From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:43:36 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.6 required=2.4 tests=AWL,BODY_ENHANCEMENT2, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6B749088 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sY010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0207A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 58615 Lines: 1375 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:45:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Drone laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Help. This is my first year of bee-keeping. On going through my hive 4 weeks ago I found drone brood above the queen excluder in the supers, no eggs and a small amount of sealed and unsealed worker brood in the brood chamber and no queen cells. I requeened it and put in some frames of brood, but there is no sign of new worker brood or eggs and I can't see the queen. There are scattered drone cells in the brood chamber and I guess I have drone laying workers. I took a small swarm or cast 2 weeks ago from a farm 7 miles away. My plan is to move the hive containing this swarm to the site of the old hive, move the old colony ½ mile away and shake off the bees so that they fly back to the new hive, leaving the drone laying workers. If I do this will the new queen (and colony) be accepted by the old colony which is much larger or will I lose everything? ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:03:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Drone laying workers In-Reply-To: <015AD2AB387CD5119E830002A55CCF6E12B655@notus.lothian.scot. nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 11:45 AM 7/1/02 +0100, you wrote: >I requeened it and put in some frames of brood, but there is >no sign of new worker brood or eggs and I can't see the queen. They probably simply didn't except the queen. Queen introduction is simply less successful in large colonies, colonies with more older bees (which you probably have), etc. > My plan is to move the hive containing this swarm to the site of the old > hive, move >the old colony ½ mile away and shake off the bees so that they fly back to >the new hive, leaving the drone laying workers. Drone laying workers can fly. They even have been observed laying eggs between foraging runs. I've personally observed a laying working in a perfectly healthy new colony with a new queen, good brood pattern, etc. So my personal opinion, though many books say the opposite, is that shaking out all the workers is a big waste of time, and you will likely loose the young workers which make queen introduction easier and which will be vital in keeping the colony alive in several weeks time when all the older workers have died. I personally would try requeening again, adding some eggs and brood from the other colony, or simply combining the two. Which one would depend on availability of a queen, brood, strength of the hive (has it already dwindled too far) -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Swarm cells/New Hive In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701092519.02cd9ec0@192.168.42.8> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ten weeks ago today (July 1st) I hived a three pound package of Buckfast bees on foundation only. I have continued to feed sugar syrup and the bees have drawn out 27 frames on foundation in three deep supers. I have one shallow super of foundation which the bees are only starting to work. One deep super is partially capped honey on nine frames. The other two deep supers are both brood and partially capped honey. Today, I noted four swarm cells on the bottom of one frame, also one queen cell drawn out close to the top of one frame. One queen cell had an opening in the side, the larva was dead. There was capped brood and larvae in the hive. Is this a case of supersedure in this hive (the original queen was marked and clipped)? Would one normally see supersedure cells and swarm cells or is there any difference. Would a hive supercede their queen and also swarm? I destroyed the queen cells that I had seen, but i assume this to be a fruitless effort. Is it common for a newly hived package of bees to swarm the first season? Or are swarm cells sometimes made and no swarms come forth? Any assistance would be appreciated. Gerald Herrin Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:59:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Maxant hive scale In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701092519.02cd9ec0@192.168.42.8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anybody seen in person. or better yet used, a Maxant hive scale? Are they any7 good? (I've been wanting to put a hive or two on scales, but have not yet found an affordable solution.) Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:53:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Spagnolo Subject: Maxant Hive Scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had one of these scales for 7 years and I love it. I wish I had one for each and every beeyard, but they are rather expensive. The scale is well constructed, easy to assemble and very durable. I like to put mine on an easily visible hive so I can drive into the yard and see the scale. I recommend them. Mark in Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:15:23 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Maxant hive scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank said: > (I've been wanting to put a hive or two on scales, but have not yet > found an affordable solution.) I've yet to see the Maxant scale, but if you want affordable, you can make a bottom board with 2 slats across the bottom, positioned to be equidistant from the centerline of a $8.95 bathroom scale. Where you would put your feet is where the slats want to be. You need a firm platform for the scale to sit upon, and cleats to keep the scale from sliding on its base, and cleats on the aforementioned slats to encourage correct alignment. Directly above the scale needle, one wants a mirror at a 45-degree angle to the horizon so you can read the weight from the back of the hive. The numbers will be backwards and upside down, but you'll get the hang of it. I tried this a few seasons ago, and one drawback is that the springs in the scale will corrode no matter what you do, and as a result, the readings are nothing more than a relative indication of weight gain/loss. This is not a very big problem, unless you want more than a general idea of "loss versus gain". Other problems include: a) The space under the bottom board makes a fine home for small mammals. b) A flashlight is required to see the scale reading. c) The hive may develop a slight list to one side. The springs in most cheap scales I have seen are independent, and one side can become more compressed that the other if the weight in the hive is uneven. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:31:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Funeral- Charles H. Robson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is a notice to BEE-L I have been calling around our S. Arizona Beekeepers Assoc to let members know that Charles H. Robson, died on Friday 28 June 2002, and funeral services will be on Wednesday in wickenburg, Arizona at 10AM at the First Baptist Church. Figured I'd let members on BEE-L list also know, since Charlie Robson was well known by many across the United States, etc. Charlie was the owner of Robson Honey and held patents on a pollen collector, propolis collector, venom collector. Charlie also wrote Seven Health Secrets from the Hive, and was also a large processor and purchaser of honeybee pollen. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby - Pres. Southern Arizona Beekeepers Assoc. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:38:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Maxant hive scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frank, I, too, am delighted with my Maxant scale which I have used for many years. One problem is that it is not very stable on its long, soft springs. It has to be balanced with shims to sit vertically and, when it is high and top-heavy, braced with 2x4's. If you buy one, email me privately and I'll tell you a little trick. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:39:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarm cells/New Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gerald, usually when I find swarm cells in a hive, and I very often do in the first half of the season, I also find "supercedure" cells, too. I, too, wonder if there really is any difference. They are often spoke of as if they are different but I have never read a technical paper which demonstdrated that such was so. A friend had her four pound package swarm a couple of weeks ago. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:36:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Drone layers After moving and dividing some hives several months ago, I finally got around to checking through the brood chambers and found a number of Drone laying hives. To two hives I added nucs with queens directly into the hives with lots of smoke. One nuc was 2 frames and the other 3, and after 35 days both hives were fine and I saw both queens. To three hives I added one frame of brood with a queen cell and after 35 days two had nice young queens with sealed brood. The other had no queen or brood and isn't worth trying to save. Regards to the list Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 07:30:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Drone laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tim Alheit wrote: "I personally would try requeening again, adding some eggs and brood from the other colony, or simply combining the two. Which one would depend on availability of a queen, brood, strength of the hive..." I have a few colonies that swarmed earlier this summer. Yesterday, i found that three of them have only drone brood. I must have been lucky, because this never happened to me before (five years of beekeeping), but i was kinda happy anyway, because i get to learn something new. So i wonder, Tim or anyone else, will a colony like this make queens if they get a frame of eggs or larvae in the right age from a colony that is queenright? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 07:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Rogers Subject: N. Ga. beekeepers I'm looking for beekeepers in the north Georgia area, preferably the mountains. If you are one of those, or know someone, please respond or email privately. Thanks, David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: fermented hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeps, Maybe you can answer a question about a problem I am having for the first time. I have in a location 25 hives. I just checked and added some bee excluders to remove the honey this week. Upon opening one hive, I found most of the bees on the outside as if to swarm, but when opening the hive. The honey has fermented. One hive out of 25. What would cause this. I thought maybe a lack of ventilation and cracked open the top some. Any suggestions? preacher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Swarm cells vs. supersedure cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Swarm cells vs. supersedure cells Opinions from around the world seem to be pretty much in agreement on this one: Swarm cells commonly are found on or near the bottom bars of the combs in the upper brood chamber(s), whereas supersedure queen cells generally are found on the face of the comb. Publication 1817 Extension Service of Mississippi State University Dr. Clarence H. Collison, Head and Professor of Entomology http://msucares.com/pubs/pub1817.htm ------------------------------ Quite often, the bees will want to supersede their queen, which necessitates the construction of queen cells in order to produce a new queen. The difficulty is that a supersedure cell looks exactly the same as a swarming cell, the only difference being in the quantity, and the location. If the colony is superseding, it is usually content with four or five queen cells, but if they want to swarm, then twenty or more is not unusual. Also, swarming cells tend to be positioned on the periphery of the comb, across the top, down the sides, and more often, across the bottom. Supersedure cells on the other hand, are usually located in the centre of the comb, where an area of worker cells have been cleared to make way for them. These supersedure cells should be left alone, as a new replacement queen denotes a sound future for the colony. The Somerset Beekeepers' Assoc. http://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/Swarmcontrol.html ------------------------------ Queen cells are of three types: swarm cells, supersedure cells and emergency cells. Swarm queen cells are built along the lower edge of the comb, often in large numbers: as many as 20 cells of various ages may be seen in a colony. Supersedure queen cells, fewer in number, are generally about the same age and built perpendicular to the comb surface; they are usually formed from old, darker wax than swarm queen cells which, built at times of high food availability, usually consist of whiter, newly-secreted wax. Beekeeping in Asia FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin 68/4 Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations Rome, 1990 by Pongthep Akratanakul Bee Research Laboratory Department of Entomology Kasetsart University Kamphaeng Saen, Nakhon Pathom Thailand http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0083e/X0083E03.htm ------------------------------ Controlling Swarming: What won't work Some practices supposedly used to prevent or remediate swarming, do little more than delay it. Among these practices are the following: · clipping one of the queen's wings -- This procedure is often used to mark new queens resulting in a queen that cannot fly. The new queen's left wing is clipped when acquired during odd-numbered years; the right wing when acquired in even-numbered years. This often provides a false sense of confidence due to the fact that the queen cannot fly away with an issuing swarm. When a colony swarms and a clipped queen is forced out of the hive, she cannot fly and generally cannot return. Such a queen is thereby lost. In this case, the swarm returns to the hive and leaves a few days later with a virgin queen. Swarming has been delayed, not prevented. · removing queen cells -- Cutting out queen cells can delay swarming, but does not reduce the swarming urge. The bees will work diligently to raise another queen until such time as they can do so successfully. Their efforts generally outlast those of the beekeeper and swarming occurs. · returning a captured swarm to its hive -- Unless the factors that caused the swarming to occur in the first place are corrected, returning a captured swarm to its hive will only be an invitation to further swarming. from Controlling Swarming Copyright 1999 Carl Wenning, Heart of Illinois Beekeepers Association www.phy.ilstu.edu/~wenning/HIBA/bkcourse/swarming.pdf "If I were to meet a man perfect in the entire science and art of beekeeping, and were allowed from him answers to just one question, I would ask for the best and easiest way to prevent swarming." Dr. C. C. Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:05:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like Matt, I have always wondered if a hive with laying workers could be made productive by giving it a few frames of sealed larvae, plus a frame of eggs. As we all know, it is almost impossible to get them to accept a queen from a cage. In the end, I have never tried to have them raise their own queen, because the math doesn't make sense. In order to have laying workers, a hive has to have been queenless for around 5 weeks...an eternity in bee-life. Thus, the workers present are "old", and perhaps not capable of producing the royal jelly necessary to raise a good queen. Royal jelly is normally produced by newly-emerged bees! But even if they could produce a queen from a 1-3 day larvae, it would then take approximately another 5 weeks for her to emerge, mate, and start laying...and then another 3 weeks for the first worker larvae to emerge. That is 8 weeks, on top of the 5 or so all ready elapsed. Sound like the end of summer and a hive with bees and no stores? A hive of laying workers will accept a queen if she is introduced along with all the other bees, larvae, etc. from a 4-5 frame nuc. As many have suggested, from spring until late summer or early fall every beekeeper should keep at least 2 nucs on hand, or 1 nuc for every ten hives, whichever is the greater number. It is rare to go into winter with the nucs still intact. And even if you do, a very high percentage will survive the winter just fine, even as far north as we are. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:55:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Drone laying workers In-Reply-To: <200207050400.g654014h012352@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >So i wonder, Tim or anyone else, will a colony like this make queens if they >get a frame of eggs or larvae in the right age from a colony that is >queenright? What this colony *will* do is anybody's guess. If you give eggs, the *may* raise a queen, or they may fizzle out. What is most likely to work is to combine them with another queenright hive. You can use newspaper to prevent fighting. In fact, it is a good idea to make up new colonies each year to have on hand for the purpose of saving or resurrecting colonies like this that are in trouble. On the other hand, it would probably be just as well to dump the bees out of such a hive and forget about them. All the more reason to have a certain percentage of new hives (10% or more) coming along to make up for the normal losses that occur. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Drone laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > So i wonder, Tim or anyone else, will a colony like this make > queens if they > get a frame of eggs or larvae in the right age from a colony that is > queenright? > > /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden > There is a lot of information on this topic in the archives. But the short answer is no. The coloney thinks it has a queen. Are you sure you have laying workers and not just a drone laying queen? If you are going to try and salvage this colony you will need to add brood from another colony. Both capped and open brood will help in salvaging the bees. Check the archives for further information. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:41:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Allen Dick recently wrote in Bee Culture in June 2002 in an article about our bees, that he saw some remarkable little black bees with wings longer then the bees- - - to the extent that the wings actually stuck out behind the bees. Please note, I bring this to attention because this is one thing I ws taught early on to look for, for selection of breeding stock for pure strain vs hybrids. Question: Don't most all of you have some bees with wings longer then the bodies of your workers and drones, or at least the same length, or to length to within the last tergit on the abdomen? I also bring this question out, because I am getting calls on Allen's seeing this and I don't consider it something new in bees. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:04:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd & All > In order to have laying workers, a hive has to > have been queenless for around 5 weeks... This is more like five or six days in UK.. In 5 weeks we would only have about 50% of a colony left, and that is with bees that have an adult life of about 8 weeks as opposed to 6 that is considered 'normal' Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:16:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee & All, > Question: > Don't most all of you have some bees with wings longer then the bodies of > your workers and drones, or at least the same length, or to length to within > the last tergit on the abdomen? > I was looking at some of my bees I got from Bolling Bee Co. and it seemed to me that some of the bees had wings that were longer than the bodies. How far behind the end of the abdomen are the wings on your bees Dee? Is it possible to see a picture of this about your bees? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:46:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Laying Workers Define 'laying workers'! Since queenright colonies often have some laying workers, how many must there be before we define the colony as having 'laying workers'? If there a gradual increase from the time that a colony becomes queenless, is it a subjective judgement on the part of the beekeeper as to when the colony is described as a laying worker colony? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cushman" To: Sent: 05 July 2002 18:04 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Laying Workers > Hi Lloyd & All > > > In order to have laying workers, a hive has to > > have been queenless for around 5 weeks... > > This is more like five or six days in UK.. In 5 weeks we would only have > about 50% of a colony left, and that is with bees that have an adult life of > about 8 weeks as opposed to 6 that is considered 'normal' > > > Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY > Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:27:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: fermented hive In-Reply-To: <001301c2235c$fcd24fc0$6b23dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Preacher and All, It really sounds like you have an infestation of Hive Beetles. This is a classic symptom. You should notice the beetles running out of the top of your hive, at the frame rests, when you open it. Check the brood section. Beetles seem to attack the brood section first. You will have no mistake if you see the beetle larvae in the brood frames. They look like maggots. Give the swarm a new box with fresh frames. Make sure the bees are crowded in the new box, so that they will be better able to cover and defend the new comb, as it is drawn. Look up the numerous articles in the Archives, on Hive Beetles. These beetles are tough to deal with, but I feel we will find a solution, in time. The bright side is, you have only one hive out of 25 down. This could mean you have some good resistant stock there to work with. The Beetles don't kill all the hives they get into. If you do find out you have beetles in this hive, you may be certain the beetles will be in all of the other hives, in the vicinity. This is just another thing we will have to deal with. Remember, the beekeepers in Africa, feel that the Beetle is just a minor pest. I am hoping it will end up as a minor pest here too, in time. Bob Bassett rj.bassett@verizon.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:39:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: fermented hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In response to Preacher's query Bob Bassett wrote: > It really sounds like you have an infestation of Hive Beetles. This was my guess too, but I couldn't recall where Precher is located. Illinois? I wasn't sure if it was in a beetle documented locale or not. But the description of honey fermented while it was still on the hive was something I have never encountered in upstate NY. But I guess it's just a matter of time. Aaron Morris - thinking coming to a neighborhood near you.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: fermented hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello Preacher and All, > It really sounds like you have an infestation of Hive Beetles. This is a > classic symptom. Hello Bob,\ Well I will look into the hive and look for the beetle. I don't know of any in Missouri yet. Seems today that the bees went in and were working well. I had given them some foundation and opened up the hive for more ventilation. Time will tell. Thanks preacher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:21:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <001301c22450$0830e180$7170ed18@w3a7k4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Keith Malone wrote: I was looking at some of my bees I got from Bolling Bee Co. and it seemed to me that some of the bees had wings that were longer than the bodies. Reply: You have seen it in no other bees you have ever gotten or kept? Is this the same for others on BEE-L? Keith also wrote: How far behind the end of the abdomen are the wings on your bees Dee? Reply: For the small blacks about a good tergit width, though some as the season progresses end right about there where the abdomen ends (for workerbees. With Drones it is consistantly longer. Also, on our hybrids we are trying to bring by breeding now, back to being simple hybrids, by reducing the number of subfamilies through use of out-of-season breeding, we are now starting to get constantly within range of the end of the abdomen and tergits with the wings, with some, but very little slightly longer. But it is harder here to do as yellow bee traits are at the furthest extent of range, wile the small blacks are at the beginning extent of range for temperate zone. Keith further wrote: Is it possible to see a picture of this about your bees? Reply: Our bees should not be unique, for this/these traits should be seen with any honeybee on a natural system within the the nautral sizing spectrum. I have pictures I could look thorugh, and others have been here taking pictures of our bees from here, that could look through what they have taken also to see, but to see the wings on paper for comparison in-general, so you can learn what to look for, for natural breeding selection stocklines, should not be hard to find IMPOV.If you need help let me know! Also as the wings are longer, I also look for the older markings of tigertails or what I call tootsie-roll queens Keith. These are bees striped yellowish with black and brownish banding markings, and black with brownish top tergit banding markings. You seen any Tigertails or tootsei-roll colouration queens Keith? If so, how do the wings match up? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:33:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Laying Workers In-Reply-To: <000f01c22446$69cabc40$323ee150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on Bee-l Lloyd wrote: > In order to have laying workers, a hive has to > have been queenless for around 5 weeks... This is more like five or six days in UK.. In 5 weeks we would only have about 50% of a colony left, Reply: Here I would agree with Lloyd for development of fully functionable laying workers. Question Dave: From what point in time would you start counting the days for your 5-6 days in UK, concerning the state of going from queen right to queenlessness with full function laying workers? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:47:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <20020705014122.97935.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <20020705014122.97935.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >Don't most all of you have some bees with wings longer then >the bodies of your workers and drones, or at least the same >length, or to length to within the last tergit on the >abdomen? I wondered about this and when this thread started up I decided to actually observe what was there. Over a couple of days I looked at this feature in a couple of hundred colonies. My conclusion is that it is commonplace. There are at least as many colonies as not where it is the normal, and most colonies have at least some bees where it is found. Never particularly noticed it until my attention was drawn to it as it seems to be more the normal than anything special. Only real exception are our Kona carniolans, where, when well nourished, they are a very big bee and very few have these long wings, but if there is a food deficiency they too meet this criterion. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:58:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Laying Workers In-Reply-To: <000f01c22446$69cabc40$323ee150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000f01c22446$69cabc40$323ee150@cushman>, Dave Cushman writes >This is more like five or six days in UK.. In 5 weeks we would only have >about 50% of a colony left, and that is with bees that have an adult life of >about 8 weeks as opposed to 6 that is considered 'normal' Sorry to have to disagree here Dave, but cannot say that this matches my experience, which is much closer to Lloyds version of events. FWIW, I find colonies reduced to laying workers level, and apparently thinking they are queenright as such, are actually pretty rare. I will not find more than a couple a year out of our unit, and regard them as something to cull, not attempt to cure. Almost without exception, when someone thinks they have laying workers, they actually have a queen in there which for a variety of reasons they have not found and which is laying drone. The tricky ones are the little intercastes from poor and late emergency cells, which do not mate and lay a sporadic and sparse pattern. Drone layers are a pain, and are rarely truly worth persevering with. Much more productive to just shake them out and spit a queenright hive to refill the box, although placing it then back on the original stand is unwise and sometime just leads to the drone layer moving back in, so, if you wish to do that, kill the queen if you have time to find her. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:21:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: fermented hive In-Reply-To: <002901c2249f$55eeab60$9422dad0@34un9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that documented cases of the Small Hive Beetle have been noted in St Louis County and also in the Jefferson City area of Missouri. At our local beekeeper's association meeting a few months ago, the state entomologist spoke of this, bringing preserved specimens of the beetle for us to see. If anyone suspects Small Hive Beetle infestation in Missouri, a call to the stare entomologist might be appropriate to help keep track of this new bug. Gerald Herrin On Friday, July 5, 2002, at 10:43 PM, preacher wrote: >> Hello Preacher and All, >> It really sounds like you have an infestation of Hive Beetles. This >> is a >> classic symptom. > > Hello Bob,\ > Well I will look into the hive and look for the beetle. I don't know of > any > in Missouri yet. Seems today that the bees went in and were working > well. I > had given them some foundation and opened up the hive for more > ventilation. > Time will tell. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:08:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: fermented hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Well I have checked into the hive. No beetles! My only guess is that the hive was sealed over with no ventalation. Now will the bees , use or cure the fermented stuff? Or should I get rid of it. I put a new box of foundation on and they are drawing it out. By the way. I didn't know of beetles in Missouri. I will have to keep a look out for them. I do remember getting a dead beetle in a queen cage about three years ago from someone in Georgia . Well got to go for now. Thanks for the help. preacher ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 09:37:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen Dick recently wrote in Bee Culture in June 2002 in an > article about our bees, that he saw some remarkable little > black bees with wings longer then the bees- - - to the > extent that the wings actually stuck out behind the bees. These were in the last yard we went to, as I recall. The bees weren't malnourished or unusually short as I recall, the wings looked longer than usual. I'm not all that observant and wasn't all that serious in my examination -- I had no plans to write the story at the time -- but I've looked at a lot of bees and these just looked different enough to me to be remarkable. I don't know about you other beekeepers, but I look in thousands of hives every year, and bees are like people. Every one is different. Most are pretty 'normal' looking and fall into racial and seasonal norms so they are pretty much alike, but every now and then you see something different. That make you sit up and take notice. For example, I noticed the attendant bees that came with my first Kona queens this spring were smarter than usual and could understand windows. I was impressed. I enjoy and respect bees that seem smarter than usual. Anyhow, in most of the hives where Dee pointed out the dark bees, I didn't see a huge difference, but in these particular hives I saw some bees that looked different to me. These bees were not stunted, but the length of the wings, or _maybe the way they carried them_ was markedly different to my eye. When I work with bees, I often am unable to talk. I didn't try to put it into words until after, and I'm not totally sure what I saw. As I said, my camera was in the process of downloading to the notebook, so I didn't take a shot. At the time, I wasn't planning to share my observations with the world. Even the trip to Lusbys wasn't planned beyond dropping in to say, "Hi". allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 09:59:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <000f01c22503$19f4d300$50ae73d1@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to Allen and all: Allen wrote: but in these particular hives I saw some bees that looked different to me. These bees were not stunted, but the length of the wings, or _maybe the way they carried them_ was markedly different to my eye. Reply: Yes, these bees do look different and they do stand out when the eye first sees them, even to me yet after all these years. I can go through 100s of colonies looking for the right 2-3 for grafting and yet, you know you have them when you see them, for they stand out. Yes, the wings do look differnt on the workers and drones, also the abdomen;and, legs of the queen also are normally carried different, along with her movements to watch. It is hard to describe the abdomen in a way, it is not so rounded and longish, it is more cupped with point. Also colouration is different and way bees seem to stare back at you and make you fix your eyes on them, as they fix theirs on you. Yet they are not flightly and move very delibertly. Regards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:54:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Define 'laying workers'! > > Since queenright colonies often have some laying workers, how many must > there be before we define the colony as having 'laying workers'? I was not refering to the background of anarchic laying workers, but to the penomena as it is usually recognised by large numbers of laying workers and multiple eggs in cells. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:31:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 5 Jul 2002 to 6 Jul 2002 (#2002-183) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sitting here at my parents home visiting I have seen around some of their flowers a bee that has the colleration of a honey bee, and yet must be as long as a bumblebee. Any Idea what this might be? TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:30:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all To Lloyd, Dee & Murray... There seems to be some confusion here. I am not sure whether we are talking about the laying workers producing and laying eggs or drones hatching from such eggs. I am talking about the onset of laying in laying workers. So I had a look in a few books, I was surprised by how little information there was on the subject. Out of a couple of dozen books, all by emminent persons, I found a vague referance by Manley to "workers quickly become laying workers on becoming queenless". The only info I could find with any numbers in it came from Eva Crane, she said "3 to 4 weeks for European bees and 5 to 10 days for African Mellifera types" Most of my personal experiance of laying workers has been in 5 frame nucs used for mating (5 or 6 occasions) 2 full sized colonies operated by my local association at a teaching apiary and one other case in a 5 frame nuc of a friend. Whilst no records of dates were kept in any of these cases, my impression is certainly of much shorter times than 3, 4 or 5 weeks. I would stretch to 2 weeks simply because it would have been possible, but more than that would not fit. I also do not believe there were any significant African content apart from the residue and influence that could have occurred from some Buckfast bees many years previous. There may be a racial component here, as all the cases that I mention above were strains with a high percentage content of Itallian genes. Since I have changed over to AMM strains I have not seen a single incedence of laying workers. Murray said... > Drone layers are a pain, and are rarely truly worth persevering with I whole heartedly agree with this as the repeated effort is just not worthwhile. I also agree with Murray that in many cases where laying workers are assumed there is actually a queen of some sorts present. I can state that in three of the cases that I mentioned I passed the entire colony through a queen excluder to seive out any possible runts. (the laying workers went through the seive) Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:49:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: laying workers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI: Worker policing is any behaviour by workers that reduces reproduction by other nestmate workers . There is good evidence that one mechanism of worker policing in the honey-bee (Apis mellifera) occurs via the eating of eggs. Ratnieks and Visscher showed that almost all worker-laid eggs from queenless colonies survived less than 1 day when transferred to queenright tester colonies. In contrast, more than 50% of queen-laid male eggs survived. Worker-laid eggs treated with extracts obtained from queen Dufour glands had increased survival , strongly suggesting that queens mark their eggs with a pheromone from this gland and that workers discriminate between queen and worker-laid eggs according to the presence or absence of the pheromonal signal. By using genetic markers to determine the percentage of workers' sons in male eggs of different ages and in adult males, Visscher estimated that workers lay 7% of all male eggs. However, almost all of these are policed before hatching and in normal colonies, only 1 adult male in 1000 is a worker's son. Workers do not discriminate between the queen's sons and worker's sons in the larval stage . The proportion of workers with fully activated ovaries in normal queenright colonies is extremely low, approximately 0.01%. from Evolution of worker sterility in honey-bees ( Apis mellifera) by Benjamin P. Oldroyd · Francis L.W. Ratnieks -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:39:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Laying Workers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Murray McGregor writes about drone-laying queens >The tricky ones are the little >intercastes from poor and late emergency cells, which do not mate and >lay a sporadic and sparse pattern. I must admit to having problems finding most drone-layers and this would explain the problem. Though often they just lay in the drone cells with a normal pattern but very low rate. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 18:56:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Murray McGregor got me looking at books following his email of looking at bees for two days to see if wings longer then body. Glad he found some, but he didn't say if any were uniformly mated that way or not. Kinda hope he found one. Have had a few also on biobee reference pictures they too have looked at, so I decided to post where to find pictures in a few books I have, and reference the pages/text so if you too have the books you can look at them for comparison. These are just a few book more popular in reading. There are many more out there with pictures. Problem is, the pictures are not with the texts on races/strains really depicting what they are. They are just pictures and many are old pictures just continued to be used over the years, while the text has been rewritten numerous times, which I find interesting. You'd think they'd change both to match the times! But glad they didn't, for now you can see old picutres of bees taken when combs used were much smaller, to compare to what you have today in your hives, to see how uniformly small or large or mixed sizes your bees are. I start with Langstroth on the Hive & Honey Bee, revised by Chas. and C.P. Dadant, 21st edition, 1922 It opens with pictures opposite title page of drone,queen, and worker bee reproduced from lithographs of the Barbo studies, published originally in 1873 in Milan, Italy. I consider it a good picture series because it has been reproduced so much to industry, though not noted as bees from Milan Italy in 1873, in current editions of Hive & Honey Bee, 1992, page 583. This would be good IMPOV for those looking for good picture of Italians with good body perspective as to length of wings, abdomen for a simple hybrid. yellow/blackish or brownish (at least more so that what is called so today - again IMOV). Then I look at A Manual of Bee-Keeping by E. B. Wedmore, 3rd edition illustrated. It too opens with a picture opposite the title page of queen, drone, and worker bee and is of British Black Bees, after Curtis, from Bagster's "The Management of Bees," 1834, with bees shown both magnified and natural size. I consider it a good picture series of small black bees in general whether for UK or mainland EU or mediterranean area or even here in our area of USA. The wings shown of the worker are IMPOV what Allen has been talking about and I look for uniformly in all subfamilies when I can find it for grafting my small blacks, though color markings probably differ a little as I look for silver hairs on tergits also! But I like the body perspective shown as to length of wings and abdomen. When I look at the June issue of Bee Culture on the cover I see a queen bee for a "tiger-tail" that I have compared to the 1913 edition of ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture page 469 of the queen pictured there opposite drone with longer wings then body and worker with wings about same length. In the 1920 edition of ABC & XYZ page 640 you see the same picture of the bees (pg 469) but on page 112 you see a different picture of worker and queen with long wings and different race it looks like. In Ruttner's Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee 1988, on page 142 I see a long winged worker bee that looks similar to long winged worker bee in USDA's Beekeeping in the United States, 1980 edition, page 31 of long winged small black worker bee in S. Arizona. Also on the cover in Ruttner's book, I see what I call a "Tootsie-roll" queen in coloration. In the Dark European Honey Bee, 1990, page 50 and page 3 one can see pictures of long winged bees by John Curtis (1791-1862). Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Hive increase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeps, I have a question. I am in missouri. Is it too late to split for increase. And have a strong hive for winter. I thought about it , with some of the strong hives I just took the honey off of. I would have them put on foundation with new queens and fed until the foundation is drawn out. Any suggestions? preacher