From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:18:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7C148ED1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZd4011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0301D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 156962 Lines: 3529 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: What, no milk? In-Reply-To: <001a01c2c1b7$82fb04e0$3051fea9@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Allen and all: >There is some confusion about whether the lactic acid in skim milk is >toxic to bees or not. Choice of soy is also important, since an error >in selection can result in damage. Stan Sandler discussed this in the >archives some time back. He has cows, so milk was a natural. Maybe he >will contribute something here. The lactic acid is probably ok. It is the lactose that is a problem. It is one of the few sugars that bees cannot digest. There is probably not enough in skim milk powder to worry about. However whey powder has a very high concentration. Despite this, whey powder was one of the ingredients tried when Haydak and others were trying all kinds of ingredients in the fifties. I very much agree with Allen that skim milk powder is now far too expensive an ingredient to consider despite the fact that I expect it is a good protein source. I no longer have a dairy herd. Bees don't kick and they don't have horns. I used to say that their shit was a lot easier to shovel too. However the cows didn't do it on my windshield. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:56:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Mite Fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Have misplaced my varroa book and was hoping someone could tell me if 50 mites >over 24 hours onto the full floor under a mesh floor is a high number or a low >number? >It is equiv of 1 brood box in strength - I have one really untidy office to >demolish - I know the book is here somewhere...... The UK's CSL National Bee Unit has an online varroa calculator - based on our varroa population modelling work - which is intended to answer this sort of question. To use it, you enter the monitoring data you have (whether from natural mite mortality, or from counting infested drone pupae), and some details of the length of brood rearing season and amount of drone brood in your colonies. The model then estimates your mite population and suggests how long it is before treatment will be required. Although intended for beekeepers in the UK, it may also be of interest to beekeepers in other countries, although obviously for beekeepers in the southern hemisphere some seasonal adjustments will be required. For further details see: http://www.nationalbeeunit.com James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector Central Science Laboratory - National Bee Unit E-mail: j.morton@csl.gov.uk CSL website: http://www.csl.gov.uk National Bee Unit website: http://www.nationalbeeunit.com ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:27:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: What, no milk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis, Stan, et al: Thanks for sharing your experience, Dennis. Your Vitamin C addition, I found, rather interesting although I wouldn’t try: in this context, VC sounds almost like a hard drug, for me. At times, I, too, even entertained myself with the idea of boiling eggs and mixing it with the supplemental powder-mix in the bona fide fashion of a true Voodoo doctor! [In fact, I read somewhere someone suggesting, I believe, egg white in the mix] How about a dash of red pepper powder to fire them up? Since I, while looking for sources for brewer’s yeast, stumbled into this seeming controversy of various pollen supplement recipes, let me hear from someone who, like Dennis, experimented lately with different recipes in a semi-controlled environment--without the premix or real pollen. According to my limited observation, I will be quite satisfied with feeding brewer’s yeast alone mixed with sugar, it seems. [ Lloyd, I will be talking to NWC breeder in CA thanks to your suggestion] In fact, there are others who claim that it does not matter whether the soy flour should have less than 5% protein or not [fatty soy meal]. I jess dung no. This seeming confusion and contradictory practices make beekeeping even more interesting and certainly democratic! Cheers, Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: Rick Drutchas Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: winter flights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I went to an interesting talk last night by Bernt Hiendrich. He = collected dead bees in the snow that where over one hundred yards from = their hive and found that many of them had not voided their waste. From = this observation he has summized that bees fly out in the winter not = only to void wastes but also to look for early blooms, even in the = middle of the cold winter. I wonder why a bee wouldnt dump as soon as it = leaves the hive, are these bees sick? Could it be that this waste is = used as a heat sink to help keep warm during winter flights? =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: What, no milk? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If I remember the constituents of whole milk they are approximately 83% water, proteins and minerals such as calcium, 3.5% fat, and 13% sugars, mainly lactose. If Lactose is a problem , then milk is not indicated. If dried milk is used the % of sugars rise due to it being fat free Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: What, no milk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...Vitamin C addition, I found, rather interesting although > I wouldn’t try: in this context, VC sounds almost like a hard > drug, for me. Vitamin C is common, it seems to (all?) artificial insect diets. Tang(tm) was -- I think I can tell now -- the 'secret ingredient' in Andy's bee diet. >interesting and certainly democratic! Democracy often has more to do with feelings than with fact. Bee survival and prosperity usually has more to do with fact than feelings. See also the sig. allen www.honeybeeworld.com (c)Permission to reproduce, granted. Opinions are not necessarily facts. Free advice is the most expensive. --- ~ Wild Bee's BBS, a HONEY of a BBS (209) 826-8107 --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ Honey Lovers Stick Together (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: winter flights > Could it be that this waste is used as a heat sink > to help keep warm during winter flights? Could it be that they were constipated? allen www.honeybeeworld.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:23:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Friendly advice to those Midwest beekeepers sitting by the fireplace thinking they have got (at least) another week before putting their bees into Almonds. Hives are allready being set and others are setting this weekend. One to one and a half weeks earlier than last year. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: What, no milk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Vitamin C is common, it seems to (all?) artificial insect diets. > Tang(tm) was -- I think I can tell now -- the 'secret ingredient' in > Andy's bee diet. To go further with this, It seems to me that it may be the citric acid that is involved in insect diets. Tang contains a fair amount of citric acid and less ascorbic, I think. FWIW, citric acid can be bought at any wine making store. At any rate, if you are really interested, search with Google for variations of the words artificial insect and diet, plus whatever you fancy Here are a few hits to get you started. http://insectscience.org/1.7/ http://www.insectscience.org/1.7/ref/table1.html allen www.honeybeeworld.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:20:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: winter flights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could it be that it takes time for the feces to travel down the gi tract, being triggered by the cold air which accounts for the behavior seen? Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:25:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hives are allready being set and others are setting this weekend. One to one and a half weeks earlier than last year. Thanks for that heads-up Bob. How is the supply of bees for the almonds? There was talk that they might be short, but I was talking to Joe Traynor and he seems to be okay, but then I imagine he has people beating down the door to work with him. Since we're selling off hives, we'd been thinking of sending a truckload -- or two -- if supplies are short. Of course, we could not get them back up here over the Canada/US border, so w'd have to sell them, or contract them to someone down there. What are others hearing? Are supplies of bees short? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:37:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >How is the supply of bees for the almonds? There was talk that they might be short, but I was talking to Joe Traynor and he seems to be okay, but then I imagine he has people beating down the door to work with him. In the area we are in the problem seems to be California bees of low strength causing growers to hire extra hives. Our hives are very strong but did not happen by accident. We sent more hives than our contract called for and they called yesterday and said they wanted all the hives. >Since we're selling off hives, we'd been thinking of sending a >truckload -- or two -- if supplies are short. Of course, we could not get them back up here over the Canada/US border, so w'd have to sell them, or contract them to someone down there. Joe Traynor, Pat Heitkam (Pres. ABF) or Lyle Johnstone (Pres. AHPA) broker hives for the almonds. These three are honest! Other brokers are listed in ABJ which I am not familiar with ( these may be honest also ). Possible problem: Digging bees out of a snow bank and shipping to Almonds has problems. Many hives are simply not strong enough to polinate and you pay shipping to California and back for your winter deadouts. A Missouri beekeeper (not me) shipped two semi loads dug from snow banks to California two winters ago. Lyle J. was the broker. The hives were 80% dead when arrived in California and the rest were not strong enough to polinate. The beekeeeper had to pay shipping both ways and recieved no polination fees. Lyle J. was the broker and will fill in the details to you if ask. >What are others hearing? Are supplies of bees short? We hear supplies of bees are short. Most migratory beekeepers keep silent but maybe a few will comment. I know of several large migratory beekeepers which did not go to California this year. One did not get paid last year by the broker. None of the above I listed was the broker. The owner of the Almonds said he paid the broker. We do not use a broker. The other had a large number of hives stolen. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:30:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fumigation for EFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with EFB bacteria is that they are given some protection by the cast larval cocoons and I am not sure how well the fumes penetrate. Foundation is cheap enough, especially if you don't use full sheets. Matches are cheap too. Bees seem to get a boost from being on clean comb. Concentrated acetic acid is strong stuff and will wreak havoc with metal work. Burning is the sure and simple solution. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I heard that there is a Chinook coming to Allen's region this week - maybe he wouldn't have to do any digging! Can anyone give us some figures on the number of hives that have been going to almonds these last years? What percentage would that be of the total number of colonies in the U.S. ? Peter .. in the north and minus 40oC with the windchill > >Since we're selling off hives, we'd been thinking of sending a > >truckload -- or two -- if supplies are short. Of course, we could not > get them back up here over the Canada/US border, so w'd have to sell > them, or contract them to someone down there. > > Possible problem: > Digging bees out of a snow bank and shipping to Almonds has problems. Many > hives are simply not strong enough to polinate and you pay shipping to > California and back for your winter deadouts. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:27:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Can anyone give us some figures on the number of hives that have been going to almonds these last years? Rough estimates are around one million. >What percentage would that be of the total number of colonies in the U.S. ? I would guess about half but there is not a way of getting exact numbers. Bob Ps. If a fellow beekeeper in Grand Junction, Colorado with a garage would like to help two migratory beekeepers with a truck problem tonight they are having on interstate 70 please email me. They believe they can reach Grand Junction, Colorado tonight but need to do a minor repair before they can continue through the mountains. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:09:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> ...A Missouri beekeeper (not me) shipped two semi loads dug from snow banks to California two winters ago... The hives were 80% dead when arrived in California and the rest were not strong enough to polinate. <<< Do you know if they died on the way or were in bad shape when they left Mo.? What happens if the hives encounter bad weather en route? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I know of several large migratory beekeepers which did not go to California > this year. Is this a re-focusing on honey production, prompted by the higher honey prices created by the Chinese honey contamination, or is this a coordinated attempt to gain better pollination fees for reliable providers of strong hives? The first would be a tragic error. The second would be a very interesting tactic for a large beekeeper who could "afford" to skip a spring in almonds given that last season's honey sales might have put him solidly in the black for the first time in years. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:42:44 +0530 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr Rajiv K. Gupta" Subject: release of bee bibliography first issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone at Bee-L, I have been just subscribed to this server by grateful assistance of Dr. = Matthew Shepherd. I feel glad to make an announcement to all the Bee-L subscribers that = the initial issue of the bee bibliography was released on 19 November, = 2002. In the begining it contain 12,110 research references on bees with = 6077 authors (list of publications of 514 authors complete and for 800 = more are expected as complete, yet to verify), because of limitation of = web space.=20 Everyone can visit at following website and download the e-book free of = cost, i.e. without any login charges. However, kindly do not forget to = send me your inclusions and amendments since you will agree with me that = such exhaustive work can not be completed without a world wide = cooperation. Please convey the message to all the bee biologists linked to your = goodself. With kind regards to all. Yours sincerely, Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta Associate Professor Department of Zoology Jai Narain Vyas University Jodhpur 342 005, India Address for correspondence: D-377, Saraswati Nagar Jodhpur 342 005 Phone: +91-291-272 6666 E-mail: BeesInd@datainfosys.net Visit URL: http://www.geocities.com/BeesInd and download free of cost -"An Updating Bibliography of the Bees of the World". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Almond pollination Bob's right about this year being earlier. Fruit trees are blooming in our area already. It's been up to 80 degrees, and anyone passing through is welcome to see my apple trees in full leaf, although in the almond areas it is not so radical. So, a week and a half earlier is easy to believe. Around the eucalyptus areas here, there sure are lots of hives. They have been sprouting up like mushrooms. I take it that most are people building up hives for the almonds. It must be a dilema for the big guys, since if they leave their hives here until the end of Feb. they could get a super or three like I do. I've only got about 60 strong hives, and with my 3 dollars a pound Farmer's market honey, it pays more to sit here and do nothing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:03:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <000801c2c28c$d2a20a40$3051fea9@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>> ...A Missouri beekeeper (not me) shipped two semi loads dug from > snow banks to California two winters ago... The hives were 80% dead when > arrived in California and the rest were not strong enough to polinate. I looked at some hives in a big holding yard last spring.They had been brought in from a Northern state for the almonds.Most had softball size clusters ,and were a total loss for the poor guy that trucked them down.The broker told me he had some tested and tracheal mites were the culprit.They had extremely high levels,but I dont remember the actual numbers.And I dont know if they crashed after they got here or not,but I would assume they did.Cant imagine just loading them out without checking the strength first.Anyway,Tmites must still be considered and dealt with. ---Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:31:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Do you know if they died on the way or were in bad shape when they left Mo.? My guess is they were in bad shape when they left. >What happens if the hives encounter bad weather en route? Bees going the southern route this time of year do better. Bees going the northern route do ok if the bees stay in the hives. Those that move out under the nets many times die from the wind chill and not being able to get to honey. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:00:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike, Mike said: Cant imagine just loading them out without checking the strength first. When hives have been fed heavily in the north in early fall many times the cluster is NOT in the top box. Lifting the lid does not help in checking those hives you have to dig deeper. On a day like today (zero outside ) you do not want to break the seal on the hives and ship as the boxes will not reseal like they do in warm weather and will shift in transport (kind of like a load of old dry not used for a long time supers). Calls for hives do go out (and will) around this time for bees for Almond pollination. The broker has no risk in the situation. All risk is born by the beekeeper. Reason for the advice I gave to Allen. All beekeepers do the best they can getting ready for severe winter and then CROSS THEIR FINGERS. Hard to guess whats going on in Northern hives you have not looked into in months. Mike said: Anyway,Tmites must still be considered and dealt with. I would have liked to have said the above in the last T mite discussion on BEe-L but what does a lowly beekeeper know. I have got friends in the south which fight T mites all the time but yet T mites are not a serious problem in the south as stated by researchers on BEE-L(or are they?). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:17:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I know of several large migratory beekeepers which did not go to California this year. Jim said: Is this a re-focusing on honey production, prompted by the higher honey prices created by the Chinese honey contamination, or is this a coordinated attempt to gain better pollination fees for reliable providers of strong hives? The first would be a tragic error. Severe draught in many areas of the best honey production with no end in sight is resulting in many hives being sent to Almonds to help income. The down side is what are you going to do with all the extra brood if you are in an area of draught when the bees return. Put more hives on the ground to cost money feeding? When I was in California in December growers were crying about the cost of pollination today. Hard to believe they will pay higher pollination fees but maybe they will if desperate. Many California growers also raise & sell raisens which sold below the cost of production last year. Many are bulldozing their grape vines and putting in Almonds which should effect Almond prices in the future (lower Almond prices) and cause extra hives to be needed for pollination ( my opinion). Although the relationship between growers and beekeepers in California is excellent now the out of state beekeeper will not come if the reason for coming is not there. Friendship is friendship but business is business. One very large grower/ Almond packer said to me "every beekeeper which has been coming but does not come this year will not pollinate Almonds in California again". He was trying to get me in an augument. I had no comment much to his dismay. What do the beekeepers on the list think ? We go to Alomonds for reasons not outlined here. Talk between us is we may not go to California next year and go back to the way we used to winter in the south. Jim said: The second would be a very interesting tactic for a large beekeeper who could "afford" to skip a spring in almonds given that last season's honey sales might have put him solidly in the black for the first time in years. Almonds are not the big profit maker unless you live in California close to the Almonds you pollinate. I know of no out of state beekeepers which are solidly in the black. Has been interesting to see the area each beekeeper has chosen to spend his/her windfall profits. None I have talked to have chosen to save the profits for the next crisis. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>I would have liked to have said the above in the last T mite discussion on BEe-L but what does a lowly beekeeper know. I have got friends in the south which fight T mites all the time but yet T mites are not a serious problem in the south as stated by researchers on BEE-L(or are they?). << I heard that too. I also heard very high ranked researcher comment that T-mites don't kill hives in the south quite the way they do in the north, but that they do take quite a toll. I also heard another industry expert (one you all know) say that there are strains of bees that just will not live long in the south due to TM. I also recollect that in the Primorsky bee project, T-mites were serious in domestic stock in Iowa, but -- if I recall correctly -- not even on the radar in Mississippi. Seems that, as with almost everything to do with bees, local conditions can have a huge influence. (Isn't that the one big lesson we have leaned by hanging aropund BEE-L?) allen My website is undergoing massive renovations today, so if you don't get what you ask for, come back tomorrow. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Assuming that the point of entry for the T mites had been in the south, that pathogens go through the initial contact, explosion, and a stasis of equilibrium pattern, and finally that the bees in the south have gone through that process longer than the ones in the north-—could it be possible that the bees in the south have learned to *put up with* T mites better than the ones in the north? Just a thought after reading our late debate. Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:45:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and Everyone, Until this year, my hives were plagued by the T mites. With the Russian bees T mite resistance has been very much publicized on Bee-L as well as in the general beekeeping press, my experience has been just the opposite. My Russian bees could carry lots of mites without the massive symtoms shown by other lines. Yet they collapsed just as fast as the others. That included all of my Russian stock including one very expensive breeder and several just plain expensive breeders. It should be noted that I don't treat for mites at all, no patties, no menthol, no oil, nothing. Maybe some of the favorable reports noted are from those that routinely treat for mites. Of course my local conditions might not be too favorable :>). But before switching over to a new line give them at least 2 years and watch what happens in your location with your type of management. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:35:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Russian bees T mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With the Russian bees T mite resistance has been very much > publicized on Bee-L as well as in the general beekeeping press, my > experience has been just the opposite... > Of course my local conditions might not be too favorable :>). But > before switching over to a new line give them at least 2 years and > watch what happens in your location with your type of management. Interesting point. I'm glad to get this kind of report, since the official tests have necessarily been restricted to specific locations and operators. As the stock gets distributed, we are bound to get a clearer picture of the advantages and the weaknesses of the stock. As we have learned over and over, YMMV. Local conditions can have a huge effect that is hard to predict. > That included all of my Russian stock including one very expensive > breeder and several just plain expensive breeders. Are you saying the 'very expensive breeder' came down with T-mites, or that her progeny did? Were they Russian or a cross? Although the good properties of the Russian stock are reported to be demonstrated in outcrosses, they have been predicted to be -- and also have been reported widely to be -- diluted. One thing that Tom Rinderer emphasized repeatedly (or maybe it was just that I heard the same presentation three times) was that the Russian bees should, and cannot be, evaluated from bees sold by breeders unless the breeder has been in the Russian program for two years or more, has obtained breeder queens each year -- and can control the matings, or uses instrumental insemination. As I understand it, the 'Russian' stock is undergoing constant selection and the lab practices a three year rotation of the lines they use, while injecting new blood from Russia each year. Anyone coming up in with only one year's stock release, or with an inadequate sample of the stock will not have a representative sample and wil also being dealing with diluted stock. Apparently there are some people who obtained a breeder or two and now claim to have Russin stock. They may even charge high prices for their product. At any rate AFAIK, there is only one authorised breeder who distributes the stock to other breeders. He is Steve? Bernard, and I'm sorry I didn't pay more attention, but I'm from Canada and cannot buy those queens anyhow -- for now, at least. Those breeders who buy from him may follow the program to a greater or lesser degree, so it is necessary to ask the details when buying. Without knowing where the 'very expensive breeder' came from, it is hard to know what to think. I'd like to hear more. > It should be noted that I don't treat for mites at all, no patties, no > menthol, no oil, nothing. Maybe some of the favorable reports noted > are from those that routinely treat for mites. Nope. The pure Russian stock is supposed to very T-mite tolerant, and that has been shown both in Iowa and in Ontario, Canada. allen www.honeybeeworld.com (under maintenance today) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:12:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Tracheal mites discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said: , and finally that the bees in the south have gone through that process longer than the ones in the north--could it be possible that the bees in the south have learned to *put up with* T mites better than the ones in the north? When we first saw TM very few hives survived so the beekeepers which had TM the longest were the first to bounce back as the most susceptable bees had allready died off. The problem in the north Yoon is the overwintering with a high TM infestation. My opinion which I have presented before on BEE-L many times is simple. Generally speaking black races (carniolans) tolerate TM better than the yellow races (Italians). ALTHOUGH THROUGH BREEDING ALL RACES CAN BE BRED TO BETTER HANDLE TM When not selected for TM tolerance the carniolans seem to handle TM better than most Italians. Many beekeepers never have had to treat for TM when running carniolans and they raise their own queens and have never selected for TM resistance. Myself and many researchers disagree on the amount of TM which is acceptable in a colony. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Russian bees T mite resistance Allen and All, Steve Bernard is correct. Bernard's Apiaries in Breaux Bridge, LA is now selling pure Russian queens naturally mated on an isolated island off the coast of LA. He can be reached at sbernhoney@aol.com. Prices for his open mated queens are quite high, $500.00 a wack at my last checking. Glenn Apiaries in Fallbrook, CA uses AI from "pure" Rusian queens and Russian drones (Both progeny of Benard's). Cost now is $275.00/$75.00 for their AI mated queens plus $25.00 to ship. Their website is: http://members.aol.com/queenb95/catalog.html#anchor2529673 Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC Where the current temp is: 11 degrees F with 3 inches of fresh Alberta Powder! Thank you Allen! Low tonight expected: 5 F. Winds are out of the NNW at 15-20 mph. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > When I was in California in December growers were crying about the cost of > pollination today. Hard to believe they will pay higher pollination fees but > maybe they will if desperate. > Many California growers also raise & sell raisens which sold below the cost > of production last year. Many are bulldozing their grape vines and putting > in Almonds which should effect Almond prices in the future (lower Almond > prices) and cause extra hives to be needed for pollination ( my opinion). A grower's willingness to expand almond acreage speaks much louder about his insensitivity to pollination fees than his usual whining does. Don't growers always sing this song? The only way to truly eliminate the problem is for beekeepers to partner with specific growers in long-term relationships where payment for pollination was based upon crop yield. Yes, both parties would be taking on significant additional risk, but the current transaction-oriented approach pits everyone against everyone, and worst of all, rewards cheaters and slick operators. Only an incentive to work for and pay for results would allow beekeepers and growers to realize that they share a destiny. The best part is that both parties gain an incentive to work on effective pollination, rather than haggling over surface-level metrics like "hive strength", and "per hive fees". > One very large grower/ Almond packer said to me "every beekeeper which > has been coming but does not come this year will not pollinate Almonds in > California again". Everyone has been told one time or another by some blowhard or another "you'll never eat lunch in this town again". The statement clearly reveals the grower's fears and sense of powerlessness/frustration. > He was trying to get me in an augument. I had no comment much to his > dismay. What do the beekeepers on the list think ? 1) A rational person would interpret the statement as a threat of a boycott of some kind against one or more pollinators who might decline to participate in the annual road rally and hive-tossing competition where the race to the bottom of the quality and price curves continues unabated. 2) While it is impossible for an almond grower to forego pollination, it is very possible for him to refuse to pay, or refuse to pay in a timely manner. If you agree with my reasoning, it seems clear that his statement alone is grounds for his name to be circulated among the pollinators as someone who has identified himself as a credit risk, and therefore deserves no terms better than "cash payment upon hive placement", or better yet "payment in advance". When the supply of hives does not greatly exceed demand, no pollinator is really "competing" with any other. > Has been interesting to see the area each beekeeper > has chosen to spend his/her windfall profits. > None I have talked to have chosen to save the profits for the next crisis. That's really scary. They are creating their own "next crisis" by spending their rainy day fund. Looks like they all will have no choice to accept whatever lame deal they are offered by the almond growers next year, and the year after that, and so on. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 06:56:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <01C2C309.97B356F0.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Many California growers also raise & sell raisens which sold below the cost > > of production last year. Many are bulldozing their grape vines and putting > > in Almonds which should effect Almond prices in the future (lower Almond > > prices) and cause extra hives to be needed for pollination ( my opinion). Some prune orchards are also being taken out.Low prices caused by oversupply of prunes.The growers decided to take out enough acreage to lower supply.Some are being replaced with almonds ,some walnuts(I think walnuts are a mistake.China is getting into walnut production on a huge scale)California just finished harvesting over a billion pounds of almonds.The price seems steady as there is a good demand from Asia(See,we actually have something to send back on the container ships) > > > One very large grower/ Almond packer said to me "every beekeeper which > > has been coming but does not come this year will not pollinate Almonds in > > California again". What do the beekeepers on the list think ? Bigmouth Bluster. > 1) A rational person would interpret the statement as a threat > of a boycott of some kind against one or more pollinators > who might decline to participate in the annual road rally > and hive-tossing competition where the race to the bottom > of the quality and price curves continues unabated. With good demand for srong hives,I dont think there has been much price cutting.As soon as the hives are delivered,a small army of strength inspectors goes to work counting frames of bees to verify that you have in fact delivered what you said you would.Some will escape inspection,but it is better to figure on it-keeps everyone honest. > > 2) While it is impossible for an almond grower to forego pollination, > it is very possible for him to refuse to pay, or refuse to pay in > a timely manner. Slow pays and no pays dont get bees next year.The word goes out. > > When the supply of hives does not greatly exceed demand, no pollinator > is really "competing" with any other. There are always enough hives.There are never enough 8 frame or better. > > Has been interesting to see the area each beekeeper > > has chosen to spend his/her windfall profits. > > None I have talked to have chosen to save the profits for the next crisis. I wouldnt consider them windfall profits if they are averaged against the low prices paid the last few years.Just shows what can happen if the cheap imports can be slowed a bit. ---Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:17:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Russian bees T mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and Everyone, >Are you saying the 'very expensive breeder' came down with T-mites, or that her progeny did? Were they Russian or a cross? The very expensive breeder was supplied by Steve Bernard from the first batch released. The bees were gentle, conservative and very interesting. The other breeders were obtained from Glenn Apiaries. The progeny were crosses with my own local stock. They were not gentle or t mite tolerant. Both the breeders and the progeny perished from T mites. It's interesting to note that my own stock was very T mite tolerant. I switched my stock over to the Russian lines prematurely as they were more tolerant of varroa by about a magnitude compared to my own stock. I didn't anticipate the problems with T mites :>( Dennis Murrell Not testing anymore beta versions at $500 each. Will wait for the final release. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:12:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Oxalic Acid in New Zealand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I notice that oxalic acid is okayed for use in NZ. http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/oxalic- acid-guideline.pdf allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:44:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering about an opinion on immersion heaters. Since the price doesnt make a difference, would everyone use a 220 or 110 volt version. Since I am not a "big" operation I dont think power usage is a serious concern. On an opinion note: As a keeper in the south, first in Georgia and now in southern Tennessee, I personally believe the T-mite problem arrives from the overwintering. That is not to say T-mites wont kill southern bees. When I got my first 2 hives, the clusters were very small. I would say less than a 3 lb package, more like a softball or slightly larger. They had little or no stores and from the k-wings I saw, I am "guessing" T-mites. I managed to nurse them through the winter by feeding directly with sugar syrup in quart jars. Now I had 2 hives in my back yard and while the nights got below freezing, most days were 40+ degrees. Now this type management would be impossible in a larger operation and up north where it never gets above freezing for weeks on end. The second year I had 5 hives and made sure all the hives were fed well before November, were treated etc. These 5 were very healthy the next spring. My rambling point is that assuming the winters are mild and not like this one has been so far, I think that southern bees can handle a larger load of mites, not so much due to the bee, but due to the conditions. I wonder if "northern" bees wouldnt handle higher loads down south too. One major effect of larger loads is smaller clusters. And smaller clusters in 20 below weather wont last as long as larger clusters. Just a thought. Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The power consumption should be the same for 110 or 220- IF the wattages are the same, however the 220 is more efficient in power transfer, especially in a heating element. Therefore the 220 would be a better choice, that is if you use it a lot and the extra wiring is minimal. Maybe a true electrician could be more precise Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:52:08 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: T-mites,Varroa et al. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As interesting the comments and interventions are that make up the bulk of the material that is sent out on Bee -L, would it not be useful if the following was possible: A generalised summary of how things stand in the apicultural world! Many individuals are unable to make it to specialised conventions, meetings and may only get parochial view points on how things stand. Magazines inform, true, but again tend to give narrow view points - no complaints intended. For instance: Where are we regarding the struggle with V.d? Much research has taken and is taking place, but compared to the end goal - what is the consensus of where we are and what HAS been achieved? Mention Tracheal mites - what is the true position regarding what is available to cope with this infestation, and how does this stand relative to a desired position? SMR, Resistant AFB, what ever! - if it is a problem in the beekeeping world - how are we coping. It would be great if the informed individuals were able to say where they were on the scale between say 1) Start of problem ... to ... 10) Problem cracked (for the moment). Am I not correct in thinking that what is going to be needed by many is a super bee? One that is going to be able to stand up to V.d/Acarine/res.AFB/ etc. etc. and in the near future. This is the case in MHO as we insist on moving "stocks" from everywhere to everywhere, therefore creating a bee environment that is prone to an amalgam of ills. I admit that even being reasonably "au fait" with what is going on - I find it difficult to determine an overall picture of how we stand. So, to put it bluntly: Who is winning the race? - the "beasties" or the researchers trying to develop what we require. A simple question really!! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:38:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > A generalised summary of how things stand in the apicultural world! A good suggestion and something that some contributors DO share. A problem can be that what is reported is not necessarily what was presented! Of course this is true of any reporting on any topic in any medium. Ever see "Reefer Madness"? Or, how many weapons of mass destruction have Iraq? > It would be great if the informed individuals were able to say where > they were on the scale between say 1) Start of problem ... to ... > 10) Problem cracked (for the moment). This would be a tough assignment. Sticking with the T-Mite discussion the past week or so, some say it's a definite 10, problem's licked. Others have said it's an 8 in the south but a 3 up north. Who's correct? I could be wishy washy and say across the board it's a definite 5! Truth is, no one knows and the only real number that is meaningful is the number in YOUR bee yard. One of my goals at EAS last summer was to schedule as many honey bee anatomy labs as possible. Except for the early morning sessions, every time slot in the schedule offered an opportunity to take anatomy lab with a declared goal of learning how to competently dissect a honey bee to diagnose the degree of T-mite infestation. Many beekeepers took the labs; the labs were well received and positively reviewed. I wonder how many beekeepers went home and looked at the tracheas in their own back yard. > Am I not correct in thinking that what is going to be needed by many is > a super bee? I believe a super bee is the Holy Grail in beekeeping. SMR, Russians and many others, Roger Morse produced AFB resistant bees, Marla Spivak's hygienic line, all of these bees certainly can be considered in the running for Super Bee! The problem is, and Marla was clear at Niagara Falls when she made the point that what is being isolated and provided by very talented breeders and researchers, is not necessarily what is being sold by the queen producers. I am not sure who is to blame here. Certainly the queen producers should be delivering what they claim. This is what Allen has been saying when he talks about an independent queen evaluation service. I see the responsibility laying perhaps no so much with the queen producers as I do with the queen consumers. Admittedly, the producers are touting the Super Bee buzz word du jour. SMR Queens! Hygienic Queens! Russians! Get them here! But at the same time, they're selling these highly touted queens as OPEN MATED! Caveat emptor! And therein lays a good part of the problem. Most beekeepers are trusting that the producers' advertisements are flawless. They believe they've bought the Super Bee solution and need not worry about the problem anymore. Hey, I requeened all my hives with open mated Russian SMR Hygienic queens from Timbuktu, so I never have to examine my bees for V-Mites, T-Mites, AFB, EFB or cholera! Then they sing the blues in a season or two when their Super Bee colonies crash. Forget that the colonies swarmed once or twice, forget that the beekeeper never assessed how their original open mated super bee queen actually performed when she was first installed, forget that the queens were never marked in the first place so the beekeeper really has no idea if the queen they installed in May is the queen that is laying in August, the heck with all that, blame the queen producer! Lousy sumbitch! Try a different producer next time. There's enough of them out there to easily fill up a career. I think what's really needed are super beeKEEPERS! I do not disagree that producers should be delivering what they are advertising. I claim they ARE delivering what they are advertising. Unless one pays for an II queen, producers are (should be) delivering open mated daughters of quality breeder queens. OPEN MATED is a crap shoot. Hopefully reputable producers are running their operations so the mating area is sufficiently saturated with drones that are every bit as good in lineage as are the breeder queens. Is your breeder? Super beeKEEPERS will ask their producers. But even then, I feel that at least some of the responsibility of evaluating ones' queens belongs to the consumer. First, ALWAYS have your queens marked, it's the only way one can know the queen they bought is the queen that reigns. Second, evaluate that queen by assessing her performance. Is the open mated hygienic queen actually producing hygienic workers? How will one know if one doesn't assess performance? Is your SMR queen producing a colony that suppresses mite reproduction? Are the Russians wearing those furry hats and speaking with an accent? Assess what you've bought! And if performance is not up to par, get back with your producer; lodge a complaint and demand satisfaction. If queen consumers were demanding replacement on poorly performing queens, producers would be a lot more contentious about the product they sell! Advertised claims would either be toned down or quality will pick up. And if/when the quality picks up, forget about queens at 8 dollars a pop! Allen has suggested an independent evaluator. I don't see where the incentive (CASH) is for the independent evaluator. Perhaps if there were a $1 per queen fee that goes to the independent evaluator the idea would float. Hmmm, $1 per queen sounds a lot less palatable than a penny a pound, I guess not. I suggest that the consumer should be the evaluator, and demand that quality be delivered. Problem with that is it's a LOT OF WORK! It's easier to buy queens, believe a super has arrived and grouse when it ain't so. And the large commercial guys could never make that kind of investment and stay in business. > So, to put it bluntly: Who is winning the race? > - the "beasties" or the researchers trying to > develop what we require. Researchers are making great progress, it can't be denied. They're delivering great stuff to breeders. Breeders are probably delivering great stuff to producers. Producers may or may not be selling great stuff to consumers. And some, perhaps many, consumers are complacent or incompetent or just plain too lazy to assure that what they have is what they bought. And this leaves out of the picture totally those beekeepers that make no effort whatsoever to even care about their queens. So who's winning? I'd place my bet on Beastie Bug to win, place and show in the fourth! Aaron Morris - thinking I'm sounding an awful lot like George! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:54:43 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & All, Back from R&R and to the front line, I will probably get shot down. Aaron wrote; > OPEN MATED is a crap shoot. Hopefully reputable producers are running their operations so the mating area is sufficiently saturated with drones that are every bit as good in lineage as are the breeder queens. Is your breeder? Super beekeeper's will ask their producers. > Open mated is a crap shoot, I do not think so. Honey bees for eons have been mating in the open to create the variability that gives breeders today the material they use to manipulate the genetics for the good or bad. Super beekeeper's will ask their producers, I think better. Super beekeepers will learn to be real beekeepers and rear and mate their own queens. Also associations and periodicals should, in my opinion, be encouraging and teaching methods of rearing queens. Queens need not always come to a beekeeper in the mail but instead from a fellow beekeeper in ones own local. Cooperation? > And some, perhaps many, consumers are complacent or incompetent > or just plain too lazy to assure that what they have is what they bought. > And this leaves out of the picture totally those beekeepers that make no > effort whatsoever to even care about their queens. > See comments above. Also if beekeepers really cared about their queens they would breed their own from their best surviving stock. A bee that will survive your location and your management practises. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: Making it Work In-Reply-To: <007401c2bf39$0bd4ed20$74b85ad1@Pegasus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 04:31 PM, allen dick wrote: > Maybe those queen producers who make this effort for their customers > can > then expect to ask a slightly higher price for their queens or expect > to > be preferred suppliers. Maybe they can get a marketing advantage out > of > it. During the Queen Rearing session at Niagara Falls in December, I said that " as a good breeder queen with papers(stated qualities) can be worth $500 or more, and a ?queen? $10, there is lots of room for breeders of quality queens to be rewarded for their good work." Many queen producers use terms like hygienic to describe their queens. If they are proven to have a hygienic trait they are worth more to the purchaser. Word of mouth will quickly give the marketing advantage that Allen talks of. Bob Darrell Caledon, Ontario Canada 44N80W ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:45:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Jan 2003 to 24 Jan 2003 (#2003-25) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/24/03 11:03:03 PM Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << This is the case in MHO as we insist on moving "stocks" from everywhere to everywhere, therefore creating a bee environment that is prone to an amalgam of ills. >> This was a point/question I brought up a couple years ago at the Tennessee Beekeepers meeting and while I understand the answer, I still wonder If it would be better to try it. It seems to me that if Allen has bees that through various Genetics does well in Canada, that Allen should raise some queens and use them. I realize that the further north one goes the later in the year it is to get everything going. But It just seems to me that "Northern Bees" that do well in that environment should be selected and distributed there. While "Southern Bees'" would do better in the South. Now maybe in the end the genetics have been manipulated enough that there really are no longer Southern and Northern Bees, just bees, and certian problems are harder depending on environment. Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 01:18:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Open mated is a crap shoot, I do not think so. Honey bees for eons have > been mating in the open to create the variability that gives breeders > today the material they use to manipulate the genetics for the good or > bad. True. If your goal is a diverse gene pool, a real primordial soup of genes, then open mating is ideal to keep everything, the good and the bad all mixed up. If diversity is the sole goal, then open mating ideally serves the goal. It is highly doubtful that the super bee will be a mutt. Possible, but not likely. It will more likely be and in fact IS the result of a concerted effort by breeders and/or researchers to isolate the good from the bad in a gene pool of all mixed up qualities. The researchers and breeders work for generations (bee generations, not people generations) to repeatedly isolate the best of the good, and strive to pass the best of the best on to the next generations. After a lot of work and many generations of isolating the good and culling the bad, breeders arrive at a lineage that has tested positively to possess the quality sought, be it SMR or HYG or AFB resistance, whatever. It is this proven lineage that is sold for BIG bucks to the producers. If the producers are good producers, they successfully maintain that lineage, that bred for trait, the results of all the work put into it by the researchers and breeders. If the producers are good producers they will deliver this lineage in the product they sell. The super beekeeper will ask of their producers, "What are they doing to maintain the lineage of their breeder stock?" A weak answer will be drone saturation (flooding mating areas with drones of superior lineage similar to their breeder queens). A better answer will be continued assays to evaluate the progeny of their breeder queens, keeping only the good and culling the bad. It's not a trivial exercise to isolate all these good qualities and it is very easy to lose them. SMR is heritable across generations but can be lost. HYG is recessive. Genetic diversity is a safeguard against inbreeding, and THAT is the evolutionary advantage to open mating. What you need is open mating that maintains genetic diversity while maintaining the desired quality of the lineage that has been delivered by the breeders to the producers. Unfortunately, open mating is more likely to dilute the lineage, not strengthen it. It's Catch 22! A good analogy can be found in the wine industry. There are hundreds, no, thousands of wild yeasts, any of which will ferment grape juice. Centuries of isolating the yeasts that produce good tasting wine from the yeasts that produce swill have resulted in a comparatively small set of yeast cultures that are actually used in vineyards. A vintner wouldn't dream of chancing a harvest to any old wild yeast (although there is a hugely diverse gene pool of wild yeasts out there any one of which will do the job). Open mating queens is like trusting a vineyard's harvest to wild yeast. Getting back to the distinction between breeder and producer, I don't mean to put words in Dr. Spivak's mouth, but I interpreted in what she said a growing frustration that all the work being done to bring great qualities to the forefront, the successes in producing the so called super bee are quickly being lost at a level higher than the end user. Researchers HAVE isolated bees who can stand the ravages of V.d. They HAVE isolated qualities to resist AFB. It's been done repeatedly. The frustration is in that the qualities isolated at the research level are not making it to the beekeeper level. Where is it lost and who is responsible for making sure it not be is a current debate. Perhaps it IS the producers who are accountable. In writing this I am starting to convince myself that is where the blame should lie. I'd like to think that at least SOME producers ARE delivering what they advertise, but I can't say with confidence who they are. And I still believe that some of the responsibility, a LOT of the responsibility lies with the consumer, precisely because they have bought an open mated queen. In a lot of 50 or 100 queens, I expect at least a few duds. Assembly line production of queens is such that if a queen is laying eggs in a mating nuc, she is deemed saleable. I'm buying a queen whose mother is known, whose sperm donors might have been any Tom, Dick or Harry, Larry, Moe or Curly AND I expect that queen to be every bit as good as her expensive breeder mother!? I think that's asking a lot. I can buy queens advertised to be descendants of SMR breeders for $8.50 a pop in quantity. At that price I don't know how much expectation I can have of that open mated queen to have retained all or enough of the SMR trait that I can sit back and be confident that suppressive mite reproduction is happening in her hive. I can buy an II SMR queen for $50. At that price I think it's very reasonable of me to expect suppressive mite reproduction in her hive. Hmmm. That's a $41.50 difference. Nice chunk of change. That easily covers any sort of strips I might use (back when strips worked) and leaves money to pay for an independent source that could be evaluating those open mated $8.50 queens (as Allen has proposed). I'm not sure what to make of that figure. $50 a hive is took much for me, guess I'll have to get more hives, which means more queens at $50, so more hives, more queens, more, more, more.... OK, that's not working. > Super beekeepers will learn to be real beekeepers and rear and mate > their own queens. Yes, I even wrote this conclusion down in my notebook at Niagara Falls. The rub there is it takes time and raising queens definitely puts the beekeeper on the bees' schedule and good queens don't just happen! Growing queens is easy. Breeding and mating superior queens is at least an art, arguable a science! But yes, breeding your own queens is a better solution. However you still have the open mating issue and the possibility of bad wine. Raising your own and practicing II, the ultimate solution! Guess THIS beekeeper is going to need longer days and longer weeks to run all those extra hives and raise all those queens. Good night, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:39:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, Hopefully in the coming weeks I will get time to answer some of Peter's questions about the ABF convention. I apologize for not being able to spend the time right now. Interesting points Aaron has posted an I can not really argue with his position as is the position of most researchers. I will add the other side of the coin for the discussion. Aaron said: But yes, breeding your own queens is a better solution. However you still have the open mating issue and the possibility of bad wine. Raising your own and practicing II, the ultimate solution! The above is OK for the small beekeeper which has time and wants to play queen breeder. For the industry Allen is going in the right direction (in my opinion). Many of my beekeeper friends in Texas, Alabama and Florida do raise their own queens for their operations. We have raised a huge number of queens in south Texas while hives were still buried in snow banks in Missouri.. Raising early queens will not work for us in Missouri as we simply can't get mature drones early enough and mating conditions are less than ideal at the time we need queens. There are reasons ( to numerous to post now) why overwintering young queens from the fall before will not work for us. Overwintering queens works for others and I endorse the idea but we have had better luck in spring raising queens. Raising queens in spring is natural for bees. Many times we have to get queens from a area (Hawaii) because they are simply the only place we can get queens as early as we need the queens. I was opposed to using Hawaiian queens at first for the reasons Tim said but we have had good luck with the Hawaiian queens. Open mating: Open mating is here to stay. With a queen mating in the air high above the hives there simply is not another way for production queens. The old bee books are full of methods tried unsuccessfully to get queens to mate in small cages. A few beekeepers actually claimed success but were later disproved. One can instrumentally inseminate ( II ) to improve your breeder queens BUT the best production queens I have ever used came from the breeder queen selection process used by the old queen raiser families. II queens are good for the purpose intended. To introduce certain traits into your production stock. All our II breeder queens but one (A Marla Spivak II queen which lasted four years from which thousands of daughters were raised) have been short lived. We actually took the Marla Spivak II queen from the coffin hive and set her up in a normal hive and she lived another year before she was superceded ( out of kindness I suppose and we felt she deserved to live out a normal life for her service). We use a long coffin type hive to reduce the brood laying area many times to prolong the longevity. A apiary made up of entirely II mated queens would only work for a small queen breeder. Many of our queen breeders raise 150,000 queens a year and although the people at the top are very knowledgeable those actually producing , evaluating and caging the queens for shipment are simply working too fast to give the queens the proper selection. If they see eggs in the cage she goes. Keep on posting Aaron you have been silent for awhile. Maybe you have been on R&R like Keith! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Who's winning? Greetings I think Aaron made several important points. I urge anyone who skimmed his message to read it carefully and assimilate what he said. We need to be better beekeepers. It's not a matter of learning it and then doing it, one has to keep on learning one's whole life. Everything is changing and more rapidly than ever before. Beekeeping is 50% back, 50% brain. You can't skimp on either. The future lies in better bees, not letting nature take her course. Nature will probably ensure that bees will survive, but not necessarily *my* bees and not necessarily bee-keepers. Good examples from the wine industry! The grapes themselves have been selected and bred, too. If you want good wine you have to pay more; the blended stuff can be real cheap but you may get a hangover... Beekeeping is one of those things that is so tightly tied to weather and climate and markets, that it will always be unpredictable. That's why so few people are in agriculture, it just keeps getting harder all the time. You have to love it. And I haven't heard of anyone getting a crop insurance policy on honey. pb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:23:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Hobby vs Sideline vs Commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering about the definitions of those in the subject line. At what point does the transfer go from one to the next? Does it have to be solely due to the number of hives or could attitude be part of it? I have a friend for example who has 75 hives in four locations back in Georgia. He would swear his is a hobby as he does a lot of pollination and the honey he does gather from year to year he gives away either to friends or I know one year he gave about 20 supers to another beekeeper to extract and do what ever with, he just wanted to have the supers back. Any ideas? Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Radio show I'd be glad for some helpful tips. Like many of you I've given the "bee talk" to schools and other groups many times, but one of my customers hosts a gourmet cooking radio hour, and asked me to be on in early Feb. after tasting my uncooked local fall crop :-) I get the feeling that the listeners would be less interested in how many days it takes for a drone to hatch than, say, the amount of honey used to replace sugar, but I must confess I know very little about high end cooking. My wife is compiling some honey recipies on our website, but I would be very gratefull for some input that some of the rest of you have had dealing with this specific subject. Thanks Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:15:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > >>It would be great if the informed individuals were able to say where >>they were on the scale between say 1) Start of problem ... to ... >>10) Problem cracked (for the moment). >> >This would be a tough assignment. Sticking with the T-Mite discussion the >past week or so, some say it's a definite 10, problem's licked. Others have >said it's an 8 in the south but a 3 up north. Who's correct? I could be >wishy washy and say across the board it's a definite 5! Truth is, no one >knows and the only real number that is meaningful is the number in YOUR bee >yard. > > HI Aaron and All, > A point well taken. Do not EVER expect Super Bee. It will not happen. You can find very good genetic stock that will work in your area. Bees are like grasses , You will not find the same grass growing all over North America. Our researchers are doing an outstanding job going foreword against the T-mite. How do you get that to your yard? Work. , work and more work. I'm first in contact with the one that is supplying the Breeders to my queen producer. Then I interact with my queen producer on the stock selection I want for any given year. I have been using Russians from the time they were worthless (blue line) ( $ 250 ea. ). Now I can say that my yards look very good this year with no chemicals. How did I get there. I requeened 140% last year. That means that I have hygienic stock checked by me. The complexity of open breeding and variables with it gives the breeder a larger mountain to climb. Some are better climbers than others. Wisdom comes over time and work. George has shared, some of his wisdom with us on the list.. It is up to us to cross the path and get deeper into our problems. Nobody has the corner on understanding and knowledge. We are dealing with many different pieces of the puzzle. Some problems need to be solved in your own back yard. >One mentality has to be given up. A quick fix with chemicals. Put it in the hive and I'm done. > Nature has the fix if we can find it.. Best Regards Roy > > > > > > > >> > > > >Aaron Morris - thinking I'm sounding an awful lot like George! > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:33:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: >>Open mated is a crap shoot, I do not think so. Honey bees for eons have >>been mating in the open to create the variability that gives breeders >>today the material they use to manipulate the genetics for the good or >>bad. >> >> >True. If your goal is a diverse gene pool, a real primordial soup of genes, >then open mating is ideal to keep everything, the good and the bad all mixed >up. If diversity is the sole goal, then open mating ideally serves the >goal. > > My bees open mate, but I know they will never be a super bee since it is a crap shoot. The problem is mostly the beekeeper but also the bee First, you have no control over the drones that come from other yards which probably use pest controls. So you are diluting any advantage right off. Second, the beekeeper will use controls, be they organic or whatever, to keep their bees alive, so the bees are really not the fittest survivors. Third, because your bees are not really adapted to "total killer" pests, they will die off if untreated. Most beekeepers are not ready to suffer such financial losses, especially since when they start over and do not treat, they will lose those bes too. So the beekeeper or his neighbor treats and the natural cycle cannot take effect and the bees will never accommodate to the pest. The bee has accommodated to your treatment regime. Or the beekeeper does not treat and his hives die off and infect other beekeepers with high pest loads which could overwhelm even SMR bees. For several years my bees were impervious to tracheal mites with no treatment. A couple of years back I lost two hives to tracheal so am treating again. I think the super bee will win out in the end. I started with Italians and shifted to NW Carnies. They are mutts now, but if a good varroa tolerant bee with semi stable genetics does emerge I would requeen them all. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I was wondering about an opinion on immersion heaters. Since the price > doesnt make a difference, would everyone use a 220 or 110 volt version. Since > I am not a "big" operation I dont think power usage is a serious concern. Tim, The unit operated at 220V should use about half of the power used by an 110V unit. You'll save on electricity. Waldemar Long Island, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:05:41 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & All, > We need to be > better beekeepers. < Which was my main point. > The future lies in better bees, not letting nature take her course. > Our great Governor Wally Hickel of Alaska once stated to activist for Wolf control measures " You can't just let nature run wild". So we have Wolf control so we can have more Moose to hunt. Man becomes a part of nature. Is man running wild? Nature bred bees and nature knows bees, maybe we should give bees a chance. To answer the question "Who's winning?", very few only those who gamble and take risk. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Baking with honey (substitutions for sugar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > honey recipies ... > input that some of the rest of you have had .... >From the National Honey Board at: http://www.nhb.org/foodserv/usage.html Substitution and Usage Tips To substitute honey for sugar in recipes, start by substituting up to half of the sugar called for. With a little experimentation, honey can replace all the sugar in some recipes. When baking with honey, remember the following: Reduce any liquid called for by 1/4 cup for each cup of honey used. Add l/2 teaspoon baking soda for each cup of honey used. Reduce oven temperature by 25° F to prevent over-browning. Because of its high fructose content, honey has a higher sweetening power than sugar. This means you can use less honey than sugar to achieve the desired sweetness. When measuring honey, keep in mind that one 12-ounce jar of honey equals a standard measuring cup. When measuring honey, coat the measuring cup with non-stick cooking spray or vegetable oil before adding the honey. The honey will slide right out. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 07:23:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Immersion Heayers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there's a confusion here , The amount of heat produced by an immersion heater depends on its wattage, not on the voltage. Electrical consumption is measured in Watts, if the wattage is the same then there is no difference between the electrical consumption. The formula is Watts = Volts x Amps, Ruary If the wattage ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 3:32 AM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) > The unit at 220V should use about half of the power used by an 110V unit. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:58:21 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Australia Day Awards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those on the list in Australia and some of our friends from across = the ditch, I am pleased to let you know that we have two beekeepers who = were given awards in today's Australia Day Awards. Both were awarded = OAM's which is Order of Australia Medal. Laurie Dewar was the first President of the Australian Honey Bee = Industry Council (AHBIC) and is currently Chairman of B-Qual. Bob = McDonald was on the first Executive of AHBIC and is currently the = Chairman of Australia Bid Committee for Apimondia in 2007. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:02:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) In-Reply-To: <00b101c2c4ee$8ece4ae0$b26bf6d1@ws04> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This isn't right. If the heaters are rated for the same power output they will consume the same energy. What changes is the current drawn by the two devices. For example if the heater is rated at 1000 watts and connected at 220 volts it will draw 4.5 amps; if rated 1000 watts and connected at 110 volts it will draw 9.09 amps. The power consumption being the product of the voltage times the current will be the same in either case. A word of caution, check the device nameplate to verify the voltage rating before connecting it to a 220 volt source. Doug The unit operated at 220V should use about half of the power used by an 110V unit. You'll save on electricity. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/03 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:12:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Martin_Hrom=E1dko?= Subject: maxinvert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello beekeepers friends, I read an advertisment about a new enzymatic preparation ( MAXINVERT ) = whivh should helps bees to split ( invert ) saccharid sugar ( = disacharid ) to monosaccharides - glucose, fructose. Beekeeper should = add it in sugar during feeding for winter and bees ( mainly winter = generation ) are better saved for nex year.Or when he wants to = stimulate bees on spring. Do you have some experiences with this? Is it = save for bees and for people? Thanks Martin Hromadko Czech republic ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 09:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Radio show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan said: > one of my customers hosts a gourmet cooking radio hour, and > asked me to be on in early Feb. > the amount of honey used to replace sugar, but I must confess > I know very little about high end cooking. My wife bakes bread and treats to order and for a few coffee shops and restaurants, so she's very serious about bread. Here's what she has in her notebook: SUGAR 3/4 cup of honey replaces one cup of sugar. Reduce other liquids by one-half cup for each cup of honey you add to the recipe. MOLASSES To substitute honey for molasses, use exactly the same amount. The resulting flavor and color will be "lighter". CORN SYRUP To substitute honey for corn syrup, use exactly the same amount, but consider reducing other sweet ingredients, as a honey is sweeter than corn syrup. BROWN SUGAR Follow the equation for "sugar", but also add molasses to taste (brown sugar is just white sugar where the molasses has not been completely removed, or has been added after refining) To measure honey, my wife uses a "Wonder Cup" measuring cup, which is a graduated cylinder with open ends, and a sliding piston inside the cylinder. The piston, when pushed "up", ejects all the honey with no waste, and no mess. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:28:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Hobbyist/sideliner/commercial Tim asked about definitions to these age old words. I understand that back in the 60's the break to sideliner was 100 hives +-. Commercial was +- 1,000 hives. I have 125 hives, sell around 80 nucs a year, 5,000-6,000 sections of comb honey, and a couple of tons of extracted honey. Most, I guess, consider me a sideliner. To me, a good definition of sideliner is one with a full-time job not related to beekeeping, and a substantial beekeeping operation that is done during off hours, days off, and during vacation. I know many persons with 300-700 hives that I classify as such. It is hard for me to think of someone with fewer than 50 hives as a sideliner, because I know how little return can be expected from so few hives. A commercial operation, to my way of thinking is one where just about the sole source of income comes from beehives (often the spouse works outside the home). Today, this tends to be 3,000 hives or so. That said, the guy running 3,000 hives with one assistant tends to be much more of a beeHAVER than a beeKEEPER. Lot's of nasty stuff going on, such as use of Mavrik, and little 'care' of bees. As one puts it to me "it is all I know, except milking, and it is a lot better choice than a dairy herd"! I know too many of these guys. Some are bee inspectors. Fortunately, I also know quite a few commercial beeKEEPERS with 700-1200 hives that operate with care and have the motto "if you take care of the bees, they will take care of you". Those who operate alone run at the lower end of the range given, and those who operate with a partner at the upper end. All spend a great deal of their time on 'marketing' (including preparing comb honey, bottling, and delivery) and many also collect and sell pollen. I think the best distinctions should be a combination of number of hives and economic return. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:29:16 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Bees BREATHE! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thermoregulation in bees is one of the biggest, if not the biggest limiting factor in flight performance. Bumblebee thoraxes tend to run at about 35 C to 40 C (95 F to 104 F) during flight, even at low air temperatures. The Argonne National Lab's synchrotron was used to x-ray a few beetles, and provided clear evidence that at least these beetles, if not all insects "breathe". (This was one of the most expensive x-rays ever made, and worse yet, was not covered by any medical insurance policy.) They expel air from their trachea, and the relaxation after the "exhalation" draws air back into the trachea. Backwards from how mammals breathe. Yes, in Saturday's Washington Post, of all places. I guess they wanted to run at least one story that was not about Darth Vader^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGeorge Bush and Iraq. Here's the online version of the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35267-2003Jan23.html jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:53:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Hobbyist/sideliner/commercial I wonder if there is another catagory. When I stand there at the Farmer's Market with my Landscape Contracting company shirt on, often (in terms of gross income from the contracts I land that way) I make much more money than the money I get from selling honey. And when I mention that I'm a beekeeper, my contracting customers occasionally ask me to bring along some honey to buy. In addition, when it's raining and I can't work outside, extracting honey keeps me working. I find it harder and harder to separate my contracting with my beekeeping, and the seven thousand dollars or so that I made last year with the bee products wasn't near what I made that is related to the fact that I'm a beekeeper. I'm sure there are others like me, maybe researchers for instance, that don't really fit into any of the three other catagories. Regards Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:49:21 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: maxinvert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Hromadko said: > MAXINVERT whivh should helps bees to split ( invert ) saccharid sugar > ( disacharid ) to monosaccharides - glucose, fructose. Beekeeper should > add it in sugar during feeding for winter and bees ( mainly winter generation ) > are better saved for nex year.Or when he wants to stimulate bees on spring. > Do you have some experiences with this? Is it save for bees and for people? Is someone actually marketing this as a bee feed additive? If so, this is perhaps the biggest joke I have seen on Bee-L in years!! Maxinvert ("u-fructofuranosidaseis") is an invertase. Adding invertase to sugar syrup intended for bee feed seems to be nothing but a time-consuming extra step, and a needless expense. The only tangible result of buying this stuff would be to convert your money into THEIR money. While it is strictly true that glucose and fructose are "more easily digested" than sucrose, it is NOT true that breaking down sucrose into glucose and fructose takes any "effort" at all. Therefore, it is not true that feeding glucose and fructose, rather than sucrose, is any "better for the bees" than feeding pure sucrose. a) The percent of sucrose (versus glucose and fructose) in nectar varies all over the scale, from nearly 0% to nearly 100%. Different plants produce different mixes of sugars. Bee saliva supplies any and all enzymes required to break down any/all sucrose, exactly as is done in your own body. b) Bees directly consume nectar all the time. Given (a), they would appear to be able to digest high concentrations of sucrose with ease, just as you can. In fact, heat alone (such as when you heat the water before you add the sugar when making sugar syrup) will break down a sizeable fraction of the sucrose to glucose and fructose. (I can't say exactly how much, as it would depend upon both "how hot" and "how long it was hot".) c) The usual invertase reaction, when using the amounts of invertase added to sugar by those who make candies, hydrolyses the sucrose over a period of WEEKS. It would not be a quick process when dealing with gallons of sugar syrup. This means yet another tank sitting around taking up space, yet another liquid to leak, spill, and make a sticky mess. d) Let the bees do the chemistry! A bee's hypopharyngeal gland produces more than just invertase. It also produces at least diastase, and glucose oxidase, and perhaps other items I have forgotten, or never learned about. e) The bees must further process even pure glucose and fructose into "brood food", adding several glandular enzymes (that I can't remember, am too lazy to look up, and can't spell or pronounce correctly anyway). Using invertase is not going to make feeding brood any easier. I have no idea what would result from feeding sugar syrup with a high concentration of invertase due to an incomplete invertase reaction, but it sure is not something that bees are used to finding in nectar. Any thoughts on the possible impact of "enzyme overdose" in nectar or bee feed, anyone? All those enzymes are going to want to "eat" something or other. Could this cause "acid reflux" in bees? Might we need to give them tiny little Zantac pills? :) Want more glucose and fructose, and less sucrose in your sugar syrup? Easy - just bring the water to a full boil before you add the sugar. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2003 to 23 Jan 2003 (#2003-24) In-Reply-To: <00b101c2c4ee$8ece4ae0$b26bf6d1@ws04> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:32 PM 1/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >The unit operated at 220V should use about half of the power used by an 110V >unit. You'll save on electricity. You will save, but not by half. 220V will use half the amps as 110V. But the total power use V*A is basically the same. However you will save some because reduction in loss due to resistance in the wires from the meter to the heater. It is a direct function of current and resistance. So bigger wire and less current means less loss even though it's the same amount of energy. This is why power transmission lines are high voltage. (Low voltage, high current has the same power but more losses than high voltage, low current) Example: Assuming 2Amps @110V (220 Watts), and 1000' of 12 gage copper wire: (12 gage copper wire being 1.588 ohms per 1000') Power Loss along the wire is I*I*R = 2*2*1.588 Loss is approximately: 6 Watts Assuming an equivalent power 1Amp @220V (220 Watts) Loss is approximately: 3 Watts Not terribly significant unless your current is high, wire is small or the length is long. Note that this loss is in heat. Using too small a wire (higher resistance) has more loss (heat) and can start a fire. Power loss in the device itself should be the same between the two units because the power loss is in heat, which is exactly what you want. Now if we were talking motors it would be a bit different, you would also save a bit more due to reduction in resistance loss in the device. And 3-phase is completely different (for motors, not resistance loss). -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:42:43 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Hobbyist/sideliner/commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd said: > I think the best distinctions should be a combination of > number of hives and economic return. Naw, it's all about attitude: Hobbyists make or loose a little money, but don't keep books. Sideliners know how much they make/loose, but don't care. Commercial beekeepers make/loose the largest amount of money, and blame any losses on imports. (In the USA, they blame both the imports and the National Honey Board.) Such anger causes many of them to break out in hives, which explains the larger number of hives in a commercial operation. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:46:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Radio Show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I suggest keeping recipes quick and simple to introduce people to honey cookery; otherwise they won't bother to try. How about bananas mashed up with honey and cream and given 10 seconds in the microwave. Or halved plums or pears with honey and cream, again given the 10 secs. Or a coating of honey (with or without spices) on ham or pork as it goes into the oven. All measurements are by the dollop, which Dave Cushman will convert to metric for you. Are you going to Gormanston again this year? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Radio show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: >My wife is compiling some honey recipes on our website, but I would be >very gratefull for some input that some of the rest of you have had dealing > > > I participated in a local garden radio show. You will find that even though it is a food show, you will get around to the "plight of bees" and "the mite". It will be an excellent opportunity to speak about the problems facing beekeepers as well as pollination and its impact on what we eat and the "lack of bees" seen in the area and how they help local vegetable gardens. Also how many orchards now have to have pollination services. You can also talk about the various flavors that honey has (bring in a light and dark and let the host sample them) as well as color and smell (such as minty smell of basswood honey). The kinds of honey used commercially as well as in the kitchen. You will find that there is a welcome audience for all the information you have about bees and honey. Have fun. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:46:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Dadant plus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there. Does anyone on the list have any experience with a frame format called "Dadant plus"? It's a huge frame that fits into TWO medium boxes. I suppose the idea is to have run a beekeeping operation on medium boxes only but still be able to have a brood box with only ten frames. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron said: > I believe a super bee is the Holy Grail in beekeeping. And just like the Holy Grail, it may never be found, even if it does exist. A long shot taken from atop a very shaky tower of complete speculation. In the highly unlikely event a "Grail" were found, the Grail would not hold water. Not for long, anyway. Anything claimed to be a "Super Bee" would be brought to its tiny little knees by the next "Kyptonite" disease or pest that is delivered to your doorstep courtesy of the World Trade Organization. Perhaps the Davos, Switzerland round (scheduled to end 01/28/03) will result in some tighter WTO "biosecurity protocols", which would be of more long-term practical help to beekeeping worldwide than any effort to try and play catch-up after the exotic pests and diseases invade. There is no single "fix" possible for so many different problems, so beekeepers need to watch Jackie Chan movies, and learn from him how to use "whatever is lying around" to defend against "whatever comes along". Beekeepers must also realize that Jackie Chan takes a beating in every movie, proving that no defense is perfect. > Sticking with the T-Mite discussion the past week or so, > some say it's a definite 10, problem's licked. Others have > said it's an 8 in the south but a 3 up north. Who's correct? All are. What we are seeing here is nothing but the end result of bee producers delivering "what the market wants", which is cheap queens and packages. As the chart mentioned by Allen in a prior post showed, some bee producers sell queens and packages that can be reasonably expected to be free of diseases and pests (perhaps even somewhat resistant), and others will include pests and/or diseases (at no extra charge!) in your packages. Forget asking where people are - ask where they get their stock. If beekeepers were willing to pay a little extra for "super bees", Sue Colby and her husband would still be in the queen and package business. They aren't. We have only ourselves to blame. > One of my goals at EAS last summer was to schedule as many honey > bee anatomy labs as possible. I wonder how many beekeepers went > home and looked at the tracheas in their own back yard. Well, we've yet to have a single question about "microscopes" since then, and I can't imagine that everyone who took the courses was both able to find a microscope at a price beekeepers would be willing to pay, and was able to use it with complete success. Perhaps they were scared off by the elegance of the very nice (stereo!) microscopes used at EAS. (Heck, I use a CHILD's microscope for bee post-mortems. I think even the lenses are plastic.) Anyway, what is so difficult about tossing a menthol pack on one's hives "just in case" when pulling the last supers? Is it too expensive for some people? Or are people afraid of creating "menthol-resistant tracheal mites"? :) I consider menthol to be one of the few medications I can use that has no "downside". The other is Fumagillin. Do I treat even hives that test "clean" with both of these? Sure I do. Cheap insurance. Keith Malone said: > So we have Wolf control so we can have more Moose to hunt. > Man becomes a part of nature. Gee, isn't "Wildlife Management" the ultimate oxymoron? Peter Borst said: > The future lies in better bees, not letting nature take her course. Nature is going to "take her course" no matter what we try. This is a good thing, since a monoculture of identical hybrid "super bees" would be just as much an Achilles' heel as monocultures of identical hybrids have proven to be in other segments of agriculture. Better bees - bah! Better beekeepers - hah! What we will always have is an essentially random mix of bees, beekeeping practices, pests, diseases, and vectors that can spread problems to any apiary. Therefore, the price of honey is eternal vigilance, nothing less. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:21:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim, Chris & all Chris said... > How about bananas mashed up with honey and cream and given 10 seconds in the > microwave. I recommend the same ingredients, but put in an ice cream maker! (it will take a little longer than 10 seconds) > All measurements are by the dollop, which Dave Cushman > will convert to metric for you. No problem in USA... The 'metric dollop' = one cup And Chris asked Tim... > Are you going to Gormanston again this year? I could not pass up the chance for an early plug, to give our American friends time to find out how inexpensive the air fare is to Ireland. The great beekeeping extravaganza that is the FIBKA Annual Summer School that takes place in Gormanston. Dates... Monday 21st July 2003 til Saturday 26th July 2003 It is inexpensive at 200 Euros, including meals and accomodation. In recent years we have met a number of our American friends, but there will be many from mainland Europe as well. I guess that there will be in the region of 300 beekeepers present, but there is too much to say in just a simple Email... Have a look at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanstonaims.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2000.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2001.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2003.html These pages give an indication of what goes on, but for details you can find them on the FIBKA website... http://www.irishbeekeeping.ie/Gormanston.html >From a personal point of view it is a fantastic get together and well worth the effort in attending. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Who's winning? In this discussion two ideas have been presented: breeding "better" bees, which of course we have been doing for millenia, and the idea of feral, or wild bees being better suited for survival. Obviously, mankind may have erred repeatedly when breeding for certain characteristics and losing others. Equally obvious is the idea that for most crops and livestock, we would not want to go back to the original, thousands of years ago. The original corn cob was about an inch long, the original dog was not something you want in your house, etc. The question is whether to move forward or back. I am sorry to spell it this way, but I don't see a way around it. In a recent Apidologie they describe the situation thusly: [It] could be that European and US commercial honey bee populations (those that have been protected by man from dying from V. destructor) arose from human selection over centuries. Factors selected include low defensiveness, low level of nestmate discrimination and, maybe as a side effect, lower resistance against parasitism. Thus, we hypothesize here that the bees usually classified as European (including those tested in our experiments, introduced from the Old World during the XXth century after selection by man) are mainly derived from anthropogenical selection. They are actually gentle, but also form compatible associations with parasites like V. destructor. On the contrary, feral bees, when they still exist (AHB [African Honey Bees] that we tested can be considered as such), though less gentle, would still have intact resistance abilities. pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Group purchasing William, from Florida, said "I usually treat(Bayer Strips @$3.00 ea.)" Wow. This is the second reference to these kind of prices that I have heard in the past few days. I know this is the 'retail' price for such strips, but only in small quantities of 10 to a pack. Why don't clubs pool resources and order in quantity to benefit members? 100 strips are commonly available for $2.00 each! It continually astounds me that (1) few hobbyists belong to bee clubs and (2) few hobbyists subscribe to one of the two national magazines dedicated to beekeeping. IMHO, failure to join a bee club and failure to subscribe to one of more of the magazines means that hobbyists are doomed to always pay the highest possible price and to suffer the highest possible losses. Penny-wise and pound-foolish. (How many know the origins of that saying? It really dates me!) Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:45:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Sorry, bad typing > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2002.html Is what I should have said... Tim, his son Adam and myself are on the first photo and Chris is on the second. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:55:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Group purchasing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William, from Florida, said "I usually treat(Bayer Strips @$3.00 ea.)" Lloyd said; Wow. This is the second reference to these kind of prices that I have heard in the past few days. I know this is the 'retail' price for such strips, but only in small quantities of 10 to a pack. Why don't clubs pool resources and order in quantity to benefit members? 100 strips are commonly available for $2.00 each! Reports at the ABF convention from Florida bee inspectors was that the varroa resistant to the Bayer strips was statewide. Even $2 a strip may be a waste of money. Doubling the amount of strips used is illegal (against label) and does not work with choumaphos resistant mites. Those beekeepers using the Bayer strips in other parts of the U.S. can go back to sleep BUT know coumaphos resistant mites will soon be in your area! At the ABF convention Florida beekeepers were deeply concerned about the coumaphos resistance mites. Many other beekeepers seemed disinterested. Hmmm. What is the *game plan* for those on the list relying at present on the Bayer strip? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Radio show Thanks to everyone who passed on info. There's a lot to digest. And yes, I plan on going to Gormanston if I can, it's quite the inspiration! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >introduced from the Old World during the XXth century after selection by man) >are mainly derived from anthropogenical selection. They are actually gentle, >but also form compatible associations with parasites like V. destructor. On >the contrary, feral bees, when they still exist (AHB [African Honey Bees] >that we tested can be considered as such), though less gentle, would still >have intact resistance abilities. > > > One fallacy in that argument is the introduction of a totally foreign pest/disease on the population. There can be no resistance if there was no pest/disease to cause the development of immunity or tolerance. A classic example is the meeting of Europeans and Native Americans. The diseases common to Europe decimated the NA, yet the NA would, from the above, be classified as having "intact resistance abilities". The analogy is not that far off, since the Varroa hosts had developed a tolerance for the mite, while the "domesticated" bees of Europe and the America's had not. Plus, the "domesticated" bees are showing resistance from selection by breeders in the US and possible "feral" survivors talked about in this list, so they also must have "intact resistance abilities". There was no need nor reason to breed European bees to tolerate Varroa since there was no Varroa. They are not a more susceptible bee because of breeding, since the feral populations in every country where Varroa has been introduced has collapsed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:01:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bee- L members: Aaron Said: "Growing queens is easy. Breeding and mating superior queens is at least an art". Aaron, you hit the nail on the head. AMEN....AMEN. The main difference between Open Mating and controlled mating is " How soon would you like to integrate desirable genes into the bee population and for how long you want to maintain this stock". Each system has desirable features and undesirable features. To get the best of both systems, Page and Laidlaw designed the closed breeding system (CBS). In this system, there are at least 25 families that are used for establishing a population. Thus, the majority of sex alleles and the heterogeneity will be maintained to reduce any inbreeding effects for about 25 years (If you want 50 years you establish 50 families). The CBS is maintained by isolation of mating. Within the population you can select for desirable traits (Hygienic, SMR, HBTracheal mite resistance, honey production, wintering,...etc. )to progressively improve the performance of bees while maintaining high brood viability over the life time of the program. There are few programs that used the CBS. One of them is the New World Carniolan by Sue Cobey. The honey production program in Alberta in the 1980's by Tibor Szabo used the CBS. Ontario breeding program in the 90's is following the same principles (Medhat Nasr), but we allowed introduction of new genes as described by Laidlow and Page in their original design. We also allowed several beekeepers cooperating to exchange genetics to maintain the families of the stock as done by Cobey and her California cooperator breeders. In Ontario, we tried to learn for previous experiences of those who used the CBS. The major problem with the CBS is the cost of running the program. It is expensive. Queen breeders using the CBS can't compete with the queen producers who sell queens for $5-10/queen. Having educated customer is the key to drive the breeding programs forward. Breeding is a Math and no longer based on gut's feeling. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: "Dadant Plus" frames Mats asked about the large frames used in Modified Dadant hives. Yes, these frames were specifically sized to also fit (depth-wise) into two Modified Dadant supers. I don't believe that any Modified Dadant equipment is still made commercially, although foundation and frames are still readily available (from Dadant). Moreover, thousands of the boxes still exist and are used every year. Some have said that this size is the best ever made (commercially) for honeybees. The difficulty was that when filled with honey the boxes were too heavy to lift! I started with this equipment, as when I bought my hives the beekeeper told me he was only willing to sell the hives because they were in non-standard equipment. As I recall, the boxes held 12, instead of 10 frames. Moreover, the boxes were 2" (5 cm) higher than the Langstroth, so the frames were also 2" higher. The width of the boxes (and frames) were the same as the Langstroth. So, with 11 frames (to leave room for manipulation), instead of 9, and each frame being 2" longer, the deeps weighed over 100 pounds each when filled. Wow. The supers were our standard 6 5/8th (16.83 cm), but wider by the two frames. Even they weighed about 65 pounds when filled! These were said to be the best for the bees, as the larger size accommodated more honey for winter storage as well as more egg laying space for the queen. In fact, our greatest comb honey producer, Killion, used only Modified Dadant brood chambers. He just used a board to block the space for two frames when he set the Langstroth supers on top. He credited the extra frames with substantially reducing swarming, by increasing the space available to the queen. A few years ago I was astounded to learn that these boxes are the 'standard' in France. However, they use a beekeeping system that involves only one brood box, so they rarely have to lift a full deep. For supers they use the 6 5/8th. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Freezing comb honey All comb honey MUST be frozen asap after taking it off the hive. Freezing kills wax moth eggs and larvae as well as SHB. Like Bob Harrison I freeze it in full supers...but I have the space. One can also freeze frames, and even cut and drained sections. It does not matter. Regardless, when freezing put it inside a plastic bag. The advantage of freezing full supers is that after 24 hours of being at 0 degrees, the supers can be removed from the freezer, and kept inside the bag for several days or a few weeks until one can find the time to process them. If freezing is delayed until the comb is cut, it must be cut within 3 days. Delay is guaranteed (sooner or later) to result in the comb being ruined by wax moth tracks. When the honey, inside the bag, is removed from the freezer it will take 18-24 hours to thaw. Until it does, moisture in the air will condense on the bag! After it is thawed, no more moisture will condense so it is safe to take it out of the bag. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Who's winning? quote: There was no need nor reason to breed European bees to tolerate Varroa since there was no Varroa. They are not a more susceptible bee because of breeding, since the feral populations in every country where Varroa has been introduced has collapsed. response: The point of the article was to establish the distinction between bees that can live with varroa and those that succumb. The authors claim (and I neither agree nor disagree) that European bees succumb due (perhaps) to being overly domesticated and African bees do not, being essentially a wilder sub-species -- not domesticated at all. The authors call the US and Euro bees domesticated and the African bees feral. I agree with this: I don't believe the so-called feral bees in the neighborhood of commercial beekeepers are feral at all, merely escaped. The real feral bees are the Africans; they are much more vigourous and also, more hostile. It matters little really whether European bees are in fact domesticated or if it's that they were tractable which led to beekeeping in the first place. The history of keeping bees in Europe is very old, unlike Africa. Bees and people seem to have always gotten along in Europe and most of Asia. But the main point is this: these Africans seem to be much more vigorous. So if you are looking ONLY for a healthy, vigorous bee, they might be the ticket. If you are looking for a manageable one, you might have to accept that such a bee needs to be helped (read: miticides). This is not different from what we face as people. We need vaccinations, antibiotics, etc. to survive. No one I know would suggest that the people who cannot fend for themselves without these aids should be left to die out. The thing we want, the thing we need, is a bee that has the ability to take care of itself as well as the Africans appear to do. Personally, I wouldn't care to have a bee that is vicious as well, but some people have learned to live with them. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:57:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been thinking about this a while now and I have come to my conclusion. The answer is "42". Nope, just kidding. Partly, anyhow. Just as asking about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, the question we are asking ourselves is non-specific and undefined and even, like the example, recursive. Although comparisons are said to be 'odious', I've come to the conclusion that bees can be compared to dogs in the sense that there are bred dogs and feral dogs. There are special purpose dogs, there are mutts, there are wild 'dogs' and everything in between. These various dog types can be found concentrated in specific areas or scattered widely. Some take care of themselves and some are pampered. Which dog is winning? Which one are *you* betting on? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Who's winning? Allen Pretty good comparison, in my book. In fact, I would have sided with the mutts until I acquired a pure-bred yellow lab. This dog is smarter, friendlier, prettier, etc. than any dog I have ever had. Unfortunately she is now deaf, covered with tumors and can hardly walk. I am sure a mutt would be in much better shape at her age, which brings us back to what is important? Health, management, good looks, you pick. Perhaps the dog is not such a good comparison. A dog can be a pet as well as a work animal. Bees don't make that good of a pet, though I am sure to get some argument there. But like pets, we want them to know us, or at least not hate us. If we were raising rattlesnakes, if might be a different story. There you know you are dealing with trouble 24/7. With bees, there are times when we get along as well as we do with our pet dog. That would no doubt all change if we were to adopt a highly aggressive bee which might be very healthy but require constant smoking, special clothing, and you could never be rough with them. I don't necessarily mean the African Bee either. I have seen strains of bees isolated by beekeepers that they claimed were better producers, healthier, etc. and they were also mean. Myabe these traits are linked ... PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:58:07 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Freezing comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd wrote > All comb honey MUST be frozen asap after taking it off the hive. Freezing > kills wax moth eggs and larvae as well as SHB. (snip) > The advantage of freezing full supers is that after 24 hours of being at 0 > degrees, the supers can be removed from the freezer, and kept inside the bag > for several days or a few weeks until one can find the time to process them. With my searching of all the literature I could find, I only found one reference to using -12 degrees centigrade for 24 hours to kill all stages of the small hive beetle (SHB). Is the 0 degrees in centigrade or fahrenheit? In Australia we will shortly be undertaking some research to see if higher temperatures will kill all stages of the SHB. With wax moth there are different temperature/time relationships so one would expect that this should be the same for SHB. However we will have to wait and see. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:02:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have seen strains of > bees isolated by beekeepers that they claimed were better producers, > healthier, etc. and they were also mean. Myabe these traits are > linked ... Smarter people than I claim they are not linked, but in my experience these characteristics generally go hand in hand. Or is it just that I can't help but notice the agressive ones? allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:28:05 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Who's winning? Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen expanding the field asked: Which dog is winning? I refer back to the original question: Who is winning the race? - the "beasties" or the researchers trying to develop what we require. I wished for some indication on what individuals thought about the progress being made by researchers in supposedly supplying us with bees that can cope with present day conditions. Is getting a bee strain that is capable of dealing with Varroa but little else, any use? Is getting a bee strain that is capable of dealing with Res. AFB but little else, any use? Programs appear to be giving rise to strains that are generally "mono competent" These then being released as good types. Maybe they are in their selected domain - but the average environment is not pressured by one or two problems only! We appear to need bees and fast, that are capable, i.e. all packed into one tiny body type, of dealing with the many "actually present" ills. Are they not arriving onto the market because: 1.We are not far enough down the selection process? 2.The present day set up in the research establishments does not allow for development of companion sets of gene selection? 3.Is it realised that the final product cost would likely as not be supported by the industry? 4.It would impinge on individual pet subjects and research areas if a mega team started trying to collect all in one bee type? I suggest that if we continue as we are, then the beasties will inflict a lot of damage over a long period of time - but with the support of man, bees will possibly hold the edge! Researchers are attempting some of the individual items that we require - but not getting the items that result together in one product. Often cited as the way to go is Integrated Pest Management - viewed as difficult, costly and in some circumstances as things stand not a real alternative. How about trying Integrated Bee Production? I'm ust following current advice about asking questions about what we are being supplied with! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:03:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Foundation for Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd and all, I'm planning on using Ross Rounds this year, but have a few questions about the foundation I'm going to use. I'm sure I can purchase foundation for this, but was thinking of making thin sheets of wax and cookie cutting pieces for the rounds. Will the bees draw out suitable comb if the cell imprint is missing? I can put the imprint on with a piece of plastic foundation while it's warm of need be. Was also wondering about just pouring a little melted wax in the round to cover the bottom, then imprinting the pattern while the wax is still warm, if imprints are necessary. Will the rounds withstand the heat of the hot wax? Thanks West Texas Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:45:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal - Free download In-Reply-To: <200301270500.h0R44VpY011186@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Indiana State Beekeepers Association publishes the ISBA journal every other month. The new edition is available at this link http://www.hoosierbuzz.com/document/i0302.pdf As publisher and editor, I'm always looking for color photographs to go on the cover, and on our annual calendar. (We can't pay but we give full credit). For information, e-mail me at editor@hoosierbuzz.com ccrb - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:29:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not only am I "honored" for you to say "sounding like George"; but more important is the fact that what you have said about the difference between "breeders" and "producers" is S-O T-R-U-E, and so IGNORED by most! George ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:40:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Who's winning? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, KEEP TALKING! Marla needs all the help she can get to prevent bee producers to quit procrastinating about their product; and competent BREEDERS need help to convince buyers that their higher prices are necessary to produce a decent queen rather than just a dud. As you know, I have just about run out of my "talking" days. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Foundation for Ross Rounds In-Reply-To: <009501c2c658$52f1df80$2e81c641@me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:03 PM 1/27/2003 -0600, you wrote: > Will the bees draw out suitable comb if the cell >imprint is missing? I've never found the bees are willing to do this. Hence the problem duragilt foundation. Just wax coating a stripped area of the plastic isn't enough for the bees to want to build it out. >I can put the imprint on with a piece of plastic >foundation while it's warm of need be. It's easy enough to test a ring to see if it will hold up to the heat. Even if it does, how thin can you produce a sheet of wax. For comb honey you want it to be very, very thin. And pressing a pattern into this thin foundation can be very problematic. If you are looking at saving money on foundation why not try using just a strip of foundation (about an inch) and let the bees build it out. I haven't tried this myself, but have been told by others that it works. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:59:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been buying samples of various local honeys for the past several years depending on where I am at. Its my souvenir of the area. I bring them home, and pour some in these little hex bottles I have, remove the label when I can and put them on the hex jars and then I have sort of a collection all in the same jars. I can look at colors etc. We usually eat the remainder. I recently bought some local honey that tastes a lot like molasses. Now I have looked in Pellet and sorghum is not listed as a nectar source. Any ideas on what might give it this flavor. I have considered that it might be mislabeled but I don't think so. Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoon Subject: Re: Honey flavors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim, My sumac honey, abundant around at the end of June here in Oklahoma, does taste like strong molasses albeit the honey is more pungent, full-bodied [like red wine], with a strong after flavor. When the sunlight shines through the bottle, the dark color changes to a magnificent “orange red.” Hence I named them, “Rising Sun.” Some love it, so do I, but others prefer the common light honey, having been acclimatized only the store- bought variety. I hear the sumac honey *alone* is light-green, but it is the abundant sumac pollen, when mixed with the honey in the centrifuge, that brings out the mad red-orange hue. [In fact, the sumac seeds appear red] But then, Tim, since I do not know where you are located, the honey could have, just as well, come from some other sources, of which I do not know diddly squat. Yoon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: freezing Trevor asked if my reference of 0 degrees was to F or C? I should have known better than to not reference the English or Metric system... My reference was to F. The equivalent of -18 C. Here in this part of the world we are now entering our third week of daytime temperatures from -18 C to -12 C and nights from -15 C to -30 C. Bees have not had flight since November 15! Who would have thought that the upstart Americans would be the last bastion of the English measurements? I will probably never be comfortable with millimeters, centimeters, and Celsius, and am the poorer for it. But the world will lose something when such archaic terms as bushel, peck, and quart are lost, together with our tribal memories of the days when such terms were important to everyday life. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Who's winning? quote: Often cited as the way to go is Integrated Pest Management - viewed as difficult, costly and in some circumstances as things stand not a real alternative. How about trying Integrated Bee Production? reply: Integrated Pest Management is not difficult, costly, nor not a real alternative. It is the only rational way to deal with pests and is adopted by all pest control educators and regulators. It involves using a hierarchy of controls starting with mechanical (cleanliness), cultural (practices), biological (BT), and pesticides *as needed*. If pesticides are not needed, they aren't used. This contrasts with the old school of spray first, ask questions later. That method is not cost effective, creates problems, and is plain dumb. Every bee breeder is fully aware that a commercially viable honey bee must have a full range of desirable traits. A bee that doesn't get sick -- but won't work -- is useless. Anyone who has talked to Dave DeJong knows that the South Americans are generally satisfied with the bee that they have got. In fact, there is very little talk of requeening, since the bees generally take care of themselves. Africanized bees are pretty hard to requeen in any case. Maybe we will all use this bee eventually. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:25:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: comb foundation for Ross Rounds The comb foundation made by both Dadant and Kelley is excellent. Catalog numbers F31..., and 131, respectively. Both run 28 sheets a pound, or better. (We are fortunate to have this, in other countries the best that is available is usually 18 sheets a pound. In the US this is principally used only for cut-comb. Use of this relatively thick foundation is part of the reason that all types of section comb, including Ross Rounds, are superior to cut-comb.) This foundation is real tricky to make. The imprint is made as the wax moves through two opposing metal rolls. If the metal rolls touch, they are largely ruined and must be retooled. 28 sheets a pound means that most of the time the rolls are so close it is scary. This leads to slow production, and high costs for the foundation. Inside Ross Round frames, I have successfully used 1/2 sheets with no difficulties. The bees made perfect round sections and it was impossible to tell which half had foundation and which not. One year I tried 1/3rd sheets with considerably less success. I'd say my rejects doubled compared with normal. This could have been due to factors other than the more narrow than normal foundation. While the 1/2 sheets were successful, I have not continued to use them, and I do not know of any large producer who does so. Frankly, cutting the sheets is reasonably time consuming. Moreover, the very thin full sheets are a little tricky to handle, and 1/2 sheets are still more tricky. This adds up to additional labor which does not seem worthwhile compared to the cost savings. Depending on the quantities purchased, and whether you are supplying capping wax and getting a 'working rate', a single sheet of foundation will cost from $.25 to $.15. If you try cutting foundation in half, there is a good chance you will decide 'it ain't worth it'. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:27:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: inverted sugar In-Reply-To: <01C2C54A.1CEE8280.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: > Bee saliva supplies any and all enzymes required to break down any/all sucrose, exactly as is done in your own body.[...] > In fact, heat alone (such as when you > heat the water before you add > the sugar when making sugar syrup) will break > down a sizeable fraction of > the sucrose to glucose and fructose. Those two sentences let me think that acide sucrose inversion or enzymatic inversion were equivalent. But I read (H. Guerriat, 2000) [my free translation]: "enzymatic sucrose inversion by bees is totaly harmless for them while sucrose inversion in an acid medium leads to HMF by-products that are toxic for bees". > it is NOT true that breaking down sucrose > into glucose and fructose takes > any "effort" at all. Therefore, it is not true that > feeding glucose and fructose, rather > than sucrose, is any "better for the bees" than > feeding pure sucrose. It may be true but have you sone studies to support this affirmation? H. Guerriat explains the inverted sugar use because of the it could lower bees work(but it is just an hypothesis. I read in his book (p. 304)[my free translation]:" sucrose invertion by bees requieres invertase production. That enzym is a protein whose important production by bees requieres a huge physiologic effort. Such effort could not be indicated before wintering". But in the next paragraph H. Guerriat describes an experimentaion showing that bees chose sucrose solution instead of inverted sugar when both are offered to them. R. zimmer writes that solid sugar break down by bees could lead to reduce bees fat reserves. > I have no idea what would result from feeding sugar > syrup with a high concentration of invertase > due to an incomplete invertase reaction, but it sure > is not something that bees are used to finding > in nectar. H. Guerriat also writes that bees, in a lab expriment, have shorter life when feed with inverted sugar. The same affirmation is written by R.Zimmer in "L'abeille buckfast en question(s)". He explains than queens have shorter life when candi is often used. References: H. Guerriat - Être performant en apiculture - 2000 R. Zimmer - L'abeille Buckfast en question(s) - 1999 Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:33:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey flavors Hi When you say molasses flavor I immediately think of avocado honey. We used to get a certain amount of it in San Diego county. I liked putting bees in avocado groves because of the free avocadoes, but the not the honey. Nobody seemed to like it. It really spoils orange blossom. I always preferred eucalyptus, which was our main honey source in coastal San Diego. Some euc honey tastes like butterscotch. Around Point Loma people get 300 pound averages. pb