From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:25:27 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5142449026 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeA011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0304D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 171308 Lines: 3813 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:30:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 21 April, Allen Dick wrote: "we invested in designing and making special boxes that hold two smokers, > paper, fuel, and matches or lighter. The boxes cost us about $100 Canadian dollars each, but have paid for > themselves many times over". $100 boxes are afforale only by the professional. The hobbyist with 3,7 or 20 hives will find a plastic bucket with a snap-on airtight lid works well, if big enough to hold one smoker and some fuel. Hardware shops sell plastic storage boxes for under £2 UK. A piece of wood will save the bottom melting, your smoker should have a guard to stop the hot side touching anything. Avoid starting fires by NOT emptying the smoker while it is still hot. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:47:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Queen Quit Laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One of my queens quit laying. She's still present and there are no swarm cells and no supersedure cells. But then there are no eggs with which to make a new queen cell either. This queen is one year old, marked for last year's age. The outer rings of her previous brood pattern are emerging and there are no eggs being laid. Previous brood pattern was very nice and uniform. Any ideas? Grant GillardJackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:58:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rich Bruno Subject: Re: Space for 10 and 1/2 framse in my hive. Comments: To: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" You should push all of the frames together or else the drawn comb will be too deep. You should also center the frames. Spacing the frames will allow the bees to draw comb that extends beyond the width of the frame and in the future it will be difficult to remove them from the hive. Rich :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rich Bruno Subject: Honey Refractometers Does anyone have an opinion on which manufacturers offer the best refractometers for honey? I want to get a good one but don't want to spend a tremendous amount. I've heard that some Chinese models are pretty good but don't know much about them. Also, can I get a decent one for around $100? thanks Rich Bruno :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:10:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Edward D Heinlein Subject: Re: Another smoker solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I've have found that works for me is: 1.) Start with a little burning newspaper 2.) Add a little kindling lying around from splitting firewood for winter 3.) And when that gets going, I toss on a few charcoal briquets 4.) Then, while I ready everything else 5.) When I need smoke, I've got a nice "hot" bed of coals that produce lots of smoke as soon as I throw just about anything on them! No, I haven't noticed any detrimental effects from the briquets on the bees (toxic off gassing) For what it's worth...... Ed Heinlein Helena, MT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Honey Extractors In-Reply-To: <000601c30610$44d10be0$86e46742@cedavidson> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: beekeeper > > a rural newspaper may also bring results as a lot of these smaller > extractors are forgotten in the back of a barn or a garage attic. > Just beware of some of those barn extractor finds: many older ones I have seen are galvanized, rather than stainless steel. Several states prohibit the use of galvanized items in contact with honey that is later sold to the public. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:23:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Physics involved But be aware that some potato sacks are treated with insecticide. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > usually I have old hessian potato sacks that are no longer > servicable :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:44:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks In-Reply-To: <002f01c308a5$3ea78d60$df7abc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:30 AM 4/22/03 +0100, you wrote: >$100 boxes are afforale only by the professional. The hobbyist with 3,7 or >20 hives will find a plastic bucket with a snap-on airtight lid works well, Alternately, just get one of those large metal tins often sold around Christmas filled with caramel corn and various other flavors. After Christmas they were about $3 (with popcorn) at office depot. Perhaps not completely airtight (though close), easier to open, and won't melt. (I'd avoid the caramel corn if using it for smoker fuel :) -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:05:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: cognant.mike@BTCONNECT.COM Subject: Re: Smoker physics In-Reply-To: <3EA3B4E0.3040705@which.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Apr 2003 at 10:07, Alan Riach wrote: hotter "oven" of combusted > material will be maintained in the smoker ensuring that it stays lit > much better. Hi all The main purpose of a smoker is to produce smoke-and that is an objective that the vast majority of general combustion work is aiming to prevent. This suggests that changes designed to make a smoker burn better or hotter may be running counter to what is required. A smoker needs to burn in a such a way that, when additional air is supplied through the bellows, the resulting combustion is relatively poor-judged by normal combustion standards- liberating unburnt carbon particles in the outgoing airflow to form the smoke. This suggests that perhaps a low temperature, smouldering type of combustion is required, rather than a hot, burning fire. It may be why a shredded and closely packed smoker fuel, with a great deal of surface area combusting at the same time, works better. There appear to be some similarities with a cigarette combustion. In the unblown situation the cigarette smoulders very slowly, but when a draft is applied, smoke and other chemicals are liberated for a short duration, after which the slow smouldering is resumed almost immediately. Perhaps we need to take up James Fisher's proposal to design a better smoker from scratch, based on sound physical principles. My own limited experience of combustion suggests that this may be a difficult activity-especially if a wide range of materials is to be burnt. On a related note, the analogy with cigarette combustion makes me wonder if beekeepers should be concerned about the possible effects of smoker-produced smoke on their health. I am pretty sure that smoke from most cellulose based fuels will contain many of the unpleasant chemicals in tobacco smokes that are accused of causing damage to health. Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorks UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:30:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Allen Subject: Re: Honey Refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit E-bay, under beekeeping supplies has refractometers listed for about $60 as I remember. The write up on it sounds like it may be what you are looking for. Bob Allen San Antonio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:57:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey Extractors In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:37 AM 4/22/03 -0400, you wrote: >Just beware of some of those barn extractor finds: many older ones I have >seen are galvanized, rather than stainless steel. Several states prohibit >the use of galvanized items in contact with honey that is later sold to the >public. Most can probably be fixed by painting with an approved food grade epoxy. Some I've seen are a mix of materials, stainless tank, but galvanized baskets, etc. Buyer beware. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:19:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030422073748.04c1b120@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I use a combination of several of the previously mentioned methods: - an army surplus Ammo Can to hold the smoker (with a cork for the spout) (~US$8 at an army surplus store) - a small tin to hold the fuel (bailing twine and wood chips)(free) - and a plastic zip-lock to hold the tinder (dryer lint)(also free) I think that keeping the tinder/fuel separate from the smoker is a good idea if you will be transporting it when lit. The ammo can is water (air?) tight, so once closed, you can even carry the smoker in the truck's passenger compartment. The one I have holds a small smoker with room for matches and not much else. They do make larger ammo cans. On the down side, it will put the smoker out in 15-20 minutes. This can be a plus or a minus depending on where you are headed (home or the next beeyard). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks Another option for a smoker box came right out of my barn - a metal milk delivery-service box. Most companies that delivered milk stopped doing so back in the 1960s, but the boxes still remain. Assuming that they are not priced as "collectables" they make fine boxes for a single smoker, and they are insulated, which keeps the heat in just as well as it kept the cold in. jim (who lives in the land of milk and honey) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Queen Quit Laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ive read about a queen running out of sperm. Never gave it a lot of thought. This is NOT the time of year to be queenless. Personally Id check again very carefully and if still nothing, dispatch her and add a new frame of eggs so they can whip up a new queen. But again thats a month of no new eggs. At least the frame will give new workers. I panicked this eairly spring when I had a non laying queen and dispatched her for a replacement. I expect the new one to be laying now but cant check in this horrid weather. Others please? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:10:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Pure honey Comments: To: superbee In-Reply-To: <000101c30591$742feac0$bc9e9ac2@warezcit> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000101c30591$742feac0$bc9e9ac2@warezcit>, superbee writes >So you can see just from this small example how much deceipt is involved >in the whole Chinese honey system. It is always easier to presume a one-sided conspiracy theory. Especially in this case. Surely we must see a perfect match - Chinese keen to get world trade and currency coupled with Western greed, taking the cheapest inputs and selling on for maximum returns using labelling trickery. So large packers around the world got their come-uppance and the Chinese will have to raise their standards. It's a long haul and one day we might get it right. Well done the EU I say. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:18:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mike Churchill wrote (in part): >I use a combination of several of the previously mentioned >methods: > - an army surplus Ammo Can to hold the smoker (with a >cork for the spout) (~US$8 at an army surplus store) CLIP >The ammo can is water (air?) tight, so once closed, you >can even carry the smoker in the truck's passenger >compartment. Mike has it right, in my opinion. For decades I have used such a surplus Ammo Can, with its "O-ring" seal. Mine, though, cost only 50 cents at the time (inflation really does occur!). Lucky, I bought a couple at the time. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:10:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Queen Quit Laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have a hive with the same situation. I was wondering if it was because it turned very cold after a warm spell. It hasn't been warm enough to get back into the hive after my initial inspection so I don't know if the situation rectified itself. Almost all of the brood has hatched. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:54:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/04/03 05:03:00 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Sec. 4-228. Hives. All bee colonies shall be kept in Langstroth type hives with removable frames, which shall be kept in sound and usable condition. Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 >> I can understand that the authorities might wish to be able to inspect bees for AFB which would be the only sensible reason for this provision, however, it would preclude top bar hives and other non Langstroth designs which allow inspection of the combs, which are the important bit, not the wooden ware. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:01:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: smoker fuels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A group of Canadians a few years ago gave me a tip that works for me. Pine cones for say one yard and when doing multiple, add alfalfa cubes on top for once they get going they will burn all night. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:45:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance In-Reply-To: <103.2c6acdfb.2bd71415@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is one of the changes we have already suggested to the committee. It will actually be "inspectable hive" and not name any particular type. Tom ><< Sec. 4-228. Hives. > All bee colonies shall be kept in Langstroth type hives with removable > frames, which shall be kept in sound and usable condition. > Ord. No. 72, 1989, 4-4-89 >> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:06:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Re: smoker fuels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use cotton belting from conveyor belts out of food mills (kelloggs etc) they only need to be lit once and they burn all day long, and then can be put out and relit for the next time. Was taught this from a beekeeping retired employee of one of those mills. Bill :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Removable frame" hive is more correct than "inspectable hive". One could say that looking in the hole of a bee gum is an inspection. It was the "removable frame" that revolutionized "modern" beekeeping. Ironically it is the removable frame that also fosters/spreads AFB, but thats a different story. Shim can really get going on the topic. Aaron Morris - thinking if it's not one thing, it's another! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:44:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance In-Reply-To: <103.2c6acdfb.2bd71415@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:54 PM 4/22/2003 -0400, you wrote: >it would preclude top bar hives and other non Langstroth designs which allow >inspection of the combs, which are the important bit, not the wooden ware. Not to mention observation hives, etc. Depending on the state law, this portion may not be needed at all. Many states require bees be kept in hives with movable frames already. Another issue: I know of several breeders who specifically breed for gentleness, (among other things), but do any specifically breed for non swarming tendencies? (and do the necessary testing that would be required for selection of this?) Overall I think it's pretty reasonable. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: The Sugar Industry Plays Hardball Here's an example of how aggressive our primary competition (sugar) is in their lobbying efforts. In contrast, USA beekeepers have been bogged down for years with infighting over the makeup of the board of directors for a simple marketing and promotional organization. The World Health Organization dares to indirectly suggest that people might want to limit their intake of sweeteners, and the Sugar Association PUBLICLY warns them to either suppress their report, or face severe financial retaliation bordering on extinction: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17583-2003Apr22.html "The sugar industry has launched a vigorous campaign to discredit a World Health Organization report on healthful diets, questioning why the Geneva-based group would urge people to derive no more than 10 percent of their daily caloric intake from sugar additives... ... Hoping to block the report, which is scheduled for release today, the Sugar Association threatened to lobby Congress to cut off the $406 million the United States gives annually to WHO. The funds account for nearly a quarter of the organization's budget... ...WHO's report suggests that people can reduce their susceptibility to obesity, diabetes and some heart problems by curbing the amount of sugar they consume. It warns that 'unbalanced consumption of foods high in energy (sugar, starch, and/or fat) and low in essential nutrients contributes to energy excess . . . and obesity.'... ...association is attacking WHO's report on scientific grounds. He noted that the National Academy of Sciences issued a report last fall saying added sugars could amount to as much as 25 percent of a person's daily diet without harming one's health..." jim (Who notes a highly suspicious, recent, and direct correlation between more "super-sized" food and more "super-sized" people) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:17:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: smoker fuels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would expect there are as many different fuel/starter combinations as there are smokers out there. I was told by the fellow that first got me started in beekeeping that if you put three beekeepers in one room and asked a question you would get 7 answers--he was correct!!! And that is a GOOD thing! For what its worth, I used to use paper for starter, but the dryer lint works well, is free, lights easier than even the paper. I keep it and my fuel which is usually just what I manage to rake up in the yard (leaves from oaks and apple trees mixed with pine needles) in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid. If I need a really long smoke I will add a 1/2-1 cup of the processed pellets available from Dadant or Western Bee. These will last a long time, though I dont like the smell as much. Tim Morris Pulaski, Tn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:14:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Honey Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This one is galvanized. I spoke to the auctioneer. I have read the food law in Michigan and as far as I can see there is nothing prohibiting the galvanized extractor. If someone else knows better, let me know, and as you say, food grade epoxy can take care of the problem. On the other hand, I purchased a 4 frame stainless extractor at an auction. Buyer beware is always a good motto! Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: smokers & smoker boxes for trucks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like using old Ammo Cans! OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Gray" > Avoid starting fires by NOT emptying the smoker while it is still hot. > > Robin Dartington > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:37:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Plastic foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: I have only four colonies and am just ending my first year at keeping bees in southern california. I had used only Dadant Plasticell foundation for my initial brood boxes and the bees drew them out quite nicely. However, I decided to try their Duragilt foundation in my newest hive and find the bees made this wild arrangement of combs resulting in several adjacent frames essentially grown to one another with comb bridging the gap between frames. The only way I could get one of the frames out was to tear them apart. It was a big mess In one of the combs the bees had chewed away portions of the pressed beeswax leaving the bare plastic film substrate. "Plasticell" foundation is plastic molded with a raised cell pattern then beeswax coated. If the beeswax is removed, the hex pattern remains. "Duragilt" consists of a smooth plastic sheet with beeswax cell pattern pressed onto the surface. If the beeswax is removed the cell pattern is gone. To date,I have not tried traditional beeswax foundation. Anyone out there have similar or contradicting experiences? Thanks Bill Meister Bill@TheMeisterCompany.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The Sugar Industry Plays Hardball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...WHO's report suggests that people can reduce their susceptibility to obesity, diabetes and some heart problems by curbing the amount of sugar they consume. Can we really argue that the above is not true? Big sugar will! As with cigarettes many people will not even consider changing their habits until they see a published report saying what most already secretly know is true before changing their habits. i am not picking on the cigarette smokers but pointing out a class action law suit against big sugar could happen in the next fifty years. I wrote a interesting article about refinned white sugar and health awhile back but the editor and I thought although the article had merit it was still too controversal a subject so we tabled the article. One reason was that if Jim Fischer decided to take the sugar industry position and say there is no concrete proof (other than tens of thousands of case histories as with tobacco) he would be right (a fact the sugar industry relies on as did big tobacco). *However* in a court of law with a jury trial big sugar might down the road be in trouble and go down the same class action lawsuit road as big tobacco. Should a small warning be placed on a candy bar? I believe a warning might be helpful for a certain segment of the population. Most people would be amazed at the number of people which never read a newspaper, magazine or watch a news program. How will these people ever become informed on health issues? "In 1929 , Dr. F. G. Banting ,the discoverer on INSULIN, delivered a forthright warning on the subject refinned sugar, saying , "In the U.S. the incidence of diabetes has increased proportionately with the per capita consumption of cane sugar." Sadly none can say that Dr. Bantings prediction has not came to pass as diabetes reaches epidimc porportions in the U.S. with people losing vision , use of limbs and death. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:54:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Sugar Industry Plays Hardball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > ...association is attacking WHO's report on scientific grounds. He noted > that the National Academy of Sciences issued a report last fall saying > added sugars could amount to as much as 25 percent of a person's daily > diet without harming one's health..." The writer of the article that Jim quotes got it a bit wrong or at a minimum, was misleading. What both WHO and the sugar board are arguing about is sugars added to the diet over what is already in the diet. Neither (including NAS) is arguing to have sugar constitute either 10% or 25% of the total diet. So if you get x grams of sugar in your diet, you can add either 10% (WHO) or 25% (Sugar) to the diet with no ill effects (I.E. 100 grams sugar in whole diet = either 110 grams or 125 grams.) The other problem with the article is it makes it appear that WHO is talking cane sugar/sucrose (the Sugar people) while WHO was all sugars and was more interested in colas and "junk food" and the like which use corn syrup and other sugars. (Coke is not "junk food" but a staple, essential to life. Keeps me alert on long trips.) WHO's statement was the opinion of a bunch of contributors and not policy. They want to keep the added sugar (all kinds) down to no more than 10% additional. It also, if you read it that way, includes foods that are converted to sugar, which means starches, fruits and vegetables, and carbohydrates in general, which complicates matters even more. So there is a lot of smoke in the article. There is more science on Big Sugar's side than WHOs; more common sense dietary moderation on WHO's side than big sugar; and a lot of confusion as to just what both sides are talking about. Which tends to sell more papers than facts do. Bill Truesdell (who, every time he posts to Bee-L, gets a ton of SPAM.) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:44:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Sugar Industry Plays Hardball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > "In 1929 , Dr. F. G. Banting ,the discoverer on INSULIN, delivered a > forthright warning on the subject refinned sugar, saying , "In the U.S. the > incidence of diabetes has increased proportionately with the per capita > consumption of cane sugar." You can also cite todays research... Quote Sugar Intake Not Tied to Diabetes Risk in Women Mon April 21, 2003 01:41 PM ET NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A large new study of middle-aged women suggests that when it comes to diabetes, sugar is not a major player. Instead, the amount of calories consumed and a sedentary lifestyle may be more important in terms of diabetes risk, according to Harvard researchers. "The intake of sugar, specifically, does not appear to play a major role. Probably the total calorie intake is more important," said Dr. JoAnne Manson, of Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. "Certainly the study should not be interpreted as condoning unlimited sugar intake and high calorie intake. It is well known that a higher calorie intake increases body weight, increases the risk of obesity, which is a major risk factor for type 2 diabetes," she said. (snip) Unquote You pay your money and take your choice. Moderation in everything keeps you healthy and dull. I have never been accused of either. This is another religious issue that will increase the entropy of the universe, exponentially. We are all doomed. Bill Truesdell (who loves shark derived (refinned) sugar) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:05:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Bruno Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to hear that about the Duragilt. I have been using it in all of my hives and have had very good results. The comb was drawn out beautifully. Were your frames pushed together all the way? Rich :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Space for 10 and 1/2 framse in my hive. In-Reply-To: <17b.1923dcd5.2bd5f2cf@aol.com> From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" > Should I put some shims under the hive stand > to level out the hive so things don't slide > and evenly space out the frames by eyeball Yes. The hive should be near level, at least from side to side. It's a good idea to tilt it slightly foreward to make sure water doesn't run in the entrance and pool on the bottom board. But always keep the hives sideways level. Extra space should be divided between the two outside wall positions, and it should be comb on the outside wall, because bees draw foundation very poorly on the outside of the wall comb. If you only have foundation, then, as soon as you have some drawn, move it to the outside position, and all the foundation to the center. Don't divide brood though, if there is still come cold nights coming up. Keep all brood frames together, or they may abandon one side and lose it on a cold night. Dave SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Queen Quit Laying In-Reply-To: <20030422024746.30725.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> From: Grant Gillard > One of my queens quit laying. She's still present and there are no swarm > cells and no supersedure cells. But then there are no eggs with which to > make a new queen cell either. This queen is one year old, marked for last > year's age. The outer rings of her previous brood pattern are emerging > and there are no eggs being laid. Previous brood pattern was very nice > and uniform. Any ideas? Grant GillardJackson, MO If I don't see eggs in a hive, I give them a frame of brood with eggs on it, from another hive. If they start making queen cells, the queen has failed. If they don't, the procedure won't hurt them; it will help keep their strenth up. Sometimes they have a virgin queen, especially this time of year, and I didn't notice the cell. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:34:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 23 April, Bill Meister wrote: "To date,I have not tried traditional beeswax foundation." If you work at the level of 4 colonies, it sounds very strange not to start with the simplest and oldest methods. Plastic foundation is artificial and creates special problemns for bees (they find it unnatural, and try to avoid it by buiding natural comb cross ways) and beekeepers ( bees have to be forced to draw it out, it is difficult to clean and re-wax unless u have tanks for steaming and dipping). There is obviously a case for artificial foundation in professional beekeeping at the industrial scale - but with only 4 colonies? Beewax foundation is very cheap in UK if u return the wax for recycling - it costs less than one jar of honey to refit 9 deep brood frames with pre-wired foundation each year. True, a solar wax extractor for recovering is yet another piece of equipment that adds to the costs of starting up but (at the hobby level) , that that can be avoided by simply using a vegetable steamer - a 3 piece stainless steel steamer costs £10 ($16) in UK - plus £5 ($8) for an extra bigger top piece if u want it that does speed up the work. Renewing brood combs yearly keeps disease down. Does wax foundation cost a lot more in USA? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Plastic foundation "it is difficult to clean and re-wax unless u have tanks for steaming and dipping" And when the wax moths or something wreck a frame of natural wax, how hard is it to clean and rewax in comparison to plastic? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:38:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Salt - orange/brown ...or gray ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The book Beekeeping for Dummies talks about making grease patties with sugar and Crisco and "mineral salt (the orange/brown salt available from farm supply stores - it's used to feed to livestock)." My hive is only 2 weeks "old" so I understand that grease patties are not a rush item yet. However, farm supply stores are few and far between in the city where I live so I was wondering if the "gray salt" available from the grommet beer & cheese store will do. It's supposed to be made by evaporating unfiltered sea water. Any suggestions? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:38:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Honey B Healthy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another question provoked by reading Beekeeping for Dummies: A product called Honey B Healthy which "contains pure essential oils (spearmint and lemon grass oils)" and "was developed by Bob Noel and Jim Armine". The sidebar about this product says "field tests indicate that this product keeps bees healthy and strong even in the presence oof varrona and tracheal mites. I'm just starting out in beekeeping and have only one hive that's isolated in the middle of a big city. I haven't seen any bees except an occasional bumble bee in years, in spite of the front yard filled with wild flowers that I have to replant every year. My main goal is to improve the environment by bringing bees back to the area and to keep the bees healthy. Has anyone tried this product or heard anything pro or con about it? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 05:16:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Re: Plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <001301c30a3c$69f6bfc0$ea91bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does wax foundation cost a >lot more in USA? >Robin Dartington Last year's Dadant catalog lists Medium Brood 100% wax foundation at USD 0.70 ea in 50 pc qty. Wax coated Plasticell is USD 0.83 in same qty. Duragilt is USD 0.97. My decision was to buy the "best" rather than least expensive because my quantities were so small that it made little overall difference. Thanks Bill Bill@TheMeisterCompany.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:55:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Bruno Subject: Re: Salt - orange/brown ...or gray ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't use salt at all. You're the first to ever mention it. What's it suppose to do? Make it taste better? lol Rich :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:38:35 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Plastic foundation Bill Meister reported: >> I had used only Dadant Plasticell foundation for my initial brood >> boxes and the bees drew them out quite nicely. However, I decided >> to try their Duragilt foundation in my newest hive and find the bees >> made this wild arrangement of combs... >> Wax coated Plasticell is USD 0.83 >> Duragilt is USD 0.97. >> My decision was to buy the "best" rather than least expensive because >> my quantities were so small that it made little overall difference. "Highest priced" does not imply best. If you check the archives of Bee-L, or ask beekeepers, there are many who have had problems with Duragilt, but far fewer who have had any problem with Plasticell or the many other similar embossed plastic foundations, both waxed and unwaxed. Robin Dartington said: > If you work at the level of 4 colonies, it sounds very strange not to > start with the simplest and oldest methods. How could hand-wiring frames, and imbedding wax foundation into the wires be considered "simple"? > Plastic foundation is artificial So are metal hive tools, nylon bee brushes, plastic queen excluders, stainless-steel extractors, tin smokers, 8-mesh screen, nails, screws, and so on. About the only "natural" item used in beekeeping these days are smoker fuels! ...and honey bees are not native to North American, either. So what? > and creates special problemns for bees (they find it unnatural, > and try to avoid it by buiding natural comb cross ways) Not if the frames are properly spaced, which is my guess as to the nature of the error. Anyway, he said that he had no problems with Plasticell, which is simply a different line of plastic-based foundation. > and beekeepers ( bees have to be forced to draw it out, Well, one could argue that this is true of any foundation, as bees will not draw additional comb unless they "feel" that they "need" the extra comb (nectar coming in, and limited available drawn comb). > it is difficult to clean and re-wax unless u have tanks for steaming > and dipping). "Cleaning" old Plasticell is a matter of having or borrowing a solar wax melter. "Re-waxing" is not really required. If you spray the bare plastic with some sugar water or anise oil, the bees will drawn it out just fine. If you really feel you MUST re-wax plastic, one can simply melt some wax in a (dead level) half-sheet baking tray floating in a full sheet baking tray filled with water to make a very flat "double boiler", and dip the plastic into the hot wax. While this takes all four burners of a typical stove to get an even heat over such a wide surface area, each burner can be on "low". (Insert usual warnings here about kitchens being the worst place to attempt any beekeeping task, and the hazards associated with angering one's significant other by [mis]using their cherished baking trays.) Speaking of full-sheet baking trays, they also make great "coasters" for stacks of supers, as they catch all the drips of honey, and can be hosed off with ease. Used, from a restaurant supply house, I got a dozen of them for a buck each. And unlike wired wax foundation, plastic is POSSIBLE to clean. Wired wax foundation, when placed into a solar melter will yield wires coated with charred material that must be cleaned by hand to avoid ending up with supers of "Bar-B-Q Flavored" honey and/or enough ash to make one's "Italian" bees look like Carniolans. (The wires apparently get much hotter than the wood, which makes sense.) > There is obviously a case for artificial foundation in professional > beekeeping at the industrial scale - but with only 4 colonies? Sure - it is called "convenience" and "ease of use". Check out the latest "trend" in bee supplies, where beekeepers are buying pre-assembled woodenware and frames. This assembly does not come free, so it is clear the hobby beekeepers are willing to pay extra to save some time and trouble. The "best" thing about products like Plasticell is their durability in an extractor. Even if an old frame comes apart (hey, it can happen at 600 RPM!) the frame can be removed and repaired, or the comb inserted into another frame, and one has, at worst, some damaged drawn comb for the bees to repair. > Renewing brood combs yearly keeps disease down. You renew ALL your brood combs EVERY year? That seems just a tad excessive. We renew on a 5-year cycle, (using queen-color thumbtacks on each frame to track the age of each comb). Best of all, the tiny amount of wax on Plasticell is MUCH less than the amount of wax required for foundation, which means we can expect far fewer problems from any wax contaminated with PDB, miticides, et al. As has been noted on this list, the recycling of wax into foundation has caused ever-higher levels of contamination of all but "cut comb thin surplus" foundation, intended to be drawn into edible comb, and made only from "cappings wax". Clearly, for "cut comb" or "Ross Rounds", one needs wax foundation, but neither of these cases require wiring, which is the complicated and tedious part. jim (who asks people who use pure wax foundation "Wire you using that?") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:43:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey B Healthy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Another question provoked by reading > Beekeeping for Dummies: Are you sure you got the title right? Was that Beekeeping for Dummies or Beekeeping by Dummies? I haven't read it, but jusding from the first two items I've heard here, I suspect you'd be better off with any of the books by extension departments or respected bee scientists. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:40:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: chloramphenicol In-Reply-To: <200304180400.h3I401Dd018294@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 4/18/2003 -0400, allen dick wrote: >I wonder if Jim, or anyone on this list, knows -- as of today, > >A.) the actual numerical levels of chloramphenicol that have been > found, and >B.) the proven harmful dose for those individuals who are susceptible > to developing aplastic anemia from the drug. My mom passed away at the end of March. In cleaning out her home and fridge, I found her eyedrops for glaucoma and was surprised to find chloramphenicol as the active ingredient. I believe it was a .5% concentration but I'm not sure. This was the first I'd ever seen it. So, in some concentrations it is used, at least in Canada. Eyedrops are not honey, so I wouldn't speculate about any conclusions at all. Chloramphenicol is supposed to be linked with cancer. Mom died of lung cancer. Again, it's not related. I just noticed all this. Rob Green Editor ISBA Journal (free download from www.HoosierBuzz.com) ccrb - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:26:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bill Meister" "My decision was to buy the "best" rather than least expensive because my > quantities were so small that it made little overall difference." I think you will find beeswax foundation is the best, for the hobbyist. Bees like it - so no problems. In UK, begnners obviously do not have wax blocks for recycling, but they can often 'borrow' some from an older beekeeper in the local association, then pay back when they have melyed some cappings of their own. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:52:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tim Vaughan" : "And when the wax moths or something wreck a frame of natural wax, how hard is it to clean and rewax in comparison to plastic?" Could not be simpler - I replace the foundation in 9 frames of each of 20 hives each year, best during Feb when not much else on but there is that hopeful feeling that spring is coming - just cut out the comb with a heavy knife, slicing thru the wires, scrape a bit clean, then clean out the side grooves (this is the only slow bit) by either: 1 putting in the solar extractor, or 2. putting in your honey warming box , turned up a bit or 3. putting in the dishwasher (get permission first , put both powder and soda in, and clean the filter afterwards with a kettle of hot water) or 4. dip the frames in a large electric water heater (5 gallon) or large flat dish (fish kettle) on top of the stove with hot water and detergent / soda or 5. put in the oven (permission again) or 6. (if u have patience) just scaping out the grooves with a narrow screwdriver and your hive tool. It just depends what u have available. Then remove the top wedge and fit a new ready-wired beeswax sheet - beeswax foundation bends easily so u arch it and fit the whole sheet at once rather than feed it in slowly from the bottom end. Foundation in shallow honey frames does not need to go in the grooves - so just leave them uncleaned and trim back the sides of the foundation. We established earlier on that plastic-based combs get attacked by wax moth just as much as wax-based combs. I would be interested to know how hobbyists clean plastic foundation. I tried jetting steam from a kettle but almost scalded myself and have left my trial set on the shelf ever since. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:21:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Virginia Warren Subject: Apiculture Position available The Department of Environmental Biology has a contractually limited Apiculture position available. The job add follows: Assistant Professor, Apiculture Department of Environmental Biology The Department of Environmental Biology at the University of Guelph invites applications for an Assistant Professor, 3 year contractually limited, in the area of Apiculture/Entomology. The successful candidate will develop and teach undergraduate and graduate courses in apiculture and/or entomology, depending on his/her area of expertise. The candidate will be expected to conduct applied and basic research in apiculture, for example queen rearing, bee pests and diseases and stock selection. In addition the successful candidate will be responsible for technology transfer to the apiculture industry. The position requires a Ph.D. in apiculture or a related field. Preference will be given to applicants with appropriate training and experience in queen rearing, bee pathology, and one or more of the following: physiology, molecular biology, toxicology, pesticide resistance and its management, and commercial beekeeping. Salary will be at the assistant professor level. Applications, including a curriculum vitae, university transcripts, a statement of philosophy and teaching interest/expertise, reprints or other evidence of academic activities should be forwarded to the Department Chair. In addition the candidate should provide a list of at least three referees that the Department can contact directly. The closing date for this competition is June 15, 2003. Submit all documentation to: Dr. Michael A. Dixon, Chair Department of Environmental Biology University of Guelph Guelph Ontario N1G 2W1 Fax: (519) 837-0442, Email: mdixon@ces.uoguelph.ca . The position is expected to start on September 1, 2003. All qualified candidates are encouraged to apply; however, Canadians and permanent residents will be given priority. The University of Guelph is committed to an employment equity programme that includes special measures to achieve diversity among its faculty and staff. We therefore particularly encourage applications from qualified Aboriginal Canadians, persons with disabilities, members of visible minorities and women. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:04:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Honey B Healthy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul D. Law (aka Dennis) wrote: > > >My main goal is to improve the environment >by bringing bees back to the area >and to keep the bees healthy. > >Has anyone tried this product or >heard anything pro or con about it? > > Hi Paul. > I use Honey Bee-Healthy. I can not say that is a good help in bee health. No control group to put it up against. I know a little about herbal medicine for humans. Its been around for a long time. I'm doing everything natural to help my bees. I use IPM. Screen board, Russian stock ( Blue line that has been weeded out by me ) and Fumidil-B. I added Honey bee Healthy last year.. I had a 2% loss during winter. Healthy bees going into winter , with plenty of stores and good ventilation. Moisture is the real killer here in Western Washington. I will not stop using Honey Bee Healthy and do a control test. I'm in the honey business. Not research. We are very fortunate to have so many good researchers working for us in beekeeping. The magic bullet is,all of us working together. Maybe some-one will go deeper into the oils used in honey bee healthy. I don't need it myself. I go with what seems to work for me. Don't think Honey bee healthy will solve you mite problem. Its only one step in healthy bees. Best Regards Roy > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:28:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Salt in Crisco patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ""mineral salt (the orange/brown salt available from farm supply stores - it's used to feed to livestock)." No one has ever shown there is any benefit from putting salt (of any kind) in grease patties. There is lots of evidence that plain Crisco and sugar is very effective against Trachael Mites. Add 1/3rd cup of sugar to 1/1/4 cup Crisco (melted) to make one patty and replace as necessary. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Essential oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "A product called Honey B Healthy which "contains pure essential oils (spearmint and lemon grass oils)" The difficulty with essential oils is that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. This is understandable once one considers that each essential oil contains dozens of chemicals, and they interact with one another in ways that differ based on humidity, temperature, dosage, etc. IMHO, treating with essential oils (only) is a good way to ensure that your bees will slowly die from Varroa damage. Save yourself a lot of grief and get a good book such as Beekeeping a Practical Guide, by Richard Bonney; Hot-to-do-it: Book of Beekeeping, by Richard Taylor; or The Beekeeper's Handbook, by Diana Sammataro. I prefer the latter, but it is unquestionably 'heavier' than the Bonney book. Everyone should own the Taylor book, but it should be used as a supplement to, and not a replacement for, the books by Bonney or Sammataro. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:22:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee1Bob1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey Refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bough one of these through ebay and had it sent to the UK. It works well and is as good as any others I have seen. I was very pleased with it. Bob Tamworth Staffordshire England :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:17:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love this list!!! Once again it goes to show that beekeepers are alert and have hard core opinions on most areas of this science/art/hobby/livelyhood. I am in the process of trying several different foundation types this spring, mostly out of curiousity, but also because they were given to me and free is much cheeper. I have used duragilt in the past with mixed results, mostly due to my own stupidities. Hard to blame an insect for my not doing what I should have done. The so called natural wax way (wires I have never seen in natural combs but thats another discussion), has yielded many nice sets of combs to work with, but I have several frames along the way that are weird collections of multiple layers of twisted comb. I suspect when the plasticel is completed and the others I am playing with I will have some good and bad as well. The plastic comb seems to me if nothing else have one serious advantage, especially to someone whos time means money like the commercial fellows. This stuff went in fast, stayed straight, didnt need wires or pins, and was very uniform. The wired foundation was a lot slower as it always is, but man does it smell good. In the end I suspect all types will remain available, all be used and in fact be debated about right here on Bee-L next year about this time. Ladies and Gentleman, thank you for such a wonderful forum to learn from. Tim Morris Pulaski, Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:27:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Bee-L Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24 April, James Fischer asked: "How could hand-wiring frames, and = imbedding wax foundation into the wires be considered "simple"? Certainly sounds difficult. It was an old American habit I believe. = Doubt any book published in UK has mentioned it in the last 50 years - = we have moved on, progressively. Almost all foundation here is beeswax, = if wired then bought prewired. Suits the 22,000 hobbyists very well. = Quite a few beekeepers here produce honey as cut comb , using thin = unwired wax foundation. Very easy, no need for an extractor, slow to = granulate, absolutely delicious. Wouldn't like to eat American cut comb, = with a sheet of plastic down the middle. =20 James also said:" Wired wax foundation, when placed into a solar melter = will yield wires coated with charred material that must be cleaned by hand to avoid ending up with supers of "Bar-B-Q Flavored" honey and/or enough ash to make one's "Italian" bees look like Carniolans." =20 Well yes, it probably would . But what a dumb way to do it. You just = cut out the whole comb , wires and all, and refit another wired sheet. = Why make all these odd suggestions only to knock them down? Who is it = helping?=20 Robin Dartington. =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Fiala Subject: Colorado ordinance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just come back from vacation, so this is a late comment on the local ordinance somewhere in Colorado. I wondered why someone had tried to reinvent the wheel - and come up with an egg! It was way too wordy and tried to deal with too much detail, particularly in defining "nuisance". It seemed more concerned with detailing worst-case scenarios of "nuisance" than with good guidelines for beekeeping. 1. I've been led to believe by those who should know that skeps (non-removeable comb) have been illegal in the U.S. since the early 20th century, when AFB became a major problem. Did you ask the state Dept. of Agriculture about state laws governing this? 2. Why not just use an ordinance already on the books in other places? For a good example, see "Ordinances Banning Bees" in the ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping, 1990 edition. The local ordinances here in Fairfax Co VA were written by the state extension service beekeepers and are very little different from the Long Island ordinances cited in ABC - the county code is online. There is also a "model ordinance" on-line at the University of Florida Extension Service. Alan Fiala Fairfax County, VA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: Honey Refractometers In-Reply-To: <200304230402.h3N3hHEd005888@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 4/23/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:05:15 -0400 >From: Rich Bruno >Subject: Honey Refractometers > >Does anyone have an opinion on which manufacturers offer the best >refractometers for honey? > >I want to get a good one but don't want to spend a tremendous amount. I've >heard that some Chinese models are pretty good but don't know much about >them. > >Also, can I get a decent one for around $100? Got a plastic chinese one on ebay last year for less than $60. NO CALIBRATION FLUID. I borrowed calibration fluid from a friend and the unit was right on. I'm very happy... except The line marking the sugar level seems fuzzy to me. It only approximates the value as it's a wide line. This may be true with all refractors, I don't know. But if I read it in the middle of the line away from fuzzy edges, I get what seems to be a perfect reading. ccrb - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:48:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Essential oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adding a note to what Lloyd says, Beltsville Bee Lab and Dr., Nick Calderone investigated essential oils for 12 years and came to EXACTLY the conclusion stated by Lloyd: they might work one time, but not the next time. Or, they might work on one colony but not its sister next door. It is noteworthy that no WELL KNOWN bee SCIENTIST or bee RESEARCHER has ever stated that essential oils are valuable for mite control or reduction. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:03:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Salt - orange/brown ...or gray ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't use salt at all. You're the first to ever mention it. Actually, we did quite a go-round on this topic in the archives. The upshot was that nobody could say which salts, in which amounts were good for bees and which salts, in which amounts were toxic. The books mentioned some salts are toxic, but weren't too specific on amounts, so most of us who consider ourselves 'prudent' decided that -- since we did not know -- and since bees do fine without added salts -- that we would not use something we did not understand. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:54:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I caught a swarm, a pretty good one, almost the size of a football, 04-22-03 about 8:30 AM It was on an evergreen and I cut the limb, and laid it into a 4 frame nuc. The nuc had only foundation.....2 Pierco and 2 Walter T. Kelley wired wax. The bees yesterday afternoon 4:30 PM, had all 4 sheets with wax added on each frame. The Kelley wax (1 sheet) was a little bit ahead of the Pierco and the other Kelley wax was about the same as the Pierco. The bees had pollen in several cells on the first day. They also had honey on the first day. I am not going to feed if possible. It is raining here now and I may have to feed. Lionel North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:31:27 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Plastic foundation Robin Dartington said: > I think you will find beeswax foundation is the best, for the hobbyist. Well, lets see... he has 4 hives, all using Plasticell now in their brood chambers with no problems to date. If he decides to go with wired wax for his supers, how long before he has his supers ready? Assuming that he needs 4 medium supers per hive, this would be a total of 160 frames at 10 frames per super (144 frames at 9 frames per super). How long might it take a novice to install eyelets, wire a frame and embed the wax foundation for a single frame? An optimistic estimate would be 10 minutes total. If so, he will need to spend 1600 mins (26.6 hours) wiring and embedding his frames, over and above the time required to assemble the frames. If he has a day job, and can only devote 4 hours a night to this task, he will spend a solid 7-day week of evenings doing nothing but this wiring and embedding. In contrast, he can spend about 5 seconds per frame snapping a sheet of wax-coated plastic into each of his assembled frames, and be done with all 160 frames in well under an hour. Offhand, I'd say that the labor savings alone make wax-coated plastic "free" as compared to wax foundation, even if one's time is valued at well below minimum wage rates. > Bees like it - so no problems. I know of no studies that concluded that bees accept wax foundation any more readily than wax-coated plastic. My own efforts to determine what bees "like", or if they even are capable of such emotions, have been frustrated by an insurmountable language barrier, but I, like many beekeepers, have found no significant difference in "acceptance" of wax-coated plastic versus traditional wax foundation. Wired wax is "traditional", but there is no reason to blindly follow "traditions" forever. Today's "traditions" are nothing more than innovations dating from before we started keeping bees. The main threats to developing useful new beekeeping traditions are the placebo effect and it's mirror image, the "nocebo" effect. Both are common reasons for confusion among beekeepers, the placebo effect making beekeepers think that something "works" when it does not, and the "nocebo" effect making beekeepers blame unrelated problems on the focus of their attention (for example, blaming misdrawn "wild comb" on the type of foundation used, which is a lot like blaming a house fire on the species of tree used for construction lumber). Accurate records for every colony can eliminate the siren song of both the placebo and nocebo effects. Yes, weird things happen with bees, but they are mostly random weird things, or the result of simple errors on the part of the beekeeper. Don't miss out on the traditions of tomorrow! jim (who makes a living dreaming the dreams your stuff are made of) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:13:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey Refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The line marking the sugar level seems fuzzy to me. Try letting the refractometer sit for a few minutes -- up to an hour -- before reading it. In my experience, the line will become clearer. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Plastic foundation From: "Tim Vaughan" : "And when the wax moths or something wreck a frame of natural wax, how hard is it to clean and rewax in comparison to plastic?" "Could not be simpler - I replace the foundation in 9 frames of each of 20 hives each year, best during Feb when not much else on but there is that hopeful feeling that spring is coming - just cut out the comb with a heavy knife, slicing thru the wires, scrape a bit clean, then clean out the side grooves (this is the only slow bit) by either: 1 putting in the solar extractor, or 2. putting in your honey warming box , turned up a bit or 3. putting in the dishwasher (get permission first , put both powder and soda in, and clean the filter afterwards with a kettle of hot water) or 4. dip the frames in a large electric water heater (5 gallon) or large flat dish (fish kettle) on top of the stove with hot water and detergent / soda or 5. put in the oven (permission again) or 6. (if u have patience) just scaping out the grooves with a narrow screwdriver and your hive tool. It just depends what u have available. Then remove the top wedge and fit a new ready-wired beeswax sheet - beeswax foundation bends easily so u arch it and fit the whole sheet at once rather than feed it in slowly from the bottom end. Foundation in shallow honey frames does not need to go in the grooves - so just leave them uncleaned and trim back the sides of the foundation." The Moderators know that it's not my style to quote so much, but really, with the plastic foundation you just kind of scrap it off, and put it in the hive between two properly drawn frames, and you're done. We're talking say, 45 seconds. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:55:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Essential oils ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd Spear" > The difficulty with essential oils is that sometimes they work and sometimes > they don't. They do if you use them properly - apart from some oxalic acid drip in the first couple of years, I have used only thymol since finding varroa in 1997. Winter losses have not increased and average crop (from 100+ colonies) has actually improved slightly. > This is understandable once one considers that each essential > oil contains dozens of chemicals Dozens??? How many dozen in thymol? > treating with essential oils (only) is a good way to ensure that your bees will > slowly die from Varroa damage. This just not so and ignore the considerable amount of evidence available (links from our website). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:00:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey Refractometers Not cheap, but my refractometer from Bellingham + Stanley is superbly engineered. The line is absolutely clear and it is easy to measure to within 1/4%. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:07:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <01c401c30ad2$c61c9e00$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In addition to the ease of installation for the beginner or hobbyist who doesn't want to spend lots of time wiring frames, plastic is also much more forgiving when you are just learning. If you mess up the bee space and they build wild comb it can be fixed. If you put on supers with foundation when there isn't a flow on they won't tear down the foundation (happened to me more than once when I first started and didn't know any better, I came back to supers with no foundation). The first time you 'skip' proper storage of supers and get wax moth you aren't starting from scratch. And I personally have not noticed any difference in acceptance between wax and plastic. Of course you wouldn't use if for cut comb, but then you wouldn't use wired foundation for that either. Everyone should try wiring a hundred frames or so once. It will give you a quick appreciation for the plastic. My only complaint is that they don't make medium foundation in black. If you are using mediums as brood chambers, eggs and young larva are very hard to see against new white foundation. And the black is a great aid when giving a presentations, the eggs and larva stand out beautifully. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:53:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey Refractometers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Not cheap, but my refractometer from Bellingham + Stanley is superbly > engineered. The line is absolutely clear and it is easy to measure to > within 1/4%. Mine is twenty-five years old and measures to 0.1 % and has temperature correction. I thought that accuracy was pretty much standard. Maybe not. That kind of accuracy is nice, and important if you are packing commercially, but for most beekeepers who are shipping bulk and/or just selling locally, the bubble test (described in the archives) is plenty accurate. Unless you are competing so hard that you are pressing the legal moisture limit just to survive ( and pay for your Mercedes), as some packers are, just being sure that unpasteurized honey is well under 17.8% is usually all we need to know. If you check commercially packed honey, I think you will never find it at a moisture level detectably below the legal limit. Funny. I wonder how they get so close... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, although a bit more costly... I have cut down foundation from the large size to fit my mediums. My tablesaw and old blade works well when doing this. Of course this is for placing just the pierco sheets into wooden frames... OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html > > My only complaint is that they don't make medium foundation in black. If > you are using mediums as brood chambers, eggs and young larva are very hard > to see against new white foundation. And the black is a great aid when > giving a presentations, the eggs and larva stand out beautifully. > > -Tim > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: bee@digistar.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Mailing list Subject: BeePro patties - storage, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just received my 10-pack of ready-made BeePro patties and am wondering what the best means for storage is since I have 10 packs and 2 hives... I remember reading in the Hive & Honeybee book that pollen can be frozen but it loses its value over time and when left unrefrigerated can lose all of its value in a month or two. I'm going to put a patty each on each hive this afternoon (the instructions say face down for a single hive body colony) - I hope they take to it quickly. Thanks, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Hive status in Boston area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two hives seem to be doing well. I left the hives alone for 6 days and decided that today, being 65F, would be a good time to remove the queen cage and add the BeePro ready-made Patties to each hive. The first hive which has been sort of weak from the beginning had no was foundation buildup, but lots of yellow travel marks across the wood. They have set up shop in the front right corner of the hive; i'm guessing because of the slight gaps between the supers. I put a piece of masking tape around the edges between the supers to cut down on the drafts. It's been real windy up here in Boston so I suspect that's one reason why. I also added the 10th frame. Hopefully, between the BeePro, the sugar syrup and some warm days coming up they will have a chance to get better established. The second hive (this is a real barn burner, an "All American" package from Weaver) has formed a small piece of comb about 3 inches in diameter in the same vicinity as the other hive, in the right front of the body. I noticed that it moved a bit when I put the frame back into the body so I don't think it's firmly planted against the plasticell foundation yet. This colony is very active, but then again the entire package was alive with only about 50 dead bees in the bottom of the package. I added the 9th and 10th frame to this package today, plus a BeePro patty. They've also taken about an inch more syrup than the other colony. I hope they mind their own business and don't decide to raid the other colony. Anyway, that's the short and long of it. I apologize for sending a "diary" of my activities but am tossing my "Bee work habits" out there to those of you with experience to tell me if this is the wrong way or right way to go about things. I am planning on taking a very brief look at each hive a week from this saturday to see how they've taken the beepro and to replace them if needed. I also plan to check the syrup in a few days to see if it needs to be refilled. I was laughing to myself as I tried to put a little smoke to the hives because the amount of smoke I was getting was pretty darned weak - all this talk about keeping it lit - I had less smoke than an idle cigarette burning, but this was probably for the best i'm guessing since it did keep them content and inside without swarming around. Thanks to everyone on the list! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030425074556.027bfec0@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Tim Arheit > > My only complaint is that they don't make medium foundation in black. If > you are using mediums as brood chambers, eggs and young larva are > very hard > to see against new white foundation. And the black is a great aid when > giving a presentations, the eggs and larva stand out beautifully. Odd. All my mediums (put in and drawn last year, I did quite a few, as I am switching to all mediums) are black. Brushy Mtn at least carried it then (and I believe still does). Shallow only comes in white (there), I believe, as shallos are usually used for honey supers. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:31:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If natural is what you are striving for, I would think the top bar hive would be a step in that direction. I have a friend who has what he calls a Kenyan top bar hive, and he said it did better than his other hives last year. But he might have a slight bias toward the "natural" approach. His Langstroth hives seemed a bit neglected to me. A point worth remembering is that the way that gives you the most satisfaction is the right way for you. I like wax foundation. I am new enough at this to enjoy even putting new frames together. At my local supplier's recommendation I am using wired wax for the brood chambers and Plasticell for the honey supers. I have known people who love wooden boats, and the spend all their time working on them. I know other people who love to go boating. They have fiberglass boats. Steve Noble South Whidbey Island, Wa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Lost swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was reminded of a swarm that I lost years ago at dusk. Hived the swarm with no problems, but decided to wait until dusk to take the hive home. Gave no thought to the mercury vapor light on the pole overhead. Guess where all the bees went when darkness turned the light on? Talk about shock and awe! Live and learn. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 05:50:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: Hive status in Boston area In-Reply-To: <3EA98AA8.1060900@digistar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It sounds like they might be building comb between the frames without attaching it to either one, you might want to check (gently!) before they get this far http://hometown.aol.com/pvsm123/myhomepage/photo.html Good Luck! --- Jason Buchanan wrote: > The second hive (this is a real barn burner, an "All > American" package > from Weaver) has formed a small piece of comb about > 3 inches in diameter > in the same vicinity as the other hive, in the right > front of the body. > I noticed that it moved a bit when I put the frame > back into the body so > I don't think it's firmly planted against the > plasticell foundation > yet. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read the give and take on the merits of plastic foundation. Here are my two cents worth. I have tried most every type of foundation (in my dozen hives) over the last 15 years. My vote goes with the old fashioned bent wire foundation. Yes, it takes more time. Yes, it is more fragile and susceptible to wax moths. But my unscientific trials of plastic foundation - even Duragilt - lead me to believe that they do not work as well as simple beeswax. I sense a resistance to working on the plastic. (Have you seen a spot on the Duragilt where the wax has peeled off?) Tradition is not a bad thing. If I were earning my living with bees, I might do an efficiency study to see if the problems with plastic products were overshadowed by profit. I'm not. I don't criticize those who find they can increase their hourly income with plastic. But because I have grown my equipment holdings as my time and interest increased, I never had to make a huge investment in constructing many frames all at one time. For those who suggest that tradition should not stop us from progressing, I suggest that knowing the chemical composition of honey should allow us to synthesize honey in a lab. Who needs bees? Well, I do. I am just old fashioned and enjoy it that way. I would never tell others they need to be like me. It's just me. There is nothing wrong with the bee's own wax for foundation - doing it just as they have done it for a million years. I wonder if the Darwinians would contend that if plastic foundation were better the bees would have developed plastic-producing glands on their bellies instead of wax glands? (just being factious...) Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Re: Hive status in Boston area In-Reply-To: <20030426125042.76084.qmail@web40102.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Kraus wrote: > It sounds like they might be building comb >between the frames without attaching it to either one, > you might want to check (gently!) before they get >this far >http://hometown.aol.com/pvsm123/myhomepage/photo.html > > Good picture - that looks very much like what the were doing - the piece of comb that they had made already was only about 3 inches in diameter but that looks a lot like what they might be up to. I will check it out tomorrow when the weather is better. Is there a way to fix this? Scrape off the comb and make them start from scratch? Thanks, Jason :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:38:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question for some of you bee keeps. I have four of my hives at my house for the apple trees and garden. I have never had trouble with any of them to date. But today I worked on some of my rabbit cages. And no matter where I walked the bees looked me up and stung me. No one else in the family or visitors had any trouble. Have any of you had this problem after messing with rabbits. I lost count of the number of stings, and was getting gun shy before the day was over.:) There was 5 of us at one time working. And they got after me. To everyones amusement:) preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Swingers I am looking to drive a swinger to see how it would fit me for future hive moving. I have sat in some Bobcats and my 6'6", 265 pound (120 kg) frame does not go in them well and the foot pedals are bear to operate when you have size 14 feet. Does anyone use swingers that would be willing to let me drive one? I am located in Greenville NC but would travel quite a distance to test before purchasing down the line. Closest I know of is a dealer in PA that sells something similar to a swinger. I am also curious what people that move hives on pallets think of their current and/or former equipment choices. Thank you for any assistance provided! Joe Miller email beejb4@cox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 25 Apr 2003 to 26 Apr 2003 (#2003-117) In-Reply-To: <200304270401.h3R3toDJ008739@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 4/26/03 23:00, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: Preacher wrote: > Have any of you had this problem after messing with > rabbits. (being stung) Questions: 1. Had the other people been working with the rabbits also? 2. Have you worked the rabbits before without any trouble with being stung? 3. Were you wearing a new/different aftershave lotion or cologne? Bees seem to attack according to pheromones according to what I have learned. Mike South central Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:28:34 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <000701c30c5d$b15c1680$db22dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: [BEE-L] question > But today I worked on some of my rabbit cages. And no matter > where I walked > the bees looked me up and stung me. No one else in the family or visitors > had any trouble. As a former pig farmer I had this problems too, if I forgot to take a shower and put on fresh clothes. The same goes for when I take care of my in house rabbits, but not my outdors rabbits. also try to avoid soap and other personal stuff with perfume. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software new url for update : http://home4.inet.tele.dk/apimo/Bidata_langUP.zip should not give time out. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:42:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ken Parker Subject: Robbing Problem This is my first year keeping bees. I have 2 hives that started as 5-frame nucs. Over the last week or so I've noticed increased activity around the hives. Upon closer inspection, I can see a great many Italian bees entering and exiting my hives (my bees are Carniolan). I suspect the sugar syrup I'm feeding is attracting them although the feeder is of the hive-top variety. Moving the hives isn't really an option right now since they are in my backyard and can't be moved very far. Should reducing the hive entrance be done now or is it too late? Any help with this would be appreciated. I want to ensure that my hives grow enough in population through the summer and build enough comb to have enough stores to last the winter. Thanks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Robbing Problem Do you see a bunch of dead bees out front? If your hives were five frames strong I'm sure they would have defended themselves. If you don't see any dead bees or fighting, maybe your queens had some Italian drones mate with them. If you don't want to open up the hive and check, look to see if any of the yellow bees are carrying in pollen. If you write back with more of that type of detail, I'm sure someone can help you. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:34:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Robbing Problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/03 10:15:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenpkr@CHARTER.NET writes: << Should reducing the hive entrance be done now or is it too late? Any help with this would be appreciated. >> It is never too late to use an entrance reducer; and, when installing NUCS it is a good idea to always use an entrance reducer, at least until 9 or even 10 frames are fully drawn from foundation with the widest width of the entrance reducer in use only after seven or eight frames are drawn out with the queen laying and the hivebody is getting full of bees. Any time a "weak hive" or a NUC is being fed sugar syrup, you should use an entrance reducer, and especially when there is no honey flow. An entrance reducer is also great for keeping mice out in the fall, winter and spring while keeping the entrance at a 3/4 inch depth. Regards, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC (Where the tulip popular, LIRIODENDRON tulipifera, and the black locust, ROBINIA pseudoacacia, is currently forcing the bees to really work hard and to forget about the queen mating boxes with a frame of honey in each and no entrance reducer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:18:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <000701c30c5d$b15c1680$db22dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Apr 2003 at 20:38, preacher wrote: > But today I worked on some of my rabbit cages. And no matter > where I walked the bees looked me up and stung me. My uncle was a beekeeper and dairy farmer. He told me once that he had learned never to work with cows, then go to the bees, without taking a shower and getting on clean clothes. The bees don't seem to like the odor. But then again, his hives were in the pasture, and they didn't seem to bother the cows. Once in awhile a cow would tip over one that was supered up, probably by scratching herself against it.... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:21:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Robbing Problem In-Reply-To: <200304271342.h3RDX2DD016399@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Apr 2003 at 9:42, Ken Parker wrote: > Should reducing the > hive entrance be done now or is it too late? Yes! Close the entrance to one bee width, immediately if not sooner. Whether it's too late will be evident in a couple days. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:43:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inspired by a swarm that took over an empty hive that had frames but no foundation and drew perfect comb in just the right place in the brood box, this last year I have taken to 'wiring' frames with fishing line (doesn't go rusty when the combs are fumigated with acetic acid) and just providing starter strips. Works fine. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Robbing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken Parker asks about potential robbing of nucs being fed sugar syrup. First, the fact that you are seeing 'yellow' bees entering and exiting the hives, and you are supposed to have Carniolans, should not necessarily be of concern. Queens mate with up to 20 drones and they store the sperm in 'layers'. For that reason, it is not at all unusual to see a mixture of colors among the workers; they all have the same mother, but may have different fathers. Color is just one inherited trait. Another is aggressiveness. It is not at all unusual to have a gentle hive 'turn' aggressive, or vice versa. Again, different fathers may account for that. After turning aggressive, they may again turn back to gentle, etc. But I digress. Look at the entrance to the hive. Are there bees bringing in pollen? If so, you probably don't have anything to worry about. If not, you may. Open the hive and lift out a frame or two from the center. See eggs or young larvae? All is ok. Don't see any? Probably trouble. Lift out an end frame. Lots of nectar or sealed honey? All is ok. No nectar and cells open with ragged edges. Trouble. If you see eggs or larvae, and end frames with lots of cells open with ragged edges, you have robbing but it has not proceeded to the point of ruining your hive. Immediately close the entrance to allow passage on only one bee. Keep this way for two weeks, then reopen. Keep feeding. Don't want to go into the hive for the suggested inspection? Please give your bees and hives away to someone who will not be afraid. Beekeepers have an obligation to regularly inspect their hives, which means a few stings are inevitable. Hope I have helped. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:21:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Robbing Problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ken, You should have had a reducer in right from the beginning until the colonies are well populated to defend themselves. Right now, reduce the entrance size to not more than 1/2" or 3/4" wide, remove feeder for a few days. After you find only Carniolans in front of the colony, start feeding again and increase entry size as the population grows. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:43:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Larry Krengel" wrote: "I wonder if the Darwinians would contend that if plastic foundation were better the bees would have developed plastic-producing glands on their bellies instead of wax glands? (just being factious...)" No, not fractious - that is the point. Respect for nature, as it has evolved over not one million years but at least 34 million according to the fossils. (Always humbling to reflect that Home Sapiens - wise man - has been around only 1/4 of one million). The scientific - rather than just romantic - point is that, as bees evolved, they developed behaviours to suit conditions in which they had to adapt or die. They were good at it. The behaviours that encouraged survival became instincts, fixed in their genes. Bees have impressive powers of measurement and calculations, but do not seem to be able to reason - only man can do that. So if we impose on bees something artificial (meaning man-made, not occurring in the natural world), bees have only their instincts to guide their response. Bees never met plastic within their brood nest in 34 million years. So the question is, how will they respond and will that be beneficial? If they can learn a new trick, all is well and bees will be on the way to developing a new instinct. If the jump is too much, they will be disorientated, demoralised (as humans are when faced with a problem too large for them to cope) and stressed - stress seems to affect the immune systems of aninimals including humans, and shows up in increase of disease. (Remember the study on the crew of a US warship isolated at sea - there was direct correlation between falling ill and problems at home). Observations of response to plastic have been mixed. Some users have said bees do not like it and nibble off the wax coating but can be forced to draw it out by creating an artificial nectar flow ahead of the natural flow. Others more recently are saying no difference against wax foundation. My guess on the nibbling is that bees' instinct is to remove anything that obstructs the space in their cavity - they nibble the sides of a tree cavity to remove loose material, then coat everything with propolis. Why might they not like having sheets of plastic slicing through the brood nest? Well, honeybee nest architecture is a natural miracle. Honeybees have evolved a way to make their nests wholly of pure material, all secreted from their own bodies, without incorporating say paper as wasps do - they can mould the wax to produce cells of different sizes distributed around the nest as they wish, moulding the cell bases simultaneously from both sides (how easily do bees work when the sides of the comb are isolated by rigid plastic, how easily are drone cells built on plastic worker base?) The brood nest is the womb of the colony, considered as a single super-organism. Here the fertilised eggs are laid, embedded onto the cell walls in much like the way a fertile human egg is implanted in the womb (how readily do queens lay in a cell with plastic underlying the base? We know wires in wax foundation are unnatural - and that the bees leave empty cells down the wires when laying out a new comb). Here the delicate embryos are fed a carefully controlled diet, so well adapted to needs that they multiply their body weight XXX times in only six days. The needs of each larva are detected by the ordours given off, the diet varying with age (does the plastic emit a foreign smell as it decays, which all plastics seem to do?). The temperature and especially the humidity are carefully controlled or the larvae can be chilled and become sick (how does the conductivity of plastic compare?). Disease organisms are endemic, eager to perpetuate their own life cycles by parasitising the delicate larvae. The bees know how to collect naturally occurring antibiotics with which to sterilise and varnish the cells between use (does plastic in the comb help or hinder disease organisms?) The older bees communicate by dancing on the combs, using buzzing runs to communicate distance and direction to food sources, and a swarm issues after scout bees have worked the bees into a frenzy of excitement by performing buzzing runs on the combs (is the natural resonance of the combs affected?). Virgin queens also pipe to send vibrations thru the combs - bees do not hear air-borne sound. So, when we force the bees to accept a foreign unknown substance in the layers between the cell bottoms, how much do we know of how that may affect the bees by changing the malleability, conductivity, flexibility ? Do we know if it induces stress, by creating conditions the bees are unable to bring back to normal, and how much do we care? Are we simply exploiters, enslavers, of the bee - or carers, interested in and admiring the natural order within the nest? The main argument in favour of plastic foundation seems to be that it saves the beekeeper's time. Surely the best way for a hobbyist to save time, if not interested in bee behaviour, is to keep fewer colonies better or to give up beekeeping? For avoidance of doubt, can I emphasise that all this concerns only plastic as used for comb foundation. Writing on 24 April, Jim Fischer seemed unable to distinguish between plastic foundation and " metal hive tools, nylon bee brushes, plastic queen excluders, stainless-steel extractors, tin smokers ...." I am still hoping these other items are not routinely left within brood nests. Jim also sticks to comparing plastic for hobby use with wax foundation fitted to pre-wired frames rather than wired wax sheets. Pre-wired frames need special equipment for efficient management, which the hobbyist does not have and obviously would find such frames slow. I was told this weekend of a Danish firm that makes its own strong wooden wired frames. After use, a complete box is placed in a steam chamber, then dropped into a boiling tank with soda, then rinsed by power washing. The individual frames are laid on a jig, the wires hand-tightened with a crimper, then thick unwired foundation is dropped on. The whole frame is pushed forward onto the transformer and the foundation is fixed in seconds. One worker rewaxes 7,000 frames each winter. The bees scrape out the thick cell bases and use the wax to build up the cell walls. That's business, not hobby work. Obviously a business would also bolt 4 drills to a jig and drill six frame bars with each pull of a lever when making the frames. Jim's estimate of time for working with wax foundation has no relevance to either hobbyist or professional. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:23:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Rowman Subject: Re: Comments on beekeeping ordinance Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 > Automatic digest processor wrote: > As an apiary inspector that has many years experience dealing with nisance bee complaints in urban areas I use to wonder whether our legislation was adequate. In short our legislation is simple in that it provides the Director of the Dept of Agriculture the power to restrict or prohibit beekeeping on certain land where it is determined that the practice of beekeeping causes a public nuisance or threat to public health or safety. This clause is open to broad interpretation and application. Having read through the Fort Collins ordinance I feel comfortable with the legislation I am dealing with. The reason I say this is that out of about three hundred nuisance bee complaints in the last six years I would have recommended prohibition in about 25 cases. I have always used prohibition as a last resort. In most cases of prohibition it is due to a public health issue. In a couple of unfortunate cases I have actually had beekeepers deliberatley use there bees as a tool in neighbourly feuds. With open and flexible legislation to work with and an industry backed Code of Practice I can educate both beekeeper and complainant, help amateur beekeepers with management practices that will reduce the impact of beekeeping on their neighbours and eventually resolve the issues of a complaint. I do this with the support of the Amateur Beekeeper's Associations who regularly discuss the issues of urban beekeeping. I would be interested in hearing the impact and how effective the ordinance will be. Will it be an imposition on urban beekeepers, most of whom do the right thing anyway? Will it reduce the number of complaints? Will this eventually lead to the demise of the urban beekeeper in Aurora, or will it make it a win-win situation for both beekeeper and non-beekeeper in urban environments? After reading the highly specific and strongly worded Fort Collins ordinance I think our more simple and open legislation is the more workable option. Rob Bowman Senior Inspector NSW Agriculture Sydney Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:47:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Essential oils MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > > This is understandable once one considers that each essential > > oil contains dozens of chemicals > > Dozens??? How many dozen in thymol? Clarification would appear to be required. In UK... Thymol is a white crystaline solid that sublimes to a vapour with no liquid state (at least at room temps). Are you talking about Thyme oil? Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:54:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bees have > impressive powers of measurement and calculations, but do not seem to > be able to reason - only man can do that... > Remember the study on the crew of a US warship > isolated at sea - there was direct correlation between falling ill > and problems at home... The treatise from which I quote is an interesting exercise in rhetoric, but a faulty demonstration of the reasoning powers of homo sapiens. > Why might they not like having sheets of plastic slicing through the > brood nest? > We know wires in wax foundation are unnatural - and that the bees leave > empty cells down the wires when laying out a new comb). Or sheets of altered and often impure foreign beeswax? As Dee Lusby has demonstrated so well, the entire idea of using foundation -- whether plastic or wax -- is not in any way 'natural'. Nor is managing bees, housing bees in regtangular wooden boxes of any sort on or near the ground, the use of nails glues, wires, or paint, 'natural'. I always attributed the empty cells on the first several rounds to the toxicity of the metal to larvae. Abstruse philosophical arguments aside, to most of us the question of importance when examining any new bee stock, system, or product is simply, "Does it work?". The answer, in the case of any of the many varieties of plastic foundation -- is not entirely clear or universal, but seems to have much to do with the experience and intelligence of the beekeeper trying the product, the season, and the product being tried, as well as the beekeeper's expectations. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ A Spring storm in Alberta illustrated, and more... The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt --Bertrand Russell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:07:33 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee-L Plastic foundation Robin Dartington said: > Almost all foundation here is beeswax, if wired then > bought prewired. Well, someone sure is buying a lot of plastic foundation in the UK. The Pierco distributor for the UK says that sales have been good, despite the last 2 years of poor honey crops in the UK. The distributor also talks about "container loads" (meaning a multi-mode container of the type that goes on a ship, train, or truck), which hold a very large number of sheets of foundation. > [imbedding wax foundation into the wires] Certainly sounds > difficult. It was an old American habit I believe. The original question came from a novice who uses the larger langstroth-sized frames, and while UK-sized frames may be small enough to not need cross-wiring in some cases, US frames are large enough that they simply would not withstand extraction even at low speeds. Frames of pre-wired foundation without cross-wiring of some sort are "extractor hand-grenades", weapons of mass destruction nearly as messy as the recently-discovered Iraqi "Honey Nut Cluster Bombs". http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/flood/honeynut.jpg > Quite a few beekeepers here produce honey as cut comb, > using thin unwired wax foundation. Clearly, comb honey is a special case, and is a non-sequitur in a discussion about wiring frames versus plastic foundation. > Wouldn't like to eat American cut comb, with a sheet of > plastic down the middle. Cute. > But what a dumb way to do it... Much less cute. > ...You just cut out the whole comb , wires and all, and refit another > wired sheet. As more UK beekeepers give up the time-consuming practice of suspending their comb horizontally to "drip" and get extractors, including the newer "parallel radial" extractors, they will find that the newer techniques for cross-wiring frames ("zig zag wiring", stapled into the frames with hoop staples, which is much faster than traditional "cross wiring"), are a very good idea, even when using pre-wired foundation, if one wants to preserve and reuse one's drawn comb for future harvests. The point to all this is that what may be possible to get away with when using the smaller UK sized frames and/or when not extracting at all is not a basis for advising a novice in North America, where things are bigger, and things spin that much faster. jim (who is supering with wild abandon this week) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:59:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rett Thorpe Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" May I add a new wrinkle to this thread? Assuming they all work (to some degree). Which is easiest to work with, Plastic or Duragilt? Obviously Plastic is easier to "construct", but that issue aside is there any difference? Rett Thorpe Salt Lake City, UT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Plastic foundation Robin Dartington "waxed poetic": > Respect for nature, as it has evolved... > Bees never met plastic within their brood > nest in 34 million years. They also never met square hives, removable frames, or equipment designed to present "bee space". All would appear to be "bigger" changes than mere foundation. > So the question is, how will they respond and will that be > beneficial? If one were to argue that bees need to "adapt" to plastic foundation, one would be forced to admit that ANY foundation would be more of an unexpected change and a "challenge" to the bees' adaptive ability than the type of foundation. Perhaps the argument would be better framed as "why use foundation at all"? As for me, I'll keep framing foundation, rather than framing philosophical questions about issues that have been settled by centuries of study and practical experience among beekeepers. I think that several centuries of use are enough of a (ahem) "foundation" for a consensus that foundation is a good idea. But if one's goal is to "keep bees naturally", and "respect nature", then perhaps one should NOT keep bees, and simply observe them in their "native habitat", the honey tree. > If they can learn a new trick, all is well and bees will be > on the way to developing a new instinct. I don't see the reasoning here. If provided with an empty frame, bees will drawn comb. Perhaps not nice straight comb, and perhaps drone comb rather than worker-sized comb, so we "encourage" them to draw better comb by providing foundation of one sort or another. What would a bee have to "learn" to utilize any type of foundation, given that the foundation simply takes advantage of well-understood existing bee behavior? > If the jump is too much, they will be disorientated, demoralised... > ... and stressed But again, if one is going to speculate about wax-coated plastic foundation, mustn't one first admit that the "big surprise" would be ANY foundation, regardless of type? > Observations of response to plastic have been mixed. Observations of any aspect of beekeeping "have been mixed". You can't blame the gear for the actions of the beekeeper. Beekeepers are often wrong, but seldom uncertain. Beekeepers are also seldom in agreement. This inherently leads to "mixed reviews" of everything and anything. This has no effect on the bees, which have proven to be able to thrive through it all under conditions that we now know to have been misguided, and, in many cases, clearly detrimental to the bees. > Well, honeybee nest architecture is a natural miracle. A miracle that was studied and understood, thus resulting in the modern beehive, bee space, foundation, etc. >(does the plastic emit a foreign smell as it decays, which all > plastics seem to do?). No, and no. If you lean a sheet of plastic foundation outside against the wall of your house, it would outlast you, and might outlast your house. Check the accelerated life-cycle testing data. Archeologists are sure to find plastic foundation when excavating the ruins of my farm in the year 4670. > Virgin queens also pipe to send vibrations thru the combs True. > bees do not hear air-borne sound. Absolutely False. Bees can and do hear airborne sound, as has been shown by carefully-crafted experiments. The organ is named the "Johnston's organ". It is at the base of the antenna. Many insects have highly similar hardware. To understand bees, it helps to know their basic anatomy and physiology. > Do we know if it induces stress, by creating conditions the > bees are unable to bring back to normal If colony stress resulted, beekeepers would notice. They haven't, so it doesn't. > Are we simply exploiters, enslavers, of the bee Nope, they can (and do) leave anytime they want to! :) > - or carers, interested in and admiring the natural order within the nest? Any comparison between a hybrid bee in a man-made nest and a "natural" bee in its native habitat is useless. The mere use of hybrid queens and the act of requeening invalidates any comparison. > The main argument in favour of plastic foundation seems to be that it saves > the beekeeper's time. There are many better reasons to use modern materials. The biggest single reason is that it eliminates the build-up of ever-more concentrated toxic compounds that are slowing building up in foundation as beekeepers continue to recycle wax that has been exposed to miticides, medications, and PDB. > Jim Fischer seemed unable to distinguish between plastic foundation and > " metal hive tools, nylon bee brushes, plastic queen excluders..." > I am still hoping these other items are not routinely left within brood nests. Queen excluders don't work so well unless they are IN the hive, do they? I can go on... plastic frames, plastic hives, plastic feeders, plastic press-in queen introduction cages, plastic feeder buckets... > Jim's estimate of time for working with wax foundation has no relevance > to either hobbyist or professional. Well, it takes me 5 seconds to snap a sheet of plastic foundation into a frame. The only question is how much longer any other approach requires, as they all require more time and effort. Time and effort are clearly important to both the hobbyist and the professional, since many hobbyists have a "real world life", and must do other things than keep bees, and the professional needs to reduce labor costs to stay competitive with imported honey. Sounds very relevant to me. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Swingers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said: I have sat in some Bobcats and my 6'6", 265 pound (120 kg) frame does not go in them well and the foot pedals are bear to operate when you have size 14 feet. Both the Bobcat and the swinger are not built for a man of your size. You will need to drive the swinger sitting at an angle due to your size. The clearance between the seat and the dash is too close for a big person such as yourself. My partner is your size and he can not drive sitting correctly which is very tiring for him.. I sit at a slight angle myself while driving the swinger. My partner said to me while in California. "We have got to make a trip into town as I have broken off the swinger key with my knee". The placement of the key has changed on the new swingers for the above reason. Does anyone use swingers that would be willing to let me drive one? I would contact Dean Voss of Apiaries and Orchard Forklifts and ask Dean to point you to a beekeeper using the swinger forklift in your area . No need to travel a great distance as I am sure there are many swingers in the Georgia and north Florida area. www.swingerforklift.com Swingers will be on display at the ABF convention in Jacksonville in January if you are not in a hurry. Dean always invites beekeepers to test drive the forklifts. I believe Dean is the most knowledgeable person on the swinger forklift I ever met and freely provides a wealth of swinger information. Talk to dean *before* you buy used. Joe asked: I am also curious what people that move hives on pallets think of their current and/or former equipment choices. The swinger forklift is the most popular choice by far with the beekeepers I met in California. The old 610 bobcat is still very popular with beekeepers . Especially with the added back wheel. According to my friends at Kansas City Bobcat most of the old 610 hydrostats are worn so bad now that repair is not advised. If you can find a 610 in excellent working order the 610 will work for many migratory applications but most serious migratory beekeepers prefer the swinger forklift in my opinion. Many still use the newer bobcats and love the Bobcats but they are in my opinion harder for people not familiar with their use to use. A few dumped hives and a couple hundred stings and the education is *usually* complete. Both will turn over if not careful. Always haul with skids close to the ground. My partner believes the Bobcat is easier to turn over as he turned his last Bobcat over and moved up to a swinger. I almost turned my swinger over last week and admit seeing a wheel with over a foot of air between the wheel and the ground did make me remember how easy it is to turn both over. In my opinion the swinger beats the bobcat in every area except price but many beekeepers with Bobcats which have never driven the swinger might argue differently. I prefer the swinger for these reasons. 1. hydrostat 2. wider wheels and better in serious mud (in my opinion). 3. articulating which makes loading in close quarters easy 4. Comes standard with sliding forks don't like: 1. With the articulating frame you wear front tires if working on concrete by turning the wheel. Bobcat: 1. Easy to get parts 2. used Bobcats are plentiful Don't like: 1. hard to find used Bobcat with sliding forks ( many beekeepers feel these are unnecessary but help when going four skids high on a semi in my opinion) 2. easier to turn over in my opinion. 3.foot pedals are not as handy as hand pedals. You can However buy the Canada version of the Bobcat with standard hand controls on certain models. Choose wisely when buying a used Bobcat or Swinger. Parts are available for both but repair is expensive and time consuming. Go by number of hours and not year when choosing. Both are usually for sale in the American Bee Journal and every once in awhile a *swamper* which is similar to a swinger which I have never seen or used but are popular with beekeepers. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:02:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive status in Boston area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jason Buchanan qwrite on 25 April: "I apologize for sending a "diary" of my activities but am tossing my "Bee work habits" out there to those of you with experience to tell me if this is the wrong way or right way to go about things." No, you should. But the picture that is emerging on this list of the way beginners have been advised by people (unknown) of establishing a new bee colony is absolutely horrific. Before starting to look after a colony, have u been to any bee course or read any bee books? This is not just being clever - it is a serious attempt to get to grips with what is going on in the hobbyist world. Have u gained a firm basis in bee biology, by say reading a basic primer and then say Winston's 'Biology of the Honeybee'? If not, what do think bees are - robots? What on earth are these "BeePro ready-made Patties" ? Do bees live naturally in your area? If so,do you need to rely on artificial patties at this time!. Or do you live in a desert? If so, you need very serious advice on maintaining colonies for scientific purposes. If not, for goodness sake, trust 34 million years of evolution, not a local quack. "lots of yellow travel marks across the wood". Your bees have a tummy upset. They will get over it when they can fly freely. "I also added the 10th frame". A 10th frame? Just how big is this colony? I'm lost . It seemed small. It seemed a small, unhappy lot that needed nuturing. A 10th frame? Was it occupying at least 8 to 9 frames? Just who is guiding you? Are you being taken for a ride by the bee suppliers? "the plasticell foundation" Are your bees unnatural? A they so delibilated they cannot build their own combs, as they have done for 34 million years? If so, do you think they have a great future? Dear beekeeper, examine your beekeeping! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:54:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sperm storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/04/03 05:08:56 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Queens mate with up to 20 drones and they store the sperm in 'layers'. >> Lloyd, Can you point me towards authorities for this please? I thought the jury was still out on whether it was stored layered or mixed, but perhaps I am out of date. Chris PS I thought of you at Stoneleigh where I saw 'Circomb' on sale. Is this the same as Ross Rounds? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:09:54 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Limited harvests in supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Over several years (and often during the Rape (Canola) nectar flow), it has appeared to me that the following happens. The bloom starts, reaches apparent peak situation and starts to decline (all taking approx. 5 weeks - 1 week in April till end of 1st. week in May). During the start, and peak flowering period - limited honey is placed into the supers frames (often two supers being in place). Then as the flower quantity starts to decline - honey starts to appear and the supers filled (usually giving one and half boxes of honey in total - 20+kg.) The hives are Dadaist, 10 frames present in the brood area with 9 frames in each super (termed half boxes if you wish). This has occurred after the spring brood/ adult population increase during the False Acacia and Sweet Chestnut flows (2nd/3rd week in May for former and 2nd./3rd. week in June for latter) Several thoughts on why this might occur include: 1. Colonies developing on the flow - eventually reaching a strength that can deal with nectar flow. 2. Filling brood area first - "excess" area 3. Reluctance to enter supers. 4. Changes in soil humidity levels during flowering period Just to ensure that people realize - all comb present is drawn and ready to receive nectar/ honey. I have seen cases covered by the three points above, but many times, this late appearance of honey is not explained by the above! To the despair of many beekeepers - the cry goes out - "lousy harvest" as the bloom is finishing. Then on the final count, things weren't so bad as thought. Has this been noted by others and if so, what thoughts are given to explain the sudden filling of previously empty frames. Regards, Peter Center West France :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm a beginner hobbyist and having tried twice with Pierco on both a 3lb package and later a swarm I had given up on getting straight comb from my bees with plastic. This year though I ordered 4 more packages and having run a little short on traditional wired frames, again tried the last 10 pierco plastic frames that I had, just to give it "one last go". However this year I did something else different. I bought some of those "beemax" hive top feeders. Before I had used those 1 gallon plastic pails from brushy mountain inverted over the top of the hole on the inner cover. Those pails have a 3/4" screen in them for the bees to get syrup. Not a very big interface. After reading the discussion on the beemax feeders in this forum some months ago I was inspired to give them a try. I though that since there is a much bigger interface to the syrup with the hive top feeders the bees could get more syrup faster and just might draw that Pierco better. And guess what? They did. Just checked the package hive yesterday and they are drawing that comb as straight as you please and have as many plastic frames drawn as the other hives do with the wired wax. Just thought I would mention that the feeder type seems to make a difference with drawing comb on plastic. Billy Smart Rock, KS :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:19:52 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Essential oils In-Reply-To: <119.227dda5e.2bd9d1ea@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depends on what one means by "essential oils". It may sound groovy to bathe in an atmosphere of "essential oils" but how do you know what these oils do when blended together? Mixing different essential oils together for use in beehives can be disastrous, I agree, for the reason that Lloyd points out - the separate components have different volatilities and other properties and therefore the target can be affected in a different ways varying with environmental conditions and synergy or otherwise between the active ingredients. However, AN essential oil on its own may have merit as an effective active ingredient, providing enough research is done into formulation and application methods. For example, wasn't menthol used for quite a while in N. America as a control agent for tracheal mite? Saved a lot of hives I thought. Many respected bee researchers and scientists "over the pond" here in Europe have worked on and recommend some individual essential oils; thymol in particular is held in high regard as a reliable control agent, depending on the presentation. I don't think there's any getting away from the natural variation in effect from one colony to the next but good formulation should be able to minimise those differences and provide a reasonable control. I don't think we can rely entirely on any one treatment in future, IPM has to come in at some stage, even if it does mean more work. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:45:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When Dadant introduced PLASTICELL foundation about 25 years ago, I was so fed up with wiring frames, and affixing foundation to the wire on 5000 frames each year, I jumped at the use of Plasticell. I wish it was available when I started beekeeping in 1932. DuraGilt should have NEVER BEEN INVENTED. If, for any reason, the wax is damaged and you scrape it off, there is absolutely NO WAY to FORCE the bees to rebuild that comb. I despise DURAGILT. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rett asked: Assuming they all work (to some degree). Which is easiest to work with, Plastic or Duragilt? Bees spool wax like a potter making pottery if enough wax is on the foundation. Commercial beekeepers used to special order foundation twice as thick as is commonly available. Bees would draw the wax out in half the time. Duragilt has its drawbacks but also has advantages over wiring frames. The amount of wax on the plastic foundation sold today is very thin. If the coating was three times thicker then the bees would jump on and draw plastic fast *but* the cost of the foundation would raise by about three times the difference between waxed and unwaxed. Might be a market for plastic foundation with double/ triple wax coating. I use the unwaxed with success but recommend the waxed for beginners. Foundation is simply a pattern for the bees to follow . Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::