some is over my head. The work that researchers do should be looked upon as a blessing for us. Think about NO work being done on varroa.We would know nothing about the mite except that they are killing our bees. It is easy to complain when you don't get things the way you would like them. It took me three years of study before I could understand most of Bee Genetics and Breeding by Tom Rinderer. Its not a coffee table book. If you think that anything in nature is simple , you don't have your eyes open. Science is like a flower coming into bloom, one petal at a time. Sometimes it looks out of balance , but is still filling out.So give all researchers a break. They are human and work with the same problems we all have, we don't know everything. They try to get one piece at a time. Most beekeepers have no idea how much work is being done that can help us. I know that Jerry's work can help bee breeders go up to the next step on evaluating queens.That is just one example and I hope they get connected soon. We are all in the same boat and its time for us to all paddle together. Best regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst noted: > Money runs the research establishment; big grants are > funded by national institutions in basic research. Here is a significant mandate from the US Congress that may help to refocus federal funding on practical ("applied") work. Here is what the US Senate said last week: ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/cp107/sr156.txt Committee Report - Senate Rpt. 107-156 S.2551 (scroll down to find the heading below) AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH SERVICE SALARIES AND EXPENSES "...The Committee is disturbed by proposals submitted in the President's budget request for fiscal year 2003 that would eliminate a number of critical agricultural research projects that have been established through congressional directives over the past 2 years. The only apparent rationale for these reductions by this and previous Administrations is an attitude that research priorities of the Congress have no merit on their face and seem not worthy of, at least, a thoughtful analysis by the Executive Branch in terms of budgetary and subject-matter priorities. In addition, the President is proposing to terminate a number of important Federal research locations, including locations at which honey bee research is conducted. The accidental introduction of varroa and tracheal mites in the United States during the mid-1980's has reduced the once-thriving populations of feral honey bees by more than 80 percent. These bees are necessary for the continued pollination of crops and wild plants. The Committee finds the proposed elimination of honey bee research at three Federal locations, in spite of serious reductions in bee populations and consequences related to pollination, which might adversely affect the world's food supply, extremely short-sighted and based on an unfortunate, and mistaken, assumption by the Executive Branch that all meaningful research must originate with it. The Committee directs the Secretary to take no action which would reduce research activities proposed for elimination in advance of congressional direction in that regard." When one combines the above with prior comments made by the US House, one is encouraged that the funding for the bee labs will be restored when the USDA FY 2003 budget is "marked up" by Congress sometime this summer or fall. I'm sure that the folks at the USDA ARS can read not only the handwriting on the wall, but also what is printed in the Congressional Record in black and white. It should be obvious to even the casual observer that restoration of funding for the US bee labs is being expected to result in work on practical "survival issues". I'm sure that the ARS will take the hint, and re-focus a bit. > ...in his opening statement said that research does not help > commercial beekeepers. This sounds like the usual statement of someone does not know the difference between the scientific process and alchemy. They expect that focusing all efforts directly on a "answer" or "solution" to a specific problem will magically result in a practical method or product of value by sheer force of will and effort. The view evinces a lack of understanding of how one solves any but the most simple problem. I really don't think that anyone who even bothers to read the abstracts of papers can dismiss "basic research" (as opposed to "applied research") as "no help to the beekeeper". Yes, everyone wants a solution to the mite problem, just like everyone wants cures for AIDS and cancer. But the "basic" research is the concrete foundation for the heavy artillery. No, it does not directly fire rounds at the target itself, but it is a prerequisite to firing at all. > Those trying to do applied research face extremely limited > budgets and little support from colleagues. We are doing what little we can. Profits from Bee-Quick, now that we have some, go straight into the EAS Honey Bee Research fund. This year, the amount we are giving is enough to equal the awards to this year's projects, so the fund does not "shrink". The EAS awards are not "big money", but it can be assumed to be focused on projects of value to beekeepers. I have no idea what projects were awarded funding, nor would I ever attempt to influence the committee that makes awards, but the committee is sure to want to fund "practical" work with a promise of a tangible outcome of value to beekeepers. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:22:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony Morgan wrote: > It is generally accepted that pine honeydew honey is not good for > overwintering, however a study in Slovenia showed that carniolans > tolerated it very well whereas italian bees overwintered poorly. Mine were carniolans. It also depends on the honeydew. There are different aphids that make honeydew and secrete different sugars, some of which granulate quickly and some do not and some may not be helpful but harmful. In addition, other trace minerals are in some and not others. Especially potassium which has been implicated in poor overwintering. So it is a bit complex and not just a bee race problem. So what may work in one area may not in another because of the aphid involved and the source of the honeydew. It would also depend on the ability of the bees to go on cleansing flights (which may explain the difference between Italians and Carniolans) and so is also dependent on the kind of winter in that area. For us, in Maine, it is a bad food for overwintering. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I know about this whole issue is how fuzzy knowledge really is. When I was in undergraduate study, the books I read were full of certainty, that this chemical reaction took place just as so. In graduate studies, I learned that they did not take place just as so and there were many other things happening or maybe not happening and the author was as in the dark about it as was I. Researchers do want to know, it is just that it is very hard to really know. Research is trying to get a little closer to the certainty, but with the knowledge that there is no way we can know or control everything, so let's try and make the approximation as close to reality as possible. When we ask more of the researcher, we are asking them to know the mind of God. Which is my complaint with those gifted amateurs who see results but have no idea why or if what they did was why they got to where they are- but hypothesize freely that what they did is why they succeed. They come out with no caveats and only assurance they they indeed have the grail. Dogmatic pied pipers of pseudo-science. If they exhibited a little less certainty, I would tend to believe more. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:17:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Yellow larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison writes: <> Except that we do treat for all but serious cases, with TM (which has to be officially administered by the bee inspector), and the problem has been that the disease recurs later in too many cases. Experiments are currently being conducted on a new technique, which involves shaking down, destruction of the brood, and treatment with TM. this appears to be more successful. Dare I suggest that the success of TM in the States is due to its regular use as a prophylactic, and that one-off curative use might not be so successful? The penalty for that is resistant AFB. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:00:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the Savannah ABF convention Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman head of the > Tucson Bee lab reported strong capensis traits being by the bee lab in the > feral bees of Arizona. Is this what she said? Or is it how you interpreted what she said? Did she actually refer to thelytoky and other Arizona feral bee characteristics as 'capensis traits', or merely mention that capensis has the thelytoky trait, and explain that thelytoky has been observed, to a much lesser extent, in other bees? There is a huge difference. > Could capensis genes explain some of Dees success? I believe it could. Well, it could -- if there were any evidence of capensis genes. BUT, there is not any evidence, or we would have heard by now. You can be very sure the ARS has looked, and looked hard. I don't think they know what they have. I think they are still trying to figure it out. If it were a simple answer like capensis, the word would be out, and there would be no mystery. Lusbys have provided the Tucson lab with bee samples for many years, and if I remember correctly, Lusbys told me that thelytoky is not a new characteristic in Lusby bees; thelytoky was observed by previous generations -- long before Kerr's bees got to Tucson. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:34:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Does research really want to know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy Nettlebeck, I want to THANK YOU for your comments about research! I have always failed to understand why the average beekeeper will heed the advice of some local farmer, mechanic, plumber, carpenter (ALL HONORABLE VOCATIONS) about beekeeping rather than listen to the advice of some dedicated researcher, who has perhaps studied hard in college for 7-8 years to gain a degree in Entomology and then be hired by a university or government BEE LABORATORY to full-time try to find the solutions to our beekeeping problems. Many beekeepers have said, "The bee scientists and bee researchers have NOT found the solution for XYZ..... or the control of varroa jacobsoni, so we have HAD to listen to our experienced fellow beekeepers." The scientists are so limited by "arms" of the government in that whatever solution they find must meet several widely divergent criteria, such as: 1) must kill the mite, 2) must NOT kill the bee or its brood, 3) must NOT be dangerous to humans, 4) must not be collective in the wax. Further, beekeepers DEMAND that this product be CHEAP in price. Since this year is my 70th consecutive year of beekeeping, I have seen many problems that are not even imagined today by new beekeepers. Where would we be today without the findings of Terramycin, Fumidil-B, para dichlorobenzene, Gard Star, CheckMite, Apistan, Bee-Go, Artificial swarm pheromones, plastic foundation, and many other findings, all found by scientists and researchers, but none found by those myriad number of local beekeepers who were not trained scientists. Scientists don't always HAVE to use chemicals. Dr. Diana Sammataro "discovered" the effective control of tracheal mites by plain grease patties, just plain sugar and Crisco. Our dedicated scientists and researchers are trying to find those things that positively WORK, regardless of whether the active material is a dangerous chemical like the organophosphate coumophos (CheckMite) or something simple like a vegetable oil (Crisco). Normally I keep silent regarding these difficult subjects which are not unlike discussing religion or taxes where one never finds a winner, but you said "so much" so well, I just had to reply. Again, THANK YOU! George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Author of George's Pink Pages @ www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:15:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, > Is this what she said? Or is it how you interpreted what she said? After her talk I asked the first question. I asked if she was talking about capensis or scuts with thelytoky. She said capensis. I thought she would say they (USDA BEE lab) were seeing AHb with a scut type thelytoky. She said what they were seeing in the feral colonies were capensis traits (Her words). I was shocked as I did not know any capensis (or capensis genes) were still around from the Dr. Kerr 1957 release. If you read my BEE-L posts after I returned from the convention the story is in the posts and backed up by two beekeepers which were in the room. Hamilton from Canada and Blane White. Both posted she said the word capensis to describe the feral bees of Arizona. Both said in posts which can be pulled up from late january/ early February that they understood from her the same points I understood and am posting now and posted back then. > Did she actually refer to thelytoky and other Arizona feral bee > characteristics as 'capensis traits', or merely mention that capensis has > the thelytoky trait, and explain that thelytoky has been observed, to a > much lesser extent, in other bees? There is a huge difference. Maybe Blane or Hamilton will come forward as they did back then and back me up as both are on our list but have not posted in awhile. > > > Could capensis genes explain some of Dees success? I believe it could. > > Well, it could -- if there were any evidence of capensis genes. Don't kill the messenger here . I am glad the statements she made were in public for all to hear. I am only passing on information which was given to all of us at the talk by the *head* of the Tucson bee lab. I believe the bee lab has ran some dna tests or Dr. Hoffman would not say with confidence she was looking at capensis genes (but only my opinion). I am sure Dr. Hoffman could be contacted through the lab and would comment further. I thought about contacting her but never did. I was told several times through the years by Dr. shiminuki that if capensis ever arrived in the U.S. commercial beekeeping would be in dires straits. Just the opposite may have happened. Dees bees if my hypothesis is correct have picked up the best of capensis and very little (if any) of the undisirable capensis traits. A capensis breeders dream. Barry Seargant of our list from South Africa told me once in a private email that trying to breed a desirable capensis was a waste of time. He gave up on the notion and instead is trying with success to breed a desirable scut. He did say capensis was black and not an aggressive bee. If it > were a simple answer like capensis, the word would be out, and there would be no mystery. Dr. Gloria DeGrandi -Hoffman did announce to the American Beekeeping convention in savannah, Georgia at 9:30 am on January 17th that capensis genes are in the feral colonies the USDA bee lab Tucson, Arizona has been looking at. Dr. DeGrandi-Hoffman is the researcher in charge. Would the story be more believable if president George Bush made the announcement at the white house? . I believe Dr. DeGrandi Hoffman will talk willingly about her AND HER STAFFS conclusions if asked. Why wouldn't they? de supplied the Tucson lab with bee samples for many years, I know she did once and she said her bees were not africanized. Dee also said all bees in the U.S. carried africanized genes in a couple of her posts. Dr. DeGrandi Hoffman SAID all bees of Arizona should be considered Africanized in her talk. With all due respect how can Dee and Ed Lusby run around 800 hives in the Tucson area and say their bees are not africanized? I believe Ed and Dee are part of a dying breed of American beekeeper which has spent many many years of hard ,hot and sweaty work in the art of beekeeping. I put myself in the same group (along with my friend Allen Dick) I respect the Lusby's accomplishments like I have said before on Bee-L. I respect the Lusbys for allowing the people on Bee-L to discuss the pros and cons of their findings. I do believe my hypothesis about the capensis genes is valid. This whole post is to simply get at the truth whatever the truth might be. and if > I remember correctly, Lusbys told me that thelytoky is not a new > characteristic in Lusby bees; thelytoky was observed by previous > generations -- long before Kerr's bees got to Tucson. I am a realist. I watch CSI ( crime scene investigation)everyweek if I can. *Follow the evidence* I believe my hypothesis is believeable especially after the announcement from the bee lab (about 30 minutes from Dee Lusbys ) finding of capensis genes in the bees of Arizona and that all bees in Arizona should be considered africanized. I do not know if Dr. Hoffman included all commercial hives in her statement. She may have only been talking about the feral colonies.. My hypothesis is not as glamorous sounding a hypothesis as this old race of mystical bees exist which posses thelytoky triaits and are imune to all the problems of todays beekeeping. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:45:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yellow larvae Robert/Bob I think that this sums up the situation nicely - thank you Robert! I would add that the indiscriminate use of Terramycin also masks the symptoms of AFB, allowing it to be spread via spores in the scales in combs. (Bob, presumably you did not mean 'difference in spores' - EFB does not form spores). It worries me when I see so many postings on the newsgroups that go something like 'Hi, I'm a newbee (ugh!!!) - how do I medicate my bees?' In the UK, we are working hard to stay off the drugs treadmill that you folks seem happy with. AFB is not a problem, but EFB levels are rising significantly and this is where novel research is being concentrated. The first innovation (for us - I think that you invented the technique) was to use the shook swarm technique; the colony is shaken on to new foundation in a clean hive and the old comb burnt. One dose of Terramycin is given - but probably only because our legislation requires it; my understanding is that the next move will be trials without the Terramycin. Whilst this has given excellent results on a colony basis, EFB frequently recurs within the apiary, so current thinking is to remove the colony immediately after treatment to a 'hospital apiary'. There is further, in my view more interesting, research into the use of Paenibacillus larvae ssp pulvifaciens (PLP) to kill EFB. PLP is related to the causative agent of AFB, but does not cause disease. This should work because Paenibacillus larvae kills all other bacteria. As you said, we will have to agree to differ on this one, but I am very happy with our approach which I believe will lead to control of this disease without antibiotics. Peter Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Brenchley" > Except that we do treat for all but serious cases, with TM (which has to > be officially administered by the bee inspector), and the problem has been > that the disease recurs later in too many cases. Experiments are currently > being conducted on a new technique, which involves shaking down, destruction > of the brood, and treatment with TM. this appears to be more successful. Dare > I suggest that the success of TM in the States is due to its regular use as a > prophylactic, and that one-off curative use might not be so successful? The > penalty for that is resistant AFB. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:40:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Russian bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.msstate.edu/Entomology/beenews/beenews0402.html Excerpts: The Russians are here to stay it seems. After two years of in-field research they have proven themselves. Two test yards were established and evaluated without mite treatments for two years. The Russian colonies were compared with native stock. All of the domestic control colonies died in the second year due to high varroa mite populations. Only one Russian colony died due to varroa mites and all the others had levels of mites below damaging levels. Honey production was acceptable in the Russians when compared to the domestics. From this study three lines were chosen for release to the industry's queen breeders. In 2000 different breeder lines were evaluated similarly. On the average mite loads in domestics were more than five times that in the Russians. In Mississippi the Russians averaged 125 pounds per colony (40 lbs. above the state average that year). Russian colonies in Mississippi have the longest history of being untreated. In 1999 the colonies were treated with Apistan® and inoculated with varroa mites in 2000. Since then mite levels have remained low without any treatments. Dr. Rinderer and his staff made it clear that the performance of hybrids cannot be easily predicted. In this case, hybrids come from pure Russian queens, which have been out-crossed or mated with non-Russian drones. In conclusion, Russians are resistant to varroa and tracheal mites with the likely possibility that treatments will not be necessary at all. Currently, with hybrid Russians one treatment a year is recommended. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:50:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Yellow larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would add that the indiscriminate use of Terramycin also masks the > symptoms of AFB, allowing it to be spread via spores in the scales in combs. I'm not sure what 'indiscriminate' means here, but I think it has been proven in practice and is currently being proven in research that judicious use of OTC prevents outbreaks of AFB (with all the associated massive sporulation and contamination of comb), and that, over time, in the absence of outbreaks, natural background spore levels in hives drop to the point where subsequent breakdowns become increasingly unlikely. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, First I want to say Bob should be saying capensis or capensis-like traits not genes ( fine distinction but the researchers were looking at traits - behaviors - of the bees in AZ). The traits reported were small dark bees that invade other honey bee colonies and disrupt the colony by becoming pseudo-queens and the colonies becoming african or dwindling. Yes it really sounded like the reports of the capensis problem reported from South Africa and very different from the behaviors reported in the Rio Grande valley in TX with the africanized honey bees there. Dr Hoffman showed pictures of the black pseudo-queens and of colonies being invaded and taken over. Her statements were that it was very difficult to keep european queened colonies in that area due to this invasive pseudo-queen behavior and a significant portion of colonies in a pollination placement setting ended up converting to african honey bees even in a relatively short period in the africanized area. Yes the talk quickly brought to mind the whole capensis mess in South Africa. Now I do have a question about this matter. Is the observed set of behaviors both in South Africa and in Arizona USA due to cape honey bee traits or is it something that goes along with the thelytoky trait? If you select any given population of honey bees for thelytoky do you end up with this nest invasion and take over charactistic as well? If that is the case you don't need capensis genes being introduced to end up with capensis-like behavior. Looks like we need more not less basic research into honey bee biology to start to understand this issue. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:21:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > She said what they were seeing in the feral colonies were capensis > traits (Her words)... > I was shocked as I did not know any capensis (or capensis genes) were > still around from the Dr. Kerr 1957 release. I still; have not seen any direct quote from Gloria that says they have done a DNA test and found capensis genes. That is something I would expect, if it were more than a misinterpretation by some listeners. This is Big News and I would have expected to see it in the bee press by now -- if it were true. There are many kinds of associations between ideas and between objects. Although to many, the difference is not obvious, there is a vast difference between a close comparison -- which is what you and others reported her to have made -- and an identity, which AFAIK, she has carefully avoided implying. I also heard her speak at about the same time, but at the other end of the country, and she seemed careful to make that distinction, and avoided suggesting an identity. I would like to see if those who are 'quoting' her can get her to say in writing that they have demonstrated capensis DNA to be in Arizona stock. I'm betting you cannot. It seems to me that if she said what you think she said to you in public, she would be glad to repeat it. It seems to me that if you are going to repeat this interpretation, and hinge provocative arguments on it, you need to prove she said what you think she said. That should be easy. All you need to do is write here and get permission to quote her on that. If you can get her to corroborate your report, I will be grateful for the entirely new perspective on the matter. I expect you to post a direct quote from her here soon, or give it up. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:00:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > First I want to say Bob should be saying capensis or capensis-like > traits not genes Thanks for making that distinction, Blane. > The traits reported were small > dark bees that invade other honey bee colonies and disrupt the colony by > becoming pseudo-queens and the colonies becoming african or dwindling. I remember the discussion of invasion by queens and by groups of bees etc., but don't recall the reference to any resultant dwindling. This -- AFAIK -- is the difference between the capensis situation in Africa, and what is being observed in Arizona. The problem in Arizona, again according to my limited understanding, is that it is hard, if not impossible to maintain a desired stock -- other than the feral stock -- in managed hives without constant vigilance. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, > > I was shocked as I did not know any capensis (or capensis genes) were still around from the Dr. Kerr 1957 release. Above is what I wrote Allen. Let us not nit pick. When Dr. Hoffman said capensis she did not stutter. If those black workers have got large numbers of ovarioles THEN somewhere in the dna in my opinion is at least a couple genes of capensis as CAPENSIS is the only race of bee known to posses those qualities. quote from page 39 of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" (1992 edition) " THIS BEE (APIS MELLIFERA CAPENSIS) IS *DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT* FROM *ALL* OTHER GEOGRAPHIC RACES OF HONEY BEES *BECAUSE* OF THE LARGE NUMBERS OF OVARIOLES IN THE OVARIES OF WORKER BEES AND WELL DEVELOPED SPERMATHECA" If the difference is *distinctly different* then why the diagnosis problem. I called a high school biology teacher and she said if she had a normal bee for a sample a high school student could tell the difference in normal and large numbers of ovarioles with the electron microscope. Maybe Dr. Hoffman based her capensis findings on similar observations. . Dee raises and open mates her own queens in an area full of feral AHB swarms. In my opinion it is your point of view which needs reinforcement in this discussion. I raise valid points regardless of what Dr. Hoffman said. Capensis and scuts cross. Africanized bees are in the area of Dees hives and any of those swarms could easily possess capensis genes. BROUGHT OUT THROUGH DEES BREEDING SELECTION. I was told by Barry Seargeant of South Africa (on Bee_L and has written many papers on SA bees ) that capensis in its form in SA is easily told apart from scuts. Maybe we need to send some samples from Arizona for ID. Yes Allen I am saying that if those bees in Arizona are looking capensis, acting capensis , black in color (scuts are yellow *normally*) and posses ovarioles in larger number than a scut there has got to be a couple capensis genes tucked away in those bees in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:23:43 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Black Forest Honey In-Reply-To: <200206131258.g5DCMJT8011937@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Black Forrest honey, green honey, pine honey and honeydew honey are all the > same honey. This is overly simplistic - like saying all flower honey is the same. Honeydew honeys come from a vast array of plant/insect combinations. Aphids and more commonly scale insects are the source. Here in NZ we have several species of scale insects that inhabit several species of plants. Each combination has the potential to produce a different product. One produces a significant crop of honeydew (our largest singe exported honey type). Check it our at : www.airborne.co.nz and look under NZ Honey => Honeydew. Manuka is also often a source of honeydew with many of the plants covered in sooty moulds. > The bees gather the excrement We prefer the term "exudation" :-) Makes it easier to sell!! > I do recommend everyone try to get a taste of honeydew. I was always > told it looks and tastes like 40 weight motor oil..... it doesn't. It certainly doesn't. In fact the many varieties of honeydew I have tasted from around the World have a great diversity of flavour. Some of our honeydews have very high H202 activity. Honeydew is also often differentiated in the lab by its higher conductivity (around 5-10 times higher than flower honeys) due to the higher mineral content. Black Forest honey has a reputation for being a very healthy honey. Cheers, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200206140434.g5E4OWSC007028@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since Dee frequently admits all their hives are open mated queens (virgins are dropped into hives in the field), there does not seem to be any possible way for their bees not to have a large majority of AHB genes. Like AHB, her's resist varroa, are small, black bees that draw smaller comb. Like capensis (and unlike scuts), her bees have a high instance of thelytoky, which she selects for (thereby increasing the capensis like traits in her bees). Her bees also have a "unique" wing vein morphometry, different from so-called "US bees" in that there is an extra vein (haven't seen this in person, but read numerous posts of hers on this subject). As to african genes, they have been in the US (just not so called AHB genes) for many years, originally brought into the Louisiana labs. Of course, there are several in her area that collect swarms (collecting quite a bit in AHB removal money) and relocate the bees into hives out in the desert, so her's would not be the only AHB in captivity in the state. As to your hypothesis, considering all the surrounding evidence, it makes a much less complex scenario that some mystical bee that has survived in the wilds of Arizona the last several hundred years (longer in Dee's accounts, as she thinks it is a "native" bee, dating from prior to the European arrival in the New World). When you have two different hypothesis and the facts favor both, the less complex hypothesis is always the one to be preferred (wasn't that in science 101?) K. Oland -----Original Message----- From: Bob Harrison Dr. DeGrandi Hoffman SAID all bees of Arizona should be considered Africanized in her talk. With all due respect how can Dee and Ed Lusby run around 800 hives in the Tucson area and say their bees are not africanized? ... My hypothesis is not as glamorous sounding a hypothesis as this old race of mystical bees exist which posses thelytoky triaits and are imune to all the problems of todays beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:28:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In my opinion it is your point of view which needs reinforcement in this > discussion. I'm not the one speculating on limited knowledge, and promoting the idea as if it were supported by a prominent researcher who quite carefully avoided saying what you are saying. > ... valid points regardless of what Dr. Hoffman said. Capensis and > scuts cross. Africanized bees are in the area of Dees hives and any of those > swarms could easily possess capensis genes. Hmmm. Easily? And with all the firepower of the USDA aware of and looking at this for a decade now or more, they have not been able to come out and say that when they did a DNA test, this is what they found? > Maybe we need to send some samples from Arizona for ID. This has been done several times. The results -- AFAIK -- do not prove capensis. Au contraire. > Yes Allen I am saying that if those bees in Arizona are looking capensis, > acting capensis , black in color (scuts are yellow *normally*) and posses > ovarioles in larger number than a scut there has got to be a couple > capensis genes tucked away in those bees in my opinion. We know it is your opinion, and it is an interesting speculation, but can you prove it? allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:26:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yellow larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/06/02 05:01:46 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << larvae with a very faint yellow hue to them >> Sounds like EFB but this can only be confirmed by a laboratory. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:37:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pesticide kill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/06/02 05:01:46 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I don't have a strong hive to put it on, due to a major pesticide kill three weeks ago which left my bees badly weakened. >> Robert, That is a rarity nowadays in the UK. What have you done about it? Chris