From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:39:21 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, DRUGS_ERECTILE,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB29C48F5F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXP010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0209C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 209152 Lines: 4622 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:20:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: FGMO Discussion List Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The FGMO Discussion List is now in full swing with 82 members from all over the world. Members are now getting themselves organised, so that they can be equipped to use FGMO for the full season next year. If you would like to tune in on the discussions and indeed partake in them, the procedures for the List are shown below. Sincerely Tom Barrett Subscribe: FGMOBeekeeping-subscribe@yahoogroups.co.uk Post message: FGMOBeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Unsubscribe: FGMOBeekeeping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.co.uk List owner: FGMOBeekeeping-owner@yahoogroups.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:02:55 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Murray McGregor wrote: > FWIW, a close friend in the trade tells me that they are meeting sharp > competition for Argentine honey in bulk at this time from buyers from > North America. It is rumoured to be all going to Canada to circumvent the US > tarriffs, where it is blended and then entering as Canadian. Why does it need to be blended and then go on to USA. If Canada has an annual crop of c. 30,000 tonnes, why not just sell most of that to the USA and import Argentinean for the local Canadian market? Effective and *legal*. At present we have high World prices and the resulting instability that comes with radical price movements at all levels of the distribution channel due to a paper "shortage". As soon as the trade channels sort themselves out (using above techniques as an example) then the real World supply situation will take over again. The sooner this happens the safer for all in the industry. Supply was meeting demand before the trade barriers/"quality" issues. Decreased demand from higher prices leaves more honey available World wide. And the high price will stimulate increased production. In the short term every last lid and bottom board is being turned into another prodcution unit while sugar (with low prices right now) is being fed to hives in greater quantities than ever before. And longer term?? Bob Harrison wrote: > Argentine beekeepers are tired of being robbed of their honey at low > prices. Argentina increased their hive numbers from 1.4 million to 2.8 million in the last 10 years - while prices bumped along around US$1,000 -$1,100PMT. Expansion of that sort only comes when business is good! With the US$1,600 - US$1,800 the Argentineans are getting now, all that extra captial (tax paid profits) is going to hasten the expansion of their hive numbers - and the increase in World honey supply. IMO 1. We've been set up for a doozy of a fall when all this irons out. The longer it takes the bigger the fall. IMO 2. Govt meddling in the market only leads to pain in the long term - and the taxpayer invariably foots the bill. Check out : www.airborne.co.nz/wldstats.html for a quick snap shot of the current trends from some of the larger producing countries out there. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:48:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: No rain in California Here in California if we don't get some rain soon, I may not be able to brag about not feeding my bees anymore. Out of 100 hives, I only got about 2 ounces of sage this year. Today, I visited my best sage location, which I share with another beekeeper with 30 hives, and the owner of the property told me that all 30 hives of the other guy had died out. Not one was living. Around this area of the Central Coast of California we got hit with drought, mites, Foul brood, pesticides, and now only 3 or 4 inches of rain in 9 months. I've come through fairly well, with about 10% loss to pesticides, a few to Foul brood, 5% to ants (they are unusually hungry too, this year) and a few others to normal attrition, but I've had to give up one of my Farmer's Markets for lack of volume. Anyway, I'm glad for you guys on the East Coast. Just please send over a little rain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:56:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Mite Levels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I said: "I think the sticky board is the unreliable one." -- and then gave my reasoning. Karen said: "Belief doesn't rely on any facts, however. Science and research does. " First, let me say that my *opinion* is based solely on my experience working at a recognized honey bee research facility. My "belief", that is -- what I believe -- is based entirely upon what I have seen. Second, facts -- in the sense of data -- are entirely meaningless by themselves. Any data set has to be interpreted. And any interpretation is necessarily subjective, a working hypothesis. However, those of us doing research make a concerted effort to eliminate bias and prejudice in our thinking, in order to lend credence to our conclusions. Researchers tend to be thoroughly familiar with their subject. Their conclusions may carry a little more weight than those of people who haven't studied a subject outside of reading the paper or listening to the opinions of others. When I say: "I think the sticky board is the unreliable one", this statement is based on hundreds of observations of colonies using both sticky boards and ether rolls. In the final analysis, however, my conclusion rests mainly on the fact that a sticky board test cannot distinguish a low number caused by a low rate of infestation and a low number caused by a very small cluster (read: hive almost dead). Bottom line: any method that promises to diagnose a hive *without opening it* is bound to fail. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:02:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: No rain in California In-Reply-To: <200209151348.g8FDmHTX019903@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >Anyway, I'm glad for you guys on the East Coast. Just please send over a >little rain. What rain on the east coast? Here in the DC area we are experiencing the worst drought in recorded history (that's about 140 years of record keeping). It's raining today (a tropical storm) but the drought is so bad that trees in the forest have been dying off. We did have rain for the spring flow, but hardly anything since. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:12:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan raises some interesting observations on the pattern of EFB in Prince Edward Island. EFB is said to be caused by stress, but I think it would be more accurate to say it is wholly a bacterial disease which comes to the notice of beekeepers when the colony is stressed. The beekeeper notices the distorted and dying larvae and worries. It is not these he needs to worry about - they can't pass on the disease. It is during periods of less stress and greater prosperity that the larvae get fed well enough to pupate and emerge and at the same time multiply and spread the bacteria. Stan mentioned that some bees from the same source as others did not appear to have problems. Did they then bring the EFB with them or were they placed on combs that had EFB from an earlier infection? Had the brood combs on which they were placed been routinely fumigated? The coincidence of Chalk Brood and visible EFB is interesting. I once heard it postulated that Ascosphera apis, the Chalk Brood fungus, is only able to penetrate the gut lining of the larva if it is not up to scratch because of poor nutrition, especially of protein. Visible EFB is the sight of starving larvae as the bacteria are eating all their food. What's the protein like in PEI Stan? Are those going down with CB and EFB foraging on different crops to those apparently healthy? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:42:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jo Subject: simple query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a simple query. What is the best way to clean beekeepers gloves. They are the pigskin ones supplied from Thornes and have got very sticky and coloured. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:53:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: simple query In-Reply-To: <004701c25d00$bd6521e0$8e587ad5@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:42 PM 9/15/02 +0100, you wrote: Saddle soap and warm water. Dry slowly, best to put on and stretch just before they totally dry. >I have a simple query. What is the best way to clean beekeepers gloves. >They are the pigskin ones supplied from Thornes and have got very sticky and >coloured. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:39:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susanne Subject: Re: simple query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have a simple query. What is the best way to clean beekeepers gloves. > They are the pigskin ones supplied from Thornes and have got very sticky and > coloured. I wash mine in the washing machine and then hang to dry. Sue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:26:10 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Accepting that it is the adult bees that carry and infect the next generation of brood. Consequently, this allows for the possibility of passing the infection from one hive to another by transferring adult bees. But are you stating that if brood comb is transferred from one colony to another - this will not spread the disease? Once the larvae are dead - then are they considered as non -infectious bodies? Ref. taken from JD and BD Yates "Beekeeping study notes (modules 1,2,3 and 4) suggest that it is the fecal material from larvae that do not die that allows the spread via. house bees. What about fecal material from larvae that do die - is this infectious? What is really wanted is a good description of the life cycle and infective periods of M. pluton - at least by this beekeeper! Any references that you know of? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:08:28 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: simple query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo, Soak them over night in cold Chlorine water. A concentrated solution can be found in any supermarket - usually in a flexible recharge type plastic container. This is diluted according to the instructions - 1 of conc. solution to 10 of water, if I remember well. This will break up the propolis, wax and clear any other material - as well as disinfecting the leather. Rinse well next morning. It will slightly bleach the pig skin - but will not in my experience cause any problem to the gloves. Mine get the treatment at least once a week in the season. At the end of which they are usually discarded. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:58:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: AFB outbreak In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020914075912.00a8d1a0@mail.auracom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5.1.0.14.1.20020914075912.00a8d1a0@mail.auracom.com>, Stan Sandler writes >Please elaborate James on criteria for EFB comb destruction. Readers should realise that this is UK experience and legislation and working (usually) with a single brood chamber. If anyone thinks this last is strange, I do get 100lb+ from good colonies and 160-200 from colonies in good apiaries. One of my friends got 800lb from a 5-colony apiary last year and a half-ton from 8 colonies in a different apiary this year. These are static and not moved for pollination or forage. I can only go on the mixed experience of having to call in our Bee Inspectors over a period of more years than I care to think, since my first detection of EFB. We are legally obliged to call them in if we suspect either foul brood. If the colony has more than half its brood affected the whole hive innards are destroyed, i.e. all frames, honey included; the hive body and queen excluder are flamed drastically (zinc excluders melt!). If it is weak it is similarly destroyed. The whole apiary is examined at the time, a standstill order is put on the apiary, until it is cleared 6 weeks later. This means nothing goes out. If the colony is considered strong enough to take medication, outside spring, then it is given oxytetracycline (I think). In the last case where one of my colonies was treated in August, we also removed and destroyed 4 of the oldest combs in the hive and left the 5 most recently given foundation (this year or last). We wait and see. If a colony is to be treated in spring, now the preferred method is to destroy all frames and brood, re-hive the colony on foundation with a queen excluder below along with medication. I have not seen that in practice since I chose to destroy all colonies infected in spring this year. In addition, the one colony treated several years ago had to be destroyed as the disease was still present 6 weeks later. Conversations with the various inspectors suggest it is a poorly understood disease: some consider it endemic and develops according to stress; others consider it brought in as an infection. There is evidence about variation in pollen quality notably the extent of linoleic and linolenic acids keep bees healthy as they do humans. I was given some information about how a map of EFB incidence has peculiarities, including seeming to associate with beekeepers who are known to have it and other oddities that I was asked to keep quiet about. Certainly our intermittent flows and intermittent nectar gathering cause problems: confinement means well-fed larvae so they don't starve, but may live to infect the next generation; abundant nectar may paradoxically mean minimal feeding so starvation shows up and infected larvae die. Hygienic bees remove infected larvae quickly so you just may not see it. But you do see the increasingly uneven brood pattern. Actually if you look very carefully you may find just one or two infected larvae not yet removed. I prize colonies that are poorly patterned but have no chalk brood or EFB for assessment of varroa levels: I hypothesize that they are removing varroa-infected larvae, which I hope will show up as low varroa levels. >- EFB is not a spore forming bacteria. I would still like confirmation of >this, Yes, this is what I have been taught by all experts. > and it leads one to the question of how long the bacteria itself >remains infective. I don't know. The thing about EFB is that the infected larva may leave a small hole in its cocoon, so that when it defecates the faeces are in contact with the next larva's food. Hence it will infect the next larva. So, a removed larva will still pass on its infection. I was told that acetic acid vapour is acceptable to sterilize empty honey supers, but would not be considered a reliable method for comb used in brood rearing. In any case, all sorts of bacteria have been found in honey, presumably inert whilst the honey is capped. So, presumably it would live on in stored honey until it was used by the bees, when it would infect the larvae, but at perhaps a sub-critical level. > This is a simple question, it should have a simple, >experimentally verified answer. It is also a question of importance to the >idea of comb destruction, and to the beekeeper if he wants to decide how >long to remove frames from active duty before reintroducing them. See above. I would destroy all comb used for brood from an apiary that had EFB confirmed, in case it was in the comb of the hive from which it came, even if it had been passed as OK. IMHO it is not prudent to reuse possibly infected comb even if treated with acetic acid. Late spring bees have wax producing bees in abundance and will draw copious comb. This year I managed to get all hives in an apiary to redo all the (single) brood chamber frames by demareeing them (above the queen excluder initially) in an attempt to remove all possible infection. All removed combs were rendered after removing honey for personal use as were honey frames from infected hives (with Inspector's permission). >3. The disease certainly does seem to be infective and does spread in the >apiary so comb removal is likely indicated. I have one apiary where it reappears year after year even though colonies are destroyed. The Inspectors suspect a nearby unknown beekeeper as the source. One trick used by beekeepers (not in George Imirie's meaning) is to re-colonize an empty hive with a swarm. Once it dies, they presume it was caused by varroa since they refuse to treat it, and put in another swarm. So, EFB is preserved and any honey robbed out of the brood section by another colony will take EFB away. I don't understand infection of an apiary at all I have to say. Drifting would normally be the older flying bees that are not feeding larvae. Unless when they process honey they add EFB bacteria to the honey with the enzyme. But surely individual bees would add little EFB bacteria. I suppose strong robbing might do it. Perhaps I should be more careful to reduce entrances once the main flow stops - too late now! >4. Here is PEI the disease is almost always accompanied by severe >chalkbrood. This is a mixed blessing. Apparently chalk brood can act as a preventative to EFB. The chalk brood suppresses the EFB in that cell. (I only half remember what I was told). In another paper, I read that bees can also stuff pollen into cells to do the same. This year I saw lots more colonies than usual stuffing masses of pollen into the brood rearing area. But chalk brood itself will stress colonies since they have to keep the area warm but don't profit from the hatching bees to carry on all the hive jobs: double trouble (especially in spring as the colonies try to build up). >5. Requeening, like antibiotics, is most effective before the disease gets >going. Unfortunately this is not an option here: we must report our suspicion, then apart from consultation, which seems more thorough if you are commercial, the matter is out of your hands. It might be possible, where you don't have the legislation, to cull infected combs only, or do this and then requeen. To do this you'd normally have to be commercial and have young queens at the ready (or buy them in). I would not be too happy with the idea of uniting a colony with EFB to a colony without, though I suppose if you de-queened and put the colony on top of another one, and removed all comb once the brood was hatched, you might succeed. But successful larvae in the colony with EFB would simply pass it on to the larvae they feed. I don't understand requeening as a solution, unless, as you say, it is at a low level and since bees feed many larvae, the bacteria are so spread out the number never gets to a critical level in any bee. In this case, its level would reduce over the generations. Can anyone help here? -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:48:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin In-Reply-To: <3D85038F.9371.42C413@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <3D85038F.9371.42C413@localhost>, Peter Bray writes >Why does it need to be blended and then go on to USA. If Canada has an >annual crop of c. 30,000 tonnes, why not just sell most of that to the USA >and import Argentinean for the local Canadian market? Effective and *legal*. Possibly because, just like in NZ, there is a crop failure and the 30,000 tonnes was reported by the same source to be only 6,000 tonnes this year. This estimate was before the August rains in the prairie provinces so it may have improved a bit since then, but to nowhere near average figures. Add in the crop failures in other countries, such as Australia, and you have a serious natural shortfall on top of the Chinese withdrawal. Crops in E.Europe are nothing fancy either, so I doubt the prices will drop much till the new S. Hemisphere crop reports start to come in. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:19:49 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: GM crop taints honey two miles away, test reveals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE SUNDAY TIMES September 15, 2002 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-416027,00.html GM crop taints honey two miles away, test reveals Mark Macaskill edited According to this article, evidence that genetically modified (GM) crops can contaminate food supplies for miles around has been revealed in independent tests commissioned by The Sunday Times. The tests found alien GM material in honey from beehives two miles from a site where GM crops were being grown under government supervision. It is believed to have been carried there by bees gathering pollen in the GM test sites. The disclosure, showing that GM organisms can enter the food chain without consumers or even farmers knowing they are present, will undermine assurances by Tony Blair and ministers that such crops can be tested without contaminating the food chain. The GM material was found in honey sold from farmer David Rolfe's hives at Newport-on-Tay in Fife, almost two miles from one of 18 sites holding trials of GM oil-seed rape. A test carried out by GeneScan, a respected independent laboratory in Bremen, Germany, checked for traces of an NOS terminator, one of four modified genes which make the crop resistant to pesticides. This proved positive. A second test confirmed that GM material in the honey could have come only >from oil- seed rape grown at Wester Friarton, in Newport-on-Tay, by Aventis, one of the world's biggest biotechnology firms. The fact that the GM material travelled such a distance makes a mockery of the government's 50m-200m crop-free ’ buffer zones that were created around GM sites to protect neighbouring farms. Critics have claimed that the GM crop trial sites are too close to other farms. America has buffer zones of up to 400m, Canada up to 800m, and the European Union recommends a 5km (three-mile) zone for GM oilseed rape. The tests will bring pressure on Aventis, which was accused of a serious breach of regulations earlier this year after GM trials in 12 sites were contaminated with antibiotic genes. These are controversial because of the danger of gene transfer to bacteria in animals and humans, who could become immune to common life- saving antibiotics. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - For SC email list T-and-C, send: GET TERMS-AND-CONDITIONS.CURRENT to listserv@lists.sierraclub.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:10:23 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: rudi bertero Subject: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Dillon wrote: Please remember - beekeepers from different countries are proud of what they produce, and if it is of proper quality deserves to be sold wherever. =20 Reply: Of course, it should be so. =20 Bob Harrison wrote: =20 The largest stockpile of dark bakery grade honey in the world. Only = valuable if you have got grade A white honey to blend with the Argentine only. = Is this really a wise move? Reply: =20 You should go outside USA sometime and get informed of other people in = the world working pretty good before you speak that way. It appears that = your airs of imperialism and superiority don't let you see beyond your = nose. I'm part of a coop down here in Argentina with almost one hundred = members that were working on R&D and production for quite a long time. = We are divided in 7 groups, each one in a different city within a region = of 200 miles diameter, and also each one with its own extracting plant = which fulfills with all the international requirements of hygienic and = quality assurance as you can see in the attached file. Our coop members work under a Protocol of good practices of handling and = manufacture that also prohibits the usage of antibiotics, for what, we = had to develop a R&D division which works with hygienic behavior among = other things. One German buyer ones told me that if the public in Germany would become = aware of honey not been that pure (i.e. contaminated with antibiotics = and pesticides used in the control of varroa), the consumption of honey = would drop as low as 20% in a very short time. Taking this into account, which might apply to other countries as well, = we decided to work on those types of actions, and we're working now to = develop the technology, through the replacement with packages, that will = allowed us not to use chemicals to control varroa. We work also with trazability and we=B4re developing a program where you = can, through internet and via codes, see with pictures and details where = the honey comes from and how was handled when you have purchased a jar = at the supermarket or a drum when applies. And of course, we = differentiate our production by botanical origin. Regarding this, our = major production comes from clovers and alfalfas, then giving quite = clear honeys and of great quality. As to the issue of the agreement that Sioux Honey has signed up here, I = had the opportunity to get some information and I=B4ll make some = comments: Sioux Honey process 30.000MT yearly from which 20.000MT are from its = members, and the rest they buy outside. This is done mainly because they = need to run all its industrial cappacity for a matter of costs, and to = meet with its comercial compromises. So, if one year its members produce = in excess of 20.000MT they buy less outside and vice versa. That agreement is exactly what beekeepers in Argentina were looking for, = because we, the same as you, don't like the problem of prices. Making = this agreements producers-producers will take middlemans out and much of = the problem out. When you took the anti-dummping actions, they should have been applied = to them only, because they kept for them a tax return that should have = been given to beekeepers who paid them. What happened is, that they were = not affected; the only thing they did was to pay less to producers. = Anyway, the impact was minor because much of our honey went to Europe. = Now, after peso's devaluation things have changed a lot, since the gov. = needs money and instead of returning taxes they have established a = retaintion tax on exports of 10%. So Bob, you are invited to come here any time you want. The stay its on = us. We'll share some opinions and perhaps, if we agree that at least in = this product there is enogh room in the market for everyone, and for the = good of the honey market in the world, we shall begin not thinking as = rivals but rather as part of the same side, we will be able to develop = better agreements for us, "producers". =20 =20 Rudi Bertero =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:11:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Simple query - glove cleaning In-Reply-To: <004701c25d00$bd6521e0$8e587ad5@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I have a simple query. What is the best way to clean beekeepers gloves. >They are the pigskin ones supplied from Thornes and have got very sticky and >coloured. Propolis dissolves very well in ordinary ethyl alcohol. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:25:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: simple query In-Reply-To: <000801c25d11$2b0e9b80$aaebe2d1@encode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:39 PM 9/15/02 -0400, you wrote: >I wash mine in the washing machine and then hang to dry. Same here, though I rub mink oil on them when still damp to keep them soft and pliable. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:02:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mite Levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > However, those of us doing research make a concerted effort to > eliminate bias and prejudice in our thinking, in order to lend > credence to our conclusions. > When I say: "I think the sticky board is the unreliable one", this > statement is based on hundreds of observations of colonies using both > sticky boards and ether rolls. > Bottom line: any method that promises to diagnose a hive *without > opening it* is bound to fail. If you want to have an indicator of mite load and when to treat, then sticky boards are fine. But if you want to determine the actual mite load after treatment, only the ether roll gives a reasonable degree of accuracy. Apistan, cumophose, sugar rolls and the like will not give an accurate mite load since they all have their shortfalls. So stickey boards are unreliable for mite load after treatment but they do give an indicator of trouble and mite load before treatment. So I am still with Peter as the ether roll being the best test for mite load. But I use stickey boards to watch for trends. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:32:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: EFB levels in UK was([BEE-L] AFB outbreak) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FFA46D0; boundary="=======1105618E=======" --=======1105618E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FFA46D0; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 16:54 14/09/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 14/09/02 05:03:32 GMT Daylight Time, Mike Rowbottom writes: > ><< The data from the Bee Disease Insurance Co show that there has been a > progressive increase in the number of EFB claims per insured colony in the > UK over recent years. >> > >Mike, do you happen to know whether there is any correlation between the >increase in recent years with the antibiotic treatment policy of recent years? > >Chris The data came from the claims records published by Bee Disease Insurance. My calculated results are: Year Claims for EFB per insured colony 1994 0.0020 19950.0016 19960.0025 19970.0027 19980.0038 19990.0034 20000.0048 I have the results for 2001 but Foot and Mouth disease in England disrupted brood inspections so much they are probably not meaningful as a comparison. The rise predates the new treatment, which I believe was only fully implemented from 2002 onwards. For comparison, the AFB claim rate per insured colony averaged 0.0006 (range 0.0002 to 0.001) over the same time period, with no apparent trend upwards. The AFB rate is approximately an order of magnitude lower than that for EFB. Some care is needed with these numbers as other factors may be at present. The number of colonies insured fell by 46% over the time period and this is almost the same as the number of beekeepers insuring. It is possible that the remaining beekeepers may be the more dedicated ones and perhaps more likely to be vigilant in looking for abnormal brood? Regards Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======1105618E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-FFA46D0 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002 --=======1105618E=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Marriage between Sioux Honey and FACAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rudi, I appriciate your response and offer. The only Argentine honey I have seen has been bakery grade and blended with water white in the following blend. 8 drums Argentine to two drums water white. Maybe the importers I have visited do not buy your better honey. The middlemen you hope to eliminate may go out from between you and the U.S. market but are not going away but only to another source. Neither you nor Sioux Bee can compete with imported honey from China prices. China has more hives than both the U.S. and Argentina combined. When they dump again prices will fall. Your situation is different than the U.S. situation in that you are needing to export most of your honey. The U.S. honey producer can always slam the door on imports by selling below your prices and delivering to the plant saving shipping costs to the packer. Low prices from imports of foriegn honey have turned the packers away from supporting the American beekeeper causing many beekeeping families to go under. Causing hard feelings that only time and kind responses from beekeepers like yourself will heal. They bought *your honey* ahead of ours. The blended honey produced today by Sioux Bee is hurting the market. I buy a jar about once a month to taste. Yuk! The Canadians or any packer selling straight water white could capture the market *IF* they could compete price wise and show the consumer the difference in flavor. I also predict China will simply blend contaminated honey with *new crop* until the contaminated honey can not be detected and then flood the market in the next year when the new crop is ready to market. Prices could go to record lows as Peter has predicted! As you expand hive numbers (as Peter predicts) in Argentina be sure and add enough warehouse space to store the drums until the price goes back up. You will most likely be given the same choice as the American Beekeeper. Get below China prices if you want to sell drums of honey. China honey I have seen is not as dark as the Argentine honey I have seen thus not needing the water white to blend with. Some China honey is close to water white. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Mite Levels In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:56 PM 9/14/02 -0400, you wrote: > In the final analysis, however, my >conclusion rests mainly on the fact that a sticky board test cannot >distinguish a low number caused by a low rate of infestation and a >low number caused by a very small cluster (read: hive almost dead). Herein lies the flaw in the sticky board test. It is missing one important piece of information required to evaluate the data with any meaning. The sugar roll gives you two pieces of information, mite count and sample size, where as the sticky board only gives a mite count which is of little value without a sample size. Of course even if you know the number of mites per 1000 bees, I would expect hives to vary quite a bit, amount of brood, age of the queen, general health of the hive, genetics, season etc. A fairly complex picture. If using the sticky board (or other testing method) one must take a look at many other factors to determine if treatment is required. A mite threshold may work but probably should be a range varying from hives in poor condition that need treated with even low mite counts, to excellent condition. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:25:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Banding Hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings Fortunately, I don't have to move hives all that often, but when I do it's often in the summer. Usually I nail 4 wooden slats up the sides, and move them as triples (three story). (I have a lift gate on my pick-up truck, so weight is not a problem.) I would like to get away from hammer and nails. It's slow, annoys the bees, and damages the boxes. Has anybody used a system of banding or strapping on hives? There is a variety of styles going from plastic ribbon, nylon weave, to steel. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:50:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Banding Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have moved hives easily by just using one nylon winch strap per hive. Then my husband and I hoist them into the pickup. It worked better than he thought it would! Denise Hubler Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:55:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Banding Hives In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020916121244.00a076b0@postoffice4.mail.cornel l.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter, we started out years ago using lath, nails, and hive staples. By the time you are ready to load, the bees are not very happy. Nailing and prying off the lathe eventually takes its toll on equipment. We've used nylon web straps for years. These are available in the U.S. and you can make your own (buy straps and buckles) or buy the complete unit. Keep an eye on sales at auto parts centers, KMART, Walmart, etc. Almost any will work as well as the lathe with a lot less disturbance to the bees. However, for reliability and ease of use, invest in straps with rachets. The friction buckles and clips, and the clamp style systems are hard to pull down tight, and if a hive topples during loading, the boxes may slide apart. With the rachets, you can pull the straps so tight that they will dig into the covers and bottoms, leaving dents in the wood. Those hives can fall off the truck and still stay together. With lifts, etc.; no need to crank them down that tight. In the U.S., the rachets come in two styles: Web straps with hooks, and web straps that simply thread through the rachet -- no hooks. Both styles thread through rachet to take up slack and tighten. Either works fine, your preference. I don't like the hooks as well, you have to position the hooks over a flat surface (box side or cover). But, you can leave the free end threaded through the rachet - something that's not easy with gloves (if you wear them). Me, I prefer the ones without hooks -- more flexible. But, my crews like the hooks better. Be sure to buy straps that are long enought to go fully around your tallest hive body stack (they are sold in various lengths - 8ft, 12 ft, 16 ft, etc.) Now, if you use the rachets, there are three important tips to remember. 1. Position the rachet near the center of the cover - its a lot easier to get to it there, and it won't interfer with side-by-side loading of hives (the rachets get in the way if they are between the hives (hive body sides). 2. After threading the web strap through the rachet, pull through as much slack as possible before starting to work the rachet. DO NOT just start cranking away on the rachet. If you do so, you will get a large roll of web strap inside the rachet - and it will certainly JAM. 3. To keep from tripping over extra web straps dangling down the sides (especially true with long straps over short stacks), just before you full tighten the strap, fold up the excess strap and tuck it under the web strap on top of the cover, just ahead or behind the rachet buckle. Now, when you tighten down the strap, it will trap the excess web strap underneath, where the wind can't blow it free. 4. If you insist on really tightening these straps down to the point where you can pluck them like a guitar string, be aware that you will indent the wood, and that you will have to fight the release mechanism. Here's another trick. Most of these rachets have two releases, one on each side of the hinge mechanism. Note, I said TWO releases. These are usually a T-shaped bit of metal with a spring that is held against the teeth of the rachet mechanism. The trick is to engage the rachet tightening lever, just a bit, as if you are going to tighten even more. That will take the pressure off of the release on the other side of the hinge (the part of the buckle that does not move). Pull back on the release, and the strap will begin to come loose. Now, release the tightening lever and the release on its side of the gear teeth. Pull upward on the whole mechanism, and both sides of the web straps should slide loose. Keeping in mind, you still have to be pulling the releases back. Takes two hands, but even the tightest straps come loose. Finally, these straps are not UV resistant. The cheap straps with the friction buckles last no more than a yr or 2. The better nylon straps with rachets usually last several years - even if left on the hives. For our research hives, we use both. Rather than fuss with rocks, weights, and other things to keep wind AND KIDS from knocking off the covers, we use the cheap straps to keep the lids on and things together. For moving, we pull out the rachet straps. But, we never move all of the hives at one time. As such, we don't leave the expensive straps out in the weather. The others, particularly if you build your own, are relatively cheap. In our part of the world, almost any hardware or outdoors recreation store sells strapping of all sizes and materials by the ft from large rolls. And the buckles are also easy to get. We can't buy the rachets - so I watch for sales at Wally Mart. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:13:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Typing in a hurry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All: I pop in my responses quickly as I deal with the 50-100 business related e-mails that I get each day. I often just type away, then run a spell check. Just looked through my last post. The spell checker doesn't know the difference between lath and lathe (although my typo is somewhat funny), and it doesn't check my logic - I started with three tips, then numbered 4 and added a couple of others. Sorry, but I assume that you know my emphasis is on sharing information, so please excuse the mistakes. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:12:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Banding Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & All, > I would like to get away from hammer and nails. It's slow, annoys the bees, > and damages the boxes. Has anybody used a system of banding or strapping on > hives? > Below is a URL that explains how I use straps for moving hives. http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/moving.html . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:31:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Banding Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would like to get away from hammer and nails. It's slow, annoys the bees, and damages the boxes. We found that an electric drill and drywall or decking nails work well as far as speed, with minimum disturbance, is concerned. Be sure to carry extra batteries and/or a screwdriver for backup. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:33:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Banding Hives In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020916115547.012f1d2c@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Woven straps with ratchets in at least two weights are a frequent loss leader at "Harbor Freight." Once you order from them, you will always know the current price. I'm still looking for a good use for their catalogs. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:43:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, The larvae that die of EFB do so before they defecate and are removed by the undertakers intact without spreading their gut contents of bacteria. Those that live to pupate do defecate. The first duty of a young bee after emergence is to clean up cells using her tongue. Her next duty is to feed the next generation of babies, again using her bacteria laden tongue. This is the main way of passing the bacteria within the hive. Between hives I would guess drifting and robbing if left to nature, but the beekeeper is probably the main cause if the bees have one. There is much that is not known about EFB, particularly the life span of the bacteria. They do not form spores as AFB bacteria do, and this is why I asked the question about fumigation of combs, but clearly they can live long enough in the hive to survive long broodless periods without the protection of a spores coat. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:02:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I first tuned into this List about 4 years ago there was much discussion on contamination/substitution/fraud by using High Fructose Cane Sugar which, apparently is difficult to distinguish from honey without a laboratory. I am surprised that the subject hasn't arisen again during this period of world wide honey dearth. Has the practice been discontinued or are people in authority looking the other way? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Honey. The Gourmet Medicine In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020916115547.012f1d2c@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just read about this book in Bee Culture. Has anybody read it? I'd like to know if it quotes reputable studies or if it repeats unsubstantiated folklore. (If the former, I will be purchasing a copy.) Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:22:15 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Bakers and water white honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, In your response to Rudi, you mention that the only Argentinean honey that you have seen is of Bakers grade - it being mixed with water white honey. This blended material I presume is not then being sold as "table honey"? Thanks for a clarification Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:17:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: AHB in Santa Barbara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Africanized bees confirmed in Santa Barbara What we have anticipated for several years has now occurred, so I thought I should inform BEE-L subscribers about what has transpired. On August 4th a bee swarm moved into a discarded trash can in our Santa Barbara area (town of Goleta). The concerned resident contacted the local Vector Control office. Their crew exterminated the bees and sent a sample up to Sacramento for identification and learned that those bees were Africanized. This was the first record of AHB in our county, but the local agriculture office did not receive that confirmation until the first part of September. A bee swarm occupied my backyard swarm hive in the afternoon of September 2nd, very late in the season. Also, I was surprised to find that they foraged before sunrise. The next morning I moved that occupied swarm hive up to our experimental bee yard at the base of the local mountain range. The following morning, our daily paper carried the banner headline, "Killer Bees," referring to the find in Goleta. I thus gathered a sample of the stragglers from our yard and took them to the county agricultural office, where they planned to send that sample to Sacramento for identification. The "Killer Bee" headline stirred me to action. I phoned the Opinion page editor of the daily paper and indicated that I would like to write a commentary before everything got out of hand. He agreed and allowed me 1000 words. He said my piece would not appear during the week of 9/11; he wanted it to appear in the following Sunday morning edition for greater prominence. In the meantime, items appeared in the several weekly papers, with various degrees of misinformation. One letter included the claim, "If you were to breach the perimeter of a hive's territory, you would first encounter the guard drones." Another weekly paper had a color photo on the front page that included a debris laden dead worker bee missing all but one hind wing and most of its legs. My commentary ("Let's not lose perspective about bees") appeared in the Sunday paper and included information about the value of bees and the importance of beekeepers. I also included the county agriculture department web site (www.countyofsb.org/agcomm/default.asp); it had very complete information about Africanized honey bees. The morning after my commentary appeared, the daily paper published an editorial endorsing the points I had made ("Be a honey, don't kill bees"). Surprisingly, the AHB have been established in the Los Angeles Basin since January of 1999, but remarkably few stinging incidents have occurred. We also could have had AHB in our area for a couple of years, but no one has complained. It's almost as if AHB "mellowed out" when reaching our area. Time will tell. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:47:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Honey. The Gourmet Medicine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank & All, > I just read about this book in Bee Culture. Has anybody read it? I'd like > to know if it quotes reputable studies or if it repeats unsubstantiated > folklore. > I have never read this book but after doing a Google.com search on this title I just may purchase it now. It does site numerous studies, so the description says. At beesource.com there is an offer on one page that you can get a very good deal for this book; http://www.beesource.com/pov/traynor/agnewsjun0502.htm The offer is about 3/4 down the page, and from beesource they link you to this site; http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00741.htm Here is another link that I found on Google for beedata and Northern Bee Books; http://www.beedata.com/nbb/joe-trayner.htm Here is the Google search I used; http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Honey+The+Gourmet+Medicine +book . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA kdmalone@ideafamilies.org http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:56:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Honey. The Gourmet Medicine In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > I just read about this book in Bee Culture. Has anybody read it? I'd >like >> to know if it quotes reputable studies or if it repeats unsubstantiated >> folklore. >> > >I have never read this book but after doing a Google.com search on this >title I just may purchase it now. It does site numerous studies, so the >description says. I read Joe Traynor's book all the way through. Then I used one of the special offers I found and purchased a half dozen copies to give others. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: AHB in Santa Barbara Adrian writes Surprisingly, the AHB have been established in the Los Angeles Basin since January of 1999, but remarkably few stinging incidents have occurred. We also could have had AHB in our area for a couple of years, but no one has complained. It's almost as if AHB "mellowed out" when reaching our area. In South Africa many people have bee trees and so forth in their yards. Normally, the bees are fine, it just seems that certain things set them off. I've seen robbing set them off, interestingly. I foolishly left a wet super outside my house, and my neighbors several houses away were stung several times. On another occasion some kids threw rocks at two hives I had by my house for years without problems, and they killed three of my milk goats, one within a few days, and the other two lingered on but never really recovered. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:40:54 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: rudi bertero Subject: Bakers and water white honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bob, I surely appreciate better this response from you. I'm pretty sure what you have seen of our honey doesn't represent the = actual scenario. If there is something that we are proud of, is that most of our "pampas" = honey is pretty clear. Anyway, you must agree with me that "quality" is not a = matter of colour. As a matter of fact, some countries like better dark honeys = over clear and that can be produced with excellent quality. As to the problem of China and prices, I agree with you and Peter. = That's because I still feel much can be done through agreements involving producers-producers. Prices too low are bad, but prices too high don't are good for the whole honey market either. Rudi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:15:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: AHB in Santa Barbara In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adrian, Tim's comments are correct, based on my experience in Guatemala and with AHB in Texas. In Guatemala, a group of us went through several AHB bee yards, and for the most part everything went fine, until we opened an especially large colony on the third day - and things got ugly in a hurry. We have posted on our web site a video of AHB behavior, filmed in TX in August of this year. http://beekeeper.dbs.umt.edu/bees/ElmovBees.wmv This is a large -13MB- .wmv file. It downloads best via Explorer - some browsers such as the older Netscape programs try to download and open it as a binary file. I don't suggest downloading over a slow phone line - but if you have access to a high speed connection, you may find it interesting. In the video, a round "Elmo" ball is seen being covered with bees. This attack occurred as soon as the ball was placed at the entrance - no bouncing, banging on the hive, nothing! As the video plays, you will eventually see the ball bounce around and vibrate. That action knocks off bees - and they immediately regroup on the ball. The toy has a little vibrator and voice chip in it. We ran a wire from the ball into the car. The vibration caused the bees to attack both the ball and the white car! We could hardly see out the windows. It would make a great advertisement for Toyota - no bees got into the car. If you wonder why it takes so long before the ball starts bouncing around - its because I made a dash for the car with the initial out pouring of bees. We were then busy terminating the dozen or so bees that made it into the car with me. The second part of the video shows the same ball - after a good washing and drying in the sun, placed at the entrance of one of Danny Weaver's hives -- big difference! Even with vigorous shaking and bouncing, few bees paid any attention to Elmo. Now here's the rub! The AHB colony was an abandoned colony, kept by a hobbyist. It had been tucked into the woods for more than two years. One of our test monitors - who is not a beekeeper, had been harvesting a few bees from the entrance of this hive to test the bees' ability to get through the mesh used in a large TENT enclosure. He found them a bit more aggressive than Danny's bees, but just enough to cause him to wear a suit. Some weeks before, he went out (unknown to me) with a high school student, opened, and went thought the AHB hive. He used smoke, and nothing unusual happened. The day we were there with Elmo was a different story, altogether. The first bees hit us while we were 30 ft away, setting up the video camera. After the filming, it took a couple of hours before things calmed down enough to be able to separate the camera and the bees -- and I have photos of stings on the black, rubber lens hood. We filmed the AHB hive mid-morning. Late afternoon, we went back to retrieve Elmo. When we drove up, the bees were foraging and ignoring Elmo. Either they had become used to the presence of the ball (likely) or maybe they thought he was dead (yes, I know bees probably don't think). Regardless, as soon as the white car appeared, the bees immediately attacked Elmo and the car again. It took us two days to get poor Elmo back. On the basis of the video, our collaborators finally followed my suggestion and terminated the AHB hive. I offer the video for illustrative purposes. And, I ask whether this behavior is some trick used to generate dollars for AHB research as someone suggested on this List. I don't do AHB research, and I hope that I don't have to work with these bees - no fun at all. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:20:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We have posted on our web site a video of AHB behavior, filmed in TX in August of this year. I hear a lot about AHB, and because of various discussions, have begun to wonder just exactly what an AHB is. People speak and write quite glibly about AHB -- as if we all know exactly what AHB is -- but what exactly is AHB? Does the 'One Drop' rule, formerly applied to humans in the days of apartheid in the US and in SA apply here? Assuming that we can identify an AHB individual, if one drifts into an EHB hive, does that hive then become an AHB hive? If not, then at what level does the hive become AHB? If there is one AHB hive (see above) in a town, then is the town africanized? How about the county in which the town is located? The State? As I understand it, there are a number of genes that are unique to and which distinguish the species of bees that are native to Africa, from the bees that were originally native to Europe. How many of these uniquely African genes must be discovered in a bee for it to be deemed AHB? One? Ten? Is the reverse true? If one distinctly European gene is found, is that bee then EHB. Can a bee be EHB and AHB at the same time? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:37:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: AHB in Santa Barbara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I had been working a hive with AHB like traits, No problems for the most part. They were about midrange in temperament for the kind of bees typically encountered by a commercial beekeeper until I forgot my smoker. I workded nine hives in the yard. It was a great day and the bees in the first nine hives could have been worked without a veil. I gently opened the cover on that hive and experienced what Jerry described. I have been a commercial beekeeper and had to work many mean hives but nothing like this. Instantly my socks were completely covered with bees. You could not see any cloth at all. Anything moving was immediately attacked. I immediately closed the hive up, but the attack got much worse. Curiously, the hives were located in a horse pasture. The horse was standing about 20 feet away and I thought, boy is he going to get it. Not so, the bees left the horse completely alone. But neither my truck or myselft fared so well. Birds flying 60 feet above the yard were attacked and followed for 100 yards or more distance. The bees chasing the birds looked like those pictures of drone comets. I afraid some of the smaller, slower birds were killed. Have you ever seen that with Euro bees? Anyway, end of that hive. End of story. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:57:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Honey Book In-Reply-To: <002b01c25e5f$7227a4e0$560bab41@loisg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" With regard to Joe Traynor's book, HONEY: THE GOURMET MEDICINE, Lois George asked: >What special offer? Share with the rest of us. I found the special offer on page 39 of the August issue of BEE CULTURE, "Order 2 copies at the regular price (+ shipping) and get a 3rd copy FREE (no shipping charge for the 3rd copy)." The BOOKMASTERS' add listed the book at $9.95 for each copy, with a $3.00 shipping charge. Their toll-free number: (800) 247-6553 They also have a web site: www.bookmasters.com Hope that helps. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AHB in Santa Barbara MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > http://beekeeper.dbs.umt.edu/bees/ElmovBees.wmv > > This is a large -13MB- .wmv file. It downloads best via Explorer - some > browsers such as the older Netscape programs try to download and open it as > a binary file. If you have any variety of Netscape, RIGHT click on the link and in the new box, click on -save link target as- and it will download to the folder selected. If you forget where you stored it, go to windows explorer, press F3 and search for ElmovBees.wmv. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:31:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <002901c25e66$2dbafee0$5fae73d1@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen asks: what exactly is AHB? He brings up a lot of good points. From my perspective, AHB in the U.S. means Africanzed, not African Honey Bee. From what I read, any AHB colony in the U.S. is not likely to be purely African (genetically). I'm not about to judge those colonies that fall somewhere between EHB and AHB without morphometric, genetic, or other analysis. However, I'm reasonably confident that the hive in our video is NOT EHB. I've dealt with thousands of colonies, working in large commercial operations -- have never seen the behavior evidenced in that video except for the hive in Guatemala. So, either the hive in the AHB zone of TX was AHB, or it was one really nasty EHB hive. Either way, termination is the only prudent remedy. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Retired: Honey equipment for sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Enough equipment to run a mid-sized commercial operation: http://www.pollinator.com/equipmentsale/forsale.htm Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:45:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, You raise good questions. But AHB's have been here since around 1866- 1867. No one was crying then. Why now? Based on this, there is most likely african blood throughout the US gene pool. Also Allen to go one step farther. What % of african bees are gentle bees and are overlooked and assumed to be EHB's? Don't see any one looking for gentle AHB stock heads are turned and assumed it is EHB. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Beeswax candle4s and negative ions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been reading up on the benefits of beeswax candles and one claim I have come across is that burning beeswax candles produces "Negative ions" that "Clean your air" while paraffin candles do not. Can anybody here comment on the validity of that claim? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was just today talking to one of my friends here (who works for the Texas Agricultural Extension Service) about Africanized honey bees in our local area (Brazos County), and when I asked him a question regarding the current status for AHB in our county, he responded that he didn't think the label "Africanized Honey Bee" was a very useful one. They've been here for 10 years, but it was only a couple of months ago that some bees in our county were identified as being AHB because of a stinging incident. The "common-sense" answer he gave me was that he felt that unmanaged feral honey bees don't belong in an urban setting and should be eliminated where they can be a problem. All honey bees, no matter how you want to categorize them (AHB or EHB), can be defensive and it's all a matter of degree. They run a continuum from very gentle to being very defensive. If managed hives are in an urban setting and the beekeeper/owner requeens them with gentle stock if/when they become too defensive, then they are not a problem in that situation. He seems to take the position or have the attitude that honeybees should be managed based on behavior rather than genetics. In the end, isn't that what it all boils down to? Destroy or requeen defensive hives or don't keep bees around where people or animals might be injured or killed. There is always a degree of risk associated with honey bees, whether great or small IMHO. I think I recall Andy saying years ago that if honey bees were genetically tested, we would find AHB genes scattered all over the U.S. continent in all the commercial operations, and then all honeybees in North America would have to be declared "Africanized". Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:53:41 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Beeswax candles & anions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have been reading up on the benefits of beeswax candles and one claim I >have come across is that burning beeswax candles produces "Negative ions" >that "Clean your air" while paraffin candles do not. 1 "Negative ions" (usual scientific term 'anions' - ions attracted to an anode i.e a positive electrode) improve health beyond doubt. This was clear, tho' not in the public realm at the time, from much Ossif of Naval Research work prompted by the concept of sending men underwater for a couple months; and more research in the decades since has confirmed several benefits. 2 Anions also abound near waterfalls and surf - helping perhaps to explain the current series of 'Doonesbury', but anyhow commonly felt to improve well-being. 3 Anions are artificially generated by special high-voltage devices (which in some cases also generate far too much byproduct ozone - NOT good for health). It would be surprising if candles generated the same mix of anions as those arc devices. Also I wonder whether you'd need a Mexican-cathedral density of candles before you achieved the anion density in the air that could be produced by a $39.95 mains-powered few-watt anion 'fountain'. 4 Don't 'beeswax' candles typically also contain a proportion of paraffin? Recipes I've seen certainly do. Candles help people in many undoubted ways. Perhaps anion generation will turn out to be another; but I'd discourage hype based on this claim, until it gets clarified. In a decent science-adept society, several relevant academic & govt lab scientists would be able to take up a suggestion like this and perform enough expts within a year to give a useful if still incomplete picture. Yes, I am assuming the question hasn't been much investigated. Few good q's have, because few if any decent science-adept societies have existed. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:23:18 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Imidaclopride - truth prevails at last? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In court, the Government Commissioner to the State Council has demanded that the Minister of Agriculture reconsiders the demand made by French beekeepers, for the removal of the permit allowing the sale of Gaucho (except for use on Beet). Taking into account the evidence that supports the beekeepers case and the associated scientific evidence now known. This is an extremely important victory for the beekeepers. Final decision to be taken in a few weeks. This is allied to other news that was presented several days ago ( Questions relating to how the molecule Imidaclopride is possibly affecting other non targeted organisms) See: http://www.larecherche.fr/environnement/n020916154156.ubcpkesc.html Shall keep you informed on this topic that has been worked on in the quiet backwaters during several months. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bakers and water white honey Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: genetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Layne detected in an expert >the attitude that honeybees should be managed based on behavior rather than genetics. In the end, isn't that what it all boils down to? As a strong advocate of the Pauper's Split, I am glad to see this eminently sensible remark. Over the 1990s I bred a strain of bee which achieved net storage over the winter (in a benign temperate suburbia with flowers at all seasons and far under saturation with bees) while also extremely mild so that I could rip off a frame of honey in summer wearing no gear at all. Even a major rebuild would evoke only a few stings. I have hardly ever worn gloves. (On the other hand when I wanted some stings on my arthritic ankle, I could usually evoke a few by wearing no shoon.) I have v little interest in any DNA fragments that might have been made from those bees at various stages in that adaptive process. I suspect that only those who know as much as I do about DNA can appreciate how little it matters. (I say so with my fellow biochemist Sheldrake in mind.) This point is compounded by the inherently social nature of our favourite insect - many properties of the colony will (I expect) never be reflected in any individual's DNA. Vislble correlates, whether macroscopic in veins, size of larvae limited by 4.9mm cells, etc, or microscopic e.g fragments that can be extracted from DNA, may be of some use as surrogates for interesting properties (good or bad) of the colony, but for practical purposes empirical vernacular breeding is by far the main hope. I hasten to add that I feel the same about other animals, and plants. Grandmother Smith in a Sydney suburb has given the world more than all the gene-jiggerers put together - and without any identifiable threat. The highest priority should be to retain, and continue to breed from, the numerous superior strains (e.g apples, and many vegetables) that are going extinct year by year. Select on the properties of the colony is IMHO the main slogan. Since the males roam over a region 10^3 sq km, it would seem desirable for all or most beekeepers in that region to follow similar guidelines. This should not be hard to achieve among people more concerned for the health of the biosphere than for short-term money. Those who are primarily involved with bees for commercial reasons need not find any conflict with principles of applied ecology. D T Suzuki will enlighten you - arguably the best N. Amer intellectual in the past half-century. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <002901c25e66$2dbafee0$5fae73d1@allen> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > People speak and write quite glibly > about AHB -- as if we all know exactly what AHB is -- but what exactly is > AHB? Hi Allen - Good luck getting to the bottom of this one. It would seem that this most basic definition of what makes a bee an Africanized one is cloaked in secrecy. I have asked this question many times before on this list and no one has ever been able to say. You are asking very important questions that deserve an answer, especially from those that make these decisions when bees are sent in for testing. Surely there is someone on the list that knows of those doing the testing and could get this answer. The problem is that I fear it is highly political and all lips are sealed, for much money is spent on this one issue. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:43:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, When the researcher moves beyound wing venation to determine AHB the researcher can use variants in the ENZYME HEXOKINASE. The next step is mitochondrial DNA. Most researchers I have talked to explain there is no need to take AHb further than confirming AHB by one or all of the above methods in a percentage of the bees in a swarm tested. Does one really need to know the exact degree of AHB? >From research by Dr. Kerr I found it is possible to determine if the AHB aggressive genes are present in the bee. I have asked two different researchers the question both Allen and Barry seek and the answer was the same. If you wanted to know the exact genetic make up of every bee in a swarm suspected of being AHB it can be done. The cost of such a analysis would be shocking in both time and money. I have also asked if they (in their opinion) believe they would find AHb markers in the general population of our European honey bees as suggested by Barry, Dee and Dennis. Both researchers answered no! If yes they said the above markers would be of little use in determining AHB. The above methods of AHB detection have stood the test of time. I am not a researcher and only a beekeeper with access to researchers and only passing on information passed on to me by my questions. Maybe a "lurker researcher" on the list will comment on my post and give his opinion. Before asked I might add I do not fully understand enzyme and DNA research. I have got a basic knowledge of wing venation for AHB. I might add Ruttner had no trouble telling European bees from the bees of Africa using the Goetz cubital index when the samples were from pure forms of each. AHb would be hard to determine by wing venation alone *in my opinion* but many feral swarms have been classified AHB by the USDA on wing venation alone. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:30:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: guard drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Adrian: >"If you were to breach the perimeter of a hive's territory, you would first encounter the guard drones." Diana Sammataro gives a description on bee anatomy in “The Beekeeper’s Handbook”. On p. 9 she says this: The drone’s abdomen contains the male reproductive organs but has no wax glands and no sting. Sometimes a drone can be found with both male and female parts; these rare *gynandromorphs* may actually be able to sting you!” Perhaps the reporter who did the story saw a squadron of gynandromorphs on the front lines. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: guard drones and other myths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) organization also disseminates a certain amount of information to the public that is curiously misleading. On their web page http://www.peta.org/mall/cc/ingred.html they are critical of the harvest of beeswax, saying among other things that it is taken from "virgin bees". This gave me pause, for it may be more ethical to provide some level of sexual activity for the thousands of worker bees for whom nature has omitted this capability, if not interest. There is also the problem that there is no such thing as a non-virgin drone, or at least not for more than a few minutes at once since after achieving this state they have a habit (again, nature certainly made a mistake here) of keeling over (an exhilarating way to go, I assume). Perhaps these problems can be overcome with some kind of mechanical device, or perhaps the Viagra people can do some joint research with the makers of Apistan and CheckMite, thus enabling us to improve on nature's grand design (a "Strip-Tease" strip to get the virgins aroused, then some kind of plant-like "service station" to be placed in the beeyard for the virgins to land on and, well, you get the picture. I can't wait to see what's next- new chemicals and warnings, new bee equipment to buy......oh boy! /Curtis Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Beeswax candles & anions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1 "Negative ions" (usual scientific term 'anions' - ions attracted > to an anode i.e a positive electrode) improve health beyond doubt. Which anions - all of them? What positive effect do they have? It bugs me that people make claims for "negative ions" as thought there is this is one thing. What little I remember of 1st year chemistry suggests that there are certainly hundreds or possibly millions of negatively charged ions. Does the layman's term "negative ions" refer to all of these? > 2 Anions also abound near waterfalls and surf - helping perhaps > to explain the current series of 'Doonesbury', but anyhow commonly felt to > improve well-being. Does agitation of water create anions, or does it cause anions in the water to become air born? > 4 Don't 'beeswax' candles typically also contain a proportion of > paraffin? Recipes I've seen certainly do. Many people sell pure beeswax candles. Others I suppose reduce costs by mixing with paraffin. > Candles help people in many undoubted ways. Perhaps anion > generation will turn out to be another; but I'd discourage hype based on > this claim, until it gets clarified. That is exactly why I am asking. If there is some benefit here I want to tell people about it, but I am not going to spread this information without having at least a rudimentary understanding of what it means and nodding heads from people that understand it better than I do. I know that the BEE-L membership includes many scientists from different disciplines and I am hoping that they will be able to clarify this for me. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:59:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <001701c25ecd$e89cec20$2eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Some relevant information: >At the local level, a Fast Africanized Bee Identification System (FABIS) >test can be performed. Starting with a sample of 50 to 100 bees, 10 bees >are randomly sorted. The right wing is removed from each and mounted on >microscope slides, and the average wing length is calculated. If the >average wing length is over 9mm, the bees are European Honey Bees. If the >average wing length is under 9mm, the bees are suspect Africanized Honey >Bees. They are only suspect AHB because there are some Egyptian Honey Bees >in the county that are a domesticated bee but are slightly smaller that >the EHB. Some EHB are also slightly smaller than usual. The FABIS test is >like the TB skin test. If the test is negative, you do not have TB. If the >test is positive, you might have TB but need a more sophisticated test to >be sure. > >If there is a need to know for certain that the sample is AHB or not, >e.g., a multiple stinging incident or death, the sample is sent to the >California Department of Food & Agriculture (CDFA) for further testing. >They can perform either a DNA, or complete morphometrics test. The DNA >test compares the DNA from the sample to known DNA standards to determine >whether the bees are AHB or not. This test can be done on a small sample >size but not if the bees were killed with certain pesticides. The >chemicals used to kill the bees interfere with the test. Complete >morphometrics can be used when the sample is contaminated with pesticides. >Complete morphometrics is a series of very precise measurements of various >parts of the bees in the sample. Some involve lengths of specific body >parts, some involve the angles of wing veins. These measurements are then >averaged and compared to a standard. A complete morphometrics test >requires a larger sample size than the DNA test. Both tests are quite >accurate and are considered the final word in AHB determination. http://acwm.co.la.ca.us/scripts/AHB.htm#first -------------------------------------- Hybridization between European and Africanized honeybees in tropical Yucatan, Mexico. II. Morphometric, allozymic and mitochondrial DNA variability in feral colonies excerpts: >The feral colonies in this study showed evidence of much introgression of >European genes, even 10 years after the first report of an Africanized >feral colony in the Yucatan. In contrast, the first feral colonies >collected from this region of Mexico in 1988 seemed to have practically no >evidence of European gene introgression, but 5 years later and onwards the >presence of European genes has been clear in feral bees. > >As the present data suggest, hybridization between Africanized/European >colonies in the tropics can occur provided sufficient European colonies >exist in an area to counterbalance the rapid population growth of >Africanized colonies. A common scenario in South and Central American >countries has been a complete and rapid elimination of managed European >colonies with little introgression of European markers in the feral gene >pool [7, 28]. South American countries had very small resident European >populations compared with the large commercial populations found in SE Mexico. > >Recent studies also provide support for the hypothesis that variation in >European gene introgression in feral populations has been due to numerical >differences between managed European colonies and feral Africanized colonies. > >Probably a combination of all these factors has played a role in >determining that 10 years after the arrival of Africanized honeybees in >Yucatan, feral colonies in this area of Mexico still show evidence of >mixed European/African composition, as indicated by morphological, >isozymic and DNA markers. This evidence suggests that introgressive >hybridization rather than complete replacement is the most parsimonious >hypothesis to explain Africanization in Yucatan, most likely due to the >presence of a large population of resident European bees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin In-Reply-To: <01C25BF5.53C28F90.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: James Fischer > >One one speaks of produce in general, "Local" is an effective synonym for "fresh". >Signs at farmer's markets saying "Fresh Honey" are common. While the term is >laughably meaningless, it is an example of very smart marketing. Actually, "Fresh" is used to imply "Local", while hiding imported products (whether from another state or country). Yes, it is a good marketing strategy. Much as many packers now only include the origin of the packer, not of the honey (packed by XYZ in state X or county Y). One local seller has honey marked "packed for" and his location (which is required by the state, but is misleading due to no origin for any of the honey). Not surprisingly, his clover, wildflower and sourwood are all the same color and the chunk comb honey looks the same regardless of the labeled nectar source. Many purchase his products at flea market vendors or local produce stands, thinking they are getting a "Local" product. >Lloyd, do you participate in the "Pride Of New York" agricultural promotion? >(Here in Virginia, we have "Virginia's Finest".) Our state has a similar program. Easy to participate wne they even have a web site. Getting on it is much more difficult, as small producers seem to be ignored. >in a blind taste test of "foreign stuff" versus honey from the USA? I'll lay out >unlabeled bottles from Canada, USA, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil Labeling can work for foreign honey as well. Those who prefer the taste of that from Canada or the heather fields of the UK, could consistently get what they prefer (rather than a blended product of unknown real origin). Of course, it would lead to the complete collapse of a market for Chinese honey in other than extremely blended or cooked products. However, in all cases you are talking gourmet products (bought for taste and quality) versus commodity products (bought solely on price). In the gourmet market, SB could market a honey as USA only in origin, market honey with specific varieties, etc, and charge appropriately. No market share is lost, as the commodity market is not involved. Only the possibility of gaining in a different (growing) market. However, with a mandate for a minimum amount of US honey in their products, their problem might be more of lessening their entire production, if the US content is a minimum in each product, rather than a minimum of overall product (i.e., if they sell 2 tons of US honey, they lose the ability to sell an additional 2 tons of imported honey, unless they increase their purchase of honey from the US). >The blended products tend to be more professionally packaged than >the local honey. To be honest, much local honey looks as casually >packaged as moonshine Oddly, this seems to have caused buyers of local honey to prefer the mason jar type container as "proof" of authenticity. Now it is used by non-local packer/sellers who use local outlets. Selling in "professional looking" containers (queenline, bears, etc) is seen as equivalent to that blended stuff at the local supermarket. Equally so, labels that are too slick looking. This is true not just in honey, but in other gourmet food products. One recent find is an orange tomato sauce made with heirloom tomatoes -- $.99/qt vs. $2 or so for store brands and $3 or so for gourmet brands. The label looks printed on a home computer and has folksy info about the grower/producer and his high quality tomatoes. And he had enough shelf space that the product must be selling quite well (natural food type store). Karen Oland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Labling with country of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen, Packers operate on the honor system. In certain cases like the fox guarding the chicken coop. Rules are in place but rarely enforced. Most packer honey goes from the packer to the consumer unchecked by the USDA *unless* their has been a complaint. Estimates of millions of pounds of syrup mixed to cut honey through the years to increase profits have been put out by those in enforcement. Only two packers have had their hands lightly slapped from my knowledge. Several employees at the trial of one packer said the mixing of syrup was standard practice. Once sold and consumed the *crime* is covered up and the profits made. Please understand all packers can not be lumped in the same pile with a few outlaw packers. Most packers are honest. Something to consider. The EPA will not let you dump honey or sugar water in a percentage of i believe more than 2-3%. Liquid Sugars of K.C. has been busted several times for simply washing out containers and drums into the sewers. question: *What is the easiest way and most profitable way to dispose of contaminated honey *(of which China is sitting on the largest stockpile in history)? answer: Blend and feed to the worlds population. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello peter and All, > >If there is a need to know for certain that the sample is AHB or not, > >e.g., a multiple stinging incident or death, the sample is sent to the > >California Department of Food & Agriculture (CDFA) for further testing. I am running several weeks behind on beekeeping work or would do the checking myself. Could a fellow BEE-Ler contact the CDFA and ask the questions posted by Allen and Barry and see if they would comment on their testing for BEE-L. Thanks in advance! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:04:59 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Beeswax candle4s and negative ions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Reiter said: > I have been reading up on the benefits of beeswax candles and one claim I > have come across is that burning beeswax candles produces "Negative ions" > that "Clean your air" while paraffin candles do not. > Can anybody here comment on the validity of that claim? Sounds to me like someone promoting pure beeswax candles needs to learn some basic chemistry, and quick. First, a quick joke about ions: Two atoms meet, and they say: 1st Atom: "Ooops, I've lost an electron!" 2nd Atom: "Are you sure you lost it?" 1st Atom: "Yes, I'm Positive!" The point is, one can have either positive or negative ions. Positive ions are when you loose an electron, and negative ions are when you gain an "extra" electron. Combustion is very complex process when one is burning mixtures, like "air" and "a candle". Burning any mix of hydrocarbons (this would include both pure beeswax and lower-cost candles) will produce a small number of ions, but this is a VERY small fraction of the "products of combustion" (about 0.00000001th part of the total mass of the products of combustion). To make these ions, Carbon and Hydrogen in the fuel and Oxygen from the air combine as follows: CH + O = HCO+ + e- The means that you get positive ions of HCO+, plus some left over "free" electrons e-. But not very often. OK, so we have a very very tiny number of "ions". But are these the "negative ions" that are claimed to improve indoor air quality? Nope, sorry. HCO+ is a positive ion. Can the "free electron" (e-) help? Nope, it will get picked up by something that "needs" an electron. (Perhaps the atom in the joke above who lost an electron.) The free electron can combine with a positive ion, which would then become "neutral", but to add an "extra" electron to something, you need energy. "Ionizers" that one buys to "clean the air" create NEGATIVE ions of oxygen. What we just made are POSITIVE ions. The promotional literature for ionizers claim that negative oxygen ions are "good" and positive oxygen ions are "bad". Also, people confuse "ozone" with "ions", since the smell of ozone is the "thunderstorm smell" that most people like, and most "ionizers" create both ozone and oxygen ions. A "negative oxygen ion" is an oxygen atom with an extra electron. They are odorless. Ozone is an oxygen molecule consisting of three oxygen atoms rather than the usual 2 oxygen atoms one finds most often. You can smell ozone when concentrations are high enough. But think about "air cleaning ionizers" for a moment, and recall that they have metal plates that attract dust and dirt from the air. Ionizers are "dust magnets". Leave one by a wall, and the wall will also soon be attracting dust particles if the ionizer is powerful enough. The trade-off here is a simple application of entropy - you can't make something in one place cleaner without making someplace else dirty in the process. (Remember that the next time you plug in your vacuum cleaner!) On the other hand, if you make enough ozone, your house will smell "springtime fresh", and some percentage of the bacteria in the house will die when hit by the ozone. So, if my goal is "cleaner indoor air", I'd rather make ozone than ions, but I'm not going to try to make either by burning things. Burning something makes smoke and soot in greater quantity than anything else, and smoke and soot are NOT going to help clean anyone's air. I wrote a recent article for Bee Culture about smoke, focusing on bee smokers, you can read it online if you want to get the low down on combustion and what you get when you burn stuff: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/months/02aug/02aug2.htm jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beeswax candles & anions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank I. Reiter wrote: >>1 "Negative ions" (usual scientific term 'anions' - ions attracted >>to an anode i.e a positive electrode) improve health beyond doubt. > > > Which anions - all of them? What positive effect do they have? It bugs me > that people make claims for "negative ions" as thought there is this is one > thing. What little I remember of 1st year chemistry suggests that there are > certainly hundreds or possibly millions of negatively charged ions. Does > the layman's term "negative ions" refer to all of these? A quick check of the internet reveals we are in one of those holistic worlds where they are many proponents but little scientific support. So... beeswax candles are great because they give off negative ions. Or... they give off negative ions but do absolutely nothing. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:59:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: AHB verses EHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, http://www.countyofsb.org/agcomm/AHBNews.html Here is a quote from the URL directly above; starting at the 4th paragraph and the 4th sentence it reads as follows; "Africanized honey bees are less predictable and more defensive than European honey bees, and are more likely to defend a greater area around their nest. They respond faster and in greater numbers, although each bee can sting only once. Although these traits have earned Africanized honey bees the nickname "killer bees", in the twelve years since their arrival in the United States via Texas, AHB has only been responsible for about twelve human deaths, mostly in Texas and Arizona. The average number of deaths per year caused by the common European Honey bee in the US is around 40." Interesting is the fact that more deaths are caused by EHB on average per year than has been caused by AHB since it's arrival into the USA. The first land-migrating swarm of Africanized bees was detected in the USA on October 15, 1990. That's twelve deaths divided by twelve years and that leaves an average of one death per year caused by AHB. Something tells me that AHB's are getting a bad rap and are not as much of a threat as some people and the media would like them to be. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:43:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Roody Subject: Re: AHB verses EHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Uhmm, not tp be picky, but this statistic is kind of irrelevant, no? 12 deaths/12 years means what? What is the ratio of bees to population? A more meaningful measure would be deaths per thousand people exposed. I suspect that ratio would be way in the favor of EHB, but miniscule in either case compared to other risks. >Interesting is the fact that more deaths are caused by >EHB on average per >year than has been caused by AHB since it's arrival into >the USA. The first >land-migrating swarm of Africanized bees was detected in >the USA on October >15, 1990. That's twelve deaths divided by twelve years >and that leaves an >average of one death per year caused by AHB. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB verses EHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith and All, > Although these traits have earned Africanized honey bees the >nickname "killer bees", in the twelve years since their arrival in the >United States via Texas, AHB has only been responsible for about >twelve human deaths, mostly in Texas and Arizona. These deaths are from multiple stings . In one case over a thousand stings. >The average number of deaths per year caused by the common >European Honey bee in the US is around 40." These are from anaphylaxis in almost (if not all) cases. > Something tells me that AHB's are getting a bad rap and are not as >much of a threat as some people and the media would like them to be. I am sure the media plays up the threat. However the aggressive AHb can send even the trained professional running for cover. A few hobby beekeepers have said they would keep and work AHb. I never had a commercial beekeeper say (in the U.S.) that AHB would be anything but trouble. Given a choice I would never keep and work the AHB. Dr. Kerr believed that the Africanized bee would make record honey crops. Beekeepers which keep bees for a living work on averages. In my opinion even if the AHB produced a greater production per hive in some cases the total average for the yard would still be below EHB unless a way was found to breed out the constant swarming and absconding of AHB. All beekeepers including myself figure the yearly average production per hive by dividing the production pounds by the total number of hives. Hives which die, abscound or swarm during the season are still counted. . A large amount of swarming can drop greatly the yearly production figure per hive. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:41:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: AHB verses EHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I certainly do not know enough to comment on the whose gene's are where or what gene's are whose. I have talked with those in Africanized areas who claim AHB's are mostly sensationalized feral bees. It could be true, but things have changed for a vast number of beekeepers in Central and South America. Most of the smaller beekeepers quit beekeeping and the larger commercial guys had to change their operations to stay in business. It was the occasional aggressiveness and swarming/absconding that caused these changes as compared to the type of bees they were keeping before. They got their bees away from people and changed how they managed them. I have had to work some large yards of very vicious bees at the worst times every bit as mean as anything I have experienced or seen with bees with AHB characteristics. But it always took some time to get to the point where they were that angry. Some of my Russian bees could get just as mean. But they always gave some warning like head butting or hair pulling even before opening the hive. And then again it would have take awhile in the worst conditions for those bees to get up to that temper. I gently removed a cover and in much less than a minute I had tickle me elmo socks. The birds were fleeing for their lives and everything black on my truck was being attacked. Now that was very uncomfortable for me a beekeeper, but just image your neighbor with tickle me elmo socks or a child riding his bike down the country road with a new kind of hat. I would burn every beehive I own before knowingly placing another human being into that situation. We as beekeepers can get rather casual about threats real and perceived about our bees. A reaction which only elicits a puff of smoke from us would send most fleeing for safety. But let's stand in our neighbors shoes for a moment. How about a neighbor who raises black widow spiders or rattlesnakes or wolves or gators or ??? . And just image they frequently crossed the pasture or got over the fence and into your backyard where you would meet them in the garden, patio or pool. What if you were deathly allergic to gators? :>) Anyway, bees are not domesticated pets. There is an element of uncertainty to their behavior and it's usually greater with those bees migrating up from the south as witnessed by the changed beekeeping practices in those southern areas. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: AHB verses EHB In-Reply-To: <000701c25f4e$7c00a4e0$6eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > AHB has only been responsible for about >twelve human > deaths, mostly in Texas and Arizona. > > These deaths are from multiple stings . In one case over a thousand stings. > >> The average number of deaths per year caused by the common >European Honey > bee in the US is around 40." > > These are from anaphylaxis in almost (if not all) cases. Hello all - Does it really matter how these people died? Any death from bees is a terrible thing. I think the point is, 4 times as many died from EHB than from AHB. Now we would need to figure out what percent of the total bee population is AHB to get a better perspective on these figures. > However the aggressive AHb can > send even the trained professional running for cover. Then it is these bees that need to be eliminated due to their aggression, not all AHB, again, what ever that is. I like Robt Mann's approach to the matter, which deals with a bees behavior, not their DNA. This would then include both EHB and AHB. > if the AHB produced a greater production per hive in some cases the total > average for the yard would still be below EHB unless a way was found to > breed out the constant swarming and absconding of AHB. Unfortunately, comments like this mean little unless there is a clear understanding by all as to what constitutes an AHB. Perhaps a bee that has very high AHB markers (for lack of a better word) would be prone to swarming or absconding, but that leaves a whole lot of other bees that might be labeled AHB but have just a fraction of these markers, or percent of genes, still being part of this "group." Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <001701c25ecd$e89cec20$2eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Most researchers I have talked to explain there is no need to take AHb > further than confirming AHB by one or all of the above methods in a > percentage of the bees in a swarm tested. > Does one really need to know the exact degree of AHB? Hi Bob - Please explain how this works, a bee having various "degrees" of AHB. Are you strictly talking degrees of behavior or something more elusive like DNA/genetics? Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, Barry wrote: > Please explain how this works, a bee having various "degrees" of AHB. Are you strictly talking degrees of behavior or something more elusive like DNA/genetics? Not degrees of behavior. Degrees being the number of genes which are from the African linege. In the first ten to twenty years after the release most AHb tested carried *no* EHB genes. When the African bee entered Mexico the bee encountered huge numbers of commercial EHB. Only then did researchers begain to find EHB genes. The actual degree of AHb would relate to the number of genes which were AHb and the number which were EHb. it is my understanding that the degree of AHb can only be decided by a study of the genes. Although Dr. Marla Spivak classified AHb in her experiments by degrees of aggressive behavior. In a crude way Dr. Spivak had found that among AHB not all carry the three genes Dr. Kerr *said* controlled aggression. I have been told it is rare not to find at least one aggressive gene in a ahb sample . Dr. Spivak in her experiments with AHb in Costa Rica divided her ahb hives into three groupings based solely on degrees of aggression. You can read all about her experiments in Dr. Dewey Caron's new book on Africanized bees in the America's available from A.I. Root. I do not know the answer to Barry and Allen's question as to what exactly does the USDA consider AHB. Hopefully we will hear from the California testing lab. Years ago I thought the wing venation was the way to test for AHB (as did Ruttner). I now consider wing venation primitive as there is no way to tell the degree of AHB genes. Some researchers use the word "marker" in place of "degree". Allen D. and Barry B. have both asked questions I would love to hear those doing the AHB testing respond to. Can someone explain exactly what is involved in determining AHB by testing for enzyme hexokinase? The method is talked about vaguely on pg. 13 of the Sept. 2002 issue of Bee Culture. The article is "Research reviewed" by Steve Sheppard. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, > > Please explain how this works, a bee having various "degrees" of AHB. Are > you strictly talking degrees of behavior or something more elusive like > DNA/genetics? Not degrees of behavior. Degrees being the number of genes which are from the African linege. In the first ten to twenty years after the release most AHb tested carried *no* EHB genes. When the African bee entered Mexico the bee encountered huge numbers of commercial EHB. Only then did researchers begain to find EHB genes. The actual degree of AHb would relate to the number of genes which were AHb and the number which were EHb. It is my understanding that the degree of AHb can only be decided by a study of the genes. Although Dr. Marla Spivak classified AHb in her experiments by degrees of aggressive behavior. In a crude way Dr. Spivak had found that among AHB not all carry the three genes Dr. Kerr *said* controlled aggression. I have been told it is rare not to find at least one aggressive gene in a ahb sample . Dr. Spivak in her experiments with AHb in Costa Rica divided her ahb hives into three groupings based solely on degrees of aggression. You can read all about her experiments in Dr. Dewey Caron's new book on Africanized bees in the America's available from A.I. Root. I do not know the answer to Barry and Allen's question as to what exactly does the USDA consider AHB. Hopefully we will hear from the California testing lab. Can someone explain exactly what is involved in determining AHB by testing for enzyme hexokinase? The method is talked about vaguely on pg. 13 of the Sept. 2002 issue of Bee Culture. The article is "Research reviewed" by Steve Sheppard. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <000901c25f81$bb74a940$38ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings The fact is, the precise identification of genes that influence behavior is not here yet. As the genomes get mapped, it becomes clear that *combinations* of genes produce characteristics, and the presence of particular genes do not necessarily result in traits always being expressed. A recent study *(see below) compared the hypothetical relationship between the families of bees based on appearance (morphometrics) and based on genetic markers. Two completely different lineages appeared. So, the correlation between genes and characteristics is not directly established. But, if the Africanized bees didn't have particular characteristics that differentiate them from other bees, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is these characteristics that makes them of importance. Based on behavior alone, one could justify destroying any colony. Personally, I would not tolerate any hive that repeatedly displays extremely aggressive behavior. In populated USA where Africanized bees are present, the common approach is to destroy any "feral" hives as well as hostile hives in apiaries. The identification tests are more for confirmation and scientific purposes. The European honey bee is probably the main reason that beekeeping was ever developed. It has been manageable for centuries. Were it not for this fact, modern beekeeping might not have come about. It was not developed in Africa or even in Asia, where the other species prevail -- those are either too hostile (Apis dorsata) or produce too little honey (Apis cerana). So, we have relatively docile bees to thank for most of the history of beekeeping. Can you imagine Huber or Langstroth ever making their discoveries with bees that were always flting off the handle and stinging everything that moves? Of course, this knowledge has led to understanding other bees and even other stinging insects. People have studied the internal workings of nests of vicious species like hornets. But despite the fact that vicious bees can be successfully managed, most people agree that these are not desirable bees. In the tropical Americas, it is a matter of adapt or get out. Most beekeepers in the USA and Canada still hold to the idea that we will fight the influx of African traits. But with the increased emphasis on honey bee breeding, this is just one more characteristic that has to be considered when developing a high quality honey bee line. ------------------------------------- *from "Trees for bees" by Peter J. Lockhart and Sydney A. Cameron: >Controversy over the origins and evolution of social behaviour in the major >groups of social bees has fuelled arguments over different >approaches for building evolutionary trees. However, the application >of different >analytical methodologies does not explain why molecular and morphological >data suggest strikingly different hypotheses for the evolution of >eusociality in >bees. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:15:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Banding hives In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020917113135.01390980@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Thanks for really answering my question! I could probably get by with a set for 12 or 14 hives since that's about all the pickup holds, especially if they're triples. But -- do you use one or two straps per hive (you didn't really say). Also, the cheap straps would be great for winter. Last winter I put 4 cleats each on about 150+ hives. What a chore! (Also nailed the inner covers down.) Yes, we did have trouble with kids one spring knocking stuff over. Also, there are bears around here. -- Peter Borst Ithaca, NY plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:38:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please read this entire article before replying to messages or posting to BEE-L. It provides essential information for all BEE-L subscribers. BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join and submit articles for consideration. 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Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:47:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > But despite the > fact that vicious bees can be successfully managed, most people agree > that these are not desirable bees. In the tropical Americas, it is a > matter of adapt or get out. Most beekeepers in the USA and Canada > still hold to the idea that we will fight the influx of African > traits. Liability is also an issue. Generally bees are not a nuisance and beekeepers can successfully thwart lawsuits under those laws (because of prior case law), unless the beekeeper is part of the problem and try to manage vicious bees or contributes to their behavior (i.e. by poor handling). If the bees could be identified as AHB, even in part, then I would suspect the beekeeper will lose in court if it were a jury trial, just because of the reputation of AHB and that they would be considered a nuisance by the jury. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Thanks to peter for his posting. I would like to comment and maybe add to the first paragraph if I may. > The fact is, the precise identification of genes that influence > behavior is not here yet. I would not agree more but we do know quite a bit as far as AHb genes go. Because of the careful choice if the word *precise* I can only agree with the statement. > As the genomes get mapped, it becomes clear > that *combinations* of genes produce characteristics, It has been clear for a long time to many. Dr. kerr spoke about combinations of genes in AHb over 35 years ago. he isolated three which he *claimed* caused aggression in AHB. It is clear to me and many others Dr. Kerr's research was 35 to 40 years ahead of current research in the 60's. Many were afraid of his research back then as they are now with GMO. > and the > presence of particular genes do not necessarily result in traits > always being expressed. >From my research I would believe the above incorrect in combinations of three genes or less. Could very possibly be true with exotic combinations such as color which Dr. Kerr thought could be a possible combination of up to five genes and possibly more. The reason I posted the above was only to share information from Dr Kerr obtained from a retired USDA researcher which was one of Dr. Kerr's closest U.S. contacts in the 60's . I have spent hours gleaning information from him about information Dr W.A. Kerr shared with the USDA 35 years ago. Very little is in print about his work. Punch in his name on line and about all you get is African bee news releases. Carefully worded to only give out vague information. As one reads through the press releases from year to year a bit of new information is added about the release. Two versions of the story exist as well as several different stories as to the amount of queens released. Only one version matches what Dr. Kerr told the USDA. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings Well, gloves for beekeeping is always worth an hour discussion! When I was introduced to beekeeping in 1974, I was given a veil, a hive tool, and a smoker, the keys to the pickup and the owner had over 2000 hives. Gloves, coveralls, etc., I knew nothing about. Of course, I used to get the whiz stung out of me, hundreds per day. Later, moving to California I found out about all that armor that a lot of people wear. But even in California, I used to work with the basics only: a veil, a hive tool, and a smoker. Now, when taking off honey or moving bees, coveralls and gloves are a big plus. But what kind of gloves? Personally, I have a tote box in which I keep several sets of everything I might remotely need. Heavy duty bee gloves, duct tape, extra veils, you name it. But for normal bee work I find that gloves are not necessary and are a hindrance. The tolerance of stings, however, is a personal thing. If you have a couple of hives, work only in good weather, and work very carefully, perhaps you can go bare-handed and not get stung. I usually get stung a lot on the hands, but accept that as part of the game. But what is a lot? Now, I never actually counted it, but when I think about it I would guess I would tolerate being stung about every 5 minutes or so. This is normal casual stinging from rapidly working hives that are not angry. More often than this and I put on gloves. Or, if a hive is furious for some reason, gloves have to go on. But again, what kind of gloves? About 4 years ago, I was introduced to latex gloves -- the type they sell for washing dishes. Of course, I buy them in large lots to bring the price down. These gloves allow you to be almost as skillful as bare-hands. I have caught queens wearing them. (Not easy, but possible.) The main drawback is they fill up with sweat when its hot. I usually wear them for a few days, till they get really grubby, and throw them out. If you have to pay 2 o3 dollars for them, it is worth washing them and making them last. Also, very occasionally they rip. I carry the long sleeved leather bee gloves, but these are only used in an emergency, like if a hive gets dropped or some other such disaster. I have also tried high quality leather gloves without sleeves, but the bees really sting about the wrists with those. Another handy item is Velcro strips -- that is, if you are not wearing a suit with elastic wrists. I sometimes use these on regular sleeves to keep the bees from crawling in. I don't wear them around my ankles (some people do). I find that wearing overly long blue jeans seems to make a good seal around my high topped boots. A lot of beekeepers have made fun of me for always wearing coveralls, but face it: beekeeping is a messy job. If the clothes don't get gross from honey, they end up stained from propolis. I used to have tons of T shirts with streaks of propolis across the stomach, and jeans with stains all over the legs. The white suits get stained in about 2 days and from then on they look pretty bad. Someone should market a tan bee suit. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Someone should market a tan bee suit. Brian Sherriff sells a tan suit in the U.K. He will ship you the suit or bring to a meeting he is attending. Mine still looks dirty when you are close up but not from a distance. I have tried several of the copy cat Sherriff suits but find Brian's superior for these reasons. 1. The Sheriff suit is lighter weight and thus cooler in hot weather. 2. " " " fits tight at the ankles and sleeves 3. " " " veil does not come loose at the side zipper. This is very upsetting when you toss back the veil to drive to another yard and then have to slip the top down to rehook the side veil zipper. 4. ring on side for truck keys 5. several light colors available. . I do not dry in dryer and heavy use of bleach will put holes in the suits after a few years. Peter's early days bee inspector stinging: Also Peter many beekeepers used to collect venom and mix with water and lightly mist bee inspectors when they were not looking. Any former bee inspectors out there which used to always get stung on the back while inspecting hives while the beekeeper never seemed to get stung? You secretly hated to go to his bee farm and would make every excuse to keep from inspecting his bees. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DONALD M CAMPBELL Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning Hi Peter and all, I have been following this string on the gloves, and just like the rest of you, I would get stung on the hands if I did not wear any. I had some success wetting my hands with a mix of apple cider vinegar and a little Fischer's Bee-Quick. This mix does a good job of keeping them off the hands! If I'm really going to tear a hive apart even the mix would help. --- I found a good disposable glove made out of rubber latex. The gloves are blue and come in a box of 50. The gloves are high-risk, powder-free textured exam gloves used by many EMS and Fire Departments. If the bees are really pissed they will sting the gloves, the stingers usually get embedded in the glove and just miss you skin. When finished they are cheap enough to be thrown away.. Happy beekeeping, Don Mohegan Lake, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:20:59 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FRIENDS OF THE EARTH Press Release Embargo: 00:01 Friday 20th September 2002 CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY People who buy honey want it to be completely GM-free a national survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. An NOP poll for the environmental campaign group found that 63 per cent of householders that regularly bought the product want it to be free of GM materials [1]. Earlier this week the Sunday Times reported that it had discovered GM material in honey from beehives two miles from a site where GM crops were being grown under government supervision [2]. Later today (Friday) the British Beekeepers Association (BBKA) is holding a one day conference to discuss GM contamination [3]. The British Beekeepers Association currently advises members to ensure that their hives are at least 6 miles from the nearest GM test sites to avoid GM contamination. The BBKA publishes details of trial sites on its web. Honey bees are often moved around the countryside to provide vital pollination services for fruit growers. The value of this service is put at £200 million. Last week the Scottish Beekeepers Association called for a moratorium on open air planting of GM crops [4]. This week's discovery of GM contaminated honey is not an isolated example that BBKA precautions are well founded. * In 1999, monitoring of pollen collection by honey bees near a GM farm scale trial in Oxfordshire found that bees had travelled nearly three miles (4.5km) to collect pollen from a crop of GM spring oilseed rape [5]. * In 2000, retail samples of honey purchased in England and Austria were found to contain GM pollen [6]. The latest survey results are similar to previous GM polls carried out by NOP for Friends of the Earth. In 1998, 58% of consumers said "no" to GM material in supermarket food. In 2000, 63% of consumers support GM-free animal feed for the production of dairy products, eggs and meat. Pete Riley, GM campaigner at Friends of the Earth, said: "These results clearly show that the public does not want GM material in their honey. Beekeepers must continue to maintain their precautions against GM contamination. But they must also tell the Government and biotech industry that plans to commercialise GM crops in the UK are a threat to honey producers and are totally unacceptable." Roger Holby, a beekeeper from Gloucestershire, said: "The results of this poll confirm what most beekeepers already know. Consumers want their honey to be GM-free. Bee hives are already moved six miles from any GM test sites to reduce the risk of contamination - and the beekeepers foot the bill for this. Why is it that the biotech companies, who cause the problem, escape scott-free? If GM seeds are commercialised customers will either have to accept GM contamination, or bee keepers in this country will be out of a job." ENDS 1. The poll of 1000 people over the age of 15 was carried out by NOP World by telephone from 30th August to 1st September 2002. The poll found that 63% of households that regularly buy honey (at least 4 times per year) did not want it to contain GM pollen. Less than a fifth of regularly honey consumers would accept GM pollen in their honey. Overall 56% of people wanted honey to be GM-free. 2. The GM material that the Sunday Times reported that it had found came from honey from hives at Newport-on-Tay in Fife, Scotland, almost two miles from one of 18 sites conducting trials of GM oil-seed rape 3. The British Beekeepers Association is holding its one day workshop and conference on 'GM crops, Beekeeping and the Honey Industry' at Stoneleigh in Surrey. www.bbka.org.uk 4. Last week the Scottish Beekeepers Association issued the following statement: "As a result of the request by the Executive Committee for Local Association views on the GM crop issue and a vote taken by the Executive Committee at the 14th September 2002 Executive Meeting at Perth, the following official Scottish Beekeepers' Association Policy on GM crops was agreed: - The Scottish Beekeepers' Association have determined that in the absence of all available documented scientific evidence that GM Crops are safe to humans and the environment there must be a moratorium on all open air planting or commercialisation of all GM crops. We consider that it is the responsibility of Government to protect both beekeepers and consumers from being adversely affected by exposure to GM contamination which, to do otherwise we consider would contravene our Human Rights. " 5. In 1999, an independent bee consultant Sarah Brookes collected pollen from bees foraging near a GM spring oilseed rape (an Aventis (now Bayer) variety) farm scale trial near Watlington in Oxfordshire. Bees at the furthest hive from the GM field (4.5km) were found to have collected GM pollen. 6. GM pollen from Monsanto's GM oilseed rape was found in samples of Canadian honey on sale in June 2000. GM pollen from Aventis' (now Bayer) GM oilseed rape was found in honey purchased from retailers close to GM test sites in England. Pete Riley 020 7566 1716 (Thurs)/ 07712 843 210 (mob) -- Neil Verlander Press Office Friends of the Earth 020 7566 1649 or 01223 309 308(t) 07712 843 209 (m) 07654 663 764(p) www.foe.co.uk ==== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:43:36 +1200 Reply-To: Chris Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Subject: Australian and South Afican nectar sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone help me with a list of publications on the main = nectar-producing plants of Australia and South Africa? I am especially = interested in the time and duration of flowering . Chris Smuts-Kennedy smuts@hnpl.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: rtaylor421 Subject: Pollen MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a Beekeeper who is looking for a video describing pollen and its benefits. Does anyknow of a video she might try? Ron Taylor Lowcountry Beekeepers Cottageville SC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Extractor Parts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the replies about where I could get parts for an old extractor. It turns out that my extractor was a Woodman, Grand Rapids Mich., not a Kelley. However, Kelley had sold the Woodman until Woodman went out of business. Therefore they were familiar with it. The difference between the machines is the Kelley machine has a larger drive shaft and larger clutch, but bascially both machines have the same design and working principal. After talking with one of Kelley's technical men I was told to send the old part and they would fabricate one at what I thought was a reasonable price. It arrived yesterday after just a weeks time. I put it on and got the machine working like a new one. Now I have to get busy and sling some honey before the beetle slimes it. Again, I thank the forum and the people at Kelley's, Ms. Mary K. and Mr. Phil, Clarkson, Ky. Will Lewis Union County, Florida. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DONALD M CAMPBELL wrote: > good disposable glove made out of rubber latex. The gloves are blue > and come in a box of 50. > The gloves are high-risk, powder-free textured exam gloves used by many EMS > and Fire Departments. If the bees are really pissed they will sting the > gloves, the stingers usually get embedded in the glove and just miss you > skin. When finished they are cheap enough to be thrown away.. Are these nitril gloves? They are blue and much tougher than plain latex, which are usually white. They are a bit more expensive than latex and are usually used in tougher environments than latex can handle - as you describe. They are especially resistant to puncture, but when they puncture they often do so with a major rip. Shifting to other ways to operate bare handed, another practice is to "wash" your hands in the old smoker ashes before restarting the smoker. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 06:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When reading poll results, it's always helpful to know how the question was phrased; perhaps even more so when the group that orders the poll has an obvious ax to grind. Do you have access to the actual questions used in the poll? As an aside, it seems to me one reasons people protest GM crops is the danger of them causing food allergies. Given the ongoing discussion of honey vs. allergies on this forum, wouldn't it follow that honey containing GM pollens would help to prevent such allergies? Eugene Makovec --- Robt Mann wrote: > FRIENDS OF THE EARTH > Press Release > CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:13:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Banding hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, I have used duct tape lots of times to move hives. Even the cheap brands hold up very well. Best wishes, Garry Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: What, exactly, is an AHB? In-Reply-To: <001d01c25fe5$e1308c80$97ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed quote: > Dr. kerr spoke about combinations of genes in AHb over 35 years ago. he > isolated three which he *claimed* caused aggression in AHB. Greetings With all due respect to Dr. Kerr and others, I would have to say that the notion that there is a "gene" for this or that trait is rapidly becoming outmoded. To put it simply, the term gene is like the term atom. The Greeks first hypothesized the atom as the smallest unit of a given substance that retains the properties of that substance. Hundreds of years later, the atom was defined in terms of chemistry. The term "gene" came into use when people thought there had to be a gene for each character, like a blue eye gene, or a Down's syndrome gene. But even the idea of the atom is no longer that definitive: atoms are shown to be constructed of ever smaller parts, and the multitude of substances can best be defined by their molecules. Even a slight reapportionment of atoms in these molecules is expressed as very different properties. Molecules of carbon and hydrogen range from life giving sugar to poisonous alcohol, with only a slight rearrangement. Furthermore, the presence of an element like chlorine does not automatically make a molecule deadly poisonous, as in sodium chloride (salt). Anyway, molecular biology is like that. You hear less about genes and more about "sequences". These are strings of molecules on the genome that produce various characteristics. So called "gene-splicing" consists of inserting these sequences into the genetic material of organisms. Unfortunately, it is not an exact science. Much remains to be discovered about the function of the sequences and how they act in consort. Some parts seem to control external characters, like eye color. Some sections are now referred to as "markers" inasmuch as the function of the section may or may not be totally understood, but it can serve for identification purposes. Evidently, there are whole strings that *appear to* have no affect, like blanks pages in a book. This is one thing that bothers GM skeptics: the function of the various sequences is not thoroughly understood. Some researchers have succeeded in manipulating this material and produced startling results, without fully understanding genetics. It's like driving a car without knowing what goes on under the hood. We all do it, it's not a problem. But we also are well acquainted with someone who *does* know how the engine works, and how to fix it if it starts giving trouble. pb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:32:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reason that consumers are rejecting GM honey is because they perceive it to be contaminated. There now exists a fear of contamination of all foods. With respect to honey this means: antibiotics (China), residues from various varroa treatments and now, GM contamination. The public are beginning to become clued up as to what goes on and are starting to discriminate which product they will buy. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02-Aug-02 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:45:38 -0400 Reply-To: kgbenson@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith G. Benson" Subject: SC, fall pollen Hello listers, Where might one look to find information re: pollen types and colors in a given geographic region? My gals are frantically busy right now in the fall flow following all the nifty rain we/ve had for the past week or so. While most are returning to the hive with a light yellow pollen, some are bringing in some that is white to slightly off white. Interesting stuff, and I would love to know where it is coming from. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been unable to find a thermostat for a furnace which goes from 40 F. to 100 F. I found one a few years ago which goes from 50F. to 90F which I have been using. I need the extra 10F for drying honey and being able to reduce the temp by 10F. will save fuel costs over the winter as the room only needs to be warm enough to keep water pipes from freezing. Thanks in advance! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:06:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: The mysterious Dr. Warwick Kerr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob Harrison quote: > > Dr. kerr spoke about combinations of genes in AHb over 35 years ago. he isolated three which he *claimed* caused aggression in AHB. Gene research was Dr. kerr's vocation. Geneticist was the way he was referred to in all publications. Most writings about Dr. kerr on the net say *pioneering geneticist*. The two USDA researchers which were the U.S. contact to Dr. Kerr in the 60's felt like grade school kids talking to a college level geneticist they told me. I have searched the net for many hours and to my knowledge only references to Dr. Kerr's work exist. Are any of Dr. Kerr's experiments and conclusions around for the public to see or posted on the net? If not then all we can do is ponder about what Dr. Kerr learned about genes in honey bees from his many experiments. Sincerely, Bob Ps. Two most noted facts about Dr. Kerr 1. African queen release 2. first to ship frozen bee semen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:17:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <002401c2604c$1e264240$7f8674cc@w2n5p1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:19 PM 9/19/02 -0400, you wrote: >I have a Beekeeper who is looking for a video describing pollen and its >benefits. Does anyknow of a video she might try? I don't know of any videos, but it is covered in several books and the following page summarizes many of the claims pretty well: http://www.naturallynewzealand.com/beePollen.html -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:29:54 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I have been unable to find a thermostat for a furnace which goes > from 40 F. to 100 F. Take one of the old-style round Honeywell thermostats, remove the cover, and look at the base of the shaft that turns when you turn the knob. You will notice that a "wing" extends from the shaft, and stops the knob from being turned lower than about 42 F or higher than about 88 F. DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE DEVICE!!!! You are sure to break it. Simply use an X-Acto knife, and shave off the edge(s) of this wing. The mercury-filled bulb and bimetallic spring will still function as expected, and you can clearly expect operational accuracy beyond 88 F, but you will have to use a thermometer to find the exact 100 F setting. This is not the best thermostat in the world, and a programmable unit would be much nicer, but to get 100 F, you will likely have to go to a supplier of "industrial controls", and pay a fortune. As for keeping the pipes from freezing, I'd apply the electrical "heater tape" to the pipes, and insulate the heck out of them rather than try to heat the whole area. Insulation is cheaper than any fuel, and you do not need much heat to keep pipes from freezing. Another approach would be to install cut-offs and drain the pipes in winter. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Robo-Crops, Beekeepers, and Political Agendas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann recently forwarded along several items concerning genetically-modified crops, and the "amazing discovery" that bees will forage distances of several kilometers, ignoring the several-hundred meter "buffer zones" around plantings of Oilseed Rape (or "Canola", as it is called in the US and Canada). I think beekeepers should worry less about "where you stand", and much more attention to "who is trying to stand next to you" on this issue. I'm going to say some less-than-charitable things about "environmentalists", so I should point out that I am a card-carrying, long-standing member of the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and The Nature Conservancy. I am speaking as someone who has been a foot solider in "the environmental movement" for decades. I have seen how both environmentalists and their opponents are forced to simplify the debate for the consumption of those who set public policy to the point where complex science is represented by cartoon-like propaganda from both sides of the debate. I cannot lay blame at the feet of anyone except the makers of public policy who allow themselves to be influenced by sloganeering. I cannot blame any participant in the debate for using every tactic available to them in their efforts to achieve what each side feels is "for the general good". But!!! The phrase "GM-Contaminated Honey" is an indication that beekeepers are being co-opted by groups with political agendas that may not be compatible with the best interests of beekeepers. This is not to say that things like genetically-modified Canola are not valid issues of concern for beekeepers. Beekeepers have a stake in such issues, but we need to insure that we do not let others do our talking for us. Neither side of this "debate" appear to be our friends. My point is that some "environmentalists" appear to be setting up beekeepers and organic farmers to be "victims" of "Robo-crops". While they would certainly cry crocodile tears for someone who finds his crop "contaminated" from foraging on GM plants, I'd bet my hive tool that they would produce more press releases than tears. The majority of environmentalists don't have crops to sell, and are perfectly willing to sacrifice your crop and your livelihood in their attempts to affect political change. They may even adopt a battle cry of "save the beekeepers", hoping that no one notices that they are the sole source of claims that honey might be "contaminated", and that such "contamination" is a concern. They honestly feel that they see a "larger issue", and feel that they hold the moral high ground. In their attempts to achieve a larger "victory", they can (and have, and will) carpet-bomb entire sectors of innocent agricultural producers to take out one "threat to the environment". They will incite "food scares". They will exaggerate risks. They feel that they must do so, since well-reasoned and accurate statements of concern are often ignored by makers of public policy, forcing advocates to "up the ante" simply to be heard. Here's the progression of steps: 1) It is inherently obvious to even the casual observer that bees will not respect any of the "buffer zones" imposed in an attempt to prevent cross-pollination of GM-crops with non-GM-crops. 2) But neither does the wind. Bees are not required to make these "buffer zones" seem silly. Wind alone will distribute small amounts of pollen, and has been shown by a number of studies to result in low levels of cross-pollination. One recent large study has been reported on in both "Science" and "Nature". http://www.nature.com/nsu/020624/020624-10.html 3) One would think that rational discussion would focus on the wind, leaving bees and beekeepers as a minor footnote in the controversy. But the agenda of any "political action group" is to play "brinkmanship" on all fronts, promoting a view that complete disaster lurks behind whatever they oppose. One cannot blame them, as this seems to be the only thing that ever "works". Blame elected officials who ignore less. 4) Let's assume for a moment that governments act "reasonably", listens to the environmental concerns, and decide to increase the buffer zones. A rational "solution" would be to ban all beekeeping around GM-crops at a distance sufficient to insure that bees will neither gather nor spread the GM-pollen at issue. (We must assume that they will not instantly ban the GM-crops, since they have not done so in the face of fierce opposition.) 5) On the other hand, let's assume that governments ignore the environmental concerns, and do nothing. The only move left to the environmental political action groups will be to try and make the public aware of "the risk". The easy and obvious "risks" are organic food that is "contaminated", and honey that is "contaminated" from being "too close" to GM crops. 6) These public policy debates invariably "ratchet up", and somewhere along the way, the hard science is replaced by shrill arguments. This happens because both "sides" feel that they are "right", and neither has any chance of changing each other's point of view. So it is a certainty that the progression (1) to (5) will happen, if we allow it. So, the organic farmers and beekeepers become the "poster children" for the environmental lobbyists, and news of their "plight" is spread far and wide by the environmental lobby. In fact, beekeepers might even be viewed as "part of the problem", in that bees are clearly efficient vectors for the spread of pollen. The net short-term result is that a "food scare" has been created in the attempt to gain control over agricultural policy. In the process, all crops are tarred with the same brush, so even a beekeeper who can prove a lack of contamination will be hurt by a "food scare". Note that (4) and (5) leave beekeepers with loose-loose options, in that they either find themselves regulated "out of business", due to a lack of suitable hive locations, or they may find their crops unmarketable. My suggested strategy in light of all this is "The Bob Dylan Gambit": "the answer, my friend is blowin' in the wind". Beekeepers need to point out that wind is a universal phenomena, while bees are much less "universal". While it may be possible for environmentalists to point at your honey crop as "contaminated", the problem would still exist even if bees did not exist, so dragging bees into the discussion does not enhance understanding of "the problem", and poses a risk to your ability to continue to be a beekeeper. Beekeepers don't need bad publicity, and we do not need to become poster children for someone else's cause. We certainly do not need to suffer collateral damage from someone else's propaganda. The most ironic part of the whole situation is that we would be forced to cite studies that show "no health risk" from consumption of GM crops to sell our honey, which plays into the hands those who support GM crops. So, what happens after what comes next? Think about it. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jc Haring Subject: Fall feeding--how much is too much MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all I'm in New York (Long Island) and obtained 70 and 170 lbs from my two hives this season. Population was unbalanced in early spring when we get our strongest flow but is more even now. When I pulled I was concerned about the relative lack of honey in the two deep bodies on each hive, so began feeding 2:1 sugar syrup a couple of weeks ago. Each hive took down the first two gallons (w/ Fumidil) quickly and I kept feeding. Just put gallon #5 on each. I'm replacing every other day and they're emptying out the gallon pails in about 30-36 hours. It's been warm here--at or near 80 each day. The ladies have been good this year and I want them strong for the winter. Will happily give them all they want/need. Someone stated a few weeks ago that they'll stop taking it when they've had enough, but there must be a limit. How much is too much??? Chris Haring Mt. Sinai, NY Get the weather and visit the bees on the live BeeCam at www.msweather.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:31:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY In-Reply-To: <000d01c260b2$97e35b20$aac686d9@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000d01c260b2$97e35b20$aac686d9@default>, Harry Goudie writes >The public are >beginning to become clued up as to what goes on and are starting to >discriminate which product they will buy. I think you and almost all the anti brigade overplay this. I am very rarely asked these kind of questions by customers, and even then they are not all seeking to discriminate against the product, they are just interested. FWIW, Robt is making much of this story when in fact it is actually very minor, and being stirred up, in particular by the Sunday Times. The beekeeper in question has actually been retained by the paper and is banned from talking to anyone else and all statements are prepared or vetted by the paper (this info direct from the tv journalist). They believe there is some kind of payment deal for a good anti GM story involved here. The Television and newspaper people had to search hard to find the people who would give them the kind of soundbites they were after. When this story broke I was contacted by four newspapers and offered a tv interview slot, but they were ONLY interested if I was going to say something newsworthy. In other words I had to say how bad this was and how much of a threat it all is to our health and our markets. One even had the quote ready. One of the papers admitted he had been phoning bee people since morning, this was at lunch time, trying to get a quote to fit the story, without success. This is simply a deliberate scare, and one being seized upon by certain parties in order to stir it up. I know what endangers my living more. I fear the scaremongers and their agendas more than I fear the crops. They have infinite capacity to ruin beekeepers, and the zeal of a cause which in their eyes will make the mayhem they could cause all worthwhile. I am not pro GM, and probably would prefer if it had never come to pass. However, it has, and now we have to live with it. Preferably in an atmosphere devoid of hysteria. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:39:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Posting on FGMO Discussion List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All This is a recent posting on the FGMO Discussion List which may be of interest. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland >Hello Mark and others. > I am kind of sitting back and reading your comments. All of you are doing an excellent job explaining how, when etc. > I would like to add that I have worked with FGMO alone, nothing else for the last 7 plus years and that it has proven to be an effective, non-contaminating, safe and economic alternative method of treatment fo bee mites. > I have found that FGMO works best when applied together in the form of fog and in the form of emulsion. Best of all the emulsion is the key to treatment during the winter to keep the mite population down. > Yes, please keep asking questions should you have any, because they help to bring out doubtful points that people may have. >Best regards. >Dr. Rodriguez > >_____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The mysterious Dr. Warwick Kerr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison asked about Dr. Kerr. "Mysterious"? Nah. Use of an industrial-strength web spider (we don't call it the "Information Supercollider" for nothing, ya know...) for all of 36 seconds indicates that: 1) His full name is Warwick Estevam Kerr. 2) He is 79. 3) He is still in Brazil 4) He is doing OK for 79 - Here's a very recent photo of him, dating from August 2002: http://www.inpa.gov.br/jornaldarede/images/hex13.gif He's the guy on the far left. a) He was, until recently, the Director of the Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazonia in Brazil but has since retired. b) Before that, he was apparently president of the State University of Maranhao in Brazil. c) Back in 1981, Dr. Kerr spoke to the Western Apicultural Society in California, so there must be a few people in California who have spoken directly with him. He appears to be alive and kicking, and likely reachable through the Institute. Try e-mailing Adarcyline Rodrigues (amr@inpa.gov.br) But how good is your Portuguese? :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ivan McGill Subject: Re: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello All, >I have been unable to find a thermostat for a furnace which goes from 40 F. >to 100 F. >I found one a few years ago which goes from 50F. to 90F which I have been >using. >I need the extra 10F for drying honey and being able to reduce the temp by >10F. will save fuel costs over the winter as the room only needs to be warm >enough to keep water pipes from freezing. >Thanks in advance! >Bob I got all my thermostats from a place that sells fans, thermostats and other controls. If you look in the phone book yellow pages under electrical equipment. That is where I got mine. For drying honey have ever tried a dehumidifier? I have used one for almost 20 years, when we get a wet fall. I know other beekeepers that also use them. Not a big expensive one but a house size. You would be surprised how2 much moisture they will take out of a room. Ivan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:58:01 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Tamas Subject: Apiguard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I had the chance to treat my bees with APIGUARD for Varroa this year.Can = somebody tell me the easy way to count the efficacy of the drug? In the same time can somebody tell me how can I see if the Varroa become = resistent to a drug :Varachet-romanian drug for Varroa. George ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:32:17 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For drying honey have ever tried a dehumidifier? I have used one for almost >20 years, when we get a wet fall. I know other beekeepers that also use >them. Not a big expensive one but a house size. You would be surprised how2 >much moisture they will take out of a room. Superior in every way is a fan c.100W bringing air down from the attic - The effect in daytime is equivalent to a heat-pump with COP 10-50. I can attach a tech paper as RTF. R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 06:19:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The customer may not always be rational but he is always right. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:49:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Murray McGregor" To: wrote > I think you and almost all the anti brigade overplay this. I don't think I belong to a "brigade". In fact I feel quite alone and isolated in my views I just try to tell people the truth and not deceive them. These days this would seem to be an uncommon approach with many beekeepers trying to cover up failings in their product. In my opinion these people are guilty of deceiving the public >I am very > rarely asked these kind of questions by customers, and even then they > are not all seeking to discriminate against the product, they are just > interested. I only started selling my honey a couple of weeks ago and I have had to discuss GM contamination of honey on at least four occasions. This is the first year I have ever had this sort of discussion. I got the impression that the customers were looking for assurance that the honey was not contaminated. I don't know whether they would have bought the honey if it had been contaminated It seems to me that hiding the truth and deceiving the public has got GM companies a bad reputation and it would seem that some beekeepers are intent on following their example. Let's not have any cover ups. Keep beekeeping pure and honest. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02-Aug-02 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:41:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob Try Graingers. They have quite a selection of thermostats. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:53:37 -0700 Reply-To: mejensen@pacbell.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Honey bears In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does any body have the name of flat panel honey bear makers besides Parker Plastics? I would really like to find a source for large quantities of recyclable flat panel bears (#1's or 2's) in quantities of 5000 or more. Brushy Mountain has some interesting ones in their catalog, and I would like to find out who makes those. Parker sells some #2's but they are more expensive wholesale than the retail price of the low density flat panel bears that Brushy Mountain sells. Parker's cheapest flat panel bears are about $.14 ea., and their recyclable ones about $.19 ea. Brushy Mountain has the flat panel bears in boxes of 250 for about $.17 ea. Does anyone know who makes those? Thanks. Mark Jensen mejensen@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:19:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a wooden toolbox full of bees that was given to me a year ago in spring after overwintering at its original site. It became a nuisance and the farmer asked me to take it away. I took it home and ever since have just enjoyed it. I've never done anything but look at it. It has never been treated for anything in any way. They have now lived at my door for two summers. I know they have had some varroa, because one day last year, I saw a varroa mite on a bee at the entrance. The mite was quite obvious, sitting on the back of the bee. Since then, I've often looked closely at the bees coming, going and patrolling the entrance, and never seen any more mites. I'm wondering -- since I've heard that the mites can hide between the segments of the abdomen and be almost invisible. Is that true? If there are phoretic mites, should I not be seeing them? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:36:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY Comments: cc: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Harry Goudie wrote: >I don't think I belong to a "brigade". In fact I feel quite alone and >isolated in my views I just try to tell people the truth and not deceive >them. These days this would seem to be an uncommon approach with many >beekeepers trying to cover up failings in their product. In my opinion >these people are guilty of deceiving the public I could not agree more. We had a most interesting interchange recently on the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List when attempts were made against all of the evidence to suggest that varroa did not necessarily develop resistance to synthetic chemicals. I am of the opinion that if we tell the truth we can expect fewer problems than if we embark on deception. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:48:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa Hi I find that *looking* at bees is a very poor way of finding mites. Colonies with high mite loads *appear* to have very few on their backs. That is why I prefer to ether roll them. I can only assume the mites are hided on the bees, like you say. This summer, however, I saw a hive that was so heavily infested there were a couple of mites clearly visible on the back of the queen. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:54:58 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > I've heard that the mites can hide between the segments of the > abdomen and be almost invisible. > > Is that true? If there are phoretic mites, should I not be seeing them? The literature told us that the varroa hides in the segments and here in Australia we certainly used this information to good advantage. We had a case of bees, legally imported through our Quarantine Station, that had varroa mites found on a couple of escorts. They were in the segments. Dr. Denis Anderson has said that when you think about varroa and their natural hosts, Apis cerana, the varroa has to hide to survive. The cerana do have grooming behavior where they get rid of the mites. He has also said the difference in size between destructor and jacobsoni could have something to do with the size of the cerana that they are specific to. The size of the space under the segments allows the varroa to hide and not be pulled out. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:21:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen, Since moving away from chemical treatment for mites and onto small cell, I have been a daily observer or fallen and phoretic mites. I used a plexiglass inner cover and could observe the bees crawling on the top bars and those crawling on the plexiglass to see both sides of bees in the hives. Before using small cell most of the mites would be found on the bottom of the bee between the first couple of segments on the front of the abdomen. They could almost completely fit underneath them but were obvious once at seeing a few. Very seldom where they observed on the top side of the bee and when seen there were usually on the thorax late in the winter. With the small cell bees things were different. The mites would be located in one of four locations. The first was on the front edge of the abdomen beneath the area where the bees wing would cross over it. The second was on the bottom of the abdomen almost directly beneath and slightly to the rear of those on the top side of the bee. They definitely prefer the bottom side. With one exception I never saw a single mite between the segments of a small cell bee. The only exception was very late in winter when some of the bees seemed to resemble their larger cell sisters in size and I saw a couple on mites between the segments on a single bee. I daily monitored a hive throught it's collapse in late winter. Recent studies suggest that bees sampled at the entrance will have 4 to 5 times fewer mites than the actual rates inside the hive. So I guess it must be a numbers game. At that rate with a 5% infestation a person might have to see a single mite or two in a hundred bees and if missed might have to look at another hundred. After watching hives collapse from varroa the external symptoms of the bees themselves are a more obvious indicator. Chewed wings, crawlers, varroa feces in the cells, and chew pupa are some of the most obvious to look for without actually counting the mites. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:03:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Resistance to Bayvarol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All I sent the following post to the Irish beekeeping Discussion List. A discussion on the inevitably or otherwise of resistance recently occurred on this List. Tom Barrett took the view that resistance was inevitable in view of the fact that resistance to Apistan and Coumaphos is now in the USA, resistance to the former is widespread and resistance to the latter is growing. And nearer home resistance to Bayvarol is now in the UK, and as we will see later in this e mail it is spreading. The fact that this resistance may be due to improper use of the acaricides gives no comfort since the mite is, in a manner of speaking, merely exploiting one of the many weaknesses of human nature. Ruary Rudd wrote: >Norman Carreck has to some extent dealt with this earlier when he said >"Development of resistance when the products are used according to the >manufacturer's instructions is not actually inevitable" James Kilty then wrote: With a great deal of respect for Norman's support of this list and the wealth of information he has provided us, this statement would be strongly disputed by other experts. It seems to be the way of nature that life survives as long as it can in the most adverse circumstances. The adaptation of mites to single chemical miticides like the synthetic pyrethroids happens in a little over 10 years as was well known to the manufacturers and to all agriculturists who depend on pesticides. The treadmill can be broken by (amongst other approaches) minimalist applications of different treatments, breeding resistant stock or bringing in the pests' selected natural enemies that can live harmoniously with the environment they are brought into. Hence attempts to use natural substances some of which have a mix of active ingredients that work in different ways, research into fungi, breeding traits like hygiene, SMR, and grooming damage into bees, and such as FGMO fogging and accompanying emulsion. I am very unhappy with the response to resistance (now within 5 miles of my home) using stronger chemicals. We do have our home-grown Apiguard and a few other tricks that could be used. The report last week of the Regional Bee Inspector had resistant mites in Camborne North and South and the Lizard: 3 10km squares in a row spanning most of my apiaries. This autumn I have managed to bring several local beekeepers into a project to seek colonies that damage mites, so far involving 132 colonies. The long term aim is to flood the whole area with drones that carry helpful genes, by continuously selecting and breeding. Not a short term measure, but, coupled with less toxic approaches to reduce mite numbers below a colony-lethal number, likely to produce a stable result. Once we have enough data I will present details of mite falls and % damage. -- James Kilty Tom Barrett then wrote: Can James say what these stronger chemicals are please? Am I correct in saying that the UK authorities have or did have some procedures in train to attempt to ring fence the resistant mites, and do I understand from the above that the resistant mites are spreading? James Kilty responded as follows: >Can James say what these stronger chemicals are please? I will check. >Am I correct in saying that the UK authorities have or did have some >procedures in train to attempt to ring fence the resistant mites, Monitoring carefully and comprehensively was the best they could do as far as I can see. Bee Inspectors were taking samples everywhere they went and doing their standard test. It's not something you can ring fence. Ø and do I understand from the above that the resistant mites are spreading? Ø Indeed. To places discontinuous on the map. In other words it seems to be beekeepers or as Murray suggested, cars containing one or two bees with resistant mites. Nothing would surprise me. One chap boasted about getting swarms and bringing them home when varroa first arrived in the area of the swarms and had not arrived in the home area. Guess what! Heather beekeepers dispersed it around the country so would do the same for resistant mites. There's plenty of OSR further east and I know beekeepers moved hives from west to east for it. Summary: There would thus appear to be incontrovertible evidence that resistance to Bayvarol is spreading in the UK, in exactly the same way that the non resistant mites spread. It would also seem to be the case that stronger synthetic chemicals are in use in the UK to combat the resistant mites, but this has not yet been confirmed. We await comment on this. I believe that the time has come to take this resistance problem seriously. We should take a leaf out of New Zealand's book and urgently put in place plans to disseminate information on non synthetic chemical treatments widely. It would be a great pity, and those organisations in charge of beekeeping in these islands, would not be easily forgiven by beekeepers, if we ended up in the situation which now obtains in America, with resistance to every synthetic chemical they can throw at the mite and seriously polluted hives as a consequence. And the guilt of the beekeeping associations will not be diminished by virtue of the fact that they had two headlines, one from America (how not to do it), and the other from New Zealand (how to do it), and both were ignored. Comments from beekeeping associations in Ireland (FIBKA) and the UK please? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:28:21 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: GM crop taints honey two miles away, test reveals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tainted Honey? As Gershwin wrote, "'Taint Necessarily So". Murray McGregor pointed out in another thread: > it is... ...being stirred up, in particular by the Sunday Times. The > beekeeper in question has actually been retained by the paper and is > banned from talking to anyone else and all statements are prepared or > vetted by the paper (this info direct from the tv journalist). They > believe there is some kind of payment deal for a good anti GM story > involved here. When a respected newspaper prints a headline that gives the misleading impression of a threat to the food supply, citing a "test" performed at its own request, one can only expect future headlines about traffic fatalities, with articles explaining that employees of the Sunday Times pushed the victims in front of moving vehicles as part of a newspaper-sponsored "study". British beekeepers have voluntarily taken exceptional care to avoid the potential for contamination of honey. The British Bee Farmers Association advised all members to keep all hives 4 miles from all GM trial sites in 1999, and increased their suggested "safe distance" to 6 miles in 2000. British honey is not "contaminated" by GM-pollen. The only contamination appears to be the taint of advocacy in "news" reported by The Sunday Times. British Bee Farmer Association statement on "buffer zones": http://www.beefarmers.co.uk/press-release.htm jim