From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:28:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6E64906E for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZee011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0301B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 60026 Lines: 1338 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:30:33 -0500 Reply-To: OldDrone@pollinator.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "OldDrone@pollinator.com" Subject: Re: HFCS sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Original Message: ----------------- From: Joe Miller beejb4@COX.NET Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:06:05 -0500 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: [BEE-L] HFCS sources? Who sells HFCS? How do I learn how to get some from a source as close to eastern NC as possible? A group of beekeepers here in Hemingway, SC (near Myrtle Beach) gets a tractor-trailer load every now and then. E-mail me if that is close enough, and you want to be involved. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Sundance Pollen Trap My brain sometimes works faster than my fingers and I said "Another list member, Tim Arheit, volunteered to make such a drawing, and a Bill of Materials, and has not completed his work." In fact, Tim did an outstanding job and my brain directions to fingers was to type "now", instead of 'not'. Several figured this out and have asked for plans...which is fine. A PDF file is ready. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:24:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: HFCS sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Miller ask for a source of HFCS in his area. While you're at it, how about West Texas? Thanks West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:10:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: HFCS sources? In-Reply-To: <003d01c3bcde$92e441a0$2781c641@me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:24 AM 12/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Joe Miller ask for a source of HFCS in his area. While you're at it, how >about West Texas? > >Thanks >West Texas Mark I buy my HFCS from the A E Staley Co. in Decatur Illinois. They have a rail head in Massachusetts, and we go in on a truck load every fall. They must ship to other regions of the US. Why not call them. They make the stuff, and would know where it is. Even if you have to drive a few hours, it sure is a nice product to feed bees. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:49:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Kellogg Subject: Re: HFCS sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm a newcomer to this group. Can someone tell me more about HFCS. When and how is it fed? Thanks, Mary in CT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:58:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: HFCS sources? In-Reply-To: <003d01c3bcde$92e441a0$2781c641@me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yesterday I received a notice from the A E Staley Co about HFCS pricing. Isosweet 5500...the proper syrup for bee feed...crystallizes more slowly...55% fructose...is listed as follows: Delivered per Cwt. Commercial basis (truck load) Northeast...$17.60 Midwest...$16.12 West...$18.11 Southwest...$17.40 Southeast...$17.91 A E Staley Manufacturing Co 2200 East Eldorado St Decatur, Illinois 62525 217-423-4411 www.tateandlyle.com Hope this helps track down available HFCS in your area. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: HFCS Mary asked about HFCS (high fructose corn syrup). When and how to feed. HFCS should be fed (1) anytime the bees need feed to sustain brood production or when the bees do not have enough food for the winter (2) when the beekeeper wishes to create an 'artificial flow' to stimulate the bees earlier than by waiting for a normal flow. WHENEVER FEEDING BEES SYRUP, THEY SHOULD ALSO BE FED POLLEN OR POLLEN SUPPLEMENT. (There are some exceptions to this, but the conditions are unusual and hobbyists will best serve their bees if they ALWAYS feed pollen or pollen supplements whenever they feed syrup.) The three easiest and best ways to feed, in order: 1. The new hive top Styrofoam feeder offered by Betterbee. (800-632-3379) 2. Gallon glass or plastic jugs upended and on top of 1/4" to 1/2" pieces of wood laid on the top bars. Surround the jugs with an empty hive body. 3. A sealed gallon-size heavy duty plastic bag filled with HFCS, laid on the top bars, with a few holes punched in the top. HFCS is ALWAYS far superior to honey, as it does not contain honey's normal impurities that they digestive system has to handle. Sugar Syrup (1:1 or 2:1) can be substituted for HFCS, but it is messy to prepare and 2:1 is very difficult for a hobbyist to prepare. For more information, read one of the several excellent general purpose books on beekeeping. Hope this helps. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:16:10 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking back in the archives, I have been looking for examples where = beekeepers have been using colours on their hives to help with queen = returns. There are many useful hits in the archives but is there anyone = who is now using colours for this purposes. =20 Can they list what colours they are using. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Weatherhead said: > Looking back in the archives, I have been looking for examples > where beekeepers have been using colours on their hives to help > with queen returns. There are many useful hits in the archives > but is there anyone who is now using colours for this purposes. > Can they list what colours they are using. I only use them on new splits, I do not use them on every hive. Perhaps if I convert to pallets someday, I will use them everywhere. I don't think that it matters what specific colors one uses. What matters is to choose different colors that are "far apart from each other" in the color spectrum to maximize the ability to differentiate between multiple entrance choices in the same (lets guess and say "15-degree" as an estimate) "field of view". The color ranges that bees are known to see run from orange up to the ultraviolet wavelengths. Bees see red as "black", so one could use either red or black as "black" for bees. The exact color range of bee vision ranges from somewhere between 300 and 400 nanometers wavelength to somewhere slightly above 600 nanometers. (The published literature gives different numbers, and I don't know which is exactly correct.) In terms of colors, this means: Wavelength Aprox Color Bee Human (nm) Range Sees? Sees? ----------- ----------- ----- ----- 300 Ultraviolet Yes No 400 Purples Yes Yes Blues Yes Yes Blue-green Yes Yes 500 Green Yes Yes Yellow Yes Yes 600 Orange Yes Yes 700 Red No Yes 800 Infrared No No So, orange and blue are "further apart" than green and yellow. I would not expect as much success from a green/yellow choice as I would from a orange/blue choice. I have seen various marker set-ups, but I think that most (including all the university research set-ups I have seen) attempts at this are not thought out very clearly in terms of making unique "markers" for bees. All of what I have seen have used consistent shapes. For example, at EAS 2002, those who attended the "apiary workshops" could see that Cornell uses sets of 4 square tiles, with each square tile painted a different color. The 4 tiles are themselves arranged into a larger square. What's wrong with this approach? Get a magnifying glass, and look closely at your TV or computer screen. You see "pixels". You see individual red, green, and blue dots. If you look at the screen without the magnifying glass, you see the net effect, which looks like colors "between" the reds, blues, and greens. The pixels are smaller than your eye can resolve, so your eyes get fooled and see "purple" rather than "red next to blue". So what do these Cornell square "targets" look like to a bee on final approach, heading for a cluster of 4 to 6 hives? Well, what do they look like to you at 50, 100, 150, and 200 feet? Given that each square is no more than a 2 or 3 inches across, I'd conclude that they are useless (and perhaps confusing) at somewhere between 50 and 100 feet. At a flight speed of 6 to 9 miles an hour, the typical bee is moving at 8 to 13 feet per second. So if they can only resolve the "target" at 50 feet, this gives them only 3 to 6 seconds to see the target, make a decision, and change course. All while making a landing amongst hundreds of other flying bees. We know that the resolution of bee vision is lousy as compared to humans, so a bee attending Cornell has to get close to a hive to be able to resolve the different color patches as individual colors. How close to they have to get before they can resolve the individual colors? I dunno, but bees have far fewer "sensors" in their eyes than humans, and a bee's eye covers a much larger area of the sky than a human eye. If you can't make out the difference, a bee surely can't. I'd suggest that different shapes AND colors would make recognition easier for the bees. Good examples of what I would use are triangles, stars, and various "gunsight cross-hair" patterns, in colors that contrast well with the hive bodies or the "background" portion of the marker. My reasoning for suggesting that patterns are as important as color is as follows: Bees can see all the same colors that humans can, except reds. They see "red" as "black", assuming that neither object fluoresces under UV light. The light sensors in the eyes of insects are called "ommatidia" by entomologists. A honeybee eye has 4500 of them, all pointing outward at unique angles to collect light from different directions. A mere 4500 photoreceptors makes for a very low resolution "camera". A human eye has 1.5 million photoreceptors, and even cheap digital cameras have 2 or 3 million. Each bee photoreceptor is made up of nine individual elements. Two detect green, two detect blue, and two detect ultraviolet. The other two are (somehow) able to detect green when pointing down, and ultraviolet when pointing up. (Don't ask me how.) There are lots of photos of flowers that have been taken under UV light in an attempt to show the "hidden patterns" that point bees to nectar and pollen. All of them can be described as "starbursts" of various types with darker centers. Bees clearly have the ability to distinguish patterns, since they will fly directly between flowers in which they are interested. (And please - before yet another chowder and marching society forms, let me add that anyone who wants to look can see bees moving directly from flower to flower against the breeze, so this is not "odor" at work here. This is vision.) So, consider painting triangles, squares, circles, and stars, all with radiating arms like a child's drawing of the sun, on a contrasting background. This is sure to reduce drifting, as bees are accustomed to such "radiating" patterns. I use plastic lids from 2-lb coffee cans, since they are free, indestructible, large enough to make a decent visual target at a hundred feet, hold paint well, and are easy to thumb-tack to a hive body. Two other somewhat obscure aspects of bee vision would allow one to come up with some very sophisticated bee markers. (I don't know why anyone would do this, but I often get the impression that "someone, somewhere" is doing just about anything that can be done to bees, just to see what happens.) A bee's UV-detecting ability can detect the direction of the polarization of UV light. This allows them to know the sun's position even when the sky is partly overcast. When even only a tiny portion of sky is visible, bees can look at the clear portion, and figure out where the sun is. Light is scattered by the atmosphere. Scattering polarizes, and the polarization is maximum when the scattering is at 90 degrees. As the angle to the sun gets closer to being directly toward or directly away from the sun, the polarization approaches zero. If you want to see this effect, Ray-Bans and other decent sunglasses are polarizing filters. Rotate your sunglasses slowly, and notice that the direction of polarization is indicated by the position of the lens that dims your view of the sky the most. Bees also can resolve rapidly-moving objects (like other bees) that humans cannot. Bees are said to be able to see motion at 100 Hz (cycles per second). Humans can only see things moving slower than 20 Hz. That's why they never have mid-air collisions in front of the hive. This ability to see a rapidly moving object apparently is not very good at a distance, as I have found dead bees when cleaning the grille screens of my cars. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:05:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: marked workers In late summer or early fall workers are often seen with a yellow marking on their thorax that looks as though someone had marked them. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the result of a 'yeast growth' or some such thing. What is that marking showing up on workers at the end of the season? Also, does anyone know where the explanation can be found? It seems as though I read it in "The Hive and the Honey Bee", but I can't seem to find it again. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim writes this: >So, consider painting triangles, squares, circles, and stars, Not to get too far of the subject of colors, but shape also has an effect on what bees can distinguish. A solid circle, solid square, or a solid triangle are all seen by bees as the same shape. Also shapes like “X”, “Y”, or “IIII” are perceived as identical shapes by bees. At least according to what E.O. Wilson writes in “The Insect Societies” Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen said: > ...but shape also has an effect on what bees can distinguish. > A solid circle, solid square, or a solid triangle are all seen by bees > as the same shape. Also shapes like "X", "Y", or "IIII" are perceived > as identical shapes by bees. At least according to what E.O. Wilson > writes in "The Insect Societies" That was the view over 30 years ago. Take a look at: http://cvs.anu.edu.au/andy/beye/gallery.html and see for yourself if a projection of an image the way a bee sees it (based upon the physical set-up of a bee's eye) is possible to differentiate from another image. I'm not saying that I am certain that bees CAN differentiate "stars" from "circles" as I honestly do not know. I'm just inferring that flowers that show strong contrasting radiating patterns under UV light did not become successful without being highly attractive and identifiable to bees as a unique nectar/pollen source among many. My intent was to suggest different "flower-like" patterns, so the complete suggestion was: > So, consider painting triangles, squares, circles, and stars, > all with radiating arms like a child's drawing of the sun, on a > contrasting background. This is sure to reduce drifting, as > bees are accustomed to such "radiating" patterns. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >That was the view over 30 years ago. Actually the research was done back in the 1930's. This is some of what Edward O. Wilson wrote: “The honeybee worker’s sense of visual pattern is quite bizarre to our own way of thinking. Using the von Frisch training technique, Mathilde Hertz (1930, 1935) discovered that the degree of dissection of a figure, rather than its outline, is the quality perceived. For example, we easily perceive that each of the figures in the upper row [here is shown a solid circle, square, triangle] is radically different from the others, but the bee cannot tell them apart. We also see the figures in the lower row [X, IIII, Y] as differing greatly, but these too, the bee is unable to distinguish. The bee is, however, able to tell any one of the figures in the upper row from all of those in the lower row, and vice versa. Evidently what matters is the number of borders, rather than their alignment. Gertrud Zerrahn (1934) found that more precisely it is the length of the contours surrounding a given area that is distinguished.” Bibliography citations: Hertz, Mathilde, 1930. Die Organisation des optischen Feldes bei der Biene, II. Zeitschrift fur Vergleichende Physiologie, 11(1): 107-145. --1935. Zur Phsiologie des Formen- und Bewegungsshens. III. Figurale Unterscheidung und reziproke Dressuren bei der Bienc. Zeitschrift fur Vergleichende Physiologie, 21(4): 604-615. Zerrahn, Gertrud, 1934. Formdressur und Formunterscheidung bei der Honigbiene. Zeitschrift fur Vergleichende Physiologie, 20(1-2): 117-150. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:42:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: marked workers In-Reply-To: <200301121905.h0CJ5PoE002489@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >In late summer or early fall workers are often seen with a yellow marking >on their thorax that looks as though someone had marked them. > What is that marking showing up on workers at the end of the >season? >Dick Allen My bees get a white stripe on the dorsal side of their thorax. I affectionally call them "stripers." I've always thought they got it from working chicory. The way the bee gets nectar from the chicory causes the pollen to be deposited on the thorax. I could be wrong of course. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Suttles Subject: PermaComb? THere is a large dicussion on the Beesource.com Bulletin Board of Equipment/Hardware Review concerning PermaComb. It is plastic frames with completely drawn comb. It is not foundation it is full depth, at the right angle comb. I am trying to find anyone that has used it and get some pros and cons. So far all I can find is one person who has used it and he is the Distributor of the product. It has been in existance for a number of years. Mr. John Seets, the Distributor of PermaComb, States he has used it for the last 27 years. He is located in Maryland, so maybe someone on this thread knows him. I have order 4 cases of the Permacomb frames. They come in medium size only. The amount of increased honey prodcution should more that offset the cost of the combs. Also the wax moth and hive beetle have nothing to destroy. Curious for comments on the topic. Thanks Doug Suttles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:35:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Colour recognition For example, at EAS 2002, those who attended the "apiary workshops" could see that Cornell uses sets of 4 square tiles, with each square tile painted a different color. The 4 tiles are themselves arranged into a larger square. --- Given that each square is no more than a 2 or 3 inches across, I'd conclude that they are useless Response: Are you referring to the squares on the sides of the bee houses? If so, there are two on each of the four sides of the bee house, making 8 total per house. The house is 8x8 feet, so you have 2 12" squares on a background 8x8 feet. The house itself is painted, one is yellow, one green, one blue and one white. Now I figure the bees find the correct house and remember which side is theirs, north, east west or south. So assuming they are approaching the north side they have only to choose which of two squares is their entrance. Now I don't know about bees, but I can see clearly at several hundred feet that one square is red with three horizontal yellow stripes and the other is blue with a white dot. But even if they can't make it out until they are 20 or 30 feet close, they have only to decide whether to land on the left one or the right one. Incidently, one is a little higher than the other, adding to the identity of the two ports. Personally, I would say they would have no trouble distinguishing which entrance is theirs without the colors, but the point here is to minimize drifting. Most drifting occurs during the initial orientation flights when young bees fly out and attempt to memorize the appearance of their home. At this point a 12" red square with yellow bars looks very different from a blue one with a white circle. We spent a lot of time choosing the size, pattern and color and it was not for nothing. We use paired squares, one with 3 bars and one with a circle. The colors include yellow, green, blue, white and red in various shades. The red appears black to them, I know, but I like red myself so I use it. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:32:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Colour recognition I have been looking for examples where beekeepers have been using colours on their hives to help with queen returns.... is there anyone who is now using colours for this purpose response: I set up a queen mating yard every summer (in 2002 I had 100 nucs). I have been raising queens for 25 years. I think the most important thing is that each hive or mating nuc must appear different to the queen. One way is to put them near natural landmarks like shrubs or boulders. If you have a lot of space this may work. However, my current mating nucs are painted different colors. Incidentally, I use a nuc that holds five standard frames. For mating queens the bees probably needn't bee stronger than about 2 frames worth. But such a large hive means it can expand and there is room to add a couple of frames of honey as needed. The colors I use are yellow, green, blue, white and red in various shades. I place them in pairs with the entrances pointed in opposite directions. There should be at least six feet (2 M) between each pair, ten would be better (3 M). If there aren't obvious landmarks, I imagine the color is a big help. By the way, picture yourself as a bee: a 5 frame nuc is about as big as a barn would be to you or me. It would be hard to mistake your barn, but if it was a particular color, that would help. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:34:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marked workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In late summer and autumn in the UK bees often get dusted with lots of creamy white pollen from Himalayan Balsam. It looks as if they are attacked by fungus. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Colour recognition In-Reply-To: <200301131932.h0DILrr2001323@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >By the way, picture yourself as a bee: a 5 frame nuc is about as big as a >barn would be to you or me. It would be hard to mistake your barn, but if >it was a particular color, that would help. > >pb I remember my dad telling me about the first house they owned after the war. It was in Levittown, NY. Planned community. All the houses were alike, and unpainted . Every yard held the same apple and peach tree. There were no street signs when he first moved in. He, and others, placed colored ribbons on a tree branch to know what street they lived on. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:26:26 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that my (poor) memory was responsible for taking the name of Cornell University in vain when writing about markers on beehives. My apologies to Peter Borst and everyone else at Cornell. I can't remember where I saw the "bad example". jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the chapter on vision in Ronald Riband’s “The Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees”: [Koch, P. (1934)] reported that he had kept 28 colonies in one apiary for 14 years, and that during this time the hives had always been painted six different colours. The average honey yields from the differently coloured hives had shown consistent differences, thus: dark blue 48 ˝ lb., black 42 lb., brown 40 lb., white 26 ˝ lb., light green 22 lb., pink 21 lb. This result indicates that bees had shown a preference for darker-coloured hives and had drifted to these from the others. In Europe, where colonies are usually kept close together in beehouses, the painting of hive is frequently advocated in order to help the bees to identify their own hive; Koch’s results demonstrate that this system can have disadvantages. Koch, P. (1934) Farbe der Wohnung und Honigertrag. Krumark.. Imker 24: 333- 5. Riband goes into more detail on bee vision than does E.O. Wilson in his “Insect Societies”. After reading both, it appears Wilson likely used Riband’s book for much of his reference material. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:35:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: detection tracheal in frozen bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all, Does anyone know a reference to detection of tracheal mites in frozen bees or a general crushing/washing method? kind regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:36:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: >>From the chapter on vision in Ronald Riband’s “The Behaviour and Social >Life of Honeybees”: > >[Koch, P. (1934)] reported that he had kept 28 colonies in one apiary for >14 years, and that during this time the hives had always been painted six >different colours. The average honey yields from the differently coloured >hives had shown consistent differences, thus: dark blue 48 ˝ lb., black 42 >lb., brown 40 lb., white 26 ˝ lb., light green 22 lb., pink 21 lb. This >result indicates that bees had shown a preference for darker-coloured hives >and had drifted to these from the others. In Europe, where colonies are >usually kept close together in beehouses, the painting of hive is >frequently advocated in order to help the bees to identify their own hive; >Koch’s results demonstrate that this system can have disadvantages. > > Do you know where his hives were located? Heat also comes into play with dark hives, so if it was a factor then maybe a beehouse with colors differentiating hives would not make a difference, since all the hives would have the same temp. Would be interesting to know if anyone who uses a beehouse and colors has a difference in production between marking colors. I paint all my hives dark blue and do outproduce most in the area. But my guess is my bees would not fare as well in a hot summer location. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:20:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All There is a flaw in the way we understand "what the bee sees" because we consider what our eyesight 'picture' would look like through a bee's eye. Consider that vision in humans is a combination of the optical signals and the processing that our brains do on those signals. Why then do we extrapolate what the bee 'sees' when we have no idea how it's brian processes the data it receives? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey R Hills Subject: Perma Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug Suttles wrote: "Curious for comments on the topic." For several years I have interspersed PermaComb interspersed with the other standard medium solutions and have the following comments. Do not use Perma Comb where there is a chance the queen will set up shop in it. Use it in an active honey flow where the bees will fill it quickly as it is generally not their first choice; they won't use it until they have to. Expect less honey per filled frame as the bees generally do not fill PermaComb out much beyond the width of the frame ... i.e. you could get 12 frames to a super if you used only PermaComb. I still have the first PC I bought five or six years ago. I give it very high marks for durability. Jeff Hills ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:20:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: dark blue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you worry about the wax melting on the hot days? Or do you add extra ventaliation durring that time. Here In NW PA we have a few weeks that are miserably hot and expect a drought again this summer. Even most the springs dried up last year. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:37:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: detection tracheal in frozen bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Lennard asked: "Does anyone know a reference to detection of tracheal mites in frozen bees or a general crushing/washing method?" You can simply slice the frozen bees and clear the thoraxic disks in KOH solution as per the standard method. The frozen bees are easy to slice and we used to freeze them instead of preserving them in alcohol partly because they were easier to slice frozen. If you have not done the slicing before, first pull off the head and first pair of legs and then you can easily see to slice off the front part of the thorax where the main tracheal trunks are. Hope this helps. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman said: > There is a flaw in the way we understand "what the bee sees" because we > consider what our eyesight 'picture' would look like through a bee's eye. > Consider that vision in humans is a combination of the optical signals and > the processing that our brains do on those signals. > Why then do we extrapolate what the bee 'sees' when we have no idea how it's > brian processes the data it receives? Because we can observe what the bees do, and at least figure out what colors and shapes they can distinguish as unique from something else. Without any testing at all, one can state with certainty that bees can differentiate one flower from another by vision alone, so markers that are nothing but simplified and enlarged patterns copied from photos of flowers taken under UV light should be a good "drift preventer". One can also state with certainty without any testing that high-contrast dark areas on lighter backgrounds are clearly identifiable, given that bees will target their defensive stinging on such areas. Post-mortem examination of the light receptors in bees eyes tell us what colors bees can differentiate, for the simple reason that unique color receptors in eyes clearly feed different signal to the bee's brain, and this can be cross-checked against colors that bees are known from testing to be able to differentiate. I don't really care "how" a bee's brain processes the data, I only care if the bee can "tell the difference" between one thing and another. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Colour recognition Dave writes: Why then do we extrapolate what the bee 'sees' when we have no idea how it's brain processes the data it receives? Why do we do it? Partly, because it's fun to imagine what a bee sees when going about her business. Partly, in order to arrange our apiaries to minimize drifting or to enable the queens to get back safely. How we do it has more to do with observation than any intimate knowledge of brain functioning, although there are many scientists making amazing discoveries on that front, such as how bees perceive distance and speed and the correlation between these. Anyone who has a pet learns in a sense to think like they do. I know that my dog does not think "it's not OK to go the carpet". He thinks "it's not OK to go on the carpet if they are watching me." Now, that sounds a little like some people I know! So by watching bees and learning what they seem to notice, and what they pay no attention to, we get hints of how they see. They seem to pick out very small changes in the position of the hive, or its entrance. If I close up a crack they have been using for an entrance, they keep trying to get in at that spot for a long time. On the other hand, they seem to be utterly confused by other changes. I have a white truck and at times big clouds of them hover around it as if they thought that because it was white, it might be their hive. (Just my impression, I know) pb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:12:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a flaw in the way we understand "what the bee sees" because we > consider what our eyesight 'picture' would look like through a bee's eye. > > Consider that vision in humans is a combination of the optical signals and > the processing that our brains do on those signals. I agree. In spite of the apparent crudeness of the raw image from their 'eyes', bees seem to have very good visual perception . Motion seems to play a large role in what bees 'see'. It seems to me that when motion is involved, bees are able to use the additional information generated by motion to enhance (over time) what we imagine they 'see' from considering the static image inputs. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:27:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & Jim & all >From your replies (which I am in agreement with) I must have missed a point or two in the discussion so far. What I was trying to say is that it is no use taking a miniature camera (endoscope) and placing it behind the lens of a bee's eye. The resulting picture may be amusing to humans, but is misleading because the bees processing has been omitted. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:19:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm here in Kansas City. Curiously enough it turns out to be in Missouri. Anyhow, I thought I'd pass on a few items of the many that I picked up over the past week, here and in Baton Rouge. * The Russian bees are the Real Thing. All the co-operators agree, and are going over to 100% Russian as fast as they can. These bees require no treatments for either mite and are as productive as the domestic controls. They winter on less feed and in smaller clusters than most domestic US bees. The only downside apparent is that for early pollination, more work -- or more hives -- may be required. The word is to be sure to get Russian stock only from suppliers that have had Russians for more than one year and who have brought in new Russian breeders for several years to ensure a high degree of Russian genetics, and a mix of Russian blood. Of course controlled mating in reasonable isolation goes without saying. * The SHB found in Australia turns out to be a different variety than the one in the US. This is significant in that Canadian authorities, after an initial closure of package and queen imports from Aus in response to the original SHB disclosure, reopened Canada to Australian stock after assurances that any exports would be from locations 14 miles or more from known SHB apiaries. Does Canada know that this is a new pest, or did Canada make an decision based on the assumption that the Aus beetle is no different from the one in the US, and which was found briefly in Manitoba before control measures were taken? Will added precautions be in order? Will the Canada border be closed again to Australian imports? Should it be? There's more, but I'm out of time. Oh, yes, I did meet Bob Harrison in the flesh. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:45:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: dark blue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit muses wrote: >Do you worry about the wax melting on the hot days? Or do you add extra >ventilation durring that time. > If the question is directed to Maine, no. If we have temps over 95F, the world as we know it has come to an end. However, this is the normal temp inside the hive where brood is. I have the typical notched inner cover and that is the extent of summer ventilation. (I have the same setup for winter.) Normally in the summer it is in the 70s or low 80s. When we cross the bridge from New Hampshire to Maine, the temp drops ten degrees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -where is was 0F lst night and will be lower tomorrow night (about -10F) Bees all have their electric blankets on. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Las Vegas, Nevada beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm forwarding this to BEE-L for a non-list member. Please respond (if you care to) directly to: Laszlo.Pentek@dc.gov Subject: Las Vegas, Nevada beekeeping I am a beekeeper from Northern Virginia that plans to be on travel to Las Vegas, NV later this month. I was wondering if there was anything worth seeing/visiting etc. during my free time that is related to beekeeping, apiary science or honey production in the Las, Vegas area. As you might have guessed casinos do not interest me - already seen the strip - been there done that. Aside from an excursion to the Hoover Dam my free time is still open. I'd appreciate any info, suggestions, contacts, etc. Thanks for your help in advance. Best regards, -Laszlo Pentek ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:02:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Peck peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just found out that a woodpecker has been making holes in a few of my hives. Any good tips that don't involve killing the bird? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:16:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Feral Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, A very interesting article entitled" Bees in the Forest, Still" was published in the January edition of the Bee Culture. Tom Seeley resurved an area for feral bees and compared the results with a survey he conducted in 1978. Seems there is about twice as many feral colonies as before! Could the ferals be rebounding from the mites? Mark Winston in last month's Bee Culture noted a surviving feral colony In France that triggered a trail of research. Yoon in Oklahoma, Dave Green in the southeast and Adrian on the west coast have reported finding surviving feral bees. Is anyone else observing this? Very interesting stuffl Dennis Living where feral bees were few to none even in the best of times. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:16:39 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Peck peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mat, Old texts suggest covering the hive(s) with chicken wire - just far enough away from the woodwork, so that the woodpecker cannot do the damage. Questions: 1. What kind of woodpecker is it? 2. Is it attacking the hand hold area (that is if you have such things on your hive)? Also, try putting up a bird feeder containing good quality peanuts - I suggest that the bird is quite hungry during the cold weather! -distraction. Good luck - and don't kill the bird! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:12:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Colour recognition Comments: cc: wells@utulsa.edu, phwells@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <002701c2bbe1$90456d60$8c1ae150@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dave Cushman wrote: >What I was trying to say is that it is no use taking a miniature camera >(endoscope) and placing it behind the lens of a bee's eye. The resulting >picture may be amusing to humans, but is misleading because the bees >processing has been omitted. Allen Dick added: Motion seems to play a large role in what bees 'see'. It seems to me that when motion is involved, bees are able to use the additional information generated by motion to enhance (over time) what we imagine they 'see' from considering the static image inputs. ******** Both Dave and Allen hit the nail on the head. Despite all our rinky-dinky experiments, we still know VERY little about what insects see. For instance, I have noticed that fast moving honey bees that approach a cyclone (chain link) fence go up and over it, even though they could very well fly right through the openings. By contrast, I have seen dragonflies (with reputedly superior eyesight) fly right into cyclone fences. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:42:16 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Russian Stocks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Following on from Allen Dick's comments relating to Russian Stock - and their apparent ability to withstand Acarine/ Varroa mites. Whilst being most interested in their abilities - it must be remembered that a wide genetic pool is most essential and must be maintained. The rush to switch to a particular type of bee - even if it has very good characteristics is most dangerous. Look back - Italians were the craze. What did that bring in its baggage? To loose sight of bio-diversity ensures problems in the future. Hoping that not all breeders will move over to a restricted bee type. Peter Still below freezing (-2°C) at night, but bees having reasonable cleansing flights during the sunny daylight periods ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:59:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've discussed the treat of tracheal mites (TM) here before. Some of us were saying we never treat any more, that TM is no longer a threat. Then, several years ago, TM related losses were again reported and we changed our tune. We started to test and to treat. A chart I saw at Baton Rouge sheds light on why some say TM is no threat and others say that it is eating their bees alive, and the rest of us are not sure. I've posted the chart and some comments at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:33:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Peck peck In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I just found out that a woodpecker has been making holes in a few of my hives. > >Any good tips that don't involve killing the bird? The best I've found is to use bird-netting over the tops of hives. It also works against raccoons, etc. Those animals can't stand getting tangled up in the netting. Of course, one can find that and other tips in the following book: 2001 Klein, H.D. and A.M. Wenner. Tiny Game Hunting: Environmentally Healthy Ways to Trap and Kill the Pests in Your House and Garden. Univ. of California Press: Berkeley. Why use poisons when other techniques work so well? Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Colour inhancements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So What would happen if we paint dark blue and add a large symbol or dot for each hive? Im very interested in the increase in production. Is there any place I might find more info? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steven Lassovszky Subject: Re: Feral Bees Regarding west coast feral bees: Yes! There are alot of feral bees here. You may remember I got started beekeeping in September by taking a feral hive from a friend's wall. Some other beekeepers here are busy removing bees all the time. In any case, I work at a lab near San Fernando Valley, and I always notice alot of bee traffic. I put some honey out there and within a half hour I had bees coming from 3 different directions. I followed one of the paths, and in short order they started checking me out on their way to the honey. I decided to back off at that point, you never know around here where there might be an aggressive hive. I was thinking of putting on some gear and looking for the bees on a day off. I may have more time to find where they are at and determine if they are too "mean" to mess with. I am keeping my bees about a mile from the lab, along with 25 or so other beehives owned by another beekeeper. I suspect these feral bees may be swarms from the beeyard that have settled in the nearby hills. The bees in the yard have become aggressive in the past, and required re-queening the entire apiary to calm them down (chasing vehicles, unworkable temperment, etc). I'm a little concerned about crashing around looking for bees here, but I might have a go at it sometime. As to why they are here, who knows? Is it because they are working all year and never have any "downtime" during the winter? The person who's house I removed the bees from reports that they had been there for years. I did not have the knowledge at that time to check the feral drone comb for mites, and the bees have been treated with strips since then. Steve