From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:41:09 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.3 required=2.4 tests=ALL_NATURAL,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D774907F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXZ010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0208A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 78299 Lines: 1820 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian O'Dea said: > The problem with the new Esch et al. theory is that if it > is true that optic flow is the basis for distance estimation, > this demands great accuracy as regards direction. I'd like an explanation of how an estimate of a distance makes "demands" upon an estimate of direction. Aren't the two completely isolated vectors, presented by the dancer in two unique movements that can be measured independently? Regardless, why not explain the details of the mechanics of the "locality odor" theory you support, rather than talking exclusively about the "dance" theory you do not support? You could start by answering some of the specific questions I posed in a prior message in this thread, addressing each point in turn. I'd sure like to know, because the conditions I cited are common daily events. As for dance, any error in distance or direction, unless massive, would be acceptable due to the simple fact that flora tend to grow in groups. Although an error in direction would get "worse" with longer distances, a 5 mile flight with a one-degree error would put the bee "off target" by a mere 460 feet. Below is a table of distances, degrees of error in direction, and maximum number of feet "off target" as a result: Distance 1 Deg 2 Deg 3 Deg error 1 Mile 92 ft 184 ft 276 ft 2 Miles 184 ft 368 ft 553 ft 3 Miles 276 ft 553 ft 830 ft 4 Miles 368 ft 737 ft 1106 ft While it is obvious that larger direction errors over longer distances result in larger drifting of "target points", note that the more reasonable foraging distances where bees are easy to find most any day (less than 3 miles) allow for quite a bit of error in direction without enough "target drift" to matter if one is speaking of stands of trees, fields of clover, and other flora. Errors in distance also have minimal impact due to the fact that a bee dance represents distance by a "length" of a short "run" of a bee. Therefore, the error can only be expressed as a percentage, and when the distances are small, so are the errors. Another table, this time distance percent error, and feet "off target": Distance 1% 2% 3% 4% 5% error 500 feet 5 ft 10 ft 15 ft 20 ft 25 ft 1000 feet 10 ft 20 ft 30 ft 40 ft 50 ft 1 Mile 52 ft 105 ft 158 ft 211 ft 264 ft 5 Miles 264 ft 528 ft 792 ft 1056 ft 1320 ft It follows that far-off sources will be rarely exploited as well as nearby sources, simply due to "target drift" from errors in measuring or communicating distances. It also follows that most bee dances will be "about" distances that are within a few miles of the hive, since more foragers will find the advertised source, return to the hive impressed with the forage, and dance themselves, recruiting more foragers. The above may explain why so many experts share the opinion that most foraging takes place within a few miles of the hive. Longer distances, combined with imprecise measurement and/or communication, result in more foragers getting "lost", and returning without gathering anything. It also should be noted that feeding stations are the worst-case "small target" for bees. They are unnatural and unrealistic, in that there is no such thing as a single plant at a single point that can be a worthwhile source of forage for a colony. So, I'd guess we should scrap the feeding stations, and start tagging the bees with small RF-reflective targets to correlate to maps of what grows where. Jerry Bromenshenk may have lots of this sort of data already, as I recall he was tracking bees with radar. In short, yes, bees CAN loose their way, but only when longer distances are involved, and target areas are small. The evidence of common experience seems to support a conclusion that there is error in both measurement and communication. Live with it. The bees seem to. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > It also should be noted that feeding stations are the worst-case > "small target" for bees. They are unnatural and unrealistic, in that > there is no such thing as a single plant at a single point that can > be a worthwhile source of forage for a colony. There is an example of a point source of honey: a colony that is too weak to defend itself. Or, if one is foolish enough to leave an uncovered honey super in the back of one's truck. It is well known that once a weak colony is found (during a dearth) that it will be quickly plundered. If you move this hive, the bees will hover around its spot for several days, having "memorized" its location. Same goes for the super in the truck. If robbers find anything in the back of my truck, they may form a greeting committee at that spot awaiting my return -- and further handouts -- even when the truck is not there. Another example of a point location is when a colony is seeking a new nest site prior to swarming. Studies have been done on the bees use of the dance language to "persuade" their nestmates of the superiority of one site over another. Apparently, honey bees use the information in the dance to locate and visit the potential site, and then return with their assessment of it. Bees have been observed to carry out sort of a lobbying process where different factions campaign for different sites, until a consensus is reached. In addition to a well developed sense of distance and direction, bees must also have a good sense of height. It is known that they do not mate below a certain height and that they prefer to build nests high in trees, given a choice. Finally, they are aware of the time of day. Bees trained to feeding stations where the bait is put out at a certain hour will learn to return at that time. (There are honey plants that yield nectar only at certain times of day, hence the usefulness of this ability.) -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:29:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" [Tom] Seeley and [Susannah] Buhrman used swarms in which every individual bee was marked with a number, and they videotaped the entire process. "What's marvellous about bees is that the decision making is quite transparent", says Seeley. From the videotape, they could see which bees danced for which site, and monitor the popularity of each site, relative to the site that the swarm eventually flew to. As they expected, at first there are bees dancing for different sites. Then one site grows in popularity. More and more bees dance for that site, until eventually all the scouts are dancing for the same site. As soon as that happens, the swarm flies. To understand how the bees always choose the best site, you need to track the behaviour of individual scouts. By painstakingly observing dozens of hours of videotape, the scientists first watched bees who began dancing for a site that was not eventually chosen. They discovered that these bees do not later change their minds and convert to the best site. They simply stop dancing. But the real surprise came when they looked at bees who began dancing for the chosen site. Many of these bees also stopped dancing before a decision was made. So the consensus is not reached because the bees who have found the best site never shut up. Instead, a scout bee is programmed to do its dance for about a day and then to stop. "The decision is made by a process of differential recruitment", says Seeley. More and more bees visit the better site, because they have seen other bees dancing so hard for it, until all the bees left dancing are just dancing for one site. "This is a very friendly way of reaching agreement", Seeley adds. "The scout bees do not compete aggressively with each other". As humans, we are not very good at making group decisions. We wrangle, debate, argue, and persuade, but we usually end up resorting to a voting system, in which some people get what they want and others have to go along with it. "Bees gain a consensus without any individual changing its mind or losing", says Seeley. "This is a remarkable system to emerge from some very small-brained animals." http://www.bbsrc.ac.uk/news/features/00jan/00_01_bees.html Seeley writes: We found that when a scout bee returns to the swarm cluster and advertises a potential nest site with a waggle dance, she tunes the strength of her dance in relation to the quality of her site: the better the site, the stronger the dance. A dancing bee tunes her dance strength by adjusting the number of waggle-runs/dance, and she adjusts the number of waggle-runs/dance by changing both the duration and the rate of her waggle-run production. Moreover, we found that a dancing bee changes the rate of her waggle-run production by changing the mean duration of the return-phase portion of her dance circuits. Differences in return-phase duration underlie the impression that dances differ in liveliness. http://link.springer-ny.com/link/service/journals/00265/contents/00/00299/s002650000299ch002.html -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:02:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Observation Hives MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The research entomologist at a Midwestern university has an observation hive in his office with a 1 1/2 inch of PVC pipe to the outside allowing the bees an exit to the outside and they seem to get along fine. Another instance is much the same in one of the city parks in Columbus Ohio and they also get along fine. As with most observation hives the will take constant "baby sitting' for brood and stores supply. I never have figured out why, except that in such a narrow confined space the hive temperatures fluctuate wildly and the presence of light plus pheromone disruption probably place the hive under untold stress Dan Veilleux & Janet Montgomery Vilas, NC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:55:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Observation Hives Try this one: http://www.gandboss.demon.co.uk/ Many more good links (now nearly 300) on our Association website: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk > >>> I wonder if anyone has had experience with having an observation hive > at a county fair where the bees have the ability to leave and return to the > hive. I'm thinking of setting up a hive that would have a tube that would > allow them to enter and exit through the roof of the building. Is this a > crazy idea? <<< > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:07:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Julian O'Dea: > The problem with the new Esch et al. theory is that if it > is true that optic flow is the basis for distance estimation, > this demands great accuracy as regards direction. Jim Fischer: I'd like an explanation of how an estimate of a distance makes "demands" upon an estimate of direction. Julian O'Dea: If you refer to the recent Esch et al. paper in "Nature", you will see that the authors themselves, despite being dance language believers, see the problem. As their data show, the "information" on distance contained in the dance varies hugely depending on the direction to the resources. So, the authors write, "... there must be a high selection pressure to ensure that a dance signals the direction of the food source as precisely as possible." However there is evidence that direction information is also not accurate (Vadas, 1994): Vadas, R.L. 1994. The anatomy of an ecological controversy: honey-bee searching behaviour. Oikos 69: 158-166 and at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/oikos94.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:53:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: More on Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Regressing bees to a small cell size is not an easy process. I have learned much about bee behavior especially concerning drawing out comb. It is a subtle process and not easily manipulated by the beekeeper. As a commercial beekeeper using the large cell wax foundation, my major effort involved the actual construction and embedding of the frames. As long as adequate nectar was coming in the timing, placement and the bees behavior were of minor importance. With the use of plastic little mattered except the actual construction. What didn't get drawn, didn't get chewed and would be finished later. So we would toss a box on during a major flow and pick it up at the end of the season. With small cell wax foundation the bees behavior is everything. Frame placement, timing, frame manipulation and the bees needs are critical even in hives that contain the smaller bees. Anything perceived by the bees as outside the needs of the broodnest won't bee drawn to the small dimensions. Forget drawing the small cell during a major honey flow. The bees only build the larger cells then. It takes lots of experience and the willingness to learn from mistakes to get it right. Boy, I'm still learning the hard way. I have lots of new comb ready for the melting pot. I have been involved in testing some new 4.9 plastic foundation. My hope was that the bees would be forced, opps choose, to construct the small cell comb. Then supers of the stuff could be drawn out like I did in my commercial large cell days. The juries still out on this aspect as a severe drought has curtailed any kind of honey flow here. At least they don't chew it during their idle moments :>) When the subtleties of drawing out good frames of small cell are combined with downsizing a larger bee, the task is even harder and more expensive. I think that's a factor in the Lusby's recommendation to initially use starter strips in frames. Get the bees downsized using the resulting natural comb and then go for the good 4.9 comb and small cell bee in the last steps. Don't give up Joe. I have found that any hive that survives the process will do a fair job of drawing the small cell. In the USA bees that will readily draw small cell are available. Russian queens raised from a Bernard's Apiaries breeder did a fair job, although they liked to supercede lots. Queens raised from Tom Glenn's Russian breeders also did a fair job the first time. Bolling Bee runs their operation on 4.9 and can supply package bees and queens that readily draw the small cell. David Miksa runs his queen rearing operation on the older Dadant 900 series comb and his bees are also downsized and ready for the small cell. Some thoughts and no commercial endorsements Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:52:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Small Cell Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Waldemar, My hives are in 4 deep boxes now but will be reduced to 3 deeps for winter. I previously overwintered my hives in 2 deeps, a practise carried over from my commercial experience. However, I don't migrate and have found that the bees overwinter better in 3 rather than 2, similar to the studies noted in the Hive and Honeybee in the chapters on overwintering. Also the extra feed insures an adequate food supply during late winter through early summer. Often the weather here is very unsettled and a strong hive can easily starve or destroy brood during the bad spells. A slower developing hive will often have extra frames of honey which can be easily used for splits, etc. Pollen is often preserved under the capped honey and can be more important than the honey itself. Overall I probably could extract more, but most who run only 2 deeps here end up feeding syrup at a very critical time around the first of June. I haven't noticed any decrease in my hives production. I think larger colonies are produced earlier which produce more honey and offset the additional stores left behind. Also the bees don't have to be disturbed during our cold, windy springs. Also, I have been infected with a bad almost incurable disease from my commercial beekeeping days. It seems I am always adding hives or equipment or expanding. Anyway my wife has been giving me some nasty looks lately while trying to get out of her car and around my bee equipment in the garage. An extra box on the hives helps in that situation. :>) Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Migration Dances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Migration Dances [excerpts] Recent studies of two tropical honey bees have uncovered evidence of a different style of dance communication in the indication of migratory direction. One of these species is the African hive bee A. mellifera scutellata, and the other is the Asian rock bee A. dorsata. In both species, colonies make seasonal migrations of tens or hundreds of kilometers in response to regional shifts in rainfall and the availability of floral resources. Migrating colonies of both A. dorsata and A. mellifera scutellata depart directly from the natal nest on a long flight in the migratory direction. In both species, the dance has been modified to play a role in organizing the initial move. The migratory dances begin a few days before colony movement, and by the time the colony takes off, dozens of bees perform dances. These dances signal the compass direction in which the colony ultimately departs, and hence resemble nest-site dances on reproductive or absconding swarms. They differ in interesting ways, however. First, whereas dances on swarms contain accurate information about both the direction and the distance of the new nest site, the migratory dances are accurate only with respect to direction. Migratory dances are much more variable with respect to the distance signal than are dances to discrete resources. Furthermore, the average duration of the waggling run is extremely long, corresponding to flight distances of many tens or hundreds of kilometers. Such distances are well beyond the flight distances that bees could be expected to travel from the nest. http://ento.annualreviews.org/cgi/reprint/47/1/917.pdf -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Tuned Error in the Divergence Angle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Tuned Error in the Divergence Angle [excerpts] A peculiar feature of the waggle dance of A. mellifera noticed by von Frisch was that waggling runs are consistently aligned in the direction of the food only when the flight distance is fairly long (i.e., several hundred meters). In dances to short distances, successive waggling runs diverge from each other, alternately missing to the right and left of the true direction. Von Frisch described a steady decrease in this divergence angle as flight distance increased. Haldane & Spurway suggested that divergent dances tend to spread out recruits so that they would more rapidly discover the full extent of a floral resource distributed in a patch rather than as a point source. Furthermore, the decrease in the divergence angle with flight distance was explained by the fact that patches of a given size would subtend a smaller angle at the nest when at greater distances. Thus, the divergence angle was interpreted as a source of useful error, optimally tuned to the spatial distributions of resources in the environment. Towne studied three tropical species of Apis (A. cerana, A. florea, and A. dorsata), which he reasoned would be confronted with flower patches that would typically be small (e.g., single flowering trees) in comparison to flower patches in temperate zones. The tropical bees would therefore be more heavily penalized by a large divergence angle at an equivalent flight distance. As predicted by the tuned-error hypothesis, all three species showed divergence angle only at short flight distances. Their divergence angles were reduced to less than 5 degrees for flights of only 150 m. Races of A. mellifera from temperate regions, by contrast, show divergence angles of 20-25 degrees at equivalent flight distances. In short, both experimental and comparative data provide support for the hypothesis that spatial precision of the dance, and the dispersion of search activity by recruits, is adaptively tuned in a way that corresponds to the spatial distributions of resources being communicated. from THE BIOLOGY OF THE DANCE LANGUAGE, by Fred C. Dyer http://ento.annualreviews.org/cgi/reprint/47/1/917.pdf -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: More on Cell Size In-Reply-To: <20020801.205409.-231011.4.BWrangler@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Murrell wrote: > With small cell wax foundation the bees behavior is everything. Frame > placement, timing, frame manipulation and the bees needs are critical > even in hives that contain the smaller bees. Anything perceived by the > bees as outside the needs of the broodnest won't bee drawn to the small > dimensions. > > Forget drawing the small cell during a major honey flow. The bees only > build the larger cells then. I am a bit confused by this. I understand that a central belief amongst 4.9ers is that allowing bees to draw what is believed to be natural sized comb is the secret to keeping them healthy. Why then all this work to get them to do what it seems they do not wish to do? Also, I wonder whether somebody experienced with comb in feral bees can comment on whether they build a different size of cell in the broodnest area than they do elsewhere? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Draft paper on dance language for comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian O'Dea said: > If you refer to the recent Esch et al. paper in "Nature", > you will see that the authors themselves, despite being > dance language believers, see the problem. They said no such thing. They implied no such thing. They did not even hint at it. Here is a link to the paper, in Adobe pdf format, so all can read it. http://www.klab.caltech.edu/cns186/papers/bee-dance.pdf They did not even suggest any sort of "problem" that might call "dance" into question as the mechanism used by bees to communicate about forage sites. In fact, by fooling the bees with "optical illusions", they verified that the current interpretation of "dance" is accurate, and that recruited bees tend to go where the dances direct them, even when the dancer has been "fooled". By using odorless sugar solutions, they also added yet another set of detailed and repeatable experimental results to the very tall pile of results showing that "odor" is not required for bees to find a nectar source, report that source to the colony, and recruit others to travel to the same location. They were even able to manipulate the environment with a tunnel to fool the bees, proving that they clearly understood the mechanisms at work in great detail, understood how to interpret the dances, and how to use the dances to predict where the recruited bees would go. > ...despite being dance language believers... The phrase "dance language believers" is an unacceptable accusation of bias. The letter presents certain experimental results, nothing more. The statements made are all well-supported by the data presented, and the conclusions are conservative in light of the data presented. > ...see the problem. The word "problem" does not even appear in the letter. What they actually said was: "Why did the recruited bees search at twice the distance we expected from the distance calibration curve of Fig. 1?..." "...in this series of experiments, the recruits also read the dances of tunnel bees like a human observer and responded accurately." "The fact that calibration curves are different for flights in the southern and northwestern directions implies that the distance calibration of a bee's 'odometer' is not absolute; rather, it depends on flight altitude and the nature of the landscape through which the bee flies. This is to be expected from a visually driven odometer. The flight path to control stations in the southern direction led up a slowly ascending hill. The 120-m control site was 10m higher than the hive, and the 450-m control site was 30m higher still..." So, they saw no "problem", what they saw was that bees measure distance based upon visual input, (optic flow), and will dance a distance vector based upon that optic flow. > As their data show, the "information" on distance contained > in the dance varies hugely depending on the direction to the > resources. Again, they said NO SUCH THING! Please re-read the letter! What they said was: "...the distance calibration of a bee's `odometer' is not absolute; rather, it depends on flight altitude and the nature of the landscape through which the bee flies." The "direction" was nothing more than the position of their tunnel in various tests. > So, the authors write, "... there must be a high > selection pressure to ensure that a dance signals the > direction of the food source as precisely as possible." Yes, they did say the above, but there is no implication in the letter that this is a problem for "dance". It should be obvious that natural selection will tend to kill off strains of Apis that cannot forage efficiently due to imprecise communication about food sources. It follows that, in a natural setting, bees will, if left alone to survive or die on their own, get "better" at precisely communicating dance vectors. > However there is evidence that direction information is > also not accurate (Vadas, 1994): The paper by Vadas you cite can be read here: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/oikos94.htm It is a mere editorial masquerading as a literature review. It presents no new experimental results, it simply tells once side of a long-winded story. It uses terms and phrases not appropriate in scientific dialogue, thus revealing the author's lack of objectivity, such as: "...at best ignored, at worst chastized and censored..." "...battle of the personalities..." "...paranoid villain..." "...antagonism..." "...philosophical implications..." "...did not give up the fight..." "...philosophical perspective..." "...Kuhn..." (mere mention of that person's name will prove just how quickly one can be sent to the trauma center with multiple contusions by a group of mild-mannered, hard-working, and physically unimposing scientists.) Of course, one can talk about BOWIE Kuhn, Commissioner of Baseball from 1969-1984, with many scientists and have an interesting and friendly discussion. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:42:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Another stinging fatality A woman was killed yesterday in Arizona and strangly enough, the hive hasn't been found: Bee attack proves fatal for allergic woman Associated Press July 31, 2002 16:00:00 SIERRA VISTA - A 46-year-old woman who was allergic to bee stings has died after apparently getting stung several hundred times, authorities said. Cheryl McClain and Ted Richards, 36, were attacked by the bees Tuesday afternoon in the Pearce area where they both lived. McClain was reportedly dead at the scene when paramedics and deputies from the Cochise County Sheriff's Department arrived. Richards was airlifted to Tucson Medical Center, where he was listed in stable condition. Both victims had hundreds of bee stings on their bodies and authorities were searching Wednesday for the bee hive. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:04:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: More on Cell Size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Dennis wrote: > With small cell wax foundation the bees behavior is everything. Frame placement, timing, frame manipulation and the bees needs are critical even in hives that contain the smaller bees. Anything perceived by the bees as outside the needs of the broodnest won't bee drawn to the small dimensions. Reply: This is true! What we are basicly doing by regressing honeybees back onto a Natural system is to give control back to the bees for keeping the inside of the "Man Domesticated Environment of the Hive Interior" in proper balance. It is a belief that we have followed for years, as I believe in the basic principles associated with Yin/Yang phil in working our honeybees. Having honeybees placed onto a natural system again means that you work the bees to be in harmony with a natural system. Comb building is therefore timed to suit the bees and not man. Comb building is to follow the bees, not man! Dennis also wrote: > Forget drawing the small cell during a major honey flow. The bees only build the larger cells then. Reply: Yes and No! For the most part I would not suggest any beekeeper new to regression of honeybees back to natural comb sizing to try drawing the foundation on a major honey flow.It simply will not work as there are limiting factors involved. However, once your bees are acclimitized and fully regressed then the situation changes as you work your colonies back up to mega-size colonies for production. We ourselves are now drawing 4.9mm foundation in our 4 & 5 deep supers. However it does take applying certain principles and working within the harmonious relationship re-established within ones colonies, and also having knowledge of structure of wild feral colonies and how they naturally build combs. I imagine that this will be a new philosophy for our industry to learn and associate with. Frank wrote back to Dennis: I am a bit confused by this. I understand that a central belief amongst 4.9ers is that allowing bees to draw what is believed to be natural sized comb is the secret to keeping them healthy. Why then all this work to get them to do what it seems they do not wish to do? Reply: But they do wish to do it and observation will show this. However with close observation comes understanding and then applying what one is seeing, which means changing colony management practices as to how combs are drawn out and managed (positioned/culled) in field working methodology. Timed properly to fit the bees needs, drawing 4.9mm foundation is not a hard thing to do. It just takes time and patience and relearning how to work with the bees' needs and not against them for control of parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases. Frank then inquired: Also, I wonder whether somebody experienced with comb in feral bees can comment on whether they build a different size of cell in the broodnest area than they do elsewhere? Reply: NO! And perhaps with industry for over 100 years this is the biggest point in misunderstanding the internal workings of drawing foundation and comb within a domestic man managed colony of honeybees. Bees given the preference and proper placement of foundation/combs only draw drone/honey and worker/pollen/honey combs. Also the vast majority of combs in the wild is worker comb or the smaller size. It's just understanding this, and how to use the combs to match the wild side, and work bees on a harmonious system that naturally controls parasitic mites and secondary diseases, that is virtually untaught in our beekeeping industry worldwide. Namely the methodology of the different drawing times of the two major comb sizes, and then how to work/manage them for production, which is really not hard. Man has gone bigger for so long, how many beekeepers can honestly say they have see a hive properly managed with natural stores of pollen, honey, propolis and comb, to match the wild side in harmonious balance for control of parasitic mites, sedondary diseases, breeding, crop, etc. Now right here I wish to say I have let the various discussion groups know that plastic 4.9mm is now a reality and some of it has been forwarded to a few industry beekeepers for trials. So far the results have been more then what could have been hoped for. The major future breaking news will be coming out of Florida with Michael Housel and his study, which has recently expanded and is going more then even I could have been hoped for. Because of what discovery Michael Housel has accomplished in such short of time, I am trying to get clearance to help him expand further, the broadness of his personal study for the benefit of industry, and greater volume of plastic foundation with which to continue working on the new field management methodology relative to honeybees. Because of what Mr Housel has already discovered, we are already fine tuning our colonies here in Arizona, to help him varify what he is seeing along with a few other select beekeepers, and I am sure his paper when written will be well received by many. REgards, Dee A. Lusby Regards, Dee A. Lusby REgards __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:21:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Draft paper on dance language for comments Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, jjbmail@selway.umt.edu, joschmid@u.arizona.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Every couple of years the dance "language" controversy re-surfaces on this and on other e-mail networks. Julian O'Day's manuscript (posted on 7/26) provided the stimulus for this latest exchange. A major problem with this controversy (as with all controversies) stems from the inability of participants to separate out the issues and address them one at a time. We used the following 1987 quotation of Bruno Latour on p. 353, in our 1990 Columbia University Press book (ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY: THE QUESTION OF A "LANGUAGE" AMONG HONEY BEES: "We have to understand first how many elements can be brought to bear on a controversy; once this is understood, the other problems will be easier to solve." The following items are important issues in the "language" controversy: 1) Elements of the waggle dance maneuver. 2) Accuracy of information in the dance maneuver. 3) Whether searching bees "use" waggle dance information. 4) Early research on successful odor recruitment to crops. 5) Bee sensitivity to odors. 6) Beekeeper "use" of the "language" hypothesis. In our 1990 book, Pat Wells and I addressed each of those issues at length. Subsequently, additional information has become available. Fortunately, Barry Birkey has now provided a platform long denied those who disagree with the "language" interpretation. Those interested in our role can begin by accessing the following web site: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/readme.htm Julian O'Dea's draft manuscript focused on the third item in the above list, but most of the postings on BEE-L addressed other issues. One can readily find my response to most of the points raised in the past several days in the three dozen listed items in www.beesource.com/pov/wenner The content of Julian's manuscript actually closely parallels material published by von Frisch in 1937 and 1943, as well as work by Russian workers during the same period (as Peter Dillon pointed out: Khalifman's 1939 book). Ronald Ribbands reviewed that research in his 1953 book. In a paper I have coming out in September, I include the following passage: "Beekeepers could assist growers greatly if they could direct honey bees (Apis mellifera) from their hives to one specific crop or another; that was the goal of a group of Russian bee researchers and of Karl von Frisch in the 1930s and early 1940s. By the simple process of inserting odor into a colony, they could increase visitation to a crop. Ribbands (1953:184) summarized some of the odor-directed results obtained by two Russian researchers; he reported that Kapustin obtained a 24-fold increase in honey bee visits and a doubling of the seed crop, while Gubin had a 19-fold increase in the honey bee population on red clover, with a trebling of the seed crop. Gubin also found that bees successfully trained by feeding scented syrup inside the hive visited vetches, sunflowers, and lucerne." In his 1937 and in 1943 papers, von Frisch had obtained comparable results to those reported by the Russians. However, both of his salient papers became essentially lost with his invention of the language hypothesis. One can now find the 1937 paper on the following web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/bw1993.htm The 1943 paper, in German, had been translated by the IBRA. One can find English excerpts of that paper at the following web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943.htm It should come as no surprise that the existence of these von Frisch papers essentially disappeared from consideration this past half century. The text of Julian's draft manuscript meshes well with those early findings of von Frisch and the Russian workers. As to the sensitivity of bees to odors, recent work with the location of buried land mines by honey bees illustrates the extreme sensitivity of bees to trace amounts of odor. It also means that those who claim that bees can be recruited without the use of odor may have merely had an artifact in their experimental designs (Jerry Bromenshenk might comment on that point). Von Frisch was also adamant about the need for odor during recruitment (see above web sites). See also: ODORS, WIND AND COLONY FORAGING. Part I of Three Parts: The Need for Odor. Am. Bee J., 138:746-748. October 1998. A comment on point #6 is in order. What beekeeper heads to the bee yard and ponders how best to exploit the dance "language" hypothesis to improve his operation that day? No, millions have been spent on the examination of the bee dance maneuver (the symptom of what a forager has experienced), without any obvious benefit to the beekeeper during this past half century. What research of importance to beekeepers could have been accomplished with those same funds? Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:43:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: Observation Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Janet, a major reason why observation hives must be baby-sat is that they have way "too much" queen. Instead of having 10 or 20 frames in which to lay, in OH's they only have two (hopefully not just one!). Thus they tend to overpopulate and brood must be switched out to a full sized hive or they will swarm. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:46:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Draught paper on dance language for comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/08/02 05:01:56 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << if one is foolish enough to leave an uncovered honey super in the back of one's truck. If you move this hive, the bees will hover around its spot for several days, having "memorized" its location. Same goes for the super in the truck. If robbers find anything in the back of my truck, they may form a greeting committee at that spot awaiting my return -- and further handouts -- even when the truck is not there. >> Last year I took some supers from an out apiary and loaded them in the back of my blue car. There were a few dozen bees in the supers so I drove around in a circle, stopping every quarter mile or so to let them out and fly home. I then drove back to my "home" apiary on my allotment and opened the back to allow the last few stragglers to escape while I attended to something else. I then drove home. Later that evening my next door neighbour who has an allotment close to mine mentioned as a curiosity that a number of "wasps" had entered his red car when it was parked where mine had been after I had left. Not having seen the offending insects I could offer no reason for this odd behavior in wasps. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:06:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: More on Cell Size I wonder whether somebody experienced with comb in feral bees can comment on whether they build a different size of cell in the broodnest area than they do elsewhere? I possess at this time two hives which contain all natural comb. These have top bars but no foundation. The comb is predominantly worker comb with drone combs built later at the bottom and edges of the large expanse of worker comb. At some point we intend to measure the proportion of drone to worker. There may be a very small amount of transition comb, but the notion that there are three cell sizes: worker, small worker, and drone, strikes me as erroneous. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:55:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: More on Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank and Everyone, My experience indicates that bees do draw different size cells in different areas of the hive for different purposes. The smallest cells are in the broodnest area. Cells on the periphery are larger drone cells and honey storage cells. That's why it's so difficult to get them to draw one size cell consistently across a frame which can be interchangeable used throughout the hive. I think the concept of a moveable, completely interchangeable frame anywhere within the hive creates some problems these problems. When a larger cell comb is placed in the broodnest mites get out of control. When the smaller cell is placed in the honey super the effects on the bees are unknown but it can be more difficult to extract. The difficulty in getting the bees to construct one size cell indicates to me that more than cell size is important. Maybe the dynamics of not only where bees construct what size cells is important, but also maybe when they use these different size cells throughout the season is as important. Would the bees occupy an area of the hive in the spring and raise larger bees there? A good discussion concerning these possibilities has been raised by Barry Birkey on BiologicalBeekeeping in Yahoo Groups. Some there have noted that not only do feral hives comb structure vary vertically, but the comb spacing often varies horizontally. Could a horizontal dynamics be also possible? Wow, great questions and a great challenge to share, Frank. I think there are lots of questions related to comb that could be as significant as my experience with cell size. I don't have much experience with feral colonies but Dave Green has some excellent pictures of a feral colony at www.pollinator.com/feral/feral_examination1.htm . Anyone have any photos to share? Pointers to other sites? Observations? I have read that Mark Winston and Roger Morse located and measured feral hives. Is their research available? Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:51:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Draft paper on dance language Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, jjbmail@selway.umt.edu, joschmid@u.arizona.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In the message I posted on BEE-L yesterday, I included the following statement: As to the sensitivity of bees to odors, recent work with the location of buried land mines by honey bees illustrates the extreme sensitivity of bees to trace amounts of odor. It also means that those who claim that bees can be recruited without the use of odor may have merely had an artifact in their experimental designs (Jerry Bromenshenk might comment on that point). Von Frisch was also adamant about the need for odor during recruitment (see above web sites). See also: ODORS, WIND AND COLONY FORAGING. Part I of Three Parts: The Need for Odor. Am. Bee J., 138:746-748. October 1998. One can read that article on the following web site; http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjoct1998a.htm Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Honey Stix and Food Labeling Laws MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got an interesting call yesterday from a friend that owns a chain of health-food stores. He was selling "Honey Stix", the plastic soda-straw-sized containers filled with honey. He was only offering the "plain", not the flavored versions, selling them next to the cash register. I do not know where he got them. I do not offer them, as it is obvious that honey must be heated to high temps to liquefy it to fill such small diameter tubes, and I limit my heating of honey to the minimum required to resurrect any retail packages that become crystallized. Rather than a fancy point-of-sale display, he had a simple candy jar, labeled "Honey Stix" containing the honey stix. The Virginia Department of Food and Drug Inspection visited one of his stores, and said that they would have to be removed from the store, because they were not labeled properly. The employee speaking with the inspectors got the impression that the "problem" was that the individual Honey Stix packages were not labeled. Of course, this fellow asked me how one might "label" such containers. My off-the-cuff reply was "with a loooong narrow label", but I honestly do not know. Another interesting facet was that, since the Honey Stix were not labeled, and all the jars of honey for sale had my labels, the inspectors may have gotten the mistaken impression that the Honey Stix also were "mine". The consumer might also make this mistaken assumption, so I am forced to defend my own reputation, and suggest that the point-of-sale display, if not the individual Honey Stix, should be labeled with a producer name, packer name, and country of origin, as is required for jars of honey. Has anyone else run into this scenario? I ask because most inquiries of this sort tend to be based upon concerns that are shared amongst inspectors in more than one state. (Hey, they likely have their own newsletters, mailing lists and UseNet newsgroups, just like beekeepers...) Does anyone know just how hot the machines that pack these things heat the honey? I'm assuming that the honey is heated to the point of minimum viscosity to speed handling. ...and has anyone tasted the flavored versions of these things? >From which planet do those "flavors" come? To my tastebuds, all those flavors are both overpowering and appear to be flavors hitherto unknown to the tastebuds of mankind. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:36:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Open Mesh Floors I have used thymol crystals for varroa since it appeared here in the autumn of 1997. The only other treatment used has been oxalic acid (dripped) for the first two years. This year I have purchased 40 OMFs as I believe that they may have two advantages (already well publicised - mites not being able to return and better overwintering through the increased ventilation). However, I am wondering whether the improved ventilation is likely to reduce the effectiveness of the thymol vapour (method is given here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm). Presumably this would apply to a number of other treatments using substances that evaporate or are dispensed as a fog. Does anyone have any useful experience or sources of information? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:13:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Fw: [Norlandbeekeepers] Re: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All In general I dislike cross posting, but in this case a question has arisen out of a discussion about propolis and propolising on another list. It is an unusual question that may well be more appropriately asked in this forum. ----- Original Message & Forwarder----- From: Dave Cushman To: Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] Re: Propolis > Hi Joe > > I would like to explore this a little further... > > I said... > > > Do they put coin shaped dollops near the ends of the > > > topbars? > > Joe Said... > > I have seen dark round hard dollops on the top bars in > > Italian hives. > > In the intervening 24 hours between these two messages, I have been thinking > about this and there is something about it that I do not understand. > > OK the race of bees in my case was mongrel with a high percentage of > Italian, but I am not concerned about any racial linkeage. I wish to explore > the 'why'... One thing that I remember (I have not observed this dollop > behaviour for about 15 years) is that the dollops were reasonably regular in > size and were placed about the same distance from each end of each top bar. > > It is this straight placement that is rankling in my mind... What governs > the positioning? If it were the limits of the nest the rows of dollops would > be curved or at least bend inwards at the ends. > > The obvious thing is that the inner face of the box is parallel to such > placement, but that still begs the question as to what the relationship is > between dollops and box. > > > Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY > Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:37:24 -0400 Reply-To: Judy & Dave Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Judy & Dave Subject: Re: Observation Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A beekeeper asks for experience with a hive at a county fair. We always take our observation hive to our county fair. Crowds love it. Kids want to touch it and find a queen. However, I would strongly urge beekeepers to not take a working or open hive to a fair without some way of containment and absolute control. A few years ago we had our hive and 3 spots from our booth was a booth with sno-cones (shaved ice with flavoring in a cup). Apparently there were yellow jackets and some bees all over that booth, on the counters, on the dispensers, etc. A young boy, around age 13, came to our booth and asked who owned the bees in the observation hive. I was so thrilled that the boy was interested in nature and he was perhaps combining some religion in his quest for knowledge. So I launched a discussion about bees specifically and nature generally. He interrupted me and said he was not interested in nature, he just wanted to know who owned the (expletive deleted) bees because they were bothering everyone and we needed to get our bees out of the fair. I then explained they couldn't be our bees because our bees were securely locked in the hive. If we were immediately identified, even if erroneously, as the culprit, I cannot imagine the trouble you would be in if one of 'your' bees stung someone who was allergic and on the other side of the fair at a food booth. Just my opinion, but I would be wary. Judy in Kentucky, USA > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 08:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Another stinging fatality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim, According to US Department of Agriculture, Arizona, in fact, is the ONLY state that is infested with AHB in its entire counties while Texas, the first to be affected, is not. Check the fact: http://agnews.tamu.edu/bees/ and more: 1.Rarely does an EHB colony sting a person and kill under the worst circumstance. 2.Slightly smaller than EHB, Apis Scutellata, to say the obvious, lives in a smaller cell without being helped by anyone. 3.The first AHB in Arizona was reported in July, 1993—almost a decade ago, which explains why many colonies in Arizona live in a smaller cell. 4.Well-established is the fact that AHB is resistant to mites. 5.Arizona climate is ideal for the Scuts because of the abundant POLLEN sources. 6.Their propensity to swarm means they need a whole lot of pollen for brood- rearing. I share this, for I refuse to be hoodwinked. Dr. Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. Chair/Humanities Division St.Gregory’s University Shawnee, OK 74801 yskim@sgc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:36:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Regression Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Frankly I am a bit puzzled about regression. If building small cell sizes is natural why do we have to force the bees to do it? Surely if we have to slowly get the bees to build smaller and smaller cell sizes, must this not place them under stress as we seem to be going against what they wish to do at that point in time? And my final question, do I hear mutterings of capensis traits and is this being linked to regression? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 21:24:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Another stinging fatality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dr. Kim & All, > I share this, for I refuse to be hoodwinked. > I refuse to be persuaded in any direction until there is a more definitive conclusion presented, like documented DNA analysis. None of these reasons you gave are conclusive to me and I refuse to be hoodwinked too. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:44:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: More on Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the past I have removed a frame or two from the hive with the intention of replacing it in the immediate future and then forgot to do it for a few days. Of course the bees drew out a comb to their own liking. What I've usually noticed in these circumstances was that new natural cells generally looked slightly larger than the cells bees drew out on standard foundation. This year I was provided with a couple packages of 4.9 Caucasian bees. The bees had already been retrograded. (Sorry, if that’s the wrong word. I haven’t kept up with the vocabulary.) One of the hives has been trying to raise new queens on it’s own. A frame and nurse bees with one of the queen cells was placed in a nuc along with another frame of pollen and honey. The queen hatched, mated and has been laying. Only two frames were placed into the nuc. The other day I checked it. Bees had begun to make another comb attached to the nuc’s cover. The cells I noticed appeared to be the same size as the original 4.9 foundation. FWIW Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:13:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Another stinging fatality Beekeepers: Listed in latest edition of The Hive and the Honey Bee, on page 1230, are the death rates in the U.S. from various causes. Honey bee stings were listed last in frequency. Overexertion killed more people, as did lightning, horseback riding, freezing, and radon gas, to list just a few. Some of the numbers listed are from the Vital Statistics of the United States (1986). Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 06:53:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Hooker Subject: Colony Population Size I am trying to identify work on the size of Apis colonies, ie the population counts at different times of year especially spring. Can anyone direct me to useful papers. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:58:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Observation Hives/Fair Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: For a detailed overview and plans for observation hives, get a copy of Dewey Caron's book. As per an open hive at a fair, the comment about being blamed for wasp/yellow jacket/hornet stings is absolutely correct. Also, never set up an open observation hive in a public area when the public is present. For the first hours, and even the first days, the bees will be orienting. That means they will explore nooks and crannies, drop down near the ground, etc. I made that mistake years ago and spent a full day playing traffic cop, keeping bees and people separated until the bees came home for the night and I could move the hive. I opened the hive through a 2nd story window, facing out over a sidewalk. The hive went in Saturday. Had rain till Monday. About noon on Monday, chaos prevailed. Bees came roaring out of the hive with the sun, dropped down to about 5 ft above the sidewalk, and streaked outward, following the sidewalk between a building and a tennis court. People literally hit the dirt (or concrete) in this case. Now I'm careful to open a new hive on a Friday night just before a weekend with the expectation of good weather. By Monday when everyone shows back up on the campus, the bees have sorted it all out. I fly a hive from my office window on the first floor, and have for years. People eat picnic lunches on the grass under the hive. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:51:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Draft Paper on the Dance Language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adrian wrote: that bees can be recruited without the use of odor may have merely had an artifact in their experimental designs (Jerry Bromenshenk might comment on that point). We are preparing a major article on bees and the performance characteristics of odor search. The results of the trials are impressive. We managed to separate the dance as well as food reward from area searching by the bees. We kept bees searching all day long for targets by odor alone, and did that for 36 days. Having stated this, I'm not going to provide further comment because the journal that we are submitting to is very sensitive to prior release of the information. Have patience, we hope to see the full story in print soon. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:30:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Honey Stix and Food Labeling Laws Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> James Fischer 08/04/02 06:54AM >>> said (among other things): >Of course, this fellow asked me how one might "label" such >containers. My off-the-cuff reply was "with a loooong narrow >label", but I honestly do not know. An easy way to label them with as big or small a label as wanted would be to use a label with a sticky back that could wrap around the straw and then stick to itself so as to make a "flag" on the straw. It could be made to come to a "point" like a pennant, or could be square, rectangular, or any other attractive shape (maybe a skep-shape) and color that your imagination can come up with. (Oops, my mother always taught me that "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put," and there I've gone and broken that rule. Sorry, Mom.) Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:17:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susanne Subject: Apistan & Menthol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George Imirie wrote: I am sure that my DATES of INSTALLATION of both the menthol and the fresh Apistan strips are the key to success. Question: You mention that the apistan strips are put in the brood area Oct. 1st. = Would this be the bottom brood box at that time? The menthol treatment = is for tracheal mites and is done July 1st. How do you go about doing = this treatment? Thank you, Sue=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:48:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Payton Subject: no brood-what should I do? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I inspected one of my hives a couple of days ago and found no brood whatsoever though there is still a relatively large population of workers. In my last inspection, before a vacation a number of weeks ago, everything looked fine, so I'm assuming that I've lost my queen and the hive is dying. My other hive is strong. What I'm wondering is if it is too late to try to save the hive (too late for the hive, but also too late in the year) by getting a new queen and bringing in brood from the other hive. My concern is that I'll end up with two week hives going into winter rather than one strong hive. Is it still early enough in the year to try to save this hive? Should I just leave it be? Try to combine the hives to at least get some benefit from the surviving workers? Thanks, Mark Payton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:52:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Open Mesh Floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mini experiment with OMF over two winters and three summers in Maine has proven to me that they are not all they are cracked up to be, at least in cooler climates. Granted, mine is only one data point, but the results seem to correlate with the weather we experience in Maine. I have two hives on omf and one control with a solid bottom, so the experiment is not all that rigorous, but the results track with what I would expect with lots of ventilation. In Maine, we can go from hot to cold in a day in the middle of summer. We had a cool spring and did not warm up until late. And we have had a roller coaster summer as far as hot and cold. The day before yesterday we had fans running and I was wearing shorts. Yesterday I was wearing a sweatshirt and long pants and today is only a bit warmer. The cool summer is reflected in the strength of my colonies. The closed bottom hive is out performing both omf hives in number of bees and nectar brought in. To me, the omf hives are having to expend more energy keeping the hives warm than the closed bottoms and that, over the season, has put them at a disadvantage. The difference is very noticeable. How they handled varroa is still to come. But right now, my method of use for omf will be to keep them closed except when I treat for varroa or run drop tests. No more leaving them open all season. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:30:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Open Mesh Floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > I have used thymol crystals for varroa since it appeared here in the autumn > of 1997. The only other treatment used has been oxalic acid (dripped) for > the first two years. Peter, could you expand a bit on how you treat with both Thymol and oxalic acid- the formulation and methods of treatment? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:23:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Re: no brood-what should I do? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, By all means re-queen. Many beekeepers re-queen in the fall so they will have a good population in the spring. Good luck! Denise Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:20:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey Stix and Food Labeling Laws Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <01C23B8C.2854EDF0.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:54 AM 8/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >Of course, this fellow asked me how one might "label" such >containers. There are reduced labeling requirements for small items such as this. See candy and other small food products for examples, many don't even have nutritional requirements, though honey would not require nutritional requirements anyways. Minimum requirements are: Product (honey), producer, contact information (city and state only are ok if you are listed in a public directory), weight (in oz and grams). Ingredients and nutritional information is not require for pure honey. There is a font point size requirement but I don't recall exactly what size it is. Some states have additional requirements. (Ohio for example had a bill that would have required the words 'home produced' added to labels when produced in a facility that wasn't inspected. That bill did not pass, btw.) See http://www.fda.gov/opacom/morechoices/smallbusiness/blubook.htm for detailed information. >Does anyone know just how hot the machines that pack these >things heat the honey? I'm assuming that the honey is heated >to the point of minimum viscosity to speed handling. I don't know how they do it, but it certainly would be possible to do such without a lot of heat. It wouldn't take much to inject honey into a straw at moderately warm temperatures 80-100 F. That said, it's entirely possible they do overheat the honey to make things faster. You would probably have to contact the maker of each. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:48:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Coumaphos Resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I now read that there is resistance to Coumaphos in four American states. What do beekeepers do now in those states, especially the commercial beekeepers? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dunlin Ireland