From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:38:25 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B0848F04 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sC010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0210C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 191653 Lines: 4242 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:01:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Pollen Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Lloyd: >I am not willing to spend the time making up the information, fair enough >and also suspect that there are very few do-it-yourselfers interested in making this kind of a Cadillac product. maybe I’m one of the very few, but I suspect that isn't the case. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:58:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Bee Escapes Hello Tim... Thanks for the suggestions. We do get hot summers, but no where near the temps in the South. We are also right on the ocean (sealevel), only 100mi from Seatle,WA, so we never really get above 85F for more than a few days at a time. Also, our humidity levels are no where near what is found in the East and South, again I attribute this to Ocean Breezes... thank god!! I never thought of the weather as a contributing factor, I think I'll try your suggestions with a single hive next season!! Many thanms again. Cheers, Mark Walker Vancouver, BC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit , Peter wrote: > I am sorry if I have stirred something up here. I think that it is > worth the effort to uncover the truth, no matter how unsavory. I enjoy your posts. Stirring things up makes for excellent discussion as long as we all respect each others view points. This post is about the use and history of strips. Enough have been said already about why certain beekeepers would rather not use chemicals. Peter wrote; The truth is, honey has pesticides in it, even if you are not using them, > because of the sad state of our environment. The good news is that > the amount is minuscule, only of major concern to people who > entertain the notion of absolute purity (which doesn't exist). Peter is correct. The above has been pointed out many times by Jerry B. from *his* own research. When a person does beekeeping for a living you can not take many chances. You need to go with what works. One wrong choice can cost big bucks and also put you out of business. Looking back the results and problems brought on by the use of both apistan and checkmite were exactly as both manufacturers said they would be as far as control and contamination. We did see a certain amount of drone sterilization with apistan and some queen rearing problems with checkmite which were not anticipated. . The bees which were found resistant to choumaphos in the northeast were traced back to a illegal use of a liquid dip. One ignorant beekeeper causing problems for all of us. Both the manufacturers of Apistan (zoe-con) and checkmite (Bayer) had warned at national meetings that we would loose both if misuse was involved. Looking back U.S. beekeepers were in a lose lose situation because we never were given two chemicals to alternate with. The U.S. varroa problem was handled exactly like the problem was handled in Europe. *Use one chemical till varroa become resistant , then switch to another chemical till the varroa become resistant * The USDA did come up with Russian queens and SMR so they have done the best they could. Getting chemicals registered for use in beekeeping can be traced back to the needs of large beekeepers. Without the large beekeepers needing Apistan or checkmite neither would ever have been registered. I have tried to explain about the use of strips in the U.S. . Arms were never twisted to use strips. Like it or not those not using strips but *organic* controls are less than 1 % of the U.S. beekeeping industry in my opinion from talking to others in the industry and researchers. I never met a beekeeper which liked the idea of putting a chemical in a beehive. I never met a orchard grower which enjoyed spraying dangerous chemicals on his orchard. The person spraying is in a hundred times the danger from contamination than the consumer eating a grocery store apple. You simply can not grow a couple hundred acres of apples without spray and stay in business . The number of orchards has dropped from 17 apple orchards to five in our area. With apples selling below the cost of production, cost of chemicals and the dangers of chemical spraying the other 12 have quit the orchard business. Agriculture is a tough place to make a living. I have never seen anything in print or heard talked about the danger of inhaling coumaphos powder from checkmite strips. The powder is airborne at times when pulling the stuck together strips apart. At least a dust mask should be worn. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:32:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Question concerning production of round sections Mark asked why his bees refused to draw foundation in Ross Round supers, although they were willing to do so in cut comb supers. Two previous answers said that the primary reason was because the bees were not sufficiently crowded. I agree. In fact, one of the primary ways I recognize a 'true expert' is whether a beekeeper can consistently produce Ross Rounds above two brood boxes! That said, no commercial beekeeper that I know produces any kind of comb sections above more than one brood box. It is just easier that way. On the other hand, all the commercial cut comb producers I know produce cut comb on top of 2 brood boxes or 2 brood boxes plus a super. Again, it is easiest to produce cut comb that way. To reduce whole chapters to a few words, large-scale successful production of section comb honey calls for: 1. Spring hive buildup in at least two deep brood boxes, with three being better. 2. Reduction of the hive from 2-3 brood boxes to one when a major flow begins or just after. 3. Use of a queen that has not been over wintered. (Many producers start their comb honey hives from spring nucs, others change the queen when the hive is reduced to a single brood box.) DO NOT use a queen excluder. Unnecessary (with Ross Rounds) and actually harmful to swarm control measures. While there are a host of sub-titles I have not dealt with (such as, what to do with excess brood and bees when the hive is reduced; how to introduce a new queen to a hive that has been reduced from 3 brood boxes to 1; additional swarm control measures; etc.) hobbyists will be most successful if they also follow the above four principles. Alternatively, and perhaps most simply, hobbyists can have reasonable success if they produce Ross Round sections above a 1 1/2 story hive. By allowing more room, this reduces (not eliminates)the need for swarm control and the beekeeper trauma associated with reducing a booming hive to a single brood box. See http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/months/99may/99may.htm for more details. If that link does not work try http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture. From there select Archives, then May, 1999, then the two articles on comb honey production. I hope this helps. Every hobbyist should produce comb honey as nothing else (except possibly queen production) teaches a person more about becoming a beekeeper instead of a bee-haver. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:17:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Truesdell Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As is usual in these pesticide discussions, the original question is lost. The post did say that strips were used properly, after the honey flow and supers removed. The answer is that if you do everything by the book, you can sell your honey with no real worry about pesticide contamination. If that is not true, then everyone on this list best stop selling honey or wax. Check Jerry's research and you will see that bees bring lots of stuff back to the hive with little involvement of the beekeeper. If we are looking for an absolutely pure product, where no foreign substances are detectable, then science has done us in, because it continually lowers the threshold of detection. Everyone's honey and wax are "contaminated", even if you never opened the hive. Bill Truesdell B ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Pollen stores Todd asks about strains of bees storing pollen under honey. Frankly, I thought all Apis Mellifera did so. I understood that the honey acted as a anti-bacteria agent, protecting the pollen. Being full of protein, bacteria just love the stuff. Pollen stored under honey can be hard to see (until one knows what to look for). Hold a frame up the light, and it is readily visible. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Hive Colors and paints (was bee escapes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Eisele wrote: >This year, I painted most of my supers dark green instead of white, so >that the sun would warm them quickly in the morning. This seems to have >done the trick... I live in central Vermont, where the weather varies widely (-35f to around 95f). Summers can be cool, so I paint my hives a variety of colors, mostly mid-tones, which are considerably darker than white. The temperature difference between hives painted these colors vs. white is striking on a sunny, cool day, but the midtones are not so dark as to create a problem on the occasional hot days. I own a small sign shop, and frequently use mis-mixed paint from our local paint store to paint the backs of signs. It's cheap, since it's not in demand, and can often be had in 5 gal containers. Generally, when you mix a bunch of colors together, you wind up with a gray with tinges of red, or sometimes blue. The colors are usually pleasant to the eye. This mis-mixed paint is an excellent way to paint hives. If you have an option, use 100% acrylic latex paint, and prime first with 100% acrylic latex. The finish will last much longer if you lightly sand the hive bodies first with 60 grit paper - the primer and top coat grab much better. An alternative to primer & paint is latex or oil stains. Although faster, these finishes do not hold up as well, since they are basically thinned, self priming versions of paints, and have lower solids contents - it's the solids and resins that create the protective barrier. 100% acrylic latex paints have some major advantages over older latexes (which often contain vinyl compounds) and oil base. The acrylic resins are all but immune to U.V., which is the killer of lesser paints. They also stay flexible and permeable, which helps the finish and the wood last longer. Some of the very best paints (in my experience) are California Paints, Benjamin Moore, and Cabot. There are many others, but I have found these to be generally excellent. This is probably more than anyone wanted to know about paints :) Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:20:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive Colors and paints (was bee escapes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: >I live in central Vermont, where the weather varies widely (-35f to around >95f). Summers can be cool, so I paint my hives a variety of colors, mostly >mid-tones, which are considerably darker than white. The temperature >difference between hives painted these colors vs. white is striking on a >sunny, cool day, but the midtones are not so dark as to create a problem on >the occasional hot days. > I paint mine dark blue since that is the shade left over from the many different shades our garage doors were painted ( to go with the house colors which seems to vary with the season. Wife keeps me busy and Sears prospers). In Maine in my area we seldom have more than a few days of over 90F and it is usually low 80s or 70s. There do not seem to be any ill effects either in summer or winter. I still have some bodies painted white so there is a basis for comparison. Been painting them dark for many years. There have been studies of dark painted hives in relation to varroa control but not much came of it. I painted them because that was the best way to get rid of all that garage door paint. One feature that is nice is that the hives are not visible from the road, compared to white hives which stand out. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:41:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Question concerning production of round sections In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lloyd wrote about comb honey... Can i ask an odd question: how is comb honey consumed? Do you eat it all, including the wax? Over here in Sweden, i have seen comb honey sections once, but never eaten it. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Question concerning production of round sections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: >Lloyd wrote about comb honey... > >Can i ask an odd question: how is comb honey consumed? Do you eat it all, >including the wax? Over here in Sweden, i have seen comb honey sections >once, but never eaten it. > > You should get a variety of answers since it is more an individual preference. Some take a chunk and eat it all, some chew on it to get out the honey and then use the wax like chewing gum. Some spread it on toast and eat it all. Generally those who buy it are older and remember it from the days they had it as a normal table item. Younger people buy it for the novelty and ask the same question you did and get the same answer I gave (which I learned from the older people who buy it, since I asked them). I like to use it like chewing gum. I was told it was the model for chewing gum since it preceded chewing gum by thousand of years both for enjoyment and rendering wax. At the fair where our State Chapter sold honey, combs usually sell well. Even better is cut comb where blocks of comb are immersed in a jar of honey. Both demand premium prices. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:13:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Have now put lid with hanging multiple combs as sample into freezer for filming in a few days. Have seen two different cutouts this way but decided to start filming when I saw the second. Now looking for a third, etc to get a series for filming to make sure no fluk so no one can say it's a one shot deal! Center comb appears to be non-directional so no matter how put in the bees can use it on each side going out from center depending upon how the light goes from center comb to entrance. (two samples I have are from cavities) Still have word out to ranches for more cutdowns for free hanging swarms and have located a few I will try to get to. I will now film with video and micro lens so I can get into bottom of cells to show positioning of centers of cells.With video I can film all combs, right now three and then zoom into the center to show it and how combs look.that way no one can say I just layed combs on scanner for pictures. I can with video show all combs where hanging from and then single out the ones to show to document the positioning.Hope to be filming for several months as I do cutouts now to get multiple examples. So far with entrances the way they are I got 2 out of 4 to film so odds are I will have more. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jennings mcavoy Subject: NORTHERN OHIO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I FINISHED EXTRACTING END OF SEPTEMBER CLEANED AND STORED MY SUPERS GOT1200# OUT OF 14 COLONIES SOLD HONEY BULK AT 1.47PD. HOW DID YOU DO Jennings McAvoy 2420 brownhelm station rd vermilion ohio (440)967-0970 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:30:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hi Nathan Like you this is my first year of beekeeping and like you my first stings were nothing at all to write home about until I got 25 stings when I became quite feverish the following day and these stings were surrounded by about 5 cm of redness and swelling. Since then I've reacted in a similar way to the odd sting. This is a local allergic reaction and by itself does not lead to a hypersensitivity or anaphylactic reaction. It is possible that you will become desensitised with continuous exposure, but it is equally possible that you will continue to have these local reactions. Hypersensitivity is unusual and can occur with the second sting or at any subsequent time. Let's hope we both become desensitised! Yours Dr Ross Langlands, Scotland -- ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:30:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:56 PM 10/14/02 -0400, you wrote: >Is this something I should be concerned about? Are my reactions >likely to diminish or might they continue the current trend of >increasing in swelling and duration? I feel like I'm being a bit of >a wimp when I put my gloves on... Any wise words on stings? Always be prepared. Even testing can't always accurately predict how your next reaction will be. So get yourself an epipen (your doctor will prescribe it.) In general most people gain some tolerance, but sometimes it does go the opposite way. But just a couple of reactions doesn't mean you are getting worse. I had two reactions last year that made me pretty nervous (excessive swelling and some symptoms towards anaphalactic shock), but this year my reaction is more mild than it has ever been. Other alergens (hayfeaver, other insect bites, etc.) seemed to compound the reaction last year. I do always wear my gloves and veil as those parts seem to react much worse than the rest of my body. It may be better this year as the time or two I was stung on my hands I had virtually no reaction, but I'm not willing to take the chance yet. In short, no one knows, so be prepared. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:27:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other thing to add for new beekeepers and sensitivity to bee stings. It is possible to sensitize your family if you bring your beekeeping clothes and equipment into the house. They can have a life threatening reaction if stung. So it is best to change away from the house and store your suit and equipment away from the house. In addition, when I launder anything I wear for beekeeping, I do it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <20021015151303.37582.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Dee Lusby > Have now put lid with hanging multiple combs as sample into > freezer for filming in a few days. Hi Dee - Can you explain more exactly what type of enclosure these combs were from? You say "lid" that the combs were attached to. Are you referring to your black paper-pulp bait hives that are used all around Tucson as swarm traps which get dropped off to you? If I remember right, don't these lids have queen pheromone attached to the center of them? Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:57:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER Dee Lusby writes: Center comb appears to be non-directional so no matter how put in the bees can use it on each side going out from center depending upon how the light goes from center comb to entrance. Could you explain this? What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark beehive? pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:27:26 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Question concerning use of comb honey In-Reply-To: <3DAC2D22.8010904@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >some chew on it to get out >the honey and then use the wax like chewing gum. I keep a pottle into which I then put the gob of wax; when this stash gets big enough, it can then be melted with paraffin wax to make candles. I have no reason to think beeswax is bad to ingest, but nor do I think it's nutritious, so I reckon this is a better final fate for the excellent mouth-cleaner. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Newbie Humor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just thought I'd share a newbie moment I had recently. =20 I found I had a few extra minutes mid-day last week, so decided to put = escape boards on the last two hives I had not yet harvested. I thought = about putting all of my gear on, but decided just my pullover w/veil and = gloves would be fine - I left my worn out blue jeans on, rather than = taking an extra minute to change into my white pants. I pulled a couple = of mediums off, placed the escape board on, and noticed a bee stinging = me on the thigh. I pulled the stinger out, and smoked the area, = reaching for a super, and noticed another bee in exactly the same spot. = I repeated the process, and picked up the super. By now there were = several other bees on this obviously marked spot, all stinging me in = good shape. I managed to gently fend off the offenders, and put the = other super in place. I switched to the other hive next to it, and = noticed more volunteers stinging me on the other leg. I managed to get = the escape board on, and the supers on, and noticed a tickling sensation = in the groin area... =20 Did I mention that these old jeans were a tad on the short side? By the = time I walked five feet toward the house, I felt that sensation that I = hoped I would not feel. Fortunately, ms. bee hadn't quite made it to = the nether regions, so I was fortunate that she only stung me on the = inner thigh. In all, I guess I got stung about 8-10 times. Legs were a = bit stiff the next day, and I hobbled a bit... I think in the future, I'll stick with my white painter's pants. Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:44:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, > If I remember right, don't these lids have queen pheromone attached to the > center of them? Does this make a difference? Don't see that it would effect the bees comb drawing. Do you think it would? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:35:49 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <200210152059.g9FJNvTL025361@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark >beehive? In a move which could well turn out to be even less warm, fuzzy & popular than any of my contributions so far, I will say I'm baffled at this unanimous belief that inside a beehive is pitch dark. In daytime, enough light gets in the typical entrance that gloom, rather than blackness, prevails. Sure, 4 storeys up (failing upper entrances, wedges, shims, propped-up covers, or other sensible arrangement for ventilation which also happens to let in light) it must be pretty gloomy by our standards. But even there, an animal such as a drone which devotes so much of its surface to eyes may well be able to see far more sensitively than we can. At night, for all I know the moon and even stars may affect life near the entrance. As far as I can see it's an empirical matter. Plenty of animals can see far better than we can at night, so intercepting a couple orders of magnifude of the light flux may still leave enough for bees to make some use of. I reiterate the suggestion of flexible mini-video snoopers in hives, preferably with flexible capillaries lashed to them to sniff into a gas chromatograph (with a mass spectrometer slapped on the end of that, if we want to get a lot of science done). From what little I know of video camera sensitivity, I tentatively suppose this will work at least in daytime in the brood box without any extra lighting. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <007401c274ad$424cf860$430b17d1@net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Does this make a difference? Don't see that it would effect the bees comb > drawing. Do you think it would? Clay - Assuming these combs are from the bait hives (http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/trip/35.htm), I think it's fair to say that there is a possibility that this system would show different results than a swarm that starts completely from scratch without the pheromone and the remaining comb stubs. It certainly should be mentioned in the results as it differs from a truly "natural" hive. Surely pheromones do something to bees or it wouldn't be used. I have no idea in this case if it changes the comb positioning or sequence, but there is a way to find out. Is it not important to know all the facts about what is being reported? A more convincing comb would be one that came from a feral swarm housed in a cavity without any aids. I'm still skeptical about using combs hanging from a tree branch to support the reasoning for matching it in our box hives, when a closer match would be comb from bees living in some type of cavity where there aren't the same influences on them from nature. I'd like to see either, but especially comb from cavities. Time to build that bee vac this winter and look closer at the cut-outs next year. Does Matthew W. have any observations here? I see he has done quite a few removals over the last few years. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:21:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee escapes again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We use a different type of clearer board exit. I am getting on of my > friends who has a digital camera to take some photos as I had promised I > would get some for another beekeeper. Maybe Allen might be interested in > them. I sure would and I'm also sure that Dave would add another page to his excellent cleared board section at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clearerboards.html allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Keith G. Benson said: > > > That might help Peter, but what of the rest of us? > > At risk of sounding snide, consider your friendly > neighborhood search engine. Not snide, but you are missing the main point. Person A makes a claim, then says it has been referenced, then evades a direct request for said reference. This really isn't about search engines. Would it not seem logical that the person making an assertion, and suggesting that they have a reference, supply said reference? I know I could find the article, or something close were I to devote time (and the 15 seconds it took you to do your searches is nothing compared to the time it will take you to wade through them). But is person A already has the reference, why not post it and be done with it? > With a flip of the wrist over to Google, I find more > than I care to read on a Sunday night: In many respects your search engine excersice proves the point. How about getting back to the group after you go through them all and tell us to which one Dee was refering to. ;) If the reference was freely given, one would have to spend only moments. So your excercise in search engine use was the merest tip of the iceburg. Anyone can run a search, but without authors or other leads, the search can take up a lot of resources. I think the burden of proof of supporting evidence lies with the proponant of an idea. Call me crazy, but it makes sense on so many levels. > Not all of these will be citations to published papers, > but some of them will. Right, but we are talking about accessing the papers Dee was refering to, not every webpage with three specific words on it. There is a difference. A huge difference. > Yes, folks that work at universities have access to much better > citation search services than the rest of us, and often have better > "science-oriented" journal databases and collections of journals > than public libraries, but on the other hand, they must put up with > working for a university, which is a very high price to pay. Naaaahhh, I loved it. > As an alternative, anyone can wander into the library of most university > or community colleges, and anyone who does quickly notices that students > and staff tend to run searches on the same expensive subscription > databases that Peter has at Cornell, print the results out on a printer, > and then wander off toward the stacks in search of a few books. I have > yet to see a single person "log off" their workstation when they are done. > > Do I have to draw anyone a picture? Me, I like pictures. I would love to see a picture of a wild center comb with the appropriate "sequencing" . . . . Keith -- Keith Benson DVM Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.- Hanlon's razor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jmowat Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before I started keeping bees, I had myself checked by an allegist. I was a little sensitive to wasp venom. Not sensitive to honeybees. After two years, I was stung by a hornet and had an anaphlatic attack - numbness, hard to breath, itchyness - and had to go to the hospital. After that episode, I went back to the allergist and, guess what? I was allergic to all venom including honeybee. I have sinse read that the body can handle a few stings if that's all you get. If you receive numerous stings, you may develop a resistance to the venom. Anywhere in between and you are at risk to develop an allergy. I am now on venom therapy - three shots of pure venom every two months. It is expensive but drug plans generally cover the shots. I can now get stung with little reaction. And I've met a lot of hobby beekeepers at the allergist's office I recommend anyone who is a hobby beekeeper to get tested by an allergist. As happened to me, you can develop an allergy at any time. Jay Mowat Erin, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:59:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: NORTHERN OHIO In-Reply-To: <20021015152514.20600.qmail@web10806.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennings wrote: "I FINISHED EXTRACTING END OF SEPTEMBER CLEANED AND STORED MY SUPERS GOT1200# OUT OF 14 COLONIES SOLD HONEY BULK AT 1.47PD. HOW DID YOU DO" Well Jennings i got just about the same here in the middle of Sweden. Didn't sell it yet, though. I kinda like to have lots of honey in store to look at for a while before i start selling it. Oh, by the way, what happened to your caps lock key? Writing in all capitals makes it look like you're yelling off the top of your lungs to make yourself heard trough a powerful storm or something. /Mats ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:51:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robert writes: What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark beehive? In a move which could well turn out to be even less warm, fuzzy & popular than any of my contributions so far, I will say I'm baffled at this unanimous belief that inside a beehive is pitch dark. Robert, Well, it is far from unanimous. I suggest that many people have never thought about it, but since they only see the hive when it's open -- they don't consider that it may be dead dark in there. But certainly light is *not required* for any of the internal hive functions! There are nests deep inside tree trunks. The bees make no particular effort to find cavities where some light is admitted. Compare this to other species who nest in the open. They perform the dances on top of the comb in the light, whereas hive bees perform the dance in the dark, and translate the direction toward the sun as "up". Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:56:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I think you are making a mistake when you say that we trust scientists. Just because they have the skill to detect minute traces of things is not to be confused with trust. Scientist are in a group of people with high expectations and are therefore prone to being biased or even corrupt. Harry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 09-Oct-02 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . >Any wise words on stings? I got a sting last week under the fingernail also. Always a bad place for a sting but keep on working without a veil Nathan and maybe you will get a sting in the eyeball, on the eyelid or in the ear drum. Those in my opinion hurt worse. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:08:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is this something I should be concerned about? Are my reactions > likely to diminish or might they continue the current trend of > increasing in swelling and duration? In my experience, the swelling gets worse before it gets better. Many get a false sense of impunity when they react very little at first, then panic when the body starts to respond to the venom. Most of us who can take 100 stings over a day without any adverse effect went through something much like what you describe. Assuming it gets no worse, I predict that with continued regular stings, it will get to the point where you will sometimes not be able to see where you were stung. Maybe others will recall their experience along the road to developing sting immunity, but I have noticed this the following pattern in many employees, particularly those in extracting: 1. initial stings - little if any reaction -- false confidence 2. later occasional stings - itching, stiffness, swelling - some concern 3. multiple further stings - considerable swelling - anxiety and fear of allergy 4. quit. 5. if talked into staying - lessening further reactions. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. Comments: To: luichart.woollens@VIRGIN.NET Harry writes: Peter, I think you are making a mistake when you say that we trust scientists. Just because they have the skill to detect minute traces of things is not to be confused with trust. Scientist are in a group of people with high expectations and are therefore prone to being biased or even corrupt. Since you address me personally, I will reply. I don't know who you refer to when you say "we". I trust the EPA and the FDA to do a decent job. Not perfect, mind you, but we are a lot better off with them than we would be without them. I have been to Mexico and South America so I have seen societies that lack basic regulations for protecting the safety of citizens against greedy companies. As for scientists having high expectations -- what are you saying here? That you have low expectations? Or that people with high expectations are biased? Whatever. They're just people. Scientists as a group are no better nor worse than any other group, in my opinion. People have various motives. The principle mandate of organizations like EPA and FDA is to protect, not promote chemicals. Last month I was accused of being a Luddite; this month I am a dupe of the EPA. Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:22:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee escapes again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & (sorry I lost track of the name of the other poster) > I sure would and I'm also sure that Dave would add another page to his > excellent cleared board section at > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clearerboards.html Yes, I am prepared to publish any clearer board designs... (or any other beekeeping gadgets, if it comes to it) I believe in presenting information for others to use or discard as they will... In most cases I have no axe to grind, but I do have a few opinions of my own and usually say so if it is relevent :-) Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:45:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax. > > That might help Peter, but what of the rest of us? > > At risk of sounding snide, consider your friendly > neighborhood search engine. Not snide, but you are missing the main point. Keith underscores several issues. One, if you are going to make a statement, you should try to back it up. Two, if you are going to refer to a written piece, tell us whare it is so we can read *the whole thing*. Finally, don't kid yourself into thinking *everything* is on the internet. A great deal of excellent material does not appear on the internet, It is in books, magazines and theses. A person who gets all their info from the internet gets a very skewed picture. A lot of stuff that gets dumped on websites is junk. There are no editors to reject the BS!! pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Concern about stings Allen Dick's note to the list is EXACTLY correct, and should be understood by all. The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears the risk of heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved lives...they have also killed. During the years I was going through the stages described by Allen (I can no longer find a sting site) I carried a baggie with a small amount of baking powder. Baking powder combined with a small amount of water (just enough to keep it from falling off the skin) and applied IMMEDIATELY (say, within 10 minutes) to a site will prevent all itching and swelling. The alkaline serves to somehow offset the acid poison of the sting and prevents those symptoms (at least in me). Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination In-Reply-To: <000f01c273ff$da4c8da0$3eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bad example. There are a number (and growing) of organic apple orchards in the US. The published information I have seen shows they are doing quite well economically -- no doubt due to the higher price their product brings on the market. And they are selling for fresh consumption, not juice, where appearance is paramount (we can get several varieties locally and they look as good or better than conventionally grown apples and the taste of several is much better -- usually due to having been left on the tree to fully ripen, rather than being picked at a very green stage). > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > You simply can not grow a couple hundred acres of apples without spray and > stay in business . The number of orchards has dropped from 17 apple > orchards to five in our area. With apples selling below the cost of > production, cost of chemicals and the dangers of chemical > spraying the other > 12 have quit the orchard business. Agriculture is a tough place to make a > living. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:03:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sorry Peter, I have deleted your original message so I can't quote from it. I think you said that "they" trust scientists to measure one part per million but don't trust them to do something else. I just associated myself (and perhaps even my "brigade") with the "they" that you were talking about. I don't know what a EPA and FDA are so can't comment. I think that people with high expectations are prone to being biased. Politicians are typical of this group but they are perhaps more devious. There was quite a high profile case about the honesty of scientists in Britain some years ago. I can't remember the poor man's name but he was crucified for saying what he thought about GM potatoes. Perhaps he was just a brave scientist - perhaps naive - who knows. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:58:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd, notice that bees do not pack pollen to the top of combs but leave 1/16" or so empty. This is so they can cover the pollen with honey later, presumably to keep the pollen fresh. In the summer, I mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I organize the hive for winter. Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:56:52 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to materials being produced, investigated and then in some cases being found in honey (regardless of quantities and associated toxicity levels). The individuals involved in the above mentioned activities are scientists. In general, they are normal humans going about an activity which pleases, intrigues and advances their career. We should be able to trust their conclusions. The situation that is worrying many, is the increased dependence of these individuals on finance from bodies that have direct interest in the topics in which they are investigating. If an individual is employed by a company to research into a novel compound, is the scientific ethic of accuracy and honest reporting being put under pressure? If the person is working for an independent Gov't agency - is honesty in conclusive documents a result? History supports the following - that both the above statements have been proven to have negative responses. Relate these comments to the problem of materials being placed onto the market. Legalized BUT selective investigations have been allowed to take place. Questions that should have been investigated have not. This being so since the requirement to do so was not present. As suggested, in countries where legal requirements are lax in comparison to European, U.S. circumstances, products are used in less than ideal conditions - with the supplying companies having full knowledge that this is the case. If scientists were always allowed to report freely the knowledge gained, then one major handicap would have been removed. The public would then maybe have less suspicion regarding scientific matters. It would then be a clear choice of whether to use, apply materials that pollute honey - but at least it would be purely on economic grounds, ones not confused with the worry of wondering whether we have all the known facts. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:41:04 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith G. Benson said: >> Not snide, but you are missing the main point... ...and Peter Borst said: > Keith underscores several issues. One, if you are going to make a > statement, you should try to back it up... The only "point" I can recall (and the root cause of all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments) was a reference that Dee Lusby made to an ABJ article about residues in beeswax. Correct? I wonder if I can find the citation you want in less time than you have consumed muttering about the lack of a citation, the "proper" places to look for citations, and the "correct" way to contribute to a discussion group. Just to keep things fair, I won't use anything other than this beat-up 4-year old Palm Pilot and Google. Further, I am currently sitting in the Delta Crown Room at the Atlanta airport, so I have the additional handicaps of a semi-flaky wireless connection, no reference materials at hand, and a temptingly large supply of (free!) Glenfiddich within easy reach. My plane home boards in 20 minutes. I've had two drinks, and have started on a third... Am I worried? Not even a tiny little bit! Nothing up my sleeves, and at no time will my fingers leave my hands... Hours Mins Seconds Activities and Comments ------------- ------------------------------------ 00:00:01 I enter the terms "Wax contamination" and "American Bee Journal" into Google. 00:00:02 Google yields 153 hits, which you can see here http://www.google.com/search?q=Wax+contamination+%22American+Bee+Journal 00:00:04 The second item is something from APIS, http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjun_2000.htm and Malcom Sanford is known for being accurate and conservative in his newsletter. A 100% crud-free zone. It says: "...Wax contamination has become a serious problem in Europe, but there are no studies on this phenomenon in the United States to my knowledge < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis96/apaug96.htm#1 > Nevertheless, there is continuing information that sublethal doses of pesticides in colonies may have long-term adverse consequences < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjan_2000.htm#2 > 00:00:08 Interesting. Let's check out Dr. Sandford's first link http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis96/apaug96.htm#1 (Thank the Lord for giving us cut-and-paste, cause all I have is this little stylus and a screen no larger than my coaster...) "Ever since beekeepers began using pesticides inside living bee colonies (see December 1987 APIS), there have been concerns voiced about colony contamination. Most had to do with honey; these are reduced considerably now with appropriate use of Apistan(R). Few, however, considered the possible effect of long- term widespread use of the contact pesticide fluvalinate on the beeswax supply. No longer is this the case. Writing in the same issue of BEE BIZ as Mr. Allen (p. 4) about the 1995 Apimondia meeting in Lausanne, Switzerland, Clive de Bruyn reported that high residue levels of fluvalinate have been found in beeswax. Because of the nature of the molecule, he concluded, it bonds with the wax, making it almost unremovable. The Australian Bee Journal (quoted from June 1996 Bee Culture, p. 376) says virtually every kilogram of European wax is contaminated, most likely because of recycling fluvalinate-impregnated wax for foundation. European beekeepers, therefore, are examining their beeswax more closely than in the past, and not using heavily contaminated product for foundation. Dr. Peter Rosenkranz, University of Hohenheim reported at the Fifth Ibero Latin American Beekeeping Congress in Mercedes, Uruguay (June 1, 1996) that residues from two to 20 milligrams of fluvalinate per kilogram of beeswax have been found. He says these levels might be enough to cause pesticide resistance to develop in Varroa. Mr. de Bruyn says that so much resistance can already be seen in certain districts of Italy, France and Germany that beekeepers are being advised to abandon all pyrethroids (chemical relatives of fluvalinate) in favor of other chemicals. If levels of fluvalinate get too high, might there not be concern that the honey bees themselves will be poisoned by the chemical designed to rid them of Varroa (see April 1992 APIS)? There is some hope that beeswax from places that don't have Varroa would dilute the worldwide supply, according to the Australian Bee Journal, as referenced in Bee Culture. However, it concludes that a return to fluvalinate- free wax, would take an estimated fifty years, provided there was no chemical usage for that time period." 00:00:36 Let's also look at the other link provided by Dr. Sanford < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjan_2000.htm#2 > "Dr. Currie says that queen mortality and supersedure increases shown by the study require consumers to have to purchase from 40 to 52-percent more replacement queens than if tabs were not employed. Given this and the fact that they do not ensure mite-free replacement queens, he does not recommend their continued use. The results presented here provide further evidence that fluvalinate may indeed be responsible for so-called "queen problems" beekeepers have seen in the recent past. The drone situation appears to also somewhat reflect that of queens. Dr. T. Rinderer and colleagues at the Baton Rouge Bee Laboratory studied the ' effect of fluvalinate (Apistan) on developing drones (American Bee Journal, Vol. 139 (1999), No. 2, pp. 134-139. Although the number of drones produced was no different, survival varied significantly. Drones emerging from control colonies where fluvalinate had not been applied were mostly alive (97.5 percent), but those from colonies treated with Apistan registered a lower (86.1 percent) survival ratio." 00:00:43 So far, we have quite a few citations that appear to support Dee's statement, and one that I suspect is the exact citation at issue, but let's continue... The 6th item looks interesting, since it appears to be a citation to a paper... http://www.auth.gr/agro/beelab/gr/search_pub_con.htm Ohhhh... lookie here... we hit a rich vein of pay-dirt... "Residues 1. Thrasyvoulou A, M. Ifantidis, N. Pappas, K. Simmons (1985). Malathion residus in Greek honey. Apidologie 16(1):89-94. 2. Thrasyvoulou A. and Pappas N (1988). Contamination of honey and wax with malathion an coumaphos used against the Varroa mite. J. Apic. Res. 27(1):55-61 3. Tsigouri, A., O. Menkisoglou and A. Thrasyvoulou, (1997), Fluvalinate persistence in honey, Programme and summaries of the reports of the XXXVth International Apicultural Congress, pp. 96-97, Antwerp, Belgium 1-6/9/1997. 4. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi, G. Diamantidis, V.Georgiou, A. Thrasyvoulou (2000) Determination of malathion, coumaphos and fluvalinate residues in honey by gas chromatography with nitrogen-phosphorus or electron capture detectors J. AOAC Int 83(1):178-182 5. Tsigouri A, O.Menkissoglu-Spiroudi, G. Diamantidis, A. Thrasyvoulou (2000) Determenation of fluvalinate residues in beeswax by gas chromatography with electron-capture detection. J. AOAC Int 83(5): 1225-1228 6. Tsigouri A. Menkissoglu S., Diamantidis,. & A. Thrasyvoulou (2001) The fate of the Varroacide fluvalinate in honey and wax J. A.O.A.C (accepted date 20/11/99) 7. Tsigouri A, U. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi & A. Thrasyvoulou (2001) Study of tau- fluvalinate persistence in honey. Pest Management Sci 57:467-471 8. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi U. A.D. Tsigouri, Gr C. Diamantidis and A.T. Thrasyvoulou (2001) Residues in honey and beeswax caused by beekeeping treatments. Fresenius Environmental Bulletin 10(5):445-450" 00:00:56 I'm gonna declare a winner at this point. It seems reasonable to conclude that the article that Dee referred to was one she read in Bee Culture and/or in the AUSTRALIAN Bee Journal rather than the American Bee Journal. You can now go get the June 1996 issue of Bee Culture, and read the article. Regardless of what Dee read or not, we have a number of interesting citations that can be instructive in evaluating the claim that residues from "treatments" can show up in beeswax. It appears on the surface that they can and do. If you don't agree, we can continue down the list of Google hits, do more searches, or even (gasp!) trot down to the library tomorrow, as I suggested before. Rather than arguing and posturing over side-issues and semantics, or lecturing all and sundry on "how to post to a discussion list", why not take a hint now and again? Why do you think I take the time to give such hints when I could be reading a good book? 00:01:42 Now I just press "send", and I can go back to reading my book... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd & All, Lloyd wrote: The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears the risk of heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved lives...they have also killed. I made a few phone calls and believe Lloyds doctor is incorrect in his thinking. As a person which has seen anaphylaxis first hand I feel (as did those I questioned) that the risk of death was far greater from anaphylaxis than heart attack. The EpiPen is the only method of saving the person's life other than a trac. As a young beekeeper I was shown the method to do a trac using a knife and a straw by a couple beekeepers. One had a small scar on his throat. I talked to a MD (my doctor) , EMT (my daughter) and our local hospital emergency room. I also keep animal epinephrine around. I would not hesitate to give myself a shot if I was in trouble. 0.3 mg is the dose. We are talking life versus death are we not? I posted awhile back about three employees of the Kansas City Zoo which had came to one of my yards to buy beehives for the zoo. One of the employess got stung and started into anaphylaxis. The nearest help is 30 minutes away. I had a epipen in the office but I doubt there would have been time to get the epipen. The Zoo truck had epinephrine on board. One of the zoo employees drew 0.3mg and gave the other employee a shot in the muscle of the hip. Within 5 minutes the person was breathing normally. Many people have never seen a case of anaphylaxis and never will but when anaphylaxis happens you need to think *and act* fast. I have seen three cases in farm animals. Two died and I saved one with a human epipen. Many farm vaxines (CD&T) will cause anaphylaxis in farm animals. The vet will try to shoot the animal with a tranc dart if running loose and then give a epinephrne dose. I *always* keep our animals confinned for fifteen minutes after giving vaxinations. Anaphylaxis is rare and I do not wish to scare people but does happen and one should at least be aware of the options and also the consequences of inaction. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Many of us went to plastic so we could simply remove the comb and let the bees redraw the wax if contamination values became high. People not buying wax foundation is what has driven the price of beeswax down to around one dollar a pound U.S. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:17:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen, > Bad example. There are a number (and growing) of organic apple orchards in the US. The published information I have seen shows they are doing quite well economically -- no doubt due to the higher price their product brings on the market. I am a small orchard owner and have raised and sold apples for over twenty years. I raised and sold organic for over a decade. I am in close contact with several orchards in our area. I help pollinate the largest. Niche markets will always exist. I do a niche apple market. The 200 acre orchard I used as an example is hardly a niche. Most organic orchards are very very small because of the problems of growing organic. I have been a member of the small farm movement for many years and have tried many projects from "Mother Earth" and "Organic Gardening" I will be at the Small Farm Today trade show in Columbia , Missouri on Oct. 31, Nov.1 and 2. Jerry Hayes from Dadant will also be at the show doing beekeeping seminars. Stop by and visit. I believe this will be our ninth or tenth year with a booth at the show. Michael Phillips author of "The Apple Grower" a guide for the organic orchardist (excellent book) will also be at the show. On page 5 of his book he says he has five acres with seventy varieties. Organic apple growing is clearly a niche at best. I do not dispute the health value of organic. I stand by my post. Bob Ps My son has never wanted to learn how to raise vegetables or fruit. I asked him once to come out and learn how to grow a garden and he declined. I asked what he would do if he had to grow his own vegetables? He said he would get a book. A successful mentor is better than any book. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:16:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I wrote: I trust the EPA and the FDA to do a decent job. Not perfect, mind you, but we are a lot better off with them than we would be without them. Harry said: I don't know what a EPA and FDA are so can't comment. My mistake. This being an international list I should have spelled it out. EPA stands for the Environmental Protection Agency; FDA is the Food and Drug Administration. Their effectiveness varies according to administration. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax James wrote: The only "point" I can recall (and the root cause of all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments) was a reference that Dee Lusby made to an ABJ article about residues in beeswax. Correct? There was an inquiry about the possibility of chemicals in capping wax. Nobody has given any evidence of residues in capping wax. I showed a long term study that found 5 parts per billion coumaphos in honey. This is either a great problem or a great relief, depending on your point of view. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:57:57 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. In-Reply-To: <002201c27557$b234bb40$679d4c51@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harry Goudie wrote: >There was quite a high >profile case about the honesty of scientists in Britain some years ago. I >can't remember the poor man's name but he was crucified for saying what he >thought about GM potatoes. Perhaps he was just a brave scientist - perhaps >naive - who knows. He did not mean to be particularly brave but merely to perform one of the very first tests of a GM food in the diet of a mammal . I happen to know this man, Arpad Pusztai Ph.D, and his co-author Stanley Ewen M.B. AP told his story in The Ecologist 3 y ago; see also http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/a.pusztai/ There was no issue of honesty, except that the various industry & Royal Society operatives who vilified this work were wildly unfair. The particular strain of GM-potato tested did - within 10d - harm rats eating it as a large proportion of their diet. The results were - after lengthy obstructions - pubd in The Lancet. Pusztai was already rtd from the Rowett Inst, but continuing to work there on a short-term contract. The director, one James, purged him from this employment & confiscated his records. The Inst was partly funded by Monsanto, who had said they wanted methods to be developed for testing GE foods. R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: michael palmer Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "dan hendricks" I mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I organize the hive for winter. Dan Dan, I was just wondering why you feel that you have to "organize" the hive for winter. After so many eons of time, don't the bees know how to do it themselves? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Todd, notice that bees do not pack pollen to the top of combs but leave 1/16" or so empty. This is >so they can cover the pollen with honey later, presumably to keep the pollen fresh. In the summer, I >mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I >organize the hive for winter. Dan Dan, I've got a 2-story Carniolan hive that contains at least 3 frames of mostly pollen still uncapped (as of about 10 days ago) - no honey over it, just pollen in open cells. I have seen some capped pollen under honey, but in this particular hive, most of the pollen seems to be in open cells. This hive (my first hive last year) did the same thing last fall, as opposed to my other hives, which are Russians, and seem to store pollen exclusively under honey. Is it possible that the Carniolans just collect more pollen than they can use, and can't cover it with honey? Would it be smart to pull a frame or two and freeze them for late winter/spring? Thanks, Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:59:36 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: alphabetical index of GM inforesources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://plab.ku.dk/tcbh/GMFoods01.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees Re: Racial differences among bees. I think the term race should be dropped altogether, but especially with bees. There are certain types, with characteristics, but actually, great differences occur between hives, so I would hesitate to attribute characteristics to "type" rather than individual colony. Unless you have a lot of experience with one type and can compare this with equal experience with another, I would avoid such generalizations. There are very few pure types any more, and there are a lot of hybrids with distinct characteristics, like the "Russians" or the "African Bees". If you study biology, you know that terms like species, sub-species, variety, type, are debated endlessly. With molecular biology looking for genetic differences between these categories, the water seems muddier than ever. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:53:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russians, as you call them, are Carniolans, just living in a separate region. They are called Primorsky (spelling?) Carniolans. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <000001c27572$353ff260$7bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I believe the problem to which Lloyd referred, is those that use the Epipen when the only "symptoms" are a little pain, redness or swelling. In these cases, the added epinephrine could kill (with certain underlying conditions) and will at least stress your system. Epipens save those that are experiencing shock, but are not indicated for just any "reaction" to a sting. The trick is to know the difference and still be able to use the pen when truly needed. I have an Epipen and have never used it. I have, however, had a couple of bad reactions from stings to the head ... mainly lowered blood pressure resulting in the inability to walk for a few minutes. Other stings have just left small red spots on the hand or large swellings for several days (worse on the face, of course, and if unable to get the stinger out). So far, I have been able to control my reactions with large doses of benadryl (and sudafed to counteract the drowsiness). All after discussing the situation with a doctor and having the pen on hand in case the reaction worsened. So far, I haven't had any reaction involving breathing. Of course, I now avoid being stung as much as possible -- wearing a hat in the garden to keep the critters out of my hair and always suiting up, even for minor manipulations and to mow around the hives. I've also been present when someone with a severe allergy went into shock and had trouble breathing -- despite a known problem with hornets and wasps, this person did not carry an Epipen when in areas where he could easily be exposed, then tried to continue his activities with no treatment after a sting (that only lasted about 5 minutes). He had to be carried out to a parking area, then driven to the hospital, where he got to stay for some time due to the severity of the reaction. An Epipen in such a situation could have saved much of that stay and the treatment required (although the trip to the ER would have been prudent in any case). Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > Hello Lloyd & All, > Lloyd wrote: > The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My > doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears > the risk of > heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved > lives...they have also killed. > > I made a few phone calls and believe Lloyds doctor is incorrect in his > thinking. As a person which has seen anaphylaxis first hand I feel (as did > those I questioned) that the risk of death was far greater from > anaphylaxis than heart attack. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:26:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: The Victors Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Lloyd, and all, As an ambulance medic with many years of riding in the back of the rig, I can understand both sides of the debate about the use of an EpiPen. That anaphylaxis can and does kill there can be no doubt. That there can be very serious side effects to the use of an EpiPen (including death) is also not much of a debatable topic. The key point is to recognise the time that the use of the EpiPen is justified. From the sound of things, Lloyd's doctor is reluctant to prescribe the EpiPen because he feels that the people that have one of these things may not be able to make the distinction between a localized reaction coupled with stress and excitement verses a systemic reaction to the venom. As I was taught, and as I teach, the bodies natural reaction to forign substance is to try to lock it into place and deal with the suspected poison a small amount at a time. It does so by the release of histamine at the sight of injury (sting). Redness and swelling result as the substance is locked into place. As the substance disapates the swelling goes back down and the site returnes to normal. Over time, the body can learn that the bee venom is really no big deal and the reaction to the stings can diminish to the point of the body not getting excited at all about it. In the case of anaphylaxis there is a systemic (body wide) release of histamine causing the body tissues to release histamine in the wrong places. Blood vessels can dilate and cellular tissue become leaky causing a drop in blood pressure and swelling in areas of the body other than the site of the sting. An example of this is the development of hives (the kind that don't have bees in them). If the site of swelling involves the airway, or if the blood pressure drops too much, the impact on the body can be catastrophic. Epinepherine delivered by way of the Epipen has the effect of tightening the blood vessels, incresing the heart rate, and dilating the passages of the airway. The first two effects listed can have a serious effect on a weakend heart if there is nothing basicly wrong with the person except a high level of excitement (hyperventilation and hence difficulty breathing) and a very local reaction to the sting. On the other hand, for someone that is in true crisis from a systemic reaction to bee venom, the effects are exactly what the person needs - an increase in blood pressure and a wide open airway. The key point here is the recognition of anaphylaxis. I would be willing to bet that Lloyds doctor would agree with Bob and a great majority of doctors that if a heart patient over 40 is in anyphalactic shock in the bee yard, they need their pressure and airway back by way of injectable epinephrine. I think that all beekeepers that are concerned about sting reactions should have the ability to recognise the signs and symptoms of anaphylaxis before they go wandering around with a cure for it. That is the point that I think Lloyd was trying to make. Steve Victors ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:33:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Sevigny Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIREC TIONAL CENTER) Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that movement without the need of light? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) In-Reply-To: <37DA8AD04D04084C80B2376925DFCD2B3233DD@ma-mail.legato.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be >affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. > >How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance >of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that >movement without the need of light? So far as I know, the current theory is that the dancing is carried out in the dark and is not affected by light, such as when the same dances are performed in an observation hive or on a swarm. It is easy enough to view the hive activities in the dark by using a red light bulb. In this way one can see but the bees cannot, being red-blind. It seems clear to me that most of their hive activities are performed in the dark. Certainly such operations as comb building, nursing larvae, egg-laying, etc. do not require light. The dancers actions are sensed by their hive mates in a variety of non-visual ways. There are odors plumes, vibrations on the comb, jostling, and assorted touching. Most researchers rule out sight and hearing, though it is possible that the bee's pick up of vibrations from the comb is *perceived by them* in a very similar way to how we hear, or how deaf people sense music through floors, etc. Of course, what bees perceive is conjectural. They obviously have a well developed sense of directionality: if you rap on the hive, they will move toward the vibration. Therefore, one could imagine that a dancing bee would be able to communicate its pitch, tempo, and direction to the other bees through the medium of the comb. These dances are carried out at the bottom of the combs ("dance floor") and in a wild hive these areas are not usually braced to the wall of the cavity, enhancing their flexibility and sensitivity to vibration. Cornell's Tom Seeley is currently doing work on these issues -- see his books and articles. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:52:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - N ON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Marc Sevigny: >How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance >of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that >movement without the need of light? Peter Borst: So far as I know, the current theory is that the dancing is carried out in the dark and is not affected by light, such as when the same dances are performed in an observation hive or on a swarm. It is easy enough to view the hive activities in the dark by using a red light bulb. In this way one can see but the bees cannot, being red-blind. It seems clear to me that most of their hive activities are performed in the dark. Certainly such operations as comb building, nursing larvae, egg-laying, etc. do not require light. The dancers actions are sensed by their hive mates in a variety of non-visual ways. There are odors plumes, vibrations on the comb, jostling, and assorted touching. Most researchers rule out sight and hearing, though it is possible that the bee's pick up of vibrations from the comb is *perceived by them* in a very similar way to how we hear, or how deaf people sense music through floors, etc. Of course, what bees perceive is conjectural. They obviously have a well developed sense of directionality: if you rap on the hive, they will move toward the vibration. Therefore, one could imagine that a dancing bee would be able to communicate its pitch, tempo, and direction to the other bees through the medium of the comb. These dances are carried out at the bottom of the combs ("dance floor") and in a wild hive these areas are not usually braced to the wall of the cavity, enhancing their flexibility and sensitivity to vibration. Cornell's Tom Seeley is currently doing work on these issues -- see his books and articles. Julian O'Dea: Of course, the mystery disappears if the bees are simply relying on odour: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html Canberra, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland said: > I have an Epipen and have never used it. Then it may be well past its expiration date. Every Epi-pen has an expiration date stamped on it. None have a useful lifespan of more than a year or two. Unless one is far from the nearest doctor, I'd suggest that keeping car keys in the ignition and a bottle of Benadryl in the glove compartment will do more good in a real emergency than an Epi-pen. If I had a visitor get stung and react badly, "having an Epi-Pen" would mean I'd have to: a) Run to the house b) Dodge the cat lounging in the doorway c) Leap over/around the dogs, who view even a return from a mere 5-minute absence as grounds for a full-scale reunion celebration d) Run to the bathroom, throw open the medicine cabinet, dodge an entire alphabet of falling vitamin bottles, grab the Epi-pen... no, wait a second... that's NOT the Epi-pen, its one of those mascara things... here it is! Nope, that's an eyebrow thing... ...In the Kitchen...! e) Run to the kitchen, bang shin against 5-gallon pail of high-gluten stone-ground flour left by wife in the middle of the floor, throw open fridge door, sending several near-empty condiment bottles on sub-orbital trajectories, start emptying fridge looking for the elusive Epi-pen, which is sure to have worked its way behind everything, find the Epi-pen (no, that's a ball-point pen - must have fallen out of my pocket the last time I leaned over the vegetable crisper drawer) ...hey, maybe in the FREEZER... f) Open freezer, yell as a 15-pound rack of lamb falls out and hits my left foot, but find the Epi-pen taped to inside of freezer door with bright red tape, helpfully labeled "Epi-Pen" with bold letters in handwriting that looks like... mine. g) Reverse route back to victim, limping while I run. Note that the canine celebration is now more intense, as they see that you are leaving, and suspect a potential opportunity for a RIDE!! in the CAR!!!! Evasive maneuvers are again required. h) By now, if the victim really needed an Epi-pen at all, he likely can't breathe much, and is swelling faster than the US budget deficit. At this point, one will realize that the ballpoint pen you came across may be of more practical value than the Epi-pen, because you are about to perform your first-ever emergency tracheotomy to keep the victim breathing.... In the same elapsed time, someone with an understanding of how much easier it is to pay a speeding ticket than to pay last respects at someone's funeral could have been halfway to a real medical professional, and the victim could have swallowed half a dozen Benadryl from the bottle in the glove compartment. And I'd forget about trying to call 911 yourself. Let someone else do that. Driving 90 in a 45mph zone while dialing 911 on your cellphone is a rare skill in itself, as is trying to explain the problem to the emergency operator over the sound of an engine doing 4500 rpm: You: "Anaphylaxis..." 911: "Anna fell on axes?" You: "No, I said anaphylactic shock!" 911: "Anna fell on her back and got shocked?" You: "Anaphylactic shock means 'allergic' " 911: "Anna has been shot by some mean old jerk?" You: "No, my friend is venom-allergic and cold, Miss..." 911: "Your friend has been allergic to Anna Nicole Smith?" ...so just focus on getting to someone who can deal with the problem without hitting a tree along the way. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen, Karen wrote: > I believe the problem to which Lloyd referred, is those that use the Epipen when the only "symptoms" are a little pain, redness or swelling. In these cases, the added epinephrine could kill (with certain underlying conditions) and will at least stress your system. If the above was what Lloyd was refering to I agree completely. I still do not agree with Lloyds doctor refusing to prescribe a epipen for a full time adult beekeeper such as Lloyd. The epipen is the method to use *only* when the throat is closing and restricting air flow. I gleaned the below from talking to two anaphylaxis survivors: Flushing of the face and severe itching in the area of the underarms are warning signs of anaphylaxis approaching. Panic and irrational behavior are common. Usually the air flow closes slowly but within a matter of minutes. Both were saved with shots of epinephrine (epipen). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Concern about stings Don't forget what my mentor taught me, that you park your car with the keys layed out handy, and have the car parked pointing in the direction of the exit to your apiary. Common sense thing, that along with not putting a hot smoker on dry grass that I'm sure I'll always remember. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim, Enjoyed your post. Never hurts to put a little humor into the subject. I live 30 minutes from any form of help out in the country so by the time help arrives the problem is usually over. Like the time I burnt 20 feet off the end of the honey house. I had the fire out and the loader pulled from the building by the time the fire dept. arrived. Or the time a car went in the ditch out front with a man trying to kill a man he was holding hostage. Turned his butt over to the sheriff when he arrived. The hostage taker had brought a knife to a gun fight. Unlike in the big city the sheriff thanked me and said nothing of using a firearm. The man had warrants out for his arrest when he hijacked the driver of the car while pumping gas in a bad part of Kansas City. He was trying to stab the hostage when the car crashed into the ditch. Unlike my epipen I did not have to go into the house to get my gun . Jim wrote: > ...so just focus on getting to someone who can deal with the problem > without hitting a tree along the way. 30 minute drive is a long time. Knowing the right time to give the epipen could be scary *if* the person was unconscious and then Jim's advice would be best. If they are awake they can simply point to their throat. I am sure I would know when to give myself the shot. Animals are harder to figure out. animal story: I had just given five four week old animals a CD&T shot. They were in a corral with their mothers. I walked back into the house . My wife's mother (now deceased) was looking out the window. She said "Bob come quick something's wrong with that baby". The baby was running wide open into the fence then getting up and running wide open into the fence in another direction. Only worried about the baby breaking his neck I bolted out the door and jumped the fence and caught the baby and pinned the animal on the ground. I had by then a pretty good idea of the problem but the baby was a handful to hold. By then my wife's mother (80 years old and lived with us) came out. I told her exactly where the epipen was in the office in a yellow package. I heard her praying all the way as she went into the house. I could not believe that in about five minutes she appeared with the epipen. My office is not in perfect order. I gave the animal the shot in the hip and slowly the animal began to relax and breathe again. I called my vet and he said the animal would have surely died before he could have gotten to the farm. I also know CPR and took a course a couple years ago in baby CPR which is handled differently as I have got two grandsons which are less than two years old and stay with us at times out here. I have never had to use CPR but would hate to think a loved one died because I was not able to give CPR. Bob THREE KINDS OF PEOPLE *those who make things happen *Those who watch things happen *And those who wonder what happened ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:27:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Concern about stings; emergency treatment In-Reply-To: <000701c27609$102d9080$34ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We are not full time bee keepers (15-20 hives in rural Oregon). The closest responding EMS is attached to a County Fire Station which is partially manned by volunteers. It's about 40 minutes to the nearest hospital. We do keep sheep and llamas and do our own injections for all manner of diseases and prophylaxis. As someone pointed out, an epipen has a shelf life of not more than about 18 months from manufacture and rarely can you say to the vendor, I want one that was put together yesterday. They are expensive because it's a gadget. I asked my Doctor to prescribe epi which costs, retail, about $8 (US) for three doses per vial. I've loaded three syringes out of that vial and keep them in a dark glass container with alcohol swabs (which probably wouldn't be used). They are in the door compartment in which we keep all our perishable water based injectables. I will say that the HMO was careful about its decision with respect to this preparation. In spite of my background, they required that I demonstrate I knew how to deliver a sub Q injection and that I knew how to load a syringe. Although it was a nuisance to make an appointment to take that practical test, I appreciate their position and think it was a good decision. (I'm on warfarin due to terrible circulation in a leg injured in fall. Because I'm so far from help but do work with rapidly moving sharp instruments, I also keep a vial of Vitamin K on hand. I think it was the first time my HMO had ever prescribed that for self injection in case of emergency. The quid pro quo - a short course in when to use it and specifically how/where. That is with me whenever I'm alone on the farm and working with chain-saws and all the whirling woodworking machines that I'm privileged to have. I also have it with me in our first aid kit whenever I'm driving.) I hope I'll not have to use either material, but as long as we do keep bees, I'll have up to date medication on hand. I feel far more comfortable injecting epi than I would doing a trachiotomy, as the say, under field conditions. No matter whether you use a pen or a syringe, be sure you've had the guidance of a doctor as to when its use is appropriate and how to give the injection without putting the material directly into an artery or vein. On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Bob Harrison wrote: > I still do > not agree with Lloyds doctor refusing to prescribe a epipen for a full time > adult beekeeper such as Lloyd. The epipen is the method to use *only* when > the throat is closing and restricting air flow. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:37:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Concern about stings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sorry to hop into every discussion, but I have strong feelings about epipens. My friend JR and I have had this discussion many times. He carries an epipen and I do not. We both have worked with bees from the early 70s. We both have novices with us at various times. His philosophy is that the epipen might save a life some day (hah, if it isn't expired from riding around in his glove box). Mine is: I am not allergic to bees and it is the other person's responsibility to look after their own health care needs. I do not want to be in a position of administering medicine to a stranger. Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I am open to a major lawsuit. Right now, the only risk I am taking is that after almost 30 years of getting stung, I will suddenly go into anaphylaxis. That doesn't worry me; I am more worried about cholesterol (which I take medicine for). I do carry a cell phone, but I realize that if I have a heart attack or whatever, I may die before help comes. That's one of the risks of working alone in remote spots. (The plus side is I work in beautiful spots with nobody standing over me telling me what to do.) But I tell anyone who works for me or with me that it is their responsibility to determine whether they can tolerate stings. In the case of actual bee allergies, I recommend avoiding bees altogether. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:30:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I currently have only three hives - one Carniolan, and two Russians. There seem to be very clear differences between the two groups (granted that I'm dealing with a very small representation). The Carniolan builds very fast in Spring, attains considerable size, produces prodigiously, and uses very little propolis. Their temperment seems medium - gentle on nice days, not so gentle otherwise. They are completely defenseless against varroa without treatment. My two Russian hives have nearly identical characteristics, despite the fact that the queens came from very different breeders. They are a bit slow to build at first, but then come on very quickly later in the season. They are *very* gentle, even on less than ideal days. They're considerably darker than my Carniolans, and a bit smaller, and both use gobs of propolis (which is sometimes a bit irritating). They both also seem to build comb in a different manner from the Carniolan - they seem to work from side to side in a super, as opposed to working from the center outward. They seem to produce well, though a bit less than my Carniolan hive. Lastly, as I mentioned in a previous post, they definitely store pollen differently than my Carniolan hive. They salso eem to have some varroa resistance (very few crawlers/k-wing/small abdomen, low mite drop counts) as opposed to my Carniolans. An obvious disclaimer here - I'm assuming that the guy I bought the Carniolan nuc from knew what strain/race he had. > Russians, as you call them, are Carniolans, just living in a separate region. > They are called Primorsky (spelling?) Carniolans. > > George Imirie > I have read conflicting information on the lineage of Russians. Some claim them to be Caucasian, some say Carniolan, some say Macedonian. I think Roger Morse referred to them as Caucasians, and lamented the fact that they produce so much propolis (as I have seen in my hives). My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian lineage? 2) Do my racial observations match up with others? Thanks, Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:56:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I think the term race should be dropped altogether, but especially with > bees. There are certain types, with characteristics, but actually, great > differences occur between hives, so I would hesitate to attribute > characteristics to "type" rather than individual colony. > Peter, Roger Morse referred to at least 26 seperate honey bee races. I understand the symantic nature of these labels (race/strain/subspecies, etc.), but would suggest that the general concept of race is still valid in many discussions of biology (even of humans). I also understand the issue of dilution, which may be clouding the issue more in bee breeding circles than elsewhere. In plant breeding, the term "Land Race" refers to observable differences of a small subset of a variety (which is, itself, a sub-species) - the term is usually applied to food crops which become distinctive due to the regional influences which defined them. Example - thousands of land races of rice have been observed in Asia, where rice farming and plant breeding have been ongoing for milennia. Each land race has specific traits which make it ideal for the area in which it is found (e.g. drought/flood resistance, lodging resistance, pest resistance, etc.). I am not a professional biologist, but I would imagine that *generally* accurate observations can still be made of many bee races today, while acknowledging that there are variations on any given theme. Regards, Todd. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Todd asked: "My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian lineage? 2) Do my racial observations match up with others?" As far as the Russian bees. Dr Rinderer, when asked replied that he had done the morphometrics on them and they were a carnolian type. Different from the carnolian type in the US at the time but much more like carnolian than caucasian. This also agrees with a beekeeper I coorispond with from Ukraine who tells me that the caucasian types don't winter near as well as the carnolian types and are found naturally occuring in more southern and milder climate areas. These comments agree well with the information on the Russian stock regarding wintering and spring buildup. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I might add I had a reaction which never reached anaphylaxis but feel worth talking about in case another on the list might need the information. In hot weather I wear the least amount of protective gear. Heat stroke can kill (and has beekeepers) in full suits. The temperature was over a 100 with a heat index of around 115F. I only had a T shirt on and took a sting right in the exposed artery on the inside of the elbow. I did not remove the stinger right away as I was working. I started to flush up and get a tremendious itching under my arms and in other areas. I scraped the stinger and returned to the truck. My face was beat red in the mirror. I had two choices. One to drive home (or to a hospital) or jump in a pond about 50 feet away. I chose the pond and felt better right away but took about twenty minutes to return to normal. I have often wondered if the heat was the problem or the bee sting directly into a artery. Comments? Similar experience? Bob Ps. Luckily our local newspaper did not read the next day : "Local beekeeper found dead naked in farm pond from one bee sting to arm" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi - Peter said: =20 >Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to >protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I am >open to a major lawsuit. I agree with Peter, and suggest that the same concern should bother those= who provide bees to arthritic friends for sting apitherapy. If the list-readers include a better lawyer than I am I'd like to hear wh= at he/she may think. (I'm a very poor lawyer, so don't be bashful.) Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:22:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Todd & All, > My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian > lineage? I have used Carniolans, Italians, Caucasians, Buckfast, and this year a few Russians. In the past few years I have settled pretty much on using Caucasians. From observing the Russians this year I would say they more closely resemble the Caucasians in characteristics. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:36:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Light is inside the hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Hives are not light tight, a limited amount of light does make it into the hive body. I can see very well with only moon light, I would think that there is enough light inside a hive for bees to see there way around. The hive is not pitch dark inside as someone stated it was. A little bit of light can go a long way. Take it from me, who lives in the dark six months of the year, you can see in the dark and so can bees. it only takes a small light source to see. The entrance, whether below or above, is all that is needed for the bees to see there way around. What evidence is there that there is no light inside a hive. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:59:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >If the list-readers include a better lawyer than I am I'd like to hear what >he/she may think. (I'm a very poor lawyer, so don't be bashful.) My brother is a high profile lawyer out of Atlanta , Georgia so I can get free legal advice. His answer was. Helping another in a life or death situation usually only ends up in court if the person dies. In other words if the person lives you are a hero and if the person dies then the death is somehow your fault the family figures. My brother saw giving a jar of bees to a person to use in bee sting therapy and not charging for the service *when* the person was to use the bees away from your bee farm as a case easy to defend in court. I have been giving bees away for the purpose for many years without a problem per his advice. After all I *do* sell bees! What people chose to do with those bees has little to do with me. Are one of the queen breeders liable if a person orders a package and uses the bees to sting all summer and has a reaction ? My brother did say that not charging is important. Pre paid legal services available across the country is a excellent investment for those people always in need of a lawyer. Small monthly fee and unlimited use of a lawyer 24 hours a day. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:34:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Light is inside the hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A couple of weeks ago I returned to Anchorage after a visit to upstate NY. My father has a few hives on his property there. One of the hives had swarmed previously and taken up residence in some old hive bodies. The hive bodies were located inside an old barn. When the barn was closed, as was generally the case, the inside of the building was fairly dark. I imagine the interior of a nest made by bees inside some hive bodies inside a dark barn would not have a great deal of illumination. The bees did seem to know when the weather outside was nice and when it was not and flew accordingly. Also in response to Keith’s remark–we don’t *really* have six months of night time here in Anchorage, it just seems that way. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <000701c27609$102d9080$34ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've found that Panic and Irrational Behavior is common among many who are stung, allergic or not. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > I gleaned the below from talking to two anaphylaxis survivors: > Flushing of the face and severe itching in the area of the underarms are > warning signs of anaphylaxis approaching. Panic and irrational > behavior are > common. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:28:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday (October 17, 2002), I was installing ˝” wire-mesh-mouse-guards now that I was finally on Fall Break, for nightly the mercury had started to sink into the 40’s. Although it was cold in the morning, it was balmy 70’s when I was attaching the wire-guards. There was little wind to speak of. It was one of those paradisal days here on earth right before the cyanide of frost stiffens every living creature. I finished one apiary on an Experimentation Farm [Ladino clover] without any incident, but when I worked on one of my Carniolan hives across town, huge black bees boiled out, as I *gingerly* hammered in three U-shaped, smallest fence nails, on the edges of the hive and one at the center. I wore my veil, but used no smoke, as I wont to, especially since I was wearing my early winter clothing—but was wearing a sandal, over a pair of white, cotton socks. A dozen of them got me on the exposed top of my feet through the sock, forcing me to whimper a fowl language, unawares. The ground zero felt like a pin-cushion that I had to quit the job, walked back to my pick-up, and had to put on a pair of plastic gloves on my feet, the best resource I had under the circumstance. Although my socks gave me some measure of protection, my left foot swelled up, not too much but just enough that I had to loosen my shoestring when I jogged later in the evening. The next day the small swelling had gone completely although I still could feel the sensation of getting stung there. While growing up, I used to have a systemic reaction to ground hornets. But as I get stung numerous times in a given year by honeybees, I feel safe. It seems the first sting in the early spring makes me swell a little since during winter I have not been exposed to any sting. Also, I try to calm myself down *mentally* when I am under a massive attack, say, while taking down a feral colony, trying to be aware what is happening around and inside me, something that I have developed over the years. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:39:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Newbie Humor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd, I never wear anything on my legs but blue jeans. When the first bee stings, spray the area with OFF and the bees drift away. Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:40:06 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Peter: I have given up beekeeping, but still need to be careful of stings from other sources. Another thing I do is use air conditioning when necessary in the car, and never drive with windows open. the last thing I need is an angry member of hymenoptera in a moving car with me at the wheel! So how do I know where wisdom ends and paranoia begins? : - ) EDW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:54:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward D Heinlein Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:37:06 -0400 Peter Borst writes: >I do not want to be in a position of administering medicine to a stranger. > Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to > protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I > am > open to a major lawsuit. > In the event of an emergency situation, be it a bee stinging, auto accident, heart attack, or what have you, any person administering aid to the individual(s) in need fall under the "Good Samaritan Law". Yes, you may very well be hauled into court in the event your "patient(s)" were to succumb to the trauma or your actions, however, and this is a BIG however, each person is judged on a different standard of care. What I mean by this is, if you were an individual that had never completed grade school, and I was an EMT, and someone else was a cardiologist, etc., and each of us came upon the same emergency, each of our actions/reactions, would be held to a different "standard of care", based on what each person would be "expected" to know based on their training for such care rendered in the situation. After all it makes sense that an EMT would be better prepared, and have much more extensive knowledge and experience in "emergency situations" than say the basic Joe, therefore, he/she would be expected to respond in a manner commensurate with their qualifications. Having witnessed anaphylaxis in a coworker many years ago, and not knowing what was going on at the time, I WILL carry an epipen, and will not be afraid to use it on myself, or anyone in my presence that is going into anaphylaxis. I will never forget that experience. Fortunately my coworker lived, as we were able to get him to an emergency room just as his bronchi had become totally blocked. It is alarming, the speed with which anaphylaxis can over come an individual. I think it wise to inform anyone of the possibilities that could result from stings. I also believe people need to take responsibility for their decisions(I hate being told what to do). As with any medical procedure, explaining what someone could possibly get into in the bee yard before going in, provides them the opportunity to proceed with informed consent on their part, and accept responsibility for their decisions. Ed Heinlein Helena, MT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:34:50 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Have been reading the various posts re stings. All seem to expect stinging to happen in or around the bee yard. My worst experience came on a Sunday afternoon in our back yard, 20 miles from the hives. One yellow jacket did not like it when I momentarily forgot to be careful and bent over to look at the nest they had built under our deck. One sting on the forearm did the trick. It took some time to push it off my skin. Then , only knowing about bee sting danger, I spent time calling the poison center at hospital, to ask if bee sting allergy applies to wasps. With a yes answer, my daughter quickly drove me to the hospital. We went straight there, instead of using the epi pen, and actually left it at home. In the emergency admitting, my blood pressure read 225 over 195, and they wasted no time getting me an adrenaline shot. The admitting nurse cautioned me that I should have brought the pen with me, because they may not have been able to attend to me even there, if other emergencies were already being treated. With that BP reading in my history, I am surprised at the information in this list that anaphylactic shock produces a low reading. I wonder how this can be explained?? EDW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:08:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if producing wax 1. ages bees or if it 2. extends their life, or if 3. it has no effect on lifespan? Bees hang inactive while making wax. I'm wondering if the process uses irreplaceable resources from the individual bee, if the inactive period slows aging, or neither. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Karen writes: >I've found that Panic and Irrational Behavior is common among many who are stung, allergic or not. ...and often even among those who haven’t been stung: Chapter 27 of The Hive and the Honey Bee has this to say: “On first contact with a beekeeper, members of the general public frequently make statements to the effect that they, or a close relative/friend are ‘highly allergic to bee (or insect) stings and are likely to die if stung again’.” Who out there has never heard that statement before? The rest of the paragraph says: “Besides being unfortunate, incorrect, and misleading, this public perception of the risk from bees is the cause for much unnecessary personal limitation and suffering.” Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:04:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all I am not one to make airy fairy replies, but ... > Does anyone know if producing wax > > 1. ages bees or if it > 2. extends their life, or if > 3. it has no effect on lifespan? Bees that have built wax seem to me to be calmer, more complacent, possibly even fulfilled, Now I know these are human characteristics, but I have no other description to use. The above statement does not address the question directly, but I conjecture that the increased temperature required for wax production causes an increase in the rate of metabolism and thus shortens possible life length. I further conjecture that this reduction is small, because I do not see empirical evidence of it. Not a very concrete statement... perhaps others can add some detail? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:35:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Concern about stings Correction on "Fowl language" [Foul Language] = "Chicken Shit" :) regrett the error. ego scriptor. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:05:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Eating pollen while collecting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have you ever eaten pollen while collecting? In the evening, while collecting the pollen from my traps, I casually tossed into my mouth a handful of fresh pollen—perhaps three or four spoonfuls—and munched on the pellets. I have never done this before, for I was saving the pollen for the next season, but due to today’s drizzle and rain, I thought the collection was not big enough to bother. It tasted dusty-dry and flowery as it passed through my esophagus, mixed with saliva. In about thirty minutes or so, however, my body went into a mild shock. It started to manufacture an incredible amount of histamine to react against this foreign substance in my system. I am allergic to ragweed pollen. The pollen pellets were grey [probably ragweed] and orange [golden rod and late sunflower variety]. My throat, I could feel, started to choke me as my voice started to recede deep into my throat. Upon sensing this mild, yet almost systematic reaction, I took one antihistamine pill, a prescription pill I have been avoiding to take for quite some time, thinking my body had, over the years, built up enough tolerance through my raw honey consumption albeit I had never taken fall honey. All night, nevertheless, my stuffed nose ran the mucus, my blurry eyes started to itch, and I could breathe only through my mouth; to say the least, I could not rest well, especially since I was sleeping on the couch not to bother my wife with my constant sneezing, blowing, and occasional coughing. For me, it was worse than getting stung by a dozen angry bees whose pain dissipates in a short while. I felt as though I was suffering from a self- induced sickness. Only after midnight, as the Chlorphaniramin Maleate (8 mm) and Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride (120 mm) started to work their way into my system, my congestion gradually cleared up, enabling me to breathe through the nose. The next morning I felt OK although it took twelve hours for me to regain my normalcy. I understand I should have taken small doses before the ragweed season to build up my tolerance. I just did not realize a handful of pollen could be this potent. Perhaps this anecdote illustrates how pollen, taken in gradual doses, indeed works. Have you experienced any similar reaction against pollen? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Eating pollen while collecting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Humdinger wrote: > Have you ever eaten pollen while collecting? Yes . The only difference between pollen right from the trap and the pollen i sell is the pollen I sell has been dried at around 95F. (when neccessary). > In the evening, while collecting the pollen from my traps, I casually > tossed into my mouth a handful of fresh pollen-perhaps three or four > spoonfuls-and munched on the pellets. In the fall bees gather ragweed pollen (as you pointed out). You in my opinion downed three or four spoonfuls of ragweed pollen. Hence the reaction. I do not gather and sell pollen during the ragweed season. I actually gather and sell mostly spring tree pollen. There are those customers which swear the pollen helps their allergies but I recommend the fall Wildflower honey with a small amount of suspended ragweed pollen taken a teaspoon a day for thirty days before the start of ragweed season instead. There is no ragweed pollen in the pollen I sell. > I am allergic to ragweed pollen. Ragweed pollen allergies are the most common. Local honey will not help allergies caused by mold. > The pollen pellets were grey [probably ragweed] I believe you are correct. > built up enough tolerance through my raw honey consumption albeit I > had never taken fall honey. The fall raw honey from your area will help you the most in my opinion as contains the suspended ragweed pollen. I have allergies myself and by taking the fall honey during late spring through fall I only have a slightly stuffy nose. I take no other medicene. My nose clears up completely after the first killing freeze. I gather the wildflower honey in the fall and sell all through the next year for allergies. The Wildflower honey I sell has no clover, sweet clover or alfalfa mixed in. Only fall flowers. I make only a small supply and sell at the markets by request. The true wildflower is not on display. I have lost half my wildflower production hives to varroa by treating to late on two separate occasions. You can get the wildflower honey yourself if you put on supers late in the season after the clover is over and are willing to pass up on fall treatments of any kind. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. said: > I was installing ?" wire-mesh-mouse-guards... > ...huge black bees boiled out, as I *gingerly* hammered in three > U-shaped, smallest fence nails, on the edges of the hive and one at the center. I'd leave the hammer and nails in the toolbox next time. We use thumbtacks. I like the "old-style", with the flat silver or colored metal heads, not the newer cheap plastic push-pin type. Walk up, position the mesh, and push in thumbtacks No hammering, no dropped nails, no banged fingers, and if it is cool or dusk and the bees are inside, they never even notice you are there. The tacks pry out with a hive tool, another silent and vibration-free process. Another trick is to carry a single a strip of 8-mesh (or even window screen) that is slightly narrower and thinner than the mouse guards. Align the two, which are assumed to be pre-bent in a 90-degree angle, place in position, hold in place with one finger above the entrance, and press thumbtacks into the mouse guard (but not the 8-mesh) with the other hand. The 8-mesh keeps any guard bees on the inside of the mesh until you are done, and you can pluck the 8-mesh from the entrance after you have finished attaching the mouse guard, stepped out of the flight path, and made your face a less convenient/temping target. (I can't remember the last time I got stung when dealing with mouse guards, but it has been years and years.) We love thumbtacks. We use colors that match the yearly queen colors to "date" frames, we use them to "anchor" apistan strips to frame top bars so they don't fall down onto the bottom board, and to mark locations on woodenware with "leak spots" where bees have found ad-hoc entrances. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice, I have noted your comments to the Bee-L for some time, but now you are commenting on bee stings. Although I am a retired scientist and NOT a medical physician, I do have something to say relative to your question to Peter, i. e., "where wisdom ends and paranoia begins". Unfortunately, many readers are going to disagree with me, but surely not alter my opinion. The "general run" of allergists might be great for treating "hay fever", but know precious little about honey bee stings. Some do not even know the difference between apis mellifera, bombus, and vespula, and even refer to all three as BEES. Treating of hay fever or itching is "where the money is" and not the aggravation of desensitizing a person truly allergic to honey bee stings. I "found out" the "hard way" forty years ago. I started beekeeping in 1933 and had 65 colonies in 1963, and was getting relatively few stings, maybe only 5-10 per day of bee work. One late afternoon, I was making an artificial swarm and had thousands of bees on the grass, and I was dressed only in shorts and tee-shirt (my hot-weather bee 'outfit"). Suddenly, I received about 30-40 stings particularly around my face. I was driven to a hospital who gave me a shot of adrenaline as a precaution, and the doctors suggested that I give up beekeeping. I consulted some local allergists and soon discovered that their knowledge of bee sting venom was quite limited. Then, I was informed that there were two FAMOUS honey bee venom scientists at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, just 50 mile away. I made an appointment with Dr. Golden, and later Dr. Valentine, both quite famous now for their study of honey bee venom action on humans, and how to DESENSITIZE a person. I did NOT want to stop beekeeping, nor did I want to wear a lot of protective clothing. They could and would desensitize me with a series of about 200 shots of an increased dosage of venom with each shot. However, Dr. Golden just happen to say that I was NOT getting enough stings each year to maintain a histamine titer that would essentially immunize me to stings. That was 40 years ago, and I still keep bees, but only 20 colonies now due to my age and having suffered 5 strokes during the last 12 years; but I get stung ON PURPOSE 2-3 times every week INCLUDING WINTER when I open a hive and grab a bee and force it to sting me. I have not swollen or had welts in 40 years even from those rare times when I have gotten 20-30 stings all at once. You too, can be desensitized to honey bee stings, by a KNOWLEDGEABLE allergist you specializes in this. I think both Dr. Golden and Dr, Valentine are either retired or dead now, but Johns Hopkins should be able to tell you if they have anyone to replace them. I am NOT going to answer those readers who want to argue with me, tell me that I am crazy, or their allergist is the Number One Allergist in the country. I know what happened to me, and some other patients of Drs. Golden and Valentine, and we all have continued to keep bees WITHOUT ANY STING PROBLEMS after desensitizing. I hope I have helped, and you can be relieved of sting fear by a COMPETENT allergist who really understands honey bee venom action. The problem is finding them. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Ending my 70th year of beekeeping near Washington DC Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Member of American Association of Professional Apiculturists Author of George's Monthly PINK PAGES Author of semimonthly Hobbyist Tips for American Beekeeping Federation News ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:13:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Margaret Hala Subject: Re: concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all. I don't usually reply to postings, but feel I'm qualified in this instance. I've been through the antifilactic shock and anti-venom shot series, and will and do carry an epi-pen, and will use it on another when and if I feel it's needed. You KNOW when you need the epi-pen when the time comes. You can feel your throat swelling, you've quit sweating, your heart is pounding, you're flushed, weak, dizzy, nauseated, etc. All those good things. Also, we as beekeepers know the toxisity of bee venom, and I feel we could be charged with neglect in the case of a newcomer getting stung especially in a bee yard and having a severe reaction because we didn't act appropiately. Pointing the veichle towards the way out only works if yu're alert enough to drive. If not, if you're too confused or whatever, you're in trouble. Better to give your self a shot and then go to the hospital. Keeping bees anyway. Does that make me dumb or brave? Margaret Hala ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:42:19 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen et al, Straight away I state that most of the following is pure speculation! You wrote that "bees hang inactive while making wax" presumably meaning that they are relatively immobile whilst "festooned" - hanging in a loose net like configuration. They only appear to take up this position during wax formation. Complementary question - why? They are during this state, presumably being metabolically very active - converting sugars to fats and waxes. This will be requiring consumption of energy resources, which presumably will be destructive of cellular components - these being repaired, or replaced to a certain degree. These processes will require use of amino acids, fatty acids etc. etc. Presumably, during and after a period of activity, the genetic timetable (through gene damage, closure of gene expression) results in an reduction or total inability to repair. Therefore during wax formation, high rates of cellular oxidation processes are taking place with sugars being metabolized, proteins being generated. Resulting in fat / waxy products. Conclusion: I suggest that this has a toll on the general well being of the individual bee when a comparison is made between those that have and those that have not generated wax. What to my mind appears to be difficult to estimate or define is the "wear out factor" for each role undertaken by an adult honey bee. i.e. The life span may be considered as 100%. and just for example: (see below*) bees that have produced wax for 24 hours consume 5% of their 100% metabolic allotment. bees that produce material from the hypo pharyngeal glands over 72 hours consume 7% bees that forage 21 days for nectar 60% etc., etc. Depending what roles are undertaken and for how long, each bee gradually moves towards its final flight. To my mind, wax production moves the imaginary metabolic slide marker towards the buffers at the end of the rail. Bees age. If it were possible to get a situation where a bee is followed having done "nothing" other than nectar foraging - would it be "metabolically fitter" to undertake the task for a longer period of time ( barring accidental termination before arriving at the 100% empty sign!). Differences between so called summer and winter bees may give some insight into this topic. Bound to be suggested figures out there somewhere. Especially as allotted time periods have been produced for the average honey bee (these showing differences in time span according to bee "type"). So, question*: Is task dependent aging allocation a % of 100%, or time dependent. i.e. Two bees bee "a" has life span of 6 weeks bee "b" has life span of 8 weeks Which is the case? both undertake wax production - same period duration, using 5% of their allotted life span, or both undertake wax production - same period duration, with bee a and b using 24 hours of their allotted life span. Respond or bin - depending on your fancy!! Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do bees do to cap worker cells in January/February - do they produce wax scales from scratch or do they use wax from other areas in the hive ? Waldemar Long Island, NY ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:07:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: Concern about stings Jim, Thumbtack idea sounds great, indeed. An ole hand in beekeping advised me not to staple the wire, although he did not mention about using thumbtacks, because racoons, possums, and skunks CAN rip the wire right out of the entrance. If thumbtacks can withstand such force, I will try them next time. Since I am on that topic, I often wonder how serious the mouse damage can be in the *south* because the warm weather often allows the bees cleansing flights even in the depth of winter. If so, couldn't they simply or eventually kill the mouse inside the hive? Of course, I realize that the damage had already been done then. Since I have been putting mouse-guards every year, I cannot tell how serious the mouse damage can be. . . . Depressed, thinking of spring already. . . . Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:21:47 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick asked: > Does anyone know if producing wax > > 1. ages bees or if it > 2. extends their life, or if > 3. it has no effect on lifespan? That's an interesting question. The bees are taking in lots of sugars, and doing some fairly fancy chemistry, but is this "work"? How much "work" is it? If you have one of cheap non-contact "point in the ear" thermometers, I'd suspect that you can measure thorax temperatures of bees that are hanging around making wax. I can't imagine that making wax would generate anywhere near the thorax temperatures (and thereby indicate that "heavy work" was being done) that flight, fanning, or thermoregulation would. Yes, I am using a very simplistic model of a bee, and a bee is clearly not a classic "black body" or a "heat engine", but there should be a direct connection between "heat dissipation" and "wear and tear" on the bee. My view of bee lifespans (to date) has been to compare them to airframes. Bees only have so many "miles of flight" or "flight hours" in them. Bees that do not fly much (winter clustering bees) clearly live longer than foraging bees, but it is ALSO strictly true that bees hatched in fall do not draw much comb, if any. So, how to measure and compare making wax to not making wax? We could set up a test in an observation hive next spring. Too late now - everyone is snug in wooden hives for the winter, and the empty observation hive in my office has a tiny sign saying: For Rent 30,000 Bedrooms 0 Baths Lots of Closet Space! ...placed there by someone who clearly needs me to assign them a heavier workload. So, let's assume we tag emerging bees to test this: 1) How might I prevent a group of bees from making wax? I have no idea, but I need a "control group". 2) How do I ensure that everyone in the "wax makers" group makes a similar amount of wax? I am clueless. 3) How do I know if I am measuring "natural lifespans" or doing nothing but counting the number of hostile territory mission casualties of the 159th Aerial Reconnaissance Squadron? Regardless, I don't see how "natural lifespan" is a relevant issue for more than a small percentage of bees. It seems very clear to me that very few bees survive all their foraging sorties and are able to live long enough to die of "natural causes" where we might see them and count them: a) Pick a minimal "number of eggs laid per day". Let's say 1,500 b) Assume that we have no mission casualties. Every bee returns from every sortie. c) This would mean that about 1,500 bees a day would die in the hive. Assuming 12 hours of daylight, this means that the "undertakers" would have to remove 2 dead bees every minute to keep up with the average rate of 1,500 deaths per day and keep the bottom board from becoming buried in dead bees. Even 720 deaths per day would imply one dead bee carried out per minute. I have never seen anything close to this many dead bees being carried out in an hour, and I have spent many an hour idly wandering among hives watching flight operations while pretending to pay attention to yet another boring conference call on a cordless phone. A small number of bees do die of "old age" in the hive, and can see them being carried out, even on fine flying days. So not all bees will attempt a "final mission" from which they will never return. Perhaps they are too "worn out" to take off one more time. Therefore, I'd guess that very few bees live a "full natural lifespan", and most die senseless premature deaths while foraging. I guess the "proof" one way or the other would be tracking marked forager take-offs, to see if most foragers fail to return after roughly the same number of flights, flight hours, or days of life. But most old bees clearly don't die at home. Most appear to end up "missing in action, presumed dead". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:58:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & all > What do bees do to cap worker cells in January/February - do they produce > wax scales from scratch or do they use wax from other areas in the hive ? Judging by the colouration of the cappings... The very earliest coin sized groups of cells are capped by re-cycled wax. By the time that the cluster has become a hollow sphere rather than a ball with a hole in it. There is adequate volume inside the cluster for festooning and wax production. The cappings of the disc shaped brood patches (which are now honey jar lid sized) have a progressively lighter colouration, suggesting a progressive admixture of fresh wax with re-cycled wax. (probably running out of easily reached wax to re-cycle) In full Summer, colonies that have relatively new light coloured comb produce lighter coloured cappings than bees that have older combs, which suggests that there is always some wax recycling going on. Having said that... Cappings over honey are (or can be) almost totally white indicating that the wax used here is freshly generated. These are observations about wax useage, they have no bearing on the ageing process. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. said: > ...although he did not mention about using thumbtacks, because racoons, > possums, and skunks CAN rip the wire right out of the entrance. Not if they never reach that far. "Carpet tack strips" attached to the leading edges of bottom boards appear to be effective "discouragement" for the smaller "problem" mammals. As I understand it, all these animals reach up with a paw and try to scratch at the entrance area. I assume that those who try very quickly "get my point". :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:29:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <200210182128.g9ILJgPx022829@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <200210182128.g9ILJgPx022829@listserv.albany.edu>, "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." writes >I was installing ½” wire-mesh-mouse-guards Why? Do you not have the standard reversible bottom boards? The shallow side (normally 3/8") is that way for a reason. It is too small for the entry of mice. Turn the boards over and allow entrance on the shallow side and mouse entry is then really very rare indeed (just the very occasional baby mouse or shrew). Mouse guards are then a thing of the past. FWIW we use the shallow side up all year round and the bees like it fine (although we never get California style heat). Persistent pests, like rats or bigger, CAN rip out thumbtacks, but then they can also chew through the side of the box if they wish (especially if cedar is used). Banging in fence staples is asking for a good stinging unless well protected. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:04:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Owen Watson Subject: Paul Theroux In-Reply-To: <20021018223937.14436.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" http://www.commonwealthclub.org/01-05theroux-speech.html Paul Theroux (the noted author) on keeping bees in Hawaii, Chinese honey imports (he claims they adulterate their honey with corn syrup), and the great beekeeper in literature. -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: FGMO Comments: To: Allen Dick Allen History : Apistan , coumaphose ,menthol , grease patties essential oils , FA , TerramYcin from 1995 to early fall 2000' Modified Sbb since 1999. TM encountered once and checked by lab. Total wipe out .TBH kenya type > . Infestation 100 % . was a swarm inmherited . Behavior : Bees look fine but cannot fly , congrugate and perish. ( Well observed , location on flat white roof. ) No lab tests after ever . Year of tm 1995. During applied miticides heavy drop onto sticky boards or catchboard below screen. Estimated drop after / during treament with Coumaphose 8000. Since 2000 used FGMO , cords and fog . Fogger did not work right . emulsion and cords was not quite applied properly . So. whatever influence it had : Unknown. Therefore used coumaphose once more to be sure . Began fog and emusion late fall/ winter 2000 into 2001 . Amount of colonies from 16 to max of 27 . Losses due to starving , too small and weather causing no gathering when required . Starved . ( March 2002 ) Location Wash. state Olympic Peninsula . No phoretic mites detected at any time . Minimal mites found in drone cells. Removable checkboards afford daily check of "drop off's" . This is not stricktly adhered to . Sometimes 2 weeks pass without . Until 4 weeks ago all drop offs are under 10 .alcohol checks = 0%. One colony 50 daily incl males and immature females .. In the beginning of drop some mites were alive . Now all dead ones . Alcohol check :2.5 %. Now drop diminishing to low teens . All other colonies drop either nil or below 5 or below 10 . No significant drop after fogging. The frequency of the emulsion cords depends on the ferocity to clean the cords by the bees . I found it required at a 2 week interval. Now use 4 cords per brood box ( Deep) No losses due to mites before or after FGMO other than mentioned above . No mites found with alcohol wash in dead bees on the screens. No foul brood of any kind. Nosema prior to FGMO. No residue detected by visual ( Which meas nothing ) No taste of Oil either in honey.Fogging two week interval plus / minus few days .Continous application during honeyflow also. Some colonies have some 4.9 and now the frames / combs are positioned by the "Housel " Method . I find the method of FGMO very effective and also must recommend the two kinds of application . One appears to compliment the other . In any case . I am still testing methods which are different and appear not to adversly affect the bees , also are not too expensive . The fogging device must be applied properly as per instructions . At this time I find no adversity and the bees are calm , are gathering still pollen and possibly nectar. From where :???? . This year they collected heavy stores for themselves . I do not feed syrup . Never saw "chewed " Cappings or removed brood to an extent noticable . No crippled wing syndrome since 2001 . And those were very few. Drones disappeared to where ??? Some are still with the colonies . Yellow jackets still a problem this year . As mentioned in another post , see Beesource.com. for lab reports and pertinent details of the testing done by Dr Rodriguez et al. Regards JDF ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:06:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to suggest that there is any source of Inspired Truth on the net other than BEE-L, but alt.med.allergy might interest some of our group. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Winter is coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Winter is coming and with it, beekeeping conventions and meetings. Me? I'm off to the BCHPA, then the ABA, then the AHPC. After that, hopefully, the OBA, the CHC, then the ABF and the AHPA... Wow! We have fun here on the list -- I've made close life-long friends here on BEE-L. We make friends and swap opinions -- and sometimes even facts here in hyperspace -- but there is no substitute for being there and meeting face-to-face on the ground. When you go to these events -- take a hammer to the piggy bank if you must -- you WILL meet well-known, published scientists, famous -- and infamous -- bee writers and authors in person, as (very) ordinary people, face -to-face, and get a chance to talk straight up. They will listen to you (until two AM). At these meeting, there is no ivy curtain There is no ivory tower. For North American apis mellifera addicts, probably the major events are the AHPA and the ABF conventions in January and the International Conference coming up in Niagara Falls this December. Of course, there are also all the state, provincial and local events. Each and every one is carefully organised and full of valuable info with amazing speakers. I'm going to try to be at all I can. We'll see how I last. I hope to see lots of BEE-L people wherever I go, and I always do. Bee there. allen Still very, very sorry for missing EAS... http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoon Subject: Re: Concern about stings Murray, No, I do not use reversible bottoms. I monkey my own [an oxymoron: how many Ph.D's does it take to make a bottom board?] bottom boards, and I do not carpenter to create a "Winter" bottom, which many would argue as "obsolete," too. (I am just too lazy to switch even if I had them.) Since I offer a little crack between the outercover and the inner cover, I thought wire-mesh, mouse-guards on summer-entrance would provide more vent in the winter. I am sorry for changing the topic here, but how serious is the mouse damage in the south? Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Concern about stings So, to put a positive spin on things, what does everyone feel about bee stings and arthritis? My wife could barely walk on a foot with a toe swollen and red which had gotten steadily worse for months. Caveat: She never asked a doctor about it, so I don't know for sure what it was. Last year, I stung the toe, and she swelled up around the foot for a day or so, and the pain is just starting to come back slowly after a year. Same for a finger which was painful to move. Not 100% effective, but very much improved. She doesn't take stings well, but she actually asked me to sting her finger after seeing what happened with her toe. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:34:07 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <200210201427.g9KEPaQD013827@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >what does everyone feel about bee >stings and arthritis? 1 Generalities would appear to be inapplicable. 2 The term 'arthritis' covers a range of conditions & causes (somewhat like 'cancer'). It would be surprising at this rate if any one treatment fits all. 3 I have found considerable help from stings contributed in a voluntary uncontrolled way within cm of arthritic joints in foot & ankle. Give it a go! R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:44:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Installing landing board stuff (was concern about stings) In-Reply-To: <5wUH$JCXtls9EwYm@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For what it's worth, we use ceramic coated deck screws (1-2 cents US if bought in quantity) to both install landing board gizmos and to assemble hive bodies. Even if you predrill (a good idea through "fingers" of the box joint or small dimension entrance reducers to cut down on splitting, we judge the pay off is long term. A portable drill with a phillips bit in it makes quick work of both installation and deinstallion. Leave the screw in the wooden piece (one screw is sufficient for an entrance reducer of placed near the middle. Drill can be carried in a hip holster. Bees ared unconcerned with the noise of the drill: no banging. > Persistent pests, like rats or bigger, CAN rip out thumbtacks, but then > they can also chew through the side of the box if they wish (especially > if cedar is used). Banging in fence staples is asking for a good > stinging unless well protected. > -- > Murray McGregor --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:23:42 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Margaret I posed the same question "dumb or brave" to a much younger beekeeper a few years back. His reply "Everyone needs a few left turns in life"! EDW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:38:32 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you . This is very valuable information and I will save it . As you say, finding a competent allergist is very difficult. In the meantime, since regular stings are not available at present, it seems wiser to avoid any. Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee research Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, tpaine/ucrac1.ucr.edu@west.net, PayneT@missouri.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" During the past few weeks we have had considerable exchange about treatment for varroa and residues of chemical treatments in beeswax. Perhaps for a little variety we can return to the topic of bee research. On 13 June, Scott Moser wrote a very perceptive piece about how scientists conduct research, including the following comment (abbreviated and modified here, with my alteration in brackets): "Also, be objective. Don't try to make the results meet your hypothesis. This is a good example of "poor science". A failed experiment has merit, and is a starting place for further study. Lastly, know your terminology. Most of what we deal with is hypothesis, not theory. A theory is a hypothesis [for which no exceptions have been found]. A law is a theory that has been shown to be absolutely true every time." I didn't have time to respond to Scott's excellent comments at the time but can now do so. 1) Some years ago I gave an invited lecture in New Jersey about scientific method. My host liked the presentation so much that he had me write a summary for publication that can be viewed at the following web site (thanks to Barry Birkey): www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/biossep1993 2) Despite all of the animal behavior research conducted these past several decades, I know of only one "law" (in Scott's sense) that has emerged in that field: "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." Quite simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find a source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down current - in the case of fish and the like). Karl von Frisch had a grasp of elements of that law in the late 1930s and early 1940s, as can be seen at the following web sites: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/bw1993 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943 A failure to recognize the validity of such laws (e.g., the Earth travels around the Sun; dinosaurs lived on Earth hundreds of millions years ago) can have serious consequences - especially in science. If all goes well, next month I will have another publication in print on this topic, one which Barry Birkey will likely include in beesource.com. May you all have a Happy Halloween! Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:02:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Pollen Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do-it-yourself beekeepers: American Bee Journal issues of May 1999 and July 1999 have do-it-yourself articles for making a screened bottom board and pollen trap. A bit of head scratching may be required as you follow the articles, but nothing you shouldn’t be able to figure out. The May issue covers building the screened board with debris/mite collector. The July issue covers building a pollen trap for the bottom board. In the July issue, the author mentions using two pieces of 1/4 inch mesh hardware cloth for the trap since it is more readily available. However, Betterbee (800) 632-3379 does carry the 3/16 inch or 5 mesh hardware cloth. Dadant probably still has the back issues available for sale. Dadant’s email is dadant@dadant.com Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:15:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH] Please read this entire article before replying to messages or posting to BEE-L. It provides essential information for all BEE-L subscribers. BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. 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A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I had a similar experience over the Summer where, like you, 100+ Deg. temperatures had me in shorts and T-shirt with a tie on veil. Got all the way down into the bottom box of a large colony and took perhaps 10 stings on my bare shins & calves. I quickly retreated to my truck and put on my full suit - in my haste though I neglected to take out the stingers and got the full venom load from each of the stings I'm sure. I finished the hive and perhaps 30 minutes later was relaxing in the shade when I noticed myself feeling funny. For the first time in my life I suffered a episode of heat stroke. Fortunately the hive I was checking was at my folk's house and they called an ambulance as I lost consciousness. After I got in the air conditioning and cooled myself off I started feeling much better. No trip to the hospital and the EMTs assured me it was heat stroke and not a reaction to the venom. My blood pressure checked normal. I'm no doctor but it seems to me that a sting can exacerbate the conditions that lead to heat stoke. Especially if the stinger is left in and gives the full dose of venom. Now it's water, water, water, when I'm in the bee yard on a hot day. I also make sure I get the stingers out ASAP. Billy Smart Rock, KS I have often wondered if the heat was the problem or the bee sting directly into a artery. Comments? Similar experience? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:16:27 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian said: > "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." > Quite simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find > a source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down > current - in the case of fish and the like). Not to nit-pick, but the above otherwise reasonable statement does not address the case of "no wind" conditions. The "only" is therefore a tad strong. With "no wind" there is a certain radius for an "odor" where particles that can be detected as "the odor" is distributed by what comes down to "Brownian motion" of the air due to temperature alone. For example, take a sealed box, and put some PDB crystals into it for a day. No matter where you put your sensor, the PDB odor will be detected. Once you start "sniffing", you can find the actual PDB crystals by strength of the odor alone. The easiest example of this would involve a stack of supers, each with an "upper entrance" hole, each plugged with a cork. The "sensor" would be your nose, sniffing at each hole as your open them one at a time. Once an animal chances upon even a faint odor, they can move about and find the source through a mix of random moves and subsequent "sniffs" to decide if the odor is stronger of weaker, in a olfactory game of "blind man's bluff". No air motion is required to play. Does it work in an absolute sense? Sure. Insect mating and activity is often studied in sealed terrariums lacking ventilation, and hence, airflow. What's the best example of an ecosystem with no wind most of the time? A cave. One only has "wind" in a deep cave when barometric air pressure changes are in progress. Once the pressure equalizes between the cave and the surface, there is no "breeze", "upwind", or "downwind" in dead-end chambers and passages. Caves also contain pools of water with no current for an aquatic example. Some have weird-looking fish with no eyes. (If you come upon such a pool and you are not with an experienced caver, note that getting wet is often fatal for amateur spelunkers, so don't even think about wading across, no matter what is just across the water.) jim (who recently dead-ended in a maze of twisty passages, and thought briefly about airflow in caves) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:55:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Honey house windows Hello all, We are in the process of framing a honey house in in a larger building. What kind of a system do we use on the window in the hot room that will let the bees out, either plain outside or into a hive, and not back in again? Any ideas would be appreciated! Also size if possible. Thanks, Carmenie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:08:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Downwind from odor sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Adrian writes: >"... be objective. Don't try to make the results meet your >hypothesis. This is a good example of "poor science" ... Despite >all of the animal behavior research conducted these past several >decades, I know of only one "law" (in Scott's sense) that has >emerged in that field: "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." Quite >simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find a >source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down current >- in the case of fish and the like). Adrian states that bees find floral sources only by odor, and that they go upwind to find them. But it occurred to me that there me be another reason why bees go upwind rather than downwind. Bees may have learned that going downwind is much riskier than flying upwind. If you go upwind light you can sail downwind heavy. If you fly downwind light, it will be much harder to beat your way back fully loaded, especially of the wind increases. (Similarly, I have a rule never to drive downhill in unfamiliar terrain -- it's an invitation to get stuck. You can usually back down from a muddy hill but if you slide down you may never get back up.) But to credit bees with such insight would be to grant them more capabilities than some people are willing to do. On the other hand, it could just be an adaptive thing. Bees that fly upwind to nectar sources may have had an evolutionary edge. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:18:33 +1300 Reply-To: Chris Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Subject: Fw: Bees and 1080 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: Bees and 1080An interesting observation, and concerning from several = viewpoints. Chris Smuts ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lmarshall@doc.govt.nz=20 To: smuts@hnpl.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: FW: Bees and 1080 Leigh Marshall=20 Fauna Ecologist=20 Technical Support Unit=20 Waikato Conservancy=20 Department of Conservation=20 Private Bag 3072, HAMILTON=20 ph (07) 858 1025 (VPN 6025)=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Murray, Neil Golden Bay AO =20 Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 10:18 a.m.=20 To: L\Animal Pests=20 Subject: Bees and 1080=20 Here in Golden Bay we recently had an interesting situation to do with = bees visiting our loading site during a 1080 operation. For the 11am to = 2pm period these bees made great efforts to collect what appeared to be = the dust from the pellets but may have been the cinnamon oil. Whatever = it was they were collecting they left each time with bright green pollen = sacks and proved impossible to keep out of the loading hoppers. The hives were in close proximity (150m) as the beekeeper had chosen not = to move them due mainly to the fact that we had run a number of previous = operations from the site with the bees there and never had any problems. = The heli operators also noted that they had recently carried out = operations with bees in even closer proximity with no worries. Has anyone else ever had any problems with bees visiting? This is = definitely something to watch out for. Luckily the bee keeper wasn't too = upset and the bees are not in the business of making honey at that time = of the year. We would certainly be insisting the bees be moved next = time. Neil Murray=20 Golden Bay Area Office=20 Dept of Conservation=20 Ph 03 5258026=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Attention:=20 This e-mail (and attachments) is confidential and may be legally = privileged.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:28:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E4F48F68 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoWR010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:25:04 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0210C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 191653 Lines: 4242 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:01:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Pollen Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Lloyd: >I am not willing to spend the time making up the information, fair enough >and also suspect that there are very few do-it-yourselfers interested in making this kind of a Cadillac product. maybe I’m one of the very few, but I suspect that isn't the case. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:58:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Bee Escapes Hello Tim... Thanks for the suggestions. We do get hot summers, but no where near the temps in the South. We are also right on the ocean (sealevel), only 100mi from Seatle,WA, so we never really get above 85F for more than a few days at a time. Also, our humidity levels are no where near what is found in the East and South, again I attribute this to Ocean Breezes... thank god!! I never thought of the weather as a contributing factor, I think I'll try your suggestions with a single hive next season!! Many thanms again. Cheers, Mark Walker Vancouver, BC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit , Peter wrote: > I am sorry if I have stirred something up here. I think that it is > worth the effort to uncover the truth, no matter how unsavory. I enjoy your posts. Stirring things up makes for excellent discussion as long as we all respect each others view points. This post is about the use and history of strips. Enough have been said already about why certain beekeepers would rather not use chemicals. Peter wrote; The truth is, honey has pesticides in it, even if you are not using them, > because of the sad state of our environment. The good news is that > the amount is minuscule, only of major concern to people who > entertain the notion of absolute purity (which doesn't exist). Peter is correct. The above has been pointed out many times by Jerry B. from *his* own research. When a person does beekeeping for a living you can not take many chances. You need to go with what works. One wrong choice can cost big bucks and also put you out of business. Looking back the results and problems brought on by the use of both apistan and checkmite were exactly as both manufacturers said they would be as far as control and contamination. We did see a certain amount of drone sterilization with apistan and some queen rearing problems with checkmite which were not anticipated. . The bees which were found resistant to choumaphos in the northeast were traced back to a illegal use of a liquid dip. One ignorant beekeeper causing problems for all of us. Both the manufacturers of Apistan (zoe-con) and checkmite (Bayer) had warned at national meetings that we would loose both if misuse was involved. Looking back U.S. beekeepers were in a lose lose situation because we never were given two chemicals to alternate with. The U.S. varroa problem was handled exactly like the problem was handled in Europe. *Use one chemical till varroa become resistant , then switch to another chemical till the varroa become resistant * The USDA did come up with Russian queens and SMR so they have done the best they could. Getting chemicals registered for use in beekeeping can be traced back to the needs of large beekeepers. Without the large beekeepers needing Apistan or checkmite neither would ever have been registered. I have tried to explain about the use of strips in the U.S. . Arms were never twisted to use strips. Like it or not those not using strips but *organic* controls are less than 1 % of the U.S. beekeeping industry in my opinion from talking to others in the industry and researchers. I never met a beekeeper which liked the idea of putting a chemical in a beehive. I never met a orchard grower which enjoyed spraying dangerous chemicals on his orchard. The person spraying is in a hundred times the danger from contamination than the consumer eating a grocery store apple. You simply can not grow a couple hundred acres of apples without spray and stay in business . The number of orchards has dropped from 17 apple orchards to five in our area. With apples selling below the cost of production, cost of chemicals and the dangers of chemical spraying the other 12 have quit the orchard business. Agriculture is a tough place to make a living. I have never seen anything in print or heard talked about the danger of inhaling coumaphos powder from checkmite strips. The powder is airborne at times when pulling the stuck together strips apart. At least a dust mask should be worn. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:32:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Question concerning production of round sections Mark asked why his bees refused to draw foundation in Ross Round supers, although they were willing to do so in cut comb supers. Two previous answers said that the primary reason was because the bees were not sufficiently crowded. I agree. In fact, one of the primary ways I recognize a 'true expert' is whether a beekeeper can consistently produce Ross Rounds above two brood boxes! That said, no commercial beekeeper that I know produces any kind of comb sections above more than one brood box. It is just easier that way. On the other hand, all the commercial cut comb producers I know produce cut comb on top of 2 brood boxes or 2 brood boxes plus a super. Again, it is easiest to produce cut comb that way. To reduce whole chapters to a few words, large-scale successful production of section comb honey calls for: 1. Spring hive buildup in at least two deep brood boxes, with three being better. 2. Reduction of the hive from 2-3 brood boxes to one when a major flow begins or just after. 3. Use of a queen that has not been over wintered. (Many producers start their comb honey hives from spring nucs, others change the queen when the hive is reduced to a single brood box.) DO NOT use a queen excluder. Unnecessary (with Ross Rounds) and actually harmful to swarm control measures. While there are a host of sub-titles I have not dealt with (such as, what to do with excess brood and bees when the hive is reduced; how to introduce a new queen to a hive that has been reduced from 3 brood boxes to 1; additional swarm control measures; etc.) hobbyists will be most successful if they also follow the above four principles. Alternatively, and perhaps most simply, hobbyists can have reasonable success if they produce Ross Round sections above a 1 1/2 story hive. By allowing more room, this reduces (not eliminates)the need for swarm control and the beekeeper trauma associated with reducing a booming hive to a single brood box. See http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/months/99may/99may.htm for more details. If that link does not work try http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture. From there select Archives, then May, 1999, then the two articles on comb honey production. I hope this helps. Every hobbyist should produce comb honey as nothing else (except possibly queen production) teaches a person more about becoming a beekeeper instead of a bee-haver. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:17:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Truesdell Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As is usual in these pesticide discussions, the original question is lost. The post did say that strips were used properly, after the honey flow and supers removed. The answer is that if you do everything by the book, you can sell your honey with no real worry about pesticide contamination. If that is not true, then everyone on this list best stop selling honey or wax. Check Jerry's research and you will see that bees bring lots of stuff back to the hive with little involvement of the beekeeper. If we are looking for an absolutely pure product, where no foreign substances are detectable, then science has done us in, because it continually lowers the threshold of detection. Everyone's honey and wax are "contaminated", even if you never opened the hive. Bill Truesdell B ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Pollen stores Todd asks about strains of bees storing pollen under honey. Frankly, I thought all Apis Mellifera did so. I understood that the honey acted as a anti-bacteria agent, protecting the pollen. Being full of protein, bacteria just love the stuff. Pollen stored under honey can be hard to see (until one knows what to look for). Hold a frame up the light, and it is readily visible. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Hive Colors and paints (was bee escapes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Eisele wrote: >This year, I painted most of my supers dark green instead of white, so >that the sun would warm them quickly in the morning. This seems to have >done the trick... I live in central Vermont, where the weather varies widely (-35f to around 95f). Summers can be cool, so I paint my hives a variety of colors, mostly mid-tones, which are considerably darker than white. The temperature difference between hives painted these colors vs. white is striking on a sunny, cool day, but the midtones are not so dark as to create a problem on the occasional hot days. I own a small sign shop, and frequently use mis-mixed paint from our local paint store to paint the backs of signs. It's cheap, since it's not in demand, and can often be had in 5 gal containers. Generally, when you mix a bunch of colors together, you wind up with a gray with tinges of red, or sometimes blue. The colors are usually pleasant to the eye. This mis-mixed paint is an excellent way to paint hives. If you have an option, use 100% acrylic latex paint, and prime first with 100% acrylic latex. The finish will last much longer if you lightly sand the hive bodies first with 60 grit paper - the primer and top coat grab much better. An alternative to primer & paint is latex or oil stains. Although faster, these finishes do not hold up as well, since they are basically thinned, self priming versions of paints, and have lower solids contents - it's the solids and resins that create the protective barrier. 100% acrylic latex paints have some major advantages over older latexes (which often contain vinyl compounds) and oil base. The acrylic resins are all but immune to U.V., which is the killer of lesser paints. They also stay flexible and permeable, which helps the finish and the wood last longer. Some of the very best paints (in my experience) are California Paints, Benjamin Moore, and Cabot. There are many others, but I have found these to be generally excellent. This is probably more than anyone wanted to know about paints :) Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:20:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive Colors and paints (was bee escapes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: >I live in central Vermont, where the weather varies widely (-35f to around >95f). Summers can be cool, so I paint my hives a variety of colors, mostly >mid-tones, which are considerably darker than white. The temperature >difference between hives painted these colors vs. white is striking on a >sunny, cool day, but the midtones are not so dark as to create a problem on >the occasional hot days. > I paint mine dark blue since that is the shade left over from the many different shades our garage doors were painted ( to go with the house colors which seems to vary with the season. Wife keeps me busy and Sears prospers). In Maine in my area we seldom have more than a few days of over 90F and it is usually low 80s or 70s. There do not seem to be any ill effects either in summer or winter. I still have some bodies painted white so there is a basis for comparison. Been painting them dark for many years. There have been studies of dark painted hives in relation to varroa control but not much came of it. I painted them because that was the best way to get rid of all that garage door paint. One feature that is nice is that the hives are not visible from the road, compared to white hives which stand out. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:41:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Question concerning production of round sections In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lloyd wrote about comb honey... Can i ask an odd question: how is comb honey consumed? Do you eat it all, including the wax? Over here in Sweden, i have seen comb honey sections once, but never eaten it. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Question concerning production of round sections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: >Lloyd wrote about comb honey... > >Can i ask an odd question: how is comb honey consumed? Do you eat it all, >including the wax? Over here in Sweden, i have seen comb honey sections >once, but never eaten it. > > You should get a variety of answers since it is more an individual preference. Some take a chunk and eat it all, some chew on it to get out the honey and then use the wax like chewing gum. Some spread it on toast and eat it all. Generally those who buy it are older and remember it from the days they had it as a normal table item. Younger people buy it for the novelty and ask the same question you did and get the same answer I gave (which I learned from the older people who buy it, since I asked them). I like to use it like chewing gum. I was told it was the model for chewing gum since it preceded chewing gum by thousand of years both for enjoyment and rendering wax. At the fair where our State Chapter sold honey, combs usually sell well. Even better is cut comb where blocks of comb are immersed in a jar of honey. Both demand premium prices. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:13:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Have now put lid with hanging multiple combs as sample into freezer for filming in a few days. Have seen two different cutouts this way but decided to start filming when I saw the second. Now looking for a third, etc to get a series for filming to make sure no fluk so no one can say it's a one shot deal! Center comb appears to be non-directional so no matter how put in the bees can use it on each side going out from center depending upon how the light goes from center comb to entrance. (two samples I have are from cavities) Still have word out to ranches for more cutdowns for free hanging swarms and have located a few I will try to get to. I will now film with video and micro lens so I can get into bottom of cells to show positioning of centers of cells.With video I can film all combs, right now three and then zoom into the center to show it and how combs look.that way no one can say I just layed combs on scanner for pictures. I can with video show all combs where hanging from and then single out the ones to show to document the positioning.Hope to be filming for several months as I do cutouts now to get multiple examples. So far with entrances the way they are I got 2 out of 4 to film so odds are I will have more. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jennings mcavoy Subject: NORTHERN OHIO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I FINISHED EXTRACTING END OF SEPTEMBER CLEANED AND STORED MY SUPERS GOT1200# OUT OF 14 COLONIES SOLD HONEY BULK AT 1.47PD. HOW DID YOU DO Jennings McAvoy 2420 brownhelm station rd vermilion ohio (440)967-0970 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:30:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hi Nathan Like you this is my first year of beekeeping and like you my first stings were nothing at all to write home about until I got 25 stings when I became quite feverish the following day and these stings were surrounded by about 5 cm of redness and swelling. Since then I've reacted in a similar way to the odd sting. This is a local allergic reaction and by itself does not lead to a hypersensitivity or anaphylactic reaction. It is possible that you will become desensitised with continuous exposure, but it is equally possible that you will continue to have these local reactions. Hypersensitivity is unusual and can occur with the second sting or at any subsequent time. Let's hope we both become desensitised! Yours Dr Ross Langlands, Scotland -- ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:30:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:56 PM 10/14/02 -0400, you wrote: >Is this something I should be concerned about? Are my reactions >likely to diminish or might they continue the current trend of >increasing in swelling and duration? I feel like I'm being a bit of >a wimp when I put my gloves on... Any wise words on stings? Always be prepared. Even testing can't always accurately predict how your next reaction will be. So get yourself an epipen (your doctor will prescribe it.) In general most people gain some tolerance, but sometimes it does go the opposite way. But just a couple of reactions doesn't mean you are getting worse. I had two reactions last year that made me pretty nervous (excessive swelling and some symptoms towards anaphalactic shock), but this year my reaction is more mild than it has ever been. Other alergens (hayfeaver, other insect bites, etc.) seemed to compound the reaction last year. I do always wear my gloves and veil as those parts seem to react much worse than the rest of my body. It may be better this year as the time or two I was stung on my hands I had virtually no reaction, but I'm not willing to take the chance yet. In short, no one knows, so be prepared. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:27:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other thing to add for new beekeepers and sensitivity to bee stings. It is possible to sensitize your family if you bring your beekeeping clothes and equipment into the house. They can have a life threatening reaction if stung. So it is best to change away from the house and store your suit and equipment away from the house. In addition, when I launder anything I wear for beekeeping, I do it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <20021015151303.37582.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Dee Lusby > Have now put lid with hanging multiple combs as sample into > freezer for filming in a few days. Hi Dee - Can you explain more exactly what type of enclosure these combs were from? You say "lid" that the combs were attached to. Are you referring to your black paper-pulp bait hives that are used all around Tucson as swarm traps which get dropped off to you? If I remember right, don't these lids have queen pheromone attached to the center of them? Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:57:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER Dee Lusby writes: Center comb appears to be non-directional so no matter how put in the bees can use it on each side going out from center depending upon how the light goes from center comb to entrance. Could you explain this? What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark beehive? pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:27:26 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Question concerning use of comb honey In-Reply-To: <3DAC2D22.8010904@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >some chew on it to get out >the honey and then use the wax like chewing gum. I keep a pottle into which I then put the gob of wax; when this stash gets big enough, it can then be melted with paraffin wax to make candles. I have no reason to think beeswax is bad to ingest, but nor do I think it's nutritious, so I reckon this is a better final fate for the excellent mouth-cleaner. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Newbie Humor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just thought I'd share a newbie moment I had recently. =20 I found I had a few extra minutes mid-day last week, so decided to put = escape boards on the last two hives I had not yet harvested. I thought = about putting all of my gear on, but decided just my pullover w/veil and = gloves would be fine - I left my worn out blue jeans on, rather than = taking an extra minute to change into my white pants. I pulled a couple = of mediums off, placed the escape board on, and noticed a bee stinging = me on the thigh. I pulled the stinger out, and smoked the area, = reaching for a super, and noticed another bee in exactly the same spot. = I repeated the process, and picked up the super. By now there were = several other bees on this obviously marked spot, all stinging me in = good shape. I managed to gently fend off the offenders, and put the = other super in place. I switched to the other hive next to it, and = noticed more volunteers stinging me on the other leg. I managed to get = the escape board on, and the supers on, and noticed a tickling sensation = in the groin area... =20 Did I mention that these old jeans were a tad on the short side? By the = time I walked five feet toward the house, I felt that sensation that I = hoped I would not feel. Fortunately, ms. bee hadn't quite made it to = the nether regions, so I was fortunate that she only stung me on the = inner thigh. In all, I guess I got stung about 8-10 times. Legs were a = bit stiff the next day, and I hobbled a bit... I think in the future, I'll stick with my white painter's pants. Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:44:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, > If I remember right, don't these lids have queen pheromone attached to the > center of them? Does this make a difference? Don't see that it would effect the bees comb drawing. Do you think it would? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:35:49 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <200210152059.g9FJNvTL025361@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark >beehive? In a move which could well turn out to be even less warm, fuzzy & popular than any of my contributions so far, I will say I'm baffled at this unanimous belief that inside a beehive is pitch dark. In daytime, enough light gets in the typical entrance that gloom, rather than blackness, prevails. Sure, 4 storeys up (failing upper entrances, wedges, shims, propped-up covers, or other sensible arrangement for ventilation which also happens to let in light) it must be pretty gloomy by our standards. But even there, an animal such as a drone which devotes so much of its surface to eyes may well be able to see far more sensitively than we can. At night, for all I know the moon and even stars may affect life near the entrance. As far as I can see it's an empirical matter. Plenty of animals can see far better than we can at night, so intercepting a couple orders of magnifude of the light flux may still leave enough for bees to make some use of. I reiterate the suggestion of flexible mini-video snoopers in hives, preferably with flexible capillaries lashed to them to sniff into a gas chromatograph (with a mass spectrometer slapped on the end of that, if we want to get a lot of science done). From what little I know of video camera sensitivity, I tentatively suppose this will work at least in daytime in the brood box without any extra lighting. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER In-Reply-To: <007401c274ad$424cf860$430b17d1@net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Does this make a difference? Don't see that it would effect the bees comb > drawing. Do you think it would? Clay - Assuming these combs are from the bait hives (http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/trip/35.htm), I think it's fair to say that there is a possibility that this system would show different results than a swarm that starts completely from scratch without the pheromone and the remaining comb stubs. It certainly should be mentioned in the results as it differs from a truly "natural" hive. Surely pheromones do something to bees or it wouldn't be used. I have no idea in this case if it changes the comb positioning or sequence, but there is a way to find out. Is it not important to know all the facts about what is being reported? A more convincing comb would be one that came from a feral swarm housed in a cavity without any aids. I'm still skeptical about using combs hanging from a tree branch to support the reasoning for matching it in our box hives, when a closer match would be comb from bees living in some type of cavity where there aren't the same influences on them from nature. I'd like to see either, but especially comb from cavities. Time to build that bee vac this winter and look closer at the cut-outs next year. Does Matthew W. have any observations here? I see he has done quite a few removals over the last few years. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:21:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee escapes again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We use a different type of clearer board exit. I am getting on of my > friends who has a digital camera to take some photos as I had promised I > would get some for another beekeeper. Maybe Allen might be interested in > them. I sure would and I'm also sure that Dave would add another page to his excellent cleared board section at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clearerboards.html allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Keith G. Benson said: > > > That might help Peter, but what of the rest of us? > > At risk of sounding snide, consider your friendly > neighborhood search engine. Not snide, but you are missing the main point. Person A makes a claim, then says it has been referenced, then evades a direct request for said reference. This really isn't about search engines. Would it not seem logical that the person making an assertion, and suggesting that they have a reference, supply said reference? I know I could find the article, or something close were I to devote time (and the 15 seconds it took you to do your searches is nothing compared to the time it will take you to wade through them). But is person A already has the reference, why not post it and be done with it? > With a flip of the wrist over to Google, I find more > than I care to read on a Sunday night: In many respects your search engine excersice proves the point. How about getting back to the group after you go through them all and tell us to which one Dee was refering to. ;) If the reference was freely given, one would have to spend only moments. So your excercise in search engine use was the merest tip of the iceburg. Anyone can run a search, but without authors or other leads, the search can take up a lot of resources. I think the burden of proof of supporting evidence lies with the proponant of an idea. Call me crazy, but it makes sense on so many levels. > Not all of these will be citations to published papers, > but some of them will. Right, but we are talking about accessing the papers Dee was refering to, not every webpage with three specific words on it. There is a difference. A huge difference. > Yes, folks that work at universities have access to much better > citation search services than the rest of us, and often have better > "science-oriented" journal databases and collections of journals > than public libraries, but on the other hand, they must put up with > working for a university, which is a very high price to pay. Naaaahhh, I loved it. > As an alternative, anyone can wander into the library of most university > or community colleges, and anyone who does quickly notices that students > and staff tend to run searches on the same expensive subscription > databases that Peter has at Cornell, print the results out on a printer, > and then wander off toward the stacks in search of a few books. I have > yet to see a single person "log off" their workstation when they are done. > > Do I have to draw anyone a picture? Me, I like pictures. I would love to see a picture of a wild center comb with the appropriate "sequencing" . . . . Keith -- Keith Benson DVM Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.- Hanlon's razor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jmowat Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before I started keeping bees, I had myself checked by an allegist. I was a little sensitive to wasp venom. Not sensitive to honeybees. After two years, I was stung by a hornet and had an anaphlatic attack - numbness, hard to breath, itchyness - and had to go to the hospital. After that episode, I went back to the allergist and, guess what? I was allergic to all venom including honeybee. I have sinse read that the body can handle a few stings if that's all you get. If you receive numerous stings, you may develop a resistance to the venom. Anywhere in between and you are at risk to develop an allergy. I am now on venom therapy - three shots of pure venom every two months. It is expensive but drug plans generally cover the shots. I can now get stung with little reaction. And I've met a lot of hobby beekeepers at the allergist's office I recommend anyone who is a hobby beekeeper to get tested by an allergist. As happened to me, you can develop an allergy at any time. Jay Mowat Erin, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:59:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: NORTHERN OHIO In-Reply-To: <20021015152514.20600.qmail@web10806.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennings wrote: "I FINISHED EXTRACTING END OF SEPTEMBER CLEANED AND STORED MY SUPERS GOT1200# OUT OF 14 COLONIES SOLD HONEY BULK AT 1.47PD. HOW DID YOU DO" Well Jennings i got just about the same here in the middle of Sweden. Didn't sell it yet, though. I kinda like to have lots of honey in store to look at for a while before i start selling it. Oh, by the way, what happened to your caps lock key? Writing in all capitals makes it look like you're yelling off the top of your lungs to make yourself heard trough a powerful storm or something. /Mats ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:51:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robert writes: What is the effect of light inside a pitch dark beehive? In a move which could well turn out to be even less warm, fuzzy & popular than any of my contributions so far, I will say I'm baffled at this unanimous belief that inside a beehive is pitch dark. Robert, Well, it is far from unanimous. I suggest that many people have never thought about it, but since they only see the hive when it's open -- they don't consider that it may be dead dark in there. But certainly light is *not required* for any of the internal hive functions! There are nests deep inside tree trunks. The bees make no particular effort to find cavities where some light is admitted. Compare this to other species who nest in the open. They perform the dances on top of the comb in the light, whereas hive bees perform the dance in the dark, and translate the direction toward the sun as "up". Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:56:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I think you are making a mistake when you say that we trust scientists. Just because they have the skill to detect minute traces of things is not to be confused with trust. Scientist are in a group of people with high expectations and are therefore prone to being biased or even corrupt. Harry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 09-Oct-02 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . >Any wise words on stings? I got a sting last week under the fingernail also. Always a bad place for a sting but keep on working without a veil Nathan and maybe you will get a sting in the eyeball, on the eyelid or in the ear drum. Those in my opinion hurt worse. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:08:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: stings-- should I be concerned? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is this something I should be concerned about? Are my reactions > likely to diminish or might they continue the current trend of > increasing in swelling and duration? In my experience, the swelling gets worse before it gets better. Many get a false sense of impunity when they react very little at first, then panic when the body starts to respond to the venom. Most of us who can take 100 stings over a day without any adverse effect went through something much like what you describe. Assuming it gets no worse, I predict that with continued regular stings, it will get to the point where you will sometimes not be able to see where you were stung. Maybe others will recall their experience along the road to developing sting immunity, but I have noticed this the following pattern in many employees, particularly those in extracting: 1. initial stings - little if any reaction -- false confidence 2. later occasional stings - itching, stiffness, swelling - some concern 3. multiple further stings - considerable swelling - anxiety and fear of allergy 4. quit. 5. if talked into staying - lessening further reactions. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. Comments: To: luichart.woollens@VIRGIN.NET Harry writes: Peter, I think you are making a mistake when you say that we trust scientists. Just because they have the skill to detect minute traces of things is not to be confused with trust. Scientist are in a group of people with high expectations and are therefore prone to being biased or even corrupt. Since you address me personally, I will reply. I don't know who you refer to when you say "we". I trust the EPA and the FDA to do a decent job. Not perfect, mind you, but we are a lot better off with them than we would be without them. I have been to Mexico and South America so I have seen societies that lack basic regulations for protecting the safety of citizens against greedy companies. As for scientists having high expectations -- what are you saying here? That you have low expectations? Or that people with high expectations are biased? Whatever. They're just people. Scientists as a group are no better nor worse than any other group, in my opinion. People have various motives. The principle mandate of organizations like EPA and FDA is to protect, not promote chemicals. Last month I was accused of being a Luddite; this month I am a dupe of the EPA. Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:22:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee escapes again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & (sorry I lost track of the name of the other poster) > I sure would and I'm also sure that Dave would add another page to his > excellent cleared board section at > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clearerboards.html Yes, I am prepared to publish any clearer board designs... (or any other beekeeping gadgets, if it comes to it) I believe in presenting information for others to use or discard as they will... In most cases I have no axe to grind, but I do have a few opinions of my own and usually say so if it is relevent :-) Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:45:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax. > > That might help Peter, but what of the rest of us? > > At risk of sounding snide, consider your friendly > neighborhood search engine. Not snide, but you are missing the main point. Keith underscores several issues. One, if you are going to make a statement, you should try to back it up. Two, if you are going to refer to a written piece, tell us whare it is so we can read *the whole thing*. Finally, don't kid yourself into thinking *everything* is on the internet. A great deal of excellent material does not appear on the internet, It is in books, magazines and theses. A person who gets all their info from the internet gets a very skewed picture. A lot of stuff that gets dumped on websites is junk. There are no editors to reject the BS!! pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Concern about stings Allen Dick's note to the list is EXACTLY correct, and should be understood by all. The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears the risk of heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved lives...they have also killed. During the years I was going through the stages described by Allen (I can no longer find a sting site) I carried a baggie with a small amount of baking powder. Baking powder combined with a small amount of water (just enough to keep it from falling off the skin) and applied IMMEDIATELY (say, within 10 minutes) to a site will prevent all itching and swelling. The alkaline serves to somehow offset the acid poison of the sting and prevents those symptoms (at least in me). Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: coumaphos contamination In-Reply-To: <000f01c273ff$da4c8da0$3eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bad example. There are a number (and growing) of organic apple orchards in the US. The published information I have seen shows they are doing quite well economically -- no doubt due to the higher price their product brings on the market. And they are selling for fresh consumption, not juice, where appearance is paramount (we can get several varieties locally and they look as good or better than conventionally grown apples and the taste of several is much better -- usually due to having been left on the tree to fully ripen, rather than being picked at a very green stage). > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > You simply can not grow a couple hundred acres of apples without spray and > stay in business . The number of orchards has dropped from 17 apple > orchards to five in our area. With apples selling below the cost of > production, cost of chemicals and the dangers of chemical > spraying the other > 12 have quit the orchard business. Agriculture is a tough place to make a > living. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:03:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sorry Peter, I have deleted your original message so I can't quote from it. I think you said that "they" trust scientists to measure one part per million but don't trust them to do something else. I just associated myself (and perhaps even my "brigade") with the "they" that you were talking about. I don't know what a EPA and FDA are so can't comment. I think that people with high expectations are prone to being biased. Politicians are typical of this group but they are perhaps more devious. There was quite a high profile case about the honesty of scientists in Britain some years ago. I can't remember the poor man's name but he was crucified for saying what he thought about GM potatoes. Perhaps he was just a brave scientist - perhaps naive - who knows. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:58:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd, notice that bees do not pack pollen to the top of combs but leave 1/16" or so empty. This is so they can cover the pollen with honey later, presumably to keep the pollen fresh. In the summer, I mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I organize the hive for winter. Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:56:52 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to materials being produced, investigated and then in some cases being found in honey (regardless of quantities and associated toxicity levels). The individuals involved in the above mentioned activities are scientists. In general, they are normal humans going about an activity which pleases, intrigues and advances their career. We should be able to trust their conclusions. The situation that is worrying many, is the increased dependence of these individuals on finance from bodies that have direct interest in the topics in which they are investigating. If an individual is employed by a company to research into a novel compound, is the scientific ethic of accuracy and honest reporting being put under pressure? If the person is working for an independent Gov't agency - is honesty in conclusive documents a result? History supports the following - that both the above statements have been proven to have negative responses. Relate these comments to the problem of materials being placed onto the market. Legalized BUT selective investigations have been allowed to take place. Questions that should have been investigated have not. This being so since the requirement to do so was not present. As suggested, in countries where legal requirements are lax in comparison to European, U.S. circumstances, products are used in less than ideal conditions - with the supplying companies having full knowledge that this is the case. If scientists were always allowed to report freely the knowledge gained, then one major handicap would have been removed. The public would then maybe have less suspicion regarding scientific matters. It would then be a clear choice of whether to use, apply materials that pollute honey - but at least it would be purely on economic grounds, ones not confused with the worry of wondering whether we have all the known facts. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:41:04 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith G. Benson said: >> Not snide, but you are missing the main point... ...and Peter Borst said: > Keith underscores several issues. One, if you are going to make a > statement, you should try to back it up... The only "point" I can recall (and the root cause of all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments) was a reference that Dee Lusby made to an ABJ article about residues in beeswax. Correct? I wonder if I can find the citation you want in less time than you have consumed muttering about the lack of a citation, the "proper" places to look for citations, and the "correct" way to contribute to a discussion group. Just to keep things fair, I won't use anything other than this beat-up 4-year old Palm Pilot and Google. Further, I am currently sitting in the Delta Crown Room at the Atlanta airport, so I have the additional handicaps of a semi-flaky wireless connection, no reference materials at hand, and a temptingly large supply of (free!) Glenfiddich within easy reach. My plane home boards in 20 minutes. I've had two drinks, and have started on a third... Am I worried? Not even a tiny little bit! Nothing up my sleeves, and at no time will my fingers leave my hands... Hours Mins Seconds Activities and Comments ------------- ------------------------------------ 00:00:01 I enter the terms "Wax contamination" and "American Bee Journal" into Google. 00:00:02 Google yields 153 hits, which you can see here http://www.google.com/search?q=Wax+contamination+%22American+Bee+Journal 00:00:04 The second item is something from APIS, http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjun_2000.htm and Malcom Sanford is known for being accurate and conservative in his newsletter. A 100% crud-free zone. It says: "...Wax contamination has become a serious problem in Europe, but there are no studies on this phenomenon in the United States to my knowledge < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis96/apaug96.htm#1 > Nevertheless, there is continuing information that sublethal doses of pesticides in colonies may have long-term adverse consequences < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjan_2000.htm#2 > 00:00:08 Interesting. Let's check out Dr. Sandford's first link http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis96/apaug96.htm#1 (Thank the Lord for giving us cut-and-paste, cause all I have is this little stylus and a screen no larger than my coaster...) "Ever since beekeepers began using pesticides inside living bee colonies (see December 1987 APIS), there have been concerns voiced about colony contamination. Most had to do with honey; these are reduced considerably now with appropriate use of Apistan(R). Few, however, considered the possible effect of long- term widespread use of the contact pesticide fluvalinate on the beeswax supply. No longer is this the case. Writing in the same issue of BEE BIZ as Mr. Allen (p. 4) about the 1995 Apimondia meeting in Lausanne, Switzerland, Clive de Bruyn reported that high residue levels of fluvalinate have been found in beeswax. Because of the nature of the molecule, he concluded, it bonds with the wax, making it almost unremovable. The Australian Bee Journal (quoted from June 1996 Bee Culture, p. 376) says virtually every kilogram of European wax is contaminated, most likely because of recycling fluvalinate-impregnated wax for foundation. European beekeepers, therefore, are examining their beeswax more closely than in the past, and not using heavily contaminated product for foundation. Dr. Peter Rosenkranz, University of Hohenheim reported at the Fifth Ibero Latin American Beekeeping Congress in Mercedes, Uruguay (June 1, 1996) that residues from two to 20 milligrams of fluvalinate per kilogram of beeswax have been found. He says these levels might be enough to cause pesticide resistance to develop in Varroa. Mr. de Bruyn says that so much resistance can already be seen in certain districts of Italy, France and Germany that beekeepers are being advised to abandon all pyrethroids (chemical relatives of fluvalinate) in favor of other chemicals. If levels of fluvalinate get too high, might there not be concern that the honey bees themselves will be poisoned by the chemical designed to rid them of Varroa (see April 1992 APIS)? There is some hope that beeswax from places that don't have Varroa would dilute the worldwide supply, according to the Australian Bee Journal, as referenced in Bee Culture. However, it concludes that a return to fluvalinate- free wax, would take an estimated fifty years, provided there was no chemical usage for that time period." 00:00:36 Let's also look at the other link provided by Dr. Sanford < http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apjan_2000.htm#2 > "Dr. Currie says that queen mortality and supersedure increases shown by the study require consumers to have to purchase from 40 to 52-percent more replacement queens than if tabs were not employed. Given this and the fact that they do not ensure mite-free replacement queens, he does not recommend their continued use. The results presented here provide further evidence that fluvalinate may indeed be responsible for so-called "queen problems" beekeepers have seen in the recent past. The drone situation appears to also somewhat reflect that of queens. Dr. T. Rinderer and colleagues at the Baton Rouge Bee Laboratory studied the ' effect of fluvalinate (Apistan) on developing drones (American Bee Journal, Vol. 139 (1999), No. 2, pp. 134-139. Although the number of drones produced was no different, survival varied significantly. Drones emerging from control colonies where fluvalinate had not been applied were mostly alive (97.5 percent), but those from colonies treated with Apistan registered a lower (86.1 percent) survival ratio." 00:00:43 So far, we have quite a few citations that appear to support Dee's statement, and one that I suspect is the exact citation at issue, but let's continue... The 6th item looks interesting, since it appears to be a citation to a paper... http://www.auth.gr/agro/beelab/gr/search_pub_con.htm Ohhhh... lookie here... we hit a rich vein of pay-dirt... "Residues 1. Thrasyvoulou A, M. Ifantidis, N. Pappas, K. Simmons (1985). Malathion residus in Greek honey. Apidologie 16(1):89-94. 2. Thrasyvoulou A. and Pappas N (1988). Contamination of honey and wax with malathion an coumaphos used against the Varroa mite. J. Apic. Res. 27(1):55-61 3. Tsigouri, A., O. Menkisoglou and A. Thrasyvoulou, (1997), Fluvalinate persistence in honey, Programme and summaries of the reports of the XXXVth International Apicultural Congress, pp. 96-97, Antwerp, Belgium 1-6/9/1997. 4. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi, G. Diamantidis, V.Georgiou, A. Thrasyvoulou (2000) Determination of malathion, coumaphos and fluvalinate residues in honey by gas chromatography with nitrogen-phosphorus or electron capture detectors J. AOAC Int 83(1):178-182 5. Tsigouri A, O.Menkissoglu-Spiroudi, G. Diamantidis, A. Thrasyvoulou (2000) Determenation of fluvalinate residues in beeswax by gas chromatography with electron-capture detection. J. AOAC Int 83(5): 1225-1228 6. Tsigouri A. Menkissoglu S., Diamantidis,. & A. Thrasyvoulou (2001) The fate of the Varroacide fluvalinate in honey and wax J. A.O.A.C (accepted date 20/11/99) 7. Tsigouri A, U. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi & A. Thrasyvoulou (2001) Study of tau- fluvalinate persistence in honey. Pest Management Sci 57:467-471 8. Menkissoglu-Spiroudi U. A.D. Tsigouri, Gr C. Diamantidis and A.T. Thrasyvoulou (2001) Residues in honey and beeswax caused by beekeeping treatments. Fresenius Environmental Bulletin 10(5):445-450" 00:00:56 I'm gonna declare a winner at this point. It seems reasonable to conclude that the article that Dee referred to was one she read in Bee Culture and/or in the AUSTRALIAN Bee Journal rather than the American Bee Journal. You can now go get the June 1996 issue of Bee Culture, and read the article. Regardless of what Dee read or not, we have a number of interesting citations that can be instructive in evaluating the claim that residues from "treatments" can show up in beeswax. It appears on the surface that they can and do. If you don't agree, we can continue down the list of Google hits, do more searches, or even (gasp!) trot down to the library tomorrow, as I suggested before. Rather than arguing and posturing over side-issues and semantics, or lecturing all and sundry on "how to post to a discussion list", why not take a hint now and again? Why do you think I take the time to give such hints when I could be reading a good book? 00:01:42 Now I just press "send", and I can go back to reading my book... jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd & All, Lloyd wrote: The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears the risk of heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved lives...they have also killed. I made a few phone calls and believe Lloyds doctor is incorrect in his thinking. As a person which has seen anaphylaxis first hand I feel (as did those I questioned) that the risk of death was far greater from anaphylaxis than heart attack. The EpiPen is the only method of saving the person's life other than a trac. As a young beekeeper I was shown the method to do a trac using a knife and a straw by a couple beekeepers. One had a small scar on his throat. I talked to a MD (my doctor) , EMT (my daughter) and our local hospital emergency room. I also keep animal epinephrine around. I would not hesitate to give myself a shot if I was in trouble. 0.3 mg is the dose. We are talking life versus death are we not? I posted awhile back about three employees of the Kansas City Zoo which had came to one of my yards to buy beehives for the zoo. One of the employess got stung and started into anaphylaxis. The nearest help is 30 minutes away. I had a epipen in the office but I doubt there would have been time to get the epipen. The Zoo truck had epinephrine on board. One of the zoo employees drew 0.3mg and gave the other employee a shot in the muscle of the hip. Within 5 minutes the person was breathing normally. Many people have never seen a case of anaphylaxis and never will but when anaphylaxis happens you need to think *and act* fast. I have seen three cases in farm animals. Two died and I saved one with a human epipen. Many farm vaxines (CD&T) will cause anaphylaxis in farm animals. The vet will try to shoot the animal with a tranc dart if running loose and then give a epinephrne dose. I *always* keep our animals confinned for fifteen minutes after giving vaxinations. Anaphylaxis is rare and I do not wish to scare people but does happen and one should at least be aware of the options and also the consequences of inaction. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Many of us went to plastic so we could simply remove the comb and let the bees redraw the wax if contamination values became high. People not buying wax foundation is what has driven the price of beeswax down to around one dollar a pound U.S. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:17:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: coumaphos contamination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen, > Bad example. There are a number (and growing) of organic apple orchards in the US. The published information I have seen shows they are doing quite well economically -- no doubt due to the higher price their product brings on the market. I am a small orchard owner and have raised and sold apples for over twenty years. I raised and sold organic for over a decade. I am in close contact with several orchards in our area. I help pollinate the largest. Niche markets will always exist. I do a niche apple market. The 200 acre orchard I used as an example is hardly a niche. Most organic orchards are very very small because of the problems of growing organic. I have been a member of the small farm movement for many years and have tried many projects from "Mother Earth" and "Organic Gardening" I will be at the Small Farm Today trade show in Columbia , Missouri on Oct. 31, Nov.1 and 2. Jerry Hayes from Dadant will also be at the show doing beekeeping seminars. Stop by and visit. I believe this will be our ninth or tenth year with a booth at the show. Michael Phillips author of "The Apple Grower" a guide for the organic orchardist (excellent book) will also be at the show. On page 5 of his book he says he has five acres with seventy varieties. Organic apple growing is clearly a niche at best. I do not dispute the health value of organic. I stand by my post. Bob Ps My son has never wanted to learn how to raise vegetables or fruit. I asked him once to come out and learn how to grow a garden and he declined. I asked what he would do if he had to grow his own vegetables? He said he would get a book. A successful mentor is better than any book. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:16:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I wrote: I trust the EPA and the FDA to do a decent job. Not perfect, mind you, but we are a lot better off with them than we would be without them. Harry said: I don't know what a EPA and FDA are so can't comment. My mistake. This being an international list I should have spelled it out. EPA stands for the Environmental Protection Agency; FDA is the Food and Drug Administration. Their effectiveness varies according to administration. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apistan/Cumaphous resides in beeswax James wrote: The only "point" I can recall (and the root cause of all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments) was a reference that Dee Lusby made to an ABJ article about residues in beeswax. Correct? There was an inquiry about the possibility of chemicals in capping wax. Nobody has given any evidence of residues in capping wax. I showed a long term study that found 5 parts per billion coumaphos in honey. This is either a great problem or a great relief, depending on your point of view. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:57:57 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Risk from pesticides in honey, etc. In-Reply-To: <002201c27557$b234bb40$679d4c51@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harry Goudie wrote: >There was quite a high >profile case about the honesty of scientists in Britain some years ago. I >can't remember the poor man's name but he was crucified for saying what he >thought about GM potatoes. Perhaps he was just a brave scientist - perhaps >naive - who knows. He did not mean to be particularly brave but merely to perform one of the very first tests of a GM food in the diet of a mammal . I happen to know this man, Arpad Pusztai Ph.D, and his co-author Stanley Ewen M.B. AP told his story in The Ecologist 3 y ago; see also http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/a.pusztai/ There was no issue of honesty, except that the various industry & Royal Society operatives who vilified this work were wildly unfair. The particular strain of GM-potato tested did - within 10d - harm rats eating it as a large proportion of their diet. The results were - after lengthy obstructions - pubd in The Lancet. Pusztai was already rtd from the Rowett Inst, but continuing to work there on a short-term contract. The director, one James, purged him from this employment & confiscated his records. The Inst was partly funded by Monsanto, who had said they wanted methods to be developed for testing GE foods. R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: michael palmer Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "dan hendricks" I mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I organize the hive for winter. Dan Dan, I was just wondering why you feel that you have to "organize" the hive for winter. After so many eons of time, don't the bees know how to do it themselves? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Todd, notice that bees do not pack pollen to the top of combs but leave 1/16" or so empty. This is >so they can cover the pollen with honey later, presumably to keep the pollen fresh. In the summer, I >mark combs with lots of pollen with a thumb tack so I can be sure to be able to identify them when I >organize the hive for winter. Dan Dan, I've got a 2-story Carniolan hive that contains at least 3 frames of mostly pollen still uncapped (as of about 10 days ago) - no honey over it, just pollen in open cells. I have seen some capped pollen under honey, but in this particular hive, most of the pollen seems to be in open cells. This hive (my first hive last year) did the same thing last fall, as opposed to my other hives, which are Russians, and seem to store pollen exclusively under honey. Is it possible that the Carniolans just collect more pollen than they can use, and can't cover it with honey? Would it be smart to pull a frame or two and freeze them for late winter/spring? Thanks, Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:59:36 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robt Mann Subject: alphabetical index of GM inforesources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://plab.ku.dk/tcbh/GMFoods01.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees Re: Racial differences among bees. I think the term race should be dropped altogether, but especially with bees. There are certain types, with characteristics, but actually, great differences occur between hives, so I would hesitate to attribute characteristics to "type" rather than individual colony. Unless you have a lot of experience with one type and can compare this with equal experience with another, I would avoid such generalizations. There are very few pure types any more, and there are a lot of hybrids with distinct characteristics, like the "Russians" or the "African Bees". If you study biology, you know that terms like species, sub-species, variety, type, are debated endlessly. With molecular biology looking for genetic differences between these categories, the water seems muddier than ever. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:53:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russians, as you call them, are Carniolans, just living in a separate region. They are called Primorsky (spelling?) Carniolans. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <000001c27572$353ff260$7bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I believe the problem to which Lloyd referred, is those that use the Epipen when the only "symptoms" are a little pain, redness or swelling. In these cases, the added epinephrine could kill (with certain underlying conditions) and will at least stress your system. Epipens save those that are experiencing shock, but are not indicated for just any "reaction" to a sting. The trick is to know the difference and still be able to use the pen when truly needed. I have an Epipen and have never used it. I have, however, had a couple of bad reactions from stings to the head ... mainly lowered blood pressure resulting in the inability to walk for a few minutes. Other stings have just left small red spots on the hand or large swellings for several days (worse on the face, of course, and if unable to get the stinger out). So far, I have been able to control my reactions with large doses of benadryl (and sudafed to counteract the drowsiness). All after discussing the situation with a doctor and having the pen on hand in case the reaction worsened. So far, I haven't had any reaction involving breathing. Of course, I now avoid being stung as much as possible -- wearing a hat in the garden to keep the critters out of my hair and always suiting up, even for minor manipulations and to mow around the hives. I've also been present when someone with a severe allergy went into shock and had trouble breathing -- despite a known problem with hornets and wasps, this person did not carry an Epipen when in areas where he could easily be exposed, then tried to continue his activities with no treatment after a sting (that only lasted about 5 minutes). He had to be carried out to a parking area, then driven to the hospital, where he got to stay for some time due to the severity of the reaction. An Epipen in such a situation could have saved much of that stay and the treatment required (although the trip to the ER would have been prudent in any case). Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > Hello Lloyd & All, > Lloyd wrote: > The use of Epipen's has been mentioned. Please take CAUTION here. My > doctor refuses to prescribe one for anyone over 40, as he fears > the risk of > heart attack symptoms are just too great. Epipens can and have saved > lives...they have also killed. > > I made a few phone calls and believe Lloyds doctor is incorrect in his > thinking. As a person which has seen anaphylaxis first hand I feel (as did > those I questioned) that the risk of death was far greater from > anaphylaxis than heart attack. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:26:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: The Victors Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Lloyd, and all, As an ambulance medic with many years of riding in the back of the rig, I can understand both sides of the debate about the use of an EpiPen. That anaphylaxis can and does kill there can be no doubt. That there can be very serious side effects to the use of an EpiPen (including death) is also not much of a debatable topic. The key point is to recognise the time that the use of the EpiPen is justified. From the sound of things, Lloyd's doctor is reluctant to prescribe the EpiPen because he feels that the people that have one of these things may not be able to make the distinction between a localized reaction coupled with stress and excitement verses a systemic reaction to the venom. As I was taught, and as I teach, the bodies natural reaction to forign substance is to try to lock it into place and deal with the suspected poison a small amount at a time. It does so by the release of histamine at the sight of injury (sting). Redness and swelling result as the substance is locked into place. As the substance disapates the swelling goes back down and the site returnes to normal. Over time, the body can learn that the bee venom is really no big deal and the reaction to the stings can diminish to the point of the body not getting excited at all about it. In the case of anaphylaxis there is a systemic (body wide) release of histamine causing the body tissues to release histamine in the wrong places. Blood vessels can dilate and cellular tissue become leaky causing a drop in blood pressure and swelling in areas of the body other than the site of the sting. An example of this is the development of hives (the kind that don't have bees in them). If the site of swelling involves the airway, or if the blood pressure drops too much, the impact on the body can be catastrophic. Epinepherine delivered by way of the Epipen has the effect of tightening the blood vessels, incresing the heart rate, and dilating the passages of the airway. The first two effects listed can have a serious effect on a weakend heart if there is nothing basicly wrong with the person except a high level of excitement (hyperventilation and hence difficulty breathing) and a very local reaction to the sting. On the other hand, for someone that is in true crisis from a systemic reaction to bee venom, the effects are exactly what the person needs - an increase in blood pressure and a wide open airway. The key point here is the recognition of anaphylaxis. I would be willing to bet that Lloyds doctor would agree with Bob and a great majority of doctors that if a heart patient over 40 is in anyphalactic shock in the bee yard, they need their pressure and airway back by way of injectable epinephrine. I think that all beekeepers that are concerned about sting reactions should have the ability to recognise the signs and symptoms of anaphylaxis before they go wandering around with a cure for it. That is the point that I think Lloyd was trying to make. Steve Victors ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:33:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Sevigny Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIREC TIONAL CENTER) Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that movement without the need of light? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - NON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) In-Reply-To: <37DA8AD04D04084C80B2376925DFCD2B3233DD@ma-mail.legato.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Perhaps you could show or allude to which activities might be >affected by light, aside from foraging, etc. > >How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance >of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that >movement without the need of light? So far as I know, the current theory is that the dancing is carried out in the dark and is not affected by light, such as when the same dances are performed in an observation hive or on a swarm. It is easy enough to view the hive activities in the dark by using a red light bulb. In this way one can see but the bees cannot, being red-blind. It seems clear to me that most of their hive activities are performed in the dark. Certainly such operations as comb building, nursing larvae, egg-laying, etc. do not require light. The dancers actions are sensed by their hive mates in a variety of non-visual ways. There are odors plumes, vibrations on the comb, jostling, and assorted touching. Most researchers rule out sight and hearing, though it is possible that the bee's pick up of vibrations from the comb is *perceived by them* in a very similar way to how we hear, or how deaf people sense music through floors, etc. Of course, what bees perceive is conjectural. They obviously have a well developed sense of directionality: if you rap on the hive, they will move toward the vibration. Therefore, one could imagine that a dancing bee would be able to communicate its pitch, tempo, and direction to the other bees through the medium of the comb. These dances are carried out at the bottom of the combs ("dance floor") and in a wild hive these areas are not usually braced to the wall of the cavity, enhancing their flexibility and sensitivity to vibration. Cornell's Tom Seeley is currently doing work on these issues -- see his books and articles. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:52:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: Light inside the hive (was:Re: Housel Positioning - N ON-DIRECTIONAL CENTER) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Marc Sevigny: >How about the dance communication to indicate direction and distance >of pollen and nectar sources? Or can the antennae detect that >movement without the need of light? Peter Borst: So far as I know, the current theory is that the dancing is carried out in the dark and is not affected by light, such as when the same dances are performed in an observation hive or on a swarm. It is easy enough to view the hive activities in the dark by using a red light bulb. In this way one can see but the bees cannot, being red-blind. It seems clear to me that most of their hive activities are performed in the dark. Certainly such operations as comb building, nursing larvae, egg-laying, etc. do not require light. The dancers actions are sensed by their hive mates in a variety of non-visual ways. There are odors plumes, vibrations on the comb, jostling, and assorted touching. Most researchers rule out sight and hearing, though it is possible that the bee's pick up of vibrations from the comb is *perceived by them* in a very similar way to how we hear, or how deaf people sense music through floors, etc. Of course, what bees perceive is conjectural. They obviously have a well developed sense of directionality: if you rap on the hive, they will move toward the vibration. Therefore, one could imagine that a dancing bee would be able to communicate its pitch, tempo, and direction to the other bees through the medium of the comb. These dances are carried out at the bottom of the combs ("dance floor") and in a wild hive these areas are not usually braced to the wall of the cavity, enhancing their flexibility and sensitivity to vibration. Cornell's Tom Seeley is currently doing work on these issues -- see his books and articles. Julian O'Dea: Of course, the mystery disappears if the bees are simply relying on odour: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html Canberra, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland said: > I have an Epipen and have never used it. Then it may be well past its expiration date. Every Epi-pen has an expiration date stamped on it. None have a useful lifespan of more than a year or two. Unless one is far from the nearest doctor, I'd suggest that keeping car keys in the ignition and a bottle of Benadryl in the glove compartment will do more good in a real emergency than an Epi-pen. If I had a visitor get stung and react badly, "having an Epi-Pen" would mean I'd have to: a) Run to the house b) Dodge the cat lounging in the doorway c) Leap over/around the dogs, who view even a return from a mere 5-minute absence as grounds for a full-scale reunion celebration d) Run to the bathroom, throw open the medicine cabinet, dodge an entire alphabet of falling vitamin bottles, grab the Epi-pen... no, wait a second... that's NOT the Epi-pen, its one of those mascara things... here it is! Nope, that's an eyebrow thing... ...In the Kitchen...! e) Run to the kitchen, bang shin against 5-gallon pail of high-gluten stone-ground flour left by wife in the middle of the floor, throw open fridge door, sending several near-empty condiment bottles on sub-orbital trajectories, start emptying fridge looking for the elusive Epi-pen, which is sure to have worked its way behind everything, find the Epi-pen (no, that's a ball-point pen - must have fallen out of my pocket the last time I leaned over the vegetable crisper drawer) ...hey, maybe in the FREEZER... f) Open freezer, yell as a 15-pound rack of lamb falls out and hits my left foot, but find the Epi-pen taped to inside of freezer door with bright red tape, helpfully labeled "Epi-Pen" with bold letters in handwriting that looks like... mine. g) Reverse route back to victim, limping while I run. Note that the canine celebration is now more intense, as they see that you are leaving, and suspect a potential opportunity for a RIDE!! in the CAR!!!! Evasive maneuvers are again required. h) By now, if the victim really needed an Epi-pen at all, he likely can't breathe much, and is swelling faster than the US budget deficit. At this point, one will realize that the ballpoint pen you came across may be of more practical value than the Epi-pen, because you are about to perform your first-ever emergency tracheotomy to keep the victim breathing.... In the same elapsed time, someone with an understanding of how much easier it is to pay a speeding ticket than to pay last respects at someone's funeral could have been halfway to a real medical professional, and the victim could have swallowed half a dozen Benadryl from the bottle in the glove compartment. And I'd forget about trying to call 911 yourself. Let someone else do that. Driving 90 in a 45mph zone while dialing 911 on your cellphone is a rare skill in itself, as is trying to explain the problem to the emergency operator over the sound of an engine doing 4500 rpm: You: "Anaphylaxis..." 911: "Anna fell on axes?" You: "No, I said anaphylactic shock!" 911: "Anna fell on her back and got shocked?" You: "Anaphylactic shock means 'allergic' " 911: "Anna has been shot by some mean old jerk?" You: "No, my friend is venom-allergic and cold, Miss..." 911: "Your friend has been allergic to Anna Nicole Smith?" ...so just focus on getting to someone who can deal with the problem without hitting a tree along the way. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen, Karen wrote: > I believe the problem to which Lloyd referred, is those that use the Epipen when the only "symptoms" are a little pain, redness or swelling. In these cases, the added epinephrine could kill (with certain underlying conditions) and will at least stress your system. If the above was what Lloyd was refering to I agree completely. I still do not agree with Lloyds doctor refusing to prescribe a epipen for a full time adult beekeeper such as Lloyd. The epipen is the method to use *only* when the throat is closing and restricting air flow. I gleaned the below from talking to two anaphylaxis survivors: Flushing of the face and severe itching in the area of the underarms are warning signs of anaphylaxis approaching. Panic and irrational behavior are common. Usually the air flow closes slowly but within a matter of minutes. Both were saved with shots of epinephrine (epipen). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Concern about stings Don't forget what my mentor taught me, that you park your car with the keys layed out handy, and have the car parked pointing in the direction of the exit to your apiary. Common sense thing, that along with not putting a hot smoker on dry grass that I'm sure I'll always remember. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim, Enjoyed your post. Never hurts to put a little humor into the subject. I live 30 minutes from any form of help out in the country so by the time help arrives the problem is usually over. Like the time I burnt 20 feet off the end of the honey house. I had the fire out and the loader pulled from the building by the time the fire dept. arrived. Or the time a car went in the ditch out front with a man trying to kill a man he was holding hostage. Turned his butt over to the sheriff when he arrived. The hostage taker had brought a knife to a gun fight. Unlike in the big city the sheriff thanked me and said nothing of using a firearm. The man had warrants out for his arrest when he hijacked the driver of the car while pumping gas in a bad part of Kansas City. He was trying to stab the hostage when the car crashed into the ditch. Unlike my epipen I did not have to go into the house to get my gun . Jim wrote: > ...so just focus on getting to someone who can deal with the problem > without hitting a tree along the way. 30 minute drive is a long time. Knowing the right time to give the epipen could be scary *if* the person was unconscious and then Jim's advice would be best. If they are awake they can simply point to their throat. I am sure I would know when to give myself the shot. Animals are harder to figure out. animal story: I had just given five four week old animals a CD&T shot. They were in a corral with their mothers. I walked back into the house . My wife's mother (now deceased) was looking out the window. She said "Bob come quick something's wrong with that baby". The baby was running wide open into the fence then getting up and running wide open into the fence in another direction. Only worried about the baby breaking his neck I bolted out the door and jumped the fence and caught the baby and pinned the animal on the ground. I had by then a pretty good idea of the problem but the baby was a handful to hold. By then my wife's mother (80 years old and lived with us) came out. I told her exactly where the epipen was in the office in a yellow package. I heard her praying all the way as she went into the house. I could not believe that in about five minutes she appeared with the epipen. My office is not in perfect order. I gave the animal the shot in the hip and slowly the animal began to relax and breathe again. I called my vet and he said the animal would have surely died before he could have gotten to the farm. I also know CPR and took a course a couple years ago in baby CPR which is handled differently as I have got two grandsons which are less than two years old and stay with us at times out here. I have never had to use CPR but would hate to think a loved one died because I was not able to give CPR. Bob THREE KINDS OF PEOPLE *those who make things happen *Those who watch things happen *And those who wonder what happened ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:27:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Concern about stings; emergency treatment In-Reply-To: <000701c27609$102d9080$34ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We are not full time bee keepers (15-20 hives in rural Oregon). The closest responding EMS is attached to a County Fire Station which is partially manned by volunteers. It's about 40 minutes to the nearest hospital. We do keep sheep and llamas and do our own injections for all manner of diseases and prophylaxis. As someone pointed out, an epipen has a shelf life of not more than about 18 months from manufacture and rarely can you say to the vendor, I want one that was put together yesterday. They are expensive because it's a gadget. I asked my Doctor to prescribe epi which costs, retail, about $8 (US) for three doses per vial. I've loaded three syringes out of that vial and keep them in a dark glass container with alcohol swabs (which probably wouldn't be used). They are in the door compartment in which we keep all our perishable water based injectables. I will say that the HMO was careful about its decision with respect to this preparation. In spite of my background, they required that I demonstrate I knew how to deliver a sub Q injection and that I knew how to load a syringe. Although it was a nuisance to make an appointment to take that practical test, I appreciate their position and think it was a good decision. (I'm on warfarin due to terrible circulation in a leg injured in fall. Because I'm so far from help but do work with rapidly moving sharp instruments, I also keep a vial of Vitamin K on hand. I think it was the first time my HMO had ever prescribed that for self injection in case of emergency. The quid pro quo - a short course in when to use it and specifically how/where. That is with me whenever I'm alone on the farm and working with chain-saws and all the whirling woodworking machines that I'm privileged to have. I also have it with me in our first aid kit whenever I'm driving.) I hope I'll not have to use either material, but as long as we do keep bees, I'll have up to date medication on hand. I feel far more comfortable injecting epi than I would doing a trachiotomy, as the say, under field conditions. No matter whether you use a pen or a syringe, be sure you've had the guidance of a doctor as to when its use is appropriate and how to give the injection without putting the material directly into an artery or vein. On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Bob Harrison wrote: > I still do > not agree with Lloyds doctor refusing to prescribe a epipen for a full time > adult beekeeper such as Lloyd. The epipen is the method to use *only* when > the throat is closing and restricting air flow. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:37:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Concern about stings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sorry to hop into every discussion, but I have strong feelings about epipens. My friend JR and I have had this discussion many times. He carries an epipen and I do not. We both have worked with bees from the early 70s. We both have novices with us at various times. His philosophy is that the epipen might save a life some day (hah, if it isn't expired from riding around in his glove box). Mine is: I am not allergic to bees and it is the other person's responsibility to look after their own health care needs. I do not want to be in a position of administering medicine to a stranger. Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I am open to a major lawsuit. Right now, the only risk I am taking is that after almost 30 years of getting stung, I will suddenly go into anaphylaxis. That doesn't worry me; I am more worried about cholesterol (which I take medicine for). I do carry a cell phone, but I realize that if I have a heart attack or whatever, I may die before help comes. That's one of the risks of working alone in remote spots. (The plus side is I work in beautiful spots with nobody standing over me telling me what to do.) But I tell anyone who works for me or with me that it is their responsibility to determine whether they can tolerate stings. In the case of actual bee allergies, I recommend avoiding bees altogether. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:30:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I currently have only three hives - one Carniolan, and two Russians. There seem to be very clear differences between the two groups (granted that I'm dealing with a very small representation). The Carniolan builds very fast in Spring, attains considerable size, produces prodigiously, and uses very little propolis. Their temperment seems medium - gentle on nice days, not so gentle otherwise. They are completely defenseless against varroa without treatment. My two Russian hives have nearly identical characteristics, despite the fact that the queens came from very different breeders. They are a bit slow to build at first, but then come on very quickly later in the season. They are *very* gentle, even on less than ideal days. They're considerably darker than my Carniolans, and a bit smaller, and both use gobs of propolis (which is sometimes a bit irritating). They both also seem to build comb in a different manner from the Carniolan - they seem to work from side to side in a super, as opposed to working from the center outward. They seem to produce well, though a bit less than my Carniolan hive. Lastly, as I mentioned in a previous post, they definitely store pollen differently than my Carniolan hive. They salso eem to have some varroa resistance (very few crawlers/k-wing/small abdomen, low mite drop counts) as opposed to my Carniolans. An obvious disclaimer here - I'm assuming that the guy I bought the Carniolan nuc from knew what strain/race he had. > Russians, as you call them, are Carniolans, just living in a separate region. > They are called Primorsky (spelling?) Carniolans. > > George Imirie > I have read conflicting information on the lineage of Russians. Some claim them to be Caucasian, some say Carniolan, some say Macedonian. I think Roger Morse referred to them as Caucasians, and lamented the fact that they produce so much propolis (as I have seen in my hives). My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian lineage? 2) Do my racial observations match up with others? Thanks, Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:56:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I think the term race should be dropped altogether, but especially with > bees. There are certain types, with characteristics, but actually, great > differences occur between hives, so I would hesitate to attribute > characteristics to "type" rather than individual colony. > Peter, Roger Morse referred to at least 26 seperate honey bee races. I understand the symantic nature of these labels (race/strain/subspecies, etc.), but would suggest that the general concept of race is still valid in many discussions of biology (even of humans). I also understand the issue of dilution, which may be clouding the issue more in bee breeding circles than elsewhere. In plant breeding, the term "Land Race" refers to observable differences of a small subset of a variety (which is, itself, a sub-species) - the term is usually applied to food crops which become distinctive due to the regional influences which defined them. Example - thousands of land races of rice have been observed in Asia, where rice farming and plant breeding have been ongoing for milennia. Each land race has specific traits which make it ideal for the area in which it is found (e.g. drought/flood resistance, lodging resistance, pest resistance, etc.). I am not a professional biologist, but I would imagine that *generally* accurate observations can still be made of many bee races today, while acknowledging that there are variations on any given theme. Regards, Todd. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Racial Differences Among Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Todd asked: "My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian lineage? 2) Do my racial observations match up with others?" As far as the Russian bees. Dr Rinderer, when asked replied that he had done the morphometrics on them and they were a carnolian type. Different from the carnolian type in the US at the time but much more like carnolian than caucasian. This also agrees with a beekeeper I coorispond with from Ukraine who tells me that the caucasian types don't winter near as well as the carnolian types and are found naturally occuring in more southern and milder climate areas. These comments agree well with the information on the Russian stock regarding wintering and spring buildup. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I might add I had a reaction which never reached anaphylaxis but feel worth talking about in case another on the list might need the information. In hot weather I wear the least amount of protective gear. Heat stroke can kill (and has beekeepers) in full suits. The temperature was over a 100 with a heat index of around 115F. I only had a T shirt on and took a sting right in the exposed artery on the inside of the elbow. I did not remove the stinger right away as I was working. I started to flush up and get a tremendious itching under my arms and in other areas. I scraped the stinger and returned to the truck. My face was beat red in the mirror. I had two choices. One to drive home (or to a hospital) or jump in a pond about 50 feet away. I chose the pond and felt better right away but took about twenty minutes to return to normal. I have often wondered if the heat was the problem or the bee sting directly into a artery. Comments? Similar experience? Bob Ps. Luckily our local newspaper did not read the next day : "Local beekeeper found dead naked in farm pond from one bee sting to arm" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi - Peter said: =20 >Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to >protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I am >open to a major lawsuit. I agree with Peter, and suggest that the same concern should bother those= who provide bees to arthritic friends for sting apitherapy. If the list-readers include a better lawyer than I am I'd like to hear wh= at he/she may think. (I'm a very poor lawyer, so don't be bashful.) Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:22:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Racial Differences Among Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Todd & All, > My questions are: 1) What is the general consensus as to the Russian > lineage? I have used Carniolans, Italians, Caucasians, Buckfast, and this year a few Russians. In the past few years I have settled pretty much on using Caucasians. From observing the Russians this year I would say they more closely resemble the Caucasians in characteristics. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:36:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Light is inside the hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Hives are not light tight, a limited amount of light does make it into the hive body. I can see very well with only moon light, I would think that there is enough light inside a hive for bees to see there way around. The hive is not pitch dark inside as someone stated it was. A little bit of light can go a long way. Take it from me, who lives in the dark six months of the year, you can see in the dark and so can bees. it only takes a small light source to see. The entrance, whether below or above, is all that is needed for the bees to see there way around. What evidence is there that there is no light inside a hive. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:59:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >If the list-readers include a better lawyer than I am I'd like to hear what >he/she may think. (I'm a very poor lawyer, so don't be bashful.) My brother is a high profile lawyer out of Atlanta , Georgia so I can get free legal advice. His answer was. Helping another in a life or death situation usually only ends up in court if the person dies. In other words if the person lives you are a hero and if the person dies then the death is somehow your fault the family figures. My brother saw giving a jar of bees to a person to use in bee sting therapy and not charging for the service *when* the person was to use the bees away from your bee farm as a case easy to defend in court. I have been giving bees away for the purpose for many years without a problem per his advice. After all I *do* sell bees! What people chose to do with those bees has little to do with me. Are one of the queen breeders liable if a person orders a package and uses the bees to sting all summer and has a reaction ? My brother did say that not charging is important. Pre paid legal services available across the country is a excellent investment for those people always in need of a lawyer. Small monthly fee and unlimited use of a lawyer 24 hours a day. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:34:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Light is inside the hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A couple of weeks ago I returned to Anchorage after a visit to upstate NY. My father has a few hives on his property there. One of the hives had swarmed previously and taken up residence in some old hive bodies. The hive bodies were located inside an old barn. When the barn was closed, as was generally the case, the inside of the building was fairly dark. I imagine the interior of a nest made by bees inside some hive bodies inside a dark barn would not have a great deal of illumination. The bees did seem to know when the weather outside was nice and when it was not and flew accordingly. Also in response to Keith’s remark–we don’t *really* have six months of night time here in Anchorage, it just seems that way. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <000701c27609$102d9080$34ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've found that Panic and Irrational Behavior is common among many who are stung, allergic or not. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > I gleaned the below from talking to two anaphylaxis survivors: > Flushing of the face and severe itching in the area of the underarms are > warning signs of anaphylaxis approaching. Panic and irrational > behavior are > common. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:28:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday (October 17, 2002), I was installing ˝” wire-mesh-mouse-guards now that I was finally on Fall Break, for nightly the mercury had started to sink into the 40’s. Although it was cold in the morning, it was balmy 70’s when I was attaching the wire-guards. There was little wind to speak of. It was one of those paradisal days here on earth right before the cyanide of frost stiffens every living creature. I finished one apiary on an Experimentation Farm [Ladino clover] without any incident, but when I worked on one of my Carniolan hives across town, huge black bees boiled out, as I *gingerly* hammered in three U-shaped, smallest fence nails, on the edges of the hive and one at the center. I wore my veil, but used no smoke, as I wont to, especially since I was wearing my early winter clothing—but was wearing a sandal, over a pair of white, cotton socks. A dozen of them got me on the exposed top of my feet through the sock, forcing me to whimper a fowl language, unawares. The ground zero felt like a pin-cushion that I had to quit the job, walked back to my pick-up, and had to put on a pair of plastic gloves on my feet, the best resource I had under the circumstance. Although my socks gave me some measure of protection, my left foot swelled up, not too much but just enough that I had to loosen my shoestring when I jogged later in the evening. The next day the small swelling had gone completely although I still could feel the sensation of getting stung there. While growing up, I used to have a systemic reaction to ground hornets. But as I get stung numerous times in a given year by honeybees, I feel safe. It seems the first sting in the early spring makes me swell a little since during winter I have not been exposed to any sting. Also, I try to calm myself down *mentally* when I am under a massive attack, say, while taking down a feral colony, trying to be aware what is happening around and inside me, something that I have developed over the years. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:39:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Newbie Humor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Todd, I never wear anything on my legs but blue jeans. When the first bee stings, spray the area with OFF and the bees drift away. Dan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:40:06 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Peter: I have given up beekeeping, but still need to be careful of stings from other sources. Another thing I do is use air conditioning when necessary in the car, and never drive with windows open. the last thing I need is an angry member of hymenoptera in a moving car with me at the wheel! So how do I know where wisdom ends and paranoia begins? : - ) EDW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:54:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward D Heinlein Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:37:06 -0400 Peter Borst writes: >I do not want to be in a position of administering medicine to a stranger. > Medics and paramedics presumably have malpractice insurance to > protect them; if I am involved in a death where I played doctor, I > am > open to a major lawsuit. > In the event of an emergency situation, be it a bee stinging, auto accident, heart attack, or what have you, any person administering aid to the individual(s) in need fall under the "Good Samaritan Law". Yes, you may very well be hauled into court in the event your "patient(s)" were to succumb to the trauma or your actions, however, and this is a BIG however, each person is judged on a different standard of care. What I mean by this is, if you were an individual that had never completed grade school, and I was an EMT, and someone else was a cardiologist, etc., and each of us came upon the same emergency, each of our actions/reactions, would be held to a different "standard of care", based on what each person would be "expected" to know based on their training for such care rendered in the situation. After all it makes sense that an EMT would be better prepared, and have much more extensive knowledge and experience in "emergency situations" than say the basic Joe, therefore, he/she would be expected to respond in a manner commensurate with their qualifications. Having witnessed anaphylaxis in a coworker many years ago, and not knowing what was going on at the time, I WILL carry an epipen, and will not be afraid to use it on myself, or anyone in my presence that is going into anaphylaxis. I will never forget that experience. Fortunately my coworker lived, as we were able to get him to an emergency room just as his bronchi had become totally blocked. It is alarming, the speed with which anaphylaxis can over come an individual. I think it wise to inform anyone of the possibilities that could result from stings. I also believe people need to take responsibility for their decisions(I hate being told what to do). As with any medical procedure, explaining what someone could possibly get into in the bee yard before going in, provides them the opportunity to proceed with informed consent on their part, and accept responsibility for their decisions. Ed Heinlein Helena, MT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:34:50 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Have been reading the various posts re stings. All seem to expect stinging to happen in or around the bee yard. My worst experience came on a Sunday afternoon in our back yard, 20 miles from the hives. One yellow jacket did not like it when I momentarily forgot to be careful and bent over to look at the nest they had built under our deck. One sting on the forearm did the trick. It took some time to push it off my skin. Then , only knowing about bee sting danger, I spent time calling the poison center at hospital, to ask if bee sting allergy applies to wasps. With a yes answer, my daughter quickly drove me to the hospital. We went straight there, instead of using the epi pen, and actually left it at home. In the emergency admitting, my blood pressure read 225 over 195, and they wasted no time getting me an adrenaline shot. The admitting nurse cautioned me that I should have brought the pen with me, because they may not have been able to attend to me even there, if other emergencies were already being treated. With that BP reading in my history, I am surprised at the information in this list that anaphylactic shock produces a low reading. I wonder how this can be explained?? EDW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:08:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if producing wax 1. ages bees or if it 2. extends their life, or if 3. it has no effect on lifespan? Bees hang inactive while making wax. I'm wondering if the process uses irreplaceable resources from the individual bee, if the inactive period slows aging, or neither. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Karen writes: >I've found that Panic and Irrational Behavior is common among many who are stung, allergic or not. ...and often even among those who haven’t been stung: Chapter 27 of The Hive and the Honey Bee has this to say: “On first contact with a beekeeper, members of the general public frequently make statements to the effect that they, or a close relative/friend are ‘highly allergic to bee (or insect) stings and are likely to die if stung again’.” Who out there has never heard that statement before? The rest of the paragraph says: “Besides being unfortunate, incorrect, and misleading, this public perception of the risk from bees is the cause for much unnecessary personal limitation and suffering.” Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:04:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all I am not one to make airy fairy replies, but ... > Does anyone know if producing wax > > 1. ages bees or if it > 2. extends their life, or if > 3. it has no effect on lifespan? Bees that have built wax seem to me to be calmer, more complacent, possibly even fulfilled, Now I know these are human characteristics, but I have no other description to use. The above statement does not address the question directly, but I conjecture that the increased temperature required for wax production causes an increase in the rate of metabolism and thus shortens possible life length. I further conjecture that this reduction is small, because I do not see empirical evidence of it. Not a very concrete statement... perhaps others can add some detail? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:35:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Concern about stings Correction on "Fowl language" [Foul Language] = "Chicken Shit" :) regrett the error. ego scriptor. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:05:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Eating pollen while collecting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have you ever eaten pollen while collecting? In the evening, while collecting the pollen from my traps, I casually tossed into my mouth a handful of fresh pollen—perhaps three or four spoonfuls—and munched on the pellets. I have never done this before, for I was saving the pollen for the next season, but due to today’s drizzle and rain, I thought the collection was not big enough to bother. It tasted dusty-dry and flowery as it passed through my esophagus, mixed with saliva. In about thirty minutes or so, however, my body went into a mild shock. It started to manufacture an incredible amount of histamine to react against this foreign substance in my system. I am allergic to ragweed pollen. The pollen pellets were grey [probably ragweed] and orange [golden rod and late sunflower variety]. My throat, I could feel, started to choke me as my voice started to recede deep into my throat. Upon sensing this mild, yet almost systematic reaction, I took one antihistamine pill, a prescription pill I have been avoiding to take for quite some time, thinking my body had, over the years, built up enough tolerance through my raw honey consumption albeit I had never taken fall honey. All night, nevertheless, my stuffed nose ran the mucus, my blurry eyes started to itch, and I could breathe only through my mouth; to say the least, I could not rest well, especially since I was sleeping on the couch not to bother my wife with my constant sneezing, blowing, and occasional coughing. For me, it was worse than getting stung by a dozen angry bees whose pain dissipates in a short while. I felt as though I was suffering from a self- induced sickness. Only after midnight, as the Chlorphaniramin Maleate (8 mm) and Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride (120 mm) started to work their way into my system, my congestion gradually cleared up, enabling me to breathe through the nose. The next morning I felt OK although it took twelve hours for me to regain my normalcy. I understand I should have taken small doses before the ragweed season to build up my tolerance. I just did not realize a handful of pollen could be this potent. Perhaps this anecdote illustrates how pollen, taken in gradual doses, indeed works. Have you experienced any similar reaction against pollen? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Eating pollen while collecting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Humdinger wrote: > Have you ever eaten pollen while collecting? Yes . The only difference between pollen right from the trap and the pollen i sell is the pollen I sell has been dried at around 95F. (when neccessary). > In the evening, while collecting the pollen from my traps, I casually > tossed into my mouth a handful of fresh pollen-perhaps three or four > spoonfuls-and munched on the pellets. In the fall bees gather ragweed pollen (as you pointed out). You in my opinion downed three or four spoonfuls of ragweed pollen. Hence the reaction. I do not gather and sell pollen during the ragweed season. I actually gather and sell mostly spring tree pollen. There are those customers which swear the pollen helps their allergies but I recommend the fall Wildflower honey with a small amount of suspended ragweed pollen taken a teaspoon a day for thirty days before the start of ragweed season instead. There is no ragweed pollen in the pollen I sell. > I am allergic to ragweed pollen. Ragweed pollen allergies are the most common. Local honey will not help allergies caused by mold. > The pollen pellets were grey [probably ragweed] I believe you are correct. > built up enough tolerance through my raw honey consumption albeit I > had never taken fall honey. The fall raw honey from your area will help you the most in my opinion as contains the suspended ragweed pollen. I have allergies myself and by taking the fall honey during late spring through fall I only have a slightly stuffy nose. I take no other medicene. My nose clears up completely after the first killing freeze. I gather the wildflower honey in the fall and sell all through the next year for allergies. The Wildflower honey I sell has no clover, sweet clover or alfalfa mixed in. Only fall flowers. I make only a small supply and sell at the markets by request. The true wildflower is not on display. I have lost half my wildflower production hives to varroa by treating to late on two separate occasions. You can get the wildflower honey yourself if you put on supers late in the season after the clover is over and are willing to pass up on fall treatments of any kind. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. said: > I was installing ?" wire-mesh-mouse-guards... > ...huge black bees boiled out, as I *gingerly* hammered in three > U-shaped, smallest fence nails, on the edges of the hive and one at the center. I'd leave the hammer and nails in the toolbox next time. We use thumbtacks. I like the "old-style", with the flat silver or colored metal heads, not the newer cheap plastic push-pin type. Walk up, position the mesh, and push in thumbtacks No hammering, no dropped nails, no banged fingers, and if it is cool or dusk and the bees are inside, they never even notice you are there. The tacks pry out with a hive tool, another silent and vibration-free process. Another trick is to carry a single a strip of 8-mesh (or even window screen) that is slightly narrower and thinner than the mouse guards. Align the two, which are assumed to be pre-bent in a 90-degree angle, place in position, hold in place with one finger above the entrance, and press thumbtacks into the mouse guard (but not the 8-mesh) with the other hand. The 8-mesh keeps any guard bees on the inside of the mesh until you are done, and you can pluck the 8-mesh from the entrance after you have finished attaching the mouse guard, stepped out of the flight path, and made your face a less convenient/temping target. (I can't remember the last time I got stung when dealing with mouse guards, but it has been years and years.) We love thumbtacks. We use colors that match the yearly queen colors to "date" frames, we use them to "anchor" apistan strips to frame top bars so they don't fall down onto the bottom board, and to mark locations on woodenware with "leak spots" where bees have found ad-hoc entrances. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice, I have noted your comments to the Bee-L for some time, but now you are commenting on bee stings. Although I am a retired scientist and NOT a medical physician, I do have something to say relative to your question to Peter, i. e., "where wisdom ends and paranoia begins". Unfortunately, many readers are going to disagree with me, but surely not alter my opinion. The "general run" of allergists might be great for treating "hay fever", but know precious little about honey bee stings. Some do not even know the difference between apis mellifera, bombus, and vespula, and even refer to all three as BEES. Treating of hay fever or itching is "where the money is" and not the aggravation of desensitizing a person truly allergic to honey bee stings. I "found out" the "hard way" forty years ago. I started beekeeping in 1933 and had 65 colonies in 1963, and was getting relatively few stings, maybe only 5-10 per day of bee work. One late afternoon, I was making an artificial swarm and had thousands of bees on the grass, and I was dressed only in shorts and tee-shirt (my hot-weather bee 'outfit"). Suddenly, I received about 30-40 stings particularly around my face. I was driven to a hospital who gave me a shot of adrenaline as a precaution, and the doctors suggested that I give up beekeeping. I consulted some local allergists and soon discovered that their knowledge of bee sting venom was quite limited. Then, I was informed that there were two FAMOUS honey bee venom scientists at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, just 50 mile away. I made an appointment with Dr. Golden, and later Dr. Valentine, both quite famous now for their study of honey bee venom action on humans, and how to DESENSITIZE a person. I did NOT want to stop beekeeping, nor did I want to wear a lot of protective clothing. They could and would desensitize me with a series of about 200 shots of an increased dosage of venom with each shot. However, Dr. Golden just happen to say that I was NOT getting enough stings each year to maintain a histamine titer that would essentially immunize me to stings. That was 40 years ago, and I still keep bees, but only 20 colonies now due to my age and having suffered 5 strokes during the last 12 years; but I get stung ON PURPOSE 2-3 times every week INCLUDING WINTER when I open a hive and grab a bee and force it to sting me. I have not swollen or had welts in 40 years even from those rare times when I have gotten 20-30 stings all at once. You too, can be desensitized to honey bee stings, by a KNOWLEDGEABLE allergist you specializes in this. I think both Dr. Golden and Dr, Valentine are either retired or dead now, but Johns Hopkins should be able to tell you if they have anyone to replace them. I am NOT going to answer those readers who want to argue with me, tell me that I am crazy, or their allergist is the Number One Allergist in the country. I know what happened to me, and some other patients of Drs. Golden and Valentine, and we all have continued to keep bees WITHOUT ANY STING PROBLEMS after desensitizing. I hope I have helped, and you can be relieved of sting fear by a COMPETENT allergist who really understands honey bee venom action. The problem is finding them. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Ending my 70th year of beekeeping near Washington DC Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Member of American Association of Professional Apiculturists Author of George's Monthly PINK PAGES Author of semimonthly Hobbyist Tips for American Beekeeping Federation News ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:13:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Margaret Hala Subject: Re: concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all. I don't usually reply to postings, but feel I'm qualified in this instance. I've been through the antifilactic shock and anti-venom shot series, and will and do carry an epi-pen, and will use it on another when and if I feel it's needed. You KNOW when you need the epi-pen when the time comes. You can feel your throat swelling, you've quit sweating, your heart is pounding, you're flushed, weak, dizzy, nauseated, etc. All those good things. Also, we as beekeepers know the toxisity of bee venom, and I feel we could be charged with neglect in the case of a newcomer getting stung especially in a bee yard and having a severe reaction because we didn't act appropiately. Pointing the veichle towards the way out only works if yu're alert enough to drive. If not, if you're too confused or whatever, you're in trouble. Better to give your self a shot and then go to the hospital. Keeping bees anyway. Does that make me dumb or brave? Margaret Hala ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:42:19 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen et al, Straight away I state that most of the following is pure speculation! You wrote that "bees hang inactive while making wax" presumably meaning that they are relatively immobile whilst "festooned" - hanging in a loose net like configuration. They only appear to take up this position during wax formation. Complementary question - why? They are during this state, presumably being metabolically very active - converting sugars to fats and waxes. This will be requiring consumption of energy resources, which presumably will be destructive of cellular components - these being repaired, or replaced to a certain degree. These processes will require use of amino acids, fatty acids etc. etc. Presumably, during and after a period of activity, the genetic timetable (through gene damage, closure of gene expression) results in an reduction or total inability to repair. Therefore during wax formation, high rates of cellular oxidation processes are taking place with sugars being metabolized, proteins being generated. Resulting in fat / waxy products. Conclusion: I suggest that this has a toll on the general well being of the individual bee when a comparison is made between those that have and those that have not generated wax. What to my mind appears to be difficult to estimate or define is the "wear out factor" for each role undertaken by an adult honey bee. i.e. The life span may be considered as 100%. and just for example: (see below*) bees that have produced wax for 24 hours consume 5% of their 100% metabolic allotment. bees that produce material from the hypo pharyngeal glands over 72 hours consume 7% bees that forage 21 days for nectar 60% etc., etc. Depending what roles are undertaken and for how long, each bee gradually moves towards its final flight. To my mind, wax production moves the imaginary metabolic slide marker towards the buffers at the end of the rail. Bees age. If it were possible to get a situation where a bee is followed having done "nothing" other than nectar foraging - would it be "metabolically fitter" to undertake the task for a longer period of time ( barring accidental termination before arriving at the 100% empty sign!). Differences between so called summer and winter bees may give some insight into this topic. Bound to be suggested figures out there somewhere. Especially as allotted time periods have been produced for the average honey bee (these showing differences in time span according to bee "type"). So, question*: Is task dependent aging allocation a % of 100%, or time dependent. i.e. Two bees bee "a" has life span of 6 weeks bee "b" has life span of 8 weeks Which is the case? both undertake wax production - same period duration, using 5% of their allotted life span, or both undertake wax production - same period duration, with bee a and b using 24 hours of their allotted life span. Respond or bin - depending on your fancy!! Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do bees do to cap worker cells in January/February - do they produce wax scales from scratch or do they use wax from other areas in the hive ? Waldemar Long Island, NY ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:07:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: Concern about stings Jim, Thumbtack idea sounds great, indeed. An ole hand in beekeping advised me not to staple the wire, although he did not mention about using thumbtacks, because racoons, possums, and skunks CAN rip the wire right out of the entrance. If thumbtacks can withstand such force, I will try them next time. Since I am on that topic, I often wonder how serious the mouse damage can be in the *south* because the warm weather often allows the bees cleansing flights even in the depth of winter. If so, couldn't they simply or eventually kill the mouse inside the hive? Of course, I realize that the damage had already been done then. Since I have been putting mouse-guards every year, I cannot tell how serious the mouse damage can be. . . . Depressed, thinking of spring already. . . . Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:21:47 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick asked: > Does anyone know if producing wax > > 1. ages bees or if it > 2. extends their life, or if > 3. it has no effect on lifespan? That's an interesting question. The bees are taking in lots of sugars, and doing some fairly fancy chemistry, but is this "work"? How much "work" is it? If you have one of cheap non-contact "point in the ear" thermometers, I'd suspect that you can measure thorax temperatures of bees that are hanging around making wax. I can't imagine that making wax would generate anywhere near the thorax temperatures (and thereby indicate that "heavy work" was being done) that flight, fanning, or thermoregulation would. Yes, I am using a very simplistic model of a bee, and a bee is clearly not a classic "black body" or a "heat engine", but there should be a direct connection between "heat dissipation" and "wear and tear" on the bee. My view of bee lifespans (to date) has been to compare them to airframes. Bees only have so many "miles of flight" or "flight hours" in them. Bees that do not fly much (winter clustering bees) clearly live longer than foraging bees, but it is ALSO strictly true that bees hatched in fall do not draw much comb, if any. So, how to measure and compare making wax to not making wax? We could set up a test in an observation hive next spring. Too late now - everyone is snug in wooden hives for the winter, and the empty observation hive in my office has a tiny sign saying: For Rent 30,000 Bedrooms 0 Baths Lots of Closet Space! ...placed there by someone who clearly needs me to assign them a heavier workload. So, let's assume we tag emerging bees to test this: 1) How might I prevent a group of bees from making wax? I have no idea, but I need a "control group". 2) How do I ensure that everyone in the "wax makers" group makes a similar amount of wax? I am clueless. 3) How do I know if I am measuring "natural lifespans" or doing nothing but counting the number of hostile territory mission casualties of the 159th Aerial Reconnaissance Squadron? Regardless, I don't see how "natural lifespan" is a relevant issue for more than a small percentage of bees. It seems very clear to me that very few bees survive all their foraging sorties and are able to live long enough to die of "natural causes" where we might see them and count them: a) Pick a minimal "number of eggs laid per day". Let's say 1,500 b) Assume that we have no mission casualties. Every bee returns from every sortie. c) This would mean that about 1,500 bees a day would die in the hive. Assuming 12 hours of daylight, this means that the "undertakers" would have to remove 2 dead bees every minute to keep up with the average rate of 1,500 deaths per day and keep the bottom board from becoming buried in dead bees. Even 720 deaths per day would imply one dead bee carried out per minute. I have never seen anything close to this many dead bees being carried out in an hour, and I have spent many an hour idly wandering among hives watching flight operations while pretending to pay attention to yet another boring conference call on a cordless phone. A small number of bees do die of "old age" in the hive, and can see them being carried out, even on fine flying days. So not all bees will attempt a "final mission" from which they will never return. Perhaps they are too "worn out" to take off one more time. Therefore, I'd guess that very few bees live a "full natural lifespan", and most die senseless premature deaths while foraging. I guess the "proof" one way or the other would be tracking marked forager take-offs, to see if most foragers fail to return after roughly the same number of flights, flight hours, or days of life. But most old bees clearly don't die at home. Most appear to end up "missing in action, presumed dead". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:58:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Does Wax Production Age Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & all > What do bees do to cap worker cells in January/February - do they produce > wax scales from scratch or do they use wax from other areas in the hive ? Judging by the colouration of the cappings... The very earliest coin sized groups of cells are capped by re-cycled wax. By the time that the cluster has become a hollow sphere rather than a ball with a hole in it. There is adequate volume inside the cluster for festooning and wax production. The cappings of the disc shaped brood patches (which are now honey jar lid sized) have a progressively lighter colouration, suggesting a progressive admixture of fresh wax with re-cycled wax. (probably running out of easily reached wax to re-cycle) In full Summer, colonies that have relatively new light coloured comb produce lighter coloured cappings than bees that have older combs, which suggests that there is always some wax recycling going on. Having said that... Cappings over honey are (or can be) almost totally white indicating that the wax used here is freshly generated. These are observations about wax useage, they have no bearing on the ageing process. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 05:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. said: > ...although he did not mention about using thumbtacks, because racoons, > possums, and skunks CAN rip the wire right out of the entrance. Not if they never reach that far. "Carpet tack strips" attached to the leading edges of bottom boards appear to be effective "discouragement" for the smaller "problem" mammals. As I understand it, all these animals reach up with a paw and try to scratch at the entrance area. I assume that those who try very quickly "get my point". :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:29:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <200210182128.g9ILJgPx022829@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <200210182128.g9ILJgPx022829@listserv.albany.edu>, "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." writes >I was installing ½” wire-mesh-mouse-guards Why? Do you not have the standard reversible bottom boards? The shallow side (normally 3/8") is that way for a reason. It is too small for the entry of mice. Turn the boards over and allow entrance on the shallow side and mouse entry is then really very rare indeed (just the very occasional baby mouse or shrew). Mouse guards are then a thing of the past. FWIW we use the shallow side up all year round and the bees like it fine (although we never get California style heat). Persistent pests, like rats or bigger, CAN rip out thumbtacks, but then they can also chew through the side of the box if they wish (especially if cedar is used). Banging in fence staples is asking for a good stinging unless well protected. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:04:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Owen Watson Subject: Paul Theroux In-Reply-To: <20021018223937.14436.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" http://www.commonwealthclub.org/01-05theroux-speech.html Paul Theroux (the noted author) on keeping bees in Hawaii, Chinese honey imports (he claims they adulterate their honey with corn syrup), and the great beekeeper in literature. -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: FGMO Comments: To: Allen Dick Allen History : Apistan , coumaphose ,menthol , grease patties essential oils , FA , TerramYcin from 1995 to early fall 2000' Modified Sbb since 1999. TM encountered once and checked by lab. Total wipe out .TBH kenya type > . Infestation 100 % . was a swarm inmherited . Behavior : Bees look fine but cannot fly , congrugate and perish. ( Well observed , location on flat white roof. ) No lab tests after ever . Year of tm 1995. During applied miticides heavy drop onto sticky boards or catchboard below screen. Estimated drop after / during treament with Coumaphose 8000. Since 2000 used FGMO , cords and fog . Fogger did not work right . emulsion and cords was not quite applied properly . So. whatever influence it had : Unknown. Therefore used coumaphose once more to be sure . Began fog and emusion late fall/ winter 2000 into 2001 . Amount of colonies from 16 to max of 27 . Losses due to starving , too small and weather causing no gathering when required . Starved . ( March 2002 ) Location Wash. state Olympic Peninsula . No phoretic mites detected at any time . Minimal mites found in drone cells. Removable checkboards afford daily check of "drop off's" . This is not stricktly adhered to . Sometimes 2 weeks pass without . Until 4 weeks ago all drop offs are under 10 .alcohol checks = 0%. One colony 50 daily incl males and immature females .. In the beginning of drop some mites were alive . Now all dead ones . Alcohol check :2.5 %. Now drop diminishing to low teens . All other colonies drop either nil or below 5 or below 10 . No significant drop after fogging. The frequency of the emulsion cords depends on the ferocity to clean the cords by the bees . I found it required at a 2 week interval. Now use 4 cords per brood box ( Deep) No losses due to mites before or after FGMO other than mentioned above . No mites found with alcohol wash in dead bees on the screens. No foul brood of any kind. Nosema prior to FGMO. No residue detected by visual ( Which meas nothing ) No taste of Oil either in honey.Fogging two week interval plus / minus few days .Continous application during honeyflow also. Some colonies have some 4.9 and now the frames / combs are positioned by the "Housel " Method . I find the method of FGMO very effective and also must recommend the two kinds of application . One appears to compliment the other . In any case . I am still testing methods which are different and appear not to adversly affect the bees , also are not too expensive . The fogging device must be applied properly as per instructions . At this time I find no adversity and the bees are calm , are gathering still pollen and possibly nectar. From where :???? . This year they collected heavy stores for themselves . I do not feed syrup . Never saw "chewed " Cappings or removed brood to an extent noticable . No crippled wing syndrome since 2001 . And those were very few. Drones disappeared to where ??? Some are still with the colonies . Yellow jackets still a problem this year . As mentioned in another post , see Beesource.com. for lab reports and pertinent details of the testing done by Dr Rodriguez et al. Regards JDF ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:06:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to suggest that there is any source of Inspired Truth on the net other than BEE-L, but alt.med.allergy might interest some of our group. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Winter is coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Winter is coming and with it, beekeeping conventions and meetings. Me? I'm off to the BCHPA, then the ABA, then the AHPC. After that, hopefully, the OBA, the CHC, then the ABF and the AHPA... Wow! We have fun here on the list -- I've made close life-long friends here on BEE-L. We make friends and swap opinions -- and sometimes even facts here in hyperspace -- but there is no substitute for being there and meeting face-to-face on the ground. When you go to these events -- take a hammer to the piggy bank if you must -- you WILL meet well-known, published scientists, famous -- and infamous -- bee writers and authors in person, as (very) ordinary people, face -to-face, and get a chance to talk straight up. They will listen to you (until two AM). At these meeting, there is no ivy curtain There is no ivory tower. For North American apis mellifera addicts, probably the major events are the AHPA and the ABF conventions in January and the International Conference coming up in Niagara Falls this December. Of course, there are also all the state, provincial and local events. Each and every one is carefully organised and full of valuable info with amazing speakers. I'm going to try to be at all I can. We'll see how I last. I hope to see lots of BEE-L people wherever I go, and I always do. Bee there. allen Still very, very sorry for missing EAS... http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoon Subject: Re: Concern about stings Murray, No, I do not use reversible bottoms. I monkey my own [an oxymoron: how many Ph.D's does it take to make a bottom board?] bottom boards, and I do not carpenter to create a "Winter" bottom, which many would argue as "obsolete," too. (I am just too lazy to switch even if I had them.) Since I offer a little crack between the outercover and the inner cover, I thought wire-mesh, mouse-guards on summer-entrance would provide more vent in the winter. I am sorry for changing the topic here, but how serious is the mouse damage in the south? Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Concern about stings So, to put a positive spin on things, what does everyone feel about bee stings and arthritis? My wife could barely walk on a foot with a toe swollen and red which had gotten steadily worse for months. Caveat: She never asked a doctor about it, so I don't know for sure what it was. Last year, I stung the toe, and she swelled up around the foot for a day or so, and the pain is just starting to come back slowly after a year. Same for a finger which was painful to move. Not 100% effective, but very much improved. She doesn't take stings well, but she actually asked me to sting her finger after seeing what happened with her toe. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:34:07 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Concern about stings In-Reply-To: <200210201427.g9KEPaQD013827@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >what does everyone feel about bee >stings and arthritis? 1 Generalities would appear to be inapplicable. 2 The term 'arthritis' covers a range of conditions & causes (somewhat like 'cancer'). It would be surprising at this rate if any one treatment fits all. 3 I have found considerable help from stings contributed in a voluntary uncontrolled way within cm of arthritic joints in foot & ankle. Give it a go! R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:44:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Installing landing board stuff (was concern about stings) In-Reply-To: <5wUH$JCXtls9EwYm@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For what it's worth, we use ceramic coated deck screws (1-2 cents US if bought in quantity) to both install landing board gizmos and to assemble hive bodies. Even if you predrill (a good idea through "fingers" of the box joint or small dimension entrance reducers to cut down on splitting, we judge the pay off is long term. A portable drill with a phillips bit in it makes quick work of both installation and deinstallion. Leave the screw in the wooden piece (one screw is sufficient for an entrance reducer of placed near the middle. Drill can be carried in a hip holster. Bees ared unconcerned with the noise of the drill: no banging. > Persistent pests, like rats or bigger, CAN rip out thumbtacks, but then > they can also chew through the side of the box if they wish (especially > if cedar is used). Banging in fence staples is asking for a good > stinging unless well protected. > -- > Murray McGregor --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:23:42 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Margaret I posed the same question "dumb or brave" to a much younger beekeeper a few years back. His reply "Everyone needs a few left turns in life"! EDW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:38:32 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you . This is very valuable information and I will save it . As you say, finding a competent allergist is very difficult. In the meantime, since regular stings are not available at present, it seems wiser to avoid any. Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee research Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, tpaine/ucrac1.ucr.edu@west.net, PayneT@missouri.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" During the past few weeks we have had considerable exchange about treatment for varroa and residues of chemical treatments in beeswax. Perhaps for a little variety we can return to the topic of bee research. On 13 June, Scott Moser wrote a very perceptive piece about how scientists conduct research, including the following comment (abbreviated and modified here, with my alteration in brackets): "Also, be objective. Don't try to make the results meet your hypothesis. This is a good example of "poor science". A failed experiment has merit, and is a starting place for further study. Lastly, know your terminology. Most of what we deal with is hypothesis, not theory. A theory is a hypothesis [for which no exceptions have been found]. A law is a theory that has been shown to be absolutely true every time." I didn't have time to respond to Scott's excellent comments at the time but can now do so. 1) Some years ago I gave an invited lecture in New Jersey about scientific method. My host liked the presentation so much that he had me write a summary for publication that can be viewed at the following web site (thanks to Barry Birkey): www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/biossep1993 2) Despite all of the animal behavior research conducted these past several decades, I know of only one "law" (in Scott's sense) that has emerged in that field: "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." Quite simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find a source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down current - in the case of fish and the like). Karl von Frisch had a grasp of elements of that law in the late 1930s and early 1940s, as can be seen at the following web sites: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/bw1993 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943 A failure to recognize the validity of such laws (e.g., the Earth travels around the Sun; dinosaurs lived on Earth hundreds of millions years ago) can have serious consequences - especially in science. If all goes well, next month I will have another publication in print on this topic, one which Barry Birkey will likely include in beesource.com. May you all have a Happy Halloween! Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:02:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Pollen Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do-it-yourself beekeepers: American Bee Journal issues of May 1999 and July 1999 have do-it-yourself articles for making a screened bottom board and pollen trap. A bit of head scratching may be required as you follow the articles, but nothing you shouldn’t be able to figure out. The May issue covers building the screened board with debris/mite collector. The July issue covers building a pollen trap for the bottom board. In the July issue, the author mentions using two pieces of 1/4 inch mesh hardware cloth for the trap since it is more readily available. However, Betterbee (800) 632-3379 does carry the 3/16 inch or 5 mesh hardware cloth. Dadant probably still has the back issues available for sale. Dadant’s email is dadant@dadant.com Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:15:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE_L_Moderator Subject: VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH] Please read this entire article before replying to messages or posting to BEE-L. It provides essential information for all BEE-L subscribers. BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. 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A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Concern about stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I had a similar experience over the Summer where, like you, 100+ Deg. temperatures had me in shorts and T-shirt with a tie on veil. Got all the way down into the bottom box of a large colony and took perhaps 10 stings on my bare shins & calves. I quickly retreated to my truck and put on my full suit - in my haste though I neglected to take out the stingers and got the full venom load from each of the stings I'm sure. I finished the hive and perhaps 30 minutes later was relaxing in the shade when I noticed myself feeling funny. For the first time in my life I suffered a episode of heat stroke. Fortunately the hive I was checking was at my folk's house and they called an ambulance as I lost consciousness. After I got in the air conditioning and cooled myself off I started feeling much better. No trip to the hospital and the EMTs assured me it was heat stroke and not a reaction to the venom. My blood pressure checked normal. I'm no doctor but it seems to me that a sting can exacerbate the conditions that lead to heat stoke. Especially if the stinger is left in and gives the full dose of venom. Now it's water, water, water, when I'm in the bee yard on a hot day. I also make sure I get the stingers out ASAP. Billy Smart Rock, KS I have often wondered if the heat was the problem or the bee sting directly into a artery. Comments? Similar experience? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:16:27 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian said: > "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." > Quite simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find > a source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down > current - in the case of fish and the like). Not to nit-pick, but the above otherwise reasonable statement does not address the case of "no wind" conditions. The "only" is therefore a tad strong. With "no wind" there is a certain radius for an "odor" where particles that can be detected as "the odor" is distributed by what comes down to "Brownian motion" of the air due to temperature alone. For example, take a sealed box, and put some PDB crystals into it for a day. No matter where you put your sensor, the PDB odor will be detected. Once you start "sniffing", you can find the actual PDB crystals by strength of the odor alone. The easiest example of this would involve a stack of supers, each with an "upper entrance" hole, each plugged with a cork. The "sensor" would be your nose, sniffing at each hole as your open them one at a time. Once an animal chances upon even a faint odor, they can move about and find the source through a mix of random moves and subsequent "sniffs" to decide if the odor is stronger of weaker, in a olfactory game of "blind man's bluff". No air motion is required to play. Does it work in an absolute sense? Sure. Insect mating and activity is often studied in sealed terrariums lacking ventilation, and hence, airflow. What's the best example of an ecosystem with no wind most of the time? A cave. One only has "wind" in a deep cave when barometric air pressure changes are in progress. Once the pressure equalizes between the cave and the surface, there is no "breeze", "upwind", or "downwind" in dead-end chambers and passages. Caves also contain pools of water with no current for an aquatic example. Some have weird-looking fish with no eyes. (If you come upon such a pool and you are not with an experienced caver, note that getting wet is often fatal for amateur spelunkers, so don't even think about wading across, no matter what is just across the water.) jim (who recently dead-ended in a maze of twisty passages, and thought briefly about airflow in caves) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:55:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Honey house windows Hello all, We are in the process of framing a honey house in in a larger building. What kind of a system do we use on the window in the hot room that will let the bees out, either plain outside or into a hive, and not back in again? Any ideas would be appreciated! Also size if possible. Thanks, Carmenie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:08:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Downwind from odor sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Adrian writes: >"... be objective. Don't try to make the results meet your >hypothesis. This is a good example of "poor science" ... Despite >all of the animal behavior research conducted these past several >decades, I know of only one "law" (in Scott's sense) that has >emerged in that field: "The Law of Odor-Search Behavior." Quite >simply put, that law is the simple fact that an animal can find a >source of odor ONLY by coming in from downwind (or from down current >- in the case of fish and the like). Adrian states that bees find floral sources only by odor, and that they go upwind to find them. But it occurred to me that there me be another reason why bees go upwind rather than downwind. Bees may have learned that going downwind is much riskier than flying upwind. If you go upwind light you can sail downwind heavy. If you fly downwind light, it will be much harder to beat your way back fully loaded, especially of the wind increases. (Similarly, I have a rule never to drive downhill in unfamiliar terrain -- it's an invitation to get stuck. You can usually back down from a muddy hill but if you slide down you may never get back up.) But to credit bees with such insight would be to grant them more capabilities than some people are willing to do. On the other hand, it could just be an adaptive thing. Bees that fly upwind to nectar sources may have had an evolutionary edge. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:18:33 +1300 Reply-To: Chris Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Subject: Fw: Bees and 1080 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: Bees and 1080An interesting observation, and concerning from several = viewpoints. Chris Smuts ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lmarshall@doc.govt.nz=20 To: smuts@hnpl.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: FW: Bees and 1080 Leigh Marshall=20 Fauna Ecologist=20 Technical Support Unit=20 Waikato Conservancy=20 Department of Conservation=20 Private Bag 3072, HAMILTON=20 ph (07) 858 1025 (VPN 6025)=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Murray, Neil Golden Bay AO =20 Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 10:18 a.m.=20 To: L\Animal Pests=20 Subject: Bees and 1080=20 Here in Golden Bay we recently had an interesting situation to do with = bees visiting our loading site during a 1080 operation. For the 11am to = 2pm period these bees made great efforts to collect what appeared to be = the dust from the pellets but may have been the cinnamon oil. Whatever = it was they were collecting they left each time with bright green pollen = sacks and proved impossible to keep out of the loading hoppers. The hives were in close proximity (150m) as the beekeeper had chosen not = to move them due mainly to the fact that we had run a number of previous = operations from the site with the bees there and never had any problems. = The heli operators also noted that they had recently carried out = operations with bees in even closer proximity with no worries. Has anyone else ever had any problems with bees visiting? This is = definitely something to watch out for. Luckily the bee keeper wasn't too = upset and the bees are not in the business of making honey at that time = of the year. We would certainly be insisting the bees be moved next = time. Neil Murray=20 Golden Bay Area Office=20 Dept of Conservation=20 Ph 03 5258026=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Attention:=20 This e-mail (and attachments) is confidential and may be legally = privileged.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------