From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:37:56 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F4348F90 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXJ010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0211B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 125958 Lines: 3081 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:18:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Humdinger & All, > > For example, I would not accept everything that's been said even in this thread in blind faith. I doubt a single person on BEE-L accepts everything found on BEE-L or the internet in blind faith. On BEE-L there are no agendas and only discussion. Each side of an issue puts their position forward and after awhile the subject stops. The person researching say "polystyrene vs wood" can go and read what has been said and decide for his or her self. The Bee-L archives contain opinions of over a thousand authors. Many which have done the things you say would command your attention such as writting books, abstracts etc.. Even the new beekeepers opinion is welcome on BEE-L and many new beekeepers have added excellent input. If I were to post that light colored clothing is best for the beekeeper I would not get a response from the list as most are in agreement. If however I posted that black is the best color for the bee suit I would get a huge response saying *not so!*. When researching the archives look carefully at the percentage which agree and disagree. If only one person is saying the black bee suit is best and there are ten posts which say light colored clothing is best you can assume light colored clothing works best. If I wrote a book and said "Always where black bee clothing" would the statement be correct just because the statement was in a book. I have seen a few statements (not many) in bee books which in my opinion are incorrect and I can prove my position by research. In fact I have pointed out two errors on bee-l by famous researchers in two of the best bee books ever written . In many ways BEE-L goes places a single author book never could. Sincerely, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Humdinger said: > Among other classes, I have been teaching "Research Methods" > classes at the university level... ...I would not accept everything > that's been said even in this thread in blind faith. Here's the corollary to Claude Shannon's basic "Information Theory" paper, as taught in the Computer Science/Electrical Engineering curricula ever since web sites started to appear on the 'net in the 1990s: 1) The number of web pages continues to grow exponentially 2) The number of verified facts continues to grow very slowly. 3) The solution is left to the student as an exercise. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:14:29 +0100 Reply-To: mats.andersson@ementor.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Correction (polystyrene covers) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to correct what i wrote yesterday. Someone wrote me a question that pointed out how unclear i had been. I wrote: "Here's a trick i learned from an experienced beekeeper over here. He keeps Carnolians, like myself, and obviously has had to find a way to tame their swarming tendencies. When you open up a colony and find that they are building queen cells, move all boxes over and put an empty box on the bottom board. Then put the cover on the new box, with the entrance facing in the other direction. On top of it, stack all the boxes and put on a new cover (which could be a simple and cheap piece of plywood or styrofoam). Now, the older bees will fly out the new entrance, gather nectar and pollen, and then return in the way they're used to. The bottom box will be filled with the older bees (and honey!) and the colony on top will be all younger bees. With the colony out of balance this way, they will not swarm." Now, the box that goes in the bottom (the new box) should of course have frames. The frames should also have drawn comb. Foundation will not do, since these older bees that return through the original entrance will not build comb. Sorry 'bout that. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 05:46:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allow me to add a few more to that astute observation, Jim: 4) The Internet does offer information, the electronic gossip of the age, whose values change in nanoseconds: consider the ever-changing numbers on the ticker tape. It occasionally offers “knowledge,” seldom “wisdom,” which used to be imparted by sages, under a palm tree, without a laptop. However, it does offer juicy gossips floating in the wind of the global village, a morsel of entertainment whole lot better than most talk shows I see on TV. 5) Under the pressure of publish or perish paradigm, not all books based on research are reliable, either. According to *The Prof. Scam,* only one paper out of ten, presented at any conference by an expert, may add new information to the existing body of knowledge. The rest, warm horse manure right out of the horse's mouth. 6) If one person clamors his authority over EVERY topic All THE TIME, consider him a Renaissance man who belongs to that medieval era, when life was much simpler and knowledge, myopic because in 21st century, it’s just impossible to be an expert on everything. (First 70's weather this fall in Shawnee, Oklahoma!) Hummmm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:33:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Blane White wrote: In tests done a few years ago in Florida SHB pupated and developed successfully in pure diatomacetous earth. They are amazingly tough beetles and the DE didn't seem to bother them at all Reply: Yes, this was brought up on OrganicBeekeepers during discussion, along with using elevated stands, special buildings built for bees, lime for adding to the soil,cement slabs, soapy water for drenching the soil, special stands for elevation, etc. In discussing, I think many where thinking that if we get the bees happy and healthy using small cell foundation, then if the secondary diseases and parasitic mites cannot hurt them, then the beetles will have a hard time also. So just let them be and work with survivorship in bees and don't unnecessarily change normal beekeeping routines. But it is hard for many beekeepers not to follow trends. Those that want to, can by all means do what they can afford to for more control, but it was brought up that IPM is just another interum route using soft treatments like soapy water,that maybe hinders reaching long-term full control without any help, that I think we all really want.Let the bees either live or die, in the end they will anyway. So just do it! Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:30:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bee Folks- Can anyone recommend a site that lists preferred "bee flowers" or families of flowers commonly visited by honeybees? Thanks, Inger Lamb Iowa, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:35:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? In-Reply-To: <200211080029.gA80RkE5008638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was told that he > stated that according to a beekeeper in Oregan that it actually kills > mites. Check out this PDF site.Monthly honey report(unbelievable)At the end of this months report is the info I think you are looking for.I just shook my head sadly as I read it. ---Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:14:27 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any beekeeper with only 50 hives who makes an extra $12,000 in one year deserves respect. :) http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134568901_beekeeper04m.html > Vanderpool's concept showed enough promise that the Oregon Department of > Agriculture gave him nearly $12,000 from a federal grant to develop a prototype. > The machine is a two-level vibrating screener that is powered by a 12-volt battery. > Made of stainless steel, the prototype is built on a two-wheeled trailer chassis. > Vanderpool, who keeps 50 hives on his property south of Salem... > "This isn't rocket science whatsoever," Vanderpool said... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:50:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Subject: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey prices seem to be holding up in the US market, although price increase and the volume of sales seems to be slowing. Richard Adee was our keynote speaker at the Alberta conference earlier this week. At one point in his talks, he mentioned that as many as 75 loads of Canadian honey had gone/are going into the US at $1.75, and he expressed pleasure that this importation was actually dragging the price =up=, not down. I see the honey reports are not reflecting this, but there =are= high prices available out there. A reminder: call the Mid US hotline for up-to-date prices and info: 1-763-658-4193 http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:08:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: At one point in his talks, he mentioned that as many as 75 loads of > Canadian honey had gone/are going into the US at $1.75, and he expressed pleasure that this importation was actually dragging the price =up=, not down. I know of no U.S. honey bringing 1.75 nor have any been reported on the Midwestern honey line. Our 2002 extra drums went for today's high U.S. price, payment at time of pickup and our drums back. I froze today's high price for a pickup in January for a friend packer. I think the price will drop by January as new crop Argentine honey should be in the U.S. by then. My friend will sing the blues if the price drops by a large amount in January ( I will if the price goes higher). I believe getting today's high price for a January pickup was a wise move on my part. Time will tell. My advice to those sitting on extra drums of honey is to sell as I believe (and several others) that the market has peaked. I also believe that when the new crop Argentine hits that the price will fall below a dollar a pound fast. I could be wrong so don't bet the farm on my opinion. Bob PS. I fell asleep in the bee truck at a bee yard today ( happens as you get older you can actually sleep beside the work) I dreamed I was going down the road in a new bee truck (with a CD player!). I woke up and was still in my old bee truck. Windfall profits this year will go to pay the bills for the last few years of below average returns. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:36:15 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there any open discussion about what is going to happen when the Chinese authorities get their act together and possibly flood the market with several seasons worth of honey. Is it considered likely that the previously antibiotic tainted crop will be diluted with subsequent crops and then put onto the world market? Would such a practice be possible to detect as having happened? If so, is there evidence of a will to try and pre-empt such an occurrence? Are buyers willing to trade in such material, knowing that volumes of chinese honey arriving onto the market will be strongly suspect in having been manipulated to cover up previous "mistakes"? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:09:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know of no U.S. honey bringing 1.75 nor have any been reported on the > Midwestern honey line. That's curious. I've been watching and not seen any either, although I heard of Argentine light amber at $1.71 a while back. I've heard people say that the packers are angry with US beekeepers for going ahead with the anti-dumping and paying more for imports than US honey. If so, they should be angry with Canadian beekeepers too, since Canada supplied some of the cost of production figures that were used and Canadian beekeepers also kicked in a fair bit of money in support of the cause. Packers also can tell a good story, and work hard to convince sellers to sell cheap. That's how they make money. There is very little profit in the actual packing and selling of honey. We have a lot of bottom feeders here in Canada, too. They work on fear, ingnorance and tolerance to convince beekeepers to sell for less than the market price, and succeed in talking the seller out of a few thousand dollars, as often as not. Of course every beekeeper whoi sells cheap drives the price down. Thus we are all very grateful, not envious -- when we hear that someone sold high. People who sell high keep the price up for all. > I > think the price will drop by January as new crop Argentine honey should be > in the U.S. by then. I think January is a bit early for the Argentine crop to be assured unless it is huge. In the past, I've had to wait another month or two to be sure of the size of the crop. It seems to me that it is usually late March or April, before we know for sure. For example, even now, the size of the Canadian crop is still not known for sure, since it came in late. November in Canada is equivalent to May in the southern hemisphere. As for the Argentine price, they seem to have smartened up and are charging as much or more than US beekeepers for delivery to the US when duties, taxes and transport are figured in. Good for them. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:36:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Prices Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, One can only give an opinion in answer to your questions. I am only a beekeeper which sells his surplus drums on the open market but because I do I have watched the market for a very long time. I can remember when honey sold for .09 U.S. a pound and a drum brought around $60 U.S.. > Is there any open discussion about what is going to happen when the Chinese authorities get their act together and possibly flood the market with several seasons worth of honey. There will be at the up coming conventions. Most dialog between beekeepers in the lounge. > > Is it considered likely that the previously antibiotic tainted crop will be diluted with subsequent > crops and then put onto the world market? I believe the tainted honey will be mixed with new crop but until I talk with those in charge of inspecting incoming honey I have not got a clue what the ratio might be for the antibiotic not to be detectable. > Would such a practice be possible to detect as having happened? How could you if the antibiotic is not found in the honey. If so, is there evidence of a will to try and pre-empt such an occurrence? There are those which want to protect the pure name of honey but I no of no way to stop the above. Possible scenario: The honey would appear at the port of entry. Agents would sample the product. If the antibiotic is not detected the honey would enter any country the honey was being shipped to. All which would be with the drums would be a bill of lading saying the number of drums and point of origin and the word "Honey" and the person the honey was being shipped to. > Are buyers willing to trade in such material, knowing that volumes of chinese honey arriving onto the market will be strongly suspect in having been manipulated to cover up previous "mistakes"? I believe you know the answer to the above! If the honey tests free of the antibiotic sales will soar with packers without questions because of *low price* . Unlike most of the Argentine honey most of the Chinese honey is very light in color. Excellent for blending with darker honey. My opinion: I buy other store brands from time to time to test the competition. I consider both Argentine and China honey inferior to our U.S. Clover and Alfalfa honey. The blends look good but taste bad (in my opinion). Many people have quit buying the store blended honey. Color is the most important consideration by the packer. I believe the U.S. consumption of honey would be double what it is now if we only sold U.S. produced honey in the U.S.. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? In-Reply-To: <200211080500.gA84wYE5013899@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit According to Paul Harvey, in one of his news briefs this week, powered >sugar is an effective treatment for varrora mites. I was told that he >stated that according to a beekeeper in Oregan that it actually kills >mites. I did not hear this myself as I do not listen to him. As close as >I can tell he probably broadcasted this on Tue or earlier. I had a person >ask me about this, that is how I found out. So is anyone familar with >this claim or this beekeeper? It was on Tuesday's newscast. A week of archives exists on www.PaulHarvey.com. However, here is the original report: SALEM BEEKEEPER’S GIZMO HAS HONEY INDUSTRY ABUZZ Monday, November 4, 2002 - - By The Associated Press SALEM, OREGON — A Salem beekeeper has invented a machine that uses powdered sugar instead of chemicals to rid bees of the deadly Varroa mite, a parasite wiping out hives around the country. The bees are sunk in a vat of powdered sugar, sent onto a vibrating screen and emerge free of the mite. Harry Vanderpool says a couple of pounds of powdered sugar and his invention — a machine he calls the Mitey-Victor — could help beekeepers get the upper hand against the mite. At stake are billions of dollars in the honey industry and in crops reliant on bee pollination. Scientists trying to stop the Varroa mite have long known that powdered sugar will cause the mites to release their grip on honeybees, although they're not sure why. But Vanderpool's mechanical extractor is something new, and it has the world of apiculture buzzing with speculation. The beekeeper's invention could provide an alternative to the chemical warfare that has been waged on Varroa mites for the past 15 years. Vanderpool's concept showed enough promise that the Oregon Department of Agriculture gave him nearly $12,000 from a federal grant to develop a prototype. The machine is a two-level vibrating screener that is powered by a 12-volt battery. Made of stainless steel, the prototype is built on a two-wheeled trailer chassis. "This isn't rocket science whatsoever," Vanderpool said. Bees and powdered sugar go in a hopper at the top. Mites and leftover sugar fall into separate drawers at the bottom. The Varroa mites dry up and die in less than an hour. Most of the bees fly out of the machine, and others are temporarily dazed and fall onto a conveyor that deposits them on the ground. Powdered sugar is routinely used to deliver antibiotics to bees because the insects will eagerly consume it. Ken Kite, a Stayton resident who keeps beehives as a hobby, let Vanderpool test his machine on his bees. He was impressed, as well as amused: "It just bounced these sugar-coated bees out into a pile." The bees were unharmed after their journey through the Mitey-Victor, Kite said, and subsequent tests indicated that few mites remained in the hives. Vanderpool, who keeps 50 hives on his property south of Salem, says his bees have passed through the Mitey-Victor with no ill effects. Similar screening devices are used in industries ranging from commercial bakeries to rock-crushing operations. But the Mitey-Victor has patentable features, and Vanderpool has been granted a provisional patent, which gives him a year to get a full-fledged patent. Varroa mites have spread across the nation since they were first detected here in 1987. Only Hawaii has escaped their onslaught. They have devastated wild-honeybee colonies and become an expensive nuisance for the estimated 200,000 beekeepers in the United States. Industry experts agree that chemicals, which were the first line of defense against the mites, have become less and less effective as mites adapted. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? Beekeepers: Well, I like the idea. It seems to me a large cardboard box with a false screened bottom would work as well. Pour the bees in, close the cover, roll the box around a few times, open the box to let the mite-less bees out fly back to the hive. $12,000 could purchase a whole bunch of boxes. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 19:16:20 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Honey Prices In-Reply-To: <3DCC4A6F.DD27C891@club-internet.fr> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Is there any open discussion about what is going to happen when the Chinese > authorities get their act together and possibly flood the market with several > seasons worth of honey. > > Is it considered likely that the previously antibiotic tainted crop will be > diluted with subsequent crops and then put onto the world market? Why would they need to?? At most there are two export years that will have had *some* impact from residue restrictions. Using information freely available on the web, the following can be deduced....... China produces around 204,000 tonnes PA. They export around 84,000 tonnes. i.e. domestic consumption is around 122,000 tonnes (10 yr averages to 2001 - FAO stats). Japan is one of their largest markets and has largely been unaffected. Japan imports around 90% of its honey imports (of 40,000 tonnes PA) from China i.e. around 35,000 tonnes. They therefore sell around 50,000 tonnes annually to their remaining markets, mostly EU (Germany and UK) and USA. The US did not impose immediate restrictions on Chinese honey, but some of the EU did in approx Oct 2001. This would have trimmed some of their sales to there for 2001 crop. Assume most of the sales from 2002 crop to EU stopped. Estimate therefore around 50,000 - 80,000 tonnes surplus in stocks unable to be sold because of residues at this time. This does not amount to "several seasons worth" as is only around half their annual domestic consumption (which appears to be rising). Assuming they have been able to stop the residues from getting into their honey in the current crop, then they only need to export current crop and domestically consume their "stockpile". The big issue will be *when* they are deemed able to export to the EU again. As soon as that happens I would anticipate they will be pricing agressively to gain back lost "share". Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asked, about the "tainted Chinese honey": > Is it considered likely that the previously antibiotic tainted crop will > be diluted with subsequent crops and then put onto the world market? "Likely" is a bit of an understatement. There are two scenarios that I can map out for you: SCENARIO 1 - "Feed The Hungry US Bees" Under the proposed rules offered by USDA APHIS for imports of bees, they also address bee-related products like wax, and "honey for bee feed": http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed.pdf (I have mentioned this so often recently that some may be sick of the subject, but please forgive me if I point out that requests for extension of the comment period for "Docket 98-109-1" can be e-mailed to "regulations@aphis.usda.gov" until Nov 18th, 2002, as can expressions of concern about the point explained here.) In "Section 322.33", these proposed rules address the importation of "Honey For Bee Feed", and require nothing more than certification by the shipper/exporter that the honey was: "Heated to 212 F (100 C) for 30 minutes" Yeah, suuuure.... that's the ticket! "Bee feed"... Several hundred metric tons of "bee feed"... Uh huh. SCENARIO 2 - "The Manchurian Candidate" Why would anyone pay the return shipping charges to the other side of the planet if they intended to "do the right thing", and scrap the consignment? I assure you such shipping charges would not be justified by recovery of their 55-gallon drums. (Jokes about Chinese honey drums can provide an entire evening's entertainment for any group of North American beekeepers, extending well after "last call" at the bar.) > Would such a practice be possible to detect as having happened? > If so, is there evidence of a will to try and pre-empt such an occurrence? Given that the antibiotic chemical at issue is one for which there is no "allowable tolerance" anywhere, one can smile and say four letters - "HPLC" (a High Performance Liquid Chromatograph, one of my favorite toys). Here is perhaps the only case where "parts per billion" and "parts per trillion" have an actual valid application in regard to honey, and stand little chance of being abused or misinterpreted, given that authorities now know exactly what "peak" to look for in the analysis "graph". Every country's domestic honey producers have a few months to make sure that port-of-entry inspectors find a nearby lab with such gear before more suspicious drums arrive. A test for a single specific contaminant can be completed in less time than required to develop a roll of film, and certainly in less time that is required for a shipment to "clear customs". But even if this is done universally and applied to all shipments in both scenarios, the most likely result would then be the sudden appearance of baklava as a new dessert sensation in China. So someone, somewhere >>WILL<< end up eating the tainted stuff, one way or another, and the only questions in either scenario are "who?", "at what price?", and "at what cost?". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey Prices Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >SCENARIO 1 - "Feed The Hungry US Bees" > > In "Section 322.33", these proposed rules address the importation of "Honey For Bee Feed", > and require nothing more than certification by the shipper/exporter that the honey was: > > "Heated to 212 F (100 C) for 30 minutes" > > Yeah, suuuure.... that's the ticket! > "Bee feed"... > Several hundred metric tons of "bee feed"... > Uh huh. > Even if it were not laced with interesting foreign substances, by heating it for so long it would not be good for feeding bees, especially overwintering bees. So you end up with the worst of both possible worlds- contaminated honey and overheated honey, both bad for bees. I am not even sure that the 30 minutes of boiling will kill some of the pathogens that might be present. Pressure cooking is usually required to be truly safe since it results in a higher temp. So make it the worst of three possible worlds. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, Allow me to be naïve and somewhat ideal here, but if you happen to be a manufacturer of polystyrene supers, not the old plastic that has proven itself unworthy, please consider the following challenges: 1. Produce them cheaper than the current price. (I hear your guffaws) 2. Put in multi-colors so that they don’t need to be painted for good. 3. Consider utilizing fungus-resistant, or germ [spore]-killing ingredient mixed in the polystyrene mix [this, I realize, could be dangerous, strengthening the microbes in the long run, however inadvertently]. 4. Screened bottom board and mouse guard should come pre-installed. 5. Punch in upper vent holes as well in the manufacturing process. 6. Make them biodegradable. (How? I dung no) 7. Consider the breathability in the composition of the poly mix. 8. Make them expandable/assembleable sideways so that one can easily expand the poly from a three-frame nuc box into three hundred-frame producer, thus eliminating heavy lifting. (Yup, a wishful thinking) 9. Make the poly more durable that a few bumps would not dent the structure. 10. Make them packable tightly for the migratory bees. 11. Add here some more points I slipped. Finally, when you have made good money on these futuristic supers, how about investing into a mobile irradiation chamber a sideliner can afford— so that he/she can take the AFB-infected poly boxes inside and ZAP them in no time? I am sticking my neck out here to say, on record, that such super supers will be actualized in America before I quit. Thanking and thinking all of you who chipped in your thoughts . . . Humdinger from Shawnee, OK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:56:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I have treated some of my hives with powdered sugar in the past. Using a plastic bottle with holes in the cap, I dusted each frame individually. It is very labor intensive. But at least the bees and the queen remained in the hive. I did try to use a bee blower to inject powdered sugar into the entrance and treat the whole hive without moving any frames. It was extremely messy. My method was relatively ineffective but probably pretty comical. Maybe I should have had someone tape it for one of those video shows :>). I am sure someone could come up with a portable, effective method to quickly treat a hive without tearing the hive apart. I do have some evidence that a screened bottom board may not be necessary as the mites cannot reattach themselves to the bees and quickly die when treated with powdered sugar. Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:40:07 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to James, Bill and others taking the time to read this mail, So, like the proposed future regulations dealing with imports of living bee material - the future importations of previously refused honey is a "time bomb" set certainly to explode - in the faces of honey producers that are working to expected and accepted quality levels. Not only is this going to be a slap in the face for those promoting clean material/ produce, but one that will again totally undermine the proper financial reward for producing such material. Maybe I shall be proved incorrect - but it, to say the least seems perverse that we, producers, are charged by controlling authorities with a work load to ensure that contamination does not occur (correctly in my opinion, via. quality ensuring programmes and systems, ). Whilst at the same time the same authorities who have the powers to control and refuse entry into the food chain of contaminated materials will most likely allow an obvious cheat of the system to take place in the near future. We, as beekeepers are aware of what is likely to be attempted, whilst also knowing that equipment exists to hinder it. So do the authorities. Packers also. It is to our great disadvantage that supply into the market of manipulated honey takes place. The authorities will cry that they have other priorities (at least until a loud enough noise is made) and from previous activity, packers will turn a blind eye. It has been stated that colour of honey is paramount. I ask why? It is not necessarily so in Europe - the consumer, for sure moves towards produce attractively presented - but based not just the colour. It is a red herring, one generated by the processors of honey - supply white honey as the customer only buys that. Only the customer is largely supplied with this and has little choice - self propagating situation. One that is brought about whilst cheap material is presented to the market. I suggest: That colour as a premise to quality is bunkum and should be dropped Facetious descriptions of honey type when not true be hammered in the courts. Having bought during 2002, honey labeled in the following manner: a. Pure Honey b. Pure natural US grade A c. Canadian Clover I consider the first statement as of limited acceptability. PURE honey! - Honey by international standards has to be pure. It is never labeled impure. The second, ignoring the first word - fine, but the latter as a cheat. Legally correct!, sure (or at least presumed to be) - but on opening and tasting - the only thing that I could discern was an extremely high percentage of Rape (Canola) honey. Nothing wrong with the honey, except it was being passed off as Clover. Other example is one pertaining to Acacia honey - from China, on sale in England. It was as solid as concrete and as white as a an arctic snow drift. Need say no more!! Please do not get me wrong - I have no quarrel with any country and its produce, nor in the manner it trades such material as long as it is done so in a proper manner What excites me, is the cheating / deceptive techniques used to sell - especially when it is detrimental to honest individuals. Anyway to conclude - I see a big cheat on the horizon - one that should be avoided. I suggest that the responsible authorities must be made aware that this will not be tolerated - and to ensure that this comes about, then much pressure must be placed on the present representatives of our associations. The conference season is nearly upon us - insist on discussion and motions to be voted upon. Stop a likely process that will again reduce all our incomes to a level of subsistence activity - and one that will allow tainted material to be passed on as "clean as nature" Packers beware! Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:51:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Subject: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I did try to use a bee blower to inject powdered sugar into the entrance > and treat the whole hive without moving any frames. ... > I am sure someone could come up with a portable, effective method to > quickly treat a hive without tearing the hive apart.... IMO, the next Big Thing will be oxalic acid evaporation. It has a good report. It does not seem to hurt bees, leave a residue in honey, or endanger the operator if used with care. It can be applied at a time of year when the bees and beekeeper are not occupied with important tasks, and costs 2c per colony per treatment. Several treatments a year should do the trick and to paraphrase, 'resistance is futile. All mites will be killed' on contact. P-O kindly showed how he does it at http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm. (Those are lovely pictures. I wonder how he gets them so clear). I have been wanting to see in person how this works, and I happened to stumble onto just what I am looking for, at the recent ABA convention. Cor Dewit made a slide presentation to the ABA convention showing how he converted the European evaporator to work with a mobile low pressure blower so he can blow the vapour into entrances of hives -- even after they are wrapped -- and avoid all the problems associated with pushing a hot (300 degrees) evaporator into a hive entrance. Hive entrances may have low clearance or be obstructed with flammable wax and dead bees. He has consented to my putting his pictures on the 'Net and as soon as I get the slides converted to digital, I'll post a URL. I gotta say, though, when I first saw the contraption, I thought to myself, "This is the dumbest looking thing I have ever seen". Stay tuned. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:57:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: polystyrene vs wood hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 4. Screened bottom board and mouse guard should come pre-installed. On the style Dadant sells the hive has a screened bottom board. Also when you use a three eighth entrance which comes on the hive you do not need a mouse guard. > 10. Make them packable tightly for the migratory bees. It would be possible to make a pallet to fit the poly hive and also make the clips. We make our own pallets and at times have made our own clips. Migratory lids could be made for the poly hive. Perhaps the standard migratory lid would work. The real problem comes when the pallets are stacked four skids high. Would the sides of the poly hive be able to take the weight. Wood takes the flexing but would the poly? A load loaded in Nebraska last week had to be returned to the bee yard and three skids removed as the tractor trailer was over gross. 80,000 pounds in the max gross and 420 hives the normal amount shipped. The beekeeper would have liked to look through the around 300 hives sitting in the holding area and found a few light skids and sent a full load but because the trucker did not regularly haul bees and was in a hurry (what trucker is not) all the beekeeper could do is pull the skids and let the trucker be on his way. Beehives are heavy. I am sending my bees to a warmer climate this year. I weighed several hives which weighed 140 pounds in two hive bodies. It is possible that the bottom skid on a stack of four skids could have approx. 1680 pounds of weight on top (560 per skid ). The weight would be split between the four bottom hives and could be as high as 420 pounds per bottom hive. The flexing of the top three skids going down the road might add to the problem. We also staple netting at times to the hives which we could not do with poly. I do not know if the poly could handle the weight. I do know the danger if those bottom sides gave way on a U.S. highway. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:52:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It has been stated that colour of honey is paramount. > I ask why? Because most honey from Argentina would be considered a bakery grade (in my humble opinion) but when mixed with water white Acacia from China you get a wonderful looking honey for the shelf. Looks good but tastes weird. (in my opinion). many times smells like was strained through dirty socks ( I am having entirely too much fun with this post!) The big packers always command the low price on the shelf. The low price always sells the most honey. Many buyers think all honey is the same and tastes like the blended honey. Only when they buy a bottle of real U.S. Clover honey (unmixed) do their eyes open wide. The U.S. big packers have sent me plenty of customers. The big packers have fought regulations concerning single source honey and origin on labels because single source honey makes their product seem inferior. Bob Ps. I love the big packers label. "product of China, Argentina, USA, and several other countries" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:51:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: bee flowers Since no one is responding, let me venture to say that in Oklahoma, two best flowering plants for the bees are 1)Buffalo Alfalfa and 2) Vitex, both of which bloom nearly year-around although in a drought the latter seems to suffer more than the former. Please note that not all alfalfa variety produce nectar and similarly, not all Vitex variety produce nectar, either. However, I heard an old friend of mine saying that an acre of the right vitex variety will support hundreds of colonies. FWIW, Hum ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: > a. Pure Honey > b. Pure natural US grade A > c. Canadian Clover > The second, ignoring the first word - fine, What, that tacky trick works even in France? I get a laugh from the bottles that feature a large badge sort of thing in red, white and blue saying "USDA Grade A". Looks like a WWII aircraft insignia for a fighter plane. But in much smaller print? The usual statement that the honey "may come from" a list of countries longer than the list of members of the UN Security Council. > but the latter as a cheat. Legally correct!, sure (or at least presumed to be) - > but on opening and tasting - the only thing that I could discern was an extremely > high percentage of Rape (Canola) honey. Nothing wrong with the honey, except > it was being passed off as Clover. Here you may have the old "51%" problem. The "predominant" nectar source is what goes on the label, even though the taste of the "minority component" may overpower the "majority". Or perhaps it may be a colloquial expression to call Canola "Canadian Clover". I have seen a Massey-Ferguson tractor included in a list of "recreational vehicles" offered at a Canadian auction, so there may be extreme cultural differences at work here. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:44:46 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I think that your comment - "Many buyers think all honey is the same and tastes like the blended honey. Only when they buy a bottle of real U.S. Clover honey (unmixed) do their eyes open wide." is one of our fundamental problems. Apart from worthy local publicity and personal contacts - the general public still have not yet been informed about the diverse types and tastes of honey. This lack by the main conditioners and packers again shows that there is a wish to ensure a market for low priced, generic, bland honey mixes. Governed by their strangle hold wish to continue in the buying up of under priced honey. There is a place for neutral tasting honeys, with a rape (or equivalent) base. But the price paid for these honeys should reflect the true production costs with an extra ensuring reasonable profit . But when these honeys are made to compete with below standard material, by being sold at near equivalent prices - the buyers are wagging the dog too much. Present prices indicate that the previous market was keeping the prices artificially low. It will be interesting to see if the honey sales have collapsed as predicted due to the present "excessive prices" being charged by producers. I humbly suggest that Packers are not really proud of their produce - willing to deal in the lowest grade material on the market, then selling it off as a true example of what the average producer sends in. They are using the good name built up over many centuries by beekeepers - squeezing it to death, - taking us down with them. Customers will catch on, slowly stop buying and ask why have they been taken for a ride again. Honey in cereals is supposed to be a natural plus with which to feed our children. Care to investigate the honey that is used! We will be the target for a lot of criticism for allowing it to happen. Look what happened in UK over beef and BSE, similar egs. for high priced foie gras in France - being stretched by cheap contaminated material. Fruit, so good for us - push Gov'ts - except it tastes like it has never been near a plant in the open air. Therefore, people eat less than what they know is good. They refuse to waste cash. Looks nice though!! Does it take much to understand why Europeans don't want hormone injected meat, GMO vegetables and fruits or cereals. They are no longer trusting science or the big companies that retail our food. Trouble is that only the relatively wealthy can afford to opt out (and are doing so!) - watch caddies in a supermarket. These are the people who buy our honey, and are realising that the good honey bargain is not so. The less well off are not habitual buyers of honey, so once the good will of the traditional consumers (an increasingly aged % of the population) is a dead duck - who is going to buy honey, as we will all be tarred with the same brush - purveyors of poor quality produce. I ask - how many of the packers would have shopped the Chinese suppliers of the contaminated honey, I suggest that with their ability to detect contamination, they would have been aware! It was up to the authorities to pull the plug on the trade. The same authorities must be made aware and ready to prevent an influx of predicted "cleaned " honey. They have the power and capacity to do it, as long as we press as hard as the packers will press for a resumption of low grade material. More comments welcome - esp. if you disagree with me!! Any possibility for co-operative buying of true honey to be sold as unblended and blended - then properly represented for what it is - no weasel worded labels. With a long term publicity strategy stating what grades of material are on the market. Hence, starting to educate the consumer. A true packer proud and clear with it! Regards Peter Central France - Home of demonstrating beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:25:11 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, The honey was a present from a honey packer in Canada, straight off the line and was still hand hot in temperature. A gesture that I appreciated. But evenso......... With the 51% regulation - take a fruit juice, call it true fruit or something that at the present allows a weasel worded description, add 51% of the relative expensive juice e.g.. Pineapple, then add 49% of a juice that destroys / covers the taste of what you are trying to sell as the finished product . Only works if your customer is dumb, unknowing etc. and the packer doesn't care about their retail philosophy. Are you sure that the Massey-Ferguson tractor didn't have a radio wired to its structure - they are often attached with a bit of baler twine under the 3 pin hitch. Any way - life is so stressful for most that a ride in the open air on such a machine is considered as recreational - Disney have plans for a fleet to be used to move clients around a model they are constructing of the countryside. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:52:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and Everyone, Having been a commercial beekeeper I can understand some of the factors operators with thousands of hives face when confronted with increasing treatment resistant mites. As treatments require more toxic chemicals used more frequently, it seems that another approach is needed if honey's image as a healthful product should be maintained. Personally I am in the small cell camp but won't be that drum here. Small cell takes lots of time and expert bee husbandry. It not an easy, quick fix which is what some commercials desperately need right now. There is some evidence that bees can develop resistance to the organic acid treatments over time. But the use of oxalic acid vapor might provide a necessary stop gap measure so the big guys can produce a quality product and make a profit while implement a long term solution. Maybe even small cell? Tap, tap. Well just a couple of beats :>) Thanks for info and looking forward to those pictures Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:11:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Murrell wrote: >There is some evidence that bees can develop resistance to the organic >acid treatments over time. > Could you cite it? I have been looking for something like that but have not found it to date. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:10:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen DeHond Subject: powdered sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read that powdered sugar should never be used in hives as it contains flour and will clump and cause problems, I'm sorry I cannot find the source of this information but I would appreciate some opinions on this. Thank you Karen DeHond upstate NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DONALD M CAMPBELL Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation Has anyone considered combining this oxalic acid treatment with the FGMO treatment with a fogger? I don't want to open up "old wounds" but Mineral oil treatment with the fogger only takes about 5 seconds per hive. I've been using it for the first time this year and have not had a mite problem. Its said to kill the tracheal mite also. I wonder if you could dissolve the acid in the mineral oil and weather it would damage the fogger? It would be a lot quicker then the vapor method. (A paper by Dr. P. Rodriguez about FGMO treatment can be read on www.beesource.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:10:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've tried to get Vitex seeds to germinate and just don't seem to have any luck. I have one that managed to come up, but is pretty sickly. Cotton is a great nectar plant. Makes a very good white honey. West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:35:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Prices - as an indicator of quality Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > I ask - how many of the packers would have shopped the Chinese suppliers of the contaminated honey, The packers and importers spent a huge sum of money fighting the antidumping. Very little tarriffs have been paid. Over 95 million pounds were imported into the U.S. during the first 6 months of 2002. (Bee Culture pg.11 Nov. 2002.) The flow came from Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Chile, Australia, Mexico, Paraguay, Uruguay and every other country which happens to *border* China and Argentina and doesn't have tarriff restricitons. > It was up to the authorities to pull the plug on the trade. > The same authorities must be made aware and ready to prevent an influx of predicted "cleaned " honey. In the U.S. war on drugs they *say* they catch 10% coming in. How much contaminated honey has allready been moved into your respective countries and is on shelves? Did the above authorities test every drum entering your country for the illegal antibiotic or only shipments directly from China? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:52:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: allen > > IMO, the next Big Thing will be oxalic acid evaporation. It has a good > report. It does not seem to hurt bees, leave a residue in honey, or > endanger the operator if used with care. It can be applied at a time of > year when the bees and beekeeper are not occupied with important tasks, and > costs 2c per colony per treatment. Well, I wouldn't bee all that optimistic about it yet. The research done is mostly in central Europe with milder climate than ours. What has been shown is that treatment differs up here compared to lover latitudes (in trickling oxalic solution). So far I don't believe we should hope for more than 90% efficiency, that means other treatments have to be applied too during spring/summer to keep the mite numbers below dangerous levels. Another treatment of oxalic in spring will not do much good as almost all mites are in capped cells and will not be affected by it. To remove drone brood or something else is needed too. Remember it's not the mites that's the real problem, it's the different virus it's a vector for. Important for wintering is that bees going into winter are not raised in a colony with heavy virus infection. Those bees will have smaller chance to survive through winter. So what is important is the status of the colony at the time the winter bees are produced, august-september before any oxalic treatment is possible. The longer the summer, the smaller the chance autumn oxalic treatment will be enough. Another thing about vaporizer is it's time consuming. It takes several minutes for each hive, and then the hive should be kept closed for some time to allow oxalic to spread inside. When comparing to trickling sugar syrup with 3,2% oxalic it's a big difference. Doesn't matter much for the smaller beekeeper, but is important for many bigger operations. I realize this after done both treatments. Hoped to get some figures to compare methods, but winter is early and bees in tight cluster so I doubt there will be much info from my experiment until next autumn when I'm going to start earlier. Unless I can get something from the wintering. Oxalic like other toxic substances will affect the bees wintering. There might be some measurable difference in the spring. Time will show... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:17:44 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby said: > In discussing, I think many were thinking that if we get > the bees happy and healthy using small cell foundation, > then if the secondary diseases and parasitic mites cannot > hurt them, The above assumes that cell size: a) Has an impact on bee health b) Has impact on disease c) Reduces the incidence of mites ...but the "field tests" are ongoing on these points, so one can either participate in the effort, or wait for more reports from those who do. No need to waste time arguing with someone like me, who has yet to even think about trying it. > then the beetles will have a hard time also. But the line above REALLY confuses me. How is cell size going to have any impact on small hive beetles? Are you saying that a larger bee population will be able to control SHB, and assuming that a "more healthy hive" results in a larger total population? If so, why has no one in SHB infested areas reported that their strongest hives have been able to resist SHB? Can anyone fill in some detail on how cell size might affect SHB? Note that I had no comment on "making bees happy". I'll believe that my bees are "happy" the day that I see them sitting on the landing board reading the Bible. ...from the book of "Bee-Attitudes", of course. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:25:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark wrote: Cotton is a great nectar plant. Makes a very good white honey. I would have to agree with Mark but will talk a bit about Cotton before those BEE-L beekeepers in areas of Cotton get all their hives loaded up and off to the Cotton fields. Cotton honey production is a tough game. The beekeeper has to be able to move his beehives at times on short notice and pesticide kills are often. I would NEVER sit hives on permanent locations within a half mile of cotton fields unless I was sure the Cotton field owner was responsible with his spraying program. A government program called the Boll Weevil Eradication program is being started in many areas. Missouri is one of those areas. The effort of the program requires all farmers to spray frequently, using federal funding for the cost of chemicals. In Texas prior to 1995 many Cotton growers had lost entire cotton crops despite as many as 25 spray applications. In 1995 the Texas growers started the eradication program and things have improved. Sprays and bees only work when everyone follows the rules. The largest beekeeper in Missouri (8,000 hives) is locked in a bitter dispute over dead hives caused by planes of the USDA Boll Weevil Eradication program. My opinion was asked by the person involved in the dispute for the USDA. when I was at the National Small Farm trade Show a couple weeks ago. I suggested the program pay the beekeeper and use another crop duster company and move on. The program is willing to reimburse the beekeeper but they are way apart on the amount. Will most likely end up in court. What happened was the beekeeper had many hives on the Cotton field producing honey. The flowers were in bloom and the field full of bees. The crop duster sprayed the bees and also sprayed the hives themselves. The spray was found wet on the top of the hives. The beekeeper was not notified spraying was to take place (as per federal law) nor was the spaying done at night (or dusk) when the bees were back in the hive. Instead the spraying was done in the middle of the day. If you dumped poison in my livestock water and killed my livestock you would have to pay for damages. Why do beekeepers have such a hard time getting reimbursed for negligent Arial spraying? Bob Ps. Alfalfa has similar spray problems (couple sprays a season) but makes a wonderful honey although pure alfalfa is amber to light amber at best in our area. The light amber is usually mixed with Clover. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:29:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Clifford Taylor Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was wondering if anyone has use sludge as a supplement fertilizer on their crop land and other surrounding hays field and has had any problems with their bees, disease, Honey production. Cliff Taylor Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:41:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <01C288F6.3B174BB0.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James Fischer wrote: But the line above REALLY confuses me. How is cell size going to have any impact on small hive beetles? Are you saying that a larger bee population will be able to control SHB, and assuming that a "more healthy hive" results in a larger total population? If so, why has no one in SHB infested areas reported that their strongest hives have been able to resist SHB? Reply: A strong hive on big comb is not necessarily a larger total population that is also more healthy. In the beginning, the honeybee colony is in perfect health without diseases, pests and parasites, with final stage the scavengers (beetles here) coming in for the cleanup on the kill. Then through the combination of placement on improper sized brood combs for localized gergraphic regions, and improper nutritional needs over extended periods of time, the colony develops the loss of this healthy condition. (here mongrel complex matings come into play also worsening and speeding up the collapse). Stress factors weaken the honeybee's natural defense system inherent within the hive. Here besides improper cell size giving way to improper diet and improper outbreeding, beekeepers also compound the problem with improper sequencing of combs stressing colonies further creating severe stress upon division of labor which enhances disease and pest and parasite problems and the circle is compounded and worsened. So yes, placement back onto small natural cell size within the spectrum of natural sizing mostly 4.7mm to 4.9mm top tolerance here for gaining variability on the lower end will help to regain balance for a healthy diet, with better outmating/breeding and yes, more bees for better division of labor and force enough to keep problems under control. You must remember that mites and diseases are not the problem, nor the advanced stages with scavengers (beetles). They are merely the advanced stages of an artificially caused problem, all going back to bigger is better ideas that have wrecked havoc with our honeybees. The stress resulting from generally accepted beekeeping practices of artificial enlarged combs to extreme, artificial nutrition, and chemicals of various treatments and dopes repeated over many years, is the real killer of domesticated colonies, especially when sequenced improperly not matching the feral. Placement back onto proper sized small cell size and proper sequencing (to fine tune the last stress conditions as much as possible) helps to reverse this and bring the colony back into balance, clearing up problems. But it is not a snap your finger thing. It's takes time and regression to go back. But once accomplished, you end up with happy healthy bees with pests and parasites and scavengers not bothering them and accompanying secondary diseases which then drop to 1-2% for all combined. ONe last thing. As far as I know beetles like mites have been associated with beehives all over for years. So look forward to more types getting involved as things worsen getting more out of tune with added dopings! Sincerely, Dee A.Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby offered: > In the beginning, the honeybee colony is in perfect health > without diseases, pests and parasites, with final stage the > scavengers (beetles here) coming in for the cleanup on the kill. This description differs widely from what is being reported by those who have small hive beetle problems. SHB are not reported to overwhelm just the "weak and sick" colonies, they are said to overwhelm any and all colonies. I've yet to hear anyone say that "strong colonies can repell SHB". SHB are not acting as "scavengers" like wax moths - they are a unique event, apparently independent of how one manages one's bees. (A lack of attention to honey house and equipment storage housekeeping does seem to be a way of helping SHB, though.) > Then through the combination of placement on improper sized > brood combs for localized gergraphic regions, and improper > nutritional needs over extended periods of time, the colony > develops the loss of this healthy condition. (here mongrel > complex matings come into play also worsening and speeding > up the collapse). Stress factors weaken the honeybee's > natural defense system inherent within the hive. Regardless of one's view of size of brood combs, and their relationship to the other factors listed, what does ANY this have to do with SHB? > Here besides improper cell size giving way to improper diet > and improper outbreeding, More claims about cell size phrased as if they were facts, but again - what does this have to do with SHB? > beekeepers also compound the problem Which problem? Apparently not SHB. > with improper sequencing of combs stressing > colonies further creating severe stress upon division of > labor which enhances disease and pest and parasite problems > and the circle is compounded and worsened. The jury is still out on those claims, but I'm still looking in vain for some hint as to the relationship to SHB. > So yes, placement back onto small natural cell size within > the spectrum of natural sizing mostly 4.7mm to 4.9mm top > tolerance here for gaining variability on the lower end > will help to regain balance for a healthy diet, with better > outmating/breeding and yes, more bees for better division > of labor and force enough to keep problems under control. Perhaps the above relates to SHB. Are you are saying in the above that: a) A strong healthy colony can keep SHB under control? b) That no such colonies currently exist in Florida or other areas being infested with SHB? c) That such colonies can only exist on small-cell comb? If so, let's get some existing small-cell colonies to Florida ASAP, put them in an SHB-infested yard, and see what happens! Any takers? > You must remember that mites and diseases are not the > problem, I disagree very strongly with the line above. Invasive exotic diseases and pests that get across the oceans ARE the problem. They were not here before. They are now. The bees have not changed much in the past century or so, and neither have beekeeping practices. Now a number of very smart people are working hard to change both. Why? Simply to keep the bees alive long enough that one can make a profit "keeping bees", or at least actually keep the bees alive. Traditionally, (from roughly the beginning of recorded time until a few decades ago) a person of average intelligence and even below-average work ethic could "succeed" at beekeeping (in other words, keep his or her hives alive with a high degree of certainty) using nothing more than a few simple rules of thumb. Not much more complicated than having a vegetable garden. Even when force-fit into ever-more ridiculous "patent beehives", in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the bees thrived. Even when "managed" using approaches that are now known to be not only wrong, but actually counter-productive, the bees still did just fine, proving that they are highly adaptable creatures. In a post-invasives environment, I need a decent microscope, a large supply of thick books, a reasonable grasp of chemistry, and even petri dishes just to DIAGNOSE the diseases/pests bees are MOST likely to have due to their "universal" nature. The unusual stuff I must send off to a team of highly-skilled specialists with a bigger lab. I'm not going to blame any of this on "foundation cell size". I'm gonna blame it on the well-known fact that for every invasive pest and disease we have, someone screwed up royally, and BROUGHT IT HERE. > One last thing. As far as I know beetles like mites have > been associated with beehives all over for years. Mites are not "like" beetles at all. Mites and beetles are in two completely different orders. Mites are in the order "Acari", and beetles in the order "Coleoptera". (That's another thing about "modern beekeeping" - one needs to brush up on one's long-forgotten prep-school Greek and Latin just to understand what is being said at one's local beekeeping club meetings these days!) But we were not talking about other living things that one might just happen to find in some beehives as an interesting sidenote to some entomologist, we are talking about things that drive most rational people to give up keeping bees. SHB is just the latest invasive species doing exactly that. And the way things are looking with SHB, I think I had better renew my explosives permits for next year. I'm thinking napalm. Trim the weeds and roast the SHB larave, all in one easy step. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:55:00 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: powdered sugar I think that you need to distinguish between what we would know as icing sugar - this contains an anti-caking agent, trisodium phosphate - and powdered sugar, i.e. sugar that has been crushed to a fine powder and contains no additives. Incidentally, icing sugar is unsuitable for feeding bees as the trisodium phosphate will not dissolve in water and leaves a thick sludge in the feeders. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk from: "Karen DeHond" > I have read that powdered sugar should never be used in hives as it contains > flour and will clump and cause problems, I'm sorry I cannot find the source > of this information but I would appreciate some opinions on this. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:36:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: powdered sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Incidentally, icing sugar is unsuitable for feeding bees as the trisodium > phosphate will not dissolve in water and leaves a thick sludge in the > feeders. I was always told the same thing as Peter is saying. Years ago I had a contract to buy all the salvage sugar at the largest freight salvage in the U.S.. They said they had 50 bags of sugar for me on two skids. When I picked up the sugar I found the sugar was Domino brand icing sugar in perfect bags. I called Domino in New York and talked to a chemist. I called Beltsville. I called other beekeepers. I fed the sugar in late spring. I had no trouble mixing with water. There was no sludge. and the bees took the syrup a gallon at a time in one day. I was told by Beltsville not to winter on icing sugar and feed only when the bees are flying. I also found two other beekeepers which had fed icing sugar on a large scale without problems. I tried to resale the sugar first (at a profit) but to no avail. I did sell a 50 pound bag to a neighbor lady. I wonder if she has used up 50 pounds of icing by now? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:16:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello BeeKeepers- Yes there was very little response to my request for bee flower references, not too much of a surprise as I had already spent quite some time looking around the 'net before I posted my request- and had been unsuccessful in finding an organized summary of preferred bee flowers. There are a lot of anecdotal flower discussions and small summaries tho, and since I was trying to find info for a short lecture on the subject, I went to the effort of making a list of flowers mentioned anywhere as bee-ing attractive to bees, and then looked for common plant families. This is what I found: Plant families with many species of interest to bees, or dependent on bees for pollination: Rosaceae (apple, peach, berries etc.) Fabaceae (legumes) Liliaceae (lilies, onion etc.) Brassicaceae (mustards) Asteraceae (sunflowers & relatives) Apiaceae (umbelliferae- dill, caraway etc.) Curbitaceae (melons and squashes) Plant families with several species favored by bees: Ericaceae (heathers, blueberry, cranberry) Lamiaceae (mints) Solonaceae (potato, tomato, pepper) Malvaceae (cotton, okra) Lauraceae (avocado, spicebush) My lecture is happily in the past, but if anyone has any additions to this list I would very much enjoy receiving them- Thanks Inger Lamb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: bee flowers I would rate Solanaceae fairly low in terms of honey bee preference, and I would add Myrtaceae, which includes the eucalyptus. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:08:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Comments: cc: Ben Waggoner In-Reply-To: <20021111034141.31488.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and Friends, Dee wrote," In the beginning, the honeybee colony is in perfect health without diseases, pests and parasites, with final stage the scavengers (beetles here) coming in for the cleanup on the kill." I must very respectfully disagree that SHB are "scavengers" at all. In my opinion, the Beetles are prime predators of honeybees. They will kill a perfectly robust hive by eating it alive. I have seen it too many times. I will say that some hives are better able to withstand an attack. I have seen this too. It seems to be a matter of the degree of infestation and the ability of the bees to control them. I just lost my biggest hive. The hive swarmed and the Beetles tore it to pieces, in the aftermath. I will agree that strong hives stand a better chance against the beetle, but strong hives alone are not the answer. The Beetle will kill your strongest hive if the bees there don't know how to deal with the Beetle. I believe that we must breed bees which are able to live with the beetle. I am 100% on board with Dee on that issue. All the chemicals in the world have not brought control like selective breeding has. Dee's operation is proof of that fact. All kinds of pests seem to be able to overcome the chemicals. Roach, ant and mosquito sprays are hot sellers in Florida. We still have roaches, ants and mosquitoes. We have to learn how to live with them. In essence, we selectively breed our own pests by killing the weakest ones with chemicals and allow the strong pests to survive! We only breed from the strongest pests! The strong, chemical resistant pests are the product of our own "selective breeding program". That is the absolute opposite of what we want! The Lusbys have been breeding bees which are able to withstand the pressure of the mites and other pests. By whatever means, their bees survive "amongst the enemy". They say the small cell size is the answer. They have been succeeding with small cell size, how can I argue with that. I am really intrigued with it, to be honest. Dee also has bought into Housel Positioning. I like that idea too. I'm thinking of building some top bar hives to allow the bees to live in a more natural hive. Whatever is working without chemicals is good for me. The wild hives survive without chemicals. Ours can too. We are going to have to have bees which will survive the Beetle. If all our hives died out, then we will be looking for the feral hives to get started again, huh? They don't use chemicals to control the Beetle in Africa, do they? The bees control this "minor" pest there, don't they? The Beetle is a major pest here, because our bees aren't used to them. We are down to our last hive here now, because of the beetles. We will make splits from this hive to build back up. The queens will mate in the open with drones from feral hives and from this hive, and we will continue to build up from the survivors. I will put out some swarm traps around a feral hive I have known about for years and we may start to enjoy our bees again, without all the worry about chemicals. We will worry about honey production when we find bees which will survive the pests, in this area (west central Florida). The chemicals may be useful in starting splits and nucs, but that's about it. I may not be absolutely right, but, that's the way I see it, for now. Bob Bassett - Tired of chemical controls and treatment intervals ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:44:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: powdered sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all A coffee bean grinder makes excellent powdered sugar from ordinary granulated, and a liquidiser attachment for a food mixer will make larger quantities... Watch out for powdered sugar, It can easily explode. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:46:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The first thought that came to my mind on this subject is one that was expressed by James Fischer already: The easy way to test the hypothesis of whether healthy happy bees on small cell foundation will be resistant to SHB would be to take some of those colonies to an area of Florida where SHB is worst and see if they survive. Anything else is just supposition until SHB and these colonies exist in the same geographical area. It may be, though, that there are many environmental factors which will also affect the survivability of SHB, and they may not do well in dry desert areas, so the real reason the bees in those areas may not be affected is climate rather than bee management practices. Again, all supposition until we do the experiments to show what the actual factors are. Layne Westover, College Station Texas (formerly from Missouri, the "Show-Me State") ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:15:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Coldiron Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Cotton honey production is a tough game. The beekeeper has to be able to > move his beehives at times on short notice and pesticide kills are often. > > I would NEVER sit hives on permanent locations within a half mile of cotton > fields unless I was sure the Cotton field owner was responsible with his > spraying program. > > A government program called the Boll Weevil Eradication program is being > started in many areas. Missouri is one of those areas. Reply: Bob is absolutely correct! It's a tough game. I've had a lot of problems with the Texas Boll Weevil Eradication program spray planes. However, I think they'll be finished next year. My bees sit in a wooded area with cotton fields on all sides within a half mile. For this reason, I've limited the number of hives and focused on equipment and buildings. We have two seasons here. Spring with wildflowers and mesquite then late Summer for the cotton. The potential for better than average honey crops is good, so I'll go ahead and take the risk. West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:40:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill, Thomas Moser, on the BiologicalBeekeeping Group at Yahoo Groups- has indicated that European beekeepers have been experiencing failures in some areas using organic acids in spite of more frequent treatments. It is my understanding that this will be one of the topics at an upcoming meeting. in Germany. More info should be available then. I will cross post any of it if necessary. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:56:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: powdered sugar Bob Perhaps there are different types of icing sugar. Maybe Domino is different. Maybe US is different from UK. Some years ago I bought a ton of waste icing sugar for our association and it was a disaster, leaving a thick white sludge in the feeders. Caveat emptor - as always! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- I had no trouble > mixing with water. There was no sludge. and the bees took the syrup a > gallon at a time in one day. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:25:11 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: powdered sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Icing sugar here in France usually contains starch or silica as the anti - caking additive. I have used the latter in small quantities with no apparent ill effects. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:29:37 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Comprehensive list presented in " A manual of Beekeeping" -E B Wedmore. Published by Bee Books New and Old ISBN 0 905652 01 0 A little dated but still useful in my opinion. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:31:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar for Varrora Treatment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone simply tried an old fashioned hand-pump garden crop duster with powdered sugar? I've used them often in the garden with powdered rotenone - they work very well with fine powders. Obviously you'd want to use a new one. Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:21:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just received an oxalic acid vaporizer from Heilyser Tech. in Canada. I'll be trying it out within a week. This model uses an air mattress pump to deliver vapor, rather than directly heating in the hive. Heat source is a torch. Looks very simple to use - the manufacturer insists on about 2-3 minutes per hive, with no risk of heat damage within hive, eliminating the need for extra hardware for polystyrene hives. I'll provide pics and observations after I try it. Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inger, Try these sites: http://www.mearns.org.uk/mrssmith/bees/flowerlist.htm http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/book/ I've also got a book by British beekeeper Owen Myer with a fairly detailed list of nectar plants. Most of it is valid here in the Northeast U.S. as well, although the dates are a bit off. Some that are listed as minor flows are quite major here (like goldenrod) and vice versa. * denotes pollen source only. Happy reading, Todd. ------------------------------------ Major Plants: April: Plum Damson Cherry Pear May: Apple dandelion hawthorn sycamore June: blackberry field beans raspberry sainfoin white clover July: bell heather blackberry lime (basswood/linden) white clover willowherb August: bell heather blackberry ling heather red clover (though I don't believe that A. Mellifera uses red clover in the U.S.) willowherb Sep/Oct Ling heather mustard Minor Plants: Feb/March *alder almond butter burr celandine coltsfoot crocus *elm gorse *hazel *poplar prunus snowdrop violet willow winter aconite *yew April: almond *ash berberis box coltsfoot crab apple currants dead nettle gooseberry gorse laurel maple willow May: *beech bilberry bluebell mustard broom forget-me-not gorse holly horse chestnut *oak *plantain thrift wallflower June: bindweed catmint charlock cranesbill jacob's ladder lucerne melilot firethorn red clover thyme vetch viper's bugloss white byrony *wild rose July: bergamot borage cornflower cranesbill figwort flax hogweed hollyhock hyssop knapweed lavender mallow *meadowsweet mignonette mullein *poppy privet ragwort red clover sage sweet chestnut August: balsam borage chicory golden rod mallow marjoram *meadowsweet mint mullein sunflower purple loosestrife sage sea lavender thistle white charlock Sep/Oct: balsam gorse ivy michaelmas daisy sea lavender thistle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have increased my prices in response to the new market conditions. I am selling 1#($3.00), 2#($5.50), 2.5#($6.50), 5#($11.50). Would anyone venture comments and what you are charging for like sizes. My retail market is through a farmers market, upscale, weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:16:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "TxBeeFarmer (Mark Coldiron)" Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Wrote: > I have increased my prices in response to the new market conditions. I am selling 1#($3.00), 2#($5.50), 2.5#($6.50), 5#($11.50). Would anyone venture comments and what you are charging for like sizes. My retail market is through a farmers market, upscale, weekly. Reply: I'm assuming Rick's is in the U.S.. My retail is, 12 oz.($4.00), 1#($5.00), 1.5#($7.50). Wholesale is $0.50 less for each. The only thing I should add is, I'm the only beekeeper within an hours drive. West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:05:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeemanNick@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In selling to a similar, but different market place (most people in the area are farmers, or have lived in 'small' towns all of their lives) craft shows, and thrashing bee's we pry should be charging much more due to conditions, but have not raised our prices any in the past 2 years almost. For a 12oz we get $1.75, 4oz (Square bottle from Honey Acres) $1.25, 12oz Cut comb $3.00, 3# $5.00 and $17.00 for a gallon. We also sell creamed honey (different flavors) for 12oz hex, $3.00. That is the biggest seller for us by far. I would suggest to anyone to try there hand at making some. Its fast, and adds alot of value and uniqeness to your honey, and makes people remember you, and being from where there is a Branch Location for Sue Bee, it makes you stand out from them, which is a good thing. We last weekend had someone comment on how nice it was to see that our prices had stayed the same. I think however next year things will be going up by up to a dollar. Nick Iowa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:32:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Bassett wrote: I must very respectfully disagree that SHB are "scavengers" at all. In my opinion, the Beetles are prime predators of honeybees. They will kill aperfectly robust hive by eating it alive. I have seen it too many times. The hive swarmed and the Beetles tore it to pieces, in the aftermath. Reply: As far as I know, beetles can be found in every state in the USA in pollen traps and probably feeding on debre on bottom boards or in pollen frames themselves. This is normal occurrance. Only when out of control do they become a problem. Small hive beetle has been noted for being out of control. This is sad. But it still is a condition that can be corrected. You say the bees swarmed and the beetles came in. How long did this take to happen and to what level did they sink to after the bees swarmed would be a logical question I would think? Following swarming could the remaining bees have been resupered to accommodate the smaller population better to take care of the equipment? Just some thoughts. You also wrote: They don't use chemicals to control the Beetle in Africa, do they? The bees control this "minor" pest there, don't they? The Beetle is a major pest here, because our bees aren't used to them. We are down to our last hive here now, because of the beetles. Reply: As far as I know the feral are on smaller natural cell size in S. Africa more to the 4.9mm sizing I like to use as top tolerance (means no bigger to have the bees therefore size small, medium and larger for variance range). Yes, as far as I know they also control the pest for the most part from what literature I have on SHB from S. Africa. I cannot say the beetle is a major pest pest here because our bees aren't used to them, because beetles can be found in every state, though not necessarily SHB. But probably similar beetles size wise, if not smaller, for many of them.But beetles seem to be becoming a problem all over the USA. Is is just because beekeepers are now noticing them in colonies for the first time? But it is following a path behind mites and secondary diseases. It is just adding onto problems already there, which leads me IMPOV to think internal hive imbalance is getting greater with various doping usage, just adding more problems as things worsen. What critter will be next to add? Sorry you are down to your last hive.Hope you manage to keep it and come forward again. Maybe try some small cell with culling drones to 10% per frame and Housel positioning.I believe if more tried it they'd like it. Sure works for us. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:34:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > The easy way to test the hypothesis of whether healthy happy bees on > small cell foundation will be resistant to SHB would be to take some of > those colonies to an area of Florida where SHB is worst and see if they > survive. AFAIK, there are already hives in Florida on small cell size. Michael Housel has some. Perhaps we can hear from him on how they have managed the SHB. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: bee flowers In-Reply-To: <001601c28984$95be99e0$0200a8c0@Isabelle> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings: Inger Lamb inquired about Plants that bees work for nector, without much response from the list apparently. Please look at "American Honey Plants", by Frank G. Pellett, published by Dadant, 5th Edition, Third printing in 1978, about 450 pages. While old, it covers an huge variety of flora that are attrective to bees. I cannot suggest a seller, but perhaps Dadant can do so, if it it still on the market. There has recently been a short thread on cotton as a nector source, and this book states it precisely, with accuracy. I can attest to this, having kept a single hive on the edge of a large cotton field for six years, and to my knowledge not made a single frame of cotton honey in that time (Location: South Central Alabama).....Pellett points out (quoting several sources) that the on light sandy soil, cotton makes little honey, and this was the soil type here. This colony was very good, making each year eight to ten gallons from other sources, but none during the month of August, early September while the cotton was in bloom. Bob Barnett Birmingham, AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:20:51 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Checking the Bee-L archives, as of 4/16/02, Mr. Housel reported a large enough SHB population to prompt him to sell them on E-Bay. :) http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204C&L=bee-l&P=R732&D=0&m=39005 Which says: ================================ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:06:27 EDT From: Michael Housel Subject: all Hive Beetles For Sale !!! Cheap !!! If you are going to raise beetles cheap you might want to remove honey and extract it that day. The increase of bees on the brood box will give you more to herd the beetles up. 1/6 screen will let the beetles go thur without letting the bees. Sticky boards that are spaced apart with pollin to attract the beetles will trap them. This works best on the top of the hives. Bottomless hives will let the trash get to the ground which you have already sprayed. I used a pan with water in it and counted the floaters. Helpful hints glue all corners, dip lids in coppertox, extract honey as soon as possible, don't mess with brood box as it will set the beetles to laying. Shake out bees from effected hives that are lost and 1/6 screen floor with sticky board and pollen to remove any beetles. Nuc them with enough bees to cover both sides of frames and outer edge frames must not be drawn. Spray cover the outside frames with sugar water to feed. Put a new queen or queen cell in nuc. Hopefully nucs will be enough to cover the loses of hives. I am sure of one thing a hammer will get the beetles and you may feel better but the hive will be destoried. We need a portable beetle vaccum that is screened to save the bees but get the beetles inside it. I used one to collect the beetles at home but not able to get it to the sites I have bees now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:32:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Dennis Murrell > > Thomas Moser, on the BiologicalBeekeeping Group at Yahoo Groups- has > indicated that European beekeepers have been experiencing failures in > some areas using organic acids in spite of more frequent treatments. I forgot those links in my previous post. You will find info on European research here. http://www.entom.slu.se/res/bi/proj16b.html is a good place to start. http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/Themes/Varroa.htm is the Swiss Bee Research Center with much facts about acids. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:12:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "TxBeeFarmer (Mark Coldiron)" Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, cotton is tricky to work with. It can have blooms that look like a carpet of flowers and produce little nectar. The trick is to receive rain while the cotton is blooming. For a brief time, it will produce more nectar than your bees could possibly collect. You need to have every super you can find on the hives with every colony at peak population when this happens. I put 5 or more on each hive just before it blooms. Soon, the nectar dwindles back to almost nothing. Another shower, more nectar. For some reason, irrigated cotton doesn't produce a good tasting honey - at least not here. Irrigated cotton is often BT cotton which may explain the taste. I've also run into the same nectar dearth with mesquite trees. Mesquites bloom up to 4 times a year, but have little nectar until it rains. West Texas Mark > Pellett points out (quoting several sources) that > the on light sandy soil, cotton makes little honey, and this was the soil > type here. This colony was very good, making each year eight to ten gallons > from other sources, but none during the month of August, early September > while the cotton was in bloom. > > Bob Barnett > Birmingham, AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" In-Reply-To: <01C289E1.5C5868E0.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James Fischer wrote: Checking the Bee-L archives, as of 4/16/02, Mr. Housel reported a large enough SHB population to prompt him to sell them on E-Bay. :) Reply: Gee this is good. It was right after this that I sent Michael plastic 4.9mm to try and David Miksa gave him some wax foundation 4.9mm. He is still in his first year of regression and working the bees up. After he gets them stablized and established good. Then he can comment maybe and see if there is a difference. Why not ask David also? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:22:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Todd, I too have purchased an evaporator from Heilysier. Before you use it you might want to practice with it before using it in a hive. If you apply too much heat the vaporizer will clog up. I was able to purchase a good respirator for less than $40 at Home Depot, the Oxalic Acid I was able to purchase at a local paint supply store for less than $6 for a pound. I would strongly urge you to check out the MSD (material safety data) sheet for Oxalic Acid. You can find it by using google.com and oxalic acid as a search. It is nasty stuff as far as being in powder or vapor. Regards, Ralph Harrison Milford, CT ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:40:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Honey Farms Subject: ATT. ALL U.S.A. BEEKEEPERS."NEED YOUR HELP" HELO I'AM A BEEKEEPER IN RIVERSIDE CALIFORNIA.I RUN ABOUT TWO THOUSAND HIVES IN RIVERSIDE. I NEED ALL BEEKEEPERS TO CALL ARE PRESIDENT BUSH COMMENT LINE TO HELP GET THE SING UPS FOR 2002 [NAP] EXSTENED FOR HONEY.THE FSA,USDA ONLY RAN ARTICLE IN PAPER IN THE MOUNTH OF MARCH WHEN MOST BEEKEEPERS WERE MOVING BEES IN AND OUT OF POLLINATION.SO ONLY TWO BEEKEEPERS SINGED UP FOR [NAP]IN RIVERSIDE CAIFORNIA.WE IN CAIFORNIA NEED YOUR HELP TO EXSTEND 2002 SING UPS FOR [NAP] HONEY PROGRAM.PLEASE CALL AND ASK TO HAVE SING UPS FOR HONEY EXSTEND ON [NAP] PROGAMS. I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THE TIME TO THANK ALL USA BEEKEERPERS FOR YOUR HELP. TONY DAMATO OF SHANE HONEY FARMS ALSO CRIS LANKFORD OF LANKFORD HONEY FARMS .......P.S.YOU WILL BE TALKING TO A LIVE PERSON THAT WILL MAKE SURE ARE PRESIDENT GET THE COMMENTS.(202)456-1111 EMAIL FOR PRESIDENT BUSH IS .PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:06:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rich, You are still TOO CHEAP for good local honey! In the Washington DC area, grocery store prices of Sioux Bee and other well known commercial honeys are $2.75/LB to $3.30/LB. The honey of a LOCAL beekeeper should always sell for a higher price than a grocery store product, because it is LOCAL, disease free, fresh, and you, the beekeeper, can TALK to a customer about bees and their importance whereas the store clerk can only ring the cash register. I sell 1 LB jars for $3.75, 2 LB jars for $7.00 and 5 LB for $15. I sell comb honey for 30¢/ounce plus $1.00, so a 12 ounce section = $4.60 and a 16 ounce section = $5.80. Do I have volume? At our 9 day county fair, I average over $1000/day in sales, or about $10,000 -$13,000 for the 9 days. Customers come to my house and pay these prices. I have been doing this for many, many years. I have never sold a JAR OF HONEY; but I sell the DESIRE of people to buy George's Honey. This is the same as most people will NOT except Pepsi Cola in place of Coca Cola - I won't! Hence, over the years, I have established a whole bunch of faithful customers. The person who is afraid of grocery store prices is just not sales oriented. Hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Ending my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland and Virginia Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:25:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To what extent is the honeybee a necessary pollinator for cotton? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:17:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Honey Farms Subject: new at the online e-mails to all beekeepers i sent a help reply about the [nap] program.i'am new to online i did not know that sending caps was not good .so please accept my apolagise.will not happen again. thank you for your support. tony damato shane honey farms ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:59:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "TxBeeFarmer (Mark Coldiron)" Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Bee flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cotton is self pollinating; however, I have literature from the USDA that states an increase of 30-40% in yield, both seed and fiber, can be expected when bees are used to pollinate it. West Texas Mark > To what extent is the honeybee a necessary pollinator for cotton? > > Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:13:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Miksa Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control Hello everyone. For several years the SHB have been around our area in Central Florida. As far as the most effective organic control for the SHB, it is IPM for Varroa. We have not lost the first mating nuc, colony nor queen cell builder to SHB. As long as our colonies are in fair shape Varroa free queenless or queen right no SHB will damaged them. Our operation consists of 3800 mating nucs managed year around, and 400 colonies as breeders and cell builders. We caged 9 rounds of queens and produced just over 100,000 finished queen cells of which most are for sales to other beekeepers as queen cells. Our work crew are only family members, 3 full time and 2 part timers. David Andrew Miksa 13404 Honeycomb Road Groveland, Florida 34736 352-429-3447 fax 352-429-9133 miksahf@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:20:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi David, David wrote: "For several years the SHB have been around our area in Central Florida. As far as the most effective organic control for the SHB, it is IPM for Varroa." CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHAT DO YOUR USE FOR EFFECTIVE IPM PROGRAM FOR VARROA CONTROL IN CENTRAL FLORIDA? Thanks, Med Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: powdered sugar MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT An interesting fact, passed to me by "my son, the doctor" is that inhaled powdered sugar is really nasty in the lungs. The condition is known as "Bassinosis" (sp?), . Bakery workers, sugar cane harvesters, even those who frequently consume powdered sugar doughnuts are at risk. This has the potential to be very serious, with ulceration or possibly surgery a potential, and he cautions using it only outdoors, or in very good ventilation. EDW ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:47:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Retail prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: >Rich, >You are still TOO CHEAP for good local honey! In the Washington DC area, >grocery >store prices of Sioux Bee and other well known commercial honeys are $2.75/LB >to >$3.30/LB. The honey of a LOCAL beekeeper should always sell for a higher >price than a grocery store product, because it is LOCAL, disease free, >fresh, and you, the beekeeper, can TALK to a customer about bees and their >importance whereas the >store clerk can only ring the cash register. > Hi George and All, You hit it on the head. Brace yourself for these prices. 1# - $6 24 oz. - $8 3# - $12 and $ 45. a gallon.. We do 5 farmers markets a week during the summer and fall. I have built my customer base by giving out information about where I put my bees and why the product is very good. Its not Rocket science. If you have a good product get paid for your work. I spend a lot of time driving up to the mountains and back to get the cleanest honey I can get. We do very well and have no competition but ourselves. Put out the best product you can and explain some beekeeping to your customers. Have pictures of some of your sites. Make up some info sheets about bees and honey to hand out. It all works together. The last U-District market in Seattle we did $ 1700 . That is above average for that market. $ 800 to $ 1,000 is normal Good honey and good beekeeping brings in the money. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:41:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: one frame of comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can I (next year) add a single super of round comb honey as a part of summer supering for extracted honey? I teach agriculture and maintain the hive primarily for education and demonstration and would like to be able to show (and produce) a little comb honey. I realize there are different management for the two types of honey products but as I'm not trying to maximize production (yet), can I do a little of both comb honey and extracted honey? (fyi, I'm looking at the round section super in the Dadant catalog) Thanks, Mark hubbard@cofo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:08:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: one frame of comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Impossible. The bees will ignore the comb honey frame and concentrate on the remaining frames.