From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:28:20 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_OEM_OBFU,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD8849067 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeW011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0303B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 143126 Lines: 3188 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:26:37 +1100 Reply-To: Bindaree Bee Supplies Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bindaree Bee Supplies Organization: Bindaree Bee Supplies Subject: Re: Finding a bee suit for a child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill and Cath are searching for a bee suit for their 3 year old daughter. Bindaree Bee Supplies has child bee suits made in New Zealand in sizes 4, 6, 8 and 10. There are details and photos on the website. Richard Johnston Bindaree Bee Supplies http://www.bindaree.com.au 61 2 6281 2111 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:55:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Fisher writes: " In specific, use of Formic Acid (assuming careful handling and following of OSHA regulations) would be nearly impossible to "prosecute", given the lack of "a cause of action" in the form of a violation of some existing regulation." OK, thats good enough for me, so where can I get some 65% Formic Acid to use as a deoderant for my hives Without going to Canada and without having to go back to college to get a degree in how to use formic acid? Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Finding a bee suit for a child In-Reply-To: <001f01c2e4d0$8cc5d0e0$d8c4fea9@a3a09789> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > You might spend some time asking experienced >beekeepers and research people about the dangers of an anaphylactic reaction >if a person is exposed to bee venom but never stung. It appears that >beekeepers' family members have a higher than average serious reaction to >bee stings than does the general population. This happened in the case of my daughter. If we didn't live 15 minutes from the hospital, we might have lost her. She used to go to bee yards with me, and ride in my truck to and from school every day. She loved helping with extracting. She only got stung once or twice. Then, one evening while doing homework with her, she was stung on the calf. In 5 minutes she was cherry red from head to toe. The doctors saved her with epineprin and benedryl. She is now in venom therapy...last injection was equivalent of three stings. This has taken 2 1/2 years of venom injections. She has had to take zyrtec and prednisone before each treatment. The plan is to decrease the drugs slowly until she can stand the stings without them. If you are going to expose your little daughter to bee venom, without actually being stung, you are asking for trouble. The allergist told me that in the general public, allergy rates to bee venom are 1 in 100 - 200. In beekeeping families, that rate goes to 1 in 10. I would suggest one of two options: 1. Don't expose her. Wash your bee clothes so she isn't exposed to bee proteins. Keep her suit and yours clean. 2. If you want her there, exposed to bee proteins as you are, she must receive regular stings. At three, I would think this would turn her off to the joys of beekeeping. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:01:59 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Finding a bee suit for a child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excuse me for copping an attitude, BUT... What a bunch of over-protective post-nuclear parents! Back when I was a child, (in the very dim past when Kennedy was in the White House) bees had not yet become an endangered species. All the kids would play barefoot during the summer, which resulted in at least one stepped on bee (or bumble bee) per week, and one stung child per week. No one died. No one went into anaphylactic shock. Our mothers did not even tell us about quickly removing stingers. Getting stung was simply something that happened, and was no more scary than skinning one's knee, stubbing one's toe, or falling down. Anyone who stepped on a bee was soon back at play, still barefoot. For some reason, the current crop of parents are unwilling to allow their kids to BE kids to the extent of minor bumps, scrapes, and bruises. Horror of horrors, some of us even broke bones when we fell off bikes, fell off skateboards, fell from trees, or made a bad slide into 2nd base. It was part of growing up. Just keep the kids and guests at a reasonable distance from the hives, or put a veil and long sleeved clothing on them if they want to "get close". The key point for kids and guests is to be taught to recognize the "ping" of a bee flying directly into their veil. When/if that happens, they need to retreat a bit. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:16:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill & cathy brown Subject: Re: Finding a bee suit for a child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those who have responded to my "child bee suit" inquiry: Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, good and bad, with children and beekeeping. I have learned much more about the down-side of children and bee venom. I must say that I was not aware that exposure to bee venom without stings can still pose a serious threat to my daughter's safety. I would like very much for my little girl to experience the labor and love that is involved with caring for bees, but not at the expense of her health... I would like to know, though, at what age does the risk of anaphylactic shock wane? Are there other options besides intentionally stinging to produce a tolerance to venom? After hearing about Michael Palmer's experience, I will certainly insure that I at least have a bottle of Benedryl in my bee yard supplies at all times. My intention was not that my daughter be working hives, just that she would be able to observe the work. It sounds as though even observation poses a serious risk, and my wife and I are reconsidering our expectations of having our little one around. I would like my daughter to work with us someday... Does anyone have any input as to when that should be? I know that many of you represent multiple generations of beekeepers. At what age did your parents put you to work? If Tim Vaughan should read this, I'd like to hear at what age he started his kids out beekeeping (I have read in ABJ that he has quite a few kids) and what precautions he has taken to protect his kids.. Once again, thank you to all who replied to my inquiry. Your advise is well received and appreciated. I did buy a bee suit for my daughter yesterday from Dadant in Chico, CA (thanks John) but I think I'll put it away until such a time that she can use it without dire health risks... Happy Beekeeping! Bill Brown Willits, California :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:20:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Finding a bee suit for a child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Get some liquid Benedryl, as it works faster than a pill. I carry benedryl in my pocket. I have an Epi-Pen in the house in case of emergency. This is for me if I should have a reaction needing the strong medication, or for a vistor. Your doctor will give you one. Just tell her you need one as you are a beekeeper. Peace of mind is worth a lot! kathy cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:38:40 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Apimondia in Slovenia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello fellow beekeepers. I have a sweet memory flashback to the Apimondia in Vancouver BC, Canada where some Bee-l people was meeting and having some nice hours together. I wonder if this could happen again on the forthcoming Apimondia meeting in Slovenia. If people from this mailing list is going for this big beekeeper rendezvous :) Then we might set of an evening for a saying hello meeting. I will then,if there is interest for this, see if I can get it organized. I myself will bee there with my laptop and and all what I have ceated of software for the beekeeping so that you have a chance to pick on mee and I can get some respond making it more usefull for the beekeeping community. I have a wish for you. My software is capable of beeing multilingual, But after the new stuff is added to the software I need some already in old softeware present languages to be retranslated so as much people as possible can get the software in their language. I Know that for some of you the beekeeping season is already full running, but i have a hope that somebody will help me out. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail : apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:30:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leslie Dodd Subject: Re Long Deep Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I did manage to talk to Robin Dartington yesterday. His email is : gray.dartington@dial.pipex.com There is a new book "Construction Information for Dartington Hives" this has detailed drawings for the basic hive and a couple of variations, however this is based on the 14"x12" British Deep. I guess non-uk builders would have to rework it a tad! The book that covers the rational and Robins experiences over 20+ years is "New Beekeeping in a Long Deep Hive", this would be of use to non uk readers. If anyone wants to contact Robin he is more than happy to sort out postage etc. Have fun. Les :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:26:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: FGMO lectures in Ireland Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Comments: cc: FGMOBeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All So far upwards of 220 beekeepers in Ireland have heard the lecture, and great interest has been shown in the alternative treatments. Indeed I found that many beekeepers were using some of these treatments. The lecture consists of detailed information on all varroa treatments. I give fair wind to the synthetic chemicals, pointing out as I do with all treatments, both the advantages and disadvantages. Indeed I was complimented recently by Brendan Coughlan who said that I gave an absolutely fair account of all treatments. I got similar approval recently also from other associations. Possibly the greatest interest has been shown in FGMO, due to its use during the honey season, and this is even more evident since the article in the February issue of An Beachaire - which is a copy of an article in the January edition of The American Bee Journal. And when a journal as prestigious as the ABJ runs an article on FGMO it has certainly gained much support. Many foggers have now been ordered and received by Irish beekeepers so we can expect a forward surge in the experience of using this treatment this year. Brendan Coughlan who is the Education Officer of FIBKA has recently taken delivery of his fogger - I am just back from a lecture to the Galway Beekeepers Association. I have got many phone calls regarding how to obtain a Burgess Fogger and I show below contact information from the lecture handout. I also show information on the cotton cords which are used with the fogger to kill the mites. Full details are in the February issue of 'An Beachaire'. Also some data on mite counts etc is shown below which may be of interest. If you would like your association to hear this lecture, which is now considered to be one of the most informative lectures on varroa available in this country, please e mail me at cssl@iol.ie or call me at (01) 289 9940 (+353 1 289 9940) Sincerely Tom Barrett +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Appendix 2 - Burgess Propane Insect Fogger - Model 1443 Fogger Source Inquiry on the Internet shows that the following companies supply the Burgess Propane Insect Fogger. http://robertstool.com:81/2002website/itm10339.htm IMA Tool Distributors Division 280 Midland Avenue, Saddle Brook, New Jersey, 07663 United States of America Tel: 201-791-8787 Fax: 201-791-1709 E mail: strautner@robertstool.com Burgess Products, 23 Garden Street, New York Mills, NY 13517 GAS SUPPLY Sold under the trade name in the UK as Bernzomatic(http://www.bernzomatic.com/propane.htm). Available from B&Q superstore, Boucher Road, Belfast. Cost £3.50 / 400gram bottle disposable (sterling) They do have a web site (www.diy.com). This information is from a Northern Ireland beekeeper - and is given as received. Propane Cylinders can be obtained at DUBLIN PROVIDERS LTD, KILL LANE, DUBLIN for EURO 8.00 Appendix 3 - Cotton Cords Preparation of the emulsion and the 'cords' The ingredients for the emulsion are as follows: 500 mls food grade mineral oil 225 grams bees wax 300 grams honey Sixty 500 mm long by 8mm diameter cotton cords. (Some beekeepers have used the strands of cotton used in making mops, though I feel that they are not thick enough if used singly.) The procedure for making the emulsion is: heat the food grade mineral oil in a metal container, melt bees wax and add to the heated mineral oil. Remove the container from the heat source and add the honey and cords. Stir with a wooden spoon to allow the cords to soak well. Allow the emulsion to cool. Exercise extreme care in heating these inflammable materials. Molten bees wax and heated FGMO are liable to cause a fire. Ensure that you stand over them while heating them and ignore your telephone Treatment with the emulsion. For each brood chamber, insert two pieces of the emulsion soaked cords, each a half a meter long (20 inches approx.), on top of the brood frames under the Queen Excluder (if one is used). Also place two cords on each honey super if the colony is strong. The reason for placing cords on the honey supers is that the mites do fall off and climb back on the foraging bees and they are then liable to be carried up into the supers..The cords are replaced when they are removed by the bees. Thus the cords are a means of continuously dispersing the FGMO throughout the hive. Appendix 4 - Converting mite count to estimated number of mites in a colony (Courtesy MAFF UK). Convert fallen varroa on insert in an OMF. Multiply the mites counted by the multiplier to calculate the total mites in the colony. MONTHMULTIPLIER JAN 400 FEB 400 MAR 100 APR 100 MAY 30 JUN 30 JUL 30 AUG 30 SEP 100 OCT 100 NOV 400 DEC 400 March, April, September, October: Daily mite fall X 100 = Estimated number of mites. This number is considered much more of an approximation than the others because of rather large bee population shifts during both spring and autumn. Converting sealed drone brood: Number of sealed drone cells infested/Number of drone cells sampled X Number of sealed drones cells in a colony X 10 = Estimated number of mites in summer. Converting sealed worker brood: Number of sealed worker cells infested/Number of worker cells sampled X Number of sealed worker cells in a colony X 1.8 = Estimated number of mites in summer. Converting mites on bees in summer: Number of adult bees infested/number of bees sampled X Total bees in colony X 2.9 = Estimated number of mites in summer. Converting mites on bees in winter: Number of adult bees infested/number of bees sampled X Total bees in colony = Estimated number of mites in winter. Thresholds - the level of mites in a colony which requires action by the beekeeper. ABJ May 2002. Low tolerance for colony loss (and willing to use a miticide) - 20 mites per day. High tolerance for colony loss (and are reluctant to use a miticide) - 100 mites per day. At this time there is no universal threshold number. In the southeastern USA Delaplane and Hood (1999) have estimated a treatment threshold from 59 to 187 mites. This represents 3100 to 4200 mites in a colony. NB: Use all of the information in this handout at your own risk. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:51:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bryan Butler Subject: Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the back lovers - another version of a horizontal hive is the = Jackson Horizontal Hive out of South Africa. You can see pictures of = their hives on the web and they are very good about talking with you and = modifying their hives for European or African bees. The hive body is = very light and can be hung at any height making working on it very = easy.It would take any type of frame although it is primarily meant for = a top bar type. Traditional frames could be easily modifed to have a = solid top and traditional sides and bottom so that would not be a = problem. Check out Jackson Horizontal Hive and rupertshoney.co.za on the web for = more information. They have solved many of the problems and run more = than 400 Langstroth hives still in conjunction with several hundred of = their own version. They are getting 30% more production from the new = hives so are switching over steadily. Good luck Bryan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:23:21 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Children and bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our daughter was stung and not particularly concerned since she had seen her parents work with bees. We didn't know about it until she said she was "short of breath" and was going to go outside. She must have been about 12 at the time. My wife happened to take notice, inquired, and we hustled her off to the doctor. We had some serious discussions about what to do, including getting rid of all the bees. We finally decided that there was no way she could totally avoid bees, whether we kept them or not. She took the treatment for some time. She was old enough that we didn't have to worry about her not understanding the danger. We kept the hives away from the area around the house, and she had no desire to go where they were. She had another experience later but we all knew what to do and look for. The experience has made me very cautious about exposing young children to stings. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:50:44 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Mite "Thresholds", the Loch Ness Monster, and other myths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent post to this list echoed what may well be one of the most dangerous myths ever to delude beekeepers. > "Thresholds - the level of mites in a colony which requires > action by the beekeeper...." The fallacy of placing one's faith in a "threshold" is very basic. There simply is no such animal. The only possible way to know if mites are "a problem" for any specific colony is to have more than one "count" for the colony. While an ongoing set of counts, taken at regular intervals would be ideal, at minimum, one wants to have the ability to answer the question "are there more mites than last time?" We all have "stronger" and "weaker" hives. Think about that for a moment, and realize that no single number can apply to both. The differences in total population, capped brood cells, and so on renders any single arbitrary "threshold number" useless. Worse than useless, it kills colonies that might be saved. The only way to tell if mites are (becoming) a problem is to track the DIFFERENCE between "last time" and "now", assuming that reasonably "repeatable procedures" are used to sample and test for mites. (And I don't care which test method you use, as long as you pick one, and stick with it.) > "In the southeastern USA Delaplane and Hood (1999) have > estimated a treatment threshold from 59 to 187 mites. > This represents 3100 to 4200 mites in a colony. The sad thing is that they did say this. One is forced to wonder how far each of their arms had to be bent behind their backs before they coughed up a number. The problem they faced was that they were pressured by lazy beekeepers. The lazy beekeepers wanted to do ONE mite test, and use it to make a decision about treatment. Most all quantum physics courses cover Heisenberg and his "Uncertainty Principle". The short, plain English version is that one can EITHER measure the velocity of a particle, or its position, but never both at the same time. Lucky for us, keeping bees requires no knowledge of quantum physics, but be aware that we have our own "Uncertainty Principle", and it applies directly to mites. It also has wide-ranging applications in other practical aspects of life. It goes something like this: One number lacks context, and is useless. Two numbers can be compared. With three, you have a trend. With six, you get egg-roll. With numbers, a pencil, and a notebook, you have "IPM" jim (who may have seen SOMETHING in Loch Ness, but had enjoyed too much single-malt to be certain) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:56:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Finding a bee suit for a child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Brown asked: >At what age did you begin their > indentured servitude? Three is a good age to begin. I bought my son a beesuit for his third birthday and had him by my side all summer. What you will also need is a good box for the little girl to stand on so she'll be able to get a good view into the hive. Usually, the three-year-old beekeeper will lose interest in working the hives before you do, and find new sides to your apiary that you never thought of. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 21:26:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Recent Topics at honeybeeworld MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since March 1 * Patty feeding * AFB detection by honey sampling * OTC residue concerns in the EU * Canada bee importations * Tracheal detection * The positive side of the bioterrorism scare * Apache2 and Perl * Selling bees and hives * Server logs * Few interesting links * Personal stuff * A great free online virus scan * Honeybeeworld forum (ask allen) * More stuff allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:28:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Mite "Thresholds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Jim makes excellent points but I need to interject and perhaps explain the word "threshold" as explained to me by several of the worlds most renown bee researchers. I was skeptical at first till I saw "threshold " first hand with a yard of dead bees. Dr. Delaplane at Savannah explained that the *figures* presented in the post applied to an *average* strength hive in *fall* in Georgia with a certain amount of leeway ( tests taken after most brood rearing had stopped). I have tried to pin Dr. Marion Ellis down several times ( Savannah, Keokuk and K.C.) on exact numbers for threshold but he points out the many factors which can effect "threshold" but he did agree Dr. Delaplane's figures would be in a range he might suggest but Dr. Ellis prefers sugar rolls done directly from a brood comb. Definition of the word "threshold" as used by beekeepers & researchers doing testing varies. Because the word is tossed around and misused by many problems exist. When I do testing and I am standing at the hive with another beekeeper reading the results from a roll or mite drop I read the number of varroa and if in a certain range (determined by my past varroa testing over the years) I simply say . !. the hive needs treatment 2. the treatment needs not be done and checked again in the fall or spring 3. The varroa load is what I consider to be over "threshold" and no treatment will save the colony. Comment on number three: When varroa first hit I found a yard (which was one of my best yards for honey production) had produced zero honey and all the brood nests had dwindled down to about four frames of brood and bees. I did testing and filled the sticky boards with varroa. I was told by our state inspector that the hives although queenright and with several frames of brood were above "threshold" (in his opinion based on the number of varroa on the sticky board) and would die regardless of use of a 98% chemical strip ( Apistan at the time). As usual I had to see for myself so I wasted money and put in strips. I showed my sticky boards to my close friend Cecil Sweeny at Mid-Con Agrimarketing as I purchased the strips. Cecil told me the same as our bee inspector. All of the hive died as both had said they would. > "Thresholds - the level of mites in a colony which requires > action by the beekeeper...." I do not see the above as an inaccurate statement but add that there are at least two "thresholds" or *points* in testing at which decisions need to be made. Jim said: The fallacy of placing one's faith in a "threshold" is very basic. There simply is no such animal. Crude as varroa testing is the methods presented by our bee researchers is all we have got at present time. Testing in my opinion beats the other options which are. 1. treat all hives because your bee supply house says to. 2. treat all your hives because the beekeeper across town is treating all his hives. 3. use a "snake oil" treatment which has no sound research done behind it you read about on the internet without testing the method on only a few of your hives first. THOUSANDS of hives were lost by beekeepers using unpoven methods talked about in the halls of bee meetings in the early ninety's. Allmost all were proven through research published in ABJ & Bee Culture to have little if any varroa control. "Threshold" exists for me but there are many "thresholds" to consider with testing. The two MAIN *points* or "thresholds" to consider in testing are. 1. the number figure you the beekeeper figure is the correct number for you to consider a mite treatment. In other words treat or leave untreated. 2. the number of varroa found in the sample which in your opinion would be over "threshold" and treatment would not correct the varroa infestation and save the hive. Treatment would not only be a waste of money but those hives unable to defend themselves would further spread varroa by being robbed out. Please do not ask me to put an exact number for varroa found in a sample for "Threshold" .As Jim pointed out the number might not be correct for your area and hives. I do agree with Dr. Delaplanes figures posted that generally speaking varroa counts on sticky boards in the range given would to me indicate treatment is needed even in our area in late fall. I applaud Dr. Delaplane for giving the beekeepers trying to learn about testing for varroa figures an idea of figures for when to treat. I personally consider the numbers given in the ABJ article high for my area and would consider treatment when even half the low number of varroa (Delaplane ABJ article) were found in September but only my opinion. I do still recommend the book "Mites Of The Honey Bee" by Thomas C. Webster & and Keith S. Delaplane and published by Dadant. Many on the list have most likely seen the adds ran by Dadant with me endorsing the book in the American Bee Journal. My name is used without payment to me to help beekeepers to consider buying the book and learning about both varroa & and tracheal mites. If you are only going to buy one book on varroa the above book is the book to buy. 280 pages of useful mite information. One chapter on mite biology. Eight chapters on tracheal mites. Eight chapters on varroa and one chapter on other mite species. In Savannah when I last spoke to Dr. Delaplane and he signed a copy of the book for me Dr. Delaplane admitted during the two years the book was being published new things about varroa were being learned so the book was slightly outdated when published. I agreed but still the best mite book (in my opinion) available today. Money well spent! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:21:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee-Folks and Equipment Manufacturers: According to my limited observations, based mostly on looking at the pictures of long hives available on the net and reading descriptions therein, it appears that long hives can be great if they can further accommodate the following features: EXPANDABILITY: Could it be expandable from, say, five-nuc-frame holder to five hundred, if so desired, by a simple “add-on” feature? The rigidity of a fixed size *could* be a drawback, for instance, during a heavy flow. Sure, one can constantly pull out frames, but I am just too lazy, besides they must be riped, too. DIVIDER: Could it hold more that one colony with a simple breathable divider with separate entrances? Such feature could be bad for disease propagation but great to winter a weak colony, by putting the trough in between others: one can stack them up to share the warmth. This could be the easiest of the three. WEIGHT: Since reducing weight is our primary goal here-—to save our back—- could we not incorporate the Styrofoam hive material? We have already talked about this in an earlier thread: plastic [Styrofoam] vs. wooden hive. If you can come up with such innovation, I would love to switch, too; in the meantime, though, I will keep at my elevator-pushups and weight- training to save my back. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Mite "Thresholds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob made good points, as we all expect him to: > Dr. Delaplane at Savannah explained that the *figures* presented > in the post applied to an *average* strength hive... And what makes an "average" strength hive? The only consistent metric I have seen for measuring strength is "number of frames of brood". What might have been more useful would have been: a) A set of "threshold for a colony with x frames of brood" type figures. (Some sort of "weak", "normal", and "strong" differentiation.) b) Some sort of "delta brood" versus "delta mites" figures, as this is the only way to estimate mites "getting out of hand" versus a mite population that has merely increased numerically, and not excessively in contrast to bee population growth. Dunno why Delaplane and Hood did not qualify their data this way, since they were certain to have a mix of "strong", "average", and "weak" hives in their dataset. > ...in *fall* in Georgia with a certain amount of leeway ( tests taken > after most brood rearing had stopped). Wait until AFTER brood rearing stops to test for mites? Isn't that just a bit late in the game? By then, any colonies with serious varroa infestation are dead or doomed, and the varroa population clearly cannot further increase. The surviving colonies, lacking brood, would be difficult to "size" on anything other than a gestalt basis (number of top bars covered with bees?). I was under the impression that the mission-critical decision to make comes well before fall, and involves pulling a colony out of production to "save" it. This decision must be made well prior to harvest, when varroa counts are ramping up to a serious level in contrast to the colony bee population, or ramping up faster than any increase in bee population could explain away. Of course, at the current price of honey, one is forced to wonder where the financial "break-even" point has moved, where leaving colonies in production, and then replacing varroa kills with fall splits would be "smarter management". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:12:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite "Thresholds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are moving into a conversation which Jim & I might get into but is complicated for many hobby beekeepers to understand and the reason in my opinion Delaplane and Hood gave the figures the way they did. Jim is of course correct in his thoughts on the subject but makes the whole testing scenario seem intimidating. Many times I spend a couple hours going over and over testing before my fellow beekeeper understands. Jim said: Dunno why Delaplane and Hood did not qualify their data this way, since they were certain to have a mix of "strong", "average", and "weak" hives in their dataset. I believe simplicity to be the reason as both Delaplane & Hood are well aware of what you are saying. Bob posted: > ...in *fall* in Georgia with a certain amount of leeway ( tests taken > after most brood rearing had stopped). Jim said: Wait until AFTER brood rearing stops to test for mites? I was under the impression that the figures in the ABJ article were for the above fall in Georgia situation BUT any time of the year you see mite drop in the levels D& H. talk about treatment needs assessed. It is very hard to get (in my opinion) an accurate varroa count in a strong hive when large scale brood rearing is going on *because* of the amount of varroa in sealed cells. In our area the first week of September gives an accurate varroa count *unless* the fall flow is heavy causing large scale brood rearing. The best varroa testing is rather primative but all we have got to use. Most varroa researchers use different tests at different times of the year to determine varroa load. I do myself. Jim said: Isn't that just a bit late in the game? It might be if we are forced to use a temperature dependent chemical BUT NOT when using a 98% control chemical strip. Those beekeepers which have been involved with varroa from the start realize another scenario which can kick the beekeepers butt. Varroa infestation coming from your bees robbing varroa infested neighbors hives. Many beekeepers had to treat for varroa three times in a year to save hives when varroa first hit. Drones & workers were hitting landing boards with 5 and up mature fertile varroa on their backs. Varroa infestation from robbing can hit threshold in a short period of time. Hope the in-depth discussion above does not discourage hobby beekeepers from testing. Sounds overwhelming but really not when you take the time to understand testing procedures and analysis. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? I heard from one of my hive 'landlords' that I need to move the two hives there across the lot. The site is in Carnation, WA about an hour from my homebase, south of Seattle, so I would prefer to make this a onetime move. Right now, the hives are about 40 feet apart on the north end of a 100 x 150 ft lot. I am planning on putting them within a couple feet of each other in order to keep them out of sight of the casual passerby. One hive is 4 deep boxes with lots of bees, the other is 3 mediums deep - not weak, but nowhere near as many foragers yet (I haven't done more than a quick peek under the cover). Both colonies are up on cement blocks - and will be moved to a new wooden stand I am putting together. I need to make this move by myself - so I am wondering - is there any way to strap a hive together and truck (rental dolly?) them over to the new location? If I move them at nightfall, will they re-orient themselves? Would you put a "catcher-nuc" between the two old locations? Thanks for listening. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:54:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Mite "Thresholds" In-Reply-To: <001101c2e75a$8dbde320$18ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001101c2e75a$8dbde320$18ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >It is very hard to get (in my opinion) an accurate varroa count in a strong >hive when large scale brood rearing is going on *because* of the amount of >varroa in sealed cells. Advice from CSL/DEFRA (Bee Inspection, testing and research, UK) is to multiply the daily mite fall by 30 to get a reasonable estimate of the total mite population during brood rearing; 400 without brood - once everything has settled. It seems reasonable enough, when high effectiveness treatments are used, the figures are reasonably close (accurate is a relative term - 20% or even 30% would be good enough?). The factors should be reasonably stable so long as we are in a steady- ish state, not just at the start of any rapid rise in brood, nor at the finish of all brood rearing. The in-between times are much more difficult as the multiplying factor is between 30 and 400, too wide a variation to trust during transition times - hence the very approximate 100x suggested. The 30x allows for mites in the cells. How you get a threshold is another matter. The size of the colony and its susceptibility to viruses are variables. Our Regional Bee Inspector suggested (for a typical UK colony) that we revise down the previously recommended threshold of 2500 to 1000. I will follow up the reasoning. The original threshold was based on research which showed an increasing probability of colony demise above 2500. Presumably they are now finding the demise occurring at 1000 mites. The earlier estimate was in earlier days - perhaps the viruses are now endemic and kick in earlier. Our RBO has given us a table for urgent treatment, delayed or less potent treatment and no treatment. One figure given was that if there were more than 15% drone brood with mites, we should use an appropriate treatment immediately. This seems to be getting towards your approach, where, if my memory serves me, Bob, you referred a year or two ago to % mites being a better guide to the need for treatment. Absolute numbers are not reliable, since they must be interpreted. % cells infested is perhaps rather more reliable. I hope this helps the discussion. Thank you all for the ideas. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:33:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Milt, It would be nice if bees could be moved this short distance and call it their "new" home; but it does not work that way. Once a bee establishes POINT A as her home, she will always return to THAT SPOT even if there is no hive there, and just die there. The only way to relocate bees to any new location irrespective of whether the distance involved is only 5-10 feet, half mile, or even up to 3 miles is to move the hive to a new location that is GREATER than 3 miles away from the original location, leave it on that "temporary" location for 30 days, and then you can return it to the NEW SPOT that you wanted. Read any bee book, or ask any honey bee RESEARCHER, and you will find that what I just wrote is very factual. There is a time honored saying "A hive of bees can be moved less than 2 feet or over 3 miles, but nothing in between". Bees do not have a "learning, thinking" mind like yours, but have a pre-fixed mind provided them by nature to do all the things that they were designed to do living in the wilds of nature. After the worker emerges from her cell, she does 100% inside hive work for the first week or ten days of her life and might take a few play flights around the hive to become slightly oriented with the close by vicinity. When she becomes 19 days old, she ceases her hive duty work and becomes a forager for honey and pollen at a distance as far as 3 miles from the hive, and she dies just 3 weeks later. She does not IDENTIFY her hive by its size, color, or number on it, but identifies it by the "SPOT OF EARTH" the hive was on IN REFERENCE TO ALL THE OTHER THINGS AROUND THAT SPOT. Hence, if you move that hive just 5 feet, the returning bees canNOT find it, and will cluster around the original spot and just die there. I strongly suggest that you do some reading in a good book; and books written more than about 10 years ago are really becoming obsolete because of so many new findings in the last 20 years like mites, pheromones, resistant diseases, Africanized bees, hygienic behavior, SMR queens, IPM, and much more. I would recommend THE BEGINNERS HANDBOOK, 3rd Edition of April 1998, by Dr. Diana Sammataro and the "bible", THE HIVE AND HONEY BEE, the EXTENSIVELY REVISED EDITION of 1992, by 35 of Americas finest bee scientists and bee researchers, published by Dadant I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 71st year of beekeeping near Washington, DC Author of George's monthly PINK PAGES @ www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html Author of American Beekeeping Federation NewsLetter Hobbyist Tips Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Assn. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:27:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite "Thresholds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, Excellent post James! I agree with the points made and respect the advice of the CSL/DEFRA. but will add a couple opinions. James said: Advice from CSL/DEFRA (Bee Inspection, testing and research, UK) is to multiply the daily mite fall by 30 to get a reasonable estimate of the total mite population during brood rearing; 400 without brood - once everything has settled. The above figures cover all bases but the range is too wide in my opinion for the average beekeeper ( and certainly the commercial beekeeper dealing with thousands of hives) and I will tell you why. Reason is to use the above figures you need (as Jim pointed out in his post) the figure for the amount of brood. To get the brood number figure one has to disassemble much of the hive. The whole purpose of sticky board tests is *you do not need to open the hive* and the draw back is you need to make two trips to the apiary. With a *roll* you can get a better idea of the amount of brood but the hive needs opened and at least one frame pulled (to be done correctly). There are those researchers which say that you multiply the natural mite drop after brood rearing by 200. If so then a figure of 400 dead varroa on a sticky board in 24 hours would indicate a varroa population of 80,000 . Hmmm. James said: How you get a threshold is another matter. The size of the colony and its susceptibility to viruses are variables. Our Regional Bee Inspector suggested (for a typical UK colony) that we revise down the previously recommended threshold of 2500 to 1000. Surely you are not talking about the number of natural fall mites on the sticky board but the amount of varroa in the hive? James said: - perhaps the viruses are now endemic and kick in earlier. Bringing viruses into the issue or (P.M.S.) as we call the virus situation brought on by advance stages of varroa infestation (U.S.A.) opens another can of worms. Waiting for two high a varroa infestation to treat invites viruses (in my opinion). James said: Our RBO has given us a table for urgent treatment, delayed or less potent treatment and no treatment. One figure given was that if there were more than 15% drone brood with mites, we should use an appropriate treatment immediately. Sounds primative as all drone brood would have to be opened and a count made to figure a percentage and the drone brood could be on each frame of the hive. Not something I would be interested in doing with my limited time. James said: This seems to be getting towards your approach, where, if my memory serves me, Bob, you referred a year or two ago to % mites being a better guide to the need for treatment. Absolute numbers are not reliable, since they must be interpreted. % cells infested is perhaps rather more reliable. I can not really remember the post you speak of but varroa testing is easy as far as doing rolls or board tests but analysis of the results can be confusing and differ greatly from one area to the next. I will say that every beekeeper looks for a once a year fail proof way to control mites. Now that we are going into a new era of U.S. beekeeping we are faced with only trying to knock back the varroa load. FGMO only knocks down varroa load and efforts need to be done all season. Even drone brood removal might help with knocking down varroa load if the beekeeper wants to spend every Saturday pulling drone brood through the brood rearing season. A control which only provides a 50-60% control and many temperature and humidity dependent chemicals have shown *at times* control in this range will seem like they are working great but over a year or so the varroa load will climb to a level at which *in my opinion* they will not produce the results wanted and low honey crops will results combined with poor wintering . When we move into a use of a control dropping from 98% to possibly *at times* 50-60% varroa is winning. Eventually ( several years) varroa will win and the hive will die. Many have posted that from personal experience that formic acid ( both gel & liquid) is not as effective when the hive is approaching threshold as Apistan or Checkmite. complicated subject. Those which are confused by now either ask questions or search the archives as a wealth of testing information exists in the archives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. many of you in the U.S. might have read in your beekeeping assn. newsletters that I will be in St. Louis, Missouri at the meeting of the Missouri State Beekeepers showing slides of California Almond pollination. I regret to say I will not be attending as I will be enroute to California to remove hives from Almond groves. My partner will be at the meeting showing the slides. I will be off BEE-L for about three weeks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:32:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon should contact Robin Dartington who could answer most of his questions on his design of Long Deep hive positively. His email address is gray.dartington@dial.pipex.com Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:08:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Milt Lathan wrote: > ...I need to move the two > hives there across the lot. The site is in Carnation, WA about an > hour from my homebase, south of Seattle, so I would prefer to make > this a onetime move. Some might try to tell you that bees will always return to the old spot and die there -- unless moved a long way off -- but that is an old wives tale. There is, naturally, some truth to it, but it fails the standard test for truth in a true/false test. Numerous writers have taken much time and effort and presented lots of ideas here on BEE-L regarding this very topic, so I'll leave it to you to check the archives (see the tag line). It's a lot less work than moving the hives all over the country and back. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ News, gossip, opinion, pictures... Millions served. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? Hello Milt, George has penned a wonderful post, and has given some very sincere and accurate recommendations; but, there is something that George did not mention. You can do one very special thing to help yourself become a better beekeeper that is more important than any one book on the bookshelf or video in the cabinet: Find a mentor. Find someone such as a George Imirie, or Bob Harrison, or Allen Dick. Spend time with them and watch, listen, and don't be afraid to ask questions. You will be glad that you did; and, you will find also that you have made a very valuable friend. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:55:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >... You can do one very special thing to help yourself > become a better beekeeper that is more important than any one book on > the bookshelf or video in the cabinet: Find a mentor. I wish I'd said that. That's the one piece of beekeeping advice that is always correct, and never varies from place to place, or season to season. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:45:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: wintering & mite problems Comments: To: Keith Malone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Keith said: For the sake of discussion lets find out what you think is the basic rules for wintering in far north long cold wintering of bees. Bob, can you please describe these basic rules so I can compare what I did other than the normal rules of wintering? I am getting ready to leave town for several weeks and can't really get into a indepth discussion of wintering right now but maybe the rest of the list will. Keith said: You explained how you cured your problem but how did you find yourself in shape like this twice before, What mistakes were made? I had two big problems. The first time I was getting huge tracheal mite losses and we had no approved treatment. Things leveled out when a treatment was made available. Half the hives in the U.S. were reported at the time to have died from tracheal mites. The second time I had fluvaliante resistant bees and I had to wait almost two years for an approved strip. I might have avoided my problems if I had chosen to use illegal methods but I played by the rules. My problems also could have been avoided if the EPA had not dragged their feet. Right not there is no approved method of controlling varroa in Florida which works for many Florida beekeepers. In the meantime hives are crashing BUT EPA help is on the way. Maybe this fall or perhaps next spring. At least *hopefully* by a year from this fall. Hmmm. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the book ABC-XYZ of Bee Culture on page 315 it refers to using sodium hydroxide for finding tracheal mites. Does any one know where I can buy this in small amounts for my personal use? Also on page 316 it refers to using a binocular microscope of 50 power as another method to view mites. Do I have to use a binocular microscope or can I use a monocular microscope? Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated as I am not a scientist and never took biology in school. Oh the value of hindsight. Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:01:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification In-Reply-To: <20030312.064443.2212.0.willetslakeapiaries@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of Garrett M Martin > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:00 AM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: [BEE-L] Tracheal Mite Identification > > > In the book ABC-XYZ of Bee Culture on page 315 it refers to using sodium > hydroxide for finding tracheal mites. Does any one know where I can buy > this in small amounts for my personal use? Sodium Hydroxide = Caustic soda, any hardware shop will have it, the 'pearl' form is fairly pure. (it is used for clearing drains etc) Ben. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:32:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Mentor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I would like to add to Chuck's and Allen's comments on the importance of a mentor. There is nothing better than working bees with someone experienced and willing to teach. Most beekeepers (as opposed to beehavers) I know will gladly help someone starting out. We all were there at one time. You will learn things that you could not get from reading tons of books. How to read a colony is a skill that is difficult to master on your own, but is much easier when someone shows you what to look for. I could go on forever talking about the benefits of learning from a mentor, but I rather just offer two pieces of advice to anyone starting out. First, join and become active in a beekeeping organization in your area. When these folks meet there is well-spring of knowledge in that room. Just ask any question and you will get a number of different answers; all usually being correct. You will learn how to keep bees in your part of the world and what works best in your area. Second and more importantly, remember it's a two way street. Some new beekeepers, in a panic, won't think twice about calling the beekeeper they met at the meeting and asking them to come right over and look at their problem. In most cases the beekeeper will help them. I would like to suggest calling that same experienced beekeeper and offer to help them with their work. Spend an afternoon helping them requeen or harvesting honey or some other chore. During the time you spend with them you will ge! t much more than you give. There is nothing that frustrates me more than someone that shows up expecting to gain everything and give nothing back. I once had a new beekeeper say, "I want to attend your club meetings and learn everything, BUT I don't want to get too involved, and maybe get stuck doing something. I am too busy for that." Hard to believe. I have been keeping bees for quit a while now, and there is still so much to learn. Please take the advice, get involved, you will be glad you did. Oh, one other thing. Requeen every year! :-) Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garrett M Martin said: > ... it refers to using a binocular microscope of 50 power as another method to > view mites. Do I have to use a binocular microscope or can I use a monocular > microscope? Typical academic suggestions. :) For those without the resources of a major university at their disposal, even the cheapest plastic kid's microscope will do the job. Cheap microscopes may have minimum magnifications more powerful than 50x, which may slow you down as you move the sample around to get a "good view". You can use 100x without too much trouble, but 200x and up are "too much". Plastic optics have gotten very good in the past few years, perhaps as good or better than the glass optics of the 1970s. A good strong light (a halogen gooseneck desk lamp would be ideal) is more important than microscope quality, since you are trying to see through the trachea. The built-in lights on low-end microscopes are never bright enough. The types with the mirror under the slide platform is better. > ...it refers to using sodium hydroxide for finding tracheal mites... You don't need any chemicals - if you have the current edition of ABC and XYZ, just read further on in that section to where it describes how to pop their little heads off, and examine their trachea "as is". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:47:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been moving my bees from the orchard behind my house, which is going to be sold, to my own yard. Every 3 days, I move the hives one foot. The bees are finding their place. I leave it there for 3 days and then move all the hives another foot. When they all move relative to where they are, they seem to find the right hive. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:10:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Will Crow Subject: Re: Flooring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about hexagonal tile? Much better than vinyl imho. Will :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:02:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bryan Isaac Subject: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a new beekeeper and am going to be medicating bees for AFB this = spring. I asked our vet if he could get TM-25 or TM-50D. What he brought = in for me is "Oxy Tetra-A" from Dominion Vet Labs in Winnepeg. It is = Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride which has 55 mg/gm active ingredient = (which is I believe equivalent to Medivet's Oxysol 25S).=20 Is this an appropriate product to use for the bees ? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, If it was me, I would go out tonight, tape the hives, and move them to the new location. Untape and put a little grass into the entrance, partically blocking it, they will figure something is different and will reorientate themselves. (they might be a little mad so exercise caution) The ones that go do back to the original location with eventually come home to the new yard.. Just my humble opinion..Will Lewis. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Need to move hives 100 feet - Tips? Advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kathy writes, "Every 3 days, I move the hives one foot." Well at that rate the original query about moving 100 feet is going to take 300 days and 100 moves times however many hives need to be moved. Too much work, too much time! There are better, faster ways and this is a case where the BEE-L archives are a treasure trove! The discussion around the July '97 through 1999 is particularly good reading. BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l "moving hives" as a search argument yields over 150 hits. Narrowing it down with a date parameter is advised. Aaron Morris - thinking BEE-L Archives! Search 'em early, search 'em often! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:39:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who responded to my post you have been most helpful. Toys R Us has microscopes (for the little scientist in your family). These microscopes are made by Meade the price ranges from $100 US to $12 US. It looks like the model 8200 would suit my needs. Here is a link for those interested http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-6530420-3188601 Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:08:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Brian asked about oxytetracycline products to use for honey bee disease treatments. The various formulations available can be rather confusing but there are a few things to watch for to insure that you get the proper doseage. First make sure the product is a water soluable formulation. Formulations with things like rice hulls that are not water soluable will not work for bees because they will simply remove the junk from the hive. Second carefully read what the concentration of antibiotic is in the product. Formulations vary considerably in the concentration of oxytetracycline in the mix. You need an end dose of 200 mg per application per colony. This is usually given in about 2 tablespoons of powdered sugar sprinkled on the top bars of the brood chamber of chambers. TM 25 has 25 grams OTC per pound but it is sold in 6.4 oz foil packs. Each such pack contains 10 grams of OTC and when mixed with a 2 pound bag of powdered sugar will give the correct dose when 2 - 3 tablespoons are applies per colony. Do also note that one treatment consists of three such applications 7 - 10 days apart. Brian, you need to know the actual amount of OTC in that package to calculate how much should be mixed with powdered sugar to give the correct doseage of 200 mg per colony per application. 1 gm = 1000mg. If you mix the amount of that formulation that contains 10 gms of OTC with a 2 pound bag of powdered sugar your mix will be about right. Hope this helps but it can get rather confusing with all the various formulations out there. If you have further questions you can email me directly. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:24:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, If anyone cares on this list go here: http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm If not hit the delete button. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:55:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Garrett had some questions about microscopes for tracheal mite disections and may have found a scope at a reasonable price in Toys R Us. I have a few comments about scopes that should be considered. First there are two main types of microscopes designed for somewhat different purposes. I suspect Garrett found a standard microscope with usual magnifications from about 100X to 400X. These scopes have a very short working distance ( this varies with the mignification due to the optics ) due to the higher mignifications used. The microscopes recommonded for tracheal mite counting have much greater working distances - they are usually called disecting microscopes because you can literally disect specimens while viewing them under the scope. For tracheal mite counts the disecting scopes work much better and easier than the standard scopes as it is much easier to find the trachea and examine them. Disecting scopes however cannot be used for such things as nosema counts which require 400X mignification. Picking the right tool for the job will make a big difference in the time required to read a sample and in the frustration of trying to figure out how to use it. There is another source of microscopes out there to look for as well. Schools need to replace their student microscopes periodically and usually the old scopes are either sold directly or traded to the local supplier of the new scopes for a very reasonable price. The local dealer will service the old scopes and then sell them for a very reasonable price and the optice are usually better quality than those from the toystores. Jim's comments on light sources are right on and very important - without a good light source a scope with good optics just won't work very well so it is wise to invest in a good light source. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:13:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm a new beekeeper and am going to be medicating bees for AFB this > spring. I asked our vet... Vets usually don't know anything about bees. Bee supply places do. Medivet in High River and Alberta honey Co-op in Spruce Grove specialise in these products, and sell products that are *labelled for bee use*. If they do not have small quantities, then the best approach is to approach a fellow beekeeper and ask if you can share out of his/her supply. We are all glad to share, particularly disease control products, since nobody wants a beekeeper with AFB or out-of-control mites in the neighbourhood :) There are bee associations nearby no matter where you live, and they are a great place to divide up supply orders, and to find the best prices (and practices). I used to drive an hour monthly to attend the Red Deer club years ago, and ocasionally show up at a Calgary meeting, even now, if I remember to go. I realise that many find it surprising that beekeepers are usually happy to help their 'competitors', but it is a fact that most do. I share the supplies I purchase at or near my cost (and my cost is low because I buy bulk) with any nearby hobby or sideline beekeepers who care to ask. I also provide a free cup of coffee, free advice (they don't even have to ask for that :) and some chatter, if they have the time. I have some info on this also at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/extender/ . That page is mostly about extender patties, but also discusses various formulations of OTC. Maybe I should say here that I have used these patties for about four years now, and have cut the patty size to 1/3 over that time. I still use the same patty formula that weas proven by Bill Wilson, but make them samller. In recent years, we have had our extracted honey spore tested and the results show a declining level of spores over the past few years to where only one sample in 33 was positive. We have come from the point where -- years ago when we dusted and used syrup, -- we saw up to 3% AFB to where, now -- in the past two years -- we have seen NO AFB. We are thinking that before long, we might even be able to stop using OTC!, especially if we can get stock that we are sure is hygienic. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:24:07 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Blane, I am sure that advice given regarding OTC is valuable for individuals who have not used the material before, BUT, mixing metric with Imperial measurements!!!!! Where is the logic in maintaining this situation? "TM 25 has 25 grams OTC per pound but it is sold in 6.4 oz foil packs. Each such pack contains 10 grams of OTC and when mixed with a 2 pound bag of powdered sugar....... NASA found that Mars was resistant when they accidentally mixed the two systems. Cut out the Imperial! Regards Peter P.S. What is 6.4 of an oz ? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Need to move hive In-Reply-To: <200303102149.h2AL9K6B002928@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I moved several hives 6 feet each last week and no bees went back to the old location. I did it the way my father-in-law said to do it 20 years ago when I married his daughter and he gave me a couple dozen hives as a wedding present. "Only move the hive in the direction of the hive's opening, and no more than half a dozen feet at a move. Make the move in the evening when everyone's home for the night. And then put a board or a hive top over the opening. That's to make the bees stop and look around when they go to work in the morning. You would probably get lost too, coming home, if someone had picked up your house in the middle of the night and moved it over to the next block. You would rush out the front door, late to work, not bothering to see if your house had changed locations. And then when you came home from work, you would go back to the old location and your house wouldn't be. Same with the bees." He also said to put an empty box at the old location to gather the bees who went to work without paying attention to the board. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:42:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Garrett had some questions about microscopes for tracheal mite > disections When I was in Baton Rouge, John was using a neat gizmo -- some kind of magnifying video camera -- that could be aimed at a comb and which would then put a colour image image onto a computer or monitor. It had enough magnification that looking down into a cell to see varroa running around and the immatures, the fecal spot, and all that stuff was easy and obvious, even to someone with poor eyesight! See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary011003.htm for a picture of the thing in use. Seems to me that such equipmet is not expensive anymore and even that something of this nature can be had from a hobby shop or kids' scientific shop. Has anyone had any experience with these things and any idea where to get them, or will a digital camera with macro features or a webcam (maybe with a lens added) do the same thing when hooked up to a TV or computer? Since a fairly low magnification, but good depth of field is needed for tracheal work -- a loupe can even be used by someone patient who has acute vision -- it seems to me that such a setup would be excellent and available to most of us. The camera is one part, but the lighting will be the second and very important part of makling this work. Has anyone played around with this? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, Since All is Quiet on the Western Front, allow me to help our brain muscles exercised: While digging up other archives, I found Allen’s even-handed article on the “Inferiority Assumption of the Emergency Queen Cells” an informative and interesting piece, indeed. Here is the whole enchilada: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=000001bee1f3% 24a8f84ce0%2402000003%40allend&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Demergency% 2Bqueens%2Bgroup:sci.agriculture.beekeeping%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D% 26ie%3DUTF-8%26filter%3D0 Granted that Emergency Queen Cells from older eggs are inferior or at best a hit-and-miss operation, we routinely knock off these old QC’s after three to four days so that the unsealed “younger” queen cells to develop. So far so good? While splitting, let’s assume that you gave the queen right colony, an empty drone comb, put in at the center, as in Hopkins’ Method. Since knocking off old cells involves two trips to apiary, anyway, how about simply NOT giving the eggs at all to the split for a few days so that the “orphaned” bees become desperate for a missing mother, to wax the rhetoric? Besides bees do not always start building queen cells immediately. A day or two later, insert into the split, the freshly-laid batch you had put in at the center of the queen-right colony when splitting, so that now they will build queen cells from a day-old eggs, *assuming* such uniformity in egg-laying is feasible. Of course, given the irregular stages of brood development, sometimes it, too, is difficult to find a slate of sealed and other broods without any eggs; however, if one uses many colonies to split into one, finding such frames are not entirely impossible. What do you say? A crazy idea? Thinking out loud, suspecting some of you may have already done this. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "yskim@sgc.edu" Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? Not "drone comb," but *drawn comb* Shoot me: I erred in my haste. ego scriptor. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:59:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > If anyone cares on this list go here: > http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm Hey, thanks for that. I noticed more hits on my cell size calculator at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm and figured something must be happening. It is nice when people from special interest lists bring reports back here to BEE-L. Jeff Harris had mentioned a recent 'elegant study' that showed a positrtive effect from smaller cells when he was in Edmonton recently, but I had not gotten around to asking him what and where, so, I was delighted to see the URL and went there directly to see what is offered. However, having examined this study, I find it's deja vue all over again. This study merely confirms what we already know, and still does not answer the real question, and that is what happens if the mites have no choice and are only on big cells or on small cells. "...in our experimental colonies the mites could choose between small Africanized comb cells, "medium-sized" Italian cells and large Carniolan cells. They preferred the largest cells. The varroa females also chose the largest cells in the study by Message and Gonçalves (1995); however, in their colonies the mites only had a choice between small Africanized cells and larger Italian comb cells." The problem is that several sizes of cells were present at the same time in each hive, so it is just as easy to conclude that that the mites just seek out the largest cells in the hive and climb into them, as it is to think that this proves somehow that smaller cells will result in lower total infestation. This has been the problem with previous tests comparing cell size effects. The authors say: "Varroa's preference for larger comb cells could be a contributing factor to the 60% higher infestation rates of adult bees that was found in apiary colonies, which contain both Italian- and Africanized-sized comb, compared to feral Africanized colonies, with only natural-sized Africanized comb, examined in the same region in Brazil (Gonçalves et al., 1982). It is too bad that they did not prove that. Additionally, the test was done with AHB which is naturally smaller than EHB, so I wonder if the results can be applied to EHB and if so, if the cells would be larger for EHB? Nonetheless it is interesting and there definitely are many things we don't understand. At any rate, I'm not saying that small cells do not inhibit varroa reproduction. I'm just saying that, sadly, this study does not prove it. I think there is definitely something to this and that enlarged cells are a bad idea. I saw that in the results of our foundation experiment where Pierco beat out the larger cell size foundations in first year production. I saw something when I went to visit Dee. I'd sure like to see an experiment that proves colonies established and operating on one size of cells beat out colonies on a different cell size, without complicating things by having too many other variables. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:41:33 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I suspect Garrett found a standard microscope with > usual magnifications from about 100X to 400X. Don't worry Garrett - you did fine. The "Toys R Us" website describes the scope as: "...this high-quality microscope made of metal and hard plastic. This model includes three rotating optical glass lenses and a 10x eyepiece for variable magnification power of 40x, 100x, and 400x. A rotating diaphragm and an adjustable small mirror underneath the instrument work to control the lighting..." Which is just fine. Jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:17:43 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, Your manipulation is fine - but as you say, one has to be 100% sure that there are no eggs! If that is the case, or you are confident that is the case - then you have saved yourself a trip. But if doing many splits - the time taken to "ensure" that no eggs are present might easily outweigh the time used in a second trip and removal of unwanted queen cells. There again - removing unwanted queen cells isn't always 100% successful either as the odd one is missed! You takes your choice! Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:36:29 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Blane, I had noticed that the States still manipulate in Imperial! It is even more frustrating when a mechanical appliance stops working and spanners are called for. Nearly as good as a Tablespoon of material. Maybe it's why on the odd occasion the meal cooked by my wife is to say the least "salty" - she mixes British and French cook books but only uses a French tablespoon. Peter, What is 6.4 of an oz ? That does not make sense - if you mean: If 1lb contains 25g how much does 6.4oz contain' then the answer is simply 25 * 6.4 / 16 = 10 (which should make metriphiles feel at home!). What I was eluding to was: Again mixing imperial with metric. 6 and a third of an oz., or fifth, what ever, but point something of an imperial measurement! - not logical. Yes, France is metric and if I remember my days teaching in British schools - all measurements in my classes were also in metric. It is the mixing of the systems that is difficult to accept. It is wonderful to see the measurements of the different frames, brood boxes etc. set out in imperial - not easy to make direct comparisons is it! Go metric! Regards Peter 221/3°C with bright sunshine, blackthorn in flower. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: I need it and I need it fast! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I need a picture that I may include on the front cover for the SABA 2003 Spring Seminar to be hosted at UAlbany (the same University that brings BEE-L to your PC). I want a picture that weds spring and beekeeping, that when a beekeeper looks at it they just know that it's springtime and they'd rather be in their hives than looking at the picture. I need the picture in time to go to press tomorrow morning (12 hours from now), so I NEED IT FAST! Regarding the SABA seminar, see: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302D&L=bee-l&P=R4201 Early registration opportunities have expire, but mention my name to Anne when you register and I will pay your late fee! Of course, I have no pull with Marriot. Aaron Morris - thinking mentor, meetings, advice from a warm beekeeper! and yes, thinking SPRING! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:52:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: nepotism in bees In-Reply-To: <000701c2e4c4$7384c840$0e963442@cbbrown> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A study at the University of Helsinki, cited In the New York Times science section 3-4-03, established that ants workers favor offspring in the colony more closely related. The researchers said that apis mellifera is the only other insect to show such nepotism. So how do bees show preference for, say, sisters over half-sisters? I would be interested in references to studies of this behavior in bees. MEA McNeil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question Blane White said: >> "TM 25 has 25 grams OTC per pound but it is sold in 6.4 oz >> foil packs. Each such pack contains 10 grams of OTC and >> when mixed with a 2 pound bag of powdered sugar..." and Peter said: > Cut out the Imperial! OK, I'll play: Translating into metric, we get: TM 25 has 25 grams OTC per 0.4536 kilo... (Nope, that's useless gibberish. Let's try again...) TM 25 has 55.11 grams OTC per kilo. (OK, but the name needs to be changed to "TM 55.11") It is sold in 181.4 gram foils packs. Each such pack contains 10 grams of OTC and when mixed with a 0.9072 kilo bag of powdered sugar..." Nope, still gibberish. It seems clear that the product was packaged and intended for use in an "imperial" measurement system. (Imperial? Perhaps the kitchen of Darth Vader's Death Star?). Note the name - "TM 25". 25 what per what? 25 grams per pound. Sorry Peter, but Blaine is being pragmatic - the "nonsense" was designed in from the start! Things could be worse. In Britian, the following is a standard unit of thermal conductivity (used for calculating heat loss through walls and such): BThU/hour/sq ft/cm/degrees F And in electrical engineering, 1 microfarad equals 900 jars jim (who fondly recalls the "lids per bag" measurement system, but wonders how many "lids per jar") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > how about > simply NOT giving the eggs at all to the split for a few days so that > the "orphaned" bees become desperate for a missing mother, to wax the > rhetoric? Not a bad idea at all. The only problem is that, at some times, and under some conditions, bees will abandon splits made with no open brood. If the splits are confined or held in the dark for several days, it could work. As to the original discussion, I never did get a clear answer to the question about emergency cells, but I did conclude as follows: Different strains of bees under differing conditions will give different results if dequeened suddenly. Some will raise an A1 queen, some will raise an intercaste, and some will remain queenless. I suspect that the quality of the resulting queen -- assuming good queen rearing conditions otherwise -- depends not only on the age when the worker larva is 'crowned' (selected to be queen), but also depends on the parent stock and drones in the region. Again, if the bees and others in the region are bees that have been proagated this way over the years and are not special hybrids or incompatible strains, then the result will likely be satisfactory. I think that the reports of really bad emergency queen results come from bees that have been split and left to requeen themselves at a time when the colonies are weak or confined by weather, lacking a flow, or the bees were of a sort that tend to have poor offspring or bad crosses. Thanks for the flashback. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:44:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All The clip is from one of Allen Dick's posts... But the reply is addressed to a wide audience that I hope includes a few researchers. > I think there is definitely something to this and that enlarged cells > are a bad idea. I saw that in the results of our foundation experiment > where Pierco beat out the larger cell size foundations in first year > production. I saw something when I went to visit Dee. > > I'd sure like to see an experiment that proves colonies established and > operating on one size of cells beat out colonies on a different cell > size, without complicating things by having too many other variables. I pick out the words " I saw something " from the above text and can say that I have also 'seen something'. I have made several appeals for more research... On this list and others, as well as direct to some individual research establishments, but so far no one is interested. It is heartening that the recent study has been performed and I am grateful that it has been made freely available, but there is more to be done. I can see that there are some implications in intercomb spacing and packing density that may well be appropriate to wintering under extremely cold conditions... Surely that would be of benefit to Canadian/Alaskan beekeepers and attract the attention of researchers from those regions? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: wade Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Article Entitled: The influence of brood comb cell size on the reproductive behavior of the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor in Africanized honey bee colonies by Giancarlo A. Piccirillo and D. De Jong Snips from abstract....Three types (sizes) of brood combs were placed in each of six Africanized honey bee colonies: new (self-built) Africanized comb, new Italian comb (that the bees made from Italian-sized commercial foundation), and new Carniolan comb (built naturally by Carniolan bees). About 100 cells of each type were analyzed in each colony. The Africanized comb cells were significantly smaller in (inner) width (4.84 mm) than the European-sized comb cells (5.16 and 5.27 mm for Italian and Carniolan cells, respectively)....The brood cell infestation rates (percentage cells infested) were significantly higher in the Carniolan-sized comb cells (19.3%) than in the Italian and Africanized cells (13.9 and 10.3%, respectively). European-sized worker brood cells were always more infested than the Africanized worker brood cells in the same colony....The small width comb cells produced by Africanized honey bees may have a role in the ability of these bees to tolerate infestations by Varroa destructor, furthermore it appears that natural-sized comb cells are superior to over-sized comb cells for disease resistance.... There has been considerable discussion previously about the benefits of downsizing cell size. The above statements certainly suggest that Africanized bees are best kept on small (4.8 mm) cell size. Yet the statements also imply that Italian bees are best kept on medium (5.1 mm) and Carniolan bees are best kept on larger (5.3 mm) cell size. Am I interpreting correctly or over emphasizing the implications? I would appreciate any thoughts or facts. The full subject article may be found at: http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm Thanks. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:49:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification ----- Original Message ----- From: "allen dick" > When I was in Baton Rouge, John was using a neat gizmo -- some kind of > magnifying video camera -- that could be aimed at a comb and which would > then put a colour image image onto a computer or monitor. Overkill? Bees can be checked for acarine mites in the field quite easily - just remove the head using your thumbnail behind the front legs. A 10x hand lens is then adequate to check the trachaea, although in my case I have such poor eyesight that I can focus easily at 5-6" without glasses and have no need of the lens. There had to be some advantage to being short-sighted! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:34:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Intel digital microscope works well enought for tracheal mite detection. It can be had on ebay or at any toy store for less than $100. I use a disecting microscope with about 20-30 power .. that's plenty .. Dave _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: > The authors say: "Varroa's preference for larger comb cells could be a > contributing factor to the 60% higher infestation rates of adult bees > that was found in apiary colonies, which contain both Italian- and > Africanized-sized comb, compared to feral Africanized colonies, with > only natural-sized Africanized comb, examined in the same region in > Brazil (Gonçalves et al., 1982). It is too bad that they did not prove > that. You came to the same conclusions that I did. I wonder just what causes the selection of the larger cells. If some mechanism was found, it could lead to another Varroa control (which we do have with drone trapping, but could be something less labor intensive). It could also be totally random and we are not seeing what we think we see, as was shown with the organization of brood, honey and pollen on a frame. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: nepotism in bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mea asks "So how do bees show preference for, say, sisters over half-sisters? I would be interested in references to studies of this behavior in bees." One of the most under-appreciated books concerning honeybees is Wisdom of the Hive, by Thomas Seeley PhD, and Professor at Cornell University. It clearly outlines the nepotism issue, as well as the experiments that have documented the phenomena, and speculates as to the reasons that this behavior developed. Available everywhere, including Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:25:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, Allen, et al. Thanks for your timely, insightful comments. I am interested in a hand-off, queen-rearing procedure because it appears that the more we press our queens to be a super stock [SMR, NWC, or a Communist?], the more failure we seemed to experience [Search *Queen Failure* in any archive]. Sure, Hopkins’ Method works but you need to have a larger-than-standard super to lay down an egg-laden frame, flat horizontally, a problem everyone experiences yet nobody mentions. Of course, done expertly, grafting works fine. But I am wondering the viability of emergency queens from a split, made up of at least five frames minimum, during a flow, simply because that particular procedure seems to warrant a natural process best—-other than harvesting swarm or supercedure cells, which is tricky during a non-swarm season. Given the delicate-handling of eggs and other factors involved in grafting— -such as the moisture in the air, priming the cells with royal jelly, transferring them, harvesting the cells, transporting to another yard, putting in the nuc boxes, mating the virgins, shooing the drone-eating birds [martins in particular] in the neighborhood, marking them (for some), harvesting them in queen-cages, and worrying about myriad of other variables, such as tools, your eyesight, Feng Sui, etc.—it seems this procedure involves just too many man-handling, thus increasing the odds against an excellent prodigy. Jenter system, too, must confine the queen in a jail, which must be stressful, not to mention, unnatural. [Yes, I realize emergency cells are, too, unnatural] A *satisfactory* [as Allen used the term judiciously], not perfect, queen from emergency cells will work for many hobbyists who do not possess the expertise and the dexterity of a queen breeder, for they, too, can cull, though not as efficiently, their own stock that withstood the onslaught of bee pestilence. It’s free. Most important, this procedure will let the bees do what they do best under the circumstance. Sure, there will be duds, just as there will be, among the queens you paid an arm and a leg from a reputable breeder. Hence, my initial thread. Cheers, Yoon In Shawnee, OK, ugly drones are flying already, and daffodils, red maples, flowering quince, and Bradford pears are blooming. Spring has sprung, indeed. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:03:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allan said "We have come from the point where -- years ago when we dusted and used syrup, -- we saw up to 3% AFB to where, now -- in the past two years -- we have seen NO AFB." Am I correct in concluding that you attribute this success to the extender patties? And is this simply a matter of the overall strengthening effect that the extender patties have on your colonies? Steve Noble > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:29:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Lewis Subject: nepotism in bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mea asked about nepotism in bees. When I was an undergraduate in university I did my thesis on the role kinship plays in colony "cooperation" (thermoregulation, brood production, honey production)- Tom Seeley was my external advisor. Most studies focused on nepotism in regards to Queen rearing where presumably bees could show nepotism by being given the chose of rearing larvae that were related by varying degrees (full-sisters, half-sisters, non related). I have several references to studies of this nepotism: Breed, M.D., H.H.W. Velthuis, and G.E. Robinson. 1984. Annal of the Entomological Society of America. 77: 737-739. Carlin, N.F. and P.C. Frumhoff. 1990. Nepotism in the honey bee. Nature. 346:706-707 Getz, W.M. and Smith, K.B. 1983. Nature. 302: 147-148 These studies, for the most part show that even during the important task of Queen rearing, intra-colony discrimination is shakey at best - presumeably the result of multiple matings of Queens and the resulting numerous subfamilies in a colony. Hope this helps. Mike Lewis --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/03 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:16:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Peter said: Overkill? Bees can be checked for acarine mites in the field quite easily - just remove the head using your thumbnail behind the front legs. A 10x hand lens is then adequate to check the trachaea, although in my case I have such poor eyesight that I can focus easily at 5-6" without glasses and have no need of the lens. There had to be some advantage to being short-sighted! Not so fast Peter! I have done plenty of these myself in the field (with a 16 power lens) but I am looking for a black trachea and not the actual mites. I later confirm my field diagnosis with the microscope. I have done plenty of nosemia diagnosis in the filed and confirm later. If Peter is only looking for the blackened trachea then I agree. If he is seeing the actual tracheal mites then we have got a problem here. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:48:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoon & all > I am interested in a hand-off, queen-rearing procedure Making splits almost implies that all the resulting queens will be 'acceptable' or at least required to do some duty. I think it is probably the first method that any beekeeper tries for 'queen raising', but it does not give very reliable results With 'splits' there is not enough slack (spare queens) for culling of the bad. Grafting is a simple technique that takes little time and is very easy to become skilled at. (any faulty eyesight can be corrected with spectacles or binocular attachments to fit spectacles) Couple grafting with reduced size mating nucs that are easy to populate and you can raise enough queens to pick and choose the good ones. This costs very little as the mating nucs are self sustaining. OK you have to make special nucs... Most of the ones that are sold for mating purposes are not quite large enough for assessment of queens. There are ways around this using folding frames that will fit both a full sized hive and a half sized one. I reckon you will get out what you are prepared to put in, in other words... Splits are easy and quick, but give poor queens. Grafting gives more scope for queen quality, but costs a little time, a little effort and a small capital outlay for equipment. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:03:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, Additionally, the test was done with AHB which is naturally smaller than > EHB,> reply: The bee is small only due to its natural comb sizing. Allen, where would a source of 4.8- 4.9mm cell combs come from? US and Canadian beekeepers and European beekeepers for that matter all use foundation and at 5.2 and up. South of the border there is much more use of natural combs without foundation. so I wonder if the results can be applied to EHB and if so, if the > cells would be larger for EHB? reply: I don't see why not. I have colonies of carniolan type bees right now that are on 4.8-4.9mm cell sizing(Non- Lusby stock). I know Dee suggests 4.9 top tolerance. Maybe as the bees move north and up in elevation the top tolerance maybe as high as 5.05mm. But for doing the ground work for the average beekeeper 4.9 is a good sizing and in time one can see if it can be stretched upwards for EHB. Now Allen I can understand beekeepers looking for a less labor intensive way. I started with a base of 64 colonies. Have suffered a 75% loss each year(with minor replacement). On the first year of regression the bees pulled an average of 2-3 small cell combs (4.9 top tolerance). No chems of any sort have been used and only FGMO for 4 yrs prior. Then second year shaking bees onto these bait combs and culling the rest you gain another 6-7 combs,with each season the bees locking in better and pulling more and more. Very slow work as you can only accomplish what the bees allow. Then you have to figure mite immigration from neighbors yards ravaging colonies whom are already struggling to handle mite loads as when regressing the mites don't really give you a break. The shakedown process puts enough stress as it is. But no other method work as well and speed is everything especially coming out of the pocketbook. Natural selection? Oh yes, theres that too. > I think there is definitely something to this and that enlarged cells > are a bad idea. I saw that in the results of our foundation experiment > where Pierco beat out the larger cell size foundations in first year > production. Notice any difference in winter clusters and spring buildup? -- O> I'd sure like to see an experiment that proves colonies established and > operating on one size of cells beat out colonies on a different cell > size, without complicating things by having too many other variables. reply: Me too. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Last Small Cell Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, All of my small cell colonies have successfully survived the winter. This is a first in at least a decade! Hive populations are the best I've seen in years with most having at least one full deep box of bees. No piles of dead bees. No dinks. No deadouts. These hives will have to be split early to avoid swarming problems. I have seen only one mite since the end of last season. I pulled the mite traps and will no longer count mites. In summary 16 hives plus some nucs were regressed to small cell. Colony loses were significant resulting in 4 survivor colonies consisting of one small hive and 3 dinks. Those hive prospered and were split resulting in 7 exceptional hives even in a time of extreme drought. Those hives have been able to handle mite immigration from two commercial operators who operations are riddled with mites and have been reduced by colony losses. Natural mite fall has been consistent at about 1 mite/week throughout the season. Other queens from commercially available stock were introduced into some of the small cell hives. They have performed equally well on the small cell comb. The evidence for the positive effects of small cell on colony health and mite resistance is available. The behavior described by the Lusby's with their bees in Arizona have been seen by others using different bees in other northern states and countries around the world. Two types of small cell foundation are readily available and much has been written about the process. So anyone who chooses can try it. My next project is to place some of my small cell bees into a top bar hive and watch what happens. The tbh is built and bees should be available in two months. It appears that structure and seasonal use of comb is a very important factor for colony health. Maybe as a moderator who suggested the tbh trial once intimated that " foundation may not be a good idea", this should prove very interesting. Happy TBHing Dennis Murrell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:11:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Another Dud in Emergency? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoon: What I used for the laid down comb is a shallow super with a groove cut in each end large enough for the frame ears to fit into. I support the frame on a pair of bars, 8" long x 1.5" high x 1.5" wide. It is good to put a potato sack over the top of the laid down frame to keep it warm and prevent the bees from feeding the larvae on the top side. I confined the queen in a three frame compartment above an excluder and put all the frames with brood and eggs below the excluder. I wait a few days to let them hatch out and then put the frame which is to contain the queen cells into her compartment and let her lay in it. When the eggs begin to hatch I remove the top box with the queen and put it on another bottom board behind the original. I put the frame horizontally on the lower box (making sure the queen is not on it). Since she has not laid in the bottom box for while, there are no larvae for the bees to make queens from. They are forced to use the frame with the newly hatched eggs. Note: I only started doing this last year, due to my worsening eyesight making grafting difficult. It worked well, and I am going to try it again this year. Best regards Donald Aitken ... Sure, Hopkins' Method works but you need to have a larger-than-standard super to lay down an egg-laden frame, flat horizontally, a problem everyone experiences yet nobody mentions... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 13/03/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:38:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Additionally, the test was done with AHB which is naturally smaller than EHB... > The bee is small only due to its natural comb sizing. I think that it has been clearly established by numerous worldwide surveys by a number of very well-respected researchers that different races of bees observed in the wild have differing average 'natural comb sizing'. There is natural variability in each race, so the size ranges sometimes overlap. Moreover, all bees, left to themselves will build cells in a typical wild nest that range in size, and in shape. Thus the concept of 'natural cell size' is an artificial one, and only has meaning in the context of forcing bees to build on foundation. Under such circumstances, obviously, the term, 'natural cell size', becomes an oxy-moron since there is nothing natural about where or how the bees are constrained to build, and they are not free to build their natural comb. > I have colonies of carniolan type bees right now that are on 4.8-4.9mm cell sizing 4.8 - 4.9 mm is not in the range of sizes that carniolan bees will naturally build, given any choice, from my understanding. If 4.8 - 4.9 is in the range at all, it is at the extreme low end, or even an outlier. From all reports, that size is clearly 'unnatural' for carniolans -- and using foundation is not natural either. > Have suffered a 75% loss each year(with minor replacement). Ouch! Although it is interesting to see what bees can be forced to do and still survive, there are much cheaper and more natural ways to deal with the mites, as the Primorsky project and subsequent selection has shown. Survival approaching 100% and easy management is accomplished on standard combs already in existance. (Correct me if I'm wrong Charlie). Little if any mite control is required in some regions, and this is still early in the selection process.. >> I think there is definitely something to this and that enlarged cells >> are a bad idea. I saw that in the results of our foundation >> experiment where Pierco beat out the larger cell size foundations in >> first year production. > Notice any difference in winter clusters and spring buildup? I haven't really looked, but most hives -- regardless of the comb base -- survive, and most build up, and most make honey. We sure don't lose 75%. It stands to reason, though, that a cell size closer to the middle of the range of sizes observed in wild EHB colonies -- 5.1 -5.4 mm. would be better for most of that population -- for most purposes -- than cells at either end of the range. Pierco is bang in the middle of the range, so I would not be surprised to see a difference if we tried to isolate one. As to where in the range of possible sizes to standardize on cell size, there are many factors to consider. For varroa reduction, there does seem to be some evidence that more constrictive cells are better. For pollinating red clover, or for trying to extract honey from cells, perhaps the larger end of the range is favoured. Whatever the case, arguments can be made either way, and just like the Chev / Ford debate, I doubt it will be resolved. Most people will use whatever works for them and suits their goals, or what they have at hand. Although we may not have the same goals, or agree on how best to keep bees, I know we are agreed that no experiment yet -- that we know about -- resolves the question of how cell size works. When will we get an answer on that? Could BEE-L members design an experiment to prove what so far has eluded explanation? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:53:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "We have come... to where...we have seen NO AFB." > Am I correct in concluding that you attribute this success to the extender patties? Yes. There is no doubt in my mind. We used dust and syrup for years and *always* had some breakdown. When we switched to extender patties, we noticed a decrease immediately, then a complete disappearance of AFB. I have always believed that if AFB spores are unable to grow and multiply, that natural activity in the hive and the extraction of honey will, over time, reduce the number of spores in the hive. Moreover, although spores are tough, they are not immortal. There is natural attrition in anything. Maybe spores germinate, but are inhibited from multiplying and sporulating by the drug. That too reduces the numbers in the hive over time. Also, there has been speculation that as spores age and are kicked around the hive, they lose potency. Spores that can grow in a medium (giving a positive AFB spore test result and thus seeming viable) may not be vigorous enough to infect larvae in a real-life situation. Add to that the speculation that being coated with wax and/or propolis may reduce spores' activity and germination rate, and we can see that anything that prevents AFB from getting to the spore-forming stage for long enough, will have very beneficial effects and reduce the potential infection drastically. That's why hygienic bees are so successful in dealing with minor outbreaks. They get the contamination out of the hive pronto. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::