From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:25:44 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730D949051 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeC011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0304E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 63862 Lines: 1433 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Hive status in Boston area > What on earth http://www.matisse.net/earth.html > are these "BeePro ready-made Patties" ? http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page29.htm http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page30.htm http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm > Do bees live naturally in your area? http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&city=Boston&state=MA > If so, do you need to rely on artificial patties at this time? http://www.thegardenhelper.com/hardiness.htm http://www.thegardenhelper.com/hzm-ne1.html http://www2.dicom.se/fuchsias/eurozoner.html > Or do you live in a desert? http://www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1737,158173-238207,00.html > If so, you need very serious advice on maintaining > colonies for scientific purposes. http:/www.barc.usda.gov/psi/brl > If not, for goodness sake, trust 34 million years of > evolution, http://www.americanscientist.org/articles/95articles/cdeduve.html > not a local quack. http://www.halcyon.com/donace/DUCKS.HTM > A 10th frame? Just how big is this colony? http://www.beesource.com/plans/langstroth.htm > Just who is guiding you? http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Early_sp.pdf > Are you being taken for a ride http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/02images/02toronto/hummer-h2.jpg > Are your bees unnatural? http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/clrbee.jpg > If so, do you think they have a great future? http://www.nba.org.nz/NBASFFWorkshopMemo.PDF jim (with tongue firmly embedded in cheek to a depth not measurable by current instrumentation technology) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Queen Quit Laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine too update! When checking my packages installed last Saturday to insure queens had been released I went back into the hive that had no evidence of eggs or queen. I pulled the first frame to examine and found eggs-one per cell, centered in the bottom-so looks as if the queen is alive and kicking-long live the queen!!! Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:55:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: A new one on me! Update.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For those who wanted to know the fate of my nuc from which the queen flew away from, subsequent inspection revealed that the flighty queen came home to roost. Long live the queen! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:47:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hive status in Boston area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What on earth are these "BeePro ready-made Patties" ? Do bees live > naturally in your area? If so,do you need to rely on artificial > patties at this time!. Or do you live in a desert? I doubt that bees naturally swarm in the Boston area at the time of year that the first writer installed package bees. Although there are natural pollen sources available currently, it is possible that there may be days on end when bees cannot get out to gather it due to rain, etc. Moreover, package bees are, on average, more than half used up before they even start to build. When starting on foundation in early spring, the artificial swarm has no protein source except the undependable outdoor sources and the protein reserves in the nurse bees' bodies. Once depleted, these reserves cannot be replaced. Therefore, I would say that our new beekeeper friend was entirely wise and well-informed to give the BeePro patties to his new hives, along with some syrup. In our operation, we always augment protein in spring and, if you have checked my page lately, you will see why. Freak spring storms can keep the bees inside for long periods. Without protein supplementation, our bees might be tearing out brood right now. Of course they would survive, but North American beekeeping is based on more than survival. Our success depends on making sure the bees have lots of food at all times. IMO, our newbee has learned well. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentlestfolks, Allow me to introduce an old topic here at least to get away from the natural/unnatural beekeeping esotericism which invariably insists that everyone keeps bees the way *I* do, assuming everybody can wear his/her straightjacket, regardless of location and circumstances. An elderly couple asked me the other day to remove a colony from the wall of their shed. Repeat, not a swarm, but a two-year-old colony, alive and kicking. Of course, the archival consensus is that most of us charge for the removal of an existing colony while many do not for simple swarm- removal although some lucky ones do. In my area, I have been charging for a colony-removal about $150, a flexible flat fee, depending on the size and difficulty associated with the chore and the economic status of the people asking; I much dislike the mess of rubber-banding the brood and the whole sticky mess although that is the only way to rescue the brood. The elderly man whined that they were on social security although he and his wife own 230 acres. Considering all that I told him I would charge a cott’n pick’n $50 for the gas and the time spent; however, he said he had to talk to his wife. The man then said he would rather spray the bees although I warned him that was against the State law. Of course, I explained the possibility that his bees could have mites and other problems, which might necessitate expensive treatment. He did not call me back. At this point, I feel I should just call him and do it for free to save the bees. And am still debating. Now I love to save the bees—-given that I collect the feral bees so that I do not treat them no matter what—-as an experiment to prove Adrian’s earlier postulation that there could be pathogen-resistant bees out there in the outback, of Oklahoma, in this case. Certainly, I can do without the chicken feed $50 I wanted to charge; however, I really do not like the attitude shown by people against the beekeeper. Now if you call an exterminator for other insect problems, they will pay nearly $200 without a word of complaint. But when it comes to honey bees, these people must be thinking that I come and get them free? Sure, I love bees. But does that mean I drive about thirty miles one way and spent about three hours and rescue the bees free of charge? Given the small size of the colony, I am almost certain the bees do not have much wild honey at this swarm season: they pretty much consumed the reserve for brood-explosion. Sure, I am willing to accept that these bees are free of disease. I took down a similar size yesterday and there was very little honey for me to take. But I can use the bees to strengthen another. [when I combined them, I saw at least three queens in there—one from the original and two from the one I took down!!!] Should I do it for free? My wife thinks I should; however, I really do not like the general attitude that we remove bees free. Then again the bees must have gotten out from someone’s yard if we trace the original source. I jess dung know. What say you? Yoon People’s Republic of Oklahoma (waiting for the long-waited summer vacation and swarm-chasing season) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:02:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? ----- Original Message ----- From: "yoonytoons" I much dislike the mess of rubber-banding the brood and the whole sticky mess although that is the only way to rescue the brood There is a better way: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/WildColonies.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:32:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Johnston's Organ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/04/03 05:12:42 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Absolutely False. Bees can and do hear airborne sound, as has been shown by carefully-crafted experiments. The organ is named the "Johnston's organ". It is at the base of the antenna. Many insects have highly similar hardware. To understand bees, it helps to know their basic anatomy and physiology. >> Can you tell us more about this please? When I was studying quite some years ago the purpose of the organ was not well understood and was thought to be some sort of air speed indicator. I am probably out of date. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:16:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: another bee dilema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings fellow list members, I need some sound advice regarding my most current bee related dilemma. I started my first hive last spring. It seemed to do well until this spring. For a few weeks now I have noticed a lot of unfortunate bees with deformed wings stumbling out of the hive only to wind up crawling around on the ground until they die. This is probably due to Varroa infestation since I never treated that hive for Varroa mites. I have not otherwise verified the Varroa infestation though. Anyway, On 16 April I installed another three pound package with Queen in a hive of foundation above the old hive separated from it by a Snelgrove double screen. So what I have now is what I suppose would be called a two queen colony even though I might also be considered two separate colonies. The reason I did this (you are no doubt dieing to know) was to give myself time to monitor the ailing old hive and determine if it would be able to stand on its own, or possibly be combined with the new colony once it has gotten well under way. Now it is pretty clear the old colony is not bouncing back, and it seems it might not be not a good idea to combine a sick hive with a healthy new hive. However they are in such close proximity to each other the mites have probably gotten a start in the new hive. The question is should I separate the two colonies, or kill the old queen and combine them. If I should separate them then should I try to save the old colony by treating with Apistan knowing that it is too late for that process to be completed in time to get any honey this year? That is even if treating them succeeds in saving the colony which it very possibly might not. If I should combine the colonies am I nuts not to treat them now even though doing so would mean missing the main flow? I promise I will treat them in the fall no matter what. Steve Noble South Whidbey Island, Wa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:57:33 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, To me it is simple: If one is a professional/commercial beekeeper - then like all professionals, a charge for work concerning bees with third parities should be charged for. If one is hobbyist or the like - then one is free to do a good deed if so wished. Not charging for doing one's job undermines the status of the profession. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:30:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Removing a feeding tank for the first time. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My new hive has had the feeding tank on for about two weeks and I think it's time to remove it and clean it out: it only has about an inch of sugar syrup and that looks pretty mucky: black moldy streaks floating in the liquid and on the sides of the tank. It's Tuesday night and unless I wait until the weekend, the only time I can remove the tank is before or after work. The tank is polystyrene with a clear, movable plastic (not screen) L-shaped bee guard along one side where the bees access the sugar water. After lifting the top and giving the tank a quick eyeball, I noticed the bees have made a little comb along the top edge of the L-shaped bee guard. The Carniolan bees are inside the bee guard and, I assume, still feeding on the sugar water. I have a smoker, which seems over kill for a 30 second job. I also have a packet of liquid smoke I could mix up as well as an aerosol can of something called "Fabi-Spray" with instructions in English, German, etc. Any tips on how I should go about removing the tank so I can clean it out with bleach, rinse it well, and get it back on the hive with the 2 1/2 gallons of sugar water I have prepared in advance? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:45:17 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon reflected on an age old dilemma that hits all beekeepers once the word gets out to the community that they have this unusual predilection for bees. He says "At this point, I feel I should just call him and do it for free[remove the swarm] to save the bees. And am still debating....Should I do it for free? My wife thinks I should; however, I really do not like the general attitude that we remove bees free. Then again the bees must have gotten out from someone's yard if we trace the original source." Even if they did, I too, dislike intensely being used as a free beeswarm removalist, by neighbours, casual associates and friends of friends. Pinned to the wall beside my telephone is a list of telephone numbers for beeswarm removal specialists lifted from my local trade advertising telephone directory. Enquirers to my home number seeking this kind of service,(and there are many each year) are politely referred to these people, many of whom derive their income from filling this community service niche. I have no desire to undermine their businesses and livelihood by providing free or discount services to the community. The strategy works well, and obviates many headaches. I wish I could find such a simple solution to the problem of well intentioned, but misguided, non-commercial beekeepers who provide cheap (below cost of production) honey to the retail market and undermine the businesses and livelihoods of commercial honey producers and packers! Peter Detchon (practicing "live and let live" in Western Australia ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Johnston's Organ Chris said: > Can you tell us more about this please? > When I was studying quite some years ago the > purpose of the organ was not well understood > and was thought to be some sort of air speed indicator. At risk of sounding like Dr. McCoy of the original Star Trek, "I'm a physicist, not an entomologist". About the best I can do is to cite the relevant research, but I am not sure that the Johnston's Organ is a reliable (or useful) indicator of airspeed to bees given the experiments that were done to fool the bees with optical illusions to make them think they were going further than they really were ("optic flow"), and then observe them dancing about a nectar source as if it were the longer ("fooled") distance away. It would appear that as far as distance/airspeed goes, "the eyes have it". :) William Towne, Wolfgang H. Kirchner "Hearing in Honey Bees: Detection of Air-Particle Oscillations" Science 12 May, 1989 (#244: 686-688) (The usual level of stuff one finds in "Science". Overview.) Wolfgang H. Kirchner, Claudia Dreller, William Towne "Hearing in Honeybees: operant conditioning and spontaneous reactions to airborne sound" Journal of Comparative Physiology A 1991 (#168: 85-89) (A very neat little experimental set-up that proves that "airborne sound" matters, although I know of no examples where airborne sound is uniquely used by bees in a practical way.) C. Dreller, W. H. Kirchner "Hearing in honeybees: localization of the auditory sense organ" Journal of Comparative Physiology A 1993 (#173: 275-279) (Proof that the Johnston's Organ is the organ used by bees to detect airborne sound, proven by removal of bee antenna on live bees under test. Rated "V" for Vivisection.) D. C. Sandeman, J. Tautz, M. Lindauer "Transmission of vibration across honeycombs and its detection by bee leg receptors" Journal of Experimental Biology 1996 (#199: 2585-2594) (Very gross - honeybee legs removed from bees and attached to electronics to detect vibration. Rated at least PG-13, but clearly shows that vibrations matter also.) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:09:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: Removing a feeding tank for the first time. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think smoking is highly over rated, I have only two hands and generally choose to work without one unless I have a helper. Of course that tiny grass fire may have swayed me overly in that direction. For quick peeks I try to sneek in and out. Only when robbing do I routinely use it. Does anyone have any thoughts on to use or not to use a smoker? And why? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:21:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Removing a feeding tank for the first time. Paul D. Law said: > My new hive has had the feeding tank... > I think it's time to remove it and clean it out > It's Tuesday night and unless I wait until the > weekend, the only time I can remove the tank is > before or after work. Assuming that the feeder is on top of the inner cover, you may not even need smoke. But light the smoker anyway. A little puff can go a long way. Wait until dusk, and bring a bucket. 1) Remove outer cover. Smoke optional. 2) Lift feeder off, pour liquid into bucket to avoid flooding any bees that may be in the feeder. Tip the feeder >>away<< from the clear plastic thingy to pour off the liquid. 3) If no bees are in/on the feeder, simply replace the outer cover, and walk away with feeder. 4) If bees are in feeder, pop out clear plastic divider, and shake bees onto inner cover. (Use brush for any bees clinging to underside of feeder). Replace outer cover, walk away. 5) Bemoan the lack of any sort of handholds on the polystyrene hive-top feeders as it slips out of your hands. Carefully carve handholds with a razor blade carpet-knife when you clean it, but don't cut too deep! Set the blade to "shallow". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: another bee dilema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NEVER GIVE UP! Yes, Id seperate them ASAP and look into tracael treatment not Varroa, just a guess, but youd SEE the varroa. Go watch them for a while, look at the ailing ones, do they have K wing? I choose to not treat mine if at all possible. Chemical treatment is of questionable use as it is. There is a large school of thought that says to never treat with chemicals. You have some homework to do, and decisions to make. Gather all the facts you can then go look online and ask local beekeepers what they think. Gather all advice possible and then make your move. Good luck and keep us posted! Best get at it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:35:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: European Foul Brood EFB is currently a notifiable disease in the UK and treatment can only carried out by Ministry appointed Officers. It seems that this is likely to change in the not too distant future so that we fall in line with the rest of the EU where it is not notifiable. However, I have been unable to discover how EFB is handled in the EU and elsewhere. There is plenty of information on AFB, but EFB (a much greater problem in my opinion) seems to be ignored. Can anyone help? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:26:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Hive colour Question: why is it that so many hives (certainly in Europe) are painted pale blue? Is there a reason for painting them this colour - other than a surplus of pale blue paint? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:23:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Removing a feeding tank for the first time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "muses" > Does anyone have any thoughts on to use or not to use a smoker? And why? I am sure that everyone on the list does! I would always have a lit smoker handy in any situation where a non-beekeeper might come within range - and that covers most apiaries when you think about it. It is easier to keep bees under control with a little smoke than to have to try to regain control when something goes wrong. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:12:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Removing a feeding tank for the first time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" > I have a smoker, which seems over kill for a > 30 second job A tip for these quick jobs: use just newspaper a your smoker fuel. Light a ball of crumpled newspaper, put it in the smoker and as soon as it is well alight close the smoker. This will not last very long, but will give enough smoke for a 30 second job. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:34:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Queen Quit Laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Ive read about a queen running out of sperm. Never gave it a lot of thought. >This is NOT the time of year to be queenless. Personally Id check again >very carefully and if still nothing, dispatch her and add a new frame of >eggs so they can whip up a new queen. But again thats a month of no new >eggs. At least the frame will give new workers. If you cannot afford to be queenless than this is NOT the time to hope that the bees will be able to raise a queen and have her sucessfuly mate. >I panicked this eairly spring when I had a non laying queen and dispatched >her for a replacement. I expect the new one to be laying now but cant check >in this horrid weather. If the weather is to bad to open a hive then it will also be to bad for mating flights. If at all possible find a queen breeder that can send out a quality product so you know what is in your hives. Good luck. --- Al Lipscomb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:31:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Removeable Swarm Catching Frame (was- Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch????) In-Reply-To: <002c01c30eb1$c6da4760$7afdfea9@peter> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >---- Original Message ----- >From: "yoonytoons" >I much dislike the mess of rubber-banding the brood and the >whole sticky mess although that is the only way to rescue the brood On BeeSource.Com there are plans for building swarm catching frames. The hinged frame opens like a book and is designed so feral comb can be placed into a conventional hive. Dee Lusby designed the frame. It's basically a split frame that is wired on both sides to hold comb in place. Once filled, the ends of the top bar are wired together and placed into a hive. You can download plans from: http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Smoker Design (was Re: [BEE-L] Removing a feeding tank for the first time.) In-Reply-To: <006d01c30ee3$0c7a1bc0$6ab887d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Peter Edwards wrote: > I would always have a lit smoker handy in any situation where a > non-beekeeper might come within range - and that covers most apiaries when > you think about it. It is easier to keep bees under control with a little > smoke than to have to try to regain control when something goes wrong. > After the earlier discussion about the shortcomings of smoker design, I was wondering: would there be much interest in a smoker that you could keep pre-loaded (but unlit) with whatever smokable material you like, and when needed you could just turn a knob, hit a button, and fifteen seconds later have smoke? And, if this is the sort of thing that people would find useful, how much would you be willing to pay for it? (same as a conventional smoker, 50% more, twice as much, etc.). Also, if there are any other particular features that would make it significantly nicer to use than a conventional smoker, what are they? I haven't built one yet, but I have some ideas on how to proceed, and want one myself. If other people would be interested in such a thing, it will give me more incentive to get to work on it. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: European Foul Brood In-Reply-To: <006f01c30ee3$0ebc6aa0$6ab887d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Apr 2003 at 7:35, Peter Edwards wrote: > here is plenty of information on AFB, but EFB (a much greater > problem in my opinion) seems to be ignored. I'm surprised to hear this. I saw a case of European the other day, and I had to stop and look at it, because I had forgotten what it looked like. It's been several years since I've seen it. We've come to regard susceptibility to EFB as a genetic weakness, and that good breeding can eliminate it. I don't know if there are geographic factors as well. But I regard it as so minor that it's almost out of sight. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Queen Quit Laying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 30 Apr 2003 at 7:34, Al Lipscomb wrote: > >dispatched her for a replacement. I expect the new one to be laying now > >but cant check in this horrid weather. > > > If the weather is to bad to open a hive then it will also be to bad for > mating flights. > > If at all possible find a queen breeder that can send out a quality > product so you know what is in your hives. But the bad weather also makes it less likely (no flow) that an introduced queen will be accepted. If the queen has stopped laying for very long the bees in the hive will be old, and that also reduces the chances of acceptance. If I were to gamble on an introduced queen (and I usually don't; I fix queenless hives with brood instead), I would at least give them a frame of sealed brood next to the queen cage, and feed them, to improve odds of acceptance. Once winter is over, we try to keep some nucs around as backups. A nuc dropped in the middle of a queenless colony or drone layer fixes it quickly and surely. Anyone who keeps bees should have a few nuc boxes, and it's pretty easy in the spring to use some spare brood for a few nucs to keep on hand for those queens that sputter out in the early part of the season. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:05:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Buddy J Subject: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon, I don't know how many wild colonies are in your area, but in south Louisiana, just in my area, I've received 70+ calls in one month to remove bees. Over half of them are in a structure of some kind(walls, hollow trees, floors of trailer homes, etc.) These I just flat out refuse to do. Though I would not like to see any bees destroyed, if I just received 70+ calls in one month and there are others on the list to retrieve/save bees, just think of the size of the wild population in my part of the country. And I know it's on the increase, because I received 35 calls last year in 6 months. I have to draw the line somewhere. I can't rescue all of them. The easier swarms were all given good homes and I feel good about my efforts. However, as for as charging for doing demolition/carpentry work, you should and not feel bad about it. Tell your customers, "The bee retrieval is free; the carpentry work will cost you $XX." This year, I have gone into structures 3 times against my own policy. Why? Because the homeowner called me every other day. They aggravated me into doing it. Then I told them, "If you can get someone to open the wall/floor/soffit for me, I'll be happy to come and get them." All three individuals were in need of some kind. One woman was elderly and single on a fixed income. One gentleman was suffering from the effects of polio and one gentleman got stung 10 times on his neck trying to extricate them. Today, I'm going to retrieve a month old colony from a gentlemen's soffit. Since they all had the carpentry part done, I retrieved all the bees for free. Nothing like freebees!! If you feel that the wild bee colony population in your area is low, I can see how you feel obligated. But don't let anyone use you. They will have to pay someone. The people I attend to would gladly pay me, even for a swarm hanging on a low bush. But I do not charge for bee retrieval, but I would for carpentry work. Got to go! The spring nectar flow of privet, white Dutch clover, wild dogwood and Chinese tallow is almost in full swing!! Drink up ladies! Buddy Gauthier Systems Programmer/Analyst - Beekeeper Hobbyist CAMECO® Industries, Inc. Thibodaux, LA USA Email: GauthierBuddyJ@JohnDeere.com GauthierBees@Charter.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:40:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hive colour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Question: why is it that so many hives (certainly in Europe) > are painted pale blue? In the US the predominant color is white. Dunno why, most common reason is cool in the summer, but that seems a southern US reason. Yanks paint 'em darker blue or green, Mainiacs paint 'em really, really dark blue or green :-) Personally I paint mine whatever color is on sale for cheap, cheap, cheap at the mismatched color counter. I've gotten top grade $24/gallon paint for $2. The bees don't mind booger green hives! Aaron Morris - thinking easter egg hives and raibow supers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:17:01 -0400 Reply-To: bee@digistar.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Mailing list Subject: Re: Hive colour In-Reply-To: <006e01c30ee3$0d9772a0$6ab887d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Peter Edwards wrote: > Question: why is it that so many hives (certainly in Europe) are painted > pale blue? Is there a reason for painting them this colour - other than > a surplus of pale blue paint? Interesting. I painted one of my hives white, the other pale blue as well. I lived in Southwest Missouri until 2000 when I moved to the Boston area. The colors are a little washed out but you can see one of them here: http://boxborough.digistar.us/~jsb/bee/DSC00003.JPG http://boxborough.digistar.us/~jsb/bee/DSC00019.JPG [ Twilight Zone music playing ] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:51:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When called to get bees out of anything that requires removal of any kind of structure I flat out say no thank you. It is always amazing if someone wants you to remove bees and you have to get behind the wall by removing something .. how they expect you to repair or replace anything better than before.... Not sure how much the freebees are at that point. I talked to an exterminator the other day who told me they are by law not to destroy honey bees. And if you are worried about charging... The pest control agent charges a fee just to come out to the house see what you have and if they are honey bees they tell you they can't kill them and charge you the visit fee. Did someone say freebees? OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/BeesRUs.html http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html > If you feel that the wild bee colony population in your area is low, I can > see how you feel obligated. But don't let anyone use you. They will have to > pay someone. The people I attend to would gladly pay me, even for a swarm > hanging on a low bush. But I do not charge for bee retrieval, but I would > for carpentry work. > > Buddy Gauthier > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:08:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I talked to an exterminator the other day who told me they > are by law not to destroy honey bees. Chalk this up to "Great American Myth". I suspect it's something perpetuated ay (not so) Great American Exterminators who are actually not inclined to take on "pests" who fight back. Based on personal experience involving fine neighbors, environmental enforcement officers and Department of Environmental Conservation investigators, a home owner is allowed to exterminate anything they damn well please as long as the "pest" is A) on the home owner's property and B) the "pest" is not on the protected and/or endangered species list. Honey bees nesting in walls/soffits/trees/ANYTHING are fair game if the property owner does not want them there. This property owner right extends to exterminators as the property owner's agent provided A & B do not apply. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave G. said: I'm surprised to hear this. I saw a case of European the other day, and I had to stop and look at it, because I had forgotten what it looked like. It's been several years since I've seen it. I have not had EHB in the yards for many many years but heard of a case being found in the KC area from my partner. Dave said: We've come to regard susceptibility to EFB as a genetic weakness, and that good breeding can eliminate it. The above is what our U.S. researchers say. I am glad Dave Green said the above (instead of me) as I would have said the above a long time ago but did not want to offend my UK friends which are so proud of their breeding program. We are all trying to learn on BEE-L and the only way we can is to be honest . Burning alone did not work in the 1940's in the U.S. to control the large epidemic of AFB. Controlling EFB without antibiotics is futile in my opinion when on the scale talked about both publicly (and privately) in the U.K. Many are using antibiotics illegally in the U.K. I have been told as the alternative was not working. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: Is nectar coming in? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been watching my bees over the last couple of weeks and have seen a lot of bees returning with pollen but also a considerable number without pollen. Can I assume that those that are returning from afar without pollen are transporting nectar? Are the pollen carriers also carrying nectar? Would any bees be carrying water when nectar is available? Fascinated by all of the activity. I'm located in the SW corner of Missouri. (Fruit trees have just finished flowering) Thanks, Mark Hubbard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:43:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive colour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Question: why is it that so many hives (certainly in Europe) > > are painted pale blue? > Karl von Frish investigated bees' sensitivity to colour and recommended hives were painted blue, yellow, black and white. Zinc white absorbs ultraviolet so is bue -green to bees, whils lead white is true white so less striking. European bee houses have entrances close together so colour differentiation was important. Possibly blue became favorite as it was the first on Frish's list. I paint my Long Deep Hives yellow to make them look good or deep green to hide them on exposed sites. Yellow shows up nosema spots quickly. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:37:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: "Controlling EFB without antibiotics is futile in my opinion when on the scale talked about both publicly (and privately) in the U.K. Many are using antibiotics illegally in the U.K. I have been told as the alternative was not working". I never saw EFB in 35 years, then moved to a country town, no problem, then 2 miles further into a 'garden city' where many bees have been kept over the last century. Every year over the last 4 years one or two colonies picks up infection. The Bee Inspector used to burn bees and combs, but recently just the combs plus treating the broodless bees with antibiotic when re-hiving on foundation after sterilising the hive by flaming. No treated hive has shown EFB again - it is always another one. My supposition is that there are infected sites in trees/outbuidings/chimneys from which feral bees drift or are robbed - it is usually a strong colony that becomes infected but can be a swarm I have collected for the Council. Infection is often quite light by the time it shows, say a just few larvae on say 3 combs. It is seasonal of course - if left, it disappears naturally as breeding slows after the peak and there are more nurse bees to throw out diseased larvae. The trouble is that EFB is apparently one of the most infectious organisms known, so if the infected cells remain, each year will be worse until the colony succumbs. This is one reason why I aim to renew all 9 over-wintered brood frames every year, so that any sub-clinical infection is removed - another reason is that the bees expand so fast on new combs and they are also things of great beauty. The Bee Inspectors want next to try just removing all the old combs and hiving on new without using anti-biotics. I believe it will work but only if the beekeeper takes the necessary care. The artificial swarm will need to be starved to get rid of the diseased honey in the bees' stomachs, best by confining the swarm in a cardboard box until bees start to drop off the cluster - then burning the empty box. The problem is one of scale and degree of care - the procedure takes a lot of time and scrupulous attention to hygiene - and Bee Inspectors carry a tub of water and scrub hive tool, gloves and smoker between opening hives. It is practical for hobbyists who have high personal standards of hygiene but would be too time consuming for professional beekeepers. This is where we run headfirst into the clash between approaches to keeping bees. Professional use bees as part of an industrial process and shortcut for efficiency everywhere they can, as we have discussed at depth on this list. Keeping bees that way is frankly boring at the hobby level - it cuts out so much that is interesting. Rumours exist in UK of a professional who is using illegal antibiotics and whose bees and equipment must be widely infected. Once infection gains a hold, there is no answer but wholesale burning as UK found most recently with BSE - a million or so animals slaughtered after infection escaped just one dirty farm. Wherever a professional using antibiotics goes, there will be risk of infection spreading which could result in others resorting to antibiotics until a large proportion of UK colonies are affected. Once amateurs are regularly using antibiotics we are in for over-dosing and under-dosing, with risk of resistance in bees and humans and eventual loss of the antibiotic altogether, which would be unacceptable in UK. The question of breeding resistant bees is interesting and new to me. Presumably these are strains with above average 'hygienic behaviour', which throw out ALL diseased larvae before they are old enough to defecate. Or is there another mechanism, does anyone know? Even if resistant bees were introduced, all infected equipment would still need to be destroyed as it apparently remains infectious for at least 40 years and not all bees will be of new resistant strains (unless there was a government restocking programme, which I cannot believe). So we must do all possible to stop EFB in UK expanding into a crisis. If we lose control, we risk joining the USA, where (if I understand aright from this list) antibiotics are sometimes used by beekeepers for AFB, professionals in general do not trust the standard of hobbyists' honey and sell their own honey largely for blending (which dilutes any accidental contamination). Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Free Bee-Removal like a Free Lunch???? Yoon evinced a deficit of negotiating skills in dealing with a member of the rich retired landed gentry. I will offer appropriate responses to the (excellent) negotiating ploys used by the older gentleman. > An elderly couple asked me the other day to remove... > ... a two-year-old colony, alive and kicking. > I have been charging about $150 "The price is $150, not including any carpentry work required to replace any walls that must be removed. More difficult jobs cost more, but I must examine the situation before I can tell you if your infestation is 'typical' or 'difficult' to remove". > ...man whined that they were on social security > although he and his wife own 230 acres. "Sir, I am sure that you pay good money to have your hayfield limed, sprayed, and bushhogged, and you would also pay good money if this were any OTHER pest infestation. Call some exterminators, and you will find that their prices are much higher than mine. Ask them for references specific to bee colony removals. Would you like my references?" Hold the line. Don't blink first. Remind yourself again that HE called YOU. Say little, let HIM talk. He will talk himself around to your way of thinking. > I told him I would charge $50 Bzzzzt! I'm sorry, Yoon, but you are out of the competition. We do have some lovely parting gifts for you, but you just lost at least $100. You blinked first. > The man then said he would rather spray the bees "Go ahead Sir, but before you do, I must advise you to write down "anaphylactic shock" on a sheet of paper and pin it to your shirt so that the paramedics and/or coroner will know what caused you to be lying on the ground unconscious or dead. At your age, I'd guess that about 10 stings will send you to the emergency room. How far are you from the closest emergency room?" He's BLUFFING! If he thought he could simply spray the bees, why the heck do you think he called you? This guy is clearly smart enough to avoid being nominated, perhaps posthumously, of a Lifetime Achievement Award For Foolishness (LAAFF), so don't let him "play" you! > At this point, I feel I should just call him and do it > for free to save the bees. "Sir, if you disturb the colony or spray pesticides, you will make my job much more difficult, and perhaps render the salvaged colony useless to anyone. If I find unusual conditions indicative of such homeowner attempts to kill bees, and as an expert, I can see the results, my price goes up to $250, and I will be forced to note your actions in my report to the State Apiary Inspector." He has no idea if killing bees is against the law, in fact, it appears that even pest control people and beekeepers are unsure. He also has no idea what the powers of the Apiary Inspector are. When in doubt, up the ante with something like that. You say nothing untrue, you make no threat. But information is leverage, and he is clueless. > I really do not like the attitude shown by people > against the beekeeper. Oh, get real. He was just being "a sharpie", and you fell for it. You've done this before, so you should be used to "you get the bees, why do you charge me?" question. My standard response is "if I simply kill them, another colony may move in next week, or worse yet, you may get a mix of yellowjackets and ants and honey dripping into your living room. Removal of all bees and all comb, and sealing entrances is the only sure solution. I MUST remove the bees, and only a tiny percentage of wild colonies are disease free, and worth anything to me." > Now if you call an exterminator for other insect problems, > they will pay nearly $200 without a word of complaint. Well, there's your price umbrella. $150 is therefore "a bargain" by comparison, and you have no reason to budge. Beekeepers need to play more $100.00 hands of poker if they want to learn the "sales process" for bee removal. jim (Who never blinks, but often winks.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:56:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Hive colour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron: What about the paint you bought at EAS '01??? :-)) Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::