From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:17:19 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WEIRD_QUOTING autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216BE4856B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZcs011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0301A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 87264 Lines: 1853 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 22:14:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George T Subject: Happy New Year Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I wish to all of you a "Happy New Year",plenty of flowers for our bees, and a peacefull new year! George Tamas _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 09:52:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Digest Ivan Pechanec Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-354) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need to make up a single sheet of paper to hand to all my honey customers and "non-customers" that explains all the benefits of locally produced pure honey verus store bought "god only knows where it came from" honey. Asking for any information that readers of Bee-l have that would assist in the development of this paper. This fall I gave out samples of my honey in the neighborhood and included a small write up on the advantages of locally produced honey. I received zero subsequent requests for additional honey. I think my write up was lacking in "hard bullets" on the advantages of local honey. Also, I'm finding that most people just don't think about honey when they are looking for a sweetener "honey is for hot rolls" is the common response when I ask about its use. How can one change that thinking? Ivan(Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:55:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-354) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I need to make up a single sheet of paper to hand to all my honey >customers and "non-customers" that explains all the benefits of locally >produced pure honey verus store bought "god only knows where it >came from" honey. I see the above as negative . Putting down your competition turns many consumers off. Other than over processed the store local honey is not very different than the honey you are selling. >This fall I gave out samples of my honey in the neighborhood and >included a small write up on the advantages of locally produced honey. I see the above as positive. Price also enters in to selling local honey. Many buyers will buy a jar of honey from you at an event but revert back to buying the lower priced discount store honey for everyday use. > I received zero subsequent requests for additional honey. I think my >write up was lacking in "hard bullets" on the advantages of local honey. Takes time to build up a customer base. Don't give up! >Also, I'm finding that most people just don't think about honey when >they are looking for a sweetener "honey is for hot rolls" is the common >response when I ask about its use. >How can one change that thinking? Better than telling people the store honey is inferior is to point out the difference between honey and refined sugar. Refined sugar has long been shown to have health risks. Start selling honey to your friends , neighbors ,church people and fellow employees at work. They will feel obligated to buy a jar from you. When they find out what a wonderful product you are selling then you should get repeat business. Most hobby beekeepers sell all their excess crop before the first of every year. Waiting lists are not unusual. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:27:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-354) Comments: To: Digest Ivan Pechanec MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ivan (Kansas) wrote: “Asking for any information that readers of Bee-l have that would assist in the development of……..” Ivan and All, For years during the Christmas season I would give away as presents to my neighbors, a labeled 16 ounce "classic" glass jar full of my best sourwood or wildflower honey in hopes that not only that they would truly enjoy it and want more, but that they would also tell their friends about my honey and business would mushroom by word of mouth. Most of these folks kindly said, “THANKS” upon receipt of their gift, but the awaited responses of “MORE HONEY, MORE HONEY” from the neighbors and their friends never came. After about six (6) years of giving away about 25 pounds of sourwood honey a season to indifferent neighbors I decided that I would only give my honey to Family and old friends who lived out of state. In short, it has been my experience that giving away honey provides very, very little return except for the joy that I receive from just the gesture of giving. In about 95 % of the stores where I sell my honey, from country grocery to specialty and health food stores all over the Piedmont and the eastern Blue Ridge I have an index card describing my honey and how it is produced from the apiary to the honey-house as well as the healthy benefits of unfiltered unheated local honey. IMHO most young folks who buy my honey in these various stores know about the benefits of unfiltered unheated local honey; they are also the ones who tell their friends about the benefits of same. The older customers want the local honey because they grew up on it during the War when sugar was rationed and honey was one of the few sources of sweeteners. The index card really helps to key people in as to both process and authenticity of my business; and, that results in a greater amount of sales than my competitors, even though I charge a premium price to my retailers, and my retailers the same to their customers. When I sell my honey at local fairs and festivals I always sell it at the same retail price or higher as the local store which sells my honey; and I give out on plastic spoons samples for tasting of both my wildflower and my sourwood Honey. Very often you will have passer-bys say “I know what honey tastes like”; that’s when I really have to go to work. I ask “what brand of honey do you usually buy? If it is from another local beekeeper, I usually acknowledge the worthiness of that beekeeper’s honey and give credit to the prudence of buying locally. If it is from a chain grocery store “brand” which means blended imported highly filtered and heated, I’ll take out that same “brand” from under the counter and ask (even dare) the customer to take a taste test. First, I give a taste of the customer’s “favorite”, then my wildflower, then my sourwood. Usually about four seconds after the wildflower first hits the taste buds there is an exclamation about “I didn’t know honey tasted like this!” Then, I give a taste of the sourwood; and, usually I will make a sale of either sourwood or wildflower honey. The new customer will go away with a smile on his/her face and will know the name of the local retailer(s) in order to get more honey. During these fairs and festivals I also give out free recipes and the same index card that’s in the stores where my honey can be purchased, but with more information on the back of the card. That index card helps to provide continuity from my honey booth to the retail store; it also acts as a catalyst in conversations between old and new customers in finding my products on the retail shelf, “The One With The Index Card”. I also talk about bees, honey, pollen, enzymes and the published findings about more antioxidants in darker honey, take my wildflower please! Occasions like these are also good opportunities to tell folks about what has been happening to the feral honeybee and how important honeybees are to the future of America and the world. Good fortune on your honey sales and HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC By the way, after I stopped giving away honey to my neighbors, just one neighbor told me that he missed my Honey, he now gets a quart of my best every year. One more thing: I really wish that the National Honey Board, http://www.nhb.com would work hard nationally to promote local honey and its benefits; and, IMHO the imported highly filtered and heated stuff does have its place: On the grocer’s shelf. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 01:52:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Wintering bee problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bryan: Eva Crane says this in her book: ‘Bees and Beekeeping’: “Colonies that are buried in snow seem to suffer remarkable little damage, but if snow covers the ground without blocking the flight entrances, and the sun shines brightly, bees are stimulated to fly out; absorption of sunlight by the hive walls increases the temperature inside the hive, and reflected light from the snow at the flight entrance has a smaller effect. A flying bee normally receives most light from the sky above, but because the snow is much brighter than the sky, the angular light distribution (ALD) above snow-covered ground is reversed (Velthuis & Verheijen, 1963). The bee therefore flies upside down, in a disoriented way, and crashes on the snow, where she dies of cold. While snow is on the ground, a board placed so that it darkens the full width of the entrance can prevent most of these deaths. In certain circumstances, not well understood, honeybees and other insects can adjust to the reversed ALD, and fly without difficulty over sunlit snow. But flying bees have been observed to crash land on white coral and sand beaches in Wake Island during bright sunshine (Hitchcock, 1986), probably also because the ALD is reversed.” Velthius, H. H. W.; Verheijen, F.J. (1963) Why the combination of sun and snow can be fatal to honeybees. Bee Wld 44(4): 158-162 Although we don't seem to pay that much attention to them on bare ground, dead bees and feces are always around the hives. I seem to notice more dead bees in front of my hives after a fresh snowfall, too. Like most beekeepers, I’m generally not too concerned about it. If dead bees are seen in the snow, it must mean there are still live ones in the hive. In the ‘Bee Tidings’ newsletter, Marion Ellis had some thoughts similar to those already mentioned by others here on dead bees in the snow: http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2001/btdapr01.htm#Article2 Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-354) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ivan: Ivan Pechanec wrote this: >This fall I gave out samples of my honey in the neighborhood and included a small write up on the advantages of locally produced honey. I received zero subsequent requests for additional honey. To which Chuck Norton replied with this: >Most of these folks kindly said, ““THANKS”” upon receipt of their gift, but the awaited responses of ““MORE HONEY, MORE HONEY”” from the neighbors and their friends never came. I used to give out free honey, too, hoping it would bring in the customers. It didn’t. I imagine they enjoyed the honey though. I quit giving it away quite as often. It still makes great gifts, and the immediate neighbors get a little for free since I live in the city. But I’ve given up on trying to woo people with free stuff. What I have done, though, is to give out a little extra now and then or sell it for a bit less to really good customers. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:24:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-354) To ALL: Please see the corrected URL below for the National Honey Board, my apologies for the mistake. Chuck Norton WAS: "One more thing: I really wish that the National Honey Board, http://www.nhb.com would work hard nationally..." Should be: http://www.nhb.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:37:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Wintering bee problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All An illustration that stuck in my mind... I once replaced the roofs (outer covers) of a whole apiary, with ones that had brand spanking new 'Spangled galv' metal covers. It was quite comical to see the bees flip upside down as they flew over them. most crashed, but some made it to the other side and flipped normal again. I put this down to reversal of the polarisation of the light, caused by the reflection from the shiny surface... would snow also do this polarisation reversal? Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Selling Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another Great Year is Upon Us, Bee Brethren: A hobbyist, now entertaining to move up to be a sideliner, I have never given away my honey free except to my in-laws and exceptionally *special* people around me. To say the obvious, giving away free honey is a dastardly disservice to another beekeeper. Whenever I feel the urge to give it free to someone, I try *hard* to remember the heat, the sweat, the sting, the gas, the overhead, the backache, and the hours of free labor I had rendered to procure the elixir. Hence, nothing is free, and I have been selling $10 per quart, for three years now, while the local Atwood’s sells, I think, about $6, a fact I always remind my customers of, should they want something cheaper. I never negotiate my price; mine is local while the store-bought honey ain’t. Now I have sold all I had produced last year except six quarts--left to my name. To nickel and dime is counter-productive for a commercial beekeeper or someone who produces more than a dozen barrels of honey a year. But a hobbyist or a small sideliner might try the old-fashioned door-to-door sale by visiting large groups of people *with a prior appointment.* Here are suggestions, some proven, others planning: 1. Whenever giving a bee-talk to, say, schools, police/fire departments, and gardening clubs—-always sell your honey after the talk, after you had *primed* them with a bee-fever-pitch. A PowerPoint presentation plus an observation hive should whet their appetite and wet their tongue. It’s even better to have your visit announced, in advance, so that they will bring their pocket money on that day or visit on their payday. 2. Visit the banks you deal with and often they will keep boxes of honey and sell it to their customers for you. A loan officer sold a case for me, having herself bought three quarts. [it was great to collect the money from the bank, for once] 3. As mentioned by others, sell at your work: this practice created, for me, many a return customer and they would ask me when my honey will be ready in a given year. People would button-hole me in the hall ways to talk about the honey and my bees. During X-mas this year, a colleague had thought my honey would be a great gift that he bought a whole case. 4. Mainatain the swarm-retrieval data—-the date, weight, wind, temp, height, address, phone number, email addresses, and names—so that you can call them up when you are ready to sell. They often think it is *their* swarm that produced the honey! 5. Find a local factory—-the larger, the better—-and visit there and sell. Make your visit an annual event. Once I took my honey to a real- estate agency and sold a case in a week, having left it there. Some companies have policies against sales visit: don’t try Lowe’s or Wal Mart—- even though their employees wanted. Instead, pass the word around among the employees so that they will contact you later. 6. County/State Fairs are great; so are local farmers markets. So are local “Old Tractor Shows” in late June. I am planning to sell my spring honey there this year for the first time. 7. Nursing homes and retirement homes, I found having retrieved a swarm there once, are possibly the best place you can take your cases of honey to sell. These blessed folks have tasted the real thing when growing up, especially comb honey, so that their bones ache for the nostalgia of the past as well as the real substance of the present. 8. Most of my honey goes to a local Feed Center where they sell it at $12.95. [I still sell to them at $10 per quart, period] Initially I was shocked at their stiff price, which was almost the double of the Atwood’s price, but the savvy manager told me, “In selling business, you never want to start low.” And they were selling. 9. Remember there are people who plum don’t like honey. Don’t bother them. In Shawnee, Oklahoma, my bees are going at the pollen substitute like crazy; it’s already time to *prime” my bees—-before the Big Bang about two and a half months way. Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Selling Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something missing in the comments about giving honey away to neighbors and friends to create a market is the place of honey in most homes. It is near zero. You cannot fill a need when there is none. A walk through a grocery store shows honey in a niche product at best. About the only sweetener in less supply is molasses. So if you give it to people in the hope it will create demand, it is very unlikely since most are content with sugar, ersatz maple syrup, corn syrup, jams, jellies or artificial sweeteners. The best sales areas are fairs, farmer's markets and local health food stores. Or just put a sign out and sell from your home like several in our area do. You will get the people who want local honey for perceived health benefits as well as taste. They are your sales base. I enjoy selling at fairs because the people who stop are interested in honey and bees and will buy if you show any interest in them. Also, here, free samples do help sales, especially creamed honey. We were selling none of the tubs until we put out some honey gram crackers and spread a little creamed honey on top. All gone in an hour. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: maple syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >....most are content with sugar, ersatz maple syrup, corn syrup, jams, jellies or artificial sweeteners. There is more to maple syrup than just sugar. >From the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual (Bulletin 856, Ohio State University Extension Service): “Sucrose is the most prevalent sugar, comprising 98-99.9% of the dry matter of sap. [It can also contain up to about 0.17% glucose.] This leads to a misunderstanding by the casual observer that sap is just sugar water. If that were true, sap would not sustain the life of the tree. It is that small percentage (2.0% or less) of amino acids, organic acids, phenolic compounds, hormones, minerals and salts, and other components that allows sap to be the physiological liquid, with the right pH and buffering capacity, responsible for helping initiate growth within the tree.” In maple syrup, sucrose accounts for 88-99% of its dry weight with hexoses accounting for 0-12%. The amino acids and some organic acids are responsible for the characteristic “maple” flavor. Both honey and maple syrup contain these organic acids: oxalic, succinic, fumaric, malic, tartaric, citric. Maple syrup has an average, in mg/L, of these vitamins: Niacin, 276; Pantothenic Acid (B5), 600; Riboflavin (B2), 60. It also contains trace amounts of Folic Acid, Pyridoxie (B6), Biotin, and A. Minerals in maple syrup, in ppm, are potassium, 1300-3900; calcium, 400- 2800, magnesium, 12-360, manganese, 2-220. Lesser amounts of sodium, phosphorus, iron, zinc, copper, and tin are also present. Light honey contains on average, in ppm, potassium, 205; calcium, 49; magnesium, 19. Dark honey contains on average, in ppm, potassium, 1676; calcium, 51; magnesium, 35. Last spring a few messages were posted here on the feasibility of feeding maple syrup to bees to produce “maple honey”. From The Hive and the Honey Bee: “Honeydews are not considered suitable for winter stores......Temnov (1958) lays the toxic effects principally to the mineral salts, especially potassium.” Given the high amount of that mineral in maple syrup, it doesn’t look as though it would be the most healthy source of food for bees. Calories: Maple syrup 252/100g Karo brand corn syrup 295/100g Honey 304/100g Molasses 252/100g Here honey loses out with weight watchers. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:56:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: maple syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >....most are content with sugar, ersatz maple syrup, corn syrup, jams, jellies or artificial sweeteners. >There is more to maple syrup than just sugar. I agree that real Maple syrup should not be included above. In my opinion (and many in the medical field) many health risks are associated with heavy use of refined sugars as posted above and artificial sweeteners (Aspartame). Pure honey and maple syrup would be a healthier choice in my opinion than refined sugar, corn syrup or artificial sweeteners (without nutritional value) but realize many consumers are not concerend about the nutritional value of the food they eat. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: kgbenson@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith G. Benson" Subject: Re: maple syrup On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:56:17 -0600 Bob Harrison wrote: > Pure honey and maple syrup would be a healthier > choice in my opinion than > refined sugar, corn syrup or artificial > sweeteners (without nutritional > value) but realize many consumers are not > concerend about the nutritional > value of the food they eat. Precisely why are honey (basically a super saturated sugar solution, refined by bees) and Maple sugar (a near saturated sugar solution, produced in a very refined state by the trees), superior to table sugar or corn syrup? Just because something is refined does not make it inherently inferior. The problem with these products comes in when they are overused at the expense of more nutritious substances - something that can be done with maple or honey as well. The trace minerals found in maple and honey are in such low quantities per calorie as to be largely inconsiquential from a nutritional stand point. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:00:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: massimiliano Subject: Grapefruit seed extract to control of american foulbrood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dears Friends, in a recent convention in Italy (Rimini 11-12 december UNAAPI) a beekeeper in collaboration with Doctor S. Calvarese, report of miraculousus results in recovery of twenty colony affected with american foulbrood using Grapefruit seed extract. No details was given about somministration modality. Is there anybody was know something about grapefruit seeds extract and their effects on american foulbrood? Thanking in advance, Massimiliano Gotti Apiarian Inspector Aspromiele Piedmont, Italy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:27:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: refined sugar health risks Comments: To: kgbenson@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith wrote: Just because something is refined does not make it inherently inferior. Volumes have been written and research done about the problems with refined sugar. As far back as 1929 , Dr. F.G. Banting, THE DISCOVER OF INSULIN, gave a forthright warning on the USE OF REFINED SUGAR. I quote from page 45 of the book "Honey and your Health" by Beck and Smedley a quote by Dr. F.G. Banting in 1929. "In the U.S. the incidence of DIABETES has increased proportionately with the per capita consumption of cane sugar. In the heating and recrystalization of the natural sugar cane, something is altered which leaves the refined product a DANGEROUS FOODSTUFF". Is not the rising incidence of diabetes one of the most urgent medical problems in the U.S.today? Dr.Banting's warnings fell on deaf ears in 1929. Please research the problems with refined sugar on the net as tens of thousands of sites with information exist. I have made up my mind years ago. Zero Aspartame and refined sugar for me! Diabetes is a terrible illness and runs in my family! My uncle put two tablespoons of refined white sugar in each cup of coffee. He died of diabetes around middle forties. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Pallets I am planning on getting into beekeeping such that a pallets would be needed. Does anyone use plastic pallets? I'll try to include a link to a company I see advertising them: www.beekeeperspallets.com I am interested in feedback on them. Their site only mentions them being more slippery when wet. Thank you. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: maple syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>....most are content with sugar, ersatz maple syrup, corn syrup, jams, >> >> >jellies or artificial sweeteners. > > > >>There is more to maple syrup than just sugar. >> >> Ersatz- substitute, inferior quality, fake... The maple syrup I sited is the stuff on the grocery shelves, ie Log Cabin (which may or may not have a drop of maple syrup). I purposely did not include real maple syrup. The original thread was how to hype honey, including giving it away. I still submit that honey is a niche product ( as is real maple syrup, which is why it was not included) and not generally bought as a staple, like sugar is, no matter what the health issues might be. So the way to sell honey is to target the small group that buys it and expand that market by fairs and farmer's markets - or home sales. Bill Truesdell (remind me not to use ersatz words) Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:34:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Organization: Superbee Subject: Honey/Sugar and HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whilst we are on the subject of honey and other sweeteners, I thought I = might see if any of the members of this group have any in depth = knowledge concerning the adulteration of honey by the feeding of sugar = syrup, or hfcs, to increase production. Also of concern is the addition = of hfcs to honey after extraction. The Pancyprian Beekeepers Society is = very concerned about the adulteration of honey by any of the above. The = Cyprus state laboratory seems incapable of distinguishing pure honey = from adulterated, either locally produced or imported from other = countries. Does anyone know if these substances are difficult to = detect? If indeed they are detectable and most importantly, does = anyone have the address (worldwide) of a laboratory that can do these = tests for the society, they need a laboratory that can do all the tests = and give a written report. =20 Roger White Superbee Cyprus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:32:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bryan Isaac Subject: Wintering bee problem - Thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just wanted to thank everyone who replied to my query on the wintering = bee problem. As a person new to beekeeping I am trying to bring myself = up to speed in learning the craft and find reading this listserv to be = extremely useful.=20 Thanks to all for helping a novice. Bryan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:53:46 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: > I quote from page 45 of the book "Honey and your Health" by Beck and Smedley > a quote by Dr. F.G. Banting in 1929. > "In the U.S. the incidence of DIABETES has increased proportionately with > the per capita consumption of cane sugar. In the heating and > recrystalization of the natural sugar cane, something is altered which > leaves the refined product a DANGEROUS FOODSTUFF". The quote above is 100% fact-free pure poppycock. It exceeds the FDA-recommended minimum daily adult allowance for "unadulterated horse manure" by a wide percentage. I don't care who might have said it. It's wrong. Completely wrong. Refined cane sugar is no more or less "dangerous" than pure honey. Refined cane sugar is nothing but crystallized sucrose. Sucrose is glucose and fructose, bound together by chemical bonds. The sugar refining process "alters" nothing. In fact, the refining process is an excellent way to insure that one removes everything except the sucrose. If there were impurities, one would not get tidy little consistent white crystals. Honey is also mostly glucose and fructose, but in the form of separate sugars rather than bound into sucrose. Honey also contains a small amount of sucrose (larger percentages of sucrose result from specific nectar sources, such as orange blossom honey). >From your body's point of view, there is absolutely no difference between the glucose and fructose found in honey, and the glucose and fructose that results when it breaks down cane sugar. There is also no difference at all from your body's point of view between the glucose it gets from cane sugar, the glucose from honey, or the glucose from a bowl of pasta, a potato, a beer, or any other form of carbohydrate. Carbohydrates are starches, which your body breaks down into (surprise!) glucose. The hydrolysis of starch is done by a process called "amylases". With the aid of an amylase (such as pancreatic amylase), water molecules break the chain of sugars that make up a starch, and produce a mixture of glucose and maltose. ("Maltose" is nothing but pairs of glucose molecules, resulting from starch "digestion".) It is funny that this thread should appear on Bee-L just now, as I recently drafted an article intended for Bee Culture about sugars, artificial sweeteners, the "health marketing" associated with sweeteners, and where honey stands in all the noise, confusion, and outright fraud. When one is married to a serious baker, the holidays force one to do extensive "quality control testing" of a variety of sweet things as they exit the ovens, so I had ample opportunity to think about the various "sweeteners" lined up on the pantry shelves. Most of the increases in diabetes and obesity come from MASSIVE OVER-INDULGENCE in sugars and carbohydrates. There are, of course, a small number of people who were dealt very bad hands of genetic cards, and are diabetic or obese for reasons beyond their personal control. jim (who had an unbelievably attractive biochem instructor, and paid rapt attention) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: Spring Seminar in Albany NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On March 22, 2003, an all-day presentation of top-notch speakers will take place on the State University of New York (SUNY) Albany campus. This year, we have an excellent group of the bee world greats. Our confirmed speakers are: Dr. Thomas Seeley Professor of Neurobiology and Behavior and Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Associate Professor of Entomology both of Cornell University; Kirk Webster, northern Vermont commercial beekeeper and queen breeder; and Jim Tew, Associate Professor of Entomology at Ohio State University, well known author of several books and innumerable Bee Culture articles. Topics will be finalized soon. A block of discounted rooms will be reserved at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across the street on Washington Ave. When people call to reserve rooms, they should call by Feb. 22 and mention the “beekeeping seminar” to get the discount. The cost for the seminar will be $25 per person or $15 for spouses. This includes a morning coffee/snack break. Attendees will be able to use the 4 cafeterias on campus, or drive a short distance for a variety of small restaurants. If registering after March 8, a $10 late charge will be added to each person’s fee. A raffle or silent auction of items donated by dealers will take place as well. Spring into Beekeeping! Thank you for your interest, Anne Frey, SABA President AnneF@capital.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 05:50:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Selkie Lass Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks In-Reply-To: <01C2B38B.BD1A5200.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Question about maple sugar vs honey, and the question about 'Maple Honey' gave me an Idea. I have a photocopy of an old (Turn of the century) beekeeping book that advises the beekeeper to extract the green (Unripened) honey as quickly as the bees can gather it, for as long as the honey flow lasts, then, once the honey flow is over, and the bees are Idle, feeding the honey back to the bees and having them make comb honey of it. At the time it was written, the price difference between extracted honey and comb honey was such that hr (And by implication anyone using his sytem) could make many times as much money selling the resulting comb honey. With this in mind, I wonder if it would be possible, during a time when no strong nectar flow was on, to feed maple syrup (The real stuff.) to the bees and coax them to store it away in comb honey boxes, rounds or casettes as a novelty. The resulting "Maple Honey" would likely be blended by the bees with whatever honey was coming in at the moment, but it might just be really tasty-probably too expensive for anything but a novelty gift for family and perhaps other beekeepers, but it might be fun. If, that is, it would work at all. Would Maple Syrup process down into a "honey" that would be stable when stored in the comb? Real Maple syrup is never, in my experience, as thick as honey. Would the bees thicken it to Honey consistancy when storing it? Would it ferment in the comb? Would it crystallize? If anyone has played around with this, I'd love to hear about your experience. I'm considering playing with a variation on this with my backyard hive. I belong to a group that has a running joke about "Northwoods Brown Mead" that is: Coca Cola. People have actually taken Coke Syrup and made "Mead" out of it using home-brewing recipies. (Alcoholic and Caffinated- I have heard it packs quite a whallop.) A pefect gift next christmas for these punnsters would be a box or two of "Northwoods Brown Honey"; Coke Syrup Packaged by the bees in comb honey form. These Cola addicts will probably the stuff on their morning tost. If I do this early in the season, so that the bees aren't storing it away for winter, will feeding cola syrup to the bees do them any harm? I have heard of bees storing away drink syrups stolen from packaging plant spills, but have never heard if it does the bees any harm. Can any of you enlighten me? (Do caffeine and bees mix?) Now, before anyone throws a hissy- I'm contemplating doing this for a lark, have no intention of markenting it, and have no intention on misleading anyone as to the non-floral nature of my "Un-Honey" The fact that it's Cola is the whole point of the . I'll be satisfied if I get one comb super of this stuff for gifts. So any reason Not to try this? Ellen In Michigan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:49:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, Thanks to James for presenting the sugar lobby point of view. If I believed that the use of refined sugar over a long period of time was not harmful I might have posted the same information as my friend James. I respect Jim & Keith's opinion but believe the opposite. I am sure we can "agree to disagree". The refined sugar debate is similar to cigarettes as far as science goes. example: The highest incidence of lung cancer is in people which smoke cigarettes. Science (and the tobacco lobby AT ONE TIME SAID) says "there is NO PROOF smoking causes lung cancer". The highest incidence of diabetes is in people which consume refined sugar. Science (and the sugar lobby) say (for now) "there if no proof the use of refined sugar causes diabetes. The refined sugar business is huge compared to beekeeping and the sale of honey (and those sugar barons plan on keeping the Lion's share of the business). Rough estimate from recent figures: AVERAGE American ingests 100 pounds of refinned sugar per year. Average American use of honey is about one pound per year. I would like to see the refined sugar and pure honey average use reversed. 100 pounds of honey use and one pound per year of refined white sugar use would in my opinion be a healthier choice. Take a five pound bag of sugar and pour out about half the bag. Quite a load for your body to handle EACH WEEK! Bob Ps. Please do not get me started on Apartame use in diet drinks. Aspartame is only still in use because of the large soft drink producers and their fuzzy science! Coca Cola refused to use Aspartame in the 80's (at first) because of well known health risks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:11:01 -0500 Reply-To: kgbenson@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith G. Benson" Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:49:39 -0600 Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello James & All, > > Thanks to James for presenting the sugar lobby > point of view. What he posted would better be described as the science and nutrition lobby point of view. > If I > believed that the use of refined sugar over a > long period of time was not > harmful I might have posted the same > information as my friend James. Belief is the operative word, but I think it would be better to stick with what we *know*. There are a lot of things about the sugar cane industry that make it an easy target, they are hardly angels. But getting back to the original question: can you tell me why the sugars in table sugar are inferior to the sugars in honey. Can you tell me what this alteration brought on by refinement is? > I respect Jim & Keith's opinion but believe the > opposite. I am sure we can > "agree to disagree". We can always do that! That is how people get on in this world. But this is an interesting discussion, and it bears on what is, or is not, ethical to claim when one describes the benefits of honey over sugar. It also has bearing on what we feed to bees. On one of the other lists there was the position put forward that honey was an inherently superior bee feed, and that were one to feed bees sugar syrup (even organic sugar syrup), that the honey that came from that hive later could not be called organic. It was also contended that feeding honey would sustain a colony for a longer period of time than sugar syrup, all things being otherwise equal. No data was presented, but there was a "belief" and a desire that this be true. It might sound better, might feel better to some, but the question really is - is it actually better? > The refined sugar debate is similar to > cigarettes as far as science goes. Not even close. > example: > > The highest incidence of lung cancer is in > people which smoke cigarettes. > > Science (and the tobacco lobby AT ONE TIME > SAID) says "there is NO PROOF > smoking causes lung cancer". Science ended that story long before the fine folks of the tobacco industry. "Science" (can sience actually say anything?) is also not saying that eating ridiculous amounts of simple sugars is not bad for you. No one on this list is saying that. What some are debating is your contention that were those sugars from honey, the impact would be reduced. Me, I am asking how you came to that conclusion, and what your evidence is. I am not even interested in a reference at this point - merely some realistic, nutritional, physiologic, or biochemical explanation. How is it that the perfectly natural sugars from cane juice, become "bad" when refined by people, whilst the perfectly natural sugars in nectar are somehow untainted when refined and processed by the bees? > The highest incidence of diabetes is in people > who consume refined sugar. Generally speaking the incidence of diabetes also follows the reduction in physical exercise that members of our society gets, the increase in readily available calories in our society and a net change in the calories in, calories out equation. Sugar plays a role as it is rich in energy (calories) is easily assimilated, but provides little other nutrition. There are an enormous number of variables. To ignore them all is to delude oneself, come to the wrong conclusions, and hamper the search for a cure. Heck, one could argue that the movement from and agrarian to industrial to an information-based economy has done more to increase diabetes rates than any sack of sugar. > Science (and the sugar lobby) say (for now) > "there if no proof the use of > refined sugar causes diabetes. I have never heard anyone put it quite that way, and again, you are grossly oversimplifying. Any diabetologist will tell you that over consumption of any readily assimilated calorie rich foodstuff, with a concomitant lack of exercise, can lead to diabetes in those individuals prone to it. Sucrose factors in here, but it is not inherent in the nature of sucrose, or the processing thereof - it is in the way it is used. You can do the same thing with other simple sugars, like those found in honey, corn syrup, maple syrup etc. > The refined sugar business is huge compared to > beekeeping and the sale of > honey (and those sugar barons plan on keeping > the Lion's share of the > business). Virtually every business strives to command the lion's share of the market - let is not start down the sugar conspiracy road . . .. ;) >Rough estimate from recent figures: > > AVERAGE American ingests 100 pounds of > refinned sugar per year. > > Average American use of honey is about one > pound per year. So, why do you think that is? Could it be that it is simply far more available, easier to use in baked goods (for most people), that there is a cultural preference for a granulated product, that sucrose is relatively bland aside from the sweetness and this allows one sweeten a food without changing the flavor? Many, many reasons for this. Lets not forget the biggie - it is far far easier to produce a 10lb sac of sugar than a nice 10 lb jar of honey. So it is more available, and is used more, that simply does not prove that sugar is inherently deficient in some way based on its level of refinement. > I would like to see the refined sugar and pure > honey average use reversed. Sure, nice thought, but the market would never bear it. Also, despite the fact that I know you have already chosen not to believe this, I would suggeest that it would make little difference. What needs to happen is that the overall caloric intake of the American people has to be reduced, and they need to live more active lifestyles. I am certainly included in this as I type while sitting on my duff. > 100 pounds of honey use and one pound per year > of refined white sugar use > would in my opinion be a healthier choice. And you are certainly entitled to that opinion. I might ask though, on what facts do you base this assertion? > Take a five pound bag of sugar and pour out > about half the bag. Quite a load > for your body to handle EACH WEEK! Yes, it is - and it would be no different if you were slugging back 2.5 lbs of honey per week, from a nutritional point of view. Again, may I ask (and get this discuccion back on the origional track), what changes are wrought by refinement that make sugar A) inferior, and B) more diabetogeneic than honey? Keith "not a member of the sugar lobby, just a little ol' zoo veterinarian" Benson > Ps. Please do not get me started on Apartame Ø use in diet drinks. OK - you have a deal. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: > Thanks to James for presenting the sugar lobby point of view. The "sugar lobby" cannot change basic chemistry any more than the HFCS lobby, the artificial sweeteners lobby, or anyone else. The great thing about chemical processes is that they are easy to verify with one's own experiments. One can line up cane sugar, beet sugar, corn syrup, AND HONEY on a lab bench, run them through the same set of chemical processes (simulating a mammal's digestive processes), and end up with the same exact "simple sugars" at the other end of the lab bench. Similar experiments are common entries in Junior High School science fairs, so this is not a complicated thing. Bottom line, glucose, fructose, and starches (like cellulose) are the most abundant organic molecules in the biosphere. Without them, everything dies. Eat too much of them, and you also die. Eat the "right" amounts, and you live a "normal" lifespan. But you still die. When you die, you decompose into nutrients that get converted by plants into glucose, fructose, and starches, starting the cycle again with new players. It's called "life". It has a beginning, a middle, and an end for all participants. "It's too bad she won't live. But then again, who does?" (Gaff, in the film "Blade Runner") > If I believed that the use of refined sugar over a long period of time was not > harmful I might have posted the same information as my friend James. Anyone would agree that there are too many sugars in packaged foods, but the bulk of the refined sugars added are not cane sugar. Cane sugar is simply "too costly" for companies that want to sell "food products" at a profit. In the US, corn syrup is the real "enemy", and in Europe, it is beet sugar, if you want to point out "enemies". To be even more specific, the problem is packaged foods, and the whole concept of "convenience" as applied to dining. > The highest incidence of diabetes is in people which consume refined sugar. ...to EXCESS. This is the key point. There is quite a bit of subtle fraud on nearly every package one can pick up at the grocery, and one of the biggest problems is that "added sugars" are not clearly listed. To illustrate how silly things have become, any beekeeper can put the strictly true and perfectly legal statement on their label saying "No Added Sugar". > AVERAGE American ingests 100 pounds of refinned sugar per year. This is very true and very sad, but the term "refined sugar" includes more than cane sugar. All sweeteners from "natural" sources (except honey and an obscure leaf named "stevia") must be "refined" to concentrate the sweetness to a "useful" level. Therefore, the term "refined sugar" applies to nearly all "natural" sweeteners. > I would like to see the refined sugar and pure honey average use reversed. It would be just as bad for health either way. The only difference would be that beekeepers would become the source of the "evil" rather than the growers and processors of corn and beets. > Ps. Please do not get me started on Apartame use in diet drinks. The artificial stuff IS very scary, simply because there are so many contradictory results coming from well-designed studies. This is much more scary than glucose/fructose/sucrose/cellulose/carbohydrates, where there is no disagreement about the biology or chemistry. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 08:09:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks In-Reply-To: <000a01c2b400$8379ea40$11ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is plenty of evidence that adult onset diabetes is caused by overeating carbohydrates -all types of carbs.As far as the body is concerned,sugar,honey,bread,bagles,etc.are all the same in that carbs cause a release of insulin.Too much insulin released too often leads to health problems including diabetes,to put it simply.The amount of vitamins and minerals is a seperate issue.100 lbs of sugar or 100 lbs of honey plus all the grain based foods we eat is just too much for the human body to handle.No wonder there is an epidemic of obesity and diabetes. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:00:05 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Honey versus Sugar Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Benson said: > On one of the other lists there was the position put forward that honey was > an inherently superior bee feed, This is an area where the Bee-L archives would provide a goldmine of material. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l I'm not sure that there is any one "inherently superior" feed for bees. Each has advantages and drawbacks. The biggest problem with honey is that it is a very expensive bee feed as compared to all other options. Cost aside, honey can be thought of as "beef jerky for bees". If one feeds honey, one forces the bees to gather and use more water, which may be difficult or impossible in winter or early spring. If one dilutes the honey with water to make a "2:1 or 1:1 syrup", one soon gets fermented honey, which is not a good idea at all. On the other hand, if one feeds sugar syrup, the water problem does not exist. Since most feeding is done at times when the bees may not be able to fly every day, I'd conclude that feeding a more diluted (nectar-like) syrup would provide the bees with a more useful food supply for the purpose at hand. The important point here is to stress that bees do not consume honey directly, but must dilute it first. This takes water. Bees don't store much water. > and that were one to feed bees sugar syrup (even organic sugar syrup), that > the honey that came from that hive later could not be called organic. I don't know much about the details of the proposed organic standards, so I can't say. > It was also contended that feeding honey would sustain a colony for a longer > period of time than sugar syrup, all things being otherwise equal. No data was > presented, but there was a "belief" and a desire that this be true. The above seems reasonable, given the concentration of sugars in honey versus that in syrups. Bees make honey just about as "concentrated" as they can make it. They want to store the maximum "food value" in the minimum space. I don't really see how this has any impact on practical beekeeping, since one can build a hive-top feeder with any capacity one wishes if one does not want to refill the feeder, or follow the practice of "open feeding" a yard with one or more 55-gallon drums of sugar syrup, honey, or HFCS. The basic problem is the water. "Sustain a colony WHEN?" is the operative question, and if the answer is "winter", I'd disagree on a practical level. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:49:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Science (and the sugar lobby) say (for now) > "there if no proof the use of > refined sugar causes diabetes. Keith wrote: I have never heard anyone put it quite that way, and again, you are grossly oversimplifying. . This is a no win debate. James posted the sugar lobby's side and I posted the other side. Simple is best . Bob wrote: > AVERAGE American ingests 100 pounds of > refinned sugar per year. > > Average American use of honey is about one > pound per year. Keith wrote: Many, many reasons for this. Lets not forget the biggie - it is far far easier to produce a 10lb sac of sugar than a nice 10 lb jar of honey. Honey was the worlds sweetener till around 1700. In my opinion if Franz Achard in 1801 had not discovered a process of refining sugar from beet roots honey would still be the worlds sweetener. Keith wrote: So it is more available, and is used more, that simply does not prove that sugar is inherently deficient in some way based on its level of refinement. James posted accurate information on the make up of sugar which when looked at seems to indicate little difference between honey and sugar as used by the body . THERE ARE HOWEVER DIFERENCES! However because of the refining process many believe that the refining process is the problem. Hard to prove but case studies of diabetes people *seems* to point to refined sugar as a cause of diabetes. The world reknown Dr. F.G. Banting ,the discover of insulin, because of which millions around the world are alive today thought refined white sugar was going to be a big problem in the future.His prediction of record diabetes in the future if the people of the world did not stop their love of refined sugar has in my opinion came to pass. DIABETES IS GROWING AT RECORD RATES IN THE U.S. TODAY. Not all these people are couch potatoes and diabetes runs in their family. I went to a funeral of a diabetic friend last Saturday. Workaholic with no history of diabetes in his family. He did love sweets and tea heavy with refined sugar. Bob wrote; > I would like to see the refined sugar and pure > honey average use reversed. Keith wrote: Sure, nice thought, but the market would never bear it. Every journey begans with the first step. Keith wrote: Again, may I ask (and get this discuccion back on the origional track), what changes are wrought by refinement that make sugar As I posted above there is at present no way to prove refined sugar is bad for you just as there was no way for the people to prove tobacco smoking caused cancer. Looking at use habits in case studies is all the information we have to go on. Tobacco has never been proven to cause lung cancer unless I missed something. Both Keith and James have indicated that the high use of sugar is a cause for diabetes. Can you provide scientific information to support your claim which the sugar lobby lawyers couldn't defend against? I thought not! I believe like Keith and Jim that the high use of sugar is indeed a factor but not provable in a court of law or to the FDA when sugar lobby lawyers are present. Keith wrote: Keith "not a member of the sugar lobby, just a little ol' zoo veterinarian" Benson As a vet why do you recommend not to give dogs and cats candy with refined sugar? Are our bodies so different that we can process refined sugar but not other mammals? Bob Ps. Ready to move on to beekeeping subjects! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Grapefruit seed extract to control of american foulbrood? There is a wide spread belief that grapefruit seed extract (GSE) has nearly 'universal' antimicrobial activity. Even more aggravating is the belief that this antimicrobial efficacy is a 'natural' property of GSE. Both popularized claims are likely false. There are two studies I know of that tested the antimicrobial efficacy of GSE (Takeoka et al., 2001 and von Woedtke et al., 1999). Both studies confirmed that most commercial preparations of GSE contain preservatives. The preservatives appear to be responsible for the antimicrobial activity. There is nothing in pure grapeseed extract with antimicrobial activities. The preservatives are not naturally found in grapefruit seeds nor are they a consequence of GSE manufacture. Preservatives are likely added to the GSE. The preservative benzethonium chloride exists in some commercial preparations of GSE at levels as high as 8%. I don't think there is much hope for pure GSE inhibiting Paenibacillus larvae infections. All antimicrobial tests were based on microbe growth inhibition using direct microbe-GSE challenges. No bees involved. I haven't found any studies of GSE and AFB under 'hive' conditions. Nor have I found anyone using AFB infected larvae as a bioassay. Why do it at all? I am very sure pure GSE will not be useful. Richard Goetze See: Takeoka G; Dao L; Wong RY; Lundin R; Mahoney N; (2001). Journal of agricultural and food chemistry. (49), 3316. Identification of benzethonium chloride in commercial grapefruit seed extracts. (Author Affiliation: Western Regional Research Center, Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, 800 Buchanan Street, Albany, California 94710, USA. grt@pw.usda.gov). von Woedtke T; Schluter B; Pflegel P; Lindequist U; Julich WD; (1999). Aspects of the antimicrobial efficacy of grapefruit seed extract and its relation to preservative substances contained. Die Pharmazie (54), 452. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:10:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Need Input from Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good Afternoon: I'm going to be at both the American Honey Producers, Baton Rouge, and the America Beekeeping Federation Meetings, Kansas City. I'm looking forward to meeting many of you. We are at a critical transition point. Our research has produced unexpected results in terms of our ability to condition bees to seek out things -- and we think we may be able to change how bees respond to crops that are difficult or iffy to pollinate. Since we can get bees to reliably fly to the exact location of trace amounts of explosive, with no reward given at the target (explosive's in dirt), and keep them doing this day after day for weeks, we think there's potential for using this capability in other applications such as improved pollination. We are also getting lots of national press attention, and we want to turn this to useful activities for the bee industry. We've been contacted by the major morning news programs, as well as Discovery and The Learning Channel and National Geographic. Seems we ought to be able to get out some information about the importance of the bee industry, even if their interest is primarily on headline stories such as our training bee to find landmines. Similary, our hardware (equipment) is becoming less expensive and we have just received a small grant to assist in establishing a business aimed at providing these new tools to beekeepers. What the products might be range from our bee conditioning systems to anti-theft devices to robotics. What we need is guidance from beekeepers -- what do you need to reduce your manual labor and increase productivity - in addition to good honey and pollination prices? And, we wouldn't mind finding some investors to help bring these products to market. Finally, we have seen more pesticide problems than in any period since the 1960s. Dan Mayer, who now lives up the valley and I have been called upon to investigate and review some very large bee kill problems involving beekeepers from Minnesota to Texas. You can read about one of the "smaller" problems in this month's Bee Culture. We're glad to help the beekeepers, but we need to establish the ability to provide some services on demand, and we need to find a way to help beekeepers without having to make the beekeeper, who already has experienced a major loss, pay all of the bills. This is especially important, since resolving these problems that is of concern to the industry as a whole. As a first step, we are creating an institute for agricultural, biological, and chemical safety and security. The institute would act as a clearing center, training and test facility, to look at pesticide problems as well as uses of bees in the more exotic applications that we have pioneered - from landmine and unexploded ordinance detection to inspections of cargo, vehicles, and maybe even luggage. I'll be bringing a presentation to the meetings on my notebook computer that demonstrates bees searching a vehicle for a bomb. It only takes 2 minutes to view, but I think you'll find the results rather amazing. Anyway, I'd like to talk to people about these issues. Our research work has a 30 year history. One month ago, we added a business wing and we found manufacturing partners -- the master agreements are being put in place. We also established the Institute. We envision it as a non-profit foundation aimed at providing needed, but currently unavailable, bee and agriculture-related services and technologies with a strong educational/public information component. Establishing interactive, informative displays in Museums of Natural History such as the Smithsonian and a national TV series on the bee industry (similar to Victory Garden) is part of our agenda. For these efforts, we are going to need lots of input, including forming A Advisory Group or Board of Directors who would represent all facets of bee-related industry - honey producers, packers, sales and marketing, bee equipment suppliers, educational groups, etc. Whew!! I realize that this is a lot, but we are doing most of this already. We need some collaborators and partners to get this going fast. Hope to see you at one of the upcoming meetings. Come prepared to work -- I'd like to draft some proposals during these meetings to take to a variety of funding sources, from federal grants to growers to venture capitalists. Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Judy & Dave Gaida Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > From: Bob Harrison > Date: 2003/01/05 Sun AM 11:49:52 EST > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] refined sugar health risks > Hard to prove but case studies of diabetes people > *seems* to point to refined sugar as a cause of diabetes. > Hi Bob and all my beekeeper friends. There she goes, running, running, and jumps right in. As a Type 1 Diabetic for almost 30 years now: for background, I take a minimum of 6 injections of insulin a day. I use 2 different types of insulin, one longlasting which is to deal with the body needing energy to breathe and think, all day, even if I am asleep. The fast acting one is to "cover" or take care of CARBS that are eaten during the day. In order for our cells to make energy they need insulin. Imagine a cell as a room with a locked door. When a carb tries to enter the cell to supply energy, it is locked out. Insulin comes along and opens the door by converting carbs, or other, to energy. This energy can come from many sources: carbohydrates, protein, fat, even body fat or muscle. Carbohydrates, as an energy source, require a lot of insulin immediately. Protein, fats, etc. can be eaten one day and not available to be energy, nor need any insulin to convert, until a day later. Sugar, honey, corn syrup, maple syrup, all of them, are carbohydrates. It is the carbohydrate that is the problem for diabetics - Type 1 or Type 2 (type 2 usually can control their diabetes with diet, exercise or pills.) Refined white sugar is not the cause of diabetes. No way, shape or form. There was a period in time when this idea was embraced. No longer. If you were to research any of the large food governing or related groups, (American Diabetes Assoc., American Heart, FDA, etc) you will find that their recommendations for a healthy diet has been changed in the last 2 years or so. Less carbs. There are carbs in sugar, honey, pasta, bread, potatoes, fruit, vegetables, meat, dairy, etc. Some Type 2 diabetics can eat pizza, some can eat ice cream. It is an individual problem as to which carb causes a rise in blood glucose. Type 1 diabetics figure out how much insulin their body needs to keep their blood sugar in a normal range. The way we figure this is by determining the 'INSULIN TO CARB' ratio. We don't count fats, protein, etc. Just carbs. This is where the individual problem comes in. Some diabetics may have a 1 to 15 (normal) insulin to carb ratio. Others may have a 1 to 2 insulin to carb ratio. But it is always carbs. If you check the label, both sugar and honey have the same number of carbs per serving. Same. No difference. Sorry, Bob, but you can't use us diabetics as an excuse to increase honey consumption vs. white sugar. (I do use honey when I miscalculate and take too much insulin and need a quick glucose boost.) I would be willing to conduct an experiment for us. My body makes no insulin. (Type 2s usually have some, not enough or too weak) I could eat a tablespoon of sugar and track my blood glucose for an hour, by testing every 5 minutes or so. Then take insulin to get back to normal. Then I could eat a tablespoon of honey and track my blood glucose for an hour, by testing every 5 minutes or so. My fingers will hurt, but I think it would be well worth it. Please, as beekeepers, NEVER tell your customers that it is OK for diabetics to use honey. Tell them that, if they count their carbs, they can absolutely count honey into their meals. I am not an expert at very many things, but diabetes, yeah, I am an expert. I have to be. Magazines and radio shows do not help me to control my disease. Just trial and error and resulting expertise. Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:06:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: HFCS sources? Who sells HFCS? How do I learn how to get some from a source as close to eastern NC as possible? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: While no one in this discussion has made any claim that honey is good for diabetics, I've heard such things in the past and just happened to run across this: “Frequently, claims are voiced that honey is good for diabetics. This is unlikely to find confirmation because of its high sugar content. However, it is better than products made with cane sugar, as a study by Katsilambros et al., (1988) has shown. It revealed that insulin levels were lower when compared to the uptake of equal caloric values of others foods, but blood sugar level was equal or higher than in the other compared products shortly after eating. In healthy individuals, the consumption of honey produced lower blood sugar readings than the consumption of the same quantity of sucrose (Shambaugh et al., 1990).” >From ‘Value-added products from beekeeping’ FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin 124 http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e04.htm#2.4.1 Katsilambros, N.L., Philippides, P., Touliatou, A., Georgakopoulos, K., Kofotzouli, L. Frangaki, D., Siskoudis, P., Marangos, M. and Sfikakis, P. 1988. Metabolic effects of honey (alone or combined with other foods) in type II diabetics. Acta Diabetologica Latina, 25 (3): 197-203 Shambaugh, P., Worthington, V. and Herbert, J.H. 1990. Differential effects of honey, sucrose, and fructose on blood sugar levels. J. Manipul. Physiol. Therapeutics, 13 (6): 322-325 Incidentally my sister has a dog with diabetes that requires a shot every day. At first, the injections were a real ordeal for both my sister and the dog. The dog didn’t like being stuck with a needle and demonstrated that in no uncertain terms. My sister eventually solved the problem with by rewarding the dog with a couple of ‘doggie treats’. She feeds one to the dog both before and after the shot. Now the dog eats its first treat and then passively stands there looking forlorn with its tail down while being injected with insulin. As soon as the needle is pulled out, the dog gets excited, wags its tail and waits for my sister to hand it the second treat. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:33:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: refined sugar health risks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this disagreement reminds me of the man who would not think of putting 3% Acetic Acid on his salad for dressing, but grab a bottle of vinegar and pour away. Same old story - the great majority of the public do not understand the words "science", "chemicals", or "refined". My wife was a diabetic, but it was too much honey or sugar that killed her, but too much PASTA, which is defined as a carbohydrate. Back to bees, I hope. HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:42:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: HFCS sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe, > Who sells HFCS? How do I learn how to get some from a source as close to eastern NC as possible? Depends on the amount needed. For less than a tanker full, check out the local soda pop bottler. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:55:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Cunningham Subject: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had good luck getting HFCS from Chicago Sweeteners. They have = facilities located across the country and sell in buckets, drums, and = even totes. =20 You can find them at http:www.chicagosweeteners.com John Cunningham Perrysville, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Feed sources for amateurs? Does anyone know of a source of disease-free pollen for the small beekeeper? What about HFCS? Is there a cost-efficient source for the guy who's been buying 25 lb bags of sugar from the local Safeway? Anyone have a review of the foam top-feeders? Are they durable? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:52:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollen trap design A few months ago several list members asked if I would release a detailed drawing of the Sundance Pollen Trap, so that beekeepers could consider making their own. I replied that no such drawings were available. Another list member, Tim Arheit, volunteered to make such a drawing, and a Bill of Materials, and has not completed his work. Accordingly, I am willing to send the 5-page drawing and Bill of Materials to interested list members who contact me privately. Please do not ask for this material unless you are an accomplished woodworker or cabinet maker. The Trap is quite complex and it will take an accomplished person at least 40 hours of total effort to make a copy, even with the instructions. Moreover, even with the instructions it is not clear (to me) that one would be able to produce a finished and functioning trap without also purchasing and disassembling a genuine Sundance trap. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Milt's questions Milt asked several questions: 1. "Does anyone know of a source of disease-free pollen for the small beekeeper?" I do not know of such a source, from any of those who advertise their pollen in the magazines. At least two of those vendors get their pollen from 'offshore sources', which I interpret as coming from China. Personally, I would not touch the stuff. That said, I think that small beekeepers should seriously consider buying local pollen from a beekeeper they think they can trust. AFB is the disease everyone worries about being transmitted with pollen and I wonder if the worries are justified. First, ABF is not very contagious. Larvae can only become infected for a few hours of their life. Second, there was a study done some years ago at Penn State (I think) where scientists tried to infect larvae with a hive tool by transferring spores from known infections to larvae of the 'right' age, and were 100% unsuccessful! Third, pollen properly collected has never entered a brood nest so any spores would have to come from being casually on the outside of adult bees or in their honey stomachs. Fourth, I have asked several scientists if anyone had ever managed to inoculate larvae or a petri dish with ABF spores collected from pollen, and no one has been able to recall any such studies. BUT: (1) ABF is a terrible disease to get established in an apiary and (2) those same scientists who do not know of studies establishing a connection between pollen and ABF also 'believe' that swarms hived on new foundation sometimes come down with ABF, implying that spores are being carried by adult bees. So, every beekeeper has to make her own decisions. Personally, I would buy pollen from a trusted local source if I had to. (Next year, collect your own and keep it over the winter.) 2. "What about HUFFS? Is there a cost-efficient source for the guy who's been buying 25 lb bags of sugar from the local Safeway?" Tough to find such a source. If you are near eastern NY, Betterbee (800-632-3379) offered (in 2002) HFCS at $.18 a pound in your own buckets, with a minimum of 10 buckets. In the upper Midwest, B & B Honey Farm (800-342-4811) offers similar deals. I think that Mid-Con (800-547-1392), near Kansas City, does likewise. Check with your local bee equipment dealers. If they do not offer in 5-gallon buckets, tell them you would buy some if they did! They have to buy at least a ½ tanker load, so want to make sure they can sell what they buy, and if enough beekeepers 'commit' to buy they will! 3. "Anyone have a review of the foam top-feeders? Are they durable?" In my opinion, they are the best things since sliced bread! I have 12 and will buy 10 more this year. I am replacing my Miller-type wood feeders with them as fast as I can. As far as being durable, if you paint them (INSIDE AND OUT) and store them away from chewing skunks, mice, etc. in the winter they will last as long as your wood hives. However, the paint is vital, and do not let anyone tell you it is not necessary. Those who tell you that have not used them for 20+ years, nor talked to those who have. Hope this helps Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:25:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Milt's questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lloyd@ROSSROUNDS.COM wrote: "AFB is the disease everyone worries about being transmitted with pollen and I wonder if the worries are justified." Afterwards he consistently referred to AFB as ABF. Of course his computer is acting up, it should have been AFB throughout. Perhaps Lloyd is taking his laptop to the convention next week. :-) Another and perhaps a greater concern with purchased pollen from an unknown source is chalkbrood! Mummies can and do end up in collected pollen. Designs that cover the collected pollen (such as the Sundance trap) reduce the incidence of chalkbrood mummies ending up in the collected pollen, but even the superior designs do not eliminate the concern. Chalkbrood mummies mixed into pollen patties is a surefire way to spread the disease. Concerns over chalkbrood and AFB can be eliminated by irradiating the pollen. I recall reading that this is SOP in Australia and New Zealand. As always, know your supplier, and if the supplier is unknown (or not recommended by a trusted reference) it is best avoided Aaron Morris - thinking Caveat emptor! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:54:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: george seferiadis Subject: biological activities of grapefruit seed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Their are 7 known chemicals in grapefruit seed . 5 of these have no = known biological activities, Deacetyl-Nomilin, Deoxy-Limonol, Obacunol, = Epi-iso obacunoic acid 17-0-beta-D-Glucoside, and Limonol. The other 2 = are Nomilin(antifeedant) and Obacunone(anticataleptic and antifeedant) = None of these would be of any use for your bees. george