From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:39:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1BA4906E for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sE010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0209B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 145232 Lines: 3352 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:38:32 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: small colony update - bald brood. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, The bald brood is indeed associated with wax moth infestations - it is = very common here and was present before the arrival of Varroa in 1982. Roger White Superbee Cyprus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 07:40:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Baldy brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Peter wrote > >Is this correct? If so, what is the explanation for bald brood before > we had varroa? Denjis wrote > Some posts from New Zealand indicate that bald headed brood can occur > without any obvious mite infestation. I have written on another list that I see it regularly here in Australia. It can sometimes be associated with wax moth larvae but most of the time there is no observable reason why it is happening. I have examined the cells by pulling the larvae out, finding nothing untoward, and I most definitely do NOT have varroa. I have seen it for years and it was always put down to some genetic trait as we here in Australia had been getting breeding stock from the USA for many years prior to 1983. Spring seems to be the main time to see it although autumn (fall as you call it in the northern hemisphere) is another common time. I happened to see one of our breeders with some baldy brood yesterday. About 4 cells in different places, so it could no have been a wax moth larvae. For wax moth it is usually cells that linked together with raised edges. Years ago when I first saw it I was working with our State Department as an Apiary Inspector and the common thought, other than genetics, was that they were raising so much brood in spring, with the expansion, that they didn't have time to cap it. I wasn't in favour of this theory but throw it in for what it is worth. So this baldy brood is certainly present in hives over here and is not associated with varroa in this part of the world. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 09:49:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: small cell colony update In-Reply-To: <001f01c254a7$091a8600$31b8193e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001f01c254a7$091a8600$31b8193e@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards writes >Is this correct? If so, what is the explanation for bald brood before we >had varroa? > >Peter Edwards >beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk To back Peter up on this, we have had both the phenomenon of bald brood AND chewed out brood (this thread does not seem to be distinguishing between these two very different things) pretty well throughout my beekeeping life (about 40 years). Bald brood seems to have some genetic link and is apparently a benign condition which comes and goes. Chewed out brood is also common, and seems to be linked to defects in the brood, I believe of a nutritional nature. It is very common here late in the season, and ALWAYS has been, but can occur at other times too. This is NOT nutrition problems linked to starvation, but more due to lack of balanced diet. In autumn our bees have almost nothing but heather pollen to feed the brood on, and are extremely persistent in their attempts to find any other pollen they can get to supplement this. They work a small flower called Tormentil throughout the heather season, apparently in an attempt to find a different pollen. There could be a trace mineral (or some other factor) problem causing malnourished brood. I do not dispute what the 4.9ers are seeing, as I cannot see why the change would stop the chewing, but it might be the only thing it has cured is the beekeepers observational skills. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 07:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Extractor Parts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently was given a Kelley(?) 50 frame extractor that must be an antique. However it works, but could use a tune up. Can anyone direct me to a site or phone number of someone that might handle parts for these old extractors..I need to replace the round clutch that engages the pressure plate on top of the extractor. It is a wheel a little bigger that a Copenhagen snuff can and is made up of many fine layers of some material that is sandwiched together. It is worn on the leading edge..I think I can reverse it and it should last a while, but it really needs replacing.. The man that gave me this machine use to spray a little belt dressing on the wheel to make it grip better..Thanks in advance..Will Lewis, Union County, Florida. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 11:29:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: small cell colony update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, Dennis wrote: The lowest natural mite fall was 0 mites and the average mite fall > was 1 mite per hive per week over a 3 week period. I do not want to take the wind out of the forty niner's sails but there seems to be a curious phenomenon happening across the U.S. Something for which I have not got a explanation but is only being witnessed by those beekeepers willing to test and treat only when necessary. We are getting mite drop similar to to Dennis with our larger cell foundation. I have got no explanation for the phenomenon. Other beekeepers have suggested several possible scenario's. A few scenarios suggested: A disease or infection killing varroa The high temperatures produced by drought conditions for sustained periods effecting the varroa.. unknown problem with varroa reproduction. Are others on the list which are testing and then treating only when mite loads approach threshold seeing the same thing as I and others are ( I would guess less than 1 or 2% of beekeepers fall into the test before treating category) If so any ideas as to why we are observing the phenomenon and are others seeing the same phenomenon on the list? Have any researchers had beekeepers report what I am reporting or seen the same in their testing? To sum things up I am not seeing high varroa levels in production hives . those hives do not have a SMR queen. I did not get the time to requeen with a SMR queen and now wonder if I need to at this point and time. If so any ideas as to why varroa would be disappearing from our hives in large numbers or at least mite loads falling *way* below threshold in the fall? Is the phenomenon happening only in the areas of draught across the U.S.? If varroa was disappearing on its own for unknown reasons then many could say their methods are working. Only with varroa testing as Dennis, Peter and others on the list are doing can we be sure our chosen method of varroa control is working. As several have pointed out in the discussion. Why spend the money and effort to treat if treatment is not needed? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. When the draught was going on in Georgia and Florida many claimed success controlling the small hive beetle with various methods. The rains came and the SHb was back with a vengeance. Many beekeepers were caught unprepared. Is the low rate of varroa we are seeing only a temporary situation caused by unknown issues? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: mite levels, 2002 In-Reply-To: <001f01c25754$ef445f20$66ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello Bob, and all Up here in upstate NY we were hearing reports of high levels by August. I did ether rolls on 100 or so hives. Except for one yard of 24 packages, nearly every hive had high ether rolls for this time of year. One yard, treated with Apistan in April, by mid August had 5 hives so far gone from varroa that I folded them. 5 more looked hopeless, too sick to recover. Only four from that yard looked normal for this time of year. That yard was our very best yard in spring, 14 strong triples. The mite levels were overall about 10 per 250 bees, many in the 20 to 30 range and some well over 40. The package colonies were all strong, made a super or two of honey in July, had levels of 0 to 2 mites over 250, which is par for mid August. In an area like this where there migratory beekeepers, it is feasible that our hives have apistan or even coumaphos resistant bees. I have been told that in southern USA, people are maintaining bees without treatments. David de Jong claims that untreated hives can develop varroa tolerance (coexistence) and suggests foregoing treatment as the route to get it. But in the Northeast USA, I believe that this would not work. Untreated hives do not survive thru fall, let alone winter. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: small cell colony update In-Reply-To: <001f01c25754$ef445f20$66ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Bob Harrison > As several have pointed out in the discussion. Why spend the money and > effort to treat if treatment is not needed? > > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > > Ps. When the draught was going on in Georgia and Florida many claimed > success controlling the small hive beetle with various methods. The rains > came and the SHb was back with a vengeance. Many beekeepers were caught > unprepared. Is the low rate of varroa we are seeing only a temporary > situation caused by unknown issues? Hello Bob - Your Ps sums it up well. I'd be very cautious about how you interpret your low mite count for the very reason you state about the SHB. The major difference between Dennis, and I assume you, is that Dennis has not treated his bees for a couple of years. Let's give this some more time to see how it all pans out with no treatments on yours and Dennis' before we claim anything, as it may very well be just a bump in the road, only to come back stronger the next year. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:40:15 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Tamas Subject: Jenter System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Yes,it's very easy to rear queens using Jenter System. I never use Nicoh system but I can tell you another similar system who = work very easy "Ezi-queen system" coming from NZ.Thanks to Mr. Tony = Fraser-Jones I did use this system this summer and work very well.You = can try it. George ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Filtering beeswax In-Reply-To: <00e701c25767$31db5160$3967e9d5@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife and I are about to begin producing beeswax candles in a more serious (ie higher volume) way. One particular that I have not worked out yet is this: How can one efficiently filter large volumes (several hundred lbs at a time) of beeswax to make it suitable for fine quality candles? For the small numbers we have been making so far we have been pouring it by hand through cheese cloth and various other things, but the wax quickly hardens on them and the process is labour intensive. Any suggestions? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I too was having trouble cleaning wax and wondered how to purify it. When at the Heartland Beekeepers Workshop series I became acquainted with a fellow beekeeper who has a chemistry background. We started talking about beeswax, etc. She said if you melt your wax over water and acidify the water with vinegar the impurities stay below the wax due to a chemical reaction that I do not understand. I haven't tried it yet but will be doing wax soon and will use this method this year-nothing ventured nothing gained! Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:16:42 -0700 Reply-To: mejensen@pacbell.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:21:36 -0400, "Frank I. Reiter" wrote: >How can one efficiently filter large volumes (several hundred lbs at a time) >of beeswax to make it suitable for fine quality candles? Frank, I use a large restaurant aluninum stock pot and added a 1/2 in. ball valve 5 in. above the bottom. This pot holds 5 gal of distilled water to a line just below the valve. I then add about 90 lb of unprocessed beeswax and heat the whole thing on a gas hot plate til the water boils, taking care that the wax does not overflow and burn the house down. I let it gently boil for 1/2 hour or more to clean the wax. Then the heat is turned off and the pot is left to sit to allow the dirt to settle below the valve. The longer it sets the more dirt settles out, but not so long as to not be able to flow out the ball valve. Then I open the ball valve and slowly run the liquid wax through a paper cone filter sold by restaurant supply houses for filtering cooking oil. The resulting wax is crystal clear and makes premium candles. Good luck. Mark Jensen mejensen@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:07:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Menthol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I put menthol on my hives nine days ago, I checked them today and many on the hives seems to have a smaller number of bees. Will menthol drive bees from the hive? I am located in Northern, VA. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:09:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax Comments: To: BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU|Informed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heat the wax. Heavier impurities sink to the bottom, lighter impurities such as bee parts, float. Skim the top with a colander and then dip with a small bucket the wax on top. Use stainless steel. I process 40-60 lbs at a time without difficulty. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:33:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, Peter and Everyone, I have seen a few of the mite cycles while keeping bees commercially. But then we routinely treated all hives. My few untreated hives are surrounded by thousands of commercial hives and these guys are routinely treating all their hives without knowing what the mites levels are until the hives collapse. Then they change to a different chemical and treat again. So I cannot say what the mite levels in the surrounding area are but it would be interesting to know. Some of the cycles seem to be more related to the operation rather than the climate as some of the commercial guys in this area have reported severe problems while there neighbors reported routine levels but I doubt they did much if any real testing. Great idea a national mite survey. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 02:13:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax Hi Frank: Do you have Richard Taylors booklet 'Beeswax Molding and Candle Making'? Great little 38 page booklet. He writes about a home-made melter made from a couple of 5-gallon cans. The lower can melts the wax. Above it is a can with hot water that flows through spigot to the melted wax below. The melter he says "refines the wax to the utmost purity". He also mentions adding a few spoonfuls of vinegar to the water. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 06:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susanne Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > She said if you melt your wax over water and acidify the water with vinegar > the impurities stay below the wax due to a chemical reaction that I do not > understand. I haven't tried it yet but will be doing wax soon and will use > this method this year-nothing ventured nothing gained! > > Coleene By over water, do you mean in a double boiler, or put the was right on water? Thanks, Sue ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:21:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Jenter Queen Rearing System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all There have been many recent comments on "graftless" versus "grafting" systems of queen rearing. My few cents worth follows the main trend... I have used both Nicot & Jenter kits over many years, as they were intended to be used (I must say with better success than most seem to be reporting), but I no longer bother with the comb box itself as I find a more consistant age of larvae, by eye and just plain grafting. There are a selection of types of grafting tool shown on the page http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/graftingtools.html Among them is a picture of the Chinese tool that Mats was asking for. I am sorry that the picture of the Czech one is "missing" at the moment. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:38:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 In-Reply-To: <20020909.193431.-220553.4.BWrangler@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:33 PM 9/9/02 -0600, you wrote: > I doubt they did much if any real testing. Great idea a national mite > survey. Right, but there would have to be a standard test. I mentioned the ether roll and George made a comment about "that damn ether roll" which he neglected to explain. Is there a feeling against doing the ether roll? I think it is the most reliable quick test. A better test is to put the bee sample in alcohol and agitate till all the mites come loose, and strain them out for counting. But I assume the objection (since George didn't say) is to killing the 200-300 bees needed for the sample. I would liken this to taking a blood sample in humans. They won't be missed. I imagine a colony loses anywhere from 500 to 1500 bees every day to attrition. I bet a quick thunderstorm would take out that many. I have always thought of the colony as the thing, not the individual bees. I know this is how *they* operate. But I realize some people are squeamish about killing bees and I respect that. I just don't believe it is avoidable in normal beekeeping. pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020910093039.009fddd0@postoffice4.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some published paper claimed the ether roll and sugar roll (basically the same, but no dead bees) were not reliable in predicting true mite levels in hives. Overnight drop tests (with no drugs) apparently were much better in doing so. And the roll tests don't use those tired old field bees -- you need nurse bees for anything like reliable results (just don't scoop upthe queen). -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst Is there a feeling against doing the ether roll? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Purifying beeswax for candle production Frank asked how to 'efficiently' purify hundreds of pounds of beeswax to a candle grade. First, what is a candle grade? Roger Morris once told me how to tell is to burn some. If it smokes, drips, or both, the level of impurities are too high. Candles made following of the replies that I have seen so far on Bee-L will not meet this test...at least for processing 'hundreds' of pounds. I only know of two relatively SAFE ways of processing large quantities of beeswax to a true candle grade. One is to buy the Maxant Series 900 Wax Processing tank. Around $600, I think. 978-772-0576. It works by vigorously boiling wax and water, allowing the gunk to fall to the bottom, then draining off the pure wax on the top. This is a large self-contained and self-heated unit that really does the job. The second method, which is considered a closely-guarded secret by some, is to use the same kind of filtering device used for processing maple syrup. As these devices are 'mass produced' they are relatively inexpensive for the amounts they can safely process. The entire filtration line is constantly heated, which is a requirement when working with beeswax. A variety of filtration devices can be used, including diatomaceous earth. Should you choose to go that far, you can produce 'white' beeswax (its natural color) as the diatomaceous earth will remove the grains of pollen that gives beeswax its 'normal' yellow color. Many companies manufacture this equipment. As a start, try Dominion & Grimm. 802-893-3487. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Right, but there would have to be a standard test. I mentioned the ether > roll and George made a comment about "that damn ether roll" which he > neglected to explain. Is there a feeling against doing the ether roll? I > think it is the most reliable quick test. It seems to be the preferred test to determine mite load. Generally, after all the other treatments are done, the ether roll will give a good determination of the effectiveness of treatment. Maybe there is something new about ether rolls, but I share Peter's comment that it is "the most reliable quick test". But happy to be enlightened if it is not the best, since sugar, apistan and cumophose are certainly not. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:41:07 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Purifying beeswax for candle production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLOYDSPEAR wrote: > A > variety of filtration devices can be used, including diatomaceous earth. > Should you choose to go that far, you can produce 'white' beeswax (its > natural color) as the diatomaceous earth will remove the grains of pollen > that gives beeswax its 'normal' yellow color. I separate and melt my cappings with an old Maxant (I believe out of production) capping melter. It produces clean beeswax. The resulting wax is beautifully yellow and fragrant. Why would someone want to filter their wax until is is a colorless white? Isn't the whole point of "pure beeswax candles" to present a product which is bright yellow and fragrant? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:51:25 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Uncapping knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Halle. Is anyone out there using a hand-held, electricaly heated knife for uncapping? If yes, is it working well? Using a knife like that, do you simply cut the wax level to the upper and lower bars of the frames? Are there any negative aspects to using a knife? What is an affordable method for separating such wax from all the honey that you cut off with it? (Affordable as in economically OK for a 20-30 hive operation). /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:10:48 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst asked: >> Is there a feeling against doing the ether roll? Karen Oland answered: > Some published paper claimed the ether roll and sugar roll (basically > the same, but no dead bees) were not reliable in predicting true mite > levels in hives. While there are some who may quibble with me over arcane technical points of statistics, I will make a claim: It simply does not matter which approach you use! Any of them will work well for the purpose at hand. Pick one, and stick with it. Why do I say this? Because all methods of counting varroa are "sampling methods", and none of these sampling methods has ever been shown to my satisfaction to have ANY consistent connection to any "true mite level". Therefore, I contend that there simply is no reliable way to predict "true mite levels" in hives with any accuracy. Now I will make an statement that may seem outrageous to some: A practical beekeeper should not care about the absolute number of mites in a hive! What matters is using a consistent sampling and counting methodology, and looking for the change in the number of mites you count using your (consistent) methodologies. When mite counts start to show signs of exponential growth, take off the supers and treat the hive, or risk losing it before Halloween. All that matters is the "delta" between counts of mites you CAN find, the change over the last three or four readings. Everyone seems to want to follow some sort of "K.I.S.S. principle". They want a magical way to do ONE test, and, based upon some arbitrary number in isolation, know if to treat or not. Forget it - it is a foolish fantasy. Never let a fool kiss you, or let a kiss fool you. To mangle Shakespeare, and mix sonnets with plays (a multiple-count felony in most jurisdictions): "When I do count the drop that tells the time... To treat, or not to treat - that is the question!" To bee, or not to bee, that will be the answer. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen and All, > Overnight drop tests (with no drugs) apparently were much better in > doing so. And the roll tests don't use those tired old field bees -- you > need nurse bees for anything like reliable results (just don't scoop up the queen). All methods of guessing the number of varroa in the colony are of course only guesses and can be off by quite a bit with either test *but* they are all we have came up with so far. As Karen so accurately pointed out the roll tests should be taken from the brood nest which involves opening the hive but analysis can be done on the spot with no return trip. The drop test requires two trips but not opening the hive. In my opinion both the roll and natural fall have got their usefulness. I prefer the drop method for several reasons but still use the rolls at times and get the information I need from both. Even checking a couple hundred bees at the entrance can give information pointing to a very high varroa infestation in late fall. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:03:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Baldy brood ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & M Weatherhead" To: Sent: 07 September 2002 22:40 Subject: [BEE-L] Baldy brood >autumn (fall as you call it in the northern hemisphere) Oh! no we do not - not in England!!! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:58:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee1Bob1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warning to all beekeepers in the east Warwickshire area of England. There has been a very large case of AFB in the Nuneaton and Coventry area. A large beekeeper with many hives has multiple cases, I have heard over a 100 colonies infected. So If you are near by check you hive, listen out for news from the Bee Unit of CSL and don't accept any equipment or bees without considering if they are safe! Please remember that if you suspect you have AFB or EFB then by law you must contact the CSL or you local bee inspector. Bad news for us in the area. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:12:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Current Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any idea what the limit is for the price of bulk white honey in North America? I thought $US 1.00 a pound was pretty good, but have heard as high as $1.62 US for bulk honey in drums! Has anyone here a good understanding of the market and how long the price can stay this high? Has anyone heard of other prices for other sales? I just got an offer for $ 2.10 CAD (US$ 1.34) for a load of white honey without even bargaining hard. I'd like to hear comments from anyone anywhere with any idea of where this is headed. http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Uncapping knives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:51 PM 9/11/02 +0200, you wrote: >Is anyone out there using a hand-held, electricaly heated knife for >uncapping? If yes, is it working well? Works well for me. I simply cut resting against the top and bottom bars like you said. Running 8 or 9 frames makes this much easier as with 10 the comb often doesn't stick out far enough and I have to use a capping scratcher. The cappings fall into a small uncapping tank and the honey is drained from the bottom when full. This doesn't reclaim all the honey, but really doesn't do a bad job. The uncapping tank I use is about the size of a brood chamber and really isn't big enough for my 30 hives. When running 8-9 frames you get a lot of honey and wax in the tank and it fills up too quickly so I can only work two hours before letting the tank drain overnight. I plan on upgrading this for next year. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:59:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Re: Purifying beeswax for candle production In-Reply-To: <3D7F1DC3.EA931F7E@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:41 AM 9/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >Why would someone want to filter their wax >until it is a colorless white? Isn't the whole point of "pure beeswax candles" >to present a product which is bright yellow and fragrant? Greetings I worked at the Knorr Candle Factory in San Diego, for many years. They purchase thousands of tons of beeswax and it is processed for candle making. Basically, the wax has to be graded before filtering. Raw beekeeper produced beeswax ranges from light yellow or tan to dark brown. Some types of wax can be made white, and some types are naturally yellow, depending on the type of honey that was used to make the wax (by the bees). For example, cotton honey wax came in tan or brown, but would filter out very white. Eucalyptus or Montana sweet clover, on the other hand, can not be made white by ordinary filtration. (It could be bleached white with sulfuric acid, but this is seldom done, since it destroys the odor and makes it gummy).The impurities such as pollen and propolis do contribute to the color of wax, but some waxes are naturally yellow or brown colored. Why white? Well, the Knorrs make 30 some different colors of pure beeswax candles, including ivory. For certain colors, such as blue, the wax must be nearly white. Other colors that have a yellow cast, such as brown or orange, (or very dark ones like purple or black) can be made with yellow wax. The Knorr's filtration consisted of melting about 1000 lbs. of raw wax in a vat with about a foot of water. Once melted, it was pumped into an agitator tank and various powders were added, including charcoal, clay, and diatomaceous earth. This was agitated and then pumped through a filter press for some time. In a filter press, the powders are trapped between a series of aluminum plates and the wax must pass through filter paper. Once it has gone through this process long enough, it would be pumped into a holding tank. If hot wax is held over a flame for a long time, it will darken as well. By the way, they also made foundation, which is what I did there. Most of the yellow cast wax was made into foundation, and the very white was saved for the candles that were to be colored or sold white. The sorting of the raw wax was a fine art that Henry Knorr had learned over the course of his life. He was a machinist by trade and built most of the equipment used in the manufacture of his candles and foundation. I agree that there is nothing more beautiful than a bright yellow candle, but there is a market for colored candles as well. Still, this may not be a concern of the small producer who is using his/her own wax and can sell it all uncolored. pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:26:53 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Uncapping knives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed it seems to me that removing the cap with the least damage to the comb would allow the bees to refill the combs quickly. so what is the best way to remove the caps. is there a way to keep a taut wire just hot enough to melt the wax as you slide the frame across the wire. then flip the frame and do the other side. any thoughts. david _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:41:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: separateing cappings from honey Mats asked if there was an efficient and cost effective way of separating cappings wax from honey for an operation of 20-30 hives. Yes, there is. Here in the US a few companies used to offer such equipment, but now only one company does, Kelley. It costs about $250 and is a worthwhile investment. I will explain how it works as the Kelley machine is nothing more than something that beekeepers used to make for themselves. The principal is that honey changes to a liquid at a much lower temperature than beeswax, so will flow away from the beeswax if given the chance. Heat needs to be applied indirectly so that the honey is not ruined and so that the beeswax will not catch on fire! Construct a 'double boiler' so that water is below that honey and wax and the honey and wax is heated by the water rather than directly by the heat source. This 'double boiler' is called a melter. The bottom of the 'boiler' should be flat so it can sit directly on the heat source if necessary. Better yet it to insert a immersion heater into the boiler, seal it so it will not leak, and use a thermostat. Above the 'boiler' should be a container to hold the cappings. This should be constructed so that it slants to one direction. The warm honey and hot wax will exit the container here, and the exit should be covered by a screen of some kind. Make the screen removable for cleaning. The warm honey and hot wax will flow to another container below the melter. This container is called a wax separator and separates the wax from the honey by taking advantage of their different melting points. Make this from a stainless or galvanized pail. On one side, put a baffle that extends about 3 inches into the pail, attaches to the inside pail wall, stops about 1" from the bottom of the pail and extends to the top of the pail. on the pail wall INSIDE the baffle, cut an opening and insert a plastic pipe (1" opening is fine) to the outside. This opening should be about 1/3rd from the bottom of the pail, and at least 3" above the bottom of the pail. How this all works is as follows: 1. The cappings are put into the melter. The water heats the bottom of the cappings and the honey turns to liquid at about 120 degrees and runs out of the melter through the screen. Eventually, the wax will also turn to liquid (at about 140 degrees) and will also run out and through the screen. 2. The honey is first into the separator and very quickly cools to about 100 degrees (5 minutes or less). It accumulates until it runs out of the separator through the pipe. This is excellent honey, not overheated, and can be sold or consumed. 3. Eventually, the wax in the cappings will also melt and run into the separator. In the separator it will sit on top of the 100 degree honey and never get behind the baffle. It will quickly cool and be a nice yellow color. Depending on the size of your separator, one load might hold all the wax from 20-30 hives. I'd say two loads at the most. Leave the wax and honey in the separator until the honey reaches room temperature...several hours. Then remove the cake of wax. On the bottom you will find some debris, most of which can be removed with a hive tool. The remainder can be removed by melting the wax cake and running the hot wax through a fine cloth. Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:15:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: mite loads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison asked if other "test-before-treating" beekeepers are seeing = very low mite loads this summer. =20 FWIW, yes, we are. We restocked a bunch of last winter's dead-outs with = Russian packages this spring, and were gratified but not overly surprised= when the July and August 24-hour sticky-boards (with or without Apistan)= showed no mites at all. But we were surprised when the surviving over-w= intered colonies (mongrel Buckfasts and Italians and caught swarms) showe= d the same negative results. This is unusual. Normally we see lots of v= arroa drop at this time of year. =20 We're in an isolated area of Louisiana, and as far as we know, we're the = only beekeepers in this parish. The next nearest kept bees are probably = Adee's big operation in Wilkinson county, Mississippi, maybe twenty miles= north of us, so we've wondered whether what we're seeing here is more wi= despread, or whether we've simply killed all the varroa in our little are= a. Apparently, from what Bob says, it's not just us. If so, then maybe = there's light beginning to show at the end of the tunnel. =20 =20 We had been treating religiously twice a year since 1995, at first with A= pistan until it lost its effectiveness here two years ago, and with Couma= phos since. We had lots of mites in past years, but none now. Amazing. = Last January, we treated our survivor hives with Coumaphos, and the new = Russians (installed in April) were not treated at all. No colonies, Russ= ian or "native", have been treated since, and none has mites. Normally w= e would have been seeing untreated colonies crashing by now. =20 This apparent mitelessness seems not to be restricted to the Russians. =20 =20 Walter Weller =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:47:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Current Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone have any idea what the limit is for the price of bulk white > honey in North America? To be truthful the only limit is the amount of honey available and the desperate state of the packer. Packers which have made record profits at the expense of beekeepers for as long as I can remember will have to dip into their bank accounts and buy honey at record prices to keep from losing accounts. The packers will run at a loss until the honey supply changes. As in the spring of 1996 many which wait for the prices to climb further will end up getting less for their honey because in a world market the prices can come down as fast as they went up. !.20 - 1.25 U.S. is the price range in the Midwest today but we have heard of higher prices being paid by a few desperate packers. > > I thought $US 1.00 a pound was pretty good, but have heard as high as $1.62 US for bulk honey in drums! Several packers are close to bankruptsy. 1.62 U.S. is not a lot of money if you do not get your money. Choose your packer wisely. > Has anyone here a good understanding of the market and how long the price can stay this high? The 1996 price spike lasted only several months but there really is no way of guessing as a complete different set of factors are involved this time. > I just got an offer for $ 2.10 CAD (US$ 1.34) for a load of white honey without even bargaining hard. You seem to not be bound by sales only to your coop Allen. The largest U.S. coop members are going to come out with only average prices for their honey and unable to benifit from the run away prices. Many are ignoring sales to the coop and selling on the open market. Never underestimate the power of money. I am told that said US coop is paying top price (1.55 U.S.) because of *loyal* members jumping ship and selling coop headed honey on the US open market. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:04:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >warning to all beekeepers in the east Warwickshire area of England. >There has been a very large case of AFB in the Nuneaton and >Coventry area. A large beekeeper with many hives has multiple cases, >I have heard over a 100 colonies infected. To my friends in the UK I still say the same as I did several years ago on the IBL list. The methods you use to control AFb are the same as we used in the U.S. years ago unsuccessfully. American beekeeping almost went under before WW 2 with only a burn policy. Drifting bees and robbing will spread quickly AFB from a AFB outbreak this large in a small country with hives close to each other. A *outbreak* on the scale noted did not happen overnight. Should have been detected months ago. For what its worth. I would burn all visible infected equipment and treat all hives in the area with antibiotics. Good luck with the problem and keep us informed on the methods used in the U.K and if the problem is contained by the methods proposed by the powers that be. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:56:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: mite loads In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:15 AM 9/11/02 -0500, you wrote: >We had been treating religiously twice a year since 1995, at first with >Apistan until it lost its effectiveness here two years ago, and with >Coumaphos since. We had lots of mites in past years, but none now. I wouldn't rule out residual effect from 2 years of coumaphos. It is very strong medicine pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:20:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: small cell colony update In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >In article <001f01c254a7$091a8600$31b8193e@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards > writes >>Is this correct? If so, what is the explanation for bald brood before we >>had varroa? >> >>Peter Edwards >>beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk Further to this thread, regarding the chewing out phenomenon, today I had a chance, and a bit of time to spare, to investigate this further. An apiary of 42 colonies on the heather was being stripped today, and this involved some rearrangement of combs due to the presence of some patches of brood in the upper boxes (an early Sept. phenomenon which does not happen after another week or so). This apiary is known to have a light infestation, treated in the spring, but of course still present and growing again. Some chewing out was noticed in most colonies (which would be normal) but markedly more in around 6 of the group. I decided to investigate further and spend a couple of hours excavating both chewed and unchewed brood in 3 of these colonies. In about 25% of the cells being chewed out in the first colony there was either varroa present, or it faeces were visible on the cell roof. Overall chewing out rate was less than 1% of the total sealed brood. I then opened 25 cells of mature sealed brood. 8 of the 25 had varroa present. In the second colony probably about 1% was being chewed out. Nil varroa activity noted in any of the cells. 25 cells then excavated of mature brood and nil varroa found. In the third colony again about 1% chewed and in this case about half of the chewed cells showed evidence of varroa. As this was a higher figure I excavated 100 cells and found varroa in 42. This colony also had more varroa per cell where there was infestation. Despite this I am not too fazed by this count, as the amount of brood in total is now down to around four 'palm of the hand' sized patches and thus very concentrated into a small area. No deformed wings or undersized bees visible. However, chewing does seem to be a pattern of behaviour which has little correlation to varroa cleansing IN OUR ENVIRONMENT and with our bees. A very scanty test to be jumping to conclusions on the basis of I know, but for our circumstances it is all I can offer. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:18:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Karen and all I think the sticky board is the unreliable one. Suppose hive A drops twice as many mites as hive B. What does that mean? If the colonies are the same size, it may mean one is twice as infested as the other. But it could also be one colony has twice as many bees, so the rate is the same. If the level is high it could mean the cluster is very close to the bottom board. If the level is low, is may mean the hive is almost dead. With the ether roll you get mites per sample. You also get to look at the colony. If the number is high but the hive is otherwise strong that means one thing, if the number is low but the hive is nearly depopulated -- something else. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Uncapping knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have found that this can be accomplished with a heat gun. The kind that is held in hand like a blow drier and generally used to remove paint. Got mine at Wal-Mart for around $20. It takes a while to get the technique down but just heat the cappings enough so that they melt and pull away starting at the center. Don't heat too much or the cell walls will melt and recap the cell with melted wax. It works only if the cappings are up off the honey - that's to say that there needs to be a gap between the capping and the honey in the cell below. On traveled combs where cappings set against the honey the capping never pulls away and the cell remains sealed when the wax hardens. These I get with a capping scratcher. If your combs tend to be mostly tramped down like this then this method will probably not work for you. I have used this method for the last couple years with my 7 hive operation and I like the fact that I don't have to deal with the cappings and the bees don't have to make as much wax the next season. Billy Smart Rock, KS it seems to me that removing the cap with the least damage to the comb would allow the bees to refill the combs quickly. david ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:18:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: AFB outbreak Bob Your response is quite unbelievable! In the UK we have so little AFB that it is rare to hear of any cases. Our treatment policy, i.e. to burn infected colonies, has worked so well that it would be difficult to find anyone who would argue for change. This outbreak is so exceptional that it will no doubt be a talking point for years. My understanding is that in the US you have endemic AFB due to your treatment policies and are now producing antibiotic resistant AFB! And you feel qualified to offer us advice? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: 11 September 2002 16:04 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] AFB outbreak > > To my friends in the UK I still say the same as I did several years ago on > the IBL list. The methods you use to control AFb are the same as we used in > the U.S. years ago unsuccessfully. American beekeeping almost went under > before WW 2 with only a burn policy. > > For what its worth. I would burn all visible infected equipment and treat > all hives in the area with antibiotics. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:33:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: small colony update - bald brood. Certainly bald brood may be seen where wax moths tunnel through brood, but this is usually on a very limited scale and is not, I would suggest, what we really mean by 'bald brood'. Where wax moth is involved I would regard the cells as damaged, whereas true bald brood is seen where large areas of cells are not capped. Here in the Midlands we saw an unusual amount of bald brood in the spring this year - it was common in colonies large and small, black and yellow, so I doubt the genetic link. Was it due to the weather? This year has been very unusual, with a very early spring following an unusually mild winter - many colonies had wall to wall brood and up to 100lbs of honey by the end of April, whereas we night expect perhaps 7 frames of brood and no honey stored in supers at that time. Maybe it was the very heavy, early flow. I do remember many years ago having a four frame mating nuc with a new queen and this had three frames of completely bald brood. The nuc was on the point of starvation and was given warm syrup. Within a couple of days all of the brood had been capped. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger White" To: Sent: 07 September 2002 15:38 Subject: [BEE-L] small colony update - bald brood. Hi All, The bald brood is indeed associated with wax moth infestations - it is very common here and was present before the arrival of Varroa in 1982. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:13:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > To my friends in the UK I still say the same as I did several years ago on > the IBL list. The methods you use to control AFb are the same as we used in > the U.S. years ago unsuccessfully. American beekeeping almost went under > before WW 2 with only a burn policy. > Reply: AFB is still a comparatively rare problem in the UK, we don't yet know if there is a new strain of AFB which is more virulent but for sure any blanket treatment with anti biotic would just mask the problem and would do nothing to build resistance in the honey bee population. The burn only policy has worked well for many years I can't see the UK Gov changing policy now, which is obviously the correct decision. Regards Phil Moore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:57:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Bald Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii BEE-L'ers: I have been following this thread for some time waiting for someone to ask for a definition of "bald brood" but, since no one has, let me ask. What are youall talking about? Dan --------------------------------- Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:41:26 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Sorry to hear about AFB incident. Would be interested to know if the Min. of Agric. (not knowing what name they go under now!), as well as other responsible beekeeping bodies in UK is spreading the word to be extra vigilant regarding AFB, EFB and PMS due to the presence of Varroa. Bee colonies are under greater stress and prone to attack from a multitude of infections due to injury caused by the habits employed by this mite. AFB incidence is likely to increase from the low % of occurrence - therefore beekeepers must be vigilant. If the incidence increases, what is going to happen to the destroy and burn policy? Insurance will only continue to pay if there is a definite limit on the damage being caused - and if it is a confinable situation. With Varroa present - I suggest that this is not the case. I also suggest that if antibiotics are brought into the arena (officially that is!) - then a series of problems will be set into motion, eventually producing resistant strains of bacteria. To Allen D. in Alberta - what would your advice be in answer to this probable scenario, my accepting that it is hypothetical at the moment. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:17:34 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Purifying beeswax for candle production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Most of the > yellow cast wax was made into foundation, and the very white was saved for > the candles that were to be colored or sold white. Does this "purified" beeswax still have the same fragrance when burned as a candle? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Orozco Subject: Re: Bald Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi: the bald-brood condition is due to the attack of the lesser wax moth = Achroia Grisella, and sometimes to the greater wax moth Galleria = Mellonella too; the moth chew away the cappings of sealed brood. The = adult bees remove the rest of the cappings but don't remove the pupas = very soon so we can see their heads , generally in a line ,and if we = remove the pupa we can find the moths excrements on the pupa . Some = times the pupas die or emerge with deformed legs and wings. Rossy Castillo Orozco Queen Breeder-=20 Olmu=E9 - Chile rossybee@ctcinternet.cl=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: dan hendricks To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Bald Brood > BEE-L'ers: I have been following this thread for some time waiting = for someone to ask for a definition of "bald brood" but, since no one = has, let me ask. What are youall talking about? Dan >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! - We Remember > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, > Your response is quite unbelievable! I consider myself almost expert on the history of AFB in the U.S. before the war years and have seen the way the problem was handled by the USDA then and the way the problem was solved. The reason for my response. > In the UK we have so little AFB that it is rare to hear of any cases. When I was on the IBL list many were talking about cases of AFB. None as large as the one just talked about but fairly common. > Our treatment policy, i.e. to burn infected colonies, has worked so >well that it would be difficult to find anyone who would argue for change. Only those not being able to control AFB with burning methods would ask for a change. > My understanding is that in the US you have endemic AFB due to your treatment policies and are now producing antibiotic resistant AFB! We have got a new antibiotic being registered which gives 100% AFB control. If we get the milege out of the new antibiotic we did with terramycin then should be good for around 60 years. > And you feel qualified to offer us advice? I suspect I have seen more AFB than most beekeepers as I never used terramycin except when needed. At least the advice is free. Taking things a step further what do you think your government would propose *if* the problem gets out of hand? Surely not antibiotics? I always get a kick out of beekeepers which say they would never put a chemical strip in their hives. Half their hives die from varroa and out come the strips. Same scenario with AFB. When burning does not solve the problem out come the antibiotics. Burning may control the problem for you and I hope it does. Burning has solved AFb when caught early and few hives have been involved for me. 100 plus hives infected with AFb is a large outbreak even in the U.S. I would also guess the AFB has been in those hives for a couple years unnoticed. Burn away but keep the antibiotics close by. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:25:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Bald Brood In-Reply-To: <20020911205709.77168.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > ask. What are youall talking about? Dan One can see this phenomena here: http://www.beesource.com/mitechew/index.htm -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting piece in the September issue of the American Bee Journal on page 628 concerning the Sioux Honey Association. The Sioux Honey assn. is the largest cooperative in the U.S. made up of U.S. beekeepers. "Part of the *new* cooperative agreement between the Sioux Honey Assn. and the Argentine cooperative FACAP *includes* the exportation of *Argentine* honey, bottled and labeled under the Sioux honey brand. The piece also says that it is possible that Sioux honey may import bulk honey from FACAP and *other* South American cooperatives located in Chile and Uruguay into the U.S.." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Part of the *new* cooperative agreement between the Sioux Honey Assn. and the Argentine cooperative FACAP *includes* the exportation of *Argentine* honey, bottled and labeled under the Sioux honey brand..." So, what does one make of this? Sioux Bee, which heretofore has been a domestic coop (is that correct?), has opened the coop to imports. Does this set a precedent? Is this decision driven by the bottom line (dollars) or is it a supply/demand issue (coop members aren't able to produce enough to meet Sioux Bee's needs)? If the former and I were a coop member, I think I'd be a bit POed. Obviously, I don't have a full appreciation for how the coops run and would appreciate a lesson. Aaron Morris - thinking small potatoes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP In-Reply-To: <000701c25a60$dbb18640$2cac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Bob Harrison wrote: B"Part of the *new* cooperative agreement between the Sioux Honey Assn. and the Argentine cooperative FACAP *includes* the exportation of *Argentine* honey, bottled and labeled under the Sioux honey brand. The piece also says that it is possible that Sioux honey may import bulk honey from FACAP and *other* South American cooperatives located in Chile and Uruguay into the U.S.." Reply: I thought that by being a cooperative as Sioux Honey Assn is that they cannot buy and use honey in excess of 49% of what it's members can produce from outside sources of any kind. How does this apply to Sioux now in volumes they will be dealing with for packing, not besides the point I don't feel they should be allowed to purchase from either China nor Argentina anyway, due to past anti-dumping actions taken. Funny our biggest industry cooperative dealing with honey dumpers. Very pro anti-American packing IMPOV. Why isn't there a law saying that American cooperatives must deal in American Honey or aren't they truly an American cooperative anymore as far as packing is concerned? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:06:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Purifying beeswax for candle production Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:17 PM 9/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >Most of the > > yellow cast wax was made into foundation, and the very white was saved for > > the candles that were to be colored or sold white. > >Does this "purified" beeswax still have the same fragrance when burned as >a candle? Yes. The fragrance is retained when beeswax is filtered by the method I described. Wax has a natural fragrance which is influenced by the nectar that is used by the bees to produce it. It also absorbs fragrances from the propolis. Capping wax tends to be the lightest and least affected by propolis, while wax from old combs tends to be dark and highly aromatic. The only wax I saw that was wrecked was wax from rendered hives and frames which had been treated with lye. This wax was almost gray and very gummy. By the way, even the lightest filtered wax has a light yellow cast. The color is more like ivory. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:19:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "S. Laveault" Subject: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been subscribed to this list for about 6 weeks now, and I've = learned quite a bit about beekeeping after you're already established. = Thank you all for sharing your opinions/expertise! My husband will be retiring from the military in a little less than 3 = years, and he wants to start his own beekeeping operation. Not huge, but = enough to supplement a pension. So far, we have nothing but a bungalow = on a town lot, a book, "1st Steps to "Beekeeping" and some internet = references. We will be looking to move to a country lot in 2 summers = from now. I like to learn from other people's experiences, good and = bad.... so is there anything, if you were to go back and do it all = again, that you definitely would do the same, or something you would = never do again? Anything you wish you could change? I'm talking anything = from property, to building, to equipment.. and anything else associated = with a start-up. I'm also curious, is it possible to keep an observation hive in a town = lot... or is that too dangerous? Please excuse my almost complete lack of knowledge, and thanks in = advance for your help.... :) Sandi=20 (from Northern Alberta, if that matters for anything!) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:22:16 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sandi, Don't buy colonies, hives, combs or other wooden ware that you know or suspect has been in contact with AFB! Get your Provincial Apiarist to vet and give a history on any colonies oR outfit that you are interested in - evenso, this will not guarantee anything. Try and start with clean, interchangeable material. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:37:11 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So a major cooperative widens its source of honey - and beekeepers will complain about disloyalty! Er - what about the beekeepers who shelter under coop price protection during bad times and then desert when the price of honey is riding a high. Appears to me, that the situation begs certain questions to be asked and answered - on both sides. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: AFB outbreak Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Everyone, Peter makes a point that varroa stress will lead to greater problems with AFB. There is another issue here with varroa namely the impact on the brood from the mites. You can get symptoms very similar to AFB in colonies that don't have AFB infection. It looks like AFB at first look but not quite right if you are experenced with AFB diagnosis. One result is colonies being thought to have AFB when they actually don't. Of course this could impact the insurance situation you have with hive destruction for control as Peter points out. How long can you go on with more colonies impacted than you have in the past? Are all field AFB finds confirmed in the lab before hive destruction? What are the varroa levels in the infected outfit? When the symptoms are due to varroa treatment of the mites results in healthy brood very quickly without any other treatment or hive destruction. A point from this side of the pond. When colonies are destroyed for disease control only a few states have any kind of reembursement in place. In most cases the cost is to the beekeeper which of course makes a major difference in how beekeepers view such disease control activities. Most will destroy visabily infected combs and treat with antibiotic because it is considerably less expensive in the long run than waiting until more colonies show the infection and burning them. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:56:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Filtering beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add the unprocessed wax directly to the water. The melted wax floats on the water. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:00:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ADFiala Subject: Destruction of comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week, while combining hives, and needing to get some supers cleaned out quickly, I set a super full of capped honey and nectar in my garden, about 50 feet from 5 hives. I set the super on end in an upturned outer cover and left it for three days until activity ceased. When I brought it in, the outer cover was full of wax chips and dust, and 8 of the 10 frames had had all the honey comb areas eaten away, and all the former brood-comb remained (empty). This is just the opposite of what wax moth would do. The (former) honey comb was gone, just the embedded wires remaining. There were no marks on the wooden ware frames or super. I showed these frames to three EAS master beekeepers who were at a loss to explain what did it. One thought perhaps the bees did it; one suggested mice. All said "No" to yellowjackets. Any other guesses, or explanation based on experience? Alan in northern Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:28:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: AFB outbreak In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Blane White writes >Are all field >AFB finds confirmed in the lab before hive destruction? Yes - it was a UK outbreak that was mentioned. All samples are tested in the Central Science Laboratory and confirmation goes to the Bee Officer involved and the beekeeper. Only AFB and EFB are ever reported whatever else is detected. Destruction follows a.s.a.p. after confirmation of AFB. There is some discretion when EFB is found, depending on colony strength, % comb affected and time of year. >When colonies are destroyed for >disease control only a few states have any kind of reembursement in >place. In the UK we have a voluntary insurance scheme. I gather that costs exceed income at the moment and the scheme may fold. AFB is very rare in my part of the UK, though there has been a couple of recent detected occurrences. EFB is much more common by virtue of our intermittent flows. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:57:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check in your area to see if they have a local beekeepers club, if so join the club and try to take beginners class. My suggestion after three years (I do it as a hobby) start slow. Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:07:20 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sandi: There are lots of beekeepers in Northern Alberta. Possibly the Canadian Honey Council can point you to some, also there are one or two on this list. Eunice (in PEI) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Jeffrey A. Holbrook" Subject: Re: Purifying beeswax for candle production In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, You let the cat out of the bag. :-) I make maple syrup and have been using maple syrup filters to "purify" beeswax for years. I thought everybody new about it. Really. I do not use diatomaceous earth as I like to have my wax looking like beeswax. If it was white, I imagine that I'd have trouble selling it as beeswax. Making smokeless and unless you jiggle them, dripless candles in Upstate NY And some honey too! Jeff Holbrook Corning, NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Micro photograph of a honeybee stinger Comments: To: BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU|Informed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit May I purchase, have, or be pointed to a closeup photograph of a honeybee stinger, with barbs and all. I have used an electron scanning microscope repeatedly but have not yet captured a nice picture of the stinger, up close. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I have 80 spectacular photos of bees, beekeepers, flowers, harvesting, etc and would trade photos with someone. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:35:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Micro photograph of a honeybee stinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may wish to look at the following http://www.pbrc.hawaii.edu/bemf/microangela/bsting.htm http://www.gobeekeeping.com/is_it_a_honey_bee.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:47:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Travels in the Genetically Modified Zone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/WINTRA.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:16:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Destruction of comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alan: I have often seen mouse damage similar to that which you have described. This can be avoided by putting a queen excluder on a bottom board, putting the super with the frames above that and a regular cover on that. The bees can get in through the excluder but the mice cannot. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:22:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr In-Reply-To: <3D80D0C6.BB3602B4@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Dillion wrote: So a major cooperative widens its source of honey - and beekeepers will complain about disloyalty! Er - what about the beekeepers who shelter under coop price protection during bad times and then desert when the price of honey is riding a high. Appears to me, that the situation begs certain questions to be asked and answered - on both sides. Reply: Yes probably concerning questions for both sides. Also since federal law sets the parameters for the cooperative and the 49/51 Split on honey to be a US cooperative and giving certain benefits as such, the big question is then has US Law been circumvented by maybe becoming an international packer with a different packing ration off American Soil and can Sioux Honey still be called technically a US Cooperative or just another packer? Then concerning pricing paid to beekeepers. You'd think and industry cooperative would follow the USmarket better with pricing if owned and operated by USbeekeepers and officers voted into office as such. Yes in bad times they seem to help, but then in good times, why isn't more passed onto the coop members instead of other areas? Or aren't the coopmembers really in charge anymore? Interesting reading about this overseas packing going on. Big question is: If packed overseas and carrying Sioux honey brand, where will this honey end up for end user usage? Also, How will consumers be able to tell the difference from American coop members honey then? for a difference between produced in USA vs foreign? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby (thinking aloud since grandpa and Dad were Sioux members, though we went another route!) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:51:34 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: >> "Part of the *new* cooperative agreement between the Sioux Honey Assn. and >> the Argentine cooperative FACAP *includes* the exportation of *Argentine* >> honey, bottled and labeled under the Sioux honey brand. ...and Aaron Morris said: > Is this decision driven by the bottom line (dollars) or is it a supply/demand issue > (coop members aren't able to produce enough to meet Sioux Bee's needs)? > If the former and I were a coop member, I think I'd be a bit POed. Given views like Aaron's, perhaps Sioux Bee needs to sign an agreement with FACAP in Florida quick! The "Florida Advisory Committee on Arson Prevention" http://www.facap.org :) Seriously, this was a very well-timed announcement, and a very smooth move. Vote the people who did this a raise, Sioux Bee members - they earned it. The net effect is that Sioux Bee may now suddenly be the largest purchaser/packer of Argentine honey, and will no longer be undercut by those who traditionally traded in Argentine honey. They are sure to buy up as much Argentine honey as they can, even if they must stockpile it. This, combined with the ban of Chinese honey, will make a rather large vacuum, leaving a number of honey importer/packers with one less major source of supply. If the Chinese situation remains unchanged, some packers could be put in the position of not being able to supply long-standing customers, and Sioux Bee will be sure to be interviewing now for someone to answer the phones on "3rd shift". It also allows Sioux Bee to process and bottle honey year-round, which means that their capital equipment can be amortized over the same period, but produce many more pounds of honey during the productive lifespan of the equipment. (Don't laugh, this is serious money for any business with a "plant".) Its nothing but a another game of Monopoly, but played with real money, real buildings, and a game board as big as the planet. Since Sioux Bee is a co-op, the members profit on both sides of the deal. Hey! - If Sioux Bee cuts a deal with the Alberta Honey Producers, that would make THREE properties in the same hemisphere, entitling the combined groups to place a hotel on the board. :) The Sherman Antitrust Act, the Clayton Act, the Capper-Volstead Act, and the NAFTA agreement make very informative reading for the megalomaniac in training. It is amazing what co-ops are allowed to do. I sure hope that someone has enough of a sense of humor to hand out eye patches and Jolly Roger flags to all Sioux Bee members at their next meeting. All together now.... "Arrrrr! Arrrrgentina!" jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:57:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: AFB outbreak In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-365E1E7D; boundary="=======480B45EF=======" --=======480B45EF======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-365E1E7D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 00:28 13/09/2002 +0100, you wrote: >In the UK we have a voluntary insurance scheme. I gather that costs >exceed income at the moment and the scheme may fold. AFB is very rare in >my part of the UK, though there has been a couple of recent detected >occurrences. EFB is much more common by virtue of our intermittent >flows. > >-- >James Kilty Hi The data from the Bee Disease Insurance Co show that there has been a progressive increase in the number of EFB claims per insured colony in the UK over recent years. The incidence of AFB claims per insured colony has been erratic about what appears to be a constant level over the same period Regards Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======480B45EF======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-365E1E7D Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002 --=======480B45EF=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:13:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Sioux Bee and Argentina Honey I am a little surprised that the 'news' about Sioux Bee and the Argentina coop has received so much attention, as this ground was extensively covered on this list about 3 years ago. At some point Sioux Bee decided that they were going to lose significant market share if they did not join the crowd and buy cheap honey from Argentina and China to blend with their more expensive honey from the US. Under our crazy labeling regulations they then changed their label to read (approximately) 'this honey may be from US, Canadian, Argentina or Chinese sources'. Their logic was that they best served their members by maintaining or increasing market share, and the only way they could do that was to insure that their costs of honey were not higher than those of their competitors. I don't have to tell you that this led to producer/packers in Buffalo New York losing market share to Sioux Honey (with their all-american image)...but on the other hand for several years the members of Sioux Bee received 20%+ more for their honey than if they had to sell it on the open market to those such as Dutch Gold. All of this was extensively discussed on this list. Much of the material I obtained from a Board member of Sioux Bee. It would appear that the only thing that has happened 'now' is that Sioux Bee has taken steps to assure themselves of a source of inexpensive honey for the future. If China is unable to straighten out their problems, or divert enough of their honey to Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines, etc. for re-shipment, Sioux Bee will still have a source of inexpensive honey to 'blend'. My reading is that Sioux Bee would like our crazy labeling regulations to be changed so that they could have two 'brands'. One All-American that they could sell for a 'premium' price, and another labeled as from 'foreign' sources. However, the major food companies are totally against this, as are the grocery chains, etc. Until it happens, Sioux Bee is going to protect their market share by joining the crowd. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:20:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwin Hoebrechts Subject: Oxalic acid In-Reply-To: <000e01c254bc$3181cc10$f8b8efd4@erwin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Can someone fill me in on the mechanism which makes Oxalic acid lethal to mites? (Providing it is already discovered) Erwin - Belgium ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Oxalic acid It's action seems to burn the mites. Here's something that helps explain it http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/mierezuur.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:44:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Sioux Bee and Argentina Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Lloyd wrote: Under our crazy labeling regulations they then changed their label to read (approximately) 'this honey may be from US, Canadian, Argentina or Chinese sources'. Reply: If they are a US Coop and were restricted to a 49-51 ratio for foreign to US Honey of members under federal law, then the next question would be: Is this information going on the labels so we can be sure they are using no more then 49% foreign in their honey, and why can not then this blending be made mandatory in ratio also, and so stated on the labels, so American producers are the major suppliers? Even if by a token for blended honeys! I see nothing from them high grading a totally American product. I also see nothing packers from truthfully giving their packing ratios for blending on lables so we know what we are eating and from where. What ever happened to truth in labeling or isn'th there any? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: mite levels, 2002 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Belief doesn't rely on any facts, however. Science and research does. Dr. Delaplane's work on economic thresholds and IPM treatments (summaries at: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Research/archives.htm), presented last year (I have the handouts from his talk somewhere, but perhaps not this exact paper) looked at both treatment levels and methods of detecting the levels. Effects of delayed acaricide treatment in honey bee colonies parasitized by Varroa jacobsoni and a late-season treatment threshold for the south-eastern USA. Delaplane, K.S. & W.M. Hood. 1997. Journal of Apicultural Research 36(3/4): 125-132 "Our data suggest that late-season acaricide treatments in first-year colonies in the south-eastern USA piedmont are justified at colony mite populations of 3172 ? 324, 300-bee ether roll mite levels of 15 ? 1.4, and overnight adhesive bottom board insert mite levels of 117 ? 15 in colonies with 24 808 ? 2245 bees and 1825 ? 327 cm2 sealed brood; these conditions occurred in mid-August.... Bottom board inserts were more reliable predictors of colony mite populations compared to the ether roll method." yes, colony strength does influence mite drop. But once mite drop reaches a certain total number of mites, colony damage or collapse is around the corner. And well under the numbers some are reporting on the IBnewlist (with 3800 mite drop in 2 days and more later on ... well over the level at which economic damage has been done). -----Original Message----- From: Peter Borst I think the sticky board is the unreliable one. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Transgenic Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Excerpts from: >Transgenic Poultry and Insects: Invited Response >Nils Uddenberg, Associate Professor >Institute for Futures Studies, Sweden > >Now some comments on insects. Here, the ethical issues are quite >different. Insects probably are not sentient beings in the same way >as poultry. Even if bees are popular insects, few people feel >empathy with them as they do with poultry. Many insects are even >considered disgusting and ugly. You can't look deep into their eyes. >Surely, both ethical issues and public reactions will be very >different. > >My personal belief is that bees resistant to pesticides will be met >with the same skepticism as >herbicide-resistant crops. Many people reject the use of various >chemicals used in agriculture. These people will certainly be >reluctant to accept the use of pesticide-resistant bees for >pollination. I am not quite sure their reaction is rational ( I know >too little about what could be gained by using such bees). >Insecticides are used anyway and it is thus not a question of >spraying or not spraying, but of what is sprayed and why. However, I >am quite sure that it will be up to the producers to convince the >general public of the advantages connected with using for instance >genetically manipulated bees in the way suggested by Dr. Kimura. > >Transgenic birds and transgenic insects are new fields of research. >Personally, I feel a bit uneasy that these technologies will be >developed without the general public being informed. ... Researchers >and gene technologists must take time not only to inform general >people but also to listen to the reactions from the public. It is a >question of communication, not instruction or information. It is >very important that such a dialogue is established. Gene technology >is too powerful a tool to be developed without the general public >having opportunities to observe what is going on. Comment: Monsanto and others have touted genetic engineering as a way to *reduce pesticide use*. With products like "BT Corn", this might be true. But with others, like "RoundUp-Ready Soybeans", or "Pesticide-Ready Honey Bees", we are headed in precisely the opposite direction. Here our commentator says: "It is very important that such a dialogue is established." That is what I have tried to do. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Sioux Honey members are for the most part honest hardworking beekeepers. In the other corner we have got a few packers which have made huge profits on Argentine honey (or did). James wrote: > Seriously, this was a very well-timed announcement, and a very smooth move. Vote the people who did this a raise, Sioux Bee members - they earned it. Am I looking at the situation wrong but did not the American Beekeepers spend hard earned dollars to put a tarriff on Argentine honey? Is not the honest hardworking members of Sioux Bee going to pay most (if not all ) of the tarrif over the length of the tarriff? Argentine beekeepers are tired of being robbed of their honey at low prices. Prices have risen sharply over the last few years in Argentina. Several packers were ready to look other places before the tarriff was put in place. Argentina honey is bringing an average of .57 a lb. FOB Argentina today (Sept. ABJ pg. 627). Quite a bit of difference from the middle .30 U.S. packers have paid in the past. Hmmm. James wrote: > The net effect is that Sioux Bee may now suddenly be the largest purchaser/packer of Argentine honey, and will no longer be undercut by those who traditionally traded in Argentine honey. I agree completely but the world honey market is a large place and those packers which have been a thorn in American beekeepers side are not going away only switching sources. > They are sure to buy up as much Argentine honey as they can, even if >they must stockpile it. The largest stockpile of dark bakery grade honey in the world. Only valuable if you have got grade A white honey to blend with the Argentine only. Is this really a wise move? The packers which first imported Argentine honey enjoyed the *low price advantage* on store shelves. I do not believe Sioux Bee will be able to do the same with todays mindset of the Argentine beekeepers. The days of trading *beads for honey* are over. Argentine beekeepers are united and very aware of the price they can get for their honey crop. I am only a "small potatoes" type of guy to use a phrase from Aaron but I try to keep up on what a few of my friends on both sides of the issue are up to. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Beekeeping Beginner In-Reply-To: <001b01c25a6f$bc5bd5c0$dcf0de42@ab.hsia.telus.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If i had to start again, I'd use all mediums (no deep or shallow). This gives you only one size of equipment. More efficient than shallows, not nearly as heavy as deeps. And I would use wooden frames with plastic foundation, they hold up better and are much easier to install than wax, and are more repairable than all plastic frames, etc. Find a local beekeeper and see if you can help him a day in each season (spring, summer, harvesting, fall, wintering, etc.) Find the nearest beekeeping organization, they can be of invaluable help. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:20:35 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Sioux Bee and Argentina Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear said: > Under our crazy labeling regulations they then changed their label to read > (approximately) 'this honey may be from US, Canadian, Argentina or Chinese > sources'. What prevents Sioux Bee from running 100% US honey on alternate Thursdays, bottling it, and using labels that say "This honey is entirely from US sources" on those bottles? I can't imagine how this would be inaccurate, or in violation of any regulation. > My reading is that Sioux Bee would like our crazy labeling regulations to be > changed so that they could have two 'brands'. One All-American that they > could sell for a 'premium' price, and another labeled as from 'foreign' > sources. However, the major food companies are totally against this, as are > the grocery chains, etc. Until it happens, Sioux Bee is going to protect > their market share by joining the crowd. Please explain why the labeling regs prevent anyone from telling the truth about the "country of origin" of their honey. I don't get it. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Labling with country of origin Jim, and probably others, wonder why S. Bee can't just pack US source honey, call it 'Made in the USA' and sell as is. Sure, they can do that...and lose market share and hurt their producers. They would have to charge more than if they blended with foreign stuff (or lose money on it and be in the same position relative to their producers), and no one would buy it because their prices were higher. Consumers 'don't get it' because the foreign stuff doesn't have to be labeled as such. As long as it contains 1% (or perhaps less) of US honey it can be labeled as 'honey from USA, Canada and Argentina' (an actual quote from a label on my desk). Every study that has been made on food products show that consumers have a very high preference for foods produced in the USA, but the labels as they are do not tell consumers what they need to know concerning the % of foreign content for honey (or grapes, raspberries, strawberries, etc.). Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:30:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I have been a member of Sioux Honey but that was quite awhile ago. It was my understanding that Sioux honey was a major importer of honey. When domestic honey prices were extremely low Sioux used the price differential between domestic and imported honey to give a better return to their members. This appears to be another step in that same direction. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:13:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sandi, you asked about an observation hive. One can be kept anywhere but you cannot maintain it without a full sized hive nearby. The OH has one queen in one or two frames where normally a queen has access to 10 to 20 frames. An OH is not the right place to begin beekeeping! Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLOYDSPEAR wrote: As long as it contains 1% (or perhaps less) of US honey it can be labeled as 'honey from USA, Canada and Argentina' (an actual quote from a label on my desk). And all this in small print. But, in large print, on another part of the label...on jars containing foriegn honey.... ..."U.S.D.A GRADE A"....a bit misleading to the uninformed, wouldn't you say? Mike > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:21:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP In-Reply-To: <20020913.150040.-240229.0.BWrangler@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Dennis wrote: It was my understanding that Sioux honey was a major importer of honey. When domestic honey prices were extremely low Sioux used the price differential between domestic and imported honey to give a better return to their members. This appears to be another step in that same direction. Reply: Question: Now that Sioux Honey is linked up with Argentina and honey prices are now reversed and no longer extremely low for domestic honey how do you perceive Sioux using the price differential this time to give a better return to members? To pull it down to help Argentina since we are now higher? Also, If and should coumaphos play out for example, and bees start to crash and the volume of domestic honey deminish. And presumedly there is a 49% to 51 % ratio for the cooperative to maintin, does this mean that Sioux will be buying less Argentina honey in the future or will they stop being a cooperative and just become and international packer of some sizing? What are the possibilities for this? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:43:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward D Heinlein Subject: Re: Destruction of comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:00:59 -0400 ADFiala writes: When I > brought > it in, the outer cover was full of wax chips and dust, and 8 of the > 10 > frames had had all the honey comb areas eaten away, and all the > former > brood-comb remained (empty). Your description sounds like what bees in my parts do when they rob out a super. They are not gentle or kind to the comb or to anything in the vicinity. They really chew the comb up to get to the cell's contents. Ed Heinlein Helena, MT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:54:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward D Heinlein Subject: Re: Beekeeping Beginner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:19:06 -0600 "S. Laveault" writes: My husband will be retiring and he wants to start his own beekeeping operation. Not > huge, but enough to supplement a pension. So far, we have nothing > but a bungalow on a town lot, a book, "1st Steps to "Beekeeping" and > some internet references. Others may disagree with me, but if your main squeeze hasn't EVER kept bees before, he may wish to consider working for a commercial operator for a summer (at least). The knowledge he would gain would be invaluable, and he may even decide on other means to supplement his pension. I love working my bees but it is incredibly hot, hard work. Also, even if a person can successfully manage a few hives doesn't mean he/she can do the same with 2x, 3x, 4x.....etc. as many hives. Just some food for thought.......... > I'm also curious, is it possible to keep an observation hive in a > town lot... or is that too dangerous? I think it depends on where the hive entrance is. I live in a city and have an OH that exits on the second floor, well above any passers by. Ed Heinlein Helena, MT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:01:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin In-Reply-To: <3D8282EA.5E1991DF@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <3D8282EA.5E1991DF@together.net>, michael palmer writes >And all this in small print. But, in large print, on another part of the >label...on jars containing foriegn honey.... >..."U.S.D.A GRADE A"....a bit misleading to the uninformed, wouldn't you say? Why misleading? It is plainly a (fairly bland) quality statement and not a country of origin statement. Unless of course you think US honey is automatically superior to all others and only it should qualify as a 'Grade A' product. Not a point of view to gain many friends outside the US, nearly all of them at least as proud of their product as you are. However, I would have some sympathy with your position regarding Chinese product, which I have always found to be of unattractive taste and smell, and likely to damage honey sales rather then boost them, despite the low price. FWIW, a close friend in the trade tells me that they are meeting sharp competition for Argentine honey in bulk at this time from buyers from North America. It is rumoured to be all going to Canada to circumvent the US tarriffs, where it is blended and then entering as Canadian. I have no firm evidence to support this but my source is well informed and very reliable. Sounds a bit like the way it was reported that Chinese was getting round their tarriffs problem a year or two back, by going into Canada, being blended, and then entering as Canadian (although I think Mexican was being used as a cover as well). Much growling was done then by US based posters blaming the Canadians for doing it, but it could not be done without the conivance of (and possibly even at the instigation of) the US client as it is really quite impossible to see how, unless at really small proportions, you could hide Chinese honey in Canadian. Anyone who knows both kinds would detect the Chinese or blended product instantly. Seems the same might now be happening for Argentine honey, but this will be a lot less easy to detect as the quality of their honey is actually pretty good and will be easier to hide. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:01:33 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby said: > And presumedly there is a 49% to 51 % ratio for > the cooperative to maintin, does this mean that Sioux will > be buying less Argentina honey in the future or will they > stop being a cooperative and just become and international > packer of some sizing? What are the possibilities for this? The "49% to 51% ratio" is a part of Capper-Volstead, but my understanding is that this clause may not restrict the actions of Sioux Honey in regard to ratios of honey processed, packed, and sold in the least. What the act says is written in plain English: "The association shall not deal in the products of nonmembers to an amount greater in value than such as are handled by it for members." But Sioux Honey is a valid producer co-op, and so is FACAP. In 1962, the US Supreme Court ruled in "Sunkist v. Winckler & Smith" that two or more cooperatives may join forces, acting as one larger co-op, and still have Capper-Volstead protection. Under NAFTA, nationality gets blurred in regard to treatment of entities located in each of the nations who "sign up". So, membership in FACAP may now be equivalent to membership in Sioux Honey! The dead give-away would be if the relationship was described to the USDA (who has some regulatory authority over cop-ops) as a "federation" or "marketing agency in common". Interesting, eh? I told you it was a smooth move. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:09:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: AFB outbreak In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed James Kilty wrote (concerning foulbrood in UK): Destruction follows a.s.a.p. after confirmation of >AFB. There is some discretion when EFB is found, depending on colony >strength, % comb affected and time of year. Please elaborate James on criteria for EFB comb destruction. I raised the question of dealing with EFB a little a year ago on this list ( thread had subject label AFB/EFB I believe). There were interesting comments from around the world, but it struck me that EFB is not as well understood as AFB and comb destruction was rarely mentioned, which is the reason for my asking for your elaboration. Without searching the archives, here is my recollection of some things said in the discussion: - EFB is primarily a disease of stress and environmental causes (you must recognize that James, as you remark): >. EFB is much more common by virtue of our intermittent flows. - EFB is not a spore forming bacteria. I would still like confirmation of this, and it leads one to the question of how long the bacteria itself remains infective. This is a simple question, it should have a simple, experimentally verified answer. It is also a question of importance to the idea of comb destruction, and to the beekeeper if he wants to decide how long to remove frames from active duty before reintroducing them. Despite raising this question twice in the previous discussion I received no answer to it that satisfied me. - I believe there were two contributions, one from South Africa, and one from Australia saying that most beekeepers did not bother with antibiotics any more, and considered the treatment to be requeening and moving the hives to better forage. -A New Zealander (Peter Bray, I think) compared it to half moon disease. -A commercial beekeeper in the US said he had never seen anything make a whole operation collapse as quickly as EFB. -Someone said that antibiotics were more effective as a preventative than a treatment. From my own experiences, I would say 1. The last comment is accurate. 2. So is the second last (one operation here in PEI lost half its 500 hives this summer and many were packages with young vigorous queens. Packages from the same pallet in my operation are averaging over 100 lb. of honey with little loss, so management can affect the progress of the disease. 3. The disease certainly does seem to be infective and does spread in the apiary so comb removal is likely indicated. Wish I knew about destruction. 4. Here is PEI the disease is almost always accompanied by severe chalkbrood. The hives depopulate quickly. I visit yards about every three weeks and in that of space of time a hive can go from looking like it needs supers to a hive with a queen, a few hundred bees and many frames of abandoned brood some with the characteristic twisted, striated dried EFB remains, but usually much more chalkbrood. This can even happen during a flow, and the deadouts may not be robbed out and could have considerable stores. 5. Requeening, like antibiotics, is most effective before the disease gets going. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:47:53 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear said: > Consumers 'don't get it' because the foreign stuff doesn't have to be labeled > as such. As long as it contains 1% (or perhaps less) of US honey it > can be labeled as 'honey from USA, Canada and Argentina' (an actual quote > from a label on my desk). But if not for the "label law", those who blend honey would not reveal country of origin at all. How then is the law not a "good thing"? Perhaps the minimum print size is too small. I'd agree, but what do we want? Would everyone prefer a requirement that such bottles be required to display a large skull and crossbones? Get real. Phrases like "foreign stuff", when applied to honey from places like Canada and Argentina, say nothing about the relative quality of the honey, but say volumes about how easy it is for the voice of agrarianism to slide into first into nationalism, then to protectionism, and then into the cesspool of shrill jingoism. This is not only poor manners towards people that bear you no ill will, it is a sign that one has run out of marketing ideas. Worse yet, If we don't speak with care, someone will use the phrase "Axis Of Honey", and before you can say "John Ashcroft", Apache helicopter gunships will be dropping anti-personnel mines on the fields of Alberta, Canada! :) > Every study that has been made on food products show that consumers > have a very high preference for foods produced in the USA, Wow, do even Canadian consumers prefer USA honey? If so, I have been ignoring a valuable market of known gourmets, gourmands, and "food snobs" in one of my favorite vacation spots! Please forward my mail to the Chateau Frontenac in Montreal! If you want to look me up, I will be the third vendor from the left at the Atwater Market along the Lachine Canal, and yes, we DO take American Express. :) Seriously, the actual issue at hand is "local produce", but will anyone willing to pay a premium for food produced locally? If so, what's your problem? One one speaks of produce in general, "Local" is an effective synonym for "fresh". Signs at farmer's markets saying "Fresh Honey" are common. While the term is laughably meaningless, it is an example of very smart marketing. Lloyd, do you participate in the "Pride Of New York" agricultural promotion? (Here in Virginia, we have "Virginia's Finest".) These programs clearly define your honey as "very local", have minimal requirements, and allow you to use a recognizable logo. If one is not doing at least this much, can one really complain about "competition" with honey blended from hither and yon? > but the labels as they are do not tell consumers what they need to know > concerning the % of foreign content for honey This presumes that "foreign" implies "inferior" in some consistent and tangible way. Does it? Might you be willing to put your money and your taste buds where your mouth is in a blind taste test of "foreign stuff" versus honey from the USA? I'll lay out unlabeled bottles from Canada, USA, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil. I pay you $50 for each you identify correctly, and you pay me $25 for each you don't. Just like "Five Card Stud", but with honey. Note that I gave you 2:1 odds. You gonna raise, call, or fold? Now that we have dispensed with the fuzzy thinking, let's focus on the real issue - blending of less-than-excellent honey with excellent honey, regardless of where each came from. People willingly pay much more for single-malt whiskey than they do for blended whiskey. There is no price competition between the two. There is just as much difference in the taste of a blended honey and a varietal honey as there is between a blended whiskey and a single-malt. The difference is that the makers of single-malts make a point of explaining the difference. So, once we get past the emotional baggage and imperialism wrapped up the flag of patriotism, the tangible issues for consumers are: 1) The actual product difference is not "country of origin" as much as it is blended honey versus unblended. 2) The blended products tend to be more professionally packaged than the local honey. To be honest, much local honey looks as casually packaged as moonshine, and therefore, seems just as dangerous. 3) Blended honeys have brightly-colored labels, clear graphics, and so on. Labels for local honey just don't compare. Many overprinted labels have "muddy" images and black text, and I have seen custom labels that made me wonder if any beekeeper was capable of even picking a tie that did not clash with his shirt. 4) But what is the competition for "blended" honey? Must it be varietal honey? But if your honey is not varietal, then what is it? What is the term that one can promote to differentiate one's product from the blended stuff? "Unblended"? "Raw"? "Unmixed"? "Unprocessed"? "Boutique"? Only if we all pick a term and stick with it can we expect consumers to perceive a tangible difference. Know your competition! It is not a country, it is not a flag, it is not a person. It is nothing more than a big stainless-steel mixing tank. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:54:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/09/02 05:03:32 GMT Daylight Time, Mike Rowbottom writes: << The data from the Bee Disease Insurance Co show that there has been a progressive increase in the number of EFB claims per insured colony in the UK over recent years. >> Mike, do you happen to know whether there is any correlation between the increase in recent years with the antibiotic treatment policy of recent years? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:11:01 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Labeling with country of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Know your competition! It is not a country, it is not a flag, it is not a person. It is nothing more than a big stainless-steel mixing tank. Taken from Jim Fischer's mail - sums up some of my thoughts. Several months back when individuals over here in France were discussing the proposals that were being put foreword for the ECU. Honey Directive (and how it was going to be intertwined with the Codex a.) - labeling was a difficult point to clear. What beekeepers usually wish to see is not what Packers want on the final product. WHY - because what is in the pot and what the consumer actually presumes is usually not often the same. There is a legal game being played, with the law/directive being set out in "fudged language". Effectively, during the discussions dealing with Codex a. and the ECU. Directive - much pressure was brought to bear, to ensure that the consumer was to get a clear indication what he/she was buying. This pressure had its origin mainly from the producer countries. For many diverse reasons, each point was dismantled usually by the Packers (major importing countries). The power base (representatives from the dominantly importing countries) eventually placed the process of getting a new Codex in jeopardy by presenting that if the packers did not get their way, then they would veto the whole process - leaving the industry with the possibility of gaining nothing. Even the producing countries realised that this would be a disastrous situation and capitulated. Summary: This problem is not one of beekeeper from different countries being set against each other. It is a profound gap between producers and the conditioners/packers - who view the whole process of labeling from a purely economic standpoint. It will only be rectified by imposition from outside: Gov't,UN, OE etc. They have the theoretical power to clarify - but have they the will. Useful reading may be had from: Apiservices - Honey quality and International Regulatory Standards. http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/honey_quality.htm Please remember - beekeepers from different countries are proud of what they produce, and if it is of proper quality deserves to be sold wherever. At what price - that is a different point to be raised and discussed. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:56:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I'm a bit of an outsider here, so I have to be careful, but it seems to me that the China problem and the Argentine levy have put such pressure on US honey prices that would be a real danger of wrecking the whole system of production, packaging and distribution that has grown up over the years and also losing the dedicated honey market in the process, if not for some imported honey being able to reach the US market. Price competition from centralised economies and/or semi-feudal societies that do not share the US standards or cost environment is what has been destroying the US bee industry. The problem is not imported honey as such, but rather imported honey sold too cheap for all but a few US producers to compete. The recent sudden interruption in supply -- for two simultaneous coincidental and unrelated reasons -- is a highly artificial and unsustainable situation. It is a transient condition that puts huge stress on the whole honey production and distribution system in North America. It is very important to recognise that without some outside supply of honey at some price, there simply would not be enough honey to supply traditional US demand. Many habitual buyers would have to do without honey, and perhaps find substitutes. That does not benefit the honey industry. An orderly market benefits all particpants. If all outside honey were suddenly banned from the US, the US beekeeper could not nearly supply the entire US market -- in the short term, at least. The price would spike incredibly for a short period and destroy the market for a long time to come. It would be tough to conduct business because so many people would be going broke or getting out, and everyone would be very wary. Huge spikes in price do damage to the low margin brokers and packers and raise the risk to the point where anyone handling honey must expect high profits to justify the risk, or just stand back. Uncertainty raises costs and scares off participants. If US producers want buyers to be there in the future, US wholesale and retail prices cannot be perrnitted to spike out of reach of consumers. Agreements and contracts for supply must be able to be honored. Supplies from Canada and Argentina -- if sold at prices that do not injure the US beekeeper -- can fill the part of the market that the US industry cannot. This benefits everyone a long as there is a level -- or reasonably level -- playing field for all. In this current price squeeze, the peak will likely be somewhere around $1.50 US. This price range is manageable for all IMO, although it will be hard on the packers for a change. These prices, though are somewhat artificial, and in the long run an increase in supply will come on the market -- some from within the US, as US beekeepers ramp up production -- and some from outside. Hopefully the inevitable increase in supply that will follow this price rise will not be so great that the market will be swamped from the new production a year down the road, at a time when we can expect China to get its act in order. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor wrote: > In article <3D8282EA.5E1991DF@together.net>, michael palmer > writes > >And all this in small print. But, in large print, on another part of the > >label...on jars containing foriegn honey.... > >..."U.S.D.A GRADE A"....a bit misleading to the uninformed, wouldn't you say? > > Why misleading? > Because I don't believe that the uninformed consumer realizes that "USDA Grade A" is only a "quality" statement. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wade Subject: Re: Destruction of comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I brought it in, the outer cover was full > of wax chips and dust, and 8 of the 10 frames > had had all the honey comb areas eaten away, > and all the former brood-comb remained... Here in the midwest, racoons sometimes eat honeycomb right out of a discarded frame at night. Bees finish off what is left by day leaving wax cuttings. The end result appears much as you described. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:02:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sioux Bee Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/09/02 05:03:32 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << f they are a US Coop and were restricted to a 49-51 ratio for foreign to US Honey of members under federal law, then the next question would be: >> Is the ratio of weight, volume, cost to Sioux Bee, or price to the purchaser? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:07:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: AFB outbreak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler mentioned that packages of bee with young vigorous queens were subject to EFB and colony loss in PEI. Then states that "Re-queening, like antibiotics, is most effective before the disease gets going." A little clarification would help me on those points as they appear to clash - at least in the manner put in the mail. By what action Is the changing of the Queen thought to alleviate EFB in the colony? 1.Only the presence of a new queen sorting out the problem? 2. A new Queen invigorating a colony with more brood and subsequent bees, which can then overcome the rate of infection? 3. A new Queen delivering a new packet of genes - more resistant to M. pluton? Also, what are the thoughts on coexistence of EFB and Chalkbrood? - is the latter not thought to inhibit the presence of the former as suggested on page 22 of USDA Diagnosis of Honey Bee Diseases (Hand book 690) - revised July 2000. Comments to educate please! As ever Peter Indre West Central France