From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:17:56 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D23448983 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZd2011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0301C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 185321 Lines: 4174 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:49:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian I have also noticed differences according to the speed of flight. I had a row of hives at one time along a post and rail fence, but about six feet from it. Along the top of the fence was a run of chicken wire with nominal 19-25 mm holes. The hive entrances were facing the fence and bees on the leaving leg of their flight, might fly through the gaps in the fence or through the mesh, but bees on the return journey went mainly over the top edge of the wire, very rarely would they fly through the mesh, and I do not remember seeing any returning bees fly through the fence itself. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 04:47:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Oh, yes, I did meet Bob Harrison in the flesh. Allen and I have met and Allen introduced me to Jerry B. of the list. Two other BEE-L members and I have talked briefly but they were also at Savannah last year. I will be at the Missouri State Beekeepers booth at break times and am helping on Thursday with the Alternative Mite treatments workshop along with my business partner. The people doing the workshop are from another country and asked the Missouri State Beekeepers Assn. for help. We provided the bee equipment for the workshop. I can not *at this time* recommend their methods but will keep an open mind. All Bee-L people attending the American Beekeepers convention reading the post which want to meet and introduce yourself can catch me for sure at the above places. Look forward to meeting fellow BEE-L members! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:57:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > I've posted the chart and some comments at > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Very interesting! now the next question... Have we any ideas of the racial type and/or lineage of the samples in question? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:15:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Peck peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The enclosed message was posted by Joe Trattle Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Peck peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: >Also, try putting up a bird feeder containing good quality peanuts - I suggest that the bird is >quite hungry during the cold weather! >-distraction. >Good luck - and don't kill the bird! > > > We have many woodpeckers in our area with no damage to wooden hives. We put out suet with nuts in it and woodpeckers love it. Before we did that we would have wakeup calls from their tapping on the house. None since we put out the suet. You can buy it at most stores that have bird feed (along with a suet feeder) or make it yourself. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me (did get to -9F last night, so time to change to long sleeve shirts. Getting brisk.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:26:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Feral Bees Steve wrote The person who's house I removed the bees from reports that they had been there for years. I did not have the knowledge at that time to check the feral drone comb for mites, and the bees have been treated with strips since then. Steve Steve,you might want to consider a second apiary for your new swarms so you can quarantine them. I'm about 3 hours north of you, and the last two swarms I was hired to remove both had foul brood. Remember in a large percentage of the cases with feral hives, previous hives have died out, and the new swarms take up residence and get re-infected. Tim Vaughan tvaughan@charter.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses In-Reply-To: <003b01c2bc88$81bb38e0$fa57e150@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Very interesting! now the next question... Have we any ideas of the racial >type and/or lineage of the samples in question? I would think advertising by breeder #5 would only help to get other breeders selecting for T mite resistance. Any way to find out who that is. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:35:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Organization: Superbee Subject: peck peck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blue seems to be a better colour for scaring birds - they use blue = plastic sacks to protect bananas here and in Israel. For grapes you = should use long thin strips tied to the vines. Apparently they think = that these are snakes when the move with the wind and don not then = attack the grapes. Best regards Roger White ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:33:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Very interesting! now the next question... Have we any ideas of the racial > >type and/or lineage of the samples in question? > I would think advertising by breeder #5 would only help to get other > breeders selecting for T mite resistance. Any way to find out who that is. Well, I'll try to follow this up, but I was sitting in Jose's lab and noticed this chart on the wall. I stood up and took a photograph of it without discussing it at the time other than to ask a few passing questions. Only later did it hit me how significant it is. As for identifying the suppliers, I think that their co-operation was recruited by promising anonymity. Moreover this is a small sample. Jerry B said he thinks if we took enough samples over time, the suppliers might all look pretty much the same. Nonetheless, the suppliers now have a wake-up call and I am sure they know where they stand. I'll bet they are working to get with the program As They say, "The future is here now; it's just not evenly distributed." You can take this up with the research people next time you see them, or join me in pushing for a certifying agency to ensure that queens measure up to the advertising. Backwoods Apiaries in TN is now offering TM susceptibility testing for queen producers and I know that Gus is using it, for one. He said so. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ahoy! Dave and Adrian, To confound it all, I see my bees fly THROUGH my chicken wire into the coop to wallow in the dust of cracked corn that I feed my Rhodes Island Reds with. Some do fly four feet up to avoid the wire, but most fly right *through* the thin [almost invisible]wire mesh. Since no pollen is available, other than scarce dandelion blossoms in pockets, I did put out pollen supplement [largely, soy flour mixed with thick sugar], which they pack into their goulashes in frenzy. But many of them still take corn dust; others are even into the chicken “grower” feed!? [Now don’t ask me if the grower will do better than the pollen supplement for brood rearing!] It indeed is difficult to pigeonhole nature into NEAT, anthropomorphic categories although such classification will help us immensely as we, a rational animal, must impose ORDER in nature. Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:14:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Allen for posting that chart. =20 In case any members didn't notice, Allen correctly referred to those = with stock tested for tracheal mites as "queen producers", and not = "queen breeders". IMHO, we have mostly the former in the US, and very = few of the latter. However, many call themselves "queen breeders", so = beware. One of the true queen breeders is Sue Cobey who maintains her New World = Carniolan stock at Ohio State. Many west coast "queen producers" use = her stock and advertise it as NWC. For tracheal mite infections on her = breeding stock see http://iris.biosci.ohio-state.edu/honeybee/breeding. = (Early spring mite infestation levels for overwintered colonies have = been running at 2%-3% for several years.) I don't know of any other = queen breeder or queen producer who is annually reporting on tracheal = mite infection levels. I happen to order my California queens from Pat Heitkam, who advertises = in the magazines. I highly recommend them. Pat has told me that all of = his NWC breeders are directly from Sue. In other words, he is not = mating from daughters, granddaughters, etc. from Sue's stock but = directly from queens she has tested and sent him as breeder stock. The advantage of this to those of us who buy his stock is that 50% of = the genetics is known to a relative certainty. The remaining 50%, from = open-mating with drones, is far from known. Because of the economics = involved, I doubt that many other producers use the breeding stock to = produce queens that are shipped to you and I...but I don't really know. = (The tested breeding stock queens go for $500 each!) I have been using NWC/Heitkam stock for many years, so the genetics = should be reasonably well established in my yards. I have not treated = for Tracheal mites for more than five years, and judge that I have few = losses. But I have not looked under a microscope. Hope this helps, =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment=20 for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:22:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >You can take this up with the research people next time you see them, or >join me in pushing for a certifying agency to ensure that queens measure up >to the advertising. Allen, you are in Canada. What do you know about the Ontario Bee Breeders? Medhat Nasser set up a program for TM resistant stock while at Guelph. I was at a meeting in Beekmantown, NY in April, where he gave a talk. Several of the breeders were there, and claimed good results. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:03:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen, you are in Canada. What do you know about the Ontario Bee > Breeders? Medhat Nasser set up a program for TM resistant stock while at > Guelph. I was at a meeting in Beekmantown, NY in April, where he gave a > talk. Several of the breeders were there, and claimed good results. Funny you mention that. I was just talking to Medhat on the phone a few moments ago. He's in Alberta now as our Provincial Apiculturalist and working hard for IPM and stock improvement. The Ontario project has had great results. Medhat brought in Primorsky Russian stock from the US, too, so Ontario breeders have both, and interbred them to evaluate the result. The original Ontario stock, itself, has great tracheal resistance, and hygienic properties, but has average susceptibility to varroa. The mix with Russians has intermediate properties. Some Ontario breeders have a very good reputation. Barrie Davies and Paul Monteux (and others) have a very good Buckfast program and sell Abbey-approved Buckfast stock into the northern US as well as supplying discerning customers in Ontario. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/default.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Colour inhancements Comments: cc: muses@SURFERIE.NET In-Reply-To: <0ba801c2bc33$c0ce6160$5375af3f@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Im very interested in the increase in production. Is there any place I might >find more info? I believe the increase production was caused by increased population due to bees drifting from the light colored hives to dark colored hives (Note in the trial all the hives were apparently at one site.) So painting all your hives dark simply wont work (unless you have a close neighbor who has white hives :) -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: Seminar on March 22 in Albany NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Spring into Beekeeping with SABA’s 2003 Seminar The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association is working hard to bring another great seminar to the Northeast. On March 22, 2003, an all-day presentation of top-notch speakers will take place on the State University of New York (SUNY) Albany campus. This year, we are pleased to present an excellent group of the bee world greats. Our confirmed speakers are: Dr. Thomas Seeley Professor of Neurobiology and Behavior and Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Associate Professor of Entomology both of Cornell University; Kirk Webster, northern Vermont commercial beekeeper and queen breeder; and Jim Tew, Associate Professor of Entomology at Ohio State University, well known author of several books and innumerable Bee Culture articles. Topics will be finalized soon. A block of discounted rooms will be reserved at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across the street. When people call to reserve rooms, they should call by Feb. 22 and mention the "beekeeping seminar" to get the discount. The rooms are available for March 21 and/or March 22. Marriott Fairfield 1-800-544-4641, ext. 2185 (Jenny Durbin), or ext. 2128 (Jennifer Ueland) 1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 12206 $74 + tax = $80 for non-smoking room with 2 queen size beds. Hotel has a pool, whirlpool, and complimentary Continental breakfast. The cost for the seminar will be $25 per person or $40 for couples. This includes a morning coffee/snack break. At lunch, attendees will be able to use the 4 cafeterias on campus, or drive a short distance for a variety of small restaurants. If registering after March 8, a $10 late charge will be added to each person’s fee. A raffle or silent auction of items donated by dealers will take place as well. Thank you for your interest, Anne Frey, SABA President AnneF@capital.net (518) 895-8744 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Trachael mites In-Reply-To: <000b01c2bcb9$89f37280$0e256118@nycap.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:14 PM 1/15/03 -0500, you wrote: >One of the true queen breeders is Sue Cobey who maintains her New World >Carniolan stock at Ohio State. Any connection to Ohio Queen Breeders (Also of Columbus, Ohio)? What they are doing sounds similar. Their selection process doesn't specifically include trachael mites. There selection includes varroa, productivity, gentleness, overwinering, etc. But they do monitor trachael mites and their numbers are amazingly low. I've only seen their impressive numbers, but alas, I can't afford their $500 breeder queens. I have however purchased a couple of open mated queens from a producer using their breeder queens. Only got them recently so I don't even have a good feel how they will fair. Maybe after this next year. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:46:00 -0500 James Fischer writes: > > Without any testing at all, one can state with certainty that bees can differentiate > one flower from another by vision alone, so markers that are nothing but simplified > and enlarged patterns copied from photos of flowers taken under UV light should be > a good "drift preventer". To be truly effective wouldn't the "enlarged patterns copied from photos of flowers taken under UV light" have to be painted on the hives in a such a way that made them visible to bees but invisible to humans? What I mean is, wouldn't these floral patterns have to be painted with a paint that can be seen only under UV light? (Is there such a paint?) Is a pattern that is visible to the human eye in natural light as effective a "drift preventer" as one that is only visible under UV light? How important is the color that is visible to the human eye in attracting bees to the flower? Do bees see a relationship between this color that and the pattern seen under UV light? Are bees initially attracted to the color that is visible to the human eye and then as they get closer to the flower guided in by the pattern that is visible under UV light? Or is the pattern seen under UV light all that matters to them? Thank you. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:30:39 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Queen quality controls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Missed you comments as made in Niagara! - so, would you please quickly list your wishes on how you see that queen quality maybe improved via. a certifying agency. Only having given about 2 minute thought (apologies), will it eventually come down to who is the most powerful! The queen producers or the buying beekeepers. I do suggest that in the future, that Mr. average queen purchaser is not going to accept pot luck - due to all the pressures that bee colonies are under. Some may want clear +/- S.D descriptions (relating to specific indices) on material brought in. Whether this is possible or advisable - comment welcome! Peter Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:35:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bee-L members: Tracheal mites continue to be a problem. It depends on where you are located. Colonies with high infestations in the south do not suffer from colony mortality by tracheal mites. Colonies with similar high infestations in the north experience high winter mortality. The experienced colony mortality in the north has become cyclic. Look at previous years' records, you will find that high winter mortality of bee colonies with tracheal mites occur every 3-5 years in the northern states. It depends on winter conditions. I conducted a survey in NJ when I was at Rutgers University. I found that colonies wintered in the south (Florida) had high levels of tracheal mites. As soon as these colonies moved up north to New Jersey in early spring for Blueberry pollination, you can find dead bees in front of the hives. Those dead bees had high infestation levels with tracheal mites. Meanwhile, colonies that wintered and survived the winter in New Jersey, they had very low mite levels. By fall, we sampled again bee colonies that were going back to Florida, we found that the mite levels were up to 20-40% infestation. This high level of tracheal mites could explain why beekeepers have to move their bees quiet fast to Florida for wintering to avoid winter losses in New Jersey. Looking at the chart posted in Allen's web site, you will find that out of 5 tested commercial operations: 1. Two operations (Operation 3 & 5) could be considered good 2. Two operations (operation 2 & 6) are no good 3. Two operations (Operations 2 & 7) are moderate This could explain that the tracheal mite problem still exists. Beekeepers will have different opinions about the problem based on their location and wintering conditions and source of queens used (resistant vs. susceptible stock). Remember, the USA and Canada have wide range of climatic conditions. Medhat Medhat Nasr, PH. D. Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca Allen Wrote: Some of us were saying we never treat any more, that TM is no longer a threat. Then, several years ago, TM related losses were again reported and we changed our tune. A chart I saw at Baton Rouge sheds light on why some say TM is no threat and others say that it is eating their bees alive, and the rest of us are not sure. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Hoguet said: > To be truly effective wouldn't the "enlarged patterns copied from photos > of flowers taken under UV light" have to be painted on the hives in a > such a way that made them visible to bees but invisible to humans? In spite of the folks who say "we have no idea what bees really see", and then go on to report what fences their bees can see, thus sending us all into a logic tailspin, I'll try to answer your question as best I can. I don't feel that using "UV colors" in markers would be required. Bees clearly have the hardware to detect a reasonable range of colors, just as humans do. While this hardware would force them to see red as they would black, the ultraviolet range on the high end of the frequency scale would be "just another color", with no special significance. Is "red" special to humans just because bees see it as "the same as black"? No, of course not. Its just another color to us. Likewise, do dogs hear lower frequencies "differently" just because they can also hear higher frequencies? I dunno, but I whistle a different "tune" to call each of my dogs, and they each hear and recognize their individual summonses > What I mean is, wouldn't these floral patterns have to be painted with > a paint that can be seen only under UV light? I think not. I think that the only hurdle is to pick colors that contrast well in terms of being "far apart" from each other in a strict "how many angstroms" terms. I've yet to read of any papers from anyone who used UV colors on their markers > (Is there such a paint?) Sure there is. They even have ink. Posters in the 60s and early 1970s often had "Black Light" features. The Iron Butterfly "In Da Gadda Da Vida" poster was a good example. > Is a pattern that is visible to the human eye in natural light as effective a > "drift preventer" as one that is only visible under UV light? This would be an interesting experiment, but I'd guess that it would be no more effective than any other high-contrast color choice. > How important is the color that is visible to the human eye in attracting > bees to the flower? Dunno, but many flowers (every one? I'm not sure) that provide nectar and pollen has some sort of UV component to its "display". If this is irrelevant to attracting pollinators, then why does the trait exist? Common traits are "common" because they are important to making more of the same plant. > Do bees see a relationship between this color that and the pattern > seen under UV light? Dunno. > Are bees initially attracted to the color that is visible to the human eye and then > as they get closer to the flower guided in by the pattern that is visible under UV light? Dunno, but this makes sense, given that the UV pattern would only be visible once the bee is "above" the flower, rather than "beside" it. > Or is the pattern seen under UV light all that matters to them? Again, dunno. But I doubt it. Like I said, UV would be "just another color" to them. They certainly aren't going to be fooled into thinking that the marker is a pollen or necatar source regardless. I guess this would be rather like putting a large neon sign on my roof saying "Eat At Joe's". It would be a valid way to identify my house from the road at night, but it would be kinda "weird". jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave & Yoon wrote: >bees on the leaving leg of their flight, might fly through the gaps in the fence or through the mesh, but bees on the return journey went mainly over the top edge of the wire >I see my bees fly THROUGH my chicken wire into the coop to wallow in the dust of cracked corn that I feed my Rhodes Island Reds with. Some do fly four feet up to avoid the wire, but most fly right *through* the thin [almost invisible]wire mesh. Hi Yoon: Do they fly THROUGH the wire in both directions, or do they fly over the wire on the return trip? Another paragraph from Wilson’s ‘The Insect Societies’: “In further experiments Hertz discovered that bees have a spontaneous preference for the most dissected figures while they are searching for food. At first this response was considered to be a fundamental attraction to complex patterns, but later experiments revealed that, once the bees have fed and are attempting to return home, they prefer the opposite stimulus, namely, the simplest possible figures.” I guess, though, as Adrian pointed out all this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:22:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd > Allen correctly referred to those with stock tested for tracheal mites > as "queen producers", and not "queen breeders". Now here is a difference that I have never before fully appreciated... It explains the vast difference in cost of US/UK queens. I believe that queens should be 'up to a standard' rather than 'down to a price'. Breeding in UK is not on the large scale as in US, but it is true 'breeding & selection' with plenty of qualitative testing going on as well. The problem that I see with Allen Dick's proposed 'benchmark' system is the natural racial and between strain variances, apart from variability. Variability is 'future generations' of stock... Might we be blunting the edge by striving for a prescribed set of standards? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Albrecht Pausch Subject: Queens not hatching During the past season we had a major problem in breeding queens. There may be a connection to insectizides/fungizides used in rape. However a virus (e.g. BQCV) may also be a cause to the problem. So far we have not got a clue - so I am posting it here. We processed everything exactly the same way as usual. We had good weather and good nectar flow mainly from rape seed. We started off with 90 cells cups with larvae. About 60 queen cells were capped in time. They day before they were supposed to hatch the cells where placed into small queenless colonies (2 combes with bees) with mostly capped brood. So far so good. But now only 30 queens hatched in time. A few others about 2 days later. They were very slowly moving - a bit like being drunk. (they "disappeared" later on) We opened the unhatched cells and we found mostly white unfinished queens sometimes with some black/brownish spots . From the 30 queens hatched only 24 got into laying proper eggs. Luckily we got spare cells from a bee keeper in the area to make up for some of the loss. At that time he did not have those problems. The queens did hatsch in time. However during his next cycle of raising queens he saw the same problem even worse. Does any one have seen similar things ? What can we do to avoid it happening again ? Best regards Albrecht ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight Ahoy! Dick, According to my *casual* observation, the bees seem to take the shortest possible route, having once figured it out although during their initial search, they do a zigzag flight around the mesh as if to figure out how to get at the corn dust in the chicken feeder. Next they fly through the mesh with ease a few more times; however, as Dave pointed out, they appear to fly clear over the fence and land vertically like a helicopter would once they realized the shortcut. Nevertheless, I would like to verify my observation by spending more time at the chicken coop next time when it is warm. We are, this is the fly in the ointment, in the thick of winter here in the People's Repuiblic of Oklahoma (between January 12 through 17) when the average low is about 25 F. Give me another week or so with improving weather. I will do a better job. My bees are, I have been watching them, usually up and about when the temp hits around 47 F [commandoes] and 54 F [the regulars] although I even observed them flying a ground-hugging, bullet-flight, at lower temp, especially if they had been cooped up longer than two weeks. On a different note, Dick, do you have ferral bees in Alaska? Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:41:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Ohio Queen Breeders and NWC's Tim asked whether the work being done by Ohio Queen Breeders is 'the same as' the NWC work being done by Sue Cobey at Ohio State? Ohio Queen Breeders is Dr. Joseph (Joe) Latshaw, PhD. A former student of Sue's. I think, but am not certain, that he is doing postgraduate work at the same lab where Sue works. However, THEIR LINES ARE NOT THE SAME. I do not know anything about Joe's strains or his work. I had a few conversations with Joe over the years (before he completed his PhD), and I guess I can say I worked alongside him very briefly on one occasion. Very, very knowledgeable and very polite and pleasant in every way. Technically, I guess there is nothing wrong with Joe calling his operation Ohio Queen Breeders, but several persons knowledgeable of his work at Ruthenburger and with Sue Cobey have incorrectly assumed that they (his work and Sue's) are one and the same. This is incorrect and on some level they are competitors. I hope that Joe did not choose the name because he thought the (incorrect) association with Sue would be to his advantage. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Colour recognition Well, this has been an interesting thread, and I've learned much. In South Africa, I had my scut hives fairly close together because of the need to have them raised,(some of the ants can be meaner that the bees) and when drifting occured, there wasn't the gentle tugging that I see here in Ca., but intense homicide (apicide?). My best results were to make several marks of different shapes, and of different numbers and on different parts of the hives, which were all white. So, there would be an "X" (all markings in black) right in the middle, and next to it 3 solid circles spread in a line on the top. Next to this, Two big squares, one on the upper right, the second on the lower left, and so on and on. This eliminated the fighting literally in one day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Colour recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Indeed the discussion of colour recognition has been very interesting. I hope the off-shore subscribers have appreciated the spelling! An interesting web site http://www.naturfotograf.com/nrfotobj.html has been brought to my attention, that features UV and IR photography. Flowers are featured on a sub-page of this site at: http://www.naturfotograf.com/UV_flowers_list.html#top Check it out! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: Colour Recognition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer writes: I think that the only hurdle is to pick colors that contrast well in terms of being "far apart" from each other in a strict "how many angstroms" terms. Tim Vaughan writes: My best results were to make several marks of different shapes, and of different numbers and on different parts of the hives, which were all white...(all markings in black) In his book "Principles of Color," Faber Birren writes: "If the areas concerned are large in size, as on the checkerboard..., strong differences in value and hue will cause startling visual effects. Here black and white and complementary hues are most dynamic. On the other hand, if values or colors of strong difference are presented in minute areas, spots, or lines, and diffused by the eye, they will tend to cancel each other and dullness will result. Red and green "juxtaposed" are vibrant and impulsive. Red and green "diffused" will produce a muddy brown. In short, opposite colors are best featured in large areas -- juxtaposed. Adjacent or analogous colors are well featured in minute areas -- diffused." (Faber Birren, Principles of Color, Schiffer Publishing Ltd.: West Chester, PA 1987, p.34) Birren gives a black and white checkerboard pattern as an example of color juxtaposition and very thin black and white lines drawn next to one another as an example of color diffusion. (p. 33) If Birren is correct, are a flower's visible colors and "UV color" adjacent or analogous colors that are "diffused" over a small surface area? Isn't a checkerboard pattern (or an equally bold pattern) a better guidepost than a floral pattern when featured on a large surface area such as a hive because it gives black and white and complementary hues greater contrast? Opposite colors appear to require a large surface area and bold patterns for maximum effect. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:08:44 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Colour recognition In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A101794F@email.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Indeed the discussion of colour recognition has been very interesting. I hope > the off-shore subscribers have appreciated the spelling! Yes indeed!! One point in all this. The discussions seem to indicate that bees see UV *and* the colours of what *we* call the visible spectrum as though they see the two independently. This is a bit like saying we see red at one end of the visible spectrum and blue at the other end - when in fact what we see is purple. Virtually all the colours we see are a combination of various wavelengths. So what do bees see when they detect a combination of mostly yellow light and UV light? Bzzznectalot, their favourite colour!! Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Russian Stocks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Would you please mention which producers have what you would consider good Russian queens? How does a lay beekeeper tell? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Ohio Queen Breeders and NWC's >>several persons knowledgeable of his work at Ruthenburger and with Sue Cobey That should be *Rothenbuhler* Honey Bee Laboratory pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:32:32 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Bees in Space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know the subject line sounds like a corny 1950s sci-fi series (I can just= imagine the title announced with great drama by the voice over man on TV),= but it is actually happening at this moment. There are bees in space,= orbiting in the shuttle that launched today. Here's the news that I just= received from Steve Buchmann. >Bees in Space! > >Today, at 10:39 EST (January 16, 2003), three shiny black bee >astronauts (Arizona carpenter bees, Xylocopa c. arizonensis) were >launched from Pad 39-A into orbit on the STS-107 mission onboard the >U.S. Space Shuttle Columbia. The human and pollinator astronauts >will land in Florida on February 1st after many orbits and a flight >duration of 15 days and 22 hours in orbit. The bees were part of an >experiment designed by NAPPC steering committee member Stephen >Buchmann (The Bee Works and University of Arizona) and a class of >eager High School students from Lichtenstein. The students were in >Florida to watch their bees really become airborne. CNN carried the >launch live and mentioned that carpenter bees were one of the insect >student payloads aboard the flight, commanded by Rick Husband and >carrying the first Israeli astronaut. > >Live and pre-recorded images will soon be available broadcast from >orbit. You can see how the bees in space are doing by investigating >the following hyperlinks online. > >STS-107, the 113th shuttle mission >http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-107/mission-sts-107.html > >Carpenter Bee Videos and stills (flight and ground movies) >http://www.starsacademy.com/sts107/experiments/bees/bee_frameset.htm > >Lichtenstein student website >http://www.starsacademy.com/sts107/students/liechtenstein.htm >and http://www.spacebees.li/ > ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:37:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Understanding tracheal mite losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/01/03 05:03:47 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Tracheal mites continue to be a problem. It depends on where you are located. Colonies with high infestations in the south do not suffer from colony mortality by tracheal mites. Colonies with similar high infestations in the north experience high winter mortality. >> Could it be that in the south there are more days of flying weather and crops to fly to? Adult infested bees are then more likely to spend more time in the field and die there, spending less time rubbing shoulders with vulnerable youngsters in the hive than those in less favoured areas. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Understanding tracheal mite losses In-Reply-To: <40.2a41580e.2b589c44@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Could it be that in the south there are more days of flying weather and crops >to fly to? Or maybe that colonies in the south continue raising brood at a low level all winter, unlike bees in the north that have a broodless cycle. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Understanding Tracheal Mite Losses Chris Slade wrote "Could it be that in the south there are more days of flying weather and crops to fly to? Adult infested bees are then more likely to spend more time in the field and die there, spending less time rubbing shoulders with vulnerable youngsters in the hive than those in less favoured areas." I think my old friend Chris, and my new friend Medhat are right. I never needed to worry about THOSE mites either in Southern California or South Africa. Sometimes (not often) I would see signs of defecation on the hive (yellowish spots that run slightly), but that was usually associated with high mite levels. If the mites are under control, then in climates where the bees can "use the bathroom" and are generally healthy, I've never seen a problem with Tracheal Mites, and I'd be glad for someone to reply who has seen a problem under these conditions. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:21:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bees in Space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Matthew: I’d imagine you remember or have read about the bees sent into space back in the 1980's. This is from one of Eva Crane’s books: “Reactions of 3400 A. mellifera workers, with a queen, to zero gravity were tested during 7 days on a NASA shuttle mission (Vandenberg et al., 1985). The bees flew within a small flight chamber, constructed 200 square cm of comb, and stored sugar syrup within it; mortality was low. The queen laid about 35 eggs, but these did not survive transfer to a hive on their return to earth. The geometry of the comb built in space was nearly normal.” Vandenberg, J.D. & 4 others (1985) Survival, behaviour and comb construction by honey bees, Apis mellifera, in zero gravity aboard NASA Shuttle Mission STS-13. Apidologie 16(4): 369-383 Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Our eyes have rods and cones. Dim light does not stimulate the cones, which is why the world becomes colorless to us a night. Some nocturnal animals, such as toads, mice, rats, and bats, have retinas made up almost entirely of rods, and some diurnal animals, such as some reptiles, have almost entirely cones. R.E. Snodgrass writes this: “It is particularly difficult to understand how colors are distinguished, since there is no known mechanism in the insect corresponding to the rods and cones of a vertebrate eye.” Eva Crane writes this: “It has been known for some time that tropical African A. mellifera forages on moonlit nights. Dyer (1987) has shown that A. dorsata can forage when the moon is between half-full and full, and when she dances, her wagtail run indicates the direction not of the moon, but of the (hidden) sun.” So, does the bee see in color at night? This discussion began when Trevor, located down there toward the lower part of the planet, asked for a simple list of colours beekeepers might be using to aid in queen returns. I wonder if he isn’t, perhaps, sitting in front of his computer display, shaking his head and thinking: ‘Those damn fools up there!’ Regards, Dick Allen (thinking [as Aaron might say] there is more to bee vision than meets the eye.) P.S. no feral bees in Alaska that I’m aware of Yoon. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:46:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Robert E Butcher Sr." Subject: queen raising needing some test tubes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am looking for some test tubes. In the size of 2 1/2 in. long by 5/8 in. dia. I am looking for a about fifty of them. Dos anyone know where I could get these at this size? Thank you, Bob (aka grabapawn) Tucson Arizona Have problems with bees? Need honey,or pollen? Want to play a game of chess? Let's talk. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:45:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Understanding tracheal mite losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: >Could it be that in the south there are more days of flying weather and crops >to fly to? > > One thing I learned about tracheal and its lack of effect during warm weather is that pollen seems to be a mite propagation suppressor. So once pollen starts the mites seem to have little effect. Also, most of what I have read shows a direct correlation between crowding, mites and the eventual spread of disease. Since both of the two former are the typical conditions of a long, cold winter, it means that we in the North are more likely to have tracheal mites cause winter problems than the South. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:21:47 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen quoted thusly: > R.E. Snodgrass writes this: "It is particularly difficult to understand how > colors are distinguished, since there is no known mechanism in the insect > corresponding to the rods and cones of a vertebrate eye." This is apparently an older publication. There are multiple references citing the exact nature of bee vision, and listing the exact types of sensors that bees have. Do a web search on "ommatidia" and "bee", and read all about them. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: queen raising needing some test tubes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Science Teacher at your local high school could probably tell you what catalog he orders out of. I used to use Edmund Scientific. Their website is www.edsci.com ------------------------------------------ Mike Rossander Cap Gemini Ernst & Young 1-216-583-1794 (office) 1-216-533-8294 (mobile) mike.rossander@cgey.com "Robert E Butcher Sr." To: grabapawn@JUNO.COM Subject: [BEE-L] queen raising needing some test tubes Sent by: BEE-L@listserv.a lbany.edu 01/16/2009 11:46 PM Please respond to Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Hello All, I am looking for some test tubes. In the size of 2 1/2 in. long by 5/8 in. dia. I am looking for a about fifty of them. Dos anyone know where I could get these at this size? Thank you, Bob (aka grabapawn) Tucson Arizona Have problems with bees? Need honey,or pollen? Want to play a game of chess? Let's talk. ______________________________________________________________________ This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini/Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:14:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City To: Allen and All. Allen's original post from Kansas City, Missouri has two different subjects with both warranting further discussion. The second subject: "The SHB (Small Hive Beetle) found in Australia turns out to be a different variety than the one in the US"; is indeed significant; and IMHO needs further discussion! "The Speedy Bee" reported in Volume 31, Number 4, Page 10 of their August 2002 publication the following article: "USDA- APHIS Proposes Revising Regulations for Import of Bees". The article refers to the notice in the August 19, 2002 "Federal Register" pages 53844-53867. The USDA-APHIS proposes to "allow, under certain conditions, imports of honey bees from Australia, and honey bee germ plasm and honey bees from New Zealand". Public hearings and the period of review for the proposal were reported to have been completed as of November 18, 2002. The pests that have been introduced (to the US) within the last 15-20 years have been costly to the environment, the beekeeper, the public, and the feral honey bee. North Carolina in the last four years has gone from one county with the SHB to now over 39. As a commercial beekeeper with pollination contracts I find it difficult to schedule movement of bees with certain areas of various counties under quarantine. I also find the additional expense and time necessary to deal with this pest frustrating as I have yards both with and without the SHB. This pest tends to take advantage of weak hives or supers with honey and no bees. Reports that I have heard from Florida and South Carolina are more serious in that the SHB lays prolifically even in strong colonies. The feral honey bee in this part of the country still is having a very hard time trying to survive tracheal and Varroa mites, now it must also survive the SHB. The opening of doors to importation of Australia's variety of the SHB could possibly be of no consequence at all, or it could be quite to the contrary. A lot of time, sweat, heartbreak, and money has been spent with mite problems by both the beekeeper and the scientist. Our southwestern states are now trying to deal with another unwanted insect, the AHB, and like the SHB it is not going to go away. We need to find out as much as possible about this Down-under Aussie Beetle, or "Aethina tumida australis" and prevent its entry into the Americas, at least until we know that we can deal with it. I am afraid that the genetic diversity that the feral honeybee of the eastern United States and Canada carries may be lost in the not too near future due to the many problems that mankind has introduced since European settlement in the Americas began; but then, one of the things it began with was the European honey bee which has been of tremendous benefit to all. Perhaps one hundred years from now the feral honeybee will be a SMR Russian-NWC-Buckfast-SMR Carnolian-Minnesota Hygenic-SMR Italian-AHB cross, and honey bees will be more highly managed than they are today. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC High today: 38 Low tonight: 16 Two inches of snow on the ground and just about two more weeks until the red maple, Acer rubrum blooms! The Mahonia, Mahonia lomarifolia, in my Brown's Summit apiary has already started to bloom, spring can not be far away! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Allen and All, A postscript: The small hive beetle that we now have here in the US is Aethina tumida and is native to South Africa. There is another hive beetle in South Africa which is larger, Hyplostoma fuligineus. I wonder if this was Allen’s Australian SHB? Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:53:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >There are multiple references citing the exact nature of bee vision, and listing the exact types of sensors that bees have. >Do a web search on "ommatidia" and "bee", and read all about them. Do any of the references explain how a bee perceives what it sees? “It is well known that bees recognize objects with their compound eyes, that they perceive movement and distinguish colors and forms, *but we do not know how visual stimuli are registered in their nervous system*. [my italics] It is particularly difficult to understand how colors are distinguished, since there is no known mechanism in the insect eye corresponding to the rods and cones of a vertebrate eye. The rhabdom disperses whatever wave lengths of physical light it receives into the retinular cells, and with unpolarized light all the cells must be stimulated alike. Different wave lengths might be supposed to give different degrees of stimulation, but not different kinds of stimulation, and it seems doubtful if degrees of stimulation corresponding with wave lengths of light would be perceived as different colors. Yet experiments leave no doubt that bees distinguish colors by sight, at least from the red into the ultraviolet. *Physiologists, however, cannot explain how colors are registered in the human brain* [again, my italics. Do we now know?]. The perception of form by the compound eyes is perhaps less difficult to understand, since the ommatidia diverge in all directions from the optic lobes and a pattern of the visual field might be registered in them. The compound eye, however, seems best constructed for the perception of movement, and most insects are quickly aware of moving objects.” My apologies for causing any cognitive astigmatism. In my 20/20 hindsight I realize that more of Snodgrass’s explanation given in his “Anatomy of the Honey Bee” should have been quoted. Is there anything out there in cyberspace to explain how a bee perceives what it sees? Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Bees in Space In-Reply-To: <200301170721.h0H7JWoG025900@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "The bees flew within a small flight chamber, constructed 200 square cm of comb, and stored sugar syrup within it" I guess I can imagine them flying in zero gravity, but how could they store syrum in cells without gravity to hold it in before capping? Eugene Makovec __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A postscript: The small hive beetle that we now have here in the US is > Aethina tumida and is native to South Africa. There is another hive > beetle in South Africa which is larger, Hyplostoma fuligineus. I > wonder if this was Allen's Australian SHB? Apparently not. Apparently there are different varieties of the Aethina tumida and the ones in Aus come from a different region than those extant in the USA and are visably different. I understand that some Australians are aware of that. We weren't, at least on the beekeeper level. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Russian Stocks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would you please mention which producers have what you would consider > good Russian queens? How does a lay beekeeper tell? I'm sorry, I can't. I just took a snapshot of a graph on the lab wall and asked Jose a few questions. I'm sure I'll ask a few more, now that I realise the impact of the idea. Nnetheless, I would guess that the identies are confidential. Someday -- soon, I hope -- someone will have to bell this cat and start naming names. For now, Backwoods Apiaries in TN (if I got that right) does tests for breeders who care enough to be working on TM tolerance. It is expensive and takes time, and results are, I assume again, confidential. Nonethless, if anyone knows the proprietor, I am sure he/she would be happy to name breeders who are using the service, without saying who is good and who is bad. I should think that anyone who has used the service at all heavily for a few years should be improving over time, so that would be an indicator. Of course, you can buttonhole your supplier and ask exactly how he/she rates and how he/she knows and whether he/she uses the tests... I asked mine. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:54:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Durk Ellison Subject: Bee Products and Apitherapy Congress and Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Preliminary Program of the Second German Bee Products and Apitherapy Congress and Course with International Participation Name of the Congress: Second German Bee Products and Apitherapy Congress and Course with International Participation Place: Holiday Inn Hotel, Passau, Germany. Date: March 28 - April 2-nd., 2003 Entrance fees: 50 Euro (Congress, March 28-30, 2003); 150 Euro (Intensive Course, March 31-April 2-nd.) General Theme of the Congress: "Bee Products Properties and Clinical Use" Executive Council: · President of the Congress: Stefan Stangaciu, MD, L. Acup., Apitherapist · Api-Expo Coordinator: Arno Bruder, Beekeeping expert · Congress and Media Coordinator: Thomas Schachtner, Dipl. Inf. · Coordinators of the Heilpraktikern Group: HP Eleonore Peitz and HP Joachim Polik · Treasurer: Irene Schachtner · German Apitherapy Society Members: Bernhard Jakel, Hermann Forster, Franz Feuerschwenger, Carl-Wilhelm Düvel · Passau Beekeepers Club: · Johann Schachtner, President Invited Beekeepers Societies (as Co-organizers of the Congress): · German Beekeepers Association (Deutsche Imkerbund - DIB) · German Professional Beekeepers Association (Deutsche Erwerbsimkerbund - DEIB) · Austrian Beekeepers Association (Österreichische Imkerbund - ÖIB) · Austrian Professional Beekeepers Association (Österreichische Erwerbsimkerbund - ÖEIB) · Swiss Beekeepers Association · Luxemburg Association of Beekeepers · South Tyrol Association of Beekeepers (Südtirol Imkerbund) Scientific Committee · Prof. Dr. Eberhard Bengsch · Dr. (Pharm) Joachim Exner · Stefan Stangaciu, MD, L. Acup., Apitherapist Program Friday, March 28-th., 2003 9.00-14.00 h. - Registration of the Participants. Friday afternoon 14.00-14.30 h. - Api-Expo Official Tour 14.30-14.50 h. - Opening Ceremony 15.00-16.10 h. - Pollen Symposium Klaus Wallner - Methods to detect Residues in Bee Products 16.10-16.30 h. - Coffee break 16.30-19.00 h. - Bee Venom Symposium (Moderator: Dr. Dr. habil. Bernhard Jessberger) Dr. Dr. habil. Bernhard Jessberger - Hideto Fukuda (Japan) - Bee Venom Therapy in Japan. 19.00-20.00 h. Dinner 20.15-21.00 h. - German Folklore Show Saturday, March 29-th., 2003 09.00-10.40 h. - Honey Symposium Prof. Dr. G. Vorwohl - 10.40-11.00 h. - Coffee break 11.00-13.00 h. - Propolis Symposium (Moderator: Dr. Pharm. Joachim Exner) Dr. Pharm. Joachim Exner - 13.00-14.00 h. - Lunch 14.00-15.45 h. - Royal Jelly and Apilarnil Symposium (Moderator: Prof. Dr. Eberhardt Bengsch) 15.45-16.00 h. - Coffee break 16.00-19.00 h. - Clinical Apitherapy Symposium (First Part) (Moderator - Dr. med. Stefan Stangaciu) Hirofumi Naito (Japan) - A case of keratoakantoma treated with bee stings. 19.00-20.00 h. - Dinner 20.00-22.00 h. - Apitherapy Workshop · How to build and run an Apitherapy related Apiary. · Basic quality conditions for the production of apitherapy preparations based on honey, bee pollen, royal jelly, propolis and bee venom · Bee Venom and its Practical Uses. German, Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese Apipuncture Practical Experience · Propolis Preparations and Uses. Sunday, March 30-th., 2003 09.00-12.00 h. - Clinical Apitherapy Symposium (second part) (Moderator - Dr. med. Stefan Stangaciu) 12.00-12.45 h. - Round Table 12.45-13.00 h. - Official Closure of the Congress 13.15-16.00 h. - Lunch and Trip on Danube (on a specially rented tourist ship) + Visit to a local famous Apiary (Imkerei Prüfhof Kringel) (optional) 16.00-16.30 h. - Trip back to the Hotel Posters on Clinical Apitherapy (list to be made soon) Invited Speakers German Speakers: Prof. Dr. G. Vorwohl Prof. Dr. Eberhardt Bengsch Dr. (Biol.) Andreas Stocker Dr. (Pharm.) Joachim Exner Dr. Dr. habil. Bernhard Jessberger Dr. med. Ludwig Kirmeier Dr. (Biol.) Friedgard Schaper Dr. Dr. (Biol) Helmuth Horn Dr. (Biol) Klaus Wallner Hans, Irene and Thomas Schachtner Arno Bruder, Beekeeping Expert HP Joachim Polik HP Eleonore Peitz Hermann Forster Bernhard Jakel Pflegedienstleiter Andreas Pater International Authors/Speakers: Dr. Hirofumi Naito, Japan Prof. Siuwan Ip, Taiwan Assoc. Prof. Vassya Bankova Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, USA Dr. Ratna Thapa, Nepal Pedro Perez Gomez, Spanien Acup. Claudette Raynal, Frankreich a.s.o. Intensive Practical Diploma Apitherapy Course (March 31 - April 2-nd., 2003) First Day (March 31-St., 2003) A theoretical review of the whole Second German Bee Products and Apitherapy Congress and of the Apitherapy Internet Course (AIC) (see details in www.apitherapy.com). Second Day (April 1-St., 2003) Practical demonstrations on the use of raw bee products to make simple and complex apitherapy preparations. Learning to locate the Acupuncture Points and Meridians. Third Day (April 2-nd., 2003) Detailed discussions on the best Apitherapy Clinical Protocols to treat Human and Animal diseases, including through Apipuncture. Final test with 30 questions. The Diploma for each participant will be awarded by the German Apitherapy Society after successful passing through the Final Test. The place for each student will be immediately reserved after the payment will be made in the following Bank Account: ************************************ Deutsche Apitherapiebund Kapuzinerstr. 49, 94032 Passau. Phone: 0049-851-934.70.05. Fax: 0049-851-988.56.32. Bankverbindung: Sparkasse Passau, Swift Code: BYLA DE MM Account Sparkasse Passau BLZ 740 500 00 Account # : 240 290 510 ************************************ Please confirm your participation to the Course and your payment, as soon as possible, per E-mail, to our Course Coordinator: Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, President of the German Apitherapy Society E-mail: drstangaciu@apitherapy.com Websites: www.apitherapie.de + www.apitherapy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:15:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jose villa Subject: Tracheal Mite Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read with great interest the dialogue generated by Allen Dick's = posting of a chart that we had on the wall during the AHPA visit to the = USDA, ARS Bee lab in Baton Rouge. I want to present a few thoughts to = the group that has shown so much interest in the topic. Some of the = researchers with experience in tracheal mites (Bob Danka, Lilia de = Guzman, Medhat Nasr and myself) believe tracheal mites can be = significant problems, they can be easily resolved, but they are also = easily forgotten. First of all, the plot of breeder susceptibility was published in an = article in the American Bee Journal, April 2000, by Bob Danka and = myself. We really had no a priori idea of what we would find. In order = to get queen breeders to agree to participate in the test, we agreed to = keep their identities confidential. I agree that to some it might sound = counter to what a government agency should do, but USDA-ARS is not in = the business of regulation or certification, but rather research and = generation of information. We feel that this information should be a = warning to all queen producers, and should prompt customers to start = asking their suppliers what they do or don't know about the tracheal = mite susceptibility of their stocks. The commercial testing service = that we have assisted in getting established (Backwoods Apiaries in = Shelbyville, TN) is one way that breeders could get that information, = but unfortunately few have shown interest. We do not endorse, certify = or guarantee the results of this small business, but we have a = memorandum of understanding to assist him with information, quality = control, etc. This is not an agreement of exclusivity, so any one that = shows interest in learning the process, establishing a similar = commercial service, etc. will receive equal treatment. We can say the following about resistant stocks without breaking the = confidentiality agreement on the test mentioned above. Recent imports = from the Old World (British Buckfast, 1990, Yugoslavian bees, 1989) and = far-Eastern Russian (1997 and following years) are consistently very = resistant to tracheal mites. 'New World' stocks from programs that have = actively selected for tracheal mite resistance in the field or using = short tests also have resistance (Ontario Bee Breeders-Mehat Nasr's = program, Steve Park). We have no direct experience in the field with = queens from Ohio Queen Breeders, or from Sue Cobey's New World = Carniolan, or from Marla Spivak's Minnesota Hygienics, but given that = they actually look for tracheal mites (and cull colonies) they report = low winter levels in their stocks (see their web-pages). It is also important to remember that tracheal mite resistance is a = trait that is not exclusively possessed by any stock, race, bee color, = etc. We have seen very dark bees show high susceptibility, and very = yellow bees be highly resistant and viceversa. It appears as if the = main mechanism of resistance is improved self-grooming by young workers = of migrating female mites. Susceptible bees have the behavior, so with = some selection it can easily be improved. We have not narrowed it down = perfectly, but the trait seems to be governed by one or a few dominant = genes. With a very simple genetic model, assuming that homozygous = resistant, homozygous susceptible or heterozygote queens mate to varying = combinations of haploid resistant or susceptible drones, it is easy to = explain how a breeder that has a mixture of genes in his operation could = produce colonies that span the range from highly susceptible to highly = resistant. What is beautifully simple, or simply beautiful, about this = system is that with a little bit of information and selection the bad = genes can be culled out fairly quickly. Given the variability of climates and tracheal mite resistance levels in = stocks it is not surprising that beekeeper experience in the field is a = real patchwork. As Medhat says, tracheal mites are not as serious in = the South. First of all, the hot summers make the levels of infestation = drop in most susceptible colonies during that period. Second, even if = levels of mites in susceptible colonies increase during southern = winters, most colonies survive. What could be really incidious in the = South is that colonies could be experiencing a chronic loss of = performance year round. Consider Medhat's dramatic findings that = infested colonies cannot thermoregulate or use oxygen at the required = levels during really low winter temperatures. The same level of oxygen = consumption by clusters during cold spells, is also required for = individual forager flight, specially when loaded with nectar or pollen. = What happens to forager performance in colonies with 10, 20, 40, 80% = worker infestation? Sorry for the length of this post, but it summarizes some of the = thoughts a group of researchers have developed through time. This is = not an official document, just my personal opinions on the matter to a = group of people that have shown interest in something that I think = should not be ignored.=20 Jose Villa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:42:47 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: > Apparently there are different varieties of the Aethina tumida and the > ones in Aus come from a different region than those extant in the USA > and are visably different. I understand that some Australians are aware > of that. We weren't, at least on the beekeeper level. I think that everyone needs to cut the Australians some slack on this. Look how long it took actual entomologists to figure out that the "Varroa jackobsoni" causing hive losses was really a different type of varroa (Varroa destructor). Also, recall that the bulk of Australia's revenue for beekeeping comes from export. Even if someone suspected that they were looking at a different beetle, they would hesitate to "cause a scare" by being the first to claim that their beetles were not the same as small hive beetles found elsewhere. The often nonsensical rules of the "phytosanitary" and "biosanitary" controls imposed under the WTO agreements are hard on a country that has a "new and unique" pest. Any other country that does not have that same pest can limit or block imports from the area unlucky enough to have such a pest. Since the quarantine imposed in New South Wales was lifted in November 2002, this would mean that other countries would be well within their rights to assume that all of Australia was "infected". The fact that it is impossible for all of New South Wales, let alone the entire continent, to be infected at this time would be "irrelevant". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since the quarantine imposed in New > South Wales was lifted in November 2002, this would mean that > other countries would be well within their rights to assume that all > of Australia was "infected". The fact that it is impossible for all > of New South Wales, let alone the entire continent, to be infected at > this time would be "irrelevant". That is true, but the question remains, exactly what areas *are* infected, or may be infected? How can we know? Who can we trust? What distance ensures reaasonable safety from the pest? What is reasonable risk? > I think that everyone needs to cut the Australians some slack on this. That is true, and I think Canada is cutting Australia a lot of slack, after all AFAIK, Canada has an open border to Australian queens and packages at present. It is a matter of trust though, and if there is not or has not been full disclosure, that trust may be misplaced. Having said that, I understand that US and Canadian people are over in Aus, assessing the situation and, besides, some time will pass before any imports will take place, so there is time for change in policy. March is the earliest I expect that packages and queens will be coming this way. It is entirely possible that this entire matter is of no import, but what concerns me is that the first we heard of this is from a chance comment from someone who just happened to be in Australia, and just happened to see a sample of the beetle, and just happened to see the difference. Without full disclosure and public knowledge of the facts, how can the industry be expected to give intelligent input to a decison that may have significant impact on beekeepers. Perhaps we can trust this to the Powers That Be, but maybe not. IMO, the more people thinking about this, the better. Our CFIA recently allowed SHB infested comb into Canada. AFAIK this was without the knowledge of the bee industry as a whole, and the news took our national and provincial bee organisations by surprise. Although efforts were made subsequently to eliminate and contain the pest outbreak, we will not know the extent of the damage from this error in communication and judgement for some time. That episode does really make one wonder about our watchdogs, though. CFIA defends our borders against easy import of superior, mite and disease resistant bee stock from the USA at great cost to many in our industry and economy, and at the same time has casually allowed a serious pest into Canada to satisfy a small business that makes only a minor contribution to our industry and economy. What to think? Can they be trusted on this Australian situation? As a Canadian, I do not want my country to take chances on bringing a new pest to our continent that *might* be no real problem here, but could migrate south to be a pest to our good neighbours in the USA. I agree we have to be fair minded and even handed in these deliberations, but we also have to be careful who we trust, and make sure that all the cards are on the table. I hate surprises. allen www.honeybeeworld.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:41:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bees in Space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >but how could they store syrum in cells without gravity to hold it in before capping? Well, according to Sir Isaac Newton--A body at rest or in uniform motion will remain at rest or in uniform motion unless some external force is applied to it. If bees place liquid in cells and nothing is acting on the liquid, wouldn’t it simply remain where they put it? Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The Future is Already Here, BUT... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jose villa wrote: > I read with great interest the dialogue generated by Allen Dick's > posting of a chart that we had on the wall during the AHPA visit to > the USDA, ARS Bee lab in Baton Rouge. I want to present a few > thoughts to the group that has shown so much interest in the topic. I've heard it said that the future is already here, but it's not evenly distributed. That very insightful observation applies very much to our industry. Whether the future will be the happy one we see illustrated in the current results of the years of work with the Russian Primorsky stock, SMR and other selected stock, or the disaster that is currently unfolding in Florida with Monster Mites, is up to beekeepers. Things can go either way. I'd like to thank Jose and all the people at the Baton Rouge lab for their hospitality on our recent visit, and for clarifying my impressions in his post here on BEE-L. I think many of us are not completely aware of, or too easily forget, the great work that a large network of talented people are doing to assess and respond to the challenges that face the bee industry in North America and throughout the world. Opportunities like the one we had at Baton Rouge during the AHPA meeting help bring this home to those of us who are trying to understand where the future lies. Unfortunately many beekeepers are busy with their own problems, and are simply unaware what is happening across the continent. As such, many are part of the problem when they could easily become part of a solution. Many have been and will be taken unaware because they are oblivious to the dangers and just as unaware of available solutions. Good information is out there, but beekeepers are often too busy to investigate, and often many who try are confounded by contradictory claims and by confusing reports. It is often hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. To add to the confusion, proponents of bogus or half solutions are often very strident and general in their claims, while those who have real solutions are often quiet, cautious and quite specific about what they can offer. I'm particularly pleased that the people on the front lines of study, those in the USDA labs and their counterparts in Canada, are so approachable and willing to participate in one on one discussions with beekeepers. They attend the conventions and even local meetings and talk face to face with beekeepers, they visit beeyards when invited to see what is happening on the ground, and they publish in the magazines that beekeepers (should) read. Our best hope to ensure a prosperous future in beekeeeping is to attend these meetings, read the beekeeping magazines, and to get together in forums like this to compare ideas and experience. We will certainly never all agree, nor should we, but as long as we can maintain dialogue, we can draw on a vast fund of experience from many regions and methods of operation. We are very fortunate on BEE-L to have a finger on the pulse of the industry and a diversity of thought. > First of all, the plot of breeder susceptibility was published in an article in the American Bee Journal, April 2000, by Bob Danka and myself. I've often thought that I just happened on a great new revelation, only to see that it has been published a year or two back. Oh, well. Better later than never. Sometimes things just don't stick the first time, and (kick me) I think my subscription had lapsed at that particular time. It goes to show: BEE-L is a great source of ideas, but the ideas that are presented sketchily here on BEE-L are usually more fully fleshed out in Bee Culture, The American Bee Journal and other magazines, and often at some time in the past. These publications do our industry a great service, and I think we all should promote them to newcomers, and maybe we should make a point of reading them more thoroughly ourselves. I know I will. And it goes to show that our research people are really identifying and solving the problems, and publishing. The difficulty is in getting the solutions into the real world. As they say, that's where the rubber hits the road, and that is the challenge for the next two years. Will we see the solutions that have been developed for us get into common use, or will we see this opportunity slip away and again hear of massive (and unnecessary) bee losses? The answer lies in whether we can work together and agree on how to accomplish the task, and whether we can overcome the political divisions and inertia. The knowledge, and methods are at hand. Time will tell. allen www.honeybeeworld.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:26:14 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Pest transport, was Re: [BEE-L] Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting mail from Allen, Presumably time will let the knowledge (regarding Aussie. SHB) sought by beekeepers to come out. The little comment at the end - "I hate suprises". Now where is the suprise in pest translocation and bees. As long as corporal bee transportation takes place between areas that have pests into those areas that do not - problems in control will occur. And historically, transportation from areas near pest ridden areas but thought to be clear, again have allowed pests to be spread. As mentioned several days previously - Canada was again going to let in bees / queens from Aus. that were at least 14 miles from the nearest confirmed SHB area. This distance being considered as a suitable "cordon sanitaire". Presumably some individual knows better over what my instincts are telling me. Also - as to spreading of pests from place to place, I suggest this nearly always comes down to actions taken by beekeepers or individuals related to the industry / pastime. Rules are put in place (presumably with advice taken from individuals knowledgeable of apiculture), only to be broken by individuals allied to beekeeping - e.g.. Illegal shipments of material from U.S to Canada as highlighted earlier last year. No suprise Allen: - where there are pests, they will eventually get to where we don't want them and as stated, usually by our own doing! Stop international transfer of bees - or allow it to continue, with the inevitable consequences? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:31:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Making it Work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jose villa wrote: > ...The commercial testing service that we have assisted in getting > established (Backwoods Apiaries in Shelbyville, TN) is one way that > breeders could get that information, but unfortunately few have shown > interest. We do not endorse, certify or guarantee the results of > this small business, but we have a memorandum of understanding to > assist him with information, quality control, etc. This is not an > agreement of exclusivity, so any one that shows interest in learning > the process, establishing a similar commercial service, etc. will > receive equal treatment. At risk of stating the obvious, and further risk of making this a hobby horse, the work has been done and it is now up to us -- those who buy queens from US producers (Hawaii is a US state) -- to ensure that our suppliers use this service, or one that is comparable. It is an economic fact that suppliers have no incentive to make any improvements in stock beyond what their customers demand. Granted, many suppliers are professionals and as such strive for high standards, but if we consumers vaue the work that has been done to help ensure we receive the best, then we need to press our suppliers to *prove* that they are making the effort. Asking for reasonable assurances shouldn't annoy those who have our best interests at heart. Is it unreasonable to ask our suppliers to give us written assurances that they are monitoring and managing tracheal tolerance in their stock? I submit that it is not unreasonable at all. At the ABF convention, we were told how the large chains buying honey now demand documentation from the packers showing that aerobic bacteria levels are lower than a specific minimum along with other technical information to protect them, and to protect the end user. Smart packers comply quickly and enthusiastically, and then use their compliance as a tool to secure their relationships with suppliers and customers -- and to beat out competition. Large buyers can insist on standards because of their vast purchasing clout, but maybe we underestimate our power as consumers, and the influence that industry chatter can have. I think it is time that we ask queen producers to provide buyers with at least some sort of spec sheets, guaranteeing that their stock meets reasonable established benchmarks. This is not a new concept in many industries and I am sure that the best producers are prepared, and would be glad to do so today if asked. I am also sure that, in time, the rest will follow. Some may be unable to do so or refuse, but they will lose customers, and that seems fair enough to me; after all, unscrupulous or inattentive queen suppliers ruin their customers slowly over time. Maybe it is a little early to expect much, but in a year or two, if we start now, with a gentle pressure coming from all sides, we may see some producers realising that they can exploit these tests as a marketing tool to differentiate their product from those of producers who have not gone to the expense and trouble of getting with the program. I thought I'd try the idea out, so when I saw my supplier, I asked him straight out. He seemed pleased to be asked, and happily assured me that he has been proactive and began to use this TM testing service some time back. Of course he also indicated that there are some problems with getting everything up and running right since it is fairly new and imperfect. He also has been working on HYG testing, and that too has some quirks and limitations. That verbal assurance is enough for me at this point, although I expect to raise the bar a bit over time, and I also want to see this in writing, maybe with some numbers. Maybe those queen producers who make this effort for their customers can then expect to ask a slightly higher price for their queens or expect to be preferred suppliers. Maybe they can get a marketing advantage out of it. I sure think they will. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:03:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Jan 2003 to 17 Jan 2003 (#2003-18) In-Reply-To: <200301180500.h0I4jwoe021997@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/17/03 23:00, wrote: > how could they store syrum in cells without gravity to > hold it in before capping? > > Eugene Makovec Surface tension? Mike Stoops Lower Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said: > exactly what areas *are* infected, or may be infected? I think that it is safe to say that any effort to collect data and maintain detailed maps dwindled out when the quarantines ended. This error has also been made in the US multiple times. If cattle were dying due to invasive pests and diseases at the same rate as hives are dying, the reaction would be much more aggressive. Just like Britain's response to the 2002 foot and mouth outbreak. Martial law, in essence. > How can we know? We can't, so all anyone can do is to inspect imports from everywhere. > Who can we trust? "Trust" is a counter-productive concept that can lead only to distrust. We should operate independently of trust. Robust checks and balances are the only thing worthy of confidence. A person one "trusts" can be trusted to screw up now and again, so the trick is to design an approach that expects even the "most respected" to be fallible human beings. > What distance ensures reaasonable safety from the pest? The oceans are a good barrier. Checking whatever crosses the oceans is apparently left to each county where planes land and ships dock. Anything less is, uh, less. > What is reasonable risk? In the case of queens, "reasonable risk" would be removing the imported workers at point of entry, replacing them with local workers, and testing at least a statistically valid subset of the workers. In the case of packages, I'm not sure what scheme would pass muster as "statistically valid", but one has to expect that people who check shipments of bulk commodities know some approaches that would work. In the case of apiary bulk commodities, like honey, pollen, and wax, one can "treat" without fear of killing something. E-beam appears to be the current state of the art. > Without full disclosure and public knowledge of the facts, Are you saying that this was known, but not disclosed? That's a pretty serious allegation to make. I'd prefer to think that the first fellow who noticed was the one that you heard from. I'm also not convinced that a "different" species or subspecies of beetle makes much difference on a practical level. From what reports are available, the Austrailian small hive beetle is just as bad as (and no worse than) the one found in the US, Egypt, and South Africa. > how can the industry be expected to give intelligent input to a decison > that may have significant impact on beekeepers. >From what I've seen so far the "industry" is structurally incapable of intelligent thought itself. a) Most of those with the expertise to grasp the technical issues have masters who restrict their participation in "public debate". b) Multiple groups claim to "represent" beekeepers, but none have even a coherent position statement on the "imports/pests/diseases" issue. c) Worse yet, these multiple groups do not coordinate their efforts when they thrash about on one issue or another. This is not to say that individuals or groups are not capable of well-reasoned and insightful thinking on a subject, but the ultimate comedy of fuzzy thinking is that one could have listened to the same exact presentations from multiple people at both of the US "national meetings", held a thousand miles apart, but within days of each other. I'm not saying that the two groups should even consider merging, but think of the membership increases each would see if they simply held their meetings in the same city each year scheduled so as to not overlap. > Perhaps we can trust this to the Powers That Be, but maybe not. WHAT "powers that be"? Maybe Canada has an actual authority over such issues, but down here in the USofA, the "powers that be" are apparently powerless themselves. WTO rules sacrifice concepts like "biosecurity" for short-term profits for small groups of exporters, and limit its scope to not only what is "known", but what can be proven to be a "significant pest". The "powers that be", at least in the US, appear to feel honor bound to follow the path "least restrictive to trade" unless directed otherwise by elected officials. > CFIA defends our borders against easy import of superior, mite and disease > resistant bee stock from the USA at great cost to many in our industry and > economy, Which is the "critical" pest they fear? SHB or AHB? Can either survive an Alberta fall, let alone a winter? Where does actual science factor into the decsion-making process? > and at the same time has casually allowed a serious pest into Canada to > satisfy a small business that makes only a minor contribution to > our industry and economy. If controls are going to be more strictly applied against a "small business that makes only a minor contribution to our industry and economy", then beekeeping as a whole is not going to get any consideration from anyone. My point is that prohibiting imports of this or that from here or there based upon one specific pest or disease or another does nothing to work towards an actual solution. Only rigorous port of entry testing protects against both the "known" and the "unknown". When the subject is beetles and mites, the "unknowns" outnumber the "knowns". jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We should operate independently of trust. Robust checks and > balances are the only thing worthy of confidence. A person one > "trusts" can be trusted to screw up now and again, so the trick is > to design an approach that expects even the "most respected" to > be fallible human beings. True, but at some point everyone has to trust someone. I doubt that I can do *everything* myself I'm wondering if we can trust our own people -- who are supposed to be doing just what you suggest. . >> What is reasonable risk? > In the case of queens, "reasonable risk" would be removing the > imported workers at point of entry, replacing them with local > workers, and testing at least a statistically valid subset of the > workers. Now, I don't quite follow. We are talking about SHB. Do SHB, or their eggs, somehow ride on bees? > In the case of packages, I'm not sure what scheme would pass > muster as "statistically valid", but one has to expect that people > who check shipments of bulk commodities know some approaches > that would work. Apparently aduly SHB are quite comfortable in a cluster of bees and not all obvious to people looking at the cluster. We're talking about importing thousands of clusters of bees. >> Without full disclosure and public knowledge of the facts, > Are you saying that this was known, but not disclosed? > That's a pretty serious allegation to make. I'd prefer to think that > the first fellow who noticed was the one that you heard from. The response from Australians to the question came overnight. I don't know if Canadian and US people knew previously or not. I didn't and I've been listening (sorta). > I'm also not convinced that a "different" species or subspecies of > beetle makes much difference on a practical level. From what > reports are available, the Austrailian small hive beetle is just as > bad as (and no worse than) the one found in the US, Egypt, and > South Africa. Neither am I. Apparently (going by hearsay) the Aus version is killed by freezing. I wonder if importing more beetle stock would increase the viability of the beetle by increasing genetic diversity if they meet up somewhere. I presume the current beetles in the US must be quite inbred? Can we say, "Okay bring in a new beetle; it doesn't look too nasty"? We know they make a mess and complicate mangement in beekeeping. So far we don't know about other enterprises except, maybe, wax rendering. >> CFIA defends our borders against easy import of superior, mite and >> disease resistant bee stock from the USA at great cost to many in >> our industry and economy, > > Which is the "critical" pest they fear? SHB or AHB? Can either > survive an Alberta fall, let alone a winter? Where does actual > science factor into the decsion-making process? Why are you asking me? Or is that one of those there reeetorical questions I'd be fool to try to answer when they can't? Not convincingly, anyhow. Especially when thery are now setting up to bring in the beetle from Aus. > My point is that prohibiting imports of this or that from here or > there based upon one specific pest or disease or another does nothing > to work towards an actual solution. Only rigorous port of entry > testing protects against both the "known" and the "unknown". The only possible port of entry testing I know of in this instance would be destructive testing. > When the subject is beetles and mites, the "unknowns" outnumber the > "knowns". Amen. BTW, your name was mentioned most favourably at the ABF. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:00:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: mONSTER mITES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the ABF meeting, Laurence Cutts and Tom Rinderer mentioned 'Monster Mites'. Apparently, the varroa in Florida are now tolerant to fluvalinate, coumaphos and Amitraz. Some in the US have been pinning their hopes on Amitraz. Larry says that Amitraz might buy one more year, but mites that have experienced fluvalinate and coumaphos quickly adapt to Amitraz. It looks as if the race is run and chemicals have had their day. Thankfully, the use of chemicals has bought enough time to develop bee stock that seems to need very little assistance in surviving in the presence of tracheal and varroa mites. It is time for beekeepers to adopt that stock ASAP and to be sure to monitor levels. I attended a talk in Jeff Harris's lab and the assumption was that most beekeepers do not montor mites. I was shocked, but Jeff was right, it seems most people in the room did not know what a sticky board looked like or how to use it. His demo of the sugar shake was so quick and elegant that it is hard to imagine that anyone leaving the room would not adopt one or or the other -- preferably both -- methods immediately. The day of just adding strips and trusting fate are long over. The only beekeepers left standing in a few years will either be in very isolated areas, or using mite-tolerant stock and testing regularly for mite levels. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:27:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We were told at the ABF convention in K.C. that the FDA has placed honey on a three year *watch* list. One Kansas City producer has already been called and asked for a jar of his honey for testing. If your honey is in U.S. stores you could have F.D.A. testing done. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:17:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... the trait seems to be governed by > one or a few dominant genes. With a very simple genetic model, > assuming that homozygous resistant, homozygous susceptible or > heterozygote queens mate to varying combinations of haploid resistant > or susceptible drones... For those whose bee genetics are a bit rusty or non-existent, I recommend visiting http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm. The basis of bee breeding is described there in simple and understandable terms. http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/digital/2002/column40.htm offers an article by by Tom Sanford that provides further links on the subject. allen www.honeybeeworld.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Colour recognition/ eyesight I've had a great time reading the colour vision thread. The large amount of interest in bee vision is likely because humans rely so heavily on sight. Bees, I think, are far more concerned about 'smelling'. But, bee sight is very important to understand. Bees need vision for foraging, mating and finding home. I took some time today in the library to read a few recent(ish) journal items. Much of the detailed scientific work is highly technical and I sometimes found it difficult to interpret. Especially because insect physiology is well outside my area (autogenous biologics). I won't bore you with the nitty gritty. The good news is the significant findings are straightforward. Bee sight relies on a photon gathering and interpretation system using a compound eye. Each compound eye of workers consists of approximately 4500 facets, queens 3500 facets and drones a whopping 7500. Each facet embraces a very tiny field of view. Every individual facet is analogous to a retina, albeit very small. The main purpose is photon capture. The brain receives a nerve impulse from the receptor cells in the ommatidium after captured photons cause a chemical change when absorbed. Each ommatidium has nine receptor types biochemically specialized for 'colour'. Four are 'green' receptors, two are 'blue' receptors, two for 'UV" and one for polarized UV. Some investigators seem to disregard a specialized 'Polaroid' UV receptor and simply consider eight receptor types. The brain assembles, from the generated nerve impulses, the 'picture' that is bee sight. The bee seems to 'see' UV and all the colours we do except red (a bee's black). The prevalent conceptualization of the 'picture' the bee sees is a distorted mosaic. A notion very familiar to everyone on this list. I am not convinced the bee perceives a mosaic at all. Just what the bee 'perceives' is still little understood. The concept of mosaic vision is no doubt excellent for understanding the underlying biology of bee sight but it lacks completeness. We lack investigations that integrate static sight with kinematic sight. Detecting motion is very highly developed in bees. I think what bees 'perceive' as opposed to 'see' is based on a 'visual flow' rather than the all too human preference for static landscapes. Giurfa et al. (1999) found that bee sight shows a marked regionalization of colour detection that they think is a result of peripheral or central specializations within the compound eye. Bees detect colour presented directly in front of their eyes in visual angles greater than 15 degrees (chromatic system). At smaller view angles between 5 degrees and 15 degrees the bees switch to a colour-blind system (achromatic system) dependent on the abundant 'green' receptors. (Note: targets present smaller and smaller angular sizes the further away you get.) The achromatic and chromatic systems work together in sequence (Hempel de Ibarra et al., 2001). The two systems are 'tuned' to work together as visual targets change with respect to the size of the visual angle. The dual system means bees see solid colours better than colours within colours. Bees need a sharp contrast and a 'fixation' point to activate their colour discrimination at visual angles less than 15 degrees (Hempel de Ibarra et al., 2001). Bees are unable to detect an *isolated* coloured patch that subtends fields of less than 15 degrees without a fixation point and sharp contrast. Bees are colour-blind when they detect edges (Horridge 1999). Edge perception is engaged when the most abundant receptor types (green) detect a contrast. Because only one receptor type (green) is used, the edge detection is colour-blind (achromatic). Now, consider kinematic vision. A detectable moving target is a contrasting edge that moves across a visual field. I think this means kinematic sight is colour-blind because seeing the moving 'edge' need only use the green receptors and there is no sight fixation. This is likely the case at least for motion in the horizontal plane. The vertical plane appears to use green and blue receptors (Horridge, 2000). This leads to the oddest notion that bees may be colour blind in the horizontal but may have colour vision mostly in the vertical. While flying, it is the horizontal plane that is important in terms of 'heading' along a route. And yes, the bee at all times is aware of its position relative to the sun, likely using polarized UV. The vertical (up/down) plane becomes important when working blooms at the source plant where colour perception is put to best use. The achromatic and chromatic systems are separated neurologically. The 'wiring' is independent but the information is used sequentially. The dual system is an integration of a chromatic 'green and blue' processing that disregards contrasts and achromatic 'green' edge detecting system that disregards the *relative* location of edges but 'sees' contrast. The edge contrast detection is only green based in the horizontal but green or blue in the vertical (Horridge, 2000). Bees will remember the colour that was placed in a specific position. Coloured patterns and positions are 'seen' by combining photon flux from green and blue receptors. The luminosity is not important but the wavelength of the photon is. I'll speculate a bit and suggest bees in flight may establish a route memory based on the 'edges' that flow past its horizontal peripheral visual field. This is the heading space. There is evidence for this, most notably in the work of Dyer (1991) which appears to refute the 'cognitive map' idea from Gould (1986). Horridge (1999) showed that bees can learn edge cues but it is not likely they 'memorize' entire patterns. So I don't think bees hold entire 'cognitive maps' in their wee bee brains. They may remember the 'termophores' (coined here first (I think)! from the Greek terma = edge and aphoros = bearing) and their sequence but not the whole visual landscape en route. Perhaps these termophores (edge cues) form part of the learned route to nectar and pollen resources and back again to the hive relative to the sun. Other sensory information such as odour accretion on the bee's body en route; and data from propriomotic, barometric and hydrotropic organs likely are used, too, I bet. Perhaps the best 'bee-con' for a hive will reflect (or emit) UV, wiggle a little bit, have a solid human perceived colour (or be black (red) and white), be BIG, have a very obvious fixation point and lots of sequential termophores *Burma-Shave* style along the bee line. Scented candles, too? Hmmm. Now where did I put that NSERC grant application.....? Richard Goetze Dyer FC (1991) Bees acquire route-based memories but not cognitive maps in a familiar landscape. Animal Behavior 41:239 Giurfa M; Zaccardi G; Vorobyev M (1999) How bees detect coloured targets using different regions of their compound eyes. J Comp Physiol A 185: 591 Gould JL (1986) The locale map of honey bees: do insects have cognitive maps? Science 232:861 Hampel de Ibarra N; Giurfa M; Vorobyev M (2001) Detection of colour patterns by honeybees through chromatic and achromatic cues. J Comp Physiol A 187:215. Horridge GA (1999) Pattern discrimination by the honeybee (Apis mellifera) is colour blind for radial/tangential cues. J Comp Physiol A 184:413. Horridge GA (2000) Pattern Vision of the Honeybee (Apis mellifera) blue and green receptors in the discrimination of translocation. Neurobiology of Learning and Memory 74:1 The whale Put Jonah Down the hatch But coughed him up Because he scratched Burma-Shave ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:22:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees in Space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Dick Allen said... > If bees place liquid in cells and nothing is acting on the > liquid, wouldn't it simply remain where they put it? Take away gravity and surface tension becomes the major force...I reckon surface tension is a big player in retaining honey in cells, even in a gravity field, as some cells slope downwards. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:17:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: >Apparently aduly SHB are quite comfortable in a cluster of bees and >not >all obvious to people looking at the cluster. We're talking about >importing thousands of clusters of bees. When SHB (small hive beetle) first arrived in Florida I went to the source to see SHB for myself. In the office of the largest beekeeper in Florida I was shown a small observation hive and told to find the SHB. I could not find a single beetle. Then the OB hive was shaken and SHB was all over the place LAYING EGGS. In my opinion it would be impossible to ship the amount of packages out of an area of small hive beetle (AUS) without shipping SHB. They are simply too hard to spot in a three pound cluster of bees looking through a screen wire. Jim said: > Which is the "critical" pest they fear? SHB or AHB? Can either > survive an Alberta fall, let alone a winter? Where does actual > science factor into the decsion-making process? I have asked many researchers the above questions. We do not know for sure but all the researchers I asked seem to think both could survive in Canada. SHB because they can winter in the bee cluster. AHB because the bee which would arrive in Canada would have acclimated to colder weather by its movement through California and into Alberta (cold does not stop AHB in my opinion but other environmental factors seem to which is proven to me by the movement stopping in Texas). Not I or any of those researchers can say for sure but unlike the predictions of our most noted researchers AHB is moving north through California (current AHB map was presented by the Tucson lab ( Dr. Hoffman) at the ABF convention and the main new territory is in California) . The eastward movement in Texas and the northern movement out of Texas has all but stopped for a yet to be discovered reason (HYPOTHESIS exist and have been published in the ABJ). The prediction of the spread of AHB by the migratory beekeeper to all parts of the U.S. so far has only been a figment of several AHB researchers imagination. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight In-Reply-To: <200301190413.h0J3voom020565@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for this wonderfully informative posting, which I shall save for future reference. I am curious about one assertion however: > This is the heading space. There is evidence for this, most notably in the > work of Dyer (1991) which appears to refute the 'cognitive map' idea from > Gould (1986). Horridge (1999) showed that bees can learn edge > cues but it is not likely they 'memorize' entire patterns. > So I don't think bees hold entire 'cognitive maps' in their wee bee brains. > They may remember the > 'termophores' (coined here first (I think)! from the Greek terma > = edge and aphoros = bearing) and their sequence but not the whole visual > landscape en route. It seems to me that this conflicts with the observation that when a hive is moved at night and placed in a new location within normal foraging range of the original location, foragers often return to the original site rather than to the new site. I'd like to hear your comments about that. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:40:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight Folks, A while back, as I reported my bees flying in and out of chickenwire, our good friend Dick from Alaska posed me the following question: "Do they fly THROUGH the wire in both directions, or do they fly over the wire on the return trip?" Today, weather-thawing, I was able to watch closely how they go about flying through the wire: 1) More bees would fly through the wiremesh during in-coming flight to get at the corndust in the chicken feeder. 2) Although most of them fly up and away in their return trip, there are a few still flying through the mesh on their flight back. Thus, I was unable to deduct/reduce any meaningful generalization whatever. One thing I noticed was that as they approach the chicken fence, they *air-brake* just like an airliner, and then zigzag slightly around the mesh, next they fly through with ease. They do not bullet-through. Nothing gives me greater satisfaction than watching my girls come out at the end of winter, having just walked across the river styx, barefoot. Their servant, I offered them a smorgasboard of pollen and syrup. Cheers, Ordinary day, circa 2003, in the Republic of Oklahoma Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: al boehm Subject: winter moves ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I know the rules for summer moving of hives within a yard area but what about winter moving? Do the girls forget their orientation if cooped up for a couple of weeks, or am I courting disaster trying to move them a couple hundred feet at once. I'm in the southern edge of North Carolina . We have a very short cold spell now and have a window of about two more weeks before spring breaks. I would like to move several hives to a more accessable area of the farm with the rest of the hives. Thanks for any responses. Al Boehm Columbus N C PS - on the gmo subject there is a very fine article on a recent crop incineration that has not made national news. Read about it at http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,865021,00.html title: Alarm as GM pig vaccine taints US crops Strict new guidelines planned after contamination ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: winter moves ? Hey Al, Could you move them all, then put a couple frames of pollen, honey and one frame of brood in an empty hive? Then you could put the new hive in the place of the old hives, and maybe get a new hive out of the deal. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:47:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: winter moves ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Al & All, >Do the girls forget their orientation if cooped up for a couple of weeks, >or am I courting disaster trying to move them a couple hundred feet at >once. The rule is still the same. Cooped up a couple weeks might help but I suspect most will return to the old spot. A couple feet at a time or several miles and then return to new spot on farm is the rule. We had a 70 F. day a week ago in Missouri and the girls were back up trying to get into the honey house. Trying to enter the honey house was what they were trying to do two months ago when the temperature dropped. They had been cooped up for a couple months. >I would like to move several hives to a more accessable area of the farm with the rest of the hives. Wait until spring and reduce the hives into singles. screen entrance and fasten together and move a couple miles for a couple days. Rescreen and move back to the spot you want and put the MT second deep back on top. One person can handle the move and your bees are all down in the lower box ready to start spring. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: winter moves ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In just 20 minutes it deja vu all over again! This perennial topic (moving bees while closed up for winter) has been asked again and answered twice. One answer was move 'em (but leave a catcher hive), one answer was don't move 'em (follow the under 3 feet or over 3 miles rule of thumb or is it a myth?) I suppose if I wait a few minutes more someone will post the maybe yes, maybe no middle of the road. Truth is, there's tons of stuff on this topic in the archives which can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Allen wrote a particularly informative reply to the question. My advice? Move 'em and see what happens. Move 'em while they're couped up due to the weather. Place something directly in the bees flight path so they are surprised immediately that something has changed when they come out on the first warm day. Chances are they'll reorient to the new location. If they don't, then be ready to move 'em back or set up a catcher hive to catch the ones (if any) that do return to the old location. Follow my advice and you'll learn what your bees do in your location this time. Any your results may vary the next time. But you'll learn from the experience and perhaps discover that the bees don't always do things by the book. Aaron Morris - thinking bees CAN read, but the'll see red as black and the pages will look funny! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Colour recognition/ eyesight A while ago, J B Free (1958) experimented with moving groups of hives to watch how the foragers coped. He found that when one hive was moved only about 15 m away to a new location, almost all the foragers returned to the old location. (He made sure that several hives were left behind at the old site.) The defecting bees tried to join the hives that were left behind. When he removed all the hives from the old location almost all of the foragers returned to the new location. He seemed to show that the moved bees knew their origins and somehow preferred the old location but when given no choice they eventually accepted the new location. I think most beekeepers (and beewatchers) will agree that when bees leave natal colonies as a reproductive swarm, they tend to establish the new hive within the foraging area they know. The fascinating thing is the foragers rapidly learn to find their new home despite the fact that the old colony is relatively near-by. Robinson and Dyer (1993) determined that this reorientation after colony fission is mediated by the swarming experience. The rapid reorientation depends on 'something' that happens during the complex interaction of the swarming bees. The implication is that without the swarming experience, the bees don't reorient very well. They also found that if you take away the new hive, the foragers return to the old hive. This means that the bees retain the ability to find the old hive even after the swarming experience. It also means that somehow the bees 'suppress' or 'disregard' navigational cues pointing the way home to the old hive when they 'know' a new one is waiting for their return. When hives are moved at night without the swarming experience, I would expect returning foragers to home-in on the old hive location. This makes sense as long as the moved hive is within the known foraging area. The bees know where they are in the foraging area. When they leave the hive moved during the night, they likely 'decide' that they are on a foraging trip. When ready, they head for home as they remember it. Without the swarming experience, they don't seem to have the sense that home moved. Some other work by Dyer (1993) suggests that bees don't use the hive as a pivot point to draw navigational vectors. He speculates that bees learn how to find feeding sites independently of the hive location; and, finding their way home is independent of feeding sites. In other words, the bees don't carry a 'cognitive map' like humans do. We realize space and time form complete landscapes. We carry *whole* landscapes in our minds. Bees may separate the 'where the food is' from 'where home is' but use the same navigational techniques to find and remember both. Richard Goetze Dyer FC (1993) How bees find familiar feeding sites after changing nesting sites with a swarm. Anim. Behav. 46:813 Free, J B (1958) The ability of worker honeybees (Apis mellifera) to learn a change in the location of their hives. Animal Behaviour. 6:219 Robindon GE; Dyer FC (1993) Plasticity of spacial memory in the honey bees reorientation following colony fission. Anim. Behav. 46:311 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight quote: I'll speculate a bit and suggest bees in flight may establish a route memory based on the 'edges' that flow past its horizontal peripheral visual field. ... Horridge (1999) showed that bees can learn edge cues but it is not likely they 'memorize' entire patterns. So I don't think bees hold entire 'cognitive maps' in their wee bee brains. They may remember the 'termophores' ... and their sequence but not the whole visual landscape en route. In a way, you are describing the very nature of a map. Just as a road map is a schematic for the actual: it shows only the edges, using colored lines to represent roads, giving no real info like traffic conditions, road conditions, hills, etc) and may eliminate peripheral info like sidestreets, buildings, etc. Significant landmarks may be included like lakes, rivers, monuments, etc. Or a topo map: it represents altitude by a system of lines -- again, the edges of reality. Even our mental pictures are very superficial and include just the info we need to make our way, unless we happen to be more observant, noting other features that "interest" us. Noting non- essential features is probably a human trait and one that is taught, partially by watching movies our whole life -- developing this interest in the aesthetic. I doubt that any non-human creature pays much attention to non-functional apsects of the environmemt. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:54:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, Someone, I recall, had raised a concern a while back that one of the grossly neglected areas in hobby-beekeeping was the lack of *spring priming* with pollen supplement and light syrup. In the absence of real pollen, I am now trying to try brewer’s yeast for my forty colonies, having tried the premix sold by a bee supplier, which worked OK. However, I could not locate a good place to buy brewer’s yeast *in bulk.* Lots of different stores do sell brewer’s yeast but all in small bottles for many domestic use. How do you commercial beekeepers go about getting it in bulk? The archive did not help me much, especially for the area where I live. Was it any better/worse than the typical soy flour/dry skim milk/brewer's yeast mix? The premixed formula from a bee supplier worked all right, but I feel I am paying too much for the packing. Also, since I did not have any controlled group experiment, I could not tell the efficacy of feeding pollen supplement—-although I tend to agree with its alleged outcome. In the meantime, I am feeding the leftover premix from last year, hoping that it still retains its nutrients, knowing that bees will get anything mixed with enough sugar. from the People's Republic of Oklahoma Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: source of brewer's yeast Yoon asked where to get the stuff? The guys that I have known that use it get it from beer breweries. There seems to be at least one in every town, and my bet is you have 2-3 within 50 miles. That said, there are different types. There is a lot of hoopla (in Bee-L archives) about the differences, but I am told by serious users that it comes down to the drying technique. Something about drying on a cylinder or by some other method. My suggestion, Yoon, is call any one of the large commercial beekeepers in California or, if you don't know any, call any California Queen Breeder. Ask him or her just what kind of brewers yeast he or she uses...not brand name, how it is prepared. If all else fails, contact me privately and I will give you a source to call. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? OK, I did locate animal feed called *Yeast-Culture* at $14.25 at a local feedlot. They say *Yeast-Culture* is different than Brewer's Yeast, however. Do you folks have any other suggestion? Still looking. . . . Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:08:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: @listserv.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > They say *Yeast-Culture* is different than Brewer's Yeast, > however. Do you folks have any other suggestion? Again, a perennial question. I haven't searched the archives, but I know Allen researched this one, with pointers from Andy Nachbar (that's how perennial is this topic)! Surf to: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/misc/pollen/pollensup.htm For the record, I mean no offense when I use the term "perennial topic". Discussing a topic that has been covered before may bring out new developements or ideas that weren't covered previously. Cheers! Aaron Morris - thinking there's a gold mine in them thar archives! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. wrote: > OK, I did locate animal feed called *Yeast-Culture* at $14.25 at a > local feedlot. They say *Yeast-Culture* is different than Brewer's > Yeast, however. Do you folks have any other suggestion? For small operators, my best recommendation -- frankly, since cost is not likely the biggest concern -- is to use BeePro(r). BeePro is available at any bee supply store and is about as good a bee diet as can currently get. Big operators use yeast, etc. mainly because they can cut the cost in half, not because they necessarily get better results. If you really want to mix your own, I'd advise you to read the archives very carefully or you will most likely go wrong. As you have already guessed, just getting some 'yeast' and offering it to the bees will not do the trick. I have some info on this on my website as well, but I'm not sure where. Visit http://www.honeybeeworld.com , if you like, and select 'search'. Download the Google searchbar if you don't already have it and search the site for 'yeast' and or 'brewer' or use the site search. FWIW, Dr. Gordon Wardell at the Tucson lab has been working on a liquid protein diet with added features that is now in testing. Maybe in a few years we will have something better than BeePro, but for now, BeePro rules. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary More than you wanted to know ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:28:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: source of brewer's yeast Yoon, Try Allen's Diary, (Allen Dick) at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/misc/pollen/pollensupprint.htm or http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/default.htm. There is a search function for the diary that works great. It also has info on both pollen substitute and pollen supplement, plus a whole lot of other informative info. There are also some post on the list that Allen's diary will take you to. The first link above gives the address for an outfit in Stockton, CA. Regards, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, You can make your own. All you need is a yeast packet (from a local home-brew supply), some powdered malt (corn sugar, cane sugar or fruit juice will also work), a gallon jug, and an air lock (to prevent wild yeasts from invading). Mix the malt into a pot of hot water, bring to a boil, and let cool to around 80 deg F. "Pitch" the yeast into the malt, stir in with a sterilized spoon, and pour into your sterilized gallon jug. Give it a little shake to aerate, and place the air lock on (with boiled water in it). Make sure you leave some head space in the jug(s) to allow for fermentation, and in about two weeks you'll have a sizeable amount of yeast paste at the bottom. It may be easier to use a two gallon plastic pail (food grade) with lid to make it easier to extract the yeast paste at the bottom. Just punch a hole in the plastic lid for the air lock. You can keep increasing your supply of yeast by pouring off the liquid (which is now bland beer), and adding fresh boiled/cooled malt (otherwise known as wort). Cheers, Todd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humdinger" To: Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:54 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Sources for Brewer's Yeast? > Folks, > > Someone, I recall, had raised a concern a while back that one of the > grossly neglected areas in hobby-beekeeping was the lack of *spring > priming* with pollen supplement and light syrup. In the absence of real > pollen, I am now trying to try brewer's yeast for my forty colonies, > having tried the premix sold by a bee supplier, which worked OK. However, > I could not locate a good place to buy brewer's yeast *in bulk.* Lots of > different stores do sell brewer's yeast but all in small bottles for many > domestic use. > > How do you commercial beekeepers go about getting it in bulk? The archive > did not help me much, especially for the area where I live. Was it any > better/worse than the typical soy flour/dry skim milk/brewer's yeast mix? > The premixed formula from a bee supplier worked all right, but I feel I am > paying too much for the packing. Also, since I did not have any > controlled group experiment, I could not tell the efficacy of feeding > pollen supplement--although I tend to agree with its alleged outcome. > > In the meantime, I am feeding the leftover premix from last year, hoping > that it still retains its nutrients, knowing that bees will get anything > mixed with enough sugar. > > > from the People's Republic of Oklahoma > > Yoon > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:34:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Yoon, If you have any beer breweries nearby they often sell food grade brewers yeast as a by product. I got mine from Coors Brewing: GTC 14452 W 44th Ave. Golden, Co 80403 1-800-522-4680 That's been a couple of years ago so I'm sure the price has changed and there's bound to be someone closer to you than Coors. Mann Lake sells a powdered product called Bee Pro which the bees will work when pollen is scarce. It was about the same price as the food grade brewers yeast in bulk but already had the sugar, etc. in it. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:44:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Yoon, >They say *Yeast-Culture* is different than Brewer's Yeast, however. Do you folks have any other >suggestion? Usually the by products of brewing that are sold to the feedlots contain lots of debris other than the yeast and the product is very coarse. Sometimes other ingrediants are added by the feed folks for their livestock, I'm not sure what happens to it when it's mixed with sugar syrup and stirred. The food grade brewers yeast is very powdery, much finer than ground flour. A respirator would be a good to use when mixing a large quantity of the stuff in dry form. It is a by product which requires filtering and drying and not just a waste product like the animal feed stuff. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:29:39 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andy McIntosh Subject: Mite fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Have misplaced my varroa book and was hoping someone could tell me if 50 mites over 24 hours onto the full floor under a mesh floor is a high number or a low number? It is equiv of 1 brood box in strength - I have one really untidy office to demolish - I know the book is here somewhere...... Thanks for any help Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Colour recognition/ eyesight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “A Scanning Electron Microscope Atlas of the Honey Bee” by Erickson, Carlson, and Garment shows some up-close images of honey bee eyes and interfacetal hairs that are part of the eye itself. The sensory hairs are reportedly used for perceiving airflow. Mark Winston writes in his “Biology of the Honey Bee” when the hairs are removed with a tiny scalpel, workers lose the ability to find their way to accustomed feeding sites under windy conditions, presumably because they can no longer compensate for wind speed during flight. Erickson’s book is out of print. Some copies are still available through used book sellers on the internet. Also good news for internet surfers is the fact that the USDA has the entire book posted for viewing on its Carl Hayden Bee Research Center web site. These are the direct links to images of bee eyes up close. http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beebook/queen/1.4.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beebook/worker/2.2.html http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beebook/drones/3.2.html Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:13:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: Sources for Brewer's Yeast? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen, Todd, Lloyd, Chuck, and the gang: Allen, the very stuff I am using now is, in fact, *Bee Pro*—-having had arrived at the same conclusion last year as you astutely observe what is best for a small operator like me. However, due to its seeming secrecy surrounding its ingredients and due to the Terra-Pro plastic package it came in, accidentally or not, I have this sneaky suspicion that it just MIGHT contain trace of TM, a reason why I did not named the product in the first place. I have not proven this suspicion, of course. I maybe am paranoid or getting old or both. True, I am not so terribly concerned with the expense; nevertheless, I feel I am paying too much for the dead weight of *soy flour,* which, I would think, one should be able to buy a whole lot cheaper in the vicinity. As many of us have already noted, Bee Pro works well, indeed. This year, encouraged my bees in the chicken feeder, foraging on corn- dust, I am going to open-feed pollen supplement at my home apiary (I have my bees in three separate locations). What is ironic is that I do have real pollen [mostly rag-weed] that I had collected and frozen last year, about three and half quarts in all, for my homeopathic allergy experiment this fall. We do have scarce dandelions popping up, but it will be another two months when we will have real pollen. In the meantime, the time has come here in Oklahoma to prime my girls, which I had started at the onset of the New Year. This winter Oklahoma weather has been rather mild driven by El Nino yoyo so much so that I had to feed those light colonies. Todd, speaking of making the stuff. A few days ago, a colleague of mine gave me a home-brewed wine, not quite the Oklahoma Moon Shine, but something close enough for government work that even as I type this I am cooking my own with the following ingredients: eight cans of grape juice, ten pounds of sugar, two squares of brewer’s yeast, water to fill the bucket near to the top, and a prayer—-let it set for two months, she advises me. By the time the *wine* is done, I hope red bud and others would start to bomb. Thank you for your insights and suggestions: we are a happy bunch. [disclaimer: I am not a wino but a health nut who runs six miles on MWF and weight-trains on T, Th, and Sundays. But I do drink a glass of wine to wash down my dinner, especially when I cannot run due to inclement weather] a feral bee in the outback of Oklahoma, Yoon [rhymes with June] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: pav@badassbees.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pav Organization: Bad Ass Bees Subject: Re: Pest transport, was Re: [BEE-L] Newsflash from Kansas City Comments: To: "pdillon@club-internet.fr" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folk At 18/01/03 22:26:00, Peter wrote: >...(regarding Aussie. SHB)... >As long as corporal bee transportation takes place... >problems in control will occur... >...as to spreading of pests from place to place, I suggest >this nearly always comes down to actions taken by >beekeepers or individuals related to the industry / pastime. >... >Stop international transfer of bees - or allow it to continue, >with the inevitable consequences? With regard to spread of small hive beetles it seems many folk are overlooking that there is another vector, not bee-related at all, and to my mind is the more likely way that the beastie got into Oz, which has essentially no bee-imports (and disregarding the nasty possibility of deliberate sabotage). Small hive beetles are well documented to often spend time on fruit. Here in NZ we are too often finding north american spiders on imported grapes - there is no doubt that live bugs can come in that way. While we're concentrating on restricting bee movements, we could well be blindsided by a shipment of Aussie mangos (and currently our National Beekeeper's Association is too busy shooting itself in both feet with a machinegun to really be effective at lobbying government to increase surveillance in this direction following Australia's nasty surprise). A couple of web sites that list some of the fruit involved: "Eischen et al. (1999) demonstrated that SHB could feed, apparently develop normally and complete all life-cycle stages on fruit such as avocado, rockmelon and grapefruit. They speculated that adult SHB prefer and seek out honey bee colonies, but when this food source is scarce they will feed and complete their life cycle development on certain fruit. Eischen et al indicated that SHB also fed on bananas, pineapple, grapes and mango. Movement of certain types of fruit should be considered as a possible method of spreading SHB." "they have been reported to be capable of developing on fruit such as avocado, banana cantaloupe, grape, grapefruit, mango, orange, papaya, pineapple, and strawberry [9] and other bee species such as bumble bees [37]." As for north americans worrying about getting nasties from Oz or NZ - relax, its a strawman of those seeking to create artificial trade barriers. Both of these countries have less resident pests than north america (Oz was merely catching up one with SHB), both take biosecurity very seriously, are bordered by oceans, and have far lower trade volumes than north america - you should worry more about where those bananas came from, next time you're at the supermarket. -Pav, not a disciple of globalism. _____________________________________________ (\ Pav pav@badassbees.com {|||8- Ahaura, New Zealand (/ For over 200 beekeeping pictures and movies... and the truth about the kiwi, visit: http://badassbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:44:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: recipies and brewers yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What recipie have you found to be the most acceptable to the bees? What do they not like? At what point do you offer it and is it left out or only put out in good weather? If you "could" add or subtract something what would it be? What might be added to make it more attractive to the bees? Its clear they dont appreciate it and use it only as a last resort. Thank all who offer their insights and experience! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:24:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: How has the bitter cold affected your bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Northeast we have not had warm weather since mid December. Does anyone know how the cold has affected their bees? I can not even reach my bees without wading in snow above my knees. I should remain stoic and wait for a warm spell I suppose. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:54:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Vaughn Subject: feeding bees hello everyone. i have been getting buckets from the bakery that has had cake iceing in them. i have been washing them out real good but got to wondering if i could start feeding it to my bees. i have 10 hives. some of the buckets have quite a bit of iceing in them, the iceing comes in every color in the rainbow. i have not given any to them yet for fear it might harm them. would like ya'll ideas on feeding it to them. thank you. mike. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: fumigation for EFB In-Reply-To: <001201c2c0bd$bedef570$64b85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There has been extensive discussion recently about various wavelengths of radiation and the use of them for the sterilization of AFB. Paenibacillus larvae is distinctive in the spore's resistance to temperature and other methods. The bacteria responsible for EFB, however, mellisococcus pluton, is not spore forming. Previously (three times in fact), I have queried this list about sterilization / destruction of EFB contaminated equipment, and the length of time that the bacteria remains viable. While I have much appreciated all the comments and advice about how the disease is dealt with in various parts of the world, no one ever provided a longevity reference until a private email yesterday pointed me to an url. In an agnote from a veterinary officer (K. de Witte) of the Northern Territory of Australia on EFB (which does not occur there yet, apparently) the time of three years is given for viability of the bacteria. There is no reference. I wonder if this is affected by freezing (which stored equipment in Canada undergoes). Of special interest to me, was mention that glacial acetic acid fumigation for nosema would also control EFB (again, no reference). Would anyone have more information, or first hand experience with this? It does seem reasonable to me that a non spore forming bacteria should be easier to eliminate than AFB. However, in some places EFB contaminated comb is destroyed similarly to AFB, and some commercial beekeepers have mentioned how quick it can spread in an operation, and I concur. The agnote url is : http://www.nt.gov.au/dbird/dpif/pubcat/agnotes/animaldiseases/576.pdf Also, I would like to know if anyone has tried a method of fumigating an entire storage building or area with glacial acetic acid (for either EFB or nosema)? I have tractor trailer van bodies over 40 feet long filled with supers, and it would seem to me that since they are fairly airtight when the doors are sealed (and the doors could be taped) that this should be possible. I have an old hair dryer (the kind that used to be connected to a bag that a person stuck on their head) that has a small fan and a heater. Years ago I used it connected to an empty box under a super stack to warm comb for extracting. I am thinking maybe it could be connected to long runs of plastic drain pipe with small holes drilled in it and the warm air passed through or over a container of glacial acetic acid and then through the pipe placed over the stacks of supers in a trailer. However, I know very little about this chemical except that the fumes are heavier than air and tend to fall, and the fumes are quite toxic. I do not know what temperature would be best to do this at, whether the air should be heated or not, and passed over the acid or bubbled through it, or even if it would work. But most of all, I would like some confirmation of whether this is effective against EFB as well as nosema. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:48:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: feeding bees leftover icing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Last fall, I was decorating my son's birthday cake and had a lot of left-over icing. Rather than throw it away, I asked the same question about whether the bees would/could eat it. After all, the main ingredients are vegetable shortening (recommended in many of the recipes for tracheal mite patties) and confectioners sugar (used for feeding). I have one hive in my backyard, so I squeezed a generous portion (about two pounds worth) in fat strips around on the inner cover and put the top back on. This would have been mid to late September in northeast Ohio. Free-standing water was accessible. Last year was a warm fall, so every once in a while I peeked under the cover to see what they were doing. The bees found it quickly enough and spent some time nosing around. There was even some evidence that they started eating it. (Pock marks in the strips of icing.) However, after several months on the hive most of the icing was still there. The pock marks never appeared to get much deeper than they were after the first two weeks. In late fall (just before Thanksgiving if I remember correctly), we had a very warm day so I took the inner cover off and washed it clean. The bees never showed an adverse reaction that I could see, but they didn't seem to like it as feed either. Caveat 1: This fall I fed sugar syrup through a hive-top feeder. The bees took in very little. The syrup finally went bad in the feeder so I took it off. One potential conclusion is that my bees are turning up their noses at all fall feed. Fall flowers are plentiful in my immediate area. They might react differently if I'd done the icing experiment some other time of year. Caveat 2: I make my own icing so I knew all the ingredients and could make a reasonable bet on safety. Icing from a bakery might have preservatives or flavorings that could change the result. I also did my test with the left-over white icing - no colorings. Mike Rossander ______________________________________________________________________ This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini/Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pest transport, was Re: [BEE-L] Newsflash from Kansas City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pav said: > our National Beekeeper's Association is too busy shooting itself in both feet with > a machinegun to really be effective at lobbying government to increase surveillance > in this direction following Australia's nasty surprise Yes, NZ should ratchet up their scrutiny of imports. There are a few representatives in your government who have advocated inspecting a higher percentage of multi-mode shipping containers, which would be a very good move. > As for north americans worrying about getting nasties from Oz or NZ - relax, its a strawman > of those seeking to create artificial trade barriers. How is it OK for New Zealanders to be concerned about this, but not North Americans? I'd sure like to understand how/why this self-contradictory stance exists in the minds of otherwise rational people. > Both of these countries have less resident pests than north america I think it would be more accurate to say that both countries are AWARE OF less pests and diseases, or alternatively, ADMIT TO HAVING less pests and diseases. It must also be noted that both countries' smug attitudes have been harmful to their beekeepers. New Zealand's MAF estimates that their varroa infestation existed for some number of years, and clearly was being spread within NZ by queen producers before it was first detected. Australia estimates that the infestation of their species or subspecies of SHB existed for some number of years before it was detected. The lesson is that one will never find what one does not look for. So what's the NEXT pest or disease that goes undetected for years? Tropilaelaps clareae? I wouldn't wish that beastie on anyone. > both [NZ and Australia] take biosecurity very seriously, Which underlines why North American countries need to start doing so. If "very serious" biosecurity efforts can't keep large obvious external pests like varroa and SHB from getting in and taking over, think of how many pests can get in when there are minimal or no point-of-entry inspections at all, which is the current proposal for US imports. > are bordered by oceans, The oceans clearly prevent "natural" spread of diseases and pests, but they are no barrier to trade transport, as both NZ and Australia have learned the hard way. > and have far lower trade volumes than north america Total volume is irrelevant. The key factor is the number of shipments from countries known to harbor pests and diseases of concern. Not to slander an entire region, but there should be grave concern about shipments of anything from Asian countries, since this is where the significant pests and diseases tend to be. These countries trade often with both NZ and Australia. As an update on the consideration of "imports of queens, packages, pollen, wax, and 'honey for bee feed' from New Zealand and Australia", right now we are waiting to see if the bureaucrats of the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service can be convinced to modify their proposal by the strongly-worded objections from the actual scientists of the USDA Agricultural Research Service. Details are at: http://www/beeculture.com/imports Perhaps USDA APHIS will be swayed by USDA ARS to admit that the word "Inspection" is in their name for a reason. Perhaps "congressional intervention" will be required. Either way, it is clear that the USDA does not even have an internal consensus, which means that the lack of a port-of-entry inspection protocol may kill both proposals. If the handful of exporting queen producers in New Zealand and Australia really want to sell products to the US, they would be well-advised to openly advocate point-of-entry inspections as a part of the protocol. Anything less just won't work, and destroys their credibility. A really smart move would be for NZ to start offering courses on "how to inspect imports" to other countries. This would generate much more revenue than a few queens, assuming that they gain the same "market share" in the US as they have in Canada (tiny, from what data Canada has provided). > you should worry more about where those bananas came from, > next time you're at the supermarket. I'm much more worried about Kiwi Fruits. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:49:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: recipies and brewers yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, >What recipie have you found to be the most acceptable to the bees? For patties I have found that an equal volumes of Bee Pro, brewers yeast and sugar with about 10% natural pollen and a tablespoon of vitamin C per 5 gallons of mix works well. For the my few hives the following amounts work well: 2 cups pollen 8 cups hot water - mix the water and pollen to breakup the pollen pellets 1 tbls vitamin C - stir into the solution 7 cups sugar 2 cups honey 7 cups brewers yeast 7 cups Bee Pro Add enough additional water and mix to make a cake mix like mixture. Let set overnight and then stir and place on wax paper. The mixture should be as wet as possible without freely flowing. Squish to the right height and place in a 5 gallon bucket. Any extra can be kept in the freezer and thawed when needed. The bees will consume this mixture if placed immediately above the broodnest even when abundant natural pollen is available. I think the key factors are the sugar and moisture content. If it dries out, the bees will stop working it. I don't claim this is the optimum mixture. I do know that the bees will reject the Bee Pro and syrup patty when natural pollen is available. They will work longer on the Bee Pro - brewers yeast syrup patty. A little honey, pollen and vit C seems to make the difference. If you try it let me know how it works for you. Maybe I've just got a poor natural pollen location. :>) Dennis Murrell Eye of toad, wing of bat.....maybe that will make bees fat. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:38:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: degree-days and honeybees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My day job is a teacher of horticulture and I routinely discuss monitoring insect development using calculations of degree-days (an insect pest will develop a measureable amount based on the daily air temperature). Is it possible or has it been tested to monitor honeybee colony activity, i.e. when the queen begins late winter egg laying, using temperature readings alone?? How much is daylength involved in something like that? What are the factors that trigger the queen to start laying? Are there other stages of bee or colony development that may be of interest to determine if their occurrence can be predicted using these degree-day temperature models? Curious, Mark Hubbard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:24:33 +0100 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jan Tempelman Subject: Re: Mite fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from the pages: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html The number of mites in a hive (during brood season) can be found by counting them on the bottom sheet in one day and multiplying that by 50. If there are no more than 10 mites a day, it is not likely that the mites do measurable harm. Andy McIntosh wrote: > 50 mite over 24 hours regards, jant -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jan Jan Tempelman Annie Romein-Verschoorpad 2-4 NL 4103 VE Culemborg tel.:0345-524433 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: March 22 seminar in Albany NY, new details MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Albany, NY: An all-day presentation of top-notch speakers will take place on the State University of New York (SUNY) Albany campus. The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association will host a spring seminar on March 22, 2003, 9:00 - 3:00. Speakers: Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Dr. John Skinner, Dr. James E. Tew, and Kirk Webster. Topics will include spring management; Varroa controls, including Integrated Pest Management and breeding for resistance; management in northern climates; pollination insights and more. Register by March 8. $25 per person or $40 per couple, not including lunch. After March 8, add $10 late fee for each person. A block of discounted rooms will be reserved at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across the street. When people call to reserve rooms, they should call by March 7 and mention the "beekeeping seminar" to get the discount. The rooms are available for March 21 and/or March 22. Marriott Fairfield 518-435-1800, #1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 12206 $74 + tax = $80 for non-smoking room with 2 queen size beds. Hotel has a pool, whirlpool, and complimentary Continental breakfast. The cost for the seminar will be $25 per person or $40 for couples. This includes a morning coffee/snack break. At lunch, attendees will be able to buy their lunches nearby. If registering after March 8, a $10 late charge will be added to each person’s fee. A raffle or silent auction of items donated by dealers will take place as well. Spring into Beekeeping! Thank you for your interest, Anne Frey, SABA President AnneF@capital.net (518) 895-8744 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:13:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pest transport, was Re: [BEE-L] Newsflash from Kansas City Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > MAF estimates that their varroa infestation existed for some number > of years, and clearly was being spread within NZ by queen producers > before it was first detected. Australia estimates that the > infestation of their species or subspecies of SHB existed for some > number of years before it was detected. The lesson is that one will > never find what one does not look for. In Alberta, varroa was detected in NZ package bees the year before (or was it two years) prior to the NZ announcement that they found mites in NZ. The gov't official who found it here doubted his own findings. He thought that the mites he found had somehow been on his drop board screens. He repeated the test, but was unable to find more mites on the second pass, so he had no choice but accept the NZ assurances that they were vigilant and would know if they had varroa. As I reported here on May 10th, 2000, a researcher working for us found evidence of established varroa in hives that had been installed from *Australian* packages only one month before (April 9th) in a yard which was made up from packages only, and isolated from our other yards by several miles. See http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Diary/2000/diary050900.htm and http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0005B&L=bee-l&P=R2403 His observation was that varroa had been raised in recently emerged brood cells. Since only a month had passed since package installation, and the bees were installed on foundation -- and the weather was mostly cool for the first week -- what are the odds that enough mites could have migrated locally be discovered by eye in an inspection? An Apistan(r) drop test on several hives turned up several mites which were shown on my website. Interestingly enough, my post to BEE-L is the first and the last in its thread.. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: @listserv.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brother Aaron: I am not offended at all, but please check the recipe in the website you provided with the one in, for instance, the *Bee Bible* and figure why the latter insists the three ingredients [brewer’s yeast, expeller soy, skimmed milk] while the former, only two [minus skimmed milk]; in fact, some members on this list would insists on using just one [yeast]. Wish everything were black and white, and glad it isn’t. Knowing this incongruent recipe and diverse practice, I just wanted to know more about the *source* in bulk other than the premix sold by two of the dominant wholesalers in beekeeping. That’s all. Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: What, no milk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... why the latter insists the three ingredients [brewer's yeast, > expeller soy, skimmed milk] while the former, only two [minus skimmed > milk]; in fact, some members on this list would insists on using just > one [yeast]. There is some confusion about whether the lactic acid in skim milk is toxic to bees or not. Choice of soy is also important, since an error in selection can result in damage. Stan Sandler discussed this in the archives some time back. He has cows, so milk was a natural. Maybe he will contribute something here. Our feeling has been that our bees are confined and we don't want to take the chance on including milk. We also don't have milk powder handy, and besides, it is costly. Our goal is to get good results using commonly available, inexpensive products. We also are looking at making a supplement, not a substitute. You may like to write to Dr. Gordon Wardell at the Tucson lab for an opinion, since this kind of thing is what he is working on these days. I'm sure if you ask a clear and simple question, he would be glad to answer it as best he can. Please remember, however, that bee nutrition is a very complex and tecnical topic and there is likely no one correct answer, nor one that fits all situations. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Mite fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by AP4U.gmbh@T-ONLINE.DE It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----- Original message (ID=6B0A95D2) (68 lines) ------- From: AP4U.gmbh@t-online.de (A. Pausch via AP4U GmbH) Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Mite fall Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:04:35 +0100 Hi Andy, the answer is - it depends. If 50 mites over 24 hours is what you find without having treated against varroa (natural fall out) then this is a hell of a investation. You can propably assume that the number of mites left in the colony is abot 100 - 200 (some scientists even suggest up to 300) times of that. If however 50 mites is the result following a varroa treatment then it is low when you assume that your treatment was effective (and bees not having brood). However if you have doubts that your treatment was not effective (because bees still having brood, the mists being resistant aginst the drug, etc...) then only 50 mites would be an indication of a unsuccessfull treatment. Regards Albrecht