From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:40:02 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ALL_NATURAL, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A56484B9 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKl7012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:40:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:40:02 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0302C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 174815 Lines: 3836 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:09:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/02/03 05:03:30 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << However, so far no one has told me that the U.K. or EU will accept packages (swarms, colonies) of bees from the U.S. Only queens. >> It is not the usual practice in the UK to use package bees at all. Demand would be minimal. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:09:07 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking about Jerry's request for information on where the USA sends live bees to, I know that we in Australia have been quoted that they go to France and the Middle East. Probably one way to find out is to check with whoever in the USA issues the certification. I am sure they would have generic information on where the live bees have been shipped without revealing who it was. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White said: > Interesting Jerry since some MN hygienic queens were shipped from > the University of MN to France last late summer/fall. Wouldn't the current US/France situation (getting very close to that golden oldie, "Omnis Gallia delenda est ") tend to make such exports more difficult on the US end? Come to think of it, bees are "weapons of mass production". Why would the US allow exports of "high-tech" bees at all? What with everything from roses to seeds being patented, why are new lines of bees not being viewed as agricultural technology worthy of treatment as "intellectual property", perhaps even "strategic assets"? Jerry said: > So far, it seems that despite the sweeping statement that I found, queens > may be allowed into these countries from the U.S. and other areas, with > appropriate inspections, certificates, etc. > However, so far no one has told me that the U.K. or EU will accept packages > (swarms, colonies) of bees from the U.S. Only queens. And the UK has a very well-thought out port-of-entry inspection program for all imported queens, one that should be a model for everyone else. I'm not sure anyone has a robust program that would address packages, and I still await enlightenment from anyone with a promising port-of-entry testing approach. But the punch line (and there is always a punch-line) can be found here: http://www.bee-craft.com/advertising_rates.htm "Bee Craft Ltd [The UK's major magazine for beekeepers] follows the policy set down by the British Beekeepers Association and does not accept advertisements for Queens, nuclei stocks or package bees bred outside the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland." They also require each advertiser of bees to sign a declaration confirming compliance with the policy. No US publication could ever take such a stance, since it would result in instant "restraint of trade" lawsuits, and perhaps even claims of (all together now, in harmony, please) "non-technical barriers to trade". But I'm not surprised that the same authorities who would prohibit or frustrate the importation of bees in most cases would make exceptions for the latest developments in queen-breeding R&D. If US institutions can be conned into sending abroad the final products of difficult, expensive, and time-consuming work at no charge or minimal charge, who WOULDN'T want some of those bees? The following may ruffle some feathers, but I hope we can keep discussion of this issue hypothetical rather than antithetical. Why do US taxpayer-funded institutions send "technology" to countries who return the favor by using that technology (those bees) to: a) Compete with US honey producers, in both international markets and in the US itself b) Develop highly similar lines of "production" queens rather than buying US bees c) While holding positions that only speed the downward spiral of US beekeeping All US beekeepers pay taxes to fund the research that created the desirable bees. Some even make donations to research funds on top of their taxes. Do any of these countries that want advanced bees ever contribute funding that helps to do the research work and field testing? Does anyone realize that there is still a (small) chance that all but a handful of bee researchers and scientists in the employ of the USDA will not even have jobs next fiscal quarter? The current high honey prices were, in part, created at the expense of the Chinese honey exporters, and while I do not like to think of anything as a "zero-sum game" with a looser for every winner, I am sure that US beekeepers would agree that legislation to restrict exports of US beekeeping "technology" would be a cheaper and more elegant solution to competition from low-wage countries than yet another "anti-dumping suit". Just about the only effective way to compete with low-wage competitors is to develop and use technology that reduces the labor component of one's own product. Disease and mite resistant bees directly result in lower costs per pound of honey. ...and back on Feb 7th 2003, Allen Dick said: > As it happens, CFIA is the very regulatory agency that bans Canadian > beekeepers from obtaining imports of US queens -- including the very bee > strain (Russian) that promises to reduce our concern about mites. Fear > of mites are the reason we closed the border. Go figure. > The import of US Primorsky queens in volume would reduce or eliminate > our need to use miticide chemicals (which CFIA also tests for). We > cannot (legally) buy US queens even under proposed extremely rigid > protocols, and even from regions of the US that are not known or > suspected to have any of the usual pest suspects. > This total ban on legitimate, inspected queen imports has -- naturally > enough -- led to smuggling. There's a good example... Canada would be well served by treating bees in the same manner they treat potential immigrants, within minimum standards for "immigration" that only allow "desirables" in. But would anyone in the US be dumb enough to willingly offer Canada even a single Primorsky queen without a prerequisite that Canada drop or extensively modify what is rapidly becoming a less and less defendable stance on imports of US queens and packages in general? And what kind of a person sells 100 queens to a smuggler when respecting Canadian law would force the issue, and would allow the same person to sell perhaps 1,000 queens with a clear conscience? And would there even be a significant live bee export/import "market" if not for Canada? jim Ice storm in Virginia (!!) The battery banks are 100%, and the generator has a fancy new 1/2 cycle cut-in relay, but I still got an oil lamp out of the pantry... :) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Maple bloom is feeding time! The Old Drone's wisdom and knowledge is so true; the bloom of the maple is indeed the big kickoff of spring. And, the end of the maple bloom very often does bring about a period of nectar dearth unless the weather is kind with warm sunny days bringing forth a continuation from the maple bloom to the main honey flow. But sadly, often there is a period of nectar dearth at the end of the maple bloom; and, at times strong healthy hives will die from overextending themselves raising their brood. There are also periods of nectar dearth during the maple bloom caused by weather that is just as devastating to the colony and the beekeeper. February, March and April bring shorter nights and longer days of gradually increasing temperatures leading to shirtsleeve weather followed by long periods of cold or cool, inclement and unsettled weather. The influx of stores and activity generated by several days of increased temperatures with good flying will stimulate a crescendo of laying by the queen. During this time over most of eastern North America if not the entire Northern Hemisphere the natural progression of weather is a Cold front followed by High Pressure followed by a Cold front. The High-pressure area first brings cold dry air from the north followed by warm southerly winds as the center of the High drifts east. Days become warmer with more southerly winds until again a Cold front approaches which likely brings precipitation in the form of rain, ice, sleet, or snow, and cold overcast weather. Often the weather will keep bees from flying for as much as a week or longer. If the weather keeps the bees from flying then great reserves of pollen, nectar, and honey will be consumed in order to feed brood and heat the increased area of comb covered by the brood. In just a few days what was once a heavy hive will be light. Knowing just how much stores are in your hives is of utmost importance. A strong hive that is raising brood can consume five or more pounds of honey in a day; that's 35 pounds or more in a week! That's why it might be best to check your hives for weight at least once a week or more often in times of cold and unsettled weather after the red maple has begun to bloom. The Bee-List archives, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l and Allen Dick's website, http://www.honeybeeworld.com both have extensive information on the supplemental feeding of honeybees. IMHO feeding inside the hive is the most efficient and prudent method of supplemental feeding. Food needs to be in close proximity to the cluster in order for the bees to use it; syrup or dry pollen substitute placed outside the hive but within the beeyard will instill robbing. When syrup or dry pollen substitute is placed in a feeding station farther than about 100 meters from the yard bees will treat the feeding station as a natural food source and be less inclined to rob other hives within an apiary; however, more energy is expended in retrieving these stores than if they were placed within the hive. The feeding station is open to feral hives as well which not only can lead to transfer of disease, but further reduce the efficiency of feeding. I was not able to read Mr. Green's posting until I had returned home from a daytrip the following day to Smithfield, North Carolina, about 135 miles or so as the crow flies north from his home in the midlands of the Coastal Plain of South Carolina. While in Smithfield I had searched judiciously for the maple bloom, only when I had traveled down the road some 40 miles south to my alma mater in a little place called Buie's Creek did I observe just a very few blossoms unfolded only upon one branch of many maple trees. Spring is slow to come to the Carolinas this year, I hope that my own bees and yours are doing ok. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC (Where it is 22 degrees on a Sunday afternoon with sleet and freezing rain) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Maple bloom is feeding time! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Norton wrote: > The Old Drone's wisdom and knowledge is so true; the bloom of the maple is > indeed the big kickoff of spring. And, the end of the maple bloom very > often does bring about a period of nectar dearth unless the weather is kind > with warm sunny days bringing forth a continuation from the maple bloom to > the main honey flow. But sadly, often there is a period of nectar dearth at > the end of the maple bloom; and, at times strong healthy hives will die > from overextending themselves raising their brood. There are also periods > of nectar dearth during the maple bloom caused by weather that is just as > devastating to the colony and the beekeeper. I have found that it is weather more than anything else, if you let the bees build up a good winter honey supply. If a sudden cold snap hits the bees will cluster over the brood and starve in a matter of days, even though there are plenty of stores only a few inches from the cluster. They have the worst of all possible worlds: cold which needs to be combated by expenditure of energy and instinct keeping them with the brood so they cannot get to their stores. This does not happen often and is easily corrected by placing sugar candy directly over the cluster well in advance of any expected cold. Have not lost a hive since I used candy, which I do every spring. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:15:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Pollination practice(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was chatting with a fellow after Church today and was informed that people around here recognize the need for pollination, but refuse to pay for it. At least the beekeepers he knew of were doing it for "free" claiming the honey produced as the payment. Now I understand one can get reasonable amount of honey off of cotton--though I have heard mixed results concerning the flavor. However many other veggies that need pollinators give lousy returns on honey. How do you go about getting paid for you services in pollination? How do you convince others not to give away the store and to band together and demand reasonable payment? I would greatly be appreciative of any information anyone has on this whole subject. Thanks Tim Morris South Central Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:16:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA Organization: ARC PLANT PROTECTION Subject: Live imports to South Africa In-Reply-To: <200302150501.h1F4wllo028500@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear All No live-bee importations to South Africa are allowed, and have not been allowed for about 40 years. The only exceptions that I am aware of are transshipments (by air) of colonies of bees through South Africa to other African countries. Of course, we are only talking of legal importations here! I also suspect that the importation of European bees is allowed in a number of other African countries. regards Mike Allsopp, Stellenbosch :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Pollination practice(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very touchy subject! Some of the old time beekeepers call pollination a dirty word. They blame it for the disease problems and infestations, hands down. Also moving the hive kills bees and reaks havoc inside a hive. Left to their own, bees can find their own food. Id not waste the gas to artifically pollinate with my bees. What little Ive found out, says moving them cuts down on the amount of honey produced because of the stress. This too falls into the personal experience catagory (I have none as yet). I am considering doing an apple orchard this year but surely not for free. The flip side is I also plan to use a pear orchard as a location to split to. Here I will be the benifactor and they dont harvest the pears. (I plan to get some). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:58:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Pollination practice(s) In-Reply-To: <20.a538b8c.2b819fa5@aol.com> From: Tim Morris > I was chatting with a fellow after Church today and was informed that > people around here recognize the need for pollination, but refuse to pay > for it. At least the beekeepers he knew of were doing it for "free" > claiming the honey produced as the payment. It's pretty much driven by local conditions and markets. In south Florida, for example, for winter veggies, tangelos, etc, it's done cheap to free, because there are beekeepers looking for wintering locations (done that myself...) Here in South Carolina, we do mostly vine crops. Cukes, squash and watermelon yield negligible nectar, so no one would hang around here if they weren't paid. Drip irrigated cantaloupes will make a shallow super of dark, but nice-flavored honey, which is better than nothing, if your bees are stuck here anyway. The farmers know that when the weather gets hot, the bees mostly go to the mountains or north, so there won't be any bees for pollination unless they pay for them. Rates run around $40 - 45. One point you might make in discussions with farmers, is that beekeepers might stock hives at a certain rate for honey production, but this is nowhere near enough for optimum pollination. Read Harry Whitcomb's "Bees are My Business" for a good explanation of how the principle came to be understood. You can run an online search of the used book market to find a copy if you don't have one. It's long out of print, but I recently bought one for $8 plus shipping. Another point is that many growers, and even many beekeepers do not realize that pollination is cumulative, until all the seeds are fertilized. We are guilty of very fuzzy thinking when we talk of fruit being "set," because that fruit may still be junk, if it's only partly pollinated. They may have gotten enough seeds fertilized so the apple will hang on the tree til harvest, but not enough to get on the fancy fruit counter, where the profits are made. A few more bees visits to deliver a few more grains of pollen, would have made a major difference. Check out the pollination page for more on this, if you don't understand. Growers need to understand that good pollination does more than make fruit; it is essential for QUALITY fruit. Small growers may not ever get in on the game, but lack of pollination is one reason the small growers are going out. Big growers use bees much better. If you don't have any big veggie or fruit growers in the area, you might not ever have a pollination market. Twenty years ago we had at least 60 cucumber growers in this area. Now we are down to about a dozen, with three of them accounting for the majority of the acreage. Small growers have gone out, in part, because they brought a lot of poorly pollinated knots and curls to the cucmber shed, and these got sorted out into the waste bins. (Labor problems are the other main reason. When the kids and grandkids refused to pick cukes anymore, the small growers weren't able to pick up migrant help, like the big growers.) I'm curious as to another question. With the price of honey up, are there very many beekeepers doing pollination who will abandon their customers, to go after bigger honey crops? Pollination customers essentially compete with honey production for beekeepers attention. If a lot of beekeepers bail out of pollination, this could create a domino effect on some growers who are already in a shaky position (same story as beekeepers have long dealt with - cheap imports taking their markets). When the price of honey drops (as it inevitably must) and beekeepers go back for pollination, will the growers be there? I guess what I'm saying is that the sudden spike in honey price may overly inflence the pollination market to our long-term detriment. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: GM canola Comments: cc: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On Thursday, a Saskatchewan canola grower, farmer #1, is speaking at a local grange hall in Bridport, Vermont. He has been growing canola for many years. He saves his seed for planting each year. His neighbor, farmer #2 planted canola seed from Monsanto...a gene modified variety. Well, the story goes....honeybees cross pollinated the two crops. Monsanto sued farmer #1 for theft of their patented variety. Farmer #1 lost in lower court. The case is now headed for the Canadian Supreme Court. Have I got the facts correct? Does anyone else find this as scary as I do. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I read: >Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests > >The results of tests conducted throughout the world show an average 90% >efficacy rate. In France successful clinical tests have been undertaken by >the AFSSA at Sophia-Antipolis. Practical tests have been carried out by a >large number of beekeepers from all regions and climatic zones in France. >Their conclusions have on the one hand served to confirm the efficacy of >the product (93% on average), and on the other to adapt and determine the >conditions required to use the treatment. I wrote twice to the manufacturers to get copies of the "tests" but they did not reply. Has anyone else seen reports of these tests? I have been told that no new Section 18 exemptions can be issued in states where coumaphos is still effective. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:11:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Plant patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael reported a difficult situation. By no means do I want to defend Monsanto, but in most countries, if one fails to defend a patent, it is considered abandoned and thus lost. Besides, a ruling in favor of Monsanto does not tell the entire story. Was this action truly innocent and accidental? If so, it would not surprise me if no monetary damages were sought (but there may have been legal fees for the defense). On the other hand, there have been several apparently huge instances of farmers planting hundreds of pounds of seed collected from fields where 'Monsanto' canola was planted...without reporting or paying a fee. It doesn't seem that these instances were 'innocent' or 'accidental'. It is a property rights issue... Lloyd :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:37:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Kids and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all - I am working with a local high school ag teacher to develop a short unit on honey bees as an agricultural pursuit. Rather than totally reinventing the wheel, I thought I would see if someone had already developed similar materials. Among other things, we plan to do history and biology of the bee We are going to develop a "Monopoly-type game" where the goal is to make money as a beekeeper and hope to run two hives with the goal of selling the honey, etc. next fall. Any leads for me? Reply directly to me if you think it is inappropriate for the whole list. Larry Krengel lkrengel@mc.net Marengo, Illinois USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: SanFran Chronicle - pollination article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's an interesting article in the SanFran Chronicle this morning "California Cultures - Nuts and Honey" concerning almond pollination & positions on Chinese honey imports/U.S. almond exports: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/17 /ED94371.DTL And if you'd like to add your 2 cents to the Aurora, CO Sentinel article - read the news on Tom Patterson's fight with the city to keep his bees: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7030971&BRD=1947&PAG=461&dept_id=1 68657&rfi=8 Matthew Westall - E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:57:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Pollination practice(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: I'm curious as to another question. With the price of honey up, are there very many beekeepers doing pollination who will abandon their customers, to go after bigger honey crops? You can divide most larger beekeepers doing pollination into two groups in the U.S.. 1. those which only want to do pollination and to those honey production is a problem. 2. those which are honey producers and pollinate a couple crops a year at times when major honey production is not going on.. I doubt you will see little change in the second catagory but you will probabbly see change in the first catagory. Many beekeepers in the first catagory I have talked to say by the time they gear up for large scale honey production they expect honey prices will be back to normal (below cost of production prices) so they plan on doing pollination. A few which have got enough supers and a large enough extracting plant PLUS the labor to run things say they are dropping pollination of crops such as Dave spoke of which conflict with honey production. Dave said: If a lot of beekeepers bail out of pollination, this could create a domino effect on some growers who are already in a shaky position (same story as beekeepers have long dealt with - cheap imports taking their markets). When the price of honey drops (as it inevitably must) and beekeepers go back for pollination, will the growers be there? Smart growers are willing to pay top dollar for strong hives of bees. Those growers of crops which conflict with major honey flows need to decide how important pollination is to their operation and did deeper and offer higher pollination fees to keep the bees pollinating. Times change and those growers which do not change with the times are doomed to failure. Those growers reading my post and growing crops conflicting with the major honey flow need to get the books out and figure out the amount of money you can spend on pollination (be honest) and work things out with your beekeeper IF he says he will not be able to pollinate because of making a higher profit with honey production. Is your beekeeper not being honest with you? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Plant patent dispute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This topic has been under discussion by a large number of agriculture groups in the past several years. The incident referred to ... Incidental pollination...has been studied, and debated much in the press. One group, CropChoice, has followed this in detail, and has some pretty stong views on the subject. They also have documented the pros, and cons of pursuing this legally. For an indepth, though admittedly somewhat biased history of this subject, take a look at the press release history of the group at http://www.cropchoice.com/pastheads.asp?sort=keyword Monsanto has been aggressive in defending this patent...and the courts, at least in Canada, seem to initially defend the patents in spite of evidence that would seem to argue otherwise. I don't think the final decisions have been made yet, but owning a patent (and controlling its distribution) on the genetic makeup of a plant, or animal, is still not a black and white issue. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: GM canola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Michael Palmer asked if he had his facts straight; "Monsanto sued farmer #1 for theft of their patented variety." And concluded with, "Does anyone else find this as scary as I do?" Lloyd Spear responded, "It is a property rights issue..." I don't care much about the property tights issues, money is cheap. What I find "really scary" about this is Monsanto's concern that their property rights have been transferred to a variety of canola to which they have no claim. One side of the GM coin is the claim that genetically modified organisms are stable and cannot readily be transferred laterally. Yet Monsanto has successfully (so far) made a case that their "rights" are protected when transferred laterally. Is it is or is it ain't? Aaron Morris - thinking Pandora's box is wide open! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: GM canola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer said: > Have I got the facts correct? The link below appears to be a fair summary of the suit, and it is important to note that much less was "proven" than was alleged by Monsanto: http://www.percyschmeiser.com/crime.htm You can read the farmer's side of the story at his website. (Everyone seems to have a website these days...) http://www.percyschmeiser.com/ You can find news articles and other summaries with a Google search string that would include, for example: "Saskatchewan canola Monsanto court" ...which yields 2,100 hits or so. It is puzzling that the farmer's lawyer did not prevail on the grounds that Monsanto's "proprietary genetics" were, in net, a form of "pollution", and something that harmed the farmer's crop, creating a tangible liability for Monsanto. Was this view even offered? I dunno. To take matters to extremes, it appears that this ruling would allow Monsanto to fly an airplane around, dropping their "Round-Up Ready" seeds on every farm in Saskatchewan, and then make similar demands for "technology fees" from every farmer in the province. As the judge said: "...the source of the Roundup resistant canola...is really not significant for the resolution of the issue of infringement..." ...which brings new meaning to the term "planted evidence". :) Now, if Monsanto had filed an "in rem" action against the "infringing land" solely to obtain the right to take possession of or destroy their (polluting) "property", I think that we would have a much more rational situation. The judge's statement would be fair if applied to a request by Monsanto for relief limited to removing the infringement at Monsanto's sole expense. But to make the farmer a party to the action is weird. I wonder if his lawyer even thought to file a "motion to sever"? Here's a good test - somebody in Saskatchewan should place a single beehive with no identification markings in a field known to be planted with "Round-Up Ready" canola. Then, call Monsanto, and ask them if the beehive's stores of pollen are considered an "infringement" of Monsanto's rights. I can see the headlines now - "Beehives - The Napster of Agriculture". :) Monsanto is apparently having less success in the USA with their "enforcement" efforts. Here's one example: http://www.nelsonfarm.net/issue.htm But the news report below, claimed to be from the "Manitoba Co-operator" is the one that gives rise to the most concern in my mind, since it appears to make the point that there is no avoiding more problems like this. http://www.percyschmeiser.com/Tolerance.htm To quote Bob Dylan, "The answer is blowin' in the wind". But then, so is the problem. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:18:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SanFran Chronicle - pollination article Comments: To: Mathew Westall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mathew said: There's an interesting article in the SanFran Chronicle this morning "California Cultures - Nuts and Honey" concerning almond pollination & positions on Chinese honey imports/U.S. almond exports: Interesting article and mostly correct *but* I am afraid the contamination problem is the number one reason for the high honey price as Chinese honey was simply sent to U.S. packers through other countries ( tariff free) around those checking for tariff violations. What good is legislation without enforcement? Most packers (not all) were afraid to touch the Chinese honey after contamination was found. The others we will read about in the newspapers before long I am afraid. Every time a confiscation is made extra attention is focused on honey. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:28:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests Apiguard and Api life Var I am sorry, I had confused these products. Does anyone know of any reports of work done on either of these products, or thymol? thanks Peter Borst :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:04:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Kids and bees In-Reply-To: <004f01c2d69a$6a0cb300$0a9aacd1@Tom> From: Larry Krengel > I am working with a local high school ag teacher to develop a short unit > on honey bees as an agricultural pursuit. Rather than totally reinventing > the wheel, I have a Power Point program on Pollination Beekeeping as a career. I would be glad to e-mail you or any other interest person a copy of the file. I would appreciate a donation for it, but I'd be glad to let you evaluate it first to see if it is good, and if it meets your needs. My wife sold a game called "Swarm" when she was selling bee products on the internet. I think she still has a couple. If you are interested I'll ask her for more info. She also developed her own beekeeping game, though I don't think she ever put it into production. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:09:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Apilife Var Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I have been trying to get recent data on the effectiveness of Apilife Var, since there seems to be a movement to get it approved for US use. I thought that thymol products were not especially effective so I was surprised that people were interested in it, except for the fact that it is not a regular pesticide. It should be understood that concentrated thymol is a harsh chemical, and not to be toyed with. from "Bee World" in 1995 "Apilife VAR is appropriate especially for treatment of Swisstype and single-story hives. ... an efficiency of 95% can be expected. ... In the Dadant and multiple-storey hives, the efficiency is lower and varies considerably from colony to colony." see "Apilife VAR: A new varroacide with thymol as the main ingredient" by A. Imdorf, et al. Swiss Bee Research Centre, Bern. -- Peter Borst :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:45:41 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Fischer wrote: "Why do US taxpayer funded institutions send "technology" to countries who return the favor by using that technology (those bees) to: a) Compete with US honey producers, in both international markets and in the US itself b) Develop highly similar lines of "production" queens rather than buying US bees c) While holding positions that only speed the downward spiral of US beekeeping." Jim, no doubt your arguments are far more refined than my thoughts! - but, I say that the letters "US" may be replaced by several others representing countries that also have honey production amongst its list of "made in ......". Research and production of refined stock lines is not unique to the US - neither is its then shipment to other users in other countries, without any more than the direct costs of production being the return gain. Development of breeder lines tends to be concentrated in specialised centres. These then releasing them to be distributed by producers into the general market - where they gain favour or disappear. The point relating to who should gain from the "construction" of these products and by how much is an acute point of debate. - it is not the average queen producer that has put the package together - so logically they shouldn't. - the centres of research are there to further the overall efficiency, and up to the present have been apparently apolitical/ unbiased regarding where final material has been sent. Research centres possibly initiating a process of improvement have supplied material to others in a different country, which then re-supplies the original centre with again improved material - This has ensured progressive improvement over time. If restricted distribution practice becomes the norm., would this not eventually lead to the common situation found in the agro-chemical industry, i.e. restricted access to information, and that which is in the public domain being supported by biased info? Commenting on restricted supply: - to who?, only to those that can/ will pay? The problems in Saskatchewan (Canola et al.) will be at an infantile level when trying to control the distribution of "controlled material". Or will it be more like distribution to friends or countries that are at present considered as friendly/ useful? Returning to Allen DIck's point about Queens and the final price paid for a qualified final product: A result coming out of a particular research project should be supported in such a manner that it allows continued research to continue. Its final influence on the market should also be reflected in the final product price, this being then tied with guarantees of performance. The population who have then supported the research to get the product from idea to on the market status have little to complain about. But, on how to ensure that the product does not get into the hands of a competitor and used against the country of origin! - there I am lost. How much was paid to bring in the start point for "Russian stock" into the states? How much was paid to bring in "Italian stock" into the states? How much was paid to bring in " Buckfast stock" into the states? Are all previous "gifts" to be ignored and a fresh start initiated as from the present? Anything now produced to be considered as a "commodity", to be traded with profit being the sole "raison d'être"? If that is to be the case, then I for one fear for open research. and if distribution falls to the level of "you can have it, but you can't", based only on political criteria, again I say that it would be a system that would produce far more problems that it would be solve! It is difficult enough to keep cool heads when restrictions are based on "hygiene" tests. Opinions produced are those of the author - and may be debated with only in a calm, polite manner! Peter Dillon. Central France. Europe. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:06:31 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon made a number of interesting observations: > The centres of research are there to further the overall efficiency, and up to the present > have been apparently apolitical/ unbiased regarding where final material has been sent. > ...Or will it be more like distribution to friends or countries that are at present considered > as friendly/ useful? Let me try to clarify my proposal. I had no interest in bringing "politics" into consideration. I would hope that my proposed approach would be applied equally to all nations. I just think that the US should do a better job of respecting the stated wishes of other countries, and that doing so would have an immediate positive effect. (Perhaps not the sort of effect that some countries would want, but one should learn to live with one's decisions, or change one's policies, quick.) a) If a country wishes to prohibit imports of bees or bee products from the US (for example, the ongoing Canadian ban) then the US should respect their stated policy, period. No exceptions. b) Even if a country wants to make an exception to their own laws, regulations, or biosanitary barriers, the US should respect the philosophy that prevents normal day-to-day shipments, and decline to ship "prototype" bees or bee components until a protocol can be negotiated to also the regular shipment of bees, honey, whatever. (This would require the development of port-of-entry inspection protocols, since everyone has the right to inspect, and prevent the entry of the pests and diseases that are the basis for the valid concerns that all have, and should have.) c) Since, as Peter said, "Research and production of refined stock lines is not unique to the US", there may be little or no impact as a result. But I'm guessing that this sort of a policy would make a large number of people as uncomfortable with the idea as Peter is, and bring a number of parties to the table with a much more "cooperative" and "pragmatic" view towards imports and exports. > How much was paid... This is not about money at all. Its about policy. If a country has a policy of viewing beekeeping products (bees, honey, whatever) from the US as "impossible" to import, then the US should strictly respect their views, without question or exception. The results of state or federal tax-funded research should not be distributed to any country that prohibits such items. The risks of distributing a pest or disease are clearly too high in the view of some countries, and their view should be consistently, unconditionally, and firmly respected until they change their general policies. Imagine the careers that would be destroyed if a shipment of the super-queen du jour turned out to be the carrier of some pest or disease. > If restricted distribution practice becomes the norm., would this not eventually lead > to the common situation found in the agro-chemical industry, i.e. restricted access > to information, and that which is in the public domain being supported by biased info? I'm not saying that anyone should limit the free exchange of scientific ideas, but germplasm and queens are not ideas or information, are they? They are items that these countries have clearly indicated that they do not want from the US. Who are we to question their wisdom? > Are all previous "gifts" to be ignored and a fresh start initiated as from the present? > Anything now produced to be considered as a "commodity", to be traded with profit > being the sole "raison d'etre"? That question is better asked of those countries who recently chose to unilaterally restrict or ban imports of bees and/or honey as a default policy under WTO SPS considerations. I'm not questioning their right to do so - all I'm saying is that there should be no exceptions to these bans. None. Not ever. Of course, none of this would have even occurred to me if not for the complete lack of interest in revising the complete nonsense that passes for "biosanitary" considerations in "World Trade" as implemented in the current WTO and SPS agreements that apply to bees, honey, and so on. But everyone seems to be too busy trying to exploit the current nonsense for their own profit and advantage. No one appears to want to address the actual root problem. All I can do is deploy "Weapons of Mass Distraction", and hope that they catch someone's attention. ...and no, I don't sell bees, and I sell all my honey within 4 counties in Virginia. I have nothing to gain or loose from any of this. I just hear a lot of beekeepers constantly complaining about the cards, and I think that they should learn to simply play the hands they are dealt. Lesson One: When in doubt, raise the stakes. :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:55:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara & Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Honeybees in the news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Aurora Sentinel recently printed an article about the City Council Committee meeting about banning bees in residential areas of the city. http://www.zwire.com/site/News.cfm?BRD=1947&dept_id=168651&newsid=7030971&PAG=461&rfi=9 I am sure opinions of the many experts (of varying degrees of expertise) of the members of Bee-L would edify the general public. (yes even Peter Borst) Tom :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 07:10:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill & Joyce Hughes Subject: Beekeeping Short Course in Memphis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Memphis Area Beekeepers Association Annual Beekeeping Short Course Call (901) 294-3560 For Information Location: UT Agricultural Extension Center 5565 Shelby Oaks Dr. Memphis, TN Ph. 544-0243 February 22nd 2003 Time: 9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Registration Begins at 8:30 AM Cost $10.00 Dollars Public invited to attend this educational and informative seminar. The topics to be covered will include beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels of beekeeping. All aspects of beekeeping will be studied from hive management, equipment, disease control, honey harvesting, and packaging. This course will be conducted by volunteers of the local and state beekeeping associations’ who have several years of experience. New beekeepers attending their first course will receive educational materials, hands on instruction, lunch, first year’s dues to the local association, and a chance to win new hive equipment. The drawings will be at the end of the course and you must be present to win. Door prizes and refreshments will be provided. Seating is limited to the first 50 registrants signed in by 9:00 A.M. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: GM canola But to make the farmer a party to the action is weird. I wonder if his lawyer even thought to file ....."? Perhaps the canola farmer can sue the beekeeper/pollinator that he contracted for pollinating his fields for pollinating the other farmer's GMO crops. He could also sue the beekeeper on the Monsanto side of the fence for "Monsanto's Bees" carrying GMO pollen to his own line of "heritage" crops and causing irreverseable harm to his seed. If enough beekeepers got sued then no beekeeper would want to place a hive within 5 miles of a Monsanto field, and Monsanto would have to go into the beekeeping business, then perhaps Monsanto would want probably want to Roundup all the bees in Canada by creating a GMO that is specialized in attracting bees only to Monsanto's plants! Now that would really be a Roundup! Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:34:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Honeybees in the news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom wrote: >The Aurora Sentinel recently printed an article about the City Council >Committee meeting about banning bees in residential areas of the city. http://www.zwire.com/site/News.cfm?BRD=1947&dept_id=168651&newsid=7030971&PAG=461&rfi=9 >I am sure opinions of the many experts (of varying degrees of >expertise) of the members of Bee-L would edify the general public. ......... I contributed some thoughts to their reader's opinion page yesterday morning and am still waiting for my contribution to appear. As of this morning, there is nothing new yet. How do you contact them to let them know they should check their in-box? Layne Westover :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:39:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honeybees in the news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom said: I am sure opinions of the many experts (of varying degrees of expertise) of the members of Bee-L would edify the general public. Many times justice is the will of the stronger. Beekeepers are indeed a small minority of the population. In the Aurora case almost even with the two percent allergic. If the room had been filled with people protesting the proposed ordinance the ordinance would have failed. Not rocket science! Next time the issue comes up contact a local bee club and ask as many members as can to attend and present a show of force. Rally friends, neighbors, fellow workers and church members to help out! I live in a very very rural setting. Miles in any direction to find even a gas station. My cats (which live outside) would run away from the farm if I tried to put a leash on them. Beekeeper Hendricks quote from article: "This is the city that requires cats on leashes so I am not surprised " I have never been hurt by a stray cat nor have I ever heard of a person hurt by a straying house cat but I guess the possibility exists. I am sure many kids pets have been put to sleep by the Aurora animal control because of the ordinance. Move to the country Tom while you still can! Might be worth the commute! Bob Ps. Every time planning and zoning for our county has a proposal by a REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER to divide farms into small lots the meeting is packed with me and my neighbors saying NO!. The first time we do not show up the proposal will pass and before long : CATS ON LEASHES! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not saying that anyone should limit the free exchange of > scientific ideas, but germplasm and queens are not ideas or > information, are they? If not that, then exactly what are they? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ The huge billboard sig that follows is not mine. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:49:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Imports In-Reply-To: <005101c2d558$01f70740$d2342fca@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:09 AM 2/16/2003 +1000, you wrote: > >Thinking about Jerry's request for information on where the USA sends live >bees to, I know that we in Australia have been quoted that they go to France >and the Middle East. So far, we've had the U.K. and E.U. viewpoints, a report that S. African does not allow the importation of live bees from the U.S., and one documented case of queens going to France. I know that we sell a lot of bee equipment to the middle east, but does anyone send bees there? Still waiting to here from someone in South America. So far, it looks like the only U.S. suppliers who can sell outside the U.S. are the producers in Hawaii, with possible exception of a few "research" queens. Thanks again, this may warrant a note to the bee mags. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:00:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: I read: >Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests The results of tests conducted throughout the world show an average 90% efficacy rate. All SELLERS of controls for varroa which are temperature and humidity dependent such as formic acid, formic acid gel and Apiguard need to advise users of the fact. If they do not I would move on to a seller which does. With a pesticide strip you simply open the hive and drop in the strip and if the varroa were not resistant 99% of the time you got the advertised 90% and up control. I predict a further reduction in commercial beekeepers in the U.S. once Checkmite is removed from the market as using temperature and humidity dependent controls is complicated but workable if one wants to spend the time checking and testing. Menthol and formic acid gel in the U.S. were two methods which simply do not give advertised control *in many cases* as per label without taking into consideration *temperature and humidity* . Peter said: I have been told that no new Section 18 exemptions can be issued in states where coumaphos is still effective. I am still checking but right now Checkmite sold in Kansas is not being shipped to Missouri. I doubt the holding back of section 18's for those areas in which Checkmite is still working will stand when the two beekeeping organizations start lobbying BUT the movement has started to pull the section 18 for coumaphos I have been told by other beekeepers. The reason I have been given is illegal use of a coumaphos animal product. Once banned the FDA the next year can confiscate ALL honey tainted with even a ppb of coumaphos. Goes back to the FDA honey watch. Please wake up beekeepers using the illegal coumaphos method as research has shown (Florida inspection service) the dosage needed to control varroa contaminates both honey and wax. Many beekeepers fear the pulling of Checkmite will cause further use of the illegal method WHICH DOES NOT WORK IN THE LONG RUN and can cause you to be fined $10,000 for the first offense. All the FDA needs to do is test wax to prove their case as it is IMPOSSIBLE to get those levels of coumaphos in wax using Checkmite by label. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L has no "Frequently Asked Questions", but any topic can be reviewed by searching the archives. The archives are the FAQ! BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >> I'm not saying that anyone should limit the free exchange of >> scientific ideas, but germplasm and queens are not ideas or >> information, are they? ...and Allen asked: > If not that, then exactly what are they? They are specifically "trade goods" that various countries have clearly said that they DON'T want from the US. Any similarity between my observations and the policy of any specific country is an purely internal issue to be brought up by each specific country. You see, there are a small number of people who want to import bees into the US. I don't think anyone should have any problem with that, as long as everyone understands that a system of checks and balances needs to be put in place to verify at port-of-entry that only bees are imported, rather than bees, diseases, and pests. The only rational way to do this is to inspect each and every queen at port of entry, just like the UK does now. Sadly, the current WTO SPS gibberish mumbles on and on about "certification" at point of shipment by the very person who has the choice to ship, and make a sale, or refuse to ship, and not make a sale. (That ticking sound you may hear is the countdown to the next time someone screws up and exports or imports yet another beastie that kills bees, which, under the current WTO rules, is an absolute statistical certainty.) To block someone's imports just because those imports might be infested is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For those countries that do not see the fuzzy thinking inherent in either: a) The current WTO "rules" as applied to bees b) That country's stance in regard to imports of bees ...I expect that it would be very little trouble to find support in Congress for "strict consistency in biosecurity", and insure that ALL babies are thrown out with ALL bathwater until further notice. And now that the "omnibus spending bill" has been passed, Congress (the House Agriculture Committee would be the usual forum for this) certainly has the time to write a quick statement to clarify the existing federal regulations and policies, and insure that there will be no exceptions to respecting the clearly stated wishes of our trading partners. After all, the two primary excuses trotted out by World Trade advocates to explain the spread of bee pests and diseases have been "smuggling" and "scientific importation", so it looks like we need to do a better job. Its the least we can do. :) So, what part of "No bee imports from the US" is unclear to the very people who said it? Mean what you say, say what you mean. Live with the consequences. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Bee Imports On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:49:02 -0700, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: >So far, we've had the U.K. and E.U. viewpoints, a report that S. African >does not allow the importation of live bees from the U.S., and one >documented case of queens going to France. > >I know that we sell a lot of bee equipment to the middle east, but does >anyone send bees there? Still waiting to here from someone in South >America. Submitted as a supplemental note of interest, a queen breeder in Chile informed me back in Jan. while we were discussing the Small Hive Beetle in Australia that France had cut off all queen imports from Chile. I do not know if there since has been any change. Chuck Norton Reidsvile, NC (Where the sun is out and it is raining chunks of ice from the trees, and still waiting for the maple bloom.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:19:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Pollination practice(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>When the price of honey drops (as it inevitably must) and beekeepers go back for > pollination, will the growers be there? > Smart growers are willing to pay top dollar for strong hives of bees. A friend who has a reasonable size orchard in Washington state is planning to start his own apiary this year. Laws of supply and demand tend to return equilibrium. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:56:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I'm not saying that anyone should limit the free exchange of >>> scientific ideas, but germplasm and queens are not ideas or >>> information, are they? > > ...and Allen asked: > >> If not that, then exactly what are they? > > They are specifically "trade goods" that various countries have > clearly said that they DON'T want from the US. That seems to me to be a rather old-fashioned way of looking at things. In my view, 'ideas and information' is =exactly= what germplasm is: . I'll concede that queens may be trade goods, though. Nonetheless, there is an 'ideas and information' aspect even when considering trade in novel queens. I've decided that the trade question is actually a philosophical one, though, once the facts have been stated. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:58:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pollination practice(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar said: A friend who has a reasonable size orchard in Washington state is planning to start his own apiary this year. I welcome new beekeepers. I will give you friendly advice to pass on to your friend from my lifetime of keeping bees. Do not keep the hives in his orchard if he uses the normal spray schedule that most growers use. The bees will work flowers under the trees and suffer pesticide damage. Keep the bees several miles away and move in and out of the orchard. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: > In my view, 'ideas and information' is =exactly= what germplasm is: . No, here are examples of the "ideas and information" in germplasm. http://www.tigr.org/tdb/tgi/amgi/ http://www.barc.usda.gov/psi/brl/apistable2.htm The physical manifestation of chemicals that are described by the "ideas and information" can only be "tangible trade goods", since one can extract all the "useful information and ideas" from the tangible trade goods. The physical germplasm merely contains the "information". The difference is the difference between a schematic for a radio and a radio. One is the machine, the other is the "idea". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:43:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests Peter said: I have been told that no new Section 18 exemptions can be issued in states where coumaphos is still effective. Bob: I doubt the holding back of section 18's for those areas in which Checkmite is still working Peter: The reason given was that you cannot get a section 18 exemption unless there are *no other products* that work. People should lobby for *registration* for thymol, if they think it works -- not an exemption. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:22:24 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George T Subject: Apiguard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Peter, Hi All, Last summer I had the chance to use Apiguard. I wanted to test if my bees become resistant to our drug used to fight against Varroa Distructor. The Apiguard is a slow release gel and the active ingredient is thymol. The drug extremely easy to use placing the opened tray with gel face upwards in the top of brood frames. The bees will do the distribution within the bee colony is assured by vapour release and also by the bees social behavior (feeding exchange and cleaning activities). The efficacy against three types of hive pest makes this drug a very good product (Varroa, tracheal mite and chalkbrood.). My observation. I think that the bees with high Hyg test will clean faster the Apiguard.. So when you treat with Apiguard you see if your bees have high Hyg behaviour. The efficacy to 10 colonies treated with Apiguard was about 93-95%. If you want to read more do visit the site : http://www.vita-europe.com/ and for information do contact : the email Email: information@vita-europe.com . _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:22:34 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, your case is clearer! What you wish for is a "black and white" import/ export situation for the US to be put into place, whilst respecting the wishes of the individual importing countries! But what if the respective country wishes to ban general commerce of bee stocks etc. from US (and anywhere else). as a hygiene measure - then wishes to import material for research/development purposes - you are proposing that due to the imposition of a "partial ban" on US material, the response is to be one of a total embargo (bee material) towards that country. You are asking for all or nothing? This would still not result in your wish for efficient bio-security systems. It is a form of economic blackmail! - unless you are totally committed to isolating US bee stocks from external diseases and infections. And if the latter is the case - then why not go for a total ban on all imports/ exports. To make it clear, my position is that as you partially suggest - the imposition of a valid point of entry check system - (with inherent weak point that it will only check for items that are in the known domain) So, secure the home territory - if that's what is deemed as necessary - but allow specified material to be exchanged where it be considered to be in the interest of the receiving country. The point in debate is then, what is considered as useful and by whom, involving arguments that may insist in the imposition of short term hardship before the new "status quo" arrives. It is for the US to decide on its export/import policy - but if it is to be one of all or nothing depending only whether the recipient country has a policy that is to advantage the original source - difficult to support! A hygiene purist may consider the case as one that suggests total ban on movement of bee materials, with the development of stocks in hand. >From a pragmatic stance - any closure to trade is only of short term benefit - what ever is being sought to control will eventually arrive if biologically possible. The imposition of frontier controls may hinder infestation. I tend towards the gray solution - tight import/export controls, with lea way for specialist material to be freely traded. Whether that comes about in a particular country depends on the democratic process - unless of course, it is imposed upon the masses for their better well being! But, then we can always change the imposers can't we! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:38:02 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Salmon and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having listened to TF1 (French T.V.) this evening where it was mentioned that Salmon in the US have had their genetic makeup altered to decrease the period required to arrive at a marketable size - it seems logical to attempt a similar approach with our honey bees - reduce the maturation period, hence leaving out mutual enemy, Vd. totally stranded in an empty cell before it reaches puberty! Worth the risk? Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:03:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kids & Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/02/03 05:03:48 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << of >> Check out the BBKA web site. They do a schools pack called 'Bees in the Curriculum'. It is designed for the UK education system but it should adapt. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:59:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apiguard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Dr. Patti Elzen (Westlaco Bee Lab) in her presentation at the ABF convention ( 1-15-03) both Apilife Var and Apiguard are being tested by the U.S.D.A.. Early reports are at best a 80% control and temperature dependent. At the Vita- Europe site George posted an above 60F. temperature is recommended for successful Apiguard treatment. Nothing is said about humidity. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:33:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> In my view, 'ideas and information' is =exactly= what germplasm is: . > No, here are examples of the "ideas and information" in germplasm. > The difference is the difference between a schematic for a > radio and a radio. One is the machine, the other is the "idea". Exactly. I thought that germplasm contained the idea/information for generating individuals, much like the schematic to which you refer. The queen is the radio. No matter. I'll never manage to take this seriously. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:50:01 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I am still checking but right now Checkmite sold in Kansas is not > being shipped to Missouri. Ironic - the agriculture division of Bayer, the "home" of Checkmite, is headquartered in Kansas City, Missouri. A number of the Section 18s in the original batch expired on February 1 of the year following the original approval. Perhaps the MO Section 18 expired on 02/01/03, and no one can ship to MO until they have a renewal in hand. The associated EPA "tolerance" for coumaphos (1ppm in honey) does not expire until 2004. Peter said: > The reason given was that you cannot get a section 18 exemption unless > there are *no other products* that work. People should lobby for > *registration* for thymol, if they think it works -- not an exemption. Then I'm missing something here. As I recall, Section 18s were approved for Checkmite based upon the discovery of even a single case of Apistan resistance in any one state. If my memory is correct, it follows that the sole prerequisite for getting a Section 18 for yet another an alternative miticide would be one or more cases of coumaphos resistance. Since there have been multiple cases of correlation between coumaphos resistance and fluvalinate resistance (see the archive, as referenced in the really bulky tag lines being added to everyone's messages), I'd guess that more than one state has sufficient grounds to request a Section 18 for "something else" right now. But even if both my memory and reasoning are correct, would such conditions prompt a Section 18 request for thymol, or something else? There must be some sort of consensus and sanity check built into the process, or different states would request different products. But just about anything else would be a good alternative to Coumaphos. I think that Brushy Mountain describes Checkmite best: "Approved for use in a limited number of states, call for info. Some states require a pesticide use license in order to purchase this material. Numerous environmental hazards, use only as needed." jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:59:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apiguard efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/02/03 05:03:48 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I wrote twice to the manufacturers to get copies of the "tests" but they did not reply. Has anyone else seen reports of these tests? I have been told that no new Section 18 exemptions can be issued in states where coumaphos is still effective. >> I have seen the results of the tests in the manufacturer's printed matter but don't have it to hand. From memory the tests were conducted in a number of countries with varying efficiency between the low and the high 90s in % terms. I used it last autumn to give a break from Bayvarol (artificial pyrethroid) and checking trays under varroa floors in my home apiary the last few weeks there is a virtually nil drop whereas one untreated hive (a swarm treated with Bayvarol last May but nothing since) shows a drop averaging between 1 and 2 per day. It is a long time since I removed the Apiguard but I still get a whiff of thymol when conditions are right. Chris (UK) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:49:23 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: > But what if the respective country wishes to ban general commerce of bee stocks etc. from > US (and anywhere else). as a hygiene measure - then wishes to import material for > research/development purposes Please understand that any use of the first person form of address ("you") is simply to keep from getting bogged down in 2nd and 3rd-person wording. Nothing against Peter, or France. (I often confuse "3rd Person Plural" with "1st Person Rural", anyway... je suis, tu est, il est, eh?) So, let me see if I have this straight... a) You say you want the latest queens and germplasm from the R&D labs. b) Somehow, you CAN satisfy yourself that you are not importing diseases and pests with those R&D shipments c) But you can't (or won't) use the same protocol(s) for general commerce. Why does this strike me as somehow inconsistent with the stated rationale for your ban? Perhaps because it clearly is. :) > you are proposing that due to the imposition of a "partial ban" > on US material, the response is to be one of a total embargo > (bee material) towards that country. Isn't the sudden invention of the term "partial ban" nothing more than an attempt to gloss over the massive self-serving inconsistency I just pointed out? And isn't it very unfair to characterize strict US compliance with both the letter and the spirit of the total ban as "a total embargo"? How can it be an "embargo"? Just who's ban is it, anyway? > It is a form of economic blackmail! So complying with the clear intent of your ban is not only an "embargo", but is also "blackmail"? Well, who banned what, anyway? No one is asking anyone to buy anything. No one is asking anyone to pay anyone anything. Anyone who wants to modify their total ban is free to do so, but is expected to do so in a consistent manner, since to do otherwise would be to violate international (WTO) treaties. But until bans are lifted or modified, I'm afraid that WTO rules do not allow "exceptions" or "special cases". One either allows imports, or one does not, due to valid biosecurity concerns. > unless you are totally committed to isolating US bee stocks from external diseases and infections. > And if the latter is the case - then why not go for a total ban on all imports/ exports. The US imposed strict quarantines (but never a total ban) for decades, but it is clear that the WTO treaties do not allow such things. So, we need a port-of-entry testing protocol that makes sense for bees and bee-related items. Negotiate one, and everyone wins. Fail to negotiate one, and you loose out, while everyone else enjoys "free trade". One of the (few) advantages of "free trade" is that R&D transfers require less paperwork. > I tend towards the gray solution - tight import/export controls, with lea way for specialist > material to be freely traded. The problem is that WTO SPS guidelines make no exceptions for "specialist material". The USDA APHIS proposal for bee imports into the US, (the full text of which can be read at http://www.beeculture.com/imports) was an honest attempt to follow WTO SPS rules, and it defines the "rules" for gremplasm and experimental queens as no different from commercial production queens. Since so much effort by so many very smart people went into these documents, I can only conclude that the best and brightest have slogged through all the relevant WTO rules, and found that the rules say that "a bee is a bee is a bee", and surprisingly, that "germplasm" is also "a bee" of sorts. So, it appears that one either can or cannot export bees to a country, and ignoring the rules in the case of "specialist material" would be grounds for suits from commercial entities who feel that they were unfairly excluded from the opportunity to trade. But I don't want anyone to think that I would ever advocate any restriction on the free flow of scientific knowledge. I'm only talking about tangible goods that are subject to WTO rules, like bees, queens, germplasm, and so on. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:04:32 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Not exactly replying to any particular point here, but I throw in another reason why some countries would not want to accept American bee stock. Something close to my heart is genetic and allelic diversity... In UK we have a natural background of bees with a history of around 10,000 years in our geographic location. This broad based gene pool has been modified somewhat over the last 180 years or more, by imports and selective breeding. Genetic diversity in US is lower, because of the limited number of original lines (allbeit a large figure) that have been imported over the last 500 years. This paucity of alleles is further reduced by modern breeding projects that are 'quick and dirty' with little or no attention to 'quality control'. We in UK and mainland Europe are attempting to retain the biodiversity levels that we have fallen to and even increase or re-establish them if possible, but bringing in US stock would dilute and/or displace some of our natural diversity. I have no objection to bee trade across frontiers from a commercial point of view, although transmission of pests and diseases is a problem that must be seriously addressed, but I do not like the idea of importation from a region of lower genetic diversity into one that is richer in that resource. I think it probable that a case could be made for a one way bee transmission from Europe to USA (for genetic reasons), but I would hate to be the politician that tried to implement it. I think a similar case could be made for Australia and New Zealand. Any long distance bee imports/exports should be kept at arms length with quarantine on a suitable island for perhaps several seasons. That way any 'lurking' pests or diseases could be discovered before contaminating a continent. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:25:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave and All, I hope Dave will accept the following in the friendly manor which is intended in response to his post. I find it funny that you English are so attached to your black bee that Brother Adam found (in his opinion) to not be even close to being the ideal bee. I do wish I had saved at least one hive of those bees to always remind me why I eliminated those from the gene pool . Dave said: Something close to my heart is genetic and allelic diversity... In UK we have a natural background of bees with a history of around 10,000 years in our geographic location. This broad based gene pool has been modified somewhat over the last 180 years or more, by imports and selective breeding. *Somewhat* should be changed to *largely modified* after tracheal mites *almost* wiped out the original black bee in the early 1900's and heavy importation began. Dave said: This paucity of alleles is further reduced by modern breeding projects that are 'quick and dirty' with little or no attention to 'quality control'. If you are refering to work done at the Baton Rouge Bee lab then you simply do not understand the project. The research at Baton Rouge is to get chemicals out of the bee hive. The Baton Rouge lab accomplished in six years what most researchers (Dr. Shiminuki) predicted would take twenty years. None of us can predict the long term effect of ANY chemical used in our hives. Dave said: We in UK and mainland Europe are attempting to retain the biodiversity levels that we have fallen to and even increase or re-establish them if possible, but bringing in US stock would dilute and/or displace some of our natural diversity. Will your English bee survive varroa without help? Shouldn't you be leaving some untreated and breeding from varroa tolerant bees? Would not the SMR trait be a help to your English black bee? I love to kid Dave (and others) about their beloved English bee but Dave knows I respect Dave and all my English friends. We have the same type of discussion over pro's and con's in the U.S. between Carniolan & Italian beekeepers and Ford and Chevy owners. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard George T The efficacy to 10 colonies treated with Apiguard was about 93-95%. If you want to read more do visit the site : http://www.vita-europe.com/ I went to their web site. They don't provide any back up for their claims, which is what I am looking for. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:04:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Different types of labels explained MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Labeling in the US generally has several categories: Full labeling which requires full feeding studies for human consumption, i.e.. in honey, wax etc, efficacy work-usually over 2years minimum, environmental impact studies ..... All this costs many Million dollars. 24C label allows the addition of a pest on to a FULL label that is not currently on that label. It is usually registered specific to a particular state or group of states. As an example, if a product like Apistan was fully registered for varroa and then we found it was active on another pest in a particular state where that pest was present, the State with the manufacturers OK could apply for a 24c label for that pest in that State. It is on a state by state basis A section 18 label is an emergency label and is only granted in EMERGENCY situations where there is NO OTHER PRODUCT THAT WILL CONTROL A PARTICULAR PEST. The manufacturer CANNOT REQUEST THIS TYPE OF LABEL but must allow it. The EPA is very strict about issuing these emergency labels. They are very specific to the areas where the product will be used, the total amount used and users are tracked and many times field inspected. The user better have a copy of the section 18 label in his possession while using the product. These labels will not be issued on a cost basis because a particular product is cheaper than an existing one The label is issued for a specific time period, sometimes a matter of months and usually the longest is a year. Some states have cried "wolf" in the past and have now a very difficult time getting section 18 as the EPA has difficulty in believing said states " cries as emergency" I hope this puts the different types of labels in perspective. Also consider the manufacturers economic position of having to recover their multi- million dollar costs from a low volume product OR even developing something like essential oil which probably are NOT patentable. Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:52:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Buddy J Subject: "Poisoned Bees" Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a brief article in the March 8, 2003 Awake! magazine under "Watching the World". Poisoned Bees "Will we be able to eat any French honey ten years from now?" asks the French news-magazine Marianne. Millions of bees are being killed by poison every spring, causing the national production of honey to drop from 45,000 tons in 1989 to 16,000 tons in 2000. In a single week, one beekeeper lost his 450 hives - 22 millions bees! Many honey producers blame agricultural chemicals such as pesticides, especially the cheaper and more potent products that are imported illegally. Some farmers have even added used engine oil or bleach to their chemicals for greater effect! If nothing is done, "there is a risk that French honey will become merely an object of folklore," says Marianne. Buddy Gauthier Systems Programmer/Analyst - Beekeeper Hobbyist CAMECO® Industries, Inc. Thibodaux, LA Email: GauthierBuddyJ@JohnDeere.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:11:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Responding more or less to Dave Cushman's thoughts about the value of genetic diversity, it occurs to me that the main benefit diversity is that it provides the greatest possibility for resistance to threats to a specie's well being to emerge from the gene pool. Of course from the beekeeper's point of view, this is only of value if the freedom to choose, or should I say "select", those genes exists. There seems to be a Catch 22 here, is there not? In selecting those genes which are most beneficial to us, we move in the direction of lesser genetic diversity. In other areas of animal husbandry I understand this is becoming a serious concern as breeds are disappearing rapidly. Perhaps the solution to this, and I am sure this has been thought of, is to establish subsidized gene banks around the world, and to make the "genetic information" (Allen Dick), available to all those counties, states, provinces etc. who contribute to their support. This, of course would not preclude establishment of more rational approaches to import and export of bees in general. My first posting, Steve Noble Beginning beekeeper Whidbey Island, Wa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:12:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I might have guessed that I would run into some opposition! I am not quite sure how far Bob's tongue is in his cheek when he says... > I find it funny that you English are so attached to your black bee that > Brother Adam found (in his opinion) to not be even close to being the ideal > bee. I could write a book in reply to that statement, but I will restrict myself... First... Bro Adam's idea of an 'ideal bee' for his purpose was the Buckfast bee as it was in about 1980. It was a brilliant bee for it's purpose (heather honey production on Dartmoor) however it was never intended (by him) for general purpose use. He sold it to others because they 'desired' it and it made money for the Abbey. I have been accused of being a 'black bee' fanatic, but I do not consider this correct. I am in favour of bees that are easy to work, non stinging, productive of honey, disease and pest resistant and breed true without much human intervention. I have only found these traits myself in dark bees from well established lines that were not wiped out as Bro. Adam insisted. The wipe outs were severe in the region that he was working in, but this is largly attributed, these days, to the amount of Italian hybridisation among the bees in his surrounding locality. Further North a great many pockets of bees were untouched by Isle of Wight disease. I was not commenting about any work at Baton Rouge, but that many bee types are 'brought to market' too quickly for the amount of testing and assement that is really required. > Will your English bee survive varroa without help? I doubt that a large proportion of any race or strain of bee, as it exists at the moment, would survive unaided. > Shouldn't you be leaving some untreated and breeding > from varroa tolerant bees? There are a number of groups of serious amateur breeders attempting this. > Would not the SMR > trait be a help to your English black bee? The SMR trait exists in UK bees, but not at very useable levels... It may have it's part to play, but I doubt that it is the 'magic bullet'. I know that Bro. Adam is considered a saint by some in US and I have no wish to blacken his character. Some documents written by Bro. Adam have recently come into my hands and I will eventually be publishing them on my website. It will take time to do this as they need re-typing due to being very old Roneo copies that were poorly printed even before they faded. They do show that he was rather biassed against 'the black bee'. Opinions and kidding aside, we will be finding definitive answers very shortly as DNA analysis is starting to track and identify individual alleles and we will eventually be able to compare strains of bee in great detail. This will enable us to work out the divergence of the geographic types over the past few thousand years. I don't know much about Fords and Chevies, I used to have souped up Jags and Daimlers myself. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:48:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Honeybees in the news In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >The Aurora Sentinel recently printed an article about the City Council >Committee meeting about banning bees in residential areas of the city. > >http://www.zwire.com/site/News.cfm?BRD=1947&dept_id=168651&newsid=7030971&PAG=461&rfi=9 Although the following response to the news article is on this website, I have found that access to such sites can become stale; I thought this was such a well written response to a classic problem that it deserves to be archived. Mea McNeil Name: Dave Green Date: Feb, 18 2003 The city council needs to consider the deeper ramifications rather than make knee-jerk reactions. There is an ecological niche that WILL be filled, whether it is by controlled domestic bees, or by wild bees and wasps.There is a tremendous variety of behaviors of the various strains of honeybees and other bee and wasp species. As a beekeeper, if I have a mean hive, I will kill the queen and replace her with one from gentle stock. The strains of bees that are kept by American beekeepers have been subject to this kind of selective breeding in favor of gentleness since Roman times. The original bee brought by the colonists to the US was the german black bee, which had been domesticated a much shorter time, and was much nastier. I've worked with these bees, and have eliminated them from my own use. My bees are used for crop pollination, with farm workers frequently around them. Another bee that has been totally wild until modern times has entered the US. The bee originated from an area of Africa where there is no tradition of beekeeping. When someone wants honey, they find the bee tree and kill the hive. In this circumstance the bees that are violent enough to drive off human and animal intruders are the ones most likely to survive. Such selective breeding has created a fierce bee. Some of these africanized hives are awesome to behold. The africanized bee has moved into many open areas of the Southwest, across western Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and some parts of Southern California. But it has not been able to penetrate very far eastward, because it encounters a very high concentration of beekeepers in eastern Texas. In Florida some years ago, africanized bees apparently escaped from a ship at a port and became established. By the time they were discovered, there were many daughter colonies that had moved from the original entry site. All but one of these swarms had gone to the area with the biggest empty ecological niche -- you guessed it!... the community that had an ordinance banning beekeeping. If I were a city official in an area with africanized bees, I would try to set up a defense of designated beekeepers to saturate the area with gentle, managed bees, rather than allowing the wild ones to enter a vacuum. Even with the africanized bees, there are gentle hives. Brazillian beekeepers are finding that with modern breeding methods they can select these gentle ones, and cull the mean ones, to tame the race much faster that we ever could before. Beekeepers in Brazil and other Latin American countries have already helped to greatly reduce the problems that originally characterized this bee. The more beekeepers, the better for the public. Bees can and are managed in suburban and urban areas of the world with proper safeguards. The beekeepers who do this perform a great service to the community in free pollination of gardens, and they help to protect the public from unmanaged, untamed replacements that could cause a lot more problems. If I had an allergy, as Ms. Dorris, I would be afraid to go outdoors at any time, because there are many hymenopterans that can sting. I would quickly get myself to a competent allergist and get the series of shots that give protection. Then I could consider the question from a more objective frame of mind rather than from fear. Do you want to have the totally wild and random population of this ecological niche, or do you want the measure of protection that is provided to you by beekeepers, who don't want mean bees any more than you do, and will work hard to keep only gentle strains. As a long term beekeeper, I had a systemic reaction to a single bee sting, once in my life when I was on a pain-killing drug in the ibuprofen family, while recuperating from surgery. The reaction frightened me, and it also made me think that I might not be able to return to my occupation, but as soon as the drug cleared my system, I had no further reaction. I wonder how many trips to the emergency room are not from true allergic reactions but to interactions between these common pain killers MEA McNeil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:07:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Thymol A number of people have told me they are interested in thymol because it is a natural product. Commercial thymol, so far as I know, is a synthetic chemical. It is fairly dangerous and not to be handled carelessly. Thymol (from MSDS) EMERGENCY OVERVIEW Appearance: colorless or white. Danger! Corrosive. May be harmful if swallowed. May cause adverse reproductive effects based upon animal studies. Causes eye and skin burns. May cause severe respiratory tract irritation with possible burns. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with possible burns. May cause nervous system effects. Target Organs: Kidneys, central nervous system, liver, spleen. Potential Health Effects Eye: Causes eye burns. May cause chemical conjunctivitis and corneal damage. Skin: Causes skin burns. May cause skin rash (in milder cases), and cold and clammy skin with cyanosis or pale color. Ingestion: May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. May cause perforation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed. May cause systemic effects. Inhalation: Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. Aspiration may lead to pulmonary edema. May cause systemic effects. Chronic: Effects may be delayed. May cause adverse reproductive effects. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:25:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul S LeRoy Subject: Apiguard, etc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Why are there so many negative comments on BEE-L about thymol, apiguard etc, those things that are not toxic to bees or humans and which varroa apparently cannot develop immunity? It would seem to me that if beekeepers, commercial and hobbyist have enough sense to apply Apistan and Cumafous? by label that if the thymol products were labeled as being temperature dependent and show the temperatures and effectivity rates at different temperatures that beekeepers surely have enough sense to apply them accordingly. If they dont the only harm done is the the beekeeper has spent money on a product, not received maximum available benefit from it but has not violated any laws or rules and has not created a monster of varroa that nothing available today will kill. Just an observation from a hobby beekeeper of 60 plus years, president of local Beekeepers Association, Regional Representative to State Beekeepers Association. One who does not use Apistan and Cumafous and teaches new beekeepers that there is a way other than harsh, toxic chemicals to keep bees through the process of Integrated Pest Management, queen selection for hygenics and SMR qualites and other non toxic means to control mites and other honeybee pests. And before anyone flames me I and members of my Association have colonies that have survived and been effective for more than 4 years using these principles and pressing on to improve our knowledge and procedures. Paul LeRoy- West central South Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:30:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Steve Noble said... > Perhaps the solution to this, and I am sure this has been thought of, > is to establish subsidized gene banks around the world In a way this is happening... There are 'special interest groups' throughout the world that are maintaining and attempting to refine bees of various types. The system is not formalised as a 'gene bank', but it fulfils that purpose. It works best if the bee concerned is native to the area of the project concerned. > My first posting, > Steve Noble > Beginning beekeeper Welcome Steve! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:28:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 18 Feb 2003 to 19 Feb 2003 (#2003-51) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/03 11:02:33 PM Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << A number of people have told me they are interested in thymol because it is a natural product. Commercial thymol, so far as I know, is a synthetic chemical. It is fairly dangerous and not to be handled carelessly. >> This is the same mentality that crops up from time to time with those that do not understand ALL things are composed of "chemicals" . As a chemist I get this frequently. The "all natural" , chemical free, statement(s) drive me batty. Aspirin (2-(acetyloxy) benzoic acid) was a natural product. Obviously with the number of people that have used it over the past 120 or so years, it is now synthetic--the trees from which it comes would be extinct otherwise!! This was the main point over the taxol issue several years ago. Anything you put in a hive that would not normally be put in there by the bees (and for that matter a lot of things that are normally found in there but at very low levels) has the potential to be toxic or dangerous. An old professor of mine reminded all of us that drugs are poisons, the key to their use is to look at the benefits vs the consequences. The same holds true for the use of pesticides. BTW the LD50 for Thymol (5-methyl-2-(1-methylethyl) phenol) is 1.8g/Kg. The LD50 for Asprin is 1.75 g/ Kg. Something to consider. Tim Morris South Central Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard, etc. Paul writes: Why are there so many negative comments on BEE-L about thymol, apiguard etc, Paul, I started this thread in a sincere attempt to find out what the current status is on the testing of thymol products. I was under the impression that thymol was not effective and therefore was surprised that there was a movement underway to get it approved in the US. If it works I will be more than happy to use it. I do not wish to use coumaphos or any other insecticides in my hives. However, if it doesn't work I think people should be clear about this. Or if it works sometimes, under certain conditions -- conditions which may not prevail in your area. What if it only works under mediterranean type conditions? Also, it should be made clear that anything that kills mites has a high likelihood of harming bees and contaminating honey. Thymol is known to be absorbed into the honey and combs and give off a very rank odor. Like I said, I did not start this discussion in order to trash thymol or promote any point of view, but to get some more information. I have searched high and low and so far have not found reports of large scale trials. There appear to be very glowing claims associated with thymol products, mostly made by people who sell it. I am looking for unbiased evidence that it does or does not work, that's all. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:05:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Thymol MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT We must remember that just because something is " natural" it does not mean it is necessarily safe. Some examples might be nicotine, formic acid, and many of the most toxic substances known to man are natural- botulisium, micro-toxins found on many substances from grain to peanuts, and a host of natural alkaloid substances, airborne asbestos fibers which are really stone, air borne walnut sawdust, silica dust and the list could go on for quite a while. I prefer to judge my risk to a substance by noting the substances innate toxicity, the dose I might receive, the frequency of exposure and the concentration. I believe that the hazard is in the dose and likelihood of exposure and route of absorption. If I am handling a substance that is only absorbed by the oral route, I would be very cautious to protect myself from lung and oral exposure. If skin absorbed, I would be especially careful to use long sleeved clothing and wear appropriate gloves etc. Natural products many times do not carry label warnings while pesticides and drugs will have very strict warnings, use instructions and use instructions So much for my humble views and I do not wish to start a war on this subject but offer these thoughts for your consideration Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:45:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apiguard, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: However, if it doesn't work I think people should be clear about this. Every chemical put on the market to control varroa works. The problem I am trying to point out is you can not claim a high effacy for products which are temperature and humidity dependent in every situation. >From memory I believe that the Thymol product tested in Georgia by Delaplane and Ellias and results published in the American Bee Journal had an control of 67%. While Vita-Europe claimed control to be in the 90% plus range. Delaplane and Ellias could have gotten a higher control (and in my opinion they should have considering the time of year of treatment) or if the testing was done with a thymol product in October in Minnesota I would expect a lower than 67% control. If you are going to choose a temperature and humidity dependent treatment then the choice of the rest of the world has been so far formic acid. Dr. Shiminuki (U.S.D.A. Beltsville ret.) was very aware of thymol , FGMO ,etc. but decided on formic acid as the best choice. Beekeeper safety was his main concern which is why he decided on a gel pack as the delivery method. The American Beekeeping Federation made a resolution (K.C. 2003) to press for U.S. registration of formic acid gel and FORMIC ACID LIQUID. www.mitegone.com says at the website: Because formic acid liquid does not have a specific label use similar to food grade mineral oil ( used to kill varroa in hives)and baking soda (used to kill ants) the use of formic acid in a bee hive is a homeopathic method of treating varroa and does not need registration in the U.S. I was amazed at the concern for SAFETY by Mitegone. I believe mitegone has done an excellent job of showing safe use of liquid formic acid. All sellers of temperature and humidity dependent products should take a cue from Mitegone and give each buyer of thymol or formic acid products safe use and temperature/humidity instructions. Peter said: Thymol is known to be absorbed into the honey and combs and give off a very rank odor. Very true while formic acid is found already in honey and many other food products ( one reason why those seeking to sell *organic honey* want to see the use of formic acid made a reality). Formic acid ( FA) gives off a strong odor also as those which used the FA gel already realize. The fumes from both thymol and FA products should be avoided. Bob Ps. We have been spoiled around the world by 98% pesticide strips. Now the scenario changes and only those beekeepers willing to change to methods presented by the researchers will survive. Of course there will always (hopefully) be those beekeepers which will continue to replace the deadouts from varroa every two years with packages. Those beekeepers not treating and replacing support an industry needing support. Some of those beekeepers this year had their hives started from packages last spring die in late fall due to a high infestation of varroa on arrival due to failures of a few (not all) packages sellers varroa control programs failing (reported at our bee assn. meeting by several ). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I ahve spoken to people who use 1.5 inch Narrow crown staples to put together frames (with glue). I seem to recal some folks might also use 18 gauge brads. I have access to a brad nailer and a crown stapler and was wondering what people found most effective and to ahve the best long term strength.. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:36:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It just occured to me that some may not know what LD50 means. The numbers I posted earlier were in fact for Rats/Mice, but LD50 is the lethal dosage (oral in this case) for 50% of the animals tested. On another note, while 1.75 g of pure aspirin is a lot (note that the average dosage used is in mg-milligrams), it doesnt take a whole lot to make it taste nasty. Thymol I am quite sure is the same way. So what ever we use to control mites, proper usage is critical. Those "boneheads" at the EPA/FDA/government while paranoind at times, I feel are that way for a reason. I think most really want to help us, and protect us too. JMHO Tim Morris South Central Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 18 Feb 2003 to 19 Feb 2003 (#2003-51) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >An old professor of >mine reminded all of us that drugs are poisons, the key to their use is to >look at the benefits vs the consequences. > All substances are poisons depending on use/exposure, even honey! Everything is made from "chemicals" and I agree that this disticntion between synthetic vs "natural" is silly. Substances should be evaluated on their own merit - not their origin (unless their origin/manufacture/harvest is unethical - another topic all together). I also find the justification that just because you can find substnaces in a hive, you can feel free to adminsitered hundreds to thousands times the amount for a treatment and call it "natural" is also nothing more than an excercise in semantics. (not to pick on formic acid - while I do not use it I am not necesarily againt the stuff - I have not evaluated the information for my self for this application) Look hard enough, and with a sensitive enough detector you might find almost anything in a hive - doesn't mean you necessarily want to jack up the amount of some of these materials. Doesn't mean you won't want to, but its presence there does not automatically mean that the stuff is benign and OK to use wholesale. Each product, synthetic or "natural", should be evaluated on its own merits. Keith "name for me a single substance that is, unnatural, i.e defies a natural law" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:19:21 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030217100121.00a0d660@postoffice4.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, We only received your e-mail message today, forwarded on to us by our distributor in France. In answer to your question, yes, the results from many, many trials in different countries [with beekeepers, universities and beekeeping institutes] show the efficacy of Apiguard to be an average of 93%; sometimes lower, especially in cooler climates or periods and often higher at temperatures above 25?C. Unlike using raw thymol or dry essential oil preparations Apiguard works better at higher temperatures. With dry preparations in Europe it is not advised to use them above around 22?C because of serious damage to young brood. We don't see that with Apiguard. I've been working on Apiguard for over 8 years and it is now registered as a veterinary medicine across Europe and in several other countries also. We do not want anyone to think that this is another Apistan, as it isn't. With Apistan you just put in the strips and forgot about it. (97-99% control most of the time). We cannot guarantee 97-99% all of the time with Apiguard but it will usually give reasonable control - well above that of coumaphos or tau-fluvalinate or amitraz where resistant mite populations are present. There is no recorded resistance to thymol so far, probably due to its modes of action, disrupting cellular processes; synthetic acaricides used today act on specific sites and as we've seen mites have been able to overcome these toxins to become effectively resistant. Not so with thymol (so far). In warm conditions, we commonly get 95-98% control of varroa with Apiguard. It also seems to work well on tracheal mites and although we cannot quantify it there is a definate effect on chalkbrood and foulbroods also. This will never be on the label but if you ever talk to beekeepers who have used Apiguard many will tell you that their colonies are very healthy afterwards with little sign of brood diseases. Best regards, Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:43:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have found crown staples work better than the brads. They seem to lend themselves to pulling out less than the brads. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Nailing frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith asked about nails/staples for frames. What is used in the tops and bottoms of frames is not all that important as the nails/staples only serve as a clamp for the glue. However, be absolutely certain to add at least one nail on each side of the top bar, going horizontally through the end bar and into the top bar. Those nails are the guts of the frame...I use two in each end! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:03:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: I have access to a brad nailer and a crown stapler and was wondering what people found most effective and to ahve the best long term strength.. I believe the staples are over the 18 guage brads. The brad driver is easier to use. The staple is tricky unless you have got a setup made for putting together frames such as several bee supply houses sell. Go slow at first and try to make each frame perfect as quite a bit of time is lost pulling nails/staples sticking out the side of the frame. Speed will come with skill. Put your frames together NOW. Not the day you need the frames! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:14:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max said: although we cannot quantify it there is a definate effect on chalkbrood and foulbroods also. I have heard of thymol products and formic acid users talking of less chalkbrood and nosema but NEVER of help with European and American foulbrood. Help with foulbrood would be a plus about Apiguard! Are we talking of curing active EFB or AFb similar to Terramycin Max? I would never believe Apiguard would kill AFB spores and I am sure neither would Max. I want to thank Max for coming on BEE-L and explaining Apiguard! To make better use off the beekeeping tools available to us we need to be informed as to the limitations and also ways to improve control so we can plan our treatments accordingly. Bob Stevens of "Betterbee" said at the ABF convention (K.C. 2003) that formic acid gel might be available in the fall. Bob Stevens is a member of BEE-L and might comment. We were told last year at the ABF convention in Savannah by Patti Elsen ( Westlaco Bee lab) that the lab was working on perfecting formic acid gel both in delivery methods and packaging. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:17:41 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Nailing frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Lloyd states, nail or staple going horizontally through the end bar and into the top bar. I use staples only and have never bothered with glue! In lifting out the brood frames, on the odd occasion the top bar will part from the side - usually if the side bar has been propolised in place ( this occurring if the frame is left too close to the brood box wall, removing the bee space). This happens 3 or 4 times over the season. The frames that I use and are habitually used here in France are Dadant format - therefore quite large and do test the staples. I consider it a pain to spend time in gluing and then stapling. During extraction - the size of the frames extracted are the half deep dadant format - and suffer not problems from being held only together with staples. Langstroth frames in an extractor - it is maybe wise to glue and staple, I have no experience in extracting this size of frame. Peter France Willows will be in flower in about one week in Centre west France. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:26:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use 18 gauge brads - four 1 1/4 inchers in the top bar... four 5/8 inch in the bottom - with no glue. I have never had a problem... and it is fast. Larry Krengel Marengo, Illinois USA I have access to a brad nailer and a crown stapler and > was wondering what people found most effective and to ahve the best long > term strength.. > > Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:21:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Disease? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Beekeepers, It's been a pretty cold winter here in the northeast. Today was the first day in 6 weeks the bees were out- 46F !! I trugged through the 3 feet of snow to check out the hives. I found one dead. The cluster seems to have seperated into 3 groups in the hive. There was still honey in the hive ( mostly on the sides - none on top of the bees. Some ( about 1/4) had their heads stuck in the cell (sign of stavation). But I found while removing them from the cells, they ALL have watery yellow guts. Is this any indication of a disease I should be looking for?? Worried about the rest of the hives, Don Westchester NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:49:25 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, I have found that the brad nailer (18ga./1.5 in brads) works better for me. The staple will split the bottom bar because of the groove. I also use glue painted on with a stubby paint brush. Glue adds a tremendous amount of strength to the joint. Takes more time, but worth it in the long haul. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:03:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:31:47 -0500 Keith Benson writes: > (snip)....I have access to a brad nailer and a crown stapler > and was wondering what people found most effective .... Keith; I use both and always glue all the joints. My first investment away from hammer and nails was a small compressor and a brad nailer. This worked just fine and I would still be using this nailer exclusively except I purchased an air driven stapler to fasten the foundation wedge into place because the nails were just too long. The stapler came supplied with a package of 1-1/4 inch crown staples that worked just fine assembling the frames. The end result is economics in both time and money. Using the staples I get two 'nails' in one... quicker to build and cheaper to buy. I still reserve the nailer for that critical connection horizontally through the side of the end bar into the top bar. These two points are critical for the strength and life expectancy of your wooden frames. Rick Leber Beekeeping and Honey Production since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home' Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:12:54 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Apiguard and foulbroods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bob & All, Following on from your message, we have seen obvious decreases in the incidence of both European and American foulbrood in colonies treated with Apiguard over time. It's extremely difficult to quantify but we've had many independent responses from beekeepers both professional and hobbyists here in the UK, in France, Italy and in North Africa in particular who have used Apiguard over two or three seasons. They say the bees are really healthy and vigorous. Thymol is a natural bacteriocide, fungicide, acaricide and at high doses, insecticide. In addition it seems that the bees clean the hive more efficiently in the presence of Apiguard gel - they want to get rid of it and at the same time they end up doing a scouring job of the brood frames. Devious I know, getting them to do all that extra work but it wasn't planned like that! Apiguard is NOT a treatment for chalkbrood or for either European or American Foulbrood; it often helps but it should not be relied upon for complete control of brood diseases. The extent of control is also dependent on the activity and behaviour of the adult bees. Bee activity and thymol sublimation from the gel matrix are both partly affected by environmental temperature. Humidity may also come into it but in the numerous trials we've done so far there is no clear link with humidity alone. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard, etc. Peter said: However, if it doesn't work I think people should be clear about this. Bob: Every chemical put on the market to control varroa works. The problem I am trying to point out is you can not claim a high effacy for products which are temperature and humidity dependent in every situation. Peter: Whether a product "works" is not simply a matter of whether it kills mites (though I question whether *every* product does even this. Copper salts?) Anyway, it is not so hard to find something that kills mites, but it must also not harm the bees and honey. Early reports on thymol were not all that good. One study showed 98% mite kill, but 50% of the hives died over winter compared with 10% in the control group. ("Test with 'Api-Life-VAR' for varroa", R. Moosebeckhofer. 1995) Other problems associated with thymol include stupefied bees, robbing, and absconding. And as has been noted, thymol smells very bad and can taint the honey. ("Ecological varroa control", Mariano Pascual. 1999) Unless these problems are eliminated, it can't be said that "it works". pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:10:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Banning Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> mea@ONTHEFARM.COM 02/19/03 01:48PM >>> >The Aurora Sentinel recently printed an article about the City Council >Committee meeting about banning bees in residential areas of the city. > >http://www.zwire.com/site/News.cfm?BRD=1947&dept_id=168651&newsid=7030971&PAG=461&rfi=9 Anyone with an interest in the subject of "Local Ordinances Banning Beekeeping" ought to read the readers' opinions related to this article. There are 25 now, and they keep getting better and better. Many of the the arguments are some of the most outstanding I have ever seen. These opinions would be a great resource to anyone wanting to fight a beekeeping ban in their local community. By the way, every opinion is in favor of allowing beekeeping and against the ban, yet most express sympathy towards the lady with the allergy (in other words, they are polite). Many of the arguments are "sterling" (as in "the value of sterling silver"). Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:48:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: genome mapping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" National news today, just a reminder that mapping a genome doesn't necessarily provide a quick fix. Not nice to fool mother Nature: http://www.msnbc.com/news/875283.asp?cp1=1 Cheers Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Nailing Frames To ALL, Much is being said about this subject, and rightfully so. Teaching new beekeepers how to properly put together frames is an important task of the first lessons in beekeeping. Most of the posts in this thread agree on the first 4 nails through the top-bar into the end pieces and the second set of 4 nails into the end piece from the bottom bar. Most posts also agree that eighteen(18)gauge 1 and 1/4 inch brads or staples may be substituted for 1 and 1/4 inch nails. The additional two (2) nails, be it brads, nails or a single staple on each side nailed parallel to the top bar and into the top bar from the end piece, is of utmost importance to the longevity of the frame. Just as important is the use of glue. IMO the type of glue to use is critical; use a waterproof or water-resistant glue such as Tite Bond II. When frames are cleaned and de-waxed by the Hot Waterbath method ordinary glue will no longer hold. Through the years nails and staples will deteriorate due to moisture and handling, here glue serves the purpose of keeping the structure (the frame) unitized and rigid which helps to reduce bending and weakening of the frame reserving strength over its lifetime. Frames are critical to the hive, they go through much handling and abuse. Frames provide the structural support for foundation, brood, and stores. If they are assembled in a proper manner, they will last through many years of service. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to everyone for the options/opinions as I move from a hammer to something more automated. FWIW - the thing that spurred this question was the Porter Cable brad-nailer/copressor combo pac that is now available at HD and other hardware stores. Everything you need to nail your hand to a board in one package for $209. Sounds like I can use either brads or pick up a crown stapler and have at it. May not be as romantic as whacking away with a tack hammer - but I can use the time saved elswhere. Thanks everyone! Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:18:06 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Owen Watson Subject: Re: Nailing Frames In-Reply-To: <200302211642.h1LFgNq0013159@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've had great success at using screws: 2" Twinfast from the top, 1" from the bottom, and it is really strong. Twinfasts have a very thin body so they're less likely to split the wood, but it's always worth boring a pilot hole. -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Max Watkins writes In answer to your question, yes, the results from many, many trials in different countries [with beekeepers, universities and beekeeping institutes] show the efficacy of Apiguard to be an average of 93%; sometimes lower, especially in cooler climates or periods and often higher at temperatures above 25C. * Still no mention of actual references to actual reports. Please provide the information requested. -- Peter Borst :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:48:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Nailing Frames In-Reply-To: <3E5661CB.6010005@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:28 PM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote: Keith: Years of experience with student helpers -- staples hold better, brads are less likely to blow out the side of the wood, especially with an inexperienced operator. Best thing, build a jig to keep parts aligned and keep the nail/staple gun square to the frame and centered. As per glue, you need to use a water-resistant glue. Standard issue carpenter's white/yellow glue is worthless in the humid environs of a beehive. Lots of people use "glue", but using the wrong one is a waste of time and money. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::