From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:42:30 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390C649084 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXf010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0207D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 135830 Lines: 3106 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 00:20:24 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: wire knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A few weeks ago, someone posted about using wire as a > draw knife to loosen supers or frames... > ...The wire kept breaking... > ... Suggestions for wire that works? One of the two higher note (thinner) violin strings work fine. For those who advocate "non-violins", viola, guitar, and even banjo stings will work just as well. I'm not sure your 1/2 inch dowels are such a great idea, but any sticks should work. My rig has thicker handles, each with a plastic bicycle handgrip slid over it. My reasoning on the handles is that one want to keep tension high and constant, keep the string taut, and make it easier to pull through. Do recall that one wants to keep a device like this in one's tool box, and off the car seat. Any cop that might pull you over would call this a "garrote", a weapon of assassination used to strange one's victim and/or cut his throat. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:12:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Grey Area In-Reply-To: <200207211828.g6LIS94X022702@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Peter Borst wrote: However, you CAN keep bees without chems if you accept that you may have to restock your hives with packages every year or two. These bees may be raised with the aid of chems, but they will unlikely bring anything but a trace. So, this type of beekeeping is possible, and should be certifiable as "Organic". Reply: So you are telling beekeepers to live in a time warp loop, repeating every two to three years restocking of hives, with bees produced with chemicals and kept on large combs then. Yes, this type of system may be possible for a while. But only for a while. So what happens when the treated source then dries up? Both the supplier and buyers go under? Somehow, I think there must be something better to give to industry for long haul for organics. Sad. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning Varroa in tropical climates, Jim Fischer said, in part, "As a test, European honeybees were imported from both California and Georgia in the USA, and colonies were set up on an island in the clearly tropical zone. These colonies, no different from the ones kept in the USA and Europe, were ALSO able to survive varroa without chemicals, simply due to the climate, which allows bees to avoid "overwintering" and "clustering", and may prompt/force other changes to their habits. These colonies survive to the present." This reminded me of what was reported earlier this year...Canadian researchers reported that screened bottom boards resulted in increases in Varroa reproduction during the summer, apparently because of lowering the temperature in the brood nest. Unfortunately, the actual research paper is available only in French. I no longer have the reference, but it was in my earlier post. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: A grand experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Again interesting discussion. Just want to set one thing straight and then some comments. I am not employed by USDA. I am employed by the MN Dept of Agriculture. Except for enforcement of regulations on importation on honeybees into the US USDA does not regulate honeybees but regulation is done by most states and takes place at state lines. These regulations do differ from state to state just as the beekeeping industry varies from state to state. Most states require that honeybees be inspected and certified in the state or origin before they are allowed to be legally imported into that state. This is an attempt to reduce the chance of moving a disease or pest problem into the receiving state. Beekeepers in most states have demanded this system of oversight to allow movement of honeybees into their state. This is not very different at all from other regulations on the movement of livestock from state to state. Ask some cattlemen in your area how they feel about someone bringing in cattle from outside the state without the proper health records etc. Now my comments. Barry wrote in part: "Tell me what is going to happen should the Lusby's ship bees to another state and that states inspector can't tell whether or not they are ahb's? By what guide will he make his determination whether they are or not? If he simply says they are because they came from Arizona, this has proved nothing. Too many holes in the system to be much good in my opinion." State inspectors don't need to "prove" that the bees are AHB or anything else in most cases all they need to "prove" is that the bees were transported into the state without proper certification and the proper import permits ( the import permits are issued by the state inspector so it is not difficult to find out if they are lacking ). The issue here is illegal movement not what is actually in the boxes. Of course finding something in the boxes that is not know to exist in the state helps show that they were brought in without the proper permits. You ask who has even been hurt by such illegal movement of honeybees. How many beekeepers have been put out of business by varroa mites? They were brought here to the US by illegal movement of honeybees. It took about 10 years from varroa to spread across Austria from my reading of the issue in Europe but we spread the mites across the US in 2 to 4 years mostly by movement of honeybees both legal and illegal. The first find of varroa in MN in 1988 was in honeybee colonies moved illegally into the state from Florida. Other states could give additional examples. Illegal movement of honeybees has cost us as an industry dearly. This is not to say we should stop all movement of honeybees but that the regulations in place are there for a reason and it is our best interest to follow them for our own protection. My view is that we should allow limited and carefully designed importation of selected honeybee stocks into the US with regulatory safeguards to reduce the chance of bringing in additional problems. Like the USDA importation of the Russian honeybees stocks that are resistant to varroa. Yes I buy packages and queens from other states but really like to see those inspection tags on the cages since I know that the producer has made an effort to meet the regulations and has nothing to hide. If someone doesn't want to meet the regulations what are they trying to hide? FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Africanized bee ID by color alone In-Reply-To: <000701c23102$5529e5e0$9bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But doesn't the referenced article at http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/pilot/index.html mention: "We used the Cordovan line of European honey bees so that we could tell our European patriline (i.e., the daughters of the Cordovan drones)from the Africanized (daughters of the Africanized drones) by the color of the workers' cuticle. Cordovan bees have a distinctive light brown color." I don't think that this should give us much of a hope for visual identification unless we happen to keep cordovan Italians and see that they get superceded; then we might know that test time is at hand. In the experiment it seems like the color "guide" of the cordovans was strictly in place only as a specific indicator among other distinctly Africanized (non-cordovan colored) bees. Bill D. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:47:43 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: A Grey Area Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter Borst wrote: > Evolution, as properly understood, has no purpose and is a >mechanism that results in the weeding out of individuals unfit for a >particular niche. Breeding is purposeful human activity with little >or no parallel in nature. Good to see what many haven't grasped - that Natural Selection can only *narrow* the variance. In the std neoDarwinist theory of evolution, all the creativity must come from mutations (an *big ask*). But the assertion cannot pass without comment that 'proper' understanding of evolution reveals it to be purposeless. The mainstream Christian understanding of evolution is that it is God's method of creation. Evolution reflects - in this view - God's purposes. It is anything but purposeless. Then we have to ask, are we agents in (v recent) evolution. I believe we are - for good or ill, according to how we conduct our breeding & other expts. In this context, Peter raises the question of gene-tampering in bees (and thinks none is yet being attempted - glad to hear it Pete). The dispute whether evolution is purposeless has enormous practical significance. If life is purposeless, then gene-jiggerers can ethically slam into plants genes from other kingdoms. On the other hand, if nature is as purposed by God, lately modified over a dozen millennia or so by humans, then we should be v careful before turning loose the mid-1970s methods of mutation now called genetic "engineering". These radically novel techniques overwhelm the many natural mechanisms against inter-kingdom crossings, and could cause novel toxins in pollen, etc etc. I do urge understanding of the much-misrepresented Showa Denko L-tryptophan history: http://www.connectotel.com/gmfood/trypto.html Although the evidence is not conclusive, this constitutes a grave warning which we ignore at our peril. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:39:34 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was alleged that colonies of bees taken to a tropical area were able = to survive without treatments for Varroa due to the climate. I do not = accept this hypothesis at all as we here in Cyprus and in other = countries in the Middle East have to treat the hives to control Varroa. = If we don't treat at least once a year we will loose the colonies. = Temperatures are frequently over 40c. here during the summer and the = colonies rarely cluster except for the occasional frosty night in = February. Further more, before the arrival of Varroa, there existed = many thousands of colonies that were hived in mud pipes, with natural = small cell combs, not one of these "pipe" hives was able to survive the = onslaught of Varroa - despite being on a "natural" system, with natural = sized combs and diet. This is not only true for Cyprus, but for many = places, some of which are very remote and the bees had never had contact = with "enlarged" drones. =20 Re secondary infections - Lusby- it is said that secondary infections = such as AFB etc. will disappear after we change our combs to small cell. = I say the secondary infections in the Lusby's operation have ceased = because they changed the combs i.e. all brood combs are fairly new. = This is just the normal sanitary measure that any good beekeeper, = commercial or otherwise, would do to keep his bees free of these types = of disease. Roger White Superbee Cyprus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:32:39 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Bees Contrasted to Cattle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White said, in reply to Barry: > Ask some cattlemen in your area how they feel about > someone bringing in cattle from outside the state without > the proper health records etc. It is interesting to compare cattle farmers to beekeepers, just to see how badly we lack public relations of the sort that they had have in place for decades: a) When cattle are stolen or harmed, it is a felony by default, given the value of each cow. Beehives get no such consideration. A cow is worth what you can sell it for, and a beehive is similarly "worth" the value of the retail production that the hive can generate over some finite period. While the "replacement cost" of a hive is often calculated as no more than the cost of a package plus woodenware, this does not "replace" the hive in terms of production ability during the current season. b) The mere risk of a cattle disease can prompt entire classes of imported products to be banned outright. A recent example BSE and the complete ban on British beef and sheep products. c) A field containing even a known vicious and psychotic bull weighing more than many cars can be protected by nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire. These fields are often directly adjacent to housing developments, often with the developer leasing land that will soon be built upon to a cattle farmer, who, by putting cows on the land, makes the adjacent land appear "rural" and "attractive" to development homebuyers. Beehives near the homes of non-beekeepers can be ordered moved on the complaint of a single person with an irrational fear of bees. d) Widespread cattle diseases prompt public officials to deploy the National Guard, control all traffic in and out of quarantined areas, and so on. (Again the "Mad Cow" BSE incident in Britain is a prime example.) Beekeepers facing similar devastation get no consideration, other than the occasional pun-filled Sunday- supplement article in the newspaper. e) If a truck carrying cows overturns, animal control and every Vet in the area is summoned by police in attempts to save the poor cows. If a truck carrying bees overturns, the most "enlightened" emergency personnel will kill the survivors by spraying soapy water, giving priority to "restoring traffic flow". Cows are treated as "livestock", while bees are treated as a "Hazardous Materials spill". f) Cows are clearly cows, and are not blamed for the damage caused by deer. Wasps, yellowjackets, and even Japanese beetles are often mistaken for "bees" by otherwise intelligent people. g) Beekeepers are not even viewed as "real farmers" by other farmers, given that many grandfathers kept a few hives of bees in addition to running a thousand-head of dairy cows or whatever. (My response to this view is to ask the farmer if he can lend me a hand during spring ear-tagging, and point out that a typical hive has "only" 40,000 to 60,000 bees to be ear-tagged with a magnifying glass and tweezers.) jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:50:14 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Interstate Bee Transportation and Diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White said, in reply to Barry: > You ask who has even been hurt by such illegal movement of honeybees. > How many beekeepers have been put out of business by varroa mites? > They were brought here to the US by illegal movement of honeybees. > It took about 10 years from varroa to spread across Austria from my reading > of the issue in Europe but we spread the mites across the US in 2 to 4 > years mostly by movement of honeybees both legal and illegal. The current spread of the small hive beetle is yet another example. The problem is that beekeepers themselves are the most common vectors to spread the beetles, and what little political influence "beekeepers" have (AHPA, ABF, et al) solely represents the interests of the largest beekeepers, numbering less than 1,000, and is sure to advocate reduced controls on interstate transportation of bees. Growers also want to reduce restrictions on interstate transport of bees (but I do not know that they actively lobby for this), since this gives them a larger number of potential pollinators to play against one another, and keeps pollination fees low, setting the price based upon the lowest bids by the most desperate beekeepers. Clearly the current inspection approaches are not good enough, given that all bee diseases become universal in time. Even our own State Apiarist takes the fatalistic stance that "we had better learn how to deal with small hive beetles, since they will soon be here". (His job title is "State Apiarist/Endangered Species Coordinator", which I find depressingly appropriate.) > The first find of varroa in MN in 1988 was in honeybee colonies moved > illegally into the state from Florida. Other states could give additional > examples. Illegal movement of honeybees has cost us as an industry > dearly. This is not to say we should stop all movement of honeybees > but that the regulations in place are there for a reason and it is our best > interest to follow them for our own protection. Clearly, spot-check inspecting at point of origin is not enough if one wants to halt the spread of invasive pests and diseases. California took a very aggressive approach in regard to the fire ant, inspecting truckloads of bees at their border. The problem with this approach is that hives on a stationary truck tend to overheat quickly. Any improvement in inspection methodology seems doomed by the lack of interest and resulting lack of funding for bee inspection within the states, and further hampered by the inherent nature of the issue, which tends to result in pointed fingers, pitting beekeeper against beekeeper. The amazing thing is that bees continue to be one of the only "agricultural commodities" that can be moved in interstate commerce with so little inspection and attention. Just try packing a single avocado in your carry-on bag when flying sometime, and see how far you get before it is confiscated. Don't bother trying to explain that it is your lunch, and will be consumed before landing. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: New research on capensis and scutellata (2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, We have been told from the start that scutellata will parasitise (pseudo queens) a colony (Austin ABF). The new information published below seems to cast doubt on what has been put forward by the researchers in the U.S. about scutellata being the source of U.S. pseudo queens unless AHB has picked up the pseudo queen activity from capensis on the 40 plus year trek north. Nature vol. 415 January 10 2002 http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/taplab/pdf/mbwrnature2002.pdf Bee quiz: What race of bee is docile, is black in color, 10% smaller than other races, handles varroa better than any other race and builds small cells? Want another clue? One worker of this race can enter a hive with a load of pollen or nectar and start laying fertile eggs which are not policed by the European workers and take over the whole hive. answer: A. mellifera capensis (subject of the above article) I have been home sick with a virus and have had time to reflect on the capensis discussion. After several hours of thought I am going to approach the subject differently. reported at last ABF convetion: bees (reportedly Africanized by USDA ARS in Tucson) with all the known characteristics of capensis (presented above) have been found in feral colonies in Arizona (Hoffman ABF Savannah 2002). I have had much resistance from a couple people on the list about the use of the word capensis. fact: reliable evidence exists saying Dr. Kerr hand carried 62 queens into Brazil rather than the 26 he admitted to. Two friends of Dr. kerr have told me some of the queens were capensis. Dr. Kerr was very curious about the cape bee. In my opinion some of the feral AHB in Arizona carry a mixture of scutellata and capensis genes. If released together and they cross why not? If a few escaped or some of the scutellata queens were a mix of capensis and scutellata when they *escaped* then here is a very possible scenario in my opinion about the AHb with pseudo queen activity reported in Arizona. >From page 179 of the excellent book "Africanized Honey Bee in the Americas" by Dr. Dewey Caron and available now from A.I. Root publishing and other bee supply houses. Dr. Dewey Caron: "One hundred generations of SELECTION *for good beekeeping traits * has occurred in European bees **BUT** the same number of generations has been selected for bad beekeeping traits by NATURAL SELECTION by Africanized bees" Is it possible that the so called AHb has simply acquired the *capensis like* traits over the last 40 plus years on its way north? Disregarding the word capensis any bee which parasitises European hives is a threat to U.S. beekeeping in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:40:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger White wrote: > > It was alleged that colonies of bees taken to a tropical area were able to survive without treatments for Varroa due to the climate. I do not accept this hypothesis at all as we here in Cyprus and in other countries in the Middle East have to treat the hives to control Varroa. If we don't treat at least once a year we will loose the colonies. We had a discussion on this finding some time back and one of the guesses was that we were dealing with Varroa J vrs D. So you can have good varroa control, as long as it is varroa j. That might be the case in SA. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Africanized bee ID by color alone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill and All, Bill wrote: > I don't think that this should give us much of a hope for visual > identification unless we happen to keep cordovan Italians and see that they get superceded; then we might know that test time is at hand. I agree with Bill on his comments. One reason I posted the post was to show the person on the list which posted. "Africanized bees in Arizona! I don't think so!" that I certainly do not think for a minute that AHb is the figment of a researchers mind hunting for research dollars. I have dug deep into AHB research. I looked last night at over 200 sites before finding the capensis information I posted today. The point about primitive methods Bill is because in researching the actual abstracts of AHb research I have found very primitive methods used to determine africanization. Wing venation has been around for decades (invented by Dr.Warwick Kerr) and DNA for many years. One of the most famous studies done on the africanization process was done by a person I admire so will leave the name out unless pressed further. Here was the way the hives used in the test in the foreign country were rated from the abstract into three classes for the test. category :strongly africanized 1.colony manipulation resulted in more than ten stings, bees not calm on the combs,queens hard to see,brood area extensive category: intermediate: 2. zero to ten stings ,bees controllable with smoke category :European: 3.strongly European: two or fewer stings, bees remained on comb,queens easily located ,brood not covering entire face of comb. The above sounds like a method a beekeeper might choose for his private research not a world famous researcher writing an abstract. No FABIS testing or DNA. Up to a few years ago AHB was simply passing through on its way north. Now AHb seems to have decided to make its new home in the areas shown on the USDA map I posted. We need to take a closer look now and use DNA testing.. Look what happened when Denis Anderson took a closer look at varroa, *varroa distructor* . Dr. Harbo and Dr. Harris realized when trying to raise a varroa tolerant bee that the method of selection by survivors with the lowest mite levels was flawed. On taking a closer look we found *SMR.* In my opinion we need to look carefully at AHb in Arizona and try and figure out what is going on before we are looking at a problem which could have a big impact on the beekeeping industry. The August issue of the American Bee Journal came today. On page 571 is part three in a series about South Africa beekeeping AND the cape bee by Dr.Wyatt A. Mangum . On page 573 Dr. Mangum makes the following comment which I whole heartily agree with: "Perhaps the cape bee problem will make us more aware about a possible accidental importation of cape bees into the U.S." Dave A. of the list posted " only one capensis trait worker would be all that's needed to start a problem in European bees. Unless Blane White (interesting article about Blane on page 576 of the same issue written by Don Jackson) and myself need new glasses and our eyes were lying there is a strong psuedo queen hive in Arizona which Dr. Hoffman showed us in her slides. If those slides were indeed taken in 1990 as one BEE-L person suggested what *could* the problem be like at present twelve years later? I assume Dr. Hoffman did not respond back to Allen? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Coverups only complicate a problem as in the case of Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: New research on capensis and scutellata (2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob Harrison: Some remarks made by Mark Winston in his book Biology of the Honey Bee (pages 127-128). I imagine you’ve seen them but others on the list might be interested. The book was copyrighted 1987. “One of the least-understood aspects of honey bee biology is the absence of a high frequency of diploid egg production by workers among all races except for A.m. capensis. Production of female brood by workers should be highly favored by selection, since it would ensure colony survival following queen loss, yet this trait is common only in capensis. Female egg laying by workers has not spread from the Cape bee to adjacent populations of A. m. scutellata, although extensive hybridization between the two races appears to be occurring (Moritz and Kauhausen, 1984). It has been suggested that the aggressive scutellata workers may kill hybrids which have laying worker characteristics, since these workers appear more queenlike than regular workers; this might explain the failure of parthenogenetic worker production to spread beyond the Cape bee (Fletcher, personal communication). After examining worker characteristics in hybrid zones where capensis and scutellata overlap, Moritiz and Kauhausen (1984) have concluded that capensis is in danger of extinction as a result of extensive hybridization with scutellata and pressure from commercial beekeeping. Loss of this unique race of bees would indeed by tragic, partly because of its potential importance as a genetic reserve of unique traits, and partly because we still do not understand why its characteristics have remained isolated at the tip of South Africa.” Things have changed some since then, haven’t they? Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:30:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: New research on capensis and scutellata (2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have had much resistance from a couple people on the list about the use of the word capensis. No Bob, I don't think it was about that, at least in my case. AFAIK, the suggestion that the Arizona behaviour might be capensis-related was, in fact, first broached on BEE-L by *myself*. If you doubt that, see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105A&L=bee-l&D=0&P=3916 The idea is old hat. We had some discussion on sci.agriculture.beekeeping several years back -- if I recall correctly -- about the Kerr importations and the question of if, and how much, capensis might have been brought in. The resistance to which you refer was that some of us suspect that you put words into Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman's mouth -- or jumped beyond what she was willing to explicitly say and came to conclusions that come across as alarmist . AFAIK, when I heard Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman speak, in 2001 and 2002, *both times* she seemed to choose her words very carefully so as *not* to say what you thought you heard her say. The capensis speculation is legit, however making it seem to come from Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman is not, IMO. > I assume Dr. Hoffman did not respond back to Allen? Well, we had a bit of correspondence on other business and, although I did ask this question twice, it did not draw a response, and it did not seem proper to me to ask again. I suggest you contact her and request permission to use her name in conjunction with your personal theories. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:30:51 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Capensis and pseudo-queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re- capensis importations. An accidental importation of capensis was = mentioned:- this is very possible, after all Acarapis, Varroa and = Athena tumida all managed to get in to the USA. It might not even be = capensis at all, but offspring of some other African "race" either known = to us or not. Many mountainous areas of Africa have populations of dark = bees, the characteristics of which are not known. How do they manage to = survive when surrounded by a sea of scutellata/ adansoni/littorea? =20 Re- pseudo-queens. Coumaphos causes big problems to developing queen = cells and the resulting pseudo-queens are able to invade and take over = normal colonies which may or may not die out. This problem was = described and named "Intermediate Caste Syndrome" by us in the autumn = 2001 Beekeepers Quarterly. =20 Roger White Superbee Cyprus. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:01:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Scotland my hives are positioned on a south facing bank in order to attract as much heat and sun as possible. Are hives in Cyprus positioned in a similar manner? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 02:10:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote > We had a discussion on this finding some time back and one of the > guesses was that we were dealing with Varroa J vrs D. So you can have > good varroa control, as long as it is varroa j. That might be the case > in SA. As I recall the discussion it was that the Varroa destructor may have been the Japanese haplotype which it has been speculated may not be as bad as the Korean haplotype. This was certainly the theory for South America. Varroa jacobsoni only reproduces on Apis cerana and does not reproduce on Apis mellifera. The latest work by Dr. Denis Anderson has found that there are different types of VJ. They are host specific to different types of AC. So much in fact that in the past we had to find the mite to see what it was. Now we can DNA the bee and say which type of VJ it is or if it is VD that will be found with the bees. The VD will not reproduce on the AC that hosts VJ and vice versa. As far as I know, VD does well on Apis mellifera in the tropical areas of Asia. However, it is the Tropilaelaps clareae that does more damage than the VD. In Papua New Guinea where there is only VJ, the TC did all the killing of hives but it cannot reproduce on AC. So after the wave of TC went through the highlands of PNG, they were able to restock with AM and not have any problems as the TC had gone. Very interesting work. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:03:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward Dugan Subject: Small Hive Bettle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am a new beekeeper (less than two years). I have learned a lot from this list and want to thank you all for sharing your knowledge. Yesterday, we just had our first confirmed case of Small Hive Beetle in our area. Is Check-Mite the only way to control these beetles? Is there any non-chemical way? Thanks for your suggestions. Ed Winston-Salem, NC USA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:58:24 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Goudie" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Varroa in tropical climates > Here in Scotland my hives are positioned on a south facing bank in order to > attract as much heat and sun as possible. Are hives in Cyprus positioned in > a similar manner? > Harry, the big problem here is to find a tree to put the hives under- there aren't many! When I said it is often 40c. here in the summer I meant in the shade - I had some hives melt down last month - the melting point of beeswax is 68c.! Best regards Roger White superbee Cyprus. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <000d01c23248$a637bce0$600aa8c0@rogerwhite> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't fully understand the capensis problem. Perhaps somebody can help... As I understand it, capensis workers enter a non-capensis hive, and begin laying diploid eggs, which eventually become more capensis workers who do the same, and the capensis population grows. A report recently referenced on the list also mentioned in passing that the capensis workers participate in foraging activity. At this point it seems to me that the capensis workers are simply boosting the population of the colony, but I understand that eventually the colony is destroyed. How does that happen? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Bees in the Attic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Any takers? -----Original Message----- From: Gray, James L. [mailto:James.Gray@pseg.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Bees in the Attic Yesterday, while at work my wife told me that there was a wet spot on the ceiling of my son's room and this ticking sound coming from the area. When I got home stepped up on a stool to touched the wet area in the ceiling, I discovered it gave, so now I had a slight tear, not yet a complete hole. Then I used a ladder to gain access to the attic and maneuvered my way within reach of the insulation which covered the area of the wetness. I had limited lighting and pulled back the insulation exposing many tiny moving things. I got a flash light and discovered that I had a bee hive the size of a bread box and many worker bees scurrying around. I did not stay long enough to get any further details. I have had stings spread over my nearly 56 years with no life threatening problems, with one incident at 5 when I fell into a bee keepers hive and received many stings. Back to my immediate story, my wife and I discovered outside the house near the area of attic hive was a small opening just under the roof. The house is less than 3 years old and we had witnessed most of the construction so I believe that it is not too old. I taped up the area around the wet spot with see through mailing tape. My questions are: How fast does a bee hive form? Should I put a drain on the wet spot in my son's ceiling to collect, what must be honey? Should I take bee hive family pictures and send them to you? Would you like to come to Jackson, New Jersey and capture a small new hive for yourself? Can we safely wait for the cold of the winter to remove it all? We have worries of the ceiling coming down and bees coming into the house. What would you do in our situation? Thank you for your prompt response James L. Gray Process Control Manager> Public Service Electric & Gas Company 80 Park Plaza, LL2-B2 Newark, New Jersey 07102-4106 mailto:sharonjimgray@netzero.net > > (973)430-7399 Office > (973)242-7156 FAX ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:06:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small Hive Bettle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "david flathman" To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Small Hive Bettle Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:58:25 +0000 sir i am in charleston sc and truly the shb(small hive beetle) is an awful problem with the honey bees. i lost 1 hive and almost lost the second. i think that the strips and a drench of the soil below the hive was effective at controlling the infestation. i hear there is a trap you can make by luring the beetles into a jar filled with honey and water. i would love to hear other peoples experience with the beetles. david ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:28:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank and All, Frank wrote: > A report recently referenced on the list also mentioned in passing that the capensis workers participate in foraging activity. Not after they start laying eggs. Another reason of pseudo queen causing problems is that many of the eggs laid by the pseudo queen turn into drones. The hive is over run by drones. > At this point it seems to me that the capensis workers are simply boosting the population of the colony, but I understand that eventually the colony is destroyed. Capensis in beekeepers terms. Capensis laying workers (pseudo queens)do not forage (or do hive duties and depend on the workers for food) which leads to the demise of the colony. If they did forage then the situation might be different. These pseudo queens are treated like queens by the European worker bees and even though the European worker bees police their own laying workers eggs they leave the capensis laying worker eggs alone and many researchers believe actually treat the pseudoqueens eggs better than their own queens eggs. Extra Royal jelly. Eventually the bees see their own European queen as defective and ball her. The hive is then queenless and will exist till the hive becomes over run with non foraging pseudo queens ( and drones) which beside not foraging will not do hive duties such as caring for brood etc. **Without a real capensis queen the hive dies**. Capensis workers do not *normally* lay in a queenright capensis colony because of the capensis queens strong pheromones. Many fear the capensis in South Africa will eventually eliminate scutellata. Barry Seargant (SA) posted on BEE-L that when he catches a scut swarm to use for honey production (Barry catches around 600 per year) by the end of the season most scut hives are ready to crash from capensis pseudo queens. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:48:22 +0100 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Organization: Hopesay Glebe Farm Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Goudie" < > Here in Scotland my hives are positioned on a south facing bank in order to > attract as much heat and sun as possible. Are hives in Cyprus positioned in > a similar manner? > I have always placed my hive in shaded wooded areas to prevent overheating in the summer, I see pictures of out apiaries in North America in the open with no shade summer or winter. Is there any evidence of temperature control difficulties in such hives? or does the increase in solar gain improve productivity? Phil Moore Shropshire England ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:16:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee Samples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm in need of a sample of bees infested with tracheal mites. Anybody have any? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:17:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <000501c2325d$ab60f280$16ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Bob Harrison > Capensis in beekeepers terms. > Eventually the bees see their own European queen as defective and ball > her. The hive is then queenless and will exist till the hive becomes over > run with non foraging pseudo queens ( and drones) which beside not > foraging will not do hive duties such as caring for brood etc. > **Without a real capensis queen the hive dies**. Hi Bob - Playing devils advocate, let's say that a lot, or most, of the colonies in Arizona have Capensis in the bees. According to the above, colonies would die out and/or beekeepers would be left with unproductive hives. Where is the data from AZ showing that this is what's happening? Certainly this is not what ones sees with the Lusby's hives. How does one make sense of the two apparently different stories/data that we are being given. Rarely is something as bad as we first think it is, or could be. AHB shows this to be true. Now it is Capensis and I fear it too will generate far more hype than actual fact. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Shade vs. Sun Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I always prefer apiaries that are in the full sun. My ideal yard is in a pasture with a windbreak on the north or northwest side. I have kept bees in Coastal San Diego as well as in Upstate New York. In both these locations temperatures seldom reach 100F and very rarely exceed this number. The bees in shady apiaries always seem edgy and prone to stinging. Furthermore, it is very hard to see eggs or find queens in the dense shade. Full sun apiaries seem to be easier to manage, although -- unless the hives are few and far between, there may be more drifting because of the lack of landmarks. In areas where the temps regularly exceed 100F and reach 120F, shades are an absolute must. In the Imperial Valley they use "ramadas" which are usually frame structures with roofs made from palm branches. In the Sacramento Valley it is typical to move the bees into the mountains in summer to avoid the heat. At the higher temperatures the combs will melt down and the wax and honey will pour out the front. When the temperatures are in the 80F to 100F range, and there is nectar coming in, bees seem very content. In fact, I often stop using the veil when these conditions are present. So, I would say, unless you are in a hot desert, full sun is better. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: Bees in the Attic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James, > Would you like to come to Jackson, New Jersey and capture a small new hive for yourself? Sounds interesting but think I will pass and only advise. > Can we safely wait for the cold of the winter to remove it all? I would remove the swarm before long. > We have worries of the ceiling coming down and bees coming into the house. damp sheetrock easily fall releasing the brood nest into the room.. > > What would you do in our situation? What I would do and what you would do are probably different. If I were you I would contact a professional or a beekeeper in the area and see if he would help. To remove the offending hive I would go into the attic and bee vac up all the bees from the comb. Remove the comb. clean up the mess . I would let you replace the sheetrock as I only do bee removal when the people are desperate and the others will not help. I do charge for bee removal in my area and base my fee on the amount of time spent on the project. Those doing bee removal for a living in our area say my fees are below their fees. I have always treated people the way I like to be treated. Don't let a professional BS you and try to charge a couple thousand dollars for 2-3 hour bee removal. Get a close estimate from the bee remover or you will be at their mercy. . A attic brood nest between rafters with only insulation around them is a easy bee removal. Don't forget to plug the entrance as swarms like to swarm to places bees have nested before. I sell a bee removal video but would recommend getting a beekeeper (with a bee vac) or a professional. Cost is always cheaper if you replace the ceiling damage yourself. Hope I have helped! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:38:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Sealing a hive top feeder In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723155729.00a0be70@postoffice4.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The hive top feeders that I usually buy have been sealed by dipping them in hot paraffin. Recently I received some from another source, and they are assembled but unfinished. What are some good ways to make them waterproof? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Fanning Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Fanning Subject: Bees in a non beekeper's home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just received an inquiry on my beekeeping WebPages in Huntsville, AL = USA from an individual in Newark, New Jersey (07102-4106) looking for = advice on removing honey bees from his house. Is there anyone on the = list from that area that can contact him and offer advice and/or removal = service. Please email me at k4vb@hiwaay.net for information. Bob Fanning ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:05:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join and submit articles for consideration. While anyone may read BEE-L, those submitting articles, by doing so, agree that acceptance or rejection of posts to be sent to the list is at the sole discretion of the moderators. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. Failure to meet guidelines will result in rejection of your article. IN PARTICULAR, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES OR ANY PREVIOUS HEADERS WHEN REPLYING. CONTRIBUTIONS INCLUDING QUOTES THAT ARE NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO UNDERSTANDING WILL USUALLY BE REJECTED *WITHOUT NOTICE* FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. 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CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:15:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Sealing a hive top feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank & All, > Recently I received some from another source, and they are > assembled but unfinished. > > What are some good ways to make them waterproof? > I use zip-lock baggies in my hive top feeders when I use them but now a days I just use the baggy method when I feed. Here are two URL's that show and describe the baggy method; http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/feedingbees.html http://beesource.com/eob/baggie.htm I used to use hive top feeders but found them a hassle and to high maintenance. Use them if you like to but, in my opinion, I would put a zip-lock baggy in them and not even worry about sealing them. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Shade vs. Sun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I always prefer apiaries that are in the full sun. ...... > The bees in shady apiaries always seem edgy and prone to stinging. This has been my experience also in central Ohio. I've had apiaries in all kinds of locations, including where some hives were in the open and others under shade in the same location. The ones in the sun were usually "kinder and gentler" and produced better. So I quit trying to provide shade in this area. Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry and All, Barry asked: > Playing devils advocate, let's say that a lot, or most, of the colonies in > Arizona have Capensis in the bees. According to the above, colonies would die out and/or beekeepers would be left with unproductive hives. Where is the data from AZ showing that this is what's happening? I posted in a early post the problem could take years to reach the level we see in South Africa. I predicted if the cape bee is not stopped in South Africa in 20 years capensis will be the only race of bee. I am not alone in my thinking. Barry wrote: Certainly this is not what ones sees with the Lusby's hives. I do not know the level of pseudo queen activity in the Lusbys bees. If those slides Dr. Hoffman showed were indeed Lusbys bees as Dee claims then there is only one way her bees could survive. Breed from those black capensis workers and keep capensis queens in her hives. The capensis workers would drift into any other race and start the scenario i described in the last post. Barry wrote: How does one make sense of the > two apparently different stories/data that we are being given. I did a post which brought out the moderator black flag so am going at the subject differently. Possibly one of the other moderators will approve my pending post as I thought I was being civil but asking a few direct questions of Dee. Lets look at the two sides of the discussion. What are the two stories Barry refers to above.: One story: The Lusbys say there is no AHb in Arizona and that those pseudo queen pictures were taken of her bees in 1990. She sees the traits in the slides as traits to breed for. My concern: AHb is documented in most of Arizona as pictured on the 2001 USDA map. The USDA lab has pictures of AHB bees on their website IN ARIZONA. I believe I have proven beyound a shadow of a doubt Arizona has AHB. I was shown slides of pseudo queen activity by Dr. Hoffman which she said was common in the FERAL colonies in Arizona and she considers a threat to pollination . At the end of the Hoffman talk I asked the first question: Was she refering to capensis traits and the answer was . Yes! My partner was sitting next to me and will verify. Blane was in the room and heard the talk and drew the same conclusions. When I posted about the talk on bee-L Dee jumped me saying she saw nothing bad about bees with capensis type traits and thought the capensis type traits were a good thing. Hopefully by now she has realized by my capensis posts why my concern. She also said those bees in Dr. Hoffmans presentation were from her hives and not feral colonies. Are those not the two sides to the issue? Do you honestly believe there is no AHb in Arizona and capensis type traits are a good thing for U.S. beekeeping? > Rarely is something as bad as we first think it is, or could be. If you have got a solution for capensis please post as the situation in South Africa is looking bleak. Barry also wrote: AHB shows this to be true. Let me give you a couple quotes from Dewey Caron's new book "Africanized Honey Bees in the Americas" I am not sure the exact number of trips Dr. Caron has made to study Africanized honey bees but my guess would be between 10 - 20 trips. pg. 179 "After 30 years we have not developed a better Africanized bee for beekeeping except *maybe* in brazil" pg. 182 " The Africanized process leads not to a hybred bee but to the AFRICAN BEE" Now it is Capensis and I fear it too will generate far more > hype than actual fact. What facts do we know for sure: 1. slides were taken in ARIZONA of *capensis like* pseudo queen activity. In other words a European hive being taken over by pseudo queens. 2. Dee stepped forward and said those were slides of her bees taken in 1990 by Dr. Hoffman. I assume she was referring to the "Lus Bee " project posted at Beesource.com.in which both Dr. Hoffman and Dr. Erickson worked on. speculation on my part: swarms came from the "lus bee" project and started the pseudo queen problem Dr. Hoffman refers to in the feral bees of Arizona. Interesting discussion! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:03:43 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: How do you stay cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, We usually work the bees very early in the morning or late afternoon. = The bees are selected to be docile and we don't use any protective = equipment and just take off supers with a blower and wearing shorts and = a t-shirt. Sometimes it's better to wear a veil just to keep the sun = off the face. During the summer anyway there is not much to do with the = bees as the flows are mostly over and we just remove the crop at our = leisure. When it's too hot off course we just stay at home and do other = jobs in the air-conditioning - or go on holiday! For the actual care of the bees we have found that two things are very = important: 1. That there be a supply of water near the bees - in some areas there = isn't any standing water at all and we have to take barrels of water to = the bees, an apiary of 24 hives can get through a barrel of 130 litres = in a week. 2. The roof tops of the hives must be painted white - gloss white- we = did some tests and found the unpainted vs. painted can mean a difference = of up to 20c. in the feeder under the roof. This could mean the = difference between life and death for the colony in very hot weather. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:50:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hive top feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank asked about making hive top feeders waterproof. Frank, I assume you are talking about wood. The new polystyrene feeders are absolutely and totally moisture proof. For all time. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. For the wood, I use Dupont Corlar 25P. Any high-grade paint store has it or can get it. It is an epoxy and with the additive costs around $50 a gallon, but it is absolutely foolproof. Ordinary house paint "breathes", and is not moisture proof. The Dupont is not feed-grade, but a Dupont technician told me that the difference between it and their food-grade product is only one of paperwork to have a trail in case of emergency...that and another $100 a gallon! I have used it for many years on Kelley hive-top feeders and it is great. BTW, you must paint both inside and outside as otherwise the moisture will be absorbed through the unprotected side and will "push" the paint off the other side. I learned this the hard way, after having to redo about 20 feeders! Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:11:45 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Re: Sealing a hive top feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, We paint the inside of our feeders with fibreglass resin. Because of the high temperatures the wax method just doesn't work at all. Roger White Superbee Cyprus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:47:34 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Economist Aritcle about Cape Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't ever recall seeing an article about bees in The Economist before. It is a simple overview of the situation, and can be read here: http://www.economist.co.uk/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1234672 Things are getting screwy... first Bee Culture runs an article on world trade and protectionsim by Gary Shilling, and now the Economist runs an article about obscure beekeeping problems. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:15:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Rental of Observation BeeHive, Annaheim, CA, July 31, Marriott Hotel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Folks: Next weeks, we will be demonstrating our bee-based technologies at a large conference (1600 registrants and growing) near Disney land. We are looking to rent a small (1-2 frame) observation hive to display Wednesday afternoon and evening. The hive would have to be well constructed, bee tight, "pretty", queen-right, and obviously, disease free. We would pay for rental, delivery, and return. We realize its short notice, but maybe someone out there can help. The purpose of the display is to raise awareness, not only of what we do with bees, but of the importance of beekeeping. Thanks Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:40:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Bob Harrison > > > Eventually the bees see their own European queen as defective and ball > > her. The hive is then queenless and will exist till the hive becomes over > > run with non foraging pseudo queens ( and drones) which beside not > > foraging will not do hive duties such as caring for brood etc. > > **Without a real capensis queen the hive dies**. > This is a fascinating discussion.But I keep wondering why,if the cape bees claim to fame is its ability to raise a queen from a laying worker egg(an amazing trait),how come all these scut hives in Africa crash without the cape workers raising a queen.And,if the cape bee came in with Dr.Kerrs imports,and has been in the gene pool from the beginning,why no reported problems as the bees migrated up from South America?Certainly the Lus bees(Dee should copyright that!)arent dieing out from psuedoqueens,and in fact the queen replacement trait seems to be working .So has anyone heard of any cases of cape genes causing problems with the scuts during there migration up from South America?If not,then it would seem that Dees Bees(another trade name to consider)might just be what she has claimed all along,a bee that has been selected for the thelytoky trait over many years. -----Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Mosquito spraying: copy of post to a number of internet groups.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is the time of year when the mosquito districts get into high = gear, and some of them spray, spray, spray. This poses risks to humans = (particularly asthmatics, children and pregnant women), kills off = beneficial insects (like dragonflies which eat mosquitos, and bees, our = primary pollinators, and butterflies), and is mostly ineffective at any = real control. James Irwin of Columbia, SC has done some research, and made enough = noise (mosquito spraying is more a matter of politics than science) to = get a moratorium on using adulticides in some SC spray districts. Take = a look at what he's doing, perhaps you can do as much good in your area: = http://nospraynews.org =20 --=20 Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:50:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Selkie Lass Subject: Re: Survival of paper in a beehive In-Reply-To: <000c01c22e79$1318ad20$6b0c0a98@t0b9o7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is an easy one- Take an old band aid box, or other tin box that is no thicker than a comb, and lay it on top of an old piece of comb. Cut out a piece of comb the same size as the box. Shove the box into the hole in the comb. When placed back into the hive, the bees will neatly seal the box into place, and caulk up any holes and seamswith propolis, creating a very tidy seal. You can also take a stack of paper, and wrap it up with oillcoth, canvas or other sturdy fabric, dip the packet in beesway, and then supend it in a frame- put it in your hive that gathers the most propolis. They will seal it up very nicely, if the beesway hasn't done that job already. For short term storage, a frame sized syrup feeder works great- just drop you packet into it, and if it is out of the bees way, they will usually leave it alone. Laurie R King had Sherlock holmes hide a tiny treasure box in a hive of bees that is swarming like crazy in "A Letter of Mary" and I'm sure other writers have done the same. I was hoping it might get done in "Ulees Gold" but was dissapointed. I have been known to keep a little gas and lunch money tucked away in a band aid box in a syrup feeder, since there are no ATM machines handy to this yard Once sealed with propolism they can be quite air and syrup tight, and can even act as a feeder float- tho I wouldn't recommend risking it with more than $20! Ellen, In Michigan Janet Montgomery wrote: So It is possible for paper to survive, at least in the protection of a cover Dan Veilleux North Carolina --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:31:22 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Capensis/pseudo-queens/Lusbee taxonomy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Tooley, Capensis is only a problem when it invades colonies of another race - = not when it is in it's own area-IF the Lusbee is capensis, then there = wouldn't be a problem would there? Only in the areas where it would come = into contact with other races of bees. The fact that the Lusbee seems = to be quite different from other bees in both behaviour and wing = venation (it was mentioned that is has an extra vein in the wing) = suggests to me that we are dealing with an unknown taxon - Why hasn't = some expert in apis taxonomy been down there to see what is going on and = where exactly the Lusbee fits into the known subspecies. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Economist Aritcle about Cape Bees In-Reply-To: <01C232F7.23C06F00.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > http://www.economist.co.uk/science/displayStory.cfmstory_id=1234672 > Is this article accurate?If so it would explain a few things.If I understand it correctly(never a sure thing with me)it is saying the cape bee problem can be traced back to one single laying worker that drifted in to a scut hive a few years ago.I guess DNA testing would have proven that.So,if all the bees in the hive,scuts and capes,believe they are queenright,then apparently no effort is made to raise a queen? The article said this is a recent occurence from a mutation.That could explain why there has been no problems with the bees coming up from Brazil.Apparently this is an abnormality(of the worst kind). ----Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:11:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <001901c232bb$1f5da860$72ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > speculation on my part: > swarms came from the "lus bee" project and started the pseudo queen problem > Dr. Hoffman refers to in the feral bees of Arizona. Interesting theory,Bob.But WHAT IS the pseudo queen problem in Arizona?Who is reporting this?There must be other beekeepers with yards in proximity to some of the Lusby yards.Probably with more 'common type' bees.Is there a problem with pseudo queens in any of them? --Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:02:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All > 2. Dee stepped forward and said those were slides of her bees taken in 1990 > by Dr. Hoffman. I assume she was referring to the "Lus Bee " project posted > at Beesource.com.in which both Dr. Hoffman and Dr. Erickson worked on. > I have searched for this posting of the "Lus Bee " project at Beesource.com and came up empty, maybe you or maybe Barry B. could post the URL for this Beesource.com posting so I and others can come up to speed with what you are referring to. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:07:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan Hadley Subject: Beekeeping in Ukraine My name is Dan Hadley, and I work for a nonprofit volunteer program in Washington, DC. We match people from the US agricultural sector with struggling farmers in developing countries. We recently began working with Beekeepers in Ukraine (former Soviet Union), and I wanted to join the list to learn more about beekeeping and to see if any list members might have the desire to volunteer their skills overseas. I would be happy to provide further information to any interested persons. CNFA covers all volunteer costs, and provides a translator. The volunteer donates his or her time and skills. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:44:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <007101c233a0$d0be1fa0$b67aed18@w3a7k4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Keith Malone wrote: I have searched for this posting of the "Lus Bee " project at Beesource.com and came up empty, maybe you or maybe Barry B. could post the URL for this Beesource.com posting so I and others can come up to speed with what you are referring to. Reply: Didn't know it was the "Lus Bee" project either, just part of a multi contract of things and information exchanged trying to help industry. Please see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm It is titled: Thelytoky in a Strain of U.S. Honeybees (Apis Mellifera L) May 1991, Bee Science, and I have posted it for reference here on BEE-L a few times before, for others to read along with the one on speeded up genetics and Biological Manipulative treatment for honeybee mites. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: "Lus bee" abstract location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike and All, Mike wrote: Interesting theory,Bob.But WHAT IS the pseudo queen problem in Arizona? Who is reporting this? The story was reported by Dr.Gloria DeGrandi- Hoffman (head researcher at the Tucson bee lab)at a talk she gave at the ABF convention in Savannah on Thursday January 17th. at 9:30 am.2002 about the USDA-ARS Tucson bee labs recent pollination research that bees with * capensis LIKE * traits were in Arizona in the feral colonies (the Lusbys operation was never mentioned). The talk was called "POLLINATION RESEARCH AT TUCSON". Slides were shown of the pseudo queen activity of those bees. Four different beekeepers on BEE-L were at the talk In fact I was so *shocked* at the *thought* of the cape bee problem *possibly* being in the U.S. that I asked the first question. "Are you talking about capensis like traits?" I asked? Dr. Hoffman said *YES* and went on to the next question. Dr. Hoffman never said capensis during the talk. For clarification to see if Dr. Hoffman was referring to capensis (the infamous cape bee) I asked the question. As far as the reference to the 1990 *Lus bee* project on which Dr. Hoffman worked The research was being done on number of colonies to FORCE thelytoky using methods similar to Mackensen did in 1943. Could pseudoqueens been caused by the research? I believe the possibility exists. AT LEAST ONE QUEEN WAS RAISED AND MATED ACCORDING TO THE ABSTRACT. The *Lus bees* abstract prints to 8 pages ,is in-depth and well written. Please read and draw your own conclusions. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm If bees exist with *capensis like* traits in Arizona (which I and others saw slides of) and those bees * DID NOT * come in with the introduction of AHb into Arizona then in my opinion those pseudo queens *could* have came from the *lus bee* project. The cape bee is talked about all through the article and compared to the "Lus bees". Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Lus bee" abstract location In-Reply-To: <001f01c233f7$3e5cc100$5fac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Bob Harrison wrote: The research was being done on number of colonies to FORCE thelytoky using methods similar to Mackensen did in 1943. Reply: Very interesting you writing all this Robert, but I don't recall any forcing being done. We were doing it first in the industrial yard and I was video taping it as it happened and then the lab duplicated it and verified it in my recollection. This was going on in the middle 1980s at our industrial lot and in 1988 after our contract was accepted with Western Region in Albany Calif, the Tucson Bee Lab really got involved. Bob Harrison also wrote: Could pseudoqueens been caused by the research? I believe the possibility exists. AT LEAST ONE QUEEN WAS RAISED AND MATED ACCORDING TO THE ABSTRACT. reply: Actually, when the contract ended we went on doing what we had always been doing and the lab stopped working with the bees and our loaned equipment. What we had was given back and what they had was supposedly given back. Are you now saying that the bees we loaned to the lab were not given back somehow and accounted for? Bob Harrison further wrote: If bees exist with *capensis like* traits in Arizona (which I and others saw slides of) and those bees * DID NOT * come in with the introduction of AHb into Arizona then in my opinion those pseudo queens *could* have came from the *lus bee* project. Reply: Robert, again are bees have exhibited this trait back to Ed's grandpa and Dr Levin wanted some different work at the lab and I wrote a contract that Western Region signed for Dr Erickson and Dr Hoffman to work on officially. It also encompassed putting bees back onto smaller cell size another thing we were also deeply into, and I therefore hand made foundation for the local lab. The AHB so-called problem came in the mid-1990s several years after work on this so-called project name, now of yours ended in actual technical exchange of information on the basics of proving thelytoky existed in our bees. Mostly because Norm Gary in Calif at the university, even though Dr Laidlaw was helping and greatly interested. As for the trait continuing from our so-called now "Lus-Bees", well, yes it does, and I consider the trait a blessing to our bees for survivalability and necessary to all small blacks for transitioning into temperate zones. This is seen in the mediterranean area in Europe and MIde-east in Eurasia and is of great benefit to honeybees. Unfortunately, in S. Africa there in no place to transition to and evidently as reported here a couple of days ago they have gotten their cape bees inbred. An unfortunate occurance leading to problems over there and they evidentually need fresh blood and no place to get it. But Robert, we were here first with the trait in our honeybees, well before the arrival of the so-called myth (IMPOV). Also, if you are so afraid, I would look around then, because for years this family, from Ed's grandpa until now with me, has traded in bees and queens throughout the US and Canada (prior to borders being closed). If triggered, this trait then you are so afraid of could pup-up anywhere. Bob Harrison further wrote: The cape bee is talked about all through the article and compared to the "Lus bees". Reply: Yep, and Dr Anderson from S. Africa sent me and the USDA lab here samples of Cape bees, so comparisons could be made to rule out the fact that the bees were the same and actually different. This was also noted in wing veins and other measurements and DNA (To my understanding). So Robert, if the USDA ruled this out with Dr Andersons help back in the 1980s, what is it that you cannot accept? After all the trait was never seen in the 4 plus decades movement up from S. America and was even written by Dr Winston not to be compatable for breeding in with scuts. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:33:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> When an American friend came over for a visit a few months ago, he was very upset that my hives aren't in a very sunny position and advised me to move them. Americans always tend to think hives should be in the sun, unless they have an extreme desert climate of course. Over here we don't worry too much. Is this a trait of American bees, that they need sun while British ones don't, or what? It would make sense if ours were adapted for shade, given our weather, but has anyone ever looked into it? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:13:21 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Draft paper on dance language for comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Problems with the Honeybee Dance Language Hypothesis Julian O'Dea, Visiting Fellow, Division of Botany and Zoology, Australian National University. The "dance" of the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) is one of the most famous of all animal behaviours, but its meaning remains controversial. On returning to the hive after a successful foraging trip, a honeybee may do a "dance," a set of movements that reflects in miniature the details of her trip. The duration and orientation of the movements in the dance depend on the distance from, and the direction of, the bee's latest foraging site relative to the hive. A longstanding debate centres on whether this "dance" is a language, in the sense that it communicates this spatial information to other bees, as famously proposed by Professor von Frisch. An alternative hypothesis is that locality odour alone, not dance movements, is the basis of the communication of the whereabouts of resources (1). An assumption of the classical von Frisch hypothesis has been that honeybees are good at accurately estimating the distance they have travelled, so that they can represent this in their dances for the information of other bees. It has generally been thought that honeybees rely on the amount of energy used on a trip to estimate the distance travelled (2, 3). However "dance language" proponents recently obtained some unexpected experimental results (4). They found that the relationship between the distance to resources and dance duration (which is supposed to reflect the distance the bee has travelled) differed depending on the direction to the food. This suggested that the honeybees were not able to make absolute measurements of distance travelled. Esch et al. (4) concluded that bees actually measure distance from the amount of "optic flow" on their trip, that is "the total amount of image motion en route to the food source". Since the amount of optic flow differs depending on the visual features in the honeybee's journey, this would explain why the bee's estimation of distance might vary depending on the direction of her flight. But, at the same time, it implies that honeybees must be poor at measuring distance in an absolute sense. If Esch et al. (4) are correct, their findings raise problems for the "dance language" hypothesis. As they note themselves, the apparent lack of absolute accuracy in the information about distance - supposedly conveyed in the dance - is a problem for the proposed communicative mechanism. In the absence of accurate distance information, as the authors write, " ... there must be a high selection pressure to ensure that a dance signals the direction of the food source as precisely as possible." However there is evidence that direction information is also not accurate (5). The inaccuracy in the supposed means of communication makes it less likely that the dance movements of honeybees have anything to do with communication of the whereabouts of resources. The alternative, locality odour hypothesis (1, 6) therefore gains in credibility. Further evidence that bee species may show behaviours on returning from a foraging trip that contain information about the trip that is not communicated to the other bees in the hive comes from observations on stingless bees (Meliponini) (6). A study on Melipona quadrifasciata (7) found that there was a correlation between the distance to resources and the duration of the sounds emitted by foraging bees on their return. However, the study also showed that the distance information is probably not used by the other bees in their foraging. For example, although the bees were found to respond to a sound signal that corresponded to a nearby feeding station (0 to 30 m), "the bees did not respond to a signal for a feeding station 300 m away or for a station at any other distance". The authors concluded that " ... smell [locality odour] alone appeared to be a sufficient stimulus for the trained bees to fly to the 300 m feeding station." More recent studies (8-10) on another Melipona species, Melipona panamica, also indicate that the bees make sounds on returning to the hive with features that correlate with details of their foraging trips. The authors propose that these sounds communicate the position of food localities to other bees. However, little consideration was given to the possible communication of the odour of food localities in providing information on their whereabouts. No experiments were done that would have determined whether the locality odour bees bring back from a desirable foraging site, or the sounds emitted by bees on returning from the site, is the factor that conveys information on the location of resources. It is quite conceivable that - as in the case of Melipona quadrifasciata (7) - the sounds produced by the bees that correlate with details of their foraging flights are not the mode of communication. In summary, it is conceivable that food locality odour is used by bees in communicating the whereabouts of resources, not the supposed "dance language" and other postulated forms of symbolic communication. Dancing movements and sounds emitted by bees returning from foraging trips may only serve to attract the attention of hivemates so that they can be made aware of the odours associated with desirable food sites (6). References: (1) Wenner, A.M. 1971. The bee language controversy: an experience in science. Educational Programs Improvement Corporation, Boulder, Colorado, USA, 109 p. (2) Goncalves, L.S. 1969. A study of orientation information given by one trained bee by dancing. J. apic. res. 8 (3): 113-132. (3) Michener, C.D. 1974. The social behavior of the bees: a comparative study. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, USA, 404 p. (4) Esch, H.E., S. Zhang, M.V. Srinivasan and J. Tautz. 2001. Honeybee dances communicate distances measured by optic flow. Nature 411: 581-583. (5) Vadas, R.L. 1994. The anatomy of an ecological controversy: honey-bee searching behaviour. Oikos 69: 158-166 and at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/oikos94.htm (6) O'Dea, J.D. 2000. Why do honeybees dance? naturalSCIENCE http://naturalscience.com/ns/nshome.html (7) Esch, H, I.Esch and W.E. Kerr. 1965. Sound: An element common to communication of stingless bees and to dances of the honey bee. Science 149: 320-321. (8) Nieh, J.C. 1998 The role of a scent beacon in the communication of food location by the stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 47-58. (9) Nieh, J.C. 1998. The food recruitment dance of the stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 133-145. (10) Nieh, J.C. and D.W. Roubik. 1998. Possible mechanisms for the communication of height and distance by a stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 387-399. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:12:24 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Julian Have you seen my "A comprehensive honey bee dance and odour `language' hypothesis". Bee World 81 (1): 5-10 (2000). B J Donovan? The essence of the paper is that perhaps some bees use the information in the dance to avoid arriving at the known source, so they can more quickly find and exploit new sources which they locate by following odour plumes. The competetive foraging success of the hive is thus maximised. The hypothesis is a new way of looking at the whole question of whether or not bees use the information. Each of the 2 competing hypotheses of Karl von Frisch and Adrian Wenner is shown to be a part - and a correct part- of a greater whole (but I'm sure Adrian will disagree). I can send a reprint to anyone interested. There is recent paper which summarizes the dance language information - but which doesn't refer to mine as it seems the literature review was completed before my paper was published: Dyer, F. C. 2002: The biology of the dance language. Annual Review of Entomology 47: 917-949. Regards to all, Barry Donovan. Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre Lincoln. Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. DonovanB@Crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:09:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: The "Lus" bee experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, Dee has asked me to explain my concerns. The first concern is any threat of bees with capensis pseudo queen behavior getting into the U.S. bee population. If your bees are caucs Dee your bees would be at risk also wouldn't they? From scutellata to caucs capensis like pseudo queens take no prisoners About 20 years ago I recreated Mackensens research. I got the same results as CD and CP bees did in your testing. In your testing the LUS bees tested right with capensis. Cape bees after 13 days of queen removal average 28% of the workers with developed ovaries. Lus after 13 days of queen removal average 27% of the workers with developed ovaries. Conclusion is the Lus and capensis are almost the same in the above regard. Further down pg. 5 (report printed out)we see a documented case of absconding. "thus causing the LUS laying workers to abandon the hive" of the nine queens produced from laying workers brood , eight did not return to the hive after a mating flight , OR WERE CRITICALLY INJURED DURING INSTRUMENTAL INSEMINATION. What kind of experiment was going on here and why wasn't the instrumental insemination process outlined in the objectives part of the abstract? Thanks for taking the time to explain your view points but feel we are not on the same page yet. Sincerely, Bob Ps. I still feel like I am putting a puzzle together and a couple of the key pieces are missing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Ukraine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Hadley, There are probably quite a few people that may be interested. More information is necessary. Please post your email address for off forum discussions. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:25:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The "Lus" bee experiment In-Reply-To: <003b01c23449$71e22c20$58ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, hello Robert Mr Harrison wrote: Dee has asked me to explain my concerns. The first concern is any threat of bees with capensis pseudo queen behavior getting into the U.S. bee population. If your bees are caucs Dee your bees would be at risk also wouldn't they? Reply: First of all Robert, the closest our bees have been identified for being something is by DNA which compared both our small black bees and the small black bees in feral colonies back in the 1980s in San Diego county Calif, as being similar to caucasian. So why don't you go find the paper and pull it up and see if I am reading it right? The next closest was Dr Koeniger who said our bees were carniolan and italian with caucasian if I remember right in morphometrics back around 1988. Dr Houck said in a size discriminate report she gave in 1990 that our bees were not africanized and fell out as caucasian. Dr Rinderer in a blind test Dr Loper shipped on him, said our bees yellow and balck were africanized in a size loaded FABIS Testing that got Dr Daly working to correct the problem. Along the way Dr Roy-Keith Smith got envolved with testing also. Lastly, it was Dr Houck through the University of Arizona that did the wing vein measurements on our bees and found the special veining that she considered a pedigree, and told me in grafting to never lose sight of the vein in the modiefied out-of-breeding season methodology I use. So Robert, to answer you question if our bees are caucasian, you tell me, for actually I do not fully know! Are you any better then the above scientists for being able to tell me what they actually are? You have any ideas as to why they cannot be specifically identified? Then Robert, you want to know if our bees would be at risk? But my question is risk from what? The bees are doing what they have always done IMPOV. If they have never changed, how can they be at risk? I love the bees and how they handle. You would love them too if you actually saw them. Mr. Harrison next wrote: >From scutellata to caucs capensis like pseudo queens take no prisoners Reply: How do you mean this Robert? I use our small blacks to give winter carry over to the italian in our bees that Dr Koeniger identified back in the 1980s. I also use our small blacks for selection of better non-swarming bees, which I know now you are trying to be at odds with, but understandable. Also the small blacks help to give better disease fighting capabilities to the bees we keep, and they take care of the parasitic mites better also.(Note: Robert, now don't confuse this paragraph here with thelytoky traits in Capenis bees in S. Africa for the transition circumstances are different IMPOV concerning breeding.) Mr. Harrison then wrote: About 20 years ago I recreated Mackensens research. I got the same results as CD and CP bees did in your testing. Reply: Yes, Robert, I have read here on BEE-L where you have seemed to have done a lot of things. Mr. Harrison additionally wrote: Further down pg. 5 (report printed out)we see a documented case of absconding."thus causing the LUS laying workers to abandon the hive" Reply: This Robert I would say would depend upon what your definitioin ov absconding is and how it is initiated. I myself did not consider it that way back then if I remember right, but technically, the circumstances would fit the description. Mr. Harrison also posted: of the nine queens produced from laying workers brood , eight did not return to the hive after a mating flight , OR WERE CRITICALLY INJURED DURING INSTRUMENTAL INSEMINATION. Reply: I have talked with others concerning this, and for your informaiton, it is the very reason that Harry Laidlaw was brought in to teach insemination to a couple over at the lab, so it wouldn't happen again. Mr. Harrison also wrote: What kind of experiment was going on here and why wasn't the instrumental insemination process outlined in the objectives part of the abstract? Reply: Please see reply given above. It was a learning process and UC Davis tried to help the Tucson Lab in my recollection. Lastly Mr Harrison wrote: Ps. I still feel like I am putting a puzzle together and a couple of the key pieces are missing. Reply: Yes, trade secrets are sometimes hard to get out of us commercial beekeepers. There is a time and a place based on the way the cards are dealt! and what is at stake! Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:26:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Maggots ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Question for all: I went to the bulletin board on beesource.com to check the posts there for unanswered questions that have been left unanawered in other areas. I found one I would like to respond to but am uncomfortable answering it. The question in Diseases is from a person in the USA: My brother and I disected a few of the bees that were crawling in fromt on my hives. In the abdomens of two of these bees, we found 1.5mm long maggots (5 in the first bee, 3 in the second) they looked liked bee maggots only much smaller. We looked inside a few healthy bees, and didnt find anything. What kind of maggots are these? where do they come from? is it a serious problem? Thanks. Now I pulled out my Honey Bee, Pests, Predators, and Diseases and looked to try to find a response to help. The nearest I can find is "Flagellates". Could I be wrong. Though won't be first time. Anyone with ideas on what the problem is so a response can be given to the writer? Sincerely Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little/Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Maggots ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have no idea if this is correct, but is it possible that they are parasitic wasp larvae? Mark in West Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:28:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <001901c232bb$1f5da860$72ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Bob Harrison > I posted in a early post the problem could take years to reach the level we > see in South Africa. I predicted if the cape bee is not stopped in South > Africa in 20 years capensis will be the only race of bee. I am not alone in > my thinking. Hello Bob - Maybe not alone in your thinking, but there are other viewpoints that are just as pointed. I find it interesting this one point that is made in the article Jim Fischer posted. "Yet, despite their seeming success in the Darwinian game of outbreeding the competition, the Cape bee clones are apparently incapable of establishing self-sustaining hives of their own." I find this to be quite a major bit of important info about the Cape bee. I will stay away from the claim you have been making that reportedly all of AZ bees have the Capensis trait as I can't prove a thing about it. What I do have some firsthand experience with is being around and seeing the Lusby's hives both at their out yards and in town. I wrote earlier: > Certainly this is not what ones sees with the Lusby's hives. What one sees is an abundance of growth in their bees, strong build-up and very active foragers. Foraging traits that most have never seen in their bees I would bet. Traits that most of us would love to have. Fly in colder temps, earlier/later foraging times, these are what I observed. In fact, I haven't heard of other beekeepers in AZ having this Capensis problem. The ones I've been in contact with don't mention this. > I do not know the level of pseudo queen activity in the Lusbys bees. Nor do I, but remember Dee has claimed that this trait of thelytoky has been observed by several generations of family beekeepers. All this data must be included in our discussion and not simply ignored if it doesn't fit our own explanation. It seems the tendency is to group all AZ bees into one neat bundle and call them X (X=AHB, X=Capensis, X=?). > If those slides Dr. Hoffman showed were indeed Lusbys bees as Dee claims then > there is only one way her bees could survive. Breed from those black > capensis workers and keep capensis queens in her hives. It should be made clear that it is your opinion, and not fact, that her black bees are capensis. I know of no one that can say what they are and show the proof to back it up. Let's be careful what we say. "Capensis like traits" is a far cry from being "Capensis." You're boldly stepping where no one has ever stepped before. > My concern: > AHb is documented in most of Arizona as pictured on the 2001 USDA map. The > USDA lab has pictures of AHB bees on their website IN ARIZONA. I believe I > have proven beyound a shadow of a doubt Arizona has AHB. "Having AHB" and "mostly AHB" are two different worlds. We must also look closely as to the methods used for determining Africanization (sp?). If you're talking about some of the AHB's that have been written/reported about that are extremely defensive and agitated easily, no one would desire these bees. On the other hand, I'm sure there are a multitude of hives that may have some degree of African genes that behave quite well and exhibit some very fine traits. Are we to label these bees with minimal percentage of these genes, Africanized? If so, what is the justification for it? > I was shown slides of pseudo queen activity by Dr. Hoffman Dee has now responded to this. I'm interested in your response to the part where she said that they have been shipping their bees around the country for several generations. This does not support some of the recent opposing claims being made. > Do you honestly believe there is > no AHb in Arizona and capensis type traits are a good thing for U.S. > beekeeping? Personally I believe there are AHB's in Arizona. Certainly not to the degree some claim it to be. I'm still waiting for an official stance on what makes a bee Africanized. What is the yardstick being used to determine this? Is it the right yardstick for the job? AHB is here and it's here to stay. We better learn to live with it. Erickson, Erickson and Young offered their recommendation: http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/bcoct86.htm "1. Develop a program of honey bee selection and breeding that specifically addresses the needs and capabilities of commercial queen and package bee producers: One that they can readily implement. We must recognize that the burden for the day to day work that will solve the AB problem in the United States must necessarily rest with beekeepers and queen breeders (public institutions/scientists are too few in number to accomplish this objective). If done correctly, we will minimize the effect of undesirable behavioral traits, take advantage of desirable AB traits and thus build a stronger bee industry than we have had. Adjustments in existing breeding programs will be necessary." Now 16 years later, is this out of the question and not possible? >> Rarely is something as bad as we first think it is, or could be. > > If you have got a solution for capensis please post as the situation in > South Africa is looking bleak. Bob, I don't believe there is solid evidence to support this claim that there are Capensis in AZ just like in SA. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:54:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bumble Subject: Re: Varroa in tropical climates In-Reply-To: <170.111a0c12.2a71c8b5@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey wrote: > Maybe not alone in your thinking, but there are other viewpoints that are > just as pointed. I find it interesting this one point that is made in the > article Jim Fischer posted. > > "Yet, despite their seeming success in the Darwinian game of outbreeding the > competition, the Cape bee clones are apparently incapable of establishing > self-sustaining hives of their own." I am losing the bubble in this discussion. If the Cape Bee is not self sustaining how is there a Cape Bee? It seems to do fine on the Cape. Beyond that, there are problems but with mixing with other bees North of the Cape. How does the Cape Bee sustain itself in its local region? Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... In-Reply-To: <3D43D49C.113D93D@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, >From the thread, and other reading, this is a summary: It appears that Cape Bees do fine in an all Cape Bee hive. If they go queenless, a number of workers will lay fertile eggs and a queen will be raised (rather than all drones in a "normal" laying worker hive), as the strong pheromones of the queen are absent and the nurse bees recognize the need for a new queen. Here, I would assume the laying workers are not active for long periods, just till that new queen is raised and starts laying, which would then stop the laying workers from increasing in numbers. Even if the old laying workers continued, this would just boost the numbers of normal workers available, so long as only a few of them were present. However, Cape workers in a non-Cape hive will start laying fertile eggs while the queen is still present. These become more Cape workers, of which many start laying, until there are a great many of them doing so, eventually resulting in the old queen being balled as defective. In the meantime, there are increasing numbers of laying workers and eventually all Cape Bee clones in the hive. For some (possibly unknown?) reason, no new queen is ever raised, even when all the bees, including nurse bees, are Cape Bee clones (possibly due to the large number of laying workers at this point?). Some where in this process, some or all of the Cape workers abscond and move into other hives, to start the process over. If someone has the answer as to why Cape psuedo-clones are raised as queens only in hives that started as an all Cape Bee hive, but never in hives that start out as another race (scutellata in SA), that would be enlightening. Karen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell .. If the Cape Bee is not self sustaining how is there a Cape Bee? It seems to do fine on the Cape. Beyond that, there are problems but with mixing with other bees North of the Cape. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan Hadley Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 25 Jul 2002 to 26 Jul 2002 (#2002-203) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lewis; Thanks. My email address is dhadley@cnfa.org , more info can be found on our website, www.cnfa.org , once the page loads, click on "agribusiness volunteer program" (on the left side of the screen). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:36:56 -0400 From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Ukraine Dan Hadley, There are probably quite a few people that may be interested. More information is necessary. Please post your email address for off forum discussions. ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim,Bill and All, In a off Bee-L discussion I am having the Jim Fischer post information below was brought up as needing further clarification . Jim is correct in his analysis in my opinion. I will try to clarify a complex subject with a simple answer. Many times works but not always. Excellent questions Bill! Cape bee clones doom a European hive (six to nine months is the time figure posted by Barry Seargant in a post of his last spring). Capensis hives ran by a capensis queen behave like other colonies. Jim Fischer posted. > > "Yet, despite their seeming success in the Darwinian game of outbreeding the > > competition, the Cape bee clones are apparently incapable of establishing > > self-sustaining hives of their own." Because Jim used the wording *cape bee CLONES* the above is correct. If the sentance had only said cape bee or capensis the above would not have been correct. Bill wrote: If the Cape Bee is not self sustaining how is there a Cape Bee? It seems to do fine on the Cape. Capensis when queenright behaves like all other bees with maybe a small amount of thelytoky. Thousands of hives of capensis are kept for honey production in South Africa. They are in their pure form not a big honey producer I am told. Bad blood exists between those beekeepers using scutellata and those keeping capensis when capensis is brought out of the cape area and used for pollination. I believe the scut beekeepers have a legitimate right to want capensis kept out of the area of their hives. The cape bee problem has been traced back to certain capensis beekeepers pollinating for money without caring about the scut beekeepers problems. > Beyond that, there are problems but with mixing with other bees North of the Cape. Barry Seargant of our list has posted that a certain percentage of Scutellata carry capensis genes but the exact amount is unknown. Both could exist together if not for the pseudoqueen problem which I and other have described and I am not going to take the time to go over again (please read my past posts). For those of you which still do not understand the process of hive parasitism of all other strains of bees by drifting capensis workers please read the recent articles of observations by Dr. Mangum made in the last year in South Africa in the American Bee Journal (August 2002 pg. 571 part 3). The articles cover many aspects of beekeeping in SA and also the cape bee and its problems to beekeeping are covered (although as not in-depth as I would prefer). Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:08:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: More on Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got a call from Theo Fredericks. Theo keeps bees on Vancouver Island, but worked as a boy in an all-skep operation in Germany and maintains his contacts there. He visits Germany periodically and sometimes is a speaker at some of their conventions. (He was president of the BC beekeepers a while back). Remembering that he worked with bees on natural comb as a boy, I thought he would have access to skep cell measurements, so I called him when I was looking at bees in Arizona. I asked what he knew about European cell sizes on natural comb. He has followed this up and asked a number of his acquaintances and authorities in Germany and Holland. He remembers, and also was told, that according to their measurements over time that the heather bee, A.m.m makes cells averaging 5.37mm, Carnica: 5.51 and what they call the Italian: 5.27mm. I report this for what it is worth. Also, as a follow-up on Joe and Oene's 4.9 experiment, Joe now reports that the bees have made a mess of the 4.9 foundation and, although they built some 4.9 cells, they then proceeded to build 'normal' sized cells on the rest of it. I hope to have some pictures soon. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:33:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The problem with capensis is... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen, Your explanation is correct. I would add that the clones do lay a high percentage of drones which adds to the problem in a European hive. Karen asks: > If someone has the answer as to why Cape psuedo-clones are raised as queens only in hives that started as an all Cape Bee hive, but never in hives that start out as another race (scutellata in SA), that would be enlightening. I have asked the same question of a number of researchers. Although there are several possible reasons the answer most given concerns pheromones of capensis. Capensis pheromones seem to be on a level different from all other races. In other words when a pure capensis hive loses a queen the workers miss the strong pheromone and raise a new queen. If the hive remains queenless for a period of time ( queen hatches and kills other virgin queens. flys out to mate and does not return)then clones can develop even in pure capensis colonies. Not exactly like in our hives when laying workers develop but very similar. Time is the key in my opinion. When capensis workers drift into non capensis hives and the European pheromones are lower(pssibly different) they simply do what the are programmed to do and start laying eggs. As with ALL thelytoky when the queen pheromone is gone thelytoky starts. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:57:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: FGMO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I spent the last week at Gormanston where we had a fantastic bee conference. Last Sunday I made a 15 minute video of the treating of an eleven hive apiary in County Wexford, in the south east of Ireland. This apiary is heavily infested with varroa - drones walking around with mites on them, bees with deformed wings everywhere, uncapping drone brood showing nearly every cell infested. All in all a sorry sight as the beekeeper had not treated. I will stay with the treating of this apiary using FGMO and who knows it may recover. Only time will tell. I gave a presentation on FGMO and showed the video to about 60 beekeepers from different countries in the local pub here in Gormanston. The federation of irish beekeeping associations would not allow me to show the video in the college as they do not support non Bayvarol treatments. A most enjoyable discussion was followed by a few pints of Guinness! The interest in the video was tremendous and many beekeepers asked for a copy of the FGMO Summary and indicated a willingness to pursue the matter further. I can say quite definitely that there is a ground swell against the chemicals here in Gormanston. I am arranging to contact Irish and British beekeeping associations with a view to presenting a lecture on FGMO and also showing this video. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Small Cell Update Comments: cc: BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Can you believe almost a month has gone by since my last update? Counted natural mite fall which averaged less than 1 mite/week/hive over the last 30 days. The maximum dropped in any hive was 3 mites/week and the minimum was zero mites. I decided to dust the hives with powdered sugar and count the resulting mite fall as I had done at this time last year. The average mite drop after dusting was 1.6 mites/hive! The maximum was 6 mites from my Harbo hive. The minimum was zero mites from the same hive that had zero natural mite fall. This hive is my most populous hive with 4 deep boxes of bees and brood. The rest of the hives have about 3 deeps with bees and brood. Still, no sign of uncapped purpled eyed pupa. A few pupa have been uncapped on a few frames at an earlier stage but no signs of the extensive cleansing activities that occurred last year. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:05:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: FGMO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All An exchange of posts occurred recently on the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List. The main point being made by some contributors was that they had doubts about the use of FGMO. I sent the following reply. >But surely the finest way to remove the doubts is to use FGMO. > >As far as I am concerned, I have been convinced by the experience of beekeepers in the USA and Canada over a period of two years, that it works. So I am using it. I suppose that I could spend the next 12 months arguing the toss about it - but in my view that is just an utter waste of time. > >And if your hives are clean does it not make sense to keep them that way? > >I sure would prefer to put FGMO into my hives rather than a component of sheep dip (flumethrin). Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and All, Hello old friend! One of these years I am going to cross the pond and meet the Irish beekeepers ! Tom wrote: > I will stay with the treating of this apiary using FGMO and who knows it may recover. Only time will tell. When varroa first hit we came across yards with infestations like you describe. Way past threshold. Dr. Shiminuki and others said we would be wasting our money(on chemicals) to try and save the colony. I like you tried to save a few yards. "Shim" was right. They died anyway. Important reasons not to try and save a hive which is way over threshold. They contain a huge amount of varroa and the foragers are still coming in contact with other colonies bees spreading varroa. As the hives get weaker (which they will in my opinion) they will get robbed out spreading varroa further. Colonies with infestation levels like you describe will abscond further spreading varroa. *Beekeepers in the area which did treat will get reinfested after their treatments are over from those hives.* I would move any hives left untreated or past threshold you are trying to save to a very very remote area or simply depopulate those over threshold. I don't mean to be the bearer of gloom and doom but varroa control is a tough game until all those uninformed beekeepers hives not trying to control varroa die off (which they will in a couple years). I speak from experience. I went through the situation you are now in years ago. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Review some of the posts I did on your list about varroa when I had time to do another list.