From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:28:33 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1156749069 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeY011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0303C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 143426 Lines: 3237 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:30:31 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: new small cell study Allen said: >> additionally, the test was done with AHB which is >> naturally smaller than EHB.. and Clay said: > The bee is small only due to its natural comb sizing. A stronger argument could be made that it is the other way 'round. Which came first - the comb or the egg? :) In the specific case of the South American AHB used in the study at issue, it seems to be an error to attribute the smaller size of AHB to the comb. As I understand it, a bee left to its own devices uses its own body as a "caliper" of sorts to build a cells that are appropriate to its body size. It follows that bees given no foundation or only unembossed starter strips will build whatever size cells they "naturally" want to build. Therefore, it would be more accurate and fair to say that the comb is smaller in AHB hives due solely to the smaller size of AHB. > South of the border there is much more use of natural > combs without foundation. And use of AHB. Professor DeJong's presentation to the VA State Beekeepers meeting this year was very informative, in that he went into detail about how beekeepers have learned the "management" appropriate to AHB, a very different set of practices from "normal". The study seems to answer few questions for the case of EHB, and the simultaneous presentation of multiple comb sizes to the same colony simply verified what was already well-known, that mites "prefer" the larger (in most cases, drone-sized) cells. Please small-cell people, don't flame me. I am taking great care to avoid even the appearance of critiquing "small cell" here. I am only questioning specific statements presented as fact. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:05:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: update Aurora, CO Comments: To: biologicalbeekeeping@yahoogroups.com, Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The web site http://savethebees.net is up. A local letter writing campaign has been initiated. The city council will have a study session at the end of the month. The ideal situation will be that a majority of the council will vote to just leave things as they are at this time. If that happens, honeybees will continue to be handled under the nuisance laws. If that doesn't happen then in mid-April there will be a city council meeting where the public can be heard before the council votes on whether to restrict honeybee keepers to the very minimal agriculture zones in the city or not. I will post more as things develop. Thank you for the support and interest. Tom Patterson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:22:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: new small cell study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, > I think that it has been clearly established by numerous worldwide > surveys by a number of very well-respected researchers that different > races of bees observed in the wild have differing average 'natural comb > sizing'. There is natural variability in each race, so the size ranges > sometimes overlap. Of course. There is different ranges and they all fluctuate from race to race due to location, elevation. ----Moreover, all bees, left to themselves will build > cells in a typical wild nest that range in size, and in shape. No problem with that statement. But will add that these cells will vary in function. Within a colony will will be brood cells, pollen cells, transtion cells, honey storage cells, all of different sizing, with some overlapping in function. Not to mention that each will be drawn at different times of season based on what is happening for example , spring brood up period, from flow to flow, all based on the need at the time. So from the beekeepers point of veiw there will be different windows where the bees will draw different types of cells. > 4.8 - 4.9 mm is not in the range of sizes that carniolan bees will > naturally build, given any choice, from my understanding. If 4.8 - 4.9 > is in the range at all, it is at the extreme low end, or even an > outlier. From all reports, that size is clearly 'unnatural' for > carniolans -- and using foundation is not natural either. Allen, I'm just a simple beekeeper. The girls built 4.8 to 4.9mm brood cells. It is my POV here but I will suggest that maybe it is not race so much that determines the cell size but climate, including, elevation, latitude, longitute, weather, terrain, ect. But I'm not saying that race doesn't factor in however. Now you have seen the foundation produced by Lusby's, Yes? And you know it has no cell walls, Yes? I would suggest that no bee will draw this foundation out properly unless is is well within there range of cell sizing. Now you make no distiction of what type of cells we are discussing here? If you we talking carniolan honey storage cells,I'd agree. I find they range from 5.2 to 5.5mm. If brood cells 4.85 to 5.05 (this later figure is why I stated earlier that this maybe top tolerance here in the north). Pollen cells are the smallest ( if in broodnest). Ouch! Although it is interesting to see what bees can be forced to do > and still survive, there are much cheaper and more natural ways to deal > with the mites, as the Primorsky project and subsequent selection has > shown. But Allen, I keep carniolan type bees. In the US we have all type of bees from african stocks to now primorski bees, we have enough types of bees. I rather think there is no better bee than waht you have to work with. As for forcing bees, no force on earth can make them draw a specific cell size unless they are inclined to do so. There are those colonies that refuse but In my experience they are very few and often a timing thing. As for $$$ and I'm not rich. I would not have gone down this path if money was more important to me than the survival of the honeybee. As for losses it was anticipated from the get go to have 90% losses. High loss is consistent for all using small cell methods as proposed by the Lusby's. This occurs for the first 3-4 years. Then there are those now swingigng the other way. stands to reason, though, that a cell size closer to the > middle of the range of sizes observed in wild EHB colonies -- 5.1 -5.4 > mm. would be better for most of that population -- for most purposes -- > than cells at either end of the range. Pierco is bang in the middle of > the range, so I would not be surprised to see a difference if we tried > to isolate one. Allen 95% of all my colonies were on pierco before regressing to 4.8 to 4.9 cell sizing ( a task that will be completed this year). I at one time looked from the same POV as you are making now. But this may not be the case. But it is not my objestive to have anyone to go this route unles it is something they wish to pursue as it is a large commitment. Will let everyone know how things progress or lack thereof as will others from time to time. Best wishes to all in what ever method they chose to save there colonies. Allen you should check out some of the specialized groups such as organic or bio bee from time to time to see what is up. I usually try to stay quite till something significant needs saying. If any studies come my way will send them this way. regards, Clay- its late here and half asleep hope I didn't ramble too much - :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:28:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" I later confirm my field diagnosis with the microscope. > If Peter is only looking for the blackened trachea then I agree. If he is > seeing the actual tracheal mites then we have got a problem here. Bob Yes, I am looking for blackened trachaea as a positive indicator of acarine infestation. Does anything else cause blackened trachaea (except smoking!)? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:49:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, biologicalbeekeeping@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/14/03 9:37:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, tomandcara@attbi.com writes: > If that happens, honeybees will continue to be handled > under the nuisance laws. Reply: How can this be? Bees are an agricultural necessity and not a nuisance by an old US Supreme Court Ruling, besides being under the jurisdiction of the USDA and State Governments and right has never been assigned lower to cities, towns and municipalities in the USA. Have you checked with your department of Agriculture about this and asked for their help and presence at the meeting? After all if precidence is set it could effect the whole state for beekeeping or has this already been settled and laws are already on the books in your state? Regards, Dee A. Lusby :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: New(er) Small Cell Study Allen said: > Could BEE-L members design an experiment to prove what > so far has eluded explanation? Gee - are there prizes? Maybe odds and ends from the great Swalwell Alberta "everything must go" sale? :) I'd speculate that the ultimate test would be to take some number of colonies, and see what happens when they are place upon "standard-size" comb, and then upon "small-cell" comb and visa-versa. If cell-size is the controlling parameter, I would expect to see varroa move in and take over, and I would expect that I could shake that same colony back into a hive of small-cell comb, and see the varroa problem reduced or eliminated. Given the losses that those transitioning to small-cell are forced to take, one problem is how to isolate "converting to small cell" from "breeding from the varroa survivors". But Dennis Murrell said something interesting: > Other queens from commercially available stock were introduced > into some of the small cell hives. They have performed equally > well on the small cell comb. This appears to contradict any "breeding from the survivors" explanation. Interesting. Of course, there are others reporting varroa resistance who have not modified their comb size. In the March 2003 issue of "Bee Culture", an ad for "Bee Weaver Apiaries" says: "Bee Weaver colonies (~5000) did not need treatment for mites in 2002, and thus far, have not declined due to an infestation..." 5,000 colonies is a much larger sample size than any small-cell beekeeper or study known. The ad does not say which of their breeds of bees have such varroa resistance, and they offer several specific lines - "Buckfast", "BeeSMaRT", "All American", and "Russian". If they have done this with ALL their lines of bees, and 5,000 colonies is more than one would expect to support a single line, that is also "interesting". Very, very interesting. So, let's see... 1) We need to use "a mix of breeds" of bees that are clearly having problems with mites. No use running the test with mite-resistant bees, is there? (But if mite-resistant bees are becoming so common, what's the point of testing the "small cell" approach anyway?) Anyway, we need more than one breed of bees, for sure. 2) We need to transcend the time-consuming task of "forcing" the bees to draw smaller comb, so I guess we need to commission whoever makes the fully-drawn "Permacomb" to create a "small-cell" version of the product. (This would not be cheap - tooling is expensive!) 3) We then toss a coin for each of "n" colonies, where "n" is at least 50, and put "heads" colonies on pre-drawn "small-cell" plastic, and "tails" colonies on pre-drawn "normal-cell" plastic. 4) We then need a heavily-armed 24-hour guard service to keep watch over the hives. Maybe video cameras would be cheaper... 5) We "turn the crank" for a decent interval of tracking and recording mite populations versus brood area for each colony using a standard method, consistent for all colonies. 6) Now the fun part - we swap 'em. Colonies that were on small-cell go to "normal", and those on "normal" go to small-cell. We keep the colonies in the same hives in the same locations, we simply shake the bees off the combs, and transfer combs between hives. 7) Repeat (5) for the same "decent interval", recording data as before. 8) Lastly, get a real statistician to do the data-crunching in isolation from any influence from anyone who "knows" anything about bees. This approach would isolate cell size as a single controlled parameter, and would allow a fair "bake-off" where, all other things being equal, cell size would be the only variable. (This preliminary test plan subject to massive revision without notice, please fire at will with any pot shots that come to mind!) jim (who hopes the prize is a honey refractometer, 'cause he dropped his hard-to-find-anymore 1970-ish Atago down a flight of stairs, and it is a refractometer no longer. It is a "re-fractured refractometer", a fraction of its former self, that will refract no more. It is a dead parrot.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deealusby1@AOL.COM wrote: > tomandcara@attbi.com writes: >>If that happens, honeybees will continue to be handled >> under the nuisance laws. > > Reply: > How can this be? Bees are an agricultural necessity and not a nuisance by an > old US Supreme Court Ruling, besides being under the jurisdiction of the USDA > and State Governments and right has never been assigned lower to cities, > towns and municipalities in the USA. Getting things confused here. Bees are not a nuisance by law but neither bees nor beekeepers are protected just because bees are not a nuisance. Bees are not a necessity, nor is agriculture, as far as zoning law is concerned. In a specific juristiction, any use of the land is either permitted by law or not. For example, beekeeping can be restricted by law even in an agricultural zone as can be pig raising, poultry, etc.. The nuisance aspect comes in when a use is challenged. Most land use codes will not allow a nuisance or will put limits on it so the nuisance is reduced. Since bees are not a nuisance, by law, that is not a valid restriction on beekeeping, but that will not stop laws restricting beekeeping from being passed. Free speech is guaranteed by the Constitution, but that does not stop municipalities from passing restrictive zoning laws that kill off the XXX shops, even in areas zoned for business. The key in nuisance law is that bees, by themselves, are not a nuisance. But improper beekeeping can be a nuisance. So can poor placement of hives. Both of these have resulted in zoning laws restricting beekeeping. You can easily restrict beekeeping by allowing it only on lots of more than x acres. Or hives no closer than x yard from a neighboring property. All towns and municipalities are given power by the State to regulate land use. The laws are usually called land use laws or zoning laws. Municipalities have very broad power (only restrained by State law, but that can be as or more restrictive than the municipality). It is surprising how intrusive the law can be in restricting a homeowner's or business' use of their own property. It is also surprising how often restrictive laws are passed without a peep from landowners. Often, the government body has no idea what they are making law, until the complaints start coming in. The way to win beekeeping battles is more with public opinion and large crowds at the meeting where such laws are put forward. Politicians and Board members listen to groups but not to the solitary beekeeper. Once the law is in effect, it is very difficult to get rid of it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:54:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: new small cell study Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, A stronger argument could be made that it is the other way 'round. > > Which came first - the comb or the egg? :) Yes I have to admit it is a ketch 22 one effects the other. I guess my point only was that AHB has "usually" a 4.8 to 4.9mm brood cell on average. In the specific case of the South American AHB used in > the study at issue, it seems to be an error to attribute > the smaller size of AHB to the comb. As I understand it, > a bee left to its own devices uses its own body as a > "caliper" of sorts to build a cells that are appropriate > to its body size. I don't know if I'd call it an error. As once the cells are drawn it establishes the future generations sizings for that colony. > It follows that bees given no foundation or only unembossed > starter strips will build whatever size cells they "naturally" > want to build. Yes. And in the case of AHB they do. But the problem maywell be that EHB has little option in the matter for a long time since foundation has universally been used. The study seems to answer few questions for the case of EHB, > and the simultaneous presentation of multiple comb sizes to > the same colony simply verified what was already well-known, > that mites "prefer" the larger (in most cases, drone-sized) cells. Yes, mites prefer drones sized cells. But I was avoiding discussing drone cell as we already know this. And was focusing on worker cells. If only drone cells were in fested in colonies they would survive. But this isn't the case with EHB. Why is it that worker cells areworked over by mites? Yet if these very worker cells were drastically reduced in infestation and infestation occured in broodnest periphery in larger transitioning cells (to a honey storage type) and drone cells which the beekeeper maintainted in natural levels. The infestation would not overwhelm the colony and it would not crash. And use of AHB. Professor DeJong's presentation to the VA State > Beekeepers meeting this year was very informative, in that he > went into detail about how beekeepers have learned the "management" > appropriate to AHB, a very different set of practices from "normal". Could you discuss these practices. I'd be interested in hearing? > Please small-cell people, don't flame me. I am taking great care > to avoid even the appearance of critiquing "small cell" here. > I am only questioning specific statements presented as fact. I though I was wearing the fire suit! I don't mean to represent everything I say as a fact. But much of what I say is my observations. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:42:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Edwards" Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Tracheal Mite Identification > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Harrison" > > Yes, I am looking for blackened trachaea as a positive indicator of acarine > infestation. You should be careful in giving a diagnosis of non infestation if the trachea is not discoloured under x10 magnification. I dissected a bee and under x10 the trachea looked clear. I dissected the trachea out to mount and under X40 found a mite lurking in it. Ruary Rudd :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:26:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification > You should be careful in giving a diagnosis of non infestation if the > trachea is not discoloured under x10 magnification. I dissected a bee and > under x10 the trachea looked clear. I dissected the trachea out to mount and > under X40 found a mite lurking in it. > > Ruary Rudd Ruary That is why I said that I would take blackened trachaea as a positive indicator of an acarine infestation, not that I would take non-discoloured trachaea as an indicator that there was no infestation at all. But is this not true for most diseases, whether we are talking about bees or any other organism? Many pathogens can be present in such small numbers that they are not apparent - a few dozen varroa, a few hundred AFB or EFB bacteria - and in most cases are not worth worrying about. In the case of acarine, I have now given up sampling or treating for it because we just do not have a problem - I think that lack of treatment caused the susceptible colonies to die out and the stock that we now have is able to cope most of the time; however, I have no doubt that there are some mites in some of my bees. Now all we have to do is achieve the same balance with varroa! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:46:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruary said: You should be careful in giving a diagnosis of non infestation if the trachea is not discoloured under x10 magnification. I dissected a bee and under x10 the trachea looked clear. I dissected the trachea out to mount and under X40 found a mite lurking in it. Ruary is right as only in a somewhat heavy & late stage infestation does the trachea become blackened (I once quit counting TM at around 200 TM in a single bee). Early and recent infestation could be missed if not confirmed by microscope. I will say *as Peter pointed out* that when I have seen the blackened trachea I have always found tracheal mites when confirmed at home with the microscope. I also believe that if I looked at enough samples of most peoples bees I would find a TM lurking in a few of the samples. Why TM levels rise and fall I do not fully understand. Ideas from the list? If Peter had said in his original post that he suspected a heavy TM infestation when he saw the *abnormal* blackened trachea I would have remained silent. I was pretty sure of what Peter meant but thought the point needed clarification for the list. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Wayne F. Young" Subject: queen excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all, I am going to place queen excluders in the bottom of some of my hives when I reverse them in a few weeks.Can any one recommend what excluder may be the most effective? Plastic ---- Metal and maybe what brand. My plan is to leave them in for most of the season to eliminate some swarming.I guess my next question would be is how to get the drones out of the way? Thank You for any advice Wayne Young :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:01:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: queen excluders Wayne writes: "I am going to place queen excluders in the bottom of some of my hives when I reverse them...I guess my next question would be is how to get the drones out of the way?" The short answer is, remove the queen excluders. The long answer to practicing swarm prevention is to keep ahead of your bees by giving them plenty of room, use only young queens, make splits if wanted, and utilize the ability of a prolific layer to produce the maximum amount of honey that the hive is capable of producing. A beekeeper is just that, one who keeps his bees. Chuck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:21:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: re-queening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings everyone, I was going through the archives regarding the matter of re-queening, trying to learn all I can about it when a question popped into my head. A lot of the discussion revolves around whether to buy a mated queen, let the hive raise a queen of their own, or insert a queen cell of your own choosing. In other words it boils down to installing a mated queen or installing, or having the bees install, a virgin queen. It occurred to me that requeening which involves a virgin queen Is limited in a way that no one I have yet read has mentioned, and that is by the conditions that are required for a queen to get, uh, er... mated. Around here, Western Washington, it might be practically June before we see a really clear warm day which is what I understand is required for a nuptial flight. So if you tried to requeen in April or May using a grafted cell, assuming you could find a queen cell, you might have to wait extra long for that queen to start laying. I think this actually happened to me last year when my brand new hive swarmed on me at the beginning of June. I could not find evidence of a queen in the old hive for a month. All the brood had emerged and I was sure the hive was queen less. What I didn't realize was that they were just waiting for me to buy a new queen and try to install her. Anyway..... so what about this possible delay due to weather preventing the nuptial flight? Would that interfere with what you all might consider timely requeening using queen cells? Or does mating occur under a wider range of conditions than I am assuming, making this approach more flexible than it seems. Then too, perhaps it is the case that the best time to requeen is just before a major honey flow, after the warm weather has completely arrived. I hope my question is clear enough to narrow the discussion. I am looking more fore insight into the factors influencing how a virgin queen might be delayed in beginning egg laying than I am for a wide ranging discussion of the pros and cons of various requeening stratagies. The archives cover this rather well. The same weather factor might also come into play in the fall of course. Here on Whidbey Island, though, the fall can be rather warm whereas the springs tend to be sort of cool and blustery. Thanks to all for this great forum Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:55:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the upstate region of New York State near Saratoga where I keep my bees, I checked my 90 hives on this fine warm day. I have stopped wrapping because of experiments I have done in the past so I was concerned this year because of the particularly cold winter, a normal winter some say. Out of the 90 I saw good life in 77 of them. It truly is a miracle after such cold as we have had. They are not out of the woods yet but things look promising. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jan 1980 21:42:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: spring inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Well we finally have had some nice weather here in Eastern Ontario. It = hit 10C (50F) today so I went to check the girls. I found 1 dead, 1 = weak, the rest fine. I checked the dead out. I found that the honey = had crystallized and the bees seem to be clustered in the empty area. = There was no brood to be found and I couldn't spot any eggs. Nothing = appeared out of the ordinary, it looked as if they would just start = walking about. There was no foul odor. My guess is they either = couldn't use the crystallized honey and starved or a cold snap hit and = they couldn't move to the honey and starved. I made up some fondant and = placed it in the hive next to the cluster on the weak hive. I've always = used Carniolans and never had a problem over wintering. However, last = year the queens arrived in terrible condition and they were all = superceded. I tried to requeen one again and they would have no part of = it. This was the hive that died. I can't seem to find anyone in = Ontario who is raising Carnie queens. Especially ones who have been = involved in the Hygienic Testing and Mite Resistance Testing programs. = Anyway I hope spring comes soon. Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: re-queening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve, Two quick comments: According to a queen breeder-—I have been doing a little reading myself as I had written the thread “Another Dud in Emergency” last week—-a virgin- queen can be celibate for as long as three weeks under inclement weather before she flies out to town to check out the old drones at the local water-hole. Still she could be hot. Check under “Mating conditions” in the following url: http://members.aol.com/queenb95/queenrear.html#anchor412485 (Although the above information is trustworthy, I have never bought a queen from the said source, however: the price is too stiff for me.) Also I would be very surprised if you do not have drones earlier than you think. The conventional wisdom in Shawnee, OK, is that there will not be any drones in early March, a generally accurate statement and a reason many Okie beekepers travel to Texas for early queen-rearing; however, this year I found flying drones as early as the second week: they usually build drone cells inbetween or below my black Pierco. We are Zone 7 [hardiness]— whatever that means. At times, it is *very* difficult to locate a virgin queen; unless I see other evidence such as laying workers or dwindling, I think queen-loss in a hive is rather rare although possible. Another thing I found today was that the splits would not start building an emergency queen as quickly as the impatient beekeeper had hoped for: they punch in their clock, sit around the break room, and pick their nose, seemingly neglecting the most important element of the hive--after three days. Good luck with your re-queening, Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 04:33:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re-queening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/03/03 05:02:18 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I could not find evidence of a queen in the old hive for a month. All the brood had emerged and I was sure the hive was queen less. What I didn't realize was that they were just waiting for me to buy a new queen and try to install her. >> I have found, too often for it to be just a casual occurence, that the new queen will not come into lay (or maybe she does and her eggs are eaten) until all her sisters have emerged. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:49:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Gurr Subject: Re: re-queening The message <000801c2ec23$8c7fee40$0200000a@paramita> from steve noble contains these words: > I was going through the archives regarding the matter of re-queening, trying > to learn all I can about it when a question popped into my head. A lot of > the discussion revolves around whether to buy a mated queen, let the hive > raise a queen of their own, or insert a queen cell of your own choosing. In > other words it boils down to installing a mated queen or installing, or > having the bees install, a virgin queen. It occurred to me that requeening > which involves a virgin queen Is limited in a way that no one I have yet > read has mentioned, and that is by the conditions that are required for a > queen to get, uh, er... mated. Around here, Western Washington, it might be > practically June before we see a really clear warm day which is what I > understand is required for a nuptial flight. snip Here in the North of Scotland, we have additional problems to re-queening. We are still in a varroa-free area and so cannot buy in queens from the breeders further south (even if we were prepared to take the risk), and there are no queen breeders this far north. There is no point in supplying young brood to the one hive which I have with a failing queen, as the drones will not appear for another two months! My only solution here is to combine the hive with the failing queen, with a strong hive and then to make a split later in the year, hoping that they will be strong enough to take advantage of the heather flow in August and September. It's getting to be that being varroa-free has a number of problems! Phil. (Northern Highlands of Scotland) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:48:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: How To Expand(and go to jail) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:06:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO In-Reply-To: <3E732EC3.7010603@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill: Sorry to disagree with you here. We went through the zoning problems for years until I used the old law and stood ground to keep our honeyhouse in the center of Tucson from rezoning into apartments. Agriculture is agriculture and zoneing is not cut in blood as you seem to think! Zoning can be changed around and manipulated quite a bit. It's knowing how to avoid this by agriculture and how to rezone it back to agric that seems lacking in knowledge by beekeepers. It is a two way street in reality. We are proof of that. So you are having problems in your area then you allude to? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:18:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: over wintered drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil from Scotland mentioned that he wont have mature drones for a = couple of months. The same is true here in Vermont, except for the = drones that over-winter. In making my spring inspections Imp always = amazed at how many drones live through. If these drones are viable is a = big question, their probably not enough to really make a mating force = anyway. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all Why is using a queen excluder on the top of the brood nest considered good beekeeping and using one on the bottom of the brood nest considered poor beekeeping. The affect is the same, restriction of the queens movements. My op ion, if I though for a moment that I would lose a hive to swarming. I would slap an excluder down there so fast that the queen wouldn't know what hit her. Force her to fight for her reign and may the strong survive. Am I wrong? Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queen Excluders under a brood nest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, Garrett, you are wrong. But you have lots of company as this comes up every two years or so. A queen excluder on top of a brood nest is appropriate (to some) as it prevents the queen from moving up into honey-gathering supers and laying eggs therein. When this happens in cut-comb supers it is nothing short of tragic. A queen excluder on the bottom of the brood nest will, it is true, prevent swarming. However, it will also cause all the drones to be kept in the hive. This seems to demoralize the hive to the extent that they stop collecting nectar. Then drones start to die, and decompose, and stink... Good beekeepers work with the bees' natural tendencies, sometimes turning them to the beekeepers advantage. There are lots and lots of other ways to prevent or minimize swarming and the most successful of these involve working with the bees instead of against them. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:08:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why is using a queen excluder on the top of the brood nest considered > good beekeeping and using one on the bottom of the brood nest > considered poor beekeeping. I doubt you will get much response to this. This has been covered well -- pro and con -- in our archives. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ US/Canada border, oxalic acid, Australian imports, computer security... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:17:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen and Everyone, > "We have come... to where...we have seen NO AFB." > Am I correct in concluding that you attribute this success to the extender patties? Yes. There is no doubt in my mind. We used dust and syrup for years and *always* had some breakdown. When we switched to extender patties, we noticed a decrease immediately, then a complete disappearance of AFB. Just a word to maintain vigilance. When OTC extender patties came into widespread use here in MN we noticed a definite drop in the incidence of AFB just like Allen is reporting. However, a few years later we started finding more AFB again. In fact we had a major increase in AFB finds and testing showed that the AFB was resistant to OTC. We has a lengthy discussion in this topic a few years back but there seems to be a linkage between use of the extender patties and the emergence of OTC resistance. At least that is what happened here. Keep up your guard AFB was not so easily defeated here. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:40:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just a word to maintain vigilance... Keep up your guard AFB was not so easily defeated here. Good point, Blane. As described, we are not just puitting on patties and hoping blindly. We are using an IPM approach, in that we pulled out all signs of AFB, maintain a watch for active, and monitor the spore count in the honey extracted. Ideeally, we would use an alternate drug periodically or have queens that all exhibit a marked resistance -- or at least no suspceptibility to -- AFB. As it is, our reduced spore count is encouraging, but if we see any increase or beakdown, we wouldn't just medicate and hope it goes away, as we understand some were doing, but we would go through the suspect yards and pull out anything suspicious and melt or irradiate it, plus anything nearby. Moreover, if we did see some AFB coming back, we'd consider sending all non-occupied brood combs to irradiation. Irradiation is becoming very popular here in Alberta, and numerous beekeepers are pooling boxes for the trip to Port Coquitlam. The benefits go beyond simply killing all and any AFB. Boxes that have made the trip apparently are so sterile that package bees produce amazing patterns, compared to the sad sight that many see on non-treated comb. Again, thanks for pointing that out. If anyone thought that we are just medicating, he/she'd have missed the entire point. Our goal in medicating is to get free of drugs. Monitoring by spore count, and perhaps bee spore counts (upcoming? Adony?), will give us that option, if we can reduce the risk of outbreaks by reducing the background spore levels and have the assurance of knowing what they are. Hygienic stock will further bolster our protection and hopefully, some day soon, we will soon be able to "Just say 'No' to drugs". allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com One old beekeeper's sandbox... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Single data point -Oxalic acid results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today was the first warm day here in Maine where I could check the hives. No losses. In fact, colonies were fairly strong after such a severe winter. We had no January or February thaw which allows the bees to void. I treated all colonies with Oxalic Acid drip last fall and no other varroa controlls. I did add my normal crisco/sugar patty for tracheal. I realize this proves absolutely nothing, but I find it encouraging. I did have some varroa last year, but no major infestation. Will be interesting to see what kind of drop, if any, I have after we finally warm up for good. Just an aside. This is the time of most bee deaths- for those of us in areas where it is fairly normal to have roller coaster temps during the time between the end of winter and no more freezes. The solution is candy easily accessed by the bees. I will be putting some on the colonies tomorrow. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Crystallization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am a hobbyist with one hive in the backyard. Yesterday was the first warm weekend in northeast Ohio (65 F) so I decided to check on the hive. Dead, unfortunately. A double handful of dead bees at the top center (right around the hole in the inner cover). More bees dead with their heads in the empty comb. From listening on this list, I know that is a sign that they starved. My confusion is that most of the frames are still heavy with honey. Less than a third of the available honey appears to have been consumed. The complication is that I think most of the honey crystallized in the comb. Most of the cells have had the tops neatly cleaned off (therefore not robbing?), but in the cell is a white grainy material. The cell is 1/2 to 3/4 full of this stuff. (Sometimes, there appears to be honey under a layer of the white.) To prove that it is crystallized honey, the only test I could think of (at least with what I can find in my kitchen) was to see if the material dissolved in water. It did. Supporting observations: Much of the fall's extracted honey is crystallizing in the jars. During the extraction last summer, I looked at some of the frames that were still full of honey from the prior year. (Last winter was very mild.) There was crystallized honey in several of them, but I somehow assumed that the bees could reliquify it, so I just put them back. Lots of pollen still in the frames. Some of the frames still have liquid honey in them. That honey is visibly a different color. It was at the edges of the hive, though - outside frames and corners. This was a very cold winter and (also from listening on this list) I suspect that the cluster may not have been able to break up far enough to reach those areas. Questions: 1. Is this covered in the archives? If so, does anyone know what keywords would work? I couldn't find much. 2. Is there an easy test to confirm that the white stuff really is crystallized honey? (The only other beekeeper I know in the area thinks that the white stuff is decomposing larvae. I would not have expected the material to dissolve in water if that were the case.) 3. If I did have large-scale crystallization, is my hypothesis that the hive starved reasonable? (Late in the fall, I did find some evidence of varroa mites, but the mite load seemed small so I left it untreated except for the screened bottom board. I use styrofoam hive bodies and supplemented the ventilation with notches in the top of the inner cover.) 4. Can bees reliquify crystallized honey? Will they? 5. If this is the problem, what can I do to prevent it next year? 6. I'm thinking that the best solution right now is to extract every frame and scrap the wax off so the new bees start over. (Pierco plastic frames. I won't get it all off but with a little elbow grease I think I can get most.) Is there a better way? ------------------------------------------ Mike Rossander 1-216-533-8294 (mobile) mike.rossander@cgey.com ______________________________________________________________________ This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini/Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO Bill Truesdell said: > In a specific juristiction, any use of the land is either > permitted by law or not. For example, beekeeping can be > restricted by law even in an agricultural zone as can be > pig raising, poultry, etc Bill sits (or sat) on a zoning board in Maine, so he may know differently, but I have not heard of any case in the USA where beekeeping was restricted in an area zoned "agricultural". The problems appear to be in areas within municipal limits and in adjacent suburban areas zoned "residential". > The nuisance aspect comes in when a use is challenged. Most > land use codes will not allow a nuisance or will put limits > on it so the nuisance is reduced. It is much more simple than that. The basic premise of zoning involves the use of regulatory bulldozers to shove problems into someone else's back yard. Given the above, the trick to "urban/suburban beekeeping" appears to be to avoid being perceived as "a problem" in the first place. Ohio has an excellent "Good Neighbor Policy", a set of guidelines for beekeepers that is also a prerequisite for getting the Ohio State Beekeepers Association to "stand behind" an embattled beekeeper. In the few "zoning issues" that have cropped up in our local community since "zoning" was adopted, there was an early and consistent pattern of clumsy arrogance born of ignorance. After being consistently overruled by the local circuit court in straight sets, the zoning board learned to base their rulings on verified facts, rather than on the unverified arguments presented at hearings. The amazing thing is that it took multiple court rulings contradicting the zoning board for them to get a clue. I see this same pattern in the Aurora, CO case, where fiction and myth promulgated by a small number of bee-phobic people were given equal weight with accurate statements offered by beekeepers. How any city council or zoning board could presume to "decide" on a "technical" issue without consulting subject-matter experts confounds me. In the case of bees, one would expect that an agricultural extension representative or professor of entomology could be asked to review statements and separate fact from fiction. While anyone with expertise in the field would be more inclined to view honey bees fondly, enlightenment is often linked to education and credentials. :) I think it would be hard to find anyone with a degree in either entomology or agriculture who would define honey bees as even a potential problem in a "residential" area. > The way to win beekeeping battles is more with public opinion and large > crowds at the meeting where such laws are put forward. Politicians and > Board members listen to groups but not to the solitary beekeeper. Sad that Maine is still governed by "mob-ocracy". How often do the mobs roam the streets? :) Sure, a "mob" is great, but only if you are smart enough to convince the media to show up and report on the mob's opposition. Invisibility most often means irrelevance, and the typical zoning board (a clique of wannabes with dreams of running for school board next year, toiling in well-deserved obscurity) knows that a local reporter is the only power that can hold them accountable. But nothing beats the calmly-made statement that one's opponents are blatantly lying combined with a formal demand for an impartial expert to review the main points of each side of the argument. In the USA, the 5th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits the government from "taking private property" without "just compensation". There is a substantial body of case law that have defined restrictions on land use as a "taking", subject to the control of 5th Amendment. While beekeeping is invariably a "hobby" in the suburbs, there is always a "loss of income" aspect to any restriction of beekeeping, which implies that lifetime compensation would be due all beekeepers subjected to zoning restriction. Time to read up on "net present value" and "internal rate of return", kids. How much honey, pollen and wax might you sell in this lifetime? :) There is also the 14th Amendment, which guarantees "due process" and "equal protection". The most basic violation of "equal protection" would be allowing unverified claims to become factors in a regulation. So if one's zoning board rules poorly, they are easy to overturn at the local courthouse, often conveniently located near the offices of the zoning board. Taking a longer view, "regime change" begins at home. :) Vote early, vote often, and make sure that town hall employees, as well as one's neighbors, never lack for honey. jim (who wants only his land, and all the land that adjoins it) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Buckwheat, Return for Acre Planted To All Buckwheat Honey Producers 1) Have there been any definitive studies regarding planting of buckwheat and the return per acre in pounds of honey? 2) Has one had experience in the production of buckwheat for honey and if so how many acres of drilled buckwheat is needed to produce a honey crop? 3) In my neck of the woods after the end of July we no not have a nectar flow until the asters and goldenrods of September and October. With honey prices up along with the antioxidant qualities of buckwheat honey the planting of buckwheat after the harvest of winterwheat would produce a buckwheat bloom that dovetails right into the full month of August. Question is: Dependent upon knowing yields would this be profitable? Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC (Who is looking for leprechauns and gold under my hives today) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:05:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question You mention "irradiating" your hives and/or frames in Port Coquitlam. Could you share who does this for you and how much the procedure costs? What process is used in the irradiation of the equipment (ie. UV etc)? Best Regards, Mark Walker. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:25:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Mar 2003 to 17 Mar 2003 (#2003-77) In-Reply-To: <200303180501.h2I4nc5j010108@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mr. Martin wrote: > I would slap an excluder down there so fast that the queen > wouldn't know what hit her. Certainly the queen wouldn't/couldn't leave the hive. Supposition: Supercedure queen hatches and kills the old queen. Can a virgin queen pass through an excluder? If not, then you have a brand new virgin queen in the hive with no way to get out for a mating flight. Now what? Mike in south central Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:22:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Re-queening In-Reply-To: <10c.2102d200.2ba6f057@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <10c.2102d200.2ba6f057@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >I have found, too often for it to be just a casual occurence, that the new >queen will not come into lay (or maybe she does and her eggs are eaten) until >all her sisters have emerged. > >Chris This is actually an erroneous assumption commonly made, and often repeated as gospel, when it is really just a natural coincidence between the time intervals involved in raising a new queen totalling a similar amount of time as it takes for the worker brood to mature and hatch. You can prove it wrong by shortcircuiting the process using near hatching cells in a freshly made split with brood in all stages. (We do this all the time.) Except in the poorest of conditions when mating is delayed you will find the new queen mated and laying long before the previous queens brood has all hatched. Queen breeders just re-cell their nucs immediately they harvest a queen from them, and two weeks later (sometimes less) they get another laying queen, a full week before the previous queens brood has hatched. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:42:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Trattle Subject: Re: Crystallization question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From your description this is almost certainly crystallised stores. If the white grainy material is soluble in water that would confirm this. In order to use this bees need to gather water to reliquify it. If it's to cold to fly they can't do this so they starve. The best way to avoid this is to feed enough syrup in the autumn so your sure the bees have sufficient stores that aren't going too granulate. Once the weather warms up and the bees are flying freely these combs can be used to feed colonies that need it. I would uncap the crystallised cells first to make sure the bees deal with the problem straight away. I've seen this problem here in the UK especially when we get a good late flow from ivy. I feed during the ivy flow in an attempt to dilute the ivy nectar with syrup. Regards Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini/Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 13/03/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 13/03/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Queen Excluders under a brood nest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:37:00 -0500 Lloyd Spear writes: > Unfortunately, Garrett, you are wrong. > it will also cause all the drones to be kept in > the > hive. This seems to demoralize the hive to the extent that they > stop > collecting nectar. Then drones start to die, and decompose, and > stink... You are right I am wrong. I had not thought of it from that angle. I have done this in the past in an emergency with a hive that was determined to swarm. I do agree that good beekeeping practices are the best way to control swarming, but I find with my lack of experience that at times I manipulate the hive wrong and send them on a swarming rampage. This was supposedly my backup plan. I am once again the victim of my own mistakes =) Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: New(er) Small Cell Study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, To your list, I would like to add a few more variables. 1. A small space makes small bees: last year I retrieved a feral colony from someone’s backyard, living in an abandon square box, the size of 17” computer monitor. The box was made of composite-pressed-wood material, and it was falling apart. I found that the bees built diagonal combs to maximize the given tight space: adaptable, they utilized the space as best as they could, though. What astonished me was their size: I could tell they were visibly smaller than my Italians. In fact, a friend of mine thought they could be German bees. To my untrained eye, I could tell their size was a direct result of living in such confined quarters: they regressed themselves. Given such findings and variables, it appears not that easy to measure any “normal” comb size among feral bee combs. 2. How many years of being feral will make them build smaller cells? Most feral bees, indeed, do seem to live in smaller-size cells. [Here, feral bees, this is my working definitnon, are bees living in the wild in the absence of nearby apiary] But could this be a result of recycling old combs over and over, thus thickening the wall with living debris? And then once having used to live in such a reduced cell, are they maintaining that size since they had been born into one? I just do not know. At what stage of being feral, I am curious, too, do they regress? In the first year, in the second, or the third? (Another dissertation topic here) And beyond at what point do they build small-cells exclusively? 3. What about those feral bees that did not seem to have regressed at all for whatever the reason? Why are they still living? Disinterested in the topic, I have yet to record any cell-size so far, while collecting feral bees; however, I have seen feral bees that were as big, if not bigger, as my Carniolans, especially drones. They should have perished a long time ago. “Nothing that is so is so,” to quote Bill Shakespeare. 4. As Adrian pointed out a while back, could it be that the mites are getting weaker, having gone through the phases: the initial devastation of the host, a stasis of equilibrium between the two, the host and pestilence, and the final recovery of the host, something like Hegelian Dialectics? Assuming such postulation, one can argue almost anything, not knowing the intricate variables—-such as last year, I wore red underwear exclusively whenever I worked my bees, and Voi la, none of my bees got killed! Someone said, “The last doctor that treats the sick is always the best doctor” since by then the patient has recovered on his/her own. Yoon Shawnee, OK First cut-comb super on today. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 05:45:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tetracycline product question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.iotron.com/ About $6 CAD per super. allen Mark Walker wrote: > You mention "irradiating" your hives and/or frames in Port Coquitlam. > Could you share who does this for you and how much the procedure > costs? What process is used in the irradiation of the equipment (ie. > UV etc)? > > Best Regards, > Mark Walker. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info > --- http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Apistan Strip Procedures I have just purchased , for the first time, Apistan strips for my spring Varoa treatment. In the past I've relied on Formic Pads, however, this year I'm going to try using Apistan in the Spring and Formic in the Fall. As I purchased the strips in bulk, there are no instructions attached, except for to use 1 strip for every 5 frames of bees. My question is, how do I apply the strips to the hive? Where do I hang the strips and how close together. Also, how close to the bees (ie. in the middle of the brood chamber and populataion? Cheers, Mark Walker. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 07:45:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Crystallization question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Mike asks about crystallized honey and wintering bees. Mike it sounds to me that your colony died due to something other than the crystalized honey. First during cold weather the bees produce enough metabolic water to be able to use granulated sugar so granulated honey should not be a problem. It sounds like the cluster was pretty small which is due to some other underlying cause like mite problems or disease or poor quality stores ( honey with too high ash content or honeydew honey ). My guess and it is only a guess from this distance is probably mites or not enough room in the broodnest to rear enough young bees in the fall. A small cluster is usually dead in the spring if you have a long cold winter. What were your mite levels last fall? Survey work done by the WI state apiarist clearly shows increasing winter mortality when varroa mite levels in the fall are 1% or greater using the alchol wash method. Tracheal mites will also lead to small clusters that tend to die in the winter with enough stores still in the hive but again the cluster dwindles down until it is just too small to maintain temperatures. The underlying problem in many winter losses is too small a cluster of healthy bees which leads to starvation in the midst of plenty of stores since they don't cover enough stores to make it through a cold winter. Many of these will make it through a mild winter but not a cold long one. As long as the hive didn't die out due to American Foulbrood ( AFB) you can simply reuse the combs. In the warmer weather the bees can bring in water to dissolve the crystalized honey. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Bill sits (or sat) on a zoning board in Maine, so he may know > differently, but I have not heard of any case in the USA where > beekeeping was restricted in an area zoned "agricultural". > The problems appear to be in areas within municipal limits and > in adjacent suburban areas zoned "residential". Still am Chairman. Uses can be restricted in any zone. Each zone has its permitted uses and they can be broad or restrictive. My point was not that beekeeping has been restricted in an agricultural zone but that it can be. For example, an area may be zoned for residential but certain types of residences may not be allowed (ie. trailers, modular homes, slab foundations, too high buildings, apartment houses, etc.). The area I am in is zoned rural. Agriculture is allowed but pig and poultry farming is not. Cows and horses are OK. (Give me the rational for that.) > Given the above, the trick to "urban/suburban beekeeping" appears > to be to avoid being perceived as "a problem" in the first place. The great truth of most zoning laws. > In the few "zoning issues" that have cropped up in our local > community since "zoning" was adopted, there was an early > and consistent pattern of clumsy arrogance born of ignorance. One problem I found when I first came to the Board was they were not following the law but doing what they thought was "right". Had anyone taken us to court, we would have lost. The key here is that the Zoning Board is a "quasi judicial" body and as such must follow the law and not what they think is right. If a Board is doing its job correctly, it is merely upholding the law and will seldom be overturned. The law may be dumb or uninformed, but that is not the problem of the Board. > > In the case of bees, one would expect that an agricultural extension > representative or professor of entomology could be asked to review > statements and separate fact from fiction. Absolutely. Bring experts whenever you can. >>The way to win beekeeping battles is more with public opinion and large >>crowds at the meeting where such laws are put forward. Politicians and >>Board members listen to groups but not to the solitary beekeeper. > > Sad that Maine is still governed by "mob-ocracy". > How often do the mobs roam the streets? :) A "mob" is needed in the making of the law rather than its enforcement. Here is where the expert can have great effect. A board is different. We listen to everyone who comes to a meeting but have to enforce the zoning law, even if we disagree with it and even if there is a large crowd. Several times the Board considered the law bad. I publicly advised the applicants to see their local rep and get the law changed, since the law was stupid for that situation, too broad and its consequences were never thought out. > Sure, a "mob" is great, but only if you are smart enough to convince > the media to show up and report on the mob's opposition. I have worked with the media on many occasions to fight a bad ordinance. They love a good fight. But you had best be right and truthful. > In the USA, the 5th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits the > government from "taking private property" without "just compensation". > There is a substantial body of case law that have defined restrictions > on land use as a "taking", subject to the control of 5th Amendment. > While beekeeping is invariably a "hobby" in the suburbs, there is always > a "loss of income" aspect to any restriction of beekeeping, Loss of income is not "taking". The land has to be made worthless or nearly so and unsellable. It is a very difficult thing to prove. There are too many cases where laws took uses from a landowner and dropped the land's resale value. But since the land could still be used in other ways, or restricted in the current use, it could be sold, albeit at a loss, so is not taking. We run into this often. It is the foundation for granting or not granting variances. Zoning laws and the competence of Boards vary from place to place and also vary in time. I am blessed with a competent Board. But the key is not convincing a Board, it is keeping the law off the books in the first place. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Crystallization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Rossander wrote: > I am a hobbyist with one hive in the backyard. Yesterday was the first > warm weekend in northeast Ohio (65 F) so I decided to check on the hive. > Dead, unfortunately. A double handful of dead bees at the top center > (right around the hole in the inner cover). More bees dead with their > heads in the empty comb. From listening on this list, I know that is a > sign that they starved. My confusion is that most of the frames are still > heavy with honey. Less than a third of the available honey appears to have > been consumed. > > The complication is that I think most of the honey crystallized in the > comb. What caused the colony death may be more than just starvation, but I am only going to address the problem of crystallized honey. I suffered colony losses in the past because of fall honey. In Maine, it crystallizes quickly. It is dark honey and has more stuff in it for bees to void. Another problem was honeydew coming in during the fall which also kills bees. Bees can re-liquefy crystallized honey, but honey does not liquefy all at once. There is a progression and you can get fermentation of the partially liquefied honey which also kills bees. I follow George Imire's advice and extract at the end of the main summer flow (clover), super over the inner cover so the bees take down summer honey into the overwintering brood boxes and fill the supers with fall honey. I then pull the supers in the fall so my bees have little or no fall honey. I seldom lost colonies after that. George's system works. Plus it gives you exceptionally strong colonies in the spring and I get consistently (about 4 to 5 times) more honey than the State average which is what I got before shifting to George's way of beekeeping. It does require two honey harvests, but is worth it. In fact. I sell or give away most of the summer honey and keep the fall to myself, since it is the best. Another option is to feed sugar syrup in the fall, but I found that my bees were fine and did not need it. Now the only feeding I ever do is candy in the late winter/early spring (candy is going on today). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Apistan Strip Procedures Mark, put the strip between two frames, and there's a little tab that bends out which allows you to rest the strip on the top of the frames. This is so you can find it easy when it comes time to pull it out. Put them right in the brood area. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:30:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Apistan Strip Procedures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Apistan strips are not sold in bulk. What you have here is somebody reselling from a pack of 100 strips. This occurs here occasionally, and the reseller is doing a great disservice by not photocopying the legal label and giving it with the individual strips. He most likely is breaking the law. Ask the seller to provide you with a copy of the complete instructions as you will also need to know what precautions to take when handling and disposing of the product. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Walker" To: Sent: March 17, 2003 12:26 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Apistan Strip Procedures > As I purchased the strips in bulk, there are no instructions attached, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 05:21:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ccdrogan@AOL.COM Subject: Pierco and fully drawn plastic comb Comments: To: FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Wanting to get your opinion on Pierco all plastic frames and also your opinion if anyone has used the fully drawn plastic comb frames (ie.. all the cells are full drawn and made of plastic, bees just have to cap them off). Thanks, Charles :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:53:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Apistan Strip Procedures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" walker@DCCNET.COM writes, "As I purchased the strips in bulk, there are no instructions attached ...." I almost let this query slide because it is SOOOO covered extensively in the archives. "Apistan Use" yields over 250 hits! I went perusing through the archives to review some of the answers and the prevalent thread that emerges, instructions or not, beekeepers either won't or can't or are simply unwilling to follow the directions or are hell bent on misinterpreting them. It's truly amazing! Be that as it may, when questions are asked repeatedly it is my opinion that the current answers given to the perennial questions are not nearly as good as the answers you will find in the archives if you'll swim in those waters. Good Apistan use instructions: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9811D&L=bee-l&P=R3877&m=219 27 The rest of the story: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=Apistan+use&s=&f=&a=&b = Search the BEE-L Archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris: thinking you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it search the archives!! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:52:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Crystallization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mike it sounds to me that your colony died due to something other than > the crystalized honey. Exactly. The problem with diagnosing on the 'net is that we cannot see the hive. In my personal experience, the thing that kills beginners' hives more than anything else -- assuming mites and disease are in check -- is new (sometimes half-drawn) comb and overmanipulation. Bees that have settled into a hive and not been overly distrubed, and that have not had their brood combs moved around too much by an amateur, usually winter quite nicely. Hives that have been 'helped' too much die with amazing frequency. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Apistan Strip Procedures Peter John Keating wrote: "Apistan strips are not sold in bulk. What you have here is somebody reselling from a pack of 100 strips.......He most likely is breaking the law." He is breaking the law! The repackaging of any insecticide for resale requires an EPA Est. number and the consent of the manufacturer. That's why you will see EPA Reg. No.2724-406 on the Apistan 10 & 100 packs for the registration and EPA Est. No 2724-TX-1 on the Establishment Number, where the stuff is packaged. James Fischer posted the following last November 25th: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211D&L=bee-l&P=R1072 This is important reading for the use of Apistan. One important point that the post made was: In the United States, the instructions on the label are the law. They must be followed, even if varying from what the authors say in the above article or other writings on the subject. In addition, when applying Apistan(R), or any reg- istered chemical, the person must have in his possession a copy of the label. Call Dadant, Mann Lake, or Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, USA Distributors for Apistan, and ask for a copy of the the labeling instructions; and, while you are at it ask for the Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS, as well. When applying pesticides at anytime it is always best to read the label, if you have questions or do not understand something ask the Distributor or a licensed pesticide dealer, you are paying for their services as well as the product. Chuck Norton NC Licensed Pesticide Dealer #3885 Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:57:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles is looking for 'opinions'. I had perhaps 1,000 Pierco frames in hives, but am getting rid of them as quickly as I can. For some reason, stupidity, ignorance, or a misguided attempt to save money, someone designed the Pierco mold to have the top bar a full 1/8" less deep than standard wood bars. This results in an absurd amount of burr comb (because bee space is violated) and a dripping mess when two boxes are separated. In addition to the mess, the bees get disturbed by all the activity involved in trying to separate such boxes and are more aggressive than otherwise. While all manufacturers dimensions are not exactly alike, my frames are a combination of those from Kelley, Dadant, Betterbee, and 'homemade'. All share the same difficulty. This problem is so bad that one supply house 'invented' a hive tool about 15" long for the specific reason of prying apart such boxes! Of course, this difficulty can be solved by cutting down the boxes...but why waste the labor when such good alternatives are available? In addition, if you cut down the boxes, what would you do with the wood frames you have now? In addition to the bee space problem, many commercial beekeepers will not use Pierco frames because they slip too much and jam certain extracting lines... I have no experience with Permacomb, but have always thought it was very expensive. IMHO, the best frames to use are wood, with either Plasticell (from Dadant and others) or Duracomb foundation. Duracomb can be hard to find, but several of the smaller dealers in the Midwest carry it. I buy mine coated with beeswax, but am told that in a strong flow the uncoated works just as well. My advice to hobbyists is to buy the coated as it is more forgiving than the uncoated. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:08:21 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO Bill mused: > The area I am in is zoned rural. Agriculture is allowed but pig and > poultry farming is not. Cows and horses are OK. (Give me the rational for that.) That's easy - large pig and chicken farms generate significant volumes of concentrated pollutants, and these must be well away from rivers, streams, and wells to protect public water supplies in flood and "overflow" scenarios. > Loss of income is not "taking". The land has to be made worthless or > nearly so and unsellable. It is not surprising that someone that sits on a zoning board would imagine such narrow Constitutional limits on a zoning board. :) Judges clearly disagree. The mere number of cases litigated prove that the courts have jurisdiction over a wide range of "lesser takings". A "taking" need only prevent a citizen from continuing an existing profitable (or enjoyable) activity to be a "taking". Even a water line easement is a "taking", which is why one must often "buy" an easement. Yes, the total award can be reduced in the calculus of figuring the (new) "market value" of the land, but even a retired person who keeps a few hives of bees and sells his honey from his porch can show tangible damages if he is forced to stop keeping bees on his land. If the use at issue is restricted due to what is, in effect, a land-use change (for example, an "agricultural" area that becomes "residential" or the case in Aurora, CO, where a new restriction is being created from whole cloth), the traditional approach is to "grandfather" existing uses to avoid being overturned by the courts. > It is a very difficult thing to prove. While proof is problematic in many "development", "land-speculator" or "wetland" cases, the situation where a specific existing activity like beekeeping might be banned is much more clear-cut. There is no "speculative" aspect to the restricted land use. The impact would be very direct, the use would be a "traditional use" and the damages could be documented with ease. > But the key is not convincing a Board, it is keeping the law off the > books in the first place. Agreed, but it is hard to stop a local official from being "responsive" to "citizen complaints", no matter how silly. If I was dealing with your zoning board or town council, I'd come to the first meeting with an injunction (easy to get when one can use terms like "livelihood", "traditional use", and "right to farm"), and make a very short statement before anyone even started to consider the issue. The statement would be "Game over, dude." :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >> Loss of income is not "taking". The land has to be made worthless >> or nearly so and unsellable. > > It is not surprising that someone that sits on a zoning board would > imagine such narrow Constitutional limits on a zoning board. :) > > Judges clearly disagree. The mere number of cases litigated prove > that the courts have jurisdiction over a wide range of "lesser > takings". snip > If the use at issue is restricted due to what is, in effect, a > land-use change (for example, an "agricultural" area that becomes > "residential" or the case in Aurora, CO, where a new restriction is > being created from whole cloth), the traditional approach is to > "grandfather" existing uses to avoid being overturned by the courts. I follow the local and State and Federal laws. I cannot make Constitutional decisions. We have a good case study book that I insure all the ZBA members get, which is our guidance in tough cases. Almost all are variances. Grandfathering is the normal method of handling zoning changes, but they only deal with existing uses on the land. Plus they then fall under additional laws. The use does not necessarily always continue with the land, so it can die with the owner or with a prolonged non-use. If you are not doing it at the time of the change, even if it had been done before on the land, you will not be grandfathered. >> It is a very difficult thing to prove. > > While proof is problematic in many "development", "land-speculator" > or "wetland" cases, the situation where a specific existing activity > like beekeeping might be banned is much more clear-cut. There is no > "speculative" aspect to the restricted land use. The impact would be > very direct, the use would be a "traditional use" and the damages > could be documented with ease. > The problem here is just what I said above about the use has to be in effect at the time of any change to the code. You might be able to start beekeeping after the change, but could be challenged, depending on the law. >> But the key is not convincing a Board, it is keeping the law off >> the books in the first place. > > > Agreed, but it is hard to stop a local official from being > "responsive" to "citizen complaints", no matter how silly. If I was > dealing with your zoning board or town council, I'd come to the first > meeting with an injunction (easy to get when one can use terms like > "livelihood", "traditional use", and "right to farm"), and make a > very short statement before anyone even started to consider the > issue. > > The statement would be "Game over, dude." :) I actually look forward to the hard ones. If you are in the area with your injunction, we meet the first and third Mondays. :) Getting a bit esoteric and away from beekeeping. If you get back to the original problem, it is a problem of law and a change to the law, which is where most all problems in zoning originate. Best course there is keep the law for going into effect in the first place, with which we both agree. We could go on with this forever, but I will give you the last shot. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:09:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] update Aurora, CO Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Jim "Judges clearly disagree. The mere number of cases litigated prove that the courts have jurisdiction over a wide range of "lesser takings". A "taking" need only prevent a citizen from continuing an existing profitable (or enjoyable) activity to be a "taking".' The wide range of opinions regarding this zoning matter only serves to highlight the confused state of our (U.S.) legal system especially when it relates to zoning, imminent domain, and related matters. In fact any attempt to present this issue as though it were a cut and dried legal issue is absurd. No one can deny that it will take persistence, tact, imagination, diplomacy and fancy foot work to get a desirable outcome from the urban beekeeper's point of view. The best approach is clearly one that avoids drawing battle lines because getting deeply ensnarled with the American legal system can be a nightmare as well as a crap shoot. IMHO Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:30:36 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Apistan Strip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst Apistan is being discussed, am I correct, that when obtained in small quantities (packs of ten) - it arrives in sealed foil/plastic packaging. But when obtained in larger amounts - it is delivered in a cardboard, difficult to reseal container, allowing possible accelerated deterioration of the strips before actual use in a bee colony. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:58:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leen and Maria van den Berg Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Charles is looking for 'opinions'. I had perhaps 1,000 Pierco frames in > hives, but am getting rid of them as quickly as I can. I don't agree. We have Pierco in almost all of our honey supers and we really like them. We run around 850-900 hives for honey and super two or three times. In our uncapping system, Cowen, they handle nicely. We throw out may be 20 every season, compared to 80 wooden ones out of about 700 boxes with wooden frames left after. For the brood frames, once they are built, the queen lays from top to bottom and side to side. Maria van den Berg, Peace River area, Alberta. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:51:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd, I cannot agree with you more about Pierco’s violating bee space: it is disgusting enough for having to lift the deep super, loaded with honey, yet having to twist the whole box while holding it up, while possibly crushing bees in the process or pulling frames from under, is damnable, period. For I am having to pay for someone’s mistake while breaking my back. We should boycott the product until they fix the problem in their top-bar thickness. Otherwise, we shall waste another thread on piano- wire, again. Let each one of us voice our dissatisfaction to the manufacturer and the dealer. Saving few bucks in plastic mold ain’t as worth as saving our back, not to mention the wasted combs, honey, broods, and the whole clumsy circus, involved in *un-stucking* the glued boxes, while making the girls ANGRY and getting stung. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:30:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pierco and fully drawn plastic comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will "second" everything Lloyd Spear wrote. The ONLY thing that I have found made of plastic for use in apiculture is Dadant's PLASTICELL which I switched to over 20 years ago. Everything else is JUNK. But there are some people who really like brussel sprouts. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:00:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ONTARIO_BEEKEEPERS'_ASSOCIATION__SPRING_COMMERCIAL_MEETING?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_APRIL_3=2C_2003?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ONTARIO BEEKEEPERS' ASSOCIATION SPRING COMMERCIAL MEETING THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 SEELEY'S BAY/KINGSTON REGISTRATION FEE: $30.00 + GST ($32.10) AGENDA Davies Apiaries, Seeley's Bay 8:30 am Tour Day's Inn, Kingston - Salon A Program Chair: Paul Kelly 10:00 am Registration and Coffee 10:30 am Welcome and OBA Update, Bill Minnick, President 10:45 am Canadian Honey Council Activities, Heather Clay, National Coordinator 11:15 am The Australian 'BQual' Program, Trevor Weatherhead, President, Australian Queen Bee Breeder's Association 12:00 pm Lunch - on your own in the Denny's Restaurant on site or local restaurants 1:15 pm Canadian on Farm Food Safety, Wink Howland, President, Canadian Honey Council 1:45 pm Provincial Apiarist's Report, Doug McRory, Ontario Ministry of Agriculture & Food 2:00 pm Formic for the Future, David VanderDussen, NOD Apiary Products Ltd. 3:00 pm Coffee Break 3:30 pm Expect the Unexpected - The 2002 Tech Transfer Season, Alison Skinner, Project Leader, Tech Transfer Program ~~~~~ 6:30 pm Canadian Honey Council's Interactive Web Site for Risk Assessment - demonstration and discussion Rudy Gelderblom EVERYONE WELCOME Note: It would be helpful if you could register in advance. Cheque would have to be received by April 1 or phone or fax the OBA office with your Mastercard or Visa credit card number, expiry and cardholder name. Nametag and receipt will be ready for you at the registration desk. Pat Westlake, Business Administrator Ontario Beekeepers' Association Bayfield, ON N0M 1G0 519-565-2622 phone 519-565-5452 fax :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: ANNUAL ONTARIO BEE BREEDERS' MEETING FRIDAY, APRIL 4, 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANNUAL ONTARIO BEE BREEDERS' MEETING FRIDAY, APRIL 4, 2003 - DAY'S INN, KINGSTON Sponsored by: Ontario Beekeepers' Association - Ontario Bee Breeders' Association REGISTRATION FEE: $40.00 + GST ($42.80) AGENDA Tercentenary Room Program Chair: Francois Petit 8:30 am Registration 9:00 am Australian Queen Production Business Trevor Weatherhead, President, Australian Queen Bee Breeder 's Association 9:45 am Russian Bee Project Update Francois Petit, Russian Queen Breeder 10:15 am Coffee Break 11:00 am Update on the Tech Transfer Program - data from 2002, plans for 2003 Alison Skinner, Janet Tam, Shannon Melin 12:00 pm Luncheon Nuc Production and Overwintering Wink Howland, Canadian Honey Council President, Saskatchewan Queen Producer 1:30 pm Bee Breeding: Getting the Most from Genetics Geoff Wilson, University of Guelph 2:00 pm Buckfast Bees in Ontario Barry Davies, Paul Montoux, Geoff Wilson 2:30 pm Special Projects in Australia - Queen Importation Station, Closed Population Breeding, Small Hive Beetle, Trevor Weatherhead 3:15 pm Coffee Break 3:30 pm Business Session ¨ nuc quality standards ¨ pricing - nucs, queens ¨ Summer Meeting Queen Auction ¨ EAS participation EVERYONE WELCOME Note: There will be a group luncheon (not included - individual bills) in Denny's side room (right of Denny's Restaurant's main entrance). Wink Howland will give a presentation following the luncheon. Pat Westlake, Business Administrator info@ontariobee.com Ontario Beekeepers' Association Bayfield, ON N0M 1G0 519-565-2622 phone 519-565-5452 fax :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:29:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb In-Reply-To: <005c01c2ed67$0c69a620$1d256118@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > For some reason, stupidity, ignorance, or a > misguided attempt to save money, > someone designed the Pierco mold to have the top bar > a full 1/8" less deep > than standard wood bars. This results in an absurd > amount of burr comb > (because bee space is violated) and a dripping mess > when two boxes are > separated ... the bees get > disturbed by all the > activity involved in trying to separate such boxes > and are more aggressive > than otherwise. I had the same problem, though on a smaller scale. I put these in one hive, in two deeps. Every time I separated the boxes, I ripped a few hundred brood cells apart, then had to spend a few minutes scraping the young-uns off the top bars. I'd get ticked off, too, if I were the bees. I really like the convenience of not having to hammer frames and foundation together, but it'd be nice if they redesigned these things. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:56:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: ANNUAL MEETING OF KAUNAS BEEKEEPERS' SOCIETY, MARCH 22, 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends Annual meeting of Kaunas Beekeepers' Society is held on March 22, 2003 at Palace of Agriculture http://www.zur.lt/, street Donelaicio 2, Kaunas, (Lithuania). Registration available since 10 AM Meeting starts at 11 AM Calendar: 1. Report of Kaunas Beekeepers' Society Chairman 2. Report of Revision Committee 3. Program of Society activities at 2003 4. Discussions of Society members 5. Hot topics and problems of beekeeping 6. Get-together hour with beekeeping goods (kind of Bring Own Mead) All beekeepers are welcome Board of Kaunas Beekeepers' Society Submitted by Rimantas Zujus Amateur beekeeper Kaunas, Lithuania 55 North, 24 East ICQ 4201422 http://gytis.lei.lt/~zujus/ e-mail : zujus@mail.lei.lt http://www.lei.lt (Lithuanian Energy Institute) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:20:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pierco one-piece frame has been redesigned several times as molds wear out and it is really quite different than it was 25, even 10 years ago. The ears are stronger, etc. I was wondering if this top bar problem is still an issue with the newer model or are these reports based on product produced years ago? We don't purchase the Pierco one-piecers anymore for reasons other than those stated in previous posts, but we do use the Pierco inserts. We have tried a few thousand sheets each of Permadent, Durocomb, Plasticell, etc, etc, but our testing always came up Pierco. Quicker acceptance, quality, ease to work with, etc. The differences were subtle, but in our minds enough avoid the others if we could. Suffice to say, we'll only be putting in Pierco (10,000 sheets) this year. We prefer the black. The competion may have changed their molds in the last couple of years, but Pierco (inserts & one-piecers) did have more cells per side than anyone else. Everyone else was making a bigger cell pattern, for bigger bees, more open surface area, what have you. I think the molds were also cheaper and easier to produce with those larger cells. Pierco stuck to the more traditional measurements, maybe that is why we see some of the thnigs we like about their product. Pierco sells a pile of frames George, so in my mind it's more like: Some people drive Chevs, some drive Dodges & some prefer Fords. Dave Tharle Ardmore,AB P.S. IMHO, the one true disaster (in our climate at least) is Duragilt. It was the first generation of plastic foundation inserts and can make you sick at just about anytime of the year or at any point of the operation. Perhaps it's the Brussel Sprouts. Thankfully the industry moved on. DMT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lynn H. Lang" Subject: Vermont Beekeepers Workshops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit VERMONT BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION BEEKEEPING SEMINARS FOR 2003 29 March - Equipment Building , Bill Whitcomb A seminar on building bee equipment will be held at Bill Whitcomb’s shop. It is located on Rt. 22A south of Vergennes, right at the Panton-Addison town line. 5 April - Unpacking and Spring Inspections, Bill Mraz 26 April - Reversing, Inspection, Steve Parise 24 May - Making Nucleus Colonies, James Gabriel 28 June - Supering – Comb and Extracting Supers, Lynn Lang 30 August - Taking Off Honey and Extracting, Bill Whitcomb 11 October - Winter Packing and Feeding, Kirk Webster All meetings except for the first one, will be held at the VBA Bee yard in Addison at Yankee Kingdom Orchard on Lake Street. Time is 12:00 – 2:00 P.M. The Sunday following the above dates will be the backup day in case of inclement weather. The seminars are free. All participants should bring veils and wear long sleeved shirts and long pants in light colors. Lynn H. Lang Sec. VBA Langfarm@together.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:57:15 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Multiple Swarms Available @ Pomona College, Claremont, CA USA - Possible Removal Fees Anyone want some free spring swarms? Someone might as well go gather them up as let some pest control operator kill them. I'd go myself, but current security concerns mean that bees as carry-on luggage are a serious logistical problem. :) jim ========================================================= "Bees Cause A Buzz On Campus" (David Allen in the Ontario, CA Daily Bulletin 2003-03-20) http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203~23112~1252892,00.html FORGET "THE BIRDS," it's the bees that seem to be terrorizing Pomona College. At least that's how it appears from the police blotter section of the Student Life newspaper, in which these chilling calls appeared: * "A student reported bees coming out of the fluorescent ceiling fixture in her Harwood (dorm) residence." * "A staff member reported a swarm of bees in the parking lot between Big Bridges (auditorium) and the baseball field. Officers cordoned off the area." * "An anonymous person reported bees in the northwest tower of Harwood. The student also reported bees coming out of sprinklers ... " * "A different Harwood resident reported thousands of bees swarming outside ..." Thousands of bees? Well, that's the buzz. But what to do about them? While cordoning off parts of the college may seem effective in some quarters - such as the French Department - my feeling is that Pomona's containment strategy is little more than appeasement. What's needed is an ultimatum. The bees must offer a full accounting of their pollen, and the queen bee has 48 hours to flee the campus. Otherwise, pest control will attack at a time of their choosing. Oh, and worker bees, if you're attacked, do not defend the hive. And for goodness' sake, don't destroy your stores of honey! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:43:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb In-Reply-To: <001f01c2eeeb$ec872400$903c22cf@tntapi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I was wondering if > this top bar problem is > still an issue with the newer model or are these > reports based on product > produced years ago? Mine were purchased just a year ago. I have all kinds of problems with the burr comb on top and bottom. Eugene Makovec __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in NW PA it doesnt look like any bees will even be available this year. The "Big" guy is saying prob not, he is expecting to find a mess when he returns to the state and the other guy said nope, too hard a winter. The average beekeeper here ran on average 60-80% losses and many new bk's lost all. Im praying to find some swarms because packages just dont seem to do as well a nuke. Lets pray for a mild summer and no so horrid winter! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 12:12:15 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apistan Strip Stability Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr In-Reply-To: <3E77BA2C.76E9B3D5@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Peter, Wellmark International of Dallas have the rights to Apistan in North America where the product is provided in packs of 100 strips. Long-term studies have shown that this Apistan formulation is stable in the carton provided. These studies must be provided to the EPA before a licence will be given. There is no problem, so far as I know, with stability. Vita (Europe) Limited own the product in the rest of the world, where we pack and sell in sachets of ten strips. The Apistan sold outside North America is a slightly different formulation. In most other countries, Apistan is considered to be a veterinary medicine rather than a pesticide. For veterinary registration, the formulation specification, including stability of the product, are even more tightly regulated and we know that the "European" Apistan is stable in its 10-strip sachet packaging for 3 years. The appropriate studies were performed many years ago using this packaging material and by law that is how we provide the product today. So, there should be no degradation of the product, stored as per the label instructions in either case. If for any reason, such a problem is suspected users in North America should contact Wellmark International directly or Vita (Europe) Limited outside North America. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:32:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Is the burr comb problem with the plastic frames a spacing problem or is it a material problem? I have wondered if the plastic is similar enough to the wax combs to the bees that they just "continue" the comb so to speak resulting in the burring problems. Any plastic frames that I have seen seem to have the same problem. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Is the burr comb problem with the plastic frames a spacing problem or > is it a material problem? This was what I was thinking. I never noticed that the frames sit any lower than wooden ones. Pierco frames aren't as wide (somethink I like about them) as wood, but again, I never noticed that the frames sit any lower. I didn't chime in because I wanted to check before I wrote and haven't had the time to do so. I ALWAYS have problems with burr comb on the top bar of Pierco frames - a main reason I do not use them. I have heard it said (but I have not tried) that a piece of masking tape on top of the frames will thwart the burr comb problem. If that is true, then it speaks to the material problem which Blane suggests. Personally I'll stick with wood. Aaron Morris - thinking SABA Seminar at UAlbany tomorrow. Walk ins welcome! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is the burr comb problem with the plastic frames a spacing problem or > is it a material problem? I have wondered if the plastic is similar > enough to the wax combs to the bees that they just "continue" the comb > so to speak resulting in the burring problems. Any plastic frames > that I have seen seem to have the same problem. Could be. Every material has its unique advantages and drawbacks. I noticed that Ross Rounds frames are always burred and laddered up. Frankly, I have not been bothered by the problems some describe, and we have about 10,000 black Piercos throughout our operation. Maybe I should say, "had", since it appears we have now sold down to about 400 hives. I could speculate that the reason we have no complaints could be our region, our bee stock, our method of operation, or perhaps -- I suspect -- our philosophy. I notice that some people regiment their bees and demand precision in everything. They regard the principle of bee space as a law, rather than a guideline that the bees tend to observe, but will break if they see fit. Those beekeepers are offended if the law is not observed 100% by their bees. They force their bees into clearly delineated spaces outlined by broad and well scraped wooden bars and remove instantly any ladder comb the bees may build to assist themselves in their travels. Some say that plastic has no place in a beehive; others of us find it quite acceptable and useful. I'm one of the latter group. I like plastic. It just happens that the topic of the day at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ is plastic pillows. Anyone who looks at he pictures on my site will see that I don't regard burr and ladder comb as something to be scraped off the moment it is discovered. After 30+ years, I have given up fighting and trying to impose rules on my bees, and I just enjoy them. Some time back, I posted on my site some evidence that Pierco foundation performs measurably better in our region than the competitors' products with larger cells. Dave wrote that he likes the sheets, due to the cell size, but not the frames. Others use nothing but the one-piece frames. What would I do if starting over? I think I'd seriously consider 100% Pierco black plastic frames in the broods and Pierco plastic mediums in the supers. I like standards, but I'm getting too old to lift the standards full of honey all day long. I should caution anyone thinking of using Pierco mediums as broods, that Pierco uses the larger cell size in the mediums. That makes sense for honey extraction, but the smaller cell size advantage that is built into the standards is not available in the mediums. As for the thinner top and bottom bars that have drawn such criticism, I find them a good feature, and any additional brace and burr comb that is built as a result to be an acceptable cost. Broad expanses of wood have no place in a honeycomb, and top and bottom bars are a serious impediment to queens and bees in cold regions. This wasted space, and the gaps beekeepers impose in the brood boxes, drastically affect the amount of brood that bees can cover in cool springs. Whatever some may think, the combination of smaller cells and reduced non-comb areas that Pierco offers permits more unrestricted brood rearing. These two factors result in the Pierco advantage we have demonstrated. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 12:01:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Pierco and Permacomb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have around half a dozen mediums and two deeps with Piercos and I have the same problem with burr comb. My experience has been that it makes no difference whether the supers with Piercos are adjacent to each other, or sandwiched between supers with wood frames. Race of bee seems to make no difference either. I have Russian, Buckfast, Weaver All American, Weaver Harbo (SMR), and Caucasian and they all build burr on the Piercos. As has been noted already by others I learned that the Pierco frames must be pushed together and centered as a group in the middle of the box rather than spaced uniformly. To do otherwise is a recipe for certain disaster. As for my wood frames I have a mixture of Kelley, Dadant/Western Bee, Root, and a bunch from places that you've never heard of in solid, grooved, and split bottom bars. I mix them freely (but not with Pierco in the same super) and have had no problems with burr even though I've noted that the bee space is anything but uniform between the tops and bottoms on some combinations. I think it has something to do with the plastic. My only problem with Piercos has been getting them drawn. I now know better than to put either new or freshly scraped ones on unless there's a strong flow. I'm still watching to see if anyone has something to say about Permacomb. I like to experiment and will likely try them eventually. If anyone has some and decided to take them out of use let me know. Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pierco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can assure the List that I have measured the thickness of the top bar (several times) and it truly is 1/8" thinner than the wood top bars sold by Betterbee, Kelley, and Dadant. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::