From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:26:19 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B250649053 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeG011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0303D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 72598 Lines: 1613 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:45:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm starting a bee hive in my back yard in Brooklyn, NY this April. I'd like to get in touch with someone who keeps bees in the area. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:42:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: Pierco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd wrote >....the thickness of the top bar.....truly is 1/8" thinner than the wood >top bars sold by Betterbee, Kelley, and Dadant. This had been bothering me since the beginning of this discussion. We use wide scrapers to cut burr comb off the top bars in the extracting plant and any great height variation would be a real pain. I went over to the hired man's and brought home a brand new Pierco one-piecer (we obviously need a few more warm days as I have to much time on my hands yet). Our equipment has Dadant, F.W. Jones, Mahurangi, Western Bee, Glorybee, a whole lot of others that are no longer around, as well as some home made frames. Here's what I found on the opposite side of the continent from Lloyd. All frames (including the Pierco) hung in the super to within a flea's hair of the same height of each other. Interestingly, the thickness of the top bar was quite different here than Lloyd's findings. The Pierco top bar is only 1/4" thick. Our wooden topbars ranged from 9/16" to 3/4" thick.; a full 1/2'' more in most cases. Width was virtually the same. Just for infromation Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Go to www.google.com and type in "beekeeping in NYC" . If you hunt down the hits, I,m sure you'll find some contacts. Don, Mohegan Lake, NY (formerly from Brooklyn!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" To: Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? > I'm starting a bee hive in my back yard in > Brooklyn, NY this April. I'd like to get in > touch with someone who keeps bees in the area. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: Re: Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi and Welcome! I'm a second year beekeeper in Fort Greene. I have three hives on my roof. It's great to know there are more of us. You should also contact Fred Duchac who has been keeping bees in Brooklyn longer than I.Fred Duchac Work: 201-280-6812 Home: 875-0990. I'm at 18 Fort Greene Place 718-858-6891. Definitely give me a "buzz"! ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul D. Law (aka Dennis) To: Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? > I'm starting a bee hive in my back yard in > Brooklyn, NY this April. I'd like to get in > touch with someone who keeps bees in the area. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:46:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Where can I buy a package Carniolan with a marked queen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where can I buy a package Carniolan with a marked queen? I plan to start keeping a hive of bees in my backyard in Brooklyn,NY in April and want to stock the hive with Carniolan bees. Because I am new to beekeeping, I want to get a package with a marked queen as this will make it easier for me to replace the queen every year. I plan to follow the advice I read on the Internet on "George's Pink Pages" which recommends replacing the queen every September. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Where can I buy a package Carniolan with a marked queen? Paul said: > Where can I buy a package Carniolan with a marked queen? > I plan to start keeping a hive of bees in my backyard in > Brooklyn,NY in April and want to stock the hive with Carniolan bees. Well, first off it is late March, and the package suppliers are likely booked up through May. As you are talking about "only one", you may be able to find a supplier who will bend over backwards for a new beekeeper. But in general, package orders are a "January" thing. Phone and e-mail around, and you might get lucky. A much better idea would be to find a local beekeeper willing to install a nucleus into your woodenware. I assume that you lack drawn comb. A split or nuc will have some number (3-4) frames of drawn comb, which is a big advantage for a new hive. It is NOT too late to find someone to sell you a nucleus. Your best bet is a local beekeeping club, but you can take your complete hive, have the beekeeper help you "install" the nuc in your gear, help you seal up the hive for transport, and transport a nuc for a few hours' drive with ease. See http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/who/who_2002.htm for what may be the most up-to-date list of clubs, but if all else fails, post your name and town here, and you may find a nearby kindred spirit. > I plan to follow the advice I read on the Internet on > "George's Pink Pages" >From your reference to George Imire (who I think of as "the Karl Marx of hobby beekeeping", but whom would likely rather prefer to be compared to Thomas Jefferson) I assume that you are looking for specific breed "New World Carniolans". No supplier of NWCs currently offers packages. If you want an "NWC package", you must order a queenless package, and order the NWC queen to arrive at or near the same date. > which recommends replacing the queen every September OK, so don't worry about what kind of bees until September. Get a nucleus, and replace the queen later. If you are just starting, you will be focusing on "basics" this first spring and summer anyway, and the breed of bees is a minor detail. If your goal is to use NWCs, re-queen this summer or fall with a NWC queen. Welcome to the club! jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Are there any Brooklyn Beekeepers??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Try contacting Ray Lackey. I know he is on Long Island, but will be of great help. Ray Lackey (2005) 1260 Walnut Avenue Bohemia, NY 11716-2176 631.567.1936 director.mb@easternapiculture.org :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:50:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: "Killer Bee" Movie Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this sort of off topic, however, I think it bears attention. The PAX Television network is going to air another movie about killer bees a.k.a AHB. The movie is scheduled to air on Friday, 3/28 at 8:00 PM EST. The movie is about a migratory beekeeper who transports a "swarm" of Killer bees to a "sleepy northwestern town" but the bees go on a killing rampage against the locals. With all of the issues beekeepers are dealing with right now, the last thing migratory beekeepers or any beekeeper for that matter, needs is this kind of "publicity" true or not, especially with the migration at the starting line. I would suggest an e-mail barrage to the PAX Television network denouncing their choice of programming in this instance. Ironically, I like the network. Their programming is family oriented. I don't know what happened with this one. Their website is www.paxtv.com and their is a "contact us" on the header. I doubt they will pull the program, but perhaps they will give us beekeepers equal time in the future!!! Coleene Davidson Central Lower Michigan Thank God it's Spring :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive Quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Please folks, DO NOT quote the post to which you are responding! Well over half the submissions over this past weekend have been discarded because the included all of a previous article . At the end of each post to BEE-L is a reminder: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info -- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The first rule for submissions to BEE-L: 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: "Killer Bee" Movie MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nice pickup! What say we suggest Mr Fonda's Movie, "Ullie's Gold" instead!! ; ) With swarming season coming up "killer bees" is not a smart choice... Don :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:57:24 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: "Killer Bee" Movie Coleene Davidson said: > The PAX Television network is going to air another movie about killer > bees a.k.a AHB. The movie is scheduled to air on Friday, 3/28 at 8:00 PM EST. A pox on PAX! :) PAX is a very strange little "network". I own a significant chunk of a few small-town cable-TV systems, so I know them better than I'd like. The good news is that their viewer share is lower than the test pattern. Very few people will see the movie. Fewer still will sit through the whole thing. Rather than wasting your time asking them to pull the movie, one may want to suggest that a disclaimer would be in order at each commercial break. Something like: "This is a work of fiction. Real bees, even Africanized Bees are not this smart or dangerous. Your children have nothing to fear from a bee." A typical "broadcast day" for PAX consists of infomercials 21 hours a day, and 5 hours of programs someone with no other choices might want to watch. These "programs" are re-runs of cancelled shows and a few independent productions that even the "Warner Brothers" network rejected. PAX Stations are all low-power independents, but their skill is in manipulating the "must carry" FCC regulations, forcing cable systems to carry their signal far beyond the area where one might be able to receive their signal. In short, they create "viewer demand" through fraudulent and artificial "grass-roots" campaigns. But there's no grass and no roots, it is 100% "Astro-Turf". The additional "viewers" they can thus claim allow them to charge slightly more for infomercials, which seem to be their primary revenue source. The cable systems with which I am involved all resisted the efforts of various PAX affiliates for a while, but as each system was converted to full digital (200+ channels), PAX was added to the channel lineup simply because "it was there". Want good family programming? Turn on PBS, and explain to your kids anything they don't understand. jim (Who turned on CNN this week, and found that "the revolution WILL be televised") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:59:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Hardie Subject: mites? In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1017FD3@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going through the yards in northern Vermont today for the first time in the season I noticed that often the groups of four colonies were either all alive or dead. Could this be related to mites? Todd Todd D. Hardie Honey Gardens Apiaries Hinesburg, Vermont :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:24:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: Re: Returned due to excessive quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I agree with James Campbell.. The nearest bee club I know of is the Long > > Island Beekeeping Club http://www.tianca.com/tianca3.html which meets > > out > > in Holtsville.Of course, a car is necessary. I'm a member. If you do > > have a > > car it mightb be worth checking them out. The president of the club is > > is > > Ray Lackey. phone: (631)567-1936 You could get a nuc there probably, > > tho' I > > don't know if they have carniolans. > > Good luck > > John Howe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:20:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Mar 2003 to 23 Mar 2003 (#2003-83) In-Reply-To: <200303240500.h2O4mm5d014760@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 3/23/03 23:00, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: > Coleene Davidson wrote: > I would suggest an e-mail barrage to the PAX Television network denouncing > their choice of programming in this instance. In reference to this killer bee response I would suggest writing the network and requesting that they preceed half hour segments of the program with disclaimers stating that this is fantasy and that regular beekeeping operations do not encite this kind of situation. Mike Stoops in south central Alabama Bees are swarming and superceeding here now. Saw some capped queen cells in the one hive I inspected already. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: "Killer Bee" Movie I would agree that this "Killer Bee" movie is a bad thing and certainly the timing is not the best. It is also apparent from the posts of this list that freedom of speech works both ways. "PAX is a very strange little "network". I own a significant chunk of a few small-town cable-TV systems, so I know them better than I'd like." While I dont have the experience with cable networks that Jim apparently has, I will say that PAX has some excellent programming and manages to support itself. If this were not so, it wouldnt be on the air currently. I do recommend that everyone takes the time to educate "PAX" about killer bees. It will make a difference and perhaps in the future they will think twice before airing such programming. It seems a shame that some people use this forum to attack those things that they have personal agendas with. Surely as civil as we are the posts can remain on topic without gouging those things we dont like. I doubt PBS would stay on the air if it had to support itself by conventional means. "A typical "broadcast day" for PAX consists of infomercials 21 hours a day, and 5 hours of programs..." (Still trying to figure out how to get 26 hours in a day) Kurt Bower :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:51:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "Killer Bee" Movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are at least two or three Killer Bee movies making the rounds. I cannot see making a big deal over this one, which I believe has been shown on other cable channels (hard to tell them apart, they are so bad). To attack this showing of the movie makes no sense and only helps promote it- like "banned in Boston" assured the success of a bad movie. I can see the hype now- "Watch the movie that beekeepers tried to ban". It would hurt beekeepers more than the movie. "What do they have to hide. Why are they trying to kill this great, based on fact movie?" Just let the poor thing die. Few watch them anyway. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine (home of the Killer Lobsters. Steven King is working on the movie) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:50:53 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: "Killer Bee" Movie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, I agree with Bill, It's just Hollywood, nothing to get to excited about. If I got the channel I would not mind seeing the movie so I could have a laugh. Really they are not the only ones to get it wrong about AHB's, If we're to bash a TV cable channel, we would have to treat all the institutes (including the USDA) the same that have it wrong with fair and equal treatment. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Black Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:56:23 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Primorski bee picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All A friend of mine is putting a lecture together on the outward morphometric differences of various strains/races of bees. (I have a personal interest in this direction as well). I am trying to source a high definition picture, fairly large size (dorsal view if possible) of a Primorski Bee. Can any BEE-L people help or point me in the right direction? As a secondary objective I would like to find a similar picture of a caucasian bee. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: "Killer Bee" Movie Bill Truesdell said: > To attack this showing of the movie makes no sense and only helps > promote it- like "banned in Boston" assured the success of a bad movie. Keith Malone said > I agree with Bill, It's just Hollywood, nothing to get to excited about. Beekeepers as a whole have proven that they are 100% clue-free about public relations, image management, and related issues. Movies have a way of molding public "knowledge" and opinion about nearly everything. Sadly, the general public is simply not taught to think clearly, and (at least in the US) poorly educated about "science". I am participating in a long-term project of a large number of members of the National Academy of Sciences to create a science text for secondary schools titled "Everything You Know Is A Lie". The title is very appropriate, since pop culture has become the only "common knowledge" shared in modern society. As an example, I challenge everyone reading this to send me a brief e-mail explaining why we have one moon, but two high tides per day. (As a hint, I should point out that EVERY science textbook currently published and EVERY web page that Google finds gets it very wrong, something I ranted about a while ago in a boring physics journal read only by physicists. The sad thing is that the "correct answer" has not changed one bit since Isaac Newton.) If I get an answer that refers even obliquely to the key critical factor, I will not only announce it here, but also send the winner a small prize - (I was cleaning the storeroom, and found several sets of mint-condition unassembled deep frames. We don't use deeps anymore.) "How we got here" is due solely to the complete lack of response to a multitude of tiny insults and misleading "factoids" about bees promulgated by the press and popular culture. "Where we are now" includes: 1) The restoration of funding for the USDA Bee Labs was labeled "pork" by more than one newspaper. Never mind that the USDA spends much more on research about things like grass for golf courses and lawns, "crops" with only visual value. 2) Honey price supports are also considered "pork". Strange that price supports for pork are somehow not considered "pork". 3) Most people can identify different types of hummingbirds and butterflies, but few can tell a bee from a wasp. People buy hummingbird feeders in great numbers and plant enough butterfly gardens to create multi-million dollar markets for seeds and plants, but somehow, bees lack the public relations machine behind butterflies and hummingbirds. 4) The number of people who think that a bee away from the hive is flying around looking for someone to sting constantly amazes me. Even the owner of a health food store chain that buys honey and pollen from me asked me about this last week! (Time to do the old demo with a drop of honey in the palm of my hand to show that foraging bees are, ummm, FORAGING...) 5) Even most beekeepers and their organizations in the US can't be bothered to take an interest in protecting their livelihood from pests and diseases by supporting the stance of the scientists at the USDA ARS, who strongly objected to the imports of queens and packages into the USA without port-of-entry inspection. Many beekeepers appear to think that pests and diseases will "get here anyway", or something else equally mythological. In short, beekeeping is bleeding to death from millions of "paper cuts". Yes, any one cut is not worth bothering about, but the total can be fatal. What happens after what comes next is a growing trend toward the recently-mentioned "Aurora, Colorado" situation, where otherwise rational people consider "banning" beekeeping. I went to the trouble to send a note to one of the Aurora councilmen, suggesting that the council required subject-matter expertise in the form of a degreed entomologist or agricultural extension representative to review the claims made by the anti-bee faction, and separate fact from fiction. His response to me was: "I'm afraid that the "government knows best" attitude may prevail here..." And THIS is a perfect example of why "preemptive public relations" is so critical. People who don't know ANYTHING about bees can and will make decisions that affect beekeeping in very basic ways. Even if appeals to reason and rational thinking are made, these appeals may be ignored by a group that "thinks they know better". What they "think" consists mostly of myths and half-truths gleaned from popular culture. The result is that myth is given equal weight with fact in Aurora Colorado, and in many other places. There lies the collapse of Civilization. When epistemology bumps into entomology, even many beekeepers "don't know what they know or how they know it", and are operating on misinformation. The archives of this list alone can easily yield many examples of "information" that is not only wrong, but actually harmful to bees if implemented. (Which is why some of the messages in the "Bee-L archives" need to be moved over to a stand-alone archive of "UNinformed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology". Sort of a "beekeeping blooper reel".) And yeah, the internet has made the problem worse, rather than better. The great thing about the internet is that the number of web pages continues to grow exponentially. The horrible thing about the internet is that the number of web pages continues to grow exponentially. While the number web pages grows exponentially, the body of verified fact grows very slowly. jim (curing fuzzy thinking since "45s" were music, not guns) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:36:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bryan Butler Subject: Keeping Bees in Town MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends, I have been following the discussion on keeping bees in town. I live in = Alberta and my Town By-law Officer told me that the Beekeepers in = Alberta have legislation that forbids keeping bees in towns. Are there = any Alberta beekeepers who can clarify that for me? I want to start my = bees in my garage and then move them when they get established for a = couple weeks. =20 Thanks, Bryan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Primorski bee picture Well, I'll use Dave's request for a picture of Caucasian bees to ask the list to ID these. They are black, very gentle slightly smallish and came in as a swarm from (I assume) a migratory beekeeper on the way to the almonds. Are they Carniolans, Caucasians, or just a mix? http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/blackbees.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:07:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Primorski bee picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/26/2003 10:15:41 AM Central Standard Time, tvaughan@CHARTER.NET writes: > http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/blackbees.html I don't think they are Caucasians. They are too dark. I think Caucasians are grayer than those in the picture. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:53:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: Bayvarol and drone fertility Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All During a lecture on all varroa treatments recently, where I set out the advantages and disadvantages of the various treatments, my attention was drawn to the possibility that I left out a major disadvantage of Bayvarol. The disadvantage claimed was that Bayvarol damages drone fertility. The speaker said that this comment had been made to him by at least one American beekeeper in Gormanston either last year or the year before. I had heard of this possibility before, but I did not have sufficient data on it to claim it at a lecture. Any comments please? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:59:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Primorski bee picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & all > http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/blackbees.html I'll stick my neck out and say mainly carniolan for the bees in Tim's pictures. Thanks for the replies on my original picture problem. I have the Primorski scheduled, but I am still stuck for a large picture of a caucasian worker. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:22:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Brookes Subject: Freezing sections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Been looking through the archives re: freezing sections/comb. How long is indefinately? Is it like stopping time or will they crystalize quicker when brought out? David Perthshire Scotland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:20:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Freezing sections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How long is indefinately? Is it like stopping time or will they > crystalize quicker when brought out? It is like stopping time, plus they will last longer before granulation, after coming out of freezing, than they would have if not frozen! As always, YMMV. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ patties, run-off, hoodoos, selling bees, DJIA, pillows... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: freezing sections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, from Scotland, asks about freezing sections. I have held sections in the freezer for two years, thawed them, and could not tell they were frozen. While comb exposed to light will darken, it does not change color in the darkness of the freezer. It does not granulate 'fast', when removed from the freezer. I guess I have held it 6-8 months in a warm room after being frozen and it has not granulated. However, condensation will form if it is not protected from warm air while it is thawing. Just today I removed six 'show quality' sections from the freezer and asked a co-worker to keep the sections in a box until tomorrow, when they would have thawed. Instead, they got removed this afternoon, condensation formed to an extent that the labels were ruined...and the sections are show quality no longer! Hope this helps. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:35:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Shortened Apistan treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello everybody. I recently read about a beekeeper who had made up his own three year cyclic varroa treatment method: In addition to removing drone brood in the spring, he alternates with formic acid one year, lactic acid the next year and a one week treament with Apistan strips in the fall the third year. The one week Apistan treatment worries me. The instructions on the package clearly advice 6-8 weeks of treatment after honey harvest in the fall. One would assume that first of all, the one week treatment is not efficient enough. But isn't it also right to assume this is the kind of conduct that gives us fluvalinate resistant varroa mites? I have no clue why he treats only one week, Maybe he thinks the strips are expensive and now gets treatment for six colonies for the price of one. Maybe he wants to expose his bees to fluvalinate as little as possible. The problem is that he's probably an authority in his region and now there's an article written about this in the beekeepers magazine over here. Anything written in that magazine tends to be looked upon as the truth. Can someone please comment on this. Should we be concerned? Can you give me som verbal ammo and facts to try to correct this? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:10:34 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE Subject: Re: Primorski bee picture In-Reply-To: <000601c2f37e$2459f7e0$06a82e50@davecush> > A friend of mine is putting a lecture together on the outward > morphometric differences of various strains/races of bees. (I have > a personal interest in this direction as well).I am trying to > source a high definition picture, fairly large size (dorsal view if > possible) of a Primorski Bee. Can any BEE-L people help or point > me in the right direction? The bee we call "primorsk " is something the Russians call "Far East bee". It is a natural hybrid from the cross-breed by the bees that were imported to the area. Most of the imported bees were of the Ukrainian bee (Apis millefera acervorum). Smaller amount was the Central Russian bee (A. m. mellifera) and even smaller amount was Caucasian ( both grey and yellow A. m. caucausica and A. m. remipes). Marginally there was also an import of A. m. ligustica (even from Australia). The Russians call them "primitive bees". They are a very heterogeneous. It is not a unified and stabilised bee. They look like the Central Russian bee but they often have a yellow ribbon on two, three first tergits. They cap the honey cells both white (dry) and dark (wet). The Russians write that these bees have a large potential and should be used for selecting productive bees of high quality. There are thoughts to give these bees an official status but at the moment they are described as "Primitive bees". Olda Vancata :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:42:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Keeping Bees in Town MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: You should contact the Alberta Provincial Apiarist, Dr. Medhat Nasr Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Main Floor, Administration Building (CDC North) RR6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB T5B 4K3 Phone (780)415-2314 Fax (780)422-6096 Email medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 06:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Shortened Apistan treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I recently read about a beekeeper who had made up his own > three year cyclic varroa treatment method: In addition to > removing drone brood in the spring, he alternates with formic > acid one year, lactic acid the next year and a one week > treament with Apistan strips in the fall the third year. Perhaps the combination of the drone trapping and other 3 methods (formic in year 1, lactic acid in year 2, and 1 week of Apistan in year 3) will keep this beekeeper's V.d. at bay in his part of the world. However, the concerns you have about the shortened Apistan treatment in year 3 may be valid. A 1-week treatment period will only get the phoretic mites. V.d. spends the majority of its life cycle in capped cells. Cells are capped for 15 days (workers), drones are capped for 18 days. Obviously a 10-day treatment will miss a lot of mites, assuming there are a lot of mites to be missed in the first place. That is one flaw in this man's treatment strategy; no testing to determine mite levels. Second problem: 10 days misses the developing mites in capped cells. This may be a lesser concern in the fall as the number of capped cells is dropping, but it is still a concern. Developing fluvalinate resistance is probably of little concern in this method. Fluvalinate exposure is only 1 year in 3. Resistance is fostered by a regular exposure. It is unclear in your post if the beekeeper is reusing the strips (is his figuring that assuming the label stays 6 to 8 weeks, since he is only using the strip for one week he can use the same stip 5 to 8 times?) Or is he using one strip one time? Exposure to low/sub-lethal doses may become more of a concern if he uses that same strip 6 to 8 times, if/when he uses the same strip on the forth, fifth, sixth ... time. And that number is a guess. All in all, the resistance issue should be of minimal concern, I'd be more concerned about the numbers of mites that may be hiding out in capped cells. And again, depending on the time in the fall (early fall, late fall, how much capped brood is left in the hive?), the mites that may be hiding in capped cells may be of minimal concern. When I first read your description of the treatment routine I thought, "Bad idea". But as I think this through I think it is not nearly as bad an idea as others I've heard. I think the weakest link in the strategt is it contains no evaluations of mite loads in the first place. Perhaps the 3rd year Apistan treatment is not needed, who can tell id no one looks? > and now there's an article written about this in the beekeepers > magazine over here. Anything written in that magazine tends > to be looked upon as the truth. Kind of like BEE-L, eh? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:37:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: One week Apsitan treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 'One week Apistan treatment' Surely queries on use of Apistan should really be answered by the = manufacturers? However, my tuppence worth in the meantime... Apistan seems very effective when applied to the phoretic mites in a = colony without sealed brood - all mites seem to drop well within a week. = The reason for leaving the strips in for 6 weeks is to catch the mites = protected in brood cells when they emerge, and as some will dive back = into another cell before receiving a lethal dose, the dose has to be = still there to catch them second or third time around. The strips have = ample 'active ingredient' - they become less effective in time because = the bees slowly varnish then over (like every other surface in the = hive), not because they become exhausted.=20 I use the Dartington Long Deep hive which is designed to avoid swarming = through separating the queen and swarm bees from the old brood nest = (horizontal Demareeing) just by moving individual brood frames at the = same level (so avoiding lifting heavy boxes) and putting in a vertical = divider. The 'swarm' has no sealed brood so Apistan kills all mites at = that end, usually within a few days - 3 weeks after division all the old = brood has emerged in the 'parent' and the new queen is only just coming = into lay, so the strips are moved to the rear compartment until dead = mites stop dropping through the permanent mesh floor.=20 So, one week exposure to Apitan in the fall will kill mites effectively = if delayed until ALL sealed brood has emerged. However, the colony will = quite likely die in the spring. Why? Because, as we know from Prof Mark = Winston, it is not the mites that kill bees but the viruses that Varroa = vector. October/November treatment will mean that the winter bees are = full of virus and killing the mites then will not save the colony. My = (neglected) colonies typically die in spring when stressed by the start = of brood rearing. Varroa mites need to be controlled in mid-summer, = before the colony starts to rear the winter bees in say August. = Horizontal Demareeing creates the opportunity to hit phoretic mites with = fumes, powders, oils as alternatives to fluvalinate.=20 Varroa is now such a persistent problem that EVERY colony need to be in = a hive with a permanent mesh floor for monitoring mite drop. Infestation = levels vary widely and unpredictably due to robbing.=20 Robin Dartington.=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Recommended queen for Boston area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any suggestions and/or past experiences with a particular strain that is best suited for the New England area? I am interested in the Buckfast and All American strains but am open to any suggestions. regards, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:49:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Plastic foundation not drawn out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The discussion about one-piece plastic frames and foundation seems to have died down after identifying a problem with burr comb. In my little operation, I have not noticed any particular burr comb problems with Pierco's one-piece that I didn't have with any other wood frame. However, I have had a different "challenge" that I'd like to hear suggestions on. Maria touched upon it in her thread and her satisfaction with Pierco "once they are built." I also like the one-piece Pierco, but I have a problem getting my bees to draw out the comb. Once they draw it out, they're great! Getting the bees to draw them out is a challenge. I've tried my best to get plastic foundation drawn out. I respect the standard procedures of only introducing foundation during a flow. While this has worked with some of my colonies, the relative brevity of the honyflow limits how many frames can be drawn out. I've tried spraying with sugar syrup only to have it bead up and roll off the waxed coating. I have noticed how my mediums are nicely accepted, but the brood frames less accepted. Thanks, Allen, I'll take some measurements and see if the mediums are the cells are larger! It has been suggested that I "weave" the plastic foundation between two frames of brood. I'll try it this year. This past year I tried old Permadent sheets bound in a wood frame from an older gentlemen who retired from keeping bees. I had pretty good success, but then our honeyflow ends. I tried forcing a couple of colonies to nothing but plastic foundation and the bees balk and build bridge comb. This year I've ordered some more Permadent, Pierco, Plasticell and Rite-Cell, as well as Dadant's new introdction of EZ-Frames (their one-piece). I'm going to try some side-by-side comparisons. I'm going to compare the one-piece against the wood-bound. Still, I'd like to hear from you all what tricks you use to get plastic foundation drawn out. All of this has further implications for the increased use of 4.9mm or small cell foundation to suppress mites. It's my understanding that 4.9mm foundation made of plastic is now being test marketed. Without taking "opinions" of whether smaller cells work or not, I'd like to know what people are doing to get the plastic foundation drawn out. Grant --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:12:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Swarmy Bees vote for Pierco Amidst the running debate about plastic frames and foundation, has anyone ever thought to ask the bees? While I was making nucs yesterday, they spoke with one accord. Here is their commentary! http://www.pollinator.com/nucs/nuc_swarm.htm Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:39:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Plastic foundation not drawn out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spray with flavored syrup and feed heavy. OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html Subject: [BEE-L] Plastic foundation not drawn out > The discussion about one-piece plastic frames and foundation seems to have died down after identifying a problem with burr comb. In my little operation, I have not noticed any particular burr comb problems with Pierco's one-piece that I didn't have with any other wood frame. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Plastic foundation not drawn out Grant said: > I've tried spraying with sugar syrup only to > have it bead up and roll off the waxed coating. I can offer a suggestion on this point. Try a sprayer with a "fine" mist. If you want to use a fingertip pump sprayer, avoid sprayers from "industrial" and "cleaning" products, and find one for a "cosmetic" product. I have tested lots of different fingertip pump sprayers in selecting one to be included with bottles of Bee-Quick. (We will "upgrade" all dealer stock within the next two months, so all bottles sold from June 2003 on will have sprayers.) With a fine mist (and not too much spraying) the droplets should be able to stay put on the foundation. The "fine mist" sprayers will but out MUCH less than 1 cc per pump. The "regular mist" sprayers will put out at least 1 cc per pump. But if foundation has to be "baited" to get the bees to give it any attention at all, perhaps the problem is that the bees simply do not feel that they have a comb "shortage", in that they have sufficient empty comb to support their operations. > the relative brevity of the honeyflow limits > how many frames can be drawn out. Then feed the bees! I slap feeders on my colonies in July and August when there is not much else going on here in Virginia with the sole purpose of getting them to draw comb. Since I remove honey supers before doing this, the feed (sugar, HFCS, whatever) does not get into the harvestable crop, but is instead part of their overwintering stores. The removal of all supers, combined with the feeding, usually creates a "sense of urgency" about drawing comb. Of course, now that the 6-year-long drought conditions have eased, I may modify this approach, as less dry conditions may allow me to get a "fall crop". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Plastic foundation not drawn out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed We've experimented that undrawn Pierco in the brood chamber(s)even during a flow will not be builded. Anyone to confirm this? Vital >From: Grant Gillard >Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: [BEE-L] Plastic foundation not drawn out >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:49:21 -0800 > >The discussion about one-piece plastic frames and foundation seems to have >died down after identifying a problem with burr comb. In my little >operation, I have not noticed any particular burr comb problems with >Pierco's one-piece that I didn't have with any other wood frame. > >However, I have had a different "challenge" that I'd like to hear >suggestions on. > >Maria touched upon it in her thread and her satisfaction with Pierco "once >they are built." I also like the one-piece Pierco, but I have a problem >getting my bees to draw out the comb. Once they draw it out, they're >great! Getting the bees to draw them out is a challenge. > >I've tried my best to get plastic foundation drawn out. I respect the >standard procedures of only introducing foundation during a flow. While >this has worked with some of my colonies, the relative brevity of the >honyflow limits how many frames can be drawn out. > >I've tried spraying with sugar syrup only to have it bead up and roll off >the waxed coating. I have noticed how my mediums are nicely accepted, but >the brood frames less accepted. Thanks, Allen, I'll take some measurements >and see if the mediums are the cells are larger! > >It has been suggested that I "weave" the plastic foundation between two >frames of brood. I'll try it this year. > >This past year I tried old Permadent sheets bound in a wood frame from an >older gentlemen who retired from keeping bees. I had pretty good success, >but then our honeyflow ends. I tried forcing a couple of colonies to >nothing but plastic foundation and the bees balk and build bridge comb. > >This year I've ordered some more Permadent, Pierco, Plasticell and >Rite-Cell, as well as Dadant's new introdction of EZ-Frames (their >one-piece). I'm going to try some side-by-side comparisons. I'm going to >compare the one-piece against the wood-bound. Still, I'd like to hear from >you all what tricks you use to get plastic foundation drawn out. > >All of this has further implications for the increased use of 4.9mm or >small cell foundation to suppress mites. It's my understanding that 4.9mm >foundation made of plastic is now being test marketed. Without taking >"opinions" of whether smaller cells work or not, I'd like to know what >people are doing to get the plastic foundation drawn out. > >Grant > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: _________________________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Swarmy Bees vote for Pierco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, Funny you mention about swarm already. About a week and half ago, I found a swarm that had moved into one of my empty hives that I always set up on a stand in my apiary. But it was in the middle of March: I have never seen a swarm this early in Oklahoma, for we are now just barely starting a light flow! Funnier still was the fact that I had split the same Carnies about a week before; however, they decided to swarm anyway, despite the plenty of expansion space [unlimited brood chamber in three deeps], and I found them in the bottom of the two deeps I had set aside, which had unused honey from a deadout over this winter. To protect these supers from mice/moth, I had placed on the entrance broken blocks of trash lumber, which allowed a small entrance. I was going to use these leftovers to help out any weak colonies, but failed to find any. The swarm, I am certain, came out of the strongest colonies in that apiary; I could tell by looking at the bees flying in and out at the entrance as I always check and know which box puts out “the show of force” or “shock and awe” in the afternoon. I did not see the swarm fly, like you did; however, I stumbled into three-frames of robust bees in that box while trying to take those boxes home to store them for future swarm- captures. Dumb-founded was I when I heard a buzz as I opened up the bottom box. Luckily this swarm is early enough to produce. I love my Carnies and their TNT explosiveness. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:20:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic foundation not drawn out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Grant, Gosh, you are as LONG-WINDED as I am, so I hope I don't have to apologize. When one WIRED frames, put pins in the end bars, and then "heated" the foundation into place each years for 50-100 colonies for over 40 years, I was SO HAPPY when Dadant introduced PLASTICELL about 20-25 years ago that I "jumped in with both feet". Now, over 20 years later, I am sorry that it was not available when I started beekeeping 71 years ago in June 1932. Greatest improvement in beekeeping that I have seen. Now, due to 5 strokes, I only have 20 colonies, but every colony has ALL frames made with PLASTICELL, and most colonies are 8 stories tall, 80 frames, by April 15th. I haven't used any deeps for over 20 years, NOT because of age or a bad back, but I just wanted ONE SIZE FRAME that could be used in the brood area or the super area; and hence my brood chambers are 3 medium hive bodies the year around. I have been privileged to teach, give talks, make demonstrations ALL FREE OF CHARGE over most of the U.S. and some foreign countries until the strokes disabled my walking and talking. However, while I was giving these talks and teaching, I was constantly dumbfounded by the vast number of beekeepers (beeHAVERS) that did not understand that bees MUST HAVE A NECTAR FLOW OR ARTIFICIAL NECTAR FLOW OF 1:1 SUGAR SYRUP to make them build comb! Honey bees do not do a job until it is necessary. They only need ciomb for two purposes: 1) for the queen to lay eggs in it, and 2) for the storage of food (nectar, honey, and pollen). Bee scientists have found that honey bees have to consume about 8 pounds of honey (NOT nectar) to produce and construct 1 pound of wax comb; and this fact alone prevents bees from just dashing off and building comb UNLESS THERE IS AN IMMEDIATE NEED. I have used other plastic foundation, and don't like it as much as Dadant's PLASTICELL; and I absolutely despise the complete plastic frame and refuse to use them. If I had to go back to using wax foundation, it was such a pain in the fanny, I might give up beekeeping. Going a bit further, why won't beekeepers spend 30¢ for a pound of sugar to feed bees to build comb, a big population of bees, and a highly improved chance that they will get through next winter in great shape rather than hope "nature will take are of the problem"? Nectar is SUCROSE and water. Sucrose is the chemical name for table sugar. SUGAR is by far the best food that one can give bees, because it never causes dysentery, Nosema, or some other "upset stomach". In Maryland, where my apiary is, our ONLY nectar flow is April 15th to as late as June 15th, and nothing else the other 10 months. I encourage all my MANY students to start a colony by April 15th on ALL foundation and CONTINUOUSLY feed that colony 1:1 sugar syrup until Labor Day in September. By doing this, they feed about 50 pounds of sugar, $15.00, and the bees often produce 40-60 drawn combs from PLASTICELL foundation, and those colonies are real powerhouses the following spring in honey production, many producing over 100 pounds/colonyin a state whose average is only 29 pounds. I have written a lot of words here just to say: FEED THOSE NEW BEES CONSTANTLY, even when the nectar flow is on, if you want to get plastic foundation drawn, and feed them ALL summer to get your supers drawn into drawn comb and abundant winter stores. So you invest $15 or even $50 in sugar, but you have got lots of frames of drawn comb and abundant winter stores when November arrives, and READY FOR NEXT YEAR! One of my favorite sayings is: DRAWN COMB is every beekeeper's MOST VALUABLE POSSESSION! I hope I have helped. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 71st year of beekeeping in Maryland near the WHITE HOUSE Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Founder and still President, 19 years, of Maryland largest local bee Association with 185 paid members that meets 11 month of the year, and has 10 Master Beekeeper members of the total of only 133 that have been certified in the past 25 years, and I am PROUD of them! Author of George's month;y PINK PAGES @ www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html Author of American Beekeeping Federation Newsletter Hobbyist Tips :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::