From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:48:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,ADVANCE_FEE_4,AWL,IP_LINK_PLUS,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2914909D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoY5010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0209D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 182172 Lines: 4138 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: greg roody Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning In-Reply-To: <001701c26020$13329fe0$491dfea9@dcampbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pretty topical thread given I got stung THROUGH a pair of leather gloves today. They are the kind that go up to your elbows and are very thick. I was removing Apistan strips, so the hive was a little worked up, but not what I would call angry, when all of a sudden this one bee darts over, digs into the glove finger with everything she had, and zinnnng....... She got me right on the knuckle through the glove. The glove was tight because I was holding the hive tool in that hand, but KI never thoughtthe y could get through one of those. Oh well, it's probably the last one anyway till next season. There isn't much left to do this year ,,,,,,,, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:04:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fall feeding--how much is too much MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris, > Just put gallon #5 on each. >Someone stated a few weeks ago that they'll stop taking it when >they've had enough, but there must be a limit. How much is too >much??? Overfeeding is certainly better than underfeeding. As a new beekeeper starting out you need to error on the heavy feeding side. You should by now be able to heft the boxes and get a general idea of the winter stores. Overfeeding can cause all brood rearing to shut down as the bees plug the brood nest preventing the queen from raising brood which lets you go into winter with mostly old worn out worker bees. Overfeeding can stop the storage of fall pollen for a early spring start up because of lack of cells to store fall pollen. I am nit picking a bit as many commercial beekeepers around the world open feed and strong hives do all of the above and most hives still seem to come out of winter ok. Starvation on the other hand costs money and labor and the blame goes to the beekeeper in *all* cases except for the cluster not being able to move to the stored honey (which happens). I try to give all hives a gallon of syrup after the supers are removed and then let the hives store pollen and raise the young brood for winter. When I feel brood rearing needs to shut down I feed heavy all hives to light for winter. Syrup is money to say nothing of time spent. Feeding bees as you have done discourages the bees to collect on their own many times. Perhaps there is simply no pollen and nectar to collect as is the case in several parts of the U.S.this year because of the drought. When beekeeping is a hobby and time is not a issue open up the hive and see the areas of honey/syrup storage. Looking is better than hefting if one has the time to spend. Try to get the top box full of honey as the bees move up over the winter. Many hobby beekeepers arrange the winter nest for the bees. simple method many use: I see no problem with putting the stored honey/syrup above the brood nest when using two deeps. Brood nest down. Leave enough honey/syrup down below on both sides of the brood nest to hold the bees till all brood has emerged and brood rearing has ceased. Hobby beekeepers which arrange the brood nest for their bees to winter hardly ever run into the bees moving away from the stores and dying of starvation. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:45:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter, Peter wrote: This summer, however, I saw a hive that was so heavily infested > there were a couple of mites clearly visible on the back of the queen. You have posted several times this summer of observing heavy infestations of varroa. Are these hives in a experiment or is your method of control having resistance problems? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 08:58:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa Hi I had very heavy mite loads in the middle of August, after having treated with Apistan in April. We used coumaphos in fall of 2000 & spring 2001. That fall mites were acceptable, so we went back to Apistan fall 2001 & spring 2002. It hasn't worked, so one wonders: 1) did the coumaphos not knock out resistant mites? 2) did we pick up resistant mites from other hives? 3) did environmental conditions cause this rapid build-up? We were hearing from other beekeepers that mites were heavy by the end of July so we decided to examine all our hives for mites. By the way, we do keep a dozen or so hives untreated during the season. The mite loads on these were not higher than the treated ones, so it makes for a lot of head scratching. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 08:41:02 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Fall feeding--how much is too much MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jc Haring wrote: The ladies have been good this year and I want them strong for the winter. Will happily give them all they want/need. Someone stated a few weeks ago that they'll stop taking it when they've had enough, but there must be a limit. How much is too much??? > Bees need clustering space for wintering. That space is not just between the combs, but also "in" the cells of the combs. If you fill every nook and cranny of the hive with syrup, that clustering space is gone. The syrup acts like a heat sink, and makes it harder for the bees to heat their cluster. So, how much is enough...or too much? How much feed do colonies on Long Island need for winter? Is 60 lbs enough? Or maybe 70? In northern Vermont, bees need 70 or 80 lbs to survive the winter, and early spring. Try weighing your colonies. I use a package scale. Tip the hive sideways. Place the scale under the raised side of the hive. Tip the hive up onto the scale. Read the weight. Feed a gallon of thick syrup for each 10 pounds they are below your target weight. I have found that a two story colony of bees, populous but with no honey, weighs 70 lbs. Say your colony weighs 120 lbs. If your target weight is 130 (60 lbs of stores) then you need to feed 1 or 2 gallons of feed. Etc....If the hive is more than two stories, adjust your target weight accordingly....10 pounds or so per extra box. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 07:54:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susan Jordan Subject: Honey reaction question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed HI everyone, I recently received this message from a woman that came across my webpage. I was just wondering if any of you have heard of this or if drug reactions happen with honey. Thanks. Susan Jordan Ontario, Canada >Recently, while on holidays, I purchased some honey from a local farmer >which was unpasteurized. Have you ever heard of a person having a drug >reaction to your honey, seeing as it too is unpasteurized? I know it >sounds like an odd question, but I have had some drug reactions lately and >after going to the doctor this week, he suggested that it could be food >related. I've been searching for an answer, and really the only food that >I can pinpoint that is recently new to my diet, is this unpasteurized >honey. It's an interesting thought anyway. > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:09:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Source for flat panel bears Try Quality Container. 734-481-1373. However, 5000 bears is not very many and they will most likely decline to sell direct for this size sale. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:16:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning Comments: To: Peter Borst HI Medical latex are fine too and cost effective . Tan/ green suits are manufatured by Sherriff. See advertising in bee culture. I never use leather gloves any more . Too expensive and wear out just the same. Too clumsy . Tolerance depends on the individual. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:50:17 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Need 40F. to 100F. furnace thermostat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try dealers for furnaces. Thermostats will be a part of the "package" EDW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:22:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey reaction question quote: >I've been searching for an answer, and really the only food that >I can pinpoint that is recently new to my diet, is this unpasteurized >honey. Pasteurization DOES NOT make food non-allergenic. Being allergic to peanuts most of my life, I know that for me roasted peanuts are just as bad as raw ones. Allergies can come on suddenly, too, to foods or drugs one is already accustomed to. I ate peanut butter with impunity till I was eleven years old and quite suddenly became allergic. Others have reported sudden allergies to favorite foods. This person needs to read up on allergies, or talk to a specialist. Many doctors are not really equipped to deal with complex allergies. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:33:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Simple query - glove cleaning quote: "I was removing Apistan strips" Greetings I would suggest anyone handling pesticides invest in a separate pair of heavy nitrile gloves. I have a pair that goes up to my elbows. I use these for coumaphos, and while latex is probably adequate for Apistan, leather will absorb pesticides and hold them in contact with your skin long after the job is done. Of course, the strips can be removed with pliers, but rubber gloves would still be advisable. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter, I will offer an opinion. Peter wrote: > We used coumaphos in fall of 2000 & spring 2001. That fall mites >were acceptable, so we went back to Apistan fall 2001 & spring >2002. It hasn't worked, so one wonders: >1) did the coumaphos not knock out resistant mites? The coumaphos knocked the mites down to what your apparently considered acceptable. I believe the percentage left were highly resistant to fluvalinate. > 2) did we pick up resistant mites from other hives? What you describe has been happening all over the U.S. with those trying to rotate back to fluvalinate. Fluvalinate resistant mites were still around even when fluvalinate had not been used for three years. You could have picked up some fluvalinate resistant mites through drifting bees but unless a large amount of robbing was going on I doubt no. 2 is the answer. 3) did environmental > conditions cause this rapid build-up? I do not think so. I believe the varroa left after the coumaphos treatment were resistant to Apistan. Apistan has no effect in areas where fluvalinate resistant mites are. In fact many studies show varroa increases the same as no treatment at all. Several of my friends waited up to three years and tried to return to Apistan with the same result as Peter. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:41:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: GM taints Honey Crops.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/09/02 05:03:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << British beekeepers have voluntarily taken exceptional care to avoid the potential for contamination of honey. The British Bee Farmers Association advised all members to keep all hives 4 miles from all GM trial sites in 1999, and increased their suggested "safe distance" to 6 miles in 2000. British honey is not "contaminated" by GM-pollen. >> Last year a local (Dorset, UK) farmer did a GM crop trial in spite of much adverse publicity, public protest meetings and the like. Looking at the map and trhe address list of our members I reckoned that 17 of them kept bees within a 6 mile radius of the site. So we went to the farmer and he found the association a place where members could move their bees during the flowering period of the crop more than 6 miles away. Nobody used it. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:54:51 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: copying section of varroa bk In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom Barrett of Ireland wrote: >'Control of Varroa, A Guide for new >Zealand Beekeepers' ... is a brilliant source of info on all kinds of varroa >treatments. Quite a few disagree. Apart from its staggering sluggishness in production - consistent with all other official behaviour regarding what should have been viewed as a national emergency - it is admitted to contain only what was available on the internet. Contrary to what some cyberfanatics wish to believe, that does not give you the whole of accumulated knowledge! I am surprised anyone could say it is a source, let alone a brilliant one, on "all kinds" of varroa control. Several promising approaches are not given decent coverage. > There is an appendix in the book on 'Varroa Chemical resistance >test'. I would like to post this on the Federation of Irish Beekeeping >Associations website as a spreadsheet to remove the mathematics, and I am >wondering if anybody can give me an e mail contact where I can seek >permission to do this. > >I can find no e mail address in the book and snail mail to New Zealand would >take some time. A few days, usually; far longer delay is likely among the bureaucrats who then try to work out how they might get money from your request. I'd say just go right ahead - thus forcing them to help beekeepers as fast as possible (for the first time). I don't foresee any trouble as a result. Whatever this book is worth, make the most of it. R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:35 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: British Beekeepers Stand Firm on 6 Mile Limit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From the British Beekeepers Association (BBKA) National Bee Keeping Centre, Royal Agricultural Show Ground, Stoneleigh, Warwickshire CV8 2LG 02476 696679 For further information/comment contact: Glyn Davies (Chairman BBKA): 01364 652640 or 07711200911 Ivor Davis (Vice-Chairman BBKA): 01934 832825 or 07831 379222 British Beekeepers Stand Firm on 6 Mile Limit There is a clear need to maintain Honey quality Strong views and penetrating questions characterised today's (20 September) conference on GM Crops, Beekeeping and the Honey Industry. The meeting, organised by the BBKA was attended by over 80 beekeeping delegates from across the country, including members of the Scottish and Welsh Beekeepers Associations together with representatives of the UK honey industry (Bee Farmers Association and Honey Association). The meeting gave beekeepers an exclusive forum to discuss their concerns over impending commercial planting of genetically modified crops in the UK. They were able to put their views and question, at close quarters, representatives of DEFRA, ACRE, SCIMAC, the Agricultural Biotechnology Council and the Food Standards Agency. The importance and relevance of the 6-mile hive-exclusion zone was debated. The BBKA policy on this was strongly endorsed and that commercial planting should not occur pending the publication of further research. It was accepted that even with such a limit, it would not be possible to totally exclude any trace of GM pollen getting into honey. Debate of the acceptable definition of non-GM honey, which is clearly principally composed of nectar, suggested that the same criteria should be applied to honey as other food-stuffs, again the importance of the 6-mile limit to help to ensure this was underlined. Much needs to be done to reassure and convince the public of the benefits and safety of GM crops and all reasonable steps should continue to be taken to avoid involuntary introduction of GM pollen into honey. Glyn Davies, Chairman of the BBKA, pronounced himself satisfied that beekeepers had had their opportunity to discuss these important issues and to be heard by the nation's GM regulators; above all, beekeepers and workers in the industry wished to uphold the reputation of UK-produced honey for quality and wholesome-ness amongst consumers. Thomas Heck of the Honey Association said that their main concerns were that honey should be treated by legislators as a horticultural product and that in the event that GM-crops are commercialised, the current non-GM status of honey is accepted by retailers and consumers alike. John Randall of Leicestershire & Rutland Beekeepers said that the meeting had provided a good platform and a great many factual points relevant to beekeepers on the impact of GM crops. Further, that if we want to sell GM free honey, we must make sure that our hives are 6-miles or more from any GM crops to satisfy the public's concerns. Alan Johnson who with his wife farms 60 colonies of bees, felt that we had to open our eyes and understand the wider implications of GM material. If GM crops are licensed for commercial use it will be impossible to claim that honey is totally GM free. Ends immediate release 20 September 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:24:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Oxalic Acid for Varroa Treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently was introduced to the idea of vaporizing oxalic acid into the hive for varroa control. The archive do not mention much in this type of application. Has anyone on this list used this or has anyone had experience with it's effectives? Also is this something that would be legal to do in the US. Sincerely Garrett martin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: For GM free honey, is a six mile limit enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This article was recently posted on another list. It might interest people discussing the six mile limit. http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/02/04/honeybee.tracking.enn/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:07:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Varroa booklet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thanks to Robert Mann for his observations. I have now got the necessary permission to publish the Resistance Test. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:03:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Book recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hallo there. I am looking for a good book on queen rearing. I looked through the archives, but failed to find a recommendation that fits my needs perfectly. I want a book that is up-to-date, available in print and covers as much of queen rearing as possible, not just a beginners book or a "queen rearing simplified" kind of book. Please help me out. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:13:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Oxalic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Garrett Martin asks about Oxalic acid. If you go to the following website you can download an excellent booklet from New Zealand which gives (IMHO) excellent information on all varroa treatments including oxalic acid. http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/control-of- varroa-guide.pdf Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:52:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Quotes of previously posted material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. The entirety of the Guidelines can be found at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/guidelines.htm Aaron Mottis - thinking submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Book recommendation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I am looking for a good book on queen rearing.... 1. Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding, 1997 (published February 1998). Written by Harry Laidlaw and Rob Page. "Written for beekeepers who know little about genetics and geneticists who know little about beekeeping." 224 pages, softcover 118 photos and illustrations. 8.5 inch wide x 9.25 in high. Price $25.00. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:25:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: copying section of varroa bk In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1E41C88; boundary="=======2F9742B2=======" --=======2F9742B2======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1E41C88; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 09:54 23/09/2002 +1200, you wrote: >Tom Barrett of Ireland wrote: > >'Control of Varroa, A Guide for new > >Zealand Beekeepers' ... is a brilliant source of info on all kinds of varroa > >treatments. > > Quite a few disagree. > Apart from its staggering sluggishness in production - consistent >with all other official behaviour regarding what should have been viewed as >a national emergency > I am surprised anyone could say it is a source, let alone a >brilliant one, on "all kinds" of varroa control. Several promising >approaches are not given decent coverage. Robt I suggest that you may not realise how well served you are by your Agricultural Ministry in NZ compared with some other countries. I found the book interesting and valuable. Can you please point to a better, generally available, low cost publication giving more information? Regards Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK --=======2F9742B2======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1E41C88 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002 --=======2F9742B2=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > We used coumaphos in fall of 2000 & spring 2001. That fall mites were > acceptable, so we went back to Apistan fall 2001 & spring 2002. It hasn't > worked, so one wonders: 1) did the coumaphos not knock out resistant mites? > 2) did we pick up resistant mites from other hives? 3) did environmental > conditions cause this rapid build-up? When Cumophose resistance was discovered in Maine, Apistan was used after the Cumophose to see if there was any mite drop, and there was. But the mites were not killed. They did drop with the Apistan but were still alive so could reinfest (which is one reason I wanted to try screened bottom boards). So the mites were both Apistan and Cumophose resistant. I am not sure if they had the same period of non-apistan treatment as yours, but my guess is they did. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom Barrett wrote: > If you go to the following website you can download an excellent booklet > from New Zealand which gives (IMHO) excellent information on all varroa > treatments including oxalic acid. > > http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/control-of- > varroa-guide.pdf In my research (on the web) of Oxalic Acid drip treatments one thing that came across is the variability of concentrations of the acid used in treatment, along with the dosage. The only site which had any trials done that were fairly rigorous and where they trialed different dosages gave the following: Quote: RECOMMENDATIONS for the drip treatment with oxalic acid (Switzerland and Central Europe) Composition of the solution: 35 g oxalic acid dihydrate in 1 litre sugar syrup 1:1 Quantity: 30 ml for a small colony 40 ml for a medium colony 50 ml for a large colony This quantity corresponds to 5 – 6 ml for each occupied bee-space of a Dadant or Swiss hive. Unquote: This is less than the concentration recommended on the NZ site. It also looks like more frames are treated in the NZ recommendations. So the NZ recommendations are well above the dosage recommended for Europe. When greater concentrations were used in the trials in Europe more bees died (and they only got up to about 50gms). I have seen recommendations of 100 gms per liter (litre)! Of interest. If you use too little it is ineffective but too much kills bees. Since greater concentrations will weaken a hive going into a cold winter, you might get away with the greater concentrations in NZ but not Europe, since the bees will recover in a warm climate. Local climate plays an important role in treatment. So caveat emptor when it comes to using Oxalic Acid (drip treatment) and treating bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:48:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Looking for Phoretic Varroa quote:So the mites were both Apistan and Cumophose resistant. Now what are you doing? pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:14:14 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: E Ann's greatest hits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit l0 Reasons Not to Grow GE Crops Dr. E. Ann Clark, Guelph University, Canada http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/10reasons.htm Risks of GE in agriculture http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/risks.htm Environmental risks of Genetic Engineering in Field Crops http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/naec.htm Environmental Risks of GM: Why you should take them seriously http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/riskassessment.htm Who is going to pay the externalised cost of GMO’s? http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/starlink.htm Can You Afford GM Agriculture? http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/asilomar.htm Pesticidal (GM) crops and organic farming http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/nz2020.htm Food Safety of GM Crops in Canada: Toxicity and Allergenicity http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/safety.htm GMO’s and the global backyard: what’s an organic farmer to do? (Professor E. Ann Clark, Guelph University, Canada) http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/orgfarm.htm Genetic Engineering: Risks and Opportunities for Organic Farmers http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/efao.htm On the Implications of the Schmeiser decision http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/research/homepages/eclark/percy.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What ever happened to Formic Acid gel packs for mite control. I thought it had promise and the Department of Agriculture liked it too. West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:28:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid In-Reply-To: <3D8F0971.90306@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" >Bill Truesdell wrote about dosages for aoxalic acid dripping treatments (which i will not quote). I have read reports and recommendations here in Sweden. Different dosages of oxalic were compared and the recommended percentage is 3.5% in a 50/50 mix of sugar and water. 4.2% percent was also tested. This was even more effective on the mites, but resulted in weaker colonies in the following spring. The recommendation on how much oxalic syrup to drip is 20 ml for weak colonies, 25 for medium and 30 for strong ones. This kind of treatment kills 85-95% of the mites in a broodless colony (i can present the precise figures if anyone is interested). I suppose the higher percentages will only work if the bees are flying all the time, which they obviously won't be here because of cold weather. It is essential that the bees have at least a few days of flying weather after the treatment. Spending all winter with the oxalic syrup in their stomach is not good (probably fatal). /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:13:59 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apiguard In-Reply-To: <000a01c26133$ded320c0$3b67e9d5@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, You would have needed counts of varroa falling before and during the Apiguard treatment to make an assessment of the efficacy. A second acaricide such as Apistan or another reliable product could then be used after the Apiguard treatment is finished, to check for additional mite fall. If you haven't made mite counts before and during the Apiguard treatment then you can only get a very rough idea of the mite infestation today. In place of a second acaricide treatment you could try an ether roll test of adult bees or drone uncapping to check for residual mites. These methods may give an impression of the remaining infestation. The Apiguard should have given reasonable control of varroa mites so you should not expect to see too many in the colony. Best regards, Max PS: What is the active ingredient in Varachet and how is it used? Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK tel. +44 (0)1256 473177 fax +44 (0)1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:55:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Be Informed on Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call 1-763-658-4193 (in the USA) before you sell your honey too cheap. Also, if you have information on honey movement, sales and prices, be prepared to record your contribution at the 'beep' after you listen to the report. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:43:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Banding hives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter asked: But -- do you use one or two straps per hive (you didn't really say). 1 strap, around bottom, up sides, over the top is sufficient, especially with the ratchets straps. Be sure to center the straps (front to back). Otherwise, the strap acts like a pivot, and the hive bodies may twist around because of the force applied either to the front or back of the boxes. Most of the ratchets straps can hold a ton or more weight, more than enough to bind the boxes together, including bottom boards and covers. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:54:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Address request In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for Douglas Whynott? If so, I would appreciate receiving same (to my personal address, please). Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:21:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Looking for phoretic varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/09/02 05:03:00 GMT Daylight Time,Peter Borst writes: << We used coumaphos in fall of 2000 & spring 2001. That fall mites were acceptable, so we went back to Apistan fall 2001 & spring 2002. It hasn't worked, so one wonders: 1) did the coumaphos not knock out resistant mites? 2) did we pick up resistant mites from other hives? 3) did environmental conditions cause this rapid build-up? >> Although Coumaphos is in a different chemical group to Apistan, the fact that bees have already evolved resistance to one chemical may mean that mites have been selected for that have the most rapid adaptability to any chemical that is applied. I understand that the usual mechanism for resistance to Apistan (out of several possible ways) is to select mites that are able to de-toxify themselves better than their fellows. Put in human terms they are the ones with the most efficient kidneys. We know that mammalian kidneys can cope with all manner of poisons. Why should not the arachnid equivalent be equally clever? Thus Apistan resistant mites will have a head start when it comes to coping with Coumaphos. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:11:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: AHB article In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bill Mares requested (on 18 September): >Dear Dr. Wenner, Can you provide a link to your op ed piece about >AHB which you referred to in your Bee-L post today? Thank you. That piece appeared in the Santa Barbara News-Press. I believe their web site address is: www.sbnewspress.com However, I post here the text of my commentary (they printed essentially all of it): ******** Let's not lose perspective about bees Now that the Africanized Honey Bee (AHB) has arrived in Santa Barbara County, we might pause and place this new situation in perspective. Our familiar honey bee (European or EHB) has always had a revered status, due to its "industrious" behavior and benefit to human society in general. In California, especially, we have extolled the virtue of honey bees for pollination of almonds, avocados and stone fruits. Anyone who has backyard fruit trees usually unwittingly depends on honey bees to pollinate those flowers and insure a crop later in the season. We also relish the honey that bees produce and use their beeswax to good advantage. Beekeepers, both large and small, continue to provide a great and generally unrecognized service nationwide. Yet, they have encountered one obstacle after another, including pesticide poisoning and parasitic mites that kill their colonies. Experienced beekeepers know that a properly managed European bee colony poses no problem unless attacked. Despite the benefit, communities (including Santa Barbara) often have ordinances against beekeeping. The arrival of AHB just represents one more serious problem for beekeepers in our area. Anti-bee ordinances become voted in due to a rather natural "fear factor" about stings. However, death from honeybee stings is rather rare. On page 1230 of the 1992 book, The Hive and the Honey Bee, one finds that deaths due to motor vehicle accidents, murder, radon gas, and poisoning cause roughly,2500, 1000, 700, and 200 times, respectively, as many deaths in the U.S. as stings by honey bees. Yet, we do not ban vehicles. In the U.S. in 1997, dogs caused 11 deaths (nine of them children), 4.5 million injuries, and 334,000 hospital visits, but we do not indiscriminately eliminate dogs. Africanized honey bees are in this area from now on, but we can deal with the situation positively. Quite likely, few of the "wild" colonies in our area are Africanized; hence, bee colonies should not be routinely exterminated at this time. Such colonies should be considered "innocent until proven guilty." We need those bees for pollination of our fruit trees. On the other hand, any bee colony in an inappropriate cavity (e.g., in meter boxes, in trash cans, or along a pathway) should be eliminated, but only by professionals. We can also suspect that swarms occurring late in the season and occupying odd cavities might well be AHB. How great a problem do we face? AHB have now been in the Los Angeles Basin for several years (first record: West Covina in January of 1999), with remarkably few incidents since then, considering the large human population in that area. We have likely had AHB in our area for a couple of years but have had no stinging incidents. It's almost as if AHB have "mellowed out" once reaching Southern California. From reports, Africanized honey bee colonies pose little more danger to us than what we routinely experience with yellow jacket wasp colonies in this area. European bee colonies defend only the immediate area of their hive and do not normally pursue intruders a great distance. Both AHB and yellow jackets defend a much greater perimeter and pursue intruders quite some distance, as is well known by those who have stumbled onto a wasp nest. Individual wasps or bees of either type that visit flowers on your property or elsewhere normally pose no problem. Even in Tucson AZ, which has had AHB since 1993, bee attack severity and frequency have been much less of a problem than expected originally. For instance, a survey published in 2001, of attacks upon family pets in that city during 1998, revealed that dogs caused 114 deaths of pets, while bees were responsible for the deaths of only six pets. Perhaps a major reason for the low incidence of problems in Tucson has been the use of "swarm traps," specially designed containers fitted with lures and placed in convenient places to capture relocating swarms. Tucson now has a score of companies that install and check such traps weekly, thereby intercepting swarms that would otherwise have occupied an unsuitable cavity. I have maintained such swarm hives, with lures, in our backyard for several years and routinely catch one or two swarms per year. That process has kept bee colonies from entering the walls of our neighbor's houses or other cavities where they could pose a problem. Bees in swarm mode are remarkably docile, but I know of only one company in this area that is equipped to install and monitor such swarm hives. Santa Barbara County residents should now inform themselves about what we can now expect to experience and how to react to this new situation. The California Department of Food and Agriculture has a web site that one can access for some information about AHB: http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/phpps/pdep/ahb_profile.htm Locally, one can phone the Agricultural Commissioner's AHB Information Line at (805) 681-5601 or (877) 856-2337 toll-free, or (in unincorporated areas of the county) call the Santa Barbara Coastal Vector Control District at (805) 969-5050. A very up-to-date web site for the Commissioner's office has complete information about AHB for our area: http://www.countyofsb.org/agcomm/default.asp. None of the above is meant to downplay the fact that, for a few people (especially those allergic to bee stings), the situation can become serious. Call 911 in an emergency situation (where individuals get stung multiple times or develop life-threatening systemic allergic reactions). Above all, do not allow children to disturb bee or wasp colonies. In non-emergency situations and outside of incorporated areas, the Santa Barbara Coastal Vector Control District will provide service or referrals to residents in those areas of the county. Residents of the incorporated areas should contact their appropriate city offices or hire a private pest control operator for bee removal on their property (addresses and phone numbers available for those companies on the SB County Commissioner's web site). Most of all, we should support our local beekeepers, who serve as a solution rather than as constituting a problem. The presence of their colonies provides substantial competition against the establishment of Africanized bee colonies. That is, a conscientious beekeeper would know quite soon whether an Africanized swarm had invaded a bee yard and could eliminate obnoxious bees before they cause problems. By contrast, killing all "wild" colonies when found creates a vacuum into which AHB swarms can readily move. *********** Since that commentary appeared, I have received only positive comments from both beekeepers and other citizens. The above text may help others when AHB move into their area. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find it interesting that all who talk about Oxalic Acid treatments refer to some how putting it one the combs in some sort of a solution. The method I was made aware of is to use a crystal form and to vaporize it into the hive from the entrance. The treatment would last 3 minutes and then the entrance would be sealed off for 10 minutes. This type of treatment would supposedly cost $0.05 a hive. They are boasting a "up to 99% effectiveness" with 5.0G of Oxalic Acid. Here is the link to look at this info http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln. I was told by the manufacturer that Oxilic Acid is not registered in the US for varora treatment. But they did mention that they have many customers in the US. For what I would be interested in knowing. Is anyone familiar with this method? Garrett Martin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:17:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Club Web Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For all who are interested please take a look at our club web site. http://www.angelfire.com/va3/loudounbeekeepers/ Rodney Farrar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:01:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Heinrich Schmitt Subject: Varroa Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear beekeepers I found the BEE-L archives on the Internet and send you herewith the following web site. www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln I should not make any propaganda for this company. However, in my opinion, their products are really the best on the marked to get rid of the mites without bringing Chemicals in your beehives. The good Sid effect is, the mites cannot get resistant. I’m a beekeeper from Germany and I have bees since 1975 and found the first Varroa in 1981, when I had 24 colonies. I have quite a lot of information regarding the control of the Varroa Mite using Oxalic acid, but as I'm not a native English speaker, it's difficult for me to translate so many pages. If you are able to read German, you can go to the this website http://www.mellifera.de/oxneu.htm where you will find the latest news and test results. I was told by a Russian beekeeper who emigrated to Germany in 1991 and several others, that controlling the Varroa with Oxalic Acid Aerosol is very popular in Tajikistan and Kazakhstan where funds and options are very limited. It has been my experience, working with oxalic acid since the early 90s, that unlike Apistan and Cumaphos, there is no resistance problem. Oxalic acid is not a chemical treatment. It works by destroying the mite's suction ability, stopping it from feeding from the bee. Effectively, the mite starves to death. I have treated my bees with 2g Oxalic Acid 3 times in a row, using a vaporizer and the air pump from my air mattress. I bought the vaporizer and it came with all necessary instructions. I checked the drone cells during the year and it is hard to find a mite. There is always a re infection from beekeepers in the neighborhood so I treat my bees in the spring and fall. It takes only 3 minutes per hive. The Oxalic Acid Crystal should be available in paint and hardware stores, the use it for cleaning wooden decks from mildew and rust marks. There are companies on the internet where you can order the acid crystals. Don’t use the liquid acid form because there is water in it and you need the 100% pure and clean acid. http://www.chemistrystore.com/oxalic_acid.htm Many of my colleagues here in Germany were interested in Amitraz, from France only to discover that the mites developed a resistance to that also. Likewise, Gabon Strips used in Czechoslovakia. Thymol was and idea for a treatment but nobody is using this stuff anymore because of the bad results. With lots of luck you can catch 60% of the mites. Formic Acid can be difficult to work with as temperatures both inside and outside the hive as well as calculating the correct amount, all contribute to its effectiveness. An error in calculation can lead to a loss of up to 25% of the queens or to many mites left for the next season. 210 mites in the fall, followed by a mild winter and an early breeding start in the spring, can result in approx 210,000 mites at the end of the year. Several international beekeeping journals make mention of the Russian mite-resistant bees. They are in high demand and the Russian know it! If this was true, it would be the end of the mite problem but the fact is that we have been mites in Germany since 1976 and there is no escape. Some bee races have stronger cleaning impulses than others and that's the reason some can live with a certain amount of mites in a colony. All that is necessary is to take a swarm in an empty hive and treat them twice with 3g of Oxalic Acid aerosol 7 days apart. 14 days later and the only mites you'll find are dead ones. My major problem is re-infection by bees from nearby hives and drones from up to 40 km away. All the best with your bees Heinrich Schmitt from Mainz/Germany ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:58:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Beekeepers in or near Hot Springs AR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you live in or near Hot Springs AR, please email me privately. Wife and I are heading there for vacation this weekend and will be there a week. Would like to get together with 1 or more beekeepers from the area. Charles Harper Harper's Honey Farm Carencro LA labeeman@cox-internet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:03:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The method I was made aware of is to use a crystal form and to vaporize > it into the hive from the entrance. The treatment would last 3 minutes > and then the entrance would be sealed off for 10 minutes. This type of > treatment would supposedly cost $0.05 a hive. They are boasting a "up to > 99% effectiveness" with 5.0G of Oxalic Acid. My neighbours have a German bee magazine that had an in-depth article on this last winter. Apparently it does work very well. There was also a Canadian beekeeper who was spamming everyone on the topic back in the spring, and apparently trying to sell the appliance. I think that turned a lot of us off. The evaporation method is cheap and simple, and apparently very effective. Even one application has effects lasting for weeks, apparently due to the vapour condensing to small crystals that endure for a while. The honey contamination hazard is low, and -- for that matter -- I believe that when ingested in very small amounts, oxalic acid is not particularly harmful. It is however dangerous in larger amounts and higher concentrations, and can be dangerous to handle in bulk. I know it from using it in a heavy-duty automotive radiator flush, and from use as a special-purpose laundry bleach. It is also used to bleach wood, I believe. I have been sent some translations of some German documents that outline some scientific tests of the method, and think I am at liberty distribute them. If anyone cares to follow this up, I can look into it further (but I'm hoping that others will come forward here and save me the trouble). I think we all can see the hand writing on the wall as far as fluvalinate and coumaphos are concerned, and although having to find a replacement has its risks and inconveniences, I don't think any of us will grieve much to see them go. They were emergency stop-gap measures which saved the day for many of us while we got ready to learn more about less hazardous controls. I think vaporized oxalic may be one. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:13:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > I think vaporized oxalic may be one. I agree strongly! I have done nothing about it yet, but I have been considering it. Lets have some more on this topic, as it does not seem to crop up very often. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:32:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Varroa Mites In-Reply-To: <200209232301.g8NMnoTh029727@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Heinrich Schmitt wrote: >"I treat my bees in the spring and fall..." Heinrich, i find it very interesting that you treat with oxalic acid in the spring. I did not know this was possible. This is my second year with varroa and i'm pretty shocked by the way the mites have been able to build up in two summers even though i have treated my colonies (with oxalic acid dripping in the spring and by removing drone brood in the early summer). To be able to reduce the number of mites in the spring is essential. What time of the year do you do this? Does vaporized oxalic acid have a long-time effect (like Apistan) that makes up for the fact that oxalic acid does not kill varroa in sealed brood? Has it been proven that no oxalic acid ends up in the honey? Sincerely /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:32:09 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Comments: To: Tom Barrett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not the vapourised oxalic acid as faras my copy goes Ruary Rudd Tom Barrett Said from New Zealand which gives (IMHO) excellent information on all varroa > treatments including oxalic acid. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Formic Acid Comments: To: Mark Coldiron We are still using here in Canada and with great results. I cannot understand for the life of me, why it has not caught on South of the Border more. A fall and spring application (if needed), treat both Varroa and Tracheal mites with no fear of a resistance developing, unlike Apistan and Checkmite. Also, the residues from Formic acid are neglible, compared to Apistan/Checkmite strips. We have been using 4"x5"x.25" foam pads (the type of foam that florists use to mount floral arrangements in). The Foam pads are enclosed in shrink wrap, clear plastic with the bottom ends trimmed to expose the acid soaked pads to the air. The pads are are attached to the side of the uppermost Broad Box (open-end down: one pad per brood box) with staple gun and are left for twenty-one days (longer if the weather is lousy and cool, or there is a large infestation). After this period the dried-out pads are removed. Another benefit is the cost. To treat each two brood box colony with two pads, the cost is CDN$4.50, which is about US$2.75. A Miniscule expense when compared to the pharmaceutical chemical strips of Apistan and Checkmite. And don't forget, the Formic Acid treatment is acting against Varroa and Tracheal mites. No more menthol crystal expense! So what are the negatives, I have read that it is not as effective as the chemicals, but I have not read any hard facts supporting this arguement (perhaps someone can direct me to these details). I've also been told that newly emerged bees, can also be adversely affected by the acid, but I've noticed no effects as such with our hives (ie. increase in dead bees at entrance, etc), nor has brood rearing been interupted. I suspect that the biggest problem with Formic acid relates more to the big business of the pharmaceutical companies that produce Apistan and Checkmite. As Formic acid is a naturally occuring substance (ie. Ants), there is no way big business can charge the arm and leg prices they do for there patented chemical strips. Hence, an effective lobby has slowed the acceptance and spread of information on the treatment. Another, problem maybe that the profit margins in selling Formic Acid are far too slim, thus none of the major bee suppliers/retailers have any interest in marketing this cheap product, especially given the much fatter margins earned flogging the chemical strips. The gel packs and foam pads (that I believe are far superior) have solved the problem of how to deliver the formic acid treatment, the only problem that remains is getting the word out to general beekeeping population. If anybody else has any further information on Formic Acid (ie. treatment delivery, negatives, marketing, etc), please let me know. I'm still confounded as to why people are so reluctant to adopt the treatment. By the way, we've lost no hives to mites, have very low levels on all hives, healthy populations, good yields, and have developed no resistance to Formic acid treatments. Cheers, Mark Walker. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:42:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew W." Subject: Ordinance CHANGED for Castle Rock, CO to allow beekeeping! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is my first contribution to Bee-L in over a year so I'm making it a "good-news" post! Also I'd like to say "Hi" to old bee friends... -------- 9/23/2002 After spending several days collecting information and talking to numerous individuals with 'issues' (real & imaginary) regarding bees, a beekeeping ordinance banning bees within the city limits of Castle Rock, CO was overturned tonight. Although the issue was brought to council last October by another beekeeper (Paul Hendricks - Sunshine Honey Company) I'm pleased to say I helped carry the fight twice (study session and the vote) by burning the midnight oil and perfecting a set of reports to address 'funny' issues and questions brought up by council. Either the last 10-page report addressing bee concerns for the town or my hap-hazard speech, one of the two must have been received well because they voted 5 to 2 to allow beekeeping! Tough? You wouldn't believe the types of questions & opposition that was brought up by council members during the study session. It just took a little elbow grease and creative thinking/writing to bring 'objections' over to 'understanding'. Unfortunately the victory tonight is bittersweet. The council approved beekeeping without regard to zoning OR by lot size (biggie because they started the night with a 10 acre min) - but the one clause is that beekeeping will be allowed by "special review". Meaning anyone can protest the application. Fine? It would be and I had actually encouraged the idea that 'would-be' beekeepers get approval from adjoining land owners prior to placing a hive - but I just found out the application fee for any "Special Review" is $1,185.00! Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. Unbelievable? Seems there's a learning curve to this politics-stuff. Back to the drawing board! I would encourage ANYONE interested in changing their ordinances to stand up and be heard. I'll send out my legwork covering council, police and other objections to anyone interested in protesting their beekeeping ordinance. Matthew Westall - "E-Bees" - Castle Rock, CO (trying my best to walk in the footsteps of others...and at times venturing on my own) To George Imrie, Dick Allen, Arron Morris, Lloyd Spear (feel like I'm on stage at the emmy's?) and NUMEROUS others - this victory is yours too as I've learned so much from your contributions and questions to Bee-L.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:19:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Martin Subject: Travel: British Columbia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues, I will be traveling in British Columbia, Canada Wednesday, September 25 - Friday, October 4. If you are available my wife and I would like to stop by in our RV to say hi. We will not take too much of your time. We would like to briefly talk about our bees, your bees and shoot a few pictures. Please write ASAP if you are available with your location. Thank you, Richard and Debby Martin Martin Honey Farm, Inc. Longwood, Florida 32750 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 05:59:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: <200209240612.g8O65wTb011626@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Mark Walker wrote: > Tracheal mites with no fear of a resistance developing, unlike Apistan and > Checkmite. I am very puzzled by this. What are the grounds for the claims that the mites will never become resistant to formic acid or oxalic acid? I saw this claim in several posts about oxalic acid earlier today, and now here about formic acid. So far, I don't remember seeing anyone challenge this. I personally don't see the justification for the claim. If the chemical doesn't kill the bees, then why on earth would it be "impossible" for the mites to at least develop the same level of resistance as what the bees already have? Remember that "resistance" doesn't mean "absolute immunity to the effects of the treatment", it just means that the resistant mites can tolerate a little bit more, so that dosages that will kill the mites also become dangerous to the bees. So, when claims are made that mites cannot become resistant to a particular treatment, is there any grounds for this, or is it just wishful thinking? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:47:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Trattle Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid In-Reply-To: <20020923.192400.1624.1.willetslakeapiaries@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information in english on the German field trials can be found at:- http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/host/pdf/alternativ/absOSRalph.pdf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Be Informed on Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sioux bee says information published in ABJ is not accurate at Sioux bee meeting when asked by members. Sioux bee will bottle foreign honey for its foreign accounts in Argentina they did say at the meeting. Several Sioux bee were members ousted for refusing to sell their crop to Sioux bee. The above was obtained from talking to a Sioux bee member which was at the meeting and from talking to a ousted Sioux bee member. bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Be Informed on Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The current high price of honey has got California Almond growers trying to lock beekeepers into 2003 polination contracts at 2002 prices. Many beekeepers are not going to California but going to stay home and produce honey. Almond growers could be in big trouble. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Formic Acid Mark, the last I heard, we can't use it here in the States, something about danger to post office workers. I'll be happy if things are changed though. I'm still safe with checkmite, most of the other beekeepers have given up on bees, and the ag commissioner told me that I was the only one in the county using check mite, at least legally. At one apiary, I've had to treat all my hives last month, as someone a few hundred yards from me lost every single one of his hives due to ineffective treatment. My biggest apiary, where I have 60 hives spread around a large lemon farm is still fine, although I've seen a very few bees with shrivelled wings. This puts me at 10 months from my last treatment, and it really isn't more expensive than the figures you gave for formic acid treatment. Still, I'd like something in reserve. Regards Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > The evaporation method is cheap and simple, and apparently very effective. > Even one application has effects lasting for weeks, apparently due to the > vapour condensing to small crystals that endure for a while. snip > I think vaporized oxalic may be one. Allan's website has info on Oxalic Acid and is one of the many I visited trying to get info. There are a variety of application methods and each has its own concentrations and amounts. There are two drip methods, one you drip between frames directly on the bees. The other you drip on the frames. There are also a variety of foggers, vaporizers and sprayers. Some are commercial, some are home made. You can make up a solution and use a common garden sprayer. Or use a fogger. Or use a vaporizer. All seem to have some things in common. They are very effective in killing mites, but only exposed mites. You are usually looking at 70-90% kills. More than one application is not recommended. Applications are best in the fall, especially during the broodless period. Temperature at the time of application is a not usually an issue, like formic or menthol, so fall application is no problem. Plus, add on the usual precautions for any pesticide. It is easily obtained, since it is sold cheap in hardware stores for bleaching wood. It is dangerous, but it is much less concentrated than formic. Usually the concentrations are about 3-4%. It is indiscriminate in what it kills in concentrations higher or applications longer than what the application method calls for. You can drip on the frames at a higher concentration than on the bees than spraying than... you get the idea, so it is not one size fits all. I have used it twice. The first time, about two years ago in spring, I killed a weak hive. I used the concentrations sent by a beekeeper who used it for several years. I eventually figured out that the directions were for a strong or normal strength hive but there was nothing in the directions to know that. I followed the directions to the letter and lost the hive. Which is why I did a lot more research and found out that there is were a span of concentrations and amounts to administer, as found on the web, so be careful before you leap on the Oxalic Acid bandwagon. That said, I am using it. It works when applied correctly. It will not give 100% control, but it does not appear to be anything that mites will develop resistance to. It is easy to apply and only requires one visit to the hives, but takes a bit longer than putting in strips. And you have to be careful in what and how you do it. My recent application (drip on frames) was uneventful and the bees show no ill effects. But we shall see how they are in the spring. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:31:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Be Informed on Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > Many beekeepers are not going to California but going to stay home and > produce honey. Almond growers could be in big trouble. Likewise, if pollinators stay home to be honey producers, honey producers will be in big trouble when the bottom drops out of the honey market. They won't be able to afford a bag of almonds! Aaron Morris - thinking it's a closed system! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: The "Right To Farm Laws" and (anti)Beekeeping Ordinances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew W said: > Unfortunately the victory tonight is bittersweet. > beekeeping will be allowed by "special review". > the application fee for any "Special Review" is $1,185.00! Not to worry. You don't have to spend that much. You don't have to spend a dime. You appear to have the ultimate trump card in your hand. Always look at the cards you are dealt. All the cards. Colorado, like most all US states, has a "Right To Farm" law. Anyone can read their own state's "Right To Farm" law here: http://www.farmlandinfo.org/fic/laws/kwrtf.html and all state "farmland protection laws" are listed here: http://www.farmlandinfo.org/fic/laws/fpkeytab.html Colorado's law specifically includes beekeeping. Colorado's law clearly says that the ordinance is "void". Let them write their ordinance if they wish. Even though Castle Rock, CO is a "home rule" locality, they would need a voter-initiated "initiative" or "referendum", and the support of the majority of the voters to make it legal. Usual warning - I am not a lawyer. I employ lawyers to do contracts and such, and I have learned enough from the experience to understand the concepts presented here. You should ask a practicing lawyer (one from another town, of course) about this, since it seems to be a clear and compelling example of "an issue of law", without any "issues of fact" to muddy the waters. Colorado's version of "Right To Farm" is very interesting, in that the wording is very clear, allowing a beekeeper to: a) Overturn any/all local ordinances that restrict beekeeping with no more than a simple pleading in municipal court. b) "Recover Costs", which means you can ask the court to force the locality to pay the cost of bringing suit against them. The key is the official wording of Colorado State Law 35-3.5-102(5), which says: " Any ordinance or resolution of any unit of local government that makes the operation of any agricultural operation a nuisance or provides for the abatement thereof as a nuisance under the circumstances set forth in this section is void; except that the provisions of this subsection (5) shall not apply when an agricultural operation is located within the corporate limits of any city or town on July 1, 1981, or is located on a property that the landowner voluntarily annexes to a municipality on or after July 1, 1981." Read the following line care, since this is the crux of the matter: "...shall not apply when an agricultural operation is located within the corporate limits of any city or town on July 1, 1981..." >From the plain wording of the law, if you were not beekeeping within the town on July 1, 1981, any ordinance is void by state law. (If you were keeping bees on July 1, 1981, you are out of luck, but I question how they might prove such a thing...) "or is located on a property that the landowner voluntarily annexes to a municipality on or after July 1, 1981." If you did not voluntarily annex your land to the Town on/after July 1, 1981, then the ordinance is also void by state law. The town might try to pat you on the head and tell you that you should read the legislation as: "shall not apply when an agricultural operation is located within the corporate limits of any city or town on OR AFTER July 1, 1981..." but the legislature clearly did NOT write that, the legislature has made several revisions to the law, and would have corrected any wording errors by now, so the town cannot read the law differently from the "plain wording of the law". (If they want to change the wording of the law, they should ask their state representative to sponsor a bill... hehehe) A well-known precept of judicial review of legislation is that judges are required to interpret what the law specifically says, and to not attempt any interpretation, or even rule that the legislature made "a typo". Given that the state law uses the term "abatement", the state law prohibits the town from putting any limits on your beekeeping. The case is a slam-dunk for any lawyer capable of filing even the most basic paperwork, but it will require a lawyer with an ironic sense of humor. Find one who is in the business of dealing with rural property law, or get a referral from the local Farm Bureau. Below is the full text of the appropriate sections of Colorado law, and links to each specific section: 35-3.5-102 - Agricultural operation deemed not nuisance - state agricultural commission - attorney fees - exceptions. (1) (a) Except as provided in this section, an agricultural operation shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance if the agricultural operation alleged to be a nuisance employs methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural production. (b) An agricultural operation that employs methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural production shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance as a result of any of the following activities or conditions: (I) Change in ownership; (II) Nonpermanent cessation or interruption of farming; (III) Participation in any government sponsored agricultural program; (IV) Employment of new technology; or (V) Change in the type of agricultural product produced. (2) (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section to the contrary, an agricultural operation shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance if such agricultural operation: (I) Was established prior to the commencement of the use of the area surrounding such agricultural operation for nonagricultural activities; (II) Employs methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural production; and (III) Is not operating negligently. (b) Employment of methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural production shall create a rebuttable presumption that an agricultural operation is not operating negligently. (3) The court may, pursuant to sections 13-16-122 and 13-17-102, C.R.S., award expert fees, reasonable court costs, and reasonable attorney fees to the prevailing party in any action brought to assert that an agricultural operation is a private or public nuisance. Nothing in this section shall be construed as restricting, superseding, abrogating, or contravening in any way the provisions of sections 25-7-138 (5), C.R.S., and 25-8-501.1 (8), C.R.S. (4) As used in this article, "agricultural operation" has the same meaning as "agriculture", as defined in section 35-1-102 (1). (5) Any ordinance or resolution of any unit of local government that makes the operation of any agricultural operation a nuisance or provides for the abatement thereof as a nuisance under the circumstances set forth in this section is void; except that the provisions of this subsection (5) shall not apply when an agricultural operation is located within the corporate limits of any city or town on July 1, 1981, or is located on a property that the landowner voluntarily annexes to a municipality on or after July 1, 1981. (6) This section shall not invalidate any contracts made prior to September 1, 2000, but shall be applicable only to contracts and agreements made on or after September 1, 2000. (7) A local government may adopt an ordinance or pass a resolution that provides additional protection for agricultural operations; except that no such ordinance or resolution shall prevent an owner from selling his or her land or prevent or hinder the owner in seeking approval to put the land into alternative use. http://64.78.178.12/cgi-dos/statdspp.exe?LNP&doc=35-3.5-102 35-1-102 - Definitions As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires: (1) "Agriculture" means the science and art of production of plants and animals useful to man, including, to a variable extent, the preparation of these products for man's use and their disposal by marketing or otherwise, and includes horticulture, floriculture, viticulture, forestry, dairy, livestock, poultry, bee, and any and all forms of farm products and farm production. http://64.78.178.12/cgi-dos/statdspp.exe?LNP&DOC=35-1-102 jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:46:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "h.morton@worldnet.att.net" Subject: Jenter Queen Rearing System Ivan McGill Responded to my earlier posting however I could not send a request for additional information so I'm submitting this. Thanking Ivan in advance. Thank you for responding to me posting on the Bee List Service!! I'm in my seventh year of beekeeping and now interested in growing my own queens. I live in the Raleigh, North Carolina, USA area. Based on the responses I received, I'm returning the Jenter system and going with grafting using the Chinese tool. Also, I'm interested in making my own cell cups (just sounds like fun) and you're the only one that mentioned making your own. Could you give me some additional information on the following?? I sure hope so! Your response was most helpful. 1. Your process for making cell cups and would you recommend this for a first timer? 2. How do you chose the larva to graft or do you have a process for getting the correct age larva to graft? 3. How do you transfer the cell cups to a hive or nuc? 4. Where do you purchase the JZ BZ plastic cell cups? Thanks Ham Morton h.morton@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:14:27 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Control treatment of Varroa and Acarine mites is possible with the use of Formic Acid - fine. According to the recent thread on Oxalic Acid - Varroa is controlled, again appears fine. But whilst using Oxalic against Varroa, how and when would one treat against Acarine mites? Is it possible to use this acid in the presence of other materials, or is there going to be a reaction and therefore a result that is possibly detrimental to the colony/ beekeeper/ crop? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:12:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ordinance CHANGED for Castle Rock, CO to allow beekeeping! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great Job, Matthew! It comes as quite a shock to many that 99% of Americans know only two things about honey bees: HONEY and STING. No one seems to know about the pollination of our human food. All beekeepers should be ready to attend zoning meetings, etc., regarding honey bees and explain their importance the public. Nice to hear from you. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Ordinance CHANGED for Castle Rock, CO to allow beekeeping! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >To George Imrie, Dick Allen, Arron Morris, Lloyd Spear Hi Matthew: You meant Allen Dick, I’m sure. Anyway, good luck with the ordinance. Back in the mid 1980's local beekeepers here in Anchorage went to the municipal assembly and asked that a law be placed on the books allowing people to keep bees in the city. Prior to this time, people did have bees within the city limits. However, there was a vaguely worded general nuisance law that was sometimes used against beekeepers if a neighbor complained about ‘those damn bees’ next door. The beekeepers’ request for a law wasn't taken seriously at first. The assembly rescheduled beekeeping hearings, etc. whenever those things came up. Eventually it was drafted. Part of the wording was: "...colonies shall: a. Be at least 25 feet away from any lot line not in common ownership, or b. Be oriented with entrances facing away from adjacent property, or c. Be place at least eight feet above ground level, or d. Be placed behind a fence at least 6 feet in height and extending at least 10 feet beyond the hive in both directions." One of the assembly members insisted on changing the word "or" in the language to "and". So, it was back for more talks and discussion., Finally the worried assembly member was persuaded that any of the original stipulations would keep bees from flying directly across any neighbor’s property. It has worked out pretty well over the years. When I first got bees my next door neighbor was watching (unbeknownst to me) as I worked a hive. After a few minutes he asked “Are those bees? Don’t you get stung?” We had a chat and I convinced him, or so I thought, that the bees would be ok. Every now and then I’d see him and he’d always ask ‘how are the bees doing?’ or something to that effect. He seemed at ease and sometimes even enthusiastic. One day while I was in my garage I heard him telling one of his kids: “Get away from that fence! He’s got those goddam bees over there, you know!” Without the ordinance, who knows if I would be keeping bees here. My neighbor does like free honey, though. Regards, Dick Allen--not to be confused with Allen Dick (I'm still a new guy) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:21:52 -0400 Reply-To: Judy & Dave Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Judy & Dave Subject: Re: The "Right To Farm Laws" and (anti)Beekeeping Ordinances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeper friends! Here I am, rushing right in, the angels are holding back to see what happens before they tread one way or another. ;o} I am not an attorney. I was a paralegal for 25+ years. I specialized in legal research. That said, I would definitely second Jim's suggestion that you talk with an attorney. Here are some thoughts to consider. -Snippage- > 35-3.5-102 - Agricultural operation deemed not nuisance - state agricultural commission > - attorney fees - exceptions. > > (1) (a) Except as provided in this section, an agricultural operation shall not be found to be a ====================== ============ > public or private nuisance if the agricultural operation alleged to be a nuisance employs > methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural production. Section 35-3.5-102, Sub 1, Sub (b) identifies some of the reasons that an ag operation shall not be found to be a nuisance. The Sub 1, Sub (b), Sub (I) through (V) sets forth some of those reasons. It is definitely an "OR" (As seen at the end of Sub (IV): (snipped only for brevity) > (IV) Employment of new technology; or > (V) Change in the type of agricultural product produced. The next subsection may be a cause for concern. You will note that Section 35-3.5-102, Sub 2, Sub (a)specifically identifies some examples that will cause the ag operation to not be found to be a nuisance. This subsection is definitely an "AND" (As seen at the end of Sub (II): > (2) (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section to the contrary, an agricultural > operation shall not be found to be a public or private nuisance if such agricultural operation: > (I) Was established prior to the commencement of the use of the area surrounding such agricultural > operation for nonagricultural activities; > Right there is my cause for concern. If the ag operation was in operation PRIOR to the development of the surrounding area; such as, farm land being divided and sub-divided and the area becomes a suburb with a few farmers holding out. The ag operation cannot be forced out if it was there first. However, this subsection could be interpreted to mean that the ag operation, if it was not there first, could be found to be a nuisance. (II) Employs methods or practices that are commonly or reasonably associated with agricultural > production; and > (III) Is not operating negligently. > I don't necessarily agree or not agree with Jim's interpretation. However, as usual, you probably want to talk to an attorney. In addition, when a judicial officer is studying a statute, whether as a result of a challenge or just a requested application, they usually, if not always, refer to the record of the legislative discussion held when a particular statute was passed. This legislative record is a common tool for understanding, not always interpreted the same, but still helpful to the resolution of an issue. Sorry for the sub-legal speak, but I am sure someone on here expected it! Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:00:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Foggers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All For those members who may be planning on using FGMO the following posting on the FGMO Discussion List may be helpful. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland > Way back in 1997 when I started using foggers for spraying with FGMO, I wrote to Burgess about purchasing foggers directly for them. Their reply was that they would only sell to authorized dealers. !!!!!!!! > It seems that Burgess has discovered that there is a ready market for them in the beekeeping industry and they have changed their sales policy. > I am quite glad they have changed their policy because that means that beekeepers in any part of the world may have access to them. > I am not in any kind of business, selling or buying. I do have some foggers which I bought at retail prices (NOT wholesale from Burgess) and had to pay states sales taxes and customs duties and shipping costs, Sorry if it appears that the cost is higher. >I spend a lot of personal money doing my research without any hope of remuneration. What I can not afford is to give equipment away, for sure. Sorry. > A word of caution. There are many foggers. Some of them may not be suitable for spraying FGMO because they may produce too large particles and would kill bees. This fact has been proven without doubt, fact that has been aired on this forum. >Sincerely. >Dr. Rodriguez > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:53:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Peter Dillon asked about controlling acarine. FGMO controls both varroa and acarine. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:33:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Jenter Queen Rearing System/wax cups MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ham Some of your questions on making cell cups are answered on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/grafting.html It is 'fun' providing you are making smallish quantities. Choosing larvae is something you get used to... the ideal is just as the skin of the egg dissolves, something the size of an egg, but slightly "C" shaped. If it is fully "C" shaped it is older than ideal, but will still be used by the bees to raise a queen. You prepare your cell frame in advance and put it in the nuc the day before you are going to graft. Then on grafting day you simply put the frame back in the nuc. If there is a long distance between where you graft and the nuc, particularly if the sun is strong, then wrap a damp towel around the frame whilst you are carrying it. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:21:57 -0700 Reply-To: mejensen@pacbell.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Honey Bears and Creamed Honey Containers In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My recent query to the bee-l on honey bear sources yielded a new source, G.M. Plastics, Bristow, OK, 918 367 5993, which saved me $.04 ea. or $200 on an order of 5000. Lloyd was right - Quality Container didn't even return my call even though I didn't say anything about the size of my order when I left a message. I must have sounded like a small fish. In hopes of repeating my success with the bears, I would like to find a cheaper source for creamed honey containers. For a number of years I have been buying 1 1/2 lb plastic tubs with snap on lids from Berry Plastics for around $.15 ea. in 5000 quantities. I have some evidence that that may be too high but don't have any other leads on competitive suppliers. G.M. Plastics doesn't make them. Anybody have a hot tip? Thanks. Mark Jensen mejensen@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:06:43 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: More On (anti)Beekeeping Ordinances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a few weapons-grade legal precedents that one might find useful for vaporizing any municipal ordinance restricting beekeeping in the USA. [Insert usual advisory here - Talk to an attorney, blah, blahblah ] It is also a classic example of the sort of dynamic serendipity that happens all the time here at Farmageddon, and makes us wonder if our land adjoins the Twilight Zone. One day, a friend (who earns a living as a federal prosecutor) was waiting for me to get off the phone, and wandered into our library to glance at a few books. Several days later, at dinner, each person around the table was asked to tell of the strangest thing seen or heard that day (a game we often play to avoid bogging down on boring subjects like work, politics, and the ongoing drought of biblical proportions). I told the tale of the psychotic town who presumed to force prospective beekeepers to "apply" for "permission" to keep bees in the town, and pay a hefty fee for the dubious privilege of having them decide if they would allow bees to exist in their city. After the gardeners around the table finished their predictable hyperventilation and choking spells, the same friend said that she had read of two different appeals cases where such ordinances were overturned, and that she had read this in one of my "bee books". She dropped by again tonight, and I asked her to point out which book she had glanced through. She pointed to the gold lettering on the spine of a 1920 edition of "The ABC and XYZ Of Bee Culture". Sure enough, the stitching of the binding makes the book tend to fall open to page 497, "Laws Relating To Bees". The context in which these cases are mentioned in the book is as follows: ======= Quoting from ABC & XYZ 1920 ================ BEES NOT A NUISANCE The liability of a beekeeper... rests on the doctrine of negligence, and not on the doctrine or theory the bees are a nuisance per se; that is, in themselves a nuisance. In the case of Petey Manufacturing Co. vs. Dryson (Del.) 5 Pen 166; 62 Atl. 1056, the court used the following language: "The keeping of bees is recognized as proper and beneficial, and it seems to us that the liability of the owner as keeper thereof for any injury done by them to the person or property of another rests on the doctrine of negligence." Also see Cooley on Torts, 349... ARKADELPHIA VS. CLARK Arkadelphia vs. Clark, 52 Ark. 23; 11 S.W. 957, is a case in point. This particular case was decided in 1889... ...The decision as handed down by the Supreme Court was that: "Neither the keeping, owning, or raising of bees is, in itself, a nuisance. Bees may become a nuisance in a city, but whether they are so or not is a question to be judicially determined in each case. The ordinance under consideration undertakes to make each of the acts named a nuisance without regard to the fact whether it is or not, whether the bees in general have become a nuisance in the city. It is therefore too broad and is invalid". Another instance where a city tried to prohibit beekeeping within the city occurred in 1901, when the city of Rochester, NY enacted an ordinance similar to the one enacted by the city of Arkadelphia. W. R. Taunton, a member of the National Beekeepers' Association... ...The defense was that the ordinance was unconstitutional and void, and it was so held by the court, and the defendant was discharged." ======= End Quoting from ABC & XYZ 1920 ================ The book did not give a citation for the "Taunton" case, and it mentions "police court", meaning a local municipal court. Good luck finding a published opinion for this one. My prosecutor friend offered the opinion that older rulings, if not since overturned, carry more "weight" than modern rulings simply due to their "ivy covered" status. Given a choice, she would rather cite the Magna Carta than a 1982 ruling of the 4th Circuit. Nota bene: While I was typing the above, two windows popped open on my workstation to show me "relevant data" to what I was typing. (Amazing what our stable of grad students on work-study do in their "spare time" these days...) These are additional quotes from the same book, which I will not bother to type again: http://www.beesource.com/eob/laws/rootlaw.htm http://www.beesource.com/eob/laws/court.htm jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: More On (anti)Beekeeping Ordinances Re: Bees being a nuisance. We had to move a yard of 16 this summer. There was a thick patch of woods and a road separating them from the nearest neighbor. Unfortunately, they were going over and stinging him when he was in his garden. The law may have been on our side, but common courtesy compelled us to get out of his hair. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 03:16:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Coldiron said: > What ever happened to Formic Acid gel packs for mite control. > I thought it had promise and the Department of Agriculture liked it too. What I hear is that they are "still working on it". They have not given up. I do not have any answers or suggestions for the team working on the problem or problems, but I have given some thought to the packaging, which was said to be a problem a while back. Just for fun, let's assume that I want to sell you some formic acid for varroa control, just to poke around the edges of some of "the problems". It is pretty simple stuff chemically - two hydrogens and a single carbon dioxide. Sounds pretty harmless, huh? But it is an acid. Formic acid has a low specific heat of vaporization (483 kJ/kg). This means it vaporizes easily, even at "room temperature". In fact, one can get decent rates of vaporization even down at 10 degrees C (50 degrees F). In other words, the stuff is volatile as heck! Now, assume I want to ship you some Formic Acid. If I look it up in my Haz-Mat book, I find that it is not something I can ship very easily. Here's what it says: Corrosive, causes severe burns. Harmful by inhalation, ingestion and through skin absorption. Readily absorbed through skin. Very destructive of mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract, eyes and skin. Inhalation may be fatal. CAS No: 64-18-6 EC No: 200-597-1 UN No: 1779 UN Major hazard class: 8.0 (Corrosive substances) Packing group: II (A "moderate" hazard) Transport category: 2 (Flammable Liquids and Gases) Risk Class: R35 (Causes severe burns) Warning Phrase S23 (Do not breathe vapor) Warning Phrase S26 (In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice) Warning Phrase S45 (In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately [show the label whenever possible.]) (As an aside, trucks that carried things that might catch fire had signs that said "Inflammable" when I was a boy. Now, all the trucks merely say "Flammable". Is everything somehow less combustible now?) But forget inflamability.... "Inhalation may be fatal"? Wow, the EPA is going to have fun roasting me slowly over glowing coals just for suggesting that I might sell this stuff in liquid form to the general public. (And yeah - beekeepers are considered "the general public".) But, let's assume that a miracle occurs, and the EPA lets me sell it. So, let's look in my UPS book, and see if they will ship it.... Oh, goodie! UPS will let me ship a total of 1 liter per package, and it must be shipped in one of those fancy "can within a can" packages. Yes, that's right... the shipping container will cost more than the product!!! The UPS Haz-Mat fees will also cost more than the product. But I cannot in good conscience simply ship you the liquid, can I? You might spill it on your right arm, prompting people to call you "Lefty" for the rest of your life. Since you live in the USA, where ambulance-chasing is the primary reason why attorneys drive cars equipped with turbochargers, I can be assured that I will be sued early and often. So, I need a "package", but wow, what a set of design requirements... It must somehow "open" to allow vaporization, but stay completely sealed from manufacturing, through a distributor, through a dealer, bouncing around in a beekeeper's truck, and so on. It has to have a "shelf life", so when "closed" the package must be perfectly air tight. (I'm thinking "plastic-coated sterno can" here.) It has to be something that will fit in a beehive, a place with not much in the way of clearances. (Now I'm thinking of a very short sterno can, the height of an old-style metal pocket-sized aspirin tin). But wait.... assuming that the package arrives intact in the beekeeper's hands, and he/she has placed it in the hive, how the heck do I assure a consistent "dose" over a wide range of temperatures? If it is really hot, and the bees are having problems keeping the hive cool, the darned stuff will vaporize too quickly, make "too much" vapor, and kill bees. So, I need some sort of semi-permeable membrane thingy, that acts like a "queen excluder" for gasses. Kinda slow down the vaporization, maybe limit the reaction by limiting the escape of the gasses... ...maybe I'll give you a call next month. But how can they get away with using this stuff in Canada? Those Canadians are tough. Really tough. I've heard that many of them can even listen to an entire Celine Dion album without being driven stark raving mad, so a little acid would be nothing to them! :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:31:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Swarm Trap Lures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saw mention of swarm trap lures and being both lazy and not allowed much time for e-mail, I would like to know what is used as lures for swarm traps. I would like to get wome swarms from the area, which would be highly resistant to mites haing survived a number of years without any treatment. There are no beekeepers in the area, the closest that I know being about four miles away and he doesn't treat his colonies with any mite treatments (A beehaver?). Anyway, recomendations for lures would be appreciated. Mike from south central Alabama, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: More On (anti)Beekeeping Ordinances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > We had to move a yard of 16 this summer. > The law may have been on our side, but common > courtesy compelled us to get out of his hair. I doubt that the law would have been on "your side" that time. One or more of the 16 beehives were being a tangible and repeated nuisance to the neighbor. Repeated stinging incidents near a beeyard would be enough for a judge to order hives moved. An enlightened judge might want to see some proof that the stinging insects were bees (rather than wasps or yellowjackets), but after that, he'd rule against the beekeeper. The crucial difference with ordinances is that they impose prior restraint, based upon an faulty assumption that bees are a general nuisance by their mere presence, or a "threat" to "the general welfare" by definition. Courts have ruled multiple times against such assumptions. Therefore, even though local government ordinances can be challenged, blocked, and overturned, any specific hive(s) can still be ordered moved, if there is clear proof that the bees from the specific hive(s) have become a tangible nuisance. The short version is that bees are not a nuisance per se, but they can become a specific nuisance under specific circumstances. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: $100 cucumber Comments: To: Matthew Westall In-Reply-To: <016d01c26571$0a477440$65cb20cc@ecapital83wvji> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:26 AM 9/26/02 -0600, Matthew Westal wrote: >& Peter - Stung while working his garden? Across a row of trees? Have >you asked if he still received stings AFTER you moved the bees or if he >had a one to show you? I would bet the gardener mistook yellow-jackets >for bees. Not many look to see what stung them if there's a beekeeper >nearby to point the finger to. Really, Mat. Do you think I would have moved 16 hives in the middle of summer without considering ALL the options? This guy is a retired farmer, he knows the difference between a yellow jacket and a honey bee. Anyway, I sat with him on his porch and watched bees come over the trees and the road and buzz his yard. I think skunks were probably a major factor here. If skunks are working hives they are pretty much ticked off all the time. Also, bees seem to be more edgy in shady woodsy spots.The apiary in question was not established by me and I had a feeling we would have trouble there: too close to the guy's house. Normally, when I establish a yard I look around and I am pleased if I can't see a single dwelling. That means nobody can see me. Then, if the bees get angry for whatever reason, there isn't anybody for them to take it out on, and the neighbors won't know who to blame, anyway. In San Diego County, they had a 600 feet ordinance, which precluded keeping bees in most residential neighborhoods. My favorite yard is way back in the corner of a pasture, a half mile from the nearest house. I have another apiary in a public garden. People walk by the bees all the time. There is a tall circular hedge of yew trees forcing the bees to fly upward, but nothing to prevent them from stinging someone walking by the narrow entrance between the trees. Honestly, I always worry about this bee yard. I don't *want* people to get stung. I try not to annoy the bees when I am there, but you know, sometimes they get ticked. (I am not St. Francis) pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:34:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ordinance CHANGED for Castle Rock, CO to allow beekeeping! Comments: cc: "beekeeper@SCREAMINET.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Matt, Good to hear from you, thanks for the plug! Congrats on the ordinance! :-) Too bad about the exorbitant fee. :-( There's always something the politcos can throw at you. My town (actually, it's a village) passed a Round Lake Right to Farm Law, the intent of which was to protect the rights of those who have been farming for years from the concerns of new neighbors moving in or building near (as developement encroaches) the extant farms. I sat on the village board at the time the law was passed and when they were defining the activities to be protected, I had inserted into the list "Apiculture". So Round Lake has on the books a law protecting beekeepers' rights. However, when a new resident had problems with and filed a complaint about my bees, the Village did an end run around their own law by hitting my with "Running a Commercial Business in a Residential Zone". It cost me $500 legal fees to reach a compromise allowing me to run my business provided there were no active colonies within Village limits. My legal council advised that there would have to be an ajudcatory hearing to decide if the Right to Farm law would stand, he seemed to think it would not, and estimated it would cost around $2000 to roll the dice. I moved my bees and am now very careful to keep my activities as "underground" as possible. So if it's not one thing it's another. Victorys are always hard fought, sometimes hollow, and most times expensive. Good luck in the continued struggle! Aaron M orris - thinking Lawyers and Politicians, the varroa (blood suckers) of society! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:59:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Formic Acid The "Claims" for the are based on successful use over the past seasons and discussions with many other keepers in the area that have been using Formiic acid for many seasons more than I. Hardly scientific I agree, however, the results, costs and benefits are speaking for themselves. As I mentioned, I also would like to see the Scientific study bear out what is being claimed. Please note that I didn't use the words "impossible" nor say "cannot become resistant" and I don't think any responsible commentator would say such thing. That is why we are looking for papers that can add to the body of evidence in support of Formic. I believe the reason for the effectiveness of Formic acid is that it is more like a sledge rather than a finishing hammer to kill the mites. Formic acid attacks dissolves the mites chitinous shell and the only way to develop a resistance to that is for the shell to get thicker or evolve a different shell. A thicker cell would result in a much bigger mite, removing the advantage of their small size. The reason the bees can tolerate the dissolving fumes of the acid is simply their shells are thicker. You can tell the bess don't like the acid either, as on hot days, they gather in much larger numbers than ususal at the entrance. Just emerged bees can be killed by the Formic treatments as their shells have yet to harden fully. The slowness of mites to develop a resistance seems to have alot to do with how Formic kills them. Developing a resistant "skin" is a much more dramatic evolutionary adjustment than then how the chemical strips kill. I believe the strips attack from the cellular level, which is much easier for mites to evolve a resistance to than Formic acid. Hence the aforementioned, Sledge vs. Finishing hammer analogy! Perhaps, over the years the mites may develop a resistance, however, opposed to the strips resistance that seems to develop after about a year or so of use Formic acid still looks better and does by you time for other alternative treatments to develop. In my initial message, I failed to mention that the effectiveness of Formic acid is largely related to weather conditions. If you experience cool weather during the treatment period then the effectiveness of Formic acid is reduced sharply. Formic treatment requires warm/hot weather to vaporize the acid to circulate through the hive and kill the mites. When the weather is too cool, the amount of Formic circulating may not reach lethal levels, thus reducing the mite kill. Bottom line for me, having used both methods (strips vs. acid), acid is superior. Cheers, Mark Walker. > >> Tracheal mites with no fear of a resistance developing, unlike Apistan and >> Checkmite. > >I am very puzzled by this. What are the grounds for the claims that the >mites will never become resistant to formic acid or oxalic acid? I saw >this claim in several posts about oxalic acid earlier today, and now >here about formic acid. So far, I don't remember seeing anyone challenge >this. > >I personally don't see the justification for the claim. If the chemical >doesn't kill the bees, then why on earth would it be "impossible" for >the mites to at least develop the same level of resistance as what the >bees already have? Remember that "resistance" doesn't mean "absolute >immunity to the effects of the treatment", it just means that the >resistant mites can tolerate a little bit more, so that dosages that >will kill the mites also become dangerous to the bees. > >So, when claims are made that mites cannot become resistant to a >particular treatment, is there any grounds for this, or is it just >wishful thinking? > >-- >Tim Eisele >tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:02:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Information in english on the German field trials can be found at:- > http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm > http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/host/pdf/alternativ/absOSRalph.pdf I did some research. Univar sells tech grade oxalic acid in 25kg quantities. It is a stock item and costs $4.18/kg (CAD) for tech grade, which has a stated minimum purity of 99.6% Chemfax has 1kg, 5kg, and 22.7 pails for $16.50, $62.10, $165.40. Again, it is tech grade. Lab grade and reagent grade are also available, but at much higher cost. If the web site (above) is right and one treatment takes is 2.8g, then 25kg would treat (25,000 / 2.8 = ) 8,929 colonies once for a total material cost of $104.50 CAD or $66 US (plus labour). The material cost amounts to about a cent per colony per treatment. That's cheap! allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:27:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Fluvalinate Toxicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, BEE-L'ers. The WA State U., and probably yours, publishes an insect management handbook, which lists the dermal and oral toxcicity of about 300 agricultural pesticides, including fluvalinate (Apistan). The dermal toxcicity is not only the lowest listed but is only half as toxic as the next least. There are pesticides which require careful attention to gloves but Apistan is not one of them. I am hugely annoyed that the package label requires gloves because excessive cautions degrade the whole system of label cautions. The oral toxcicity is also quantified. If a representative sample, say a thousand, 176 pound mamals drank 20,880 mgs of fluvalinate, half would survive. I can't see any reason to ignore data when they are available. Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: To Combine Small Colonies or Not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have two smaller colonies: 1 that went queenless in mid-summer and was given a new queen, which they accepted, and 1 that was "collected" outside a hive in a condominium wall, and was similarly provided with a new queen, which they accepted. Both hives are bascially in a single brood box on drawn comb with stores that are meager (2-3 frames of honey, plus brood and pollen). I have a whole brood box of drawn comb filled with honey that is a "spare" - that is all other hives have at least a full brood box of winter stores, plus a second brood box of mixed brood/pollen/honey. I don't know whether to try to overwinter the two small colonies by splitting the single brood box of capped honey between them, or to combine them. Additionally, I could take a "donated" frame of brood from other stronger hives to boost the bee count in each. I just don't know what the dynamics are here, whether the techniques used to provide resources to small colonies generally succeed, or whether combining usally ends up being the better alternative. I'm seeking advice from those with more experience than I have. This is New Jersey - the golden rod here is just passing it's fall peak, the bees are not really clustering yet and are very busy on warm days, the nights are running about 60 degrees. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:38:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Formic Acid Formic acid was approved for use in the U.S. wasn't it? My understanding is that problems with packaging became a major hurdle for the company that was going to sell it. As far as immunity to acids such as formic and oxalic, wouldn't it be difficult for mites to become resistant to an acid. Simply because bees survive the stuff doesn't mean it is harmless to them. Bees, to my understanding, don't particularly like having formic acid in their hives and I believe it does at cause at least some small amount of harm to them at times. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:17:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > According to the recent thread on Oxalic Acid - Varroa is controlled, again appears fine. > But whilst using Oxalic against Varroa, how and when would one treat against Acarine mites? > Is it possible to use this acid in the presence of other materials, or is there going to be a > reaction and therefore a result that is possibly detrimental to the colony/ beekeeper/ crop? Apparently when oxalic is vaporized, roughly two thirds to one half turns to water and CO2 and the balance precipitates in oxalic crystals throughout the hive. About 1% of the oxalic also turns to formic acid, if I understand the Mellifera e.V., Vereinigung für wesensgemässe Bienenhaltung work correctly. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: BMeister@abac.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Re: Feeding 50-50 Sugar syrup In-Reply-To: <01C264DF.D586A190.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: I am a "NewBee" having hived my first package this May. I now have three colonies and am targeting for 5 to 6 in time for Avocado bloom the first of the year. I live in Fallbrook Southern California in San Diego county, USA. I have been feeding 50-50 sugar syrup along with pollen substitute patties. When I feed in a division board feeder, the bees will empty it in about 1-1/2 days. There's a lot of syrup now in the combs, but once the feeders are empty, there is no more "nectar" coming into the hive. (I'm assuming here that the current drought has reduced natural forage to nil) I've read that a colony can become "honey bound" and interfere with egg laying so I'm concerned about feeding too much. Our winters are very mild and I can make sure the bees are supplied with food contiunally so I don't feel it's critical to amass winter stores in my area. My questions are: 1) What is the preferred rate of feeding in order to maximize colony development? Is it better to have a lot of stored syrup all at once or is it better to limit the rate at which they can take syrup by feeding with sealed plastic containers with a few small holes. I believe I've read that egg laying is stimultated by nectar flows. Does this mean that the queen may not lay as well without nectar flows even though there is plenty in the combs? 2) Is apple cider vinegar safe to use in syrup to prevent mold in the syrup? I have been using 1 tsp per gallon and it completely prevents mold development. But is it safe for the bees? They seem to take it just fine. And if I should not use vinegar and I have to tolerate mold, does the mold itself cause any problems with the bees? 3) In order to maximize pollination of Avocados, would it be advisable to use pollen traps so the bees will work harder and visit more flowers? 4) Since my objectives are pollination rather than honey production, I have made no preparations for extracting and am reluctant to buy extracting equipment. I assume I can feed surplus honey back to the bees next year. Does anyone know whether avocado honey stores well in the comb? Thanks Bill Meister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:28:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Oxalic Acid Evaporator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I sent the following to the list in April. Has anyone learned anything about it since then? ------ Has anyone on BEE-L had any experience with the Varrox evaporator from Andermatt BIO CONTROL? Or can anyone here read German well enough to chase this idea down? Quoting from http://www.mellifera.de/oxneu.htm "from 95 beekeepers from seven European countries tested the Varrox® evaporator of the company Andermatt BIO CONTROL AG. The data of altogether 1,509 treated bee colonies were entered and analysed. In the field test altogether 797,744 mites and 197,169 bees were counted..." An oxalic evaporator is also described at http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/favorite.htm allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:05:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" gerhart@PAHL.CA submitted to the BEE-L a post that once all the quoted stuff was removed amounted to: "The formic acid pads to which Mark Walker referred in his post can be seen at" www.mitegone.com Aaron Morris - thinking submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:21:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Swarm Trap Lures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, You could purchase commercial lures if you like, It is easy to make lures too! Too make lures you need virgin queens then purree them in enough alcohol to cover. A dab is used once a month per trap. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:48:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fluvalinate Toxicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dan and All, Dan wrote: > The dermal toxcicity is not only the lowest listed but is only half as >toxic as the next least. There are pesticides which require careful >attention to gloves but Apistan is not one of them. I am hugely annoyed >that the package label requires gloves because excessive cautions >degrade the whole system of label cautions. Altough death might not be the end result Fluvalinate should always be handled with gloves. Beekeepers not wearing gloves handling Apistan in Florida were getting sick and some enough to miss work. Is throwing up blood sick enough for you? Statement made to me about Apistan by workers in panhandle of Florida about Apistan and dipping skoal. "Never dip Skoal with the same hand you put Apistan in with Gringo!". It is very hard to make a worker which barely understands English understand you want him to wear proper gloves when handling chemicals. One thing is for sure when they finally figure out that dipping skoal and handling Apistan makes them sick they listen to instructions. I thing the * wear gloves* should stay on the label of Apistan. The above observations were made visiting a friends outfit on one of my many trips south. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:20:01 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, thanks for the info. on Oxalic Acid metabolites - but looking at my original comments, this doesn't really answer my question! If I was wanting to use Oxalic Acid in an area that was infested with acarine mites - how and with what would I tackle the situation. This could be a possibility needs to be clarified, if Oxalic Acid becomes more popular as a treatment against V.d. Formic Acid is there at the moment, but has the disadvantage of being temp. dependent in its efficiency in the hive environment, not to mention possible queen losses at a most inopportune moment - hence the advantage of Oxalic. (Will be interesting to see if studies being conducted into possible Formic Acid treatment in winter housing conditions comes to fruition). So returning to original point in question, is it possible to treat against acarine at the same time as using Oxalic Acid?, or are subsidiary trips into apiaries required before or after. This eats up time during a period when the weather is possibly closing in on the colony. Just trying to come to some sort of decision between Formic or Oxalic. At the moment it's swings and roundabouts!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:39:29 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Under floor heating in Honey houses and associated workshops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before anybody says "Luxury" I would be most interested in hearing from individuals who have or had, a workshop heating system incorporated into the concrete floor of their building. Sounds great for those cold, cold days when lumber is being shaped into hives, frames etc. - but my thoughts turn to the days when the shop is not used - presumably the heating has to continue to stop freezing occurring in the system. Plus the cost of reheating a block of cold material - is it better to keep it warm all the time? If damage to piping is incurred - presumably this is possible - is it possible to repair, or is the whole system just cut off and a conventional heating system put in place (not thinking about the possibility of replacing the floor). Just thinking and dreaming that one day, maybe......... there again thick socks are probably cheaper. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:48:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, I decided to take the plunge and buy a Heilyser oxalic acid vaporizer (model 700). I'm currently a hobbyist with only several hives (Carniolans & Russians), and aspirations to go semi-commercial next year. I'm in central Vermont, and to the best of my knowledge, no one else in Vermont is using oxalic acid on any scale. The best data on oxalic acid I've found thus far is some Danish testing: http://www.agrsci.dk/plb/cjb/oxal-djf.htm This data deals mostly with spray and trickle systems, but should give a decent picture of vaporization results/effects. There seems to be minimal stress to the hive, and no particular evidence of mortality. According to the manufacturer, this type of system is becoming common in parts of Europe and Canada. He states that the vaporized system delivers a much more precise amount than any of the other delivery systems. He also mentions that the oxalic acid (predictably) does not affect capped varroa, but can be used as close as 7 day intervals, and can be used down to 33 degrees F. At $59 U.S., it sounds like it's worth a try. Todd Fillmore Shrewsbury, Vermont ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:42:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Formic Acid >It must somehow "open" to allow vaporization, but stay completely >sealed from manufacturing, through a distributor, through a dealer, >bouncing around in a beekeeper's truck, and so on. > >It has to have a "shelf life", so when "closed" the package must be >perfectly air tight. (I'm thinking "plastic-coated sterno can" here.) > >It has to be something that will fit in a beehive, a place with not >much in the way of clearances. (Now I'm thinking of a very short >sterno can, the height of an old-style metal pocket-sized aspirin tin). > >But wait.... assuming that the package arrives intact in the beekeeper's >hands, and he/she has placed it in the hive, how the heck do I assure >a consistent "dose" over a wide range of temperatures? If it is really >hot, and the bees are having problems keeping the hive cool, the darned >stuff will vaporize too quickly, make "too much" vapor, and kill bees. > >So, I need some sort of semi-permeable membrane thingy, that acts >like a "queen excluder" for gasses. Kinda slow down the vaporization, >maybe limit the reaction by limiting the escape of the gasses... The primary delivery method that is being used in Canada now are Formic Acid soaked foam pads. The type of foam is identical to the compressed foam that is used by florists to mount flower arrangements and hold volumes of water. Apparently the cells are interconnected and allow for a steady release of the contained fluid. The foam pads are about 1/4" thick and vary in size (the ones I use are 4" x 5") and are sealed in plastic shrink wrap. When installing in the hive, the pads are stapled to the inside of the top brood box and the plastic along the bottom edge is trimmed off to expose the formic acid soaked foam. One pad is used for each brood box that is being treated. At the end of 21 days the pad is as light as a feather and ready for removal. The pads are usually thrown away at this point, or if you are cheap enough... you can recharge them yourself. I chuck em' as they are only $4.00 for two pads (one hive treatment). The pads were devised by The Ontario Beekeeper's Association's technical transfer scientist, Dr. Medhat Nasr. You can read further about the pads and their use, etc at their website http://www.miteaway.com/ It is even mentioned that they anticipate the pads being available for sale in the US in 2002. >But how can they get away with using this stuff in Canada? >Those Canadians are tough. Really tough. I've heard that many >of them can even listen to an entire Celine Dion album without >being driven stark raving mad, so a little acid would be nothing to them! Nobody, and I mean nobody is that tough! Not even in Canada!! Cheers, Mark Walker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:38:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Fluvalinate Toxicity In-Reply-To: <20020925212732.664.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all: Dan wrote: The oral toxcicity is also quantified. If a representative sample, say a thousand, 176 pound mamals drank 20,880 mgs of fluvalinate, half would survive. He also wrote about being annoyed about having to wear gloves as per label instructions. Question: As I am just getting back to reviewing emails having been gone a few days, are you only concerned about the toxicity of Apistan for the bees as reguards the killing power of the treatment for the wearing of gloves? Can you discuss more please? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:20:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Swarm Trap Lures ----- Original Message ----- From: "huestis'" To: Sent: 26 September 2002 23:21 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Swarm Trap Lures > Too make lures you need virgin queens then purree them in enough alcohol to > cover. ...eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog, ... Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:35:00 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporator In-Reply-To: <06dd01c2651d$7d7260a0$f27dfea9@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Allen wanted to know about the Varrox... Well, i've seen one in action. It huffs and it puffs and you get a big mushroom cloud of smoke. For my small operation, it seems like the perfect solution. I'd like to know if anyone knows if the effiency of vaporization is equal in a two story hive. I just found out yesterday from a reliable source that in order to get a 90% plus effiency when dripping oxalic in a sugar/water solution, you need to separate the boxes and drip in both of them. The effiency when only dripping in the top box of a two story hive is said to be around 55%, which is far from enough. Having to take the boxes apart to tip the upper one makes dripping seem like a less convenient method. I'm happy though, that i finally got a good explanation for the low effiency of my dripping last fall. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:01:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: CONSUMERS REJECT GM HONEY In-Reply-To: <004001c26186$b8d872a0$24d3883e@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <004001c26186$b8d872a0$24d3883e@default>, Harry Goudie writes >I don't think I belong to a "brigade". Didnt mean to suggest you did. Perhaps should have stressed the AND a bit more clearly. >In fact I feel quite alone and >isolated in my views >These days this would seem to be an uncommon approach with many >beekeepers trying to cover up failings in their product. In my opinion >these people are guilty of deceiving the public This very easily reads as negative marketing, in that you may divulge what you see as the shortcomings of the products of others, even if it requires a bit of coaxing out of you. From my experience this is a 'turn off' to most, but will probably attract a small but loyal customer base. You risk however, becoming the victim of retaliatory negative marketing. A lose-lose situation for all. >I only started selling my honey a couple of weeks ago and I have had to >discuss GM contamination of honey on at least four occasions. From the above, perhaps at a subconcious level, you probably invite it. If you introduce concepts of relative purity in your selling technique then people do leap in with 'things they have heard' in the media and you can get involved in long conversations. Watch out for the eyes glazing over though, most do not actually want an in depth discussion, they are just making conversation on a current topic you are likely to have in common. > This is the >first year I have ever had this sort of discussion. I got the impression >that the customers were looking for assurance that the honey was not >contaminated. I don't know whether they would have bought the honey if it >had been contaminated The very use of the word contaminated is laden with negative implications. You and I both would be reluctant to buy anything deemed contaminated, before we had even heard with what. > >It seems to me that hiding the truth and deceiving the public has got GM >companies a bad reputation and it would seem that some beekeepers are intent >on following their example. If you are going to say things like that you had better be prepared to name names and state your case. I know of no-one, friend and foe alike, who is in any way meeting your description. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Swarm Trap Lures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > ...eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog, ... If that works for you. But seriously the method was used by Butler a beekeeper from around the turn of the century. It works well, just needs a little more frequent application than commercial lures. This isn't something I concocted on my own, yet has been around along time. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:41:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry to post twice on this issue, but I just recieved an email with an attachment from Heilyser Tech, who manufactures an oxalic acid vaporizor. It contains, in English, some of the data mentioned in the last post: > "from 95 beekeepers from seven European countries tested the Varrox® > evaporator of the company Andermatt BIO CONTROL AG. The data of altogether > 1,509 treated bee colonies were entered and analysed. In the field test > altogether 797,744 mites and 197,169 bees were counted..." > I doubt that the listserver will handle an attachment, so if anyone wishes to email me privately, I'll send it directly. Based on the information contained in the document, it looks as if oxalic acid vaporization is very effective, and leaves no residues above normal background levels. Cheers, Todd Fillmore Shrewsbury, Vt signguy@sover.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Acarine (Trachael) Mites Peter Dillon has been asking about using formic or oxalic acid to treat acarine mites. I recall that Peter keeps bees in France. I wonder whether it is advisable to even treat for acarine mites? I only run about 125 hives, but have not treated for tracheal mites in 4 years. Combining losses from last winter and this summer, I think I may have lost 3 hives to tracheal mites and consider that 'good riddance' to those without genetic resistance. Resistance is widespread in the US, and I know few beekeepers who still treat. Of those I personally know they fall into one of two categories: 1. Novices who are 'sold' by catalogs, and do not read the literature and attend meetings of bee clubs. 2. Commercial guys who 'load' their hives with all kinds of junk because they want to collect honey (read that as 'money') and not bother 'keeping' bees. (These are the guys who brought us mites resistant to Terramyacin, and someday will ruin the honey market with their increasing use of illegal chemicals.) I know dozens of beekeepers with 10-1500 hives who have stopped treatments and are only realizing minor losses. But if one must treat, why not use plain patties made from cooking oil and sugar? They are 100% effective, 100% safe, and very inexpensive. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:13:31 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillion asked: > But whilst using Oxalic against Varroa, how and when would one > treat against Acarine mites? Is it possible to use this acid in > the presence of other materials, or is there going to be a > reaction and therefore a result that is possibly detrimental > to the colony/ beekeeper/ crop? A very good question. Neither is approved for use in the USA yet, so I hadn't yet thought about it. We who restore and rally old sports cars know that Oxalic Acid is very good at removing rust from brake cylinders and other metal parts, so this is not a "weak" acid at all. One can reasonably conclude that something that takes rust off metal will has some serious impact on anything it touches in a beehive. Since both Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid create fumes that you are warned to avoid, and both are corrosives, it should be obvious that the fumes of either will "burn" mucous membranes and other "soft tissues". But what in your hive could be considered "soft tissues"? a) Eggs b) Larvae c) Newly-emerged bees, who's exoskeletons are still soft ...and it appears that even adult bees have some "soft tissues", since there is a risk of queen loss: http://www.mitegone.com/forms/faq.pdf "10. Should I expect queen losses when treating with Formic Acid? Queen loses and damage to the hive were observed with the use of 85% acid and in colonies with old queens. With the use of 65% acid and less than year old queens, we have experienced no queen losses due to Formic Acid applications in six years. Keep in mind that during the spring treatment, a lost queen can easily be replaced." (I do not want to "pick on" the Mitegone folks. They should get considerable credit for being honest about the risks of high concentrations of acid. They even ask customers to sign a waiver disclaiming any/all liability, which should be a big warning that there is considerable risk involved. One can read it here http://www.mitegone.com/forms/customerwaiver.pdf ) But you asked about Oxalic Acid. Heating Oxalic Acid with a heating coil will first melt the crystals, then boil the liquid and make a steam (vapor particles) of Oxalic Acid solution, which is going to float around the hive, land on things, and react with them. (By "react", I mean burn the heck out of whatever it touches. By "burn" I mean that it is both hot AND and acid, so it is two burns in one.) This is much "worse" than the case with formic acid. With formic acid, there are no superheated acid vapors. The "shop towel approach" works at ambient temperatures. The two chemicals are really very similar. In fact, Oxalic Acid when it oxidizes, MAKES FORMIC ACID!!! To quote a standard chemistry reference: "Oxalic Acid - Decomposition products include carbon monoxide & formic acid" This makes me wonder how there would be much difference between the two "treatments". Formic Acid is one of the simplest acids you can find. (Hey, if ants can make it, it must be simple.) The equation for Formic is "H2C02" (the "2"s should be subscripted) The structure looks like this (switch your font to courier if the diagram below does not have the "O" directly above the "C", or you will not be able to make sense of ANY of the following): O " H-C-O-H Everything is a "single bond", except for the Carbon-Oxygen bond, which is a "double bond". So, let's oxidize some Formic Acid, just like we did on the blackboard in school... HHCOO + 02 + (heat) => What? We can rewrite this as: HHCOO + OO + OO + (heat) => What? Now, I gave you two O2s rather than one in the line above, because I'm going to do a simple "accounting" for how things combine: HHCOO + OO + OO + (heat) => What? COO 1 CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) H OO 1 H2O (Water) H OO 1 H2O (Water) In the "accounting" above, I am showing where each atom goes. (Chemistry is mostly bookkeeping) Hey, that looks pretty harmless, doesn't it? A little carbon dioxide and water never hurt anyone, did it? Well, it IS going to hurt when it "steals" those oxygens from you, rather than the air. That's the burning sensation you get when you get a whiff of acid. It is oxidizing in contact with YOU, and doing damage in the process. Now let's look at Oxalic Acid: The equation for Oxalic Acid is "H2C2O4", and the structure looks like this: O O " " HO-C--C-OH So you have two carbons in Oxalic Acid, versus one in Formic Acid. You also have two "double bonds" (between the Carbons and the Oxygens), which is part of why you need a "hot plate" to break down Oxalic, and don't need one to break down Formic Acid. Let's play the same blackboard game with Oxalic Acid, given that we know it will make Formic Acid and Carbon Monoxide: H2C2O4 + O2 + (heat) => What? H2C2O4 = HH CC OOOOOO => What? H2CO2 = HH C OO = Formic Acid CO = C O = Carbon Monoxide O2 = OO = Oxygen O = O = 1/2 an Oxygen In the above, what happens to the "extra O" that we are calling "1/2 an oxygen"? It will combine with an "extra O" from a second identical reaction to make a "full" oxygen. (We should only write such equations with 2 Oxalic Acids and two oxygens, to have a "balanced chemical reaction", but I'm not going to worry about stoichiometry until I've had more coffee!!!) So, what can we conclude from all this? 1) If Oxalic Acid's direct decomposition product is Formic Acid, can we say that they work "the same"? Nope, because we heated things up more when using Oxalic, and we made tiny droplets of liquid Oxalic Acid that got everywhere. When using Formic, no superheated vapor is going to be floating around. 2) Since Oxalic Acid breaks down into Formic Acid, did we do twice as much "damage" to mites? You could conclude that, since Oxalic Acid will oxidize to Formic Acid, which will then oxidize to CO2 and water. 3) But Oxalic Acid would then also "oxidize twice" and hurt eggs, larvae, and newly hatched bees "twice as much" as Formic? Yes, you could say that. The bees can't dodge the Oxalic Acid droplets. If one does damage to the mites, one has a good chance of also hurting bees. 4) Then why is anyone promoting Oxalic Acid? Why not just use Formic Acid, and be done with it? Good question! Oxalic Acid has a melting point of 215 F, so it is a solid at room temperature. Formic Acid has a melting point of 47 F, so it is a liquid at room temperature. It seems that Oxalic Acid is simply a "safer" way to transport "Formic Acid", since until you heat it, it stays a solid. Soilds don't "leak". Liquids can. 5) But I need to buy a "hot plate" to use Oxalic Acid... Exactly. They sell you something, and make money on the gizmo. They can't make much money selling the acid, can they? 6) But what about reactions with other things I might put in the hive at the same time, like menthol? Oh, wow... have you seen the chemical equation for menthol? It is C10H20O. That's ten carbons, twenty Hydrogens and an oxygen. I'm not going to try to diagram THAT in ascii characters!!! 7) But if I used Formic rather than Oxalic, won't I reduce the risk of having an unexpected reaction, given that I avoided one of the two oxidations, and completely avoided introducing "super-heated vaporized particles" into the hive? YES!!!! 8) So why would anyone use Oxalic Acid? Why not just use Formic? Maybe because many beekeepers don't remember their chemistry. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:46:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > "from 95 beekeepers from seven European countries tested the Varrox® evaporator of the company Andermatt BIO CONTROL AG. The data of altogether 1,509 treated bee colonies were entered and analysed. In the field test altogether 797,744 mites and 197,169 bees were counted..." > I doubt that the listserver will handle an attachment, so if anyone wishes to email me privately, I'll send it directly. The document is at http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't profess to know the inner chemical workings of oxalic vs. formic acid treatments, but oxalic acid vapor seems a worthwhile experiment. If the guy that machines the vaporizer is true to his word (and he should be, if he wants to sell more vaporizers) then the following should be true: 1) It takes about three minutes per hive, handling dry (crystalline) acid, as opposed to obviously more hazardous liquid formic. 2) the oxalic vapor system delivers a precise quantity of acid, as opposed to formic, which depends heavily on temperatures (vapor pressure), and can vary widely. 3) He states emphatically that there is no observable stress or mortality: bees go about their business quite as usual immediately after treatment. He also states that he's been using this system for some time, with no apparent negative effects. Bear in mind that the vapor travels through a plastic hose, cooling considerably before entering the hive. If there is minor stress on the hive, it would seem that it is considerably less than that created by the varroa, and eventual collapse. Consider also that fluvalinate is a synthetic pyrethroid, which is *lethal* to insects in sufficient quantity. The Apistan strips were engineered to release slowly, administering a small enough dose to be non-lethal to bees, but lethal to mites. I would guess that even at these low doses, there *must* be a small amount of stress to the bees. Of the oxalic acid trickle and spray studies that I have seen, which are much less predictable than vapor, the GST levels (which apparently indicate stress in bees) were essentially normal even after oxalic acid trickle treatments, which are ostensibly the least accurate delivery system of the three. 4) The most significant indications of any damage from oxalic acid treatments of any kind seem strictly related to trickle treatments which were oxalic acid/sugar solutions being ingested by the bees. Logically, in such large quantities, the softer inner tissues would sustain some damage. 5) One can purchase oxalic acid crystals easily and cheaply - contrasted with formic acid, which would require me to drive four hours to purchase more than I would ever need. To me, for the cost of $59, the vaporizer seems a worthwhile experiment. 6) Oxalic acid vapor can be used in a much wider latitude of temperatures (down to 33 deg F), as opposed to formic, which is very fussy about temps. The recommended fall treatment is late (for Vermont) - around Nov. 25, which targets broodless conditions, when it's most effective. In conditions of sealed brood, a second treatment can follow as soon as 7 days, but 14 is recommended. 7) Analysis of oxalic acid content in spring honey after winter treatment shows no accumulation of oxalic acid above background levels. Oddly, as the test dosage was increased, the measurable levels of oxalic acid in honey decreased. (?) Also, since the acid is water, and not fat soluble, it does not affect wax. 8) In theory, since treatments are so simple and quick, in addition to spring, one could treat between major nectar flows to keep summer populations in check, facilitating the late November treatment. A mid-winter treatment can also be administered, for a total of four more or less evenly spaced treatments. James Fischer wrote: > ...They sell you something, and > make money on the gizmo. They can't make > much money selling the acid, can they? If any sort of conspiracy theories were to be thrown about, I would wonder aloud why so many (expensive) synthetic pesticides have been approved for apiary use, and so few (inexpensive) organic techniques (such as formic, oxalic, etc.)? The argument about formic acid's perils to beekeepers rings hollow - one can buy a multitude of very hazardous chemicals (like muriatic acid, pool chlorine, or diazinon) with no knowledge or credentials - just cash. I'm not advocating anything, but am looking for answers, and safe, simple, effective treatment, just like everyone else, and felt the need to throw in my meager 1.4 cents worth. I feel that we're unlikely to know anything without trying an experiment or two. Sorry for the long post :) Regards, Todd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > 8) So why would anyone use Oxalic Acid? > Why not just use Formic? > Maybe because many beekeepers don't remember > their chemistry. Good chemistry lesson but missed some keys factors and that is concentration, amount and duration of application along with the application method, so it is not a valid comparison. There is a difference in sipping vinegar or sipping glacial acetic acid even though both are the same chemical. The same with a drop of acid compared to a teaspoon full. Or the same acid at the same concentration in contact with a substance for a minute compared to an hour. To have a valid comparison you have to take the amounts, concentration, application method and duration of application along with the reactions involved with the specific chemical. Also, a small point, but how a chemical reacts with a substance, be it rust or glass is not necessarily an indicator of strength or danger. Many concentrated and dangerous acids can be stored safely in glass yet they are extremely dangerous. HF cannot, yet it can be stored in plastic. Spill some 70% HCl on you and wash immediately with water and you will be acid burned, and that is all, but do the same with HF (the one you can keep in plastic) and you can and probably will die. Some acids will clean up rust and leave the metal alone, some will take on both, and some neither. All depends on the chemistry involved. None of this is meant to imply Oxalic Acid is not dangerous. My only point is that the differences in application methods and duration make it difficult to compare the two, even if you go "peaches to nectarines" (vice apples to oranges which is oxalic acid vapor vrs formic acid liquid) which would be the formic acid treatment and oxalic acid drip. Even there, amounts, concentration and time are different even in the same treatment. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:02:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid In-Reply-To: <01C26616.E9C6D1B0.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <01C26616.E9C6D1B0.jfischer@supercollider.com>, James Fischer writes > > HHCOO + OO + OO + (heat) => What? > COO 1 CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) > H OO 1 H2O (Water) > H OO 1 H2O (Water) > >In the "accounting" above, I am showing where >each atom goes. (Chemistry is mostly bookkeeping) I think sacking the bookkeeper could be in order. I do not know what HO2 is, but that is what you have made instead of H2O. Possibly you meant something else but my brain is tired at this time of night. I couldnt figure out why you needed the O2 unless it is 'borrowed' in the reaction then given back. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:04:02 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Acarine (Trachael) Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who have commented on Oxalic Acid thread - very informative - even Jim's Chem. lesson brought back memories of my time teaching Chem. during the 1980's! Also, Lloyd, You are quite correct - I am still here in France, and thankfully during the last 12 years, I have never had to treat against an Acarine infestation. But my questions arise from the wish to point out that when certain procedures are being pushed, somebody somewhere is going to mix treatments. With this in mind, I wished for clarification of use regarding a potentially hazardous substance. Some beekeepers are of the mind set that nearly anything goes! I foresaw the problem of individuals using Oxalic Acid and then thinking about Acarine. From this situation the logical thing to ask is - to treat now, later or before the Oxalic Acid treatment? Better to be wised up to the situation! Your final comment gives a possible technique. Regards, Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:28:08 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Acarine (Trachael) Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLoyd, having followed Bee-L for a fair period of time now, your comment: "Resistance is widespread in the US, and I know few beekeepers who still treat." relating to Acarine came as a surprise. Reading bee mags., visiting various gov't. apicultural sites and the noting posted advice, plus the many comments on this mailing list does not suggest to me that resistance is widespread - presuming that you meant widely present in the bee gene pool and not just existing over an extensive area. Am I totally blind (admitted, sight from this side of the Atlantic is difficult to ensure 10/10) in thinking that major losses occur when preventative treatments are omitted? What are the thoughts from Canadian side of the border? Waiting to be told that I am blind!! Regards Peter Parc Naturel de la Brenne Centre West France ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor had the good sense to read Bee-L in the evening rather than early morning, and noticed a massive error: > I think sacking the bookkeeper could be in order. I do not know what > HO2 is, but that is what you have made instead of H2O. Wow, what an error! Thanks, Murray! The "accounting" for Formic oxidation SHOULD be as follows: HHCOO + OO + heat) => What? COO 1 CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) HH O 1 H2O (Water) O 1/2 an Oxygen, to combine with another 1/2 Oxygen from another of the "same" reaction. jim (a caffeine-based lifeform, who clearly should not do ANYTHING before a second cup of coffee!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:43:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Formic Acid and Oxalic Acid > 1) It takes about three minutes per hive, handling dry (crystalline) acid, > as opposed to obviously more hazardous liquid formic. Oxalic acid is very hazardous in its dry form due to the risk of inhaling dust from it. Presumably, vaporising it is extremely hazardous. Once dissolved in water the hazard is removed. Safety datasheet here: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/OX/oxalic_acid_dihydrate.html Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:27:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you use the google.com search engine and enter oxalic acid vaporizer you will get many web sites. One of these is mentions that Austria is the first country in the EU (European Union) to approve Oxalic Acid for the treatment of Varroa Mites. Other countries are expected to follow. Regards, Ralph ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 16:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Honey & Tooth Decay? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have (I think) an unusual question. I've read bits of information = here and there that seem to indicate that honey should be either = neutral, or perhaps even beneficial to teeth. I'm wondering what the general state of dental health is within the = beekeeping community; especially those who have consumed large = quantities over the years. Anyone care to comment? Just wondering aloud. Regards, Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:18:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott Jeffreys Subject: Re: Honey & Tooth Decay? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi , My dentist said that honey is tough on the teeth because it tenaciously sticks to your teeth and allows more time for it to decay. Regards, Scott