From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:24:01 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NO_OBLIGATION,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD034903F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZe0011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0305B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 235722 Lines: 5270 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:08:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: All this adds up to justification for recommending quality sugar syrup for winter stores when the alternative is a honey of unknown wintering quality or granualated stores. Research has proven the above many times. Allen also said: Nonetheless, good honey -- if it is good honey -- is still a great winter feed. And if not good honey to winter on you will be seeing plenty of spring deadouts and dysentery. How can you tell good from bad when sealed in comb? The hobby beekeeper can always winter on "pure honey" and blame his winter losses on bad honey. It is my opinion that part of the winter feed be syrup to help prevent dysentery from inferior *fall* honey. Why take a chance. We know that winter stores are one cause of winter dysentery. We also know there are other causes for dysentery and all dysentery can not be blamed on winter stores. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package I feel for you! But you have got to deal with the bees or just kill the whole hive. When I was in Africa and had to deal with a particularly difficult hive, I'd wear pants and a long sleave shirt with sweat pants and tops over, and then the beesuit. But you've got to be master. If you choose to got this route, then you need to kill the queen, then I think the easiest thing to do would be to put a frame with a queen cell in. If you want to introduce a new queen, then the procedure is somewhat advanced, and involved. In my experience, an Afican hive doesn't readily take in, say, and Italian queen, but it can be done. The queen cell method should work, though. tvaughan@charter.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package George Nanos said: > ...One was later Africanized & wiped out the other hive. > I can't get into the remaining hive to kill & replace the queen. > Just too aggressive. > How can I get rid of the queen, preserve as many workers/brood/honey, > & repopulate with a package & new queen without destroying the current > brood or poisoning the comb & honey stores? Are you sure that you can't get some help from some type of state official with this? Perhaps National Guard troops with a flame thrower? I don't think that you want the "current brood" or any of the current workers. They will be just as defensive as the current colony for the entire lifespan of bees than are now brood. Someone who wanted to save the woodenware and comb might try a pair of large CO2 fire extinguishers backed up by two or more garden hoses equipped with Ortho sprayer attachments filled with dish soap, since CO2 should freeze bees on comb with a single blast, and a strong mist of soapy water will drop any bee that flies, but I would be a fool to suggest ANYTHING specific given the subject matter. I don't even know if anyone has tried CO2 fire extinguishers on AHB yet. So I'm not suggesting anything less than the flame thrower, in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Get a video camera, film the event, and you can sell tapes to recover the cost of the equipment and combs. If the National Guard demurs, you might want to read up on Russian ad-hoc weaponry, make a Molotov cocktail, and toss it at the colony, but explosives may not be your area of expertise, and you may want to keep all of your fingers. jim (Who feels that napalm should be EPA approved under Section 18 for "treatment" of both AHB and SHB) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:49:34 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: European Foul Brood. A few folks have spoken about EFB, and various approaches to dealing with it. But do any of you experts have a sure-fire method to culture EFB? I've tried and tried. It's difficult, even following the excellent suggestions in "Honey Bee Pests, Diseases, and Predators" from AI Root, and the various USDA publications. My second question should be obvious, in light of my first. Why should I worry so much about something I can't even culture reliably under even "ideal" conditions? I can culture everything else with "by the book" approaches, but M. pluton is a consistent tough one to "grow". Or perhaps I should worry more, and assume that lots of low-level EFB is escaping attention simply because it is so hard to culture and verify? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:58:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package Whilst I have no experience of Africanised bees, we do sometimes get some very nasty bees in this country - usually where yellow and black bees cross. Some of these will meet you 50 yards from the apiary and follow for several hundred yards when you leave. The easiest way to find and remove the queen is to take off the supers and then move the brood box away - perhaps 20 yards - then leave them for ten minutes to calm down. The most agressive bees will now be back with the supers and it is usually very easy to find the queen in the now depleted brood box(es). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:40:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Nanos" Subject: [BEE-L] Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package > How can I get rid of the queen, preserve as many > workers/brood/honey, & repopulate with a package & new queen without > destroying the current brood or poisoning the comb & honey stores? This was a question raised in a study group the answer below was given by Claire Chavasse ( a lurker on this list) Describe in detail how to handle a bad tempered colony and how to requeen it with a Queen of a gentler strain. The beekeeper should be very well protected when entering an apiary where there are bad tempered bees. The colony or colonies that are bad tempered should be left to last to be manipulated, as their bad temper can spread to the better tempered colonies. I have used the following method of requeening a bad tempered colony very successfully. It has the added advantage that you do not have to find, and remove the queen first. It is very common for obvious reasons, that Queens leading bad tempered colonies are unmarked, unclipped and therefore difficult to find. Requirements: . A strong Queenright 5 frame nucleus. . Floorboard . A brood chamber. . Queen excluder . Additional brood chamber or super . Nuc. box to hold extra frames . Sheet of newspaper. Method: . A few days before carrying out the requeening, place the nucleus beside the bad tempered colony, (B.T.C. from now on) so that the bees may orientate themselves to their new position. . Remove the supers if present and leave to one side on top of the roof. . Remove the B.T.C. to one side. . On the original site, place the spare floorboard with the Queen excluder on top, then the additional brood chamber or super, then the brood chamber. . Place the 5 frame nuc in the centre of the brood chamber, disturbing the bees as little as possible. . Open the B.T.C. and removing the frames in order, shake the bees off them in front of the brood chamber on the original site, the outer frames will probably be superfluous, so place them in the nuc. box. . As you move in towards the brood nest continue to shake the bees off the frames, making certain that all the foragers and the Queen have been removed before placing the frame in the brood chamber on either side of the 5 frame nuc. If I were to repeat this operation again I would not be so diligent about removing the nurse bees. I lost too many when I did it the last time. . Make sure all the brood has been saved, and placed in the new brood chamber. . Place a piece of newspaper under the Queen excluder before replacing the supers, to delay the foragers in the supers returning to the brood chamber too quickly. . After 48hrs, remove the Queen excluder over the floor board and also the additional brood chamber/super Why does it work? . The shaken bees are demoralised and disorientated having had to struggle back through the Queen excluder, up through the empty brood chamber/super before they get back to the heart of the colony. There they find an established Queen in residence with her strong nucleus providing a focus for the colony. The fight will have gone out of the returning bees. . The bad tempered Queen can not get through the queen excluder and so perishes. The space provided by the empty brood chamber/super means that the pheromones from the bad tempered Queen can not influence the bees in the main brood chamber. Additional points. . On the one occasion that I used this requeening method, I noticed an immediate improvement in the temper of the whole colony. This means that it was the pheromones from the bad tempered Queen that were influencing the temperament of the colony. On other occasions when I have requeened a bad tempered colony, I have had to wait until the progeny of the new Queen have emerged before I noticed any difference; thus it was a genetic influence causing the bad temper Ruary Rudd :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:19:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Time for artificial swarming has arrived - so the two halves of a colony can be treated efficiently for Varooa when broodless. Does anyone know how to buy oxalic in UK? Is there a trade name at say builders' merchants? MAFF/ DEFRA pamplet 'Managing Varooa' states: '3.2-4.2% acid solution in 60% sucrose trickled over combs of bees; 2.5ml per brood comb'. Can anyone unpack the meaning? How do u make a 60% sucrose solution starting with a packet of dry sugar. How do u add the right amount of acid for say 3.5% acid solution? Help from the scientifically literate would be appreciated. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:45:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: > This probably explains why both hives also showed classic starvation > symptoms, but were right next to unopened honey. I'm assuming that the bees > can't process the crystallized honey without water, which would be in short > supply in January in Vermont. Could be that but could also be weak colony, brooding up early and unable to get to stores because of cold, even tracheal mites. As noted in other posts, it is not always the honey. When I overwintered on fall honey I lost about 25%-50% of my colonies, but that means 50-75% survived on the same stores. There are a lot of factors that lead to winter kills. As far as winter feed, the best to worse are sucrose (cane sugar dissolved in warm, not boiling, water), HFCS and honey. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:05:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I had 2 hives of Italians. One was later Africanized & wiped out the > other hive. This is an interesting question. Some more details -- as many as you can offer -- would be useful. I'd be curious to know where exactly you live, where the hives(s) are located in relation to nearby homes, etc., and how and when the one hive 'wiped out' the other. The details of the condition of the surviving hive and the 'wiped out' hive would help too. > How can I get rid of the queen, > preserve as many workers/brood/honey, & repopulate with a package & > new queen without destroying the current brood or poisoning the comb > & honey stores? We've had a few interesting comments and suggestions, but , if these bees are truly Africanized, you may have an unique problem. AHB will oftentimes not accept an EHB queen easily, permanently, or at all. Queen excluders built for EHB may not work for AHB queens. AHB and EHB queens have different pheromone profiles and sometimes different caste behaviour. The details requested might help us to better understand what you are facing and how best to proceed, or where to obtain help. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Installing package bees into nucs indoors and more... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:21:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Time for artificial swarming has arrived - so the two halves of a > colony can be treated efficiently for Varooa when broodless. Curious what this means. I'd have thought that all hives would now be brooding up in the UK, so at least one half would have brood. As for oxalic, there are many comments in the archives and I have collected quite a few links at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/ that will lead you to further pages with further links. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:21:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: What ? The Bees are dying! Comments: To: BIBBA-L , IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com, POLPAL-L@listserv.uoguelph.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all! (I'm really sorry if you received this mail once again, obviously I sent it to more than one discussion lists!) For several years, in many areas of Belgium, beekeepers have become really perplexed, especially those who hive colonies in cultivated regions. Their colonies have been showing strange phenomena, different from those previously observed by experienced individuals. They are different to the symptoms expressed by classic varroa infestation - which have been known during the last twenty years. As well, what ever anti varroa treatment is applied to the colonies, the phenomena are present, and exhibit similar characteristics. Here is a description of the observed symptoms. Abnormal colony decline at the end of the season. After the summer nectar flow, colonies are strong and in a condition to pass winter. Then, often during the last anti varroa treatment, the beekeeper observes that the colony is failing and becoming weaker. In a number of cases, the queen has disappeared. Obviously, colonies in such a condition do not survive the winter. In the great majority of cases, the anti varroa treatment is properly followed and correctly applied. There is a large increase in winter losses, reaching in some cases 80% to 100% mortality in a single apiary. Hives are found to be devoid of bees. Occasionally a hive will contain small clump of bees, surrounding the queen. The hives are full of stores. In springtime, a growing number of colonies find it difficult to develop. They remain in a moribund state over an excessive period before eventually expanding - or are just robbed out. Certain colonies however do start as normal, with the queen actively laying and workers sealing new stores; then there is a sudden colony breakdown. The anti varroa treatment in these reported cases had been done correctly and with success. Many beekeepers record the rapid and frequent supersedure of young queens, occurring sometimes only one month after introduction into a colony. Multiple queen presence is observed - original mother and one or more daughters. Some queens, however young do not start to lay after the winter period, or they suddenly fail, without any queen cells being prepared by the colony. These individuals continue with an apparent air of normality - like a laying queen. Race or strain of bee does not appear to be a factor related to the problems suffered, as breeders of black, brown, carnica, caucasian and "buckfast" bees are all troubled with the same. If you too have met such phenomena, would you please take the time to communicate the fact? Such details indicating local circumstances, crops, symptoms etc. are essential in the hope of creating a data bank of information relating to this increasing and most worrying problem. Please send your information to: Myriam Lefebvre. Jean-Marie Van Dyck Facultés Universitaires N-D de la Paix 61, rue de Bruxelles B-5000-NAMUR (Belgium) Lost 19 colonies on about sixty! Translation "en français", "auf Deutsch", "in het Nederlands" on the web page http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/divbee/imida/beedecline.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" allen wrote: > AHB will > oftentimes not accept an EHB queen easily, permanently, or at all.... That was my shoot from the hip analysis, and I was going to recommend, "Cut your losses, kill the hive and start over." But A) I wasn't sure how the original poster knew his bees were actually Africanized (could just be the hive got hot/nasty) and B) there may be something to be learned by following this problem through to whatever is its end. So then I went to the "move the hive" strategy that others have suggested. I'd lean towards a catcher nuc for the field bees and then search through the depopulated hive to depose the queen. Problem with that strategy is, even the depopulated hive may be too nasty to find the queen (I had one that I had to move twice, and then split the two doubles onto separate bottoms before I finally found and deposed the nasty queen). The other problem is that if the nasty hive is truly Africanized, then the catcher nuc may end up with the same problem (the European queen could be deposed by the AHB and end up nasty). So, the details Allen requested will be quite helpful. I'm still not sure that my shoot from the hip analysis to cut your losses and start over is incorrect. Aaron Morris - thinking nasty bees don't belong in a pleasant bee yard! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:21:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As far as winter feed, the best to worse are sucrose (cane sugar > dissolved in warm, not boiling, water), HFCS and honey. I think that this is a generalization. While often true, I think it is hard to beat good clover (or other white) honey laid into place early by a strong, healthy colony of bees. Sugar is definitely okay, but if the honey is removed late and replaced by sugar, that disruption can lead to "mysterious" colony death later. IMO, late season manipulation of the brood chamber is a very frequent cause of 'unexplainable' colony death in winter. As for HFCS, caged bee studies by Rob Currie have shown that type 55 gives a slightly shorter bee life than sugar. Type 42 is not recommended for wintering AFAIK. We don't ever touch the honey in our broods, and winter on mostly honey, supplemented by as much sugar syrup as the bees will take. We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. Our losses were 100% due to queen failures. We do not do any fall checks, so probably 5% of the hives were not OK going in. Moreover, in any 6 month period, some queens are likely to fail, so I cannot blame feed for *any* loss in our 2,300 hives. Our honey is often granulated, and is often -- like last fall -- canola honey mixed with alfalfa honey. The variety of canola/rape and the flow conditions under which it is gathered determine whether it is 'soft set' or like concrete. Properly managed, bees can often do very nicely on hard stores. Usually, IMO, it is the beekeeper who killed the bees when they die overwinter, not the stores, etc... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:56:51 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Nucs indoors In-Reply-To: <000b01c314e7$f0a82c60$21b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Re: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pkgnucs.htm > These nucs are normally used for outdoor wintering in the lower mainland > of B.C. Climate there is like Washington state. I have put up two pictures of these type of hives used for wintering in BC Canada. Sorry for the quality of Photos. It is two pictures I took while visiting Apimondia in Vancouver 99. We vere visiting a beeyard with wintered bees from Dave Tegart. http://apimo.dk/canada/canada.htm as tumbnails! Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Full French and Dutch translated. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:55:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package >So then I went to the "move the hive" strategy that others have suggested. >I'd lean towards a catcher nuc for the field bees and then search through >the depopulated hive to depose the queen. Another problem with the 'move the hive' strategy is that no one suggesting it ever seems to stipulate, "on a day when the bees are flying freely". Anyone who moves a hive on a day after a cool spell, a period with no flow, or a rainy spell, hoping to lose a lot of the bees, will be surprised to see that, oftentimes, many or most of the bees stay right with the hive. Under such conditions, any that come out due to the bumping will often follow the hive as you move it! If you want to lose a large number of bees, it is important to move the hive late in a day when there is a good flow on and the bees are flying without orienting as they leave. Otherwise, only very mimited success will be achieved. It is also important to place a substitute hive that looks somewhat the same right on the exact spot where the original sat, or those sneaky bees will very often sniff out their old home -- assuming it is not too far away and that there are not many other hives around to fool them -- and return home, defeating the beekeeper once again. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What ? The Bees are dying! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean-Marie Van Dyck wrote: > As well, what ever anti varroa treatment is applied to the colonies, the > phenomena are present, and exhibit similar characteristics. What Varroa treatments are used? I doubt if it is resistance since you say many different treatments are used. Could also be tracheal mites, a mite we tend to overlook. Mimics a lot of other problems. Wanes in the spring and summer but comes back strong in the fall/winter. I doubt if it has anything to do with the Varroa treatment but might be pesticide kill from some sort of late year spraying/dusting. Since it is universal in your area, those are my best guesses. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>As far as winter feed, the best to worse are sucrose (cane sugar >>dissolved in warm, not boiling, water), HFCS and honey. > > I think that this is a generalization. While often true, I think it is > hard to beat good clover (or other white) honey laid into place early by > a strong, healthy colony of bees. My bees, also, overwinter on "summer" or light/white/whatever honey. The findings I posted are from a study by British scientists. > As for HFCS, caged bee studies by Rob Currie have shown that type 55 > gives a slightly shorter bee life than sugar. Type 42 is not > recommended for wintering AFAIK. Which was the finding of the Brits. > We don't ever touch the honey in our broods, and winter on mostly honey, > supplemented by as much sugar syrup as the bees will take. We had 11.5% > winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. My losses run about the same. For several years I did not lose a colony. Did some experimenting with open bottoms and plastic foundation and lost some colonies, more because of that than feed. I am not touting sugar as the way to go, since that is not what I do. I do not feed at all, except candy in the spring. If you are going to feed, use sugar. If you want to feed more cheaply, use HFCS. But if you really want to be cheap and have them come through fine, let them overwinter on light or summer honey. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Todd and all, Many interesting things have been said so far about your original post...and it shows the great value of this list. However, i believe it still remains to be answered and granted it is not obvious as Allen says without seeing, smelling, touching, etc... You stated the followings: >I noticed some splotching on these frames (although not a lot), and began >to wonder if it would be alright to feed these frames to either nucs or >established colonies?< I wonder what you are going to do with these frames and I, for one would really appreciate your kind cooperation by letting the list know...althought with due respect there is certainly no obligation from anyone....selfunderstood. If these frames do not smell fermented (stong vinegar-like smell), I personnally believe they can be reused partially in brood chambers...in order to have it consumed by the bees. The question remains... what will be the outcome?...not easy though >Is there a simple way to check the frames for nosema infection?< Someone suggested microscope...i believe... Have you come to any conclusion? Just curious...to learn more. Best regards, Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec _________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Allen Dick writes: >We don't ever touch the honey in our broods, and winter on mostly honey, supplemented by as much sugar syrup as the bees will take. We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%.< Searching the archives, way back February 9th, 1999...item#026347 Warren Otto from University of Manitoba wrote: >Bees fed canola honey over the winter months here die of starvation.< We havn't heard from Warren for a long while... I wonder if he is still around bees...and would further comment on this statement. I cannot find any reply to his... Anyone comments appreciated. Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec _________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:14:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. What in your opinion is causing a loss of 90%? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:30:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Winter loss last winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Allen Dick wrote: >We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. Congratulations. Obviously something went right. You did not report such a good succes in he past... in your diary or elsewhere...as far as I recall. What have you done diffently? Do you mind sharing some? Tks. Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec _________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ruary & All, The following is the way we were told for a successful European queen introduction by the Texas bee inspection service at the Austin ABF convention. 1. loose the old foragers (as already talked about) 2. Divide the hive into three nucs and use a push in cage on a frame of sealed brood to introduce the European queen. Ruary Additional points. . On the one occasion that I used this requeening method, I noticed an immediate improvement in the temper of the whole colony. This means that it was the pheromones from the bad tempered Queen that were influencing the temperament of the colony. Research does not agree with the above. Temperment of colonies has long been looked at. Many beekeepers thought as above 40-50 years ago that if you kill the queen the hive would instantly settle down as queen pheromones were causing the aggressive problem. In the 50's and 60's I used to hear the above theory from beekeepers and most likely from beekeepers which on occasion killed a nasty queen and it seemed the hive was better mannered. Dr. Kerr isolated the genes responsible for aggressive behavior in bees in the 60's and proved he could take a gentle bee and make the bee aggressive and also take a AHb and make the bee gentle through breeding. My opinion would be that the so called nasty hive was not nasty tempered at all but the beekeeper simply had a bad experience with the hive and so killed the queen. When the beekeeper reutrned on say a nice sunny day instead of a cloudy rainy day the bees were better behaved so the above hypothesis seemed correct as it would seem. Ruary said: on other occasions when I have requeened a bad tempered colony, I have had to wait until the progeny of the new Queen have emerged before I noticed any difference; thus it was a genetic influence causing the bad temper My experience and research goes along with Ruary's above statement. I moved some rather nasty bees last night and this morning and they still have got an attitude even though I pinched the head off their matriarch weeks ago. I never seem to have a problem with aggressive behavior from queens I get from my breeders but do from supercedure queens from a couple of those breeders. Have others on the list seen the same thing? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:10:45 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package allen said: >> AHB will oftentimes not accept an EHB queen easily, >> permanently, or at all.... While this is certainly a correct statement given the sagas told by those attempting to keep their colonies free of AHB, isn't it a moot point in this case? This fellow can be presumed to be a competent beekeeper, and he said: "I can't get into the remaining hive to kill & replace the queen. Just too aggressive." So he can't replace the queen, can he? The workers will continue to go after him every time he tries to open, move, or other wise "work" the colony. While it is another good reason to not attempt to "save" the workers, I think that his first concern will likely be the short-term impact of the workers on his veil, suit, and skin, rather than their long-term impact on the queen. Aaron said: > I wasn't sure how the original poster knew his bees > were actually Africanized (could just be the hive got hot/nasty) Does it matter which it is? I don't see why it would be. If they are so defensive that he cannot work the hive, no further option involving "normal" colony manipulation would be attempted by him. He's tried it, and he (felt he) had to retreat. Even if the bees are nothing more than "overly defensive", he still has the same problem - he needs a stand-off approach where he can kill everything that flies, and a way to "work his way in", killing as he goes. He just wants to avoid losing the comb and woodenware in the process. It is not like he is going to somehow "learn to tolerate" these bees, or somehow change their behavior by pure force of will. They are too defensive for him. They live a few weeks each. The queen is sure to be laying more eggs as we type. Connect the dots. Given the situation, a rational person would be calling Sigourney Weaver in as a consultant! > and B) there may be something to be learned by following this > problem through to whatever is its end. Aside from learning just how many stings it takes to drive a typical beekeeper back indoors, or learning which bee suits/veils/gloves provide what level of protection, or, worse yet, finding out (yet again) that even beekeepers can end up at the doctors getting a quick injection for "too many stings", what would we hope to learn? Given that he is clearly not experienced in dealing with AHB, (or perhaps "highly aggressive bees", "HAB") just how much risk would we like him to expose himself to "in the interest of knowledge"? Get real. If he could "work" the colony in any way, he would have never asked the question. The colony must die. What about the large-size saran-wrap used to wrap pallets of boxes? If it could be wrapped around the hive tightly enough, and there was no screened bottom, could one "shrink wrap" the hive, and let them die of either suffocation or dehydration. Again, one would need hoses to knock fliers down, but one could run up to the back side of the hive, slap the leading edge of the film onto the hive with duct tape, and then dance (run!) around the Maypole in a seasonally appropriate manner, wrapping as you go until you have several layers around all vertical surfaces. Then, one could approach the hive, as no bees will be exiting, and wrap top to bottom, around the outer cover and bottom board. A few days in the sun with no exit should teach them a lesson! :) jim (who wonders if some wood and comb is worth all the risk and trouble, and would like one of those multi-purpose rifles that Sigourney Weaver used in "Aliens" http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/imports/pics/ripley.jpg ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: But if you really want to be cheap and have them come through fine, let them overwinter on light or summer honey. With the price being paid for honey today I do not consider giving the bees nice light honey worth 1.50 a pound (wholesale) to winter on cheap. My partner bought a drum of Clover honey yesterday (1.50 lb.)from a member of the Midwestern Beekeepers which was filling his feeders with the honey to feed his bees to build up for the June honey flow and sold the beekeeper a drum of fructose at around .20 a pound to use instead. Now is the time for BEE-L ers (U.S,) to look through your containers of honey you might have sitting around and sell the surplus. Many beekeepers are looking to buy honey in pails or even gallon containers as they are sold out until the new crop comes in and turning away customers. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:46:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What ? The Bees are dying! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jean-Marie & All, If you too have met such phenomena, would you please take the time to communicate the fact? I have seen every case you talked about through the years but never at one time. My opinion is that you have got at least several problems. Always eliminate the simple *first* such as mites etc. Try new locations to see if pesticides are the problem. As a migratory beekeeper my only and quickest solution to pesticides is to move the bees away from the problem. I relocated two apiaries this season because of pesticides. I do not have a clue as to the pesticide source but I recognize the pesticide kill and some of your observations do resemble pesticide kill. try bees from a different breeder source in case genetics are the problem. If the above does not solve the problem then I will give other recommendations (if asked) which involve such things as changing all comb etc. but the above should keep you busy for awhile. Good luck! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does anyone know how to buy oxalic in UK? Try a wood floor refinisher, or carpenter who works with oak. Oxalic acid is used to bleach stains out of wood (esp. white oak). You could also try a Pharmacy (Chemist, I believe in England?) Or you can buy it in tablet form, from the company that makes The Varrox vaporiser, made by Andermatt Biocontrol AG. www.biocontrol.ch. Good luck, Don Mohegan Lake New York, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:27:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What in your opinion is causing a loss of 90%? Lack of understanding, mistakes and bad beekeeping, most of the time. Bad luck, illness on the part of the beekeeper, unaccessable locations, unusual viruses, spraying, a disasterous honey season leading up to the winter, bad feed, malnutrition, badly applied or badly timed treatments or manipulations, and all the rest of the excuses, the rest of the time. Sorry. I calls 'em the way I sees 'em. And don't think that I never had high losses in my 30+ years. I can be as wrong as anybody. Sometimes wronger. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:59:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some remarks from Eva Crane’s in her book ‘Bees and Beekeeping Science, Practice and World Resources’ “Where winters are mild, various forms of unrefined sugar may be fed, but for cold winters refined sugar, such as white table sugar, must be used. For a similar reason, honeys containing material that cannot be absorbed by the honeybee gut are unsuitable as the sole food for colonies in cold winters–for instance most honeydew honeys, especially if crystalized and heather honey. Combs of such honeys can, however, be left in the hive for winter, provided at least 5-10 kg refined sugar is also fed. There is quite a lot of evidence that colonies wintered entirely on sugar syrup, with no honey, perform less satisfactorily in the next active season than colonies wintered with some honey; this is one reason for not harvesting honey combs from the brood box(es). Rinderer and Baxter (1980) found that bees took HFCS more readily than sucrose syrup at the same (high) concentration, and they suggest that unintentional adulteration of honey might result from feeding with HFCS........In autumn 1969 many beekeepers in England fed colonies with concessionary syrup that had been dyed green. The colonies were in brood boxes only, and next spring empty honey supers were added as usual. The honey stored in some of them was green showing that the bees had moved stores from brood box to honey supers many months after feeding. This also raises the question of inadvertent honey adulteration resulting from feeding bees with sugar, even in autumn.” Rinderer, T.E.; Baxter, J.R. (1980) Honey bee hoarding of high fructose corn syrup and cane sugar syrup. Am. Bee J. 120(12):817-818 Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Winter loss last winter > > We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. > You did not report such a good success in he past... in your diary or >elsewhere...as far as I recall. What have you done diffently? Do you mind sharing some? Well, loss has varied over the years. I think the best we had was about 9% loss. Then we went pollinating, and that is very hard on bees, and the queens. Even then, though, we still stayed under 20%, as I recall. Maybe tose who have been mining my diary can remind me. Also, our estimates vary over time, until I reach a final number. Last year, quite a few colonies fooled me. We wrote them off as weak and included them in losses early on, but they recovered by the time we finished our spring work. Carniolan type colonies mixed in with Italian type can be interesting to manage. In the end they all do about the same for us, but they sure can look different at some times of year and the feed needs vary. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:19:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I can't get into the remaining hive to kill & replace the queen. Just too aggressive." If I had this hive and wanted to do what you would like to do, I might try a combination of the techniques that have already been proposed, but I would include the use of a vacuum. Just a normal vacuum with good suction will do. Nothing demoralizes bees like getting sucked into a vacuum. Use smoke if it helps, and suck them off as they come to the top bars. If you're good, you can even suck them out of the air (like in Ghostbusters). Then suck them off the frames, going frame by frame. If you use one of the kinds with a water basin, put a little (very little) dish soap in the water. It's a lot safer than explosives or flame throwers or some of the other things that have been suggested, but more practical and maybe not as fun (unless you are blessed with a vivid imagination). I understand that there was/is a beekeeper in Dallas who drives around with his bee vacuum in a converted Hearse that has "Bee Busters" painted on the side. He charges for removing the bees and then at the end of the day sells the "packages" to beekeepers so I hear. Layne Westover College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:50:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 'Time for artificial swarming has arrived - so the two halves of a > > colony can be treated efficiently for Varooa when broodless. > Curious what this means.' I'd have thought that all hives would now be > brooding up in the UK, so at least one half would have brood. Yes, most brood nests seem to be at their peak, so the colonies are starting swarm cells. The colonies are artificially swarmed within the long box that takes 21 frames, each 14"x12". The queen plus 2 food frames plus a frame of unsealed brood plus 6 frames of foundation is left at the front , and the rest of the brood frames and food go to the back. A vertical division board goes half way down. 2. The 'swarm' at the front has no sealed brood so can be treated for Varooa strainght away. The lot at the back start raising a new queen but the new brood is not sealed when the old brood has all emerged , 3 weeks after the division. So it is treated then. The Varooa seem to drop within a couple of days when they are all 'phoretic' and dripping oxalic between the frames may work very well. . This method is really just Demareeing but all done on the level , so u don't have to lift any heavy boxes - only single frames. My hive is a deep long hive, so does have supers - but these are hald normal size with 5 frames only, so weigh only 16lbs. Thanks for the links on sources of oxalic. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:28:38 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic acid - how to do it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > MAFF/ DEFRA pamplet 'Managing Varooa' states: '3.2-4.2% acid solution in 60% > sucrose trickled over combs of bees; 2.5ml per brood comb'. Can anyone > unpack the meaning? How do u make a 60% sucrose solution starting with a > packet of dry sugar. How do u add the right amount of acid for say 3.5% > acid solution? I have been working for 3 years with others for a study about varroa treatments with about 250 hives. Oxalic acid tricling has been one part of the study. We have used so called '3,2 %' solution. I used ' ' because the percentage does not come out from the components. Solid oxalic acid has some water in the chystals, and therefore the percentage is less than the calculated from the recipie. By the way does anyone know is this water in the chrystals the reason for the cracking sound that comes when oxalic acid is mixed in liquids ? Take 1 liter of warm water and dissolve to it 1 kg of sugar. Next take 75 g of oxalic acid chrystals, and dissolve it to the liquid. The solution is ready. We use 4 ml for every space between the frames that is completely filled with bees ( langstroth frames). When bees are in 1 box maximun is 40 ml and with 2 boxes 50 ml. Store in a cool place and not for months. Our experience is that the efficacy is more than 90 % when there is no brood. Just 1 dm2 of capped brood can decrease the efficacy to about 70 %. Ari Ari Seppälä Project Manager Finnish Beekeepers' Association komppa-seppala@co.inet.fi www.hunaja.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:07:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com From: "James Fischer" > I don't think that you want the "current brood" or any of the current > workers. They will be just as defensive as the current colony for the > entire lifespan of bees than are now brood. Not always true. I have requeened many defensive colonies and have found a complete change in their temper almost immediately. Last year I had one apiary which was particularly bad and I requeened all ten hives to ensure that I eliminated bad genes. A week later I checked the hives for acceptance of the queens and was able to walk amongst the hives without a single bee taking any notice of me - before requeening I would have been attacked immediately. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:14:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic acid From: "Christine Gray" . > Does anyone know how to buy oxalic in UK? How do u make a 60% sucrose solution Oxalic acid is available from chemists, but you will probably have to order it. I paid £4.95 for 500g in 2001. For methods see: http://www.apis.admin.ch/index_e.htm http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 23:34:21 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Strange uses for urine. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought that this advice sent to a bee list distributed in the French language might be of use!! For the capture of swarms and ensuring that they remain in the hive that they are placed, follow instructions below. 1. Take one hive (or as many as you require). 2. Remove frames. 3. Urinate into the box. 4. Replace frames. 5. Allow to dry. Swarms placed into such a treated hive will not attempt to abscond!! Thanks to Patrice Vernet for the technique, which on following, states that it is efficient. So, any takers on this technique? Comments(esp. from Jim Fischer!) and observations awaited. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Bartlett Subject: Uses for beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ever have a piece of your tooth break off and leave sharp edges? =20 Drives you crazy. Cover it with a piece of beeswax until you can get to = the dentist. Billy Bee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:35:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Dick" > Another problem with the 'move the hive' strategy is that no one suggesting > it ever seems to stipulate, "on a day when the bees are flying freely". > As one of those who suggested it, I must say in my defence that I had thought this so obvious that I did not wish to insult the intelligence of the group by stipulating it! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Strange uses for beeswax. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paraffin wax is much cheaper, and works fine here in Louisiana for plucking ducks. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:03:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: 2003 HAS meeting hello everybody, Just wanted you to know about the 2003 HAS meeting to be held July 10-12. Make your plans to attend! Check out this web site for more info on excellent speakers, registration form, and contact info: www.HeartlandBees.com Regards, Denise Luna Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Bees Kill Llama In-Reply-To: <002c01c3159b$2d41b160$b791bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is bad news. --Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 21:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Strange uses for urine. Peter Dillon said: > 3. Urinate into the box... > Comments(esp. from Jim Fischer!) and observations awaited. Ce qui? Quest-ce que cest? Qui je? I'm not touching THAT "beekeeping practice" with an 11-foot pole! But it should be fairly easy to figure out quickly which component of urine is the "active ingredient", in this, ummmm... "application", if the phenomena is not just a hoax/myth, like the old "banging pans" to bring down a swarm technique or the 100,000 other bit of foolishness associated with beekeeping (like the one that came up this week about an entire colony suddenly becoming less aggressive today just because you re-queened yesterday! What a hoot!) If I recall my biochem correctly, human urine is mostly: a) Uric acid b) various phosphates (mostly magnesium and ammonium) c) Calcium oxalate Now the uric acid ("urea" to doctors) was the root cause of the distinctive ammonia stench of the Paris Metro before they cleaned the place up. The breakdown of urea to ammonia is going to happen, and happen quickly once the urea is exposed to oxygen and bacteria (they do the actual "breakdown" work). So, if the "active ingredient" turns out to be either the ammonia, or one of the compounds that breaks down into the ammonia, that would be an odor I would not want anywhere NEAR even the smallest amount of wax or honey, no matter how good the short-term results might be. jim (A new proverb - "He who urinates in a beehive gets stung where he was never stung before!") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 21:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: What ? The Bees are dying! > Abnormal colony decline at the end of the season... In a word, "Imidacloprid". "Not Wanted" in multiple countries. Often known to use one or more of the following aliases: Admire Condifor Gaucho Impower Premier Premise Provado Marathon Merit (Also known by a wide variety of French curses untranslatable into English and unfit for a mixed crowd) Armed and dangerous. Approach with extreme caution. Starring soon in a major class-action lawsuit at a US courthouse at a yet-to-be disclosed location in the Midwest. But you already KNOW this, since the URL you offered: http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/divbee/imida/beedecline.html ...clearly has "imida" in the URL. So why are you asking us? Are you trying to make sure that nothing else could cause the symptoms you describe? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 08:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: failing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At our local bee gathering last night we discussed this very issue. It turns out, though I dont have any documentation here in front of me that the the long term use of pesticided in the hives are causing infertility in drones. Though I had never thought of this before, the same thing happens in other species. Anyone able to add more to this? I would really like to learn more. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:56:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: failing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Muses said: It turns out, though I dont have any documentation here in front of me that the the long term use of pesticided in the hives are causing infertility in drones. Anyone able to add more to this? I would really like to learn more. Research has shown fluvalinate (Apistan) caused some infertility in drones AND that coumaphos (Checkmite) causes queen rearing problems when hives were treated in spring while trying to raise queen cells. The above are were obvious problems. How many problems from chemicals go unnoticed. In areas in which fluvalinate use is history the bees have shown Apistan to be a excellent choice for the beekeeper as *compared* to being put out of beekeeping in the early days of varroa. Some wax contamination has been found but most has been linked to illegal use rather then Apistan strips. In parts of the U.S. checkmite is now history. The bees in those areas have proven that coumaphos was not the end of beekeeping as predicted by many on BEE-L with little long term problems other than illegal use problems. Many are without a legal chemical control which works in many parts of the U.S. so we will see how things play out. Many are getting into beekeeping to only find in my *opinion* that high prices have returned to around normal pricing (around cost of production) by the time they are ready to sell honey and their hives are infested with varroa with no easy way to solve the varroa problem if they live in an area in which Apistan and checkmite are not effective. The best advice to stay up on the situation in my opinion is to subscribe to either Bee Culture or The American Bee Journal ( or both) and read the excellent articles which will keep you informed on the latest developments in beekeeping as we move through the problems ahead. Unlike BEE-L and other bee lists all information printed in both magazines is verified as correct (as much as is possible and the reason you see a researchers name added to many articles as the researcher has looked over the information ) before publication by Kim Flottum (editor Bee Culture)or Joe Graham (editor Bee Journal). With the internet you have to decide if information received is correct or misinformation as moderators only moderate to provide control and do not censor material and most opinions are allowed. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:47:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: failing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In a post dissing BEE-L for misinformation, Bob writes: > Research has shown fluvalinate (Apistan) caused some > infertility in drones Funny, my recollection was that studies show a very low correlation coefficient between fluvalinate and drone fertility (in other words the hypothesis that Apistan was causing drones to shoot blanks was dismissed). Now admittedly, this is my recollection (I cannot quote what studies I am recollecting) so this post may be the sort of misinformation to which Bob refers. Moral? Know your sources, look before you leap, caveat emptor, or as Andy so well put it, "Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk." Cheers, Aaron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I'm far from an expert, I've successfully requeened SERIOUSLY aggressive colonies somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 times. Were they AHB? Probably - or at least a mix. I like Peter Edwards method of moving the colony so you only have to deal with younger bees. Will have to give it a try in the future. To begin, get suited up to the max with an extra layer of clothing under your suit! Don't do this alone and have your car close by in case you get into trouble. Using smoke and sugar water to calm the bees doesn't help a great deal, but it does help a little. I wouldn't advise doing this to more than one colony in a day. The experience will be very intimidating. Choose your assistant carefully. Here's how we did it. Simply take the brood chamber frames and shake them out onto a piece of plywood in front of the hive - boxes and bottom board too. The queen is usually easy to find as they all march back to the hive. Once the hive has been open for a while and several frames have been shaken, the bees tend to "reduce" their attack. After finding the queen, put the hive back together and wait 3 days before introducing a caged queen. I can hear a lot of you saying this won't work and they will reject the new queen. What can I say, it has worked for me. (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:07:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package Mark writes "I can hear a lot of you saying this won't work and they will reject the new queen. What can I say, it has worked for me." If you wait 10 days and destroy all the queen cells, the take will be even better, but if you have a queen cell from another hive, this will be much easier because you just kill the old queen and put in the frame with a cell, and that's usually that. As an additional note, the bees are still as mean as mountain lion pee afterwards; the new queen soothing syndrome doesn't seem to be cross-racial, and I'm sure Mark has had the same experience. But still, as I said, you have to be master/steward whatever, and if you don't have the technical skills to work the mean hive, what will you do in a real emergency? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:36:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: failing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > In a post dissing BEE-L for misinformation, Bob writes: > >>Research has shown fluvalinate (Apistan) caused some >>infertility in drones > so this post may be the sort of misinformation to which Bob > refers. > Moral? Know your sources, look before you leap, caveat emptor, or as Andy > so well put it, "Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk." I did a little research on this today and infertility can be caused by many different things. All pesticides do not cause infertility. Some do but they are mostly of the hormonal variety which have been bad boys from the start, and most are no longer used. Some of the "inert" ingredients in sprays can cause it. There are websites dedicated to all the things that can cause it, including coffee! With few exceptions, most of the infertility is not permanent but just a decrease for a short time. And it does not mean the insect or person is infertile, but just that sperm counts are down. There were some interesting studies done on Canadian Farmers and infertility (don't ask me why they had to study Canadians) and pesticides were generally not a problem but riding tractors in the hot sun with warm jeans were. So keep your drones off tractors and out of tight jeans and they should be fine. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:30:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark posted yet another way to attempt to requeen the Africanized hive. The discussion may have strayed a bit to requeening a nasty hive, and I am at least partially guilty of the digression. However, I have never to my knowlege worked an Africanized hive. But I have worked a few that made me wonder if AHBs were established in my yards in upstate New York. Suggestions to shake bees or manipulate the hive in any manner would not have worked with the particular hive I have in mind, which was located at my sister's house. The hive was a good quarter mile away from any building/garden/area any human activity whatsoever. The hive was showing signs of getting hot after a late summer superscedure, but given the time of season I chose to let it lie to see how things were the following spring. The hive overwintered and seemed "workable" the following spring, but as the population grew, so did the "heat". It got to the point that whenever I did even the slightest manipulation on the hive the bees were nasty and would remain so for days, harrassing folks around the house/garden/barn which as I said, was a quarter mile away. I made a split from the hive, figuring with a new queen the bees in the split would calm down and with a reduced population in the donor hive it would be easier to depose the nasty queen. I was just barely able to make the split before the bees persuaded me to leave the yard. The split remained nasty for the life of the bees and hatching brood (as Jim pointed out), and to this day the guy who bought the split, forewarned that the donor hive had a nasty attitude, ribs me about the nasty nuc I sold him. About a week later I moved the nasty hive many feet from it's original location, leaving a catcher nuc in its place. Yes Allen, it was on a nice day when the bees were flying and foraging. I moved the hive with my Helvy Hive Carrier (don't ask, check the archives), so the movement was smooth and quick. Smooth though the move was, the bees again persuaded me to leave, and harrassed folks for the next few days up to a quarter mile away. 3 days later I attempted to find the queen in the once-split, once-moved, thusly depopulated hive, but the bees were extremely persuasive that I leave the area, actually escorting me into my truck and coaching me as I drove away. I had been debating simply offing the hive right from the get go, but I did not want to sacrifice the worker population and brood, which was impressive. Thinking, "One more try", I quickly separated the two deeps onto separate bottom boards, splitting the once-split, once-moved hive in half. It was in this manipulation that I finally found the nasty queen, upon which I did a joyful and jubilant victory dance, and successfully requeened both halves. I thought the problem was solved, but both halves retained an attitude sufficient to have me move them to a different yard, even further removed from human activity. Eventually they lost their attitude and produced a single medium each, but neither successfully overwintered at the end of the season. So, from 1 nasty hive I got three splits, eternal damnation from the friend who purchased one nasty split, two medium supers, more stings and stress than any beekeeper should have to endure, and near banishment of hives at my sister's homestead. Obvious folly for a problem which should have been handled with my shoot from the hip advice of two days ago, "Cut your losses, kill the hive and start from scratch." Now, "Kill the hive" is always repugnant to me. If I had it to do over again I'd skip the first split and jump right to the move the hive (on a nice day when bees are flying and foraging, leaving a catcher nuc at the original location) and separate the two deeps to separate bottom boards. I suspect the bees would have at this point driven me off, but I'd have shortened the ordeal by one nasty split, one eternal damnation and over a week's time. And I suspect the results, although shorter and less damning, would have been no better. So the next, next time, I'd follow my own advice and cut my losses, probably in the fall when I first noticed that the supersceded queen was not the kind of queen a beekeeper should tolerate. Aaron Morris - thinking do as I say, not as I do! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:20:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As one of those who suggested it, I must say in my defence that I had > thought this so obvious that I did not wish to insult the > intelligence of the group by stipulating it! Well, when we consider how many times the 'two feet or two miles' myth has been repeated here -- as if it were gospel rather than a simplistic rule designed for the inexperienced and the unobservant -- it seems obvious that you wouldn't be insulting many readers at all. It seems many, if not most beekeepers, including many on this list, lack a basic understanding of normal and obvious bee behaviours. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 21:45:26 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following several conversations with individuals during the last few days - I would be most grateful for any comments relating to the following: After bringing out hives from the in wintering building, it has been correlated that by the use of noted position / 3 dimensional representation, the colonies that either survived, were weak, or just died was not random. It is thought that the distribution system circulating the air may be part of the problems encountered. Ventilation is secured by air being forced by a fan into a elongated plastic tube; it having holes being of the same diameter distributed along its length. Via. these holes air is pushed and results theoretically in air being circulated around the hive bodies. In reality, there appears to be unequal air distribution - holes in the 3 metre section nearest the fan have little volumes of air passing out, whilst those at the far end of the tube release the majority of the air. Those hives in areas of limited air supply have been found to be weak, dead, whilst those in areas of better supply fared well. To confound the problems encountered, hives were found to have signs of damaging humidity levels (mouldy frame bases etc.). It has been suggested that dipped hive floors (timber therefore sealed with impervious material) are not a helping item. I would like to hear of other's experiences on in winter housing of colonies, and how they ensure that there is adequate and equal distribution of air to the colonies. The colonies are in southern Manitoba, Canada. Housed between mid October till late May. The colonies are in single langstroth boxes, fed with HFCS as required before being brought in and are stacked four hives to a pallet, four pallets high. The pallets are aligned in parallel lines approx. 4 metres long and 2 metres apart. The building holds 400+ hives. Thanks for any replies, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 23:43:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package From: "allen dick" >It seems many, if not most beekeepers, including many on this list, lack a basic > understanding of normal and obvious bee behaviours. OK, I will be a bit more pendantic in future! Just a thought that I had today whilst searching for the queen in a mildly defensive colony in a rather cool breeze - if you open and move an AHB colony, would they not 'fly freely' whatever the weather? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Working with Africanized Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris spoke of being chased away from working colonies of very aggressive bees - possibly Africanized Honey Bees. Most of the discussion regarding AHBs thus far has revolved around manipulations during the day. I've heard of beekeepers, mainly in other countries, working their bees almost entirely at night. Does anyone have experience doing this? It sure would come in handy here in HOT West Texas 98 F today. (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:58:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package >Just a thought that I had today whilst searching for the queen in a mildly >defensive colony in a rather cool breeze - if you open and move an AHB >colony, would they not 'fly freely' whatever the weather? Well, that is not the point. For the manipulation to have the desired result, the bees *must* be able to remember the location of their old hive so strongly that they automatically return to the original location. If you have merely disturbed a hive that has been confined by weather and not been foraging strongly, you may cause the bees to fly freely all right, but they will follow you and/or the hive, and may very well *not* return to where the hive stood at the beginning of the exercise, because they will have no memory -- or only a dim memory -- of that spot! allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:59:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ventilation is secured by air being forced by a fan into a elongated > plastic tube. Those hives in areas of limited air supply have been found to be > weak, dead, whilst those in areas of better supply fared well. Is the fan noisy, or does it cause vibrations that the hives would experience? Were the hives stacked, or in a single layer? Was the loss on all levels, the same near the fan? What was the building volume in ft3 per hive? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 23:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic acid - how to do it Comments: To: Ari Seppälä MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo Ari, I have tried the liquid Oxalic Acid also for a few years and had great success with it. There I a total new form of OA treatment on a website from an Oxalic Acid Vaporizer manufacturer. The Acid is in a strip and worked over a period of 5 weeks. I heard from a friend it should be working with a great result. I ordered a few bags, but I’m on a waiting list for a week or so. There is so a big demand they can’t fabricate fast enough the strips. I give you the site just in case you like to try this form also. http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/ You can find the strips next under the Vaporizers. Alfred :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:30:02 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings > Ventilation is secured by air being forced by a fan into a elongated plastic > tube; it having holes being of the same diameter distributed along its length. > Via. these holes air is pushed and results theoretically in air being circulated > around the hive bodies. > In reality, there appears to be unequal air distribution - holes in the 3 metre > section nearest the fan have little volumes of air passing out, whilst those > at the far end of the tube release the majority of the air. Those hives in areas > of limited air supply have been found to be weak, dead, whilst those in areas > of better supply fared well. I don't winter bees inside, but I can help with the basic ventilation problem, as it comes up often in greenhouse designs and industrial venting, and is a classic "practical physics" problem posed to students in exams written by sadistic post-doc instructors. As you found out the hard way, equally-sized holes spaced equally along a tube just do not work. Assuming that the holes you have are both spaced evenly along the tubing and are of equal size, you should get roughly twice the amount or airflow AND twice the velocity from the holes at the "far end" of the main tube that you do from the holes nearest the fan. Twice the airflow and twice the velocity means that only a small fraction of the air was coming out the end nearest the fan. I'm not sure what the people who put up the tube might have been thinking. Even if they were thinking about water and pipes, the majority of the water exits an evenly perforated pipe nearest the source, so evenly-spaced holes would not have been "correct" for that model, either. But lucky for you they did not design it "thinking of water", because such a system would have been "backwards", and might have killed ALL the colonies. If you measure the airflow with thin strips of ribbon taped above each hole, (note that borrowing some of your wife's hair ribbons for this purpose can be fatal, so go raid the Christmas ribbon instead) you can see the problem clearly, and "tune" your system with nothing more than a roll of duct tape. (That's why they call it "duct tape"!) If you use duct tape to cover some of the holes, you can even things out, so that each open hole along the tube will cause equal lengths of ribbon to wave and flap in the same manner and at the same rate. Start by covering every 8th hole on the 1/2 the tube furthest from the fan, then every 4th hole, and so on, like this: x = closed o = open 1) o o o o o o o x o o o o o o o 2) o o o x o o o x o o o x o o o 3) o o x o o x o o x o o x o o x 4) x o x o x o x o x o x o x o x 5) x x o x x o x x o x x o x x o 6) x x x o x x x o x x x o x x x 7) x x x x o x x x x o x x x x o You may need to increase the spacing of the taped holes as you get closer to the fan to get an even airflow from each hole. For example, you may find that the far end needs only every 3rd hole open, while the middle needs to have every other hole open. Play around with it, but recall that the further you are from the fan, the more holes should be covered between open holes. When you are done, and have nicely waving ribbons, you can then do some math, and find out if you really have an "optimal" system. If you measure the size of your duct (the pipe), and then add up the size of each hole, you can find any basic error in the design: Number of open holes = N Area of one hole = S Cross-sectional tube area = A Ratio = X (( N * S ) / A ) = X You want a set up where "X" is between 1.5 and 2.0 Below 1.5, you have "too much pressure" in the tube, since there is simply not enough hole area, and the fan must work too hard, often overheating in the process. Above 2.0, you get "instability", since there is too much opening for the fan, and "waves" of air will result in the tube. In the range of 1.5 to 2.0, you can adjust fan speed and still retain "even" airflow. Anything from 20% of maximum fan velocity to 100% of maximum velocity should be "even". Below 20%, things may get screwy. You may want to also consider the size of each hole along the tube. They should all be the same size, but they should all be 2 inches in diameter or less assuming a tube of at least 6 inches in diameter. Holes 2 inches or less work well on any size duct. Larger holes can resonate, and "make music" like a giant annoying flute. With your luck, they would resonate at about 418 - 440 Hz, and sound to the bees like queen piping, keeping all the bees in a "piping freeze response state" all winter. Not a good thing. Now, what about ventilation for "each hive"? Well, not to worry - the air exits the holes and fans out from each hole at a roughly 22 degree to 24 degree angle from each edge of the hole. If the tube is above the hives, the fan-out should cover enough area to spread the air around. A good test would be to have an assistant pump a pair of smokers at the fan intake, and watch the smoke fill the room. This would be a 1:1 scale "wind tunnel test", if you placed empty woodenware or cardboard boxes to stand in for hives in appropriate positions. If you are way, way off, and have concerns about there being far too few holes that are open, you need to cover ALL the holes, rotate the tube, and cut smaller holes to get closer spacing. Again, I would start with even spacing, and use duct tape to cover every Nth hole, just to avoid all the math that would be required to "design" the correct hole spacing up front. If you want to get REALLY fancy, there are even devices that you can install in the tube just downstream of the fan to "straighten out" the airstream, and stop it from swirling around in a corkscrew as it travels along the pipe. This will increase the volume of air that exits the holes above that of a system without such a gizmo installed. If the tubes are above the hives, you want the holes to be at "4:00" or "8:00", where "12:00" would be a hole facing straight up at the ceiling. Straight down ("6:00") is NOT as good, do the smoke test with the holes in various positions and see. ...and you don't want any tube to be longer than 100 feet. Tubes longer than 100 feet start to slow down the airflow via friction at typical fan speeds, and make life much more difficult. Long buildings need a pair of tubes, each fed from each side. I have not included the math behind most of what I have said, as it is both complex and tedious. Duct tape is easier than doing the math in a case like this, since you already have a fait accompli "system" in place. If things get really confusing, send a detailed dimensioned sketch and an envelope stuffed with unmarked, non-consecutively serial numbered $20 bills, and I'll churn through the math for you. jim (Who has experience in reducing "hot air", and is a charter member of the Society For Not Only The Obedience Of, But The Enjoyment Of The Laws Of Physics) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:51:16 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Alfred, I could not find any mention of strips on the site - only the vaporizer. Best regards Roger white Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:16:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was an article in Gleanings many years ago on wintering bees indoors in Canada. They went through some trial and error until they got it right. They encountered the same kind of problems. It was a very extensive operation with many hives in large buildings. Made me give up any thought of wintering indoors. You have to control humidity and temperature, and not just cold but warm days in the winter where you want to keep the house cold. It is costly to do it right. I tried to do a search for the article but came up blank. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Vital, You said > I wonder what you are going to do with these frames and I, for one would > really appreciate your kind cooperation by letting the list know...althought > with due respect there is certainly no obligation from > anyone....selfunderstood. I haven't yet examined the feces for Nosema, but the stores seem useable; no fermentation yet (still tastes fine), which is good, since I have around 150 pounds of semi-crystallized honey, and probably 10 deep frames full of pollen from deadouts. I placed some of these frames on a weak hive recently, and also gave them the choice of sugar syrup in a division feeder just to see which the bees prefer. The bees voted overwhelmingly for the honey. So far, no problem. Based on what has been discussed, and assuming the fecal matter is free of Nosema (which I think will be the case), I think it should be OK to distribute these stores to nucs. I'll watch them closely, of course, and I'll keep the list posted if I notice any ill effects. Thanks again, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package Peter wrote "Just a thought that I had today whilst searching for the queen in a mildly defensive colony in a rather cool breeze - if you open and move an AHB colony, would they not 'fly freely' whatever the weather?" Once a government inspector came out to see if our bees just south of the Namibian border were still pure scuts, as everyone was and is worried about capensis takeovers. It was in the winter and we opened all the hives to take samples of each. It was freezing cold, and the bees couldn't move. It was about the most pleasurable beekeeping experience that I had in 9 years in Africa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:01:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Howto replace Africanized bees w/ new package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This fellow can be presumed to be a competent beekeeper, > and he said: "I can't get into the remaining hive to kill & > replace the queen. Just too aggressive." > Get real. If he could "work" the colony in any way, he would have > never asked the question. The colony must die... Well, maybe you are right, or maybe he just needs a bit more info. That is a decision only the original writer can make. He asked: " How can I get rid of the queen, preserve as many workers/brood/honey, & repopulate with a package & new queen without destroying the current brood or poisoning the comb & honey stores?". So that is what we are considering. Death of the colony as an option is obvious and final, and fairly simple, so, if the writer was ready to go that way and did not know what to do, I am sure he would have asked us how to kill the bees. He has not -- yet, anyhow. This is the internet, and reading a few words is no substitute for being there. The rest of us can only make assumptions, visualise, and guess. For most of us, this is merely an interesting discussion of the range of possibilities, and a chance to consider the little technical details we all need to know to manage a situation like this. This topic -- handling mean bees -- has been covered in depth in the past here on BEE-L, and the only wrinkle that is new is that the owner thinks the hive may be Africanised. That being the case, it is of interest to us all to reconsider all the possibilities. The most extreme of those possibilities -- and least interesting to real beekeepers -- is the execution of the colony. Execution is a common solution in central Arizona, I was told by some commercial beekeepers when at a meeting there, yet Lusbys and other Tucson beekeepers routinely manage bees that must have at least some AHB and don't seem to have problems with agressiveness. I understand that the bees at the lab in Tucson are AHB, and are manageable. They are in the city, near buildings and the street with people coming and going. AHB is managed routinely in many parts of the world, and AHB behaviour seems to vary widely with locale and other factors, including colony size. Moreover, AHB is actually indistinguishable from EHB in the field by any criterion than behaviour, and it seems to me that -- for many -- if a hive is well-behaved that it is designated EHB, and if it is acting out, it is tagged AHB. This is obviously ridiculous, especially considering that many knowledgeable beekeepers and researchers have reported EHB that are as bad as AHB at its worst, and they or others have also reported AHB that never acts out. Neither AHB nor EHB is a homogeneous population, nor is either entirely consistent in behaviour. So, we have not finished considering remedies that come short of death to the bees. I'll add two more (that are in our collective memory bank -- the archives) : 1.) A spoonful of ammonium nitrate in the smoker 2.) Moving the hive to a new location to see if the temperament improves. There are more... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:03:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo Roger The name from the strips is Oxamite and you can find the strips on the site with the Vaporizers. http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/ it’s on the bottom from the same page after the Vaporizer with the number JB700. I found it on the site from the company in the US also. http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln I send a message to the manufacturer and the answer was, I can also order a single bag but I have to ad 2 Euro for shipping to Europe. I personally can’t order from US because of the distributor here in Germany and I can order only 4 bags and up from him, it’s OK I need more than 40 strips anyway. The good thing is, you can let the strips in the colonies for a few weeks and it’s killing all hatching mites during this time. And the mites can’t get resistant against the different acid ingredients. Alfred :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:27:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? Todd writes: >I placed some of these frames on a weak hive recently, and also gave them the choice of sugar syrup in a division feeder just to see which the bees prefer. The bees voted overwhelmingly for the honey. How can that be? Studies have shown that bees prefer sugar to honey. Was it Mark Twain who said something to the effect that there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics? ....And of course there are studies, too. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:28:45 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all who have replied regarding indoor wintering: Many thanks, and I will be coming back with a few comments of my own. I must rectify a mistake that slipped into the original mail: The hives come out again as soon as possible - early to mid April, not in May as stated! - sorry for the mistake. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:31:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How can that be? Studies have shown that bees prefer sugar to honey. > Was it Mark Twain who said something to the effect that there are > lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics? ....And > of course there are studies, too. Even though you have your name backwards, you do have a very good point, and that will be the basis of today's sermon. --- begin sermon --- I think we all marvel at times that whenever a new study of some popular topic comes out, and everyone (particularly the press) immediately drops longstanding notions and adjusts to conform with the new data, oftentimes without even reading the study critically. This is particularly obvious when the topic is human nutrition. Fads come and fads go, all justified by studies, or even by just one new study. Many phenomena -- particularly those to do with diverse and widely distributed populations -- are complex, so complex that just one study, in just one place, at just one time, can do little more than add one small piece to a 1,000-piece jigsaw puzzle. How often can we deduce the entirety of such a puzzle by glancing at just one piece in isolation? Seldom, if ever, I'll wager. Thus we can see that studies are just that, valid attempts to isolate and understand a behaviour or other phenomenon at some one place and time, using some specific sample from a large and varied population. Studies are great; being able to remember and cite studies and texts is an important part of anyone's education, but, true understanding goes far beyond any one study or book knowledge. These aids are important aids to reaching understanding, but understanding, if it is even possible, ultimately comes from experience and observation. This is particularly true in beekeeping. Books and studies are great, but bees are the best teachers. --- end sermon --- allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:49:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: Efficient ventilation in indoor wintering buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coming at this topic from a different angle. There is a report from Fairview College, Fairview Alberta in 1995 by Gauvereau, Sigler and Abbott; Assessment of Airborne Molds as a Biological Hazard for Alberta Commercial Beekeepers. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:55:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Charles B. Cromer" Subject: Journal Comments: To: FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am a new beekeeper, and being of the scientific type person, I have taken it upon myself to keep as detailed notes on the progress of my one hive as possible. I was wondering if this is something anyone else here does, and if perhaps the group would like me to post my observations so maybe I can get some feedback, suggestions, and just in general let you guys see the week to week progression of a hobby beekeeper. Charles Panama City FL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:54:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: > Todd writes: > >the choice of sugar syrup in a division feeder just to see which the bees > >prefer. The bees voted overwhelmingly for the honey. > How can that be? Studies have shown that bees prefer sugar to honey. Which studies are these? I know of none nor have I seen any on the BeeL but you might. The only ones I have seen are that in cold winters bees overwinter best with sugar first, hfcs second and honey third as a winter feed. It is all in the gut and the problems therein. The issue was and is winter feed. What is preferred is not what may be best. Take Big Macs and Broccoli. No lawyers around suing the Broccoli Cartel. Bill Truesdell (I'll have fries with that) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:54:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Journal Hey, Charles Don't you think you should get another hive, just in case your queen dies or someting? An extra hive sure comes in handy, especially if you're going to work with it alot. Best Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:54:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Schlafer-Parton Subject: Re: Flabberghasted (and steamed) over carpenter bee article In-Reply-To: <3EB6EBE2.3345.F37050@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dave Green wrote of being flabbergasted and steamed over the carpenter bee article by columnist David Bare of the Winston-Salem Journal. I have 20+ years as a beekeeper, practice organic gardening, put out nesting sites for mason bees and generally try to "tread lightly" on the environment. I do understand the role of native pollinators and try to help educate the public whenever possible to the value of protecting our insect friends. I applaud Dave's effort to set the record straight about the value of carpenter bees and to provide "the other side of the story." I'm afraid, however, that part of Dave's response may seem as biased to the non beekeeping public as Mr. Bare's article was to protectors of the environment. Denying that they can do considerable damage, when left alone, to one's home or other structures is directly contrary to my own experience. Dave wrote: >> >> You say, they do "considerable damage" from repeated >> colonization. PROVE IT! I challenge you to show me any damage >> that is more than superficial and cosmetic, from carpenter bees that >> have been left alone to do their thing. >> I have a very healthy population of carpenter bees that, with no help or provocation from me, are systematically destroying the siding on my house. It is much more than cosmetic. Small structures such as storage sheds or barns can even become so unstable as to the point of collapse after several years. Covering all wood with aluminum, or screen isn't always an option or desirable. Painting can help, but ironically, my problem got worse after the house was stained. Just the opposite of what I would have thought. Dave wrote: >> You have clearly illustrated the crux of the modern environmental >> problem by your article on carpenter bees. The problem is centered >> in an attitude. Why must we impulsively destroy, without attempting >> to understand, that which we fear? Mr. Bare had obviously researched carpenter bees since he knew of their life cycle and the damage they can do. It is a shame he neglected to tell of their redeeming qualities and valuable role they play in the food chain. I don't believe Mr. Bare was advocating destroying all carpenter bees, just protecting his house. I believe we can tell the other side of the story without faulting him for that. Joel Parton Knoxville, Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:07:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Journal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A journal to track one hive is not a good idea. The varieties of experience with one hive would lead to anecdotal conclusions, rather keep multiple to see common patterns and eliminate the extremes. A comparitive observation of hives is important. The one hive in a yard that does not have many flights and departures bringing in pollen especially in the spring is the hive that needs to be examined. You will not see anomalies keeping just one. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: A good USPS experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday (Saturday) I received here in Maine three Queens shipped from California. The bees were shipped by Express Mail, and if everything had gone according to plan I would have picked them up at my local post office Friday morning. However, something in the system didn't work and the bees didn't appear as scheduled. I started getting panicky that her majesties would spend the weekend on a loading dock somewhere. But the people of USPS had other plans. At 5:45 pm Friday my daughter took a call that the queens were at a regional post office a half hour away. I called that PO Saturday morning just after 7 and was told that the driver headed to my PO had somehow missed the package, but that the mistake had been realized and the queens put on a truck headed to a PO 1 town away. I called that PO and was told the driver had been and gone without leaving my bees. I made several phone calls trying to track them down without luck. Then at 8:15am I get a call from my local PO, the Queens had arrived. The driver had taken it on himself (his time and mileage) to get my bees to right place. I picked them up (all alive) at 8:30. I think that driver has a jar of honey coming to him later this summer! Andrew Dewey Southwest Harbor, ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Wiebe Subject: Bumblebee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My daughter in law noticed a drowned bumblebee floating in about an inch of water in the bottom of a wine glass. Somehow a bumblebee had got into their house, landed in the glass, drank too much water and drowned? The question she had, which I could not answer, which I'm send to you, was, what are all those little "mites?" which are either attached to the bee or else swimming in the water next to the floating bug? There must have been 40 or more little brownish mite like critters present, about 4 would equal the size of 1 varoa mite. Location: about half way between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans and about 75 miles north of the U.S. Can. boarder. Dat's up in Canada, "EH"? Any ideas? This Bugs me. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:59:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Winter loss last winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >>> We had 11.5% winter loss last winter, while others lost up to 90%. > >> You did not report such a good success in he past... in your diary or >> elsewhere...as far as I recall. What have you done diffently? Do you >> mind sharing some? I went back and looked at 2001 -- http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2001/diary051701.htm -- and see 22.4% loss as at May 22nd that year. 2001 was an unusual year, in that we split from about 3,000 up to 4,500 late in the previous July, using cells. We had some problems with the cells that led to some attrition in the summer and fall, and of, course some of the probelms were wrapped. Moreover, the later the splits, the lower the likelihood of good subsequent winter success. I attribute our good success, this year and other years, to not disturbing the brood chambers after June, as well as following other good and conservative practices. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:55:09 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having read Allen Dick's diary entry for the 10/05/2003 - my mind instantly returned to several meetings that were held in Paris, France several years ago. The occasions being recalled were meetings that were being held in many places by associations discussing the details of the proposed changes to the European "Honey" Directive and Codex a. There were great differences in opinion on several points - one being how far honey could be filtered by conditioners/packers, whilst still being capable of showing that adulteration had not taken place. Realizing that limiting filtration of honey does not by itself protect against adulteration - it does enhance the ability to indicate geographical origin of source material. Also honey that has not undergone ultra filtration will indicate bodies such as yeast cells in quantities that point to previous quality and condition. Many European producer countries argued strongly for limited filter size - below which table honey should not be subjected. In opposition were packers and conditioners mainly from honey importing countries. I remember stating that if it (enhanced ultra filtration) was allowed to go through, then the door will have been opened for new adulteration technologies to be developed! When it came to shove, the response in London was basically as follows: If Ultra Filtration (and other demands) are not allowed, then the packers/ conditioners would veto the proposals for the new Codex a. This was an excellent position to be in, since it was recognized that the previous set of regulations were far worse overall than the new proposals. Ultra filtration amongst other "difficult to swallow" articles were allowed in a manner that would not serve the producers of honey in Codex a. Go read Allen's diary entry concerning "Ultra filtration and Chinese honey" for yourselves - and ask "How will this affect me?" Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 17:28:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Bumblebee By your location, I'll guess that the Queen bumbles are just now emerging from hibernation and looking for nesting sites. Mites lack wings. Some mite species evolved dispersion strategies such as hitching a ride to more mobile insects. This behavior is referred to as 'phoresy'. Likely the mites attached to the bumble were some sort of phoretic mite that overwintered with the Queen. Phoretic mites use Queen bumbles as public transport. Some live off of bumble nest debris. The hitchhikers are making sure the free lunch continues to be available. Looking through the literature, I found the most common mites on bumbles are of the genera Parasitellus and Kuzinia. (At least in the north eastern part of North America). There are at least 20 or so species from these two genera and others. And, apparently some mites have mites on them. Parasitellus is a relatively large mite (as mites go) and Kuzinia is much smaller. I read that Kuzinia attaches to the bumble using an anal suckerplate. Interesting image that. You may wonder (I sure did) how the mites avoid inbreeding if they always stay with Queen daughters raised by the foundress Queen they hitched with the previous season. If you repeat this scenario many times, it is easy to see how the mite population would soon be inbred to the extreme. There must be a way that mites can jump matrilines. As luck would have it (drat, lost another chance for a grant!) some clever Swiss investigators (Schwarz and Huck, 1997) demonstrated that phoretic mites (Parasitellus sp.) use flowers as 'way stations' or perhaps something like a transfer station when one travels cross country on Via Rail. When the originating Queen forages, they detach and hide in the flower. Then a distantly related Queen forages the same flower some time later. A phoretic mite avoiding inbreeding will attach to this new matriline. Other unrelated mites are gathered along the way or existing (and unrelated) mites on this new matriline supply the diversity in the mite gene pool. Poof! In breeding pressure snapped. Got to love evolution. I actively encourage bumble bee habitat around my place (The Oligarchy of Ontario) and have MANY bumbles. But, I have never seen any attached mites on Queens I've inspected. They may be hiding in the fuzz or body parts. I'll look a bit harder this weekend and see if I can find any. It would be interesting to see if Vorroa mites use this method, too. There is a remarkable amount of genetic variation in the Vorroa jacobsoni species complex on their native host Apis cerana. Do V. jacobsoni use the 'way station' method in Asia? Are Vorroa destructor on honeybees as diverse? V. destructor have preference for drone brood. Are V. destructor mites jumping matrilines when drones mate? Anyone got a handle on genetic diversity in V. destructor? Here's hoping spring is really here and there, too. Best regards, Richard Goetze :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:59:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Storing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone interested, I posted a photo essay at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ showing how we feed queens in shipping boxes when we can't use them all immediately. Direct link: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/feedqueens.htm allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:49:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: curtiscrow@ATT.NET Subject: weak spring hive I have had a few instances this spring of hives in a single area that at first appeared to overwinter well: Plenty of capped brood, lot of bees in late March. Later however, the queens stopped laying, or at least significantly declined in their laying activity, such that some within a month the hive had a negligle cluster, small brood chamber with, in some cases, multiple eggs per cell and some apparently dead (holes in caps) brood. No sign of AFB or EFB - either sticky or stringy residue, or odor. Queen was present, but no doing much of anything. Hives were no aggressive, no signs of queen cells. /C.Crowell New Jersey :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:05:05 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration Peter said: > ...how far honey could be filtered by conditioners/packers, > whilst still being capable of showing that adulteration had > not taken place. > Realizing that limiting filtration of honey does not by itself > protect against adulteration - it does enhance the ability to > indicate geographical origin of source material. Also honey that > has not undergone ultra filtration will indicate bodies such as > yeast cells in quantities that point to previous quality and condition. I have heard no one claim that this new process will increase "shelf life" (delay crystallization) significantly over "standard filtration" currently used by larger packers. If it is true that "ultra filtration" will not prevent crystallization any better than currently common approaches, it seems clear that the sole purpose of such a process is to "improve" the flavor of honey that would be otherwise unpalatable by removing ALL flavors (and Lord only knows what else). What other "value added" could such a process possibly offer? Clearly, the process is hiding something serious. What else would warrant the capital investment in such an expensive process? The burden of proof should not be eased simply to allow a process that creates an end product that cannot be proven to actually be honey. If we were talking about meat rather than honey, the difference would be as clear as "steak" versus "stew beef". Clearly, a butcher will use the best cuts for "steaks", and use the poorest-quality cuts for "stew beef". Is stew beef identical to steak? Clearly not. If equal amounts of each are ground up in a meat grinder, one is "steak tartar", and the other is "ground beef". Not even "ground round" or "ground chuck". Most people can tell the difference with one taste. Many can tell at a glance. But "honey is honey is honey is honey", as those who wish to treat honey and market honey as a fungible commodity would say. Do consumers want flavorless, colorless, sweet syrup? If they do, they already have a wide variety of corn-syrup based products to chose among. But these are not honey. Are the bottlers of pure maple syrup worried that the "low end of the syrup market" is owned by companies that mix corn syrup and chemicals? Not a bit, since a simple taste test is all that is required for a random person to recognize the difference between the "real stuff" and the "fake stuff". Too bad only isolated efforts are made to educate consumers as to what real honey tastes like. If one were to utilize this "ultra filtration", one could, in theory, break it down further after filtration and, create 100% sucrose, and/or 100% fructose, and/or 100% glucose, each in different drums at the end of the all the chemistry. One might then take these "concentrates", and make "reconstituted honey from concentrate", still professing that one is selling "honey". One need look no further than orange juice to see that "from concentrate" has become acceptable to many consumers as "legitimate orange juice". In my view, the moment the water was added, the honey was adulterated. Yes, they add water. They dilute the honey, filter, and then (somehow) remove the water later. How is this NOT deliberate adulteration? I understand the "need" to filter mass-market honey, and I understand the production values inherent in heating honey to make it "run" faster through one's mixing and bottling plant. But the folks who heat and filter and even those who flash-heat and micropore filter honey REFRAIN FROM ADDING ANYTHING. If they added anything that was not honey, they would be guilty of adulterating food if they labeled it as "honey". Both filtering and heating honey can be detected in the final product, but neither process prevents one from verifying that the resulting product is honey. More important, a surprise health inspection of their production facility (common in the US) can verify that there is no stock of non-honey additives, nor is there equipment intended to add anything to the honey. So, the answer is simple. Allow filtering, allow flash-heating. But the limit on filtration is a practical limit that is enforced by one simple rule - "add nothing to honey". I think everyone should be able to get behind enforcement of existing and long-standing prohibitions against the overt and deliberate adulteration of honey, don't you? :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:44:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Stores from hive with dysentery? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Which studies are these? I know of none nor have I seen any on the BeeL Hi Bill: This is from page 206 of (dare I say it?) the book The Hive and the Honey Bee. “Honey bees in cages preferred diets containing sucrose to those containing sugar combinations, honey, invert sugar, or isomerized corn syrup. (Herbert and Shimanuki 1978)” Herbert, E.W. Jr., and H. Shimanuki. (1978) Consumption and brood rearing by caged honey bees fed pollen substitutes fortified with various sugars. J. Apic. Res. 17:27-31. However, after reading Todd’s post and then attending Allen’s sermon, this is probably a moot point anyway. (Incidentally, I have not read the study.) Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Ultra Filtration is exactly what China needs to control the world honey market. ultra filtration has been around for a long time but not considered to be worth the extra cost by U.S. packers/producers. I made the statement years ago that packers would move to ultra filtration the first time there is a problem and proudly display "Ultra filtration" on their label. China now has a problem that only ultra filtration will solve. Ultra filtration can take old dark honey and make the honey water white. If you believe that honey is a healthy food in the state produced and stored in the hive by the bees you need to either produce your own honey or buy honey from a local beekeeper. If you believe honey and Karo syrup are the same and only to flavor pancakes then buy your honey from the large packers store brands as they will buy plenty of ultra filtered China honey to mix and blend with. It is useless to argue that ultra filtered honey is not "pure honey" as only water is added and removed. DI filtered honey removes most of the pollen etc. in honey but the honey is still considered "pure" even if heated above 160F. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:44:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bumblebee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Goetze wondered; "Are Varooa destructor mites jumping matrilines when drones mate? " Jumping only when queens mate would give very little opportunity, especially considering the chances that mites would fail to get a new grip and fall off altogether. Is it not more likely that Varooa spread via drifting of drones? Even in nature, when colonies are some 1 km apart, drones meet up in assemblies and some may follow other drones back to strange hives. Just surmising - I have no experimental evidence. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:43:03 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon and Allen Dick have contributed on this. Here in Australia we are on the lookout for this Ultra Filtrated honey as we are confident we can pick it up through analysis. I was also told when in Canada recently that they can also pick it up through analysis. Our techniques were developed back in the analogue honey days, well not so long ago. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Simoneau_Andr=E9_=28DRMONTR=29_=28L=27Assomption=29?= Subject: Brood inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote: "I attribute our good success, this year and other years, to not disturbing the brood chambers after June, as well as following other good and conservative practices." Allen, do I understand that you do not feel the need to inspect your brood ( for AFB or anything else...)all summer time? If my understanding is wrong,then what is the frequency of your brood inspection during summer time? Docteur André Simoneau Médecin vétérinaire régional Montréal-Laval-Lanaudière MAPAQ-CQIASA Laboratoire de pathologie animale 867, boulevard L'Ange-Gardien L'Assomption, Québec Canada J5W 4M9 Téléphone: 450-589-5745 poste 275 Télécopie: 450-589-0648 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asked: What else would warrant the capital investment in such an expensive process? I keep refering to China as China has the need for ultra filtration. In China the whole honey crop is owned and in many cases "dumped" by the government. Could a humble beekeeper living in a tent in China afford ultra filtration? Of course not! Could the government of China afford many ultra filtration devices. Of course! China has been implicated many times of adultrating their honey with syrup. I said *implicated * but there are documented cases which have been found (as there have been documented cases by U.S. packers to be fair). Ultra filtration makes it very hard to catch adultrators of honey. Jim said: In my view, the moment the water was added, the honey was adulterated. Yes, they add water. They dilute the honey, filter, and then (somehow) remove the water later. How is this NOT deliberate adulteration? I have got the same viewpoint as Jim but after many debates on the subject at various bee meetings I can not see mine and Jim's viewpoint holding up. Water occurs in honey and in the end after the ultra filtration the moisture content is exactly the same. The common practice of filtering with DI earth is allowed so how could you ever stop the using of only water to filter with when the end product has the same amount of water as when the filtration process started. I see the move to ultra filtration to solve a problem with honey and has nothing to do with the safety of the consumer. bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:53:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Brood inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen, do I understand that you do not feel the need to inspect your > brood ( for AFB or anything else...)all summer time? > If my understanding is wrong,then what is the frequency of your brood > inspection during summer time? There is no way we could inspect brood during summer -- or fall. In summer, the hives are 6 to 8 boxes high and full of honey. We are hard-pressed to just pull honey. In fall, we are rushing to feed and wrap, and the hives, now reduced to doubles, are very crowded with bees. We do our beekeeping in the spring, and after that it is up to the bees to do their part. We split and glance at brood, and requeen, then that's it. We super and pull honey in summer, then we pick up any casualties (usually one or two per yard of 40) in the fall, and then again in the spring. We check the deadouts in fall as we pick them up, but lately, there is never any AFB; summer failure lately has always been due to queen problems. If there is active AFB in a hive, it almost always kills the colony over winter, and thus is very easy to find in spring. When we pick up the deadouts in spring, we mark them, then carefully go through them at home, on a day when we have time and full sunlight. If we find anything, we go back and check the yard where the problem was found, in much greater depth. BTW, I had previously said that we never find *any* AFB anymore, but we did find several brood boxes with AFB this spring -- about 4 hives, as I recall, out of 2,300. We learned that one of our men we had trusted to find it was lax. He did the deadouts last year, and I suspect he spread scale from one hive to several. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:38:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration In-Reply-To: <001301c31883$bbea9040$23ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is ultra fitered honey still honey or is it 'something else'? If the Australians are looking and testing for it,this implies that they have decided it is not meeting the legal definition of honey.Is that true?Given the recent widespread illegal circumvention of the anti-dumping ruling , with the collusion of importers in other countries,I am suspicious that this is another scheme to get around the tarrifs. If the packers start using this stuff,I think small beekeepers might want to put on their labels:REAL HONEY(CONTAINS NO ULTRA-FILTERED IMPORTED HONEY)That will sure raise a question or two.Importer/Packers are skating on thin ice with this one,I think. One final comment.If the Chinese would let their currency float instead of pegging it to the dollar,it would go a long way towards restoring balance ,and help eliminate a lot of the hard feelings towards China by producers in other countries that are getting killed by them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Stein Subject: Transporting Nucs Last week I bought a nuc only to find it dead when I opened it up. Since I learned a long time ago that smart pills were expensive, I want to report this experience to you so that you don't have to learn the hard way. I had taken one of those styrofoam nuc boxes to get the nuc. It is totally enclosed except for two approximately 1.5 inch diameter holes in the front. The top hole is screened from the inside. The bottom hole has a circular disc that has 3 different openings--one full open, two with slotted openings that are of two different widths (most likely one smaller to act as a queen excluder). The holes are about 2 inches from the top and bottom. The fellow I bought the nuc from said I didn't have to worry about the bees overheating since the box was well insulated with styrofoam. He was kind enough to put in some extra bees and an empty frame to fill up the positions since the box was five frame and the nuc was four frame. When I got home it was almost dark so I opened the bottom hole to let the bees out if they wanted and a few cam out and looked good. I decided to wait until morning to transfer the bees to a hive. The next morning when I went to the nuc to start the transfer I saw dead bees outside the nuc. This didn't look good and when I opened the nuc what I suspected was true---the bees were dead. My friend that also bought nucs had no such problem. He had brought along a one box hive. A screen was stapled to the front entrance (that had an entrance reducer) and a screen was stapled over the inner cover hole. After installing the nuc a strap was tightened around the hive (minus the outer cover) to hold everything together during transit. These nucs survived. My conclusion is that the styrofoam nuc couldn't support all the bees inside and they suffocated, overheated and died. From now on I will only pick up a nuc in a full 10 frame hive with the front entrance fully open and screened with the top cover removed and the hole in the inner cover screened. I am tempted to make a fully open screened "inner cover" for the top (just a frame and screen) so that the hive can get maximum ventilation during transit. I hope my reporting this experience saves someone from the same experience. Jim Stein -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:24:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs In-Reply-To: <200305121547.h4CFl3aV013361@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 May 2003 at 11:45, Jim Stein wrote: > I had taken one of those styrofoam nuc boxes to get the nuc. It is > totally enclosed except for two approximately 1.5 inch diameter holes in > the front. This spring was the first we had seen the styrofoam boxes, and were concerned about them. Apparently we were right to be concerned. Normally bees transported in wooden boxes are trucked with open entrances, and these entrances are quite large compared to the styrofoam. Plus wood is NOT a very good insulator. (Of course the entire load is netted.) If it is cool, the load is watered once at the start of the trip. If it is hot, the load is watered several times during the trip's course. There are three things to remember here. One is that bees need a lot of air, and they get excited when they don't have it. Two is that the heat we worry about is not the heat of the air, as bees routinely survive temperatures over a hundred in the south. Three is that excited bees create heat. The more heat they create, the more excited they get, and the more excited they get, the more heat they create. It's like a nuclear chain reaction. The styrofoam boxes are too tight for airflow, and the insulation properties work against the bees by holding heat IN. We only trucked a few this year, but the losses mean that no more nucs will be trucked in styrofoam in future years. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: Brood inspection MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Allen, "We split and glance at brood, and requeen, then that's it. " Your above statement is a little confusing to a novice (second year) like me! Today, (for my first time) I split a large hive that did a very good job of surviving this winter. I'm a little anxious and excited to see what my results will be! I gave the split some capped broad, honey and pollen frames, and a frame of larva in various stages of growth. >From what I read, they will make a queen out of the young larva (I hope). "We split and glance at brood, and requeen" At what stage do you do the requeening? Do you requeen the split or the parent hive or both? I would like to keep the genes of this parent hive; it did such a great job of honey production and winter survival. I would not want to requeen with a "store bought" queen if I can help it. Why do you requeen a split and what is the advantage? Is there anyway I could successfully keep the genes of this parent hive without going into grafting or extensive queen rearing? Thanks Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I had taken one of those styrofoam nuc boxes to get the nuc... the styrofoam nuc couldn't support > all the bees inside and they suffocated, overheated and died.... This same scenario is playing out to quite a few buyers/sellers. The styrofoam boxes are great in northern climes, but not well suited for the south, and definitely poorly suited for transporting. The styrofoam is great insulation against the cold, but ventillation is still insufficient for the bees to thermoregulate when things get hot. Ventillation screens are in order in warm/hot conditions when transproting these styrofoam nuc boxes. The first design of the styrofoam boxes I bought had no ventillation holes whatsoever. They were very expensive and next to useless. Bees could be installed in the boxes, but once installed the nuc boxes could not be transported. The ventillation problem was obvious in the old design. Subsequently the boxes were redesigned, with two ventillation holes drilled (one in front, one in back). The front of the boxes now have 2 holes, a lower hole for the bees, and an upper hole for ventillation, plus a third hole in the back. Both ventillation holes are screened. I figured the new design would address the ventillation problems, but apparently not. I had a shipment of 50 nucs sent from South Carolina to upstate New York and experienced similar results. So far 8 of 30 were overheated, with dead bees. And the sad thing here is that it's the strongest nucs that overheat. Jim wrote, "He was kind enough to put in some extra bees and an empty frame to fill up the positions since the box was five frame and the nuc was four frame." Perhaps the extra bees and frame sealed the nuc's fate. Fewer bees and more room may have saved them. Buyers and sellers should both be aware of the ventillation problems with these styrofoam nuc boxes. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:35:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs >Last week I bought a nuc only to find it dead when I opened it up. >Since I learned a long time ago that smart pills were expensive, I want to >report this experience to you so that you don't have to learn the hard >way. Apparently, this new technology was sold without the necessary auxillary equipment for moving -- top screens -- and without instructions. In Alberta, where this type of nuc has been used for over ten years, I have never heard of any problems, other than that they plug up fast if the beginning split is too large, and don't winter if the bees have shut the queen down early for that reason. They are designed for small splits -- one or two frames, not 5 frames of bees and brood. Moisture and heat have not been problems here. The hole is a good enough size for a hive sitting almost anywhere in full sun. The volume is not far off the volume that studies have shown bees to choose when they have a choice, and the entrance hole is close to that chosen size too. The problem comes when the nucs are overfilled and transported without screens. No one here would dream of moving them without screened lids. In fact, even when stored inside, the beekeepers screen them and plug the hole. Interestingly, I posted pictures illustrating this very fact several days before reports started coming in from new users experiencing meltdown. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pkgnucs.htm Even a large, well insulated hive can breathe through a 1" hole without problem, except in extreme heat. See the picture at the bottom of http: //www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ today. These nucs are tight, and when the nuc is overfilled and the bees get disorganised -- as they do when moved on trucks -- their normally well co-ordinated ventilation activities break down. Once panic sets in, heat avalanches, and colony death can follow shortly. Bees are killed -- overheated -- every year in wooden nucs and packages, but people are used to that, so it is not news. These nucs work, and work well, but, as with everything, there is a learning curve. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:09:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Brood inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "We split and glance at brood, and requeen, then that's it. " > Your above statement is a little confusing to a novice (second year) > like me! At what stage do you do the requeening? Do you requeen > the split or the parent hive or both? Well, we do whatever needs doing, and that varies all over the map. Quite a few years back, I put my methods on the web at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring/spring.htm . As I recall, a copy of the original article is also in the BEE-L archives (see tag line), as we have no restrictions on length or content in those days. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Down to 75 hives... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:39:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs In-Reply-To: <200305121735.h4CC6T8P006624@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 May 2003 at 13:35, Allen Dick wrote: > Bees are killed -- overheated -- every year in wooden nucs and packages, > but people are used to that, so it is not news. These nucs work, and work > well, but, as with everything, there is a learning curve. We haven't lost any nucs in wooden boxes in quite a few years. The load that had styrofoam boxes also had nucs in wooden boxes, and of about equal strength. None of them were lost. Our "secret" is copious use of water when it's hot. But that doesn't help with styrofoam. Maybe ice.... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:23:52 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration In-Reply-To: <001301c31883$bbea9040$23ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Bob said: > Ultra filtration makes it very hard to catch adultrators of honey. Not at all! It is a big red flag. They might as well stencil the drums "Funny Honey". Finding that honey merely shows the characteristics of "ultra-filtration" is clear and compelling proof that either: "adulteration, damage, or inferiority has been concealed." [US FFDCA, "Adulteration", Section 402 (b)(3)] or: " a substance has been... mixed.. so as to... make it appear better or of greater value than it is." [US FFDCA, "Adulteration", Section 402 (b)(4)] Either one is clearly adulteration. You see, at least in the USA, evidence of "concealment" alone is enough to get a specific shipment of food seized and returned or destroyed. Read the section on "Adulterated Food" in the US Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. http://www.fda.gov/opacom/laws/fdcact/fdcact4.htm "SEC. 402. [342] A food shall be deemed to be adulterated ...(3) if damage or inferiority has been concealed in any manner; or (4) if any substance has been added thereto or mixed or packed therewith so as to increase its bulk or weight, or reduce its quality or strength, or make it appear better or of greater value than it is." Here is a typical example of what happens when "evidence of concealment" is the only hard evidence that the FDA has when looking at honey. http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia3601.html Yes, they eventually got confirmation from an outside lab that the sugars mix was highly unusual, but they made the decision to reject the honey based solely upon the evidence of "concealment" alone. There have been many similar cases with foods more common than honey where the "evidence of concealment" is the primary or sole evidence available, a classic one being the manipulation of orange juice: Citric and amino acids are added to orange juice to "conceal damage and inferiority" [402(b)(3)] or to "make the food appear to be of greater value" [402(b)4)]. Why would one do this? To cover up the adding of cheap sugars. It matters not that both citric and amino acids are "found in natural orange juice". In fact, the mere evidence that the packer bought a quantity of citric acid is enough evidence. But if the clear and simple language of 402(b)(3) is not enough to convince you that we have a solid footing, we can go further. Ultra-filtration is also clear and compelling evidence of "attempting to enhance the appearance", which is illegal under 402(b)(4). Let's walk through it slowly: "if any substance has been added thereto or mixed or packed therewith so as to increase its bulk or weight, or reduce its quality or strength, or make it appear better or of greater value than it is." So, let's compare the process to the law: a) The water is mixed with the honey. b) The water is later removed. c) The result is honey with a "better" color grade. d) The result is honey with a "better" moisture content. e) Honey with a "better" color grade is worth more. f) Honey with a "better" moisture content is worth more. g) Therefore, the process makes the honey appear "better or of greater value than it is." Note that the law does not say that its ok to add something and then attempt to remove it later in the process. The adding or mixing alone is all that matters. We are aware that the net result of this adding and mixing makes "dark" honey appear to be "water white". That's deception. The names and numbers for color grades vary from country to country, but "light color" honey is worth more than "dark" honey, both at wholesale and retail. Since it is clear that ultra-filtration has no purpose other than to artificially "enhance" the color and "enhance" flavor by removing inferior flavors, it clearly has a wide range of applications that would be unethical. It is easy to detect, due to the startling lack of components that would be found even in honey filtered by flash-heat and micropore filtration. > The common practice of filtering with DI earth is allowed so > how could you ever stop the using of only water to filter > with when the end product has the same amount of water as > when the filtration process started. Filters made from "diatomaceous earth" are simply filters. One runs the honey THROUGH the DI earth, and no DI earth remains in the end-product honey. In the case of the water added to honey, it should be clear to even the casual observer that some of the added water WILL show up in the final end-product. It is statistically impossible to add so much water, and then remove only the added water, some portion of the original water is replaced by the added water in this process. This is complicated, so let me explain. Let's take some honey (which contains H2O), and add lots more H2O. Then, we will remove all but 18.6% of the water. But which water is which? One clearly cannot claim that one somehow removed only the specific water added, leaving the specific water that was there at the start of the process. Therefore, the end-product honey has been adulterated. This may be a highly "technical" view, but anyone who wants to argue the point can quickly be exposed as a person with something to hide. > I see the move to ultra filtration to solve a problem with > honey and has nothing to do with the safety of the consumer. "Safety" may be the biggest stick with which we can beat ultra-filtration about the head and shoulders. Let's assume for a moment that something unfit for human consumption is contaminating a large lot of honey. While it is technically possible to use ultra-filtration to remove the contamination, it is illegal to do so, since one may not "de-contaminate" food once it has been contaminated. But is the mere use of this filtering technology evidence that the honey was contaminated with something nasty? Not directly, but why ELSE would one go to the additional trouble and expense of this newer and more robust filtering? There is also the direct evidence of overt adulteration that is inherent in the process itself. Read the beginning of Section 402 "SEC. 402. [342] A food shall be deemed to be adulterated... (2)(A) if it bears or contains any added poisonous or added deleterious substance..." Is "moisture" and "water" a "deleterious substance"? Most countries have standards for Honey "Grades". (This is not the same thing as "color grade") in the USA, the grades have to do with water content: "US Grade A", "Fancy" 18.6% moisture max "US Grade B", "Choice" 18.6% moisture max "US Grade C", "Standard" 20.0% moisture max "U.S. Grade D", "Substandard" more than 20% moisture So, a) Clearly, water in excess of 20% is a "deleterious substance" in regard to honey. b) Clearly, water in excess of 20% is added to the honey in ultra-filtration. c) Later, attempts are made to conceal the adulteration, by removal of the water. Don't like the above? Think I'm pushing it, and reading too much into the law? Let's see what the law says in 21 CFR 71.22: http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/cfr71-22.html "The Commissioner shall refuse to issue a regulation listing a color additive, if in his judgment the data before him show that such proposed use would promote deception of the consumer or would result in misbranding or adulteration within the meaning of the act." So, is water a "color additive"? Heck yes!!! You add water, you filter, you remove water, and for sure, the color is suddenly "better". (Is this "bleached honey"? What else might you call it?) Does the process that used water as color additive "promote deception of the consumer"? Again, not only yes, but heck yes! They get what looks like "water white" honey, but never was. But let's slog on through the legalese: "The issuance of a regulation for a color additive authorizing its use generally in or on a food, drug, or cosmetic shall not be construed as authorization to use the color additive in a manner that may promote deception or conceal damage or inferiority." So even though water is permitted generally in or on food, the use of water in this manner is not legal, in that it "may promote deception or conceal damage or inferiority." Note that one need not prove that it >>IS<< "promoting deception". One only need observe that it >>MAY<< promote deception. Slogging further: "The use of a color additive to promote deception or conceal damage or inferiority shall be considered as the use of a color additive for which no regulation has issued pursuant to section 721(b) of the act, even though the regulation is effective for other uses." So, no matter what other regulations might say, if it >>MAY<< "promote deception or conceal damage or inferiority", then it is not legal. So, to review: We need not even claim that any specific lot of honey is or was contaminated, substandard, or adulterated. We need not test any further than is required to show that the honey was "ultra-filtered". The ultra-filtration itself is inherently deceptive. We need no new regulations or laws. Existing regulations clearly prohibit this process in multiple ways, and on multiple grounds. So, who is going to explain this "ultra-filtration" to the poor overworked guys who do enforcement and inspection of imports? Anyone know these folks? I don't. Once someone explains the process, the result will be a slam dunk. jim (Who speaks legalese fluently, and loves 4-move checkmates) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said; Once someone explains the process, the result will be a slam dunk. I hope you are right! Instead of trying to slip ultra filtered honey by the FDA I rather suspect a move will be made to get the blessing of the FDA for ultra filtration. The ultra filtration question comes at a excellent time with honey being on a three year watch program by the FDA. With a mass spec machine honey which has been treated with DI filters still contains traceable amounts of DI earth but yet the process has the blessing of the FDA. Water is water and the fact that Jim suggests that the remaining 18.5 % water after ultra filtration may not be the original water will not carry much weight when looked at carefully in my opinion. I most hardily agree with Jim that the reasons for using ultra filtration are to hide problems or improve poor quality honey. bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We haven't lost any nucs in wooden boxes in quite a few years. > The load that had styrofoam boxes also had nucs in wooden boxes, > and of about equal strength. I think the problem here is that people are thinking that these plastic, insulated nucs are equivalent to similarly sized wooden ones. They are not. If they were, I don't know why anyone would spend the extra money. The insulated, tightly closing nucs are are different from their standard wooden cousin in that they are designed to be warmer and tighter, so a beekeeper can do more with less. Understanding that, putting the same amount of bees and brood into them as similar wooden nucs should seem like a bad idea. I remember when I was filling package bees that one of my customers (who was helping me fill packages) kept trying to put three pounds into a two-pounder whenever I wasn't looking. I finally explained to him that a two-pound cage was designed for two pounds of bees and that a three-pound cage was bigger for a very good reason. I explained to him that he was not only cheating me, but that he would wind up with nothing when the bees burned up due to inadequate volume and screen area. He looked shocked, but I had no more problem with him. In this current problem, the supplier's generosity is backfiring. Rather than give up on plastic nucs, I think that the buyers and sellers should rather decide to use fewer bees and brood and/or to use screened lids. If they do continue to pack the nucs with bees, the buyer will need to transfer the bees out early, or they will plug up. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:08:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Tooley wrote >If the > Australians are looking and testing for it,this implies that they have > decided it is not meeting the legal definition of honey.Is that true? I think everyone agrees UF honey does not meet the Codex. It has all the solids taken out including things like ash. So it is easy to detect and being UF does not meet the Codex definition for honey. So it is not "honey" any longer. A bit like oils ain't oils (if you have that ad in the rest of the world). Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:21:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stating straight away - I have no legal expertise, nor hold much ability in conversing with a "weasel mind". Both appear to be requirements when dealing with situations present in the global market. Therefore my comments are the result of reading texts and drawing what to me are clear conclusions. Referring to the E.U. Directive 2001/110/EC There is a distinction for honeys that are "(a) suitable for industrial uses or as an ingredient in other foodstuffs which are then processed and (b) may: — have a foreign taste or odour, or — have begun to ferment or have fermented, or — have been overheated." They are termed "Bakers Honey" This class of honey before use in (a), note above, must be labeled as "Bakers Honey. Then: Annex 1, point 2 (viii) of EU Directive, Filtered honey is defined as: "Honey obtained by removing foreign inorganic or organic matter in such a way as to result in the significant removal of pollen." But: Bakers Honey mentions no restriction on what may happen to it before being included into a food stuff. Hence: It may be dealt with in any manner to render it acceptable, and once included into a product - it may be then labeled as "Honey"! This surely is one manner in which the type of material being prepared by the Chinese industry, if accepted, will make great inroads - displacing traditional materials. In the Revised Codex Standard for Honey (Codex stan 12 - 1981, rev.1 (1987), rev.2 (2001). there is no specific mention of the "Bakers Honey class. Reading the definition of what is a honey and what may be done to it; "Part 1 point 3 "Essential Composition and Quality Factors: 3.2 "Honey shall not be heated or processed to such an extent that its essential composition is changed and/ or its quality is impaired" Adding a certain percentage of water to a honey of what ever quality (in the case being discussed - 30* more) will be IMHO changing its essential composition, and therefore illegal. But at the end of the document that I have obtained from FOA web site, Part 2 states: "[Honey for Industrial Uses or as an Ingredient in other Foods] This part is subject to further consideration." There appears to be disparity between FAO Codex material and such controlling documents, e.g.. as produced by E.U., governing honey quality. Attempts to degrade to the lowest possible legal level appears to be the end game for many organisations in the processing end of the honey market. At a time when the opposite is being continuously pushed at producers by government departments etc. Its overdue to show what standard is really required! One or the other - genuine or false produce - Which is it to be? The market should not be allowed to dictate standards. Clients who want honey should get honey and not be conned with a sticky, sweet manipulated substitute. A continued and enhanced stand against adulteration by what ever means must be clearly imposed towards individuals and organisations that attempt to manipulate the market. This requires quality regulations - clear, straight forward wording in "Plain English (or any other required language)" - and sort out the mess! Yours, who is a little tired of being told about substances harmless to bees but then kill them whilst at the same time having to protect honey from honey that is not honey. Talk about a "pincer movement". Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:36:31 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Concerning your statement:: "REAL HONEY(CONTAINS NO ULTRA-FILTERED IMPORTED HONEY)" It is illogical to state that honey is real honey! Honey is honey and does not require the addition of the "real". Why should I have to state when selling honey that it is "real" or "pure". By definition when I use the term "honey" the above is guaranteed. It is for those products claiming comparison to state that they are not "real" or "pure honey". Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Have any of you had trouble with lizzards hanging around your hives. If you had, how do I get rid of them. I thought of target practice but there are too many. thanks preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:55:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs In-Reply-To: <004601c318c2$e1f4e170$63b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 May 2003 at 14:12, allen dick wrote: > Rather than give up on plastic nucs, I think that the buyers and sellers > should rather decide to use fewer bees and brood and/or to use screened > lids. I think that would be cross purposes for both buyer and seller. When I sell a nuc I want the customer to be able to drop it into a regular brood box and go. We don't want them to have to nurse it along for a couple more weeks. Time is too valuable. They have other problems too. There is no mechanism to attatch lids. Wooden nucs are simply nailed, so no lost covers. I've not seen the screens, so don't know how they would stack on a load. These boxes are extremely bulky and a truckload would contain far fewer than a load of wooden ones. They are not strong, and you don't dare cinch down the straps much, or they will break. The truckers absolutely do not want spills, so they will go around behind you and tighten the straps still more. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:53:50 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration In-Reply-To: <001001c318b5$7521c340$27ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob Harrison wrote: > Water is water and the fact that Jim suggests that the remaining 18.5 % > water after ultra filtration may not be the original water will not carry > much weight when looked at carefully in my opinion. In fact water is not just water. Today isotope ratio analysis is starting to have immense impacts in all facets of food industries. Here in New Zealand it has been successfully used to determine that water was added unlawfully to wine. The added water has a different (and detectable) range of isotopes (can't remember which ones they looked at) to the water that is found in wine from natural (grape sourced) means. The same ratio analysis is likely to show any added water to honey compared with the water that arrives as part of the nectar. A small top up of water from say 16% to 20% may be difficult to detect but if the honey is bulked up substantially and then reduced, as suggested with UF, the remaining added water (and its measureable isotopes) would be greater than the 4% of the above example, thereby increasing the likelihood of detection. Regards Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: lizzards In-Reply-To: <002c01c318da$4bb69560$0223dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All my beeyards have lizards.They are harmless and do no damage even if they grab a few bees.I kinda enjoy watching them sometimes.When you have little kids with you sometime where there are lizards,show them how to make a lizard snare out of a piece of tall grass.It really impresses them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:16:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Ultra Filtration In-Reply-To: <3EC021EF.E0F50227@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon > > It is illogical to state that honey is real honey! > Honey is honey and does not require the addition of the "real". > That is how it should be,but when people are happy to buy cheap imitations of a 'real' product(margarine,imitation maple syrup,phony cheese)it may be good business to point out the REAL product.I think California cheese producers were doing that to differentiate their product from the artificial cheese that must be hurting sales.I bet margarine manufacturers just love it when people call their product butter. ---Mike (who has no margarine,phony cheese,or Aunt Jemima syrup in the house-ever) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:05:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: lizzards In-Reply-To: <002c01c318da$4bb69560$0223dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 May 2003 at 18:00, preacher wrote: > Have any of you had trouble with lizzards hanging around your hives. If > you had, how do I get rid of them. I thought of target practice but there > are too many. thanks preacher I've had anoles, more often called chameleons, in great numbers around my bees in the South. I've never been able to see any real damage from their presence. I suspect that they eat some bees, but also they eat wax moths, roaches and spiders. On balance, I believe they do some good. They are also quite tame and friendly. They are welcome at my place. I've thought of keeping a couple inside, like some folks do with geckos, but have found skeletins of a couple that apparently found their way in and then starved. So I guess there's not enough bugs to sustain them. You did not mention any evidence of damage. Why do you want to kill them? All God's creatures have a purpose. Sometimes they cross our purposes, and we have to do something about it (we do have permission), but we should not do this unthinkingly. We are but stewards (the good book says the earth is the Lord's) and I think we will be held accountable for all the things we mess up without thinking. I'm sure you've seen where the public urge to kill something that is poorly understood is a real problem for bees (and beekeepers). Why not look at them as fellow members of God's covenant (Genesis 9:9-10), and simply leave them alone unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lizards, I concur, don’t seem to bother my bees to such an extent that they call attention to their presence. Annoying, yes, they could be at times. I have at least four, possibly more, around my home apiary and I put up with them. Although I have never seen one eating my bees, I liked to think that they remove dead bees around the entrance with occasional drone-dinner perhaps, the ones that catch themselves in the grass. But I have not seen one eating bees although I observed them carefully to check just that. However, respecting your wish to rid of them, I can share an anecdote. In my rickety bee-shed, behind my home apiary, I noticed a field mouse the other day and to kill it, I ran back home and got one of my several black cats: they are all mousers, one female cat, now with her litter, being particularly good at the task. Though I have never trained her, she seems to know her job whenever I carry her in my arm over to the shed, for she had caught a good number there. This time she listened attentively to the rustle coming from under the pile of fallen leaves and caught a fat lizard, a T-bone stake. Princess Cloy, my girls knighted her, sometimes eats baby snakes, too. That I use porous railroad ties under the bottom boards appears to help lizards harbor around my apiary, for they have established their habitat along the cracks. Sometimes their leaf- crunching sound makes me wonder if I am surrounded by snakes, not that there are that many snakes on my property. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the reply. I have found too many times in the world we live in. Man has decided to add human attributes to bugs and animals. So it blocks their thinking. That is animnism a religion of today. And that is what happens when you lose a brick up stairs:) I will watch again and see just how much damage they are doing. But I have noticed several at a time on the front of the hive waiting and catching them. How many over time that will amount too , who knows. Dave gave me a idea. He said to keep the covenant of gen 9 that came after the flood gen 6. I think I will drown them so I can keep it.:))) thanks for the help Preacher > Lizards, I concur, don't seem to bother my bees to such an extent that > they call attention to their presence. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:14:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Transporting Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I sell a nuc I want the customer to be able to drop it into a > regular brood box and go. We don't want them to have to nurse it > along for a couple more weeks. Time is too valuable. I wonder if we are talking about the same nucs. I also can't imagine why anyone would use the ones I know about just for transport, since they are designed for making small splits early in the year to make increase for the next year, and for wintering, not transport. > They have other problems too. There is no mechanism to attatch > lids. Wooden nucs are simply nailed, so no lost covers. I've not > seen the screens, so don't know how they would stack on a load. The ones we have come with strong lids that nest on them. Screens are made to sit on top the same way, and then crossbeams or special pallets are placed on them and another layer is built. Entire semi-loads are transported from Alberta to BC and back, routinely. Stacking is shown clearly in the photo essay I mentioned previously, and which can be found at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pkgnucs.htm > These boxes are extremely bulky and a truckload would contain far > fewer than a load of wooden ones. That's a fact. They are not intended as shipping boxes. > They are not strong, and you > don't dare cinch down the straps much, or they will break. The > truckers absolutely do not want spills, so they will go around behind > you and tighten the straps still more. The ones we have are strong. The guys around here cinch them down well, but use beams or pallets to distribute the stress. This is a very interesting discussion. Goes to show how a system that works well one place gets all bolluxed up when taken somewhere else. If, indeed, we are talking about the same item.. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:20:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit preacher wrote: >Thanks for the reply. I have found too many times in the world we live in. >Man has decided to add human attributes to bugs and animals. So it blocks >their thinking. > It often does - however the reverse can be said for folks who see other creatures are merely being there for the taking/use. I am always amazed when people want to kill something simply because it is there. More than likely that lizard is killing far more non-bees than bees. >That is animnism a religion of today. And that is what happens when you lose >a brick up stairs:) > >I will watch again and see just how much damage they are doing. > Good luck - lizards do not have a huge caloric need - and will not feed constantly or consistantly. OF course spending some days watching the front of one's hive can be very relaxing - I relish what time I have to do so. > But I have >noticed several at a time on the front of the hive waiting and catching >them. > I have lizards on most of my hives - and while I have ocasionally seen them consume non-bees, I have not noticed them to take any of my gals - not saying it isn't possible, just not a problem. >How many over time that will amount too , who knows. > Likely very little - even if the animals were feeding solely on bees (which would be odd) their metabolic rate is such that they really consume very little by way of foodstuff - one of the upsides to being poikilothermic. >Dave gave me a idea. He said to keep the covenant of gen 9 that came after >the flood gen 6. I think I will drown them so I can keep it.:))) > >thanks for the help >Preacher > > >>Lizards, I concur, don't seem to bother my bees to such an extent that >>they call attention to their presence. >> >> > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:02:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: pheremone baited swarm traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Any of you use swarm traps with pheremone lures to catch swarms? I was curious how you go about do this and how your luck has run. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:31:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lizards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/05/03 05:04:18 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Have any of you had trouble with lizzards hanging around your hives. If you had, how do I get rid of them. >> I once was lucky enough to find a Common Lizard (Lacerta vivipara) on the alighting board of a hive when I had a camera with me. In spite of being 'common' they aren't very and most years I don't see any. The Sand Lizard (Lacerta agilis) is nationally rare (a protected species) and locally common. Chris (Southern UK) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: al boehm Subject: Re: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 12 May 2003 18:00:33 -0500 preacher writes: > Hello, > Have any of you had trouble with lizzards hanging around your hives. > If you Reply Here in the carolinas we have anoles they are like lizards, I have a rule --if the lizards are around then the rattlers and cottenmouths and copperheads are somewhere else ---hooray. Al Boehm Columbus N C :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: lizzards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I do like the idea of not having snakes around my hives. My wife said she would help one day move some of my hives. And one of the biggest snakes came out of the bottom of it, I have seen in years. It was a good thing it wasnt a lizzard:) I dropped the hive of very cross bees. And the snake had just as much trouble as myself. As soon as I slowed down:) If lizzards is a sign no snake are around, then I may sacrifice a few bees. Although the snakes may keep the mice away. O well, the clover has started , Im happy, the bees are happy. Life is grand preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:18:57 -0500 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: pheremone baited swarm traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: > > Any of you use swarm traps with pheremone lures to catch swarms? > Yes, and I've had reasonably good luck with them. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:21:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: A Chance to Promote Your Site on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many BEE-L members have web sites dedicated to bees and honey, but most of us don't know about them. After several days of huge volume on BEE-L, things seem to have slacked off a bit, so maybe this would be a good time for members to let us know: 1.) The URL of their own bee-related site and/or 2.) The URLs of their favourite bee and honey web sites. Please give a short comment about each site, and also please read the BEE-L guidelines first -- especially the rule about quoting previous articles. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:22:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: A Chance to Promote Your Site on BEE-L A hundred hive sideliner's site in process :-) http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/honey.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:14:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Outlaw Subject: Website Promotion (http://www.southernmatters.com/) In-Reply-To: <001501c31a13$5d60ed80$37b85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.southernmatters.com/ Southern Matters primarily showcases, promotes and shares information about low-impact small-scale agriculture and dooryard-food production in the context of present and past Southern traditions and conditions. Southern Matters is under development, having about 60 pages related to cane-syrup production. So far, there is but a single photograph of bees, but in the near future, photos of honey plants in South Georgia and the Florida Panhandle will be posted. Plans somewhat further down the road include a site parallel to the site on cane syrup. Regardless, many interested in bees are interested in syrup production, too. Indeed, most of the recent traffic on the syrupmakers list (http://syrupmakers.net/mailman/listinfo/syrupmakers_syrupmakers.net>) has been about bees. As there may not be another call to promote our individual sites, I hope this post will succeed, and I thank Allen for making this opportunity available. Bill END OF MESSAGE ************************************************************** William H. Outlaw Jr. The Peter H. Homann Professor of Biological Science Department of Biological Science Chieftan Way, BIO Unit 1, Mail Code 4370 Florida State University Tallahassee FL 32306-4370 FAX: 850 644-0481 Voice: 850 644-4020 Home phone: 850 893-7551 Home Page: http://bio.fsu.edu/~outlaw/who.html Ethnobotany (cane mills and more): http://www.southernmatters.com Publicly shared files: < http://bio.fsu.edu/~outlaw/shared > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:28:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Astrid Manske & Dave Moffat Subject: A chance to promote...... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out www.ontariobee.com Dave Moffat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:47:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The Upcoming Renewal Exercise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Aaron mentioned earlier, to avoid sending email to defunct addresses and people who have lost interest, BEE-L requires that everyone confirm their subscription once every year, or be dropped from the list. Anyone who did not confirm properly will not receive BEE-L after the cut-off, coming up shortly. BEE WARNED: Although the instructions were very clear, quite a few people tried to send their confirmation to the list address (and goodness knows where else). Whatever the reason, if you suddenly notice you are not getting BEE-L messages, then visit http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/ and check to make sure you are subscribed or subscribe again. (You can even subscribe at several addresses in several formats, if it pleases you). Currently there are 820 registered subscribers to BEE-L, and every year, after renewal, we lose several hundred. Then the number creeps back up -- and then we do it again. Nonetheless, I think it is a good idea to renew permission to send you email annually. I know it is a hassle, but don't you wish all the commercial companies that have your email from years back would do the same thing? Anyhow. If you are dropped, your renewal attempt probably went astray. If you notice that you are no longer with us, just go to the website and re-subscribe. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: wade Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: A Chance to Promote Your Site on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the following site which features fragrant homemade soaps containing honey and beeswax. -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:28:59 -0500 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: pheremone baited swarm traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: > > Any of you use swarm traps with pheremone lures to catch swarms? My earlier response to this question resulted in a follow up question from someone to my email address, but I deleted it before responding - (you have an interesting email address Kathy). The question had to do with the degree of success using a swarm trap and whether I put brood comb in the trap. As to the degree of success I'm not sure how to answer that except to say if there are swarms in the area, I'm confident I will get one. I do not use brood comb since the swarm trap I use has a shape like a bucket - just can't get a frame of brood in there. If I do not use a pheromone lure I don't have much luck attracting a swarm. With a trap like this it is important to relocate the swarm very shortly after it arrives. Failure to do so will result in an established colony complete with brood & honey - a real mess to remove and not highly successful. I saw a swarm trap in a Brushy Mtn catalog a couple of years ago that used regular frames but I think they have discontinued that style. Too bad because I would expect the use of brood comb to be effective in attracting swarms and there would not be the urgency to relocate the swarm before it gets established since the frames could simply be moved to a regular hive. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:41:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Bumblebee In-Reply-To: <000f01c3185a$74c38600$5390bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000f01c3185a$74c38600$5390bc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >Even in nature, when colonies are some 1 km apart, drones meet up >in assemblies and some may follow other drones back to strange hives. Just >surmising - I have no experimental evidence. I heard of a marked drone being found 100 miles away from its parent colony. I forget the source. From Plymouth (UK) I believe. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:31:47 +0530 Reply-To: "Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta" Organization: Zoology, Jai Narain Vyas University, Jodhpur 342 005, India Subject: Website useful to all Melittologists MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello Everybody, Thanks to the idea of Dr. Allen Dick. I share my two websites with regard to bees: 1. An Updating Bibliography of the Bees of the World at URL: http://Geocities.com/BeesInd . Since 17 December, in total visited 5,500 times by bee workers around the World. The next updated issue of this e-book will be released on 19 June, 2003. All BEE-L members and their friends working with bees should cooperate in this exhaustive effort. Kindly send me list of your publications [published/in press] to be included in this enthusiastic work. It is listed with Google.com/Yahoo.com/webring and hundreds of other search engines. 2. An Annotated Catalogue of the Bee Species of the Indian Region at URL: http://Geocities.com/BeesInd2 . It consists of around 1072 bee species found in a specified area ranging from Turkey in the west, running southward up to Singapore in the east. I intended to release this e-book on 16 May, 2003. Many webpages have been already uploaded and can be visited again free of cost. Around a fortnight I am not receiving proper networking speed therefore many webpages are awaiting uploading. It is a very extensive website consisting of a network of 165 visible files [webpages] with around 2000 hyperlinks. The huge networking of book will provide a good foundation work to all the bee workers of the World. With due permission of Dr. Charles D. Michener (Kansas), I have adopted the taxonomic framework from his pioneer work (2000). At present one can go through the catalogue with around 84 genera known so far from this region. I presume the book will be completely uploaded by 31st of May. I shall welcome any suggestion/comments for the best outputs of these two works on internet. Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta beesind@sancharnet.in :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:23:52 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: A Chance to Promote Your Site on BEE-L What? Sleazy, blatant self-promotion on Bee-L? Well, what with Microsoft FrontPage available at no charge, everyone and their little sister now has a "blog", carelessly treading the fine line between pundit and putz, telling anyone who might stumble upon it more than anyone would want to know about their every idle thought regarding minutiae that would put one's date to sleep faster than a double dose of Rohypol. So, here, just for laughs, is a 100% hand-made website, one created with skilled old-world craftsmanship, using nothing more than the "vi" editor on Unix, and a tongue firmly embedded in cheek. It is designed to even be nice to those limited by dial-up bandwidth, and guaranteed 100% free of tinny MIDI music, shockwave, pop-ups, plug-ins, clashing colors, fuzzy photos, guestbooks, long scrollable pages, ads for the X-10 camera, or suggestions about which browser you should be using. That said, click away with wild abandon: Our 2001 (first) annual report, with photos of the Fischer Alchemy headquarters and staff. http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt/ Our 2002 annual report, a summary of the findings of our Swiss subsidiary, the "Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy" ("I-WHAT?"), in new treatments for bee pests and diseases, including the highly controversial and much-talked about "large-cell" foundation. http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/ And, our "what's new" for this year - after great expense and lots of testing, we now include fingertip pump-sprayers with every bottle. (This may sound easy to do, but 25,000 of the darn things http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/pump_it_up.html Lastly, the sponsor of all the foolishness: http://www.bee-quick.com jim (Who reminds all that, although the number of web pages on the internet continues to increase exponentially, the amount of verified truth in the universe continues to remain fairly constant.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:23:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Baton Rogue Lab. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be in the New Orleans area in a week and a half. I was wondering if one can visit the Baton Rogue Bee Lab and if there is anything worthwhile to see and experience for a hobby beekeeper visitor. Any suggestions will be very welcome ! Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::