From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:43:23 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EB049086 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sW010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0206D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 92703 Lines: 2213 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:46:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Richard Yarnell wrote: > > > > I can think of one good reason: the example it would set. People who saw you do it but who were unaware of the difference between your non-viable "truck stop" swarm and a real swarm might quit calling bee folks to salvage swarms. I go to the trouble for the reasons Richard stated above. I want to make people understand even bees have value. I explain about most of the feral bees are gone from parsitic mites. I would however use the method Allen suggested before risking getting hurt. A.I. Root sells an excellent video on using soapy water. I have shown the video to several fire departments in my area. I do not have a problem with working the truck stop swarm off a ladder as long as someone dependable is holding the ladder. Not the case in most cases so I prefer working off the truck roof. As the bees fall below on a non beekeeper holding the ladder for you as you dangle 20 feet up many helpers will desert the ladder duty aand leave you dangling. I speak from experience. Bill wrote: We have had several pollinator trucks overturn in Maine and forget > trying to save one bee. They are immediately sprayed down. Not worth doing anything else when the public safety is involved. And who should make the final decision to spray kill 30 to 40 thousand dollars worth of bees? Most times the load can be saved and uprighted with air bags. Many times the netting is intack. Letting a wrecker driver try to upright things with one wrecker or by running a cable over the top and pulling the cable through the bee hives are common *dumb ideas* usually pushed by an inexperienced police officer in charge. All migratory beekeepers would rather pay the extra fee to have the load uprighted properly (with air bags). Usually the public stays in their car and observes. Never gets a sting. The man in charge gets a close look and gets hell stung out of him (why wouldn't he ) and then decides the public will get stung if they do the dumb things he has done and decides to spray the load. Why walk up on a group of beekeepers in suits working a bee wreck unprotected. Duh! I admit there are times when spraying is the best solution but in my opinion MOST of the time the load can be worked without endangering the public safety. If you look at most truck bee wrecks the cause is from falling asleep or hitting the ditch to keep from hitting a four wheeler. Most happen in rural areas. I do not agree with Bill's "they are immediately sprayed down". I believe the public should be kept at a safe distance and Barney should put a veil on and the beekeeper given a opportunity to salvage his losses within a reasonable amount of time if only a minor risk to the public exists. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob: >A.I. Root sells an excellent video on using soapy water. What’s the name of the video? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:58:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: How to Accurately Identify Insects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to everyone on BEE-L, Not too long ago someone on the list had a question about a beetle that had invaded one of his hives. I recently came across a new, very sophisticated pattern recognition software that can help farmers, beekeepers, and entomologists accurately identify all sorts of insects. The software is called DAISY and is being developed by a British-American company called Morpho Inc. ( www.morpho-inc.com )You simply take a photograph of the insect you want to identify with a digital camera: DAISY then scans the image and compares it with images of already identified species stored in its database. If you wish to read a short article about DAISY, go to: www.bbc.co.uk/science/tw/items/010530_automaticinsectidentifier.shtml or http://chasseur.usc.edu/pups/projects/daisy.html which will tell you about DAISY in detail. A beekeeper using this software could accurately identify mites, moths, beetles, and bees in minutes. Apparently, this software can even scan an insect's wing! I thought it sounded like fun. Morpho's CEO is Dr. Stephen Buchmann, author of "The Forgotten Pollinators." For the record, I am not affiliated with this company in any way. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:00:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > I do not agree with Bill's "they are immediately sprayed down". > > I believe the public should be kept at a safe distance and Barney should > put a veil on and the beekeeper given a opportunity to salvage his losses > within a reasonable amount of time if only a minor risk to the public > exists. I was talking about an overturned commercial pollinator's truck. In a recent case one shut down I-95 for a short time and bees were all over. Made the papers, TV and radio. When one of these trucks go over, there is not much to salvage. I understand the desires of the owner, but public safety is much more important. In any case, it also allows some PR from the beekeepers on scene. Several were interviewed and the event became a plus for beekeeping not a minus. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Rogers Subject: When to medicate in the South As a new beekeeper, it can be overwhelming to try to fit everything in. We live in the northern Georgia mountains where the sourwood flow runs late June and July. We should have a good wildflower flow after that. We are at 2500 ft. elevation, so I was wondering when it was okay to do the fall medications. Thanks for your help. In Christ, TB Rogers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:47:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When we built our "swarm vac" the PVC pick-up pipe and a length of smooth-clear-flexable vinyl tube was readily available at our local Home Depot store. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping and Honey Production since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home' Alabama On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:55:05 EDT Lionel Evans writes: > ... I need a hose for my vacuum that is smooth on the inside. Does anyone know where to get these > hoses? > > Lionel Evans > Athens, AL > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:42:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Lionel. Re a smooth vacuum hose. I use a Sears shop vac with a homemade suction box and use the 2" hose to capture the bees. Sears sells 2" rigid 2' extensions and they are smooth inside. The short corrugated hose which connects the extensions to the suction box do not seem to cause the bees any harm. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: *The Truck Stop Swarm* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick and All, A.I. Root sells an excellent video on using soapy water. > What's the name of the video? I believe the name of the video is "Handling Honey Bee Emergencies" or something close. Kim Flottum felt a need for making the video in the early 90's to show fire departments the proper way to respond to Africanized bees. The Midwestern Beekeepers bought one of the first copies for our library. I was president then and used the video on several occasions to train local fire departments. The main purpose of the video was to train emergency response personal but the information is useful to all beekeepers. Every beekeeping club library should carry the video. The price was around $40 U.S. back then plus shipping. I am sure A.I.Root still sells the video. 1-800-289-7668 , ext. 3219 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:17:21 -0700 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carm Subject: Re: non-chemical fumigants In-Reply-To: <200206131118.g5DB08SY010467@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > A plant that you could burn in your smoker that > killed mites, now > there is something that we all could use! > Unfortunately, I don't know > what it is yet. I just think the idea holds > promise. > Doesn't tobacco do that? One bee supply company here in Ontario was selling it for that purpose. I don't belive it was the kind that was high enough in nicotine to smoke however. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:55:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: non-chemical fumigants Comments: To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > > A plant that you could burn in your smoker that > > killed mites, now > > there is something that we all could use! >Doesn't tobacco do that? Most beekeepers report that tobacco will knock mites off bees but has low kill power. Also grapefruit leaves were shown more effective than tobacco in the test results I looked at. Sadly both the above would help in IPM control but would not work by themselves. Breathing the smoke everyday as in a commercial setting would not be healthy in my opinion and costly if talking stocking the smoker with tobacco at today's prices. The most logical method (systemic control) I have touched on on BEE-L before but will take a step further. >From the start we asked the USDA for a systemic control (1987). For the few on the list not familiar with the word I will explain further. Systemic control is like the flea and tick medicine many people give to their pets. When the flea or tick ingests the blood from the animal it dies. The same principal is applied to my livestock with the product invermectin. THE PROBLEM WITH SYSTEMIC AND BEES as passed on to me indirectly by the company asked to register the systemic for bees. Unlike a 1200 pound cow and a tick, with bees you have got two insects which are close in size and similar in many ways. I was told a systemic has been found which would work BUT if not mixed properly would kill varroa and bees. They said if the product could be marketed already mixed then the risk would be slight in killing bees. If sold in concentrate (as most chemicals are) and left to be mixed by the beekeeper and too strong a mix due to not following label then the bees die also . Slang for pesticide is the word poison around apple growers. The systemic would be a poison. To low a mix and the varroa build resistance. To strong and dead bees and varroa. All systemic for pets is premixed for the above reason. Also the systemic for dogs is different for cats. Never mix the two. There are many beekeepers which could use the systemic without problems but there are others which would mix at times incorrectly and bad PR would come from those beekeepers swearing the product was mixed correctly and still the bees died. Those beekeepers would then sue the registering chemical company to pay for the dead hives. I was told a systemic product was coming several years ago by Dr. Shiminuki. Then rumors started floating around about the chemical company worried about the above. If there are those on BEE-L with updated information on a systemic please post as I and others on the list would be interested in current information. If the bee could live a normal life with a systemic without the bloodsucking varroa and the systemic cure was reasonable priced and could be simply applied when feeding syrup in the spring then the systemic might be what many are looking for. The person informing me said the systemic also worked for tracheal mites and had not been found to leave residues in honey or wax . The U.S.D.A. has a higher priority in finding a way to replace the feral swarms and so can not devote the time needed I have been told to search for the systemic. I might add I do not know the name of the systemic which is supposed to work. A very well kept secret as I have tried to find out without success. Any ideas on which chemical is the one researchers say would work? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: No Capensis in Arizona In-Reply-To: <3D12F45A.15551.38E5BA0A@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Mike Allsopp wrote: >From the USA point of view, the attitude should be the same in either event. In the first instance - keep out all capensis in case you get the "bad" one. In the second instance - keep out all capensis because they are all bad ones. Reply: So you are saying there are "good" capensis and "bad" capensis then. Why not use the good capensis to control the bad then? Could you explain the difference here between the two for better understanding? By the way, as I have posted here on BEE-L previously, I consider thelytoky a very good trait and a necessary part of a whole bee concept. I have seen no bad traits with our bees.I would also like to compare to what you call "good" traits, as there must a another side to the bad. Mike Allsopp also wrote: Then, to answer your question, what would happen if "bad" capensis got into the USA commercial stock? I guess pretty much what occurred in South Africa. Within 12-18 months, beekeepers would report odd things in their colonies. On inspection, you will find large numbers of queenless colonies, often with lots of spotty WORKER brood. Will look like the brood of a very poor queen. There will be a lot of disturbance and fighting in these colonies, but almost no defensiveness. The bees causing the problems would generally be very black (almost uniformly), very shiny, very flighty and with extended abdomens. These laying worker colonies may persist for many months, but will eventually dwindle to nothing. Reply: I know full well what shiny little black bees are and with wings longer then butts (are your wings longer also, by the way?), but I have seen none of the points you list above, for if I had we would not have been able to fight through varroa, bottoming out at 104 colonies and then build back up drawing combs, and colonies to about 700 now and holding good through one of the worst dryest droughts in the history of Arizona with fires all over the place. Yet we are taking honey now while others are not, our bees are staying in place without swarming and seem very fine in spite of things. Also just like grandpa did and Ed's dad did, I (we) supply our black stock both locally and to other western states and no one has ever seemed to have had a problem with it. Also it has been verified by DNA analysis (USDA) that our bees are like the bees of San Diego Calif similar to caucasians, but not caucasian or they would not be similar, what ever the USDA means by that! Certainly if the above was found in commercial lines there would have been a big public outcry by now, but there has been none. HOw did your "bad" traits override your "good" capenis traits in S. Africa? You talk about different periods of this happening before. How has the situation changed over the years? What is different now compared to earlier periods with your small black bees, that you cannot correct the situation now? Has migratory beekeeping anything to do with the situation? Has moderinization have anything to do with the situation? Mike Allsopp wrote: Signs are often quite subtle and ambiguous, especially in the beginning. Parts can be interpreted as failing queens; or bad foulbrood infections; or robbing; or mild pesticide poisoning. Reply: This I find strange! I would equate this to parasitic mites and accompanying secondary infections. Also change of internal structure of the broodnest. This leads me to think modernization may be playing a part in this, but I could be wrong. Mike Allsopp also wrote: And the bad news is that if it is in one colony in an apiary, then it is in all colonies in that apiary (but at different stages of infection). And if it is in one apiary of a commercial beekeeper, then it tends to be in all (because of they way bees are moved). And if it is one region, then it tends to be in all (because of migration). >From what I know about USA commercial beekeeping (migrations & package bees), if it got started, it would spread like wildfire. Better not to get it started. Reply: Knowing our bees and thelytoky and how we have worked them back up and are breeding again like in the 1980s again on same program, I would be more inclined to say the above parallels the spread of infections and parasitic mites and badly inbred bees. Certainly something to consider! Yet, we have bred through this problem of mites and don't believe in inbreeding. So something else must be going on in S. Africa. But you allude above to "bad" capenis traits, so there must be "good" ones, however, there seems to be few left in your area. Something major must have changed to cause this and I am very interested hear more from you. Very best regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:33:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jun 2002 to 23 Jun 2002 (#2002-171) In-Reply-To: <200206240403.g5O3r7SO026042@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear All To reply to the comments & questions of Dee Lusby: > So you are saying there are "good" capensis and "bad" > capensis then. > Could you explain the difference here between the two for > better understanding? I use these terms only with respect to the effect capensis have on other bee races; within the capensis population per se, they are all "good" capensis. That is, none of the "capensis problems" occur. With respect to other races, I am using the terms "good" and "bad" as follows: "Bad" capensis will cause takeovers, invasions and colony losses, as well as the workers producing by thelytoky. "Good" capensis will not cause the takeovers, invasions and colony losses, but the workers will produce by thelytoky. This is a "good" trait as it is a fail- safe for queen losses. Some researchers on the South African Capensis Problem believe there are indeed "good" and "bad" capensis, as described above. Others, including myself, believe that there are only "bad" capensis, to lesser or greater extent. That is, all capensis will cause the negative effects on populations of other races, but this will vary in extent. Hence, I consider it most likely that the thelytoky that is being seen in Arizona is non-capensis thelytoky. > HOw did your "bad" traits override your "good" capenis > traits in S. Africa? You talk about different periods of > this happening before. How has the situation changed over > the years? What is different now compared to earlier > periods with your small black bees, that you cannot correct > the situation now? I think what was different this time was that the "problem" was in commercial apiaries, while in all previous occasions in was only in research apiaries. As simple as that. On the previous occasions, when capensis problems became severe, the SINGLE affected research apiary and colonies in the vicinity were destroyed by the beekeeper/researcher - end of problem. This time, when it was first noticed, the capensis problems were in dozens if not hundreds of commercial apiaries, spread over hundreds of kilometres - and simply could not be contained. > This I find strange! I would equate this to parasitic mites > and accompanying secondary infections. Also change of When the capensis problem started, we did not have either tracheal or varroa mites in the country. These days, as you say, the brood of colonies in the latter stages of varroa infestation resembles the brood of capensis laying worker colonies. regards Mike Allsopp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:20:57 -0400 Reply-To: OhioBeeFarmer Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Honey Wanted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I receive a email request for honey see following: Name: Rachel Upole E-mail: Bbillycu2@aol.com Comments: I am interrested in purchasing honey in bulk (5gal) containers. I am from Northeastern Ohio, and I am looking for local beekeepers.Can you please e-mail me with any info you have. Thankyou OhioBeeFarmer Getting youth involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:24:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: systemic varroa control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob and Everyone, Bob asks about research work being done on systemic varroa treatments. Yes Bob work is continuing on a systemic that works for varroa control. I don't know if it works for tracheal mites but it does work for varroa. Proper dosing is being worked out so it is still in development but does look promising. It is currently being formulated as a candy and the problem is that very large colonies consume the candy too fast so the medication does not stay in the bees blood at a high enough level for the full time needed for good control. With smaller colonies which consume the candy more slowly it works well. So yes a systemic is being worked on. It looks pretty good but dosing issues are not completely worked out so research is ongoing. Right now this appears to me to be the treatment that is closest to being ready for beekeepers to use. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jun 2002 to 23 Jun 2002 (#2002-171) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike , Dee and All, > Hence, I consider it most likely that the thelytoky that is being seen in > Arizona is non-capensis thelytoky. Until I saw the slides of Dr. Hoffman, heard her presentation about pseudo queens in Arizona at the ABF convention in Savannah, asked her directly at the end of her presentation is she was refering to capensis traits (her answer was yes) and Dee came on BEE-L and said that the slides were of Dee's bees did I think the thelytoky Dees has talked about in her bees was anything to cause alarm. . Dee said those slides were old slides of her bees from the early 90's which may be but there is no doubt in my mind Dr. Hoffman was talking about a serious problem in her eyes and the labs eyes going on in Arizona TODAY. Maybe those slides from the past of Dees bees were the best to demonstrate the problem or possibly those were recent slides of bees with capensis traits I simply do not know without talking to Dr. Hoffman. I am glad you are looking into things Mike. On the previous occasions, when > capensis problems became severe, the SINGLE affected research > apiary and colonies in the vicinity were destroyed by the > beekeeper/researcher - end of problem. There is no doubt the same thing would be tried by the USDA in the case of the Arizona feral colonies. Trap feral colonies and destroy. Probbably will not work but past USDA history tells me they will try the above solution first. This time, when it was first > noticed, the capensis problems were in dozens if not hundreds of > commercial apiaries, spread over hundreds of kilometres - and simply > could not be contained. I suspect if capensis psuedo queens were found in the migratory bee operations the situation would be similar to the above scenario. Let us all hope Mike only finds thelyotky and not capensis traits and pseudo queens in Arizona. I do not want to see Dee have to put up with any extra hardship as her and Ed have had quite a struggle over the last decade. I must remind BEE-L Dees bees were never talked about by Dr. Hoffman in her Savannah talk as I recall. . Dee has added to our BEE-L discussion on her own trying to help us work through the things Dr. Hoffman said. Dr. Hoffman was speaking of capensis traits in the feral black bees of Arizona and those bees with pseudo queens being a serious threat to pollination if spread through commercial pollinators. The USDA needs to try and solve this capensis issue and soon in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:40:19 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Where's the Beef? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dr. Hoffman was speaking of capensis traits in the feral black bees of Arizona and those bees with pseudo queens being a serious threat to pollination if spread through commercial pollinators. Did anyone else attending the conference understand Dr. D-H to have said this in the way Bob is presenting it? Is there anything in the bee press about this? Has Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman made any public statements on the matter? allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Arne Haugaard Subject: Varroa Control with Copper Gluconat Hello , do any of you have experience with treating varroa mite with the substance Copper Gluconat(C12H22O14Cu) M.W. 453,8 14 % Cu). Please se attached links : http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/cuguse.html#top http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/cugluconate.html Best regards Arnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > > Dr. Hoffman was speaking of capensis traits in the feral black bees of Arizona and those bees with pseudo queens being a serious threat to > pollination if spread through commercial pollinators. Blane White attended the presentation and posted the above in a prior post on BEE-L and I am only saying what we both know was the *beef* of the presentaion. Dee *posted* the bees Dr. Hoffman was showing slides of were her bees but from an earlier date. Dee says those pseudo queens were in her bees ten years ago. Remember pure capensis exists fine with laying workers. The threat lies when a capensis trait worker enters a hive of another race. Blane White, Dave Hamilton , Glenn Davis and I believe Kim Flottum was in the room for part of the talk standing at the back but not certain Kim was during the whole meeting. Glenn Davis came in late. When I attended the ABF convention in Austin the Texas State bee inspector told us of pseudo queens the inspection service had been seeing. The Texas inspection service destroyed every swarm with AHB blood. Not in Arizona unless they cause a stinging problem. Arizona has no inspection service and rumor has it a certain beekeeper is catching AHB swarms and raising queens from those black queens . Such selective breeding would enhance the capensis traits . What does deregulated the Arizona bee inspection service mean? Why not do away with the whole U.S. inspection system? Would a bee inspection system in Arizona have prevented the problems we are seeing? How does Dee get by with shipping queens out of a state which Dr. Hoffmans says should be considered AHB? Why there is no inspection system! I could winter in Arizona and treat with illegal methods as there is no inspection service. A friend in Florida which I will not name was fined $10,000 for his misuse. Not in Arizona! No inspection service! Would be nice if we could call the Arizona bee inspector and see what he says. Sorry he does not exist in Arizona! The Bee lab only found the capensis traits problem while doing research on pollination. The bee lab only looks at the things it is doing research on. We have only got Dee's opinion on whats going on in her bees. I respect her opinion but maybe we should take a peek. Mike thinks we should. In fact Mike says he is going to look at Dee's bees. At least beekeepers from South Africa think the situation needs looking into . Is the USDA *asleep at the wheel*? Where's the Beef? If I end up with capensis traits in my bees I am going to be upset with the system( or lack of one). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:28:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Small Cell Colony Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Another four weeks has passed and the natural mite fall is still incredibly low with less than 2 mites per hive per week drop. The best hive dropped less than 1/4 mite per week. The worst hive dropped about 2 mites per week. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:58:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Honey Bee Stress & Management Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee writes: What we are doing that can be read by anyone can be found at: Bee Source Point of View, Lusby, Apiacta Article http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm Excerpts from her article and my comments: "It is a known fact that both honeybees and mites have been on this Earth and have co-existed for many millions of years." According to Mark Winston, *it is believed that* the Asian and Afro-European groups were separated between 2 and 3 million years ago by glaciers. Sometime after that, the Asian species were parasitized by varroa, and the more western species were not. It was not until these two groups were reunited by migratory beekeepers that varroa began to infest Apis mellifera. "it must be assumed that something done artificially to honeybee colonies during their domestication and management by man has created the problem of parasitic mites" Prior to the adoption of the modern beehive, bees were routinely *robbed* of their honey and frequently killed for it. If anything, in the past 100 years, beekeepers have been more conscious of honey bee health than ever before. Apart from migratory beekeepers who are constantly moving their bees and exposing them to spray, beekeepers are better stewards than their ancestors. "stress resulting from generally accepted beekeeping practices ... is the real killer of domesticated honeybee colonies." In my management of colonies, I have always strived to create the best conditions for their success. This May I had several yards where most of the hives filled three or four deep supers with new honey. These hives are not under stress. Yet we know full well that it is often the big colonies that are most heavily infested with mites by the end of the summer. So heavy mite infestation appears to correlate with colony success, rather than stress. "the therapeutic administration of natural key nutrients and natural sized brood comb foundation, sized to ones own beekeeping region" No mention is made of what these natural ingredients are. I never feed colonies during the active season because this area has a super-abundance of pollen and nectar sources. Some feeding may be done in fall to ensure adequate weight for the 5 or 6 month winter. As for sizing combs to one's own region, my measurements of natural comb indicate that the larger size is correct for our area. "it becomes possible to breed for bees with shorter development times as in aid in overcoming Varroa" A careful reading of this article will show that the theory is based primarily on the idea that honey bee cells were upsized in the 20th century, and must be "corrected." (This theory is full of holes and is contradicted by empirical evidence in Africa). A cursory reference to nutrition is made and some last minute comments on breeding bees with shorter development times (this hasn't panned out). Dee Lusby wrote this article ten years ago, and it is basically theoretical in nature. Her proof is limited to the fact that her bees are still alive. So far as I know, everyone on this list still has bees alive, so that proves nothing itself. How do her yields compare with others producers in her area? No evidence is ever provided that indicates that she has gotten anything other than survival of the fittest, which is worthy, but cannot be construed as proof of the technique. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:54:13 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: No Capensis in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...what would happen if "bad" capensis got into the USA commercial stock? I guess pretty much what occurred in South Africa. Within 12-18 months, beekeepers would report odd things in their colonies. On inspection, you will find large numbers of queenless colonies, often with lots of spotty WORKER brood. Will look like the brood of a very poor queen. In Lusbys colonies, we saw no queenless colonies in the 100 (approx) we looked into, and we were deliberately selecting colonies that externally looked 'different'. The worker brood patterns were SOLID. Much more than 12-18 months has passed since the thelytoky phenomena have first been observed. > There will be a lot of disturbance and fighting in these colonies, but almost no defensiveness. The colonies were reasonably defensive, and organised and calm. > The bees causing the problems would generally be very black (almost uniformly), very shiny, very flighty and with extended abdomens. Dee pointed out some black bees in particular , and declared them 'special' and necessary in a hive for the desirable characteristics she is seeking, but they had long wings, not long abdomens, as I recall. I also remember them as being small and a bit hairy-looking. > These laying worker colonies may persist for many months, but will eventually dwindle to nothing. We saw no signs of dwindling. We saw good brood, good organisation and good build-up. > Signs are often quite subtle and ambiguous, especially in the beginning. Parts can be interpreted as failing queens; or bad foulbrood infections; or robbing; or mild pesticide poisoning. We saw nothing like that. > And the bad news is that if it is in one colony in an apiary, then it is in all colonies in that apiary (but at different stages of infection). And if it is in one apiary of a commercial beekeeper, then it tends to be in all (because of they way bees are moved)... We inspected quite a few Lusby apiaries in different locations and saw none of the signs mentioned. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:37:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: Where's the beef? In-Reply-To: <200206250402.g5P3wbSM025294@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear All Bob Harrison comments: > The Bee lab only found the capensis traits problem while doing > research on pollination. The bee lab only looks at the things it is > doing research on. We have only got Dee's opinion on whats going on in > her bees. I respect her opinion but maybe we should take a peek. Mike > thinks we should. In fact Mike says he is going to look at Dee's bees. > At least beekeepers from South Africa think the situation needs > looking into . Is the USDA *asleep at the wheel*? In my initial post on the subject, I indicated that the planned research was very much a joint affair, with the USDA (Tucson - Dr Hoffman) as the lead figure. This collaboration stems from the Africanized bee conference in Tucson in 2000, and from the USDA believing that our (South African) experience with the Capensis Problem might help in understanding what is happening in Arizona. But rest assured, it is a USDA initiative, including the funding side of things. regards Mike Allsopp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:22:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen and Everyone, Allen asked in part: "Did anyone else attending the conference understand Dr. D-H to have said this in the way Bob is presenting it?" Yes. It was very clear from her presentation that colonies brought into that area for pollination resulted in significant colony takeovers by pseudo-queens. Resulting in conversion to africanized queens in those colonies. Her statement was that it was difficult to keep the colonies with european queens due to this behavior. This in fact what struck me as being so similar to the cape bee problem we have heard about in South Africa. Not saying it is the same thing but really sounds pretty similar and from a commercial pollinator standpoint would cause much disruption due to the conversion to AHB in so many of the colonies. One little foot note. At least it is currently illegal to move honey bees from AZ to most other states due to the lack of a inspection and certification program in AZ. Most states require that the colonies be inspected and certified as to disease status before they can be legally moved into the state. Not saying no bees move from AZ to other states just that most such movement is illegal. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.usbb ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where's the beef? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and All, Mike A. wrote: This collaboration stems from the Africanized bee > conference in Tucson in 2000, and from the USDA believing that our > (South African) experience with the Capensis Problem might help in > understanding what is happening in Arizona. But rest assured, it is a > USDA initiative, including the funding side of things. Thanks for the information Mike. I withdraw my comment about the USDA being *asleep at the wheel*. Apparently Dr. Hoffman has been planning for some time to get to the core of the problem! I think Mikes *WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ARIZONA* above explains my concern. BEE-L is small and only represents about a fourth of one percent by my estimate of the beekeepers in the U.S. but I believe enough interest has been raised on BEE-L judging from the private emails I have received that the whole issue is going to be looked at. I do not want to cause problems for the Lusbys and the Lusbys have said visitors are welcome. I believe visitors will be arriving soon. For the good of U.S. beekeeping let us take a close look at those bees in Arizona with capensis traits. Let me reinforce again about capensis from the things I have learned if applied to the Lusby outfit if the bees of the Lusbys were found to carry capensis traits. Capensis would thrive in the desert of Arizona. Reason why depopulating hives most likely would not work to solve the capensis trait problem. . Capensis is used for honey production in South Africa and most certainly could in Arizona. Although capensis typically is not a great honey producer capensis might even out produce other strains in an Arizona desert setting. . They are gentle to work with. They are black and not gray which is more typical of caucs than the black color. The long body hairs Allen speaks of is typical of caucs. I raised caucs for years and most were gray with long body hairs and only on rare occasions black but never shinny black. Drop one copper penny in the salt water reef tank at your local fish store and the whole tank dies unless the copper penny if found and removed. Drop one capensis worker in a hive of European bees and the whole hive can dwindle and die (Mike A. post). Each generation of capensis laying workers from the first start laying capensis eggs and the the European bees will eventually kill their own queen. One part of this discussion has been over *IF* the bees in Arizona are indeed capensis (raised by Allen Dick). The focus should be on getting rid of those bees which are showing the capensis pseudo queen traits whether capensis or not. I believe in the end capensis genes will be found to be the problem but only my hypothesis and certainly not proven yet or at least the information has not been released by the USDA yet. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:19:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the beef? In-Reply-To: <3D182BE7.6001.4D4784A9@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Mike Allsopp wrote: In my initial post on the subject, I indicated that the planned research was very much a joint affair, with the USDA (Tucson - Dr Hoffman) as the lead figure. This collaboration stems from the Africanized bee conference in Tucson in 2000, and from the USDA believing that our (South African) experience with the Capensis Problem might help in understanding what is happening in Arizona. But rest assured, it is a USDA initiative, including the funding side of things Reply: Interesting! But not to be disrespectful to Mike here, the situations in breeding and geography and transition zones for honeybees are quite different between S. Africa and S. Arizona and would be working with reverse conditions, as compared to working with same geographical setups with also known thelytoky in punic bees, & caucasian bees and more closely paralleling Europe as to breeding conditions and transitional zones. I see nothing to be gained in talking reverse breeding of black into yellow, vs our current yellow into black transitioning as like I said parallels Europe. I feel it would be better for the thelytoky to be understood to be talking with European personnel (i.e. Koeniger I think could probably relate better), but I could be wrong in my beliefs. Yet thelytoky is thelytoky and the S. African problem and it's need for help is understandable as it is somehow out of control, while I have never seen any problems here. Again one must remember that we with Dr Levin's help freely brought this information to the USDA on a technical exchange of information. It's too bad they never followed through in all the years. Also since grandpa and dad inter exchanged bees throughout the southwest and problems were never seen (also exchanged bees with Canada before borders closed) and we have done the same, I see no reason to "beef" now except for political money. A ploy by Bob for funding? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: bees@oldmoose.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen Glater Subject: used extractor? I'm looking for a used motorized extractor capable of extracting 6 shallow frames at a time. Any ideas? Respond directly to me rather than the list at mailto:bees@oldmoose.com Thanks. --glen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:28:09 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Where's the beef? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One part of this discussion has been over *IF* the bees in Arizona are > indeed capensis (raised by Allen Dick). The focus should be on getting rid > of those bees which are showing the capensis pseudo queen traits whether > capensis or not. Possibly, Bob, but I think there could be a huge legal problem here and that legal problem may have something to do very directly with withdrawal of funding and closing of bee labs. Interestingly the one lab that is not AFAIK in jeopardy is in what has been designated as AHB territory. Most of the people involved are *very* careful what they say and prudently stick to the facts -- and are also very careful not to stretch them. What are the facts? As far as I know, the facts are that bees are constantly moved back and forth throughout the entire United States. At present, some unusual behaviours have been identified as part of a phenomenon that we have known about all along. That phenomenon is the problem of maintaining 'European' queens in hives in most areas where 'AHB' have moved in. At one time the focus was on drone behaviour. Now the focus seems to have moved to unique racial pheromones, invasion episodes, and laying worker activity. All this is currently under study. At present, AFAIK, there is still a lot to learn about both 'EHB' and 'AHB' in that regard and definite conclusions have not been drawn. Obviously, since this phenomenon is not at all new in Central or North America, it is not reasonable to perceive it as an immanent threat. It may be a nuisance and it may be a problem for those wishing to breed other strains of bees than those favoured with these traits, but thelytoky in particular may prove to be a beneficial trait that reduces the labour and difficulty of some types of beekeeping. As far as I know, no dwindling of hives taken over by 'AHB' in the USA has been reported, although in the early stages of invasion in Central America there were reports that colonies seldom achieved much size after being taken over by AHB due to excessive swarming. What I mostly heard in Central Arizona was that the temper of the bees became unpredictable after takeover by 'AHB'. As one beekeeper told me in Central AZ, they had to move some yards out and kill them after a period of time of AHB exposure. What will happen after a period of adjustment between the migrating bees and the 'EHB' that are currently favoured is difficult to say. Perhaps the bees will settle down and some selection will take place. If Lusbys' experience is indicative, I tend to think that the problems may be exaggerated, BUT, I was only there once -- and in January -- so I can't claim expert status on the problem by any means. At any rate I am mostly concerned about BEE-L being used as a vehicle for alarmist and provocative pronouncements, and I hope that discussion will stick close to the facts, that more facts will be brought to light, and that supporting information will also be contributed. Since no one has provided anything other than hearsay to favour the capensis conjecture -- in spite of several requests to do so -- and no one else will go to the horse's mouth -- I have today written Dr. D-H to ask if she wishes to confirm any of the charges made earlier on this list. It will be interesting to see if she chooses to confirm these speculations, or to ignore them. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: calibration of refractometers In-Reply-To: <200206250402.g5P3wbSM025294@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just purchased a new refractometer, and was surprised that no calibration fluid was included. The instructions call for calibration with distilled water, but the scales don't go to 100% water / 0% sugar. So does anyone have a simple formula for mixing sugar with distilled water to come up with a standardized percentage - effectively home made calibration fluid? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: calibration of refractometers Les, with the dozens, perhaps hundreds that I've used with table grapes, watermellon, etc.. if you clean the two plates well with distilled water, then place a drop or two of distilled water onto the receiving plate you will, if you look towards light, see the "O" callibration. Simply move the marker to this. Perhaps you'll see the difference as blue and white, or perhaps another color. Blue representing sugar is what I've always seen. Contact me at tvaughan@charter.net anytime. Best Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: calibration of refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Les and All, I never heard of a new refractometer sent without calibration fluid. I use my state fair entry as calibration fluid. When I get the entry back I mark the moisture content from the judging sheet on the top of the jar. I keep the jar in the honey house so the temperature is the same as the honey I am checking. I have still got a almost full jar of calibration fluid which came with the atago refractometer. A replacement jar is $75 U.S.. I find my method works as good as using the calibration fluid. I check my moisture calibration so often I would use a half bottle a season. Ask around your bee club. I will bet there is a jar of fair show honey with the correct moisture printed on the judging sheet free for the asking. If not take a jar of your honey to a person with a refractometer and mark the moisture content on the jar. Use in place of the calibration fluid. Many of my friends put wet honey in drums. I never do. I keep checking till the moisture is right before extracting. I like to bottle honey in the middle 17% range. 18.6% looks a little watery on a 90 degree market day. In preparation for the small hive beetle I am getting my honey processing area insulated with new type spray in foam next week. Even with commercial dehumidifiers honey supers were taking to long to dry out last year. My insulator says I should be able to reduce drying time by two thirds with his product. I hate to spend the money but one lost honey house full of supers to small hive beetle would pay for the foam. I had regular fiberglass insulation before. The honey processing area will now become like the inside of a cooler so pulling the moisture out will be much faster or so my insulator says. I plan to start bringing in less supers and getting those out faster. I have not found small hive beetle in my hives yet but others in the area have found shb in their hives so I figure its a only a matter of time. My friends think I am wasting my money. Last year I brought in around 250 supers before extracting. If those supers only held 30 pounds of honey and the honey was only worth the .60 U.S. the government says the loan value is we are still talking 4,500 U.S. worth of honey to get slimed. What about super wax damage? Time spent renewing those slimed supers? New foundation? Why wait to get slimed before changing the way you process honey? I have had supers sit 3-4 weeks in the honey house before. Had a little wax moth damage but the small hive beetle is different. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:31:04 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Where's the beef? Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen is trying to quietly *kill* the messengers. Shame on you, Bob. This is not about personality. This is all about acting responsibly. I am a moderator of this list and as such my intent is simply to see that no one person or group hijacks BEE-L or abuses the list by any means, including by posting charges which cannot be substantiated. My interest in this is in seeking and maintaining reasonable objectivity on the list. If you think for a moment, you will realise that this latest and provocative personal charge quoted above does not make sense. This Arizona matter does not affect me personally, since I am a Canadian. All these bees are far from me, and separated from me by a border with an embargo against importation. Perhaps you think that because I recently examined the Lusby bees and had an article published about my observations, that I am on that 'side'. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, in this and most other such matters there are no sides, except the side of careful, objective consideration, and the side of snap judgements, and passionate, blind conviction. I'm not on 'Dee's side' or 'Bob's side'. I'm just interested in the objective, unvarnished and unspun truth. If what you have claimed can be supported in full, that makes your input very interesting and worthy of discussion. If on the other hand, your claims are exaggerations and misinterpretations, then we need to know. You have been repeatedly asked to provide any credible documentation for your serious charges and have refused to take any effort to do so, but rather have just repeated and even expanded them. Therefore, since you cannot -- or will not -- prove your claims, I have approached the authority you claim to be quoting, to see if there is any support there for your understanding or if you are stretching the thing beyond what is reasonable. If there is a response -- and I am not sure that if I were being used as Dr. D-H is being used here that I would respond -- I will share it with the list, assuming that response is sent to me and not the list as a whole. As for any correspondance I might have with any of the scientists involved beyond statements provided for release, that is NOYB. I try to be discreet. If there is any credibility to your interpretation, Bob, we will all thank you. If not, then you may have to apologise. Again. In the meantime, I hope to read no more wild conjecture on the topic or personal attacks on members here on BEE-L. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: calibration of refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just purchased a new refractometer, and was surprised that > no calibration fluid was included. Take it, a pocketknife, and an sterilized eyedropper to your local hospital, and ask the floor nurse in recovery for some used-up glucose solution IV bags to use as a "poor-man's calibration fluid". If you explain what you are doing, and why, they will likely dig a few up for you. Slit open the bag(s) with the knife, use the eyedropper to suck up droplets that remain, and put a drop on the refractometer. (Don't touch with your fingers.) The bags should indicate the percentage glucose, and these are made to very tight standards, much tighter than you could hope to approach with a home-brew mix. ...and in August, bring it to EAS, and calibrate with the Honey Show judges, or ask Ann Harmon to check your calibration. I think she was born with a refractometer in one hand. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:39:02 -0600 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes. It was very clear from her presentation that colonies brought into > that area for pollination resulted in significant colony takeovers by > pseudo-queens. Resulting in conversion to africanized queens in those > colonies. Her statement was that it was difficult to keep the colonies > with european queens due to this behavior. Exactly. That is precisely my understanding too, and, this is as far as I heard Dr. D-H take the matter. There were consistent references to African or Africanised queens and workers and pseudo queens in the talk I heard. There was no talk about capensis queens. There was talk and illustrations showing the unique AHB queen pheromone profile. Any talk about dwindling and any direct comparison to the serious troubles in South Africa seem to me to be associative leaps made by listeners and not part of what she said. Correct me if I am wrong. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:24:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: truth about thelytoky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Allen Dick recently said... > Perhaps you think that because I recently examined the Lusby > bees and had an article published about my observations, that > I am on that 'side'. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, in this and > most other such matters there are no sides, except the side of > careful, objective consideration, and the side of snap judgements, > and passionate, blind conviction. I'm not on 'Dee's side' or > 'Bob's side'. I'm just interested in the objective, unvarnished and > unspun truth. Whilst I can be passionate in holding certain opinions, I do not consider they are blind conviction. I too am interested in the objective, unvarnished and unspun truth. I think in this instance the thelytoky being so hotly debated is much more prevelent in bees of all strains or races of bees, than has been hitherto noticed... Probably because it has not been sought. By all means leave out the name calling and 'who' said 'what', but let us carry on the discussion on thelytoky, anarchistic behaviour, worker policing and other directly related topics. Yes, there is a 'special case' in some capensis invasions, but it is just that... 'a special case', capensis does not typify thelytokyous behavior. That is not to say that it is harmless either. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where's the beef? Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: All these bees are far from me, and separated from me by a border with an embargo against importation. Many thought the same about the release in Brazil in 1957. Time is on your side and possibly climate but I would not count on border and embargo for protection. Perhaps you think that because I recently examined the Lusby > bees and had an article published about my observations, that I am on that 'side'. I never thought you were on any side and found the article well written and interesting. I'm just interested in the objective, unvarnished and > unspun truth. Without a closer look at what is going on in Arizona we will never get to the bottom of the issue. As a small orchard owner I never forget the time I was called to a friends house to tell him why his fruit tree was losing all its leaves. When we took a close look the tree was crawling with catapillers. Too late to save the leaves and the problem could have been stopped quickly if he had walked up for a closer observation instead of only looking at the tree from his kitchen window. You took a close look at the Lusby bees and saw no problems. I respect your opinion but not the inspection I would like to see. > If what you have claimed can be supported in full, that makes your input very interesting and worthy of discussion. If on the other hand, your claims are exaggerations and misinterpretations, then we need to know. I would like to find out if the scope of the problem is smaller than I understood it to be. I welcome Dr. Hoffmans input. Pseudo queens have been reported in Texas since the AHB arrived but on a smaller scale. Even if the pseudo queen problem is small now over the next decade the problem could get serious. Let us look at the problem now and take steps to correct the problem if we can. Or at least understand the problem better. > You have been repeatedly asked to provide any credible documentation for your serious charges and have refused to take any effort to do so, but rather have just repeated and even expanded them. I am working long hours like you are and my time is limited. I find typing away on BEE-L about my only free time. I should have tried to contact Dr. Hoffman but figured with Blane coming forward and saying what I was the question of what Dr. Hoffman said was over. Blane warned me not to try to link capensis traits with capensis genes which I did . Dr. Hoffman never said capensis genes only capensis traits. The link was only hypothesis by me. I accept full blame for the connection . Genes are the building blocks of bees. It seems logical to me that a bee with the laying worker traits of capensis when we know capensis is the only bee in the world with such that capensis type genes cause such developement. (Dr. Kerr) Blane had the courage to stand up with me and say from the Hoffman talk in Savannah he got the same impression I did. Maybe we did misunderstand her but I do not think so. As for any correspondance I might have with any of the > scientists involved beyond statements provided for release, that is NOYB. I take NOYB to mean "none of yo beeswax" >I try to be discreet. I hope I do not regret letting you approach Dr. Hoffman instead of Blane or I. > If there is any credibility to your interpretation, Bob, we will all thank > you. If not, then you may have to apologise. Apologize for what. I know what I heard . I saw the slides. I heard her assessment of the situation. You heard Mike A. saying the USDA made plans to look at the problem in the year 2000. I am not backing off my position. So far nothing you or Dee has provided to the discussion have changed my opinion of the situation. I do hope to connect in about fifteen minutes with a well known researcher by phone for a private discussion about my suspicions. Go over the whole problem and get his input. I never thought the researcher would agree to talk to me but he did. I believe Dr. Hoffman will respond back. Bob Ps. I find it curious that Beltsville (does most the testing for beekeepers) and Baton Rouge (home of the SMR project) could not keep funding but a bee lab in AHB area keeps its and a grant is given to Cornell for AHB research. A excellent point raised in the discussion by Allen! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: > There was no talk about capensis queens. Allen is correct. The word capensis was carefully avoided until I asked the first question of her in the question part after the talk. I wanted to be sure Dr. Hoffman was referring to capensis like traits. She said yes. >From the slides these bees looked like capensis. Not yellow like scuts. I left the talk concerned. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:53:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: importance of honeybee pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been reading some internet info about honeybee pollination, and = in the process discovered some people in the U.S. are using native bees = in increase pollination in some crops. Some questions: Is use of native bees for pollination common? Is there concern that beekeepers are affecting the native bee = populations negatively by "supporting" non-native honeybee population? I had thought that the different parasites attacking (non-native) = honeybees in the U.S. in the past few decades had decimated our native = bee populations also. The statistics I found in different websites are = either vague or don't seem to back this concept. Can anyone tell me = specific info or lead me to links discussing native bee populations? Thanks! Inger Lamb Iowa, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: importance of honeybee pollination Have you tried the tomato people? The guy who sells tomatoes next to me at the farmer's market uses Bumblebees. He buys a couple hives every year of a species native to the American east, and because we're in California, there is a built in queen excluder required by law to keep her from escaping. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: importance of honeybee pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Inger and All, >Is use of native bees for pollination common? no. Alfalfa leaf cutter bee use is possibly the biggest pollination use for solitary bees. I am the only beekeeper in our area which keeps solitary bees. I raise Osmia lignaria. >Is there concern that beekeepers are affecting the native bee >populations negatively by "supporting" non-native honeybee population? I do not see this as a problem. I suppose if native bees which forage out a few hundred feet from the nest were placed near a area of a huge number of hives then the native bee might suffer. >I had thought that the different parasites attacking (non-native) >honeybees in the U.S. in the past few decades had decimated our >native bee populations also. Parasites effect solitary bees but the two main parasites (varroa and tracheal mites) of honey bees do not I have been told by the USDA lab in Utah. Parasites causes problems in Osmia lignaria while the bee is maturing in the cell. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Honey Bee Stress & Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > > > "stress resulting from generally accepted beekeeping practices ... is > the real killer of domesticated honeybee colonies." > > Hello Peter and All, Stress has a negative affect on everything. Stress caused by moving bees will cause Varroa infested hives to die rapidly. About 6 years ago I put a post here about 30 hives I moved from the mountains down home and were dead in two weeks. The hives I still had in the same location in the mountains had Varroa but were alive. At that time I stated that the bees died from a stronger pathogen than just weak bees. Three years later it was published that Varroa vectored 3 virus. Stress will lower resistance to desease. Some beekeepers bang around in a hive as if they own the place. Its the bees home and they want to keep it under there control. We need to slow down and observe . I look at how the bees stand and move on the comb. The sound of a hive will tell you a lot. That is why we have been doing some sound work in a hive. Much more complicated than I ever imagined going into the project. Look at what they are trying to do in the box. If you keep changing what they want to do with your hands , it will be a never ending battle. If you keep getting bur comb between the box's , you have a space problem that the bees are trying to fix. Slow down and look , the bees will show you the way. Observation is your best tool.. I will be pulling honey today. That will cause some problems in my yards. Some hives are 7 high now and I have to get them down to 4 . So I'm faced with doing what I have to do and what the bees want.The bees would like me to stay in bed today. Plenty of stress today, even for me. Best Regards Roy > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:41:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: calibration of refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I worked in the soft drink industry a number of years ago and refractometers were the stanard for measuring the brix (percent solids) in a sugar solution. Check to insure the instrument reads "0" with distilled water. That is all you should have to do. Check several times before adjusting the instrument to "0" with the calibration screw. If you have access to some HFCS 55(High Fructose Corn Syrup that is 55% solids) check with that to inusre the scale reads around 55-there is always some variation in tenths of a percent above or below the 55. Also, when your eye is at the eyepiece have the insturment pointing at a downward angle not up toward the light. The light must go through the cover over the prism to get a good and accurate reading. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:05:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: importance of honeybee pollination In-Reply-To: <002c01c21d10$6d357f60$037ed80c@mchsi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <002c01c21d10$6d357f60$037ed80c@mchsi.com>, Inger Lamb writes >Is use of native bees for pollination common? Try http://pollinator.com/ Dave Green's site and follow fascinating links around the world. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gordon Zahorik Subject: New York - Honey Hi, I work in New York city and have a fellow worker with alergies that would like to obtain honey gathered locally. Apparently it helps because it contains local pollens etc. If there is a bee keeper in Manhattan that is willing to sell locally gathered honey could you please respond and I'll let Matt know. Thank you Gordon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:46:35 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Bee Stress & Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy: This note of yours which refers to sound, reminds me of a tip I received from an older beekeeper when I got my first hives. Take off your watch before you approach them. It is surprising how that simple bit of courtesy for their home will pay off in quieter bees! Now that I have an allergy to beesting, I have , after some 20 years of pleasure, given up the active part of beekeeping. Summer sees my epipen travelling with me, fortunately I have not had to use it. I really enjoy these posts. One of the great parts of beekeeping is the fellowship among beekeepers. All the best, Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:19:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Honey Bee Stress & Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice Wonnacott wrote: > Roy: > . > Take off your watch before you approach them. It is surprising how > that simple bit of courtesy for their home will pay off in quieter bees! > > I really enjoy these posts. One of the great parts of beekeeping is the > fellowship among beekeepers. > > Hello Eunice and All, I found that one should be in an open state of mind and calm. Today was too much shake rattle and roll. Pulling honey is a little hard on the bees. It was warm 80 F + and a major flow is on right now. So it could have been worse on the bees. I wound up doing more beekeeping than pulling honey. Bees all over the front of there hives. I gave them more air and room. Pulled queen cells. So a 2 hour job lasted 5 hours. You have to do what they need. That's the bottom line. I think all real beekeepers love what they do. Some beehavers think it is just book work to gain knowledge. I know Dee knows what She is doing. Some can not be explained. I doubt that there is any one thing that is going on with Her bees. Some people want it explained in Black and white.. Sorry , beekeeping is an art also. It comes from the other side of the human brain. So see what works for you and take as much input as possible. This is a good place to get knowledge. I should say, ideas. When it comes to bees, the water is very deep and you can't see the bottom. That is why so much of this is opinion. Beekeepers are wonderful people. They have to understand a lot about nature. Its not a lego set , where everything fits. Best Regards Roy > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 05:47:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Re: New York - Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try keyword search local honey, should yield local honey suppliers. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:21:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: rudolf_bohm Subject: Is there anyone here who can send me 100 bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All I am a researcher at Children's Hospital (Boston) working on the Bee Venom Toxin, a lipase that can cause severe allergic responses in children. Presently, I would like to obtain a cDNA for this gene. For this purpose, I would need only about 100 bees (apis melliflora) to extract the RNA. Is there anyone on this list who could help? I would be grateful for any help. Sincerely, Rudolf Bohm -- Rudolf A. Bohm, PhD Div. of Neuroscience, Children's Hospital and Dept. of Neurobiology, Harvard Medical School Lab of Thomas L. Schwarz, PhD 300 Longwood Ave., EN211 Boston, MA 02115 617-355-5784 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 06:55:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: AHB research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bob writes: >Ps. I find it curious that Beltsville (does most the testing for beekeepers) >and Baton Rouge (home of the SMR project) could not keep funding but a bee >lab in AHB area keeps its and a grant is given to Cornell for AHB research. >A excellent point raised in the discussion by Allen! The above statement contains at least one error: The grant was not given to Cornell for AHB research. The idea is to develop non-AHB stock for distribution. see: http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicles/1.17.02/honeybee_center.html >Cornell will be the home for a new Honeybee Genetics and Integrated >Pest Management Center that will study the continuing threat from >deadly parasitic mites and Africanized honeybees. > >Because the breeding populations will be maintained using >closed-mating technology, they will be kept free of Africanized >honeybee genes, thereby providing an unadulterated source for >commercial queen and package producers. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:35:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: New York - Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon; Connect to: http://www.honeylocator.com/ Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping and Honey Production since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home' Alabama On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:39:22 -0400 Gordon Zahorik writes: > > I work in New York city and would like to obtain honey gathered locally... > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:13:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: rudolf_bohm Subject: Overwhelming response Overwhelming response to request for bees Message-ID: <3D0C2189@webmail.med.harvard.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.62 Thank you bee community, After getting no response from my local Agriculture Dept., I was surprised to get so many kind offers from all over the nation. At this point I think I have sufficient offers for bees and will try those that have contacted me living closest to Boston. Again, thank you. Rudi -- Rudolf A. Bohm, PhD Div. of Neuroscience, Children's Hospital and Dept. of Neurobiology, Harvard Medical School Lab of Thomas L. Schwarz, PhD 300 Longwood Ave., EN211 Boston, MA 02115 617-355-5784 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AHB research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: >> I find it curious that Beltsville (does most the testing for beekeepers) >> and Baton Rouge (home of the SMR project) could not keep funding but a bee >> lab in AHB area keeps its and a grant is given to Cornell for AHB research. ...and Peter Borst said: > The above statement contains at least one error: > The grant was not given to Cornell for AHB research. > The idea is to develop non-AHB stock for distribution. ...and the grant is not ALL going to Cornell. Read the press release cited by Peter: "The director is Nicholas W. Calderone, Cornell assistant professor of entomology, and he is assisted by project scientists Walter S. Sheppard of Washington State University in Pullman and Jeff Pettis of the USDA-Agricultural Research Service, Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville, Md. Other supporters of the program include the USDA Sustainable Research and Agricultural Education program, the USDA Northeast Integrated Pest Management program, the New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets and the Organic Farming and Research Foundation." This is exactly the sort of interaction between the extension, university, and Federal people that we should be happy to see. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:11:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Dropped queen cell frame/Hopkins - Case method In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I asked> what is the Hopkins Case method? And Aaron was kind enough to respond: "A graftless method of raising queens. See: http://beesource.com/pov/hayes/abjmay91.htm " Hi Aaron and all you digital beekeeping mentors. I'd like to reconnect to a discussion we had a while ago. I read this document about the Hopkins method and it's really interesting. As a matter of fact, i had heard of this method from an old beekeeper over here, but i had forgotten about it. Are any of you using this method? I have a couple of questions: -How do you place a whole frame horizontally in the hive. I assume this requires some sort of extra gadget..? -Do you have to place the frame in the middle of the hive (between brood boxes and supers), or will this work just as well in the top part of the hive? -What happens with the upper part of the horizontal frame? Do the bees remove the larva there? -Don't you get a lot of burr comb around the cells? -Why do you remove the cells right after they're capped and not the day before they hatch? -When you remove a frame with this many cells, of course it takes a while to cut them all out and go around and place them in all those colonies. How do you store the cut out cells during this time to make sure there is no temperature och motion related damage to them? -When the bees build comb on a queen cell, is the cell still OK if i cut away the unwanted wax? Oh, by the way, i said i'd update you on the dropped queen cell frame of mine. The eight queen cells on the frame that i dropped resulted in one single queen. All the other cells contained nothing (they were still capped and looked fine) or a little dead larva. However, i am not sure dropping the frame was the problem. I have tried to raise queens for three consecutive summers with the same results in many cases - plenty of cells, but only an undeveloped larva inside them. I follow the instructions from a book that i have and what i've found on the net, but i have no clue why this happens. Any suggestions? I suspect i am doing something wrong when i transfer the one-day-old larva to the feeder colony. I use the Jenter system, so there really isn't much that can go wrong... /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden