From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:39:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, FUZZY_AMBIEN,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226E449076 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXT010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0212B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 129560 Lines: 3003 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:24:36 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Moving pests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry said: > It's apparent you feel that only "qualified" people are capable of measuring > comb and reporting truthfully. I disagree completely. The idea here was to send samples to IMPARTIAL parties. It is not important what one's opinion is of the need for scientific credentials, the crucial point is to simply have someone who has not been labeled as "pro" or "anti" small cell, and is also "known" to many as "an authority" take a look. It should be obvious that the boys in white lab coats would have the time, the tools, and the access to the literature required to give such evidence a fair evaluation. > With as much skepticism and distaste for this topic that is displayed > on this list by those with some sort of science background, Skepticism, yes. "Distaste", no. Expect skeptics. A well-developed sense of skepticism is a required item in both science and beekeeping. But there is a difference between skepticism and "distaste". Not noticing the difference appears to be one of the "problems" that the small-cell proponents have created for themselves. I am honestly trying to suggest some reasonable "first steps" that might lead to grant applications and responses to RFPs that would result in good quality studies on small cell. I've been dropping hints for quite some time. I didn't expect a thank you, but I sure didn't expect a load of grief, either. Let me attempt to explain the high correlation between "some sort of science background" and skepticism towards "small cell", or anything, for that matter. Please recall that science was the first "contact sport". It started when an ape banged two rocks together for the first time. We have much prettier and shinier rocks now, but we still mostly just bang things and ideas against each other until the weaker one breaks. If you don't like the banging, take the idea off the table, since to place an idea on the table is to invite such banging. But please don't ever again pull the lame trick of claiming that anyone "dislikes" something just because they are asking legitimate questions and banging on the idea a bit to see if it breaks. That's just tacky. > it's no wonder why there is a lack of wanting to give any helping hand to > those in similar standings (USDA or university). "Those who post to the list do NOT include those working for USDA or many educational institutions, since these institutions still fear that participation in mailing lists like Bee-L may place their institution in a "bad light". Only a tiny minority feel free to post. But many DO read the list. (Hi, folks! Hey - It's December, so its time to SPEND that end-of-year money. Use it, or lose it! Anyone got an old stereo dissection microscope they want to sell? I want to give it as a Christmas gift to a needy beekeeper for tracheal testing and basic anatomy work, so please e-mail or call ASAP.) It follows that there is NO CONNECTION between views expressed on this list and (for example) the opinion of the USDA. We can assume the USDA ARS to be both impartial and neutral. > Let those wanting "official reports" do what it takes to get them. If, on the one hand, you want studies to be done, and think the prior studies were of low quality, but on the other hand, refuse to take the initiative to send some tangible evidence of "something interesting" to those who might do better studies, this leaves the rational observer a tad confused. It also raises additional latent concern about the veracity of the claim that any such samples exist. Therefore, only physicals samples will do, and only impartial parties will do. > I should say right here that I am NOT trying to "build support" for small cell. > That would be a futile exercise. The tendency is for anyone who comments > on SC, gets the unfortunate ride of being thrown in to "that group" and gets > a unique treatment. What "unique treatment" might this be? If one compares the reception given to small cell with that given to other "alternative treatments" (essential oils, FGMO, and the various acids), one sees a fairly consistent agenda in the questions asked by the group as a whole, and it is a rational approach: a) Tell the group what you did (document the new approach) b) Tell the group what you did NOT do (for example, did not also use Apistan, et al) c) Tell the group for how long you have been doing this d) Tell the group what your results were, both for the new approach, and a control group that continued to be managed the "traditional" way. These are reasonable questions. The problem is that when one gets argument in reply, rather than facts, one is forced to shrug one's shoulders, and dismiss the writer as unable to provide any information that might help an intelligent person make an informed decision. The people who first experimented with the various acids responded to initial questions with clear and concise answers. This ADDED credibility. Thus, more and more people are trying the various acids. No mystery there. > The "bad news" is that Beltsville has never asked or even indicated that > they would be interested in such samples. Your protocol is out of order. The statement above evinces a complete lack of comprehension of even the basic rudiments of "scientific protocol". Aside from Mulder and Sculley of the "X Files", there are NO federal employees, and almost no university employees who can even get permission, let alone funding, to chase down random aprochryphal anecdotes. (And look what happened to Mulder and Sculley - their show got cancelled!) First, someone has to deliver some evidence. A smoking gun on a silver patter would be nice, given current limited budgets and staffs, but anything would be nice. Delivering such evidence with a specific request for analysis would allow the analysis to be done under EXISTING budgets for the analysis of beekeeper problems/questions at beekeeper request. > They did however, according to Keith, visit Bolling Bee and write a > follow-up letter. That's a good first step I guess. Yes, that is something, but is it enough to get a project going? Dunno. > I have no desire to move this cell size issue out of the corner on this forum. Why this sudden change in attitude? Is it because it has been suggested that the next step would be sending something claimed to be "evidence" to someone who might be able to do an in-depth analysis? > Maybe others have a desire to "make you believe" in SC, It would appear that this exact goal was the motivation of the post to which I am responding. Why else would such effort be expended? > but I've taken the position that it will have to stand on its own Then why the impassioned pleas? > There is so much to go on right now that all our labs could each be studying > a unique aspect of SC for several years without duplicating anything. Well, what IS there to go on? In July 2001, you said: "I'm in my second year and know of another who is in his third year now and building up fast. So I'm very skeptical of those you are referring to that say it works great because I'm still in the "not so great" period of converting. In fact, it hasn't even been one year that the foundation has been available on the market." In: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0107B&L=bee-l&P=R1806&D=0&m=35669 I think that your statement of July 2001 was very reasonable. What has happened in a single year made a difference to you? What credibility has been added by more people STARTING the multi-year process? > Have you given equal energy to critique those who have claimed no results, > or is it just a given with you that their word is enough without knowing all > the details? I see a lack of consistency. I think that if polled, the members of the list would firmly agree that I am equally "hard" on anyone who slips into fuzzy thinking, regardless of what they might be thinking about. I am CONSISTENTLY a hard-nosed son-of-a-gun. Sorry that you feel "your ox" is being gored this time around, but when I see bull, I think hamburger, and start my grinder. The good news is that while the group certainly is "hard on the ideas", we try to be "soft on the people". The moderators even help on this. > Are you offering your lab and testing facilities to do such a test? Would you accept the results as "impartial" and "fair? Thought not. Just who's lab WOULD you agree would be impartial and fair, up front, before the time and money were spent? Any lab? Anywhere? > First of all, I alone can't document the "whole story." Then get together with a few others and collaborate. > It doesn't surprise me that this is what you desire or need, a point-by-point, > step-by-step, well laid out manual on how to succeed with SC, as reading > over some of your posts to this list, they are written in the same fashion. I am not suggesting that anyone write a "manual", but something a little more coherent than what exists would help. Help what? Help it to at least make it to the "stack" of legitimate avenues for research. Help it make the list of things that MIGHT be considered for funding. > ...the people that are "beat[ing] a path to the door" now are seen as kooks > and fanatics. This apparent persecution complex is a real problem in itself, but let me again stress that the only point being critiqued (over, and over, and over again) is the complete lack of rigor in the attempts to date made to present small cell as a possible alternative. This is not, and should be interpreted as, a critique of "small cell itself". "Small cell" itself is IMPOSSIBLE to critique until someone explains exactly what it is in terms that can both be understood, and used as a basis for some preliminary tests. > BTW, perhaps you would consider trying SC in your hives and report back what > you find. This has been said so often, it is almost a mantra - "Try it, you'll like it". I'm still asking "Try what"? "How?" "Using what criteria?" All the dodging and weaving in response to questions about "small cell" reminds me of an old joke: A man walks into a bar, and orders a dry martini. The bartender takes out the gin, vermouth, and an eyedropper, and makes a martini with only a single drop of vermouth. The customer pushes the glass away without even tasting, telling the bartender to pour it out and make him a DRY martini. The bartender is confused at this reaction, and asks the customer just what he means by a "dry martini", if a single drop of vermouth is "too sweet" for his taste. The customer explains that a DRY martini is simply a glass of gin, over which the bartender says the word "vermouth". The bartender follows the customer's instructions to the letter. The customer AGAIN pushes the glass away, telling the bartender to pour it out and make him a DRY martini. At this point, the bartender becomes annoyed, and asks the customer just what he might have done "wrong". The customer replies that the bartender said the word "vermouth" too loudly. That's the little game to which those of us asking questions are being subjected. That's why a rational observer STILL can't tell the difference between "small cell beekeeping" and the cult of "Reverend" Sun Yung Moon . One cannot test a moving target. One can hardly discuss it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:29:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Small cell question-sorry, folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carol, > I get the impression that you cannot simply pop 10 frames of 4.9 foundation > into a hive body, and expect that the bees will draw it out into 4.9 cells. > Is this correct? What will they do to 4.9 foundation? > > What is the correct procedure to follow to get the bees to make 4.9 cells on > 4.9 foundation? here is a copy of the info you asked: Would someone be willing to give a brief description of the whole process and some warnings of pitfalls one might expect to fall into along the way. reply: This is for someone with more than one hive. Place queen excluder (includer) on bottom board (don't skip this step) then add box of 4.9 foundation. Shake all the bees into the hive. I grab the queen and toss her in the hive. Then brush and shake the rest at the entrance. Feed the hive. This all needs to be done as early as possible in the season. The content of the hive that was shook down is given to another. Repeat the process as needed. Once the bees are 5.1 or less you then can work progressively adding frames of foundation between the combs. When the bees draw them out put them to the center moving the largest to the outsides, then up, then into the supers. Cull them. Then you work the bottom box to all 4.9 cells then the center of the next just keep pyrimiding up. What are the secrets of making the switch? reply: Don't know any true secrets. I know from mistakes however. Use the queen includer-trust me d:< ) . Use full sheets of foundation, forget the starter strips. Bees key in better with full sheets and you get alot farther quicker. Make sure the equipment has no holes that the bees could abscond through. There is a window for good small cell comb drawing- spring build up. Once the honey flow hits- most bees will draw honey storage cell size- don't ruin lots of foundation trying to get them to draw small cells at the wrong time. Don't force the bees- they don't play fair. Just work with what they do. If they draw some weird odd ball combs let them, some need to go through such a step before they make progress. Don't know the why's just happens that way. Also there is a small % of hives that just won't regress- forget them. You need good drawn 4.9 combs to shake them on later on. Then the following season shake the colony(ies) that recieved th! e brood down onto 4.9 placing the brood and all above the supers of the started 49er colonies, similar to demaree technique. Cut queen cells out of them, or use them. When brood hatches remove or leave as supers. What ever best fits at the time depend on the sizing of the bees. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:51:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Moving pests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I did a cut-out this > >> year from a roof eave that had a first year swarm in it. The core brood > >> cells measured 4.9mm and got bigger in size the further away they were from > >> the core. > Certainly not a first for me. I have talked with numerous beekeepers that > have shared the same experience. I have comb sitting next to me on my desk > that a beekeeper sent me a few weeks ago that came out of a bee tree that > measures the same. Barry, Did you happen to notice if the combs in this feral colony were arranged in the AY YA order as well? Waldemar Long Island, NY --------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:23:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: CO2 - wintering - ventilation In-Reply-To: <01C29E69.55FEECC0.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I remembered Allen Dick and Mr Gustavson debate about ventilation, moisture and CO2. I read bee-L archives about CO2 and its so-called capacity to sink in the hive. I measured CO2 in two hives both at the top hole ventilation for wintering and at the bottom. I do not claim this is a scientific study nor results are statistically representative. I just offer the results I had. Take them and explain them as you like. Those 2 hives are isolated on 6 faces. They are both on plain classic bottom board. They have no cover but styrofoam sheet in place with a front face hole for ventilation. As a result my ventilation type is from bottom to top. The 1st hive entrance is fully opened. There is classic entrance reductor on the 2nd. I do not know if hives present the same population. I used a Young Environmental Systems Inc 206 Falcon for CO2 measurement. Since I could not introduce the whole instrument in the hive I filled Tedlar bags with air sampled with an air pump and a plastic tube introduced in the hive at the bottom level or through the top hole. I then shoot the air from Tedlar bags to the sample port of the instrument (it was technically not possible to pump the air from hives and shooting it directly to the instrument). Results were as follows: - outside (ambient): 360 ppm, T=-9C - 1st hive: - bottom: 1,500 ppm - top: 6,200 ppm - 2nd hive: - bottom: 2,200 ppm - top: > 10,000 ppm Because of the non direct measurement, I do not think these concentrations are exactly concentrations in hives but it seems to me they could be qualitatively compared. Hervé Laval, Québec ___________________________________________________________ Soyez solidaire soutenez l’action du Téléthon avec Yahoo! France. http://www1.telethon.fr/030-Espace-Relais-Dons/webtirelire1.asp?hebergeur_id=1309 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell question-sorry, folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carol and Everyone, Carol asked: > I get the impression that you cannot simply pop 10 frames of 4.9 foundation into a hive body, and expect >that the bees will draw it out into 4.9 cells. Is this correct? What will they do to 4.9 foundation? That's true. It appears that the bees will construct 4.9 comb in the center of the broodness. At some point they begin to draw larger cells with eventually drone and larger honey storage cells away from the broodnest. The factors that control the change in size are not understood. When the bees decide they have enough they will rework the small cell foundation and draw what they like. It's almost impossible to get good small cell comb drawn during a honey flow which has been the traditional time to draw the larger cell foundation. I speculate the bees work to maximize wax resources and storage space when the nectare is flowing in. Small cell foundation is produced by shaking the bees onto foundation in the spring. This forces the bees into an emergency situation and they construct brood comb first. Brood cycles are lost and it's very hard on the bees as essentially you are starting over with a package. Another method is to reduce the hive to just the frames of brood and insert small cell foundation in the center. The bees percieve a shortage of brood comb and will build small cell.The large cell frames are rotated out and more small cell foundation is inserted in the center. This process is not as disruptive as the shake down but it less likely to succeed as well. Lots of detailed information and discussion exists on the web. Some resources are: www.besource.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BiologicalBeekeeping Contact me privately with any questions if you prefer. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Palmer Subject: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to try the caucasian bee, but I have heard that they tend toward excessive propolisation. Would I be sorry (read stupid) if I tried a season with this bee? Carol Palmer Massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 19:40:25 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: The Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy ("I-What?") in Geneva Switzerland has published their 2002 annual report on alternative beekeeping practices, which should be required reading for all beekeepers concerned for the health of their colonies. The report is at: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:17:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) In-Reply-To: <01C29E69.55FEECC0.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Jim - >> Let those wanting "official reports" do what it takes to get them. > > If, on the one hand, you want studies to be done, and think the prior studies > were of low quality, I already said in my last email that I DON'T want/need studies to be done. Others are demanding studies, not I. Are you planning to give us your take on a recent study, as I had asked? http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/pav/scstudy.htm > It also raises additional latent concern about the veracity of the claim that > any such samples exist. Therefore, only physicals samples will do, and > only impartial parties will do. A major problem in discussing this issue with you is your obvious presumption that I, and others, are not truthful. I see no way to discuss these things when such an underlying assumption is there. I have physical samples, yet in your eyes, this means nothing, or some sort of conspiracy. You can see for yourself, but then I suppose I'll be blamed for altering the image to make it appear in such a way that it 'fits' the SC theory. http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/lee/index.htm >> but I've taken the position that it will have to stand on its own > > Then why the impassioned pleas? Go back and read this posting that brought in SC to the discussion and you will see that the names of the two involved are Keith and Jim. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212A&L=bee-l&P=R1425 I quote: >>Anyone have an actual solution to suggest? >> I'm fresh out. >> >> jim Keith M. replied: > Small cell, The Lusby,s and several beekeepers in the USA and Europe have > done just as you have suggested above using small cells. Though their hard > work and results are negated. When is a caring and honest researcher going > to research small cell methods correctly and completely? A large percent of your writing needs to be directed towards Keith, not I. You keep trying to pull me into discussion points that I have not made. In fact, Keith even prefaced his remarks with: > this is only my opinion and is an anecdotal conclusion And then Keith Benson wrote: > Just because some might want small cell to be a panacea (and it would > be nice it is turns out to be) doesn't mean that anyone else has to > devote time and resources to ivestgating it. I fully agree with Keith here, yet Jim keeps saying that I am pushing for testing. > I think that your statement of July 2001 was very reasonable. > What has happened in a single year made a difference to you? > What credibility has been added by more people STARTING the > multi-year process? Read for yourself. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BiologicalBeekeeping/ > Just who's lab WOULD you agree would be impartial and fair, up front, > before the time and money were spent? Any lab? Anywhere? We still have no idea just what it is you think will be tested and what these tests will prove. Hold on, I just found this in the archives. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212A&L=bee-l&P=R2101 Jim wrote: > I've yet to see anyone present any records to show that: > a) They have used no chemicals > b) Their colony losses have been minimal > c) They have produced reasonable marketable crops, or pollinated I have underestimated a labs ability to draw factual conclusions. To be able to have the final (truthful) word on these points, all from a piece of comb, is just amazing! I can see point 'a' being determined, but not much else. I guess it's a trust issue. All these beekeepers spending good money on 4.9 foundation and all the hard work to get the bees drawing it right, but secretly on the side putting chemicals in the hive and then telling everyone that SC works. I have more faith in people than to think that. Besides, I've never yet said that SC works beyond the Lusby's and perhaps Bolling Bee, as I know of no others who have had bees on SC for more than a few years. I still await the trial of time for the rest of us. Please let us know what kind of results you are having with SC. I'm also waiting a for a reply to this: > The world awaits an explanation, 'cause we've had a bellyful of > random claims and excuses that everyone who sees no results > did something "wrong". Please give specifics. Names of people who have used SC and have had no results. The people I know who are using SC are sharing their experience with it in a public forum with a range of results. I haven't heard from anyone who claims to have used it without any results. Let's hear of them so it can be public knowledge. Please? Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:52:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Wiebe Subject: Waxing Woodenware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for procerdures used in dipping supers, syrup feeders and other wood ware in wax. Is wax by itself ok to use, or do you mix anything with it? How long is the wood kept in the hot wax? What kind of container would be handy to use as a dip tank? Any free lessons out there? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carol, The bees available commercially in the USA today are more alike than different. I have found that there is as much variation with a 'race' as between 'races' of bees. I doubt that the race of bees in most cases is true to the type we read about in the books. So, go ahead and try them. If you have more than one hive try several different selections if you have an experimental nature. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey said: > Are you planning to give us your take > on a recent study, as I had asked? > http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/pav/scstudy.htm I wish I could, but what is there appears to be a news summary about a study, rather than the actual published paper. One can't tell much unless one reads the actual paper. I'm not even sure that I am even permitted to comment on what little is said on the web page, since it says both: "(C) 2001-2002 Beesource.Com/Unauthorized reproduction forbidden by Federal Copyright Law." and "By Michelle Taylor, Hortresearch" ...so I'm not sure if I have the "right" to cut and paste a few snippets to contrast what is said versus what I'd expect to read about methodology in such a report, and I'm not sure who I should ask for permission. But it does seem clear that: 1) A citation to the complete published paper would be nice, if a paper was ever published anywhere as a result of this work. 2) Someone needs to clear up the apparent conflict between the "copyright" claimed by the website and "authorship", since, by definition, the author of a paper or news report has the only valid copyright on a work, unless such rights were granted to the journal or news outlet in which it was published. 3) If this document WAS the extent of the actual "paper", it is simply "unpublishable work", and does not qualify as anything more than "another opinion". Perhaps if it were reworked, and more detail was added... 4) 10 colonies is simply not enough "test subjects" to yield data that can be subjected to much in the way of rigorous statistical analysis. I don't think that this error can be corrected at this point. It is a apparently a fatal flaw. 5) I think that the person that did these tests was in much the same boat I find myself. Clearly what could have been of use would have been better descriptions and definitions of exactly what "small cell" entails. (For example, Clay Huestis made an excellent start of laying out some basic facts in his post of Saturday, Dec 7, 2002). I'm not sure that the person who did the tests described really understood even as much as was explained by Clay. 6) As an aside, if more "small cell" posts were written like Clay's, small cell would have MUCH more credibility among the general beekeeping public. But if you want me to agree that the report is "lousy science", I won't. It isn't "science" at all. What I read is nothing more than one group's observations of the results of: a) a methodology that is not clearly explained b) testing a premise that is also not clearly explained c) apparently using "tests" of comb that can only be described as "random" or "in transition". ...so the whole report can only be understood within the highly unique context of the "tests" performed. I'm not sure what connection these "tests" might have with actual beekeeping, since I don't think anyone has ever before tried what was done in this case, nor do I think anyone will ever try it again. I guess the most charitable thing that could be said is that the report confirms that colonies in the middle of being "downsized to small cell" do not provide consistent data, and do not willingly submit to the will of the beekeeper in regard to cues offered by smaller foundation. So, it confirms what may be well understood by folks like Clay Huestis. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:55:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: Outside syrup tanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dairy tanks work well for syrup and honey. Those under a 1000 gallons can be had fairly cheaply here as there is no demand for them any more. They just don't have the capacity as farmers increase herd size. We have a 600 imp. gal one that acts as a honey settling tank & is tied into the bulk syrup system should we want to warm up a batch of feed for early spring or late fall. I don't know what is considered a fertilizer pump in your part of the world, but the ones used here for moving liquid fertilizer are the what most beekeepers use for syrup. May or maynot be the same. Honey pumps really depend on so many things. How clean and warm the honey is, distance lifted/pushed, & volume all play a part. When I started I used a little thirty-five dollar brass one. The honey was well settled in the sump: no wires or sticks & little wax. It was warmed to 90F and we were only pumping seven feet up to a bottling tank. It worked really well. When we changed buildings it wouldn't push to 9 ft. Each situation is unique and the beekeeping supply shops only want to carry a couple of pumps at most. The more expensive ones cover the widest range of applications, but depending on what you're doing you may find a number of cheaper ones. I wouldn't want to make any suggestions without knowing a lot more detail about your situation. Dave Ardmore, AB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:29:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Arne Haugaard Subject: Re: CO2 - wintering - ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CO2´s(every gas) density depends on temperature ! I would say that your "readings" of CO2 concentrations in the hives are an indication of the ventilation from buttom to top(the only kind) that you mention. Meaning that your hives are ventilated - good. In cases where the air(+ gases) are stale meaning that no ventilation is taking place the CO2 would fall to the buttom of hives this happens due to a higher density of CO2 than air when they both have the same temperature. CO2 is leaving the bees at a higher temperature than the surrounding air has, due to the draft in the hive and the lower density(due to the higher temperature)much of this CO2 is drawn out at the top rather than falling out the bottom as could be expected. Conclusion : you may have found a way to determin ventilation levels in behives Arnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:13:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carol, > I would like to try the caucasian bee, but I have heard that they tend > toward excessive propolisation. Would I be sorry (read stupid) if I tried a > season with this bee? reply: The caucasian bee is a very good bee. It seems to get a bad name over its propolisation. I personally am in favor of the carniolan bee. Both are good. I would try to find a breeder of caucasian bees that breeds for caucasian characteristics so one can get a good picture of these bees. Remember all strains aren't the same. And no you wouldn't be "stupid" to try these bees. Like a box of chocolates. There all chocolate, but some you prefer better than others :>) Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:06:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Moving Pests Comments: cc: barry@birkey.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James and Everyone, I don't know what I could have done differently to share my observations and experience with small cell on bee-l. I did not parrot anyones ideas. Only my observations and mite counts were forwarded. Sometimes my own speculation was added but was always prefaced with a "maybe" or " I think", etc. I have shared the results and the liabilities. I do think for myself and don't need either an institution or movement to do my thinking for me. I have no vested interest in anything in beekeeping. I am not employed in beekeeping, don't sell any products. I am not running for political office or starting any new religions.:>) I am however indebted to those who have freely shared their ideas about beekeeping with me. So I have shared here hoping to benefit others as I have been benefitted. I did not think that integrity would enter the focus. Why would I falsify my observations? To prove I'm right? I'm not here to prove anything! To join my side? I'm not fighting anybody for anything. I have no side. Questions have been asked. I have attempted to answer them based on my experiences so you can benefit from my experience and avoid my mistakes. Now I have some questions. How does one determine what is "bull" before they put it into their impartial grinder? Did they visit with beekeepers using and see their bees on small cell? Are they using small cell and reporting their experiences? Just what is the "bull" based on? I am not sure, but the grinder sure has been running overtime.:>( And what about sliding scales? I interpret these as a request for more information. By the way, Barry has posted pictures of obviously old, feral comb from Missouri with small cell sized comb. www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/lee/index.htm . Check that off. Next. This information is not new. I have seen some proponents of small cell parrot others ideas and observations as fact without any real experience. I have also seen opponents of small cell parrot other's ideas in the same manner. Why? My hope for all this is that somebody else can throw away the nitrile gloves, toss the calendar and reach into their hives, scope up a piece of burr comb and freely give it to their kids at anytime without any regrets. Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Palmer wrote: >I would like to try the caucasian bee, but I have heard that they tend >toward excessive propolisation. Would I be sorry (read stupid) if I tried a >season with this bee? > > No, you will not be sorry. You can live with propolis (and use it and even sell it as some do). When you hear about traits, they are general and may not apply to the ones you get. I have had Carneoleans which propolized everything. If I didn't move fast, would have coated me. Others propolized not at all. The nice thing about Caucasians is they are normally very gentle bees and a good starter bee. You will like that trait and not worry about the propolis (which usually cleans up easily with your hive tool). A local bee supplier starts everyone with Caucasians just because they are easy to handle. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:37:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry & All, Barry wrote; > A large percent of your writing needs to be directed towards Keith, not I. > You keep trying to pull me into discussion points that I have not made. In > fact, Keith even prefaced his remarks with: > I wrote in my earliest post on this subject line; > > this is only my opinion and is an anecdotal conclusion > I included this disclaimer so I would not have been read wrong by anyone thinking that I am trying to push this on beekeepers who would choose not to. Also any neophyte beekeepers would realize that this was my take on it and hope that they would not just go out and gear up to do small cell beekeeping without looking deeply into it first like I did. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:11:40 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: The Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & All, > The report is at: >http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/index.html > I can see from reading just one of the links on this site that a beekeeper also needs to be quick to see that your trying hard to pull legs. Watch out for the chair you sit in everybody, it just may be pulled right out from under your butt. It is good to make light of a situation for the sake of a good laugh. Where do I send my donation for the "James and Laura Fischer World Domination Fund"? Good work Jim, can I add a link for your new web site to my web site for all beekeepers to learn of better ways of beekeeping. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Burlap test Didn't I see a test here for determining whether burlap has plastic in it? A coffee processor just moved into my neighborhood and they just throw them away. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:00:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Varroa and winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a question for you all that i cannot remember that it has been discussed here: How does the varroa population in a hive make it throught winter? Winters here in Sweden are probably similar to those in Minnesota and the states around there. My bees are Carnolians, which stop laying early and have a period of at least three months with little or no brood. I'm thinking this must be really rough if your name is Varroa Destructor and this is where you live. Mites don't reproduce anywhere but in sealed brood, right? Do fall mites build up like fall bees so they can make it over the winter? How many percent of the mites in a hive in september make until march? Does anyone have any good information about all this? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:03:30 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Small cell question & Caucasians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carol & All, > I get the impression that you cannot simply pop 10 frames of 4.9 foundation > into a hive body, and expect that the bees will draw it out into 4.9 cells. > Is this correct? What will they do to 4.9 foundation? > > What is the correct procedure to follow to get the bees to make 4.9 cells on > 4.9 foundation? > Since I keep bees in Alaska, (We have a very short season up here) I felt it was beneficial for myself to start package bees that were born on small cells. I pretty much started my small cell hives by hiving what I call small cell package bees. I saved the transition period and firmly established my next generation bees on small cells. They drew the foundation out nicely and some of the cells were drawn as far down as 4.8mm, so 4.9mm is top tolerance on the brood combs. This was done in one season. I know this does not answer your question but Clay did a very good job of doing that. You also had a question in another post regarding the use of Caucasians as a stock. The small cell package bees I used were from a Caucasian queen producer and they seem good to me. I have been using Caucasians now for about 5 years and I am very pleased with them. Before settling on Caucasians I tried my hands on many different strains. For your area really I would try to find a local queen producer and use them. Up here where I keep bees there really is no local queen producers and most keepers order out. I settled on Caucasians because over all they did the best for me in what I was trying to do. Most beekeepers up here do not over-winter so wintering is not a characteristic that is considered when deciding which strain to use, but it is with me. I now produce some of my own queens and look to do more in the future so I can acclimate my stock. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:27:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol, In today's times, it is difficult to find a "stock" of any particular race of bees that has maintained the good points and the bad points that have been assigned to that race many times in the past. This is NOT true of the Italian or Carniolan races, because some highly knowledgeable genetic scientists have artificially inseminated thousands of queens and selected certain daughters to be bred in an attempt to "purify" the race back to how it was originally portrayed centuries ago. As far as know, not much such work has been done with Apis mellifera caucasia, because the race was never really very popular in the U. S. Why? It is well established that it uses an over abundant amount of propolis; and it does really start population building until quite late in the season in comparison with the Italian and particularly the Carniolan. After all the Caucasian race's native home is the Asian mountains, which require a good bit of "weather-stripping" with propolis to keep out the cold winter winds, and in this climate, spring is late in coming, like June rather than April or May. Twenty years ago, when I was scientifically trying various races to fine that which I deemed the most suitable for our EARLY strong nectar flow in Maryland starting in mid April and becoming intense in May, the Caucasian race was a miserable failure because they were "still asleep" in April and May and the queens had not really laid much brood. Further, the over abundance of propolis just made a mess of beekeeping. Although I switched from Italians to Carniolans 54 years ago (1948) to take advantage of the Carniolan's "explosive" late winter (very early spring) buildup, I would also say that for most people a GOOD STOCK Italian that has been bred by a highly skilled queen breeder is HARD TO BEAT. You must realize that there are some very highly skilled and knowledgeable queen breeders in the U. S., and there is also a bundle of queen producers who don't know the first thing about genetic behavior. By the selection of a highly knowledgeable queen breeder rather than just a queen producer, might be all you need to make you happy. Inquire around and learn WHO are highly respected queen breeders, and who are officials of prominent associations like the National Honey Board, the American Beekeeper Federation, and perhaps EAS. I still prefer Carniolans for Central Maryland beekeeping in spite of their propensity to swarm, because our TOTAL nectar yielding period is DONE AND OVER for the year by June 10th, and the Carnies hit full strength by April 1st, so I get very high yields of honey compared other beekeepers who cannot seem to handle Carniolan swarming. I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Ending my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland and Northern Virginia Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Author of ABF's Newsletter Hobbyist Tips bimonthly Author of George's PINK PAGES at www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html and www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:56:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: <000001c29ef4$2a5de2c0$0b2b5b0c@att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > From: Carol Palmer > Subject: Caucasian bees > > I would like to try the caucasian bee: excessive propolisation? Ten + years ago I did this in my backyard hobby apiary, and have since regretted it. Propolis IS excessive, and it takes hard work to keep the colony clean enough to be easily, pleasantly, accessible. Even this far south I've seen the entrance closed to about a square inch in winter despite an entrance reducer. In late August Sept., so much propolis is on hands, fingers, hive tool, smoker, and everything else that it is downright unpleasant; picking up, moving, and queen handling operations are very messy! The black queens are frequently hard to find, make easy only by marking..use white marker. If you raise queens the caucasian drones will forever mix your stock. and the propolisation goes on and on, though less and less. On the other hand this bee is gentle, quiet on the comb and they are a pleasure to work. > Would I be sorry if I tried this bee? I would not do this again, but this is just my take; (I stick with Italians here in the south, but venture nothing further) Robert Barnett Birmingham, AL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Waxing Woodenware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These sites may be of some help: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/chapleau.html http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid1995/btiddc95.htm#Item4 http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/biblio3.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Wiebe" To: Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Waxing Woodenware > I am looking for procerdures used in dipping supers, syrup feeders and > other wood ware in wax. Is wax by itself ok to use, or do you mix > anything with it? How long is the wood kept in the hot wax? What kind > of container would be handy to use as a dip tank? Any free lessons out > there? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:39:48 -0600 Reply-To: apism@attbi.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Apism Subject: 2003 Midwest Beekeeping Symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Northern Illinois Beekeepers Association is proud to announce the 2003 Midwest Beekeeping Symposium! MARK YOUR CALENDAR 2003 Midwest Beekeeping Symposium Saturday, March 29, 2003 8:30 am– 3:30 pm McHenry County College Crystal Lake, Illinois The Northern Illinois Beekeepers Association and McHenry County College present the 2003 Midwest Beekeeping Symposium. The 2003 Symposium will combine both general sessions and numerous small group sessions. The diverse and jam-packed agenda will range from beginner topics to advanced such as, integrated pest management strategies, mead making, research updates, honey competition strategies and many more. Our 2003 featured speaker will be Dr. Dewey Caron, Professor of Entomology, University of Delaware. His topic for the keynote address will be “Integrated Pest Management - The Best Strategy for Mite and Pest Control Within the Hive”. Dr. Caron, author of Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping, Africanized Honey Bees in the Americas, and co-author of Observation Hives, is one of the country’s most popular speakers on Beekeeping. His research interests are insect pollination, pest/predators of honeybees and issues in conservation of Bees and natural resources. To receive a brochure with more information, including registration information, e-mail your name, address and phone number to mwalsh@mchenry.edu or call 815.455.8697. Additionally, Symposium information can be found on the Illinois State Beekeepers Association website at www.isba.ws The Symposium registration fee of $30.00 covers all presentations and a Honey themed lunch. Ken Haller President, Northern Illinois Beekeepers Association Northern Region Director, Illinois State Beekeepers Association Viking Honey Farm Arlington Heights, Illinois USA vikinghoneyfarm@attbi.com AIM Screen Name: kenhaller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:47:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Swarming Carnolians (was Caucasian bees) In-Reply-To: <15a.189b6f6b.2b26c748@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George Imirie wrote: >I get very high yields of honey compared other beekeepers who cannot >seem to handle Carniolan swarming. George, having Carnolians myself, i would be extremely interested in some information about how you keep your bees in the hives, making honey instead of flying off into the woods. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:58:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carol & All Here are some good and less good Caucasian bee properties The Caucasian bees have an exclusive property. Their tongue is the longest among other honey bee races. The length for Caucasian is 6.8-7.3 mm, for Local 5.9-6.3, for Kraina 6.4-6.7, for Italian 6.2-6-5, for Carpathian-6.3-6.7 Therefore they can take nectar from red clover saying nothing about the rest honey bees. They are smaller, only 90 mg Worse egg laying, especially during nectar flow. They are very calm Like rob when starving Very toil Earlier start, later finish their working day Negative affect of metrological circumstances is less Usually prefer a silent requeening They are more sensitive to honey dew honey left for wintering (Nosemathosis) Maybe this fit only for European bees, but the main features could be similar Good luck Rimantas Zujus ICQ 4201422 http://gytis.lei.lt/~zujus/ zujus@mail.lei.lt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone said: > Where do I send my donation for the "James and Laura Fischer > World Domination Fund"? Keep your money. Or, toss it in the collection plate at a church somewhere. We have more than enough, which is why we give away some. (No, we did NOT make the money from bees.) The fund name (yes, it really exists) may have to be changed in light of all the recent "terrorist funding" concerns, but so far, our beancounters have not been visited by any polite young heavily-armed men in conservative suits and sunglasses. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:28:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ozark Electronics Subject: Re: Burlap test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might check a web site that concerns itself with sewing fabric, there are burn tests to determine the difference between natural and synthetic fabrics. They involve checking the color of the smoke and the ash and also, i think, the texture of the ash. I can't give a site as i don't have Internet access. Another place to look would be a site that concerned itself with Civil War era reenacting, using natural fibers is very important to these people. I hope this helps. Knox Adler Marthasville, MO On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:41:49 -0500 Milt Lathan writes: >Didn't I see a test here for determining whether burlap has plastic in >it? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:38:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > 5) I think that the person that did these tests was in much > the same boat I find myself. Clearly what could have been > of use would have been better descriptions and definitions > of exactly what "small cell" entails. (For example, Clay Huestis > made an excellent start of laying out some basic facts > in his post of Saturday, Dec 7, 2002). I'm not sure that > the person who did the tests described really understood > even as much as was explained by Clay. reply: That was the quick version too. After having read the study myself it became clear to me that those that performed the tests didn't go through the process of regression. Starting with bees on 5.4 sizing and jumping to 4.6 through 5.0 in a season just doesn't happen. It has been my experience that bees will not step down more than .2 to .3mm per season at most, along with transitioning each and every step. In my previous post I didn't mention that you need the bees to go through at least 2 brood cycles per step. It is these new bees that make the next generation of bees to step down not the old field bees, cycle repeats. > 6) As an aside, if more "small cell" posts were written like > Clay's, small cell would have MUCH more credibility > among the general beekeeping public. reply: I try to remain rather silent on the subject on this list even though I'm one of the proponets of small cell beekeeping . I've been flamed to many times. Actually I consider small cell range to be 4.7 or so and less. 4.8mm to 5.05mm to be about the middle range. I base this on reading and studying old books such as the Roots, Wedmore, Cowan, Philips, ect......everything I do I try to have studied and make a reasonable guess or answer for what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I'm no scientist and can only talk field management of bees. All I can tell is my observations, what I have done, lots of what doesn't work in regressing bees, and a bit that does. For the record and newbees, there is nothing easy about regressing bees. There are more aspects to small cell beekeeping than just the cell size. Not only does one have to regress but also breed bees. You need to spend time watch there behaviors, and choosing colonies with consistent small subcastes as these regress the best. Not to mention know what triggers in the season that effect different size cell drawing, when is the best window for getting small cells drawn?, when small cells can't be drawn? It is a hard thing for me to say " this is how you do it". No two colonies are the same they are all unique when it comes to regressing there is no magic chants or such. Its all hands on learning, after awhile you get a feel for things. As for small cell beekeeping here's a few things I know about.What to do with all those transition combs and culls? How to render those combs without rewiring? How to mill the wax back into foundation? I know the window of small cell drawing for "MY" area. The general procedure to regress (I posted this). What to do with the 2% of colonies that won't regress? How to work the combs in the hives to places of advantage and how and where to move culls to places for removal? How to put bees back on non-artifical feeds and have heavy hives for wintering and make honey? What kind of losses can be expected when switching to small cell? Different bee behaviors, or behaviors that are magnified? Winter cluster thermoregulation of SC bees (my theory only)? I have "every" colony at stake here so I take SC beekeeping rather seriously. I will never write any studies, nor probably publish too much. Only thing I'm looking to make is honey, some pollen, and healthy bees. So if anyone has questions about small cell beekeeping just ask? If I don't know the answer, I'll say so. regards, Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: CO2 - wintering - ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gases in a mixture do not segregate on the basis of density. Best regards Donald Aitken From: "Arne Haugaard" ...CO2 would fall to the bottom of hives this happens due to a higher density of CO2 than air when they both have the same temperature... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 06/12/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:23:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill, I just HAD TO REPLY to your comments about the OVER ABUNDANCE of propolis that you experienced with Carniolans. You must have had the YC-2k hybrid line or the old Hastings stock. Why do I say such a thing? I invite you to read the 4th paragraph of page 57 in the 1992 Extensively Revised HIVE AND HONEY BEE which says: The Carniolan bee collects LESS propolis than any other European race. However, in paragraph 1 of page 57, it states: The range of variation between the various strains of a. m. carnica is PROBABLY GREATER than any other known race (Ruttner, 1984). I trust Ruttner like the next thing to God, because he was an eminent scientist. Sue Cobey has "purified" the pedigree of the original Carniolan and calls it the New World stock. This is my 54th year with Carnies after having Italians for 16 years first. I rarely see any propolis when using NWC. As far as I am concerned, their propensity to swarm is their only negative. Have a fine holiday season! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:04:00 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Re: Dorothy Hodges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dorothy Hodges' "The Pollen of the Honey Bee" has been long out of print and second hand copies are in short supply. Does anyone know if her colour charts have been posted on the web. My search engine certainly can't find them. Ross Langlands ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:25:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, It was only one hive. I did not have the problem when I started with them but since I allow them to open mate and grow my own, I am sure the one hive picked up new genetic background. I bought the original ones from Strachen Apiaries in California. They were good, but the decendents were better. The over propolized hive is not longer with us. Always good to hear from you. Bill GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: >Hello Bill, >I just HAD TO REPLY to your comments about the OVER ABUNDANCE of propolis that >you experienced with Carniolans. You must have had the YC-2k hybrid line or >the old Hastings stock. Why do I say such a thing? > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis was born July 1, 1818. In 1844 he received his doctor’s degree and was appointed assistant at the obstetric clinic in Vienna. At this period in time puerperal fever was claiming the lives of many women who gave birth in European hospitals. Some thought the infection was caused by overcrowding, poor ventilation, the onset of lactation, or simply was the result of *miasma*. He proceeded to investigate the cause over the strong objections of his chief, who like many other physicians at that time, had reconciled himself to the idea that the cause was unpreventable. Semmelweis observed the death rate was 2 to 3 times higher in the first division as in the second division of the clinic. Both divisions in the clinic were essentially the same with the exception that students were taught in the first whereas midwives were taught in the second. He concluded that since students were coming directly from dissecting rooms to the maternity ward they carried the infection with them. Semmelweis implemented a program directing that hands be washed in a solution of chlorinated lime. Mortality rates dropped from over 18 percent to just over 1 percent, and in some months no deaths occurred. Younger medical men recognized the significance. His superior, however, remained critical. In 1861, his principal work was published as (translated) “Etiology, Understanding, and Prevention of Childbed Fever”. Generally the reaction was unfavorable. At a conference of German physicians and scientists most speakers rejected his doctrine. Semmelweis died a broken man in 1865. I have no idea if Doctor Semmelweis was a beekeeper or not. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa and winter Hi Mats: Here in Anchorage they, unfortunately, overwinter quite well. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:32:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I can do is add one year's unscientific observations. In May, I shook two colonies onto the 'small cell' foundation available from Thornes (actually about 5.1mm). They didn't like it, and one absconded; this could have been due to the change in cell size, but could just as easily have been due to starvation, as the weather was lousy, and another local beekeeper reported losing a colony which absconded at about the same time, apparently due to starvation. This colony was later replaced by a swarm, giving me two partly regressed colonies. One of these was lost when the queen became a drone layer in the autumn. Both colonies laid down ample winter stores; in previous years I've had to feed in autumn. After downsizing, both showed quantities of bald brood. I didn't dig around in the comb to see what was going on, but based on the reports of others who've seen the same thing in small cell colonies, I believe it to be a response to the presence of foreign organisms like mites or wax moth larvae in the cells. Consistent with this, I found that a large proportion of the mites falling out were transparent immatures, all bearing bite marks. I've never seen this before. This is all very unquantified and unscientific, as I wasn't well over the summer. All I can say is that some behavioural change appears to have occurred, involving the appearance of bald brood, and that this appears to correlate with the appearance of damaged immature varroa on the hive bottoms. Hopefully I may have something clearer to offer next year. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham, UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:49:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Fw: Calendrier Frere Adam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just in time for Christmas (Here's a rough partial translation) --- Hi everyone I just heard about a small 2003 calendar dedicated to Brother Adam and created by one of his past collaborators, Michael van der Zee. Learn more At : http://www.ekoprint.nl/bienenfr.htm ...French, German, Dutch and English. Info by email: info@ekoprint.nl . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean-Marie Van Dyck" To: "Liste Abeilles" Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:26 AM Subject: Calendrier Frere Adam > Bonjour à tous ! > > Je viens d'apprendre la création d'un petit (A5) calendrier 2003 dédié au > Frère Adam: créé par l'un de ses derniers collaborateurs bénévoles Michael > van der Zee. > > Un aperçu a l'adresse : http://www.ekoprint.nl/bienenfr.htm > > Il existe au moins une version en français et une en allemand, en > néerlandais et en anglais > > De magnifiques photos du Frère Adam, (qu'il fallait prendre à son insu car > il ne voyait pas la nécessité de figurer sur une photo) inédites à ma > connaissance, > mises en page avec goût ! > > Info par mail info@ekoprint.nl (en français sans (trop de) problème) > > Cordialement > Jean-Marie Van Dyck > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Heat and AFB In-Reply-To: <000301c29fff$04612f30$9e5ed4c7@keith> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reading the information just posted about dipping woodenware in 160 degree paraffin for 10-15 minutes as being a treatment for AFB makes me wonder. Has anyone tried simply baking woodenware at 160 degrees? Would this take care of AFB and how long would be needed? 160 degrees is within the operating range of a kiln (for drying wood), and some places will do custom drying and I suspect they would dry/bake woodenware. Has anyone done any tests (scientific or otherwise)? Is heat the answer or does the paraffin have something to do with it? -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:32:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Caucasian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I would like to try the caucasian bee, but I have heard that they >> tend toward excessive propolisation. Would I be sorry (read stupid) >> if I tried a season with this bee? I got about a hundred caucasian packages from a supplier in Claifornia many years ago. After all these years, and many thousands of hives, I still remember how calm and pleasant they were. They did propolise a bit more than some others, but I would very much recommend them for general hobbyist use. You'll love them if you get good ones. I ca't remember where I got them, but I think I mentioned the supplier here somewhere years back. I'll be in the archives. Fot that matter, the amount of surplus propolis build-up will depend on where you keep them. I remember Andy saying that gummed-up hives would use up all the excess propolis over time after being taken to desert areas where little or none was to be found. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:38:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Br. Adam and his Buckfast bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Received from one of the last coworkers of Br. Adam ... Br. Adam and his Buckfast bees. Who hasn't heard of them. Specially for the beekeeper we have designed a calender to sweeten the coming year 2003. Turnover to each month and relive the year with the beekeeper of the previous century. Available in English, French, German and Dutch. For a preview of this desktop calender http://www.ekoprint.nl Michael van de Zee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:56:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robert, > All I can do is add one year's unscientific observations. In May, I shook > two colonies onto the 'small cell' foundation available from Thornes > (actually about 5.1mm). reply: Yes, was this the Dadant foundation they were having problems with stretching while milling? I used a good deal of the stuff, it measured 5.05 to 5.07 on the horizontal and usuallly 5.0 to 5.01 on the diagonal. I cut most of it up into 1 1/2" starter strips and regressed a bunch of colonies on it. Starting with bees on 5.2 cell sizing they were able to regress from a range of 4.98 to 5.11. Which showed that the bees could actually go smaller than the cell pattern given, but most were in the middle. I believe I have a few of these combs left that weren't reprocessed into foundation. I tried at the same time using full sheets of foundation of the same type, the bees using the full sheets keyed in the best and made the most progress. Robert, are you using press plates to make foundation at this time? They didn't like it, and one absconded; this could > have been due to the change in cell size, but could just as easily have been > due to starvation, as the weather was lousy, and another local beekeeper > reported losing a colony which absconded at about the same time, apparently > due to starvation. reply: Most likely a combination. I learned a few other things too. Even with queen excluders (includers) if the equipment isn't tight they can still abscond. I lost three prime colonies(actually two, as one took residence in stacked supers) this season because I didn't plug the notch in the inner cover when regressing, nothing like learning the hardway. > Both colonies laid down ample winter stores; in previous years I've had > to feed in autumn. After downsizing, both showed quantities of bald brood. I > didn't dig around in the comb to see what was going on, but based on the > reports of others who've seen the same thing in small cell colonies, I > believe it to be a response to the presence of foreign organisms like mites > or wax moth larvae in the cells reply: This seems consistent. I have checked much bald drone brood this season. It appears that the bees do indeed know there is mites in the cells of the drones. Upon checking adjacent cells of the bald brood all appear healthy. But when digging into these bald brood cells varroa is almost always present. This was very apparent the first year. In the second year instead of as much bald brood the bees seemed to do much more chewing out of drone brood. I became aware of this when I spotted what looked like caulk brood being manifested at small cell colonies entrances this fall/ early summer. Upon inspection it was found that it wasn't chaulk but half chewed down drone pupaes being tossed out with occasional immature varroa. It seems that different colonies use different behaviors to keep varroa in check, but this is something I'm still observing and won't make to much comments on for now. At any rate there appears to be some consistency of this behavior amoung small cell hives scattered around the US and abroad. Using Common stock. Using Carniolan, russian, italian, hybrid, mongrel, caucasian, Lusbees, buckfast, SMR types I think almost all have been at least able to draw cells to 4.9 cell sizing, and some form of bald brood or chewing out seems common. regards, Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:13:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: A Question for the Statisticians In-Reply-To: <200203072226.g27LIrMJ020973@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200203072226.g27LIrMJ020973@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Edwards writes >My understanding is that the damage to colonies is not caused by directly by >varroa, but by the fact that they act as vectors for viruses. Of these, the >most significant are Deformed Wing Virus (DWV) and Acute Paralysis Virus >(APV). So a large infestation of varroa may not be a problem if DFW and APV >are absent, whereas a small infestation can cause severe problems where >these viruses are present. This is a rather belated reply. In the UK, the probability of colony demise increases above about 2500 mites. I believe the work did not differentiate amongst colony variables. I have not heard of severe problems with small infestations. Do you have a reference please. >Should we, therefore, be monitoring the presence of the viruses (how do we >do that?) I think we have to presume that once seen we have confirmed they are endemic. So the issue is susceptibility. But since the mechanism of transfer (injection during feeding) means that more varroa means more is transferred, we are back to numbers. > rather than getting obsessed about the actual number of varroa >present? If we find ways to assist the bees keep the numbers down to a sustainable level, then we have a solution. SMR, hygiene, and leg-biting have been demonstrated to work in different ways, though there may be a correlation between the last two, at least in the UK. IMHO we can select for and breed in our own bees these characters. I think this should be done for each successful race or strain in each country, or else you lose the best of your own strains by importing others' work as the "magic bullet". Monitoring numbers is part of this process. I took a risk last autumn and selected 4 colonies with OMF's to leave without treatment. 1 of these has few bees left, the other is weak and both now show DWV. I can rescue them with treatment and a few bees from stronger colonies as they were a good strain otherwise. I have started a co-operative project, with a group which we are calling the Cornwall Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Group, affiliated to BIBBA, which we call the Varroa Tolerance Project. We have fitted mesh floors to about 120 hives to date with the aid of a grant and hope to increase this considerably with further grants. I believe it can be done by careful selection, breeding and culling, with drone flooding from the best colonies. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:26:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Outside syrup tanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:55:54 -0700 TNT Apiaries writes: > > I don't know what is considered a fertilizer pump in your part of > the world, > but the ones used here for moving liquid fertilizer are the what > most > beekeepers use for syrup. May or may not be the same. I am referring to what we call 28% liquid nitrogen. This pump is a centrifugal pump powered by a five horse engine. I was not sure that this type of pump could move HFCS seeing that it is so thick. > . When I started I used a little thirty-five dollar brass one. Does this pump need to be brass? I was thinking of a gear drive hydraulic oil pump. These pumps will pump fairly thick oil. Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Warsaw, IN USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:19:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Br. Adam and his Buckfast bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I could find at this site was in some language that I could not read. How do I get the English edition? Lionel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:41:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa and winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/02 05:02:05 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Mites don't reproduce anywhere but in sealed brood, right? Do fall mites build up like fall bees so they can make it over the winter? How many percent of the mites in a hive in september make until march? Does anyone have any good information about all this? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden >> Do your hives really have no brood from September until March? In UK we are not too far south of you although generally somewhat milder I believe. I am not convinced that we have any totally broodless periods and they start to increase the brood area in early January as daylight increases. I don'e think Stockholm is in the Arctic Circle so I suppose your bees do the same. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:42:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim & All, >Reading the information just posted about dipping woodenware in 160 >degree paraffin for 10-15 minutes as being a treatment for AFB makes >me wonder. 160 F. will not kill AFB spores. > Has anyone tried simply baking woodenware at 160 degrees? 160F. baking will not kill AFB spores. > Would this take > care of AFB and how long would be needed? 160 F. is way to low to kill AFB spores. Many researchers say the actual temp is higher than the 300-350 F. claimed by many beekeepers. I know heat will kill spores but not sure of the exact temp. but positive that 160 F. is way to low. In fact paraffin will peel off bee equipment if dipped at 160 F. without warming the wood to the same temperature first. I found out the hard way with some hive top feeders I made years ago. I wish I had a dollar for every suggestion another beekeeper made which *did not* work. Wax peeled off later. > > Is heat the answer or does the paraffin have something to do with it? Those dipping bee equipment in paraffin say to heat the paraffin to almost the flash point or until smoking before dipping. Paraffin is a product of the petroleum industry and comes in several melting temps but is basically the same. Melting temps as low as 130 F. can be bought. I used to make and sell *dip& carve* candles. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:47:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Br. Adam and his Buckfast bees It's Dutch, and as they pretty much all speak English you can contect them here eMail:info@ekoprint.nl Or I'll translate if you want to email me tvaughan@charter.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:47:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarming Carnolians (was Caucasian bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mats, Sorry for the delay, but my wife of almost 60 years died on Monday, so I am just now catching up on my e-mail. Carnies are no different from any other race, except that they go to work in late winter and very early spring several weeks before other races. And it is THIS fact that beekeepers just DON'T ANTICIPATE. As Brother Adam has written, "Carnies EXPLODE in brood production and hive buildup in EARLY spring." He further states, If Carnies did not have the high propensity of swarming, they might be the best of all races of bees." What do I do? 1) All of my colonies have 3 medium (6 5/8") boxes for brood chambers all 12 months of the year. I start REVERSING brood boxes in late January and continue that as needed until I super on April 15th. I may have to REVERSE 3-4 time during this period. The whole idea is to provide empty laying space ABOVE the queen, so she never thinks about going back downhill. In February, perhaps you only have to reverse once, but as the hive builds population, you may have to reverse as often as every 7-8 days. 2) NO QUEEN IS EVER MORE THAN 12 MONTHS OLD, because an older queen cannot produce enough queen pheromone to spread it among a big population. I hate spring requeening because it messes up me honey production. Hence I requeen EVERY colony on September 1st, so their laying in January - April is fantastically good. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to prevent swarming! NOW, most highly successful commercial beekeepers requeen every year and some even twice a year! 3) Put ALL your supers of DRAWN COMB (never foundation) on your colonies on the same day! Do NOT add a 2nd super when the 1st is almost full. I put 5 empty supers on each colony on April 15th and that honey is removed and bottled before July 4th, and I average 132 pounds/colony where the official government estimate is a measly 29 pounds/colony. These 3 reasons are my secret of avoiding swarms. Before my strokes, I had 135 colonies, and lost perhaps 2-3 swarms per year. The BIGGEST SECRET is ALWAYS BE AHEAD OF YOUR BEES and never let them GET AHEAD OF YOU. I hope I have helped, and have a fine holiday season. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:10:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Heat and AFB > >Reading the information just posted about dipping woodenware in 160 >degree > paraffin for 10-15 minutes as being a treatment for AFB makes >me wonder. > > 160 F. will not kill AFB spores. This should certainly be 160 Centigrade, i.e. around 320 Fahrenheit. I have used this technique to preserve equipment and the boxes are as good now as they were when they were dipped around 20 years ago. At these temperatures the wax will have a haze of blue smoke and the process is a bit like deep frying! The water in the wood boils out and when you take the box out of the wax it 'dries' very quickly, giving the appearance that it has not been treated - if the wax is not hot enough then you are left with a coating of wax. I was concerned about the fire risk from a couple of hundred pounds of very hot wax and took precautions (lid for the tank and CO2 fire extinguisher) but found that this was not a problem. I used an old water tank which only needed to be about a third full and, although the wax did catch fire a couple of times, there was insufficient air in the tank for it to burn much - just a few flickers. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 04:28:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thorne's bought a stock of Dadant's messed-up small cell, and as far as I know are still selling it. It's OK for regressions, and from what I've seen so far the bees seem to do well on it once they've got adapted. I'm about to make a mould; I got delayed due to illness, but since I unexpectedly found myself with some sheets of plastic 4.9 last summer I intend to use some of that to make it. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham, UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:14:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Br. Adam and his Buckfast bees In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Available in English, French, German and Dutch. > >For a preview of this desktop calender http://www.ekoprint.nl/ Sorry the english page is on http://www.ekoprint.nl/bienenen.htm You can write to ... >Michael van de Zee in one of these languages ... English, Dutch, Arabic, French and German ! (Excuse from the poor !) Jean-Marie Van Dyck ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:39:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone done any tests (scientific or otherwise)? Is heat the answer or > does the paraffin have something to do with it? Go to the archives and search under "Heat AFB" and there is some information there. Regards Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:46:13 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Western Australia, wax dipping is done in a mixture of equal parts of microcrystalline wax and paraffin wax at a temperature of 160 real degrees, (ie Centigrade NOT Fahrenheit!!!). At this temperature,10 minutes immersion is required to kill the spores. Dry heat at around 200 degrees centigrade was used for many years by one commercial beekeeper here (now deceased) to kill AFB spores.Our state government Agriculture inspectors were very sceptical so tested the results and method very carefully. Happily they were able to confirm that it did result in 100% kill. But this is not a technique for the faint at heart!!! (Smoke, fumes and high fire risk). Peter Detchon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:01:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Moving pests In-Reply-To: <000a01c29f0c$573e7490$614b9a40@ws04> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Did you happen to notice if the combs in this feral colony were arranged in > the AY YA order as well? Hi Waldemar - I did not. It was 28' off the ground in the eave of the roof, and I was doing it as a sub for the homeowner's pest control guy so I didn't have the time to study the comb positioning. I did bring all the comb home with me and studied it there. I was able to find one piece of comb that had a cell pattern different than the rest and I guess as close to the "center comb" cell pattern as I have ever seen. http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/barry_12.htm It's just a small section and by no means a full comb, but nonetheless, transitional. I will be paying close attention to positioning of comb this coming year with any cut-out I do. I am also starting a modified TBH so I can allow my SC bees to build with no cell restrictions and see how they do size wise and positioning wise. I made the frames very big so I can see how they do with distribution of various size cells easier. http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/birkey/index.htm Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On this subject of wax dipping and AFB I saw a paper from the New Zealand Beekeepers Ass. several months ago on this subject stating that very hot wax did kill AFB spores. Unfortunately I have lost the website address and paper. Maybe our Australian friend could find it for us. Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:43:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Condolances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear George: I am sorry to hear of your wife's passing. We missed you at the Niagara meetings. Sounds like you've had a tough year, all around. On a different note, watch for next month's Bee Culture. Kim's running an article on the hybrid popular groves and the pesticide issues in Minnesota. I rushed from Niagara to MN, talked to the bee association, then toured the groves. I, Dan Mayer, and Kim all agree -- basic orchard management is needed. Groves are islands, spread amongst the farmland, with weedy understories of sweet clover, thistle, etc. Trees, being hybrid, make good worm food, so the grove managers spray and spray again. Similarly, more than 30 beekeepers are lining up in a class action suit against Bayer for Imidacloprid (North Dakota to Texas). Looks to me like a behavioral effect, as well as toxicity, with longer term persistence and more accumulation of the chemical than ever expected. Newest papers from France, this chemical at low levels effects bee memory, olfactory sensory system. Overall, pesticide misuse and abuse in the U.S. is as bad as it ever was in the 60s. We've (Univ MT) proposed establishing an information clearing center and test facility for pesticides (Mayer, myself) to serve the bee industry. A secondary purpose of the center will be education as well as to move some of our equipment into day to day use for bee management -- anti-theft devices, hive weight monitoring via networked national communications, etc. The Smithsonian Insect Zoo and Discovery TV both want to do displays/programs on our work. I'd like to establish a bee industry/pollination display in the Zoo, start a national bee program based on the Victory Garden format. Finally, we have submitted a paper for publication on bees conditioned to search for targets based on odor alone, with no reward at the target. In summary, bee olfactory system can detect a few parts per trillion, maybe even lower of explosives and other novel chemicals, the probability of detection out to 500 ft from the hive in 1 hour is near perfect (98% or better). The conditioning is done at the hive, more or less cancelling out any "dance" information, other than to recruit (maybe), more bees to the conditioning plates. Amazing results. Stats folks can't believe the results -- good thing they were blind test conducted by an independent group. If one pretends bees initially investigate the area around their hive (right after being delivered to the site) more or less randomly (which I have misgivings about), you can go to radar signal processing approaches and generate a Receiver Operating Curve. The bees beat any known radar system. They are a near perfect detector. We will be thinking about you. I want you to know that I appreciate your consistent call for good information, warnings against chemical use, etc. Too many arm chair experts with one or two hives and 1 season's experience. Thank you for your long term service to the industry. I hope your health will stabalize and that we will see you on the list for a long time. Best Regards Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Condolences Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All: I intended the previous message to go to George, not the list. I cut and pasted his address, but somehow my mail service sent it to all. Bottom line, agree or not with George, he's consistent, a font of information, and a supporter of the industry and students. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The approach of "dipping" equipment in paraffin and other waxes is a great way to preserve woodenware, but is (to my knowledge) not considered sufficient to decontaminate AFB-infected equipment anywhere but in New Zealand and Australia. Ditto for Sodium Hypochlorite (Clorox bleach). Even under controlled lab conditions, the results in trying to kill AFB by heating wax have been mixed (see below). But regardless of what has been seen when using lab gear, can anyone assure that any temperature can be achieved and maintained in a large vat of wax/paraffin? I think that a few thermocouples on long wires, moved around in a vat might be a real eye-opener. (Newer volt-ohm meters come with the ability to directly read thermocouples, which means that one can try this for well under $200 US) To attempt this with a wood fire and a vat large enough to hold beekeeping equipment is clearly not "lab conditions", and there will clearly be "warmer" and "cooler" areas within the mass of the heated wax. As an example of how universal this very basic thermodynamics issue is, go get a good oven thermometer, and check out the oven in your kitchen. You will find variations of temperature of 15 - 25 F in an oven set to "350 F", just by moving the thermometer around on the rack. (This is why bakers use fire-brick lined ovens, as the larger thermal mass overcomes this inherent problem.) If an oven with a thermostat and very large heating coil within mere inches of your thermometer cannot keep the temperature stable and even, what chance do you have with a wood fire and a vat bigger than your oven? Temperature variations can be a problem on the high side, too. 160 C is alarming close to 200 C, a good estimate of the flash point of paraffin (it can vary from mix to mix). You don't want to be anywhere near a large tub of paraffin that reaches flash point. As an aside, water will not extinguish a wax fire. A large amount of baking soda or sand will, but the usual 1-lb box of baking soda will not be enough for a fire involving such large amounts of paraffin or wax. Any of the CO2 or dry chemical (A/B/C) rated fire extinguishers will, but again, one, even a large one, will not be enough. If I were doing this, I'd want 6 big ones, lined up in a row. But I'd likely instead attempt to set a new personal best in my 100 meter sprint time if a fire started. :) When one slides woodenware into a wax bath, the wood itself is going to take time to heat up, and one is forced to wonder if the wax from the dipping tank is going to melt the wax in all the cracks and crevices where AFB can hide, or if the process simply covers up the AFB spores with a layer of wax/paraffin that may be "scavenged" at a later time by the bees, thus exposing the AFB spores. If one were to do a lye bath, to remove all wax from the woodenware, and then do the wax dipping, this might improve things a bit, but I just don't see the value of trying to "save" infected gear. The only actual part of a hive considered an "asset" by my beancounters is drawn comb. Everything else (bees and woodenware) have a "value" that is soon swamped out by costs of "maintenance, and one ends up with nothing but ongoing annual costs associated with "bees" and "woodenware", rather than a "value". (Yes, one can sell either, so they do have a cash value, but an honest man can't show either as an "asset" on books.) For all the money a bee club would spend making a "dipping tank", they could buy two very nice table saws, and start cranking out woodenware that was much cheaper than the store-bought variety, plus create a known-working local "standard hive body" to avoid bridge comb. When facing AFB, if you can't bear to burn the entire hive, consider scorching the woodenware with a torch. How much scorching is required? Just keep scorching the inside surface until you reach the point where you stopped scorching the outside. :) The published science on the subject of heat and AFB that I know of is focused on AFB spores in wax, in honey, or alone. I don't think that anyone has ever tried to study the case of "on woodenware". (Too many variables.) Burnside, C.E. 1940. "The thermal resistance of Bacillus larvae." J. Econ. Entomol. 33:399-405 Calesnick and White "Thermal resistance of Bacillus larvae spores in honey" Journal of Bacteriology Vol 64 1952 pp 9-15 I have the citations in my notes, but I don't recall ever reading either of the two above. Kostecki and Jelinski "Investigations on the sterilization of beewax for foundation production." Bulletin of the Veterinary Institute in Pulawy. 1977, 21: 1-2, 6-9; B "...it is suggested that wax from infected apiaries should either be extracted with carbon tetrachloride or sterilized in an autoclave at 121 deg C for 30 min..." (Note that "an autoclave" is one of the few known accurate heat chambers one can buy.) Hansen, Rasmussen, and Ritter "The sensitiveness of the foulbrood bacterium Bacillus larvae to heat treatment" Proceedings of the International Symposium on Recent Research on Bee Pathology, September 5-7, 1990, Ghent, Belgium. 1991, 146-148; Bd. "The wax was melted with steam at about 119 C. After melting, the wax was kept in a container for 15-30 min at about 80 C. In one of the batches a very light B. larvae infection was proved. In the remaining batches, B. larvae could not be found." ...but 119 C is a lower temperature. Machova "Resistance of Bacillus larvae in beeswax" Apidologie. 1993, 24: 1, 25-31 "The heat resistance of Bacillus larvae spores introduced artificially into beeswax was studied by exposing the wax to a temperature of 150 C and testing the viability of the spores at intervals. The number of viable spores in the wax decreased with time; initial concentrations in 2 samples of wax of 3X10^5 and 3X10^8 viable spores/g wax decreased to 0 after 20 and 60 min, respectively." So just as some AFB infections are worse than others, some infected equipment might need to be left in longer than others. Machova, Skrla, Bacilek, Vesely, and Peroutka "Experiences with beeswax disinfection by overheating" "In a test on an industrial scale, 400 kg wax, contaminated with 2.1 X 10^8 spores/g, were heated to 118? over 3 h 15 min, kept at the temperature for about 10 min, then allowed to cool. No chemical changes occurred, and all spores were killed." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Condolences On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0700, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: >All: > >I intended the previous message to go to George, not the list. I cut and >pasted his address, but somehow my mail service sent it to all. Bottom >line, agree or not with George, he's consistent, a font of information, and >a supporter of the industry and students. > >Jerry When I think of all the help he's been to me here on this list, and as well as answering my private question, I'm glad your condolences got posted by mistake. Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:14:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On this subject of wax dipping and AFB I saw a paper from the New Zealand Beekeepers Ass. several months ago on this subject stating that very hot wax did kill AFB spores. This subject has been hotly debated for years with little change. Hot wax dipping does seem to prevent the reoccurrence of AFB as the wax penetrates the wood and can kill/seal the AFB spores. Dry heat to the same temperature has not worked when tried by many beekeepers. Scorching with a torch has always worked for me. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The published science on the subject of heat and AFB that I > know of is focused on AFB spores in wax, in honey, or alone. > I don't think that anyone has ever tried to study the case of > "on woodenware". (Too many variables.) Well, I cannot quote the source (author), but there was a poster at the Niagara Falls meeting giving results of studies of AFB remaining viable in foundation and actually resulting in vegetative cases of AFB when given to clean hives. Conclusions drawn were thar AFB can remain viable in foundation and actually resulting in vegetative cases of AFB when given to clean hives. DUH! Observation was that the wax used to make the foundation hadn't been heated to a high enough temperature. DUH!! Heat the wax hot enough and it will kill AFB spores, whether in a vat of wax or on wooden equipment. The variable on wooden equipment is that the wooden equipment must remain in the vat of hot wax to assure that the temperature of ALL the wooden surfaces rise to an AFB-Lethal temperature. Same concept applies to wooden ware in a conduction vat of wax of a convection kiln oven. Raise the temperature to an AFB-lethal degree and the AFB WILL die. No need to carry the discussion further than quoting what is the AFB-lethal temperature, which I'd give right here, but I don't recall off the top of my head, I don't have any of 1000 beekeeping books at my fingertips to find the temperature and I'm too tired of this thread to surf to any of 100 web pages that will give the information. Aaron Morris - thinking heat is heat and lethal temperatures are lethal temperatures and assured that the debate will continue. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:35:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a very interesting topic. It is a great test of logic and perspective. Y'all know what I think. Let's change thje subject. I see that many missed out on Niagara (Idiots!). Baton Rouge and Kansas City are coming up. Don't miss out. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ (Outrageous opinion intermingled with boring personal stuff) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:25:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Moving pests (small cell saga) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert and Everyone, I observed the same change in behavior and took a few photos of the comb and debris in trays below a screened bottom board. I had hoped to provide better photo documentation this year but those hives that were almost overwhelmed with mites last year had very few mites as I posted here on bee-l. I could not find enough of this cleansing behavior to document with pictures this year. Your observations are valuable and don't need to be quantified or validated by anyone. Keep us posted on what you see. Best Wishes Dennis >After downsizing, both showed quantities of bald brood. I didn't dig around in the comb to see what was going on, but based on the reports of others who've seen the same thing in small cell colonies, I believe it to be a response to the presence of foreign organisms like mites or wax moth larvae in the cells. Consistent with this, I found that a large proportion of the mites falling out were transparent immatures, all bearing bite marks. I've never seen this before. > This is all very unquantified and unscientific ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L Moderator Subject: VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH] Please read this entire article before replying to messages or posting to BEE-L. It provides essential information for all BEE-L subscribers. BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join and submit articles for consideration. 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Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:48:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Palmer Subject: Re: Swarming Carnolians (was Caucasian bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Swarming Carnolians (was Caucasian bees) Question: How would you proceed if your honey supers had only undrawn foundation? Carol Palmer > 3) Put ALL your supers of DRAWN COMB (never foundation) on your colonies on > the same day! > > George Imirie > Certified EAS Master Beekeeper > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:38:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Heat and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: > The approach of "dipping" equipment in paraffin and other waxes is a great way to preserve woodenware... It seems that, at this very moment, they are discussing something very much like this on Argentine bee lists. Coincidence? allen --- From: "Ricardo PRIETO" To: Cc: Subject: [apicultura] PARAFINA Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:06:35 -0300 Estimados José y Horacio: Tengo entendido que la parafina no contamina. Sería bueno que si hay un trabajo o una opinión fundada en contrario, alguien la de a conocer. De lo que ha llegado a mi conocimiento, la parafina es apta para el manejo orgánico. Pero quiero hacer una acotación que considero importante: En función de la duración del material y de su presentación, el tratamiento con aceite de lino por inmersión en tibio( 50/60ºC), secado prolongado (meses) y lijado y pintado con sintético (2 manos) es ampliamente superior. La parafina NO filtra los rayos ultravioletas, que van carcomiendo las fibras y destruyen progresivamente la trama. Además, si bien no permite la proliferación de los hongos que son responsables de la pudrición de la madera (al igual que el aceite de lino) , con el tiempo se va ennegreciendo y en zonas calurosas esto puede ser un problema. Es importante aclarar también que es muy difícil conseguir aceite de lino puro en envases chicos (1, 4 o 20 litros) ya que se presenta frecuentemente adultearado con aceites de menos calidad, y entonces no seca o seca mal o no es una buena base de terminación. Yo lo compro directamente en fábrica en tambores de 200 litros. Cordiales saludos: Ricardo M. PRIETO prieto@infovia.com.ar Junín (BA) ARGENTINA "Que las abejas sean motivo de unión y de reunión de los apicultores" Arnaldo LUTSCHER > HOLA > Una persona me comento que la parafina deja reciduos en la miel y que estos > reciduos pueden traer problemas ante analisis quimicos. > ES VERDAD ESTO ? > Segun el hay que hacer lo mismo que con la parafina pero con aceite de LINO. > > Desde ya les agradezco sus respuestas. > Saludos. > > Jose Tomas Vigano > Bs. As. Coronel Brandsen > -- > Para desubscribirse, envie un mail a majordomo@interlap.com.ar > con subjet 'unsubscribe api-lista' > ================================================================ > http://www.interlap.com.ar - Tu Email POP3 Gratis. > http://www.interlap.com.ar/acceso - Accede Gratis a Internet. > http://www.interlap.com.ar/webhosting - Muda tu web a InterLAP. > ================================================================ > Universidad Nacional de Mar del Plata | > Republica Argentina | > Laboratorio de Artropodos - Facultad de Ciencias Exactas y Naturales | > Centro de Computos - UNMDP | > Para salir de la lista enviar un mail a majordomo@lists.mdp.edu.ar | > sin subject y en el cuerpo del mensaje escribir unsubscribe apicultura| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:55:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: hive tools on airplanes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Posted in hopes of saving another fellow beekeeper embarrasment! On a recent flight a fellow beekeeper forgot to put his hive tool in his suitcase and left the hive tool in his carry on bag. He was not allowed to carry the deadly hive tool on the plane *but* he was allowed to mail the hive tool to his home (at close to the price of a new hive tool). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:56:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Palmer Subject: Zone Alarm and AVG virus software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very recently the moderator of this list recommended virus protection and a firewall. Are Zone Alarm and AVG really the best? Is the moderator in a position to know and authoritatively speak on this subject? Thank you Carol Palmer