From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:27:08 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EAC74905B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeO011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0304C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 253956 Lines: 5643 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:31:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey Density MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Under normal circumstances, honey weighs slightly less than 12 pounds per gallon.. Most suppliers put 60 pounds in a 5 gallon bucket. Hope this helps. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:46:12 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Early Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While going around checking hives yesterday I found one that had a few drones flying. I popped 3 of them and found them all having a good load of semen. They were not young boys, I would guess at least a couple months old, but probably wintered over. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:53:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey Density MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a 1000 liter tank will hold 3126.3 lbs (1418 kg)of honey. That corresponds to what I remember. Basically, honey is about 1.4 times the density of water, or around 14 lbs per Imperial gallon. FWIW, I did a quick archive search for honey density and got http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=density+honey&s=&f =&a=&b= http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9605D&L=bee-l&P=R1937 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9708D&L=bee-l&P=R916 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:42:35 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Early Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim, Just to keep it simple so that all can understand. Each drone is the son = of the mother queen, he has no father (sire) but he does have a = grandfather (grandsire). No two drones are genetically identical, but = the spermatozoa produced by a drone are all genetically identical. This = is why it is important in bee breeding to have inbred queens for the = production of drones. Hope this makes things easier for you to = understand. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:27:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: thone Organization: Alcatel Telecom Subject: Re: Looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rossy Castillo Orozco wrote: > > ...the adress of the Buckfast queenbreders of Luxenburg? > Take a look at : http://www.apisjungels.lu/ cheers, Hugo (half a bee) -- Hugo Thone do bee do bee do ... email : hugo.thone@alcatel.be (\ phone : +32-(0)3-240.94.52 {|||8- fax : +32-(0)3-240.99.49 (/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:57:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Weak hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 April Tim Arheit wrote:...."some big operators even go so far as = testing a sample (several hives) from each apiary [for mites], then treat the whole apiary based on the results". This is the sort of commercial practice that leads to excessive use of = chemicals and accelerates development of resistance to miticides. Varooa = infestation within an apiary is very variable indeed - due to robbing of = weakened colonies and following back. Nowadays every hive needs a = screen floor for individual monitoring, so you catch the just the ones = needing treatment early. Otherwise you can miss the big one until too = late to avoid the mites spreading. Every Long Deep Hive has a permanent = floor of mesh. =20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:17:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 April, Bill Truesdell wrote: "I was sent a couple of scientific = papers on Oxalic treatment". Interesting as apparenly no effect on honey quality even if misused - = can we have references to the papers so we can look them up? =20 UK government publication 'Managing Varooa' , 2000, lists oxalic as = unauthorised but says 90% efficacy is possible , best in broodless = conditions, more scientific trials needed. Time to press the UK = National Bee Unit? Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:30:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: South Carolina report: swarmy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 April, Dave Green wrote: "There are only two ways I know that are = consistantly reliable [for control of swarming]. One is to split the hives. The other is to remove the old queen, before they = think of swarming themselves, and give them a cell or new queen". "Once = there are swarm cells, it is time to bow to the inevitable and split = them."=20 Dave has it spot on. The problem for hobbyists that splitting can mean = bringing up spare boxes and roofs, or heavy lifting if the old brood is = put on top of the new box. I doubt any hobbyist keeps 20 spare sets for = 20 hives, but swaming can come all at once. The Long Deep hive enables = spitting to be done merely by rearranging the brood frames (up to 21) so = the queen and broodless swarm are at one end and the parent nest is at = the other. Division is acheived by sliding in a vertical board the size = of a brood frame and that is the only extra equipment needed. When a new = queen is mated, she takes over and the clony does not swarm again that = season. The heaviest lift involved is a half-sized super, 16 pounds. = Brief details available by e-mail if anyone is interested.=20 Robin Dartington =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:00:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Progressive beekeeping, informed by science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Commenting on the 'producing pure honey' theme, on 11 April Yoon wrote = :' the overall point in your post is that we go back to primitive, = prior-to-industrialisation beekeeping practice'. No, not at all. Quite = the opposite - I want beekeeping to advance steadily as our = understanding of bee-life grows.=20 The total misunderstanding was puzzling until I found Microsoft = thesaurus defines 'natural' as: unaffected; artless; unconstrained; = impulsive; childlike. Readers Digest Illustrated Dictionary (as = published in USA) gives 10 usages, of which 'primitive' comes only 9th. = The primary usage is 'present in or produced by nature, not artificial = or man-made', as in 'natural science' which is how the word is used in = UK,. So once again we are two nations divided by a common language and I = apologise for confusing an international readership. Let's use = 'progressive' rather than 'natural'.=20 The influences underlying the 'progressive beekeeping' approach that I = lecture on in UK (termed 'New Beekeeping') - and which guide my = contributions to Bee-L - are: Huber; Langstroth; Von Frisch; Butler; = Free; Ribbands; Mark Winston and Seeley. Abstracts of beekeeping = articles from IBRA help to fill in the last decade. So let's be clear - = what I am urging is that hobbyists stick to ways of managing bees that = derive from scientific investigation into what it is natural for bees to = do, rather than force artificial conditions on bees even if experienced = beekeepers say that you get more honey by doing so.=20 Let me say again that there is an economic reason as well as a moral = principle - hobbyists who produce honey by methods that guarantee purity = can get a 30% to 50% higher price for the small quantity they produce = than some professional beekeepers get for their much larger crops. This = is because 'guaranteed pure' local honey, carrying the producers name on = every jar, finds a market with the health-conscious who care about what = they eat and mistrust anonymous blended brands identified only by the = packer's label. Last year, all UK supermarket 'own brands' had to be = dumped in landfill after antibiotics were found in the Chinese honey = blended in. People want to see where the honey comes from which they = can't in blends. Keeping bees is so expensive that this best possible = price is needed if it is to remain sense for hobbyists to keep more than = say a couple of colonies as pets. So beware when you hear it does not = matter if a little sugar gets in, or antibiotics do not matter, or = unauthorised substances to kill mites are OK, that it is 'normal = beekeeping practice'. Times are changing and customers will no longer = buy if they think the standard is too low. McDonald's have just = registered their first loss after 50 years of growth - after the quality = of the food was exposed by a food writer and a judge condemned McNuggets = as McFrankenstein creations. McDonalds are being driven upmarket - in = London and LA they already offer low fat meals from the New Tastes Menu. = There's nothing unrealistic about protecting the reputation of honey by = concentrating on 'progressive beekeeping, informed by science', and = leaving behind some of the 'tricks-of-the trade'. Nor is it proven that = you get lower production. Professional beekeepers use tiered hives = because they move their bees. Most hobbyists don't - humping heavy boxes = is not much fun - so you can use a modern hive like the Dartington Long = Deep Hive where the unrestricted size of the brood chamber leads to = larger populations and gives me more honey than my National hives = (details by e-mail if wanted).=20 There are professional beekeepers who sell honey for as much or more as = hobbyists. I bought 'own brand' honey from South Western Australia = recently for over =A312 per 1=BD pounds. A 1991 report to the Honeybee = Research and Development Council said the state produces 10% of = Australian honey, queen breeding is state controlled and sugar feeding = is not practised. It would be interesting to hear more from South = Western Australia.=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:50:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy Dave Green quotes "Once there are swarm cells, it is time to bow to the inevitable and split them...." Help me out here. My understanding was that once bees had it in mind to swarm, there was nothing you could do to stop them. I agree that cutting cells is a waste of time and I have no intention of practicing this. I would however like to understand more about splitting once there obvious signs of swarming. Can you split anytime after you detect swarm cells? Will this stop them, or will you simply have 2 swarms instead of 1? Did I miss something here? I would like Dave's thoughts on this and anyone else that has experience. Thanks for the info. Kurt Bower :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Drone genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan wrote: >> Well! It's starting to get technical!. As I understand it, a drone is a > > >> clone of the queen. She lays an unfertilized egg, which is the product of > > >> mysosis. I may be confused, but this would mean that the division of the > > >> chromosomes would not always be identical, which means that the drones >> aren't techinically clones, unless the eggs are produced >> parthenocarpically. If they are produced parthenocarpically, they are >> clones. > While every drone only carries his mother's DNA, he is not a clone as he is not genetically identical to her - he only has 1/2 of her genetic material. She has two copies of every gene, and each copy may function just a wee but differently than its allele on the other chromosome. A clone is genetically identical - having *all* of the same DNA. For every gene in a dipolid individual there are two alleles or copies. When one condenses one's chromosomes for replication there is a certain amount of cross over that occures, switching of alleles from one chromosome to another if you will. Soooo, when an egg is produced, and and the chromosomes are divided, each half wanders off with a random sample of the two alleles for each gene. Just because drones contain 1/2 of mothers chromosomes/genes/alleles does not make them idetical - after all - whaddya think happens to the other half of that genome?? Parthenocarpy is an altogether different phenomenon and does not apply here. Bees are not bananas! Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > - can we have references to the papers > so we can look them up? Apidologie 33 (2002) p 399 Determination of residues in honey after treatments with formic and oxalic acid under field conditions. Stefan Boodanov (et al) Swiss Bee Research Center. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Drone genetics "Parthenocarpy is an altogether different phenomenon and does not apply here. Bees are not bananas!" That was my point. That the drones of queens are variable. The only way I can see a bee producing a clone is when workers do it occasionally using thelytoky, a form of parthenogenesis. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:46:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: This is the sort of commercial practice... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is the sort of commercial practice that leads to excessive use > of chemicals and accelerates development of resistance to miticides. Horsefeathers. I see we are back to sweeping unsubstantiated, categorical and demonstrably false statements again: rhetoric and opinion masquerading as fact. Compared to the very real and very common alternative of no testing at all, sampling at any level is a very beneficial practice. The optimal degree of sampling necesary to gain reasonable assurance is dependant on many factors, including region, history, climate, degree of experience of the operator, and recent previous finds. Moreover, let me state categorically that, in my operation, what the previous writer might consider, "...testing a sample (several hives) from each apiary [for mites]," in fall is usually suffiicient to indicate that there is no need for treatment, thus saving a round of chemical. I assume this is the exception that proves the statement -- " This is the sort of commercial practice that leads to excessive use of chemicals and accelerates development of resistance to miticides. " -- False. I could go on to discuss this all in greater depth, but have written volumes on this topic in the past and leave it to those who care to plumb the archives. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com > (c)Permission to reproduce, granted. > Opinion is not necessarily fact. > --- > ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ This l l tagline has l l a few l l bees in it... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:50:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > - can we have references to the papers so we can look them up? I spent some time compiling sources some time back. Visit http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/ The page is due for another update, so please send me any good links y'll find out there. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:57:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy In-Reply-To: <200304150950.h3F9cRDf013033@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:50 AM 4/15/03 -0400, you wrote: >Can you split anytime after you detect swarm cells? Will this stop them, or >will you simply have 2 swarms instead of 1? Did I miss something here? My experience has been mixed. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Perhaps its in the timing (catching it earlier may help), or maybe I just missed swarm cell. Last year, after finding several swarm cells in a particularly large hive, I made 3 splits. I though I got all the cells, yet the colony swarmed the next day, and then again the following week. Though making an artificial swarm/split has worked at other times for me. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:13:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Looking for information One in Holland: http://www.buckfast.nl/en.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk@listserv.albany.edu> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:19:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Is she really a virgin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/04/03 05:03:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << If she is newly minted and unmated and slim and beautifully anorexic, could she not go through the QE with no trouble at all as we sometimes observe? >> Yoon, It is the thorax, not the abdomen, that the queen excluder is calculated to stop passing through. I don't think this changes after mating. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:05:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: South Carolina Report: Swarmy Comments: cc: Kurt Bower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 April, Kurt Bower asked "Can you split anytime after you detect swarm cells? Will this stop them, or > will you simply have 2 swarms instead of 1? Yes, but u must then WHOLLY separate the queen/swarm from the brood. If u leave any cell at all by mistake, they will still swarm. If u leave eggs they will raise more cells and swarm, sometimes before the first cell is sealed. But if they have no brood at all, only empty drawn combs and foundation, then there is a check (as in natural swarming) and they will not swarm again until they built out a new brood nest . The delay may be only say 3 to 4 weeks - but if you use a Long Deep hive, with the broodless swarm at one end and the parent at the other, 3 weeks is long enough to raise a new queen from one of the swarm cells and when u switch her to head the whole of the re-united colony , that hive will not swarm again that season. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:30:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/04/03 05:03:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << When you consider the ease of treatment, its effectiveness, the lack of residue, it seems to be an excellent alternative control for Varroa. Plus, it is cheap and widely available. Only trouble, it is not permitted/licensed in the US (but is in Europe). >> The main use of oxalic acid is to clean discoloured wood work. I an sure you will have some staining on the top bars of some of your frames. I expect it would be regarded as good hygienic practice to have your top bars as clean as possible by dribbling oxalic acid solution on them. If you should happen to miss and get it on the bees instead, well try again next year. I used it this year (March 3rd) on a hive that was dropping naturally 3 mites a day. The model predicts 300 mites in the hive from that count. 800 dropped over a couple of days, plus another 100 in the following couple of days or so. Then it tailed off to about 15 a day and is now back to 3 a day. Chris Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:51:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Swarmy bees, before and after... In-Reply-To: <200304150950.h3F9cRDf013033@listserv.albany.edu> From: Kurt Bower > Can you split anytime after you detect swarm cells? Will this stop them, Yup, if you do it right. > or will you simply have 2 swarms instead of 1? And yes, if you simply split, while leaving multiple cells in them, you could get multiple small swarms. First, move the parent colony to a new spot. This is critically important! (OK, this is going to be a detailed explanation, so you will have to read carefully and think thru each idea. There are many factors to keep in mind. Beekeepers with years of experience deal with this rapidly and by habit, without consciously going thru the reasoning, but newbies need to *think* at every step.) I generally just move the "swarmy hive" over onto a new pallet, or onto a space where there had been a deadout. This will "lose" the field force, and almost guarantee that they will not swarm, even if they have the old queen and/or multiple cells. It only needs to move three or four feet. You can move it thirty feet, if you want, but you'll do more walking back and forth while finishing the process. Then put a made-up nuc with a frame of brood, a frame of honey, and preferably ONE swarm cell on the old site. Try not to include the old queen, though they can be hard to find if they have already shut her down. Do not put too many bees in this nuc, as it will gain the field force, and having only one cell; they will not swarm. It probably should have a full sized box, rather than a nuc box, because it will have a large population in only a few hours of flight. You can use some frames of foundation if there will be a flow for awhile. You can stop at this point, having divided your colony into two that are now unlikely to swarm. But you may have many more frames of brood with many queen cells in that parent colony. Why not use them to advantage? These frames with cells (from the old colony) can be used to make nucs. But it's best to put them in screened nuc boxes, move to a new location at least 2 miles away, then open them. A nuc can be made with one frame of brood, including one or more queen cells on it. Handle gently as the cells are fragile. Depending on whether you have a 3-frame, 4-frame, or 5-frame nuc box, you can include another frame of brood without swarm cells. Include also a frame of honey, as they will not have a large field force to feed the new colony for awhile. Make sure there are enough adult bees to cover the brood for any cold nights that may come up. They are unlikely to swarm, even if they have multiple cells, as they are adapting to a new spot. (Normally I like to make a 5-frame nuc with one frame of mostly sealed brood, a queen cell or caged queen, another frame with some pollen and perhaps partial brood, open or sealed, a frame of honey. a frame of drawn comb, and a frame of foundation, and enough adult bees to cover all brood, in case of cold nights. That way they are covered for all eventualities. If it is poor weather, they have the honey to keep them from starving. If there is a good flow, they have some comb and some foundation to draw.) If you remove very many of the adult bees from your original site (by sealing them up in carried-away nucs), keep in mind that you won't get so many field bees to go back to the nuc on the original site, so adjust its strength accordingly. You can sell the nucs you make as there is a good market for them. But you would also be wise to keep at least one nuc for each ten hives you maintain, at least until mid-summer. Then you have them ready to drop right into problem hives (queenless or "chalkbroody" or...) whenever needed. It's always better if you catch hives BEFORE they swarm. I hate working bees after they have swarmed. If I had my druthers, I'd rather keep the swarm and let someone else have the old colony. The old colony may throw several swarms, and when done, will have only a lot of honey, and a bunch of mean old bees, and likely a virgin, which is hard to spot, and never certain to get mated. If they have just swarmed, within the past day or two, It's important to work the parent colony ASAP. Look closely at each frame for cells. Hatched cells are chewed evenly all around at the tip, often leaving a hinged lid. Killed cells are torn down on the side. If there are still viable cells, they are preventing the virgin(s) from tearing them down, and are planning an afterswarm. Split right away! But be careful; a hatched cell can sometimes swing that "lid" back, and they reseal it, so it looks like a viable cell, but has nothing inside. Or it may have a worker trapped inside (backwards from the queen position). You can gently scrape the tip to see if it pops open and is empty. If you see fibrous material under the wax, and the bees show a lot of interest in the cell, it is probably a live cell. If all cells are hatched or torn down, you have lost a prime swarm several days ago, and probably two or three afterswarms. You can wait to see if they get the virgin mated OK. If they don't, they will get progressively meaner, and will die out, having no way to raise another queen. You can greatly improve the odds of colony survival; give them another chance to raise a queen, if the first failed; get them up-and-going faster; and keep them from getting so mean, by giving them a frame or two of brood, with at least a few eggs. DON'T waste a caged queen by giving one at this time. They will certainly kill it. Caged queens should always have sealed brood around them at introduction. This will give her the young bees who will care for her. Never risk a caged queen, either, if there are cells, or possibly virgin queens in the hive. It's a waste. If you have already bought queens, and must use them, use them to make nucs, then add back to the problem colonies later as an entire nuc, with her young bees surrounding the queen, and a good flow or a little feed to make the old bees happy enough to leave her alone. As I said, I hate working bees that have already gone. They are real time-wasters; they cost you (brood), without giving you anything in return for your time. But adding a frame (or two) of brood with eggs, and closing them up, is the best thing to do. Mark the date, so you can check later for queen mating. It's at times like this, you see why new beekeepers are always advised to start with at least two hives, as trading frames of brood is about the only way to deal with problems after swarming. Three or four hives is better yet. The guy with one hive had better have some beekeeper friends nearby, who are willing to trade around. And a couple nuc boxes are also an essential item for any beekeepers, even ones with only one hive. Dave SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 05:05:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Swarmy bees, before and after... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I generally just move the "swarmy hive" over onto a new pallet, or > onto a space where there had been a deadout. This will "lose" the > field force... And the scout bees who are promoting new homes tio the rest of the populace... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Today: Styrofoam vs, wooden hives - wintering results :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Freakish Swarm Anecdotes Wanted! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks everyone for your response. Despite various interesting inputs, however, I find Chris’ last point most pertinent here; hence, I must conclude that the Queen Excluder set under the BC is still a viable option in forcing the secondary swarm to stay put. Waiting till dusk dose not sound good for me for fear of losing the swarm and using a frame of brood, an excellent idea as mentioned in the archive, is no good for me, either, for I would not sacrifice any brood from my production hives: during a flow, I almost never open up the brood chamber after I had done my swarm prevention earlier. On a lighter note, since we are on swarm-mode, let me hear some interesting anecdotes, regarding swarm or bait hive. For instance, we would all agree that the bait hive must be in place long before the bees swarm. I agree. However, I wonder if there had been any freak incident where a swarm just moved into the boxes that you happened to carry along in your pickup in a neighborhood. During swarm season, for instance, I, always on the go, carry three units of deeps on my pickup for swarm- retrieval, and I park at school regularly, which made me think about such remote and unlikely possibility. What do you say? Yoon Only light flow in Shawnee, OK. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Progressive beekeeping, informed by science Robin Dartington stated: > Let me say again that there is an economic reason as well as a moral > principle - hobbyists who produce honey by methods that guarantee > purity can get a 30% to 50% higher price for the small quantity they > produce than some professional beekeepers get for their much larger crops. The "feed" question? Again? OK, Once more, into the breech... I'm not sure what "guarantee" of purity any hobby beekeeper can offer. I'm not sure what "moral principle" might prevent one from feeding a colony, but I do know that a well-known moral principle behind feeding a starving colony - one of the 10 Commandments ("Thou Shalt Not Kill"). A starving colony of bees can only be "the beekeeper's fault". To not feed would be to kill the bees. Not much leeway, is there? God was very clear on this point in nearly every religion's basic teachings. I've never been asked for any "guarantee" by any honey customer. I agree that LOCAL honey and/or MONOFLORAL honey do command a higher price at retail, but the only "natural" designation with any meaning would be the formal "Organic" standards, far beyond the reach of all but a few very isolated beekeepers. We have addressed the transparent contempt for professional beekeepers before, so I need not repeat myself and others. I remain willing to place very large wagers on the actual superior technical purity of the crops of randomly-selected commercial beekeepers versus randomly-selected hobbyists, as measured by the best equipment and methodologies available today. I am neither a "commercial" beekeeper, nor do I sell my crop in bulk, but I see what I see, and I know "professionalism" when I see it. Any takers? I'll ante $1,000.00 US, and you can raise, call, or fold. > This is because 'guaranteed pure' local honey, Exactly what sort of "guarantee" might one be able to make when one lacks any actual testing equipment to verify that one's honey contains nothing it should not? Few hobby beekeepers even bother to invest in a refractometer, a very basic tool. A hobby beekeeper who keeps bees in a suburban area could have significant amounts of various chemicals in his/her honey and pollen, simply because different homeowners may use herbicides and pesticides at random times, and the beekeeper has no way of knowing. (Living among farmers is an advantage, as they follow schedules, and are happy to mention their plans in advance when they know that "it might hurt the bees". I even get calls when neighbors plan to spread manure!) > carrying the producers name on every jar, Perhaps the UK is different, but here in the US, the "producer's name" is required on the label by law in nearly all states. If the honey is packed by a packer, then the packer's name is required. While the producer's name on the jar offers the perception of better accountability, this is not a "guarantee". Most consumers don't know who is a packer and who is a producer anyway. The packers pick names that give the impression they are producers (mostly involving the misleading use of the term "farm"), further confusing matters. > finds a market with the health-conscious who care about what they > eat and mistrust anonymous blended brands identified only by the > packer's label. Again, this is the "local honey" perception factor. If there is any aura of "quality" that is implied by "local", that's good, but this is "marketing" rather than "science" or "beekeeping". It clearly has no correlation to the "quality" of the original crop or the "quality" of the final product. > Last year, all UK supermarket 'own brands' had to be dumped in > landfill after antibiotics were found in the Chinese honey blended in. Yeah, and to be honest, it was not because of any possible valid tangible health risk to the consumer. When you are down in the "parts per billion" and "parts per trillion" range, no one eating even a entire 5-gallon pail of honey would get anywhere near a "dose" that might result in any detectable physiological reaction, much less build "resistance" to antibiotics, the stock reason given for the "concern". There - I said it. The Chinese Fire Drill over Chinese honey was opportunistic and cynical protectionism masquerading as a "technical barrier to trade". There was NO valid health or safety issue in regard to that honey. None. There was a level of residue at the very edge of detection for something that should not be in food, and everyone was well within their rights to reject the honey and pull the honey from shelves, but it was nothing but "Realpolitik" in the current variation of high-stakes international trade wars, where everyone smiles and waves international agreements about while they play exactly the same old self-serving games played ever since the first ships sailed between the city-states of old. It was also a shot across EVERYONE'S bow, not just the Chinese. My question is "who's next?" Your honey may be next to be "analyzed" using these new highly sensitive technologies by someone who wants to find some excuse to claim that it is "contaminated". When and if it is tested in this manner, you will find out that at the lower levels of claimed contamination, the statistical analysis matters as much, if not more, than the sensitivity of the equipment. Any fair scientist would say "there is a PROBABILITY of X % that the honey sample contains a Y part-per-billion (or trillion) component of chemical Z". That's why statisticians speak of "degrees of confidence", and will rarely make any flat or absolute statement. > So beware when you hear it does not matter if a little sugar gets in, No one has ever said that. What has been claimed is that ANY feeding will "get sugar into the honey", which is a very misinformed claim. An educated and skilled beekeeper CAN feed his bees without screwing up his honey, and a beekeeper that leaves excessive honey stores on over winter (as proposed by the so-called "natural" advocates is this discussion) is CERTAIN to contaminate his honey crop with miticide residues. Hmmmm... either a risk of contamination with sugar, or a certainty of contamination with miticide. A easy choice when one thinks clearly. > or antibiotics do not matter Of course they matter - they can save colonies. Who said otherwise? Of course they must be used sparingly, and with care. Who said otherwise? > or unauthorised substances to kill mites are OK, Who said that they were? > that it is 'normal beekeeping practice'. The number of straw-man arguments being offered is giving this entire mailing list the odor of freshly-mown hay. "Normal beekeeping practice" is to keep the bees alive! That's why we call it "beeKEEPing". While there are some scenarios that make one choose between keeping the bees alive and getting a honey crop that season, this is a case-by-case problem which requires consideration of specific circumstances. Trying to create straw man arguments about some actions being "natural" and others being "unnatural" only confuses matters. Trying to make broad sweeping statements about actions that are very specific in both intent and effect also only confuses matters. > There's nothing unrealistic about protecting the reputation > of honey by concentrating on 'progressive beekeeping, The suggestions and clams that I take exception to above are "regressive", rather than progressive. They are also misleading. > informed by science' I'm not sure what is claimed to be "science" in the statements made above, but I sure don't see any. To get back to the core issue that seems to be (still!) on the table (feeding sugar for overwintering and for spring motivation), I defy anyone to present any actual science that implies that this carries more risk to one's honey crop than leaving excessive amounts of stores on the hive over winter, which are sure to become contaminated with one's miticide of choice. I went over this last week, here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0304b&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=10838 others also addressed it, in "Week 2 of April 2003": http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0304b&L=bee-l&D=0 > and leaving behind some of the 'tricks-of-the trade'. Why offer up general straw-man arguments and positions, and then argue with them? Why not address statements actually made or specific practices in context? This might lead to a productive and informative discussion. > Professional beekeepers use tiered hives because they move > their bees. Most hobbyists don't - humping heavy boxes is > not much fun - so you can use a modern hive like the > Dartington Long Deep Hive Well, I know what a "long hive" is - its not very "modern" - the Russians have used them for a loooong time. But I have no idea what the "Dartington" variant of this hive design might be. Regardless, I would offer that lifting anything that is "long and deep" sounds very difficult. Since ANY hive may need to be moved for one reason or another, one wants a modular system of identical replaceable components, such as using 100% Langstroth mediums, which are only 6 inches deep, and can weigh, at most, perhaps 45 lbs for supers full of honey, less for brood chambers. A child of 10 can lift a "brood box" this way. > where the unrestricted size of the brood chamber leads to > larger populations and gives me more honey than my National > hives I don't have any restrictions on my brood chamber size, either. No one does! Boxes are merely boxes. One can stack them up as one wishes. Best of all, with a modular approach, one can REVERSE brood chambers in spring, as suggested by many experts, but I'm still not really sure if these are experts in beekeeping, or experts in physical fitness. :) Woodenware cannot really "do" anything itself. The beekeeper does things. The bees do things. The woodenware just sits there. Advocates of one type of hive or another make me laugh, as bees will adapt to anything you toss them into. I think Allen Dick had (perhaps still has?) a old toolbox that contained a thriving colony for several seasons. The only "problem" with woodenware is the lack of consistent bee space among gear claimed to be "standard", meaning that a colony made up from components made by multiple vendors is prone to excessive bridge comb. What is needed are actual industry standards for woodenware so that equipment can be truly standard. What is NOT needed is yet another incompatible style of hive, much less one claimed to have magical properties. But beekeepers like to play around with their table saws, so we can expect more "new" hive designs every year. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Freakish Swarm Anecdotes Wanted! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This winter I had several hives starve out because I did not feed them at critical times during bad weather. I wanted to try and do something with them before they were destroyed by wax moths, so I brought one home and put it on the cement pad behind my house, hoping that I would get a phone call about a swarm I could go pick up and install in it (as I had previously gotten calls and already picked up a couple of swarms). A couple of days later, I saw a lot of bee activity around it, so I thought that maybe my other hives had found some stores in it or something and were robbing it, but I sure thought that there was no honey left in it. The following day I looked closer, and could see bees bringing pollen into it, so I realized that a swarm had moved into it while I wasn't looking. Nice large colony of gentle bees. It probably couldn't have been better if I'd bought them. The only problem is that the hive is in an inconvenient spot so I will have to move it. A day or so later, I moved another empty hive (same situation) and put it several feet away from the first one, again, intending to clean it up and not sure of what I was going to do with it, but hoping I could find a swarm to install in it. The following day, a swarm had moved into it while I was gone to work. All my starveouts have colonies in them now. My son and I were talking about whether there was anyone else in our neighborhood keeping bees, and he told me he had seen someone with hives in their yard a couple of streets over. They must have been bees from that neighbor is my guess. That's the first time I've ever caught swarms without having to drive somewhere for them. That makes 4 swarms I've installed this season so far--well, actually 2--the other 2 installed themselves--nice bees too. I buy queens from time to time, but I have yet to buy a package of bees. On an aside, I got a call about a nice big swarm at the end of last week and asked the folks how far off the ground it was. They said 8 feet. When I got there, I found it was 8 feet above the WATER hanging over a pond. I'm good, but not THAT good. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" After a long, seemingly never-ending winter in these parts we had a record breaking hot day yesterdays: 86dF! Forecast for tomorrow, sleet and freezing rain :-( But that's a different story. Anyway, I carped the diem and was checking hives and over-wintered nucs. I opened a 5-frame nucs, amazed that is was still alive, and to my surprise, the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly flew off! In all my years I've never seen such a thing. I've seen queens escape from a queen cage and fly away, but I've never seen a laying queen just up and fly away from her colony. After a few expletives, I pulled a few frames and saw freshly laid eggs, so I know the queen was laying. Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Might anyone offer an explanation or SWAG? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:38:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I've never seen a laying queen just up and fly >away from her colony. After a few expletives, I pulled a few frames and saw >freshly laid eggs, so I know the queen was laying. > >Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Might anyone offer an explanation >or SWAG? > > Hi Aaron, > I have never seen a laying queen fly off in 35 years of beekeeping. Maybe George has seen it happen to him. This is why beekeeping is so fascinating, the bees do not read books. Best Regards Roy > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:46:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Progressive beekeeping, informed by science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why offer up general straw-man arguments and positions, and > then argue with them? Why not address statements actually > made or specific practices in context? This might lead to > a productive and informative discussion. Oddly enough, I find myself agreeing totally with Jim on almost every point. I do appreciate all the other contributions on this topic though, even those which verge on pontification. Purity of honey is an important subject, and illuminating all the points of view is fascinating. Sugar -- contrary to what some might suggest -- is not a poison. It is a food that is widely accepted and ubiquitous in our diet. As a contaminant in honey, sugar at low levels is mostly of economic significance as far as most of the population is concerned. Moreover it is a matter of honesty and truth in labelling. And, oddly, what has not yet come up in this discussion, is the question of people who may have sensitivities to minuscule amounts of common subtances. I have heard there are some individuals who are affected by table sugar in any amount, possibly due to the passing of sugar liquor over bone char that is apparently part of some forms of manufacture. Does anyone know more about this? > Woodenware cannot really "do" anything itself. The beekeeper does > things. The bees do things. The woodenware just sits there. > Advocates of one type of hive or another make me laugh, as bees > will adapt to anything you toss them into. I think Allen Dick had > (perhaps still has?) a old toolbox that contained a thriving colony > for several seasons. It just happens that we were looking at it last night and there is a picture on today's diary page along with a good shot of Joe's haircut. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Today's special: The Allen Dick horizontal hive. Superior performance at a low, low price. Get yours today. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:34:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Anybody we know? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Anne Frey saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you should see it. ** Bees swarm to Queen's visit ** The Queen's ceremonial review of the Grenadiers Guards takes place after a swarm of bees is cleared. < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/berkshire/2951229.stm > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron said: I opened a 5-frame nucs, amazed that is was still alive, and to my surprise, the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly flew off! Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Sure! She should return to the hive in a few minutes. I posted years ago that the old wives tale about a laying queen can not fly is pure *hogwash*. I have had laying queens fly from a frame at various times. Rare as it is it still happens on occasion. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:23:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: a new one on me! Aaron said: > to my surprise, the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly > flew off! In all my years I've never seen such a thing. I've seen queens > escape from a queen cage and fly away, but I've never seen a laying queen > just up and fly away from her colony. After a few expletives, I pulled a > few frames and saw freshly laid eggs, so I know the queen was laying. > Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Might anyone offer an explanation > or SWAG? I've never seen this either. Here is a SWAG - If you go back and look tomorrow (or when you are next able), you may find that the marked queen has returned. Since she is marked, you can have a high degree of certainty that you are looking at the same queen. I would look for another (new, unmarked, homegrown) queen in the same nuc. When I see anything funny in April and early May here in Virginia, my default assumption is that I have a potential swarming scenario. Maybe you need to split the nuc! :) Please report results - don't leave us hanging. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:43:16 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Pure honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, The antibiotic found in chinese honey is BANNED in the EU and has been = for many years. End of story. Best regards Roger White=20 Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:11:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote > to my surprise, the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly > flew off! In all my years I've never seen such a thing. . > Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Yes, I have seen it quite often when catching queens from mating nucs. They do not go too far and will return to the nuc provided the ants do not get her first. If they fly and I cannot find her in the grass, I usually close up the nuc and come back when I have finished the yard and catch her. Are they any good as a queen and will they continue to fly for the rest of their life? I used a couple of these "fliers" myself in our own hives and found that they settled down and I did not see them fly again. Maybe in our case, it is because they are young and a little nervous. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:52:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: a new one on me! I have had a queen in full lay fly. At the time, our Association had an apiary at the College in Stratford-upon-Avon and I had an apiary in a garden about 200 yards away over two rows of houses. The Association had one very bad tempered colony and as I was planning to requeen one of my colonies I thought that it might be a good idea to use the old queen (in her second year) to requeen the Association colony. I found the queen, reached for a cage, looked back - and she was not on the comb. I went through the colony again and found her - she had flown from the face of the comb back into the colony. I made sure that I caged her the second time and went round to the Association site. At this point I decided that it might be a good idea to clip and mark her so, working on the rear parcel shelf of the car, I opened her cage. She immediately ran out and took to the air, circling slowly around with her heavy abdomen hanging down. I watched her head off over the houses in the direction of her home! I returned to my apiary, went through the hive again and, sure enough, there she was back in her original hive. I caught her again, clipped and marked her in the car - with the windows shut! - and introduced her to the Association hive where she spent the rest of her days. I find it incredible that a queen that had been in full lay for over a year, and presumably had not flown since her mating flight (?), was able to remember the surrounding land and navigate back to her hive. This happened in my early days of beekeeping and was a useful lesson, although I had a similar incident with a young queen that I had raised (she had laid up a few frames in the mating nuc) and was planning to introduce into one of my hives. In this case I took her to the new apiary where she managed to escape. I watched her fly around and then disappear from sight. However, I sat and watched and waited and after about 15 minutes she reappeared and then pitched on some weeds. I quickly threw a veil over her and was then able to catch her. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:13:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Freakish Swarm Anecdotes Wanted! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not exactly freakish..... I was out on errands and running late as usual. When I got home, I saw the car parked out in front. Ooops! The window salesman beat me home. I opened up the gate and drove in. When I went back to close the gate, I notice a whole mess of bees in my new bee space. (One hive and lots of equipment waiting for the metal shed I bought to get put together.) The solar melter is here, too. On the front of a stack of medium supers was a rather large amount of bees and a bunch of drones. I had sat these supers on a bottom and put a top on them to keep out bugs 'til I got to them. There was about a 4 bee opening and I saw bees going in. Remember, I was late to meet with the window guy, so I went in the house, vowing to check it out later. The window saleman had a sting on his arm and he told me he was a good 'ole country boy and it didn't bother him. It seems when he drove up, he saw a swarm on the telephone pole. By the time he gathered up his stuff and got out of the car, he stepped into the middle of the swarm. My husband said it was wild looking. Here was the guy surrounded by a cloud of bees. Well, those bees moved into my stack of supers and I didn't lift a finger! Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: a new one on me! In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1018205@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly flew off! > >Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? >Aaron Morris I saw one fly off last summer. It was a one story colony, that I had taken all the brood from to make nucs. I was check it on the next visit to see if she was laying. She flew right off the comb. I closed the colony, and on my next visit she was back and laying. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:01:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Candle making/Insurance Coverage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen In a similar vein I make creamed honey. Thus I am, or could be seen as modifying the natural product, honey. Thus I suppose that is outside the coverage. Then again most heat their honey to some extent. We know that heat changes honey. At what point does the modification make the whole insurance a sham? george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:24:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I've never seen a laying queen just up and fly >> away from her colony > I have never seen a laying queen fly off in 35 years of beekeeping. It's not that uncommon. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:30:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: a new one on me! In-Reply-To: <002001c30422$1fa65720$ea342fca@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, I have seen it quite often when catching queens from mating nucs. >> Yes that was the first thing I thought of too.I have seen this many times in the small baby nucs when catching queens that are just starting to lay,especially if they get nervous and start to run.Last year I raised around 40 Russians and it seemed every other one wanted to fly away during catching!Invariably,they just fly around in a circle a few times then go back in the nuc. ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: open bottom boards In-Reply-To: <004001c2ffce$d016dba0$5e94fdcf@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From:Peter John Keating > Most of the references to screened bottoms seem to use 8 openings > per inch. Of course the size of the opening would differ with different > gauge wire but there is a Standard Mesh size in the U.S. and this is what > all North American beekeepers would have available to them. Has any one > tried 6 mesh? I seem to remember one paper that said 6 mesh is large enough that yellow jackets could get in, requiring the bees to defend the entire bottom floor (yellow jackets hang outside my hives in the fall in fairly large numbers, trying to find a way in). 8 mesh is commonly available, but 7 is also sold at beekeeping supply houses. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:39:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Holst Milk Test Skim milk powder contains the proteins lactalbumen and caseinogen. Lactalbumen makes the skin that is such an annoyance when making hot chocolate. Caseinogen is very abundant and is seen as fine suspended blobs which we see as the opacity and white colour of milk. Sporulating P. larvae produce proteolytic enzymes that reduce the opacity caused by suspended protein blobs. The concentration of skim milk powder solution doesn't seem to be too critical. There are stories of people adding a scant tablespoon of milk powder to a glass then filling to so as to make a 'cloudy but not opaque' solution. You can try to get as close to 1% solution by first making a stock solution by adding warm (37 C) sterile water to a very clean jar loaded with 1 g of milk powder until the total volume (powder plus water) is 100 ml. Agitate to suspend the milk into the 'solution'. Don't add hot water to the milk powder. High temperatures will denature the milk proteins. Use any multiples of these numbers you want. Dispense your finished solution into smaller but uniform containers for the testing. Add infected material to your test solution in your uniform containers. Don't use your fingers. Brand new toothpicks from a freshly opened package will make good tools to inoculate your test medium. Do multiple tests. Try not to get bits of material not associated directly with the 'diseased' material into the testing solution. (Ideally you would be working with isolated, pure cultures all the while using proper aseptic technique.) Incubate at 37 C for 20 minutes. Try a water bath with a thermometer to monitor the temperature. Don't let water bath water get into your testing containers. Temperature is important. Not too warm, not cool: 37 C is about the temperature in your armpit. (And, yes, I have used my armpit as an incubator. This aseptic technique deserves a paper.) A positive test is a clearing of the milk suspension (cloudiness vanishes). I recommend a negative control (one to which the infected material is not added) for comparison. A clot is not a positive. Lot's of different kinds of bacteria will clot milk. So will acids. The 'positiveness' is likely variable and open to subjective interpretation without a negative control. I wouldn't consider a 'positive' as PROOF but enough evidence for a presumptive P. larvae, especially if prior gross in-field examination showed signs of AFB. I have concerns that any kitchen-counter testing will yield false, silly and invalid results. The Holst Milk Test, like any diagnostic test, assumes you are working with an isolated, pure culture of a suspected pathogen. You need autoclaved glass ware, specialized growth medium, bacteriological loops, microbiologists...etc. I've never used the Holst Milk Test in my lab, but then again, my veterinarian clientele have never asked me to confirm a suspected case of AFB. I've never experienced AFB personally or know anyone locally who will admit to a recent encounter. Strange that. I'd like to try to isolate this wee nasty. May be this year I'll get 'lucky'. Richard Goetze :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:08:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: dedicated honey collectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2952559.stm Link for an article about honey hunters in Bangladesh that brave tigers, in addition to irritated bees, to collect wild honey. Inger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:02:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 April, Chris Slade wrote: "I expect it would be regarded as good hygienic practice to have your top bars as clean as possible by dribbling oxalic acid solution on them." Chris' strategem for using oxalic acid is ingenious but would not stand up in court once it was known he is an expert beekeeper. It would be helpful to know whether UK beekeepers using oxalic before DEFRA updates its guidance in 'Managing Varroa' are covered by the public liability insurance provided through BBKA if a customer or parent of a child in a school beekeeping class complains, but it is usually difficult to get a ruling before an incident has occurred. I rang the National Bee Unit to ask if there is progress towards authorising oxalic now that the scientific study identified by Bill Truesdell has been published. An answer is unlikely before Easter. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 04:18:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: open bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I seem to remember one paper that said 6 mesh is large enough that > yellow jackets could get in, I've seen the occasional honey bee squeeze thru 6 mesh. We used 6 mesh to put a small screen on a queen shipping box so we could easily add a syrup bottle when coming in from the field with remaining queens at the end of a day. (Pictures are available at my May 29, 2002 diary entry -- http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary052002.htm) allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Main diary access page :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Candle making/Insurance Coverage I have a suggestion that might satisfy your insurance underwriters in regard to your candle-making. Face it - they are concerned about the fire hazard. Here at Farmageddon we have all sorts of explosives. Making things go "boom" is not only an enjoyable hobby, but is also a profitable business. Yes, they are stored in a very secure concrete bunker sunk into the side of a hill, well away from any structures, but more important to my insurance company, no explosives come anywhere near the house, barn, or garage. So, if you want to make candles, make them outside, and take photos of the process that document how far away you are from any structures. Be sure to take photos that show a fire extinguisher and a hose nearby, to prove that you have thought through the "brush fire" scenario. This should allow the insurance people to add a rider to the policy that simply prohibits candle-making IN THE COVERED STRUCTURES. They cannot complain about what you do in the yard, as bonfires are common even in small yards when homeowners burn leaves. If you snap a few photos every year, you can continue to document where the candle-making takes place, and have proof that no wax is heated in the house. And while doing things outside, you can rig up some solar collectors to liquefy the wax without running up a big energy expense. Getting 200 F out of a solar collector is easy - even a kludged "solar oven" will do fine. I can't think of a more combustible combination than a bunch of wax being heated near a roomful of supers full of nice dry frames of comb. Any resulting fire would burn like... a candle factory. :) jim (wondering how many smoke alarms currently have dead batteries) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:05:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screen mesh for SBB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning use of different size mesh, Karen Oland said "I seem to remember one paper that said 6 mesh is large enough that yellow jackets could get in, requiring the bees to defend the entire bottom floor (yellow jackets hang outside my hives in the fall in fairly large numbers, trying to find a way in). 8 mesh is commonly available, but 7 is also sold at beekeeping supply houses." Yep, yellow jackets easily go through 6 mesh and so do honeybees (but not so easily as yellow jackets)! Back around 20 years ago some pollen trap manufacturers were using 6 mesh as stripping screens. I was suspicious, so for one entire summer ran a comparison of traps using 6 and 5 mesh. Used two hive stands, six mesh on one hive and five mesh on the other. Switched the traps after 3 weeks. Six mesh traps collected almost 50% more pollen than five mesh traps! To me, that meant they were collecting 'too much' and we continued to use only five mesh screens. AFAIK, now all manufacturers use five mesh, so others might have had the same experience as we did. Seven mesh should be fine as a SBB. However, be careful if you find it less expensive than eight mesh. I know of only one source of seven mesh in the US that is of high quality. Most seven mesh sold is manufactured in China and I have seen some that is of real poor quality with huge gaps (meaning that much of the wire has fewer than seven wires to the inch). My advice...stick with the eight mesh, or contact me privately for the 'good source' of seven mesh. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:20:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Spring formic treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mats you ask > > Does anyone here have experience and/or knowledge about treatment with > formic acid in the spring? I do, using a pad made of homasote in a ziploc bag as perforated for storing vegetables in the refridgerator. > -Is it any good? Doing it for a quite a few years and still have bees so guess it is good. I alternate with Apistan in the Fall to prevent mite tolerance for either to develop in my bees. > -When should it be done? When weather is expected to reach 10 degrees Centigrade for the next week or so. Night temperatures should not be much below freezing for the bees do not cluster as efficiently during treatment. > -Acid concentration? 120ml of 65% formic acid in the pad in the vegetable storage bag made by Ziploc produces the required vapour concentration for the hive if all holes but bottom entrance are closed. The bottom entrance should be wide open. > -Application methods? As developed by Dr Medhat Nasr and now available (here) with pre made Mite Wipe pads. > -Required temperature? As above > -Drawbacks? time consuming but not as bad as the six treatments required using acid in paper towels I have posted information on several lists. You can search the archives or You can e-mail me directly for more information. Sorry I did not read your request sooner. We had a few days of lovely warm weather so was in apiaries for several days building defences from the several skunks that love eating my bees. But I love honey more so they must be stopped or caught and moved elsewhere. .... george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Pure honey Roger White observed: > The antibiotic found in chinese honey is BANNED > in the EU and has been for many years. End of story. The antibiotic was "found" at the very limits of detection. The interesting point, ignored by all concerned, is that the contamination may have "been there" for years, as only the newest equipment, combined with very specific techniques, can "find" the "contamination". The problem is that a rational person, aware of the limits of such equipment and methodologies, is forced to admit that: a) Such findings of tiny levels are a probability, not an absolute certainty. b) A complete list of what OTHER substances are "detectable" in honey at the same tiny levels might be a very entertaining document, one that would undermine the credibility of the claim that the honey was "contaminated". At such low levels, it can be argued that one can "find" anything one wishes to find. c) While the preponderance of the evidence points towards a conclusion that the honey was in fact contaminated with this specific antibiotic, the problem is that the definition of "zero" has become much more rigorous with the availability of equipment that can detect parts per trillion. When regulations contain flat statements like "zero", while the practical definition of "zero" is "below the threshold of detection", each new wave of shiny toys brings a risk of additional "scares" like this one. When "zero" is a moving target, "zero" is clearly not zero, and anyone saying "zero" is misleading the public. I would guess that the next big "honey scare" will be an environmental contaminant. The new gear is capable of detecting the "residue" of such pollution in honey made from nectar gathered from plants in a polluted area. At what point does everyone admit that NO agricultural crop can be "pure" at the level of "parts-per-trillion"? At what point does everyone calm down and admit that, except for radioactive elements, none of it matters? And why is honey examined so intently in regard to "purity", when other foods that make up a much larger portion of people's diets are ignored? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:50:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: physics involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why is it so difficult to get a smoker started but you often find it still producing a steady stream of smoke the next morning! Just visited 100 hives, 18 or so dead ones, made 40 splits, great strength despite the cold Northeastern winter we just had, some have attributed it to the early application of medication,placed in earlt August, and all had a third deep super and many were in it fully having exhausted the bottom two in many cases. That is my report for this spring of 2003, very encouraging. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:23:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe she didn't like a beekeeper who knew how to use foul language. This is the BEST that I can offer as a reason. BTW, it is 88° in Washington, DC this afternoon, and an expected high of only 40° tomorrow. Can't blame these freak things on Saddam Hussein any more, maybe blame it on the war protesters so they quit and go back to WORK. Aaron, I predict a GREAT honey crop for both you in New York and me in Maryland, because the bees that came through the long tough winter are STRONG and ready to go, and a ground water table is well restored to make nectar. George :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: screened bottom MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sometimes the bees can pass trough a 6 mesh screen when it ihas not been manufactured with precision. This what a beekeeper experienced here in Québec. This is also why you find quite often bees in the pollen drawer of pollen traps. Would anybody know who actually sells 7 mesh? > -----Original Message----- > From:Peter John Keating > Most of the references to screened bottoms seem to use 8 openings per > inch. Of course the size of the opening would differ with different > gauge wire but there is a Standard Mesh size in the U.S. and this is > what all North American beekeepers would have available to them. Has > any one tried 6 mesh? I seem to remember one paper that said 6 mesh is large enough that yellow jackets could get in, requiring the bees to defend the entire bottom floor (yellow jackets hang outside my hives in the fall in fairly large numbers, trying to find a way in). 8 mesh is commonly available, but 7 is also sold at beekeeping supply houses. Karen Jean-Pierre Chapleau Les Reines Chapleau 1282, rang 8 Saint-Adrien, (Québec) Canada J0A 1C0 tél: (819) 828-3396, fax: (819) 828-0357 site web: http://reineschapleau.wd1.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:51:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: wire mesh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seven mesh wire is advertised as available from Betterbee (800-632-3379), Kelley (800-233-2899), and other bee supply distributors. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:05:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Pure honey Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > >And why is honey examined so intently in regard to >"purity", when other foods that make up a much larger >portion of people's diets are ignored? > > > jim > > HI Jim and All, > The short answer is Religion. All of the major religions of the world has in writing, the true goodness of Honey. They cover more than, taste good.. Hence , it is a gift that heals in its natural state. Over the years I have been well educated by my customers on the subject. I agree , with all the new technology , its hard not to find pollutants in anything. I think it is more of a man-made chemical problem , than just air pollutants. Tell me where it is clean on this planet? Best Regards Roy > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:35:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pure honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The antibiotic was "found" at the very limits of detection. I wonder if Jim, or anyone on this list, knows -- as of today, A.) the actual numerical levels of chloramphenicol that have been found, and B.) the proven harmful dose for those individuals who are susceptible to developing aplastic anemia from the drug. I'd be interested in the mean and the variation, and the probability that -- somewhere in the massive amounts of product shipped -- there might be harmful levels. Ref: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212C&L=bee-l&P=R932 & http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302A&L=bee-l&P=R3766 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Moving bees in broad daylight today :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:44:52 -0400 Reply-To: bee@digistar.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Mailing list Subject: Too cold to hive package bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone have any advice on when it would be too cold to hive a package of bees? In Boston today it hit 42F but should hit 25F tonight. It's nice and sunny now, supposed to be cloudy and 45 tomorrow, cold tomorrow night also. Does anyone have any suggestions if it would be okay to hive the bees today or tomorrow? The weather isn't supposed to be real great for the next few weeks either :-( Thanks, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:51:18 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, The Chinese have been dumping their rubbish on the world market for = years and making it hard for commercial beekeepers to make a decent = living. Here in Cyprus a lot of Chinese honey was passed off as = "Cypriot" at a discounted price of course. I am very happy that = something was found to be amiss with the Chinese honey and do not feel = at all soryy for them. The banned antibiotic was also found in many = other foods. It is a banned substance because someone has deemed that = it could harm our health. PURE HONEY is not permitted to contain any = "extras". No matter how small amount. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pure honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > I'd be interested in the mean and the variation, and the probability > that -- somewhere in the massive amounts of product shipped -- there > might be harmful levels. I thought the same. But it really does not matter if the level is harmless or greater than what was found. It is a banned antibiotic and is being used somewhere in the beekeeping business in China. We are not dealing with science and any rational decision here. Look at the current scare over arsenic in drinking water. It also is in the ppm/ppb ranges but that is not the issue. It is arsenic and arsenic kills. The levels being discussed have little science but lots of emotion. Recent info says that in small doses it is beneficial, but that does not matter. I would hate to be a commercial distributor of honey and find that Chinese honey was deemed OK because the levels of a banned antibiotic were only trace levels. Antibiotics are not supposed to be in honey no matter if ppm or ppb. No one would buy any honey. Remember Alar? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:56:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Chinese have been dumping their rubbish on the world market for > years That is true, but they have also been selling some very good honey as well. If all their honey were 'junk', we would have a far smaller problem. The big problem with China, for those of us in free market economies -- particularly in countries with hard currencies -- is that Chinese cost of production is hard to reckon, due to their economic and political system. I have heard that the country needs hard currency to purchase imports and will export items that are non-essential to their economy at *any* price they can get, regardless of the internal cost. That makes it impossible for those of us in non-centralized economies to compete, since they will sell at any price, and even continued low price will not reduce production, as it does in free economies. China is a huge country and very worthy of our respect and attention Unfortunately we -- as far as I know -- do not have any Chinese list members. We did have one once, but that was long ago. It would be nice to hear from that 1/4 of the world's population. They have a lot of bees and specialized beekeeping practices that we might like to learn. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:45:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: physics involved MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I, too, am from NY, in the northern Westchester area. You said in your recent post, you just made 40 splits! I have a few surviving hive in great shape (I lost half, due to the hard winter). I was going to split them, but wanted to wait until they started making swarm cells. Any pointers on how, or why, you split them this early? Your area of NY is cooler them mine! Thanks, Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Pure honey > A.) the actual numerical levels of chloramphenicol > that have been found Except for the specific numbers from Louisiana I quoted in my prior posting, all I ever found was the UK results: http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/resultshoneytest And here are the results for streptomycin in honey: http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/honeytable In case any one is wondering, "micrograms per kilogram" is "parts per billion". > B.) the proven harmful dose for those individuals > who are susceptible to developing aplastic anemia > from the drug. Well, I think we can all see from the numbers that 400-500 pounds of honey would have to be consumed to get even 1 milligram of chloramphenicol, and there simply is no effect from 1 mg of anything except certain deadly poisons and neurotoxins. Dunno about cumulative effects, but I can't see how the human body could "store" the stuff. >From what I read, the number of people who might be at risk of developing aplastic anemia is a tiny percentage of the total population anyway. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Pure Honey I guess the Chinese are using the stuff for some sort of foul brood? Or do they have mites and the associated various bacterial diseases? I supose there's not much danger of resentant bees getting over here, but who knows? If they are being irresponsible with their disease treatments, I hope neighboring countries don't have to pay the price. Perhaps a slap on the wrist was good? Regards Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:26:22 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > That is true, but they have also been selling some very good honey as > well. If all their honey were 'junk', we would have a far smaller > problem. I think a lot of the world did not start to analyse Chinese honey until the EU put the ban on all animal products from China because of residues and honey was one of those products caught up in the net. The UK did some analysis and found chloramphenicol. There was some checking done a few year back. Remember chlordimeform? > China is a huge country and very worthy of our respect and attention Most definitely and it would be good to have China on a "level playing field". We are now having to put in QA programs and get our premises "up to standard" and keep the associated paperwork. What is happening in China? We see all the photos coming out from people who have been there of beekeepers extracting in tents with dirt floors etc. Government's don't want to make sure that all imports are on that "level playing field" but we have to jump through hoops to conform. We have the Chinese using other countries to try and sell their honey and pass it off as product of that country. Might not be the beekepeers doing this but it is the honey dealers and their partners. Look at the honey supposedly sold as Australian to the USA to get around the anti-dumping tariff and presumably the residue problem. Lucky our industry here in Australia picked up this goings on and we were able to alert our Governmenet who in turn alerted the USA as to what was happening. The USA Government was able to pick up the illegally imported honey which had chloramphenicol residues. If it had gotten though and been picked up at the retail level, Australia would have been accused of having chloramphenicol in its honey when this is not the case. And before someone jumps up and says it is a bit of righteous indignation, let me say that it is not. All countries, including Australia, have had their problems in the past. We have had to address them in exactly the same way as China now has to address their problem. All I am saying is let us have that "level playing field". Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:21:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: a new one on me! In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1018205@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1018205@email.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >to my surprise, >the marked queen came to the top of the frames and promptly flew off! In >all my years I've never seen such a thing. snip >Has anyone else ever seen such a thing? Might anyone offer an explanation >or SWAG? Yes. We had one fly off in a student's demonstration session. We wanted to mark and clip her and we think she knew! She came back and did the same the following week!! I have had one fly off from a student's fingers who was trying the do something he wasn't supposed to do, but again she was there next week. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:30:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Dadant hives In-Reply-To: <001b01c301d1$d540eb20$357b7ad5@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001b01c301d1$d540eb20$357b7ad5@computer>, Joanna writes > Hi , >My friend has a Dadant Commercial hive and was wondering if anyone knows >that apart from a swarm how they may transfer the bees from a national to >the dadant. Just put the Dadant over the National with a suitable joining (adapting) piece from plywood. (Feed to get comb drawn). Once the queen starts laying in the Dadant, use a (National) queen excluder to keep her in it. Reverse the boxes, put the National above. Remove it once all the bees have hatched or leave it as a super (honey for home). You can also feed the frames to the bees by cutting out the comb and putting it in a top feeder (or give it to National nucs). Alternatively you could modify each National frame having brood to fit into the Dadant and replace them once empty of brood later in the year. In the UK, a Dadant is so big, you'll most likely need a dummy board to keep the winter stores down to, say 50lb max. You can add and subtract frames to suit the bees needs during the year and optimise honey surplus. This gives a lot of flexibility. My equivalent to the Dadant is based on the National and has frames 14" square. The long frame lets the bees make vertical oval brood in spring which is economical on warmth and is an efficient use of bees, so the nest builds rapidly in early spring which is good if you have a good spring flow. I hope this helps. -- James Kilty West Cornwall UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:16:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Progressive beekeeping, informed by science Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <039c01c30418$1ccfea20$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <039c01c30418$1ccfea20$7604c518@gollum>, James Fischer writes >When you are down in the >"parts per billion" and "parts per trillion" range, no one eating >even a entire 5-gallon pail of honey would get anywhere near a >"dose" that might result in any detectable physiological reaction, >much less build "resistance" to antibiotics, the stock reason >given for the "concern". > >There - I said it. The Chinese Fire Drill over Chinese honey was >opportunistic and cynical protectionism masquerading as a "technical >barrier to trade". There was NO valid health or safety issue in >regard to that honey. I am told the Chinese had no system of records, controls and testing over the use of these antibiotics. One of them is apparently the last line of defence against TB, which is rising again over here. The levels varied, I believe. So, the blanket ban is genuine (at worst over- cautious). From what I have heard about Chinese methods, the honey might well be banned on other grounds anyway. Once they get a system that offers better safeguards, the honey will be back. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:05:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Oxalic acid In-Reply-To: <1d4.792181f.2bcde1ef@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <1d4.792181f.2bcde1ef@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >In a message dated 15/04/03 05:03:09 GMT Daylight Time, >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: >I used it this year (March 3rd) on a hive that was dropping naturally 3 mites >a day. The model predicts 300 mites in the hive from that count. 800 dropped >over a couple of days, plus another 100 in the following couple of days or >so. Then it tailed off to about 15 a day and is now back to 3 a day. Useful info thanks Chris. The multiplying factor drops from 400 to 30 over the early months. It sounds like you were in the early part of the transition from winter reckoning to summer. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:18:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: physics involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hives were very strong, they had made many drones, I wanted to dampen the urge to swarm that once begins is hard to stop Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: a new one on me! In-Reply-To: <50.1b524776.2bcef9a5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >BTW, it is 88° in Washington, DC this afternoon, and an expected high of only >40° tomorrow. > In St. Albans, Vermont the temperature was 82 F on Tuesday. It snowed an inch on Wednesday. This morning the temperature was 14 F. The bees are taking it in stride, but it's hard to plan what tasks to work on from day to day. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:33:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Winter survival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed March 16, 2003, Rick Green wrote: >In the upstate region of New York State near Saratoga where I keep my >bees,... I have stopped wrapping because of experiments I have done in the >past so I was concerned this year because of the particularly cold >winter...< Today, April 17, 2003, Rick writes: >Just visited 100 hives, 18 or so dead ones, made 40 splits, great strength >despite the cold Northeastern winter we just had, some have attributed it >to the early application of medication,placed in earlt August, and all had >a third deep super and many were in it fully having exhausted the >bottom...< 1. Rick, could you please explain the idea of *not wrapping* in an area that reaches easily -10/-15 dF for several days in winter? Earlier you also reported that you worried because you had snow to the knees... Could you be kind enough and explain the kinds of experiments you have done in the past (good and bad)? This is a puzzle for me!!! 2. Medication...early August...What kind of medication??? At that time, there is still plenty of brood and there is a goldenrod flow coming last week(s) of August and as long as 1st half of September...agreed; so, that crop had to remain in the hives then, right??? Now you find the bees in the third...it means they consume a lot more than if wrapped? Do you agree? 3. Those who said that cold does not kill the bees...i suppose here is the proof...or? Thanks. Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec, Canada _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis ! http://messenger.fr.msn.ca/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:54:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: physics involved In-Reply-To: <1e3.6f085f6.2bcfef03@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Why is it so difficult to get a smoker started but > you often find it still > producing a steady stream of smoke the next morning! I have found that the best way to get an almost-dead smoker going is to put it on the floor in the front seat and drive with the window cracked. When I stop at a light I have to hang my head out the window to breathe. Eugene Makovec __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:57:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: a new one on me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Aaron Morris wrote: to my surprise, the marked queen came to the top of the frames and > promptly flew off! In all my years I've never seen such a thing. . I keep mini-nucs in Apideas all summer as a teaching aid with children. The boxes are moved a distance before opening in order to lose the flyers and leave only young bees. The queens can only lay few eggs and are always slim. They can fly off if frightened - as they might be if they happened to be on a top bar when any hive is suddenly opened. They sound like drones in flight - quite noisy. They always seem to return within minutes if the box is left slightly open. I doubt they use their eyes to return - more likely scents - bees have increduly sensitive scent recognition. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:41:05 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Pure honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, Selling at any price IS DUMPING and this is prohibited under GATT and by = the WTO. So, not only are the Chinese selling honey that contains a = banned substance, they are also using unfair trading practices. They = got everything they deserved and in my mind certainly do not command = respect. Last year, a shipment of "Cyprus" honey was tested in the UK, = it contained chloramphenicol, the antibiotic is not available here, = this lead to an alert about Cyprus honey. After inquiries were made, = the excuse was that some Chinese honey, that had previously been bottled = at the plant responsible, was still in the system and that this was how = the Cypriot honey came to have the antibiotic in it. Yeah right! So = you can see just from this small example how much deceipt is involved in = the whole Chinese honey system. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:05:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Pure honey "So you can see just from this small example how much deceipt is involved in the whole Chinese honey system." I wouldn't single out the Chinese. It's that way pretty much everywhere except for a few first world nations. During sanctions in South Africa I managed a huge banana plantation and we would occasionally pack the fruit in boxes marked "product of Swaziland". It usually takes two to tango though. I suppose the only solution is going to happen sort of naturally with the world getting smaller. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:05:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrapped 50 and did nothing to the other 50 a few years ago without any difference, this satisfied me that they can tolerate cold, your area is very cold and I have understood that bees are kept in underground storage to keep temp and humidity even throughout the winter which helps their survival rate; regarding medicating early, I was told by I believe Diane Samatara(sic) that early medicating needs to be donne to be sure that multiple cycles of brood are needed to effectively kill the mites, this of course obviates a fall crop, presumably a better spring start is compensation Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T & M Weatherhead wrote: > Most definitely and it would be good to have China on a "level playing > field". We are now having to put in QA programs and get our premises "up to > standard" and keep the associated paperwork. What is happening in China? > We see all the photos coming out from people who have been there of > beekeepers extracting in tents with dirt floors etc. > > Government's don't want to make sure that all imports are on that "level > playing field" but we have to jump through hoops to conform. This is actually the key to the whole discussion. What are the safeguards in the sending country? There should be as much concern on the part of the sending country as to the quality of their exports as the importing country. There cannot be 100% inspection so there will be exceptions, but if a country continues to be found out, then there might be concern as to that country's QA or dedication to quality. It does not start at the border but in the rules and regulations governing the industry. It does not matter if it is in ppm or ppb. Why is it there in the first place? As far as China, there are troubling signs, not just in beekeeping but in more dangerous practices with animals and humans. There appears to be little control over the antibiotics used for treating animals (and, it seems, bees). South China is a hotbed of new and interesting viruses infecting animals and humans. SARS is the latest, but Swine flu, Hong Kong flu and many others have spread world wide from that incubation location. It is true that there are many other factors that lead to that (density of people, poultry and pigs), but SARS seems to fit the profile of misused antibiotics. It might not be, but based on what is being found in honey and other food coming out of China, the mis-use of antibiotics seems to be cultural and either not a problem of or encouraged by the government. And that is scary, not just for beekeepers but for the world's population. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vital Gaudreau wrote: > Today, April 17, 2003, Rick writes: >> Just visited 100 hives, 18 or so dead ones, made 40 splits, great >> strength > 1. Rick, could you please explain the idea of *not wrapping* in an area > that reaches easily -10/-15 dF for several days in winter? > Could you be kind enough and explain the kinds of > experiments you have done in the past (good and bad)? This is a puzzle > for me!!! > 3. Those who said that cold does not kill the bees...i suppose here > is the proof...or? Rick's results are in line with pre varroa winter kills, about 20%. Some do better some worse. To wrap or not to wrap is a subject of discussion with adherents on both sides here in Maine, where the temperatures are similar to Northern NY. I do not wrap and have better results than a friend who wraps, but also the same or a bit worse than another who also wraps. The difference, from what I can see, is the one who does better is a better beekeeper than me (I am a "student" of his). The other beekeeper has other practices which I see as the real reasons for his wintering to be not as successful, even though he wraps. I have found that you lose most of your colonies either in the beginning or the end of winter, not during the winter. If they start bad, they usually die early. They might also starve by early spring. We are in a classic early spring period where I expect lots of beekeepers who reported successful overwintering to lose colonies. Bees have been brooding up. We have had nectar and pollen available and they have been bringing it in. They may still be heavy with honey. But this cold (21F this am and only in the 30s during the day) over several days is deadly to bees. They will stay with the brood and are generating heat and burning stores. The cold will keep them away from honey even if it is within a few inches and they have none over them. They starve in a hive filled with honey. Candy placed over them solves that problem. Wrapping may also help, because the black tar paper might warm the hive enough for them to move to the stores in the spring when the temperature outside the hive is above freezing. I paint my hives dark blue to achieve the same results. So there are many variables in what happens from an experiment with tar paper wrap. Most of what I have read says that with winters above an average of 28F wrapping will help, but not when winters are below 28F average. In both cases, you are actually trying to keep them cold. Wrapping tends to keep the temperature more stable over the long run in warmer winters. Do not eat as much so will last longer on the stores available. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:57:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Pure honey In-Reply-To: <001401c30510$111d3bd0$45b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001401c30510$111d3bd0$45b85ad1@Pegasus>, allen dick writes >B.) the proven harmful dose for those individuals who are susceptible > to developing aplastic anemia from the drug. and the chances of individuals getting TB and this drug being unsuccessful at treating it. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:05:38 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Too cold to hive package bees? Jason said: > Does anyone have any advice on when it would be > too cold to hive a package of bees? You could hive them today (Friday), but Saturday would be even easier. See the Boston 10-day forecast below from http://www.weather.com Date Forecast Hi / Lo Rain Chance ---------- ------------- ------- ----------- Fri Apr 18 Mostly Cloudy 44°/34° 10 % Sat Apr 19 Mostly Cloudy 51°/42° 0 % Sun Apr 20 Partly Cloudy 55°/39° 0 % Mon Apr 21 Cloudy 56°/51° 10 % Tue Apr 22 Showers 54°/46° 50 % Wed Apr 23 Showers 55°/43° 40 % Thu Apr 24 Mostly Cloudy 55°/42° 20 % Fri Apr 25 Cloudy 52°/42° 10 % Sat Apr 26 Mostly Cloudy 51°/43° 10 % Sun Apr 27 Mostly Cloudy 52°/44° 20 % > The weather isn't supposed to be real great > for the next few weeks either :-( Highs in the mid-50s are OK. Lows in the 40s are not a significant threat to a package. They will certainly not draw much comb in this weather, but they won't die if they have some sort of feed to tide them over. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Pure honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >In case any one is wondering, "micrograms per kilogram" is >"parts per billion". > And let us remember, should we have forgotten our metric, that 1 microgram is 1 millionth of a gram, and a kilogram is 1000 grams. A paperclip, or a raisin weigh about a gram. A kilo is about 2.2 pounds so we are talking 1 million of a raisin dissolved in 2.2 pounds of cake batter. Wouldn't call it raisin cake. >>B.) the proven harmful dose for those individuals >> who are susceptible to developing aplastic anemia >> from the drug. >> >> > >Well, I think we can all see from the numbers that 400-500 >pounds of honey would have to be consumed to get even >1 milligram of chloramphenicol, and there simply is no >effect from 1 mg of anything except certain deadly poisons >and neurotoxins. Dunno about cumulative effects, but I can't >see how the human body could "store" the stuff. > Chloramphenicol is not stored to any degree in the body and is eliminated by hepatic (liver) metabolism in most species. Gernerally only a small portion gets excreted in the urine unchanged as most is removed by the liver. Livers doing what livers should do. The problem of bone marrow suppression that has most folks atwitter is not a an issue of building toxic levels - it is an individual sensitivity issue. Is the stuff toxic to bone marrow - yes, under the right circumstances. Long term dose dependant bone marrow suppression (reversable) is seen in most species that have beens studied, but this is not the disease most are concerned about as this would not happen with the chinese honey. The thing that really has people upset, amonst other things that keep humans upset, is that in humans there is an idiosyncratic drug-induced aplastic anemia associated with administration of this substance. (It happens in other animals but with far, far lower frequency near as anyone can tell). This phenomenon is considered to be "relatively dose independant" , in reality this means that it appears to occur randomly at a variety of clinically acceptable levels. Some people given low clinical doses got the drug as did some who got higher clinically relevant dosages. There are problems with taking this interpretation too far and stating that this material is going to cause disease at *any* level. No physician would have bothered to have administered micro doses of the material (since it would not work as intended), and standard dosages are multiple orders of magnitude higher than the figures cited by the fine folks at farmaggedon as having been present in the chinese honey. What am I trying to say? Everything has a dose dependance - but the difference between the dose that causes aplastic anemia (in miniscule number of patients susceptable to it) and one that doesn't is likely never to be identified as it is probably well below clinically relevant levels. Is the Chinese honey unsafe? No one *knows.* I suspect it is, but I have zero data to back up the claim. There is also more to this than merely a few molecules of Chloro - but I am also not a political adept and will not wade where the water is clearly over my head. Keith "reporting from the shallow end of the pool" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:58:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I concur with Bill. >I have found that you lose most of your colonies either in the beginning >or the end of winter, not during the winter. If they start bad, they >usually die early. They might also starve by early spring. All my winter loss, too, occurred at the very end of this winter: during the last week of February in Oklahoma. (I lost some to wandering heifers, too, which had tipped off the hives slightly) Normally, bees do not die of cold during winter around here; however, this year we had three nasty consecutive days of deep freeze, with the day time record-breaking temperature of 15 F. Reminding me of my childhood Siberian freeze in Korea, the arctic blast felt as though we were walking right into a deep freezer. The bees, despite abundant stores around them, failed to re- cluster or move about, having been immobilized by this sudden and rare arctic blast—-which often dips all the way down to Galveston, Texas, unimpeded, due to the lack of any mountain range. Normally we have at least one day, if not more, of flight per week during winter. In fact, overall this last winter had been warmer than usual, making me worry, in midway in the winter, about the bees’ consuming more store than otherwise. I had to open-feed some. Summer heat is nasty around here: it can easily boil around and above 100 F, which makes extracting hot yet easy. To assist my bees against the chill and the heat, I now place one-inch thick insulation foam atop each hive, above the outer-cover, weighed down by a square leaf of cement block, thinking that just like our house, the roof probably needs a better R-value. No, I do not have any facts to back up but just my thinking. (Can someone shoot the hives at night with an infrared camera?) I gave SBB to strong colonies only—-for I saw many bees, on traditional bottoms, blocking the entrance to cut down the night draft and chill. It is a bit too early for most of them to be on SBB while rearing brood. One of the best ways to gauge whether the bees need better ventilation is to visit them at night. A well-ventilated colony will seldom make swarmy bee-beard. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: Most of what I have read says that with winters above an average of 28F wrapping will help, but not when winters are below 28F average. I believe Bill has the above backwards. I have done both and if you want a winter with an average temperature above 28F. wrap your bees. Don't wrap your bees and you will many times *it seems* get a very cold winter. Wrapping is standard practice in the colder regions of the world which should explain the benefit in areas of extreme cold and wind chills.. Two years over the last 20 years we had temperatures go to -25 F. at night and rise to -5 F.to -10F. in the day and last for a few days. Many hives did not survive unwrapped. Losses at our bee club were reported as high as 50% in unwrapped hives. My opinion is if you have got the time and want to wrap your bees you are only out time and labor and have provided insurance against the rare extremely cold weather we get every few years. I see little difference between wrapped and unwrapped in a mild winter. I also feel wrapping is not rocket science and as long as wrapping is pulled early causes no harm to the bees. The materials for wrapping are not expensive considering the materials can be used over and over but involves the labor of installing, removing and storing of materials each year. Beekeepers always *it seems* put down any practices they are not currently using. Beekeepers always it seems heap praise on any methods they are currently using. Methods which involve labor are often scoffed at. The way I work my bees in spring is scoffed at by many as a huge waste of time as too labor intensive. Yet Disease and mites are always under control,comb is culled, swarming is kept to a minimum and all hives in the yard are similar in strength. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:14:28 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Bill It is my understanding the Chinese can buy any animal medication over the counter, antibiotics or whatever. No prescription, no vet, no doctor. A large part of the E.U. sanctions (on chickens, honey or whatever) is to get the Chinese Government to tidy this law up, or more correctly get some controls on drug use. This is much more than pure honey. Most beekeepers know about drug resistance in bees but we are talking drug resistance in humans and animals (like chickens) in our food chain. The people imposing sanctions on Chinese foodstuffs are saying "Tidy up your drug laws. Then we can talk about trade". Trade goods are merely a tool to get drug misuse in China stopped. Kevin Gibbs >but SARS seems to fit the profile of misused > antibiotics. It might not be, but based on what is being found in honey > and other food coming out of China, the mis-use of antibiotics seems to > be cultural and either not a problem of or encouraged by the government. > > And that is scary, not just for beekeepers but for the world's population. > > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:19:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Buying and observation hive... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to get an observation hive. I think I could learn a lot from one, and I would like to install it in the area of the front of my property, where customers coming to my flower/honey stand could see the hive. My question is this: if you were buying one, is there a specific one that is better than another. It seeems a 2 frame would be better than a one frame and 3 would be better still. Any input about ones you have or like is appreciated! Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:13:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rick & All, > I wrapped 50 and did nothing to the other 50 a few years ago without any > difference, this satisfied me that they can tolerate cold, I tend to agree with Rick here on this matter to wrap or not. I too have experimented with wrapping some and not wrapping some of the colonies. I do put a 1/2" urethane panel board with foil on one side (foil face down) on top of the inner cover on all the colonies year round. I wrap the colonies with Reflectix http://www.reflectixinc.com/ , I have a picture of one of the colonies that are wrapped with this material on the home page of my web site http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/index.htm . I am still experimenting with this idea to not wrap because every winter is different and I would hate to conclude that colonies need no wrap but so far I tend to think they need no wrap but do need top insulation. I could be wrong and will continue to experiment until I succeed with not wrapping even in one of our -40 degree F. minus winters. This winter I lost 1 out of 6 that was un-wrapped and lost 2 out of 12 that was wrapped. The colonies that were lost were colonies that had problems last fall. I tend to think that colonies should be kept cool in the winter so they do not become active, consuming stores, and begin brooding up earlier than they normally would if allowed to warm up in spring when the outside temperature warms them. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Black Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:53:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Cartwright Subject: Honey Extractors I'm a new beekeeper on Long Island, NY, and I'm wondering about the feasibility of building my own honey extractor. Does anyone know of available design plans? I'm hoping that I don't have to spend another $100+ to order an extractor after making my initial $400 investment on hive equipment and bees. Thanks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Bill said: > Most of what I have read says that with winters above an > average of 28F wrapping will help, but not when winters are below 28F > average. > > I believe Bill has the above backwards. I have done both and if you want a > winter with an average temperature above 28F. wrap your bees. Don't wrap > your bees and you will many times *it seems* get a very cold winter. > > Wrapping is standard practice in the colder regions of the world which > should explain the benefit in areas of extreme cold and wind chills.. All beekeeping is local. I stand by what I said. Wrapping in Minnesota was not as important as using three deeps rather than two (Hive and Honey Bee). Wrapping in Missouri would make sense because the winters are warmer. Wrapping, as I said, helps keep the temp stable in the hive, so in warmer winters (a relative term) wrapping keeps them cold, which is what is wanted. You are not looking to keep the colony warm, but just the opposite. But come spring, the wrapped hive will stay colder so the unwrapped might build up earlier, but that might be counterproductive, since you might end up with sudden cold snaps which could lead to starvation. Wrapping is for both ends of the winter, not the middle. Wrapping is also good to get rid of the holes in any older hive to keep drafts down, but I find my bees patch them up fairly well before winter hits. We have cold winters, but you will find most do not wrap. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:34:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin Gibbs wrote: >Thanks Bill >It is my understanding the Chinese can buy any animal medication over the >counter, antibiotics or whatever. No prescription, no vet, no doctor. > One can do much the same thing in Mexico. Go to San Diego, cross the boarder. Go to a pharmacy. Ask for metronidazole or ciprofloxacin - you will receive the meds no problemo. >>but SARS seems to fit the profile of misused >>antibiotics. >> Nope - Sars is a virus, and has nothing to do with resistant bacteria - at least according to the fine investigative reporting on NPR. Search for SARS, coronavirus. >> It might not be, but based on what is being found in honey >>and other food coming out of China, the mis-use of antibiotics seems to >>be cultural and either not a problem of or encouraged by the government. >> It is largely an economic issue. I know Americans who take poor care of their pets and their livestock beacuse they cannot or will not afford a veterinarian. Quick - show of hands - how many people put Oxytetracycline in their hives this year Counting . . . . . lots. How many used a veterinarian to determine that they needed to? Wow - feel the breeze created by so many hands dropping? >>And that is scary, not just for beekeepers but for the world's population. >> Ditto . . . . . misuse of antimicrobials anywhere affects us all - whether you do it in China, or the US. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Lost swarm In-Reply-To: <200304180400.h3I401Dd018294@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lost a nice size swarm a few days ago. I think I was in too much of a hurry. Situation: a swarm of bees about the size of a basketball around the trunk of a crab apple sapling about five feet off the ground. I placed an open super on a bottom board with drawn comb with sprinkled sugar water in the combs. I then shook the sapling hard and had a bunch of bees fall down into the box. I then placed a migratory top on top of the super and watched. The bees that had fallen in front of the entrance started running into the hive. About 2/3 of the cluster was still stuck to the trunk of the sapling. After watching about five minutes and observing some very, very short waggle dances on the surface of the swarm I decided to shake the tree a couple more times. Upon about the third shake the remaining cluster of bees erupted into the air and slowly vanished into the woods north of the cluster location. I immediately surmised the queen with the rest of the swarm were moving to a less molested location. Upon recovery of the super two days later no bees were left in it. The rest of the bees had either located the original swarm and rejoined it or they returned to the site where the cluster originated. In any case a nice, approximately five pound swarm of bees was lost. Lessons learned: 1) Probably should have stopped after the first shake and hoped the rest of the swarm joined the bees that were already in the box. 2) Should have sprayed the swarm on the tree heavily with water to preclude the swarm flying away and then tried to shake the rest of the swarm into the box. Any other suggestions? Mike Stoops South central Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Lost swarm There are very few things that one can say about swarms that would apply to all swarms and all cases, but I'd suggest that the branch might have been supported by a helper while you sawed it off, and then placed it (with care) on (or in) the hive body or transport container. Any branch that you can "shake" you can also saw off with a bow saw (a handy item to bring on swarm calls). Of course, finding someone to hold the branch can be a problem, even when it can be shown that the swarm is harmless at close range. That's why you need a 250 coil of rope to toss over another branch and use to support both ends of the branch to be cut. But swarms on branches are never there for the long term, so quick action is required before they get organized, and fly off to their selected site. If the branch is low, I will take one of a collection of cardboard boxes, and "enclose" the swarm with the box before shaking the bees into the box. I rarely bother with woodenware hives for swarm collection. Cardboard boxes with a frame of old brood comb jammed into one end are all I use. Much lighter, and easier to hoist up to the swarm with yet more rope (passed through holes cut in the cardboard). I prepare boxes by taping some window screen over a hole I cut in one flap of the box-top for ventilation. Then I capture the swarm and tape the box closed. I never give them the option of leaving. When I "shake" branches, I do it with a very hard swing of a 4-lb short-handled sledge hammer. The impact needs to be both abrupt and excessive if you want to dislodge all the bees (and the queen) in one swell foop. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rent before you build a contraption that can not be sold when you grow or quit. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:00:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Buying and observation hive... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, An Observation hive is not only a fantastic sales help, but it TEACHES, not only the observers, but more particularly YOU. The more YOU watch carefully what going on, the more you LEARN, and the better you can ANSWER the question of the buying public. Trying to sell honey without an observation hive is SILLY - you might as well direct them to the nearest grocery store and tell them to buy the cheapest With an observation hive and INTELLIGENT answers from YOU regarding customers questions, your honey can COMMAND a price near double that of the grocery store; and you MAKE FRIENDS who appreciate your knowledge and with send new customers to get some of your LOCALLY PRODUCED SPECIAL HONEY An Observation Hive is a "pain in the fanny" to manage and look nice. It is so small, that a new young queen will lay so much that the bees are always swarming. I always insert some old queen in my observation hives rather than kill them, so that brood production is minimal. The queen MUST BE MARKED, so visitors can find her. The BIGGER the Observation Hive, the better it is, but NEVER, NEVER wider than one frame, because then the queen can get in between two frames and the visitors can't find her. My particular preference is an observation hive using 4 medium, 6 5/8", frames, since all my colonies are ALL medium frames for both brood and super frames. If you are using Deep frames, I suggest 2 deep frames and one medium frame in your Observation hive. All the supply companies sell Observation hives. Since it is a lifetime investment, look at all and chose wisely. Telephone Brushy Mountain Farm at 1-800-BEESWAX for their free catalog and look at page 83 for 2 nice examples. Hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something you also may want to do is keep an eye out for auctions. I have purchased 3 at auction and there is an auction coming up next Saturday with another. Most are usable and from hobby beekeepers who have, as Rick says, grown or gotten out of beekeeping. There is a beekeeper in my area that, due to age related health issues is getting out of beekeeping and liquidating his equipment. I will check on that to see if I can upgrade. There is an upcoming beekeeping consignment auction in North East Ohio coming up in May. There are a lot of hobby extractors out there, you just have to look. A "Wanted, Honey Extractor" in a rural newspaper may also bring results as a lot of these smaller extractors are forgotten in the back of a barn or a garage attic. Just a few thoughts. Happy Beekeeping. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:51:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Lost swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any other suggestions? A swarm is a swarm until the queen sets up house keeping. Until you get the queen or queens in the swarm box they are liable to leave. Many times you can hive a swarm only to come back the next day to find they are gone. The old timers would say to rub the branches of a peach tree on the inside of a hive you plan to put a swarm in. I use a small piece of old queen excluder across the entrance for a couple days until the queen sets up house keeping. Beekeeping story: I picked up a swarm once and tossed the swarm container in the back of my pickup truck and stopped at a Wal-Mart for a few minutes. When I came out I noticed a commotion. I asked what the problem was. A fellow told me there was a swarm of bees on a shopping cart. Hmmm. Sure enough my swarm had escaped through a small hole about the size of a bee and was on the shopping cart. One of the people noticed the beekeeping sign on the truck and asked if I could help. Sure I said and put the swarm back in the swarm box (with a piece of duck tape over the escape hole). Everybody was grateful for me catching the swarm and said it was lucky I happened along. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:16:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Buying and observation hive... George said: > An Observation Hive is a "pain in the fanny" to manage and look nice. This may well be true of the one-frame-wide type of observation hive, as these are simply too small to create a colony with any future. About the best I could suggest for these would be to rig a plastic queen excluder to restrict the queen to the uppermost "medium", thus limiting her laying area. But I don't use one-frame-wide observation hives. I set up several every April, and don't even visit them more than once a month. In Fall, I take them down and move them to "winter quarters", standard woodenware in one of my yards with frames of honey donated from other hives. > It is so small, Only if you think small and build small. > that a new young queen will lay so much Only if you fail to restrict the queen to a limited area, a classic error with drastic consequences. > that the bees are always swarming. Never had a swarm yet. Never even had a swarm cell. I was paranoid the first year, and checked weekly. > I always insert some old queen in my observation hives rather than > kill them, so that brood production is minimal. Me too - a "retirement plan" for queens that are known to have "spotty" or "slow" laying patterns. Not just any "old" queen will do - some "old" queens have impressive egg-laying abilities. You want to verify that you have a "lousy layer". It is also a nice way to "save" a colony that one would otherwise combine in spring due to low population numbers. As long as the colony is not mite-infested, you have an excellent ob-hive colony at "zero" cost. An easy-to-make, easy-to-ignore observation hive can be made from 2 nuc boxes and one "spare" nuc. Just cut holes in the sides of each for "floor to ceiling" glass windows, mounting the glass so it is flush with the inner (not the outer!) surface of the hive body. Remove the inner cover plywood (or masonite) on one nuc, and replace it with 8-mesh stapled to both sides of the frame, and then screwed into pre-drilled holes in the nuc body. (No outer cover is used on any of the nucs.) Then cut a groove in the front, rear, and bottom to allow one to insert a cut section of one of the newer plastic queen excluders just behind the frame facing the front "window". The queen is thereby restricted to the frame closest to the "window", which solves 99% of your problems. I use two nuc boxes (using medium frames) with 2-inch clear plastic tubing and twin pivoting "airlock" doors on each end of the tubing. The second nuc also has "picture windows", and is loaded with foundation to keep the bees busy drawing comb. When they finish drawing comb, the "airlock" doors are closed to prevent bees from escaping into the room, the nuc is swapped with another that was been pre-loaded with more foundation, and the "drawn" nuc is taken outside near the entrance, set on the ground, and the "airlock" is opened to allow the bees to return to the hive. The "comb drawing" nucs have solid (inner cover) tops with a large hole cut in the center slightly larger than a screw-on cap for a feeding bottle, with 8-mesh stapled to the inner surface. This allows early/late season feeding with a small (16 oz) feeder jar. All components are screwed down to a sturdy base. The airlock doors are "locked" into their open positions with firmly-driven flat thumbtacks. Kids will fiddle with everything, and an ob hive needs to be bullet-proof, idiot-proof, and vandal-proof. Note that all operations described above can be performed by the retailer, since none of them involve any direct contact with bees. I can come by with more frames of foundation, and "reload" a "drawn" nuc any old time, and so can an intelligent retailer, once the bees have evacuated a "drawn" nuc placed outside (most often, overnight will do). I also use the 2-inch clear tubing and "airlock" style doors for the entrance. My entrances run as high as possible, so that the bees exit/enter well above human height. One needs to suspend some clothesline from the entrance down through the entrance tubing so that the less acrobatic/intelligent bees have something to climb that is less slippery than the plastic tubing. But bees learn quickly, and most will climb on the surface of the tubing within a week. Now, sometimes, the queen is on the far side of "her" frame, but this is a small price to pay for an observation hive that can be left in the care of a civilian for months at a time. If one wanted to get very fancy, one could rig the queen excluder to keep her on the "glass side" of a single frame. You would have to both surround the frame with carefully cut queen excluder material run into grooves in both the frame and the hive body, and load the frame itself with Plasticell or a cut sheet of queen excluder material sandwiched between two sheets of foundation to deal with the scenario where the bees might attempt to chew through the foundation of the "queen's frame". Another nice thing to have is a large "flip book" made from the Dadant "study prints" http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=244 hanging near the observation hive. If you reproduce the text from the back of the prints on stickers that you put in one corner of each print, it is a great way to make the observation hive a "self service teaching tool". One state park visitor center even framed the prints and hung them on the wall behind the hive to make an entire corner the "bee center". With 10 frames, one can even end up in fall with a colony that has gathered most of its own winter stores, ready to toss into 2 or 3 mediums for over-wintering. In Virginia, that is. Your winter mileage may vary... jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:37:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lost swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Why did you sprinkle sugar water on the combs? Swarming bees are already "stuffed" with honey, so sugar water is NO attraction. Think about it - right after eating a big Thanksgiving dinner with all the many goodies, you are "stuffed" and probably would turn down another slice of pumpkin pie ala mode. There are two things that one should not use on a swarm: sugar syrup (honey) or smoke. Neither of these result in the desired effect of the beekeeper. One SUPER GREAT ATTRACTION to all swarms is a frame of OPEN BROOD. Go in one of you hives, find a frame with UNcapped larvae and eggs, press it carefully against the swarm, and you will be amazed how quickly the bees AND QUEEN will gather on that frame. Then just put that in your box, and all the other bees will quickly join. Hope I have helped! George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:19:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18 April Bill Truesdell wrote: "It does not matter if it [antibiotic] is in ppm or ppb. Why is it there in the first place?" The 'why' has been a concern to UK beekeepers. Antibiotics imply teatment for disaese - which ones, and how is the anti administered? If the dose was too small to kill the disease, and perhaps deliberately just as a suppressant, imported hnoney (and blended honey) could also import disease spores. Bees cleaning out discarded jars could bring infection back to hives. It would be good if at least honey jars had a label " Honey is attractive to bees and other good insects. Please wash out this jar before disposal" . But they generally don't. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:11:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Allen Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many local beekeeping clubs have loaner hand extractors. Also, they are a good source for used equipment and information for beginning beekeepers. Bob Allen San Antonio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:53:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Lost swarm In-Reply-To: From: Mike Stoops > Lessons learned: 1) Probably should have stopped after the first shake > and hoped the rest of the swarm joined the bees that were already in the > box. 2) Should have sprayed the swarm on the tree heavily with water to > preclude the swarm flying away and then tried to shake the rest of the > swarm into the box. You can't shake or disturb bees too much in the daytime, especially if it's a "nervous" swarm. Spraying them with water won't stop them from flying. The activity and the dancing on the surface of the swarm indicates the scouts already had a spot in mind, and were enticing them to go. Your disturbance caused more enticement. It's more reliable to capture swarms in the evening, so that you finish up about dark. This runs the risk of them leaving before dark of course, but, if they have already decided on a place to go, you can't even stop them by hiving them. I've taken nervous swarms home, and have them leave at daybreak. Since the spot of their choice is now unfindable, they would have to pitch again and repeat the search, so they may be doomed. Remember that swarms are quite vulnerable. All the resources they have are in their stomachs. Besides catching them at dusk (or before daylight, as I just did this morning) give them a frame of open brood to increase the odds that they will stay with you. Last night I noticed another humungous swarm high in the trees. Since we had an engagement last night I could not return, but we were there before daylight this morning. The tree was only about 3 inches in diameter, so it was an easy cut with the chain saw, lay the tree down carefully, then set the hive with one frame of open brood and 9 frames of foundation right against the cluster. One I caught that way 3 days ago has already drawn most of the foundation. If the weather is poor this next week, I'll go back and give them a frame of honey. But this is the middle of our spring flow, so if they have decent weather, they should be OK. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:51:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Pure Honey In-Reply-To: <002c01c30652$3b087200$8187bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Christine Gray > On 18 April Bill Truesdell wrote: "Why is it there in the first place?" > > The 'why' has been a concern to UK beekeepers. Antibiotics imply teatment > for disaese - which ones, and how is the anti administered? If > the dose was > too small to kill the disease, and perhaps deliberately just as a > suppressant, imported hnoney (and blended honey) could also import disease > spores. This is more what beekeepers should be concerned about. Not just disease, but disease that was resistant to other, more acceptable antibiotics (even the Chinese would, presumably, not use a more expensive drug when a cheaper one was available). If AFB was so prevalent in their hives constant (presumably when honey supers were on, or just before, to get measurable contamination) antibiotic treatment is necessary to suppress symptoms and Chloramphenicol was required to suppress it, what would that do to beekeeping in you area when some beekeeper picks up a few barrels and uses it to feed his yards (since it is much cheaper than his own honey)? In most areas, this would mean lots of burned hives (for those following the law in those countries), but in the US some useless treatment with antibiotics (perhaps even not with "approved" antibiotics). TN has just lost its state Apiarist (joining several other states in this sad state) and his previous supervisor will assume his duties in addition to those of his "regular" job (if this guy was so needed he survived out 9% state budget cut, how much free time will he have to inspect hives?). The new policy in TN will be to treat hives, rather than burn (perhaps the real reason our Apiarist is out). As to the residue levels in honey being too low to cause symptoms in those with Chloramphenicol issues, that is probably true. However, those low levels may be just the thing to rush resistance to Chloramphenicol among many different bacteria, not just TB. Environmental exposure to low level antibitics plays a big role in resistance, not just failure to properly take a full run of antibitics by patients. (Ignoring, of course, the work done that showed antibiotic resistant bacteria showing up in the gut of animals and humans fed GMO crops that had the antibiotic-resistant marker genes -- only those humans who had partial colon removals had the gene survive the entire digestive tract. Perhaps it is not paranoia on the part of those that saw a large correlation between areas where AFB became antibiotic restant and areas with immense fields of GMO crops pollinated by honey bees.) Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:56:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, On 18 April Bill Truesdell wrote: "It does not matter if it [antibiotic] is in ppm or ppb. Why is it there in the first place?" Robin said: The 'why' has been a concern to UK beekeepers. Antibiotics imply teatment for disaese - which ones, and how is the anti administered? Many USDA people report China is puzzled about the source of the contamination. I guess the source of contamination of the whole honey production of a country might be hard to determine. I don't think so! Several beekeepers have told me the antibiotic was used in the production of beet sugar and then the beet sugar product was feed to the bees as feed and caused the contamination (* not verifiable information and only gleaned by beekeeper talk at national bee meetings*). I am really surprised the beekeeping world has not been given direct information by the Chinese as to the source of the contamination . I am also surprised the bee labs have not commented on how the antibiotic came to be found in honey. All the USDA people have said at talks I have attended that the antibiotic was found and they did not see a hive treatment with the antibiotic would cure foulbrood or any other *known* bee problem. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:43:55 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: physics involved Rick Green fumed: > Why is it so difficult to get a smoker started but > you often find it still producing a steady stream > of smoke the next morning! "Modern" smokers are a very obtuse mix of engineering compromises, but it should be blindingly obvious to anyone who can spell "Bernoulli" that no actual engineers or physicists have ever participated in the design of any variation on "the bee smoker". If you look at your smoker, you will see that the bellows air feed is at the bottom of the smoker. "Why?" Is the appropriate question for the astute student. The more experienced folks with sheepskins on the wall might go further, and conclude that the designer of the smoker was himself smoking something unusual himself when making the design sketches. Forcing air into the bottom of the smoker is not a very good approach, in that it "blows out" many of the glowing embers like birthday candles, while turning some into little flame throwers. In contrast, letting the smoker "sit" reduces the air intake to what the fire "needs". The smoldering heats air, which rises due to convection, goes out the smoker spout, drawing fresh air in through the bottom hole at a much slower rate, more appropriate to "smoldering". The physical limits on the problem are: - Actual flames make for LESS smoke. - More air makes more flames. - Less air makes more smoke. Thermodynamics - what fun! :) There used to be a style of smoker known as the "cool blast" smoker, where the bellows air-feed was nearer the top of the smoker body. This "top" versus "bottom" feed was a big difference, since the "top" style does not feed enough air to get the initial fire "going" at the bottom of the smoker, but it does reduce the chances of shooting flames (or super-heated smoke) at one's bees. I'd guess that the "cool blast" smokers died out due to problems with "getting them lit". But the "modern" smoker with the bottom air intake ALSO actually works against you every time you pump the bellows: a) You want to "blow some smoke" on a specific point. b) So, you pump the bellows once or twice. Big mistake. c) The bellows forces lots of air into the combustion process, turning smoldering stuff into flaming stuff. d) Whatever smoke was in the top part of the smoker is forced out, but if you look, you will see a "thicker" stream of smoke easing out of the spout AFTER you pump the bellows. e) The problem is that the smoke passively wafting from the spout has no force behind it, and goes any way the wind blows, rather than where you want it to go. f) So, you pump the bellows again, hoping that your actions will somehow result in a "different, better" result than it did the last time. g) It won't. h) Lather, rinse, repeat. i) Repeating the same actions again and again, hoping for a different outcome is the working definition of insanity (and a serious obsessive-compulsive disorder). The result of letting the smoker "sit" is that the fire may die out, or may build up over a seemingly random period of time. If the fire was "going good", and still has sufficient unburnt fuel, letting it "sit" is similar to what happens when you load up a woodstove, and "damper it" before you go to bed. The fuel will not burn so rapidly due to reduced oxygen flow, but likely will not die. Even the act of picking it up after a period of sitting might get it "started" again. While the odds of "dying out" should be 50/50, I'd guess that one would tend to recall the cases when the smoker kept going, and ignore the cases when the smoker went out, so your impression may be more selective memory than an actual trend. On the other hand, the basic physics of the situation tend to support your observation. Another significant issue is the use of the "little" 7-inch smokers by most beekeepers. These things are a cruel joke. The smaller size fuel chamber is combined with a spout, bellows, and air intake almost EXACTLY THE SAME SIZE as the larger smokers. The result is similar to what happens when I floor the pedal on my '72 MG Midget, which is has dual Webber carbs (and only a 1.2 liter mill, bored out to 1.4). The operative phrase here is "more throat than engine". Like my MG, the smaller smokers have an "oversized" air intake relative to the size of the combustion chamber. Now, if your goal is to combust all the fuel as quickly as possible and smoke a balding baby boomer with a pony tail, a terminal case of testosterone poisoning, and a Porsche in "stoplight drag racing", this is a Good Thing(TM). But you want to smoke bees, not baby boomers, so you DON'T want things to burn much at all. You want smoldering. You want smoke, and very little fire, if any. But the smaller smokers will burn all their fuel very quickly if pumped with vigor by a beekeeper trying to "get it going". So, first you light it and get it smoking, and then you must load more fuel before you can actually use the darned thing. Kind of like the old F-14s, that used so much fuel taking off and "getting there", that a mid-air tanker refueling was often required simply to reach mission targets. So, what to do? 1) Get a bigger smoker, and use your little one as an attractive hive tool and pencil holder. Wives love such "decorative" touches, and a smoker goes nicely with any decor. :) 2) Save wine corks, whittle one end down a bit, and stick it in the spout to "snuff" the smoker when you are done with it. 3) Start the fire with a small amount of fuel, and "load up" the combustion chamber only after the fire is going. 4) Take up a collection, send me the money, and I will design the first smoker that not only obeys, but exploits the laws of physics currently being fought by existing and historical designs, and hand the design to the EAS for licensing to who ever makes smokers. (Who actually makes these things? Tinsmiths transported by time machine from the 15th century? The guys who did Jack Haley's costume for "The Wizard of Oz"? The sheet metal shop that used to make fenders for Hudsons?) 5) Or, keep your existing smoker, and simply light it the day BEFORE you need it. As you have apparently stumbled upon a methodology that works consistently, why complain? :) jim (Who generates more heat than light, and produces much smoke about many subjects for your enjoyment.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Several beekeepers have told me the antibiotic was used in the production of > beet sugar and then the beet sugar product was feed to the bees as feed and > caused the contamination (* not verifiable information and only gleaned by > beekeeper talk at national bee meetings*). Which, if true makes the problem even worse, since it is in the whole society and everyone is eating it as sugar. If it is only at those low levels in honey then the concentration must be fairly significant in beet sugar, unless they are using beet sugar to adulterate the honey! All this is supposition, but does indicate the low level of regulation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: 1st hive appears to be a success MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to the list my first hive appears to be a success. I put the package in Thursday night and Friday afternoon the front entrance was alive with activity. Today there was a lot of activity in front of the hive - lots of bees swirling around within 3 feet of the entrance. I could tell that lots of them had to "go" because there are a lot of brown spots here and there. The weather should be even warmer tomorrow so they should be able to get a good solid footing soon. I have another package arriving late next week for the second hive. It is about 5 feet away from the other hive. The bees from the first hive have definitely been looking around the 2nd one but I have all of the entrances closed up. You can see them flying around via some video I took with my camera: http://boxborough.digistar.us/~jsb/bees/frontbees.wmv Thanks, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:23:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: physics involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17 April Rick Green asked:" Why is it so difficult to get a smoker started but you often find it still > producing a steady stream of smoke the next morning!" > > The problem is that for fire to be self-sustaining the mass has to be at a high temperature - and a small heat conducting metal tube is a crude tool. Managing a smoker can be as difficult as managing bees. Old time European smokers had a large tube and a clockwork fan to keep them smoldering. I wish someone would produce a new one - with the tube of some insulating material and not metal. Every beekeepers has his own tricks. Here are mine. 1 Heat the tube up first by crumpling newspaper, lighting and pushing in lightly. Let it flame up. Add a second crumpled ball. While still well alight, add a ball of damp dry grass - my favorite fuel as it is easily found. Pump away to get the grass warmed to combustion temperature. The grass needs to have been dried, then slightly damped. I keep a large plastic bucket full. When started, ram in more grass quite tight, pumping as u go. 2 To get smoke, give several long slow pumps away from the bees - then puff the continuing smoke dribble very gently over the top bars. 3 When finished, fill the smoker hard with grass and put it away inside the grass bucket and snap on the airtight lid. This stops smoke smell getting into the car. The fire dies down as the oxgen runs out in the bucket but the smoker cools only slowly. It will often come alive again at the next site after a 30 minutes drive, just by puffing. One day I will cut a hole in the bottom with a detachable cover, so I can start it with a DIY blowlamp. But I am not a metalworker. Have had so much frustration over the years with smokers - would love to hear how others cope. Robin Dartington > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 07:57:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: physics involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > Have had so much frustration over the years with smokers - would love to > hear how others cope. Pine needles. In every smoker contest (lite in one minute, let sit for five, puff for one minute and let sit for 20. Then test for amount and coolness of smoke) we have had at our State Annual Picnic, the winner (with one exception) used pine needles for fuel. They burn slow, long and cool smoke. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:23:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Apr 2003 to 18 Apr 2003 (#2003-109) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/04/03 05:05:11 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << SARS seems to fit the profile of misused antibiotics. It might not be, but based on what is being found in honey and other food coming out of China, the mis-use of antibiotics seems to be cultural and either not a problem of or encouraged by the government. >> Unlikely. SARS is believed to be caused by a virus and therefore would not be affected by the use or misuse of antibiotics. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:37:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison wrote: > > > Several beekeepers have told me the antibiotic was used in the production of > > beet sugar Why? are there bacterial diseases of sugar beet, there are some bacterial diseases of plants but few of them produce economic loss. could this be an urban myth in the making? Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:51:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Buying an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/04/03 05:05:11 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << >> Kathy, An observation hive is a very stressful and unnatural environment for bees. On the other hand they are a very useful tool for the beekeeper to observe what bees do under these conditions and relate it to what they do in more normal circumstances. I have built, but not yet put into use, a compromise version which consists of a lower stratum which is a 4 frame nuc on a mesh floor. The upper stratum is a single frame between perspex walls and to which the bees have access through a strip of queen excluder. There is provision for feeding from the top. The finger sided entrance hole has a closure that can be padlocked shut. This for use when moving or exhibiting it to avoid accidents. In use a frame of interest, usually the one with the queen, is exchanged with one of the four from below. and placed in the observation storey. A sheet of white card can be placed under the mesh floor to see what drops and therefore give some insight into what is happening in the hidden parts above. There is a similar version in Thornes' catalogue (on line) but it doesn't have my added design features and costs a small fortune. I build mine from scrap except for the perspex which I bought. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:56:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/04/03 05:05:11 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Honey Extractors I'm a new beekeeper on Long Island, NY, and I'm wondering about the feasibility of building my own honey extractor. >> If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have bought an extractor as a beginner. They are expensive, bulky, and are used only on a few days in a year, remaining idle the rest of the time. So I suggest you get your local bee club to buy an extractor to share and to be stored on somebody else's premises and in the meantime go for the more profitable comb honey until you have sold enough for the bees, not you, to pay for the extractor. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:25:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Pure Honey "Why? are there bacterial diseases of sugar beet, there are some bacterial diseases of plants but few of them produce economic loss. could this be an urban myth in the making?" Yes, I wondered about that. There are bacterial cankers on things like Walnuts, and Fire Blight on Pears and some other Rose family members and some others, but even then you don't treat with antibiotics, at least not that I've ever heard. What's the AFB and/or EFB situation in China? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:44:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Transition I posted this on Allen's forum of one of my bees bringing in pollen. http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/brininginpollen.html The odd thing is, she stopped on the landing board, and began fanning. So my question is, which stage in a bee's life comes first, fanning or pollen gathering? Perhaps she was in transition? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Spring cleaning Here's a close up of one of my bees cleaning the landing board that I thought the list might enjoy. http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/beescleaning.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison wrote: > > > Several beekeepers have told me the antibiotic was used in the production of > > beet sugar Phil said: Why? are there bacterial diseases of sugar beet, there are some bacterial diseases of plants but few of them produce economic loss. I do not know about the bacterial disease of the sugar beet. Maybe others on the list will comment with greater knowledge of the subject. I had doubts about the stories when I was first told at the national meetings . Reason I have waited three months to tell the list to see if the sugar beet story would go away. While I was in California a few weeks ago I was again told the same sugar beet story by beekeepers. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:24:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: cognant.mike@BTCONNECT.COM Subject: Re: Buying an observation hive In-Reply-To: <164.1f21032f.2bd3f1cb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Apr 2003 at 8:51, CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: >> I have built, but not yet put into use, a compromise version which consists > of a lower stratum which is a 4 frame nuc on a mesh floor. The upper stratum > is a single frame between perspex walls and to which the bees have access > through a strip of queen excluder. Dear all Our Association has a similar hive, but we have found it difficult to use effectively for more than an hour or two at most. Being shut in, the bees get incresingly frantic and start to run round on the comb. Putting the nucleus along side another colony and then moving the nucleus colony to another spot in the apiary the day before use does help to reduce the number of flying bees. We have also found temperature control to be a problem. Water dropped in frequently through the mesh top on top of the 'visible' part of the hive helps to control this to some extent. For more extended use in a day I suggest that you would need another colony in a second nucleus nearby, with a changeover from one colony to the other for the observation colony. The most successful application appears to be with just the singel frame of bees including the queen in the visible section, with a frame feeder, but no more bees down in the box below. The absence of bees below keeps the temperature down as well. Having covered the difficulties, such a set up is a terrific attraction for on-lookers at a show. Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorks UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wondered about that. There are bacterial cankers on things like Walnuts, and Fire Blight on Pears and some other Rose family members and some others, but even then you don't treat with antibiotics, at least not that I've ever heard. Streptomycin is commonly used for fireblight. Streptomycin has been found in U.S. honey. The USDA is puzzeled by the finding as they say that Streptomycin does not work for bee diseases. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:41:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Early Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "As I understand it, while each sperm from an individual drone, being haploid, will be identical the drones themselves, having been produced from a diploid queen, multiply mated usually, will differ one from another." Chris I've been gone a week, so I am reading a lot of e-mails long after most of you have moved on. I stand corrected on this point, but I think my point had more to do with what drones have to pass on to their progeny, and perhaps to the queen herself. Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:07:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Why? are there bacterial diseases of sugar beet, there are some bacterial diseases of plants but few of them produce economic loss. could this be an urban myth in the making?" > > Yes, I wondered about that. There are bacterial cankers on things like Walnuts, and Fire Blight on Pears and some other Rose family members and some others, but even then you don't treat with antibiotics, at least not > that I've ever heard. What's the AFB and/or EFB situation in China? Just letting you know that fire blight attacks several species of trees, like apples, hawthorns, as well as pears, and bacteria populations are monitored in commercial orchards, and treated with an antibiotic when needed. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Chinese "Antibiotic" Contaimination and "Sugar Beets" Bob Harrison said: > Several beekeepers have told me the antibiotic was used > in the production of beet sugar I'm all ready for some 30-odd folks (some odder than others) to show up for Easter feasting and merriment, so I can answer this one... That was a >>>DIFFERENT<<< chemical found in Chinese honey. That was "Chlordimeform", rather than "Chloramphenicol". I was responsible for making the original statement about "sugar beets" in regard to Chlordimeform to a person who shall remain nameless, but would never have gotten his chemical names mixed up. I was asked what I knew about Chlordimeform by this person a while ago. (I forget exactly when.) Others hearing/repeating the story over time may have confused their chemicals, an understandable error, given the wide variety of unusual chemicals found in honey from China over the years. :) Here is the official source document: http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia9908.html Do a search within the web page for "honey", and you'll see that quite a few cases of Chlordimeform contamination were detected in the 1990s in honey from China. This escaped most people's notice. Dunno why. Chlordimeform is nasty. A carcinogen. Chlordimeform is a very old pesticide, one that was banned most places in the 1970s. It is hard to imagine the resurrection of such a chemical purely for apiary use, I offered (and still offer) three possible scenarios: a) China may have stumbled upon a warehouse that had some "old stock". b) China may have simply bought some from either Ciba Geigy (Switzerland) or Schering AG (Germany). It appears that both companies started making this known carcinogen and selling it to "third world nations" under the trade names "Galecron" and "Fundal". (No idea why.) c) China may have made their own - it would not be hard to make. While such a pesticide might be (mis)used in an attempt to control bee mites, it would not work very well, and therefore, would not be "popular" with beekeepers, let alone a chemical that might be used enough to show up in massive shipments of honey. But one is forced to wonder how it got in the honey. Elementary, my dear Watson - think of what Chlordimeform was GOOD for... The single most popular use for chlordimeform when it was in common use was to combat "spider mites" on sugar beets. It was very effective against these very common pests of sugar beets. My conclusion was (and still is) that the chlordimeform was NOT used on honey bee colonies, but was instead used on sugar beets in China to fight spider mites, and showed up in "honey" only because the "honey" was, ummm... ...not pure honey. jim (who works the day shift at the Idea Factory, even on some holidays) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Buying and observation hive... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Because the post is titled "buying and Observation Hive" I would suggest the OB made and sold by Draper's Super Bee 1-402-274-3725 if wanting what I consider the best OB hive on the market today. . A picture of the OB hive is on page 8 of the 2003 catalog. Call for a free catalog. We have used the "Ultimate Observation Hive" ( as named in catalog) for many years for many beekeeping events. Bees are kept all season in these with little problems. The Draper ob hive has a locking door which opens on the front for easy access to the frames, comes stained and varnished, can be transported, A ball bearing base makes it easy to turn around to find the queen and is set up to hook to the outside. The add claims bees can be kept in the hive year around but we always install in spring and return the colony to a hive to winter in Missouri. Various combinations of frames can be used. I use three deeps but the picture in the catalog shows two deeps and two shallows (I believe). The Draper OB hive measures 40 " tall by 30" wide. In all fairness I need to add the changes I would make to the ultimate OB hive. 1. I would add a feeder system of which I have seen two made for the hive. A. A small hole drilled to accept a bear in the top B. A boardman feeder type setup made for his Draper hive by Cecil Sweeny of Mid Con in the base. All of the above modifications are easily done. Honey and water can be dripped through the slots in the top which is the way we do at various events which works. Water is usually all we add as honey is used up vary slowly in the hive. 2. I would add a pin so you do not need to stand and keep kids from spinning the hive at events when unattended. I have seen kids give the bees a real ride at times with their parents standing by watching I might add. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:41:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Winter survival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wrapping tends to keep the temperature more stable over the long run > in warmer winters. Do not eat as much so will last longer on the > stores available. In my experience, most strong, healthy hives will usually survive just fine without wraps. Most years. Maybe 9 out of 10 hives, and 8 out of 10 years. Feeling lucky? HOWEVER, in areas with cold winters like ours, proper wrapping can reduce feed consumption, make the difference between life and death for smaller or weaker hives (we don't always know in the fall, which ones will need some help), ensure better condition in spring -- even for strong hives, and reduce stress on the bees in early spring. We seldom see any nosema (and we do look). IMO, the major benefit from wrapping ofen comes at a time when some eager beekeepers have already unwrapped their hives! As for a 20% loss, for us, that is high, even away up here in Alberta, and we do not check our hives much after June. We wrap anything that made honey and has enough bees to look normal: in other words, anything that is not obviously dead or dying, so our true winter loss is more likely around 5-8%. But, we wrap everything and keep it wrapped until the gardeners are seeding frost-sensitive plants. There was a carefully thought-out series on that topic in Bee Culture last fall, and the writer explains what is really killing a lot of bees. Yup, it's not mites, nosema, mice, or any of the usual culprits that are to blame, it's beekeepers and their favourite manipulations. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:09:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin asked: Have had so much frustration over the years with smokers - would love to hear how others cope. I experience little problem with smokers. Lighting the smoker is simple if you follow my advice. Light a small piece of paper in the chamber. When totally engulfed in flames stuff the fuel in slowly and puff. I use a spent shotgun shell to plug my smokers but a carved wood stick works nicely. I find laying the smoker on its side helps with keeping the fire going and turning the smoker so the wind is drafting helps also. I have got a homemade smoker box on one of the trucks and am considering putting smoker boxes on all. Never a problem with fire or smoke. I am thinking of ordering a couple smoker boxes from Walter Kelley ( 1-800-233-2899). The smoker boxes are on page 21 of their 2003 catalog. I mention Walter Kelley as I have never seen the smoker boxes in any other catalog. The Kelley smoker box will hold both the 4"x7" or one 4" x 10 " size smoker. I prefer the 4" x 10" smoker but use both. If making a homemade box I would make the box to hold two smokers plus fuel such as my homemade box does as many times two beekeepers work together. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Pure Honey In-Reply-To: <200304201325.h3KDPTCx001396@listserv.albany.edu> From: Tim Vaughan > Yes, I wondered about that. There are bacterial cankers on things like > Walnuts, and Fire Blight on Pears and some other Rose family members and > some others, but even then you don't treat with antibiotics, at least not > that I've ever heard. FWIW, Streptomycin is used for fireblight control on apples and pears, particlulary if there is a hailstorm, which serves to spread it rapidly. I think there is a maximum number of hours growers have to get it applied, or new infections will crop up. There is no cure, once infected, except amputation of the infected part of the trees. Some growers with a past history of fire blight routinely use it during bloom. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:48:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fire bilight & Apple pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: Some growers with a past history of fire blight routinely use it during bloom. Being a grower of both apples & pears I would say that streptomycin IS the antibiotic of choice for fireblight which is very common. Pears seem to always get fire blight. I have butchered many a pear tree trying to get fire blight under control. Treating with streptomycin is rather expensive as compared to cutting out the fire blight. Growers spray streptomycin many times with bee hives in the field but all nectar goes into the brood nest in our area. Could the streptomycin found in some U.S. honey be coming from such spraying I do not know. If I were to guess I would say no for our area as little if any extra honey over what the bees use is had in our area and many times the hives need feeding coming off apples. Last year we needed a extra 100 hives to complete a pollination contract of a large Apple orchard so we approached a local beekeeper which put a hundred hives on grocery pallets for us to put in for him. When we picked up the hives he had supers on each hive. Needless to say all supers were empty and his bees needed feed when we returned to bees to him. The bees do raises quite a bit of brood on Apples if they go in strong. Other parts of the U.S. may differ greatly from our Midwest experience with Apple pollination. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 22:13:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: honeyboy Subject: Smoker trick MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I see the thread on smokers and I thought I would add this. I learned, after choking on smoke inside my van that, I could take my smoker and roll up the window on the bellows. The smoker would face outside the van and the pressure of the window would hold the smoker in place. I have an elec. window. I suppose a hand roll up window would be the same. The little piece of material on the bottom of the bellows, between the wooden front and back of the bellows is where the window rolls up into. The rubber door/window gasket is the top pinch point between the top, wide part of the bellows. It is stable, you can drive from site to site with it outside the truck and the wind seems to keep the fuel lit. Mason --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 4/1/03 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:07:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Smoker physics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a theoretical and (by experience) a practical advantage in having a large (4" diameter x 10" long) smoker compared to a small (3" x 7") smoker. The heat loss from the "internal fire" is much greater in the small guy due to the poorer volume to surface area ratio (about 7 for the small smoker and 13 for the large smoker). As well as direct heat loss thru' the walls there will be much more insulation from the combustion material in the large smoker so that a hotter "oven" of combusted material will be maintained in the smoker ensuring that it stays lit much better. (increasing diameter is better than increasing length, since you get a diameter squared advantage -this is so much so that when you get to a certain size of combustion piston engine, cooling can get difficult) Practically when I moved to a larger smoker I was surprised at how much better it was at staying lit. Alan Riach Bathgate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:30:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks In-Reply-To: <000901c30789$7b214dc0$2bac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I have got a homemade smoker box on one of the trucks and am considering >putting smoker boxes on all. Never a problem with fire or smoke. > >I am thinking of ordering a couple smoker boxes from Walter Kelley ( >1-800-233-2899). The smoker boxes are on page 21 of their 2003 catalog. > >Bob Living in Vermont, old sap buckets are plentiful and free. They make excellent smoker "boxes." Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:21:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Comments on beekeeping ordinance In-Reply-To: <200304201344.h3KDgGCt001666@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Below is a copy of the actual ordinance for beekeeping in Fort Collins, CO. THis is the model that my city, Aurora, CO is using for it's model. I would appreciate any comments. Thank you. Tom Patterson Fort Collins Municipal Code CHAPTER 4 ANIMALS AND INSECTS ARTICLE III. INSECTS DIVISION 2. BEES[*] Sec. 4-226. Definitions. The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this Division, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this Section: Apiary shall mean a place where bee colonies are kept. Bee shall mean any stage of the common domestic honey bee, apis mellifera species. Colony shall mean a hive and its equipment and appurtenances, including bees, comb, honey, pollen and brood. Hive shall mean a structure intended for the housing of a bee colony. Tract shall mean a contiguous parcel of land under common ownership. Undeveloped property shall mean any idle land that is not improved or actually in the process of being improved with residential, commercial, industrial, church, park, school or governmental facilities or other structures or improvements intended for human use or occupancy, and the grounds maintained in association therewith. The term shall be deemed to include property developed exclusively as a street or highway or property used for commercial agricultural purposes. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-227. Certain conduct declared unlawful. (a) The general purpose of this Division is to establish certain requirements of sound beekeeping practices, which are intended to avoid problems that may otherwise be associated with the keeping of bees in populated areas. (b) Notwithstanding compliance with the various requirements of this Division, it shall be unlawful for any beekeeper to keep any colony or colonies in such a manner or of such disposition as to cause any unhealthy condition, interfere with the normal use and enjoyment of human or animal life of others, or interfere with the normal use and enjoyment of any public property or property of others. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-228. Hives. All bee colonies shall be kept in Langstroth type hives with removable frames, which shall be kept in sound and usable condition. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-229. Fencing of flyways. In each instance in which any colony is situated within twenty-five (25) feet of a public or private property line of the tract upon which the apiary is situated, as measured from the nearest point on the hive to the property line, the beekeeper shall establish and maintain a flyway barrier at least six (6) feet in height consisting of a solid wall, fence, dense vegetation or combination thereof that is parallel to the property line and extends ten (10) feet beyond the colony in each direction so that all bees are forced to fly at an elevation of at least six (6) feet above ground level over the property lines in the vicinity of the apiary. It is a defense to prosecution under this Section that the property adjoining the apiary tract in the vicinity of the apiary is undeveloped property for a distance of at least twenty-five (25) feet from the property line of the apiary tract. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-230. Water. Each beekeeper shall ensure that a convenient source of water is available at all times to the bees so that the bees will not congregate at swimming pools, bibcocks, pet water bowls, birdbaths or other water sources where they may cause human, bird or domestic pet contact. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-231. General maintenance. Each beekeeper shall ensure that no bee comb or other materials that might encourage robbing are left upon the grounds of the apiary site. Upon their removal from the hive, all such materials shall promptly be disposed of in a sealed container or placed within a building or other bee-proof enclosure. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-232. Queens. In any instance in which a colony exhibits unusually aggressive characteristics by stinging or attempting to sting without due provocation or exhibits an unusual disposition towards swarming, it shall be the duty of the beekeeper to requeen the colony. Queens shall be selected from stock bred for gentleness and nonswarming characteristics. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-233. Colony densities. (a) It shall be unlawful to keep more than the following number of colonies on any tract within the city, based upon the size or configuration of the tract on which the apiary is situated: (1) One-quarter (¼) acre or less tract size--two (2) colonies; (2) More than one-quarter (¼) acre but less than one-half (½) acre tract size--four (4) colonies; (3) More than one-half (½) acre but less than one (1) acre tract size--six (6) colonies; (4) One (1) acre or larger tract size--eight (8) colonies; and (5) Regardless of tract size, where all hives are situated at least two hundred (200) feet in any direction from all property lines of the tract on which the apiary is situated, there shall be no limit to the number of colonies. (b) For each two (2) colonies authorized under colony densities, subsection (a) above, there may be maintained upon the same tract one (1) nucleus colony in a hive structure not exceeding one (1) standard nine and five-eighths (95/8) inch depth ten (10) frame hive body with no supers attached as required from time to time for management of swarms. Each such nucleus colony shall be disposed of or combined with an authorized colony within thirty (30) days after the date it is acquired. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-234. Marking hives, presumption of beekeeping. (a) In apiaries, the name and telephone number of the beekeeper shall be branded, painted or otherwise clearly marked upon the structure of at least two (2) hives and placed at opposite ends of the apiary. Instead of marking the hives, the beekeeper may conspicuously post a sign setting forth the name and telephone number of the beekeeper. It is a defense to prosecution under this subsection that a colony is kept on the same tract upon which the owner resides. (b) Unless marked in accordance with subsection (a), it shall be presumed for purposes of this Division that the beekeeper is the person or persons who own or otherwise have the present right of possession and control of the tract upon which a hive or hives are situated. The presumption may be rebutted by a written agreement authorizing another person to maintain the colony or colonies upon the tract setting forth the name, address and telephone number of the other person who is acting as the beekeeper. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-235. Inspection. The City Manager shall have the right to inspect any apiary between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Where practicable, prior notice shall be given to the beekeeper if he/she resides at the apiary or if his/her name is marked on the hives. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-236. Declaration of nuisance. The keeping by any person of bee colonies in the city not in strict compliance with this Division is declared to be a menace to the health and safety of the residents of the city and is hereby declared to be a nuisance and is prohibited. Any bee colony not residing in a hive structure intended for beekeeping, or any swarm of bees, or any colony residing in a standard or homemade hive which, by virtue of its condition, has obviously been abandoned by the beekeeper, is hereby declared to be a menace to the health and safety of the residents of the city and is hereby declared to be a nuisance and is prohibited. Any bee colonies kept in the city not in compliance with this Division or otherwise declared to be a nuisance pursuant to this Section may be summarily destroyed or removed from the city by the City Manager. In each instance in which a bee colony is destroyed, all usable components of the hive structure that are not damaged or rendered unhealthy by the destruction of the bees shall upon the bee-keeper's request be returned to the beekeeper, provided that the beekeeper agrees to bear all transportation expenses for their return. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 Sec. 4-237. Enforcement. The City Manager shall be charged with enforcement of this Division. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 [*]Editor's note—Ord. No. 72, 1989, adopted Apr. 4, 1989, repealed § 4-226 and enacted a new Div. 2, §§ 4-226—4-237. Former § 4-226 was derived from Ord. No. 160, 1986, § 1(35-42), adopted Nov. 4, 1986 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Outlaw Subject: Confederate Jasmine? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My spouse would like to cover a very long stretch of chain-link fence with confederate jasmine. The fence is only meters from my bee hives. This plant blooms as the blackberries finish up and the tupelo and black gum are coming up. These latter, of course, provide excellent honey. The question is, Do bees visit confederate jasmine? . . .and, if so, will the honey taint my "mostly tupelo?" Thanks so much for informed responses! END OF MESSAGE ************************************************************** William H. Outlaw Jr. The Peter H. Homann Professor of Biological Science Department of Biological Science Chieftan Way, BIO Unit 1, Mail Code 4370 Florida State University Tallahassee FL 32306-4370 FAX: 850 644-0481 Voice: 850 644-4020 Home phone: 850 893-7551 Home Page: http://bio.fsu.edu/~outlaw/who.html Ethnobotany (cane mills and more): http://www.southernmatters.com Office Computer IP Password: anon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:46:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I am thinking of ordering a couple smoker boxes from Walter Kelley ( >> 1-800-233-2899). The smoker boxes are on page 21 of their 2003 >> catalog. We've used ammo boxes from war surplus, steel pails and other things over the years, but a few years ago, after truck deck fires, lost smokers along the road, and smokers burnt up from the wind of driving, we invested in designing and making special boxes that hold two smokers, paper, fuel, and matches or lighter. A coffee can in the fuel compartment can be used to hold any hot ashes that are dumped out when re-lighting smokers in yards with dry, tinderbox, grass underfoot. The boxes cost us about $100 Canadian dollars each, but have paid for themselves many times over. Now we never carry smokers without using the boxes. Smokers last longer; we don't have fires; we don't ever lose them. Moreover, we always have everything we need in one place, and everything is dry. There is a picture at today's http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ page. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:08:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Physics involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/04/03 05:03:52 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Have had so much frustration over the years with smokers - would love to hear how others cope. >> Use liquid smoke. Or if you must use a smoker retain some material from the previous time. Then a mere spark from a lighter and a few seconds blowing on it are usually sufficient. Then the smoker can be filled with whatever comes to hand. usually I have old hessian potato sacks that are no longer servicable, but I have used old dry rotten wood, grass, moss or even fibrous pony turd. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:42:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below is a copy of the actual ordinance for beekeeping in Fort Collins, CO. THis is the model that my city, Aurora, CO is using for it's model. I would appreciate any comments. They seem reasonable to me unless there is something there I have missed. Our Department puts out Farmnotes and there is one on Bees in Suburbia. It can be seen at www.dpi.qld.gov.au/bees/5792.html There is also a Code of Practice for Urban Beekeeping. It is being revised and we are trying to have it put in as part of the Council Ordinances so that if you are adhering to the Code it is OK to keep the bees. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:32:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Confederate Jasmine? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/03 2:05:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, outlaw@BIO.FSU.EDU writes: > chain-link fence with > Confederate jasmine makes a poison honey. There are only five plants that I know of the make the poison honey. History with the Greek village fighting. The weaker village won the fight by letting the beehives filled with laurel honey poison that were consummed by the invaders. Suggestion; honey suckle, coral vine, flame vine, or blackberry Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:24:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Confederate Jasmine? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421134418.0648f260@bio.fsu.edu> From: Bill Outlaw > These latter, of course, provide excellent honey. The > question is, Do bees visit confederate jasmine? . . .and, if so, will the > honey taint my "mostly tupelo?" If you are referring to the plant we call Carolina Jasmine, or Jessamine, (Gelsemium sempervirens), the direct answer to your question would be NO. The plant blooms much earlier than you indicate, so that its products will be used during the brood build up. It would be unlikely to ever get added to the later nectars in any significant quantity. Unfortunately there is another factor of which you are apparently not aware; that is that all parts of the plant are toxic, including the nectar and pollen. Children have mistaken the flower for honeysuckle and sucked on the flower for nectar, thus making necessary a trip to the hospital. Bees apparently do not prefer this plant for forage, and most years they leave it alone, but some years when pickings tend to be slim, they do visit, and dead brood is always seen in hives that do so. This year, I only saw one hive with dead brood that I attributed to Carolina Jasmine. Other years I've seen quite a bit more. It's a pretty flower, but not one that I'd plant for bees. It freely grows wild, however, and is the state flower of South Carolina. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:20:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Space for 10 and 1/2 framse in my hive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hived the bees last Sunday and took the queen cage ect out this Saturday, (along with a nice white triangle of comb containing a little pollen) but when went to fill up the empty space there was enough room for ten frames ...plus almost enough room for an eleventh frame. The question is what should I do with the extra space in the hive. All the frames seemed to slide toward one side of the hive by the force of gravity alone. Should I put some shims under the hive stand to level out the hive so things don't slide and evenly space out the frames by eyeball or is there some kind of equipment I can get to space out the frames precisely? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::