From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:27:08 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC9B4905A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeM011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0304B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 261952 Lines: 5805 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fructose or sucrose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris said: I think Bob must mean sucrose rather than fructrose. In the U.S. about 90% of the bee feed fed by commercial beekeepers is fructose. The same product as Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola use in soft drinks. We wait until a certain date in the fall and a certain date in the spring when the tanker price drops. For some reason the price of both gasoline and fructose are higher in California. We hauled scrap granulated sugar into California by semi and liquefied ourselves last fall to save on feed costs. Fructose comes in two percents. 42% and 55%. I believe the 55% is worth the extra money but do cut the 55% with water at times in the spring. Fructose was the product both packers were using when caught cutting pure honey by the FDA. Last two day fructose story: I spent the day today hauling home 55 gallon drums of 55% fructose from a semi wreck south of KC around Butler Missouri. The driver had simply ran the drums into the semi on skids without blocking of any kind. Very dumb and the wreck destroyed both his truck, trailer and put him in the hospital. NEVER MOVE 55 gallon DRUMS LOOSE ON A PALLET. Always put on the floor of the truck/trailer and block with blocks or 2x4's. My partner bid on the whole semi load for us site unseen. Looked like a great deal until my partner and a helper arrived at the salvage place yesterday and found the drums were still in the totaled trailer sitting in about an inch of fructose. Most of the drums were full but badly dented so will only be good for burn barrels. Mother nature rained on the whole project. Each drum had to be dragged to the back of the truck with a chain. I was at a birthday party for me given by my children so I missed all the fun. Buying the freight damaged load of 55% fructose will be a money saver but quite a bit of extra work was involved Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:51:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: How much feeding to draw comb? Rain again today in Virginia, so I can only write about keeping bees. (Writing about beekeeping is like dancing about sculpture...) Chris Slade mused: > In the case of established colonies (now swarms) > why should one feed at all to get comb drawn? Because he wants a harvestable honey crop. This year. Not next year. New beekeepers want some HONEY to show for their efforts the first year they keep bees. This is not easy when starting from packages or nucs in areas where the nectar is mostly from "spring blooms". To optimize the harvest (or to have any harvest at all with a new colony in the first year), one wants to get the comb drawn before the nectar flow, and get the queen laying at full speed, or one looses the harvestable results of the flow while a smaller number of bees merely draw foundation for the entire period of the bloom. Which would you rather have available to the bees when the spring blooms start to produce nectar, drawn comb or foundation? > If there is nectar coming in then bees at around 10 days old will > be producing wax anyway which they can either build into comb or > allow to fall to the hive floor and be wasted. But the difference is timing. The more drawn comb one can slap on a hive (or draw) before the bloom, the larger the harvest that results. This is a well-researched issue, not a matter of opinion, and it makes sense. With more comb surface area, more nectar can be evaporated down into honey more quickly. With more brood comb available early, the queen has space to lay more eggs, which means a larger number of comb drawing, and later, foraging bees. > If there is no nectar coming in there is no need for comb to be drawn. Sure there is! Do you want the population to be limited by the subset of a "nuc" (3 or 4 frames) where then queen will lay? Of course not. You want a fully drawn full-width brood area well in advance of the first bloom. Timing is everything!! If the temperature is warm enough, and feed is supplied, you can get ahead of the game in both comb drawing and brood rearing. Heck, I started feeding in February, just to get a jump-start on brood rearing. Carrying feed to hives through the snow is part of my normal yearly plan. The original question came from a very astute "beginner" with two nucs who said he wants to: a) Get a deep brood chamber comb drawn out, so that the queen can have some room to lay beyond the limits of the nuc frames. b) Add a second deep brood chamber and draw it out. c) Add a medium "honey super", and draw it out, so it will be ready for some sort of harvest at some point. If he does not feed the colony now, no serious comb building will take place until the first significant bloom. Since he is in NE Ohio, April's blooms would be Maple, Elm, and Birch trees. Not very exciting. May/June in NE Ohio would have more blooms and better blooms (Clovers, Black Locusts, Honeysuckle, Tulip Poplar...) so the game plan would be to do his best to at least get a single full deep drawn in April, and get the population up for late May/early June. A very tight schedule this late in the game. My view is that without lots of feeding now (and some luck) he will get, at most, a goldenrod crop in August, given that he is starting with nucs, no drawn comb, and has been told that he must draw out two deeps. (What sadistic joker convinced him to draw out two deeps in spring?) I'd submit that he stands a better chance of getting a harvest this year by drawing one deep now, then adding the honey super, and adding the 2nd deep to draw (by feeding) in late July or early August after the major nectar flows are over, and after he has taken his medium (crop) off. This may force him to feed through July and August to draw the 2nd deep and give the bees sufficient winter stores, but the bees will not complain. > A commercial beekeeper... I doubt whether he will be a better economist > than the bees who have spent millions of years learning to get the balance > right or die. An amateur beekeeper can afford to relax and enjoy the bees > doing their own thing as the season progresses and minimize unnecessary > interference. The bees' agenda for the last few million years did NOT include having someone remove a significant fraction of their stores. Yes, the amateur beekeeper can simply let the bees build comb as blooms happen, build up a population, and perhaps even build up some stores for winter, but will this result in a solid two deeps by winter? Doubtful. Will this result in a harvestable crop this year? Almost certainly not. He likely would get the drawn comb, see a population peak in August during a nectar dearth which would eat into stores, and end up having to feed in fall anyway. This fellow (like ALL new beekeepers) wants to proudly present a few friends with some honey >>>THIS<<< year. It need not be much, a single medium of extracted honey or a single super of Ross Rounds would be enough. But here's what happens with quite a few new beekeepers: 1) He buys stuff (somewhere around $200 - $300) 2) He get some bees (around $40 - $50 per colony) 3) He follows the suggestions he finds on the internet (Lord protect him!), or in one of the basic "how to keep bees" books. 4) But he does not get a crop in the first year unless he pushes the bees as early as possible, or jump-starts the bees with some drawn comb from an experienced beekeeper (or group) who takes him under their wing. 5) Now he has to winter his bees, which is a dice roll for any small number of colonies. He could loose them all, even if he did everything "by the book". 6a) A year has gone by, and if his colonies died, he must buy new nucs or packages, and feels that he is "starting over". Not even a single 8oz bottle of honey has appeared on the table from his hive, he has spent much time and money, and all he has to show for his efforts is an stack of boxes, some stings, and a number of funny, but slightly embarrassing stories about "what the bees did", or "what he did". When he tells non-beekeepers these stories, their eyes glaze over for a bit, and then they respond by asking "So you must have a ton of honey, right? Can I taste some?" 6b) With luck, his colonies survive winter, but the "satisfaction" of merely keeping colonies alive does not compare to the satisfaction of getting a crop, even a small crop. (If he wanted to simply keep something alive, a goldfish might be a better choice!) He starts to wonder if he will EVER get any honey to put in the case of mason jars that remains unopened in the pantry. No wonder so many people "give up" after a year or two! When people plant a garden, they are sure to get some sort of crop that fall. No one understands that a crop of honey is difficult to get in the first year from a package or nuc unless one's hives are placed in a large field of clover or canola, and one is blessed with good weather. I'd bet that if someone surveyed beekeepers and ex-beekeepers, one would find that losing colonies does not prompt a new beekeeper to "give up" as much as not getting a crop. The new beekeeper does not have to tell his friends that his bees died and had to be replaced, but a lack of honey is an obvious embarrassment that cannot be denied. Without honey, he feels that he has somehow "failed", and everyone will ask him "Did you get any honey yet? Can I buy/have/taste some?" Someone in Ohio needs to make up a gift pack for this fellow - frames of drawn comb. Someone needs to give (or sell) some drawn comb to EVERY new beekeeper, simply so they can enjoy the pleasure and pride of a harvest in the first year. Someone also needs to back each supplier of "beginner kits" into a corner, and get them to stop providing "deeps" to hobby beekeepers by default. Mediums would make the first year less problematic, and would prevent the age-old problem of bees that fill up the deep(s) and never put much in the honey supers above. Mediums make life much less complex for a new colony, since one can build the colony in smaller increments, and defer some comb building for the long hot days of late July and early August after a harvest. 100% mediums make every year easier for me. When all one's comb is the same size, one can deploy comb with the aplomb of a blackjack dealer, confident that you have the resources to cope with any/all scenarios. jim (who knows that "comb is where the heart is") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Apistan in Spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Occasionally I get questions from readers of my dairy that touch on topics that are debated here. I took a little time to work on this reply, and, since the question is a common one on this list, and, since I'm a painfully slow typist, I thought I'd maximize on the effort by sharing this one here, now. --- I have to ask you a question: reading your diary, I saw that you're treating with Apistan now. I assume spring in the same phase here in Sweden as in Alberta (dandelions about three weeks away). Over here, spring Apistan treatment is a definite no-no. I have asked our national bee disease expert about this and he claims it's strictly forbidden. Also, the instructions on Apistan packages here say treat 6-8 weeks in the fall AFTER honey harvest. Is spring Apistan treatment considered (or proved) safe or are your regulations less strict than ours? Apistan® instructions vary from one country to another. Our packaging specifies use " in the spring before the first honey flow and in the fall after the last honey flow". Also, "For best chemical distribution, use APISTAN STRIPS when daytime high temperatures are at least 10 degrees C." We understand that by "flow', the package means flows that are large enough to require supers. Otherwise, we would never be able to put strips in, because, around here, there is always a risk of a light flow during any 42 day period during seasons when it is not too cold to use them. We are having a very slow, cold, spring. We are still barely able to get to some hives. Daytime temperatures were in the minus teens last week. We would have liked to put on apistan several weeks ago, but the weather has been against us. For us, the dandelion flow is 5 weeks away. Silver willow 7. Nonetheless, we never make enough to store in supers or extract until mid-June or July, at the earliest . Spring flows in our area are used for build-up and splitting only. Alternative treatments (acids, drone brood removal and the small cells) are pushed hard around here, but winter losses to varroa have been huge this winter and more people are moving toward Apistan. I'm sure many would like to use it this spring to save whatever colonies they have left. I, frankly, have little use for such methods when a small Apistan treatment works so well. a.. Drone removal seems, to me, unnatural, invasive, and labour intensive. b.. Small cells, I do not understand, even though I had several articles published in Bee Culture about my visit to Lusbys'. Besides, all my comb is 5.2 and larger. c.. Acids (see here) are messy, slightly dangerous, slower, more labour intensive -- and more variable in their efficacy. Moreover, a recent post to sci.agriculture.beekeeping , by a regular contributor, complains about an almost total loss after oxalic fumigation. Apistan works well for us. Our fall mite drops (natural - 24 hour) were all less than one varroa per day, and our only treatment had been one strip in spring. We did have an extremely dry spring and summer, though and that may have the effect of reducing varroa. Nonetheless, I learned this spring 1-strip technique from a beekeeper with 12,000 hives who claims to never get over 300 mites with his fall 24 hour Apistan-assisted drop samples. As always, YMMV. Each region and each beekeeper is unique, and what works for one, may not work for another. Whatever method is chosen, the prudent beekeeper will follow up with careful observation, and tests to verify success. A smart beekeeper listens to everything, but reserves judgment until he or she has proven it in his or her own bee yard(s). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:05:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anonymous Ok Subject: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do open bottom boards really help in reducing the varrola problem? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:40:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: open bottom boards In-Reply-To: <185.191bd084.2bc42301@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of Anonymous Ok > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 2:05 PM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: [BEE-L] open bottom boards > > > do open bottom boards really help in reducing the varrola problem? > I cannot give a definite answer to this, however they certainly seem to improve overall hive health by giving much better ventilation, since changing to fully open mesh floors (no trays) last year, my colonies have been larger and given a much bigger surplus. I realise that this is only from one season, but from what I have seen I would not go back to solid floors. Ben. NB I am in the UK (south) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Transport Truck Blows Tire in Florida, Overturns, Driver Killed Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The Cramer beekeeping family name in Florida goes back for me to the days when I got my first hive of bees as a young teenager for me. I like the way *Doc* from the Florida beekeepers list told the Florida list of Conrads death. Doc said: "Conrad Cramer, past president, member in good standing and long time manager of the Florida State Beekeepers Assn. Apiary passed away today while doing what he loved best." Ps. A blown front tire on a bee truck is always a problem. I will post a few pointers for those which might not know the proper method of handling the problem. 1. Aways keep both hands on the wheel. 2. keep in the slow lane except to pass so another vehicle can not get between you and the shoulder if a tire blows. 3.stay off the brakes 4. Hold the wheel straight and slowly exit the road. 5.If the road has a shoulder drop off stay in the road lane until you are almost stopped before moving onto the shoulder. If there is no shoulder (as is the case many times in Missouri) stay on the road and set out flares or reflectors and call for help. 6. NEVER RUN A RECAP TIRE ON THE FRONT OF A BEE TRUCK! 7. Try to choose roads to travel with a shoulder. I have had two blow outs while driving at highway speeds with transport trucks. CNN is running the bee wreck story over and over today. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:48:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: fructose or sucrose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I think Bob must mean sucrose rather than fructrose. > In the U.S. about 90% of the bee feed fed by commercial beekeepers is > fructose. The same product as Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola use in soft > drinks. Bob is using the colloquial term for High Fructose Corn Syrup, which is a syrup that is primarily fructose and and dextrose and water. This is a clear, white producet and not to be confused with consumer corn syrup, some types of which are toxic to bees. Specs can be found for both 55 and 42 at http://www.wcommerce.com/conventional.htm allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:43:57 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: open bottom boards More rain in Virginia... chilly too. In the 40s. 60s and 70s predicted for the weekend, so today I type, and mess with wrenches and bicycles with hopes of doing this again soon: ......... __o ......... \< ..... (_)/(_).................... > do open bottom boards really help in reducing the varrola problem? I assume that you mean "screened bottom boards", since an truly "open bottom" would create a very large "entrance" to defend. In regard to screened bottoms, USDA studies say "yes". The original name for them was "Beltsville Screens", since the Beltsville Bee Lab developed the early prototype. But even if one does not feel that the "natural mite fall" makes a significant difference in the total mite population, a screened bottom allows one to monitor the natural mite fall, and track the (estimated) mite population, week by week. As I often intone to companies that ask me why they need servers to simply watch all their other servers: One cannot control that which one does not measure. Some people worry about the impact of screened bottoms on early spring brood rearing and comb drawing. Here's a trick - assuming that you have a screen board sitting on a backwards-facing solid bottom (which is how you slide in the sticky paper to be able to count mites), you put a groove that is slightly wider than 1/4-inch on the inner vertical surfaces of the solid bottom's sides (the part that the brood chamber sits upon) you can then slide in a 1/4 plywood sheet, and plug the very small opening that remains with a stick about the size of an entrance reducer. This blocks the "extra" airflow that so many fear may chill the bottom brood chamber, and prevent the queen from laying early. One can still place sticky paper on the plywood. Since we have problems with "damp" in Virginia, I cut some vent holes in the plywood sheets towards the back of the hive, to allow ventilation airflow to help remove the damp air from the hive, but keep the airflow at the rear of the hive. If you look at where your earliest eggs get laid, you may find what I found, which is that the queen starts laying close to the front wall of the brood chamber. Why? The front of your hive likely faces southward, and the sun heats up the front surface of the hive, even in winter. The small amount of "thermal mass" of the front of the hive body appears to make a difference. So if you wanted to enhance this effect, you might want to both slide in the plywood sheet and insert an entrance reducer with the smallest opening "open" just to keep cold air away from the front area of the hive. The modification looks like this (in rear view): +-----+ | | <=== One "side" of a solid bottom board | | | +--+ | | <=== New groove, wider than 1/4-inch | +--+ and perhaps 1/8" to 1/4" from top | | | | | | | | | | | +--+ | | | | <=== Groove for solid bottom | | | +--+ | | | | | | +-----+ A kludge for existing in-place hives would be a slide-in "platform" of sorts, like this: +-----+ | | | |+--------------- <=== 1/4" plywood | |+--------------- Nailed or screwed | | | | to spacer legs | | | | | | | | <==== Vertical spacer "legs" | | | | cut from scrap | | | | | | | | | | | | | +--+ +--+ | |+--------------------------- | || Solid Bottom | |+-------------------------- | +--+ | | | | <=== One "side" of a bottom board | | +-----+ jim (byte for byte, ASCII art is your best entertainmnet value) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: You may wish to go to the following site: http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf This is the final report on a study in Quebec Canada by Jean Pierre Chapleau. The report is titled: "Experimentation of Ant-Varroa Screened Bottom Board in the Context of Developing an Integrated Pest Management Strategy for Varroa Infested Honeybees in the Province of Quebec" Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: open bottom boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim and Everyone, Jim, who lives in Virginia USA in a somewhat milder climate than here in Minnesota USA, wrote in part: "Some people worry about the impact of screened bottoms on early spring brood rearing and comb drawing. Here's a trick - assuming that you have a screen board sitting on a backwards-facing solid bottom (which is how you slide in the sticky paper to be able to count mites), you put a groove that is slightly wider than 1/4-inch on the inner vertical surfaces of the solid bottom's sides (the part that the brood chamber sits upon) you can then slide in a 1/4 plywood sheet, and plug the very small opening that remains with a stick about the size of an entrance reducer." Why go to all that work? I have been running colonies with open mesh bottoms ( 8 mesh hardware cloth ) here in Minnesota for a few years now. The colonies are on stands open to the ground about 8 inches above the ground. The mesh bottoms are used year around with nothing under them but the ground. Colonies winter fine with them and seem to do fine in the spring and summer. Only one "problem" I have found - they will raise brood to the bottombars of the bottom deep and hand swarm cells from the bottombars of those frames so one has to check both brood chambers for swarm cells during swarm season. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: open bottom boards Keith Forsyth said: > You may wish to go to the following site... > "Experimentation of Anti-Varroa Screened Bottom Board..." Yes, many of us read M. Chapleau's paper. It contained many frank and honest statements. M. Chapleau is to be credited for his frankness, but one is forced to wonder why he published those results at all. Perhaps publishing something was a condition of the study funding. M. Chapleau's frank statements might be overlooked by a beekeeper, but are red flags to any professional research scientist, such as: "...this bottom board succeeded in reducing, on average, by 37% the varroa populations of the colonies during the season of 2001. The global results obtained however were not statistically significant except for certain sampled sub groups where the experiment conditions were more homogeneous." (pg 3) Plain English "Take No Prisoners" Translation: The results were garbage except in cases where "test" and "control" colonies were subjected to similar conditions. Of course one wants "homogeneous" experiment conditions! If you don't get them, you abort the experiment, and start over with a different, better methodology. Another problem with the study is that they only did mite counts in May and September, rather than more often, which would have provided more data points, and a better view of screen versus solid bottoms. With only two measurements months apart, one can mistake a broken clock for one that keeps perfect time! Another problem is that no tracking of colony population (in terms of frames of brood, perhaps) was done, which is a critical factor. Think about it - a bigger colony is a good thing, and a bigger colony will certainly have a larger mite count than a weak colony, even when the infestation rate is slightly lower in the bigger colony. This study would have judged the bigger colony as "more infested", and would have jumped to the conclusion that the screened bottom did not "help" a colony that was DOUBLE the strength of the other at the end of the season. Yet another problem was initial colony populations. "The first group (large group) was made up from 170 standard colonies of greatly varying strength..." (pg 6) Well, if colony populations are unequal, then one would have to question how brood areas could be equal, and how similar conditions for mite development could exist in terms of numbers of live bees and brood cells. How could one then go on to compare mite populations in these colonies of "greatly varying strength"? How could one even call these colonies "standard"? Exactly what was "standard"? The woodenware??? I could go on... they were uncertain if some specific colonies had been treated with the "spring miticide treatments" and excluded them from the results, but somehow did not question if the same error had been made with any other colonies. (pg 8) None of the observations and conclusions I make above require any specialized training or education. All one need do is read the complete paper. Slowly. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "C. B." Subject: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? Inside the "How much feeding to draw comb?" thread, a sub thread developed regarding the honey production habits of the backyard beekeeper. I would be very interested in tips on what a backyard beekeeper can do to get high quality honey that is the equal of that produced by commerical beekeepers. But maybe I need to take a step back, is it even possible for a backyard beekeeper to aspire to this level given the resources they are likely to possess? For example, is the testing that would be necessary, available and afforable to the backyard beekeeper? Who do you go to for such testing? If the commerical level isn't obtainable, it would be useful to know what a competent (i.e., follows the directions for medications, keeps honey comb clean, processes honey in an area that is as clean as one can get in a home setting etc.). backyard beekeeper should do that they aren't. Or just answer the bottomline question: Should I stop eating my own honey? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? Hey, Chris. You should say where you live. In our area, during the last summer's lack of rain, the back yard was the best place to be, because people water their landscape plants. Here's a section of comb my little girls made for me during the late summer when my bees in the "great outdoors" were just hungry. http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/combhoney.html I'm just a little guy, but my advise is to eat your own honey with a good consience. Best Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:02:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Or just answer the bottomline question: Should I stop eating my own honey? < Let me add a further question: If the honey I hope to produce in the bee hive I'm about to start in my backyard in Brooklyn should not be eaten, then how should it be disposed of? Can it be diluted and flushed to let the city sewage plant process it or should the hazmat team be called in to haul it away to some safe containment area? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:02:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: open bottom board & slatted rack in a new hive ???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I plan to raise a hive of Carniolan bees and am getting equipment together. I'm plan to install the package over a screened open bottom board. My other equipment includes 2 deeps w 10 frames of undrawn foundation 5 mediums w 50 frames of undrawn foundation 1 tank top feeder 1 boardman feeder (to provide water for the hive) My first year goals are: 1) Keep the bees alive until next spring. 2) Prevent the bees from swarming. 3) Have as much drawn frame as possible (grown one medium at a time). to help prevent swarming next year. 4) Try and harvest a little honey next year. Should I get a buy a slatted rack to place between the bottom board and the bottom hive body? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:24:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Backyard bee hives have a greater variety of bloom nectar that the commercial beekeeper can't even think about getting. While commercial beekeepers extract into 2500 gallon holding tanks which blend everything together the backyard beekeeper can do a two frames extraction. Putting honey into a 1/2 gallon container with a hand written label with the date and the bloom. Be sure to not heat the honey above 100 degrees so the pollen is not activated, label showing the care and the wax ring is showing the top quality. Blue honey should go for no less than $100.00 quart. That is if you wanted to sell it. Sealing your hive with a screen to keep them from gathering poison honey, confederate jasmine, or when the area has been sprayed for bugs. I use no chemicals inside my hives and will even put lady bugs inside as we go into the two weeks of yearly cold. They find a warm corner and leave the hive when it is warm enough outside. Observation hives haven't provided a reason why the first showed up but now I put them there. It is the production of the highest quality container vegetables that have been properly pollinated. Snow peas, strawberries, and everything else without toxic chemicals and with the best honey makes the difference in my backyard. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:54:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would be very interested in tips on what a backyard beekeeper can > do to get high quality honey that is the equal of that produced by > commerical beekeepers. > For example, is the testing that would be > necessary, available and afforable to the backyard beekeeper? Who do > you go to for such testing? Sorry if you got the impression that all backlot beekeepers are dangerous. I'd say that most are quite safe and competant and also state that, other than paints, preservatives, non-standard hive construction materials, poor choices of feed, off-label use of chemicals, miticides and drugs or home remedies and accidental contamination of the honey in removing, transporting, extraction, bottling and labelling, there is very little to worrry about, except, possibly, local environmental contamination or sabotage. Testing is really not necessary where the user is able to know every step and every material that goes into the production of the honey. That is why HACCP or HACCP-like certifications will become mandatory in all stages of food production in developed countries within a few years. Testing is less than fully adequate backup method of obtaining some confidence in a product that does not have a documented and certified history. Although, backlot honey has a potential to be the most dangerous, it also has the potential to be the safest. Assuming you have never used anything in contact with or close proximity to your honey that you would not comfortably put in your mouth, you have no worries. If you are using drugs and miticides, then you have to decide just how comfortable you are with the way that you used them, and with the assurances of authorities that they are safe. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com As I wrote this, it felt like deja vue. I think there is lots on honey quality in the archives. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:21:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "C.B." Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? Seriously, that is just about how I felt after reading the postings. I've been curious about measuring the quality of my honey and doing what I can to improve it, but it was very dishearting after all the work that even a backyard beekeeper puts in, to hear that the honey isn't fit for consumption. I have more bees than I know what to do with, so I'm hoping this means my honey isn't that dangerous :) --Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 06:26:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While > commercial beekeepers extract into 2500 gallon holding tanks which > blend everything together the backyard beekeeper can do a two frames > extraction. These are two points I missed making in my reply last night. By blending honey from numerous sources in large tanks and large lots, the concentrations of any poisons, whether natural, like poisonous nectars, or manmade, like pesticides, is drastically lowered compared to the realatively high levels that might be in one or two frames of honey collected and extracted separately. By blending, commercial channels increase the probability of some unwanted substance being found in the product, but at the same time vastly increase the liklihood that any such toxin will be far below dangerous levels. and >... Sealing your hive with a screen to keep them from > gathering poison honey, confederate jasmine, or when the area has > been sprayed for bugs. These are remedies that are available to backlot beekeepers that are not practical for commercial producers. Commercial producers generally just stay away from such hazards. Even so, the above quote highlights some hazards that threaten consumers of small lots can that are not probable in blended commercial product. I found it interesting that some respondants thought that I could somehow make judgments of their personal output, when I don't know them, or their level of competence. I was simply making a comment about the probabilities. Although I can say for sure that there are some dangerous people out there, I cannot begin to say who they are without knowing the details of their locale, their methods and their equipment. The goal of my article was simply to stimulate consciousness on the question and to provoke thought. It is up to each and every beekeeper to analyse his or her methods and decide for him or herself. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, A blanket statement is, indeed, many a dangerous thing, splendid it may sound. Defining and qualifying a few terms under discussion will eliminate most such confusion. For example, what do you mean a “backyard beekeeping” or “backlot beekeeping”? To what extend is “pure” honey? What is “best honey” according to whose definition? Obviously the terms “backyard beekeeping” or “backlot beekeeping” do not mean “anyone who keeps bees in his/her backyard” as the words denote, but on the surface they sure sound like that. These terms seem to connote more the lackadaisical beekeeping practice, a voodoo beekeeping if you will. [With mites and SHB and others, I assume such beehaving will be increasingly difficult, though] Another point is that not all commercial beekeepers are as honorable or honest as many here claim—-just as not all voodoo practitioners produce bootlegged honey. (I am aware of a commercial beehaver in Oklahoma who mixed HFCS with honey and sold his snake oil en masse to local restaurants as "pure hone," only to take his fake honey away after a lawsuit). If a backyard beekeeping refers to a guy that owns only a few hives, I dare say he/she is the true beekeeper who can really enjoy having bees since the more colonies you manage, the less fun you will have with bees. You just won’t be able to look at the bees, as they are, as they fly around but the dollar signs. I must confess those were the days when you had one or two hives in the backyard when you had time to sit around the hive all day, watching and enjoying the wonders of nature. If you own two hundreds or two thousands, good luck, you won’t be able to talk to even your own children, let alone your spouse. At this point, you do not own the bees; you are owned by the money the bees will bring. Many commercial beekeepers I know of, in fact, dream of the days when they can retire and own only a handful of hives in the backlot. Finally, since it is impossible to control every beekeeper on the face of this planet,no matter their modus operandi, I don’t think blaming on others will be productive among beekeepers; it will be like pissing against the gale-force wind. No, I am not bitter. Yoon from People's Republick of Oklahoma :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:23:08 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? Chris said: > Who do you go to for such testing? Well, you KNOW what you did with your bees and honey, so most of the tests are not really required. Most tests are done because the buyer does not "trust" the producer, or because the buyer wants to "find" some defect that can justify a lower-than-fair-market price for that load of honey. I'm not sure who, other than co-ops, buyers, and brokers, have the expertise, experience, or subject matter knowledge to perform such tests. Or the interest. Labs do not like having to create test methodologies when they do not see much of a "market". Maybe the State Apiarists know of labs that can (and will) do some testing if you are interested in getting some "baseline" test data, just to verify that your normal practices are not resulting in honey that is less-than "commercial quality". Plan of spending hundreds of dollars. > If the commercial level isn't obtainable, it would be > useful to know what a competent (i.e., follows the > directions for medications, keeps honey comb clean, > processes honey in an area that is as clean as one can > get in a home setting etc.). backyard beekeeper should > do that they aren't. My view is that, as a "smaller" producer, I am not obligated to test every batch of honey, as long as I keep good records that document my compliance with industry standards and regulations. When did I put in my Apistan? When did I take it out? When did I feed? When did I stop? When did I super? Did the bloom happen in a timeframe relative to my supering and harvesting that allows me to say that a specific super contains a specific monofloral honey? If you document the activities for each and every colony and each and every super, you have a "paper trail" that can be used to prove that your honey is a product of "good practices". Keeping good records lets you PROVE that your actions were consistently "competent", and obviates the "testing". Since you are not making the extreme obvious errors in the area of basic sanitation that many have seen some beekeepers make (which I feel is the only major sin that hobbyist beekeepers uniquely face), the easy way to look at this issue is to ask if you would feel proud if your honey customers watched every step in your honey processing. I have a 8 foot by 8 foot "glass wall" window on my honey house. Anyone who wants can drop by and watch the honey processing (without getting in the way or getting the place dirty). Its about the only way my friends are able to see me when it is harvest time! They all want my honey, so I can conclude that I am meeting or exceeding my customers' criteria for clean and sanitary practices. The "as clean as one can get in a home setting" may be something one can improve. Assume that your honey comes from the bees in "perfect" condition. (It does!) All one need then do is keep things as clean as a surgical theater, and not screw up the honey. Think stainless steel or enameled countertops and tables, dust covers for everything, floors that are washed down daily during harvest season, and clean, clean, clean. (Our dog thinks that he did something "wrong" during every harvest time and mopes around a bit when I don't let him come with me into the honey house. I have to give him special attention to make up for it, but his usual position at my feet is not acceptable when I am working with honey.) Since I assume that you will not be blending your honey, the "tests" you need to think about might be reasonably limited to the usual "honey show" tests (refractometer and polariscope, both which should be something you can borrow from your local bee association). There's an idea - treat EVERY bottle/comb as if it were going to be entered in a honey show. Could you enter a randomly-selected bottle from your "regular production" in a show and expect to get a respectable score? If not, why not? Now, fix it. (Wow, I'm starting to sound like Ann Harmon! How embarrassing for her! I'd better stop. Ann? Ann? Any words of wisdom?) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:01:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? In-Reply-To: <200304082336.h38MlHEV029727@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I would be very interested in tips on what a > backyard beekeeper can do to > get high quality honey that is the equal of that > produced by commerical > beekeepers. I think you may have it backwards. With the risk of making "blanket statements", I think it is the commercial beekeepers who strive to produce honey equal to that of the backyard beekeeper. Unless you are abusing miticides, bottling in your bathtub, etc., your there should be nothing wrong with your honey. If you extract your honey and bottle it without heating or ultra-filtering it, it is better tasting and better for you than most of what is on the store shelves. Eugene Makovec __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:17:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Stein Subject: Honey Quality from the Consumer Side In-Reply-To: <000901c2fddf$f62bdfc0$8eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the discussion about honey quality, I thought this excerpt from the "Wine Spectator", April 30, 2001 entitled "Sweet Thing", has some interesting comments about honey. The following comments are taken from this article: "There are hundreds, if not thousands of varieties of honey in the world. When doing tastings at retail events and food shows, people say "Oh, we didn't know honey came in flavors." Unfortunately, these varietal flavors rarely appear on the dinner tables of most Americans, because most honey in the United States has been homogenized by large packers or cooperatives. They blend many honeys, even from several countries, to get a consistent taste. Large producers also process honey so that it is brilliantly clear, and also so it won't crystallize, which it naturally wants to do. These producers heat treat honey to keep it from crystallizing. Heating honey to 160 °F destroys its natural enzymes, those that give it character and flavor. Large producers also fine and filter honey, taking out pollen and other materials that not only have flavor, but nutrients. The result is a "honeylike syrup", instead of the real thing. But small artisanal producers are making honeys that are distinctive, if not idiosyncratic. Artisanal honey producers and packagers heat their honey to lower temperatures than do large scale producers, usually between 120 °F and 140 °F, and strain the honey through fine-weave cloth, but do not fine it. Many of these honeys are unheated and unfiltered. The presence of solids and the lack of clarity can prevent honey from qualifying for a Grade A (also called "Fancy") rating. Somewhat less-refined honey gets a Grade B (or "Choice") rating. But such designations can be meaningless regarding quality. Many of the most exciting honeys on the market today are labeled Choice, and many top honeys are ungraded. Appearance doesn't indicate the quality of honey, though generally, the darker the honey the deeper its flavor." Jim Stein Western PA Beekeeper -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:28:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since you are not making the extreme obvious errors in > the area of basic sanitation that many have seen some > beekeepers make (which I feel is the only major sin that > hobbyist beekeepers uniquely face), The other major concerns to me are * the use of unusual and/or recycled materials in hive construction, * the use of unsafe or unproven supplements and/or 'treatments' * or -- I have seen this often -- excessive or badly administered doses of approved chemicals. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kenneth Daniel Kostel Subject: Urban Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am a journalism student at Columbia University in New York City and I'm writing a story about beekeeping in urban areas (motivations, challenges, etc.) I've already spoken with beekeepers in New York and San Francisco, but am interested in widening the discussion. If anyone is interested in talking about their experiences, please feel free to drop me an e-mail directly (kdk2002@columbia.edu) and tell me how to get in touch with you. Thanks in advance for your help. Ken ________________________________________ Ken Kostel Earth & Environmental Science Journalism Columbia University kdk2002@columbia.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:28:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "C. B." Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? The additional details in the replies makes me feel more at ease. In my case, I literally am a backyard beekeeper, but I aspire to a higher level of beekeeping than that term usually implies. My main concern is with pesticides. Over the 15 years I been keeping bees, the area I live in has become more developed. The main floral source is blackberries (never sprayed, either left alone or cut down), but the development in the area has greatly reduced the amount of berries. My main crop is still blackberry, but as the years have passed I can start to taste other sources (herbs like thyme) so I'm assuming the bees are searching harder and going places I don't necessarily know about. I'm not sure what the risks are for the bees gathering from homes in the area that are using who knows what kind of chemicals in their yards. I'm very, very careful about brood comb and honey comb mixing so I don't have any worries about the miticides I use (beyond the question of their basic safety). But I'm less and less able to be sure about chemicals outside of the hive. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, If you are dealling with honey from countries such as China you need to process like most large packers do to insure a safe product. Many articles have been done about the Chinese beekeeper and his methods. Dust, filth, honey storage in recycled oil drums, dead bees , insects and not to forget mice are often found in the honey *Before* processed in China. Acording to the many American Bee Journal articles on beekeeping in China the Chinese beekeeper for the most part extracts his honey in a tent with a dirt floor without hot or at times running water. China takes all honey produced and processes the honey. When the packer/buyer sees the product the honey looks very different. Bob Ps. Is the Chinese honey different flavor & aroma really because of the honey comes from a flower you never heard of in the U.S. ? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:52:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Producing honey naturally in order to safeguard the health market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The question on 'how can a backyard beekeeper can get high quality honey = that is the equal of that produced by commercial beekeepers'? raises the = issue that places the whole future of recreational beekeeping at risk, = in my view.=20 Modern beekeeping took off 150 years ago when Langstroth designed the = movable frame and was quickly adapted by Root to provide the basis for = large scale honey production. Methods for keeping bees were fully = developed say 100 years ago. While lifestyles have changed enormously = since that time, with vast improvements in hygiene and concern over = human health, beekeeping has simply not kept pace. Beekeepers know that = but have taken too little action. So far, honey consumers seem not to = have noticed but I believe a crisis could explode at any time.=20 Let's not beat about the bush - many beekeeping practices (for example = sugar feeding), that have recently been recommended to beginners in this = list, are quite simply incompatible with producing pure honey. There is = absolutely no way you can plump a colony up on sugar before (or even it = seems, during) a flow and keep supers clear of 'cured' syrup. It's in = the biology of the bee. They build a brood nest and pack stores around = it. As the nest expands, they move the stores up and around. They simply = do not consume sugar to draw out a super of foundation and leave it dry = for use later. George Imirie said it - 'bees do not build comb unless = there is an immediate need'. UK beekeepers in WW2 who fed only small = amounts of green-dyed sugar (when sugar was rationed) found they got = green honey.=20 Any large-scale honey producers who use sugar feeding to draw supers = before a flow will contaminate their honey, but if the honey crop is = large, the degree of contamination may be small. Less skilful beekeepers = who get smaller crops will have a higher level of contamination. Anyone = following George Imrie's advice to feed to set a colony by 15 April, = then feed steadily sugar to September and use that colony for honey = production next spring, will not be able to escape having a very high = level of fake honey in the crop.=20 The danger for the future of beekeeping is clear. Quality honey retails = for =A32.50 to =A34 (in UK), 10 times the price of sugar, but only = because a sizeable part of the population is acutely concerned with = health. Sugar (sucrose) is known to be an artificial food which the body = cannot properly absorb - it produces 'sugar highs' in children, with = later risk of obesity and teen-age diabetes. The health conscious accept = that pure honey is one of the finest foods for humans, containing almost = everything the body needs, to which humans are fully adapted through the = process of evolution. So they are prepared to pay a price sufficient to = compensate for the increasing costs and losses caused (or about to be = caused) by Varroa, africanized bees, hive beetles, tropylaelaps (?), and = carpensis clone workers. While the reputation for quality is maintained, = beekeeping will be able to continue - the reputation of honey for purity = is beekeeping's greatest asset. But current practices put all at risk. = One can just see the headline by some influential food writer = 'beekeeper's honey is plumped full of sugar!', repeated and passed on to = 10,000 health magazines and newsletters. No matter if it is only partly = true - in the media age, bad news is good news and rebuttals are rarely = read. If honey is down-graded in the public imagination from 'miracle = health food' to a cooking additive worth only less than =A31 per pound, = we are finished - and it will be totally our own fault.=20 So, to cut to the question, how can a backyard (or any other) beekeeper = produce pure honey for selling at top price to the health-conscious? = Follow the large-scale producers? We have been assured they produce the = highest quality honey, which is checked by testing. It is still strange = that they sell only at a low price to packers who then disguise the = character of the honey by blending. Fine unblended honey can retail at = say =A34 (say $6), so why do they not copyright a brand name, contract = with packers to work to standards set by the producers and market to = quality stores, health outlets and direct to the public? A hobbyists = like me sells all the honey from 20 hives locally, with my own label = giving my name and address, some through the Centre for Healthy Living, = some at schools, some direct off a market stall. I face my customers - = why do large producers hide anonymously behind packers if the product is = really so good?=20 I suggest it would be in the best long-term interests of beekeepers to = stick to only 'natural' methods to safeguard that vital health market. = My last message drew long responses that attached all sorts of = extensions of meaning to simple words, seemingly based on prejudice. Can = we agree to use words with only their face meanings, not as 'codes'. = 'Natural' means merely 'as nature does it' which still leaves wide = latitude as bees are pretty adaptable, 'commercial' means doing it 'as a = business' and does not imply anything as to size of operation, 'amateur' = means doing it for the love of it, 'backyard' means the bees are kept at = home as part of the family's lifestyle and does not imply ignorant, = grubby and a walking danger to the public. The terms are not exclusive - = natural hny can be produced commercially. =20 We may not agree on what is 'natural' beekeeping but my list is: 1.. Keep strains of bees already adapted to your local climate and = day-length - it is unnatural for bees to move great distances. The = concept of wonder strains that will succeed everywhere is a myth.=20 2.. Do not use plastic foundation as the bees find it an unnatural = material to find in a bee nest and will only draw it if stuffed with = sugar. Wax foundation is readily used by bees and quickly turned to comb = as needed. In UK, expert beekeepers in canola areas put on supers with = no foundation at all, just a triangle of sealed honey left from cutting = out last year's comb. Bees draw comb very fast in a major flow.=20 3.. Start packages and swarms on foundation with a single feed of 1 = gallon of syrup, then wait for natural expansion of the new nest in = accordance with nectar flows, however long that takes. If you want honey = in your first year, go help a local beekeeper who will both teach you = and pay for your labour in honey - or don't take up beekeeping. Don't = plant raspberries either - they fruit only on second year wood.=20 4.. Replace at least 1/3 of the brood combs annually with fresh = foundation - better 100%. This suppresses disease organisms that infect = comb. 5.. Never ever feed any anti-biotics. Burn any colony with AFB. Make = an artificial swarm of any colony with light EFB infection, starve until = bees drop from the cluster, then re-hive in the sterilised hive on new = foundation for 24 hrs, then destroy whatever comb has been built, and = only then feed 1 gallon of syrup. (This prevents any carry-over of = diseased honey). 6.. Control swarming by accelerating the natural cycle in the bees = nest (the Demarree principle) as you both lose your harvest if bees = swarm and you add to wild colonies that become disease reservoirs. 7.. Most importantly, get to know your area and how many colonies it = can support . Never over-stock an area. Hungry bees get bad tempered and = prone to disease.=20 8.. Most importantly, if you live in an area that is unsuitable for = honeybees, admit it. Some areas only have one short flow. There are many = solitary bees adapted to that environment - they emerge with the flow, = stock a few cells and lay eggs, then die. The next generation emerges = next year. Honeybees evolved in the tropics where there is forage most = of the year except in the rainy season. They have great difficulty in = coping with a 10-month fast - even honeybees get bored with nothing to = do! Sugar syrup is not a replacement for nectar - it lacks all the = vitamins, minerals and enzymes needed to build healthy bees. Bees, like = humans, are what they eat. When humans were undernourished in the = Industrial Age, bodies were small and life expectancy only 40 years. = Nurse bees rob their own bodies of protein when raising larvae on sugar = and insufficient pollen, and the resulting bees also lack vitality. So = keep colonies alive by feeding back their own honey and their own pollen = in patties. The true surplus is only what is left over at the start of = the next year's flow and it may not be much at all - a colony needs some = 200 lbs of honey to sustain itself for a year. Above all, do not feed = sugar and then claim the harvest is honey - call it 'hunny' if you will, = and perhaps add fruit juice for flavouring and develop a market for 'a = product made from sugar by honeybees with added natural flavouring'.=20 9.. Use a honey extractor only when you have a rush on. Honey was not = meant to thrown out as droplets and crashed into walls. Part of the = aromatics that give scent and flavour are driven off - try extracting = where bees can find you and see how quickly the scent reaches them. = Premium honey is got by uncapping fresh comb, then scarping off the = honey and cell walls into a sieve and letting it drain. It comes off the = small amount of open-textured wax very quickly. The process is so gentle = you can do it in the evening by the hive side without trouble. If = extracting, never put in unsealed frames or frames with open brood - = customers do not expect blood in cows' milk and should not get bee = juices in honey (but Root's ABC states all extracted honey must be = strained to remove dead bees, larvae and other rubbish! Ugh!). Let all = honey - extracted or strained - settle in a tall tank in a warm place = until all debris has risen to the top. Never heat honey, only warm it to = hive temperature 35degrees C. Coarse filter only the last honey in a = tank after the clean honey has been bottled. Never use fine filters that = take out natural ingredients such as pollen grains. Have nothing to do = with packers who will alter the character of your honey. Inform = customers how to soften honey safely if they want to.=20 10.. Monitor Varroa levels regularly by checking mite drop. Use = Apistan only when necessary within an Integrated Pest Management System = that includes open mesh floors, culling drone brood, dusting with = powders, careful application of formic acid.=20 11.. Keep careful records and learn to do better by studying them = later.=20 When reviewing your methods, you might think also about the hive you are = using. The Langstroth and clone (the UK National) are basically now out = of date. They were designed a century ago when people were physically = much stronger than today. You cannot Demaree a National (Langstroth is = worse) while keeping within the UK Heath & Safety Executive guidelines = for lifting. Beekeepers' back is common - how clever is it to spend = years in pain because you used outdated equipment for your hobby? The = Dartington Long Deep Hive is a new pattern where the heaviest lift is a = honeybox (or half-sized super) weighing only 16 lbs, and you can = Demarree sideways lifting no more than individual deep frames. More info = if you email me at gmv47@ dial.pipex.com.=20 Good luck - here hoping for a better future for bees, beekeepers and = beekeeping! Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:00:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Backyard honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C.B. is wiorried at urban bees collecting pesticides from neigbouring = gardens.=20 Surely few if any pesticides are spayed onto flowers. Its mostly on veg = or developing fruit, post flowering. But if nasties are being used, = what about an awareness campaign with the local garden centre? That's = how farmers were persauded to stop spraying crops in flower. =20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:20:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: My Carniolan bees arrive a few days early. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm writing this Wednesday afternoon. When I got into work this morning I got a call from the electrical contractor saying the inspector from the Electric Company would be at the house on Friday a 1pm to inspect the repairs I had to have done after damage from a wind downed tree. I said to myself: Good, the bees aren't here yet so there won't be any chance for him to panic and refuse to inspect etc. A few minutes later, after getting back from the rest room, there was a package of bees sitting on my chair. The first sunny day won't be until Sunday, and as I indicated above, I want to keep them inside at least until after the Electric Company inspector has done his thing in the back yard on Friday. The house is kept a 60 degrees for conservation purposes. So: I got the bees home, misted both sides of the package with tepid water, and put the whole unopened package into a hive body (with a bottom board) and filled the extra space on each side with a total of 9 undrawn frames for extra insulation. I put the inner and outer cover on and left the bees so I could post this on the net. Any suggestions of any other steps I should take between now and when I install the bees? Should I rush-order a MARKED queen now and install her with the package (instead of the unmarked queen that came with it) so I can have an easier time when I re-queen, as planned, in August? Can I wait for the slightly warmer, sunny day forecasted for zip 11230 on Sunday, or should I do a rainy-weather install (i.e. into an empty hive body on top of my target, foundation framed, hive body) on Friday after the electrical inspector leaves? Any suggestions would be appreciated. -Dennis (aka Paul D. Law) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:12:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep 3 hives in a garage attic (due to a small property in a suburbian setting) and it gets somewhat hot up there in the summer. I use open bottoms and tops and seldom see frantic fanning by the bees. I do see quite a few varroa fall through the open bottoms. Studies show that open bottom alone do not significantly reduce varroa. For me, any varroa that drops to its death is one less varroa on the bees. Waldemar Long Island, NY > > > > do open bottom boards really help in reducing the varrola problem? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Accident MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been a Bee accident in Southern Lower Michigan but I don't have any details. Does anyone know if there were any injuries or if any help is needed? Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:31:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Backyard honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bait and switch is the ONLY thing that ever works when trying to convert anyone from an old habbit such as spraying. What could be offered in return though that wouldnt hurt the bees? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:48:41 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: open bottom boards In-Reply-To: <185.191bd084.2bc42301@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: [BEE-L] open bottom boards > > > do open bottom boards really help in reducing the varrola problem? Very short NO in my opinion! I have been using open mesh flours for more than twenty years now, and I have the same troubles like every one else with Varroa. Open mesh flours is in my opinion only for ventilation. Of course other can look at if it can have other influence, but I doubt the influence of Varroa is very much to investigate into. Use it as ventilation, and do not relay of influence on the varroa. > Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software now with entries for Super, Medium, Shallow and hivetype with more. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Will Crow Subject: GMO cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could someone please point me towards any information on GMO cotton as it relates to beekeeping in close proximity thereof. Will Crow (I'm not a greenpeace activist. I'm just a simple red-neck.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally in order to safeguard the health market Robin Dartington said: > many beekeeping practices (for example sugar feeding), that have > recently been recommended to beginners in this list, are quite > simply incompatible with producing pure honey. It was not "recommended" - it was one option available that would achieve his goal under the specific conditions and limitations he described. The actual "recommendation" was to go beg, buy, or borrow some drawn comb! But does Robin's claim contain a Seed of Truth, or just fertilizer? Let's walk through a typical year here at Farmageddon, and see what happens to "feed": a) The bees draw comb (by feeding syrup) in the hottest days of late summer, after last harvest. Fall nectar in VA is really only good for winter stores most years, so any fall blooms are also "stores". b) I then remove the drawn comb before the bees have any chance to completely finish it, let alone fill it with any syrup. Any combs that might contain syrup are placed in supers above the inner cover, where the bees will soon clean them out so the new (dry) comb can be stored for winter. c) Once drawn comb is off, I then continue feeding any light colonies until they are "ready" for winter, meaning that they have enough stores to make it to early spring. d) In very early spring (in the snows of February), I feed a little more, to get brood rearing going. Sometimes, I must feed colonies that have eaten nearly all their stores longer than those who simply need "motivation". e) The progression of blooms is very predictable if one counts "degree-days" from last frost as any gardener would do, so there is zero chance of any overlap between feeding and a harvestable bloom. In fact, there are months between the two. Last frost here in VA is April 15th. The first blooms of interest are in May. All feeders were off by March 2nd this year. f) Since spring is cold or cool, the bees simply do not have the temperature conditions to "make honey" from syrup fed. The growing population of brood and bees can cause some hives to loose several pounds a week after feeders are removed. Since they are limited to the brood nest, there is a limit to how much feed they can store, and they clearly do not have sufficient comb surface area to even think about evaporating off tiny amounts of syrup in many cells. They are forced to (and they do) nearly fill cells with syrup. g) Since the spring feeding is brief for colonies not at risk of starvation, the amount of syrup fed is small. So what happens to the syrup? Anyone with an observation hive can watch and see the bees consume the syrup before they go back to ripping open cells of honey, simply because "syrup" is "ready to eat". Honey takes some work to "prepare". It is cold in spring. Bees are not stupid. > There is absolutely no way you can plump a colony up on sugar before > (or even it seems, during) a flow and keep supers clear of 'cured' syrup. Well, you certainly don't feed DURING a flow! :) You also do not "pump up" a colony, you feed briefly to convince the queen to start laying, most often when snow is still on the ground. Yes, it takes skill, timing, and planning. If one doesn't know when to do this relative to their first useful blooms, one is flying blind, and risks exactly the problem posed by Robin. And just when might this syrup be "cured"? When might it be warm enough to evaporate syrup or nectar? May? June? By then it will have been consumed. Because you did not feed too much! > It's in the biology of the bee. They build a brood nest and pack > stores around it. > As the nest expands, they move the stores up and around. If a beekeeper is foolish enough to put supers on that early, this might be a problem, but one adds supers JUST before the bloom, not months or weeks before. > They simply do not consume sugar to draw out a super of foundation and > leave it dry for use later. They do if you take away the almost completely drawn comb just before they are done! Of course, one needs to be able to dance through one's apiaries every other day with all the elegance of Fred Astaire, peeking in supers to see which ones need to be pulled to do this. It is hard work. But it is worth it. > George Imirie said it - 'bees do not build comb unless there is an > immediate need'. Or unless you convince them that there is a "need" by removing all harvestable honey supers, and replacing them with foundation and a feeder. Bees can be fooled. They are insects. We are humans. No contest. For most of us, at least. :) > UK beekeepers in WW2 who fed only small amounts of green-dyed sugar > (when sugar was rationed) found they got green honey. We have learned much since the 1940s. I had no idea how much. If they fed close to the bloom, and/or with supers on, and/or feeding too much, this was sure to happen. They could have also made any number of other massive mistakes. It sounds to me like a tale about a group of people without a plan, without a calendar, with no knowledge of the massive and highly predictable impact of the weather on spring blooms. ...but Green honey? Sounds like a great St. Patrick's Day promotion. Gee, thanks for the idea! Food coloring, eh? > Any large-scale honey producers who use sugar feeding to draw supers > before > a flow will contaminate their honey, but if the honey crop is large, the > degree of contamination may be small. But detectable. There are a number of highly sophisticated tests with a good track record in exposing adulterated honey, including the adulteration that would result from force-feeding bees. The lot would be rejected. Robin's points might be valid concerns in regard to an uniformed beekeeper who feeds just before a bloom, feeds when supers are on, or has no idea of the amount of stores a colony might require for his area and weather, but basic ignorance or errors are no excuse to condemn "feeding" as "incompatible with producing pure honey". Feeding is sometimes required to keep bees alive so that they can produce any honey at all. Feeding is suggested to get the queen laying and create a large enough population to obtain a larger crop. To rail against "feeding" by wielding such unfaltering might in an unflattering light will do nothing but doom new beekeeper's colonies that are starving in spring. jim (Who would like to point out that the Law of "Conservation of Mass" states that Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. Therefore, "weapons of mass destruction" are incompatible with physics itself.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: GMO cotton In-Reply-To: <005701c2ff12$c5ff43d0$6401a8c0@will4lfmzpux0c> From: Will Crow > Could someone please point me towards any information on GMO cotton as > it > relates to beekeeping in close proximity thereof. > > Will Crow (I'm not a greenpeace activist. I'm just a simple red-neck.) I'm not ready to endorse GMO, because it certainly contains a lot of unknowns. But it is a reality that could not be changed if one wanted. Around here about 85 to 90% of the cotton is GMO (addition of a gene that makes the Bt poison inherant in the plant). But my simple observation is that it has saved a lot of bees from insecticide poisoning, because it tends to postpone application until late in the bloom, when flowers are not so attractive to bees. Of course, bees that are not poisoned, are also much more certain to make honey. And cotton honey is nice, except that it granulates quickly. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:34:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Very short NO in my opinion! I have been using open mesh flours for > more than twenty years now, and I have the same troubles like every > one else with Varroa. Open mesh flours is in my opinion only for > ventilation. I wonder, Jorn, if you use screen floors that are same size as the bottom of the brood box or if you use the smaller screens -- 10 cm x 10 cm or so -- that are poplular in northern europe? What size are your screens and what mesh do you use? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:51:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jess Randel Subject: Water MIME-Version: 1.0 I am new to beekeeping and am planning where to place my hives. I live in the northwest corner of Kansas. The place where I am going to place the bees I have a creak that runs threw the property. I want to use the creak for the water source so I don't have to worry about water. How close to the water source does the hive need to be placed? Is 50 or 100 yards away to far? Jess Randel Technology Coordinator jrandel@usd294.org 785-475-3805 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:21:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Producing honey naturally to safeguard the health market. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim writes: "Robin's points might be valid concerns in regard to an = uniformed beekeeper who feeds just before a bloom, feeds when supers are on, or has no idea of the amount of stores a colony might require for his area and weather, but basic ignorance or errors are no excuse to condemn "feeding" as "incompatible with producing pure honey". A just rebuke, at the end of an excellent essay on the correct use of = sugar feeding. But note the included caveat - ' an uninformed = beekeeper'. Bees and beekeeping is a very big subject, the more you find = out the more you realise how little you know. To become informed takes = time and application.=20 In the meantime, I believe it is safer to treat bees with respect and = follow nature. This means asking yourself at ever stage 'how will the = bees interpret what I have just done? You think, 'I have added a super = to give room for the flow due next week'. The bees think: "Hey, our = cavity just got bigger - we have to re-optimise our nest, work out if it = would be wise use of resources to build out a little more comb now or = wait for better weather, perhaps we could risk enlarging the brood area = a bit, let's start by shifting some stores around."=20 The art of beekeeping (in my view) begins when you understand the bee = colony as a sophisticated organisation that has learnt to optimise its = performance (measured in its own terms, not ours) through 'resource = management'. Swarming is a prime example - swarming is the end purpose = of the colony (reproduction) but is highly risky - three quarters of = wild' swarms are dead within a year. Colonies measure factors such as = population, food reserves, area of comb, vitality of the queen and = decide in winter whether to start swarm preparations months later in = late spring. (See Prof Mark Winston, 'Biology of the Honeybee). = 'Resource Management' is a difficult skill - learn it and you can = command a high salary in business.=20 So let me add one more suggestion to my list for 'natural beekeeping': 12. As a beginner, proceed as above. As soon as possible, build up your = apiary to say 10 stocks and run for at least 10 years - less and you = will not have experience of enough variations in seasons or of strains = of bee. Study your records and the best bee books. Then read Jim's essay = on sugar feeding, and if sure you understand it, see if you could help = your stocks to achieve more of their natural potential by using the = judicious, conscientious and careful methods he describes. Until then, = do not risk your honey quality - and the reputation of beekeeper's honey = in general - by interfering with the natural order within the hive = before you can accurately predict the results. Apologies to all list readers for taking all this air time. The weather = here is awful - so just keeping myself busy. Hope it interests those of = you also stuck at home. Respects to Jim, and my envy to anyone lifting = heavy boxes in blistering sunshine.=20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:47:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Open mesh flours is in my opinion only for > ventilation. I wonder if there is some slight benefit to the bees not having to walk through the detritus that accumulates on the bottom board? Ventilation is good, though. Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 50 to 100 would be fine. Bees need water so having something that close is good. OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html How close to the water > source does the hive need to be placed? Is 50 or 100 yards away to far? > > > Jess Randel > Technology Coordinator > jrandel@usd294.org > 785-475-3805 > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:55:45 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: open bottom boards In-Reply-To: <002c01c2ff65$eedfa850$38b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] open bottom boards > > one else with Varroa. Open mesh flours is in my opinion only for > > ventilation. > > I wonder, Jorn, if you use screen floors that are same size as the > bottom of the brood box or if you use the smaller screens -- 10 cm x 10 > cm or so -- that are poplular in northern europe? When I started this type of hives I bought the polyester supers but decided to make the bottom and the lids myself due to the difference in cost. The bottom is simple a frame covered with mesh. I was not at all thinking of Varroa because at this time Denmark was free of those creatures. Because of the size of the mesh I could by at this time I had to cover the back of the bottom with a peace of plywood, means that only 80 % of the bottom is mesh. The mesh I used was fly mesh, but this is now getting very rusty, so I have to replace it. This time I will se if I can get stainless mesh, but the size of the mesh openings is not of much concern. By the way, I am no longer counting varroa. I have those and I have to treat. I treat in spring with Formic acid, that I get from a farmer in exchange for a little honey, as soon as I have harvested the last honey and have given the winter feed I drip with oxalic acid. This has in my system given about 85 to 90 % well wintered hives coming out well in spring. This spring I had to combine some few week hives. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software More fields like mating places for queen, queen mother and queen grandmother home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:10:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/03 05:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << There is = absolutely no way you can plump a colony up on sugar before (or even it = seems, during) a flow and keep supers clear of 'cured' syrup. >> It always amuses me that in 'Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey' the author describes the practice he recommended of feeding heavily with X pounds of sugar and being rewarded with X pounds of honey to harvest later. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:16:31 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Malathion drift impacts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We're looking for information about aerial spraying of malathion and the= impacts of drift. Does anyone have anything that might be relevant? Can= anyone suggest sources of information? Thanks, Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:51:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? In-Reply-To: <200304090124.h391DnD1003049@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: >Here's a section of comb my little girls made for me during the late >summer when my bees in the "great outdoors" were just hungry. > >http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/combhoney.html > > How's your success been with the cassette supers? I'm thinking about getting a few of them next year (provided that my colonies survive my first year of beekeeping ;-) and was wondering which ones seem to be the best suited for the job. Dadant seems to have a pretty spiffy system but I've also seen a number of others. Thanks, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:27:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: Producing Honey naturally Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All Robin makes good points. May I add my small contribution to this debate. Leave the bees one super of honey rather than feeding them syrup. This will IMHO ensure that the bees are getting a food which contains the enzymes which they have put into the honey rather than the syrup which we otherwise feed them. Just put the super under the brood chamber separated from the brood chamber by a queen excluder, and the bees who abhor a food source under the brood chamber, will remove the stores to the brood chamber. I can hear the protests of the beekeepers who are appalled at this loss of some of their crop. But think about it! Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:42:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? "How's your success been with the cassette supers?" The picture is one of the cassette super systems. I chose it because it takes less time than the other systems. I put them on, wait a few weeks, and sell them. There are advantages and disadvantages to all the systems, I recommend spending MANY hours reading through the archives on BEE-L, then digesting the info, then experimenting. I have a BSc degree from Cal-Poly in Fruit Science (Pomology) but I can tell you that the archives on BEE-L are worth MUCH more when it comes to beekeeping. P.S., Chris Slade, you asked me one time what to do with cappings to get the honey out. Well, I've almost got an answer, and it is relevant to this thread. :-) Please contact me if anyone has any questions regarding producing comb honey. I haven't got one tenth of one percent the experience of the Old Drones on this board, but I would be thrilled to be able to "give a little back" in the way of experience. Very best Tim Vaughan Acolyte of the BEE-L Masters. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A beekeeper of 4yrs now. I must be different than most. I first read the books gathered the information then bought the bees. I treat all chemicals with the respect that they deserve and follow their labels. After all we are dealing with peoples food here. I read Allen's comments with much interest. In my experience I would have said that the hobby beekeeper was much more trust worthy than the commercial. All the local hobby guys that I know are very particular as to how chemicals are administered. However this summer in a Heartland Apicultural Society session a commercial beekeeper made this comment. "If you are a small beekeeper you should remove the strips (referring to removing apistan and cumophos according to the label). But I can not do that. I have to many hives. I only get to see my hives twice a year and I have to treat or remove then." I was appalled at this statement and would have said as a result that commercial beekeepers can not be trusted, they have higher priorities. In my opinion if you find yourself in that guys shoes it's time to do some thing else. Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: open bottom boards Comments: To: Jorn_Johanesson@APIMO.DK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I would have thought that the size of the openings was very important. My feeling would be that the varroa would not readily fall through fly screening. Most of the references to screened bottoms seem to use 8 openings per inch. Of course the size of the opening would differ with different gauge wire but there is a Standard Mesh size in the U.S. and this is what all North American beekeepers would have available to them. Has any one tried 6 mesh? This would allow the mites to fall through more readily but would the bees have difficulty walking on a more open bottom? Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorn Johanesson" To: Sent: April 10, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] open bottom boards >> The mesh I used was fly mesh, but this is now getting very rusty, so I have > to replace it. This time I will se if I can get stainless mesh, but the size > of the mesh openings is not of much concern. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally to safeguard the health market. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Front-yard Beekeeping (as opposed to Backyard or Side-lot?) Although Robin’s long-winded points are sometimes interesting, others benumbing, yet done in good faith, I find many of his fine points unrealistic: 1. How can one insists on natural beekeeping [What is “natural,” putting the bees back into the gum?], while using Apistan, whose chemical components could be far worse than any sugar-contamination—not that I promote sugar feeding. IPM is not natural, either. Demaree, never (why harass bees with so much *unnatural* human intervention?) In fact, Demaree method strikes me as a psycho-beekeeper-harassment method. Again, the damnable word “natural” means a lot of different stuff to different people, naturally. 2. There is a honey-hungry market in the US and maybe in UK, as well, the *demo stench* if you will, that would readily wolf down lower-quality honey without such discrimination one might find among ultra-sophisticated and refined British aristocrats. Following the logic of the argument in your post then [small production], the honey crop will suffer, creating even a bigger market for Chinese and Argentine honey, already flooding the market to quench the thirst with undiscriminating taste buds. Hence, the argument against mass production appears myopic. 3. The argument assumes that the more one blends honey with other honey, the level of contamination will be lowered. Maybe, but the same process suffers the very quality you are speaking of. The more you blend, the more floral fragrance—the idiosyncratic property of honey that makes it so unique locally—will also disappear, to say the obvious. Worse, imagine how long that multi-blended honey must sit in a capacity settling tank/drums before a packer shows up and buys it and then blends it even more and sits it longer to improve it with the Chinese import. There are hundreds of them in store shelves. They all look so cute and clear with no content of distinguishing character. 4. To certain extent the overall point in your post is that we go back to primitive, prior-to-industrialization beekeeping practice. To wax Tom Paine’s famous analogy [against British colonization earlier], since milk was the best food for babies should grown-ups suck our mother’s breast still? The thought of going back is not necessarily good. In fact, the “natural way” as you describe goes against your very own *evolutionary* point of view: in nature an organism strives to exploit its resources maximum possible—despite constantly changing/challenging ontological circumstances. So must beekeeping. When feeding syrup, we are not taking about deliberately diluting honey to fool the customers. When talking about pure honey, we are not talking about one part-in- trillion-perfect purity. We are merely talking about conscientious beekeeping practice, a practice that will produce good honey, good enough for the beekeeper to put on his table and share with others and sell the surplus. Let us distinguish what is ideal and real. FWIW Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:19:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/10/2003 8:09:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, tvaughan@CHARTER.NET writes: > Please contact me if anyone has any questions regarding producing comb > honey. I haven't got one tenth of one percent the experience of the Old > Drones on this board, but I would be thrilled to be able to "give a little > back" in the way of experience. > I have a drone layer. Probably because of mites. I haven't read anywhere what to do with this hive, so I thought about it and have decided that if I set the hive off to the side and put a new one in it's place with a queen excluder under the first hive body, then the queen and the drones would be kept out. I tried to find the queen, but there were so many drones she was hard to distinguish. I cut out the unhatched drone brood and I cut out all drone comb. So if you, or any of the old drones would like to comment.....I'd be so happy. Kathy Cox, who will celebrate one year of beekeeping next month! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:03:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: The FLOW is ON in coastal SC! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need to spray my woodshop, (where I build equipment and store supplies), for spiders. What can I use that will not kill bees later? Lionel Evans :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:43:50 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Producing Honey naturally Tom Barrett said: > Leave the bees one super of honey rather than feeding them syrup. > This will IMHO ensure that the bees are getting a food which > contains the enzymes which they have put into the honey... While I am sure most all beekeepers leave a not insignificant amount of stored honey for the bees to overwinter on, I'm not sure I follow the logic in never feeding syrup. As for enzymes, any "required" enzymes will be added to nectar or syrup by either the house bee who fetches the food, or by the consuming bee. To clarify, a colony with zero stored honey can still raise brood. They take nectar (or syrup), mix with pollen, and make "brood food" (or, if you must, "royal jelly"). Any essential enzymes must be added by the house bees, since the brood is able to grow despite the lack of stored honey. The resulting bees do not appear to be malnourished in any way. While bees will "raid the stores" during a nectar dearth, my understanding of current research and my own observations have led me to believe that stored honey will not be consumed when nectar is available, so nectar (or syrup) is not an "inferior" food to honey. Bees seem to prefer nectar or syrup to honey when given a choice. The studies that I have seen have rated nectar (or man's closest analog, "syrup") as a "better" food for bees facing starvation (and overwintering bees) than stored honey due to the "solids" content of many honey types and the lack of cleansing flight opportunities in winter. > Just put the super under the brood chamber separated from > the brood chamber by a queen excluder, and the bees who abhor > a food source under the brood chamber, will remove the stores > to the brood chamber. To move stores around would require fairly warm temperatures, wouldn't it? At least warm enough for bees to leave the cluster. In winter, my colonies' clusters tend to "eat their way up" to the top of the hive. Do your bees "eat down"? And what about the queen excluder? If the main cluster moves down (or up) through a queen excluder to a super of "stores" honey, what happens to the queen? I would NEVER leave an excluder on a colony over winter, as I fear exactly this scenario. I'm not sure if the queen would get left behind in a smaller cluster of diehard loyalists to chill and die, or if the entire cluster would refuse to move without the queen and starve. I'd rather not know which, as I hate losing any colony. I assume that no attempt is being made to "jump start" the early laying of eggs by introducing a small artificial "bloom" in the form of a feeder. To my knowledge, mere available stores will never do this. What is required is "liquid nectar", and a little "fresh pollen", regardless of the actual authenticity of each (or lack thereof). I've never put a super that I wanted the bees to "clean out" below the brood chambers, as I am just too lazy to do all that extra lifting. I just toss them on above the inner cover, which works fine - the bees clean the comb out in short order. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:01:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Producing Honey naturally In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030411011757.031f75a0@gpo.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <5.2.0.9.0.20030411011757.031f75a0@gpo.iol.ie>, tom barrett writes >Leave the bees one super of honey rather than feeding them syrup. This will >IMHO ensure that the bees are getting a food which contains the enzymes >which they have put into the honey rather than the syrup which we otherwise >feed them. The bees add enzymes to their 'nectar' source whatever it is. It is how they process the syrup into non crystallising stores. For effective wintering, especially if you have long periods without flight, you also want as little indigestible solids as possible in the winter diet, to avoid the need for defecation. Sugar IS a better winter feed than honey, if given in good time and properly ripened. We use specially manufactured syrup with a sugars profile similar to honey (but no waste to accumulate in the gut) all the time now, and it seems better still, although a little more expensive. (This syrup requires very little processing as it is already down at 28% water, so dry it a little and cap it is all that is needed.) The cost/value theme you raised is of course also present. In the UK bulk market at this time 20lb of blossom honey is about GBP 30.00, 20lb equivalent sugar weight of special syrup to replace it is GBP 5.50. Worth the work, when the substitute is even better than the original? However, if the bees were stronger in spring on natural stores, and after all we are talking the value of only one super of honey here, the benefits would outweigh the extra cost and a super of honey would be left. (Been there, done that, keeping over 1000 supers of blossom honey back for feeding.) But there is no benefit, indeed the bees were a couple of bars poorer in spring on the natural stores than the substitute, so we take the extra crop. Following the Scandinavian example you would also strip out all or most of the natural stores in the broodnest. I've tried that too, and it works fine, but very laborious for marginal gain. It gives a splendid opportunity to get some late comb drawn with the syrup feed though, as autumn drawn comb is always perfect worker (no drones wanted, so why make them?). Some of the things I have read in recent threads regarding the evils of feeding sound very extreme. Judicious feeding is a crucial management tool, especially in summer dearths, spring before nectar sources are freely available, and in autumn after they have ended. The so called natural options advanced are just a recipe for low crops and increased death rates, elevating (or relegating?) honey to a scarcity position that would take it out of mainstream consumption. Fine for the beekeeper and his immediate cohorts at an amateur level, but bad for those urban based consumers who want to include honey in their family diet. An example of the judicious use of a feed was last summer in these parts. Spring and early summer weather was truly awful. Colonies were building only slowly. A fine line between survival and starvation was being walked all the time. Little swarming, little nectar, curtailed brood rearing, and even in some places drone slaughter started in late June. I gave a remedial feed of a gallon (rarely two to very strong colonies) at that time, except for a few locations where there was a natural light flow. My friend did not, for a variety of reasons. From mid July the weather improved a bit and by then I had almost twice as much brood in my hives as my friend did. The bees went to the heather, and in August we got a weather window. I had bee power of sorts, he did not. I got 45.9 lb of heather honey per colony, he got 13.8 lb per colony. 10 to 12 lb of sugar syrup at the right time made all that difference. End of the debate in my mind. (No doubt the gainsayers will be sceaming 'purity!' already, but think how much of that went into brood feeding to help raise all those extra bees, and the final difference was three times as much as the total feed anyway. If any syrup got in there it would be negligible, and certainly did not impact on the marketability of the harvest to prestigious packers.) Sugar feeding at the right times works wonders and there is no economic case, and very little moral case, for deliberately withholding it when it is required. Do it right and you should not degrade your harvest in quality terms, and improve it greatly in quantity. Working prosperous bees are contented and healthy. Struggling bees are not, and their ability to gather a subsequent harvest, often in a very short weather window, is compromised. Use the feed tank as required and don't feel bad about it. Second theme. Honey quality from amateurs and professionals. Take heed of what Allen says on this. Professionals cannot afford to offer bad product. Their livelihood depends on that. If the produce rubbish they will soon be in trouble. Amateurs are under no such pressures. Comparing like with like (ie Local honey), the very best samples I have seen have been from amateurs, but also all the really terrible ones. Yet they remain unshakeably convinced of the superiority of their product to that of the big guys who do not give it their level of attention. Wrong. All of us have bees, and the bees make the honey. In its pure state the honey from my bees and any amateur along the road, from the same forage and the same circumstances, will be identical. The bees do not know what the status of their keeper is. However, after harvest we have infinite capacity to ruin the stuff. Amateur showbench standards are only available to those who are able to lavish uneconomic amounts of time on their product, producing it sparkling and polished. There is no reason why, other than the time factor, why a professionals honey should not be presented to the same standards. Indeed, in the past we have had a guy come to me regularly for a certain type of honey to enter in a show in his own name, and it usually won, but all the jars polished and immaculate, not a bubble on the top, not a fingerprint on the jars. Professionals do not enter for two reasons. One is they do not have the time, and secondly they have nothing to gain and plenty to lose. If you win there is no triumph, because, after all, you are a professional, but if you do not win there is great chuckling in the beekeeping fraternity. We have been offered such awful honey by amateurs that as Allen said, you really would not want to eat it, and that is even without seeing their honey house. A recent thread on the use of second hand pickle jars brought similar to mind from the past about taints. Honey is exceptionally susceptible to taint, and old pickle jars will cause some taint. You cannot avoid it entirely even with very thorough washing. We have been offered honey smelling of:- Cooking oil (in second hand plastic oil tubs) Paint. (A guy who was a painter cleaned out the tins and put his honey in then) Pickles (Plastic tubs this time) Jam (Catering jam tubs) Oranges (Reason unknown) French fries (chips over here) (Second hand oil tubs again, in which the used oil had been dumped) Ice cream (tubs again) All rejected, all caused deep offence, all denied any taint. If you are used to the taint you will not notice it. All cited cost as the reason for using recycled containers, and would not take the free containers we issued to the small producers as it 'restricted who they could sell it to' and thus they might not get the very best price. Worst of all though was the guy who was too mean to buy enough buckets for his crop, so only had a few. He lovingly placed a supermarket carrier bag in each tub as a liner, filled them off the extractor, let it go rock hard, then lifted the bags out and repeated the process. So he turned up at our door with forty 60lb blocks (about three years harvest) of hard set honey in carrier bad liners to sell. Trouble was he did not even use new carrier bags, preferring to get multiple use out of them before he 'gave them away' with his honey. In his case he liked to cut his grass, take the clippings away to the dump in the bags, and bring the empty bags back, when he then used them in the honey house. Most of the bags had grass clipping floating in the honey in greater or lesser amounts, some of it decaying and thus stinking. He badmouthed us for years after rejecting the honey. After all, what did we know! The best honey in the world comes from his area! (Doesn't it always!) A professionals duty is to provide a honey of widespread acceptability, at a sensible price, in order to have a viable market. Thus he cannot attain the pinnacles of finish that a showbench person will aspire to. He must however comply with legislation and have a clean hygienic set up, which does a high quality job on a high quality raw material. Not out and out showbench standard, but quite close to it. Sure, there are some so-so professionals out there who scrape by, but not many. Amateurs will give you the whole spectrum from brilliant to inedible, with impunity from the consequences. I'm not in any way against amateurs, help them when I can, and occasionally steal ideas from them too, but to imply that a professional is of necessity worse at his job than an amateur is just plain wrong. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: The FLOW is ON in coastal SC! In-Reply-To: <174.193d96ba.2bc78a7e@aol.com> From: Lionel Evans > I need to spray my woodshop, (where I build equipment and store supplies), > for spiders. What can I use that will not kill bees later? Spiders are arachnids, not insects and most insectidices aren't very effective. On the entomology list it's been mentioned that a broom or vacuum is much more effective than spraying. I don't know if it's still legal, but I do know it's highly effective (yet also highly dangerous). We used to fumigate with burning sulfur (you could actually buy it in candle form), and it would get rid of all vermin for months. One whiff of the fumes would get you also, so you had to light it quickly and get out. It also poses a fire danger if not on good fireproof burn stations, and is quite corrosive to metal. Incidently the flow ended in the Carolinas with a week of rain. We hope to be back at the bees Saturday, but may have to use a life jacket and safety rope. Sigh...such is life. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:18:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The FLOW is ON in coastal SC! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I need to spray my woodshop, (where I build equipment and store > supplies), for spiders. What can I use that will not kill bees later? Why do you 'need' to spray for spiders? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? "I have a drone layer. Probably because of mites." I doubt it has anything to do with mites. You probably don't even have a queen. Sometimes old queens become drone layers, but typically what happens is that the queen dies do to any of several reasons from Foul Brood to accidental squishing, and if the hive is unsuccessful in rearing a replacement, one or more of the workers will start laying drones. By the time you discover your hive is a drone layer, it's not easy to correct it. You can combine the workforce with another hive, but if you really want to save it, my best results are just to add a young queen with two frames of capped and uncapped brood with young bees using lots of smoke and scratching a couple frames of honey with my hive tool. Whenever I've done this, I have saved the hive. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:05:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: How can backyard beekeepers improve their honey quality? In-Reply-To: <25.372a7207.2bc79c66@aol.com> From: Kathy E Cox > I have a drone layer. Probably because of mites. Mites probably have nothing to do with it. If she was a young queen, she didn't mate with enough drones (bad weather on her flight day, or inadequate supply of drone...). If she's old, she simply ran out of sperm. If the colony is still pretty strong, give them a couple frames of worker brood with some eggs in them. They will raise a queen. If you try to introduce one, they will kill it. Alternatively you can add an established nuc in the center. Make sure the queen is on a central frame with her own bees around her for protection, and feed syrup so all will be happy, and not kill the queen. If the colony is alreay getting weak, set it on a strong colony and use as a super. You have only old bees left, nothing of any real value except for the equipment. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:05:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Producing Honey naturally In-Reply-To: From: Murray McGregor > Some of the things I have read in recent threads regarding the evils of > feeding sound very extreme. Judicious feeding is a crucial management > tool, especially in summer dearths, spring before nectar sources are > freely available, and in autumn after they have ended. I loved Murray's well thought, well written, and well exampled post. The quality of information on any Internet source is quite variable, and folks need to exercise some discernment in what they believe. I believe a good way to seriously study any beekeeping topic is to do a search of the Bee-list archives and look for responses by Murray, and others, who have proven to be well reasoned and backed by experience. It doesn't hurt to read what others say, but question the source until their expertise is proven. Opinions are cheap and readily available, but real information is gold. Some of the best voices on this list have been silenced by death, or they don't write much anymore, because the topics have been rehashed so many times. The *early* archives of this list are where you can find them.... The claim that honey isn't "pure" if there is a trace of syrup in it...grates on me. Good management will keep that down to a trace at most, but that trace doesn't bother me in the least. High fructose corn syrup is entirely produced by "natural" processes. It derives ultimately, as do the sugars in nectar, from the photosynthetic process, and is simply another way to store the energy of sunshine. The bee process HFCS in the same way as nectar, and the end result is so similar that it is quite difficult to distinguish, and takes extensive lab testing to discover. I have seen fraudulent practices (such as feeders in citrus groves during the bloom, while the bees are supposedly making orange honey). When a customer pays for honey, he should get honey. But that's a different issue. The presence of a trace of corn syrup that might get into honey from honest and normal practices of beekeeping bothers me not the least. What does bother me is the number of these purists who cannot keep their bees alive. They come looking in the spring for nucs or package bees, when a much more practical program would be to feed when the bees are hungry, keeping them alive, then feed again to get that pregnant cow nice and fat in the spring, so she'll give them a calf. You'd better believe all the guys to produce bees for sale in the spring religiously feed the bees to produce more bees. The long-term pattern: those who feed, keep on rescuing those who refuse to feed. As Murray points out, even if you don't split, bees that have a couple extra frames of brood in the spring (the result of that feed) will produce more honey in the summer. No more than tiny traces could ever get into the honey, because almost all that feeding is converted into more bees. Murray goes on to add some good common sense to the professional vs amateur debate. Again opinion and fact have gotten into conflict. I concur with him that the commercial beekeepers I have known are almost all competent and produce a high quality product. Otherwise they are only in business a short time. But hobbyists are much more variable. Some are highly competent and produce high quality. Others can only bee"keep" because they have an outside source of income to support their hobby. Some are so highly opinionated that reason does not have a chance. I have shown foulbrood on at least two occasions to hobby beekeepers who refused to believe, or do anything about it (and suffered the consequences). One thing I can state unequivacably from years of experience is that feeding the bees when they need it pays off. And syrup is far better for bees for winter feed, than *some* of the (all natural) honeys. Since the lightest honeys are also the most saleable, bees often wind up overwintering on the worst possible honeys. (I won't ask for a show of hands as to how many northern beekeepers are seeing dysentery deadouts this spring.) Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:21:32 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: open bottom boards In-Reply-To: <004001c2ffce$d016dba0$5e94fdcf@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] open bottom boards > > > Greetings, > I would have thought that the size of the openings was very important. My > feeling would be that the varroa would not readily fall through fly > screening. Most of the references to screened bottoms seem to use > 8 openings As I wrote I do not see the bottom board as a varroa treatment. The 8 openings is of course the size if you want to monitor the varroa dropdown, but then you also need to have a sticky paper underneath to keep ants and the like away from removing the Varroa before you can monitor the dropdown. In the start of my varroa fight I of course also had an eye on the varroa drop, but to do that in my set-up I had to do it exact as those with a solid bottom board. That means putting in a temporary varroa screen over a container to store the drop down in. It gave me of course some troubles because there was not much space, so I had to temporary give more space from screen to the bottom of the frames. Now where this stage of my varroa treatment is dropped I just by screen what is available in the hardware store. I do not think the size of the openings with in reasonable borders means anything to the bees. I had one hive where the rusty mesh fell of and at the time to take action for wintering this hive was in no way affected of this missing mesh. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Now with five entries for the Drone providers and a queen time table for each breeding queen. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Malathion drift impacts Comments: To: mdshepherd@xerces.org In-Reply-To: <200304101616310497.01E6A98D@spineless.xerces.org> From: Matthew Shepherd > We're looking for information about aerial spraying of malathion and the > impacts of drift. Does anyone have anything that might be relevant? Can > anyone suggest sources of information? Of course, daytime aerial spraying kills bees, the more that are outside the hives, the more are killed. I've seen the losses many times. I've also seen butterflies dying and dead after a spray. Dragonflies are conspicuous by their absense after spraying. What you won't find mentioned in the pesticide manuals is that daytime aerial spraying is usually a violation of the bee-protection directions. because bees are foraging on *something.* The pesticide police do their best to look the other way. Here is documentation of one such incident (which reflects a similar case to several others). Despite the wilful (therefore criminal) violation, the beekeeper involved has never recovered a cent for his losses. Nor has anything ever been done to mitigate native pollinator damage. http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ Some will scoff at my years of observations in this regard. I'm not a scientist, and I know it's "anecdotal," but I have also had to make a living. I hope someday to find a funding source that will enable me to equip some hives with sensors, and to do a comprehensive, documented quantification of losses. It takes more time and resources than I've had so far. I believe that honeybees, which have some aid from humans to effect some recovery, generally fare better than wild bees, who have no help, no voice to speak for them. After the Hurricane Hugo sprayings in 1989 (dibrom, but similar in effect) wild bees were conspicuously absent for several years. As one who continuously looks at a lot of flowers to see what's foraging them, I can say with assurance that it took about a decade to recover natural pollinator populations. Aerial applications over wide areas scare me. The end result will be loss of pollinators and beneficial predators/parasites, wild swings in pest populations, and ultimately famine. With all the hype about West Nile, you can probably buy stock in the pesticide companies. That will take care of you, but you can shudder for your grandchildren. As an observant layman, I assure you that I would not be so passionate about this if I had not seen it, over and over, with my own eyes. Some years ago, the University of Florida had a bibliography of effects of spraying on non-target organisms on the web. I've looked for it since but have not been able to locate it. Perhaps you can. South Carolina activist James Irwin has documentation of the ineffectiveness and health hazards of malathion spraying for mosquitoes at his web site. He told me he is working on an issue about other environmental hazards. You may wish to contact him. His site is http://nospraynews.org Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:53:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: The FLOW is ON in coastal SC! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am infested with brown recluse (may not be spelled right) and other kinds. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:41:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Producing Honey naturally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave & All, > Since the lightest honeys are also the most saleable, bees > often wind up overwintering on the worst possible honeys. (I won't > ask for a show of hands as to how many northern beekeepers are seeing > dysentery deadouts this spring.) > No dysentery here in my apiaries, but then I did not feed sugar syrup either like most who care to over-winter do in my area. In the past I have seen dysentery in my apiaries, but then I did feed sugar syrup in those years. This year was the best my bees have ever wintered. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Black Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The FLOW is ON in coastal SC! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am infested with brown recluse (may not be spelled right) and other kinds. Sprays will not kill the brown recluse. You need to put down special tack boards to kill the recluse. Many stores carry the special boards in Missouri. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:41:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: dysentery problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said; In the past I have seen dysentery in my apiaries, but then I did feed sugar syrup in those years. I have found that bees winter better with less dysentery when fed scrap granulated sugar rather than fructose but getting a supply of inexpensive granulated sugar plus the extra work of processing into syrup might not offset a small dysentery problem When bees are confined for long periods dysentery comes into play. We always wonder what might be the cause and blame many things. Stored winter stores is always suspect but there can be *many* other things which cause dysentery in bees. The hive which has had dysentery problems but which has survived the winter never seems to prosper. Have others seen the same thing? Bob Ps. Most understand the difference on the list but for new beekeepers *dysentery* and *nosema* are very different problems. Beekeeping tip: A simple way to tell the difference is to test for nosema and if no nosema then your hive *most likely* has a dysentery problem as symptoms are similar. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:59:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/04/03 05:02:05 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Just put the super under the brood chamber separated from the brood chamber by a queen excluder, and the bees who abhor a food source under the brood chamber, will remove the stores to the brood chamber. I can hear the protests of the beekeepers who are appalled at this loss of some of their crop. But think about it! >> To amplify what Tom says, this is an investment you need make only once; therehence the money is in the bank available to be used or recycled as need and season allow year after year. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:00:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Producing honey naturally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Slade writes: 'It always amuses me that in 'Beekeeping at Buckfast = Abbey' the author describes the practice he recommended of feeding heavily with X pounds = of sugar and being rewarded with X pounds of honey to harvest later'. Let's stick to facts. In 'Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey', Bro Adam said: = 'The reader will have drawn the conclusion that stimulative feeding, = apart from getting the foundations drawn in the brood chamber (all = underlining by me). That is in fact so. There was a time .many years = ago.when we considered stimulative feeding in spring desirable if not = essential. ...No feeding is done now, except when absolutely necessary = .... The feeding of sugar seems inescapable .in the climate in the British = Isles and .Europe. It is however a measure we take ..only when = absolutely compelled to do so.=20 A timely feed . will often make the difference between success and = failure or even disaster. ..in well-meaning amateurs ..sugar is likely = to be abused.' So, Bro Adam fed only when compelled by the climate, not to boost the = honey harvest.=20 Other posts have said you must feed bees in summer if they are short of = food. Of course - otherwise they die! It's an emergency! Noone has said = otherwise, including me. If bees are really short on food there will be = nothing in supers and provided supers are removed or put above the = clearing board, the emergency feed will not be stored if restricted to = say a gallon.=20 The theme is about the issue that non-essential spring feeding - in = particular, to force bees to draw out plastic foundation - runs the risk = of contaminating the honey and losing honey the reputation for purity on = which the high market value of beekeeper's honey depends. Emergency = feeding is not what we are talking about.=20 There is a link however. Why are bees starving? A total failure of = spring nectar or removing more spring honey than was truly surplus? I = leave at least one super of spring honey to provide a natural reserve = and can remember very few years (in 40) when the weather turned so bad = emergency feeding was needed. Commercial beekeepers may have to remove = spring honey to pay the bills - hobbyists should not. Commercial = beekeepers are expert enough to guard agaiinst over-feeding - hobbyists = may not have enough experience. My plea remains: Don't do anything to = bees whose consequences you cannot accurately predict.=20 Robin Dartington.=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:38:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 9 Apr 2003 to 10 Apr 2003 (#2003-101) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/04/03 05:02:05 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Last frost here in VA is April 15th. The first blooms of interest are in May. All feeders were off by March 2nd this year. In my part of Dorset in deep south UK the last frost is generally mid May but dandelion wine time is now and there is bloom everywhere including oilseed rape. We are in a spell of bright days and frosty nights. " If a beekeeper is foolish enough to put supers on that early, this might be a problem, but one adds supers JUST before the bloom, not months or weeks before. >> At a beekeepers' meeting last weekend we looked at a hive that had wintered very economically. There were masses of stores left, nectar coming in, an expanding brood nest and they were in sore need of a super in which to shift the spare stores to make room. Fortunately the beekeeper had not fed sugar last autumn so the spare stores about to be shifted into the super, which we added, are undoubtedly honey. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:54:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/04/03 05:02:05 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Dave Green And cotton honey is nice, except that it granulates quickly. >> Dave, Any idea whether it would be possible to grow cotton in the uk as a novelty? It would give those who go in for pollen checking something to scratch their heads about. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:14:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Improving honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/04/03 05:02:05 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << P.S., Chris Slade, you asked me one time what to do with cappings to get the honey out. Well, I've almost got an answer, and it is relevant to this thread. :-) >> Tim, First, there is nothing one can do to improve honey quality. One can hope only not to spoil the perfect product too much. With drained cappings, some I use to let the bees pick over for winter feed. Some I may wash for mead. Some comb including cappings I have pressed in a fruit press to get honey out but the resulting cakes of wax are so heavy that they must contain a lot of honey still. Some are sitting in buckets and plastic bags waiting for me to decide what to do with them. If I melt the wax cakes and other drained cappings I will be able to separate the wax from the honey. The resulting honey will have a raised level of HMF because of the heating. I have no way of telling by how much. If I dilute this honey with water and use to feed to bees that need it will I end up with extracted honey with raised HMF levels at the harvest? Chris PS, Tim, next time I see you I may pick your brains about siphons so be prepared. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:37:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Producing Honey naturally My northern bees survived very well this winter, too. I wish I could take credit for it, but I think our lack of a real Alaska winter had as much to do with it as anything. The bees did overwinter mostly on unnatural sugar syrup and were treated with Fumidil late last summer/early fall. Not a natural product for the bees, but winter before last I tried overwintering a hive on natural dark honey (much of it was honeydew). By midwinter the inside of that hive looked and smelled like an old uncleaned barn. Of those that did die this past season, well there is that old adage of taking your losses in the fall on hives that are less than robust. I didn't follow that and took those losses this spring. I'm hoping for a really genuine cold northern winter next year to see if I can routinely get bees through the winter here in Anchorage. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:57:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally ----- Original Message ----- From: > To amplify what Tom says, this is an investment you need make only once; > therehence the money is in the bank available to be used or recycled as need > and season allow year after year. Not sure that I agree with the logic here. It may be a one time investment in equipment, but if they eat the honey then it has to be replaced from the next year's crop. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:47:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Improving honey quality Chris Slade writes "First, there is nothing one can do to improve honey quality. One can hope only not to spoil the perfect product too much." That is a good point. People always tell me my honey is so much better that what they've had, and I say that's because I do LESS than the people who bottle the honey you buy in stores. No 140 degree or whatever heating, no microfiltering, no mixing with people who have fed their bees with sugar (I'm not mocking those who live in areas that they must); and nobody outside my family touches my bees or my honey. And as a strange note, I don't put my beehives right next to a very large garbage landfill with a hazardous waste facility. I kid you not, there is a large apiary next to the landfill in our county. What I do with cappings rather than heat them is to cram them into feeder bottles and fill the air spaces up with warm water. I've done it several times during different sorts of weather, and so far it's never fermented or anything. The bees take a few days to use the mixture, and I'm left with that sort of light, dry wax that's so easy to melt down. Regards Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:33:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Improving honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: One can wash the cappings with warm water and filter through a bag. The liquid is clean unheated syrup which can be fed back to the bees, evaporated and stored as perfectly good honey. The cappings are quite clean (another wash is probably good to get them completely clean). Use a minimum of water in the first washing and feed immediately to prevent fermentation. Best regards Donald Aitken > If I melt the wax cakes and other drained cappings I will be able to separate > the wax from the honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.471 / Virus Database: 269 - Release Date: 10/04/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:59:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally In-Reply-To: <006501c3007a$7367d2e0$9e8fbc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <006501c3007a$7367d2e0$9e8fbc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >Commercial beekeepers may have to remove spring honey to pay the bills >- hobbyists should not. Why? Over much of the UK, and especially that part where most beekeeping is (the eastern half) a super of spring honey saved for winter will be like concrete sooner or later. OSR (Canola) is the first proper crop. Best got out of the system asap. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:12:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drone layer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/04/03 05:03:08 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I have a drone layer. Probably because of mites. >> Kathy, Why do you think mites (what sort of mites) would result in a drone layer? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:05:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally In-Reply-To: <9c.300da75b.2bc8b0fd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <9c.300da75b.2bc8b0fd@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes > >To amplify what Tom says, this is an investment you need make only once; >therehence the money is in the bank available to be used or recycled as need >and season allow year after year. You've got me puzzled here Chris. Unless what you are saying is that they do not eat the honey in the saved super, then this is plainly incorrect. If they eat the 20lb or so of honey ( or however much or little) then they have to replace it with the same amount of fresh stuff. Every year. So it is an annual investment of considerable size. Nearly five years feed bill (at the current respective values of syrup and honey) per winter in fact. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:24:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: early drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote back on 3 April > Are those drones any good for mating queens by the time spring comes > around? I remember a question I asked Dr. Harry Laidlaw at Davis back in 1986. I actually have a tape of the talk he gave. I asked if it was better to have queens mate in the open in an isolated situation instead of Instrumental Insemination as only the stronger drones would mate whereas in II you just pick drones to collect semen from. There is no real way of selecting the strongest. This would be for using as breeder queens. His answer was that it didn't matter as the drone was only the vehicle to transfer the genes you wanted and it didn't matter about who was the strongest. So if the drone is in the hive during winter the only real question is, is the semen viable? If we follow Dr. Laidlaw's theme it does not matter how strong the drones are, then you only need viable semen for the queen to function satisfactorily. Trevor Weatherhead Back in Oz but I enjoyed the snow show. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OSR (Canola) is the first proper crop. Best got out of the system asap. I am setting hives on organic canola being used for seed production. I have never had experience with Canola. Any advice from the list such as? Handling of honey or hives per acre? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:53:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Producing honey naturally In-Reply-To: <02ea01c3015d$59209640$9dac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> From: Bob Harrison > OSR (Canola) is the first proper crop. Best got out of the system asap. > > I am setting hives on organic canola being used for seed production. I > have never had experience with Canola. Any advice from the list such as? > Handling of honey or hives per acre? Great for raising queens/nucs, as you have both a honeyflow and high grade pollen. Honey is pretty, but peppery tasting, which I don't care for, and it sets up in a few days. Almost impossible to extract once it sets up. I've mostly used it as feed (in the frame) for spring nucs. I would not want the bees to winter on it. Here, it is planted in the fall. The bloom is very early and is unaffected by frost. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 9 Apr 2003 to 10 Apr 2003 (#2003-101) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris and other beekeepers advice to solve honey bound problem at bee meeting: Chris said: Fortunately the beekeeper had not fed sugar last autumn so the spare stores about to be shifted into the super, which we added, are undoubtedly honey. The bottom line is to not overfeed so honey/syrup need not be moved into a super. With all due respect to my friends from across the pond if I had been standing in the crowd doing analysis of the above honey bound hive (which I see all the time in spring and have dealt with many times this spring) I would have suggested to remove frames of honey to be used for nucs ,etc.and give frames of drawn comb in its place to open up the brood nest. I believe most honey bound bees will swarm before moving a whole super of honey up in our area. Another point would be . What if the honey/syrup had been exposed to a chemical hive treatment last fall (U.S.A.) and honey/syrup was moved up into honey supers? Hmmm. I am very stingy with feed almost all the time as syrup costs effect my bottom line. I see feeding as necessary when needed to prevent starvation or as done in the Midwest to bring hives up to the required stores to winter in the Midwest which as been common for the last few years in the U.S. due to draught conditions and weak fall flows being widespread. . A quick glance into the world of larger scale U.S. beekeeping: Rationing feed is time consuming (I use a syrup tote and a pump with a gas pump handle and the operation is like pumping gas into a car). Even switching hands your hands become very sore from squeezing the handle after a couple days of feeding. Those on the list which say they do not ever use smoke or never where a veil or gloves should go with me on a long day of feeding hives in holding yards right before winter when all the bees are in the hive ( but be sure to bring your veil and gloves in case you change your mind). The feeding I am referring to is done in holding yards of several semi loads of bees. Asked of me last month: A truck driver with a calculator asked me while we were loading his flat bed semi how many bees were in each hive. I casually said those hives contained about 50,000 bees to the hive as they were solid bees in two boxes . He then asked the number of hives going on his truck . I said around 450 hives. He punched his calculator and showed me how many bees were approx. on his truck. 22,500,000. I assured the driver our bees were very well behaved and he seemed not as worried. Many stings are the order of the day even suited up when feeding in large holding yards. . Things go OK (with minimal stings) unless you get a small syrup leak or spill then the air fills with bees robbing. Weak hives can be robbed out in a matter of minutes if syrup is spilled and runs from the entrance . Careful care must be taken to not run a feeder over. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:19:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Drone layer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/12/2003 4:52:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: > Why do you think mites (what sort of mites) would result in a drone layer? > That's what it said in "Hive and the Honey Bee" and I have had bad mites. I had deformed wing virus. I have mites. Kathy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:33:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: early drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevo said: "I asked (Dr. Harry Laidlaw) if it was better to have queens mate in the open in an isolated situation instead of Instrumental Insemination as only the stronger drones would mate whereas in II you just pick drones to collect semen from." While acknowledging that the gene content of all drones of a given queen is identical, barring mutations, I still wonder if the vitality of the drone is of consequence to the vitality of the semen and if this might in turn relate in some mysterious way to the vitality and/or the fecundity of the queen. I can't think of any way this could be scientifically studied much less proven. I suppose it is something to be relegated to the purely intuitive aspect of beekeeping. There is a book which is a collection of lectures on the topic of bees by the late19th and early 20th century occult spiritualist philosopher, Rudolf Steiner. In it he talks at length about his, what he would call, scientific approach to spiritual reality. He apparently had a group of followers who were serious bee keepers, and I gather he himself was quite interested in the topic. At any rate, he seemed quite concerned, even in those early days, that instrumental insemination would prove to be the downfall of beekeeping as we know it. He even gave a time table for it's demise. I think it was supposed to have already happened, but the point was that there is a spiritual component to what goes on in nature, and that what we observe on the physical level is entirely a reflection of this underlying spiritual component. He devoted his whole life to showing people how to access this level of reality in nature through the development of intuitional insight. It was through this self acclaimed high level of development of intuition (occult knowledge) that he claimed to be able to see the fundamental error in instrumental insemination, and he encouraged his scientifically oriented followers to examine this in both intuitive and conventionally scientific ways. There are so many things that we just accept, because they provide solutions or improvements that are obvious within the view of a relatively limited aperture. We too often fail to see the big picture or even acknowledge that a picture larger than the one we see exists. As humans it is supposedly our unique ability to be conscious of ourselves in relation to the world around us, and to make conscious decisions based on abstractions of what we observe. But as beekeepers if all we see is what will or will not produce the greatest amount of honey for the least amount of effort and resources, then do we not run the risk of creating unforeseeable problems down the road? The problem with the big picture as it relates to us humans is that it is infinitely complex, and it is not possible through quantification and data analysis to see where even something as relatively simple as instrumental insemination will ultimately lead. And this is true of a number of modern beekeeping practices is it not? You can say that this practice is good and that practice is not good, but who can say what the long range effect of closed mating practices will be? Will it lead to a super bee, or will it lead to more dependence on more extreme and invasive practices, ultimately leading us to the collapse of beekeeping as we know it? Who can even say what the effect of using old tired drone semen on queens that never soar the clear blue skies has on the overall vitality of a colony of bees ? I think we will have to rely as much on intuition as science for the answers to many of these questions. Waxing philosophical Steve Noble South Whidbey Island, Washington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:33:56 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Pollinating canola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote under the heading, "Producing honey naturally" > I am setting hives on organic canola being used for seed production. I have > never had experience with Canola. Any advice from the list such as? > Handling of honey or hives per acre? I have pollinated seed canola here in Australia. The stocking rate was 3 hives per acre. Don't expect to get any honey from that sort of stocking as it is overstocking for a honey flow but great for seed production. If there is another crop flowering nearby you might get something but if it is only canola expect the bees to breed but not collect any excess honey. The hives get a little toey and you will most likely suffer unexplained queen losses. This loss of queens on canola has been discussed in the past and can be found in the archives. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Be Advised - Queen Cage Candy Issue Inspection of newly-queened splits and packages today revealed a potential problem with queen cages for commercial queens that might delay or cause problems in queen release. The "problem" was that the candy was covered with a small sheet of what looks like parchment paper (as used by bakers). The intent seems to have been to prevent the candy from softening and "melting" through the mesh on the queen cage, but what I found in 3 cases was that this paper was preventing queen release. In each case, all (or nearly all) the candy had been eaten away, but somehow, the paper had become a "one-way door" of sorts. Bees could enter the queen cage, and push the paper up out of their way on the way in, but walking towards the exit hole, both workers and the queen tended to walk ON the paper, and up to the screen at the top of the queen cage. See the diagram below: ~~~ Queen Cage Side View Cut-Away ~~~ +----------- <== Screen Top |---\ |--+ \ <== Paper |//| \ |//| \ +--+ \ \ <== Exit Hole +--+ \ <== Paper Blocking Exit Hole |//| \ +------------- <== Bottom of Queen Cage >From examination of the cages, it appears that the bees ate away all the candy both behind the hole, and to the left and right of the hole. This left a sheet of paper, weighted by the candy that was above the level of the hole and stuck to the paper. The paper apparently bent down under the weight, creating the "one-way door". The bees continued to eat the candy away, but made no attempt to eat the paper. In one case, only the paper remained, but it was still preventing the queen from exiting the cage. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 06:09:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: early drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Are those drones any good for mating queens by the time spring comes >> around? > So if the drone is in the hive during winter the only real question > is, is the semen viable? If we follow Dr. Laidlaw's theme it does > not matter how strong the drones are, then you only need viable semen > for the queen to function satisfactorily. I think the original question had top do with natural mating, not II, so there is more to the question than that one small detail. The quantity of semen, the viscosity of the seminal fluids, the ability of the drone to fly, and other much more personal matters details of his performance are an important part of the question. Do old drones need blue pills? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 07:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Rudolf Steiner "Lectures on beekeeping" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Steve & All, Steve said: There is a book which is a collection of lectures on the topic of bees by the late19th and early 20th century occult spiritualist philosopher, Rudolf Steiner. The book is called "Bees" Lectures by Rudolf Steiner translated from German by Thomas Braatz Rudolf Steiner wrote over 50 books which were published in German. Most involved biodynamic farming methods and for his trouble many call Rudolf Steiner the "father of biodynamic farming". "Nothing happens in living nature that is not in relation to the whole" was the general idea. The book is in the Nature department of book stores and the English edition is avilable now in the U.S.(copy 1998). Steve said: He even gave a time table for it's demise. I think it was supposed to have already happened, but the point was The time was approx 80 years from the date he made the prediction which was in the year 1923. The prediction was mainly about a new problem which would arise and almost totally wipe out beekeeping . Rudolf Steiners prediction: "The honeybee has been bred for profit to a point where it has become easy prey for viruses and parasitic mites that will destroy the species in approx eighty years" U.S. & British intellegence agencys used the help of Rudolf Steiner during the war years as documneted in books written about the period. One book points to the valuable information provided by Steiner a turning point in the war. I thought I would add information to Steves post as I have always been curious about Steiner after reading about Rudolf Steiner. I have read the book "Bees". Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:01:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Holst Milk Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The Holst milt test for diagnosing AFB can be found many places on the Internet. http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/MMANUAL/A_00105.htm for instance. All references refer to a 1% solution of dried skim milk, but nowhere can I find exactly what that means or how to mix a 1% solution of dried skip milk. Is that a solution of 1% dried skim milk or is it a 1% solution of reconstituted skim milk (which would be a very dilute solution). Can anyone set me straight? Aaron Morris - post morteming deadouts :-( :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:32:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lloyd spear Subject: Honey from Canola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am setting hives on organic canola being used for seed production. I > have never had experience with Canola. Any advice from the list such as? > Handling of honey or hives per acre? I think you need more information. There are several distinct types of canola. Two of the main types are spring sown (which I think you are working with) and fall sown (which I think Dave Green is familiar with). My information is that these different types have markedly different pollen/nectar characteristics. I also understand that these characteristics may vary by soil type, but I am on shaky ground here. Your best bet may be to find out exactly what 'brand' or 'type' of canola is being seeded and then try to find (perhaps through this list) those who have specific experience. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:47:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner "Lectures on beekeeping" Rudolf Steiners prediction: "The honeybee has been bred for profit to a point where it has become easy prey for viruses and parasitic mites that will destroy the species in approx eighty years" Here is a partial list of other things that have been so bred: Cows, sheep,goats, chickens, turkeys, wheat, oats, rice, potatoes, corn............Well, just open your frige and cupboards to finish the list. Sound's like someone's basic paradigm was out of whack. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:06:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Be Advised - Queen Cage Candy Issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > been eaten away, but somehow, the paper had become > a "one-way door" of sorts. Bees could enter the > queen cage, and push the paper up out of their > way on the way in, but walking towards the exit hole, > both workers and the queen tended to walk ON the paper, > and up to the screen at the top of the queen cage. ... and thus was invented -- for the second time, and a century later -- the Porter bee escape. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Today's bonus feature: Poor man's bee gloves :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 16:32:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joanna Subject: Dadant hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi , My friend has a Dadant Commercial hive and was wondering if anyone knows that apart from a swarm how they may transfer the bees from a national to the dadant. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner "Lectures on beekeeping" > There is a book which is a collection of lectures on the topic > of bees by the late 19th and early 20th century occult spiritualist > philosopher, Rudolf Steiner. The book is called "Bees" > Lectures by Rudolf Steiner > Rudolf Steiners prediction: > "The honeybee has been bred for profit to a point where it has become > easy prey for viruses and parasitic mites that will destroy the species > in approx eighty years..." I have read this book. It was given to me by a friend who found it in a used bookstore, and (I guess) thought it was a "beekeeping book" from the title alone. I think I laughed the hardest when he started comparing quartz crystals to side cross-sections of brood cells, implying that bees were harnessing the "power of the crystal" rather than just building an efficient and strong storage system using minimum materials. In fact, Steiner was one of the inspirations for this: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/ and specifically, this: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/badvibe.html Mr. Steiner expresses a view of agriculture that simply cannot be described using English. The closest I can come is the German term "schadenfreude" (a perverse enjoyment of the misfortunes of others). I did not place this book on a shelf with beekeeping books. I was torn between putting it with books on UFOs, ESP, astral projection, mental telepathy, clairvoyance, telekinesis, the Loch Ness monster, spirit photography, and the theory of Atlantis, or putting it near other whining diatribes by pseudo-intellectual Luddites (the "Artificial Intelligentsia") about how man has forsaken "nature" by daring to progress beyond some sort of agrarian fantasy that never really existed. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:53:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 11 Apr 2003 to 12 Apr 2003 (#2003-103) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/04/03 05:01:29 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << To amplify what Tom says, this is an investment you need make only once; >therehence the money is in the bank available to be used or recycled as need >and season allow year after year. You've got me puzzled here Chris. >> Murray, To explain by oversimplification, if you rob your bees blind you have to feed them and if this is your habit you have to do it every year. If you leave them with a generous quantity of honey you don't have to feed them. They will use some of it and the surplus will be moved around the hive in the spring as the season and their needs dictate. They will add to what the surplus during the year and you harvest the quantity over and above the 'banked' amount which you leave them again for the following winter. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:48:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Weak colony In-Reply-To: <035101c301b7$16b1cd60$9dac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: I am a new beekeeper(<1 year, 4 hives) in north San Diego county, CA, USA. The hives are located throughout our small avocado grove, separated by a few hundred feet. My first hive recently absconded a week or two following stumping of 40 avocado trees under which the hive was located. When I inspected the hive, I noticed about 5% or so of the brood area had dead bees remaining in their cells with most of the capping removed so you could see the bee's heads. I also noticed ant activity (the ubiquitous small red ants common to our area). There was not a single live bee remaining in the hive!! The colony had a very small population in the weeks preceeding their disappearance. My second hive has a very small population although brood and queen are present. I notice the same scattering of dead, un-emerged bees and I also notice a number of bees with wings appearing to be shredded or chewed to the point where they would seem incapable of flight. My youngest hive appears very robust, currently filling two full size brood boxes with a third recently added. I've been advised to treat for disease only when necessary, so I've not treated for anything so far. Can anyone tell me what might be the cause of the absconding, weak populations, scattering of dead, unemerged bees and damaged wings? Could the ants have been the cause of the absconding? Thanks for any help you can give me. Bill Meister Bill@TheMeisterCompany.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:52:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Weak colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/13/2003 3:46:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, BMeister@ABAC.COM writes: > Can anyone tell me what might be the cause of the absconding, weak > populations, scattering of dead, unemerged bees and damaged wings? Could > the > ants have been the cause of the absconding? Bees abscond when they get disturbed. They probably wanted to find a new home because of the activity around the old one. A friend had a hive abscond when a huge yellow jacket nest near by came alive. The damaged wing is Deformed Wing Virus. Have you done a check to see what the population of varroa mites is? Usually when the bees get this, it is because there are lots of mites and the mites spread it. As for the dead bees in cells, you may have had a small colony and they might not have had enough nurse bees or worker bees to cover the brood to keep it warm? To get rid of the mite....You can use a screened bottom board and some of the mites fall out. You can put a sticky board (as simple as a sheet of parchment paper sprayed with pam) and trap the fallen mites and pull them out. (oh, yeah, the mites are raised in drone brood) You can put a frame of drone foundation in and let the queen lay it and then pull it out after all the cells are capped and freeze it to kill the brood and the mites. You can take a nylon stocking and fill it with powdered sugar and shake it over the bees and the comb and it acts like powder to make the mites fall off. You can give the bees a sugar/shortening/honey mixture and this will help with both types of mites. I don't know how much you have studied all of the bee facts, but this would be what I would do and I'm a beginner, too. May will be my one yr. anniversary. (10 hives) I also don't know if you use chemicals on your hives. I don't, so I won't tell you how to do that, I'll let someone who uses them tell you. Now, I would further, take a frame of mostly capped brood from your good hive and give it a light shake and then take it and spray it and the bees with sugar water, and put it in the bad hive. This will immediately give your hive a burst of new bees that will be foragers in a few weeks and will be house/nurse bees to cover the brood and keep up the temperature. I like the area you are from! Just was there last week. I'm in northern Cali. Saw a swarm on a post with a water faucet on it on my way down there, while at a rest stop. Have you had any problem with African bees? Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:17:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Weak colony In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:48 AM 4/13/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me what might be the cause of the absconding, weak >populations, scattering of dead, unemerged bees and damaged wings? Could the >ants have been the cause of the absconding? Sounds like varroa mites. Deformed wings (caused by a virus carried by the mites) are a pretty good indication. A heavily infested hive often dwindles quickly to nothing as bees die off. I doubt they absconded. Have you done any mite treatments? Have you tested for mites? (Sugar roll, mite drop). If heavily infested your second hive may be too far gone already to save. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Weak colony I'm about 3 hours north of you, and you've got mites, big time. Cutting down Avocado trees has nothing to do with bees taking off. The wing problems are the first thing you look for around here when it comes to mite infestation. If your kid steps on a rusty nail, you get a tetanus shot. If your hives have Varroa mites, you treat. PM me if you want/ Tim Vaughan tvaughan@charter.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:59:18 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dadant hives > apart from a swarm how they may transfer the bees from > a national [UK hive type] to the Dadant [USA hive type]. Well, the difference in exterior dimensions is: National Dadant Dadant-Metric -------- ------- ------------- Length 460 mm 19 7/8" (504.825 mm) Width 460 mm 16 1/4" (412.75 mm) Height 225 mm 9 5/8" (244.475 mm) Which is pretty close. So, I'd guess that one could: a) Shake bees from the first National comb. b) Cut the comb from the National frame using a Dadant frame as a template, insert into the Dadant frame, and slide 2 or 3 tight loops of string over the entire frame to hold the comb within the frame for the bees to attach to the new frame. c) Shake bees from additional National Frames into the Dadant hive, and keep cutting comb and placing it into the new frames. The bees will soon attach the comb to the new frames, and will do a surprising job of making a mechanically strong bond (if and only if your strings are tight enough to hold the comb in good alignment) between comb and frame. ...but I have not tried this, so a comparison of frame sizes may be a good idea to get a better idea of exactly where to cut. I have made some very rough-looking cuts with a bread knife from "wild" colonies that needed removing from houses and barns and tied them haphazardly into frames, and I have been impressed at the speed and quality of the bees "repair work". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:44:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 11 Apr 2003 to 12 Apr 2003 (#2003-103) Chris said: >>> To amplify what Tom says, this is an investment you need make only once; >>> therehence the money is in the bank available to be used or recycled as >>> need and season allow year after year. Murray said: >> You've got me puzzled here Chris. and Chris further said: > To explain by oversimplification, if you rob your bees blind you have > to feed them and if this is your habit you have to do it every year. OK, more honey harvested at about $2.00 US a pound in exchange for a need to feed an equal amount of sugar or HFCS at about $0.25 US a pound, both feeds having a lower risk of causing dysentery than honey. Sounds like a good deal for me and my bees! Since sugar and HFCS have always been cheaper than honey, it should be a "good deal" every year. > If you leave them with a generous quantity of honey you don't have to feed > them. They will use some of it and the surplus will be moved around the > hive in the spring as the season and their needs dictate. And honey that was exposed to miticide treatments in late fall is thus mixed in with the spring crop. Yummy! :) > They will add to what the surplus during the year and you harvest the > quantity over and above the 'banked' amount which you leave them again > for the following winter. This is an new and highly speculative branch of mathematics to which I have hitherto not been exposed. I'm not sure exactly what would happen if I plugged in actual numbers (for example leaving 100 lbs of honey on a hive that would usually require on 40 lbs to overwinter) into the statement, but I am unable to reduce the statement made to an equation, which means that I am just as puzzled as Murray was. Let's be crystal clear on one point - the food consumed over winter is not an "investment". It is an expense. If we could predict the entire winter's weather perfectly, we could leave some exact amount of stores on a hive, exactly the amount required to have a strong colony in spring. Since we can't predict the weather, we have to guess. Even then, some colonies will consume more honey than others for no apparent reason, even when all factors (population, location, etc) are equal. Since any specific guess could be wrong for any specific colony, some of us admit that our guesses are nothing more than mere guesses, and will choose to inspect and feed "light colonies" as required. There is no way around this problem, other than the leaving of excessive and wasteful amounts of stores on a hive, which carry the risk of contaminating the spring crop. So, we are, in essence, given the choice between a risk of "contaminating" the spring crop with: a) Feed (sugar or HFCS) b) Miticide-tainted stores Note that risks of contamination only accompany overfeeding, something the astute beekeeper would be well advised to avoid. You pays your money, and you takes your chances. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Re: Weak colony In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030413201237.029ce260@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim Arheit At 5:18 PM on 04/13/03 you wrote: "Have you done any mite treatments? Have you tested for mites? (Sugar roll, mite drop). If heavily infested your second hive may be too far gone already to save." No I've never treated for mites. At this point, I'm afraid there aren't enough bees remaining to be able to afford an ether roll test. I will try a mite drop test, but the comments posted here seem mighty convincing that it's time to treat. Thanks to all for your helpful comments. Thanks Bill@TheMeisterCompany.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 00:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Apistan in Spring Hello Allen... In regard to the Apistan treatment methodology that you mention, is that one strip of Apistan per 5 frames of bees(as per instructions), or one strip per hive (2 brood boxes with variable bee populations)? Where do you position strip and for how long (ie. is the treatment period the same as for a regular Apistan application)? Have you abandoned Formic, or do you intend to use Formic treatments in the fall, in an effort to reduce tolerance levels to Apistan? Cheers, Mark Walker. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:06:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dadant hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joanna & all As the British National has smaller frames than the Dadant, it is possible to strap the frames to temporary top bars (using wire) so that the National frames will hang in the Dadant box alongside Dadant frames. You will get a certain amount of burr comb formed in the spaces, but this can be cleaned off at a later date as you work the National frames to one side and then gradually remove them as they become empty. The brace comb can be further reduced by strapping strips of wood to the side bars of the National frames to make them of similar size to the Dadant ones. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:45:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apistan in Spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Place two strips of Apistan in the brood box between frames 2 & 3 and 7 & 8 for a period of 42 days. Remove before you put your honey shallows on. Norm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: South Carolina Report: Swarmy ....Swarmy now here in SC. We are about a week behind, after a week of rain, but not too many hives yet to go, with a great forecast for the rest of the week. If we have superhuman strength we can finish making nucs this week. Saw five swarms yesterday, one humungous, but too high for me.... We caught a couple low ones. If we don't finish dividing soon, they'll do it first. In my early days, when I only had about fifty hives. I miscalculated and thought swarm control could be done later. On March 22, I went into my largest bee yard and half of them were in the trees. I learned then that swarm control does not start with the beginning of swarm season. I'm pleased with our swarm control program, which held them quite well, until we had a week of rain. In early March we reversed boxes on everything that had any strength, and added an empty box above. We've watched them closely, never letting them plug up (until this week) and as soon as a flow got going in each yard, we split them. With the shortage of bees, there's no problem marketing the splits. I simply cannot understand why many beekeepers fight their bees for several weeks each year to prevent them from doing what they want to do - reproduce. And it usually is a losing battle. Cutting out cells is a total waste. Continuously reversing bodies will delay them but not stop them. The queens are indelibly programed to swarm in their second year. There are only two ways I know that are consistantly reliable. One is to split the hives. The other is to remove the old queen, before they think of swarming themselves, and give them a cell or new queen. The latter is useless, once they have their own cells. Cutting cells will keep the bees demoralized, and inevitably one (usually puny) cell will be missed, leading to swarming. Once there are swarm cells, it is time to bow to the inevitable and split them. This is easy, compared to the other result. Climbing, chasing, placating upset neighbors....and still more times than not, losing valuable livestock. George Imirie, can I echo you? Beekeepers who allow their bees to swarm are really just bee-havers. A good beekeeper will occasionally lose a swarm. But 90% or more can be dealt with (profitably) by beekeepers who keep on schedule and practive good bee-keeping. There is no excuse for allowing your bees to all blow off and head for the woods...or your neighbor's house. Gotta go now. - A few hives yet to work..... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Is She Really a Virgin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beefolks: I captured my first swarm of this season today, a small secondary swarm that covers only two ottn’ pickn’ frames. [Sometimes I wonder if my collecting swarm is worth the trouble, after all] The cluster was located at about twenty feet up on a limb, the virgin queen, as usual playing hard to get; the bees kept inching up higher in each retrieval process. Setting up a ladder on my truck bed, I was able to capture the swarm inside this five-frame, cardboard-nuc-box-swarm-trap I had bought from a dealer, repeating, after each retrieval, the process of squirting water as much as the cluster would hold to flop it down into a bucket. However, once I got the queen and the bees inside that cardboard box, they soon moved back out onto the same limb probably because the small five- frame box I had placed in the shade got heated up too quickly despite its wire-mesh vent holes on both ends, or they thought it was too small for their liking, or Feng Shui, or because I was wearing a pair of shorts and wrong underwear, or the occult mumbo jumbo—-although inside the box I had four foundation and one drawn comb. Or they were just trying to teach me the Murphy’s Law. Two days ago, a home-owner frantically called me to report numerous bees flying about her house: this must have been the primary swarm taking off although she was not aware. It could have been a good-size swarm, the fish that got away, considering that her front-yard tree colony has allegedly lived there far longer than a decade. Since she *insisted* that the bees had not left yet, I left a full-size bait box in her backyard, against my better judgment. Later when they took off back to the same limb, I had to do it all over again: dousing and flopping. I had to repeat this process at least three times until I got about two thirds of the initial cluster before the automatic-retrieval machinery took off as more number of bees frantically fanned their tails [Nasanov] off at the entrance. The stronger the pheromone, the quicker the action, obviously. [The bees would not come down as if they had, as they wont to, another queen in the half cluster remaining on the limb when only a handful of them fanned] But I was not about to give up. Standing on the six-foot ladder, set up atop on the pick-up bed, I worried I could, if I faltered—-the bucket and the broom stick and all—-easily break my neck or back for this worthless number. Since this swarm was the first of the season, I persevered and captured it, brought it home, put in a brand new deep, and gave a gallon of syrup; instantly, they were busy bubbling up the jar. Given the trouble the virgin queen had given me, I put down a queen excluder under the BC above the bottom just in case; however, I wondered, if she is really a virgin, she needs too get out to do the deed, and the archival consensus is that *probably* a virgin queen could get through the QE. Questions: Do you have any experience of losing a secondary or later swarms in spite of your placing a QE under the BC? It is well-documented that a virgin queen is just that, a virgin queen. Is this true in all cases? If she is newly minted and unmated and slim and beautifully anorexic, could she not go through the QE with no trouble at all as we sometimes observe? This last point seems to question the very practice we do—-the QE under the BC—-especially for the secondary or later swarms. If I leave the QE on, could she still be able to climb back up after mating? I do understand that the size of her ovary will NOT get any bigger after mating, however. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: workerbee@HONEYROAD.COM Organization: http://www.honeyroad.com Subject: Candle making/Insurance Coverage MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, I was wondering if anyone of you have found an alternative for the candle making part of your business. It was brought to our attention that the goup liability insurnace we have through the Ontario Beekeepers Association only cover products from the hive. Because we "modify" the wax into candles, they are not covered under it. I have contacted several insurance companies, and they either laugh at the tought of such insuarance or give me an outrageous price? Has any one found a cost effective alternative? Or more importantly, did you realise you might not be covered incase of an avccident happening with candles, read the fine print in your insurance policy? It seem a shame I'll have to give up making candles from my beeswax, all because I cant get affordable insurance. Allen Banks Honey Road Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:07:34 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Spring formic treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone here have experience and/or knowledge about treatment with formic acid in the spring? -Is it any good? -When should it be done? -Acid concentration? -Application methods? -Required temperature? -Drawbacks? -Risk of contaminated honey if done well before (two weeks) flow starts /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:29:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Apistan in Spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In regard to the Apistan treatment methodology that you mention, is > that one strip of Apistan per 5 frames of bees(as per instructions), > or one strip per hive (2 brood boxes with variable bee populations)? > Where do you position strip We use one strip in the centre of the cluster, which is visible at the top of the top box. We do not cut down strips for small clusters, or use more for large clusters. "Frames of bees' is an almost meaningless 'measurement'. The number of frames apparently occupied by a given number of bees is highly variable, depending on season, ambient temperatures, presence and amount of brood, time of day, queen condition, spacing of brood frames, amount of feed left, breed of bee, disturbance, disease, mite irritation, sunshine, flow or no flow, etc. etc. >From what we have heard, the maximum number used, in the largest of hives is four in the Fall, so, knowing that we have much reduced populations, we assume that one strip is appropriate for the largest, and there are no recommendations to use less than one strip. > and for how long (ie. is the treatment > period the same as for a regular Apistan application)? This *is* a regular Apistan application. Why would we depart from the label? We try for the 42 days, as closely as practical. > Have you abandoned Formic, or do you intend to use Formic treatments > in the fall, in an effort to reduce tolerance levels to Apistan? We have never used formic for varroa. By all accounts, it is highly variable in its efficacy. We have used it on tracheal and hoped for 'collateral damage' against the varroa populations, however. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com Today: My Swinger trailer pictures :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? In-Reply-To: <200304141233.h3ECOOD5012214@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:33 AM 4/14/03 -0400, you wrote: >Questions: Do you have any experience of losing a secondary or later >swarms in spite of your placing a QE under the BC? She might have slipped though (or used another entrance). Though, queen excluders are not a swarm control (and cause problems with drones when used in that fashion). The swarm may leave anyways (without the queen) and they may or may not return to the hive. Neither is clipping the queen. She may crawl away, fly short distances, and simply get lost. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Weak colony In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:03 PM 4/13/03 -0700, you wrote: >No I've never treated for mites. At this point, I'm afraid there aren't >enough bees remaining to be able to afford an ether roll test. I will try a >mite drop test, but the comments posted here seem mighty convincing that >it's time to treat. You can always use a sugar roll. It's performed much the way a ether roll test is, though using about a tablespoon of powdered sugar, and doesn't harm the bees. Though if the hive is already that weak, I doubt any treatment could save it at this point. But do check and treat your other hives as soon as possible. When one hive in an apiary is heavily infested, it's quite likely the others are affected as well. It's my understanding that some big operators even go so far as testing a sample (several hives) from each apiary, then treat the whole apiary based on the results. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:29:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoon: I find that if you put a frame of partially sealed brood in the box, the swarm is attracted to it and will often walk right in. Best regards Donald Aitken ... However, once I got the queen and the bees inside that cardboard box, they soon moved back out onto the same limb... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.471 / Virus Database: 269 - Release Date: 10/04/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:33:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: More info on Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was sent a couple of scientific papers on Oxalic treatment. One was on the stability of Oxalic acid solutions over time. Keep it cool and it will last but heat caused HMF concentrations to increase, which is bad for bees. Personally, it is easy to make up, so I see no real reason to keep it around in solution. The second confirmed Oxalic acid is an excellent Varroa control, in the area of 97-99% (even the drip treatment) but only when the colony is broodless. It is only in the 70s when brood is present. Sort of obvious, but a lot of science is in confirming the obvious, since there are exceptions. The nice thing is it can be applied in cold weather (down to freezing!) so no problem applying when the colony is broodless (when it is usually in the 50-40F range). The third, and most interesting, is that Oxalic Acid treatment does not increase the natural level of the acid, while Formic doubles or quadruples its concentration in honey, sometimes to the point of being able to taste it. Both Oxalic and Formic Acid are in honey naturally, but Oxalic Acid levels did not increase at all after treatment, but Formic did in every case. So it Oxalic Acid treatment is undetectable in honey while Formic is. Plus, if you do not use the proper concentrations (too much kills, so more is not better) it still does not show up in honey but will either be ineffective (too little), or kill off your bees (too much). Sort of takes care of the morally challenged beekeepers who overdose their bees on fluvalinate and cumophose. Almost Darwinian. When you consider the ease of treatment, its effectiveness, the lack of residue, it seems to be an excellent alternative control for Varroa. Plus, it is cheap and widely available. Only trouble, it is not permitted/licensed in the US (but is in Europe). I used it last fall and had no problems. Bees came out fine and are flying today, working crocus. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:49:48 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dave Green wrote: >....Swarmy now here in SC. We are about a week behind, after a week >of rain, but not too many hives yet to go, with a great forecast for >the rest of the week... > Ditto in the upper piedmont. A rainy week in the 40's and low 50's put a stop to splitting. Even had some splits swarm after being cooped up for a week with multiple queen cells hatching: I'm finding the Russians are very tolerant of other queens (good idea in Siberia, I guess), so each virgin took her own swarm. Caught most fortunately. Plus several excellent queens I crowded a little on purpose (and then couldn't split on time due to weather) swarmed. Oh jpy. the queens were clipped and I was cruising the beeyard and I just picked up the old queen and a few Nasanov fanners and watched them pour in the new hive. It's great when it works! At least I'll get some comb drawn! Let's hope the drought doesn't return in July and that we get some fair weather until then! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:32:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Swarms are not virgin queens, unless you count a hundred drones a swarm. Your problem is that the area that the swarm was at has a queen scent. You have to cut this down and put it into a hive box. At dark the bees will be in the box with the scent. If the limb is too big to cut soap in a spray bottle and douse it heavy. If you have a used queen cell and no tree limb put that in the box and leave till dark. The bees on the box near the entrance will put scent into the air if you blow air on them. Once you get five or ten fanning to cover bad breath you can stop. You can herd the bees by blowing on them in the direction you want they to go. I always put honey on the frames that are not drawn for the new swarms. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Housel wrote: > Swarms are not virgin queens, unless you count a hundred drones a >swarm. > Mike - there are instances of afterswarms being headed by virgin queens, and in some instances there cen be 1, 2, 3, 4 after swarms. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:08:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tony Bloor Subject: Re: Dadant hives In-Reply-To: <001b01c301d1$d540eb20$357b7ad5@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I found myself in a similar situation when I wanted to change from Nationals to Modified Commercials and wasn't too keen on cutting combs and fixing them to new frames. Fortunately for me the only major difference in the external dimensions of the two brood chambers was the increased height of the Commercials. I found a couple of articles in a booklet called Beekeeping in a Nutshell, Manipulations by Matthew Allan (I think it's available through the British Beekeepers Association), which worked for me:- The two relevant chapters were "Getting Bees into New Brood Boxes" and "Changing to a different type of brood box". If you want a word for word copy of the text I will gladly mail it to you directly, however the abbreviated version is: a) Put the new Dadant brood box on top of the old National brood box, as the boxes are of differing dimensions you will need to block the gaps (I did something similar with a Nuc on top of a Commercial brood chamber by using a thin sheet of Plywood, cutting a large square hole(slightly smaller than the Nuc) in the middle of it to allow the bees access to the two chambers). b) Let the bees work up into the Dadant top box. If this is filled with foundation, syrup feeds will speed up the process of comb building. c) When the queen is laying in the Dadant top box then the queen has to be found, a queen excluder inserted between the two boxes and the queen put for sure in the top box. d) 24 days later, all the brood in the National bottom box will have emerged. There is unlikely to be much honey left in the frames, so the National and excluder can be removed, leaving the colony in the new frames in the Dadant box. Good luck whichever method you choose. Regards Tony Bloor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:29:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Dadant hives ---- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Bloor" To: Sent: 14 April 2003 21:08 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Dadant hives > c) When the queen is laying in the Dadant top box then the queen has to > be found, a queen excluder inserted between the two boxes and the queen > put for sure in the top box. Tony Not necessarily - you could simply shake all the bees in the National box into the Dadant - then (just to be sure) check for eggs 4 days later. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:49:40 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Early drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,=20 This is incorrect. The semen from individual drones is identical, but = the individual drones have genetic differences between them. Look up = meiosis and cross-over in a book on bee genetics for a full = explaination. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:27:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey -bound hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/04/03 05:03:06 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << With all due respect to my friends from across the pond if I had been standing in the crowd doing analysis of the above honey bound hive (which I see all the time in spring and have dealt with many times this spring) I would have suggested to remove frames of honey to be used for nucs ,etc.and give frames of drawn comb in its place to open up the brood nest. I believe most honey bound bees will swarm before moving a whole super of honey up in our area. Another point would be . What if the honey/syrup had been exposed to a chemical hive treatment last fall (U.S.A.) and honey/syrup was moved up into honey supers? Hmmm. >> Yes, Bob, it would have been better to do as you suggest but, as a beginner she had no drawn comb available. I was elsewhere in the garden when the extra box was put on so I didn't see exactly how they did it, but I think they bruised some of the cappings to encourage uncapping and redistribution. There had been no chemical treatment in the autumn but there was no sign of mites. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Orozco Subject: Looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello: Does anybody know the adress of the Buckfast queenbreders of = Luxenburg? will you please send it to me ? Thanks a lot Rossy Castillo rossybee@ctcinternet.cl=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy In-Reply-To: <3E9A68AE.22589.14C6E266@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >....Swarmy now here in SC. > Saw five swarms yesterday > > our swarm control program In early March we reversed boxes >on everything that had any strength, >and added an empty box above. > never letting them plug up >(until this >week) > >Dave Green Dave, could you have added two supers above? Might keep the broodnest open, and help with swarming. Mike > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:10:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Early Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/04/03 05:03:06 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << While acknowledging that the gene content of all drones of a given queen is identical, barring mutations, I still wonder if the vitality of the drone >> As I understand it, while each sperm from an individual drone, being haploid, will be identical the drones themselves, having been produced from a diploid queen, multiply mated usually, will differ one from another. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:45:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Nelson Subject: Honey Density MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm presently getting ready to build a storage tank for my honey and = would like to know the density of honey so that I can build it to hold a = certain number of barrels. It would be helpful if someone knew it in = either lbs/gal, kg/l or l/tonne. Thanks in advance. Dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? In-Reply-To: <200304141233.h3ECOOD5012214@listserv.albany.edu> From: Yoonytoons > Later when they took off back to the same limb, I had to do it all over > again: dousing and flopping. Sounds like you were trying to do it in the daytime. It's much more reliable if you do it at dusk. Swarms that are "nervous" (obviously very active) probably have already chosen a spot, and it's pretty hard to get them to stay, no matter what you do. Hiving at dusk, with a frame of brood, gives the best results, though. If they stay overnight, they'll usually be yours. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030414170242.0248e250@localhost> Date sent: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:07:52 -0400 Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: [BEE-L] South Carolina Report: Swarmy To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Dave, could you have added two supers above? Might keep the broodnest > open, and help with swarming. In some cases we did add two deep supers, where they filled the first one quickly. But sometimes they appear to fill the added ones, and they are just moving up and abandoning the bottom box. So you have to check. In a few cases we reversed them again. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Is She Really a Virgin? In-Reply-To: <26.37ef6cb2.2bcc58db@aol.com> From: Michael Housel > Swarms are not virgin queens, unless you count a hundred drones a > swarm. Ahem....afterswarms usually do have a virgin queen. Oftentimes prime swarms have one or more VQ as well. I hived a swarm once that had three mated queens, and, if I recall correctly 18 virgins. I'm sure it was a merged swarm from three different hives. Your problem is that the area that the swarm was at has a queen > scent. You have to cut this down and put it into a hive box. At dark the > bees will be in the box with the scent. If the limb is too big to cut > soap in a spray bottle and douse it heavy. If you have a used queen cell > and no tree limb put that in the box and leave till dark. Soapy water will kill the bees. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:41:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Early drones Well! It's starting to get technical!. As I understand it, a drone is a clone of the queen. She lays an unfertilized egg, which is the product of mysosis. I may be confused, but this would mean that the division of the chromosomes would not always be identical, which means that the drones aren't techinically clones, unless the eggs are produced parthenocarpically. If they are produced parthenocarpically, they are clones. Well, let's wait for the smart people to chime in, but this is BEE- L at it's best! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:49:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Honey Density Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Dave, 1 U.S. drum = 55 u.s. gal. = 208.2 liters = 295.2 Kg = 650.8 lb or 1 Imp. drum = 45 imp. gal. = 204.6 liters = 290.1 Kg = 639.5 lb of honey at 17.4 % humidity and 20 deg.C. or 68 deg. F. or a 1000 liter tank will hold 3126.3 lbs (1418 kg)of honey. If you need more detail, just write me an e-mail. Bye Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec, Canada >From: Dave Nelson >Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: [BEE-L] Honey Density >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:45:50 -0600 > >I'm presently getting ready to build a storage tank for my honey and would >like to know the density of honey so that I can build it to hold a certain >number of barrels. It would be helpful if someone knew it in either >lbs/gal, kg/l or l/tonne. > >Thanks in advance. > >Dave > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis ! http://messenger.fr.msn.ca/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::