From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:43:53 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B7C49089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXl010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0207B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 167775 Lines: 3928 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:22:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <20020708015626.24679.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <20020708015626.24679.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >Hi all > >Murray McGregor got me looking at books following his email >of looking at bees for two days to see if wings longer then >body. Glad he found some, but he didn't say if any were >uniformly mated that way or not. Kinda hope he found one. Sorry, cannot say if this was the case or not, but it does seem to be almost the normal. I am NOT talking anything extreme here, as I was using your own description of 'to at least the last tergite of the abdomen'. Some are longer than that and some actually have shaped wings which curve with the shape of the abdomen and reach right to the end of it. Never really looked at this characteristic before, but still finding that the big black bees have the greatest prosperity and apparent health. MANY drones have wings longer than their bodies. >It too opens with a picture opposite the title page of >queen, drone, and worker bee and is of British Black Bees, >after Curtis, from Bagster's "The Management of Bees," >1834, with bees shown both magnified and natural size. > >I consider it a good picture series of small black bees in >general whether for UK or mainland EU or mediterranean area >or even here in our area of USA. I would doubt the reliability of a picture of that age, and if it is a photo it must be a later addition. However, if I am seeing this characteristic as almost normal, and our bees are PREDOMINANTLY A.m.m, this could be an interesting clue to what you have, A.m. iberica, the Spanish/Portuguese bee, is a sub group off the mellifera/mellifica race. It is also the bee most likely to have been imported in antiquity and exist as relict ferals, albeit now greatly modified by other genetic influxes and selection for local conditions. Without looking at climatic data I would suspect that the situation on the Spanish Meseta might be quite similar to Nevada/Arizona/New Mexico. Fairly high altitude, arid, windy, very hot in summer, prone to cold blasts in winter. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:08:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Laying Workers In-Reply-To: <000601c22599$174de4c0$2e27e150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000601c22599$174de4c0$2e27e150@cushman>, Dave Cushman writes >I can state that in three >of the cases that I mentioned I passed the entire colony through a queen >excluder to seive out any possible runts. (the laying workers went through >the seive) This does not surprise me, as intercastes are often undersized (thoracically) and sometimes can pass through normal excluders at will. Worst experience with intercastes we had was a couple of years ago when a queen shipment was sent to us. It never arrived, but we made up the splits on the assurance it was on the way (it was from a regular and reliable supplier). When it did not arrive and a replacement set was being prepared we went round the splits and destroyed all the emergency cells at about 10 days after making them up. To our surprise about one in three of these went on to raise further cells from very mature larvae, sometimes the cells just looked like an enlarged drone cell, a mere bump on the comb face. Yet out of these came tiny queens and we had an awful, and only partially successful, task in getting rid of these runts. Despite our efforts some went on to make drone layers, but most mated and laid, apparently satisfactorily despite their small size. However, at least half of them then superceded within a few weeks, and others failed in the coming winter. Only a couple carried on to the following spring and then superceded. These things were sometimes relatively normal looking, but sometimes just the size of a worker but with a differently shaped abdomen. These tiny ones were almost impossible to spot unless you knew what you were looking for and anticipated their presence. They just mingle in with the workers and do not skip around on top of the mass of bees like a virgin does. The smaller they were the greater the chance of them being a drone only layer. In three years since, over about 5000 colony/seasons I have had only one case in which I am sure there was a laying worker present, and this was a multiple requeening failure and took about 6 weeks for the first eggs to appear from the workers (it was a bad site for mating and it turned out that there were birds (sandmartins) preying on the flying bees). -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:51:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and All, Dee wrote: > I consider it a good picture series because it has been > reproduced so much to industry, though not noted as bees > from Milan Italy in 1873, in current editions of Hive & > Honey Bee, 1992, page 583. In the picture on page 583 I see nothing out of the ordinary with the wing length on the queen and worker. I do see the wings longer on the drone. One has to be careful you are looking at actual pictures instead of artists drawings in old books. The picture in figure 8 on page 583 could easily be a artist drawing in my opinion. The caption should say *slightly enlarged* or else those are some big bees if those are actual size. An example of an drawing is in the book by E.F. Phillips "Bee-Keeping" copy 1928 page 47 fig. 35. The *drawing *shows the worker bees wings even with the tip of the abdomen. Also the drone with wings shorter than the abdomen. We know the bees are drawn as the caption says *slightly enlarged*. An example of an actual picture of queen, drone and worker is in the 1935 ABC-Xyz on page 1. The picture has been used in many bee books. The picture has been taken from the side with the bees in a normal position with the wings in a normal position. One can clearly see none of the wings are longer than the body except possibly the drones. I do not dispute you have got worker bees Dee with wings longer than the body. I do have a problem with saying all the bees of old had wings longer than their bodies if that's what you are leading up to. As for color when talking to the researcher about genes awhile back he said they figure around five genes control color. Breeding for color could be harder than breeding for hygienic behavior which is controlled by only a couple genes I am told. I respect your view point but color would be low on my list of things I would be selecting for in a breeder queen. Unless I was in South Africa and trying to separate the capensis genes from the scut genes. Color is a big factor in their breeder queen selection they have told me. Black is capensis and yellow is scut. We will have to *agree to disagree * on the color issue. I have got friends which raise and sell many queens a year and I have discussed their methods of choosing breeder queens and all say color is low on their list of things they look for in a breeder queen. I always found color to vary greatly with my Buckfast queens in the years I used Buckfast queens. I tried many of the queens in years gone past which were selected for color. About 50% did what I wanted and expected. The rest were beautiful to look at but worthless in many ways. Queen rearing is being taken to new territory by Ohio queen breeders and Dr. Harbo, Harris and others. We are beginning to understand only now what Dr. Kerr was talking about 40 years ago (in my opinion I guess I will have to add for now). One will not find the answers to today's queen breeding in the old bee books (in my opinion). I have to wonder what stage we might be at today in understanding the gene relationship to breeder queens if Steve Tabor and others had been allowed to research further instead of stopped by their superiors in the 60's. Every generation has a researcher which stands out. By finding those few different thinkers and not supressing their ideas we can make big gains in research. . My friends which took the Australian beekeeping tour a few years back told of bees they saw which did not build burr comb, better temperament than in the U.S. , used very little propolis , prolific and excellent honey producers but of uneven color. Hmmm! Dee and others might call those mongrels. I would call those my kind of bees. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:15:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Maxant Hive Scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Mark, Could you describe this scale? I'm not sure I am familiar with it. The scale that came to mind was a cheap scale offered but discontinued (possible by Dadant?) that I acquired somewhere along the way, possibly at a close out sale? Anyway, the scale I bought was little more than a hive stand with springs and a needle that gave an uncalibrated indication of weight. It seemed to me next to a meaningless indication of weight gain/loss, so much so that I never even used it, and I bought 2! They were definitely a close-out item for a reduced price. My assessment upon receipt was, "It's no wonder this item is being discontinued!". So, what about this Maxant scale? It's been some time since I went through a Maxant catalog and I don't recall ever seeing a scale. Aaron Morris - thinking I usually avoid scales 'cause I don't want to know! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:49:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <000f01c22503$19f4d300$50ae73d1@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000f01c22503$19f4d300$50ae73d1@allen>, Allen Dick writes >For example, I noticed the attendant >bees that came with my first Kona queens this spring were smarter than >usual and could understand windows. Now I am impressed too. If they understand windows surely it is just a small bit of selective breeding and, being able to use windows they could do all my office work with a bit of training! Now, if they (the breeders) were really clever we might find bees that would gather sufficient honey, but given how things are this year I suppose that remains a distant dream. >When I work with bees, I often am unable to talk. Now theres a funny thing. I am a bit like that too, and it frustrates those around me who are supposed to be watching and learning, whilst I do something apparently 'off the wall' without explanation. I assume people will understand better than they do, and am guilty of working away in silence. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:15:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Missouri Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi folks: I'm looking for beekeepers with 50+ colonies within 1-2 hrs of Ft Leonard Wood, Missouri. There is a very slight chance that we may be doing some trials there in August and September. We would be looking for someone from whom we could rent colonies in sets of 3-5 for 24hr trials. In other words, we are looking for someone who could provide us with colonies that we could move onto the Military Installation for a 24 hr test (move the bees in the night before, remove the next night). Probably looking toward 12+ days of work. No colony would be used for more than 24hr. Need cost estimates and availability dates a.s.a.p. Please respond to me directly, using both this e-mail address and my alternate address beeresearch@aol.com. I am in MT today, heading back to San Antonio as soon as things dry up a bit this week. You can call me on my cell 406-544-9007, or leave a message on my MT office phone 406-243-5648. If you call, I'll call you back, so its on my nickel. I need this information a.s.a.p. We are examining the feasability of trials in Missouri versus Croatia. Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana Jerry J. Bromenshenk Research Professor The University of Montana-Missoula jjbmail@selway.umt.edu 406-243-5648 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Drone laying workers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:30 AM 7/4/02 +0200, you wrote: >So i wonder, will a colony like this make queens if they >get a frame of eggs or larvae in the right age from a colony that is >queenright? I haven't had any problems raising a new queen or introducing a new queen (if available) to a colony with laying workers. Of course none of them would were a full blown worker laying colony (5 weeks plus without a queen), which I'm beginning to think from the discussion would make quite a difference. At what level a queenless colony with laying workers becomes a worker laying colony I don't know. Time isn't the only factor, I had a queenless colony go for about 5 weeks last year without a trace of drone brood, and yet failed to raise or accept a new queen. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:08:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fermented hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, If small hive beetle was not your problem then I suspect your problem comes from a high moisture content, high yeast honey starting to ferment from the high heat we are seeing. As I recall Dennis you said earlier this spring you were using honey in frames from those hives you bought which had been unattended for years. Is the honey fermented some of those frames? Although bees typically do not seal honey till the moisture is right sealed honey can pick up moisture in wet weather (like we had earlier this spring before the drought conditions we are seeing now) in a weak hive and does many times. Yeasts are in all raw honey. Add the high temperatures we are seeing (97 F. today with heat index of 107) and many beekeepers with high moisture raw honey in five gallon pails in their garage will see fermentation. Although rather rare in strong hives I have heard of cases such as you describe in weak hives (nucs) without the bees to open cells and stop the fermentation and reseal. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:04:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/07/02 05:00:59 GMT Daylight Time, Peter Borst writes: << The proportion of workers with fully activated ovaries in normal queenright colonies is extremely low, approximately 0.01%. >> So in a typical queenright colony at this time of year there may be as many as half a dozen laying workers. I think it was Aebi who wrote (although I don't know his source) that maybe 1% of laying workers can lay female eggs. So maybe something in the region of one colony in 20 will have a laying worker producing female eggs. That is one of several (more likely) explanations for something I found this year: a sealed queen cell several inches above a good queen excluder with no other brood above the QE. The queen was in full lay below the QE. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:49:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Laying Workers > >So in a typical queenright colony at this time of year there may be as many >as half a dozen laying workers. I think it was Aebi who wrote (although I >don't know his source) that maybe 1% of laying workers can lay female eggs. >So maybe something in the region of one colony in 20 will have a laying >worker producing female eggs. > >That is one of several (more likely) explanations for something I found this >year: a sealed queen cell several inches above a good queen excluder with no >other brood above the QE. The queen was in full lay below the QE. > >Chris Yes, and I'm glad for that explaination too. When I saw something similar in one of my scut hives I wondered if all those old tales were true of a hive stealing an egg from another hive in the area. The whole concept of thelytoky seems much more reasonable :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <000201c22670$6b80f000$81ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Bob Harrison wrote: I do not dispute you have got worker bees Dee with wings longer than the body. I do have a problem with saying all the bees of old had wings longer than their bodies if that's what you are leading up to. Reply: Nope, didn't say that! Go back and re-read what I wrote. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:34:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Laying Workers In-Reply-To: <3c.20d4eeed.2a5b6679@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <3c.20d4eeed.2a5b6679@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >That is one of several (more likely) explanations for something I found this >year: a sealed queen cell several inches above a good queen excluder with no >other brood above the QE. The queen was in full lay below the QE. > >Chris This is another thing lots of people do not realise to be very common. We will find these in a remarkably high proportion of colonies. However, although you get the *occasional* viable one, most are actually built on a drone larva and, although they look fine, never hatch. The same colonies often (although this does not mean the majority) have substantial amounts of drone brood in the supers and we have always put that down to eggs carried up, and indeed have seen it being done. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following this conversation with much interest. Yesterday I took a look at my observation hive. I noticed that I also have workers that have wings longer than their body. I also have ones with shorter than their body and ones with the same length. Their seems to be no pattern or continuity in wing length in this particular hive. The Queen is a daughter of an artificiality inseminated Queen from York Bee Co. I believe that the original Queen was Italian. The current queen was naturally breed in my apiary with four different strains of hives around it. This observation hive is about eight hundred feet from the nearest hive, so I am reasonably sure that I am seeing bees that were reared in the hive. I also noted this same wing length differentiation in one of my hives in our apiary. This queen also I am told is of an Italian strain. I say this because I just received this hive this spring from another beekeeper. So for whatever this is worth I plan to check my other colonies the next time I go in. Regards Garrett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wings longer then body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just curious but are the wings longer or the bodies shorter? I note differences in body length all the time in my hives. And is there any reason that there would not be variability in bees, even of the same race or queen? Especially naturally mated or the conditions in the hive when the bees were developing. I would expect that you would see longer wings, longer bodies, etc.. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:17:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Wings longer then body Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdale writes: >Just curious but are the wings longer or the bodies shorter? I note >differences in body length all the time in my hives. > >And is there any reason that there would not be variability in bees, >even of the same race or queen? Especially naturally mated or the >conditions in the hive when the bees were developing. I would expect >that you would see longer wings, longer bodies, etc.. One of the "eye-opening" principles I learned in one of my introductory entomology courses in college (the professor was a bio-systematist) was that just as no two human beings are exactly the same, no two insects are exactly the same either. Each one is an individual, differrent in some way from all the rest. There are ranges of variability for numerous characteristics--number of hairs or setae, length of the setae, patterns of the setae, length of the wings, width of the wings, etc. etc. etc. and on and on for everything you can measure. We as human beings place a lot of value on individual variation in human beings but usually forget that the same individual variation exists in the world of insects (and the rest of nature) too. When my professor found a new species or genus to describe, he collected as many as he could obtain and measured and compared them. All the descriptions were in ranges of what he had measured. Each individual differed from the rest in some way. He then picked one or two individuals of the group that most closely represented the average characteristics as the holotype, and the remainder were named allotypes (maybe there was another "type" too, but it's been so long that I don't recall). There is tremendous genetic variability and plasticity, and it is expressed physically, physiologically and in numerous other ways. Honeybees are not exempt. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. (not flooding here) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:22:57 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Stefan Stangaciu" Subject: New Apitherapy Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Stefan Stangaciu President of the German Apitherapy Society www.apitherapie.de International Apitherapy Consultant www.apitherapy.com Dear Mrs./Mr.., You may know that among the healthiest people on earth are the beekeepers. They live 3-8 years longer than the rest of the population! One of the reasons why they live so long is that they usually consume at least one of the main bee products: honey, bee pollen, royal jelly or propolis. We make an open invitation to you to start thinking that the beehive products may also help you, your best friends or your family members ! 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We hope that our offer will increase your desire to learn more about the mystery of a beekeeper's life and help you and your best friends to live healthier and longer, as the beekeepers do! We look forward to hearing from you! Sincerely yours, Andrei Stangaciu, AIC Registration Department E-mail: apither@gmb.ro ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hive Scale Comments: To: Rob Green MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Rob, Perhaps, I really don't know. My recollection was that I bought two because they were close-out cheap ($10?). When I got them, they were just plain cheap (vs. close-out cheap). I remember thinking, "Well, what did you expect?". I didn't even bother to assemble them, let alone put in the effort to put a hive on them. I think they may even still be in the original box somewhere, if I could find them. Again, not worth the effort. Now, if the Maxant hive is any good and reasonably priced I might consider it. I've got two hives on antique farm scales which I acquired last year and I'm having a great time plotting the weight gains every morning before coming to work. Averaging between 4 and 10 pounds a day weight gains the past week or so. It's the height of the honey flow in these parts (upstate NY). Cheers, Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Rob Green [mailto:info@ccrb.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 9:47 AM To: AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Hive Scale Was what you bought a "Hive Monitor" made by a company in Tennessee... Apparently discountinued over 20 years ago, I see them for sale on e-bay. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:00:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of the "eye-opening" principles I learned in one of my introductory > entomology courses in college (the professor was a bio-systematist) > was that just as no two human beings are exactly the same, no two > insects are exactly the same either. Each one is an individual, differrent > in some way from all the rest. Not only are there genetic and developmental differences, but as any animal, individual bees differ in their condition. We can see the difference between a horse that is well-fed and one that is starving because the former is sleek and smooth. On the latter the ribs stick out and the coat is dull. There are many other things we can observe about a horse that allow us to deduce information about its age and condition. Bees are no different in that respect, but they have an exoskeleton, so we can't expect to see ribs showing. They are also built very differently from us, so the familiar clues that will tell us a lot about the state of our fellow mammals may not apply. Nonetheless, there are many obvious signs, such as the condition of the bee's hair and condition of the wings, and the size of the bee and its proportions compared to others nearby. There are other more subtle cues too, that become obvious to the persistent bee lover, but the largest problem we face is that bees are sufficiently small that many us -- even those of us who are legal to drive and can read without lenses -- cannot see them clearly without reading glasses or some other aid like a jeweller's loup. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: Laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris said:< . . . a sealed queen cell several inches above a good queen excluder with no other brood above the QE. The queen was in full lay below the QE.> I had this happen once on undrawn foundation above a QE. I am persuaded it was a case of workers moving eggs. Roy Thurber "Bee Chats, Tips and Gaadgets" spoke of seeing it happen. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:08:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Roody Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals In-Reply-To: <001b01c2276a$2915b3e0$8bae73d1@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ok, so this leads to a question I've had and never seen answered. If bees are individuals and can be told apart: Do bees get to know their keepers? Has anyone observed a colony react differently to an inspector or knowledgeable visitor (someone who knows their way around)? I'm just curious if any studies have been conducted or if anyone has made any observations. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:56:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Honey Exchange? I swiped some cut-comb honey from my bees here in the Seattle area for a tasting while I had family visiting last week. Went over big with the young and the old - but - the in-betweens... not so much. But it got me to thinking that I would like to taste honey from other parts of the country - in fact, why not the world? Just imagine trading Blackberry for Orange honey or Fireweed for Tupelo or Sourwood. You might get last year's crop but it would probably be the real thing! Has it been done? IS it being done and if so, how can I get in on it? Thanks for listening. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:10:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Apidologie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apidologie is available online at http://www.edpsciences.org/docinfos/INRA-APIDO/OnlineINRA-APIDObis.html abstracts are apparently free, and a free trial is offered at http://www.edpsciences.org/gate/trial-offer.html allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:09:02 +0100 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Organization: Hopesay Glebe Farm Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do bees get to know their keepers? > > Has anyone observed a colony react differently to an > inspector or knowledgeable visitor (someone who knows > their way around)? > Reply: While working at an Agricultural college in Hampshire UK there was a particular worker who was stung each time he got out of the truck, before he started work with the bees. The students always claimed they were stung more working with him than with the rest of us. On the last day of his employment he was stung under one eye while walking across the yard, ten minutes later was stung under the other eye. He was not a enthusiastic beekeeper during his last six months, perhaps the bees could sense aggression, or perhaps he was unlucky? Regards Phil Moore Shropshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals-do they know their keepers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is one of those topics that can quickly degenerate, since it gets into intelligence/planning and all the other anthropomorphic qualities people tend to ascribe to bees/dogs/cats/your choice. The more probable differences in behavior have been discussed often on this list and they are odor, skunk visits, clothing, improper handling, the aggressive hive etc.. Since it is difficult to know what someone splashes on themselves, the nature if the fabric they are wearing, and if skunks visited in the night, it would be a bit presumptive to ascribe aggressiveness toward one person by a colony to the bees using visual messages to identify the person. Try wearing a wool sweater out to visit your colonies and see if they decide that it is only you making a fashion statement and leave you alone. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:33:20 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Roody asked: > Do bees get to know their keepers? It would be unlikely, if not impossible, because: a) Every day, 1000 - 2000 new bees hatch out. It would be hard to "meet" that many beings of any sort. Of 60,000 bees in a hive, how many can ever "get to know you", even assuming that bees are better at recalling names and faces than Dale Carnegie was? b) Even if you "inspected" a hive every day, you will not be able to make every bee aware of your "visit". There will always be a significant number of bees who are completely unaware that you have opened the hive, removed the super that they are in, etc. Many bees are foraging, and have no way to "meet" you. c) Bees simply do not seem to "remember" tactical information, so despite my predictable approach, entrances are still guarded, but no guards ever await me on the inner cover or topmost super. (Note that I have yet to stick a finger in an entrance!) d) Despite their navigational skills, bees have very tiny brains. They can learn "new things", like how to navigate a maze, but they do not appear to be able to learn "new skills", such as operating a microswitch to receive a few drops of nectar. e) Anecdotal reports of specific individuals who cannot even stand in an apiary without being stung should be analyzed from the standpoint of odor, clothing color, and so on. There has to be a "trigger", since there is simply no other way for the bees to reach a consensus that this person is a threat to any hive, and get defensive. > Has anyone observed a colony react differently to an > inspector or knowledgeable visitor (someone who knows > their way around)? Of course - but not because the bees "know" the person opening their hive. The bees are not disturbed (as much) by someone who manipulates a colony with style and panache. Since the more experienced beekeeper crushes no bees, does not thump about, and moves frames smoothly, no alarm is raised (or the alarm is less pronounced). I have post-mortemed too many bees under a low-power microscope to agree with Alan's statement that "bees are individuals". Yes, there is some "individuality", but many more are apparently identical, even at higher magnification. (A stereo microscope is a big help here, since one can set it up as a comparator, and prepare a "slide" with two bees in identical positions for A/B comparisons. There is a cheap and easy way to at least see the physiological differences between bees without killing them. Buy a headband magnifier like one of the ones one the 2nd row of this web page: http://www.ppcitools.com/mags/bino.htm With one, you can keep your face about a handbreadth away from the top bars of a super, and take a good close look at the bees. Be careful to not breathe on the bees too much, because carbon dioxide from your breath is one of the triggers that make bees think that a mammal is "raiding" their hive. Moreso with AHB. With a cheap pair of binoculars and a steady hand, you could get the same view from a few steps away. 10 x 50 nautical binoculars would be too powerful, use a low-power el-cheapo pair. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:22:12 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Exchange? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good idea. The closest I have come, is for travelers to other areas purchasing local honey and bringing it back, or for those coming from afar bringing some of their local honey as gifts. I have had raw honey from roadside stands in "Big Thicket" in Texas, Tupelo honey from Florida, etc. Also gourmet food specialty shops have quite a variety, but the costs are very high!! Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:57:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Bees are Individuals Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James and All, James wrote: > There has to be a "trigger", since there is simply no other > way for the bees to reach a consensus that this person is > a threat to any hive, and get defensive. I agree with Jim's statement completely. When the honey flow is on and bees are preoccupied many times certain things which would trigger a defensive response are ignored by the bees. The same triggers may not be ignored at other times. Lack of a trigger by the experienced beekeeper is the key. A common topic among long time beekeepers is today's new bee suits. The Brian Sheriff design was field tested with angry Africanized bees. Far superior suits to suits of years gone past when bees are being defensive. I use a *bug Baffler* myself which is a flimsy mosquito netting affair but 10 times cooler in hot weather than a full suit. I hardly ever get through a beekeeping day without a sting with the *bug baffler*. as the netting lays against my bare arms. I always keep a Sheriff suit in the truck in case needed and do use the full suit in winter as they are warmer and protect clothing from propolis. My point is that new beekeepers often do not realize that their suit is taking quite a few stings as they are not receiving the stings. The more venom the more aggressive the bees become. Masking the venom odor is very important when using one of these suits. Pay attention to stingers in your suit and smoke the spot to mask the venom odor. Wash bee suits often to remove venom odor and smell of sweat and body odor. When was the last time you washed your bee suit beekeepers? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Although not a proven issue I personally believe bees sense fear in mammals. Maybe some not yet understood body chemical reaction. Bees always seem to buzz and sting those which show fear around bees. Only an observation of mine. Is fear in mammals a trigger for bees to become defensive? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:23:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Apitherapy for M.S. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A friend has come down with multiple sclerosis. Can anyone recommend a good web site address for coverage of that topic? You can respond to me directly. Many thanks in advance. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:11:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: 4.9mm foundation Mill Maker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is a notification to all: Tom Lazarevich, owner of Tom Industries, the maker of 4.9mm foundation mills for both hand use and assembly line, is in intensive care in a coma with loss of brain function from an aorta anorism/open heart surgery right now! Outlook looks grave and prayers are needed. Cards can be sent to 990 Aster Ave, El Cajon, Calif 92020 Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: > Although not a proven issue I personally believe bees sense fear in > mammals. Maybe some not yet understood body chemical reaction. > Bees always seem to buzz and sting those which show fear around bees. > Only an observation of mine. > > Is fear in mammals a trigger for bees to become defensive? Sure, and for reasons you clearly understand already: a) Fear results in increased respiration, perspiration, etc. b) Fear results in jerky movement, brain-damaged choices, etc. In short, fear makes you act like a less intelligent mammal, and bees are experts at identifying and driving off the less intelligent mammals that poke around their hives. Winne The Pooh had the right idea (but lousy engineering) when he hung onto a party balloon and tried to imitate a cloud in one of his many attempts to get honey from the honey tree, illustrated in this pdf: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/ad092001.pdf I wonder about the "solo kamikaze" effect, where one will have a SINGLE bee fly directly into one's veil with an audible slap for no apparent reason. I have developed a skill at cupping my hands, and clapping my cupped hands to stun (or kill) this single bee as he approaches my face. If done correctly, you never touch the bee, and it drops like a rock. (Don't try this at home unless you have years of playing a "fast reflexes" sport like fencing and tennis, or happen to be a retired Jedi Knight.) Most times, I am not bothered further, but I have experienced a series of these single bees repeat the activity, one at a time, one every few minutes. Perhaps it is the same bee, recovering quickly from the "clap", or because I missed completely, and the bee is making another pass at me. Problem is, I wonder why only ONE bee responds to whatever "trigger" I created, or if this is a bee that was airborne to start, and is responding to simply seeing a creature close to the hive. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:42:21 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Dick said: > ....no matter how apparently similar to another bee it may be, two bees > cannot occupy the same space or time line... This seems "obvious", except in certain n-dimensional theories that are far beyond the scope of a discussion about bees. :) > ...and have exactly the same history or experience. While strictly true, it remains to be shown just how either of the above would have any impact/influence on a bee's actions. > Knowing this and remembering this is one of the things that distinguishes a > master beekeeper from just any other beekeeper. Disagree. A "master beekeeper" would avoid such touchy-freely statements that presume some sort of mystical insight into the psyche of bees, and stick to practical statements that can be proven true or false by experiment or experience. Here's another way to think about bees. A single bee is nothing more than a wind-up toy with good sensory apparatus and an onboard navigation system. Put enough of them together, and the net effect of each bee's reaction to blind stimulus-response "hard-wiring" is impressive. But all bees that wander into my honey house when the door is open still unconditionally seek out the southern floor-to ceiling window, and use the one-way bee escape, while NONE exit via the same door they entered, even if it is left open. Wind-up toys. Slaves to instinct. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:55:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Wings longer then body In-Reply-To: <3D2AD26D.5713A29C@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Bill Truesdell wrote: Just curious but are the wings longer or the bodies shorter? I note differences in body length all the time in my hives. Reply: Both if one actually looks close, but I do this in selection for our small blacks. Not the yellowish side! But you should note differences in body length all the time in today's hive due to the variability of all the different matings of the queen. But in breeding you need consistency of mating within inndividual hives selected for grafting. Bill Truesdell also wrote: And is there any reason that there would not be variability in bees, even of the same race or queen? Especially naturally mated or the conditions in the hive when the bees were developing. I would expect that you would see longer wings, longer bodies, etc.. Reply: No, it is to be expected! But in grafting and breeding, the goal is control in mating to get accepted what you want! You cannot get this with short winged bees and longer bodied bees, for they are at mating disadvantage and fly slower. Maybe okay for insemination, but then in insemination today, even colour means little, yet colour is everything, with all other body conformity being right, when one is practicing good out-breeding for specific goals. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Apidologie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Those interested in the Cape bee problem in SOUTH AFRICA will find the following abstract interesting. http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/inra-apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf Although the abstracts main focus is cell size and varroa d. quite a bit of information can be gleaned about pseudo-clones. I remember before varroa hit the U.S. I had trouble getting my fellow beekeepers to even discuss varroa. The situation changed when varroa began to ravage bee outfit after bee outfit. Varroa was all they wanted to talk about. It will take another couple decades in my opinion for the pseudo-clones IN SOUTH AFRICA to parasitise all other races. After reading the abstract several times trying to understand the abstract I want to be the first to make a prediction that in 20 years time the pseudo-clones will be the only bee in South Africa UNLESS the capensis problem is solved. BEE-L is forever (hopefully) so lets see in 20 years if Bob Harrison's prediction in 2002 proves correct. If you look at the charts presented you can see the pseudo-clones handle varroa better. The article states with the pseudo-clones very few fertilised varroa are produced which would result in very slow ,if any, growth of the varroa population. One interesting chart presented by Martin (2002) showed that pseudo-clones fore wings were longer than A.m. scutellata workers by around 8%. Martin does say that reducing cell size as a varroa control will *probabbly* fail to be effective and gives the reason for his conclusion.. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:43:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To BEE-L Somehow quotes from a private message I sent to Jim this morning appeared in part on this list this afternoon, attributed to an 'Alan' Dick. Since portions of what appears to be my original private message to Jim were snipped, used selectively in a post to BEE-L, and presented as my position, I think it is only proper that I attach the full text of my original message to Jim below. I'm also attaching Jim's comments (posted previously to BEE-L) below that for completeness, and so that readers can consider -- and compare -- what I really said about the physical (no mention of psyche) differences that can and do exist between individual bees. Readers may wish to consider the significance of those differences. I know from long personal experience that understanding them can mean the difference between success and failure as a beekeeper. I hope that these ideas are useful to the list, and I thank Jim for proving my most difficult point so elegantly. allen --- full text of my private message to Jim follows --- > I have post-mortemed too many bees under a low-power > microscope to agree with Alan's statement that > "bees are individuals". Yes, there is some "individuality", > but many more are apparently identical, even at higher > magnification. (A stereo microscope is a big help here, > since one can set it up as a comparator, and prepare a > "slide" with two bees in identical positions for A/B comparisons. Not too sure what you are disagreeing with, since you go on to recommend comparing two individuals to prove similarity. Yes, similarity between hive-mates is obvious, but it that similarity is too often taken for granted and assumed to be an identity . The important point being made is that each bee IS an individual. It may be a member of a cadre of similar bees, but no matter how apparently similar to another bee it may be, two bees cannot occupy the same space or time line and have exactly the same history or experience. Knowing this and remembering this is one of the things that distinguishes a master beekeeper from just any other beekeeper. Obviously bees from different hives and regions are likely to differ quite markedly, but within a hive there are also huge differences. The degree of difference between two bees in any given hive depends on a number of factors, including time and date, the season of the year, patriline, nutrition (and there is evidence that bees favour some larvae over others), any parasitism that occurs during pupation, any accidents that occur during the larval or pupal stages, any local pollution of the section of comb where the egg is laid, etc, etc. Although -- for many purposes -- the subtle differences are not important, or even readily detectable, the differences exist. Sometimes they are not important, but sometimes they are essential to understanding what is going on in the hive. > There is a cheap and easy way to at least see the physiological > differences between bees without killing them. Buy a headband > magnifier like one of the ones one the 2nd row of this web page: Good idea. I personally just use the cheap reading glasses that are available at any drug store for under ten dollars. Keeping an assortment of powers on hand permit examining things at various distances and magnifications. I like the thin ones that sit on the end of the nose because they permit both close-up viewing, and also normal functioning. The user can peer thru them for a close-up or glance over the top for walking around allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ------- Jim's reply, sent to BEE-L, not to me ------- Alan Dick said: > ....no matter how apparently similar to another bee it may be, two bees > cannot occupy the same space or time line... This seems "obvious", except in certain n-dimensional theories that are far beyond the scope of a discussion about bees. :) > ...and have exactly the same history or experience. While strictly true, it remains to be shown just how either of the above would have any impact/influence on a bee's actions. > Knowing this and remembering this is one of the things that distinguishes a > master beekeeper from just any other beekeeper. Disagree. A "master beekeeper" would avoid such touchy-freely statements that presume some sort of mystical insight into the psyche of bees, and stick to practical statements that can be proven true or false by experiment or experience. Here's another way to think about bees. A single bee is nothing more than a wind-up toy with good sensory apparatus and an onboard navigation system. Put enough of them together, and the net effect of each bee's reaction to blind stimulus-response "hard-wiring" is impressive. But all bees that wander into my honey house when the door is open still unconditionally seek out the southern floor-to ceiling window, and use the one-way bee escape, while NONE exit via the same door they entered, even if it is left open. Wind-up toys. Slaves to instinct. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:22:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Bees are Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >e -- what I >really said about the physical (no mention of psyche) differences that can >and do exist between individual bees. Readers may wish to consider the >significance of those differences. I know from long personal experience >that understanding them can mean the difference between success and failure >as a beekeeper. > Hi Allen and All, This is too good. I just finished my second long day in my bee hives. Observation of a hive and its workers takes time. 20 to 30 minutes per hive if your fast.Looking at a bee under a microscope will not tell you much. Watch how they stand and walk will tell you a lot. All workers do NOT walk the same. They do not stand the same either.Check how many are rubbing there antennae a lot. Not all workers are equal and it is not just genetics. Its complex to a point that we can only get a piece here and there with research. Understanding bees will not come out of a book. Allen has put his years in and I know I have and still learning everyday. Those that turn over every rock will do well. > > >> > > > >. The important >point being made is that each bee IS an individual. It may be a member of a >cadre of similar bees, but no matter how apparently similar to another bee >it may be, two bees cannot occupy the same space or time line and have >exactly the same history or experience. Knowing this and remembering this >is one of the things that distinguishes a master beekeeper from just any >other beekeeper. > >Obviously bees from different hives and regions are likely to differ quite >markedly, but within a hive there are also huge differences. The degree of >difference between two bees in any given hive depends on a number of >factors, including time and date, the season of the year, patriline, >nutrition (and there is evidence that bees favour some larvae over others), >any parasitism that occurs during pupation, any accidents that occur during >the larval or pupal stages, any local pollution of the section of comb >where the egg is laid, etc, etc. > >Although -- for many purposes -- the subtle differences are not important, >or even readily detectable, the differences exist. Sometimes they are not >important, but sometimes they are essential to understanding what is going >on in the hive. > > > >> > >Disagree. A "master beekeeper" would avoid such touchy-freely >statements that presume some sort of mystical insight into the >psyche of bees, and stick to practical statements that can be >proven true or false by experiment or experience. > > > jim > Beekeeping is art and science. Not just one. We are working on sound and trying to graphically illustrate how much man is understanding by the sound of a hive. If you put enough hours in beehives , you can tell what the problem is , soon as you lift the lid. I have even done it in the dark for a friend. Its not star wars , its tuned into the bees. I don't have the answer . Maybe some day man will back down off of his high perch and let nature lead him to some answers. >Enjoy the wonders of nature. We are part of it , not above it. Your bees will show you the way if you look close enough. You will see a difference in your individual bees. Start with spring bees and summer bees. See witch ones stands up straighter for starters. You could write a book on it. > Very Best Regards Roy > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:40:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beenetuk Host Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Apis-Uk July 2002 Newsletter The Editor of Apis-UK David Cramp would like to thank all of you that re-subscribed to the Apis-UK announcement mailing list. We had to update our software to a more reliable mailing list system. I believe that we lost over 400 members to the list in the process. So please tell your beekeeping friends to re-subscribe to Apis-UK if you haven't received this notification message directly. The July issue prints out to 16 A4 sides. Contents: Editorial, News and bee research, Dates for your diary, The bee press. Articles Possibly apiculture's first natural prophylactic. More for the war against Varroa - Stan Clare. Normal nucleus hive - John Yates Of cabbages and kings - Mathew Allen Out of the woods: the beginnings of a beekeeper - Ian Coleman Letters, Historical note To Read the Apis-UK newsletters go to: http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters/index.htm To add or remove your email address from the Apis-UK newsletter can be done from the above URL. Apis-UK beekeeping monthly web Newsletter URL: http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk Hosted by Beedata.com Regards Steven Turner (web editor) .. When you go in search of honey all you get is spam. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:47:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Digest Ivan Pechanec Subject: "Oppressed workers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This week's Time magazine has an article on vegetarians. One of the comments was the some people won't eat honey because the worker bees are oppressed. Being a newby to this business, I am lost as to how I am "oppressing" my bees. They seem to come and go as they please. Can anyone shed some light on this comment? Ivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: "Oppressed workers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Digest Ivan Pechanec said: > One of the comments was the some people won't eat honey > because the worker bees are oppressed. This sounds more like a strict "vegan" than a vegetarian. Vegans can be strange people. They are mostly emaciated unhealthy-looking folks who seem to have constant colds, and never accept my invitations to run with me on my daily 5K. (Hehehe, I pull that one on everyone who is a health nut of any variety. Funny how none accept the offer.) My circles of friends include a few radical vegans who dress entirely in black, live in Greenwich Village, engage in long discussions about the writings of Marcel Prost, and make a living in the "arts" as in "performance artists" or art dealers. I first became aware of "vegans and honey" when my wife deleted several names from the list of people I was sending 3-lb jars of honey along with their Christmas cards. Their point of view starts with the perfectly rational statement that vegans do not eat ANY animal products or by-products, and bees are clearly animals. I have no problem with someone who chooses to live (and eat) a certain way, and I can even prepare an appropriate menu when a party includes a dinner guest who wishes to "eat macrobiotic". No big hairy deal. BUT, the more radical-fascists among vegans seem to want to politicize everything, and try to convert others to their way of thinking. This thinking is a mix of semi-accurate observations and fuzzy thinking, as follows: a) Artificial insemination of queens is "rape" to vegans. b) Re-queening is murder to vegans. c) Manipulations intended to prevent swarming means that beekeepers are "keeping the bees prisoner" in the eyes of vegans. (It matters not to them that swarms would likely not survive in the wild for long...) d) The vegans have done their homework, and have latched onto the rare practice of killing off a colony in fall in the far north, where overwintering is so difficult. They have also latched onto the misguided idea that killing off every fall and starting from packages every spring makes "economic sense", and therefore think that it is much more common than it is. e) Vegans do not understand "combining colonies", and think that this always results in one queen being killed by the other. f) The harvesting of honey is "stealing", since it makes the bees work harder and longer. Feeding syrup to bees is also terrible, because it is a "poor replacement" for what the bees "should be eating", in the view of vegans, and sugar is also verboten for vegans (something about animal bone being used in the processing of sugar, I do not recall, due to my eyes having glazed over and my mind started wandering by the time this point was reached when I asked a vegan about honey at a charity benefit one evening.) g) Even the movable-frame hives are "unnatural prisons", since the vegans feel that stationary comb is what the bees "want". h) Vegans also want to blame beekeepers for their winter colony losses, not understanding that we feel badly about this ourselves, and don't like it either. I list more points, but you get the idea, and to be honest, my brain overheated and seized up after listening to this sort of drivel for a while, so I'm not sure I remember. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:55:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > Despite our efforts some went on to make drone layers, but most mated > and laid, apparently satisfactorily despite their small size. However, > at least half of them then superceded within a few weeks, I believe this to be a survival strategy, the supercedure queen, being properly raised and thus 'normal'. Meanwhile the bees have had the output of the scrub queen as a 'tide over' workforce. I see it happen quite often in AMM types and I am no longer disturbed by it, because the final result is OK. > These tiny ones were almost impossible to spot unless > you knew what you were looking for and anticipated their presence. What do the legs look like on these tiny specimens? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:37:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: oppressed bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am guilty of manipulating and managing my bees so they produce an excess of pollen and honey that they normally wouldn't produce. I am also guilty of increasing the dwindling bee population ,by "capturing "swarms and splitting hives,that is needed to pollinate many trees and plants to assure their survival. In exchange they are cared for in a way that prevents them from dying or being "murdered" by mites, skunks, and other natural diseases. If this is what the vegans refer to as "oppression" than I am guilty as charged-and enjoying it. Denise Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:18:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barbara Remnant Subject: Oppressed Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Ficcher wrote "Vegans can be strange people. They are mostly emaciated unhealthy-looking folks who seem to have constant colds," My children are vegetarians and have several vegan friends, and if you think vegans a strange lot, wait til you meet one of the folk who will not eat anything unless it give it self willingly from the earth. ie: drops from a tree, must not be plucked; cannot be dug like potatoes, but like onions must push up and let go. However they are not likely to be around long! Barb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Honey is not vegan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The whole vegan discussion is old hat and nothing new has been added, 'cept more name calling. For the full vegan perspective see: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm We beekeepers will have to agree to disagree with yon vegans. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I eat vegetables! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:18:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees as individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/07/02 05:01:54 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << a) Fear results in increased respiration, perspiration, etc. >> I don't think perspiration of itself is a trigger. On hot days sweat has dropped from my brow onto the top bars of a hive without provoking any noticeable reaction. The sweat may be a way of distributing human pheromones (panic is very infectious) that the bees may also react to. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:22:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nancy Dalrymple Subject: pollen traps and wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am using a pollen trap for the first time. I put the trap on the 15th = of June and have been collecting daily. I kill about 2-3 wax moth worms = everyday. Does anyone else think that the trap provides a nesting place = for wax moths. It is a very strong hive with 4 supers on it. I have = not seen an infestation in the hive........any input. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:20:06 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Bees as individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << a) Fear results in increased respiration, perspiration, etc. >> > > I don't think perspiration of itself is a trigger. . . . Anti-perspirant may be, however. Wendell Smith, who was Ohio State Bee Inspector for many years, thought that perfumes and such caused problems in the bee yard. I learned early-on that a black felt hat will soon look like a pincushion (full of stingers) and is not acceptable around bees. Also probably a good idea to not have the odor of dogs or horses on your hands or clothing when working bees. I have not observed any conflict with sheep that sometimes walk through the flight path at one end of the pasture near the bees. Interesting discussion & comments. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Do bees get to know their keepers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Do bees get to know their keepers? I am pretty sure they don't. I don't think a bee "knows" what a human being is, or any other large animal , for that matter -- outside of "knowing" that they are about to have their hive trashed by this creature. On the other hand, do beekeepers get to know their bees? Boy, if you don't, you will suffer. I know there are hives that on certain days, I can work them without smoke wearing nothing but shoes and shorts. At other times, I wouldn't approach any hive without coveralls and gloves. Fact is, being *good* at handling bees is like being *good* at playing the guitar. You can't fake it. And then, being prepared for an accident. This is where the whole clothing thing comes in. Once bees are angry, they use odor cues to find the offender. Up close, their eyesight is poor and if you wear khaki, and stand still, they may not be able to distinguish you from the surroundings. Dark close and jerky motions make you obvious. But not as much as certain odors. Dirty long hair is a particular problem; they seem to smell it. Maybe not dripping sweat, but old sweat is trouble. I don't think these odors anger the bees, but simply make it easier for them to find you once they are angry. I believe that clean clothes and hair will make your bee work go easier, but above all, it is WAY you handle them that makes all the difference in the world. It isn't so much slowness, as being steady, deliberate, and respectful. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:31:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees as individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > I don't think perspiration of itself is a trigger. On hot days sweat has > dropped from my brow onto the top bars of a hive without provoking any > noticeable reaction. I do not think that liquid sweat is the problem, more likely the bacteria in sweaty armpits cause the smell that the bees react to. Over many years I have had bees attack the strap of my wristwatch. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:09:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: pollen traps and wax moths In-Reply-To: <002701c2294b$020a2320$28e885d0@PGTC.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:22 PM 7/11/02 -0500, you wrote: >I kill about 2-3 wax moth worms everyday. Does anyone else think that the >trap provides a nesting place for wax moths. Pretty typical in my experience. The traps provide a safe haven the bees can't get to (by design). Not normally a problem as the hive is typically strong enough to take care of any that get into the hive, and normally the traps are checked often enough to eliminate any found there. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: pollen traps and wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Nancy and All, Nancy wrote: I am using a pollen trap for the first time. I put the trap on the 15th of June and have been collecting daily. I kill about 2-3 wax moth worms everyday. If you are getting wax worms crawling around in your collected pollen then your pollen has wax moth eggs in it. I assume a female wax moth is able to enter your trap and deposit eggs. Not knowing the design of your trap I can not say if the eggs might be dropping down from above. Because of the low number hatching this might be the case. Wax moths enter hives from time to time and busy bees will ignore the moths at the hieght of the honey flow and be content to handle the problem by removing eggs and larva. Possibly a few missed eggs are dropping down into your trap and hatching. I believe Lloyd Spears trap has a cover on top to prevent debre and wax moth eggs from entering from above. Anyway moth eggs in pollen is a problem unless you are planning on freezing and do not mind consuming a few moth eggs. Wax moth eggs are black in color and usually placed in large numbers. Wax moth eggs are difficult to remove by both machine and by hand. All pollen collected will need to be frozen to kill any eggs. You will have a problem with your pollen in storage if you simply dry and store as the wax moth eggs will hatch and ruin your pollen. Exactly like when wax moth eggs in comb honey hatch and ruin your comb honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oppressed Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Remnant wrote: > > James Ficcher wrote "Vegans can be strange people. They are mostly > emaciated unhealthy-looking folks who seem to have > constant colds," > snip...not eat anything unless it give it self willingly from the earth. ie: > drops from a tree, must not be plucked; cannot be dug like potatoes, but > like onions must push up and let go. However they are not likely to be > around long! > > Barb Recently anthropologist archeologists reported that mankind suffered a dramatic drop in health when it shifted from a mostly meat diet and became agrarian and ate veggies. There was bone loss, bad teeth and early death. So there is truth in what both Jim and Barb wrote. The whole area of nutrition and healthful foods is constantly in flux. It appears to be a very inexact science, mainly because of the variability of the human diet and individual lifestyles. Vegetarian diets are touted as healthful, but recent discoveries seem to indicate otherwise. Often, when scientists dig deeper, it is the lifestyle differences that can make most of the difference ( usually exercise and moderation ). In some recent findings it appears that the most healthful diet is high protein and drinking milk, both of which were on the bad diet list. A low fat diet has been shown to be as unhealthy as a high fat. Reminds me of the movie "Sleeper" with Woody Allen who is awoken from freezing in the distant future. They tell him in order to get back to good health quickly they need to feed him the most perfect, healthful meal known to man, a Big Mac, fries and milkshake. It would be interesting to see where honey, being stung, and the lifestyle of beekeepers fit into the the anecdotal evidence that beekeepers live longer than the general populace. Maybe it is none of the above but because we eat Big Macs, fries... Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:54:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Wax Moths and No Pest Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sick and tired of losing good brood comb to worms (who isn't) and have wondered if anyone has insights on using the reintroduced Shell No Pest strips or their cousins to protect brood comb in storage. I've checked the archives and find only one reference to NoPest strips, and it indicates they're quite deadly to bees (killing a colony out of an overstuffed chair in Australia). The pesticide in the strip is a vapor, so traces of it hopefully would evaporate just as paradichlorobenzene (Para-Moth) does. The strips use the organophosphate pesticide dichlorvos, aka DDVP. Cal Dept of Pesticide Regulation moved in 1999 to deregulate their use near humans for fear of toxic reactions, a continuation of CA's "no safe threshold" approach to all chemicals. According to Jean-Mari Peltier, DPR Chief Deputy Director in 1999 "Our action is not based on illness data or known problems, but on a risk assessment. Risk assessments are inherently theoretical since they are based in large part on extrapolations of effects seen in animal studies. However, we do have concerns about exposure of children which can be addressed by removing pest strips from home use." The US Dept of Defense won't allow the strips where infants, elderly, or ill persons would be exposed constantly, such as patient rooms or day rooms. The strips are approved for hanging in the presence of grains in storage ( http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/ENTML2/MF917.PDF updated July 2002 ). The US National Park Service and other museums use it for preservation of museum artifacts and have found it effective against all life stages of target insects, although there are negative reactions with some materials such as leather and adhesives ( http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/publications/conserveogram/02-04.pdf ). Insights anyone? Logan E TN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:23:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oppressed Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill and All, Bill wrote: > It would be interesting to see where honey, being stung, and the > lifestyle of beekeepers fit into the the anecdotal evidence that > beekeepers live longer than the general populace. Most of the talk of beekeepers living a longer and healthier life comes from a National Geographic article about the oldest living people in the USSR years ago. Further *anecdotal* evidence can be seen by observing the age of the old bee masters. Dr. C.C. Miller lived to be 90 years old when the average life span for a male in the U.S. was years younger (one example). Mr. Mcburney of Quinter, Kansas which gave a presentation at the Kansas Honey producers meeting a couple years ago still keeps bees and sells honey and turned 100 a year ago. I would have guessed his age at around 75 by the way he *walked* and talked. Many will say other factors are involved which I cannot argue with but as a general rule beekeepers live longer and are healthier in their old age. It seems the beekeeper needs to be at least a sideliner or larger. The reason is because many hobby beekeepers may only receive a few stings per year and might spend the rest of the year in a UNHEALTHY office environment. Most of the longer lived beekeepers I have read about or met were larger than hobby and lived in rural settings. As for the stings. My whole family has arthritis problems as rheumatoid arthritis runs in the family *all except me*. My Doctor has tried to pin arthritis on a couple of ailments (aches and pains) of mine. To prove him wrong we made a bet and I had the blood work done for arthritis. The tests came back negative. The arthritis pills he *was* giving me were causing headaches. After I watched the movie *Ulee's Gold* I figured out what was causing my aches and pains which seemed to go away when the bee season was over and start when the bee season started. Although only a large sideline beekeeper compared to my friends I start receiving bee stings from around March when the bees start flying till October when the bees stop flying. I only wear enough protection as I feel necessary. At times I figure wrong and pay the price. When you carry the full immunity like I do and others using bee sting therapy will agree to. Once the hurt of the sting is passed at the end of the day I can not tell you how many stings I have received or even their location. I DISLIKE chigger bites and tick bites over bee stings as bee stings keep my immunity up and *I believe* helps keep *Arthur* (arthritis) away. Bee stings go away but chigger and tick bites can annoy for weeks. Is it possible that all the chigger bites and tick bites beekeepers receive adds to their longevity? Kidding! I keep weeds down, use *skin so soft* and at times spray myself with deet but still am embarrassed to expose my legs in public at times in shorts this time of year. If a disease was killing all the chiggers and ticks in the world I would not lift a finger to save the chiggers and ticks! Ticks are so bad this year I can sit in the bee truck and pull 10 or so off my bee suit after working certain yards. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Wax Moths and No Pest Strips PLEASE! Do not even think of using any pesticides in or around bee hives except those registered for such purposes! There are effective treatments for wax moths, varroa, etc. (Call your bee supply company) They may not be perfect, but to go "OFF LABEL" is unsafe, foolish, and illegal. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:01:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bees attacking wristwatches In-Reply-To: <00c901c22999$a654b6e0$a424e150@cushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dave Cushman wrote: >I do not think that liquid sweat is the problem, more likely the bacteria in >sweaty armpits cause the smell that the bees react to. Over many years I >have had bees attack the strap of my wristwatch. That happened to me a lot until I realized that the black color of the strap and of the watch --- with two shiny "eyes" on the body of the watch --- could be perceived as a predator. No more wearing watches when working hives! -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:55:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian & all > That happened to me a lot until I realized that the black color of > the strap and of the watch --- with two shiny "eyes" on the body of > the watch Not quite the same as my case... It has occurred with or without gloves and the straps were jointed stainless steel links. I put it down to sweat having gotten into the joints of the strap. With some colonies I had many years ago, they used to try and burrow under the elastic of the calico cuff to try and get at the watch. Removing the watch from my arm and holding it in front of the hive entrance, brought forth a frenzy of attack like that described on black leather lures waved in front of AHB. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:30:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Oppressed Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Further *anecdotal* evidence can be seen by observing the age of the old bee > masters. Not to argue, but it seems to me that a person has to be in better than average condition to start in bees, then stay in good shape and good health to persevere long in bees on any large scale at all. Those who don't meet these criteria drop by the wayside early in the race and the finishers are preselected from physically superior individuals. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:39:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Wax Moths and No Pest Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm sick and tired of losing good brood comb to worms (who isn't) and > have wondered if anyone has insights on using the reintroduced Shell No > Pest strips or their cousins to protect brood comb in storage. I've > checked the archives and find only one reference to NoPest strips, and > it indicates they're quite deadly to bees... If you are talking about what I think you are, these contain Vapona. Vapona strips are extremely deadly to bees and if they are placed in the vicinity of combs -- even in the same room -- the combs are never suitable for use again. A large beekeeper who shall remain nameless (no it wasn't me this time:) ordered five hundred queens for splitting and they arrived just fine right before the weekend. He had to go a way on important business (fishing, or some such thing) so he decided that the hall closet in his home would be a perfect place to leave the queens for two days in their shipping boxes, since it was dark and the temperature was moderate. What he had not considered was that his wife had put a Vapona No-Pest strip in there to keep the moths out of her furs and woollens... allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bees attacking wristwatches In-Reply-To: <002901c229d6$0c18fea0$5349e150@cushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dave Cushman replied: >[Wristwatch stinging] has occurred with or without gloves and the >straps were jointed stainless >steel links. I put it down to sweat having gotten into the joints of the >strap. With some colonies I had many years ago, they used to try and burrow >under the elastic of the calico cuff to try and get at the watch. > >Removing the watch from my arm and holding it in front of the hive entrance, >brought forth a frenzy of attack like that described on black leather lures >waved in front of AHB. Sure, but think of all that reflection off the stainless steel links! What a great study that could lead to. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anais Nin * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:17:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wax Moths and No Pest Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why not just use PDB, since it kills wax moth larva very well? George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches Adrian writes: two shiny "eyes" on the body of the watch --- could be perceived as a predator Comment: I think bees defintiely home in on eyes. I have seen them zoom in and try to sting my eyes often enough to believe that the gleam in a mammalian eye elicits a response from them. Now that I must wear reading glasses, I can say that glasses (that is, without a veil) is even worse. I gave up wearing a watch around bees many years ago. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:47:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Oppressed Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob - You wrote: > If a disease was killing all the chiggers and ticks in the world I would not > lift a finger to save the chiggers and ticks! Ticks are so bad this year I > can sit in the bee truck and pull 10 or so off my bee suit after working > certain yards. Don't you have fire-ants in Missouri? Down here in Louisiana we have lots of them, and it seems that ticks and redbugs ("chiggers") are much less common than they used to be. Personally, I prefer fire-ants. They may be taking out some new-hatched snakes too. If so, good for them. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fire ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walter and All, Walter wrote: > Don't you have fire-ants in Missouri? Down here in Louisiana we have lots of them Personally, I prefer fire-ants. They may be taking out some new-hatched snakes too. If so, good for them. I haven't seen any fire ants in Missouri unless a few hitch hiked back on bees from Texas. I grew up around fire ants in Florida. old Timers used to say your best hive would be the hive close to the fire ant nest. I never sat a hive close to a fire ant nest but I have watched Texas beekeepers set a semi load and never give the location of a fire ant nest any concern. As a kid running through the woods in Florida barefoot we would run through a fire ant nest every once in a while by accident. . I was always amazed how many would get on us . Real eye opener. red welts. About the only time fire ants bothered us was when we stepped on the nest. I would not want to work a beehive standing on a fire ant nest . Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a difference in the way a bee responds to a wristwatch with hands compared to a wristwatch with liquid crystal display? A wristwatch with visibly moving parts might be perceived as more of a threat than one whose face moves in a less "jerky" manner. A combination of factors may explain why bees attack wristwatches: 1) The strong smell of sweat, both stale and fresh on the band of the watch. (Metal watch bands can smell just as strongly as leather ones if you don't clean them.) What happens with plastic watchbands? 2) The gleam of the metal surrounding the watch or the reflection of light off the clear plastic or glass face of the watch, the so-called crystal. (As Dave Cushman and Peter Borst have said.)This might partly explain why they sometimes attack eyeglasses as well. 3) The color of the watchband or the face of the watch or both. 4) The green luminous paint used to illuminate the hands of some watches. (I've heard this paint is faintly radioactive, but I may be wrong!) Could luminescence and radioactivity in some watches play a role? After all, bees can see ultraviolet light. Couldn't they be supersensitive to luminous dials too? 5) The steady "jerking" movement of the watch's second hand, which might make the watch appear to be "alive" and therefore a possible predator. 6) The vibrations of the watch, should a bee who has been attracted by the smell of the band and the gleam of the metal and crystal face land on the watch itself. Aren't the vibrations of empty wax honeycombs thought to play a role in bee communication, that is, when they are doing their dances in the hive? (Adrian Wenner humor me!) Couldn't a watch's vibrations be interpreted as a hostile communication of some sort? 7) The eyelike qualities of a watch's face. (As Peter Borst has said.) Maybe the bees perceive the watch as a human eye? An eye on the wrist! In mammals, the eye is usually surrounded by eyelashes which move rapidly and frequently across the surface of the eye. Okay, the movement of a watch's second hand across the face (or "eye") is regular whereas the movement of a mammal's eyelashes across its eyes is irregular, but might the second hand be seen as some sort of eyelash? 8) Has anyone noticed how on a farm flies are attracted to the eyes of horses and cows? Their eyes often have some discharge around them which the flies appear to be feeding off. Would a bee, like a fly, be interested in drinking the fluid produced by an eye? Does the smell and appearance of a sweaty wristwatch mimic an "unwashed" animal eye? Do bees drink human sweat? I hope this isn't too disgusting to think about. 9) Are bees first attracted to a wristwatch because they think it is an eye or because of the smell and sight of sweat or both, but then become hostile because they perceive some aspect of the watch's mechanism to be a threat? Lastly, would bees attack a wristwatch that is hidden from view? By a shirt sleeve, for example? This might put a dent in the eye theory. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick postscript to my last post. Would bees be as likely or less likely to attack a wristwatch that is NOT working? While my eyelash theory is a bit fanciful, the mammalian eye does move. The eye rotates in its socket, the pupil dilates and constricts, and the eyelids move back and forth over the eye's surface. Tear ducts produce fluid similar to sweat. However, an eye doesn't tick, whir, or vibrate. Some watches do. Could the bees be attracted to the aqueous, eyelike qualities of a watch face, but be sufficiently puzzled by the sound of the watch's mechanism to see it as a threat? Do they confuse the whir and hum of the watch with the buzz of a predatory insect? One wind up toy attacking another! Some eyeglasses appear to magnify the human eye when you look at the person who is wearing them. This might explain why bees appear to be attracted to eyeglasses. It makes a lot of sense for an angry bee to try to sting a mammal in the eyes. With two well-placed stings, two tiny insects can blind a creature a hundred times their size, making it almost impossible for it to rob their hive. There are many experiments that the amateur (and professional) scientist could do on this subject without spending a great deal of money. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:53:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian > Sure, but think of all that reflection off the stainless steel > links! Not in this case... Brushed finish, with rather coarse grain... Very little reflection. I used the words 'frenzy of attack ' in a previous post, I should really have said 'frenzy of mobbing'. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:19:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark & all I reckon we may be trying to read into this more than there may be actual substance. A visible watch that has an LCD display may look very different to a bee, because the elements of the display are flashing rapidly (our persistance of vision sees a static view). The three watches that I can remember wearing, were... 1, square, brushed stainless, LCD display in part, but analogue hands against a grey face. Brushed stainless strap. 2, circular, polished stainless bezel, white face, strikingly bold hands, (the reason for purchase), battery operated. Same strap as ( 1 ) 3, circular, narrow gold bezel, figures on a narrow white annular face, central area cut away so that clockwork parts are visible (skeleton watch), spring driven. Strap same as ( 1 ) for part of life, currently has a black plastic 'divers' strap in an attemp to make it less absorbant/retentive of sweat. Subjectively the black plastic strap receives less attention than the stainless bracelet, but it may not be a fair comparison, because I handle fewer bees these days than I used to. I have always been of the opinion that smell was the prime mover in this behaviour. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:27:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees and wristwatches Comments: cc: Mark Hoguet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark The most marked attention that my wristwatch got was many years ago, and was at a time when the watch was not visible at all to the bees. I go along with pairs of eyes being some sort of recognition. Some colonies have individual bees that will stare at you from about 450 mm in front of your face, and keep station with you if you move. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Individuals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some people think of bees as little computor type creatures that are all = programed basically the same. Ive been watching a bee for the last = couple of weeks feeding on the candy in a discarded queen cage. After = seeing it a couple days in a row I marked it to be sure it was the same = bee. It has been two weeks now and that bees is always there. We are on = a major flow right now and you would think that she would get out and = forage like everybody else. I havent seen any other bees on the candy = just the one. I also saw a drone come back to the hive covered in = pollen, whats that all about, a gay drone perhaps. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 05:18:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little/Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to be a killjoy, but I work with bees several times a week with no gloves and with my wrist watch on. I've never had a sting on or around the band. Maybe it's different somehow. It's just a cheap WallyWorld digital with a black woven nylon band with some fake leather sown in a strip down the middle. It has a small silver colored buckle to hold it on. Just a thought, but maybe most bee stings occur with leather bands. I've heard about the watch band issue for years, but have never experienced it. The only other thing different about my watch is I wear it with the face on the inside part of my wrist - maybe that's it. Ok everyone, turn your watches around and see what happens. :-) Mark in West Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches In-Reply-To: <002901c229d6$0c18fea0$5349e150@cushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are you sure it was the strap and not the watch itself? Is it possible the bees can detect the frequency used to control the watch? On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Adrian & all > > > That happened to me a lot until I realized that the black color of > > the strap and of the watch --- with two shiny "eyes" on the body of > > the watch > It has occurred with or without gloves and the straps were jointed stainless > steel links. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: fire ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: [BEE-L] fire ants I forgot to mention -- fire-ants sometimes do a pretty good job of cleaning out wax-moth larvae from dead-out boxes. Just set the box on an ant-hill. Walter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:25:17 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: fire ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I visited a well known beekeeper in Texas, and learned up close and personal about fire ants. He said "don't step on them far ants" By the time I understood that he really meant they were very close, I got the message !! There seemed to be lots of their hills throughout the bee yard. The only thing was to avoid stepping on them EDW. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:50:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Ross Rounds The two most common reasons for not having a success with Ross Rounds supers are: 1. Putting a super on top of two deeps. Yes, two deeps does help (a great deal) in controlling swarming, but if faced with an alternative bees will always put honey in drawn comb before drawing new comb. Practically, this means that before starting to draw the comb in the Ross Rounds super, the bees will first fill the top deep with 80 pounds of honey! By then, the flow may be over. Shake all the bees into one deep and put the Ross Round super on top. (I put three on top!) 2. The second most common mistake is to not use the strongest hive a beekeeper has. Look at www.rossrounds.com, as well as in the Bee-L archives. Producing comb honey, and specifically Ross Rounds, should be one of the greatest thrills a beekeeper can have. Don't hesitate to contact me with any further questions. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:10:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Richard said... > Are you sure it was the strap and not the watch itself? With hindsight and not originally paying that much attention, I guess around the edges of the watch, but not the glass itself. A greater density of activity on the strap than the watch, but I would not guess any numbers. > Is it possible the bees can detect the frequency > used to control the watch? If you are talking about battery powered watches I think this is unlikely on two counts as the xtal oscilator runs at a handful of MHz and the power involved is very low indeed, so any radiated signal would be difficult for any system to detect. A ticking clockwork watch can be heard at many feet in favourable conditions (by humans that is), I am not sure what the effect would be on the hairs on the bee's exoskeleton, I guess pretty small. A surprising amount of traffic for a trivial topic! Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:34:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Is your watch clockwork (watchwork) or electric? They seem to dislike electrical apparatus. I sometimes put a miniature tape recorder on the roof of the next hive to the one I am working on so I can dictate notes and the recorder is usually heavily buzzed by the bees. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:38:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: wristwatch thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been half heartedly reading this forum but htis thread got my attention. The first and so far only time I worked my hive without gloves I was quickly stung on my left wrist twice. I attributed it to being my black color, not the watch. Neat to read other opinions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Allen Dick has asked me in the past and even posted it here concerning 4.9mm foundation, that I take some bees and place them back onto 5.4 or bigger combs to see what happens. Do they get badly with mites again! Well I think this is better course of action in my mind. Erik Osterlund just found out the following information and sent it to me and others: Erik said: Well I feel I can tell you now what happened to the plastic foundation with 6.0 mm cell size originally intended for worker brood I found hidden away.I was amazed at the cell size. Dave Cushekman suggested I put in in one of my 4.9 hives to see what they would do with it. he suspected drone brood.You know I did so and they drew perfectly nice comb out of it, well almost, not at the edges. I put it between two brood frames. And out came a perfect drone comb. The colony has been producing nice normal small drones the whole season from it. You really see a lot of drones with wings longer than abdomen. The size is not like a mini drone like from a drone layer queen pr egglaying workers, but nice drones. I have photos of both frame and drone. So for the experiment Allen Dick suggested, perhaps those regressed down now on 4.9mm completely, like Dennis Murrell, myself,and Lee even in N. Mexico to give variation of sites, perhaps we should take ONE frame of drawn out bigger plastic or wax based comb of 5.4mm or bigger, and place it into the broodnest and see. If the bees then recognize as drone/honey combs and the queens lay drones, then we know that the comb produces good mites and hence a big problem for all for reproduction and secondary diseases. So,Hey Allen, now how do I get some big drawn combs of each size over 5.4mm to see if the queens drone them>>>>>>>! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:56:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: wristwatch thread During the 9 years I worked with scuts in Africa, I didn't notice any difference between the bee's behavior towards the Blacks, Whites and Coloureds that work them in both the domestic and wild state. Regards Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:11:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen Dick has asked me... that I take some bees and > place them back onto 5.4 or bigger combs to see what > happens. Do they get badly with mites again!... > So,Hey Allen, now how do I get some big drawn combs of each > size over 5.4mm to see if the queens drone them Well, I'm not sure about larger than 5.4, but the common commercial plastic foundation sold is 5.4mm (except for Pierco which is 5.25mm in the full depth sizes). I'm sure there should be lots of neighbours near you with some drawn 5.4 comb they would be glad to lend you. Of course, I could send you down some from Canada, but there should be lots near you. What would be interesting would be what happens if they can't decide. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 03:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erik Osterlund (as related by Dee Lusby) said: > ...foundation with 6.0 mm cell size... > ...put in in one of my 4.9 hives to see what they would do with it... > ...out came a perfect drone comb. I'm not sure I understand what Eric was trying to prove: a) It is not at all surprising that Eric's bees made drone comb from 6.0mm foundation. Dadant's "drone foundation" (for use in creating freezable drone-comb "mite traps") is roughly 6.0mm. It becomes drone comb in 5.4mm colonies, so it would certainly become drone comb in 4.9mm colonies. b) I would expect just about ANY A.m. colony to make drone comb from 6.0mm foundation placed in the brood chamber. If one picks 5.2mm as a "100%" reference point, one gets: mm Percent ------ ----------- 4.9 94% 5.0 96% 5.2 100% 5.4 103% 6.0 115% Is it any wonder that bees who can be agreed to be in the habit of making worker cells that are within a few percent of 5.2mm would "recognize" something so much bigger as "drone-sized"? The appearance of drone comb merely confirms what should be inherently obvious to even the casual observer. It only proves that: "4 out of 5 beekeepers recommend the use of 'drone foundation' for the production of drone comb" But it appears that this "test" is being presented as an attempt to answer questions about the reaction of bees to choices of 4.9mm and 5.2mm foundation. To me, that "test" was like attempting to answer a question on the relative merits of NATO 7.6mm rounds versus 9mm ammo by firing shotgun shells. Erik Osterlund (as related by Dee Lusby) and/or Dee Lusby said [I'm not sure which said what]: > So for the experiment Allen Dick suggested, perhaps those > regressed down now on 4.9mm completely, like Dennis > Murrell, myself, and Lee even in N. Mexico to give variation > of sites, perhaps we should take ONE frame of drawn out > bigger plastic or wax based comb of 5.4mm or bigger, and > place it into the broodnest and see. But before anyone tries to "test" some 5.4mm foundation in a 4.9mm colony, please first measure the bees. The question one should ask is not about relative cell sizes, but instead, about foundation size relative to the size of the current generation of bees at hand. I am sure that there is a percentage (that can be expressed in terms of the bee thorax diameter) beyond which bees will make drone comb rather than worker comb, and I'd guess that it is less than the 20% difference between 4.9mm and 6.0mm presented in Eric's test. Come to think of it, we can state with certainly that the difference is somewhere around 10% with a very high degree of certainty: 6.0mm is "111%" of 5.4mm 5.4mm is "110%" of 4.9mm Given that we know that bees hatched from 5.4mm cells will reliably produce drone comb from 6.0mm "drone foundation", it seems very reasonable to wager serious money that bees hatched from 4.9mm cells will produce drone cells from 5.4mm foundation. The two ratios are within 1% of each other, and bees are known to use their own bodies as "yardsticks" in cell building, so I think the question attributed to Allen is a slam-dunk to answer. ....but I have no idea what, if anything, answering that question would prove. One interesting question I would have for those who have "regressed" their bees to a smaller size has to do with "bee space". If 10% smaller bees result from regression, do these bees still respect the same bee space designed for 10% larger bees? a) If they do not, how do you cope with constantly-gummed-up woodenware? b) If they do respect the same bee space as larger bees, what does this imply? > If the bees then recognize as drone/honey combs and the > queens lay drones, then we know that the comb produces good > mites and hence a big problem for all for reproduction and > secondary diseases. I'm not sure I understand the paragraph above at all. Of course drone cells are preferred by mites. Of course the consensus is that mites are the vector for secondary diseases. But regardless of the size or breed of one's bees, there is still a "drone-sized cell" and a "worker sized cell", and I assume that the ratios are fairly constant in worker size to drone size, and the ratio holds constant between colonies using 4.9mm foundation and colonies using 5.4mm foundation. Regardless, what would one prove, given that all statements in the quoted paragraph above are currently generally accepted as true? Can someone re-word the above paragraph? Please note that it is not my intent (nor my place) to comment on the merits of one size of foundation over another. I am simply trying to keep everyone well back from the edge of the steep and slippery slope that starts with fuzzy thinking. Down at the bottom of that slope is where one can find the still- smoldering wreckage of things like "cold fusion", Piltdown Man, and a number of other less well-known embarrassments. jim (a 5' 8" guy in a world designed for 6' 2" people) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:11:43 +0100 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee and All If I can respectfully suggest, your proposed experiment will do nothing to clarify in the mind of sceptics whether or not 4.9 is useful in controlling Varroa. The experiment Allen suggested is crucial to convincing others that 4.9 is a useful addition to IPM for Varroa, but if there is no *direct* evidence people will be slow to take it up. Why will your experiment fail to make anything clearer? It is obvious to everyone that drone brood is a better home for Varroa than any size of worker brood. But the success you claim for 4.9 is not, I assume, because small bees stop making drones?! Much more likely would be that the small cell size inhibits the mating of the mite in a cramped cell, or that the small cells somehow awaken unusual hygienic behaviours as some have reported. What is really needed? Moving some of your resistant bees from 4.9 back to larger sizes in a way that preserves the normal ratio of workers and drones, in colonies that start with similar mite loads, and following through at least one season the performance of those colonies. Maybe Bee-L participants have a better idea of how to do this that I have, remembering that you need everything except comb size as equal as possible. If you shake an entire 4.9 colony into 5.4 comb will it adopt 5.4 worker cells as worker and '5.4' drone cells as drone? Why is this needed? You are making big claims for 4.9 and it is possible that this is one of the best ways to move to sustainable beekeeping. It is also possible that 4.9 is largely irrelevant and that other factors give you the resistance to the mite. At the risk of repeating old arguments, the process of allowing a crash in numbers of colonies due to Varroa and then breeding from survivors must mean that your bees are now inherently more resistant to Varroa. What is not clear is the relative contribution of genetics and 4.9 - and only those beekeepers making progress with 4.9 can perform those experiments and tell us the answer! all the best Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:44:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees attacking wristwatches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris There were three types of watch in my experiance... LCD... battery Analogue... battery Analogue... spring driven clockwork As far as I can judge, there were no differences in the activity surrounding each type. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Beekeeper colours In-Reply-To: <200207140256.g6E2uf4X001800@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > During the 9 years I worked with scuts in Africa, I didn't notice any > difference between the bee's behavior towards the Blacks, Whites and > Coloureds that work them in both the domestic and wild state. I have been told that bees are more inclined to react aggressively when darker coloured clothing is worn, but I have not tested this theory. Is it true? If it is, why would bees react to dark clothing, but not to dark skin? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:29:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Beekeeper colours MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question on tatoo's are they stung like the watch? Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:46:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Web Sites Comments: cc: BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our local bee club is about to put up its own web page. Does anyone have a good list of sites that you could send to me for our club to add to the site? I can do a search and save each one but I trying to see if anyone has this information already. No specific order just looking for information that we can have available for our members suppliers, misc. information sites, etc. Thanks in advance for any help, Rodney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:35:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: A grand experiment Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > One interesting question I would have for those who have "regressed" > their bees to a smaller size has to do with "bee space". If 10% > smaller bees result from regression, do these bees still respect > the same bee space designed for 10% larger bees? I like to think that it is todays bees that are 10% larger rather than the reverse. But 4.9 bees do respect the bee space. But nine frames I don't believe will work. 11 frame equipment could work also in langstroth equip. but 10 works fine. > b) If they do respect the same bee space as larger bees, what > does this imply? Not much. This size bee was desined for the equipment. Right? The current sized bee will fit 9 or 10 frames. 4.9 bees will work 10 or 11 frames. I don't see where spacing has much to do with cell size and mite supression. Spacing has more to do with thermoregulation for over wintering. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 07:47:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim makes some good comments. > ... 6.0 115% ... For those who wish to look at a chart of sizes which may or may not help get a visual grasp on the basis of this discussion, visit http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/CellCount.htm > Is it any wonder that bees who can be agreed to be in the habit > of making worker cells that are within a few percent of 5.2mm > would "recognize" something so much bigger as "drone-sized"? It is my understanding that bees vary in what drawn cells they will select for drone raising, and that season, cell availability and position, queen condition etc. will have an influence. What natural size a given hive will *build* for drones, on the other hand seems quite fixed for any given hive. > > So for the experiment Allen Dick suggested, perhaps those > > regressed down now on 4.9mm completely, like Dennis > > Murrell, myself, and Lee even in N. Mexico to give variation > > of sites, perhaps we should take ONE frame of drawn out > > bigger plastic or wax based comb of 5.4mm or bigger, and > > place it into the broodnest and see. To save everyone looking it up, what I have always suggested is simply shaking some of Lusbys hives into hives of drawn comb of the common commercial sizes and running them side by side with their other hives. For a number of complex reasons, that I don't have time or energy to detail here, I have decided that this is probably not as good and simple a plan as it seems on the surface, and am not advocating this experiment at present. Unless I misunderstand, what Dee is talking about here is something a bit different than what I -- along with others like PB -- was suggesting. Nonetheless, it is a step towards that kind of test and might give some interesting results. I have often wondered what is really happening in a hive where 5.4 and 5.25 and 5.2 combs are randomly used in the brood nest -- as happens in many commercial beekeeping operations, mine included. I must also state that when I visited Lusbys I don't recall seeing any drone brood, so my comments only apply to the time I was there. Maybe Dee will tell us what happens when drones are being reared? Do the mites get to build up a bit? I know, or at least have heard from usually reliable sources, that although the best lines of the Russian bees do have varroa reproducing in their hives, that the Russian bees are able to keep the mites to low levels. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:50:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A grand experiment Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, Jim and All, I appreciate the fact that Dee is willing to test her methods and also that Jim is wanting to keep the *grand experiment* in perspective. I find the experiment interesting for a reason not yet presented on BEE-L. Dee has stated in her articles that she only considers the 4.9mm foundation to be a third of her success. The other two thirds breeding and nutrition. What if in Dees operation the varroa load and secondary diseases do not increase when she returns to the size *most* beekeepers use in the U.S. . I would suggest a shaking down of the whole hive onto a 5.2mm. pierco drawn foundation. The size I use for (for purely selfish reasons). Dee has said her success really became apparent when she dropped from 5.0 mm to 4.9mm and even insisted Dadant retool to a smaller size when it became apparent that the first foundation Dadant was selling as 4.9mm was indeed 5.0mm or at least a size larger than she felt was correct. Any of us which has measured cell size will quickly tell you that cell size varies on each frame. I would *bet* worker cell size of 5.0mm and possible 5.1 mm could be found if all 20 brood frames were measured closely in Dee's hives yet with the majority of cells of the 4.9mm. cell size success is claimed. The point I am leading up to is *what if* Dee and Ed were close to reaching a varroa tolerant bee through breeding (genetics) and nutrition (claimed by Dee) and success would have happened even on the 5.0mm or possibly even the 5.1 cells in another couple years at the end of a ten year effort. After all *Grandpa* beekeeper and some of our best researchers said fifteen years ago a varroa tolerant be could be reached using Dee's methods of breeding from survivors WITHOUT A REDUCTION IN CELL SIZE. The *grand experiment* would prove to me the degree of Dee's success which could be given to 4.9mm cell size. In all fairness regarding research I must say every year researchers are coming forward saying they believe through *their* research that smaller cell size will not control varroa. The recent report in Apidologie which Allen posted which is available for free about research from the year 2002 on scuts and capensis in South Africa as one example. The quote from pg 200 of the book "Mites of the Honey Bee " by Delaplane and Webster (2001) published by Dadant as another example as research into cell size in relation to varroa reproduction continues. "The smaller cell size of AHB , along with the fact that these bees have fewer varroa than European bees WITHIN THE SAME SETTING , has led to the IDEA that POSSIBLY a small cell would limit varroa reproduction . Just the opposite SEEMS to be correct." I on purpose left out my feelings about the genetics of Dee's bees which the long term readers of BEE-L are familiar with. Let us separate the cell size issue in Dees bees alone first. If Dees bees will remain as healthy and mite tolerant on a size we are all using then??? If not the *grand experiment* will prove to Allen and myself that the 4.9mm cell size is not as important part of the reason for Dee's success. Bee-L is fortunate indeed for Dee to participate in our discussions. Let us all look carefully and find the reasons for Dee and Ed's success and possibly the same success had be had by all of us or not. Let us always keep a open mind to new ideas. Sorry for the long post but we are talking a complex issue. Probably a issue of little interest to many on BEE-L but cutting edge research with researchers and myself. We all may have to do bee research ourselves in the future with the loss of the bee labs. Not something I am looking forward to but may be necessary for beekeepings survival. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:20:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A grand experiment In-Reply-To: <005c01c22b3d$3cb094c0$f27dfea9@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All Allen Dick wrote: I must also state that when I visited Lusbys I don't recall seeing any drone brood, so my comments only apply to the time I was there. Maybe Dee will tell us what happens when drones are being reared? Do the mites get to build up a bit? reply: This is why we watch the upswing and downswing of the honey cycles and at times see the chewing out of varroa. Nowadays it's mostly in the drone brood and not much of it except in newly caught swarms building up and then those that build combs good do fine and those that don't, well, what can I say. . . some can and some can't. . . just like people. Here you see varroa the worse for those that can't. But nature soon gets rid of those as she plays no second best. But for the most part you must remember. We cull our frames when building up our colonies to no more then 10% droner cells on any one frame allowed to be built. This encourages more drones in the colonies overall, and also encourages chewing out of varroa. But most important,it also extends the active year for drone rearing both forward and backward by a good full cycle of brood rearing or more. Lastly, remember that those bees then that cannot keep their men happy and healthy don't pass on the genetics.Bees must take care of the drones to survive then!! So yes we do have drones build up somewhat, have chewing out more on downswings of flows mild or main, and also happy healthy bees for Allen to come and see, with longer wings even! Chow Dee- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Rev. Mike Martin" Organization: FNORD Subject: Re: Beekeeper colours MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Michael Housel wrote: > > Question on tatoo's are they stung like the watch? > Michael Housel Mine never have been, but then they are all under some covering or another. (Mostly, my shirt) Mike -- ubi mel, ibi apes where there is honey, there are bees Über-Maharaja of Meat in a Cone, Hrothgar The Smith You smug bastard, you! You can judge your success by the quality of your enemies! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:30:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A grand experiment In-Reply-To: <002101c22aec$82a38c40$f27dfea9@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, Allen Dick wrote:I'm sure there should be lots of neighbours near you with some drawn 5.4 comb they would be glad to lend you. Of course, I could send you down some from Canada, but there should be lots near you. What would be interesting would be what happens if they can't decide. Reply: Now Allen, you know we cannot get combs from others for we don't want doped and contaminated combs placed into our colonies. But you porobably do remember we have over 2000 supers (20,000 combs)still in the field awaiting melt down, and not counting the back of the industrial yard, with bigger combs to melt down from the first ten years we regressed to 5.0mm sizing and put the 5.4 or bigger aside. I'll just go get some pertified drawn combs awaiting melting! I shall see JUST FOR ALLEN what happens! Chow: Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All Let me clarify a few things here for my reasoning! In the beginning, when bigger is better started with Baudoux in Belgium, the idea was by him that grew worldwide, "The increase in size is justified, since otherwise the broodnests are too soon crowded, whence danger of swarming. Big cells, big bees, a big hive" But all this was in actuality was an optical illusion, and created a need for suppliers to sell more equipment to help beekeepers whose bees no longer fit into their boxes properly. Baudoux stated early on "Consider the size of the drones reared in worker cells (5mm), ordinary drone cells (5.5mm), and cells of 470 comb (6mm).(I will not point out the SqDecimeter here). Now Baudoux worked in averages with all of his charts he devised to show that bigger was better. So in saying that 5.0 was worker size he also knew then that many were also 4.9mm size and others 5.1mm size. Now today many recognize the 5.1mm size at the bigger end of the averages Baudoux gave, but few recognize the lower end of the averages and 4.9mm, yet on the lower end is the variability for survival. Now we all know that in the Natural that drones breed mites and workers for the most part don't! (i.e. look at apis cerana! Now Allen Dick wants me to subject our bees to cruel and unusual punishment by placing them onto bigger drone combs so near 5.5mm that this if done to humans would be like NAZI death camp trials! I cannot subject them to this since it is known and published fact that in the beginning even with Prof Baudoux in Belgium that bees were on AVERAGE known to produce drones in 5.5mm combs! It was understood by all as common knowledge back then in 1933. All I am simply doing is wishing now our bees are sized back down into natural sizing parameters, is see if the bees we have recognize anything bigger then 5.4mm(since it is so close to drone of Baudoux's era of 5.5mm that got all this bigger is better stuff going) can again recognize the old comb ratio's as droner's!!! Just that simple!! Then just that simple!!! If they do and they drone. . . .then you decide if you want drone combs or aka artificially enlarged combs that big in your colonies! No more and no less!!! You want to make your bees sick again by putting them back onto bigger drone combs by Prof Baudoux's measurements that got this whole thing going worldwide, then do so. You are over 21 and that is your option. I believe in simplicity for showing, quick and simple, not long drawn out waiting on bigger combs for what??? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clay said: > > One interesting question I would have for those who have "regressed" > > their bees to a smaller size has to do with "bee space". > But 4.9 bees do respect the bee space. > > b) If they do respect the same bee space as larger bees, what > > does this imply? > > Not much. This size bee was desined for the equipment. Right? No, in fact, the opposite is true. The early equipment must have been designed for the bees of the day. I submit that early designs of early woodenware that exploit bee space, combined with the fine old-world "furniture grade" craftsmanship used in making the early hives would give us significant hints about the sizes of bees used in the past. > I don't see where spacing has much to do with cell size and mite > supression. It has to do with the claimed mechanism for mite suppression, which, to paraphrase, has been said to be reduction of "excess room" in the cells, leaving a space that allows mite entry, but not reproduction. So, my thoughts are: a) Are people seeing the impact of cell size on mites, or are they seeing nothing more than the effect of "taking one's losses", to end up with a "mite-resistant survivor bee" in the process of "regressing" their bees, and giving credit to the foundation? b) If cell size is the critical factor, and the excess space becomes too small for mite reproduction with only a 10% reduction of scale in bees and cells, and excess spaces (4.9 / 5.4 = 0.9), then I don't think we can claim to understand this at all, given the relative sizes of mites versus bees. Regardless, let's take the statement as a "given", and see how we can test it. c) To test this, one could give 4.9mm bees and 5.4mm bees no foundation at all (or plain wax starter strips) for several generations, and watch what happens, but this would take years. One could also put 5.0mm, 5.1mm and 5.2mm pre-drawn comb or plastic comb into a 4.9mm bee colony brood nest. (Note that I do not suggest 5.4mm comb or foundation in a 4.9 colony since this will result in drones as I pointed out in my prior message). If mites are found reproducing in frames of 5.0mm, 5.1mm, or 5.2mm cells, but not in frames of 4.9mm cells, this would indicate that the "excess space" may well be the critical factor . d) But the "regressed" bees, if they have been truly "scaled down" would "scale down" their approach to propolizing small openings, and also "scale down" their approach to building comb in cavities. So, one could more quickly learn what is going on by looking at how the bees react to various sizes of openings, and get some results without waiting years. e) If there is no difference in the reaction of 4.9mm and 5.4mm bees to various openings, then I would question the statement that there is less "excess" in the ratio of a 4.9mm cell to "4.9mm bee diameter" versus the ratio of a 5.4mm cell to "5.4mm bee diameter". I would also be very confused. How could the two sizes of bees: 1) Use the same "yardstick" for dealing with openings and deciding to propolize, leave alone, or fill with comb 2) Yet somehow use different "yardsticks" when making cells? The fact that owners of 4.9mm colonies do not see problems with "bee space" and see (more) propolis around frame lugs makes me wonder what is going on here. It seems reasonable that 10% smaller bees in the same equipment should result in openings that were "perfect" for 5.4mm bees (such as those under the frame lugs when they sit on metal frame rests with the raised "lip") should be propolized by 4.9mm bees. To get even more focused, why is 4.9mm foundation "good", but Dadant's first-pass 5.0mm foundation "bad"? Lets assume that the "clearance" around a worker bee in a worker cell is: 1) 5% of the diameter. For 5.0mm cells, this would be 0.25mm For 4.9mm cells, this would be 0.245mm. The difference is a mere 0.005mm, or 5 micrometers. 2) 10% of the diameter. For 5.0mm cells, this is 0.5mm For 4.9mm cells this would be 0.49mm. The difference is only 0.01mm or 10 micrometers. These are very small differences, and if one could test 4.9mm against 5.0mm to narrow down the reason why 5.0mm fails where 4.9mm works, one would go a long way towards proving that "size does matter". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:15:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'll just go get some pertified drawn combs awaiting > melting! > > I shall see JUST FOR ALLEN what happens! Well, you may have noted in several recent posts that -- after talking to you and thinking about it -- I have come to the conclusion that such a test is not as good an idea as I once thought. I doubt that it will prove anything conclusively, although it will be entertaining and is bound to cause much debate and speculation. As our experience with varroa progresses, we are finding many incongruous things, and exceptions to what we have come to expect from varroa and bees. As with any invasion, the first wave has been the worst, and after that things have tended to revert. Just as you have hives that are surviving nicely, I am finding varroa levels are not what we expected here, and for that matter, I have a 'toolbox' hive that has survived two winters now with no mite treatments of any sort -- or any other human intervention for that matter. I just picked it up at a neighbours last spring after it came through winter there and got to be a nuisance. It swarmed last year and is hanging out a bit these days. I don't examine the brood, but keep looking for phoretic mites on the outside bees and never see any. Well, actually I did see one mite on a bee when I first brought the box home last year. What I am saying is that unless someone designs an experiment and does careful monitoring and analysis of the results, little will likely be learned. I doubt we will see significant die-off in the first year or two at any rate. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:51:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you put all three on at once, if not explain the procedure? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:54:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A grand experiment Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <01C22B44.F625AD30.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All James Fischer wrote: To get even more focused, why is 4.9mm foundation "good", but Dadant's first-pass 5.0mm foundation "bad"? Reply: First of all we lived with mites on 5.0mm-5.1mm sizing with our bees. This I have said many times, but secondary diseases were not under control and honey production due to this was lacking, us being commercial beekeepers. Second, quality control on milling of the 5.0mm sizing was wanting. In the beginning it was good, but in the end the 5.0mm was very much bigger then this, due to stretching during foundation making, and this unfortunately could not be tolerated and grumpy me, and yes I can be hard, had to point this out to many! James Fischer also wrote: These are very small differences, and if one could test 4.9mm against 5.0mm to narrow down the reason why 5.0mm fails where 4.9mm works, one would go a long way towards proving that "size does matter". Reply: Well, James, I look at it as a factor of one or less, plus living in harmony with Nature. You know you are in harmony when problems become minute! The secondaries for disease stopped with the 4.9mm sizing and the factor of one with a maybe plus, seemed to go to a factor or one or less. But I could be wrong. Now if Baudoux quoted 5.0mm for worker and was averaging sizes, then 4.9 and 5.1 are in his range, with more variability to the 4.9. If Baudoux quoted the 5.5mm for drone then and was averaging then 5.4 (and we both agree here 5.4 will make drones and hence problems for varroa, etc)would be also, along with 5.6. So with 4.9 for worker and 5.4 for drone possible I no like the 5.4mm for worker combs in our nation's beehives. But then I am me. But since our bees with drone culling during workup not back to full sized hives to 10% on anyone comb is working, and bees can control the infestation and accompanying secondaries now, then to be in harmony with Nature, how close to the factor of one or less for reproduction to you think we have come? I would say, pretty darn close!! Don't know if this explains to you what you want,but it seems to sit right with me. Regards to you, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A grand experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and All, Dee wrote: > Now we all know that in the Natural that drones breed mites > and workers for the most part don't! All we have come to realize for sure is that varroa seems to prefer drone brood of all its hosts and turns quickly to mellifera worker brood if drone brood is not available BUT CERANA. . There are at least several possible reasons of which cell size is ONLY ONE OF THE POSSIBLE REASONS. (i.e. look at apis > cerana! Apis cerana is the odity of the bees varroa preys on. After doing a huge amount of research on cerana I have come to rule out the cerana cell size as the only factor why varroa DOES NOT reproduce in cerana worker cells. I could not find one case of varroa ever reproducing in a cerana worker cell. The material I read states VARROA DOES NOT REPRODUCE IN CERANA WORKER BROOD. All material I looked at seems to conclude the above as fact . Although cerana in certain parts of the world lives on a cell size similar to mellifera on the small size 4.7mm to 4.9mm varroa still does not reproduce I have read in worker cells. Most cerana worker cells are quite a bit smaller than 4.7mm in China and the drone size (I have read in the book Asian Apiculture) is around 4.7mm. Varroa has been found to be able to reproduce in worker cells of all mellifera AND simply moves to worker brood when drone brood is not available. Even scutellata and capensis. Capensis tolerates varroa best of all feral mellifera I have been told. Cerana and mellifera WILL NOT CROSS (Asian Apiculture book). In short cerana are similar bees but not exactly alike. Not being alike it is difficult to use cell size as the reason varroa does not reproduce in cerana worker brood as different juvenile growth hormones might come into play. I will be the first to admit I thought for quite awhile the reason varroa never reproduces in cerana worker brood was cell size and I posted several years ago I thought cell size was the reason. . After looking further, reading further and talking to cerana researchers I believe the reason not to be cell size but another yet unfound reason. All researchers I have talked to are quick to say we simply do not know why varroa does not reproduce in cerana worker brood. When pressed researchers seem to agree and three possible reasons. 1. different JGH than mellifera 2. shorter post capping time than mellifera in most instances 3. smaller cell size which cramps varroa reproduction. All of the above is from memory. If a knowledgeable cerana researcher on the list has better information please correct me if I am wrong in my analysis of cerana . I always want correct information in my posts and I am only a beekeeper and not a researcher. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:29:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Web Sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, Some clubs want my PINK PAGES so they go to www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html Be my guest. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:07:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: fire ants and wax worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My little black and brown TN ants do that rather well, and they don't hurt as much when they bite/sting. Fact is that I never see wax worms and ants in the same box of comb. Anyone have tricks for attracting ants to stored comb (especially brood comb)? Logan grumpy7 wrote: > > I forgot to mention -- fire-ants sometimes do a pretty good job of cleaning > out wax-moth larvae from dead-out boxes. Just set the box on an ant-hill.