From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:43:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,DEAR_SOMETHING,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E7B49085 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXh010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0206C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 184272 Lines: 4235 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wrote: We know it is your opinion, and it is an interesting speculation, but can > you prove it? If I do to your satisfaction will you post on your web site? I accept the challenge to prove my hypothesis. I believe paperwork already exists from the USDA to prove my hypothesis if I can manage to get a look at the information. Like Allen said the USDA has been doing dna and other types of testing in Arizona for a long time. Dr. Hoffman did not come to the ABF convention (as Blane correctly pointed out) to talk about capensis only. The title of the talk was "pollination Research at Tucson". Capensis is kept for honey production in South Africa even by Barry Seargant . The biggest threat to the commercial beekeeper from capensis is in the area of migratory beekeeping and the taking over of hives and spreading capensis all over the U.S. which is the main point for Dr. Hoffman showing slides of the *alleged* capensis . I believe point Dr. Hoffman was making was valid. Dr. Shiminuki (retired head Beltsville bee lab)has been to South Africa to study capensis and he warned us years ago about the same points Dr. Hoffman was saying with one BIG difference. DR HOFFMAN (AND THE STAFF )IS SEEING WHAT DR. SHIMINUKI WAS ONLY WARNING ABOUT *COULD HAPPEN* IF THE CAPE BEE WAS EVER TO ENTER THE U.S. I need a little help with back up here from those beekeepers on the list which have attended many of the Dr. Shiminuki talks like I have. Have you not heard the above from Shim many times? Although Dr. Shiminuki and I had our differences I still consider Shim one of the most knowledgeable researchers I ever met. Dr. Shiminuki used to always say "there are still threats to beekeeping WORSE than varroa". 1. Tropilaelaps clareae 2. the cape bee (capensis) Sincerely, Bob Harrison I believe we have got a tape recording of the entire Dr. Hoffman talk. To be honest my partner and I have not even listened to the tape but plan to do so once we get caught up on bee work. Thanks to James Fischer for his kind words about Dr. Hoffman and myself. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200206150413.g5F4C5Ru009381@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEe-L Bob Harrison wrote: The biggest threat to the commercial beekeeper from capensis is in the area of migratory beekeeping and the taking over of hives and spreading capensis all over the U.S. which is the main point for Dr. Hoffman showing slides of the *alleged* capensis . I believe point Dr. Hoffman was making was valid. Reply: Following the AHPA meeting, and the ABF meeting in Ga, and Mr Bob Harrison's comments on BEE-L this past spring, Dr Gloria Hoffman gave the same presentation to the Southern Arizona Beekeepers Association, during which the slides she showed were of OUR bees on research done ten years previously, and previously presented at the AHPA meeting in Tucson Arizona in 1990. ONe such picture can be seen in Bee Science where scientific paper on our bees was published and the meeting in 1990 I have on video tape. NOw our bees were tested back then against Capenis by samples forwarded by Dr Anderson to the USDA for comparison to rule this fact out clearlify that our bees were indeed different and a caucasian type strain. At the meeting duplicating the speech in Ga Dr HOffman said she was only talking about capenis similar traits and what she was seeing here locally, which by the way we ahve seen in our family for more then three generations and why the Tucson Bee lab wanted to work with our bees in the first place in the 1980s and 1990s (also under contract). Very interesting following this discussion so far. Should you find anything different then what I already know Mr Bob Harrison in concrete and proved, I will be very much interested to see! Please keep me posted as to what you find out for actual fact. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:15:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I will add my voice to this "discussion", if only to point out > that this is a clear and compelling example of how new "ideas" > can be poorly treated on Bee-L. These 'new' ideas are being treated very levelly on BEE-L, but they are not being given a free ride and instant acceptance. As recently discussed, we have to maintain credibilty with researchers too, and paraphrasing their comments and then attributing these words to them is not a good way to do that. New ideas should be considered, questioned and analysed. That is what we are doing on BEE-L. We are listening and comparing what Bob is saying to what several of us -- Aaron was sitting beside me -- heard in the same amazing talk given by the same person in a different place several days earlier. Maybe you came in late to this thread -- it started a long time back -- but Bob said that the comment on which he is hinging his claim was made *after* the prepared talk, not in the prepared talk. Another person there at the same time differs with him on a crucial detail. However, this topic is not at all new here, it has been covered before. For the record: no one disputes the fact that unusual levels of thelytoky have been demonstrated in some Arizona bees, nor the fact that thelytoky is a known major characteristic of capensis. What is disputed is how long the tendancy to unusual levels (for EHB) of thelytoky has been observed in Arizona bees -- and what explains it. I have personally been to Lusbys and to the ARS lab in Tucson and discussed this matter with several people at both places. The question of DNA proof has been brought up and AFAIK, one of the puzzling aspects is that so far -- AFAIK -- *no* DNA evidence has supported the idea that the Arizona bees are capensis or part capensis. > Bob is a man of good character, and is not subject to hallucinations. Bob is a friend of mine AFAIK. I am not denegrating his character. I don't know anything whatsoever about his hallucinations or lack of them. I'll have to take your word on that unless Bob thinks this rather personal matter is a relevant point and wants to jump in here. > Further, what he heard has been verified by others. What he says he heard has been disputed on one crucial point. I believe that in the talk I heard, G D-H did not deny a comparison to capensis, but never suggested that these bees are actually -- partially or completely -- capensis. Capensis genes were never mentioned. > Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman is also a person of good character That is not in dispute. < and has no history of mental illness. I have no knowledge either way in this regard, nor do I consider it relevant. > Further, she most likely made her presentation from prepared notes. As I said, the supposed quote, was after her prepared talk and was interpreted differently by BEE-L people present. > Connect the dots. I don't know what you see, but I see reasonable speculation that has not been able to be proven and has to be treated as an interesting unproven (and politically sensitive) hypothesis. For what it is worth, I personally think that the idea is quite reasonable and is as good as -- and possibly better than -- many others, including the native American bee idea. In fact, it is -- IMO -- one of the better ideas. The only problem is that G D-H did not say that capensis genes have been found in the Arizona bees, and as far as I can tell carefully avoided saying so. Maybe they are, and she cannot or will not say so? She has definitely said that the traits are capensis-like, although in my recollection, she deliberately did not dwell on that point. Dragging her name into this without having a direct quote seems to me to be unfair to her. In light of our recent discussion of BEE-L and its relationship to and treatment of researchers, I am trying to be sensitive to their position. We had an episode some time back in which Dr. Erickson's name came up in some questionable statements and I want to be sure any attributions of statements and actions to researchers are accurate and corroborated if there is any doubt. That is the entire issue here. The capensis idea itself is not unwelcome or even preposterous. It is possible that these characteristics could exist or arise independently from capensis, but the connection suggested a common origin. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... There are other possibilities too. The recent apparent evolution of fire ants gives us another phenomenon for comparison. There are many possibilities, and discussing them is fun. BUT when someone attributes something controversial to a scientist, he is going to have to prove that she said it the way he heard it. Bring on the ideas. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:06:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200206150412.g5F3tnUM008689@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > > If I do to your satisfaction will you post on your web site? I am puzzled by this question Bob. Do you doubt that he would? I see the role of sceptic (a role that Allen fills well) as being a valuable, even necessary one if we are to advance our knowledge. There are more wrong ideas than right ones in the world. All of science happens by observing and testing, thinking up ideas that fit what we have observed. and then rejecting the large majority of our ideas because the testing does not bear them out. When somebody says "Maybe small cells help to control varroa" that's a good thing. When somebody else asks for the evidence, that too is a good thing. These two hypothetical people need not be adversaries just because one questions the other. I *like* to have my ideas challenged. If they do not stand up to scrutiny then I want to know that. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:31:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: False alarm Speaking of observable traits and making assumptions, something educational happened to me yesterday in the form of a call from the Ag Commissioner's office. A few weeks ago in one of my gentle apiaries I opened a hive and was attacked in a way which hadn't happened to me since South Africa. My records weren't what they should of been, but I think it was from a small swarm into an empty hive early in the year. The hive was so wild, and the surrounding hives so gentle that I knew it was the bees themselves and not environmental. I managed to find the queen (there was brood in 3 supers) and squish her. She was yellow. I then came back in 10 days and was attacked upon getting out of my truck. I destroyed all the queen cells and introduced a gentle queen that I had from a hive I keep by my house. I used a plastic cage with two small marshmallows and pushed the cage a third into some capped comb so the honey was dripping around her, and I smoked the hive heavily. Three days later, I was again attacked upon leaving my truck, and when I opened the hive there was no difference in behavior even though the queen was accepted and laying. I moved the hive to protect farm workers and 3 days later there was brood but no change in behavior. I moved the hive in the day, so some been were adopted by surrounding hives and yesterday I was attacked by a few bees from hives that were gentle. It then dawned on me that: small swarm in the off season, yellow queen, very aggressive, no change in behavior with new queen, AHB in the adjoining county...Well, I was about 99% positive San Luis Obispo was going to report it's first AHB, so I took some bees down to the Ag Commissioner's office. The next week they called and said DNA sampling showed them to be European. The day before they called to warn me not to tell people they were AHB so as not to cause panic. So with my little lesson comes a question. If I were to get a copy of the report, would it be in a form that someone without an advanced degree or training could understand? The lady said both DNA and physical measuring tests were done. Could I even ask for a copy? Thanks Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:37:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Copper Naphthanate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying out the copper naphthate as a preservative for the first time. I have looked at the archives and find them a tad confusing at least on my end. What I found was a brown solution. After "painting" the wood is brown not green or blue. In addition do I paint the hive inside and out or just one side. I find this stuff has an odor--do I "air" out the wood until it stops smelling or is it safe as is for the bees. Off list contact by users is encouraged as well. HELP as I need some answers soon as I am about to add several pieces of wooden ware to my bees. Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chuck Wettergreen Subject: ABC Evening News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The first story on the Saturday (6-15-02) ABC evening news concerned the "pork" hidden in the bill before congress to establish the Homeland Security Department. The reporter went through a laundry list of multi-million dollar appropriations for things unrelated to homeland security, and ended up with, "and that perennial favorite, the honeybee subsidy". I'm not aware of any "subsidy" to honey or honeybees in the US. Are they talking about the bee labs funding? Anyway, I fired off an e-mail to ABC News questioning their reporting, and maybe you all should too. Cheers, Chuck Wettergreen beekeeper/meadmaker/Geneva, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:12:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Research Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, jbarthell@ucok.edu, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu In-Reply-To: <200206131118.g5DB08Si010467@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings, As with Mike Moser, I have followed the discussion about bee research with great interest. Several people provided insightful comments, but (to me) Mike's comments were highest on that list. At the outset, I agree with most of Mike's input and will not address all of the points upon which we agree. >Mike wrote: First, anyone can do valid and important research even >though they are not affiliated with any educational or government >institution. For that I often use the analogy that a good scientist (with a PhD or not) is like a good auto mechanic. Upon learning all the symptoms, a good mechanic considers ALL possibilities in seeking a remedy, not just the first that comes to mind. >Mike wrote: Some of the greatest inventions known have come from >everyday people who asked the question "why?". Yes, all research starts with the "why" question, but the good scientist soon changes emphasis, rephrases, and probes the more meaningful question "how?" "Why" questions are teleological and can readily lead one to premature (and often all too readily acceptable --- though not exclusive) conclusions. >Mike wrote: For research to be valid and meaningful, one must >adhere to scientific guidelines that are recognized the world over. >These guidelines are a series of steps or conditions that must be >met, and are often referred to as the Scientific Method. The basic >steps of the scientific method can be found in most any high school >or college science textbook. More recent thinking favors use of the term "Scientific Process." In 1993 I gave a lecture in New Jersey to a group of college honors students in biology. The facilitator liked the presentation so much that he asked me to write a short note for publication in their national journal (BIOS). Those interested can find that essay as item #22 on the following web site: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm >Mike wrote: Don't try to make the results meet your hypothesis. >This is a good example of "poor science". Mike is 100% correct on that point, in my experience. Those who attempt to "prove" their hypothesis "true" will surely conclude that they have succeeded! The history of science is littered with examples of that poor approach. Unfortunately, an exotic explanation meets with quicker approval than a more mundane explanation. >Mike wrote: Most of what we deal with is hypothesis, not theory. We agree on that point. However, hypotheses never become fact. Instead, in good science, hypotheses become replaced with other hypotheses as new facts emerge. Sometimes a reasonable hypothesis becomes replaced with a more exotic (though not necessarily a more scientific) hypothesis that later becomes overturned. The JOURNAL OF INSECT BEHAVIOR recently accepted for publication a manuscript of mine that describes just such an example. >Mike wrote: A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven over and >over again. Here Mike and I disagree. I have found that the notion of "proof" remains elusive in scientific studies. Too often, the social climate of the times may encourage acceptance of inadequate evidence for a hypothesis; then people may readily accept a hypothesis (especially if exotic) as "proven." >Mike wrote: A law is a theory that has been shown to be absolutely >true every time. Here Mike and I agree. However, in studies of insect behavior, we have VERY few "laws." One such "law" that I have been promoting for decades now is the "Law of Odor-Search Behavior." That is, no animal can find the source of odor unless it starts out downwind from that source. Perceptive beekeepers have likely observed that as they at the behavior of bees in flight. All searching bees come in from downwind, flying in a zigzag fashion as they work their way upwind toward the odor. Even sharks exhibit that behavior, as I once observed to my dismay while conducting marine research in the Marshall Islands. Yes, anyone can do valid scientific research. Sometimes those trained in the scientific community fail to appreciate that fact and will come up with quite unacceptable explanations for their own results. Their explanations may mesh well with what other scientists and the public want to hear, but they may have little to do with the real world or with what beekeepers observe in their daily activities. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:30:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Pesticide kill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<<< I don't have a strong hive to put it on, due to a major pesticide kill three weeks ago which left my bees badly weakened. >> Robert, That is a rarity nowadays in the UK. What have you done about it? Chris>> Nothing really; the deaths stopped after a downpour, and I haven't had any more problems. I've been pretty puzzled by this myself, it's an urban situation, with no wide-area spraying going on. I do have a sneaking suspicion that it could have been sabotage, as I've been having major problems with another plotholder on the site. It only seemed to be affecting one colony which was odd, if it was a normal kill, but noting seems to fit apart from pesticide; it certainly wasn't robbing. Hopefully I've now stopped that by building a fence which will make it extremely difficult for them to get in, and putting up a notice threatening to expose them publicly if it goes on. They've hardly been seen since that went up so it appears to have scared them. I just hope there are no repetitions. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:38:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> There could be a parallel with the situation found in the UK, with some Amm strains surviving with little admixture of genes from surrounding hybrid populations. If there was an older population in which the queens and drones flew at different times to the local 'Italian' population, or remained distinct by some other mechanism, then that would explain the situation. It may well be the case that more needs to be learnt about honeybee mating behaviour. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:52:28 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Copper Naphthanate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Morris wrote: > I am trying out the copper naphthate as a preservative for the first time. > In addition do I paint the hive inside and out or just one > side. I find this stuff has an odor--do I "air" out the wood until it stops > smelling or is it safe as is for the bees. I have used CN for several years. I first used it on honey supers. Mixed 6 parts low odor mineral spirits to 1 part CN. I used it as a dip. Took forever for the "smell" to fade. So, I don't use it for supers anymore. I do use it for outer covers and bottom boards though. I mix it 3 to 1 for this use. I like to let the woodenware sit outdoors in the weather for a month or two. Bottoms still have a slight odor, but it doesn't seem to effect the bees any. If I was going to use it on supers, I would paint the outsides and top and bottom edges, but not the inside. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Pesticide kill This happens to me frequently, that one or two hives out of several right next to each other will experience pesticide die-off and the others are not affected. I opened two pollen traps this week right next to each other and the color mixtures were radically different. One had lots of purple pollen which I assume comes from a large stand of thistle which I've seen bees working, and it was really pretty. It just shows you how different hives, especially when there is a large choice of nectar, can visit different areas. Perhaps someone didn't like your bees on her escallonias or his poppies and sprayed. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: ABC Evening News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Wettergreen said: > The first story on the Saturday (6-15-02) ABC evening news > concerned the "pork" hidden in the bill before congress to > establish the Homeland Security Department. The reporter went > through a laundry list of multi-million dollar appropriations for > things unrelated to homeland security, and ended up with, "and > that perennial favorite, the honeybee subsidy". > I'm not aware of any "subsidy" to honey or honeybees in the US. > Are they talking about the bee labs funding? Has anyone purchased the "Real Player OnePass" required to view the ABC news boradcast on the web? http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/WNT/# If so: a) Which bill? Number? Names? b) Which house of Congress? The House? The Senate? c) Which reporter said this? I'm not even sure which bill ABC was talking about, and we have been watching pending legislation with care all year. I cannot make sense of the statement as made, since: 1) The bill that "established" the "Department Of Homeland Security" (an unfortunate use of the term "Homeland" that ressurects visions of brown-shirted, goosestepping types) was HR3639, back in January 2002. You can read the entire text of the bill here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107etFj52 It makes no mention of bees. It was passed, so it is no longer "before Congress". 2) The 2002 Farm Bill (HR2646) did restore non-recourse loans for a number of crops, including honey: "SEC. 1202. LOAN RATES FOR NONRECOURSE MARKETING ASSISTANCE LOANS. (a) 2002 AND 2003 CROP YEARS.-For purposes of the 2002 and 2003 crop years, the loan rate for a marketing assistance loan under section 1201 for a loan commodity shall be equal to the following... ....(14) In the case of honey, $0.60 per pound." The full text is here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107o73wbA But it was signed by the President, so it is also no longer "before Congress". 3) HR4775 "2002 Supplemental Appropriations Act for Further Recovery From and Response To Terrorist Attacks on the United States" is related to a Senate Comittee report that mentions the bee labs directly, as I posted to Bee-L on Jun 13th here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0206b&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=9006 ...but there was no allocation of funds for the bee labs in the bill, and the Senate report was merely "an expression of concern". This bill is still "in conference", having been worked upon by both the House and Senate, so it CAN be thought of as still being "before Congress". One can look at what the House is doing (day by day) here: http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.php3 One can look at what the Senate is doing here: http://democrats.senate.gov/calendar/ If anyone can find any mention "bees" in ANY pending legislation, I'd sure like to hear about it. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:35:52 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: False alarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan said, about a suspected AHB colony: > The next week they called and said DNA sampling showed them to be > European. The day before they called to warn me not to tell people they > were AHB so as not to cause panic. > So with my little lesson comes a question. If I were to get a copy of the > report, would it be in a form that someone without an advanced degree or > training could understand? The lady said both DNA and physical measuring > tests were done. Could I even ask for a copy? One can certainly ask, but the "report" may be nothing more than a one liner by the person who did the DNA and morphometric work saying "no match to AHB". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:19:55 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Copper Naphthanate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim I've been told years ago that bees tolerate zinc naphthanate better than copper. I've used zinc with good results but I used it only on the outer surfaces and gave a good airing before painting and giving to the bees. I've also seen copper napthanate used on floors both inside and out with a good airing with good results. Al ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:02:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: ABC Evening News In-Reply-To: <200206160149.g5G1mwRw006989@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Before you do send a letter, might I suggest that you look up the bill and see whether it's an extension of the loan program, funding the research labs, or just what. Many of us did write asking that the research programs be continued pointing out the percentage hive losses to parasites and pesticides. If your letter gets it wrong, it's a matter of the pot calling the kettle black. On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Chuck Wettergreen wrote: > The first story on the Saturday (6-15-02) ABC evening news > concerned the "pork" hidden in the bill before congress to > establish the Homeland Security Department. The reporter went > through a laundry list ... and ended up with, "and > that perennial favorite, the honeybee subsidy". ... > Anyway, I fired off an e-mail to ABC News questioning their > reporting, and maybe you all should too. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:33:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200206161513.g5GFB1S6017587@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to All on BEE-L Karen Oland wrote: When you have two different hypothesis and the facts favor both, the less complex hypothesis is always the one to be preferred (wasn't that in science 101?) Reply: This is always a good way to start for beginners teaching the basics the first year, like when learning to walk, But then you want to run and jump, and more complexities of life have to be learned. Then comes science 202. . . and the learning curve start all over! Regards, Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:01:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: FGMO website Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I show below the website where you can obtain details of the FGMO system devised by Dr Pedro Rodriguez. http://www.beesource.com/ Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:33:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Since Erik Osterlund is not a member of this list, he asked that I post this for him. mark ----------------------- I have been alerted that the following text has been posted on BEE-L: >Erik Osterlund written numerous articles about his Elgon bees >survivalability with mites in Israel and Denmark. The only trouble is >that numerous swedish beekepers cant confirm that...either. Just a few comments from me on the subject of survivability of Elgon bees in connection with varroa mites. I have written two articles where initial trials were described in Israel and Denmark, in ABJ May -99 and in ABJ article which can be read here: http://beesource.com/pov/osterlund/abjmar2001.htm What's happened in Israel up til now I don't know much about. But breeding is going on there. In Denmark on the island Bornholm in the Baltic mr Karlsen still haven't used any miticides, besides a small trial in two years together with a chemical company trying to find out pheromone type chemicals to trigger the bees to get rid of mites. The product is made of harmless food type of plants. Today these trial is in a dormant phase waiting for greater interst from industry as far as I understand, though the trials were promising. (If someone of you are interested I maybe can ask for contact. It's a reliable big company). Concerning the standard of the bees of Mr Karlsen apart from that, is as the last years, in a kind of routine phase with what you would call normal beekeeping, without miticides of any kind. He breeds from the most healthy bee colonies and in first place shift queens in colonies he spot is not coping with whatever, for example the mites. He says that this mainly happens when the queens are getting old in such colonies, which though isn't the main part of his colonies behaving so. Today Mr Karlsen is going down from 5.3 mm cell size to 5.0 mm using a mold of his own for making foundation. Last autumn there appeared an article in the Danish bee journal by two visitors to Mr Karlsen. they had visited him in August -01 and Karlsen had waited to shift queens in the needy colonies till they hade been with him. they looked in about 10 colonies in three apiaries with in total 60 colonies. They saw quite a number of mites in some of these colonies, where the bees also were uncapping worker puppea just getting color, in which cells you found mites. There were also some "wingless" bees. The two visitors predicted that one third of Karlsens colonies would be dead in spring if he didn't do anything to treat against the mites. In spring 6 of his 100 colonies had died, some due to mice and a couple due to too small clusters, maybe because their queens were shifted too late for mites. But none of the colonies that the visitors had looked into died. Those in need of these had got new queens when the visitors left. In Sweden, what is called beekeeper B in the ABJ-article on the url above, have followed what's been happening with the six colonies in that test apiary. (Last miticide usedon some in 1996 and in the others in 1997.) They are still doing good up till this day. Alcohol tests of the bees (sample of 150-200 bees per colony) in broodless period in autumn gave values that could be calculated to a total of 1000-5000 mites when colony strength were considered. the 5000 value was for a colony that deliberatly had been allowed to raise a lot of drones the whole season. This colony also was the strongest and had given the biggest honey. That colony is also today the strongest. In May an alcohol test showed about 0.5% infestation on the bees (apart from the brood) with 6% for one colony (not the 5000 mite colony above). On another place a beekeeper is using Elgon and treating most in an apiary with Apistan and some with no miticide of any kind. Now since 1997. he can see no difference in the number of mites when checking drone brood in the two groups. Apart from this a test has been done investigating the initial mite growth for one season, from a very low level in spring. No difference was seen between controls and Elgon. As the host beekeeper managed the bees in such a way that almost all Elgons and controls swarmed, the test went on next year with kind of F1 daughter colonies. also the following season with these queens no statistical significant difference in the mite population growth was seen. What such a test tells you about the survivability of a bee colony I don't know. Actually I havn't seen any paper dealing with the connection of mite reproduction rate and survivability. I would not be surprized if survivability is composed of a lot of parameters, (for example cell size, ... said to stir the pot a little:-). Hope we all will find good durable solutions to the mite problem. I'm quite satisfied we are doing that. Many are working in a little different ways finding valuable parameters. Best regards Erik Osterlund honeybee@elgon.se _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob wrote: > > > Could capensis genes explain some of Dees success? I believe it could. Allen wrote: > > Well, it could -- if there were any evidence of capensis genes. In any discussion about beekeeping issues one has to find common ground. The above is the most solid common ground between Allen and I in the discussion. To prove my point all would be needed would be to find capensis genes. Surely we would have to agree that a large scale search for capensis genes has NEVER been done on Dees bees. Possibly not the feral bees of Arizona. If I am understanding Dee correctly zero testing has been done since the African bee invaded Arizona. The testing was done to confirm the race of bee Dee had so she could tell if the bees had become AHB. Any recent testing. Also how in depth a search for capensis genes? Surely we can also agree that capensis genes being carried with the bees entering Arizona (AHB) which can be directly traced back to the original Kerr release is possible (if not likely). The 300 mile per year march of AHb has been long documented. We know capensis queens were brought in by Kerr. When I did the first post I used the following for the subject: "capensis TRAITS found in Arizona feral colonies" My question to Dr. Hoffman was about the use of the word capensis type traits. She could have said AHB invading hives etc. but she did not. Since my researching SMR i have learned a few things about genes as the SMR trait is controlled we think or at least Harbo and Harris think by two genes. A couple researchers have said (off list to protect their reps) that two genes (possibly one) are *most likely* responsible for the capensis laying worker traits. A friend of Dr. Kerrs said Dr. Kerr had told him back in the 60's that he could isolate the capensis gene and put in any race of bee. My friend worked with Steve Tabor in the 60's and although he does not want his name used I believe his story. One reason I believe his story Is because I went to Illinois to bee meeting last fall to hear Steve Tabor talk. I asked Steve about a story my friend had told me in the meeting (in front of a room full of beekeepers) The answer Steve gave was word for word as my friend had told me. I thought Steve might avoid the question but he did not and answered honestly. I respect his honesty. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:57:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Blane and All, Sorry to draw my friend Blane into this discussion as Blane has a reputation to uphold. Blane wrote; > First I want to say Bob should be saying capensis or capensis-like > traits not genes ( fine distinction but the researchers were looking at > traits - behaviors - of the bees in AZ). To build on the excellent point Blane made researchers I believe were not and are not looking deep enough for the answers and they may never will . I believe that through dna we might be able to take the mystery out of Dees bees. Blane wrote: The traits reported were small > dark bees that invade other honey bee colonies and disrupt the colony by becoming pseudo-queens and the colonies becoming african or dwindling. Dee says these were pictures of her bees Dr. Hoffman was using? Dr. Hoffman says real problem for migratory beekeepers and Dee says a trait she breeds for. I will let the list decide. Blane wrote: > Hoffman showed pictures of the black pseudo-queens and of colonies being invaded and taken over. If these problem pictures were from Dee's bees from 1991 (as she posted in her post) then at what stage are these bees at today as far as pseudo-queens go. Am I looking at things wrong and the problem with the feral colonies Hoffman is seeing today is coming from Dee's bees? Dr. Hoffman did not give me the impression we were talking about a problem of 1991 but rather that this was a serious problem going on in Arizona today (2002) as she was reporting on the results of ongoing USDA research. Blane wrote: Yes the talk > quickly brought to mind the whole capensis mess in South Africa. I got the same point from the talk. We are in complete agreement. Blane wrote which has not been answered: > Now I do have a question about this matter. Is the observed set of > behaviors both in South Africa and in Arizona USA due to cape honey bee > traits or is it something that goes along with the thelytoky trait? If you select any given population of honey bees for thelytoky do you end up with this nest invasion and take over charactistic as well? If that is the case you don't need capensis genes being introduced to end up with capensis-like behavior. Sorry I had to leave the whole paragraph but afraid to remove any part so we can all be on the same page. From my research on everything I could find about the cape bee the answer would be as I posted originally in my quote from "the Hive and the honey bee" In short capensis has in its genes the genes to create a bee with the presence of large numbers of ovarioles in the ovaries of worker bees and WELL developed spermatheca (Anderson 1961). You do not get the same type behavior from scuts *simply* because scuts do not have large numbers of ovarioles and well developed spermatheca unless they possess genes for those traits in my opinion (and several others not wanting to come forward). I also believe as do many researchers that capensis has stronger pheromones than other mellifera which aids the pseudo-queens . Thelytoky experiments have been done and could be cited but results were dismal compared to capensis. Laying workers were produced but most of the eggs did not produce fertile eggs but in some instances a few fertile eggs were produced. Queens were raised in a few instances but the pseudo-queen behavior was not observed in the study I read. I can find the study but would take some looking. Old ABJ article of 15-20 years ago. The make up of capensis with those ovaries and spermatheca are such that laying workers are found in most hives of capensis . I have tried to contact Wyatt Mangum about the cape bee as Wyatt has done a recent article in ABJ on his recent observations on the cape bee in South Africa. He has not returned my email although his email address is posted with each article. If you are reading this post Wyatt believe me when I say I most likely would not get involved either. I will however be in the front row when you give your talk at the Kansas Honey producers meeting in October! Talk to you then after your talk in the answer part. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Willing to take the discussion further if the discussion remains civil. I am not worried about my reputation! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:23:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Susan Gallagher Subject: Fwd: Re: Bee's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello List, Below is a message forwarded from a wildlife rehabilitation listserv. The woman is located in Waterloo, Iowa. I was hoping to find someone nearby who might be able to help. Please reply to Terese if you can help. She's not on BEE-L. Thank you! Susan Gallagher --- Terese Evans wrote: > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:51:50 -0500 > From: Terese Evans > Subject: Re: Bee's > To: WLREHAB@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU > > Hi list, > A nice elderly man just called and said he lives in > an old house that > has been invaded by bee's. > He thinks they are the small honey bee's. > He said there were literally thousands of them > covering his front > picture window and side of the house. He can see > where they are > getting in at up high near the roof. > He does not want to harm them but wonder's if there > is a way he can > humanely ask them to leave. Today is the first day > that he has seen > them on and in the wall of the house. > They are planning on re-siding the house sometime > this summer also. > Suggestions welcome. > My thought is maybe call a bee-keeper and see what > he can offer? > Thanks. > Terese Evans > teresedo@kca.net > 9th yr.-S& F lic.--aka, "Mother Duck" > Pres. of Black Hawk Wildlife Rehab. Project, IA, & > NWRA member > "Yesterday is history, the future is a mystery, > today is truly a gift, > which is why it is called the present. Make each > new day count!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:15:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello everbody. I have a question for those of you who know something about queen cells. I am raising my own queen cells. The other day, i acdidentally dropped one of the queen cell frames from about a foot's height. None of the cells came loose or anything, but i am wondering if the larvae will be damaged or even killed by the drop. The cells are ten days from the egg was laid, so they were capped about 24 hours before the drop. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 06:45:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob Harrison wrote: > One reason I believe his story Is because I went to Illinois to bee > meeting last fall to hear Steve Tabor talk. I asked Steve > about a story my friend had told me in the meeting (in front of > a room full of beekeepers) > > The answer Steve gave was word for word as my friend had told me. I > thought Steve might avoid the question but he did not and answered > honestly. I respect his honesty. Hi Bob, So, what exactly did you ask Steve, and what was his answer? Inquiring minds want to know! Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 05:53:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Surely we can also agree that capensis genes being carried with the bees > entering Arizona (AHB) which can be directly traced back to the original > Kerr release is possible (if not likely). The 300 mile per year march of AHb > has been long documented. We know capensis queens were brought in by Kerr. Well, we have been around and around this on this list and elsewhere, but -- trigger words aside -- what is the upshot of the whole thing? We know that in the fullness of time, all sorts bees will eventually reach North America and Europe, and Aus and NZ, and the rest of the world, if not by riding containers ships, then by deliberate smuggling by beekeepers. Many of us have speculated for decades now, whether capensis is here, and also whether poorer wintering in Canadian bees compared to a half-century ago is related to the importation and distribution of African stock by the USDA many years ago in the era when most Canadian stock came up annually from southern US suppliers. The question -- IMO -- is not really whether there is capensis in Lusbys' stock, but if there is capensis in any or all American stock, and what the consequences, if any, might be. As I recall, capensis and scutellata existed side-by-side in Africa without problems for either bee until relatively recently. I assume people even moved bees from one area to the other over the past hundred years or more. Then something happened. Does anyone know what, for sure? It seems to have something to do with introduction of modern beekeeping practices and migratory beekeeping. Are problems like the one in Africa likely to happen in North America if capensis is found or brought here? Does anyone know? I have heard reports of capensis being openly brought to Europe and intermingled with the local bees there without any observed adverse effects on local populations. While some of the bee behaviours reported in G D-Hs talk do not sound very encouraging for those who wish to control their stock and breed bees (honey producers), they sound exiting for those who want bees that can take care of themselves (pollinators and hobbyists). As I said, if there was mention in the talk of hives dwindling and dying after invasion, I do not remember it. My impression was the opposite. Some written material from that talk would be most useful here. As I recall, G D-H chose here words very carefully and in the talk I heard did not seem to imply either good or evil in what she described -- she discussed the phenomena. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron and All, Aaron wrote: So what exactly did you ask Steve, and what was his answer? I asked what terminated the African bee project in Baton Rouge. Steve's answer: Those above Steve terminated the project while Steve was on vacation. Steve's answer to me privately was more in-depth. Steve acknowledged my friend and asked about my friend. Steve also talked about W.C.Rothenbuhler (researcher) which he is still in close contact with. Seems Steve considers Rothenbuhler one of the best researchers. I am going to reread Rothenbuhlers work (hopefully) next winter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. And we talked about Dr. Kerr, Steve's very close friend. I believe Steve Tabor to be the closest U.S. friend Dr. Kerr ever had but only my opinion. Steve still considers Dr. Kerr one of the best bee researchers the world has ever seen. Steve considers Dr.Kerr"s discovery of shipping frozen semen to have been a major discovery. Steve said the shipment of frozen bee semen was first done by Dr. Kerr. Really sad Dr. Kerr will go down in history known for the African queen release instead of his many other research findings. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:01:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mats and All, Time will tell about damage. probabbly none at the late stage but could be if the cell itself was damaged. I will say we are very careful about jarring or dropping queen cells at all stages. Many queen cells which seem normal in every way are simply torn down by the bees. We have never fiqured out why but have found the better care we take in grafting etc. the higher amount of finnished queen cells we get. Have others had the same findings on the list? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:34:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When you have two different hypothesis and the facts favor > both, the less complex hypothesis is always the one to be > preferred (wasn't that in science 101?) I appreciate Karen's thoughtful and often insightful posts, but might I add here that, regardless of which hypothesis is preferable, this guideline gives no guarantee that the one chosen by the rule -- or either one for that matter -- will prove to be true. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" testing configuration parameters, please ignore. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:19:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: help for a beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone who can help the referenced person should contact him directly. I received this this morning, and do not have any suggestions. Dear Sir I want to buy a machine made artificial honeycomb, please help me, if you don't know please for me other address, thank you. my address: dinhhien@saigonnet.vn or vongoctan02@yahoo.com Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:02:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mats Bob has already said what I was about to write, but I would add that you will not find out until they are hatched and mated (or not). The ratio of good cells to failures usually lies in the range 90% - 95% or 5% - 10% if you get a figure much different to this your dropping was probably the cause. I personally take great care about handling and transporting queencells. And would you believe:- I even have a special bit of kit for transporting them... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/celltransport.html Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:45:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: more testing, please ignore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I'm playing with configuration parameters to append [BEE-L} to the > Subject: line of all posts. This has been requested by more than one > subscriber. > > I'm also sleuthing an anomoly with the BEE-L digests > . > > Aaron Morris - thinking testing, testing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:14:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: still more testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Now I'm just sleuthing an anomoly with the BEE-L digests. Sorry to bother you all. . Aaron Morris - thinking testing, testing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:24:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cesar Flores Subject: HAA In-Reply-To: <200206140402.g5E3IlTg005354@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ok, what are heterocyclic aromatic amines ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200206171434.g5HDPdVK010573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Allen Dick .. might I add here that, regardless of which hypothesis is preferable, this guideline gives no guarantee that the one chosen by the rule -- or either one for that matter -- will prove to be true. ===== How true. However, the more simple the hypothesis, usually the easier it is to disprove it. For example, I might hypothesize that Aliens are traveling over Dee's bees, using a special type of space ship, on a regular basis and that the energy from the anti-gravity motors kills 100% of the mites each time (missing only those out in the field, providing a vector for reinfestation). Of course, my hypothesis is much more complex than most of the others postulated (and rather far-fetched), but just as difficult to disprove as the native bee theory (there being no positive evidence for either one). Just as, proving that 4.9 makes THE difference in Dee's bees would be a simple matter of taking her now well-established hives, splitting them into groups in two (or more) apiaries (the more used, the better the comparison) and shaking them onto "large" (standard 5.2) foundation (which Dee would have to press herself, to make the comparison valid). Then, leave the bees to their own devices, no treatments, and working them as she normally does. After 2 or 3 years (or less, if the large cell bees all die), compare both survivability and production. Of course, to meet the standards of publication, there would be a little more work involved, since one would have to have a way of ensuring that the starting mite population and genetics were comparable, as well as determining if a swarm has taken over a dead colony. Measuring the actual mite population at the end should be unnecessary, since it is "commonly known" that colonies won't survive two years untreated (and the survivability is what is being tested for, regardless of mite load). The more sites used, of course, the better the results as far as reliability (and the more risk and work for Dee). Others could, of course, do the research, but that would normally involve bringing in other variables (the climate, the local flora, different feral populations, possibility that the foundation wax itself makes a difference (not size, but wax source), inability of others to duplicate Dee's touch with introducing queens, selecting for her genetics, etc....). And regardless of who was involved, not a nice quick project, with results at the end of the grant year, to be published in time for the next application (so funding could be a problem, not just for the lack of commercial exploitation of the results). One of the main problems most have with those that are trying out 4.9 foundation and their enthusiasm for their perceived success (or even lack of the same), is the lack of any controlled studies that support their hypothesis (let alone prove them). More likely, the genetics that Dee has bred for (and the foundation size may have aided in that or her techniques of selection may have been the deciding factor) are the real reason for her success. Which is a great barrier to all the others trying to emulate her, unless their hives (and usually just a few hives) happen to have the same genetics to draw from (not likely outside of the particular region). Of course, if Dee's bees live in harmony with mites, produce as well (or pollinate as well, for those that do not care about honey production) and do not pose a great threat to other bee populations, then an obvious "solution" (although not likely the only solution) to the mite threat in the US would be for her to simply start selling her queens and packages nationwide, spreading that immunity through the entire country. Of course, if the capensis-like traits she has selected for not only mean that bees from her line would wipe out the other lines in the US, but are also not good producers (or pollinators or able to over winter in the north, etc...), that would be a disastrous occurrence (but, what is to stop that from happening, other than her own decisions?). Karen Oland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:45:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: HAA In-Reply-To: <20020617202434.87286.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In simple terms, (polycyclic aromatic) compounds that incorporate nitrogen into their makeup, in place of one of the carbon molecules. Practically speaking, the black stuff on your food when you cook out. Honey helps to prevent its formation, which researchers in #2 considered a good thing (not to mention the added effects of selling sweet hamburgers). http://www-space.arc.nasa.gov/~astrochm/azaPAH%20table/N-PAHs.html http://ift.confex.com/ift/2002/techprogram/paper_10890.htm "Heterocyclic aromatic amines (HAAs) are formed in cooked meat and fish products. These compounds are multi-potential carcinogens. Synthetic phenolic antioxidants and vitamin E have been reported to inhibit their formation. Honey contains various phenolic compounds, a-tocopherol, b-carotene and peroxidase which all function as antioxidants under certain circumstances." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:15:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jun 2002 to 16 Jun 2002 (#2002-164) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/06/02 05:03:42 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << That is a rarity nowadays in the UK. What have you done about it? Chris>> Nothing really; >> Robert, Your BKA will have a spray liaison officer. Tell him about it, if only for his annual report. It is probably too late now for a sample to be tested but if it happens again collect up the bees and send them off to the address he will give you to be tested. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:07:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Bee Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Flow has slowed up here in South Eastern Ontario right now. As I said = on my previous post I'm sitting with 4 mediums on right now, 3 are = almost full of a very nice light honey. I'm watching the sweet clover = grow. I'm hoping it will be ready by the end of the month. We can't = seem to shake all this rain. We are trying to get our new house = finished but the water was running around it like a small river. = Luckily there is a good slope away from the house so it's not in the = basement :) The bees have been not in a good mood this year with all = this cool wet weather. Since I had to move my bees, here in Ontario we = are to notify our bee inspector to get a move permit for them. This = involves an inspection. I've never had an inspection before but it was = very interesting to watch him move through the hives. I was able to ask = specific questions which relate just to my operation and get his = opinion. It was a very enjoyable experience. Anyway, I'm pleased to = report that he did not find any evidence of anything wrong in the hives = and I am now waiting for the report back for HBTM. =20 Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:32:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I might hypothesize that Aliens are traveling > over Dee's bees, using a special type of space ship, on a regular basis... I wasn't going to mention this, but I actually did see aliens near Lusbys' beehives. However, these aliens weren't in a space ship. They were hiking the miles north to their (illegal) jobs in the USA. They hid when they saw us -- at least as much as a full-grown humanoid biped can hide behind a four inch-wide cactus. I doubt that they had much effect on the mites, but you never can tell. > Just as, proving that 4.9 makes THE difference in Dee's bees would be a > simple matter of taking her now well-established hives, splitting them into > groups in two (or more) apiaries (the more used, the better the comparison) > and shaking them onto "large" (standard 5.2) foundation (which Dee would > have to press herself, to make the comparison valid)... Dee and I argued about this probably more than anything. She just says, "No". She says there is no point in putting the bees through it. Although I believe in the need for controlled experiments, I can see her point. What they are doing works and she doesn't feel a need to do things anybody's way but her own. She is sharing the methods and stock and anyone who cares to can do controlled experiments on their own time. Frankly, I have to admit that admire that attitude. She knows what she wants to know, and figures the proof is someone else's problem. And, you are very right, the proof could be very time-consuming and expensive. Meantime people are following her ideas and they will either succeed or fail. If enough succeed for long enough, the demand for proof will fall off. If not, the idea will just go away over time. Although we are all brought up on the scientific method and most of us accept its primacy without question, it is not the only way to discover truth, and not always the most practical. Most of our learning is not particularly scientific and we all seem to manage somehow. > One of the main problems most have with those that are trying out 4.9 > foundation and their enthusiasm for their perceived success (or even lack of > the same), is the lack of any controlled studies that support their > hypothesis (let alone prove them). I share this concern, yet I must confess that am about to join that unruly, unwashed mass of backyard tinkerers. I have some 4.9 and frankly, I have no intention of doing anything even remotely scientific with it. I'm just going to keep an eye out for some of the little grey bees I have seen in my outfit and when I find one of those hives, I will seize it and take it home where I will shake a good number of its bees into a hive body with nothing but 4.9 foundation (several kinds). I'll then watch and see what happens. If they draw it out at all well, I will have to get serious about revising a lot of my beliefs. > Of course, if the > capensis-like traits she has selected for not only mean that bees from her > line would wipe out the other lines in the US, but are also not good > producers (or pollinators or able to over winter in the north, etc...), that > would be a disastrous occurrence (but, what is to stop that from happening, > other than her own decisions?). That's what we have all been wondering, but since Lusbys bees are just selected and tuned versions of the common feral stock from around their neighbourhood, then it seems that this whole thing is a lot bigger than Lusbys. They have just decide to go with it rather than fight it. Again, the main thing Lusbys are doing differently from their neighbours is using the smaller foundation, so that seems to be the logical thing to suspect as a cause of their apparent success. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:06:08 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen Dick, referring to Dee Lusby, said: "Although I believe in the need for controlled experiments, I can see her point. What they are doing works and she doesn't feel a need to do things anybody's way but her own. She is sharing the methods and stock and anyone who cares to can do controlled experiments on their own time." As well as getting on and simply doing it, Dee Lusby appears to be claiming a degree of cause and effect. She is not simply "doing things her own way", but attempting to explain the results as well... At that point, I lean back to the need for the scientific method. And if Dee Lusby didn't understand what Karen Oland was trying to say to her and the list, try looking up Occum's razor... Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:19:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size!! was (capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, She is not simply "doing things her own way", > but attempting to explain the results as well... At that point, I lean back > to the need for the scientific method. > You may wish to give it a trial. Just because Dee is not a member of the scientific community does not mean she can not have results that she can attempt to explain to those willing to hear her and check out for themselves. > And if Dee Lusby didn't understand what Karen Oland was trying to say to her > and the list, try looking up Occum's razor... > In my opinion (I have checked this razor for sharpness) I find Occam's razor a crock sometimes. Using Occam's razor for a reason not to study something shows a lackadaisical reason to put it aside. We are not living in the time of William of Occam (1284-1347), things may have changed in 600 or so years. Here is something I wrote in a previous post on the subject of Occam's razor; >><< > Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size > Aristotle's cites a notion that "the more perfect a nature is the fewer means it requires for its operation." Keith Malone <><> Nothing can be simpler than changing foundation cell size and breeding for a better strain of bee. If the Lusby's have got a better strain of bee I say use it. Lots of people are trying to confuse this whole subject and all it needs is to be tried (trial & tested). Chemicals and various apparatus for controlling varroa and other ailments of the honey bee seems to me very much more complex than the simple solution. Besides Occam's razor fits fine with the Lusby's simple solution for a healthy honey bee. Check out this URL of a comic strip about Occam's razor. http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/occams_razor.html I hope I have not offended anybody of the scientific community but instead encouraged any and all to look at things more closely. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:05:03 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick has several times mentioned the apparent success of the Lusbys with their bees on 4.9 mm. But what is meant by success? Success to me would not only be maintaining colonies without using chemicals or manipulations to control varroa, but would also mean obtaining good crops of honey. Have the Lusbys achieved this? In other words, what are their honey yields like compared with bigger bees where varroa is controlled chemically? Recently Dee said something to the effect that in their current drought, her bees were storing honey when others in the State were not. So does this mean that her yields are even better than bees from bigger foundation? Regards, Barry Donovan Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre Lincoln New Zealand. ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:44:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: A Very Special Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob Walker of Sebring ,Florida did the following post Fathers day on the Florida Beekeepers list I belong to. I liked the post so well I asked Bob to let me run the post on BEE-L and he agreed. I had a old beekeeper I used to pick up and take to the bees until he crossed over so the post hit home with me. Bob wrote: I have a BEEKEEPER EMERITUS friend that I learned about from a newspaper article written about him. He will be 100 years young in October, I pick him up every once in awhile at the nursing home where he lives with his wife and bring him to my beeyard to see his beloved bees. Ostensibly for his pleasure but in reality to pick his still very active brain. He boasts of more than 80years in beekeeping. He doesn't get around too good so I let him sit in my airconditioned van and pull up near a hive and let him inspect the frames with bees. Although he wants me to lower the window , I insist on leaving it up for fear he has probabbly lost any immunity that he might have had . I tell him I don't want the bees in my car. Even so , he is just a few inches from his beloved bees. HE TALKS TO BEES AND THEY RESPOND TO HIM. I asked him why is it that sometimes I can do anything I want with my bees and they just act like I am not even there. But there are times when it seems they are just waiting at the ready to attack as soon as I open the hive. Time of day and colors of my clothes doesn't seem to make a difference. *100 year old beekeeper talking to Bob* He says they tell him its because they might just not be feeling well at the time, maybe they picked up some insecticide somewhere and are about to die, maybe they have been fighting with a beetle ,an ant or some other hive invader. They were probabbly having a problem before I got there and were just looking for a fight with whatever might come along that disturbs them further. Bob Walker wrote: Do we have anyone around with more experience that can refute this 100 years of beekeeping experience? I have only slightly over 40 years of beekeeping experience and the old beekeeper seems right on to me. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Happy Fathers Day". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:34:29 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan said: > Dee and I argued about this probably more than anything. She just says, > "No". She says there is no point in putting the bees through it. The point would be to support the specific claims being made. This seems to be nothing more than a funding question. If funds were available, the study would be under way. As it is, the employees of the nearest research facility (Carl Hayden Bee Lab) are not sure if they will even have jobs next year, which puts a real cramp in one's project planning. > Although I believe in the need for controlled experiments, I can see her > point. What they are doing works and she doesn't feel a need to do things > anybody's way but her own. She is sharing the methods and stock and > anyone who cares to can do controlled experiments on their own time. OK, but how does one isolate the two factors otherwise? What is "working" here? a) Nothing more than reduced cell size? b) Nothing more than the simple fact that the survivors of the process are mite resistant bees, since mites kill off the rest? > Frankly, I have to admit that admire that attitude. She knows what > she wants to know, and figures the proof is someone else's problem. The traditional burden of proof has been on the parties making claims, not on everyone else. > Meantime people are following her ideas and they will either succeed or > fail. If enough succeed for long enough, the demand for proof will fall > off. If not, the idea will just go away over time. Even with additional anecdotal reports, the central issue will remain fuzzy without a clear protocol to attempt to isolate "the bees" from "the cell size". While I agree that anecdotal reports can have an impact, they will be described as apocryphal unless the reports are consistent, widespread, and positive. If the anecdotal evidence piles up (and I must note that the "pile", while currently small, does exist), this will prompt funding for a study. Kinda sad that funding is so limited, but this is a prime example of how every beekeeper on the planet is participating in "an experiment", like it or not. In regard to 4.9, I guess my colonies are "controls". One might hope that profits from sales of "4.9" wax and plastic could fund studies, but the expense of tooling up to make these products means that profits simply cannot yet exist, and may never appear. (Note that 4.9 wax and plastic sales both slightly reduce sales of the more profitable "standard" wax and plastic, and have a higher cost basis due to capital investment and small quantities.) Long ago, "expert" beekeepers thought that wax moths could kill colonies. Various approaches to keeping wax moths out of hives were developed and sold. In that case, the apparent solution to the problem diverted time, money, and attention away from finding the actual root problem. > I wasn't going to mention this, but I actually did see aliens near Lusbys' > beehives... They were hiking the miles north to their (illegal) jobs in the USA. Funny how a Canadian, waved into the US with nary a question, sees a few people walking north, and instantly jumps to conclusions about their legal status and intentions. Perhaps they were INS agents, and they were watching your group. :) Perhaps they were heading for the same NHPA meeting you were. Perhaps they were US citizens, walking home from jobs at the plants across the border in Mexico. I should buy some land down near the Mexican border, and name it the Bar-None Ranch! jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Lusby strain In-Reply-To: <200206180400.g5I367Te003224@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >If the Lusby's have got a better strain of bee I say >use it. Lots of people are trying to confuse this whole subject and all it >needs is to be tried (trial & tested). I hope no one takes this seriously. The entire state of Arizona is Africanized, and I sincerely hope no one is deliberately moving bees out of there to northern states. You should remember that the results they are having could be entirely environmental in nature (hot, dry climate), which means the effects could not be exported to most other regions. By the way, there is nothing confusing in stating that in Africa smaller cells and smaller bees in do not reduce mites, which seems to cast doubt on this being a main factor. There is nothing confusing in stating that the Lusbys have so many variables going on that no one (not even them) can say what is the main factor in their reduction of mite counts. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:30:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Alan said: > > Meantime people are following her ideas and they will either succeed or > > fail. If enough succeed for long enough, the demand for proof will fall > > off. If not, the idea will just go away over time. > > Even with additional anecdotal reports, the central issue will remain > fuzzy without a clear protocol to attempt to isolate "the bees" from > "the cell size". While I agree that anecdotal reports can have an > impact, they will be described as apocryphal unless the reports > are consistent, widespread, and positive. We have many examples of this on this list. Studies by the inventor/discoverer were presented and sounded great. Others tried it and reported success on this list. Then a researcher ran independent tests and found the technique did not work. I am going to try 4.9 and see what happens. But only in one hive. I have been running on 5.0 so it should not be much of a problem going down 0.1mm. But my little experiment cost me $30 if it works. Looking at the economics of just my one hive, if it fails and I had to buy a package of bees to take their place I am looking at about $100 per hive to see if something works. And that does not include the lost honey and wax or the cost of labor. A real trial of 4.9 would easily run $10K+ and I am probably well toward the low end, since that would only be about 30 hives. >From strictly a cost point of view, it seems to make more sense to change the bee and not all of the equipment. I know if I were a commercial beekeeper that is the route I would favor. My equipment stays the same and all I have to do is requeen, something I would normally do. Cost and labor are minimized. Instead of $30-$50 per hive I am only spending a couple of dollars extra for a queen. From a researchers point of view, that is the proper route, since it is the best for the commercial beekeeper and the best route for getting funding for research. And it seem that the researchers have done just that with a host of different Varroa tolerant bees. 4.9, even if it does work, will be an interesting footnote compared to the research and success in developing a Varroa tolerant bee. And, as Jim alludes, this is what I think has actually been done since they continually say 4.9 is only a part of their management. The bee is a major part and I think the real reason for their success. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:04:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Lusby strain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > You should remember that the results > they are having could be entirely environmental in nature (hot, dry > climate), which means the effects could not be exported to most other > regions. By all means then maybe somebody like Dr. Tom Rinderer should isolate some of Lusby bee stock and do with it like they did with the Russian stock. Test it, and if they prove to be a good resistant strain then distribute them. It would not hurt to have more than one resistant strain. > The entire state of Arizona is > Africanized, > Can someone please tell me why AHB stopped at the Arizona border and did not enter Utah, Southwest Colorado, and Northern New Mexico? Also the invasion seems to have jumped past entire areas in New Mexico and in Texas and in Texas There still seems to be some areas within AHB areas that appear AHB free. How can this spottiness be? Why has AHB stopped where it has? Has it stopped or did it ever happen? http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The easiest way to understand my position on capensis traits (which Dr. Hoffman and Dee both agree are common in Arizona )is to take the time to read the posts posted on BEE-L from an expert on scutelliata and capensis. Of the 54 posts posted by Barry on BEE-L only a few are about capensis. Capensis/ scutelliata information posted mainly through my prodding . The two most important posts were written by Barry after I said we needed capensis information on BEE-L. Both those posts contain over 200 words and contain more information on scutelliata and capensis than any U.S bee book. I am going to ask Joe Graham (editer of ABJ and "The Hive and the Honey Bee") to consider including information provided by Barry Sergeant in the next edition. I know my friend Kim Flottum is reading this post. I believe information provided by Barry should be published in the next edition of "ABC XYZ of beekeeping". Both books are lacking in information on both scutelliata and capensis and with AHB in California we need to understand the problem. Consider the problem capensis vs scut in South Africa and capensis (traits to keep Allen at bay) vs European in the U.S. Like it or not the problems could end up being similar. The posts are named African bee briefing (1) African bee briefing (2) For author in the search use: sergeant@ MYIAFRICA.COM Barry in the second bee briefing states in his opinion all wild scuts contain at least 15% capensis. In the second briefing Barry talks about trying to remove the 15% plus capensis to come up with a purebred scutelliata. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Barry does quite a bit of work and research in remote areas in SA which he talks about in his posts. I hate to try and speak for Barry but I believe if Barry was reading the comments we have posted concerning capensis (traits) Barry would have posted by now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:51:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" African bee briefing (1) http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0106C&L=bee-l&P=R1512 African bee briefing (2) http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0106C&L=bee-l&P=R3650 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:07:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It's interesting that this subject should come up. The 41st Edition of The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture is currently being prepared and several of the authors have expressed the same need in the book. Several sources have already been identified, but certainly more are welcome. Thanks for the update, and the input. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Jun 2002 to 17 Jun 2002 (#2002-165) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/06/02 05:01:48 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << : capensis traits found in Arizona feral colonies >> You can sometimes arrive at the same destination by more than one path. In genetic terms it is called convergent evolution. This might be one explanation for the Capensis traits reported in Arizona bees. It is many years now since I read the Aebi book, Mastering the Art of Beekeeping, but remember that he reported it happening as a rare event in Italian bees. Possibly, and it could be more likely, Capensis behavior is available as a recessive trait among Apis mellifera generally but has been selected for naturally in the sub species Apis mellifera capensis and artificially in Apis mellifera lusbiensis. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:37:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Gunderson Subject: Gentle Honeybees There are lots of posts about aggressive bees; but I have read few about gentle bees. Is aggression/gentleness a dominent gene? How gentle can bees get? I have recently heard of an extremely gentle hive in a commercial operation and wondered how many others had exceptional hives? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:13:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Very Special Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, This is my 70th year; and in spite of my 5 strokes, I hope I am still around for another few years, so somebody like you can show me bees again through a car window. I have my 5th surgery on Thursday for restoration of my voice HOPEFULLY. I'll see you in Kansas City in January at ABF, and YELL AT YOU! George ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:17:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Lusby strain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > > I hope no one takes this seriously. The entire state of Arizona is > Africanized, and I sincerely hope no one is deliberately moving bees > out of there to northern states. You should remember that the results > they are having could be entirely environmental in nature (hot, dry > climate), which means the effects could not be exported to most other > regions. > Even more to the point if these bees are expressing charateristics of cape bees then we realy need to be careful about moving them around. Even if it is not the result of "capensis genes", it is the trait that matters here. The last thing wee need to see is our hives breaking out with pseudo queens. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: darrells Subject: Re: Copper Naphthanate In-Reply-To: <200206152037.g5FKYfRw002597@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tim Morris said "I am trying out the copper naphthate as a preservative for the first time" An article in the July issue of WOOD magazine talks about PT lumber and the fact that it will be banned in 2003 in the US. Tim is not using PT but a copper compound which is used as a wood preservative as is the copper compound in PT. The article describes the copper component in PT: "makes wood rot resistant and stops some insects". I believe that no part of a beehive should be treated with preservative except the hive stand that comes in contact with the ground but not with the bees. Paint your hive components (exterior only) with a good quality exterior grade paint. They will last for years. The component of PT that resulted in the ban is arsenic not copper but neither should be used around honeybees. As the PT label states: "do not use treated wood for mulch, cutting boards, counter tops, beehives, animal bedding, or structures or containers for storing animal feed or human food" Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:44:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Lusby strain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith: You might be interested in reading Dewey Caron’s brand new book: “Africanized Honey Bees In The Americas”. You can order the book directly through him at his email address dmcaron@udel.edu. The book is very good reading and will probably be more insightful than much of what is found on the internet. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:01:03 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials In-Reply-To: <200206170312.g5H2fKTc027814@listserv.albany.edu> Mark Otts wrote: > Since Erik Osterlund is not a member of this list, he asked that I > post this for him. > Just a few comments from me on the subject of survivability of > Elgon bees in connection with varroa mites. I have written two > articles where initial trials were described in Israel and Denmark, > in ABJ May -99 and in ABJ article which can be read here: > http://beesource.com/pov/osterlund/abjmar2001.htm Those articles were written by a "seller" and must be regarded as "advertizing" rather than objective descriptions of facts. Elgon bees were tested by the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences and by Landesanstalt fur Bienenkunde an der Universitat Hohenheim (Germany). Both come to the same conclusion. No difference was found between Elgon and "other bees" in terms of varroa tolerance. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:54:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: Capensis in Arizona + Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear All I have followed these two discussion points with interest over the past two weeks, but have refrained from commenting because I have previously posted to the List on both issues. But in terms of the current discussion, perhaps some thoughts and comments bear repeating; and also there is new information and possibilities. The "Capensis in Arizona" Situation: (1) Queenless worker Cape bees, historically present in only the Western Cape of South Africa, produce by thelytokous parthenogenesis and hence produce female offspring (workers or queens). This is probably evident is all pure Cape workers, but it is possible that some may produce drone offspring or no offspring at all. (2) Cape honeybees have some other unique characteristics: (a) workers have large numbers of ovarioles (average 12); (b) very large spermatheca; (c) ability to develop queen-like chemical signals very rapidly in the absence of a queen; (d) Cape workers are treated in a queen-like fashion by workers of other races, both as larvae (more feeding) and as adults; (e) Cape workers are not controlled (inhibited) by queens of other races. (3) Hence, when capensis workers get into colonies of other races, problems occur. The capensis workers develop chemically and physiologically; produce more capensis workers; and result in the loss of the queen. These colonies become capensis laying worker colonies, and normally dwindle to a few hundred bees, which may then invade other colonies, repeating the cycle. Capensis laying worker problems have been seen previously in Germany, Brazil, Zimbabwe and South Africa (at least 3 times). All of these, except the last event in South Africa, have dissipated or been controlled. (4) The last event in South Africa, the Capensis Problem, started in about 1990, effects almost all of non-capensis South Africa, and continues to this day. Hundreds of thousands of scutellata colonies have been lost, and as yet no solution is in sight. There are no indications of scutellata colonies resistant to the capensis takeover, but the problem is one only of commercial beekeeping, and the wild population is essential pure scutellata (and is not threatened by the Capensis Problem). (5) There are various speculative reasons as to why this capensis event has become such a huge problem, while others have not - but this remains largely speculation at this stage, and should not be part of this discussion. (6) In 1943 Mackensen published an account on research done on 3 "lines" of bees in the USA, which indicated that 1% of workers in these lines produced female offspring (assumed by thelytoky). This led to the general conclusion that thelytoky was present in all bee races of the world at a low level (1%) but was found in all Cape bees. (7) To the best of my knowledge, there is only one piece of supporting evidence for Mackensen's contention, and what is now conventional wisdom. And that is the report from Ericksen (about 1992) on the Lusby bees, that reported thelytoky in this population. This "line" of bees was then reported to have "disappeared" but is now again the centre of the reports of thelytokous bees from Arizona. (8) As far as I am aware, the only "capensis" trait being reported from the Arizona bees is that some of the workers produce female offspring, presumably by thelytoky. There is no report of them causing queen loss, dwindling in colonies, invasion of colonies or colony loss. (9) This situation is of both academic and economic importance, and is being investigated, as follows: (a) confirmation of the thelytokous reproduction of these workers; (b) investigation of these thelytokous bees to see if they are indeed capensis, or have other other capensis traits {this will involve looking at things like ovariole numbers and spermatheca, as well as DNA analysis (which is a great deal more difficult than it sounds, as capensis and scutellata are very similar genetically); (c) investigation as to whether any of the deleterious traits (invasiveness, queen loss, dwindling) occur with these thelytokous bees. (10) The results of which will indicate whether: (a) this is a non- capensis thelytokous population (of academic importance); (b) is a thelytokous but non-destructive capensis-type (which may be of value in the South African situation); or (c) is a thelytokous and destructive capensis-type, which should be of great concern to the USA. Small Cell Size and Varroa: (1) The natural cell size for African bees (capensis and scutellata) is 4.8 - 4.9 mm. (2) Varroa populations in colonies of both capensis and scutellata increased to enormous numbers (>5000) soon after the arrival of the mite. (3) Martin and Kryger (2001) report similar successful reproduction in scutellata worker cells to that found in European bees (with larger cells). I have found the same in worker cells of Cape bees. (4) These results clearly demonstrate that the smaller cell size, per se, of African bees does not limit the reproduction of varroa. (5) However, we are starting to see that, in an unmanaged population of Cape bees, varroa numbers have dramatically declined. Please note that .70% of this population has died since the beginning of monitoring, and the decline is in the survivors. Please note also that these results are preliminary, and far from conclusive. (6) The decline in varroa numbers in these colonies MAY be related to the high percentages of infertile (probably unmated) female mites found in the colonies; and these infertile females MAY be related to the SMR situation in the USA or MAY be related to something else, such as the small cell size. Martin & Kryger (2001) report increased mite mortality if African workers in cells are larger than normal. (7) In summary, I suggest that what we may be seeing is that the survivors of unmanaged African bee populations may be dealing with the mite. The reasons for this mite tolerance are yet to be determined, but small cell size may be a factor. I think that it is likely, however, that a number of factors will be involved. (8) I respectively suggest that something similar has occurred in the Lusby bees, and that simply enforcing the small cell size on OTHER BEES in the USA is unlikely to result in the same situation. I hope the above has contributed to the debate. regards Mike Allsopp Stellenbosch, South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:30:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame In-Reply-To: <005501c2161f$3700ed00$c457e150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dave Cushman wrote: "I personally take great care about handling and transporting queencells." Hey Dave, believe it or not, i usually take great care too;-) I was just extremely tired and unfocused from having worked with hives and extracetd honey too many hours in a row. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:31:47 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Expansion of Honey In-Reply-To: <001a01c216d1$2318d0c0$a47ded18@w3a7k4> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Does anyone have a value for the coefficient of expansion for honey?? I have consulted "Honey" (Crane) and the archives plus general material texts, to no avail. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Capensis in Arizona + Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and All, Thanks to Mike Allsopp from all of BEE-L! I was hoping a person with your experence would step forward. I especially appreciate your honesty as I know you are a friend of Dee and Ed Lusby as I hope I still am. I agree with Mikes posting on all but a couple minor points not worth talking about really. If we on BEE-L get lucky maybe Barry Sergeant and Lardus Erasmus might give their opinion on those points. Dr. Kerr felt that to create a *Super scut bee* he would have to remove the scut from South Africa. The thinking caused the release in Brazil. The Apicrown joint venture proves to me that in hypothesis Dr. Kerr was right about the *scut* having the material to be a super bee. maybe a scut with SMR genes is the answer. Sadly varroa is alive and well in both scut and capensis colonies in South Africa. Both have survied this long (in my opinion) by swarming away from varroa when mite loads reach the threshold level. Small cell size has little to do with controlling varroa with African bees in my opinion and apparnetly Mike Allsopp, Barry Sergeant and Lardus Erasmus feel they same way if I correctly understand their postings on BEE-L. However all of us agree that the Lusbys bees are suviving varroa and the reason why is important. For those on BEE-L which did not take the time to read the African Bee briefings I will add that for the last 20 years , full time scientist (biochemist) and part time major beekeeper Lardus Erasmus has been breeding queens of South Africa. Barry Sergeant is part of the project. The project is called Apicrown and an open invitation was made to all attending Apimunda in South Africa to visit and observe the queens. The original source for the queens were wild scuts (talked about in the briefings) about 20 years ago. I believe Lardus and Barry wrote the African Bee briefings together. Barry may have written the first bee briefing himself but I am sure Lardus helped with the second as he signed his name at the bottom. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Expansion of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Bray wrote: > Does anyone have a value for the coefficient of expansion for honey?? I have > consulted "Honey" (Crane) and the archives plus general material texts, to no > avail. My guess is that because honey is a mixture, it would be difficult to tabulate any solid numbers since there could be quite a bit of variability because of moisture content and the sugars involved. Which is probably why there is difficulty finding any data. Usually coefficients of thermal expansions are for homogeneous materials, such as elements, compounds and fixed, measurable mixtures. Plus, the value of the coefficient of thermal expansion is dependent on temperature, so there is not one distinct value, except for a specific temperature. And with some substances, like water, it can go both up and down over a temperature range (which is why ice floats). I made a search for sugar solutions and maple syrup and came up with nothing, including in the CRC Handbook of Chem. and Physics. Unless you are looking for exact numbers, you might try the values for distilled water as an approximation. You are talking numbers in the range of 10 to the minus 4 when using Centigrade so any changes in the liquid state will be minimal. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:28:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mats > Hey Dave, believe it or not, i usually take great care too I was not criticising your handling... I was refering to a general lack of delicacy of handling that I see in many other beekeepers. I feel that many queens are compromised by rough handling of cell frames or individual cells, or not keeping frames vertical. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by darn@TELUSPLANET.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove the entirety of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=F5061C8B) (64 lines) ------------------- From: "Donald Aitken" Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] Dropped queen cell frame Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:52:37 -0600 Hi Dave: I am trying the Hopkins method of cell production this year. I don't see how one can cut free the cells without turning them upside down or at least turning the frame on its side. Has anyone tried this method recently? Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Capensis in Arizona + Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and All, Had a few questions. Mike wrote: Capensis laying worker problems > have been seen previously in Germany, Brazil, Zimbabwe and South > Africa (at least 3 times). All of these, except the last event in South > Africa, have dissipated or been controlled. I did not know about the problem in Germany. How was the problem solved? Was the problem related to queens brought back from South Africa on the trip several German beekeepers took with Brother Adam? In the video "The Monk and the Honey Bee" Brother Adam says scuts are not a bee he is interested in for his breeding program but accepts a scut queen any way. (4) There are no indications of scutellata colonies resistant to the capensis takeover, but the problem is one only of commercial beekeeping, and the wild population is essential pure scutellata (and is not threatened by the Capensis Problem). To add to what Mike wrote in my opinion our U.S. European commercial bees would not be able to handle capensis either . My opinion is also the opinion of Dr. Shiminuki and expressed at several of his talks I have attended. I believe because our European feral colonies do not swarm and abscond like scuts do they would be threatened by capensis in the U.S. EVEN if the feral European bees had the SMR gene or Russian decent. The point I am trying to make is it has long been the goal of the Usda to introduce the smr gene into our feral swarms through swarming from commercial hives which is logical thinking. If pseudo queens are in the area then they could stop or prolong the effort to repopulate the U.S. with varroa resistant bees by killing off those colonies. > (5) There are various speculative reasons as to why this capensis > event has become such a huge problem, while others have not - but > this remains largely speculation at this stage, and should not be part of > this discussion. I believe as Barry and Lardus do that migratory beekeepers moving capensis out of the isolated cape area caused the problem around 1990. Now for the big question I have been wanting to ask. Was African queens shipped to Arizona from Baton Rouge in the 1960's? > (6) In 1943 Mackensen published an account on research done on 3 > "lines" of bees in the USA, which indicated that 1% of workers in these lines produced female offspring (assumed by thelytoky). this was the old ABJ article I refered to in a earlier post this week. . Although results were seen to (in my opinion) a minor degree the experiment proved to me that although all mellifera are capable of thelytoky *without the strong pheromones of capensis workers and the large ovaries and spermatheca all but capensis pose much of a threat to commercial U.S. beekeeping.* Scuts with capensis genes for the above would be the exception. If Dees bees are only showing thelytoky on a small scale and not pseudo queens they would be of only casual interest to me. > (7) This "line" of bees was then reported to have "disappeared" but is now again the centre of the reports of thelytokous bees from Arizona. Dee has said thelytoky has been in their bees for three generations without problems which would not cause concern as long as not seeing pusedo queens. However if those bees I saw pictures of in Dr. Hoffmans presentation were Dees bees as Dee claims then I do see a possible problem growing for the migratory pollinators if those bees were to be brought into areas of commercial pollinators hives. The same concern was expressed by Dr. Hoffman in her presentation. > (8) As far as I am aware, the only "capensis" trait being reported from > the Arizona bees is that some of the workers produce female offspring, presumably by thelytoky. There is no report of them causing queen loss, dwindling in colonies, invasion of colonies or colony loss. If you had seen Dr. Hoffmans talk ( Savannah ABF 2002)you might think differently which is how the whole subject got started. Dr. Hoffmans talk was about the possible threat these pusedo queens pose to commercial pollinators bee hives. > (9) This situation is of both academic and economic importance, and is > being investigated, (Dees bees) Who is doing the tests and will the results be made public? Thanks again for taking the time to add your input Mike to the discussion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:35:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame Comments: cc: amorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There shouldn't be any problem turning a queen cell on it's side, or even upside down for a short period of time. I routinely turn them over briefly to inspect them, and transport capped cells on their side with no ill effects. The problem arises when they are allowed to develop in a unnatural orientation, or a ripe queen cell is placed in a hive in the incorrect orientation. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Gentle Honeybees Comments: cc: curtisgunderson@HOTMAIL.COM In-Reply-To: <200206182337.g5IMwCTo001481@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Honeybees can be very gentle. Talking to Joe Latshaw of the Ohio Queen Breeders (http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/), the genes for aggression/ gentleness can be selected for and are accumulative. Ie. by selective breeding you can breed gentler, and gentler bees. Cross a gentle bee with a aggressive bee and the result is one that falls about halfway in the middle. According to Latshaw, aggressiveness is not linked in any way to honey production (unless you consider robbing tendencies of aggressive bees, but that's just hurting your other hives), and thus can be selected for independently. Latshaw selects queens for gentleness, brood production (which leads to honey production), mite resistance/suppression and overwintering. Their numbers I saw this spring were very impressive. And they work bees without equipment and destroy hives that have any propensity to stinging humans (though they have noted no significant difference in the response to pests, skunks and the like). I would love to try one of these queens as they sound like a joy to work with, but they are a bit out of my price range as he only produces artificially inseminated breeder queens at 500 each. I hope though to try some open mated queens raised by other breeders from his stock. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:05:29 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: The Monk and the Honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the Video "The Monk and the Honeybee" Bro. Adam and his co-workers do = indeed accept an A.m. scutellata queen. This queen and the A.m. = monticola collected on Elgon (Tanzania) and Kilimanjaro did not survive = the trip back to Europe. The "Monticola" bees used in the Buckfast = strain are actually from Mount Elgon in Kenya - and are possibly a = separate subspecies from the population found on Kilimanjaro and Mount = Elgon (Tanzania). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Capensis in Arizona + Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Trying to run a business and play on BEE-L is quite a challenge. Bob Harrison wrote: > > pheromones of capensis workers and the large ovaries and > spermatheca all but capensis pose much of a threat to commercial U.S. beekeeping.* Instead of *all but* the sentence should read *only* Sorry for the mistake in wording. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:45:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Capensis in Arizona + Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > (8) As far as I am aware, the only "capensis" trait being > reported from > the Arizona bees is that some of the workers produce female offspring, > presumably by thelytoky. There is no report of them causing queen > loss, dwindling in colonies, invasion of colonies or colony loss. > Thank you. This was the primary point of one of my posts. As long as we are not looking at the spread of a dangerous trait there is less need for concern. Keeping mite levels under control may well end up being the result of many traits. It is difficult to guess which combination of traits and management techniques will result in postive gains for the industry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Gentle Honeybees In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619133636.03ab2ec0@192.168.42.8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Tim Arheit wrote: > Honeybees can be very gentle.... According to > Latshaw, aggressiveness is not linked in any way to honey production.... I admit to defeat by the archive. I had trouble trying to find an argument. With all the breeding that's been done over the years to produce a gentle bee easy for keepers to handle, has there been a change in the bee's response to parasites? --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:06:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Lusby strain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees are routinely moved in and out of the area for wintering purposes. See http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020613/ap_on_bi_ge/honey _industry_1 for someone who was not this year, but only due to the drought conditions. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst I hope no one takes this seriously. The entire state of Arizona is Africanized, and I sincerely hope no one is deliberately moving bees out of there to northern states. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:52:13 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: Plastic 4.9mm Foundation - Trials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A short comment from Erik Osterlund to the below: Yes I'm a "seller", of a very limited number of queens, beside the breeding and testing work, I'm involved in. I have another occupation that takes most of my time. If I'm trustable is up to anyone to try to find out. That's the problem with all people you listen to, you have to try to get a picture of the person communicating. One thing concering tests is that it's essential if they are testable and possible to repeat. And if there are others that could confirm or not what is being said and tested. To be noted, as I made clear in my former comment, is that the tests cited below by /vov/, of which one was mentioned by me, that done by the Swedish University of Agriculture (at the end of my former posting), is that these scientific tests made, only are focused on the reproduction success of the mite, not the survivability of the bee colony. Survivability involves more parameters than mite reproduction. Also the test done by Landesanstalt fur Bienenkunde (mentioned in ABJ -99 article) dealt with mite reproduction during the "first season" of mite infestation. And again, is any paper published dealing with the relation between mite reproduction and survivability of the bee colony. There are many questions that could be asked and dealt with in such a paper. To be noted here is that tolerant bees in South and Latin America normally have "several thousand" of mites according to Martin and Kryger" in Apidologie 33:51-61. Unfortunately I know of no university doing survivability tests of beekeeper managed bees concerning mites, but Erickson in Arizona with local bees (presented in ABJ). Rinderer on Primorsky bees did one test (Apidologie 32:381) that possibly could be attributed under such a heading. But no test dealing with other bees. But there are possibilities to do so of course. There is also a possibility to take contact with Mr Karlsen on the island Bornholm. There are more than one type of bee that can survive the mite in normal way of beekeeping. This survivability I'm convinced is a complex matter with more than one parameter involved. Let's concentrate on survivability and together try to find out the different parameters. And look positiveky on each others efforts. It would surprize me if this is not what we all want. Best regards and thanks for being able to in this way to take part on your list Erik Osterlund ----------------- I wrote: >>Just a few comments from me on the subject of survivability of >>Elgon bees in connection with varroa mites. I have written two >>articles where initial trials were described in Israel and Denmark, >>in ABJ May -99 and in ABJ article which can be read here: >>http://beesource.com/pov/osterlund/abjmar2001.htm /vov/ commented: >Those articles were written by a "seller" and must be regarded as >"advertizing" rather than objective descriptions of facts. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:50:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy & Isa Chase Subject: ABC Evening News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I recall my news reports correctly, the Agricultural Funding bill which was passed by Congress and signed into law included provisions for a modified honey loan program. The Homeland Security Bill has passed both houses of Congress and is in committee to reconcile the differences. However, President Bush has indicated that he will veto the bill because it is more than what he requested (by a few billion dollars). I am not aware of any provisions in the Homeland Security bills that impact honey production but then again surprises often come out of Washington. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:49:02 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Remedy for aggressive bees. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan's (BEE-L, False Alarm, 15 th June) harrowing experience with dangerously aggressive behaviour suddenly appearing in managed hive bees situated within range of unsuspecting "innocent bystanders" ( in his case nearby farm workers), reminded me of a similar experience that I had with a small, 10 hive, queen cell raising apiary that I had located in my metropolitan home block, some years ago, here in Perth, Western Australia. These were well-bred Italian bees, easy to handle, gentle in nature, and very productive. They presented no problems whatsoever for some 15 months (one and a half production seasons). Even my next door neighbour, whose kitchen window was only 6 feet away, was unaware of their presence, due to the vegetation screen. But suddenly that all changed. On one day, every pedestrian walking on the footpath some 50 metres away was pursued and chased by aggressive bees, 2 dogs were also given a very hard time. My own dog would not even leave the house after her experience! It was impossible to exit or enter our house without an escort of determined kamikaze bees, and I became public enemy number 1 in our normally tolerant and forgiving family. Our next door neighbour was also "imprisoned" in her own home. After a day of absolute drama, I shifted the bees away that night, and thankfully, peace returned to the district, with no aftermath of reported stings, complaints to the local authorities, litigation or divorce proceedings! However severe aggression persisted in that apiary for some time afterwards until I had identified and culled the matriarch of the rogue hive. As in Tim's case, she was a beautiful golden queen, heading a populous hive with exceptional brood pattern etc.She was the queen I had placed in the hive some 20 months previously, and had not superceded. But lethal to say the least. I learnt 2 valuable lessons from the experience. NEVER "trust" any bees to behave themselves in an urban environment, no matter how well behaved they have been previously, how well they are located, how good the foraging conditions are, or how good your management is, and secondly, even the best bred queens will occasionally spring surprises on you. The reason I relay this experience, which no doubt many others will also have endured, is because of the interesting remedy told me by another very experienced beekeeper, descended from a family of beekeepers going back a long time.When I told him of the dramas which had unfolded in my neighbourhood that day, he told me how I could have solved the problem of aggressive flying bees in the vicinity of the apiary. He claimed that a standard 10 litre bucket containing about 4 litres of kerosene standing on the ground about 3-4 metres from the hives would have attracted all those flying mischief makers to their demise. Apparently, they don't like the smell, and will attack the bucket, only to drown in the kero. To date I have never needed to apply this remedy, so can't actually vouch for its effectiveness. But the information may be of value to others who may find themselves in similar difficult circumstances. I would certainly be interested to know of other peoples experiences. Who knows, it could save lives, because lives are lost to bee stings, certainly here in Australia, every year. Peter Detchon homesteadhoney@wn.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:13:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: ~ AHB Spottiness? ~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I will try again for an answer. Can someone please tell me why AHB stopped at the Arizona border and did not enter Utah, Southwest Colorado, and Northern New Mexico? Also the invasion seems to have jumped past entire areas in New Mexico and in Texas and in Texas There still seems to be some areas within AHB areas that appear AHB free. How can this spottiness be? Why has AHB stopped where it has? Has it stopped or did it ever happen? http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:27:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Lusby strain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Al wrote: Even more to the point if these bees are expressing charateristics of cape bees then we realy need to be careful about moving them around. Even if it is not the result of "capensis genes", it is the trait that matters here. The last thing wee need to see is our hives breaking out with pseudo queens. Reply: Interesting reading on BEE-L recently. Are BEE-L readers aware that the thelytoky trait was first observed by Huber in the 1800s in England from bees brought there from Tunisia and that the trait when looked at by Mackensen was found readily enough in Italian and Caucasian bees? These were all studied I think, but I could be wrong, long before Cape bees were found to have the trait. Also on another note, Arizona was declared africanized as a state just after our state was fully deregulated and not just by defunding as was done in other states. We managed to wipe the inspection laws fully off of the statutory books. Also, since survery were ever conducted of managed beekeepers colonies looking for same, and no feral full survery was ever accomplished prior to or even after full deregulation, then just what is Africanization in Arizona, other then an administrative signing of the pen? Regards, Dee A. Lusby (p.s. also the past Pres of the Arizona Beekeepers during the deregulation!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:30:35 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: Capensis in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All To reply to Bob Harrison's questions: > I did not know about the problem in Germany. How was the problem > solved? Was the problem related to queens brought back from South > Africa on the trip several German beekeepers took with Brother Adam? There were minor capensis-takeover problems in isolated research apiaries (completely unrelated to Brother Adam). The problem was solved by winter eliminating the cape workers. > To add to what Mike wrote in my opinion our U.S. European commercial> bees would not be able to handle capensis either . My opinion is also US commercial bees would most certainly not be able to handle capensis, and it would be likely to cause great devastation if released. > Was African queens shipped to Arizona from Baton Rouge in the 1960's? > I have no idea. > Who is doing the tests and will the results be made public? Plans are still in their infancy, but it should be basically a collaboration between myself and Dr Hoffman of USDA-Tucson. I have no doubt that all results will be made public. regards Mike Allsopp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:10:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Dropped queen cell frame/Hopkins - Case method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Don (via Aaron) > I am trying the Hopkins method of cell production this year. I don't see how > one can cut free the cells without turning them upside down or at least > turning the frame on its side. Good point... As it happens, I have been looking at this Hopkins/ 'Case' method, in fits and starts, over many years and I have gathered a bundle of notes on the process. However, I am not a very tidy person... I was looking at those notes only a few weeks ago, but now I cannot find them (I have thousands of such bundles laying around as the filing cabinets are full). I cannot remember whether this point is addressed in Gerry Hayes recent write up, but I know that in my notes I have a design for a frame with swivelling slats that can be set with strips of foundation (these can be drawn out by a swarm). The drawn frame can be laid up with the frame installed vertical and on the fourth day the slats have the intervening cells trashed and they are turned so the the cells will hang down. I must confess that the reason for designing this piece of kit was to eliminate the wooden framework that is needed to house a proper Case horizontal frame. Attitude disturbance was not considered at the time I did the original work, perhaps it should now be considered... As I have made a particular point of championing better reverance for queencells for two or three years. The swivelling slats may well be an answer for this reason as well, so I will redouble my effort to find the notes and will write it up as a web page. I would be grateful to receive any comments (on or off list) for inclusion in such a page Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:25:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim > There shouldn't be any problem turning a queen cell on it's side, > or even upside down for a short period of time. I routinely turn them > over briefly to inspect them, and transport capped cells on their side > with no ill effects A great many beekeepers treat cells this way and consider that there were no ill effects, obviously the degree of movement or vibration has a bearing on the amount of damage, but at what point does this damage start? or is it a linear increase from zero? > The problem arises when they are allowed to > develop in a unnatural orientation, or a ripe queen cell is placed in > a hive in the incorrect orientation. Unnatural orientation is not in itself a problem until vibration or shock come into the equation. Queencell misplacement is at least under the control of the beekeeper and any possible damage will vary according to what stage of development the pupa was when put in the innappropriate position. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 06:05:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: No Capensis Found (yet) in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for stepping in Mike, and supplying us with some facts -- and perspective. > US commercial bees would most certainly not be able to handle > capensis, and it would be likely to cause great devastation if released. Can you speculate over what period of time that would ocur, and how the beginning of such problems might manifest themselves and be recognised? Would they be immediate and obvious, or slow, subtle, and hard to recognise? I realise that this is asking you to make some guesses, and it would be understandable if you would prefer not to do so, but whatever you can do to sketch out a possible scenario would be most instructive. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:11:12 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame/Hopkins - Case method In-Reply-To: <005601c2184d$51940a00$4b3ce150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Excuse my combination of lack of/hunger for knowledge - what is the Hopkins Case method? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:37:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame/Hopkins - Case method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > what is the Hopkins Case method? A graftless method of raising queens. See: http://beesource.com/pov/hayes/abjmay91.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:20:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: ~ AHB Spottiness? ~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith and All, You might find the answers you seek in the new issue of the American Bee Journal vol. 142 no. 7 or July 2002 pg. 480. The article is titled "Answers to the Puzzling Distribution of Africanized Bees in the U.S." and written by Villa, Rindered and Stelzer of the Baton Rouge Bee Lab. The article does a excellent job of documenting AHB spread. If the hypothesis of these researchers is correct then instead of only cold winters limiting AHB AHB may may be limited by Temperature, rainful , humidity etc. I personally do not buy the hypothesis as THE ONLY answer why AHB has not spread further. Even the writters admit there are counties next to each other in Texas with exact same weather patterns and one has documented AHB and the other does not. The article says there are still a huge number of traps for AHb being monitored. I believe the article is in depth and well written with information we have never seen before but still lacks the concrete reason why AHB is not documented in Florida today. Not one U.S. researcher predicted the stop of the spread of AHb in the U.S. like it has. To add support to the weather related hypothesis we know the small hive beetle problem slowed way down in the southeast with the drought conditions and many beekeepers claimed their home remidies were the reason. The rains came and SHB was back with a vengence. Hmmm. My friends in Florida have been emailing me about their SHB problems. Looks like we have got a serious pest on our hands in the southeast. So far all I have been able to come up with for small hive beetle is to lower humidity in honey processing area, remove and process honey faster and KEEP STRONG HIVES with reduced entrances when honey flow is not on. Small hive beetle could be a major problem (mating nucs) for queen breeders in the southeast once established to its full potential in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: ~ AHB Spottiness? ~ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Bob wrote in part: "If the hypothesis of these researchers is correct then instead of only cold winters limiting AHB AHB may may be limited by Temperature, rainful , humidity etc." In other words climate. This is certainly true of other animals and total climate data is used to predict survivability of a species in a new area. This is important in wildlife introductions such as pheasant and Hungarian partridge. Bob wrote in part: "Not one U.S. researcher predicted the stop of the spread of AHb in the U.S. like it has." Spivak and Taylor did quite a few years ago now at least their map is the closest I have even seen that was forecast before AHB was found in TX. Based again on climate conditions in South America and spread of AHB there. Bob wrote in part: "To add support to the weather related hypothesis we know the small hive beetle problem slowed way down in the southeast with the drought conditions and many beekeepers claimed their home remidies were the reason. The rains came and SHB was back with a vengence. Hmmm. My friends in Florida have been emailing me about their SHB problems. Looks like we have got a serious pest on our hands in the southeast." The other factor involved in both cases is varroa resistant to treatments appearing in the same area at the same time. First fluvalinate resistance and now Coumaphos resistance. Stressed bees would appear to be much more easily attacked by the beetles or is it the climatic conditions. Hard to separate the two factors out when they both appear together. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:45:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Gentle Honeybees In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:41 PM 6/19/02 -0700, you wrote: >With all the breeding that's been done over the years to produce a gentle >bee easy for keepers to handle, has there been a change in the bee's >response to parasites? Entirely possible. If you only select for one trait, all others ignored could very quickly get worse (swarming, honey production, response to parasites, etc.) It could be worse if the genes controlling such are related, though it is my understanding that they are not. A good breeder should select for multiple criteria, perhaps ranking them by importance, but ignoring none. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:28:53 -0400 Reply-To: OhioBeeFarmer Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Re: Gentle Honeybees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had the opportunity to see these bees first hand at Ohio State. They were light colored and very calm almost to the point I wondered if they weren't on Ridlin. There were no bees coming and going whatsoever. The top was open so we could all veiw them and they just sat there. I can guess that the box we were viewing was moved there probably that morning or previous evening as it was in a parking area for our group to see. Could be that all the field bees had flown back to their old location allowing some of the more gentler bees to remain. This could also explain why they weren't flying around 2:00 in the afternoon although I would of expected some coming and going. There was a few kids that picked at the bees trying to get there response with no luck... I was kind of expecting to see one of them getting some attention they really didn't want but, the bees were content at just looking at us as we looked at them. OhioBeeFarmer Getting youth involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html -------Original Message------- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Date: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:16:11 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Gentle Honeybees A good breeder should select for multiple criteria, perhaps ranking them by importance, but ignoring none. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: soybean pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I live in Iowa, USA, where we plant 11 million acres in soybeans per = year, almost a third of our total area. I have read that some data = indicate bees pollinate beans, and in so doing increase yields, but = apparently there is some uncertainty about this. Can anyone fill me in? = Any recent research? Thanks Inger Lamb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I just returned from catching *the truck stop swarm*. I thought information about *the truck stop swarm* might come in handy to those beekeepers which have yet to receive a call about *the truck stop swarm*. Ways to reconize *the truck stop swarm*. 1. usually appears (or noticed ) at day break. 2. usually located on the outside lane in the truck fuelling area. 3. always on the roof over the fuel lanes close to the lights. 4. loose bunch of bees and not in a typicaal swarm bunch 5. *the truck stop swarm* is not like your typical swarm and usually there have been a couple stingings before the beekeeper arrives Ways to get out of going after *the truck stop swarm* 1. Can't come today but will come next week 2.say you are afraid of heights 3. charge a ridiculous fee I always go if the bees are creating a problem. What to do with the *truck stop swarm* after catching 1. drive to a remote area shake the bees out and drive away. (method I use as I do not want to bring new problems into my hives and without a queen the bees will simply live a few days and die off) 2. You can shake out in the area of your hives but I never do. Small hive beetle could be in the *truck stop swarm* plus other bee problems. I have never seen *a truck stop swarm* with a queen for obvious reasons. I have created a few *truck stop swarms *so will explain. Trucks loaded with bee hives normally fuel at night. They always use the outside lane on the truck fueling side. Many use Meyer red road runner netting (I do)so the fact the truck is hauling beehives is not easily discovered. Those attendants familier with *the truck stop swarm* will run out and wave you away from the truck stop if they figure out you are loaded with bees. While fueling usually around 500 to ??? bees are able to escape and fly up to the lights on the canopy. The bees are mostly older guard bees which have excited the hive under the netting and are in a nasty mood. My method to handle *the truck stop swarm* 1. close the lanes on both sides of the lane with the *truck stop swarm* 2. get a truck to back his truck under the canopy with the swarm. I have never been turned down by a trucker I asked. Better in my opinion than working off a ladder and I have always been able to reach the *truck stop swarm* but might not work at every truck stop. 3. use a ladder to get on his truck 4. The best method is to use a bee vacuum but you can use a swarm box. 5. when you brush the bees you will quickly notice the bees are aggressive and will sting. The bees fly back out of the swarm box almost as quickly as you brush them in. 6. keep jarring the swarm box on the roof of the truck to keep the bees in the bottom of the swarm box. 7. spraying the bees with sugar syrup helps. 8. you will not get all the bees without a bee vacuum but you will *like I did today* reduce *the truck stop swarm* to about a hundred bees or less(if lucky) The longer you try to get every bee more irrate the remaining bees will become and those bees can cause stinging around the truck stop. If you do not have a bee vac be content to leave a few bees. 9. the truck stop girls will think you are so brave. The girls also have kind words for the attendent ( my neighbor and person which called me *three stings on the face*) and truck driver (loaned the use of his truck *one sting on top of his head*) which were stung today. I received one sting on the side of my face but was laughing so hard at my neighbor running between the trucks swatting at the bees with his hat I enjoyed the event . Now go out into the world and as I did and remove the queenless , worthless *truck stop swarm*! 10. *Be sure to suit up* (which I did not) unless you want to have some fun with your neighbor and the over the road truck driver which would not head your warnings about the *truck stop swarm*. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps I am sure many on BEE-L will not find anything funny about being bee stung. I apologize to those people as I could have left the stinging part out. I always carry a epi pen in the truck for emergencies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: soybean pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Inger and All, Can anyone fill me in? Any recent research? I can't recall any recent research. Dr. Erickson did a article in ABJ years ago. I am not a fan of Dr. Erickson and and had problems with both Dr. Ericksons ABJ papers on soybeans and on wintering. Regardless what many on the list might say bees in Missouri , Iowa and Nebraska work Soybeans and put up a surplus in many years (in my opinion) . The bees enter the beans from the sides of the fields about ten am in the morning in my area. Although climate plays a part there are two varieties which the bees seem to always work. Most farmers in my area plant four varieties to get pollination. Farmers on which I have placed bees with fields of soybean report about a ten Bu. per acre increase which proves the bees are working the blossoms to me besides seeing the bees work the blossoms with my own eyes. I took a whole day and drove to the soybean field every hour for the whole day. I must caution Inger that there are beekeepers at each bee meeting which will say bees to not work soybeans and do not make a surplus from soybeans. I will caution the list that I have had two reports from commercial beekeepers of bee kills from hives sitting on fields on Roundup ready soybeans. I have had no problems (yet) and the local MFA says there is no possible way the soybean fields could be causing the bee loss. Any problems from beekeepers on BEE-L with bee hives on fields of roundup ready soybeans? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:46:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Lusby strain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: By the way, there is nothing confusing in stating that in Africa smaller cells and smaller bees in do not reduce mites, which seems to cast doubt on this being a main factor. There is nothing confusing in stating that the Lusbys have so many variables going on that no one (not even them) can say what is the main factor in their reduction of mite counts. Reply: What we are doing that can be read by anyone can be found at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjnov1989.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm It is based on honeybee field management on a "wholebee concept" and not doing field management by soundbites in bits and pieces. Further, the bees are always here to come and see for yourself, and take wax samples for residues, and varroa/trachael count samples, and/or any secondary disease sampling also. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:39:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: No Capensis in Arizona In-Reply-To: <200206210402.g5L3qaTG008197@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear All Allen Dick asked: > > > US commercial bees would most certainly not be able to handle > > capensis, and it would be likely to cause great devastation if > > released. > > Can you speculate over what period of time that would ocur, and how > the beginning of such problems might manifest themselves and be > recognised? Would they be immediate and obvious, or slow, subtle, and > hard to recognise? > My responses here are largely speculative; the bottom line is that we really do not understand our Capensis Problem well enough. My first comment is one that I made in my initial post; namely, is our Capensis Problem the same in all respects except scale as the previous capensis incidents? Or, in the current situation, do we have something "special"? A "more virulent" super-capensis. Maybe it is better at invasions, or take-overs, or has more pheromone, or whatever. Alternatively, maybe there is nothing "special" about the culprits of the current Capensis Problem, in which case all capensis would cause similar problems. >From the USA point of view, the attitude should be the same in either event. In the first instance - keep out all capensis in case you get the "bad" one. In the second instance - keep out all capensis because they are all bad ones. Then, to answer your question, what would happen if "bad" capensis got into the USA commercial stock? I guess pretty much what occurred in South Africa. Within 12-18 months, beekeepers would report odd things in their colonies. On inspection, you will find large numbers of queenless colonies, often with lots of spotty WORKER brood. Will look like the brood of a very poor queen. There will be a lot of disturbance and fighting in these colonies, but almost no defensiveness. The bees causing the problems would generally be very black (almost uniformly), very shiny, very flighty and with extended abdomens. These laying worker colonies may persist for many months, but will eventually dwindle to nothing. Signs are often quite subtle and ambiguous, especially in the beginning. Parts can be interpreted as failing queens; or bad foulbrood infections; or robbing; or mild pesticide poisoning. And the bad news is that if it is in one colony in an apiary, then it is in all colonies in that apiary (but at different stages of infection). And if it is in one apiary of a commercial beekeeper, then it tends to be in all (because of they way bees are moved). And if it is one region, then it tends to be in all (because of migration). From what I know about USA commercial beekeeping (migrations & package bees), if it got started, it would spread like wildfire. Better not to get it started. regards Mike Allsopp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:08:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Re: soybean pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'Crop Pollination By Bees' by Delaplane and Mayer (CABI Publishing) has a chapter on soybeans. The authors report that self-pollination is the norm, before the flower is open. The benefits of bee pollination are inconclusive. Some work shows improved fruit-set and yield, but it varies greatly with locality and variety. It is reported that bees are rarely used for pollinating soybeans, but they may become more useful with the development of hybrid soybeans. Matthew J Allan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:55:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading the 'truck stop swarm" article, I remembered that I need a hose for my vacuum that is smooth on the inside. Does anyone know where to get these hoses? Lionel Evans Athens, AL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: soybean pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inger Lamb said: > I live in Iowa, USA, where we plant 11 million acres in > soybeans per year, almost a third of our total area. > I have read that some data indicate bees pollinate beans, > and in so doing increase yields, but apparently there is > some uncertainty about this. Can anyone fill me in? McGregor has a chapter on soybeans, you can read it online: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/book/chap4/soy.html It says, in part: The anthers dehisce before the flower opens so that the stigma is in contact with and receptive to the pollen on the anthers. Pollination and fertilization is usually accomplished before the flower opens. The soybean is considered to be self-fertile and not benefited by insect pollination (Morse and Cartter 1937, Rubis 1970). Although there is no experimental evidence to support them, some soybean growers in Arkansas have indicated that bees increase production of beans, and they encourage the presence of apiaries near their fields. Tests with plants caged to exclude bees have shown no decrease in production over exposed plots (Woodhouse and Taylor 1913, Milum 1940, Piper and Morse 1910). Culter (1934) obtained an estimated 5 percent cross-pollination in open plots surrounded by 36-inch cheesecloth fences with an apiary nearby. Gordienko (1960) used honey bees in cages with two cultivars of soybeans. He fed the bees a scented sirup to stimulate the floral visitation and obtained 29 percent hybrids on one cultivar and 44 percent on the other. I guess the bottom line is that soybeans may be an opportunity for a honey crop, but not for a pollination fee unless the grower feels the need for bees as "insurance". jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:38:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: ABC Evening News In-Reply-To: <3D1126DE.3050300@wi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:50 PM 6/19/02 -0500, you wrote: > I am not aware of any provisions in the Homeland Security >bills that impact honey production but then again There was the news report that 'Osama Bin Laden has been using a network of shops selling honey - a trade widespread in the Middle East - to raise money and smuggle contraband' http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1594000/1594143.stm Be prepared to have your honey house searched by the FBI :) -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:45:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Calendar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir or Madam: Please post the following: "Tracheal and Varroa mites are notorious killers of bees in New England. American Foulbrood disease is on the increase as dead hives are being robbed. Beekeepers must take timely steps to control these pests to SAVE THE BEES! Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, July 20, at the Paul Harlow Farm on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 = Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. The topics of discussion will be taking off and extracting honey, wax processing, treatment of = mites and foulbrood, and making propolis tincture. Bring a veil, if you have = one, as we shall be opening some colonies. To register by email: = lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056." Thank you, Charles Frederic Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Speaker, Eastern Apicultural Society Conference 2001, on Propolis and = Pollen Production NH/VT Apiary Inspector 1978-1989 POB 165, 18 McLean Road Walpole, NH 03608-0165 603-756-9056 home lindena@sover.net "Learn, experiment, innovate, educate!"=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:19:20 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 4. The best method is to use a bee vacuum but you can use a swarm box. If the bees are not to be saved, I'm wondering why you don't just use a garden sprayer with soapy water. The bees die instantly and there is no stinging, no need to climb, no disposal problem, and no bees left behind. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <007801c2193f$b1e67620$b3e5a1c6@notebook> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I can think of one good reason: the example it would set. People who saw you do it but who were unaware of the difference between your non-viable "truck stop" swarm and a real swarm might quit calling bee folks to salvage swarms. "Nuke 'em, Jack. It's what bee keepers do, I saw 'em do it once." Even though the public doesn't know the details, they seem to be aware that a swarm is something to be saved (and removed to a remote place.) On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Allen Dick wrote: > If the bees are not to be saved, I'm wondering why you don't just use a > garden sprayer with soapy water. The bees die instantly and there is no > stinging, no need to climb, no disposal problem, and no bees left behind. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Yarnell wrote: > > I can think of one good reason: the example it would set. People who saw > you do it but who were unaware of the difference between your non-viable > "truck stop" swarm and a real swarm might quit calling bee folks to > salvage swarms. >From a liability point of view, I am with Dick. It makes little sense preserving any bees. Plus just one stinging incident will erase every bit of good will toward beekeepers and bees. We have had several pollinator trucks overturn in Maine and forget trying to save one bee. They are immediately sprayed down. Not worth doing anything else when the public safety is involved. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me