From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:25:09 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D984904F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZe8011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0306A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 156839 Lines: 3552 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 21:32:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the course of conversation about other things, I was asked this by a chestnut farmer... "My question for you is this: Do you have any idea if a honeybee might help spread pollen to the female flowers of the chestnuts? I don't know if there is anything of the female flower that would attract a bee to it, though they are usually attached to the base of a catkin themselves. This is just an experiment for this year to see if they will provide any help".... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Day by day reports on three years of commercial beekeeping :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: In fact, Amitraz lost its ability to deal with V.d. shortly after the appearance of fluvalinate resistance. Over several years, Faucon tracked the gradual demise of these two molecules. Amitraz followed practically the same curve of efficiency loss as Fluvalinate. USDA testing in the U.S. came up with the same result. Honey has been put on a three year watch list by the FDA. Illegal use of Amitraz is being checked for. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:13:14 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, If you are referring to Castania sativa (Sweet or Spanish Chestnut) then the following is true (for me and many other beekeepers in France)! The tree flowers here for approx. 2 to 3 weeks, from 2nd. week in June (Central France) It produces vast amounts of primrose yellow pollen, having a slightly "oily" feel to it. During the flowering period, the woodland/ forest area has an over-whelming smell originating from the flowers - typical of the tree. Bees work the source (both pollen and nectar) with great vigour - collecting large quantities of both. This means that plenty of spare space is required in the hive. Flow appears to be checked by cool, damp weather. Honey resulting from this flow is golden yellow when viewed through but when placed in barrels it has a very deep brown colour. Liquid for a month or two, after which it granulates with very coarse grain. Easy to re-liquify. Taste - strong nutty, with slight bitter after taste - most pleasant (IMHO). Pollination by honey bees: As the trees are present in their natural environment (France), dedicated pollination is not required to obtain "seed" crop. But, I would not be surprised if by the placing of hives that there would be an increase in "seed" quality. Here, the honey obtained is considered as a prime type - being harvested as a "Single flower source honey". Beware: Due to its powerful taste and smell, any chestnut honey will dominate if present and extracted with other honeys. Older beekeepers here often mix 3kg. of Chestnut with 300kg. of Sunflower - to "lift" the taste of the latter. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:22:41 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amitraz is not a stable molecule and when used in the manner as indicated (Cardboard strips etc.) will not allow for proper control of V.d. in honey bee colonies. This type of application will result in a chaotic and totally undesirable treatment regime! Yes, the molecule kills V.d. BUT not with the required control that is necessary to validate that a proper treatment has been undertaken. Its use in a non legal manner is a big jump onto a very steep and slippy slope. Regards, Peter. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:12:00 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... Allen said: > Do you have any idea if a honeybee might help > spread pollen to the female flowers of the chestnuts? I am constantly amazed and amused by growers. They will pay serious money to try any random product, and the more outrageous the claims made, the quicker they will buy it and try it. But rent some hives? Before they do anything that "crazy", they want a solved Dirac Equation, Feynman diagrams, and documented proof notarized by a Supreme Court Justice that the bees will increase their yield to the point where they can afford to buy a 1966 Lamborghini Miura. Lots of people say that chestnuts are "wind pollinated", but McGregor's has a section on chestnuts that quotes multiple people saying that bees do pollinate chestnuts. http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/book/chap5/chestnut.html >From my own experience: a) We are blessed with several large chestnuts. These are the edible sort, producing nuts with more spines than a sea urchin. b) When we first bought the place, there were very few nuts. (One could walk barefoot under these trees without fear.) c) We have happened to have a few hives within about 800 yards of the chestnut trees every year. d) We started getting more nuts than we can use, even though the chestnut trees have had no specific "care" of any sort. (I can't recall when this started, but it was after we had dismissed the chestnuts as varieties that were more "decorative" than "productive".) At risk of making an classic error of causality, I'd say that the two events are connected, but I've never looked to see if bees were visiting the chestnuts. I'll make a note to check when the chestnuts bloom, which should be later this month. And its funny that the subject mentions the "chestnet". I thought I was the only one to use this term. What does this fellow use to control the chestnut weevils that get into the nuts? I have to erect "chestnets" (surplus parachutes) under each tree to catch the bulk of the nuts before they hit the ground, but I have yet to come up with a rigging approach that can survive the winds of even a moderate thunderstorm without tangling or ripping out several stakes. They also look silly - several people have asked me if the artist "Christo" was a regular summer house guest. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 10:45:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: amitraz and fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg started this discussion by stating "It was recommended to him by his local inspector who also uses it for his bees. The product is a miticide called Taktic-- generically Amitraz." Bob contributed "Illegal use of Amitraz is being checked for." My understanding, and this comes directly from USDA personnel, is: 1. Amitraz is fully licensed for use for V.D. The license has never been withdrawn (I think only the USDA can do so, but am not certain about this), but the manufacturer has refused to sell the product because of the aforementioned law suit by Florida beekeepers. I further understand that the USDA has informally tried to get the manufacturer to put the product back on the market but they refuse to do so without a 'favorable' settlement of the aforementioned lawsuit. (I have been told the details of what they want, but forget them.) 2. Amitraz and fulvalinate are so closely related that resistance to fluvalinate will result in resistance to amitraz in a very short time. However, the chemicals are not identical so if resistance has not developed rotation of the two products should delay resistance compared to use of only a single chemical. If the above is accurate, then I don't see how "use of amitraz is illegal" and think that statement may be inaccurate. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:02:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you have any idea if a honeybee might help > spread pollen to the female flowers of the chestnuts? Thanks for the answers, folks. I passed them on. Now, how many hives are required per acre of trees. He has four acres, he says. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/dairy/ 8,000 queens siezed at the US/Canada border!? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 12:20:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fwd: Coumaphos reaction with fluvalinate Has anyone answered this question yet? On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:57:14 -0800, deelusbybeekeeper@UP2ME.COM wrote: > ...Question: remember the bad results in mixing fluvalinate with amitraz awhile back? Getting calls now on strange happenings with the new coumaphos: possible reaction? So I checked out some chemical books i just happen to have..... > Question:In my Agricultural Chemicals Book 1 Insecticides, 1992 revision, by W.T. Thomson, page 220 now quoted in reference to using coumaphos "Do not use before or after application of natural or synthetic pyrethrins or compounds used to synergize them." > If fluvalinate is a class 2 synthetic-pyrethroid and many beekeepers are now going to switch to coumaphos, has this warning under coumaphos not to use with pyrethrins been checked out? Does Germany, where coumaphos is used, also use fluvalinate safely or hasn't it been checked out either? > I'd hate to see another amitraz/fluvalinate blowout repeated. > Signed: Dee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:01:42 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Treatment of V.d. by use of the molecule Amitraz is legal - if the method used is one that supplies the molecule in a recognised manner.It used to be available under the name of "Anti Varroa Scherring" in Europe. Using "Taktic" as the source of the molecule is not legal. At least here in Europe, this preparation or formulation is designated for other applications (cattle dip etc.). Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > My understanding, and this comes directly from USDA personnel, is: > > 1. Amitraz is fully licensed for use for V.D. The license has never been > withdrawn (I think only the USDA can do so, but am not certain about this), > but the manufacturer has refused to sell the product because of the > aforementioned law suit by Florida beekeepers. > If the above is accurate, then I don't see how "use of amitraz is illegal" > and think that statement may be inaccurate. Illegal because the license is for Miticure and not for generic Amitraz. If you could get the Miticure strips, you can use them. A farmer can have a licensed pesticide that he sprays on lettuce, but if it drifts to cabbage, for which it may not be licensed, he can be arrested, fined whatever. The cabbage spray may be 10 time more deadly, it does not matter, it is an illegal use. He can have a spray for one crop and granules or powder of the same pesticide and same strength for another, but cannot mix and match, because that is illegal. If you use Amitraz sold for any application other than bees, and use it on bees, it is illegal. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 13:16:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's what the chestnut grower replies... "Thanks...for the feedback. The bees hive I borrowed has been in the orchard for four or five days now and I don't see them visiting the catkins (male flowers) yet. I can't tell where they are flying off to, but there are lots of wild radish and blackberry flowers that they've been familiar with over the past month. I'm still uncertain if the bees will help pollinate the chestnuts and the link to the book source that one of the guys below sent said the bees "do not intentionally visit the pistillate flowers, but may accidentally come in contact with them while visiting the staminate flowers." Maybe just them disturbing the pollen will help the wind spread it around. I've got nothing to lose giving it a try. One professor from Turkey that I met in Italy told me that the bees were not a good idea because they eat pollen. I don't know about that and will give it a try this year to see if I notice any improvement. My chestnut catkins have been releasing pollen for a week or so (I'm earlier than France) and it should continue on for a month or two". allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 13:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . The bees hive I borrowed has been in the orchard for four or five days now and I don't see them visiting the catkins (male flowers) yet. I can't tell where they are flying off to, but there are lots of wild radish and blackberry flowers that they've been familiar with over the past month. We always move bees in after bloom we want to pollinate has started to prevent the above *blackberry* pollination going on. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 18:15:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Albino? Is this what is called a Cordovan? They sure are pretty. I understand it comes up sometimes in various strains of bees. I've posted it on Allen's site. http://honeybeeworld.com/bb/viewtopic.php? p=235&sid=a512ba9ae29eb7edc2e772ed23527952#235 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:19:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 10:45:28 -0400, Lloyd Spear wrote: >2. Amitraz and fulvalinate are so closely related that resistance to >fluvalinate will result in resistance to amitraz in a very short time. >However, the chemicals are not identical so if resistance has not Amitraz: target site is octopamine (a biogenic amine) receptor. Octopamine is a neurotransmitter in insects, but only a neuromodulator in mammals. Fluvalinate: target site is voltage gated sodium channels, important in generating action potentials in the nervous system, in all animals. these are very different target sites, as different as the target site of coumaphos (organophosphate), which is acetocholinesterase. For technical information on varroa mite resistance to fluvalinate and sodium channel mutations, please see a new paper http://cyberbee.msu.edu/huangpub/2002JAR.pdf Zach http://cyberbee.msu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 01:46:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't suppose this mail will be as helpful as my previous one relating to Sweet Chestnuts and pollination! I placed approx. 150 colonies in approx. 1500 hectares of natural Chestnut forest on the edges of the Massif Central of France every year.(2 apiaries about 2 km. apart) Crop of honey when weather was favourable = 20kg+ per colony. Crop of Chestnuts in locality was heavy (but this was not the reason for placing the hives!) - the rest of the forest was not visited to establish "nut" crop. Conclusion to be drawn: No idea on hive requirements to establish minimum pollination, but would suggest that 150 colonies should cover 4 acres!!!!! Making a "wild" comparison with "False Acacia" - there are lots of flowers on one tree, each potentially giving copious nectar supplies. Hence, would it be logical to suggest that 4 acres of trees is equivalent to more than 4 acres of plant material such as Canola etc.? One tree flattened out would cover what surface area? Calculate that and pollinate at Canola pollination rates - see what happens (to the nut quantity/quality and to the bee colony status after its period in the area). Too much honey would suggest too low a density, starvation possibly one that is too high! Let me know how things progress, Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate Zach Huang said: > Fluvalinate: target site is voltage gated sodium channels, important in > generating action potentials in the nervous system, in all animals. > these are very different target sites, as different as the target site of > coumaphos (organophosphate), which is acetocholinesterase. But how does this finding correlate with the "dual-resistance" to BOTH fluvalinate and coumaphos experienced by beekeepers who used coumaphos, and only coumaphos for a few seasons? From what you say, it follows that fluvalinate resistance cannot be "the same as" coumaphos resistance, and neither can be the same as "dual resistance". This seems to imply that there is more than one way to be "fluvalinate resistant". Or am I confused? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 22:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate There are THREE ways bugs can be become resistant: 1). less penetration, letting less to reach the inside, 2). degradation (P450, esterases etc), destroying the chemical before it reaches the target, and 3). target -site alternation (my old post). My post last time was only toward Lloyds original post. If a bug uses 1 or 2, they can be "cross-resistant" to two or more chemicals. However some people consider them to be "tolerant" only unless the bug has #3 as a mechanism. There is no scientific evidence (yet) that the fluvalinate-resistant mites are also coumaphos resistant, aside from anecdotal evidence. Zach On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:55:24 -0400, James Fischer wrote: > But how does this finding correlate with the "dual-resistance" > to BOTH fluvalinate and coumaphos experienced by beekeepers who > used coumaphos, and only coumaphos for a few seasons? > > From what you say, it follows that fluvalinate resistance cannot be > "the same as" coumaphos resistance, and neither can be the same as > "dual resistance". This seems to imply that there is more than one > way to be "fluvalinate resistant". > > Or am I confused? > > > jim > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 01:59:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate Zachary Huang said: > There are THREE ways bugs can be become resistant... Understood, but I was asking about the 2 different 'target sites' for fluvalinate and coumaphos, the mechanisms described by which each can kill mites, and the apparent contradiction that is offered by the specter of "dual-resistant" mites, if this turns out to more than a set of apocryphal tales. > There is no scientific evidence (yet) that the fluvalinate-resistant > mites are also coumaphos resistant, aside from anecdotal evidence. I'm talking about the reports of coumaphos-resistant mites also being (incidentally) fluvalinate resistant as a result of coumaphos treatment alone. Not the other way around. As for "no 'scientific' evidence", I suppose that the problem here is that most reports of this sort will be post-mortem, and both bees and mites are dead before the beekeeper admits that they have a problem, making live "samples" difficult to obtain. Has anyone reporting such "dual resistance" gathered and submitted samples (dead or alive) to anyone/anywhere? Your paper appears to imply that such "dual resistant" mites either do not exist, or are very, very "lucky" mites, progeny of mites exposed to both fluvalinate AND coumaphos, perhaps ineffectually. ...and Amitraz? In the US? The Devil will likely purchase ice skates before US beekeepers can again purchase Amitraz labeled for apiary use! jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:15:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said: >I think that it is dangerous to rely on acetic acid completely. Yes, it > does kill EFB - but if there is dried infective material in the bottom of > the cell then the fumes may not penetrate effectively. Does anyone know of any definitive research on this? < I was quoting Leslie Bailey earlier - when mentioning sterilization by acetic acid he stated that any combs with sealed or dead brood should be destroyed, not sterilized, as the bacteria are buried in infective matter. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:25:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: cross resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Responding to Jim, Zachary (who undoubtedly knows more about this than any 50 of us combined) said: "My post last time was only toward Lloyds original post. If a bug uses 1 or 2, they can be "cross-resistant" to two or more chemicals. However some people consider them to be "tolerant" only unless the bug has #3 as a mechanism." I think my post commented on an understanding I have that when V.D. becomes resistant to fluvalinate it is only a very short step to resistance to amitraz. (If I didn't say that, that is what I meant to say.) What say you, Zachary? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:59:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, At this point in the discussion I must remind all that what makes the control of varroa so very hard is the fact we are trying to kill a very small critter (varroa) on a very small honey bee without doing serious chemical damage to the bee and contaminating comb. If you look at the way our U.S. drug companies get drugs approved the final proof is in the testing. The USDA can use Amatraz to experiment when ever it feels the need AND HAS. In Florida both Fluvalinate & amatraz were tried by the Florida inspection service to kill varroa which were not being controlled by checkmite strips. Those Florida inspectors reported at the ABF convention in K.C.(2003) that both returning to Apistan and use of an Amitraz strip did not provide control. One of the researchers which worked on the abstract Dr. Haung posted was Jeff Pettis and Jeff was one of the USDA people reporting the lack of control by both fluvalinate & amatraz to control satifactory those varroa *proven* by the *Pettis test* to be coumaphos resistant varroa. Zack said: There is no scientific evidence (yet) that fluvalinate resistant mites are also coumaphos resistant. When you add the word (yet) I believe in your mind you would not be shocked to find scientific evidence to prove that the coumaphos resistant varroa now found in Florida and New Jersey are in fact resistant to all three of these chemicals coumaphos, fluvalinate and amatraz. If scientific research says those varroa should have reached the LD 50 and did not then is the problem in the application? As a small orchard owner I realized years ago that timing and method of application was as important as the chemical used. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:30:43 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <001f01c324c6$42708220$21ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said, "I predict when resistance to Apistan happens you will soon find fault with thymol. The still effective Apistan treatment (U.K.) is making the thymol treatment seem more effective in my opinion." Why? We already have Apistan resistance in Cornwall and Devon, (Southernmost England); Apiguard is keeping highly infested hives alive down there by providing a good control of the resistant mite populations. Apiguard was initially developed to combat pyrethroid-resistant varroa in Italy. Apiguard (as well as other thymol-based treatments) have been used widely in Europe for several years with a reasonable degree of success. There is no reported resistance to thymol (as yet) and Vita (Europe) Limited is monitoring this closely. As the mode of action of thymol on mites is completely different to that of pyrethroids there is no obvious reason for the two to be linked. "U.S. tests on Thymol have never produced effiacy in the range claimed by vita Europe" - maybe, but we are talking about Apiguard, not just thymol. I'm not saying that Apiguard doesn't have its limitations, it certainly does, but Apiguard was formulated to improve upon the effect of thymol alone. Our US data doesn't look too bad at all but we do need to complete tests across The States to get a better picture. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:55:01 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Fwd: Coumaphos reaction with fluvalinate Allen Dick said: > Has anyone answered this question yet? >> In my Agricultural Chemicals Book 1 Insecticides, 1992 revision, >> by W.T. Thomson, page 220 now quoted in reference to using coumaphos >> "Do not use before or after application of natural or synthetic >> pyrethrins or compounds used to synergize them." While I do not have the book cited, and the context in which the statement was made is not mentioned, the quote seems to be a warning that is specific to cattle, rather than bees. Here's an example of this exact concern as translated into practical "application advice" (in section "C", "Coumaphos"): http://www.ent.uga.edu/pmh/Animals/Beef_Cattle_Insecticide_Mixing.htm "Do not apply in conjunction with oral drenches or other internal medications nor with natural pyrethrins or synthetic pyrethoids or their synergists or with other cholinesterase inhibitors." As one with some experience in reading and understanding these types of warnings, it appears to me that, even for cattle, the advisory is limited to applications of coumaphos and pyrethrins within very short spans of time, like "same day" or "same spraying". Note that this is not even a required label warning or label advisory for either class of chemicals, so I'd guess that there is not even a consensus about this "risk" in regard to cows, sheep, and other mammals. Anyone cowed by an out-of-context quote may be getting a bum steer. I don't want to horn in, but someone must present the udder point of view if both sides are to be herd. I'm milking this for all it is worth, and many may beef about this, but I could go on until the cows come home. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: A swarm in Minneapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey bees make the news again. This time in downtown Minneapolis, Minnesota. Here is the link to the news story about the swarm and a video link if your connection is fast enough. Thought you all might be interested. http://www.kstp.com/article/view/100204/ It is swarm season - a great time of the year, as long as it is not my hives that are swarming. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:47:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Comments: To: max.watkins@VITA-EUROPE.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: ; Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Hello Max, Bob said, "I predict when resistance to Apistan happens you will soon find fault with thymol. The still effective Apistan treatment (U.K.) is making the thymol treatment seem more effective in my opinion." Why? I will use liquid formic acid in Canada as an example: Two delivery methods were being pushed at the last ABF convention. Both makers talked about the great shape of their bees. Both were using Apistan once a year and the formic method they were selling once a year . Both were not in an area of fluvalinate resistant mites (at least not over the last few years for which their success was claimed). Many U.S. beekeepers which did proper testing ONLY USED Apistan once a year and had very healthy bees. My point is if your 98% to 100% control is working and you are not faced with reinfestation why treat twice a year? Let us see how well those treatments work without the backup of a 98 to 100% control! An excellent article on Thymol is on page 489 of the June 2003 American Bee journal. as one can clearly see testing results are all over the scale . >From a low of 64% (Imdorf 1999, Ellis 2001) to reported 99% control from overseas studies. Thymol has promise but does not provide control in the range desired by most U.S. beekeepers *All* the time and in my opinion never will. I believe beekeepers in California, Texas and Florida might get control in a higher range than those beekeepers in the Northern states unless the thymol treatment takes place in say August in New York and North Dakota (as example). Tymol is temperature dependent (and in my opinion humidity dependent to a point). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Top Entrance Hive Update A quick update on the new top entrance hive. I checked this weekend just prior to our main flow. The new split seems to be doing as well in the top entrance hive as its "normal" sister. Two observations: 1. Since I elected to use a normal screened bottom board and not the solid bottom board with removable cleaning tray that is part of the kit, there does appear to be more trash buildup on the screen. I noticed several workers struggling to drag their deceased sisters up and carry them out the upper entrance. 2. When you remove the cover and upper entrance, the returning foragers seem confused as to where to go and form a cloud about chest high looking for the entrance. If you spend any time at all looking around you can have quite a large group hovering about. This can be quite intimidating for a newbee. Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:11:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Pheromone Lures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Regarding Queen Mandibular Pheromones and attracting swarms, on 25 May 2003, Jim Fischer wrote: There are those that say that Nazarov pheromone can attract swarms to traps, and quite a bit of it gets sold, much of it with swarm traps, but I don't know of any studies that showed any statistically significant advantage over traps baited with "old comb". I also don't know of any studies that showed any statistically significant advantage to using old comb as "bait". I bait my homebrew traps with "old comb" (hey, it is free...), Jim, I can direct you to an article I authored in the March 2002 American Bee Journal, Volume 142, Number 3, pages 174-177. You'll find the references and scientific information for the superiority of pheromone lures over old, dark comb to attract swarms. But if old comb works for you, more power to you! Using old comb, how is your success rate in attracting swarms? As we know, bees "in the wild" find all kinds of great places to make a new home without bait combs and without pheromone lures. I'm sold on lures, however. I've tried traps with comb and no lures, but the bees always prefer traps with lures. Also, I don't use those "bucket" traps. All the bees' energy directed to building comb goes for naught as you transfer them to a standard hive body. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:13:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/05/03 05:03:33 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Acetic acid works on EFB, what keeps it from working on AFB? >> AFB forms spores that are very resistant to everything except fire. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:25:36 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Varroa resistance to Acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit General Question whilst resistance exhibited by Varroa is topic! Are treatment using various acids and the like to deplete varroa population levels expected to fail in the future? As I understand it, the successful use of such materials depends on their chemical properties to "physically" attack the body components. ie. corrosion, denaturisation of tissues etc, rather than compromising metabolic reactions. I realise that there maybe a fine line between the two treatment strategies. Talk has been around that varroa mites are showing resistance to Oxalic acid treatment (rumour?) via. increased ability to hydrolyze the acid. Bob mentioned that Apistan success may be covering up limited success of Thymol (various formulations) treatments. But, by rotation, Thymol may be limiting the build up of mites resistant to Fluvalinate (basis behind rotation of treatments!). But if resistance to thymol is not expected or at least will be long in the coming, it is a good move in theory. Have Acarine mite ever shown increased resistance to the treatments that are used to control their population levels? Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:02:07 +0100 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Fwd: Coumaphos reaction with fluvalinate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, Zachary, Lloyd, Allen and All > But how does this finding correlate with the "dual-resistance" > to BOTH fluvalinate and coumaphos experienced by beekeepers who > used coumaphos, and only coumaphos for a few seasons? > > From what you say, it follows that fluvalinate resistance cannot be > "the same as" coumaphos resistance, and neither can be the same as > "dual resistance". This seems to imply that there is more than one > way to be "fluvalinate resistant". In a way, yes, there could be a link. Zachary's paper focuses only on the alteration of the sodium channel protein as a resistance mechanism. He prefers to discount the possibility that there are other mechanisms also at work in US resistant mites. It is quite conceivable that the full resistance seen to fluvalinate in some strains of Varroa is due to a combination of mechanisms: alteration of the sodium channel protein as well as boosting the fluvalinate-degrading mechanisms. Possible fluvalinate-degrading mechanisms include monooxygenases (see the first two abstracts below) which are also implicated in resistance to organophosphates (the third abstract, for example). So yes, it is conceivable that as the mite adapts to coumaphos, or indeed to fluvalinate, it becomes prepared to some degree for the challenge of the other class of compound. So there *is* a theoretical reason why some cross-resistance, or at least a degree of preparedness, exists in mites for these two classes of compound. It may not be the full story, but may be a part of it. all the best Gavin. Title: First data on resistance mechanisms of Varroa jacobsoni (Oud.) against tau-fluvalinate. Author: Hillesheim, Elke, Ritter, Wolfgang, Bassand, Denis. Author Address: [a] Sandoz Agro Ltd., Biological Res. Station, 4108 Witterswil, Switzerland Source: Experimental & Applied Acarology 20 (5) 1996. 283-296. Abstract: In 1991, the first losses of efficacy of tau-fluvalinate against the honeybee ectoparasite Varroa jacobsoni Oud. were recorded in Sicily. Since then, diminished efficacy with available pyrethroid treatments has been encountered in many regions of Italy. The aim of this study was to investigate the type of resistance in V. jacobsoni to the pyrethroid tau-fluvalinate by focusing on metabolic resistance mechanisms (detoxication). After developing a suitable application method, two synergists were used: piperonyl butoxide (PBO), as an inhibitor of the microsomal monooxygenases of the cytochrome P450 complex and S,S,S-tributylphosphorotrithioate (DEF), which blocks esterases. A significant decrease in the LC-50 values of the susceptible and of the resistant mite strains after the application of PBO was observed. A slight decrease of the LC-50 values was also observed after the application of DER However, this decrease was not significant. These results indicate that the resistance of Varroa mites to tau-fluvalinate can partly be explained by an increased detoxication due to the monooxygenases in the P450 system, which is blocked by PBO. Esterases seems to play a negligible role. Whether glutathione-S-transferases are involved, is still unknown, but other mechanisms, such as the modification of the binding sites and/or reduced uptake might be involved as well. Title: First detection in Israel of fluvalinate resistance in the varroa mite using bioassay and biochemical methods. Author: Mozes-Koch, R., Slabezki, Y., Efrat, H., Kalev, H., Kamer, Y., Yakobson, B. A., Dag, A. Author Address: [a] Inq.: U. Gerson, Faculty of Agriculture, Food and Environment, Department of Entomology, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot, 76100, Israel Source: Experimental and Applied Acarology 24 (1) Jan., 2000. 35-43. Abstract: The aim of this study was to explore the extent of varroa mite resistance to fluvalinate in Israel and to determine the underlying biochemical mechanism. Assays at different apiaries indicated varroa mite resistance at three of the five sites tested. Dose response assays conducted with tau-fluvalinate on mites obtained from different sites indicated uneven resistance. A monooxygenase assay revealed an increased rate (approximately 20-fold) of activity in mites that were not controlled by the pesticide, as compared to activity in mites from untreated colonies. A minor, 1.5-2.5 fold, increase of esterase activity was also noted in the resistant mites. This first demonstration of a fluvalinate-resistance mechanism in varroa mites points to the need for more vigorous resistance management practices to control the pest. Title: The role of gene splicing, gene amplification and regulation in mosquito insecticide resistance. Author: Hemingway, Janet, Hawkes, Nicola, Prapanthadara, La-Aied, Jayawardenal, K. G. Indrananda, Ranson, Hilary. Author Address: [a] Sch. Pure Applied Biol., Univ. Wales Cardiff, P.O. Box 913, Cardiff CF1 3TL, UK Source: Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B Biological Sciences 353 (1376) Oct. 29, 1998. 1695-1699. Abstract: The primary routes of insecticide resistance in all insects are alterations in the insecticide target sites or changes in the rate at which the insecticide is detoxified. Three enzyme systems, glutathione S-transferases, esterases and monooxygenases, are involved in the detoxification of the four major insecticide classes. These enzymes act by rapidly metabolizing the insecticide to non-toxic products, or by rapidly binding and very slowly turning over the insecticide (sequestration). In Culex mosquitoes, the most common organophosphate insecticide resistance mechanism is caused by co-amplification of two esterases. The amplified esterases are differentially regulated, with three times more Estbeta21 being produced than Estalpha21. Cis-acting regulatory sequences associated with these esterases are under investigation. All the amplified esterases in different Culex species act through sequestration. The rates at which they bind with insecticides are more rapid than those for their non-amplified counterparts in the insecticide-susceptible insects. In contrast, esterase-based organophosphate resistance in Anopheles is invariably based on changes in substrate specificities and increased turnover rates of a small subset of insecticides. The up-regulation of both glutathione S-transferases and monooxygenases in resistant mosquitoes is due to the effects of a single major gene in each case. The products of these major genes upregulate a broad range of enzymes. The diversity of glutathione S-transferases produced by Anopheles mosquitoes is increased by the splicing of different 5' ends of genes, with a single 3' end, within one class of this enzyme family. The trans-acting regulatory factors responsible for the up-regulation of both the monooxygenase and glutathione S-transferases still need to be identified, but the recent development of molecular tools for positional cloning in Anopheles gambiae now makes this possible. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: Varroa resistance to Acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who told that mites are resistant to natural acids? It’s like a steelworker for 40 years; do you think he is resistant to liquid steel? I treated my bees a few years ago with Thymol and it works great. The good thing: it was hard to find a mite in my colonies, the bad thing I couldn’t sell my honey. The taste was like licorice and the smell like toilet stones. Now I’m testing Oxamite and I think that’s not bad. After 14 days in a colony bees shredding the strips and I have lots of mites on the sticky board. Bad thing; it doesn’t reached mites in the closed cells, the good thing; it’s a long-term treatment over 5 weeks and longer. Alfred :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:14:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa resistance to Acids Alfred said: > I treated my bees a few years ago with Thymol and it works great. The good > thing: it was hard to find a mite in my colonies, the bad thing I couldn’t > sell my honey. The taste was like licorice and the smell like toilet stones. This is not my experience. How did you use the thymol and in what quantity? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:16:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > AFB forms spores that are very resistant to everything except fire. And heat at the right temperature and time. Humidity will also play a big part. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "yoonytoons." Subject: Unstucking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentle Folks, I need your collective wisdom on (1) how to “unstuck” a seriously rusted valve, attached at the bottom of a capacity settling tank that I inherited from my neighbor’s deceased father-in-law, whose operation was, evidently, put to stop, after years of successful beekeeping, by mites about a decade or so ago. Fortunately, the tank itself is made of stainless steel; however, by the time I rescued the abandoned settling tank from the ole hand’s backyard, it was rotting in the element; he even had many antique, funny-looking, unusable extractors there as well. [I now wear the dead man’s bee suit and veil for double protection, though!] I tried WD-40 to dislodge and unstuck the large, comma-shaped, old valve, but to no avail. The tank, whose radius measures about 26 ½” and its height 36”, also has a drainage pipe at the bottom, as well. This drainage pipe will be plugged up for now since I do not have any pump. (2) I also wonder if the dealers sell steel legs for me to put this tank on: I know they do but am not sure on the size. (3) Finally, I need to replace the dead-gum plastic gear in my Hand Crank Radial 9/18 Maxan Extractor. Do I need to purchase the brass replacement from the dealer, or can I just find it locally? Don’t understand why they put plastic junk in there in the first place. Thanks for the help. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:54:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Comments: To: max.watkins@VITA-EUROPE.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Max, Bob said, "I predict when resistance to Apistan happens you will soon find fault with thymol. The still effective Apistan treatment (U.K.) is making the thymol treatment seem more effective in my opinion." Why? I will use liquid formic acid in Canada as an example: Two delivery methods were being pushed at the last ABF convention. Both makers talked about the great shape of their bees. Both were using Apistan once a year and the formic method they were selling once a year . Both were not in an area of fluvalinate resistant mites (at least not over the last few years for which their success was claimed). Many U.S. beekeepers which did proper testing ONLY USED Apistan once a year and had very healthy bees. My point is if your 98% to 100% control is working and you are not faced with reinfestation why treat twice a year? Let us see how well those treatments work without the backup of a 98 to 100% control! An excellent article on Thymol is on page 489 of the June 2003 American Bee journal. as one can clearly see testing results are all over the scale . >From a low of 64% (Imdorf 1999, Ellis 2001) to reported 99% control from overseas studies. Thymol has promise but does not provide control in the range desired by most U.S. beekeepers *All* the time and in my opinion never will. I believe beekeepers in California, Texas and Florida might get control in a higher range than those beekeepers in the Northern states unless the thymol treatment takes place in say August in New York and North Dakota (as example). Tymol is temperature dependent (and in my opinion humidity dependent to a point). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: amitraz and fluvalinate On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:59:44 -0500, Bob Harrison < busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM> wrote: >When you add the word (yet) I believe in your mind you would not be shocked >to find scientific evidence to prove that the coumaphos resistant varroa >now found in Florida and New Jersey are in fact resistant to all three of >these chemicals coumaphos, fluvalinate and amatraz. I would not be shocked, but perhaps intrigued because if the mites are indeed doing that it means three possibilities: 1). the mites were exposed to all three chemicals and have built resitance sequentially (i.e. to fluvalinate first, then to amitraz, then to coumaphos). I.e. someone has been using amitraz perhaps illegally. 2). the mechanism of resistance is increased detoxification and resitance to one enabled the mites to be resistant to others. This can be verified through biochemical study (no live mites are need for biochemical study, however to verify that they are resistant to all three in a lab study, indeed requires live mites. often field assays are not good enough for publication purpose). 3). mites developed resistance to fluvalinate, but developed resistance quickly to other chemicals (Llyod's point). This is also possible. In the cas of calorado patato beetles, the current life span of chemial control (before resistance takes over) is about 2-3 years, while in the 50s, it took over 10 years. This seem to sugget that once a bug acquires some arsenal for resistance, it can shuffle (re-arange) the genes and fight a new drug easier (usually because of mechanism 1 and 2 of my previous post). cross resistance based on target site alternation would depend on how closely related the chemials are, and on the surface, gene suffling should not help. but who knows. >If scientific research says those varroa should have reached the LD 50 and >did not then is the problem in the application? Field assay should always be followed by lab assay to verify that mites are indeed resistance to various chemicals. > >As a small orchard owner I realized years ago that timing and method of >application was as important as the chemical used. > >Bob > Zachary Huang over 300 beephotos at http://photo.bees.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: cross resistance >I think my post commented on an understanding I have that when V.D. becomes >resistant to fluvalinate it is only a very short step to resistance to >amitraz. (If I didn't say that, that is what I meant to say.) > >What say you, Zachary? Lloyd, This is quite possible, but perhaps not because the two chemicals are in the same class (they are not), but because of generalized increase of detoxification enzymes available (see my post today re three scenarios). One of them is that amitraz might have been used for a quite awhile in US. Zachary Huang http://photo.bees.net includes 375 annotated, searchable bee photos :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) Anyone has seen this kind of strange capping? http://photo.bees.net/gallery/Disease-and-Pests/strange_capping I just got lucky! I saw this again (after 3 years!) today and I will try to freeze it to take some measurements. Perhaps swap the queen later also to see if it is genetic or not. Unless it is related to be in an observation hive... donot see how light could have induced it though. almost as if the bees are trying ot save on wax (but does the sunken cappings use less wax?). very pretty pattern though. Zachary http://photo.bees.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:28:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Unstucking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank Yoon said: > I need your collective wisdom on (1) how to "unstuck" a > seriously rusted valve... > I tried WD-40... WD-40 is not a penetrating oil for rusted parts. It is merely a lubricant. I have seen cans of "PB Blaster" appear on a few machine shop workbenches, making me think that it is an improvement over traditional penetrating oils, like "Liquid Wrench". One trick I have used is to apply the penetrating oil, soak the rusted threads for a few days, and then use a hand torch and some water to heat up and then rapidly cool down the valve a dozen times, breaking the rust up so that the valve can be unscrewed from the tank. A large monkey wrench with a 4-foot length of "steam pipe" slid over the handle can help here. Assuming that the valve has a "standard" size and thread, one can replace it with a new valve. I doubt that the valve itself can be salvaged if it is so badly rusted. > Finally, I need to replace the dead-gum plastic gear in my > Hand Crank Radial 9/18 Maxan Extractor. Don't understand why > they put plastic junk in there in the first place. Most plastic gears are designed in with deliberate intent. Lots of motor and gear assemblies have this "feature", the most common being kitchen appliances, like mixers. The idea is that the plastic gear is a "mechanical fuse", protecting more expensive motor and remainder of the "transmission" from mangling. If this plastic gear stripped on a hand-cranker, then I'd guess that something else needs replacing, perhaps the spring that acts as a "clutch" for the handle has gotten sloppy, and also needs to be replaced. Does the handle disengage when you get the extractor "up to speed"? jim (Amish Tech Support) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:35:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Zachary & all > http://photo.bees.net/gallery/Disease-and-Pests/strange_capping My calendar does not say April 1st, so I suspect some other sort of leg pull. It is the sort of pattern that could result from pinkilling in the rosette shape rather than the diamond shape, but if the larvae are alive and develop into full size adults that is ruled out. The only guess that I can make is that the larvae in the cells that are at the centre of the rosettes emitted some sort of pheramone that inhibited/stunted the growth of the larvae in the cells surrounding it. > trying ot save on wax (but does the sunken cappings use less wax?). I would sugest that if the capping is debossed by the same amount that it would normally be raised then wax usage would be the same. If the sinking is deeper than this, then more wax than normal would be required. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:22:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Unsticking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank In-Reply-To: <200306031227.h53BhC5I006760@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I tried WD-40 to dislodge and >unstuck the large, comma-shaped, old valve, but to no avail. The tank, >whose radius measures about 26 ½” and its height 36”, also has a drainage >pipe at the bottom, as well. Try "Liquid Wrench" (available in small cans) and then tap with a hammer to set up a vibration. I managed to unfreeze the pistons in an old car engine that way. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: muses Subject: BLASTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blaster rules. Nothing like it. Everybody needs to keep a can around for emergencies. I wont even consider working on a car without one handy. It works better than borrowing someones husband! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:37:41 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <000601c32937$6f22d640$15ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, In Bob's recent posting it was proposed that thymol treatments were only effective if combined with an Apistan treatment during the same year. It's not that simple; in many European and other countries there is widespread resistance to pyrethroids, coumaphos and to amitraz. Many, many beekeepers are using thymol-based treatments WITHOUT the backup of an Apistan, Perizin or Apivar type treatments because they just don't work in some areas. So I can't agree with Bob's premise. In my own opinion, thymol/organic acid treatments of any type on their own may not provide the 97 - 98%+ control of mites every time such as we have seen with Apistan and some other treatments but sometimes they do. OK, the results between colonies may be more variable than with Apistan treatments but at least there is no resistance and mites are being eliminated from the hive. A further treatment of some sort may be necessary but isn't it worth it to overcome this plague of resistant mites? As far as I am aware, there is no wonder drug around the corner to replace Apistan [or Checkmite in The States]. Varroa resistance is serious trouble and will only be restrained (not eliminated) by IPM practices being introduced in treating our colonies. Monitoring is crucial to the success of IPM and good hive management. Chris Slade earlier referred to resistance reversion in varroa; from the European monitoring trials we have been involved in, pyrethroid resistance as a character may start to be reduced from a varroa population over the course of 4 years. It depends on many factors, not least the abstinence of any form of pyrethroid treatment within the region over a 3-4 year period, or longer. In the USA, where beekeepers are now seeing resistance to pyrethroids, to coumaphos and to amitraz, this is not going to disappear overnight; it will gradually grow and spread unless other methods are used. Thymol-based treatments such as Apiguard, organic acid treatments or biomechanical methods may not be everyone's preference but they may be more helpful than you think, whether the mites in your colonies are pesticide-resistant or not. I guess it's a matter of individual choice. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:26:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Bob said:> I believe beekeepers in California, Texas and Florida might get control in > a higher range than those beekeepers in the Northern states unless the > thymol treatment takes place in say August in New York and North Dakota (as > example). I find that here (Midlands, UK) treatment with powdered thymol crystals in March and August (i.e. before and after the flow) gives excellent control with no contamination of wax or honey. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:11:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) >My calendar does not say April 1st, so I suspect some other sort of leg >pull. It is the sort of pattern that could result from pinkilling in the >rosette shape rather than the diamond shape, but if the larvae are alive and >develop into full size adults that is ruled out. NO, the frame was from an observation hive and we never tried pins on pupae yet. >The only guess that I can make is that the larvae in the cells that are at >the centre of the rosettes emitted some sort of pheramone that >inhibited/stunted the growth of the larvae in the cells surrounding it. Good hypothesis, but it does not explain why exactly 1 out of 7 would be inhibiting others. Also, inhibited growth should not resulting in different capping, only later capping. I guess I will need to: 1). take the fame out 2). map the brood with cellulose paper the normal brood. 3). emerge them in an incubator to see if there any difference between the two kinds of cells. 4). creat some small cages, and cage the one bee in the center, others cage the surrounding 6 bees (perhaps by killing the center one). or if I get lucky I can wait for bees to emerge and grab them in real time. 5). measure and weigh these newly emerged bees to see if they are different (size and weight). 6). measure cell sizes after bees are out to see if the cells maybe slightly larger in the center cell. Any other ideas? I will probably remove the brood sometime this week (so you are participating an experiment in real time if your input is useful). The observation hive was installed May 23, from a swarm (of known colony source so we can check the natal colony for the same brood pattern too, if so it would be maternal effect). Zach http://cyberbee.msu.edu http://www.mitezapper.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 21:04:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Angell Subject: pollination In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor 's message of Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:00:03 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Hi, I live in Rosebud MO and would like to know how many hives it takes to pollinate 2 acres of pumpkins. And what to charge for the services. Also, are pumpkins a good source of nectar or pollen? Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Rodney Angell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: Varroa resistance to Acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I used Thymol in 1998/99; 10 grams Thymol crystals like the Bee Institute of the University of Hohenheim made tests with years before. I had a good result too but problems with my honey. Alfred Conclusions · After the whole-year treatment of the colonies with the thymol frame some honey samples show thymol residues in the area of the tolerance value of 0.8mg/kg or above. The possibility that the taste of the honey may be changed cannot be ignored. · Presumably the removal of the frame during the honey flow can decrease the thymol residues but the success of the treatment might be reduced and be no longer sufficient. · Because of the concerns regarding honey quality, the use of the thymol frame cannot yet be recommended for practical application. http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/thymol.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:28:41 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: cross resistance Zachary Huang said: > There is no scientific evidence (yet) that the fluvalinate-resistant > mites are also coumaphos resistant, aside from anecdotal evidence. and he later said, about possible causes of "cross resistance": > One of them is that amitraz might have been used for a quite awhile in US. There is no scientific evidence, nor even anecdotal evidence that amitraz was in use where mites became either resistant or cross-resistant. :) Not to pick on Zach, who deserves kudos for being one of the rare card-carrying researchers who gives us the benefit of his views on this mailing list, but one might tend to get cross when cross-resistance is first dismissed as "anecdotal", and then promptly blamed on the beekeeper, based more upon an absence of specific evidence than any specific supporting facts. If beekeepers reporting problems are going to have dispersions cast upon their character and ethics, beekeepers are going to hesitate to report such problems. I think it should be clear that the mere number of locations where resistant mites of one sort or another have been found is evidence enough that this is a natural result of "by the book" use. As for "cross-resistant" or "multiply resistant" mites, I think that again, the number of sites should prove the point. http://www.apistan.com/newsroom/ABJ_article141-6.htm "A very unexpected result from this study revealed that the use of amitraz seemed to cause fluvalinate resistance to worsen in this varroa population. The explanation for this most likely is that there is cross-resistance between amitraz (a formamidine pesticide) and fluvalinate (a pyrethroid pesticide)-exposure to one affects resistance to that and the other compound. This has been backed up by additional research reports in Florida, which indicate that amitraz does not control fluvalinate- resistant varroa populations. For this reason we do not advocate further research directed at using amitraz to control fluvalinate-resistant varroa." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apis_Newsletter/message/14 Nov 2002 APIS "Reports continue of fluvalinate- and coumaphos- resistant Varroa mites around Florida. Beekeepers must continue to monitor their mites or they quickly can get into deep trouble." jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: pollination In-Reply-To: <15906-3EDD53B7-711@storefull-2135.public.lawson.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:04 PM 6/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I live in Rosebud MO and would like to know how many hives it takes to >pollinate 2 acres of pumpkins. And what to charge for the services. >Also, are pumpkins a good source of nectar or pollen? Most recommend 1 hive per acre on pumpkins. See http://www.ontariobee.com/5_pollination/default.htm This can vary depending on planting density and other forage available in the area. (For example, If the pumpkin patch is adjacent to a clover field in full bloom, you'll probably need more hives to assure a good set). Prices vary considerably depending on crop, number of hives, etc. I think they are typically around 35-65 per hive now. A 1999 study in the pacific northwest had an average value of $32.25 (up $2.60 from the previous year). See: http://members.aol.com/beetools/99polin.htm One canadian site lists the going rate at: blueberries and apples ranged from $65-$95 per colony for pollination and canola was $95-$125 per colony. (Of course these are in Canadian dollars) http://www.honeycouncil.ca/pollen.html I don't know if they are a significant source of pollen/nectar, though I doubt there are enough flowers to amount to much. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:43:26 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Bob Harrison said: > An excellent article on Thymol is on page 489 of the June 2003 > American Bee journal... results are all over the scale . > From a low of 64% (Imdorf 1999, Ellis 2001) to reported 99% control > from overseas studies. > Tymol is temperature dependent (and in my opinion humidity dependent > to a point). but Peter Edwards said: > I find that here (Midlands, UK) treatment with powdered thymol crystals > in March and August (i.e. before and after the flow) gives excellent > control with no contamination of wax or honey. and Max Watkins said: > Many, many beekeepers are using thymol-based treatments WITHOUT the > backup of an Apistan, Perizin or Apivar type treatments So, there appears to be a difference between the results seen in Europe and the UK and the results seen here in the US. Why? Different formulations? Different application methods? Why is it that my wife can take recipes from the King Arthur Flour "baking circle" mailing list, and reliably reproduce any recipe posted without any trouble? Could it be that bakers inherently realize something that beekeepers and entomologists don't - that one must both describe the formulation (what to use), the process, (how to apply), AND the application environment (time and temperature)? OK, so the "soft" treatments for varroa appear to be temp/humidity dependent. So is Apistan, to a lesser extent. But how long before some of these "studies" start recording the, ummm, temperature and humidity during application? One would think, given the bee's very tight control of both temperature and humidity in the immediate brood area, that a hive with honey supers removed would maintain a tighter temp/humidity range than the general environment. So what do we need? "Wind tunnel" tests of populated hives? Several hundred thermocouples to collect data from all over the hive? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:41:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Zachary & all > but it does not explain why exactly 1 out of 7 would be > inhibiting others. It is not one out of seven... the pattern is repeated, overall it is about one in two The pattern could originate due to the sunken cells coming under the influence of two non sunken cells with a 'fall off' of effect being so steep that it takes two cells (one either side of a sunken one) to create the effect in the first place. > Also, inhibited growth should not resulting in different > capping, only later capping. Are the moults governed by elapsed time or volumetric increase? I would have thought that growth could be stunted, but occur in the same developmental stages and same timing. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:45:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: resistance thoughts MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Evolution requires some sort of mutation and/or selection to be succe= ssful to change and adapt to a set of circumstances.=0D=0AInsecticide= / miticide/ physical resistance as a general "rule" can be approache= d if over 90 % of a population is killed for about 20 generations. Th= is requires a population which is contained and does not disperse or = is diluted.=0D=0AAs stated in an earlier post, cross resistance can s= hort cut this time by 3-4 fold due to overlapping sites of activity.= =0D=0ACross resistance has been demonstrated with pyrethroids and pho= sphates and carbamates.=0D=0ACritters can resist acids by possibly se= lecting for thicker or more acid resistant "skins" oils by some othe= r means.=0D=0AOn the plus side, the bees might be selected for more = hygienic physical behavior as in some wild species. Other traits coul= d develop such as thicker "joints" on the bees that resist attack by = mites. Most of these traits will probably happen naturally in 10,000 = years. FUND THE BREEDERS.=0D=0AApple tree mites, honeybee mites, and= other critters that do not readily migrate off the host. Some other = examples are potato beetles or corn in a large concentrated growing = areas where the pests remain in the general area and have few alterna= te hosts.=0D=0A=0D=0AI have faith that the mites will continue to be = selected for survivors ( those that have the necessary gene or mutate= ) to overcome the selection pressure. This , IMHO will also include,= all miticides whether pyrethroids, phosphates, acids, oils etc. And = will probably also adapt to any breeding program IN TIME.=0D=0A=0D= =0ANot to despair, with careful alternation of treatments, stable re= sistance, where all the population is treated to the very end so tha= t ALL the population will have the resistant gene. we can alternate t= reatments so that the resistant gene is again overwhelmed by the non = resistant gene and the original treatment again works.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe= problem is that we do not have a ready arsenal of treatments to alte= rnate, including breeding. =0D=0AHowever, we are living "hand to mout= h" in that we push the available treatments to their limits and risk = stable resistance and losing that alternative.=0D=0A=0D=0ADan Veilleu= x=0D=0AIn the mountains of NC=0D=0A= :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:26:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lloyd spear Subject: releasing stuck valve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are things a lot better than WD-40 for such an application. Stop in any car parts shop and ask them for a recommendation. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 21:55:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: [BioBee] Re: AFB - help! I'm desperate! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erik wrote > The sun is said to kill AFB spores in 14 days, so the old cover could not > be the source for AFB, maybe for something else. Can you please quote the research to support this statement. Having done a bit of a study on AFB I cannot see how this would work. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Swarmy, aggressive nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm hoping the list can lend me their thoughts on something I've not = encountered before. I picked up a few 5-frame nucs on 5/21, and one was very strong. It had = started building queen cells, presumably due to being a bit cramped in = the nuc box. I decided to take the gamble, since it was such a strong = colony.=20 I immediately gave the colony room to expand, and cut out the queen = cells. I've inspected it twice since installing, and have found about = eight new queen cells each time (some in exactly the same place each = time). The queen must be a laying monster, as it has gone from 3 to = almost six full frames of brood in 12 days. The racial background is = mixed, but they look like Carnies, and are supposedly SMR. As an aside, I've also noticed the the temperment of the hive to be = getting much more aggressive as it has quickly grown. As I was = preparing to close up the hive yesterday afternoon, without apparent = provocation, several hundred guard bees very suddenly swarmed up at my = face - abnormally aggressive. The only thing I can recall which may = have set off such a reaction was accidentally crushing a few bees a few = minutes prior. I confess that I'm a bit intimidated at the prospect of = this hive attaining full size with this temperament. Could the = temperament be related to the swarmy "mood"? =20 I'm debating on whether to let the hive run as-is, and keep checking for = queen cells for a couple more weeks, or if I should pull a frame or two = of brood/bees, and donate to another hive? Is this new hive likely to = settle down in a week or two? Any thoughts in general? Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) It is not one out of seven... the pattern is repeated, overall it is about >one in two Yes I was wrong. I actually counted cells and it is one out of three (60 normal cells, 120 sunken cells)! still it does not explain why one would be normal out of three, in such a regular pattern. I suspect that the foundation is duracell. >Are the moults governed by elapsed time or volumetric increase? I would have >thought that growth could be stunted, but occur in the same developmental >stages and same timing. I see your point. I am not sure either if smaller larvae would result in lower cell capping in worker brood. in the spring you see a lot of pigmy bees, perhaps because insufficient pollen, but they all seem to have normal capping to begin with. Thanks, Zachary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:42:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: cross resistance >this mailing list, but one might tend to get cross when cross-resistance >is first dismissed as "anecdotal", and then promptly blamed on the >beekeeper, based more upon an absence of specific evidence than any >specific supporting facts. Jim, I felt I did not blame beekeepers because I offered ALL three possibilities. At this point I did not favor any one of them. So I felt I have been quite impartial in this respect. We are discussing possible reasons, and we must throw all possible ones on the table. If you felt offended by one option, then I have to back out from this discussion. I have many things to do, and this one I do not get any credit out of ! Discredit maybe. Zachary Huang >If beekeepers reporting problems are going to have dispersions cast >upon their character and ethics, beekeepers are going to hesitate >to report such problems. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: OK, so the "soft" treatments for varroa appear to be temp/humidity dependent. So is Apistan, to a lesser extent. Myself and others have never seen a temp/humidity problem with Apistan , checkmite or Mitacur. Yes, I have first hand experience with all three. I also remember when tracheal mites and varroa were talked about as a problem for the world but of no concern for American beekeepers. At bee meetings many did not want to even discuss the varroa problem going on in *Europe* as those beekeepers said: "Why worry as our legislators have closed our bordors and stopped the varroa problem from happening in the U.S. problem through smart legislation." Jim said: But how long before some of these "studies" start recording the, ummm, temperature and humidity during application? Recording the temperature & humidity *in the brood nest* is not hard but many still feel not worth the effort while running experiments and they are right in my opinion unless doing testing on a varroa control WHICH IS TEMPERATURE & HUMIDITY EFFECTED.. The reason being that most *strong* hives are very capable of maintaining a brood nest normal temperature and humidity in the 50% and lower range. The problem happens when humidity climbs up to the 75 to 85% range. When testing on thymol, formic acid, etc. is done and there are periods of high humidity for several days in the brood nest while treatment is on then the tests are in my opinion FLAWED. To be fair flawed on the low side. The only point I am trying to make is all beekeepers considering those type controls need to be aware of possible problems related to temperature and humidity during the treatment period. The subject is too complicated for me to go into all details but to sum things up extra days need to be added to the treatment period to make up for each and every day of high humidity as recorded . When the supply of thymol or formic acid gel has been exhausted extra days will not work so another supply might need to be added to continue the treatment (which could be against label). As I have said for years on BEE-L : When we are forced to use the temperature & humidity dependent controls for varroa control ( possibly now in many areas of U.S.) some large beekeeping operations (limited time) & some hobby beekeepers (limited knowledge) will see varroa control all over the scale. Up until now varroa control for many consisted of ripping open a package and sticking strips into a hive twice a year and getting varroa control. Now those will be talked about in many places as the *Good old days* of easy varroa control. The main reason of illegal dip use was to save money I have been told. Why many continue to use those methods when beekeeping has moved into the black ( high honey prices) for many is beyound me. Replacement of contaminated brood nest comb or your whole honey crop dumped in a land fill does not make use of illegal dip a wise choice looking back. The FDA is looking and checking. I learned about temperature and humidity effecting control when trying to figure out why I was not getting control with menthol treatments when those in other areas using the exact same methods were years ago using menthol to control tracheal mites. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:38:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max said: As far as I am aware, there is no wonder drug around the corner to replace Apistan [or Checkmite in The States]. Varroa resistance is serious trouble and will only be restrained (not eliminated) by IPM practices being introduced in treating our colonies. I believe Max & I are on the same page. I only wish to make the list aware of the limitations of the chemicals which will be available now that we are moving into a new era of control of varroa by chemicals which *are* temp and humidity effected. All the acids and thymol and fall into the class. Max said: Monitoring is crucial to the success of IPM and good hive management. Always has been but many (as Allen pointed out) are slow to learn. Max said: In the USA, where beekeepers are now seeing resistance to pyrethroids, to coumaphos and to amitraz, this is not going to disappear overnight; it will gradually grow and spread unless other methods are used. Allready is! Max said: Thymol-based treatments such as Apiguard, organic acid treatments or biomechanical methods may not be everyone's preference but they may be more helpful than you think, whether the mites in your colonies are pesticide-resistant or not. I guess it's a matter of individual choice. Always has been. Beekeepers choose wisely! Be as knowledgeable as possible on the treatment of choice. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > I only wish to make the list aware of the limitations of the chemicals which > will be available now that we are moving into a new era of control of varroa > by chemicals which *are* temp and humidity effected. All the acids and > thymol and fall into the class. Oxalic is limited down to about freezing, so it is not really limited. Which makes it a good choice since you can apply it in the north when the colony is broodless. But it has other drawbacks, depending on method of treatment. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:38:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Zachary You will find out when you measure, but the 'sunken' cappings may be 'normal height' and the middle ones could be deeper than they should be. I find it intriguing and look forward to you being able to find significant answers in due time. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc Todd, where did you get it? Remember scut workers hatch out a few days faster than EHBs, so that could account for everything from fast buildup to lots of queencells to their behavior. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:21:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: pollination In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030603232443.02f3e970@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 09:04 PM 6/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Also, are pumpkins a good source of nectar or pollen? Those I have spoken to that do cucurbit pollination in TN use 1 hive/acre and feed syrup to avoid starvation. However, most are on large crops (100 acre), not 2 acre plots, and the bees have little choice other than the pollination crop. If you area has alternative nectar/pollen sources at the same time, you may not need to feed (and may need more hives to get the bees to visit the pumpkin flowers). Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Get a swarm and cash in Los Angeles A recently-settled swarm is in a residential deck, and the owner wants the bees removed, rather than killed. He wanted to know if he could buy a bottle of Bee-Quick, and evict the bees himself, which tends to indicate that these are not AHB. He has called around, and gotten quotes in the hundreds of dollars. (Too rich for him.) He has a quote of $100 to kill the bees, but he would like to avoid this. He says: "The wood wall on our deck is old weathered tongue and groove and will be easy to open with a wrecking bar. We don't mind taking it apart." Anyone in LA who wants to do this for less than $100? Contact info below: Jay Teitzell 6133 Rodgerton Drive Los Angeles, CA 90068-1963 Home (323) 461-6266 jht@youngfastfunny.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 12:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tim Vaughan" > Todd, where did you get it? Remember scut workers hatch out a few days > faster than EHBs, so that could account for everything from fast buildup > to lots of queencells to their behavior. > I had considered the possibility, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions yet. After your post, I searched the archives, and did notice a number of traits matching AHB behavior. The nucs came from a migratory beekeeper here in Vermont, who also raises his own queens. I believe his breeding operation is in the south (Georgia, maybe). I suppose AHB contamination is a real possibility. I'll keep a close eye on the hive in question, and call the breeder. Thanks for the input. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:12:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Rigour in testing of thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I clipped this from one of Jim Fischer's posts that was dealing with thymol efficiency. > So, there appears to be a difference between the results seen in Europe > and the UK and the results seen here in the US. Why? Different > formulations? Different application methods? I believe that too much is taken for granted about the constancy of beekeeping. The more I hear about US methods the more I realise that their conditions are different and the 'mind set' of the beekeepers is also different from those that keep bees in British conditions. I hear 'treatment using thymol', but nothing about the delivery methods used... In UK we have the Frakno frame http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/fraknoframe.html A similar device devised by two other beekeepers http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/brooksknight.html We have Apiguard, which is gel based for controlled release of thymol under varying temperature and humidity conditions over a 6 week period. We also have other beekeepers that take the used tea leaves from tea bags and refill the bags with thymol crystals. Can we establish what delivery methods have been tried in US? at what time of year? and what prevailing weather? Were the teabags round or square? Another feature to this debate is whether or or not Open Mesh Floors (screened bottom boards) were in use and what type of stand or pallet was in use, If upper entrances were in use and so on. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:04:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa resistant to apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/06/03 05:04:42 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I find that here (Midlands, UK) treatment with powdered thymol crystals in March and August (i.e. before and after the flow) gives excellent control with no contamination of wax or honey. Peter Edwards >> Peter, What personal precautions do you take when applying powdered Thymol? Ken Hoare has some horrifying colour slides of eyeballs pitted by Thymol. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 06:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc In-Reply-To: <001701c32ab4$6f5cf9f0$d7ad72d8@SOD> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > >The nucs came from a migratory beekeeper here in Vermont, who also raises >his own queens. I believe his breeding operation is in the south (Georgia, >maybe). I believe the supplier you speak of takes his bees to South Carolina. I have a friend who used to take his bees to the same place...pre-dating Robbie's move down. The "German Black" bee was well entrenched in that part of the state. When he let his nucs raise their own queens, some were particularly nasty. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:53:21 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Strange brood capping -- for your eyes only :) Have these patterns shown up only in your observation hives? Perhaps only on the side towards the (stronger) light source? I am reminded of a moire pattern when I look at the cells, and I wonder if the effect is unique to an observation hive environment, and would not appear in a normal (dark) hive or an observation hive with a cover over the glass. Consider the heat more than the light. jim (who hopes he sheds more light than heat) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:08:15 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, Split the hive, take the queen away with some bees and brood to a new location. I normally just move it about three or four feet away and reverse the entrance. Leave the frames with queens cells at the old location. The old location will be queenless and will raise their own queen. The field force will remain with the old hive location. If you do not they will swarm. Cutting out the Q-cells just prolongs their desire to swarm and one day they will. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 05:32:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: Varroa resistant to apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following post was edited by the moderators due to inclusion of excessive quotes, etc.: --- > What personal precautions do you take when applying powdered Thymol? Ken > Hoare has some horrifying colour slides of eyeballs pitted by Thymol. I transfer from my bulk supply to a 7lb honey bucket working outdoors with the breeze coming from behind me to carry any dust away. I have safety glasses for this, but doubt that they are really necessary as there is very little dust if you work carefully. When applying to the hives just a teaspoonful is removed from the small container and placed in the honey jar lid on the excluder. I have never found that this creates any dust so I do not think that there is any danger to eyes. I wear rubber gloves all of the time when beekeeping and these are clean in soda solution after each hive. Incidentally, I do have thorough six-monthly eye checks for another condition (not surface related but everything is checked) so I think that I would soon know if there was any problem. It would be interesting to know more about Ken's slides and exactly how the damage was caused. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 05:35:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following post was editted by the moderators to remove excessive quotes: --- Todd, Since this queen may be SMR it would be worth while to save her. I suggest taking the queen and a couple frames of emerging brood and putting them back in the nuc. Then let the hive go on with what it seems bent on doing - raising a new queen. When things settle down again you can replace the new queen by removing her and combining the nuc with the newly queenless hive. I have not experienced the sort of situation you have, but I suppose the temperament could be related to the frustrated swarming urge and thus temporary. Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:22:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Fiala Subject: VA/MD state meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Virginia State Beekeepers' Association and Maryland State Beekeepers Association are holding a joint meeting at the Northern Virginia Community College - Manassas Campus on June 20-21, 2003. The meeting features presentations by Keith Delaplane from the University of Georgia; Mark Feldlaufer, Jeff Pettis, and Kevin Hackett from the USDA, Rick Fell from Va Tech, Wyatt Mangum, and other noted speakers. This will be an excellent opportunity to meet with beekeepers from neighboring states, share management tips, and begin new friendships. We'd love to have you attend. For the complete program, directions, lodging, or other information, please contact me. Alan Fiala President, Beekeepers Association of Northern Virginia (local host) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:35:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Swarmy, aggressive nuc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the input. I decided to pull two frames of brood/bees and donate to a weaker hive, so they have a bit more space now. Hopefully the swarm impulse will subside. I spoke to the apiary I got the nucs from. He breeds his own queens - these are Caucasian (Russian) x Carniolan SMR hybrids. This explains the dark color and somewhat heavy propolis. I've heard that some of the Russian hybrids can be a bit nasty. The breeder mentioned that he occasionally gets a hot hive like this, but they produce like hell. As an aside, I did notice that sugar spray had a noticeably better effect on them than smoke, which seemed to do damned little to calm them. I'll let it run for a while, and see if the temperament improves. Fortunately, they are in a modified top bar hive (it takes standard deep frames as well), so they should be a little more manageable than a Langstroth. In the meantime, I'll just put on the body armor when I work them. regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:49:54 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <009801c32a4b$74b55320$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know if there is such a great difference between results from Europe and from the USA on thymol use. It may just be that because over here we've had to manage resistant varroa for longer than in The States (I believe) that several different approaches to varroa control have been tried across the continent. When control levels using, for example, raw thymol or thymol-based products are above say, 60-70% that's a good basis to build that treatment into an IPM strategy and may be acceptable - as one treatment of at least two - by many beekeepers. With improved formulations the mite control levels are higher. There's a whole array of home-concocted essential oil and organic acid formulations and recipes to chose from (unofficially) which can give variable results but may still be helpful if used successfully in conjunction with another method(s). There are few reliable, researched and commercially-produced treatments based on organic acids or essential oils such as thymol however. Apart from Apiguard there is one other thymol product, Apilife Var registered in Italy and another, Thymovar, registered in Switzerland. Our formulation, Apiguard has been trialled in many countries (climate variables noted) with reasonable results and is the only such product accepted by the regulatory authorities and registered as a veterinary medicine across Europe. Even so, with the formulation optimised as far as we believe possible, there is some variability in its effect as the efficacy depends to some extent on climate and on the behaviour of the individual bee colony towards the preparation. This applies to all essential oil and organic acid treatments but we've tried to minimise the variability with Apiguard. Results using this treatment can be very good but neither Apiguard, nor any other similar treatment can be regarded as another Apistan in terms of high efficacy on all occasions. Relatively little work has been done on Apiguard in North America but from what we've seen to date it compares well to our European experience. Thyme will tell? Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal free download Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Indiana State Beekeepers Association publishes the ISBA Journal alternate months. The June 2003 issue is available for free download at www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/i0306.pdf (1.43 meg). It's a color document of 16 pages with articles of state, national and international interest. It's viewable with Adobe Acrobat Reader, a free download from www.adobe.com Back issues are available from www.HoosierBuzz.com ccrb - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Unstucking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, I will give the way I would fix the tank and then you can look for help in getting the tank fixed. I would heat the rusted valve cheery red with a torch and then the valve will screw out very easy. The tank will not take a lot of wrenching with a breakover unless a stronger stainless thichness than used by many makers without bending. I would then resolder the fitting as some solder will *most likely* have ran out. In fact I would remove the screw in connection and resolder the entire connection if the connection leaks. Try to heat only the rusted valve. It normally would take me only a few minutes to remove the rusted valve. Walter Kelley company will fix *stainless* tanks with problems but you should be able to find a person locally. Many people repair tanks in the K.C. area but we have got an older beekeeper which repairs tanks as long as you are not in a hurry as a couple months is the normal time period. His work is not pretty but never leaks and is reasonable priced. I checked the Kelley catalog and your tank dia. would indicate you tank is not a Kelley tank so you might have to get a stand made. Again not a big deal for a welder. You could used a heavy homemade wood stand. The problem may seem big to you but really pretty minor when you find the right person. Offer the welder a jar of honey and I suspect you will get the tank working for little money. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:09:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Margaret Hala Subject: Re: pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, We pollinate 3 different orchards for apples early then melons, pumpkins and squash later in the summer. They have between 2 and 5 acres and request 1-2 hives for pollination purposes of the later crops. I'm not sure what the USDA recommends however. We try to capture a swarm and start it on foundation so it's late getting up to full strength. (Even started on drawn comb it's doubtful if a swarm would produce much, if any, honey anyway.) By making the swarm draw comb, they are lighter when we have to move it, they're trying to build to produce and they're ready to work. Works well for us. Even following all the 'rules', we still have several swarm every year. If you're lucky enough to catch any, this helps soften the blow for loss of honey production because of the swarming. We charge $30.00 per hive. I would think 1 hive would be sufficient, but if it's a little on the weak side, take 2 and charge for one. (It's a pain stopping to work 1 hive, so what difference does it make if it's 2? If you take 1 hive and kill the queen? That's why we like to take 2.) I don't know for sure what pollination rates are where you are, so contact your local organization or a local beekeeper and check. I don't know about nectar from vining crops, but they get pollen and readily work each of the vining crops. They love to work cucumbers. Hope this info helps. Margaret Hala PS. We're in central Iowa. Rodney Angell wrote: > Hi, > I live in Rosebud MO and would like to know how many hives it takes to > pollinate 2 acres of pumpkins. And what to charge for the services. > Also, are pumpkins a good source of nectar or pollen? > Any advice would be appreciated. > Thank You, > Rodney Angell > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 00:33:27 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Unstucking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, You mentioned "solder" in your mail relating to removal of rusted valve. What type of solder is used? Maybe I am being totally unrealistic - but I thought that such material coming into contact with honey (low pH) is no longer allowed. Extractors etc. that I have come into contact with are stainless steel, welded under argon - no solder anywhere! Enlighten me with your experiences! Peter PS. We are talking about only using stainless steel wire for foundation fixing in the future + removing the possibility of using paradiclorobenzene for treating wax moth in stored supers. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 21:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Unstucking Rusted Valve on a Settling Tank In-Reply-To: <3EE124C7.8769D7AE@club-internet.fr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Peter comments: >PS. We are talking about only using stainless steel wire for foundation fixing >in the future + removing the possibility of using paradiclorobenzene for >treating wax moth in stored supers. Could you explain the implications of your post script? I don't understand the relationship the "+" connects. Thanks for help! Robert B. B'ham, AL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:54:24 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Postscripts explained MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, Thanks for your mail. My comments that were placed as a PS were after thoughts on a mail that was written in haste. Here in Europe, traditional use of materials in beekeeping are being challenged because of potential contamination of end product - i.e. honey Old style wire used in the fixing of wax foundation rots and contaminates - especially if it is galvanized. Paradichlorobenzene as used in mothballs - used during storage of supers, to protect the frames of wax again has problems. It is absorbed by the wax, then liberated into the honey. Both these points were touched upon as the original mail subject was inquiring about solder - a substance that will liberate metals into honey - causing unacceptable contamination. This also touches on the use of extractors that have cages manufactured with galvanized metal - now "illegal". I just wonder how much of this old equipment is still in use - and for how long, when new regulations "forbid" its use! Hope this answers your question Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 06:37:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: pitiful apiary inspectors Comments: cc: norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, yesterday I visited one of my bee yards in Beekmantown, NY. Preparing to open the first colony, I noticed some twigs and leaves protruding from between the supers and top brood box. Hmm...and then I opened the hive. The space between the supers and brood was filled with sticks, twigs, leaves, and dirt. What the....I cleaned the mess, finished the inspection, and moved on. Next colony....same thing. I looked around the yard. Many colonies had the same refuse. One had a stick...must have been 3/4" in diameter...between the boxes. Then I found...the last straw. A piece of an apple crate...4" x 6." The supers wouldn't even fit down onto the brood box...certainly noticeable to anyone who bothered looking. I found a yellow sticker...from the New York inspection department. So, obviously, the NY inspector had removed the supers, and placed them down...flat...in the dirt. Cute!!! These colonies had half filled supers, and were full of bees. I can only imagine...until next week when I check...how many queens he killed. You wonder why people don't want the inspectors to show up? I work damn hard to make a living with my bees, and I don't need some GD novice inspector, who doesnt know how to handle bees, screwing up. Is the inspection program so short on help that they can't hire knowledgeable help? I'm so p...t off my hands are shaking. Sorry to vent here, but the inspectors phone is busy, or he's out of town...ruining some other's bees. Anyone else have inspector stories that might make me feel better? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: pitiful apiary inspectors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030607061958.00b3da48@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The inspection process here in Manitoba is much different. The inspector calls first to inform you when he'll be arriving so you can be present during the inspection if you wish. I like this approach since it allows me to get a first hand professional opinion of the health of my colonies. Following the inspection, the inspector takes away a sample of bees - around 200 or so - from one or more of the representative colonies. In a week or so a report from the Provincial lab comes back with statistics on the health of the sample including mite counts. I've never been charged for this service although I only have a few colonies. Doug Lockport Manitoba Sorry to vent here, but the inspectors phone is busy, or he's out of town...ruining some other's bees. Anyone else have inspector stories that might make me feel better? Mike --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:06:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: pitiful apiary inspectors Michael, you should have left the hives alone, then got one of those 10 dollar disposable cameras. I'm sure if you had photos, we could stop that thing from ever happening again anywhere! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: pitiful apiary inspectors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030607061958.00b3da48@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In TN, we always called the inspector or a local stand-in to request an inspection (if you want to sell or move your bees). Most inspect with you, don't just show up. Moot point now, since his position was eliminated in the budget cuts this year. You now can get a local stand-in (ok, unless you want to move bees out of the state) or call his old boss and hope he can fit you in sometime (since he now fills his old job and this one). Of course, he doesn't believe in burning boxes, so he does have less to do. If you suspect disease, ou are encouraged to now call the local extension agent (they are training them all to be able to take pictures and send back to the university for diagnosis). Most of the agents have no bee experience and 17 counties have no agent at all (more budget cuts -- no hiring). Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael, I never have this problem as I haven't registered my yards. I tried for three years to do so but was told each time that NY state had no inspection program (no $$$ that is I assume) at the time. So I said the heck with it. After reading this kinda glad I didn't. I can't imagine someone having such lack of respect for someone elses property. I'd keep on the phone till I got a hold of someone and demand that they schedule a time to inspect so you could be standing there. Michael, can you image an inspector going to a dairy barn then kicking out the sides of the barn and beating the cattle and equipment? If unacceptible for the rest of agriculture then I see no reason for it to be the same here. I'd consider calling the police and reporting it as vandilism. Or some such action as this feeds the family. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:39:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > You wonder why people don't want the inspectors to show up? I work damn > hard to make a living with my bees, and I don't need some GD novice > inspector, who doesnt know how to handle bees, screwing up. Is the > inspection program so short on help that they can't hire knowledgeable > help? I'm so p...t off my hands are shaking. > > Sorry to vent here, but the inspectors phone is busy, or he's out of > town...ruining some other's bees. Anyone else have inspector stories that > might make me feel better? > Reply: This is one reason I had (when President of Arizona Beekeepers Assoc) The laws changed in beekeeping here (finally wiped statutes off books by the way). There was a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling on way to Supreme Court of USA that was never altered or challenged against 'illegal search and seasure' even concerning bees, that went against the state of Ohio I think if I am remembering correctly. It said a beekeepers bees is just like a home or place of business and written notice MUST be given to beekeeper prior to stepping foot in apiary or inspection is illegal trespass like illegal search and seasure. Michael Sir!!! I think you need a copy of this ruling (ABJ published notice of it in Magazine back in 1980s by the way!) and need to put it in face of your state inspectors and get the legislature there to make sure on paper they follow the law. They send you written notice and then you make arrangements to be with them and make surre they are trained/capable of doing decent work and not CRAP like you described that dirties crops to be taken and certainly is no good for bees. Why--- what if they not trained in Housel positioning???? You should make them resequence all those frames they got out of order!!!!!! ' >) Something to think about...... Give'em Hell. Dee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:35:38 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: pitiful apiary inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Commiseration on the way that your stocks have been treated - sounds like legalised vandalism to me! Even thought your bees have been treated in this manner - it must be remembered that the inspection service is there to help and advise. So what to do? Pick up the phone and explode the inspector? - may make one feel better. But, the long term view is to ensure that this is not repeated. That requires the hiring and training of good personnel. One expects that the inspection service is capable of finding these people. But: To ensure that the process continues in a proper manner - feedback is essential (positive or negative). The manner in which this is received may result in positive development with the beekeeping community - or helps set in a, to put it politely, a "me trust you?, never, and I shall do all I can to hinder you" attitude. The latter will result in beekeepers loosing out! We will be considered even more on a limb, eccentric, parasites on the agricultural industry. Beekeepers need to ensure that the inspection service has constant input from the industry, that individuals working for it have tight liaison with those they are inspecting. If we allow ourselves to just suffer imposition from above - then situations you describes will become the norm. What ever the level of beekeeping - individuals should get involved, give opinions, jump off the fence, generate debate, to ensure that we are listened to and most importantly, do so in a constructive manner. If something happens that is not agreed with, then say so, but ensure that a proposition is proffered to improve the situation. Don't just negatively criticize without the latter, you won't improve matters. This does not mean that "rolling on to your back" is required, definitely not! Complain, criticize, embarrass - but then construct, develop for a better next time. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: pitiful apiary inspectors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030607061958.00b3da48@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Jun 2003 at 6:37, Michael Palmer wrote: > Anyone else have inspector stories that > might make me feel better? I've always insisted on being present when bees are inspected. I don't know as you could hold them to it, but I've stated it pretty strongly. They have a legal right to inpspect, but damage they do is another issue that is a little more gray. One time I had a new bee inspector (with a PhD no less), who pulled a frame right out of the middle to start. You might get away with that with a nuc or a package newly started, but this was a good hive with plenty of burr comb along the top bars, and the queen could easily get rolled this way. I made it as clear as I could, without being nasty, that the first frame should be as far as possible to the outside of the cluster, and then only after one had cleaned up the sides of the top bars a bit, so the queen would not get crushed. Then you take each frame away from the next before pulling it. I've also shown AFB to inspectors that didn't seem to know what it looked like..... I'll give them once to err, but this is their job and they should be learning it. The best way to educate them is to be sure you are present. Dave in SC (who just got home from a trip and noticed a number of new listings for the pollination page, and will do ASAP) The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::