From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:37:39 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,DEAR_SOMETHING,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E42B48F5B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3s6010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0211A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 186256 Lines: 4236 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Bio-security MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hate to burst any bubbles but bees from down under are already coming = into the states through Canada. You can bring bees into the states from = Canada.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey R Hills Subject: Bees Hurt by Cold? - Top Entrance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark H. asked: "What would be the best way to provide this ventilation between brood boxes? A drilled hole? Some other way?" I drill a semicircular hole front and center on the bottom half of the inner cover. The way to do this is to clamp together two inner covers and drill the hole so each cover gets half of the hole! Bees (even package bees accustomed to the availability of a bottom entrance only) immediately prefer this simple top entrance and use it almost exclusively within a week after being given a choice of top or bottom entry. This top entrance also provides all the winter ventilation needed. A piece of blue stryrofoam-type insulation between the inner cover and the telescoping cover completes the job in winter. Ask me for a digital picture of this arrangement. Jeff Hills Hills' Pure Gold Dorset, Vermont ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Bees hurt by cold In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:57 PM 10/31/02 -0600, you wrote: > Hi Mark and Everyone, > >Mark asked > >"What would be the best way to provide this ventilation between brood >boxes? A drilled hole? Some other way?" I use a box that serves as an inner cover, ventilation box, an insulated cover (with the addition of a sheet of insulation inside the box) and and upper entrance. It's a combination of ideas from Bee-Culture, some supply catalogs, and several more experienced bee keepers. (Why use a different piece of hardware for each function?) It might be overkill, and even unnecessary, and I only one winters use to testify to their usefullness. Lost no hives (12) last winter and all were extremely strong in late march with plenty of stores. I'll have to see how this year goes. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DONALD M CAMPBELL Subject: Re: Bees hurt by cold Hi All, This is my first winter with the bees ( 3 hives). It's been pretty cold here in upstate New York below freezing at night and it will warm up to the low 50s, if it sunny, during the day. I've noticed a few dozen bees dead in the front of the hives on almost on a daily basis. They have plenty of honey and looked large and healthy a month ago. Being new to this, should I be concerned or is this the normal die off for this time of the year? Thanks Don ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:41:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: FWIW: Re: thickness of the hive wall In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article , Mats Andersson writes >Murray McGregor wrote about his bees in Scotland and the difference >between plastic and wooden boxes... > >And i'd like to ask him: what race are these bees? Are they Buckfast? >Do you have experiences from several races and if yes - do your >statements cover all those regarding spring buildup in different hive >types? The best bees in terms of results in our area are carnica/mellifera crosses, and the top colonies of both this and some straight mellifera gave well over 50Kg of heather honey this year, in polystyrene. We have some Buckfast, and have had them from various breeders over the years and never found any of them to be of much use here, but keep looking. Trouble is, what is a Buckfast? From various breeders they turn up in every conceivable colour from very dark to custard yellow. The dark ones are generally the better here, but still not up to standard. Our remaining Buckfasts in polystyrene this year are very strong, and occupy at least as many boxes as the dark bees, but crucially they have no honey at all in the bottom box, and only a little in the second one, whereas the black bees have honey all the way to the bottom of the hive bar their central clustering area. Caucasia are OK up to a point, but do go down spectacularly with tracheal mites. I have also tried, and gradually rejected, cecropia, macedonica and ligustica. All display similar crop characteristics to the Buckfasts. All build up well in a similar pattern in polystyrene, although the upswing in the black mellifera is the most spectacular (albeit from a considerably smaller spring cluster size) > >Between what dates will Dandelions typically be in bloom over there? >Just trying to compare your early season to ours (Stockholm, Sweden), >where Dandelion bloom often begins early May 1:st and ends by the >beginning of June. Sorry, we do not get much of a dandelion bloom here as nearly all the land is arable. On roadsides they bloom in late April mainly but also through into May. Oilseed rape (canola) from the autumn sowing comes into flower at around the same time. Hope this helps. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:11:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <001401c27fb2$9c94d120$77ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001401c27fb2$9c94d120$77ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >> If I could afford it at this time I would convert the lot over to the >> polystyrene and have a big fire of the wooden ones. > >We are not fans of the polystyrene hive in the U.S. except for hobby >beekeepers on permanent locations. They simply do not work in migratory >beekeeping as they will not stack. We use four hives to the skid and stack >four skids high. Sorry Bob, I just cannot follow that. I use them and I am migratory. Sure I am not using a four pallet high stack on a truck, but we do manually stack them three high, in a non palletised load. I see no reason whatsoever to prevent them being worked on pallets just the same as wooden hives. > >Many sideliners have found out the hard way when they try to sell their >beehives that the migratory beekeeper will simply not pay money for >telescoping covers, inner covers and bottom boards. We do not buy what we do >not use. Not normally looking to disagree with you here but I think you are being unduly conservative in your judgement on this. (The first answer that jumped into my head was 'Tough!') I, and I bet most people, do not invest in professional kit with the end object being its sale. The end object is to make a living with it, and the sale scenario only comes into play when you either fail or give up or reduce. Given our crop statistics, I'm afraid that after only 2 seasons we have covered the entire difference between the assumption of a sale value for colonies in wooden boxes, and the assumption that the value in polystyrene is sweet zero. Anything more than two years and you are far better off, even if the end game is a large bonfire. > >If the sideliner had his equipment in polystyrene hives all he has which >*might* interest me is the 20 frames of bees. I probably would not be >interested if I had to come up with wooden shells to put his bees in. See above. > >If you put you hives on skids other than industry standards those most >likely will not be bought ........large snip......... >as many a new migratory beekeeper has found out. Where did I advise any US coast to coast operator to move over? I am in a northern scenario and my longest move is no more than 150 miles. Bees uplifted in the morning are on their new crop by the middle of the day. The big advantage of these hives is their warmth. In the situation you describe, without change tops for travelling (mesh, as we are having built right now, for a special multi colony stacking arrangement where the floor of the hive above engages with the screened top to prevent any movement yet give plentiful ventillation), you would cook the lot. Heat retention is a doubl;e edged sword. It cuts winter losses dramatically. It can increase migratory overheating equally dramatically. >I give friendly advice so you can get the most out of your operation when >the only possible buyer might be the local commercial migratory beekeeper. There is no evidence in Europe to suggest they are any less valuable than wooden on the second hand market. In some parts, such as Scandinavia, this market has reversed, and polystyrene hives are now the thing, and wooden are hard to shift. If I ever do fully palletise, it will be designed to take the polystyrene boxes. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:28:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bees hurt by cold? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As a personal goal of mine is to get > beekeepers to open up their hives with ventilation (winter and summer), I > think it is worthwhile to provide a word or two on the difference in > perspectives, and why I think (despite Allen's worthwhile experience and > thoughts) that beekeepers should adopt the position that 'cold does not hurt > bees'. I think we need to be objective here. If viewed from a true/false perspective, the statement: 'cold does not hurt bees', easily fails the test of truth, and thus must be considered a false statement. Cold does indeed hurt bees, and under some circumstances will kill them. The fact that under many conditions strong clusters of healthy bees can endure cold does not mean that it does not hurt them, nor even that it is good for them. The same is true of ventilation. Appropriate amounts of ventilation are beneficial to bees, but excess amounts can be deadly. In either case, the size and condition of the honeybee cluster determines the degree of tolerance. Weak, small clusters are much more susceptible to the effects of either excess cold or excess ventilation. Baby nucs for mating, for example are sometimes killed or damaged by unexpected cold accompanied by wind. I know what you are trying to say and can see that you are (over)simplifying for effect. I can understand using hyperbole for emphasis. My concern is that inexperienced listeners who may lack perspective will believe things that are not universally true. Tyros often do have weak colonies and will wonder why their bees died if they think that they do not need to mitigate ambient conditions, even in locations that are somewhat south. Wrapping and/or insulation can be beneficial in many circumstances for protecting weaker colonies, and these are useful tools that any good beekeeper should consider under appropriate circumstances. FWIW, we do wrap with insulation, but also provide upwards ventilation. This may seem to be contradictory -- blowing hot and cold with the same mouth -- but we use the best effects of both to help the bees achieve comfortable conditions. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bio-security MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Drutchas said: > bees from down under are already coming into the > states through Canada. That's a misleading statement. Read on... > You can bring bees into the states from Canada. Yes, you can. Colonies and nucs and whatever. But not packages or queens fresh off the plane from NZ or Oz. That would be "illegal trans-shipment", using "false flag documents", a violation of the current restrictions imposed by the Honeybee Act of 1922, which is still the law of the land, and the expressly-stated will of Congress. If anyone got away with such a thing, they were fools, and they just happened to get away with it. Canada has actual INSPECTION of the imported bees required by law. So does the UK and the EU countries. Anyone with even half a brain inspects live animals. see http://www.ceaa-acee.gc.ca/0009/0004/0002/0003/3_e.htm for details on Canada's regs. So, if a Canadian sells me bees from NZ or Oz, the bees were first inspected, and then hived in his apiary. He acted as an "import quarantine yard" of sorts, at least for a time. Bees that come to the United States might be of NZ or Australian stock, or descendents of that stock, but they spend some time in Canada before being shipped, and Health Canada does a decent job of being picky. But what is done in Canada is not what the prospective exporters want to do in (or perhaps I should say "to") the US, and what APHIS appears to agree to when their arm is twisted hard by the current "gang in possession" pretending to be an "administration". They want >>NO<< controls, no inspections, no checks and balances. They want direct international shipments to the beekeeper. That's never been done before with live animals. A well-read person might mention Mexican cattle: In the case of Mexican cattle [a NAFTA deal], USDA inspectors (US Citizens, each and all) do the inspections in Mexico before the cattle are shipped, and Mexico's laws and regulations are identical to the US laws in the area of interest. But even then, inspections are done again at point of receipt. So this would be the first time that "Trust Me" was all the "Biosecurity" offered for the shipment of live animals. But hold on - what kind of bees do US beekeepers WANT and BUY from Canada? They want "Cold-hardy" or "Winter-Hardy" stock, bred in Canada, using fine Canadian craftsmanship. Not imported bees, and likely not even bred from bees imported from NZ or Oz. So we are talking about two different groups of bees. Regardless, "Trust Me" is not "Biosecurity". Its not even good business sense. Everyone is protected by checks and balances. Especially the fellow shipping the queens. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:46:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Small Hive Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All It appears that the SHB has appeared in Australia in two widely separated locations (Sydney and near Brisbane). I know that some American beekeepers have had to put up with this latest pest for about four years and that Coumaphos seems to give adequate control. Has a non chemical based IPM approach been worked out against the beetle? I am thinking especially of beekeepers who do not wish to use chemicals and who are showing good results against varroa without chemicals. I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can seriously disrupt the breeding cycle of the beetle by surrounding your hives with plastic or polythene sheeting to prevent the beetle burrowing into the ground to contine its reproduction. Possibly not for the commercial beekeeper but for the hobbyist. Any comments most welcome as I believe that I would be naive to assume that Ireland will not find itself on the pest's itinerary eventually. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Murray, Thanks for your usual insightful investigation on the poly boxes: it must have taken some efforts on your part. I, too, would like to see them utilized more here in the United States for the simple fact that if we use them, we may be able save lots of trees. (I have been using one for a swarm box: it is so light!) However, just like any topic in beekeeping, poly boxes seem to show pros and cons: Pros: 1. Poly boxes are, no doubt, excellent insulators year round. 2. They *seem* environmentally friendly so far. 3. In the long run, we will run out of trees. 4. We are already using plastic frames—with or without wax-coating. 5. They are much lighter, enhancing beekeepers’ conjugal affairs. 6. In the future, they can produce the kind we don’t have to paint. Cons: 1. I don’t want to pay $65 per hive for an icebox. 2. The kind I saw on the catalogue, we still have to paint them. 3. A self-respecting mouse can chew them up fast. 4. I am not sure about their long-term effect on honey and others. 5. They do not appear to be as durable as their wooden counterparts. 6. Not all of them are interchangeable. 7. Aesthetically, they don’t appear as appealing as the wooden boxes. 8. Depending on how one disposes them, they could litter our yards. >From the Republic of Oklahoma, Humdinger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:21:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I've often wondered if Diatomaceous Earth encircling the hive would solve the problem of SHB and ants in the hive. Any thoughts on this? Denise Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:02:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Bees hurt by cold In-Reply-To: <000c01c281b7$0be8ce40$491dfea9@dcampbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:57 AM 11/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Being new to this, should I be concerned or is this the normal die off for >this time of the year? It's pretty much normal. You will likely have more dead bees earlier in the winter than later due to death of older foragers, though there will always be dead bees in front of and in the bottom of the hive during cold weather. In warmer weather they will leave before they die or will be removed from the hive a fair distance so you don't see them much during warm weather. -TIm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <200211011944.gA1J6uRV027866@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Polystyrene would have to be rejected on any environmental grounds. 1) Trees grow back, oil does not. If you are concerned and use a lot of woodenware, plant a tree or two in your yard, pasture or contribute to a cause that does so in your name. Although Europe is running out of trees for many uses, some parts of the US now has more tree cover than when it was first "discovered" by Europeans (due to forest management policies, burn bans, etc, and due to replanting by mostly lumber and paper pulp companies). I don't think anyone will grow a dinosaur in your name to replenish oil reserves (I could be wrong, you can buy just about anything on the 'net these days, although I would caution buyer beware). 2) If having to burn equipment in the case of disease, wood is a relatively clean burning fuel, while polystyrene is not. Not to mention the large puddle of goo left at the end, you also have to provide some other fuel just to get a fire hot enought to melt the equipment, increasing costs. In some states, open burning of polystyrene is no doubt illegal and I doubt you would want to do so inside (while if you have used only environmentally friendly paints, you could break and burn woodenware even inside, if in a small enough quantity). 3) At the end of life, wooden ware will either decompose well if tossed out or may be easily burned (and if no lead paint, the ashes spread in pasture after removing nails). Polystyrene contributes to the landfill and essentially never breaks down. 4) The creation of polystyrene pollutes the air, while creating lumber cleans it. See http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blpolystyrene.htm or http://www.ejnet.org/plastics/polystyrene/production.html ( the latter admittedly a little biased ) versus benefits of growing trees: http://www.gov.edmonton.ab.ca/comm_services/parkland_services/forestry/benef its_from_growing_trees.html http://www.ott.doe.gov/rbep/pdfs/trees_as_biofuel.pdf http://www.agctr.lsu.edu/Communications/news/January2002/GetGrow/GIGColumn(T rees-Arbor%20Day)-01-11-02.htm http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Education/infotrees.htm http://www.armeniatree.org/benefits.htm Karen Oland > -----Original Message----- > From: Humdinger > > I, too, would like to see them utilized more here in the United States for > the simple fact that if we use them, we may be able save lots of trees. ... Pros: > 2. They *seem* environmentally friendly so far. > 3. In the long run, we will run out of trees. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 07:14:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tend to agree with Karen in this case. I think that burning wood is much more preferable to burning polystyrene. I think that beekeepers will tend to burn their polystyrene hives as they get broken or old and I think this will not be good for the environment in the short term. Using polystyrene in landfill is, I think ok, as it will decompose eventually nothing is ever destroyed it is only recycled. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 24-Oct-02 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 05:31:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Polystyrene v wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray, How do you sterilise polystyrene? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 10:33:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article , Karen Oland writes >Polystyrene would have to be rejected on any environmental grounds. I think that is an emotive knee-jerk reaction. Scandinavia is about as eco-friendly as you can get. They cite environmental grounds in their reasoning behind using them. So at least some places with immaculate credentials would see fit to disagree with you. >2) If having to burn equipment in the case of disease, wood is a relatively >clean burning fuel, while polystyrene is not. Not to mention the large >puddle of goo left at the end, What puddle of goo? We are talking expanded polystyrene here, not solid stuff. It burns away to nothing. And it does not need much in the way of fuel to get it going. A couple of handfuls of dry grass and twigs, or if you like, an egg cup full of petrol (gasoline). Not being a scientist I cannot tell you what goes into the air, but for sure there is no residue problem where you get rid of it. However, properly looked after, these are boxes for LIFE. You need never cut down another tree to replace them. If you break them they glue back together easily with a good wood glue and are then just about as strong as new. I have broken a few (mostly in one incident where I ran over a stack I was unaware was behind the truck) and have repaired them ALL with ease in a very short time. So in 5 years absolutely zero to burn and zero to landfill, and no weathering or ageing apparently taking place at all either. Wish I could say the same for my wooden ones, which cost more to begin with, and cost me many dollars a year to keep up the endless repair and replacement cycle. >(while if you have used only environmentally >friendly paints, you could break and burn woodenware even inside, if in a >small enough quantity). Up to a point yes, but you are left with more residue to dispose of in these cases than with polystyrene. Even if we are just talking about the nails alone. > >3) At the end of life, wooden ware will either decompose well if tossed out >or may be easily burned (and if no lead paint, the ashes spread in pasture >after removing nails). Polystyrene contributes to the landfill and >essentially never breaks down. Look after it and it need never get there. The pollination benefits due to the superior colony strength are not taken into account in your condemnation. The bees seem very happy in the boxes and they suffer from so many fewer problems. Perhaps you think it eco-friendly to condemn 4 times more colonies to winter death? Getting upset at polystyrene beehives, when they have such market benefits, is not, in my opinion, a balanced response. I do not pretend they are perfect, but they are the best I have found so far and I feel the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. If you are in an area where the climate is very hard on woodenware you can be replacing boxes at an alarming rate. In polystyrene this is markedly reduced. Even the fuel expended in getting your woodenware felled, shipped, sawn, cut to size, and delivered to you, is largely of petrochemical origin. There are ecological negatives on both sides. Also, have you seen how degraded land is after a crop of trees has been felled? Only suitable for more trees without vast efforts to clear the roots and stumps. To get the sizes needed for deep boxes you need OLD trees too. In some parts of the area I go to in summer with the bees they are still trying to repair damage done by tree felling 60 years ago, and the landscape is still seriously degraded. The deep rutting from extraction work, the mineral deficient soils left behind, and their acidification as the old wood breaks down. The loss of species smothered by the dense canopy of conifers (its a desert in there) takes a long time to repair itself, if it ever does. Not topics the timber industry care to dwell on. This is getting seriously off topic, (I did not even post it on Bee-L) when the only subject was thickness of hive walls and bee health, coupled to a question about polystyrene from Scandinavia. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:17:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Polystyrene v wood hives In-Reply-To: <17c.113e65e3.2af5039f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <17c.113e65e3.2af5039f@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >Murray, > >How do you sterilise polystyrene? > >Chris This is the standard 'killer question' posed by those who query its use, at least those who are fans of the gas torch. Thus far I have not had to do so, so I suppose the honest answer is that I have not yet decided exactly what to do. There are many options, but obviously flame treatment, other than a cursory one, is not one of the options. All depends on what you are sterilising for. Nosema and dysentry treatment where you would often flame wooden parts are just as well treated by scraping and exposure to fumes of acetic acid along with the combs. For AFB I would generally destroy anyway. Never having had a case in all our years tends to make me feel this is a small cost risk, even if we were able to save wood but destroy polystyrene. I should think it quite possible to scrape the interior clean and then give it a coat of paint to seal in any problems. Or perhaps the scrub with lye (caustic soda) method. Not insurmountable anyhow. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 09:18:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Polystyrene v wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I had investigated producing polystryrene hives in North America about a dozen years ago and decided that despite the obvious advantages the project would not be viable. I wonder if the same attitudes would be expressed for such items as Ross Rounds vs basswood sections, plastic foundation and frames vs beeswax and wood, plastic honey containers vs glass jars? Dennis Murrell Wondering if maybe not what kind but how much is the question ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:59:08 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What puddle of goo? We are talking expanded polystyrene here, not solid > stuff. I have had my polystyrene hives for more than forty years now. They are still all fit and useable. All I have done to them is to assemble and give a one time dush of green water based paint mainly because I don't like white, (the hives is to light spotted for unwelcome people). I have broken one of the boxes because I dropped a box with 30kg of honey on the ground, but this I easily repaired with expansion wood glue. That is all except for the chicken ones they escaped the chicken yard, getting to much interest in a box a little damaged in the corner, and started to pick into the open wound. So there is no need to get ried of the boxes because of age. About sterilization of the box I use soda lye, and this also removes old wax and anything of organic material. What I like is the weight. a Langstroth box with wooden frames an foundation is 4.5 kg and it still possible for me even I am close to sixty to move two empty hives each of two boxes at one time by taking one in each hand. I can also alone lift and move one hive with bees and two brood boxes by hand. About migration there is no problems making a stack of 3 or four pallets, and by using screened button boards there is no need for more ventilation at all. Even stationary in the winter. I have my bees in four Langstroth hives on one square metre pallet. All with their entrance in different directions. The Norway people even is no more producing wooden boxes for sale. They have changed over to polystyrene hives. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software new version of software on its way with a lot of new facilities and extreme efficient filter and search facilities. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 07:18:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Polystyrene would have to be rejected on any environmental grounds. I notice that the discussion has shifted here from the beekeeping benefits to environmental concerns. In many environmental issues, there is a a large measure of speculation and necessary injection of personal biases. There are many, many imponderables, but that does not stop people from pondering, and reaching conclusions and presenting those conclusions as fact. Reasonable people regarding the same sparse facts often reach opposing conclusions. Others suspend judgement where so many conflicting points are present. Without attempting to rebut the points made -- they are good ones -- I'll try to balance the issue a bit here and try also to get back to beekeeping considerations. I think we need to be aware of the possible environmental impacts, but I am not sure we can reach valid conclusions on that front. Polystyrene is a legal substance, and even if it is widely abused in packaging, in beekeeping use the benefits may outweight the darker aspects. Substituting polystyrene for wood may reduce other polluting practices associated with or arising out of using wood for supers. I just don't know, but can speculate that the process of cutting wood reduces the beneficial effect of forest and that the transporting, processing and preserving of wood present negative environmental loads as well. The additional load of transporting the relatively heavy weight of wood boxes back and forth to the honey house many times over the life of the wood, in terms of additional fuel consumed and the byproducts of that combustion, are not negligible. I would assume that many times the mass of polystyrene supers would be consumed in fossil fuel. Possibly using polystyrene boxes might actually reduce overall petroleum stock consumption quite massively compared to the small amount of petroleum used in manufacturing them. While we are discussing the disposal aspects od bee equipment, I should say that I like Pierco frames much better than wood and wax, but I really have no idea of how to get rid of them after they have done their time, except to bury them somewhere, or burn them. I agree that burning makes produces many unattractive and toxic products. Interestingly enough burning wool -- a 'natural' product -- has the same problem. For that matter, wood, especially after use in construction or being painted, is not as innocent as many of us assume. In many cases, wood is not permitted to be burnt, but is buried for disposal. Assuming that the environmental aspect is being managed somehow, expanded polystrene boxes do offer reduced weight and also, in areas where wrapping is practised, reduce or eliminate the need for wrapping materials. The purchase and handing of wrapping materials is costly and labour intensive -- and for those who are still adament that styro boxes are a threat to the environment -- wraps utilize tars and papers and plastics that are in the same class as polystyrene for impact on the environment and workers. Moreover, polystyrene, unlike wood -- requires only one quality coat of paint once in its life, not the ous oil-based paints that wood needs periodically to stand up. You see, expanded polystyrene does decompose. If it is left unprotected fromm the sun, the surface turns to powder and in a few years it disintegrates and turns to dust. Anyhow, back to the beekeeping... allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: >Polystyrene would have to be rejected on any environmental grounds. > >1) Trees grow back, oil does not. > I agree with all else that Karen said and will stick with wood - but it may be that oil does "grow back". There was a hypothesis many years ago that oil is in continuous formation and is not static. What was once thought of as oil seeping into old wells may be not old oil seeping in but new oil created from all the methane that exists in the earths mantel. The hypothesis now has many adherents. Oil reserves are now estimated at between 150-250 years, compared to giving out in 1990, which is what was generally believed many years ago. In addition, since it is the methane that is being cracked, it is not dinos that are the source of the oil but the methane that has been in the earth since its creation. Interesting that known methane deposits in the ocean, if and when we decide to "mine" them, are estimated at a 10,000 year supply. and that is just what we know about. So called "fossil" fuels will be around for a long time. Now if I can only get my VW to last that long, I'll be set. Some of the questions I answered "correctly" on science tests are being proven to be absolutely wrong. But they are still better off than some so-called scientific disciplines. In my economic tests, they are now all wrong.(Check those who have won Nobel prizes in economics and the state of their theories now.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:51:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control In-Reply-To: <1a3.b1e849d.2af44a75@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Denise wrote: I've often wondered if Diatomaceous Earth encircling the hive would solve the problem of SHB and ants in the hive. Any thoughts reply: Probably not for ants. For small hive beetle do not forget under the hives also and thoroughly mixed into the soil and tapped down. Also I would use solid bottom boards and small cell foundation with culling of drone cells to 10% on any one frame. Also no locations under trees, but open sun.If not using diatomaceous earth, you could use cement pad under hives or solid formation of pavers to break up the migration into the soil as much as possible. Sincerely, Dee (thinking what I'd do it it were here) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:48:13 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Carnica mellifera Crosses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray wrote> The best bees in terms of results in our area are carnica/mellifera > crosses, Murray To give you some relief from Polystyrene hives, I was wondering if you have had the problems of aggression commented on by Ruttner when he crossed Amm with Am carnica? He seemed to believe that they were virtually impossible to keep anywhere the public has access. Also do you have a reliable source for Carnica Queens? regards Phil Moore Shropshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:43:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd guess the Diatomaceous Earth would work by scratching the exoskeleton and causing dehydration. However, I'd have doubts of its effectiveness after a rain of strong wind unless it was tilled into the soil. As far as the beetle's migration into the soil, I suspect that the soil must be within a pretty narrow pH range. Altering the pH of the soil under and around the hive might break their life cycle. Soda Ash is cheap. A mix of Soda Ash and Diatomaceous Earth tilled into the soil under and around the hive might just do the trick. Any thoughts? West Texas Mark > Denise wrote: > I've often wondered if Diatomaceous Earth encircling the > hive would solve the problem of SHB and ants in the hive. > Any thoughts ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:38:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is no evidence in Europe to suggest they are any less valuable > than wooden on the second hand market. In some parts, such as > Scandinavia, this market has reversed, and polystyrene hives are now the > thing, and wooden are hard to shift. One thing about polystyrene is that it does not breathe at all. I wonder what kind of entrance4 reducers you use and if you use top ventilation and/or flight holes. I know that in Europe, in some regions where polystyrene hives are common, that beekeepers don't use top entrances. What are your thoughts? Maybe Mats and P-O and others might comment too. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 18:18:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I maybe mentioning something already brought up but are polystyrene hive bodies stackable? I've been told that keeping bees in this type of hivebody makes it difficult to move them for polination because the polystyrene hive bodies slide on each other and do not stick together very well. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Fiala Subject: Re: Bees Hurt By Cold? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the Virginia State Beekeepers Meeting today, Dr. Rick Fell, while speaking on fall and winter management techniques, recommended an upper entrance (along with some other actions). When I discussed the technique with him afterward, he told me that he thought it was even better just to pull the top hive body back slightly to open a gap, as is done for summer ventilation by some of us. This would provide the entrance between the brood boxes. Alan Fiala in Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:50:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Jill D. Wright" Subject: propolis This year we made special effort to salvage as much propolis as possible. What do we do with it now? My family doesn't mind using it straight from the hive to fight off infections, but I don't believe the health food store would buy it from me without some processing. Is it wiser to sell it raw to a company that does all the work or can hobbyist render it at home? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:13:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control In-Reply-To: <004901c282b8$f414ea80$4f80c641@me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii West TExas Mark wrote: Soda Ash is cheap. A mix of Soda Ash and Diatomaceous Earth tilled into the soil under and around the hive might just do the trick. Any thoughts? Reply: Would this be to caustic for the bees the Soda Ash? Of course if mixed into soil then they would not be bathing in it though, just the beetles. This would relate to lime, but not as caustic. Could lime be used then? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:19:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Carnica mellifera Crosses In-Reply-To: <005801c29b1e$108d1200$3cd286d9@phil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <005801c29b1e$108d1200$3cd286d9@phil>, Phil Moore writes >I was wondering if you have >had the problems of aggression commented on by Ruttner when he crossed Amm >with Am carnica? He seemed to believe that they were virtually impossible to >keep anywhere the public has access. Short answer is NO. However, CERTAIN types of carnica seem to throw the problem up a bit more often. Using Sue Cobeys New World carniolans we never had a problem (although our main experience with that is back in the 1980's due to UK import bans after varroa was found in California). Absolutely never. Brilliant bees. Using carnica from Europe is a bit less reliable, although to be fair I am talking about bees from the native range of carnica (allegedly pure) where there could be fairly marked variation anyway, and cannot comment on the qualities of, for example, the highly bred German versions. I would expect them to show few problems and may indeed experiment this year coming. To get this in proportion, there will have been no more than four or five seriously aggressive colonies, over the last few years, out of several hundred a year. Not all of these will have been crosses either, some will have been relatively pure A.m.m.. The only current legal source for carniolan queens in the UK is Kona in Hawaii, but these are open mated and the progeny tend toward yellow due to the prevalence of Italian drones. Select only dark virgins from these and you go some way towards getting a good strain, and of course the drones of the original mother are all of the proper strain. > Also do you have a reliable source for >Carnica Queens? Subject to the above, you only have Kona, and to bring them from there you will need an import license from DEFRA. However you CAN bring in queens from EU countries, subject to health certification, and there are a wide range of good breeders out there (but usually quite expensive). > >regards Phil Moore >Shropshire UK -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:40:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <001a01c282c8$e2adb460$70ae73d1@pii266> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001a01c282c8$e2adb460$70ae73d1@pii266>, Allen Dick writes >One thing about polystyrene is that it does not breathe at all. I am led to believe (from a Danish friend) that this is not actually true, and that moisture permeates out through the walls, and in particular the roof. I have probably finished that idea off by applying exterior gloss paint to all external surfaces. However, it seems to have made no difference to the bees. Moisture certainly can get into the material. I wondered why our polystyrene feeders were turning black on the outside and clumps of bees and wasps were hanging about on them. I asked the maker and was asked in return if I had painted them. My answer was, at that time, 'No, I had not but would clean them, stack them up, and spray them next spring.' I was then told, the its not the outside you should be painting, its the inside, as the syrup migrates into, and right through the polystyrene between the beads. If I had not painted them before I had put feeding in them there was little point doing it later as this would just be over the top of syrup in the material and that it would not stick long term. The second batch we painted inside and out and no problems whatsoever, plus they will be a pound or two lighter today than the unpainted ones. Roofs taken from store in spring are surprisingly noticeably lighter than those on the hives, but as summer comes on they are about the same. I would guess that this is due to water being absorbed into the fabric of the polystyrene in winter, and coming back out again once the sun heats up the hives during the active season. > I wonder >what kind of entrance4 reducers you use and if you use top ventilation >and/or flight holes. No entrance reducers (all are on 3/8" anyway), and no upper entrances. Plentiful ventilation comes through the mesh floor. It remains relatively warm inside the hive, and condensation forms against the hand hold areas, runs down, and exits the bottom board through the mesh. I am not in Canada of course! My minimum temperature for sustained spells is not greatly below zero, a good bit warmer than you, but central Norway and Sweden would be comparable, and they seem to do it just the same as I do out there. > What are your thoughts? Maybe Mats and P-O and others might comment too. Anthony Morgan would have a good input to make too. The bees in them are always strong, clean, and not apparently suffering from the moisture sometimes found in our ( all unwrapped) wooden hives. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:07:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >From: Allen Dick > > > >One thing about polystyrene is that it does not breathe at all. I wonder >what kind of entrance reducers you use and if you use top ventilation >and/or flight holes. > >I know that in Europe, in some regions where polystyrene hives are common, >that beekeepers don't use top entrances. > Now Allen, you are not going to start that old discussion again are you? We had it about every winter since I joined the list some 8 years ago..... ;-) I think we just agreed to disagree and leave it by that. I know of no one that uses upper entrance here, and it seems compulsory on your side of the pond. We don't use entrance reducers either. When bees consume sugars they produce CO2 and water. That has to be transported out of the hive some way. CO2 is heavier than air and thus sinks to the bottom of the hive (if the hive is properly sealed up at the top so no draught is causing unwanted movement of air inside). On Styro hives we normally use a mesh bottom (about half the area of the bottom board) open all year. And leave the entrance open, it's kept 8 mm high to keep mice out. This works perfectly well here and uses the bees normal instinct to seal up everything above them with propolis for winter. On the other side, you make a small hole at the top and reduce the entrance to cause a upward draught through the hive and lead CO2 and water out trough the top hole instead. Same thing done different ways. Difference can be feed consumption during winter. From what I read on the List you leave up to 35 kg of feed in the hives. That would equal around 28 kg dry weight of sugar. Usually we leave 12 to 20 kg dry weight for winter. The difference is not due to climate, when the same goes for the far north of Sweden with low temps and a very long winter. It is probably due to the extra feed needed to keep cluster warm in the constant draught of cold air. There are other advantages with Styro hives. Murray and others has pointed at most, but there is one I like to comment on. That's the perfect fit between the parts. On wooden hive parts you always get buildup of propolis when wood is a living material and swell and bend after the moisture content. Bees fill up those cracks and a layer is constantly getting thicker causing changes in size. Not so on plastic. It keeps clean when bees don't have any hole or crack to seal. It's not changing in size due to moisture swelling, and this means in practical work much less problem with burr comb between boxes and makes everything faster and easier when working bees in the field. No commercial beekeeper would consider buying wooden boxes here anymore. Something totally different; I have been fiddling with the Varrox evaporator and oxalic acid treatment lately. Got a few pix on the subject, and hopefully some data on efficiency if the winter isn't coming too fast and stop me. I remember you asking about this earlier. http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm This page will change as I get more data to post there, hopefully in a couple of weeks. I'm comparing vaporizing with trickling of sugar-oxalic solution on 24 hives. Hope to be able to get Apistan strips in to check remaining mites before winter. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:52:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and Friends, You mentioned the use of polyethylene sheeting around the hives to control the beetle. It really sounds like a good idea, however, I have been watching the beetle destroy my hives for 3 years now. My hives are all screened bottomed and sit on concrete blocks. I have seen the larvae pupate in the hive dust accumulated on top of the concrete blocks I used for hive stands. The larvae were free to crawl off the edge of the blocks and pupate in the soil, however, they opted to just roll up in the hive debris and pupated just fine, right under the hives. They have hatched out in significant numbers, in this medium. I have not tried the plastic, because I feel the larvae will just roll up in the dust and pupate anyway. I have opted to build new hive stands with 6" deep plastic sliding trays underneath. I have found the larvae will go through the 8 mesh screen and accumulate in masse in the trays and they don't appear to be able to climb the sides of the trays. I put a little sawdust in the bottom of the trays and then I can remove the trays weekly to eliminate the larvae. These little devils are a real challenge. I have given up on Cumophos, because it just plain scares me and the beetles always come back, so now I am going to try different methods of larval and adult trapping. Bob Bassett rj.bassett@verizon.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder that all beekeeping is local, and it is best to know the weather in the location that uses different equipment. Many parts of Europe are located much further north than much of the US, but enjoy fairly mild winters and have temps that are closer to Maryland than upper NY state or the Dakotas. Many parts of Sweden are warmer than parts of Maine, including one city close the the Arctic circle, all because they are intelligent and have their larger cities close to water and the warm Gulf Stream. Even in North America you can have exceptional differences - Maine vs Washington State. Upper NY State is cold, often colder than southern Maine, so I buy a lot of trees from that area knowing that if they survive there I have a chance here. So I would trust Lloyds observations on wintering more than those from others, since our climates are close in temperature and other environmental factors. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:58:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Global villagers, One of the reasons I failed to mention about the breathability of the poly boxes was that moisture, depending on the season of the year, could be good: spring [brood-rearing] and summer [heat]. Although excessive moisture, aggravated with fungal growth inside the hive, will kill the bees, a tolerable level of moisture, even in winter, could be a life-saver if, this is a big *if*, if you have to emergency feed the bees with sugar, which necessitates dilution: in an *ideal* situation with warm spells, the girls do not have to go gossiping around the village well for water. Thus, give and take pros and cons, the issue of breathability seems to be not as significant as, say, sterilization of the inside, another point I goofed. On a different note, I find it ironic that we produce organic [natural] honey, using plastic frames and poly boxes, implements devised by clever humans, not by nature. Now, don’t open that Pandora’s Box, though (What is/how far is *nature*?)! Taking a breather while grading papers, (It appears winter is coming ahead of its schedule this year) Humdinger ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:28:01 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i found this research. combining this with a screened bottom board to aid in ventilation could provide some protection and prevention. Controlling small hive beetles (Aethina tumida Murray) in honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies using a modified hive entrance. Ellis, James D., Jr., Keith S. Delaplane, H. Randall Hepburn, & Patti J. Elzen. 2002. American Bee Journal 142(4): 288-290 ABSTRACT This study was designed to test whether colony invasion by adult small hive beetles can be reduced by replacing the regular entrance of a hive with a ¾-inch (2-cm) PVC pipe located 3-4 inches (7.6-10.2 cm) above the bottom board. Colonies with pipe entrances had significantly fewer adult beetles (46.9 beetles / colony) than open colonies (107.7 beetles / colony). Pipe entrances did not directly affect the amount of sealed brood in a colony nor the temperature inside colonies. However, brood significantly affected temperature inside colonies and there was a tendency for reduced brood in colonies with pipes; temperature increased as the amount of brood in a colony increased. Brood did not affect the number of adult beetles present in colonies. This experiment shows that modifying a colony's entrance may help control small hive beetles, but more work is needed to offset unwanted effects of reduced colony entrances. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:41:26 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: How To Stop The NEXT Varroa Mite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A team of us in the USA need 30 seconds of your time to help protect bees worldwide from the "next varroa", whatever that might turn out to be. Please send an e-mail before Nov 18, to: regulations@aphis.usda.gov with the subject: Docket No. 98-109-1 Please ask them to: Extend the comment period to Jan 31, 2003 Please include your name and snail-mail postal address (they require it). That's it. You need do nothing more. You need not even read further, unless you are either interested, or not convinced that this is worth 30 seconds of your time. If you were really nice, you could forward this to your local beekeeper group's mailing list to insure that beekeepers are alerted to a request for comments. We all know how much beekeepers like to express their opinions, don't we? :) Anyone can do this. One need NOT be a US citizen to express an opinion on this issue to the US Government and be recognized as a valid contributor to the process. (Of course, US citizens are certainly encouraged to send a message to their own government.) Why take 30 seconds of your day to do this? Because this may be the first you have even heard of this, and you need to understand this, and be able to express your opinion. A very serious precedent is being set that "lowers the bar" on pest and disease control in "World Trade", and thus will have impact on other countries, not just the USA. (It also certainly has impact on more than bees.) Regardless of your view of "World Trade" as a "good" or "bad" idea, you very likely will agree that no one needs more diseases or pests killing their beehives. What's happening? Bees from overseas are being considered as "imports" by the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), and they are being arm-twisted into agreeing that not even random port-of-entry inspections, tests, and record-keeping are required for such shipments. But this is NOT about one country exporting bees to another!!!! And this is NOT about "trade", "protectionism", or anything else. This is ONLY about disease control. This is about the right of a country to take reasonable steps to verify that bees (and other live animals) are free of diseases and pests before they get "into the ecosystem". Precedents like this one could result in YOUR country being forced into this approach as the "accepted norm", and being prevented from taking reasonable steps to protect the spread of pests and diseases. That's the way "World Trade" seems to work - the lowest standards often become the worldwide standards. You may not care about this issue at all, but we still need your help so that SOMEONE has the time to slog through the pile of paperwork and explain it to those who do care. In August, the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) announced a plan to allow imports of honey bees in the form of queens and packages. But there are NO inspections in the plan! No testing or monitoring, either. Not even "statistical samples" taken. Nothing. The deadline for "comments" is Nov 18th, 2002 unless extended by public demand. An extension is needed because it became clear in a public hearing that: a) Only a handful of beekeepers are aware of this b) Those that are aware of it do not yet understand it fully c) Even APHIS clearly does not understand the implications d) Some of the citations and references they offer as "science" are not even published papers, and have not been reviewed by anyone outside APHIS. ...and some time is needed to gather some facts, and educate APHIS about just how many diseases and pests plague us now, and how many more could come here unless inspections are at least an optional part of the process. This is a very strange proposal from an agency with "Inspection" in its name. Don't blame APHIS - they are clearly being pressured by the current "administration". The biggest problem is that the proposals are complex, and there appear to be some assumptions made by APHIS that are incorrect, and some conclusions not supported by the current consensus we call "science". The proposed "rule making" is here, in both plain text, and pdf. (And no, you can't use google or altavista to translate it into English, this IS what passes for English in US government documents.) http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed.pdf The "pest risk assessment" documents in their current form can be found here, if you like slogging through pages of gibberish. (Warning - the server is very slow at times. It may take several tries to get the documents.) http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/pra/honeybees/ Thanks! jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:16:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Tom wrote; > It appears that the SHB has appeared in Australia in two widely separated locations (Sydney and near Brisbane). Never ceases to amaze me the spread of these beekeeping problems. In my opinion SHB has been introduced. > I know that some American beekeepers have had to put up with this >latest pest for about four years and that Coumaphos seems to give >adequate control Coumaphos never was the answer for SHb. Beekeepers needing a replacement for Apistan used SHb Coumaphos usage to get the section 18. Coumaphos will help control those SHb which do live in the hive with the bees and some SHb do. . > Has a non chemical based IPM approach been worked out against the beetle? One has to understand the ways of the small hive beetle. All methods talked about in this discussion are useless *once* the shb is established in your area. The methods suggested can help slow the establishment of the SHb when it first arrives in a area for maybe the first season. Although SHb can be found in most hives in a area infested by the SHB the real damage comes when the hive (for whatever reason) cannot defend itself and thousands of *adult* SHb invade the hive and lay eggs. Up to 8,000 adults have been counted in a single hive in Florida. The eggs hatch and the SHB larva destroy all frames. Plastc sheeting ,ground drench are all methods after the damage has been done but will slow the infestation at first. For the most part SHB *does not* live in the hive but attacks the weak hive as the wax moth does . > I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can seriously disrupt the breeding cycle of the beetle by surrounding your hives with plastic or > polythene sheeting to prevent the beetle burrowing into the ground to > contine its reproduction. My friends in Florida report that although SHb can be found in almost all hives the large numbers which actually lay the eggs which hatch quickly and slime the hive (which can take place between ten day inspections) come from the woods around the hives rather than a small infestation which slowly grows larger. Although the adult laying eggs is the problem with both the wax moth and SHB . Usually only a small number of adult wax moths lay a huge number of eggs. With SHB a huge number of adults lay a huge number of eggs. Strong hives and reduced entrances are two important methods of control. Drought for some unknown reason reduces populations of SHb. Possibly the SHb will never be a serious problem in areas of the southwest. I see pheromone traps which disrupt the male SHb (or trap males) as an important control but no current research in that area is going on to my knowledge. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:56:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received the following recipe from Poland. I plan to try it this winter. 1. Place 50 grams of finely ground propolis in a 0.5 litre glass jar. Add 0.25 litre of rectified spirit (water solution of 96%+ ethyl alcohol) and close tightly. 2. Keep the solution in a dark, warm place for 10-14 days. Shake often to help dissolve the propolis. 3. Pour off the dissolved propolis, minus the sediment, into dark glass bottles and cap tightly. Filtering out excessive sediment. Store in a dark place. Here are a few applications for adults. One should consult a doctor before treating oneself - particularly if planning to take the propolis solution internally.) - Several times a day, rinse the throat with and drink 40 drops of propolis solution in a glass of warm water to treat subborn cold, broncitis, pneumonia. - Drink 50 drops of propolis solution in a glass of warm water for stomach aches. - Drink 40 drops of propolis solution in a glass of warm milk on an empty stomach for ulcers of the stomach and of the intestines. - Drink 30 drops of propolis solution in a glass of warm water once a day for high blood pressure until it's back in the normal range. - Smear propolis solution on burns and difficult wounds on the body to expedite the healing process. - Athlete's foot and dandruff, fungus infections, may also be treated with propolis solution. So much for recommendations. One should always take care about the source of the propolis. Roger Morse, in A Year in the Beeyard, cautions that 'bees have been known to collect road tar, wet paint, and caulking compound in areas where natural propolis is unavailable.' This is probably an exception and certainly not the case in my area - the propolis resin I collected has a sweet, botanical fragrance. Waldemar Long Island, NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill D. Wright" > This year we made special effort to salvage as much propolis as possible. > What do we do with it now? My family doesn't mind using it straight from > the hive to fight off infections, but I don't believe the health food store > would buy it from me without some processing. Is it wiser to sell it raw > to a company that does all the work or can hobbyist render it at home? --------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:21:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it to be correct that bees do better in polystyrene hives than wooden hives. I don't think ecological threat posed but the material is very great especially since I assume that the numbers of poly hives is relatively small. However it is another contaminant in the works and it would seem wise to avoid any risks. I have played around with polystyrene in the past and it does produce a lot of nasty fumes when burned. I also produces a lot of unsightly litter and is slow to decompose. However the litter does not seem to be toxic so it is just an offence to the senses. I think wooden hives are the best option for the amateur beekeeper and I think that professional beekeeping will dwindle in the future. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 24-Oct-02 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:38:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Melitagora@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Ventilation In-Reply-To: <200211040500.gA44vHE3001016@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You can check if your honeybees are different, and what they "think" about ventilation. Make a hive which have ALL sides made from mesh (screen), also bottom and top. Put inside enough bees (maybe from two - three colonies), long enough before the winter. See how they will propolise all hive. Leave them for winter if you like. Our bees (A. m. macedonica) propolised everything but bottom (no holes on the top). Regards, ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:30:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <001101c283d2$fe8e3aa0$2984fc3e@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001101c283d2$fe8e3aa0$2984fc3e@default>, Harry Goudie writes >I believe it to be correct that bees do better in polystyrene hives than >wooden hives. I have proved it to my own satisfaction beyond a shadow of doubt, from an initial position of being seriously sceptical, even negative. I erected all the straw men in my mind that I am hearing here, only to have them demolished by the bees level of prosperity in the boxes, and the surprising durability of an apparently soft and fragile hive. I got a surprise. If it is good enough to get my cheque book open for other than a trial lot then it must be OK in my own situation. (Nothing more annoying than someone who has 'seen the light', is there?) > I don't think ecological threat posed but the material is >very great especially since I assume that the numbers of poly hives is >relatively small. It will already be approaching 5% of the hives in Scotland, and growing rapidly. I know of plans to set up a very large number of colonies imminently in a new venture, and a mould for BS sizes (National and Smith) is under design and build at this time for a launch next spring. Once these are available I alone will be converting over 1000 more. Prices are now sensible, less than wood in fact, and this will be the growth sector in bees in Scotland over the next couple of decades. The new one piece designs are really strong and tough, at least as strong as wooden ones and will literally last forever if looked after. A lifespan of 100 years or more is quite feasible (if one can presume to see that far ahead). Due to the productivity increase and reduced bee losses, the poly guys will have a marked advantage in viability and will expand at the expense of those who do not make the transition. > However it is another contaminant in the works and it >would seem wise to avoid any risks. I have played around with polystyrene >in the past and it does produce a lot of nasty fumes when burned. I also >produces a lot of unsightly litter and is slow to decompose. However the >litter does not seem to be toxic so it is just an offence to the senses. Read Jorns post. They do not need to become this litter or contaminant, and in any case, relative to the big picture this is absolutely nothing. > I >think wooden hives are the best option for the amateur beekeeper and I think >that professional beekeeping will dwindle in the future. I beg to differ. On both points. Bees do not know whether they are professional or amateur run, thus similar criteria apply to both sectors. If the bees do best in polys it matters not one jot if it is an amateur or a pro who is running them. Perhaps you are a traditionalist at heart and HOPE that wooden hives are never superceded, and in truth they will never be entirely replaced, but the proportion of polystyrene hives is set to rise sharply and I expect it to at least reach parity some time in the future. From a selfish point of view, the fewer people who convert the better, as it locks people into the lower productivity levels and keeps the price I get for my crop nice and high. Professional beekeeping will continue, perhaps with wrinkles on the pattern, but if the world requires honey on the shop shelves, there will be professional beekeepers out there somewhere to provide it. The market will float up and down, and high unit cost beekeepers may suffer from time to time, but on a global basis there will be something approaching balance. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 10:54:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Murray McGregor > > Moisture certainly can get into the material. I wondered why our > polystyrene feeders were turning black on the outside and clumps of bees > and wasps were hanging about on them.... > .... as the syrup migrates into, and right through the polystyrene > between the beads. This need not happen. I haven't painted any of my hive parts inside. It's true I got a few feeders that behave like you say, but they have less density that the others. This mostly happens when I have given a one box split too much feed in autumn and they can't find room for it all so it's left in feeder over winter. Apparently the manufacturing process is quite difficult to control when it comes to density. Almost every batch that's made is a little different and density varies 10-20% between batches and can also vary in the same batch. Producers say +-10%, they can't get closer. 80 grams is in my opinion too soft, so you would have to aim at near 100 g/l to make sure it never gets below 90. Feeders are more difficult to make and often have less density at the top. You need min 90 g/liter. I know some producers try to cut cost by making them softer. > > Roofs taken from store in spring are surprisingly noticeably lighter > than those on the hives, but as summer comes on they are about the same. I haven't experienced it with a roof, but with bottoms if they are soft. Water stays at the bottom all winter and when freezing it expand and break up the material. The small cracks are getting wider and more water leaks in and freeze-expand until the whole bottom board is like a sponge. Doesn't really matter, but when going to estimate feed amount in spring by lifting hives you make errors and don't realize the hive might be low on feed. Don't know what hive you have, but there seem to be some difference between makes. Bottoms from Finland that Juhani Vaara makes have sloping surfaces that makes water run off and probably will last longer in a climate like mine. Time will show. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burning of polystyrene has been addressed as a way to get rid of it. I took a plastics course years and years ago and one of the many ways to id plastics is how they burn. From the internet- a site that does not like PS- Quote- When polystyrene was burned at temperatures of 800-900 Celsius (the typical range of a modern incinerator), the products of combustion consisted of "a complex mixture of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) from alkyl benzenes to benzo[ghi]perylene. Over 90 different compounds were identified in combustion effluents from polystyrene."[1] With the addition of chlorine donors as simple as table salt, it is inevitable that combustion of polystyrene in municipal solid waste incinerators will contribute to the formation of highly chlorinated polycyclic compounds like dioxins , furans, hexachlorobenzene, and chlorophenols. It is this family of compounds that are some of the most biologically active toxins known to humans.[2] Another problem with incineration is that much of the foam will have been tinted, and some types of ink release the heavy metals cadmium and lead, both of which are toxic. Unquote The industry says it is OK. But they do recognize the impact on landfills and are more toward recycling or incineration, since landfills cover the plastics and prevent decomposition (which is why you paint the hive body). Truth is, there is not that much PS involved in hive bodies world wide. Their combined impact on the environment is almost unmeasurable compared to one days output from fast food outlets in New York City. It would be better to try and recycle PS hive bodies rather than use either a landfill or incineration. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:20:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Package bee sellers in the U.S. have spread mites, SHb and many other beekeeping problems far greater than the migratory beekeeper ever did (in my opinion) but blaming the migratory beekeeper kept the heat off the package seller . The package bee seller knew the migratory beekeeper could care less about public opinion and would not rebuke the blame. This year the problem of packages infested with varroa has been so bad that many package buyers had their hives so infested by fall the hives were over threshold. Every SHb find in Missouri has been traced back to packages from a package seller. Our U.S. queen and package sellers can easily supply the U.S. needs. Why import future problems? Let us keep our borders shut and hope the package sellers( NOT ALL ) in the U.S. which are shipping packages around the country with high loads of varroa and shb read my post and *hear* from each beekeeper which received SHb or a package with a high varroa load. A package from a hive which has a low varroa load should not reach threshold in August! Many commercial beekeepers have never bought a mite strip. They simply bought packages and depopulated the hives in the fall. Lately they are finding their hives over threshold before the end of the season. The reason is the packages are heavily varroa infested when installed. If we cannot keep packages coming out of the south with SHB and high varroa loads how are we to keep new beekeeping problems from coming in from outside our borders. Especially when those breeders are on the honor system? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:52:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Murray wrote: From a selfish point of view, the fewer people who convert the better, as it locks people into the lower productivity levels and keeps the price I get for my crop nice and high. I had to chuckle at the above. Maybe Murray has bought stock in the polystyrene hive industry? The simple truth is bees hoard nectar in a honey flow and are only limited by colony size and storage space. I would have to run a few tests myself or see the results of tests run before I would buy into the idea that bees in polystyrene hives out produce bees in wood hives by any significant amount with all other factors being equal year after year. I will keep a open mind and await further information. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:14:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Denise wrote: " I've often wondered if Diatomaceous Earth encircling the hive would solve the problem of SHB and ants in the hive. Any thoughts" In tests done a few years ago in Florida SHB pupated and developed successfully in pure diatomacetous earth. They are amazingly tough beetles and the DE didn't seem to bother them at all. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:34:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives (Canadian Supplier for Varrox evaporator) In-Reply-To: <3DC5036B.7010200@algonet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- Behalf Of P-O Gustafsson Something totally different; I have been fiddling with the Varrox evaporator and oxalic acid treatment lately. Got a few pix on the subject, and hopefully some data on efficiency if the winter isn't coming too fast and stop me. I remember you asking about this earlier. http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm Reply: (for Canadian beeks) Thanks for your excellent pictures - very helpfull. Looking forward to more details, especially on other methods of applying the oxalic acid. I contacted the Swiss company for Canadian Supplier. Is as follows: Honeydew Apiaries Daniel Ficza 6718 Rte 19 Canoe Cove RR# 2, Cornwall Prince Edward Island, Canada COA IHO Tel./Fax 902/675-3690 I phoned them. They have the vaporizer in stock at $145.00 (Canadian $) Seems pricey for this cheapskate. I intend to jerry rig my own vaporizers. I have 3" (7.5 cm)height clearance in the drawer under my screen bottoms so it shouldn't be too hard ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have been following the discussion of polystyrene vs wood hives with great interest, reading with extra scrtiny the posts from those who have tried them, dismissing those from authors who have not, and wishing the environmental concerns would migrate to another list. Bob's input, "I would have to run a few tests myself..." said a lot to me. Unless one has tried the hives, how will one know how the hives work IN THEIR OPERATION AND LOCATION!? Personally, living in a rather harsh winter environment in upstate New York (it gets cold here, REAL cold, for extended periods) I am VERY interested in the reviews claiming great success in overwintering. This is not new, it's been posted to BEE-L before. So I bought 10 poly hives last spring and will see how the bees do this winter. Indeed, "I would have to run a few tests myself..." I hope the bees do as well for me as others in climates like mine report. Aaron Morris - thinking don't knock it if you haven't tried it! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:05:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Imported Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scott and All, >For what it's worth, I for one would llike to buy inseminated queens out >of Mexico where they have been utilizing the proven disease and pest >resistance of the AHB for years and enjoying all the savings of getting >off the chemical treadmill. I know of no such bee in Mexico. Can you point to a specific beekeeper? The Mexican beekeepers I have talked to have had the same problems with varroa as we have even though they believe a percentage of AHb exists in their colonies. >Here in California we have a new geographic race that flew in on its >own from Mexico, and yet we can't buy the selected commercial >performer and save several years of American trial and error. You need to be more specific or at least describe the bee and provide data on the bees capability to survive varroa. The SMR bee developed by the USDA in Baton Rouge , LA. have had the lowest varroa count than any AHB, Russian queen or survivor queen. Order a few queens ,install and see for yourself. >I would bet a couple of beekeepers in Texas and Arizona are already >making some chemical free honey. As posted many times on BEE-L by Jerry B.. Contaminents can be found in most honeys of the world from the environment. None of the chemicals found in honey from the use of government approved strips is above parts per billion. Only in very rare cases (I am told) have any fluvalinate or choumaphos residues been detected in honey. Beewax fluvalinate and coumaphos contamination has been easier to find and is fairly common but still the contamination is low but detectable. The honey sold in the U.S. is plenty safe. I resent the implication that U.S. produced honey is full of chemicals. I do accept the fact that much of the China honey is antibiotic contaminated. I also except the fact that when China gets its new crop the contaminated honey will be blended with the new crop so the contamination can not be detected and then shipped all over the world. Most of the crop of 2002 produced in China remains unsold in China. China production ie equal to the total Us and Argentina production combined. Once antibiotic contamination can not be detected in China honey the flood of honey into the world market from China will start again. The government owns *ALL* the honey in China and will move the honey at whatever the market dictates and moving the product is of higher priority than the price. Every spike in honey prices has been followed by a below average pricing in the next year through out history. *Food for thought for all those beekeepers expanding as fast as they can chasing the high wholesale price (today) of honey.* Will the price offered by packers next fall be high *or* (like always) below the cost of production? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:45:56 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > If we cannot keep packages coming out of the south with SHB and high varroa > loads how are we to keep new beekeeping problems from coming in from outside > our borders. Especially when those breeders are on the honor system? It is a misrepresentation of the requirements to export to describe potential Australian and NZ bee breeders as being an an 'honour system'. The systems and compliance requirements to receive a permit to export *far* exceed the requirements (are there *any*?) on your domestic suppliers of packages. The repetition that there is no 'inspection' involved, and that it is an 'honour' system appears as a systematic approach to manage opinions. The fact is that any export permit obtained here will involve more rigour than any internal sale of bees in the US. The problems that you were describing were entirely of a domestic nature - your own suppliers providing packages with high varroa loadings. Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:03:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote: > Bob's input, "I would have to run a few tests myself..." said a lot to me. > Unless one has tried the hives, how will one know how the hives work IN THEIR OPERATION AND LOCATION!? I have just returned from doing a three day event along with Jerry Hayes of Dadant. Both of us spent the weekend promoting beekeeping and Jerry did a couple excellent beekeeping seminars. Jerry was surprised I sat through a seminar but I found the twist Jerry put on "reasons to keep bees* excellent and plan to use the same subject matter in a upcoming Midwestern beekeepers program . I am always learning beekeeping and do not have all the answers to today's tough beekeeping questions. My point is Dadant had both wood and poly hives on display. I actually recommended the poly hive to the new beekeepers. There is enough about the poly hive that I like that I believe I would buy the poly if I had only a few hives. I did not see anything about the poly hive which I felt would cause problems for the beekeeper on permanent locations and several advantages over wood. I do see many problems with the poly hive in the application we use and do not believe the poly hive will ever be accepted by migratory beekeepers. Walter Kelley asked my opinion of his hard plastic beeware years ago. I said I would be afraid they would warp over time (yes I bought a few to try!). Took longer than I thought but the tops and bottoms did all warp after a long time. Would the poly hive last a 100 years as Murray suggested without warping? I do not know but have to wonder. Walter kelley's plastic tops and bottoms were very ridged but still warped. Did others on the list have the same experience as I did with the Kelley plastic equipment? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:26:16 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aleksandar Mihajlovski said: > You can check if your honeybees are different, and > what they "think" about ventilation. > Make a hive which have ALL sides made from mesh > (screen), also bottom and top. Hold on there... Was that: a) A test of the bees' reaction to increased airflow and ventilation? b) Nothing but a test of the bees' obsessive-compulsive need to plug up what they viewed as "cracks"? I'd submit that it was (b), not (a). They can't fit their heads through 8-mesh, so they filled up the "cracks". Consider the lowly propolis trap. Put it in, and the bees will happily fill it up. If placed properly, it blocks no ventilation at all. If you want to test airflow, you can rig fans driven by solar panels, and increase airflow without increasing openings. (Gotta cover the fans with mesh, or you get bee puree...) I have inner covers with built-in upper entrances cut in one side of the "front" with widths than vary from 1 inch to as much as 6 inches wide. (I was "testing") Never saw any hive propolize more than the usual amount around the inner cover edges, and never saw the opening reduced by propolis. Same for the lower entrance. ...and I DID get some propolis on my screened bottom board mesh. Toward the back corners of the hive, furthest from the entrance, never towards the front. My homebrew "Klugen-Bottom" (TM) (an integrated screen bottom board, sticky paper shelf, bottle opener, and anti-raccoon/possum spike strip weapons system) lets me slide out the screen for debris cleaning, and the sliding was sometimes more difficult than I would like until I got smart and coated the edges of the screen frame (like a window screen frame) with a thin coat of wax. ...which is a good trick for frame ears and their rests if you have lots of extra wax you don't feel like selling and lots of time this winter - anything you give a nice coating of wax (dip, paint, whatever) is not propolized nearly as much (if at all) as unwaxed surfaces of the same type. Wax works like a champ in observation hives too. Less goo is good. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:11:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Nick, Can you give me a few reasons why we need your bees and queens? I feel we should be placing our USDA SMR and Russian stock out instead. Any open border is a risk for importation of a new beekeeping problem is it not? Are we going to be able to ship queens and packages into your country? Seems only fair. If not why not? I honestly believe your country could benifit from the SMR trait. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:06:09 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Are we going to be able to ship queens and packages into your country? Seems only fair. > If not why not? US bees have trachael mites. NZ bees do not. But even then, if you can describe how you could ship your bees here to minimise that risk to an acceptable level, it doesn't even matter much what I or any other beekeeper think. You would be granted access on the basis of free trade. NZ has existing import health standards that allow for importation of bee genetic material in a controlled manner. It has been used in the past to bring in new strains... > Can you give me a few reasons why we need your bees and queens? I do not suggest that you need our bees and queens. I do suggest that some beekeepers might want them for a variety of reasons - timing for delivery, quality of strains, consistency and reliability. Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: Beeswax for Sealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Inquiry: Can bees wax be used as a sealing wax with an impressed seal? If so, can it be used in a low temperature sealing wax gun? Thanks! Shane __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:51:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <002101c2843d$42c6ee00$3bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The poly hives sound great,but in a normal season here our hives get chewed on by ground squirrels,some get tossed around by bears,skunks are constantly digging and scratching on them,and for good measure cows push a few over while rubbing .I cant imagine these hives could possibly hold up to this kind of abuse,the wooden ones barely do. ---Mike(leaving now to run a load of bees outta the mountains,storm on the way) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:02:31 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity In-Reply-To: <002801c2843e$68a24920$3bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob wrote: > Can you give me a few reasons why we need your bees and queens? Perhaps you feel you don't need them. If these sentiments are held by US beekeepers, you won't have any more stock arriving than already arrives from NZ and Aust via Canada. It takes willing buyers in the USA, for trade to occur. > Any open border is a risk for importation of a new beekeeping problem is it > not? Refering to the protocols as an "open border" is more than a little misleading. > Are we going to be able to ship queens and packages into your country? Seems > only fair. If not why not? If the USA is able to come up with a way of preventing the transmission of: Tracheal Mite, European Foul Brood, Small Hive Beetle, Africanised Honey Bees, to NZ that eliminates *significant* risk (and there will be a definition of "significant" somewhere in the raft of accepted international trade protocols) and can guarantee permanent repeated performance, then NZ would be compelled to look at it. The reality is that the cost of doing this would be great, the technical feasibility would be low/zero, and the demand would be low, adding up to a prohibitively high cost for any eventual shipments. Who would pay at your end to set these up? The US government/taxpayers? If Congress got wind of that..........., the derision heaped on the Honey Loan Programme would look like an accolade :-) > I honestly believe your country could benifit from the SMR trait. I quite agree. However the *repeated* shipping of this genetic stock is unlikely to occur due to the immense (impossible?) difficulties of keeping out the above mentioned pests and diseases, but I am sure that there are people in NZ that would like to see the importation of semen and or eggs etc. Perhaps this may happen. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:02:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Fiala Subject: SHB Organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm passing on the following from a friend who is not on BEE-L: If you are in the Bee-L net ask if anyone has information _first hand_ on the mature beetle passing through the 7/inch wire. We know the larvae go through very easily and most of the “professionals” just say the beetles pass through. Does anyone really know first hand? I know they vary in size, but I suspect the male is possibly the only one that can pass. Alan Fiala in Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 00:46:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Neon Rosell Subject: Apis dorsata - Help! In-Reply-To: <200211050501.gA54vtER005066@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello everybody, I know this is quite an out of topic question but from the vast knowledge this group has probably some of you can help me. I’m from the Philippines and my friend called me regarding a colony of Apis dorsata that has made it’s home on a pipe on a semi abandoned Plant (Petrochemical). His problem is how to get rid of it without using flammable ways and without harming the colony just to shoo them away. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you. Neon __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:46:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <002101c2843d$42c6ee00$3bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002101c2843d$42c6ee00$3bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >I do see many problems with the poly hive in the application we use and do >not believe the poly hive will ever be accepted by migratory beekeepers. I can see that very well in your major league migratory situations where the bees can be on the truck for what, to us, are extreme periods. They would all overheat unless you had some remarkable ventilation system. We only move them 150 miles at most and we NEED to do something about the heat problem. > >Walter Kelley asked my opinion of his hard plastic beeware years ago. I said >I would be afraid they would warp over time (yes I bought a few to try!). >Took longer than I thought but the tops and bottoms did all warp after a >long time. Thats because, despite appearances, many things we see as solids are actually fluids. May take 100 years to become apparent, but fluids they are. Glass is an example, as are many plastics. I have read of the glass in very old windows (we are talking several hundred years here) being thicker at the bottom than at the top due to the very slow sagging which occurs. I would hazard that this may be the case too with thermoplastics, where, given enough time, they will sag under their own weight, rate varying only with temperature. > Would the poly hive last a 100 years as Murray suggested >without warping? I do not know but have to wonder. Given the above I would expect that in extreme time scales the answer is probably yes. However, this material is mainly gaseous, is very light, and just by the mechanics of it, one of the main forces acting on it to make it sag is radically reduced, to no more than 10% of the force were it solid plastic. With it being mainly bubbles it has a cellular structure, not entirely unlike another cellular structure of a fluid (but seemingly a solid) which we know very well. Jorn has had his for 40 years without problems. I can see them lasting a whole heap longer than that. Once you get beyond the length of one full career (say 50 years), just how much more do you want to say they are as good as wood. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:12:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <200211050354.gA53swE1002280@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200211050354.gA53swE1002280@listserv.albany.edu>, Mike Tooley writes >The poly hives sound great,but in a normal season here our hives get chewed >on by ground squirrels,some get tossed around by bears,skunks are >constantly digging and scratching on them,and for good measure cows push a >few over while rubbing .I cant imagine these hives could possibly hold up >to this kind of abuse,the wooden ones barely do. This merely underscores what has in reality been being said all along. These are not the box for everyone. I'll deal with each in turn. Squirrels. Yes, they do eat away at them (albeit ours are tree squirrels). Happened worst when we left straps on hives and the squirrels gnawed through the straps and then carried on to have a gnaw at the boxes. No straps, no chewing (which is very odd). They smooth off the corners then seem to leave them alone. I doubt the stuff does not taste good to them. Bears. Nothing you can do about that, but then its the same for wood. The poly boxes will be a bit like a snack cracker to a bear. Skunks. This could be the killer fact for you. The claws will rip into the polystyrene much more easily than wood. Many are made with only 80g material which is indeed a little soft (see P-O's post), but the 100g ones are much harder. I cannot comment on skunks, but we have woodpeckers here, which will attack wood, but leave the polystyrene alone, as apparently the beak sticks in the material and rather than bouncing off they have to physically pull back and cannot get a drilling action going. Any relevance to skunks claws? I don't know but perhaps you do. Cows. The original 4 piece ones will break relatively readily in these circumstances. The new 100g one piece ones will be as tough as the wooden ones. In addition to this we have one particular and rather surprising nemesis. Rabbits. There are one or two places where we just cannot put these for winter. These are places with a high rabbit population, in forest, and if there is serious snow cover they struggle to find food and will chew anything sticking up above snow level. Even wooden hives have been gnawed away almost right through the wood. Mistakenly I left a couple of Apidea mini nucs in one of the forests one winter, and the rabbits made short work of them. Never left poly hives there. The underparts of the floors of some of the models have too many protruding parts to them as well. Mice go underneath and chew these bits away for nesting material. Never actually had any enter a hive yet, but they can cause some damage below the floors. The German version of the polystyrene has a plastic mesh in the floor panel. Mice eat through this, and we are replacing all these with 10 gauge stainless steel mesh instead, which has eliminated two problems. 1. Rodent damage 2. Bees heads getting stuck in the mesh when migrating thus closing off the airflow . (We found this happening with both the plastic grids and with 8 gauge mesh) There are negatives for sure, and I would not pretend otherwise. However, as Aaron said, you have to try them to reach a valid judgement on their worth to your bees. Their ability to fit in with what you do and the circumstances you operate under is another matter, and if these dictate it to be foolish then just leave them to others. >---Mike(leaving now to run a load of bees outta the mountains,storm on the >way) Ditto. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:36:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <002e01c28409$5d9ae6c0$41ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002e01c28409$5d9ae6c0$41ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >I had to chuckle at the above. Maybe Murray has bought stock in the >polystyrene hive industry? Not quite Bob, but nearly. I have taken a holding in a mould (actually two), to get things made just the way I want them for my operation. This is a considerable expense as it is a specialised tool with moving parts. I MAY decide to recoup some of this cost by selling units on to others. > >The simple truth is bees hoard nectar in a honey flow and are only limited >by colony size and storage space. I would have to run a few tests myself or >see the results of tests run before I would buy into the idea that bees in >polystyrene hives out produce bees in wood hives by any significant amount >with all other factors being equal year after year. On a simple colony basis the difference will not be large. However, as the original post a 'kind person' dragged over from s.a.b. highlighted, it very much depends on how you measure it. I like to look at it from the point of view of how much effort has gone into it, and one crucial cost factor is the number of hives we put into winter and feed. Thus I try to draw a line back to what I view as the start of the beekeepers year, autumn (fall). So I base my calcs on autumn count for establishing what type of hive does best. It may be that, in your circumstances, there is little advantage. In mine it is fairly conclusive that there is a benefit, and that benefit is primarily the over wintering and rate of recovery from splitting. In wood I sometimes have difficulty keeping the numbers up, if all in polystyrene I will have difficulty keeping the numbers down. (Perhaps the first part needs some clarification. It is easy to keep the numbers up in wood, but the hard trick is to keep them up AND get a full honey crop, all this with only 12 weeks from emergence from winter to the peak summer honey flow.) > I will keep a open mind >and await further information. Of course. I would expect no more than that as it is the correct approach. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:36:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <001a01c282c8$e2adb460$70ae73d1@pii266> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote: "I know that in Europe, in some regions where polystyrene hives are common, that beekeepers don't use top entrances. What are your thoughts? Maybe Mats and P-O and others might comment too." I will humbly leave that question over to P-O. I have only been using polystyrene hives for two years. I did not know about top entrances before i joined this list. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beeswax for Sealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by Bumble_the_Beekeeper@BTINTERNET.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. - Original message (ID=A34757DD) (39 lines)- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 13:15:46 +0000 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Beeswax for Sealing From: Bumble To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology What is a "Low Temperature" sealing wax gun? I understand that traditional sealing wax had propolis added to it in order to give colour and hardness. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:12:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Ventilation In-Reply-To: <01C28416.84C70E60.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:26 PM 11/4/02 -0500, James Fischer wrote: >Never saw any hive propolize more than the usual amount >around the inner cover edges, and never saw the opening >reduced by propolis. Same for the lower entrance. When provided with both an upper and normal lower entrance I have seen my bees (Italians) reduce and sometimes entirely close the upper entrance. The upper entrance I use is a 2" by 3/8" opening above the topmost box. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:46:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Beeswax for Sealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800 Shane Woodruff writes: > Can bees wax be used as a sealing wax with an > impressed seal? > Elaine White's book "Super Formulas" lists two recipes for sealing wax... Colored Sealing Wax a mixture of 1/2 ounce beeswax, 3 ounces blonde shellac and dry artist pigment Metallic Sealing Wax combines 1/2 ounce beeswax, 4 ounces blond shellac and 1/4 ounce bronze powder General Directions, Color, Molding, Applying Sealing Wax, Corks, Glass bottle Stoppers and Tamper-Proof Seals are covered. Check the suppliers catalogs. Rick Leber "Sweet Home" Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:43:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Philip Earle Subject: FW: bee keeping association membership Comments: To: irishbeekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: Vuksic-Podgorcic Lidija [mailto:lidija.vuksic-podgorcic@nek.si] Sent: 05 November 2002 07:41 To: j.a.p.earle Subject: bee keeping association membership Dear Sirs, my cousin Dra¾en Erceg has recently retired. He's (also recently) started bee keeping small business for his pleasure and to supply his friends with a good quality honey. This is a non-profitable business. I would be happy to help him to join some bee keeping association because he really enjoys reading anything that has to do with bees. Please, advise how I can do it. He lives in Split (on Croatian Adriatic coast). Best regards, Lidija Vuksic-Podgorcic ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:22:14 -0600 Reply-To: Bob Fanning Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Fanning Subject: Local honey customer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an internet customer that is looking for Local honey in teh Woodbury, Georgia area. Any beekeeper interested in selling small qualtities, retail in that area let me know by email (k4vb@knology.net) and I will foreword your email address and or phone number to the customer. Bobby R. Fanning, K4VB President, Madison County Beekeepers Association 1332 Four Mile Post Rd. Huntsville, AL 35802 USA See Our WebPages at www.alabees.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 16:06:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <002101c2843d$42c6ee00$3bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, all the plastic hive parts (except one or two bottoms and one top) that i have (and have seen) are warped. Inner covers the worst, then boxes. Tops and bottoms the least warping. Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > Walter Kelley asked my opinion of his hard plastic beeware years > ago. I said > I would be afraid they would warp over time (yes I bought a few to try!). > Took longer than I thought but the tops and bottoms did all warp after a > long time. Would the poly hive last a 100 years as Murray suggested > without warping? I do not know but have to wonder. Walter kelley's plastic > tops and bottoms were very ridged but still warped. Did others on the list > have the same experience as I did with the Kelley plastic equipment? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: Walter kelley's plastic > tops and bottoms were very ridged but still warped. Did others on the list > have the same experience as I did with the Kelley plastic equipment? > > Bob The inner covers warped a lot. I quit using them, but have had good results with the bottom and outer covers in normal usage. Bottom board sitting flat on a platform. Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Make a hive which have ALL sides made from mesh >>(screen), also bottom and top. > They can't fit their heads through 8-mesh, so they filled > up the "cracks". > Anybody remember the hive covers that were sold -Oh, about 50 years ago- They had glass fiber insulation with a wire mesh toward the bees. Several holes (abt quarter inch) in the rim, slanted down to keep moisture out, and to vent. Bees "filled up the cracks." I took the insulation and mesh out and used them for a while. Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: WTO Rules As Applied to "Bee Biosecurity" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does the WTO say about port-of-entry testing of bees, or any live animal? This is from the WTO's own plain-English summary of the agreements from the "Uruguay Round" of trade negotiations (the emphasis is mine): http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/ursum_e.htm Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade " This agreement will extend and clarify the Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade reached in the Tokyo Round. It seeks to ensure that technical negotiations and standards, as well as testing and certification procedures, do not create unnecessary obstacles to trade." However, it recognizes that COUNTRIES HAVE THE RIGHT to establish protection, at levels THEY consider appropriate, for example for human, animal or plant life or health or the environment, and should NOT BE PREVENTED from taking measures necessary to ensure those levels of protection are met. The agreement therefore encourages countries to use international standards where these are appropriate, but it does not require them to CHANGE their levels of protection as a result of standardization." The "current level of protection" in the US includes inspection and quarantine of every and every imported live bee. No one has even mentioned "quarantines" in regard to the proposed regulations, so it appears that the "current level of protection" is being massively relaxed through the removal of major features (quarantines) that are well-known to provide real protection. But the WTO does not require anyone to accept "Trust Me" as their sole "level of protection". Not from anyone. Not ever. Further, we can't find a single country that imports ANY live animal without some form of port-of-entry testing. Let's not lower the bar for the entire planet here, and create an new all-time-low in lax biosecurity rules, less they be imposed upon your favorite country next. So, a reasonable man would want testing, samples, and checks-and-balances. Just like the UK does now. What's so onerous about that? jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:43:17 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I have to correct my statement of more than 40 years. Even if I am turning into an old boy I am not that old.(born 1942) The correct should have said more then thirty years. exact it is thirty-five years because I started with polystyrene hives in 1967, and still have those original hives with following modifications : Bottom not polystyrene but simple a wooden frame with 2/3 mesh floor. Top a simple frame with a 5mm plywood plate and roofing felt. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk > Jorn has had his for 40 years without problems. I can see them lasting a > whole heap longer than that. Once you get beyond the length of one full > career (say 50 years), just how much more do you want to say they are > as good as wood. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:27:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter, Nick and All, Peter Bray wrote: > > Perhaps you feel you don't need them. If these sentiments are held >by US beekeepers, you won't have any more stock arriving than already arrives from NZ and Aust via Canada. It takes willing buyers in the USA, for trade to occur. Trans-shipment of packages or queens via Canada would be a federal offense in both Canada and the US. Hmmm. > > Refering to the protocols as an "open border" is more than a > > little misleading. The borders were closed to prevent the U.S. from getting tracheal mite, varroa and small hive beetle among other things. Did not work as the closing of the borders of your country did not work for you. Closing the border helps in preventing the spread of beekeeping problems but we both got a few of beekeepings new problems even with closed borders did we not? . Allowing direct shipment without quarentine of bees and queens is asking for trouble. THE REASON OUR BORDERS HAVE BEEN CLOSED FOR OVER 75 YEARS. Let us exchange frozen semen only and forget the direct shipment of queens and bees without inspection upon entering our country. None of the reasons you stated for our needing your bees and queens can not be met by our U.S. queen breeders. > > I quite agree. However the *repeated* shipping of this genetic stock is unlikely to occur due to the immense (impossible?) difficulties of keeping out the above mentioned pests and diseases, There are worse mites than varroa in your area of the world. What quarenties can you give that the introduction of those pests will not be imported into the U.S.? You say you only have so many pests but all over the world new pests are poping up in places they have never been found before and even you guys do not have *any idea* how you got varroa or SHB. I said in a post on the discovery of varroa in your country that varroa had clearly been in your country TWO YEARS before you detected varroa . You sent me the information and many asked for my input. Which I gladly gave. Varroa slipped up on your inspectors. What other pest will. How many countries bought packages with varroa thinking the packages were varroa free? Are you activly looking for Tropilaeclaps clareae ? Is "Very sorry" the answer we will get if a deadly pest comes to the U.S. from your direction? In my opinion the reasons you gave for why we need your bees is not great enough to over ride the risks and change policy that has been in place for over 75 years. A policy change done with much secrecy I might add and rushed through very fast. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:55:10 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Feelings Of Insecurity about Bee Biosecurity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Wallingford said: > It is a misrepresentation of the requirements to export to describe > potential Australian and NZ bee breeders as being an 'honour system'. If it is not an "honor system", then where are the checks and balances? In business of any sort, one needs checks and balances. ...and BEFORE the bees get "in country". It's called "bio-security". Its also called "operating independently of trust". To simplify, its called "good business sense". You see, the issue at hand has nothing to do with New Zealand or Australia. Nothing at all. The only "issue" is that in World Trade, the LOWEST standard has a habit of becoming the defacto standard, and there are some countries that none of us can ever trust. To our knowledge, this proposal is a first in world trade. No other live animals have EVER been shipped between WTO trading countries without some form of port-of-entry inspection. > The systems and compliance requirements to receive a permit to export *far* > exceed the requirements (are there *any*?) on your domestic suppliers of > packages. USA's "domestic suppliers" know that many beekeepers will pay them a very personal visit if they ship packages or queens with diseases. They wouldn't like that sort of a visit. So they don't. > The repetition that there is no 'inspection' involved, and that > it is an 'honour' system appears as a systematic approach to manage > opinions. One can verify each and every word written with specific references to official documents. How else would one characterize a proposal by an agency with the words "Animal" and "Inspection" in their very NAME, when the proposal has no inspections of animals in it, and does not even reserve the right to do statistical sampling? > The fact is that any export permit obtained here will involve more > rigour than any internal sale of bees in the US. The "rigor" in the USA is based upon PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. One knows one's breeders, and can look them in the eye when they talk, and look at their operations, and talk to their people. They can earn trust. Perhaps this should be reduced to a standard set of metics, but it isn't. > US bees have trachael mites. NZ bees do not. Isn't that what was said about varroa recently? :) Regardless, why would anyone anywhere want bees bred where there are NO tracheal mites? That's like buying a car designed and built where they have never had a single road accident: "Bumpers? We don't have BUMPERS!!!! Our country is 100% accident-free!" > But even then, if you can describe how you could ship your bees here to > minimise that risk to an acceptable level, it doesn't even matter much what > I or any other beekeeper think. If you want US bees, you know the phone numbers to call. No one from the US is going to bang their fist on the table demanding "market access" to send live animals from here to there. I doubt anyone ever will. The US is just not that desperate for cash. Let's talk about how the UK inspects all imported bees. Everyone would want to do the same, since their system exists, and works. What USDA APHIS are proposing is an untested kludge, a basis for confusion and disagreement. ji ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: >Yes, all the plastic hive parts (except one or two bottoms and one top) that >i have (and have seen) are warped. Inner covers the worst, then boxes. Tops >and bottoms the least warping. > We are probably talking about different plastics and different makeup (solid vs foam). Some plastics have "memory" if made into a solid shape. Heat does not necessarily warp them but they actually revert to their memorized shape (depends on the stresses in the plastic at manufacture so you can end up with different outcomes depending on the uniformity of manufacture). Heat will allow them to revert, but they would do so in a long enough time with or without heat. Foam constructed bodies would be less prone to have memory while denser bodies would be likely to "warp". Also depends on the plastic. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:46:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:46 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Small Hive Beetle Hello Tom and All, >I know that some American beekeepers have had to put up with this >latest pest for about four years and that Coumaphos seems to give >adequate control. Those wishing to get first hand information on the small hive beetle can find first hand information on the Florida Beekeepers list. I get most of my information from Florida bee inspectors and Florida commercial beekeepers but the list has over a 100 posts from small to large beekeepers explaining their own problems with the SHB. A recent post by a Florida beekeeper which works with a commercial beekeeper. Posted on the Florida list by William Lewis: "I will say that I have done just about everything possible to keep the small hive beetle at bay." "Spraying the ground, traps, etc., but to no avail. A waste of time and money". Mr. Lewis's post is typical of the frustration caused by keeping bees in areas of SHb infestation. If you dislike cleaning up a dead hive taken over by the wax moth you are really going to dislike cleaning up a hive slimed by the SHB. The small hive beetle causes in many cases the bees to abscond.The SHB travels with the swarm to the new location. Posted by Herb of the Florida list: "The swarms I'm talking about are free hanging. Freshly absconded, usually a day or two. and before they found a permanent home. Adult beetles were with the bees in the swarm." Sincerely, Bob Harrison *Lurker* on the Florida list. Raised in Florida and started beekeeping in Florida. Parents lived in Florida until passed away. Frequent visitor to Florida and may return to Florida to stay in the future. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:28:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, Bill wrote: > Foam constructed bodies would be less prone to have memory while denser bodies would be likely to "warp". Also depends on the plastic. Time will tell about the foam bodies. Jorn's seems to be the best testimony *but* what happened to the original tops and bottoms Jorn? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:42:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: WTO Rules As Applied to "Bee Biosecurity" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Jim wrote in part ( small part ): "The "current level of protection" in the US includes inspection and quarantine of every and every imported live bee." Sorry Jim but there is no inspection required for bees from Canada at all. No requirements at the federal level at all. None. Only state requirements apply which vary somewhat from state to state but most require inspection and certification of the health status of the bees from "point or origin". This would be the same as would be required under the APHIS proposal. Inspection from country of origin would still be required with certificates along with the shipment. Only real change is adding Australia and New Zealand to the list of countries that can ship bees into the US under proper inspection and certification. Interesting discussion but it just doesn't seem to be something to get alarmed about. The last problem was imported without bringing in bees - small hive beetles. Other problems are just as likely to come in with general trade as with the regulated trade in live bees with inspection and certification procedures to help find and stop problems before they are shipped. No system can be devised that will keep out all bees or exotic pests that could become a problem. Someone will figure out a way around the system and can thereby put an entire industry at risk - how do you think we got varroa in the late 1980's when imports of live bees were banned from everywhere except Canada? We didn't get varroa from Canada - they got it from us. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:52:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Foam constructed bodies would be less prone to have memory while denser > bodies would be likely to "warp". Also depends on the plastic. In Canada, Tegart Apiaries have devised a five-frame nuc box that stands up really well. The unit costs about $20 US. It has hard plastic contact and lid surfaces and is stryo filled. It is quite similar in some ways to a good quality picnic cooler. They have proven extremely durable and stand up for many years of trucking and bashing around. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:06:21 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <000b01c28598$742992c0$3dac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Time will tell about the foam bodies. Jorn's seems to be the best > testimony > *but* what happened to the original tops and bottoms Jorn? I have not bought some tops and bottoms because it was cheaper for me to make my own wood tops and bottoms because of price. the price for a top or a bottom was at that time the same as a bodie box. Also for my operation it was more suffient to make my own buttom so that it was possible to fit 4 hives on a 1 metre square pallet. With The original buttons it was not possible. I will see if I can get my camera to work again and place a html on my homepage with some photos of my setup. In principle my button is a frame with one of the short sides 8 mm thinner than the order sides to allow bees to get in and out. I have also added two legs to make it possible to move the hives around in beeyard on a special constructed wheelbarrow even if I could not lift the hive myself. The legs are just two wooden sticks nailed across the short side under the button. Please remember I am not using the screened button for Varroa control but only for its original purpose :Ventilation. best regards Jorn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:54:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > In Canada, Tegart Apiaries have devised a five-frame nuc > box that stands up really well. The unit costs about $20 US > It has hard plastic contact and lid surfaces and is stryo filled. > It is quite similar in some ways to a good quality picnic cooler. Is this item actually styrene or is it 'skinned polyurathane foam'? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:00:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cesar Flores Subject: Bear skunk In-Reply-To: <200211060500.gA64pgEH007362@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We often (quite often) have trouble with bears in Colorado. But I had a curious situation recently. In my often careless beekeeping style I left a beeyard completely unprotected and during the early summer a family of skunks apparently moved in under a hive pallet. I also did nothing about it (other than work carefully there). However in one of our bad bear seasons only this one yard was completely unvisited by bears. Electrified yards all showed evidence of bears. Could it be the skunks who are keeping the bears away? I know the skunks are affecting the hive population and sure I should keep both out but it is just interesting to me... Any related experiences or thoughts? Cesar Flores __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: WTO Rules As Applied to "Bee Biosecurity" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White said: > there is no inspection required for bees from Canada at all. Yes, that has been discussed in excruciating detail. But the subject of the message was >>>WTO<<< trading rules. Canada need not resort to "WTO rules" to sell stuff to us. They are a "NAFTA trading partner". Canadian imports HAFTA comply with NAFTA! Different agreements, different rules for those sharing a several thousand mile long physical border. Makes sense. So don't worry - MN's imports of "cold-hardy bees" from Canada are assured, and will not be affected by WTO. ...and you won't have to inspect them all. So, I'll say it again: The current (WTO) "level of protection" in the US includes inspection and quarantine of each and every imported live bee. > Interesting discussion but it just doesn't seem to be something to get > alarmed about. Not if all one considers is bees from specific places that clearly have some level of disease control effort, like Canada, New Zealand, or Australia, but think a few moves ahead: First, realize that Canada, NZ, and Oz are NOT the issue. What happens after what comes next? Who's the NEXT contestant who might want to play? Who else might point to this agreement and demand "equal treatment"? ...and get it unconditionally, since WTO does not allow "favoritism". Perhaps the same country that recently tried to sell contaminated honey to several countries, and then conspired to trans-ship it under "false flag" documents? That's the sort of scenario that bothers me. This is a very bad precedent for "live animal importation rules" in general. > The last problem was imported without bringing in bees - small hive beetles. Likely true. Small hive beetle is one of the few pests or diseases that can be "imported" without bees. But if one looks at a semi-complete list of pests and diseases (appended below), this is an exception, rather than the rule. Live bees are the most likely vehicle for spreading bee diseases and pests. > No system can be devised that will keep out all bees or exotic pests > that could become a problem. True, nothing's perfect. That's why one needs checks and balances. No one expects "perfect", but blind faith is not a "system". An actual "system" is what is required. The UK seems to have a good one. Let's borrow it from them - they say they won't mind if we do. > Someone will figure out a way around the system and can thereby put > an entire industry at risk That seems to be a depressing, defeatist view. With that view, why do anything about anything? With that view, why even employ bee inspectors or state apiarists? While there are "bee smugglers", there are not many. APHIS could try harder to catch a few at the airports. Perhaps APHIS could learn a few tricks from New Zealand and Australia. I recall that one or the other caught a fellow trying to smuggle bees recently. > How do you think we got varroa in the late 1980's when imports of live bees > were banned from everywhere except Canada? Well, how long do varroa live when isolated from bees? Not very long. Seems nearly certain that they got here on LIVE BEES. But here's a much more entertaining "quiz question"... Which of the pests and diseases listed below are easiest to transmit via live bees, and which are nearly impossible to transmit across oceans in any other way? Viruses Paralysis Sacbrood Acute Paralysis and Kashmir Virus Deformed Wing & Egyptian Bee Virus Slow Paralysis Virus Black Queen Cell Virus Filamentous Virus Y Virus Bee Virus "X" Cloudy Wing Virus Apris iridescent virus Akansas Bee Virus Bacteria American Foulbrood European Foulbrood Septicemia Powdery Scale Disease Spiroplasmas Rickettsial Disease Protozoa Nosema Amoeba Disease Gregarines Flagellates Fungi Chalkbrood Bettsia Alvei Stonebrood Melanosis Trichoderma lignorum Mucor mucedo Aspergillus niger Claviceps (Only genus known for this one) Nematodes Agamomermis Pest Insects Wax Moths Braula coeca Other Braulidae Asilidae Phoridae Calliphoridae Pollenia Conopidae Phoridae Sarcophagidae Tachinidae Mites Non-phoretic Mites Acarus siro Acarus immoblis Tyrophagus putrescentiae Tyrophagus longior Tyrophagus palmarum Tyrolichus casei Oudemans Carpoglyphus lactis Suidasia pontifica Phoretic Mites Neocypholaelaps (in general) Neocypholaelaps indica Neocypholaelaps favus Afrocypholaelaps (in general) Afrocypholaelaps africana Edbarellus (in general) Tropilaelaps Tarsonemus Pseudacarapis indoapis Parasitic Mites Varroa jacobsoni Varroa destructor Varroa underwoodi Euvarroa sinhai Euvarroa wongsiri Tropolaelaps clareae Tropolaelaps koenigerum Acarapis externus Acarapis dorsalis Acarapis woodi Pyemotes ventricosus cohort Parasitengona of the suborder Prostigmata Erythraeidae: Leptus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:53:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bear skunk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Cesar & All, Cesar wrote: Could it be the skunks who are keeping the bears away? I doubt it but maybe your bear had a bad experience with a skunk so your bear gives skunks the right of way. I have seen farm animals and dogs which have been sprayed by a skunk never go around a skunk again. We had a orphaned skunk which we had the scent gland removed as a pet on the farm. The skunk loved attention and people. When salesmen would come to the farmhouse we would let the skunk out the front door (when he was young) and he would run to greet the salesman. We laughed till we had tears in our eyes until Grandma made us stop. When the skunk got older he lived outside with the farm dogs and never left the yard. The skunk died of old age at around six years of age. Could a descented bear skunk kept in our remote apiaries in bear country be the answer to our bear problems? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives In-Reply-To: <001501c2823f$842baac0$728a4c51@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Harry Goudie > > Using polystyrene > in landfill is, I think ok, as it will decompose eventually > nothing is ever > destroyed it is only recycled. >From one manufacturer's info page: http://www.fullback.com/pt_environment.php "The biological inertness of expanded polystyrene is especially suited for building insulation. Expanded polystyrene products are inert and safe in landfills, although they will not decompose." "Polystyrene is a thermoplastic, which allows it to be continuously melted and reformed, making EPS a highly recyclable product. Collecting expanded polystyrene for recycling presents a challenge making consumer participation critical to recycling success." (so, when melted, it just turns to a puddle of goo, albeit a smaller volume than before, due to collapse of the air pockets). > From: Murray McGregor > > Scandinavia is about as eco-friendly as you can get. They cite > environmental grounds in their reasoning behind using them. So at least > some places with immaculate credentials would see fit to disagree with > you. Provided the old boxes were properly recycled, yes they could at least qualify as not overly unfriendly, just not as good as wood. However, recycling is not a legal option in most of the world if AFB is encountered, only burning or boiling in lye -- both of which destroy these (and plastic). Perhaps irradation, if availability spreads beyond Australia, would be an option. The process of creating polystyrene and molding it releases pentane (used to be several different CFC's) into the air (at low levels), which contributes (a very small) amount to ozone problems. But the greater damage is the use of oil (non-renewable) and and inevitable ending in the landfill (face it, most people don't recycle) or release into the air and ground from burning. > From: Murray McGregor >> >friendly paints, you could break and burn woodenware even inside, if in a > >small enough quantity). > > Up to a point yes, but you are left with more residue to dispose of in > these cases than with polystyrene. Even if we are just talking about the > nails alone. > Ashes are easily spread as fertilizer. The few nails (actualy, staples mostly here) are easily recycled with other metal sources (and easily picked up with a large magnet). > Also, have you seen how degraded land is after a crop of trees has been > felled? Only suitable for more trees without vast efforts to clear the > roots and stumps. To get the sizes needed for deep boxes you need OLD > trees too. Yep. About 100 yards from the house, on the other side of our woods and through the area. Tree cutters have been heavily soliciting private owners of even small plots here, looking mostly for hardwoods. Of course, the land is not suitable for anything else other than trees, so the stumps remain and the seedling trees left will fill in some day. Nothing compared to the devestation of areas that were strip mined or where mine tailings are dumped, however (which is only related to beekeeping in that such areas must be more than three miles from an organic bee yard -- assuming you could even establish such in the eastern part of the US, due to the other rules on isolation). > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Dick > > Substituting polystyrene for wood may reduce other polluting practices > associated with or arising out of using wood for supers. I just don't > know, but can speculate that the process of cutting wood reduces the > beneficial effect of forest and that the transporting, processing and > preserving of wood present negative environmental loads as well. The > additional load of transporting the relatively heavy weight of wood boxes > back and forth to the honey house many times over the life of the wood, in > terms of additional fuel consumed and the byproducts of that combustion, > are not negligible. I would assume that many times the mass of polystyrene > supers would be consumed in fossil fuel. Possibly using polystyrene boxes > might actually reduce overall petroleum stock consumption quite massively > compared to the small amount of petroleum used in manufacturing them. Possibly a good point. For pollinators, perhaps they could stack more bees on a semi-trailer and move more on the same amount of fuel. Since most such trucks get 4-6 MPG and there is essentially no change in fuel economy dependent on "reasonable" loads, I would think that just reducing weight of the load would have very little effect. For those pulling msaller loads with personal vehicles, perhaps 1 MPG difference might be achieved, dependent on the type of vhicle used. > While we are discussing the disposal aspects od bee equipment, I should say > that I like Pierco frames much better than wood and wax, but I really have > no idea of how to get rid of them after they have done their time, except > to bury them somewhere, or burn them. I agree that burning makes produces > many unattractive and toxic products. My concern as well (and I have some plastic foundation in my hives, so I am not blindly against its use, but concerned over its disposal). Burning contaminated equipment is required in this state (although some treatment is allowed, at the inspector's discretion) - but burning the plastic and polystyrene would violate several ordinances (as would burning wood at certain times of year in an open fire, but wood can be burned inside or in an outdoor wood stove easily, if care is taken on what it is painted with or dipped in (wax dipping would, I assume, leave no potential residue on burning, fi the wax was not contaminated) and what types of treatments are used). While burning wood does release quite a bit into the air, such burning is still done by homeowners to keep warm (as are other, dirtier fuels). Burned plasticware however, would result in a plastic mess in the bottom of the location used. Not to mention that most MSDS sheets on polystyrene warns of extremely toxic fumes upong burning, requirements for a non-smoking storage facility (due to combustible gas given off in storage, in one sheet), requirements to keep away from sources of ignition. A quick search turned up no published MSDS on the polystyrene bee hives, but there are many easily found on expanded polystyrene products and the raw material (along with scare sites concerned about such things as styrene accumulation in fat reserves of humans due to use of polystyrene packaging at McDonald's -- I also did not find any research on possble styrene accumulation in wax from such bee hives, which could mean there is none or that no one has doene such research). > In many cases, > wood is not permitted to be burnt, but is buried for disposal. I believe some areas here require burning and burial of the residue. > From: Jorn ohanesson > I have had my polystyrene hives for more than forty years now. They are > still all fit and useable. All I have done to them is to assemble > and give a one time dush of green water based paint I am interested in your extended use of these boxes. Dr Tew apparently felt they would not hold up well over time, with comments such as "soft", etc (http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/months/00aug/00august3.html), although perhaps he is talking about a different product than you have? > From: Bill Truesdell > but it > may be that oil does "grow back". There was a hypothesis many years ago > that oil is in continuous formation and is not static. What was once > thought of as oil seeping into old wells may be not old oil seeping in > but new oil created from all the methane that exists in the earths > mantel. The hypothesis now has many adherents. I must admit I missed that one. Last time I had looked, the massive vegetation die-off left the layers that became coal, while massive dinosaur "burial sites" resulted in oil pools (although, of course, there were quite a few steps in the actual conversion and dinos dying on the surface would be converted to scavenger food or fertilizer, rather than oil). I would imagine that the slow conversion of methane to oil won't help in the time period in which oil will be depleted. BTW, oil contamination here in water wells is usually due to new (small) oil wells being put in and initial leakage getting into the limestone layers, to seep out for years into wells, aquifers and streams (just had one in the news this year, due to its size and length of time to cap off the initial spill). Perhaps we can figure out a way to speed up the process, turning dairy "byproducts" into fuel for our cars? Much in the way you can now have yourself cremated and turned into a diamond? Note for those overseas, unlike many European operations, the effluent from such operations here is normally just left to settle in ponds or run off into rivers, rather than recaptured to produce methane. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:10:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: bee truck net repair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am trying to patch a few holes in my A.H. Meyer "road Runner" bee truck net. I was told by A.H. Meyer that some of the guys have used a marine glue to attach the patches and tell her the patch holds. Are there beekeepers on the list that can tell me the procedure, drying time and brand of marine glue? Thanks in advance! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Polystyrene vrs wood In 2000 I became aware of the quality of the polystyrene hives made in Europe and for approximately the next 18 months spent a great deal of time investigating whether they were appropriate for our climates and whether they could be manufactured and sold at a reasonable price. While I eventually decided to not manufacture, I became a complete convert to the concept. If I were starting over, and know what I know now, I would use only polystyrene for deeps and supers, but would still use wood for covers and wood/wire mesh for floors. I will add a couple of comments to what has been said so far: 1. Their added insulating value is of little to no benefit. Wood has an R factor of .5 per inch of thickness. (If that is not right, it is very close to it.) So the standard wood hive in the US has an R factor of less than 1. The hives offered now by Betterbee and Dadant are as good as they get, and only have an R factor of 3. While more than 200% better than wood, an R factor of 3 is nothing of any value in keeping out cold or heat. 2. I spent many days and hours asking how warm moist air would get out of these things, as they close up so tight. I know well that winters in Northern Europe are cold and dry, while for much of the US winters are cold and humid. I also knew that for most of Europe their winters are even more humid than our own. I could not understand why the warm moist air would not condense more than the wood hives. While I considered it bunk at first, I now believe the statement that the cut provided by the hand hold condenses the warm moist air so that the water runs down the side of the hive and out or through the bottom board. With an R factor of 3 for most of the box, and only .5 (or so) for the handhold area, the warm air has an area to condense before it cools at the top of the hive. With wood hives, the hand hold area might have an R factor of .1, compared to .5 elsewhere, so there is no place for the warm air to condense other than at the hive top. 3. They are so light they are wonderful, they take normal abuse with little to no damage, can be stacked 6-8 deeps high, and can easily be moved on trucks with tight strapping. I forget the load factor a hive will take (the weight that the hive sides will take before they crumble) but it is impressive and well beyond what would be involved with 4-6 deeps full on honey on top of a single brood nest. 4. The Kelley hives gave plastic a bad name in US beekeeping. However, these were not polystyrene but were either cast or injection molded with a different material. A classic case of plastic molders not understanding beekeeping, and beekeepers knowing nothing about plastics. I would not use polystyrene covers because a migratory cover or piece of 3/4" plywood is just as good at a fraction of the cost. Likewise, polystyrene bottom boards are just too expensive compared to alternatives. Will polystyrene equipment become prevalent in the US? In my opinion, it will depend almost entirely on price. Last year a polystyrene deep (in quantity) sold for $15, while the same dealer sold a wood hive (also in quantity) for $10. At that price difference, I can't imagine a serious hobbyist, sideliner, or commercial beekeeper going to plastic. Moreover, excellent quality wood hives are readily available elsewhere for around $5-$7. Competition or other factors may result in the prices for polystyrene and wood hives being much closer to one another. If that happens, I predict that 20 years from now those with fewer than 1,000 or so hives will largely use polystyrene. Frankly, it will take so long to change beekeepers with larger numbers that I am certain I won't be around long enough to see those using plastic. The exception would be if gasoline prices get up to European levels, in which case changes could take place pretty fast as the payback for pollinators should be almost immediate. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:49:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <006401c283a8$35104bc0$46ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob and Friends, Bob Harrison said, "My friends in Florida report that although SHB can be found in almost all hives the large numbers which actually lay the eggs which hatch quickly and slime the hive (which can take place between ten day inspections) come from the woods around the hives rather than a small infestation which slowly grows larger." On the Hive Beetles' laying of eggs, I have found egg masses laid between the supers. I can crack a super off and will see the eggs laid in a paper thin white sheet (egg mass) 1/4" to 3/4" long by 1/8" to 1/4" across. I understand the females have an ovipositor and poke their ovipositor in the cracks between the supers. The interesting thing is that often I will see the egg masses laid from the outside of the hive. This correlates with Bob's post about the Beetles in the woods (or at least Beetles outside the hive anyway), in that, the egg masses usually are deposited adjacent the edge of the super from which they were laid. The super's wall is 3/4" and the eggs will be either next to the outside or the inside. To further substantiate this, the bees often propolise the cracks from the inside which seems to seal off crack space and it would prevent a female from laying her eggs in that spot, from the inside. The newly hatched larvae are about 1/16" long, white in color with a brown head. They are fast crawlers. Bob Bassett rj.bassett@verizon.net Bob Bassett rj.bassett@verizon.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:36:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Polystyrene covers In-Reply-To: <011501c285da$fd728220$0e256118@nycap.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd wrote: "I would not use polystyrene covers because a migratory cover or piece of 3/4" plywood is just as good at a fraction of the cost. Likewise, polystyrene bottom boards are just too expensive compared to alternatives." And i would just like to point out how muc i love these polystyrene covers are since they can also be used as a bottom board. They have a rim around the edge, so they are in fact a bottom board at the same time (let me know if you are unaware of this, and i'll provide a picture for those interested). Here's a trick i learned from an experienced beekeeper over here. He keeps Carnolians, like myself, and obviously has had to find a way to tame their swarming tendencies. When you open up a colony and find that they are building queen cells, move all boxes over and put an empty box on the bottom board. Then put the cover on the new box, with the entrance facing in the other direction. On top of it, stack all the boxes and put on a new cover (which could be a simple and cheap piece of plywood or styrofoam). Now, the older bees will fly out the new entrance, gather nectar and pollen, and then return in the way they're used to. The bottom box will be filled with the older bees (and honey!) and the colony on top will be all younger bees. With the colony out of balance this way, they will not swarm. After a week, rejoin the bottom split with the old colony by simply removing the cover over the bottom box. The bees from the top colony will fly in to the back of the hive and walk around to the original entrance and then learn after a while that this is the right place to enter the hive. I understand that many of you keeps so many colonies (or bees that don't swarm) that you never check the brood chamber for swarm cells, but i just wanted to point out how useful the covers are, compared to a plywood board. Also, if this is considered common knowledge, feel free to ignore, correct or even insult me. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives >In Canada, Tegart Apiaries have devised a five-frame nuc box... It has hard plastic contact and lid surfaces and is stryo filled. Better Bee here in the U.S. sells them. They even look like picnic coolers. The top cover fits snugly and there is only one hole, about 1 inch, in the front of the box which is about a quarter of the way off the bottom. The opening, besides serving as an entrance, also is used for feeding. Syrup can be quickly pumped into the nuc through the opening. Since the entire inside is hard plastic, bees feed from the syrup at the bottom of the nuc. Since there is only the one opening at the front, the inside skin is hard plastic, and the cover fits tightly it does seem to me there would be problems with condensation, though. Yes? No? Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Polystyrene vrs wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I used one of the new Bee-Max hives being sold by Better Bee, Dadant, and I think at least another supplier or two this summer. Toward late summer/early fall here in the Anchorage area, there was enough condensation to form drops of water on the inside of the wooden inner cover that was used with the hive. Also, thought I’d pass this along--This is how one of the suppliers here in the U.S. describes their wooden hive bodies: “This is the year-round home for your bees. Here in the North country, a sturdy, good quality Hive Body is essential. Our Hive bodies are constructed from 7/8" thick eastern Pine (1/8" thicker than other companies) to ensure a safe secure home for your bees. (Makes for a much warmer winter home, as well!)” Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:29:42 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Polystyrene vrs wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I clipped this from one of Lloyd's posts... > If I were starting over, and know what I know now, > I would use only polystyrene for deeps and supers, > but would still use wood for covers and wood/wire > mesh for floors. As an ex-Equipment Manufacturer, I have been following the development of plastic bee equipment more closely than most. I agree with Lloyds statement and would add moulded feeders to his list. I may also consider lids/roofs/covers and mesh floors, because they could be arranged/designed to stack for tranport. If I were still in business I would strongly consider the course that Murray is following and as I learned more about the technology, would probably invest in the process more fully. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Slightly off the topic, Bee Folks, Among other classes, I have been teaching “Research Methods” classes at the university level, and discover how the Internet contributes to *mis- and dis –information* while trying to *help* the information-seekers, reminding me that “The road to hell is, indeed, paved with favors.” Although ever-increasing numbers of web sites, especially those affiliated with research universities and government-funded institutes, are credible, I QUESTION many other sources that claim this expertise or that authority. For example, I would not accept everything that’s been said even in this thread in blind faith. Type, for instance, *Canola oil* in Google.com and see the plethora of *scientific data* that loudmouth the harmful ingredients in it, let alone the blatant jingoism that insists “Canada” + “Oil” should be banned. A Joe Sixpack who happens to own a website can CLAIM that he SAW, flesh and blood, Elvis in a Shawnee garage, and an Elvis fan can quote this in his *research* paper in an extreme case. Is there any one lately abducted by a UFO? Any gynecological examination? I tend to believe, first, latest books, articles and papers, in that order, and finally a few good web sites. Simply put, if you are somebody in your area of concentration, you will present papers in national/international conferences, and when people in your area find your articles cogent, then you may be able to publish in a book form. This whole process is so arduous, especially since an *original* idea is really hard to come by these days, that not many can write a decent article, let alone books. Of course, I did not mention those *researches* where a private sector pours in money to bake a cake and eat it, too. Let us tread this thread light-footed. FWIW Hum ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garret Martin Subject: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? According to Paul Harvey, in one of his news briefs this week, powered sugar is an effective treatment for varrora mites. I was told that he stated that according to a beekeeper in Oregan that it actually kills mites. I did not hear this myself as I do not listen to him. As close as I can tell he probably broadcasted this on Tue or earlier. I had a person ask me about this, that is how I found out. So is anyone familar with this claim or this beekeeper?