From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:23:15 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-75.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,DEAR_SOMETHING,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,URIBL_SBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1916A49035 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZds011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0306B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 208448 Lines: 4781 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors Michael Palmer said: >> I work damn hard to make a living with my bees, and I don't need >> some GD novice inspector, who doesnt know how to handle bees, >> screwing up. Is the inspection program so short on help that they >> can't hire knowledgeable help? Perhaps they ARE short on help, short on funds, and operating "as best they can" with "the best people they can afford". I think that it is important to note that this is the FIRST harsh word anyone has had for any inspector on Bee-L in several years. In that time, how many inspections were done? Thousands? That's a very, very low error rate. Offhand, I'd say that the level of professionalism is thereby proven to be superior in bee inspection as compared to other "professional services", such as doctors, plumbers, mechanics, lawyers, and engineers, where complaints are more common as a percentage of the total "service events". Dee Lusby said: > This is one reason I had (when President of Arizona Beekeepers Assoc) The > laws changed in beekeeping here (finally wiped statutes off books by the way). > There was a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling on way to Supreme Court of USA > that was never altered or challenged against 'illegal search and seasure' even > concerning bees, that went against the state of Ohio I think if I am > remembering correctly. It said a beekeepers bees is just like a home or place of > business and written notice MUST be given to beekeeper prior to stepping foot in > apiary or inspection is illegal trespass like illegal search and seasure. Gee, that's a grrrrrreat solution! Let's make the inspector's job HARDER to do, by spouting gibberish about bogus rulings by backwater appeals courts that won't even stand up to a cursory sanity check: a) Can bees be a public health issue? Yes. b) Are bee inspectors "public health officials"? Yes! c) What powers do a "public health official" have? c1) The power to enter and inspect any premises even against the will of the owner, at point of gun, if required. (Why? To protect the public!) c2) The power to seize and destroy diseased animals, quarantine people, entire buildings, whatever it takes. (Why? To protect the public!) c3) The power to "request assistance" from any armed force (police, National Guard, even regular Army) might be required to subdue resistance to their efforts. The recent "SARS" scare has shown that "public health officials" have powers that go far beyond that of police, and can stomp upon the (USA) 4th Amendment protection against "unreasonable search and seizure" at the drop of a virus. Yes, this is legal. Yes, it is fair and required in any modern society for "health of the public" to trump any legal mumbo-jumbo that might apply to criminal cases. It is a real shame that Michael's hives were inspected by someone with less-than tidy habits, and I can offer no clue as to why any randomly-selected person would NOT stack supers on an overturned outer cover as a default approach, but the answer here is to put a word in the ear of the state apiarist, and let him manage his people. I am sure that the error will be corrected, and not happen again. It is a worse shame that Arizona eliminated laws specific to bee inspections, but that would not stop a single one of the "feared" scenarios in the event of a clear and compelling public health issue, for example, a serious Africanized Bee problem. All they did in Arizona was to prevent a bee inspector from helping those who suffer from clumsy arrogance born of ignorance. Not to worry, those types rarely stay beekeepers for long. jim (Who keeps cold beer, hot coffee, and fine single-malts at the ready just in case a bee inspector might ever visit) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 01:09:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/03 8:18:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jfischer@supercollider.com writes: > Not to worry, those types rarely stay beekeepers for long. > > jim (Who keeps cold beer, hot coffee, and > fine single-malts at the ready just in > case a bee inspector might ever visit) > Reply: This says it all for how you treat inspectors vs wanting it done right. But you are right in fact that beekeepers who cannot keep bees are not beekeepers long! They quickly go under and then they are no bother. That helps to weed out the ones who do not belong so the ones who do can go forth, like better races of bees. Dee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 01:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Jun 2003 to 7 Jun 2003 (#2003-159) In-Reply-To: <200306080400.h583uK3e007917@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 6/7/03 23:00,Michael Palmer on LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: > So, obviously, the NY inspector had removed the supers, and placed them > down...flat...in the dirt. Michael, Upon reflection, I think I would get this incident on record. The way to do that is to write a formal complaint, listing time, date, details of the incident, inspector's name, and if possible include a copy of the inspection sticker. When things are written down and sent in they become a matter of record. Upon further reflection, I would also send the letter "Return Receipt Requested" along with a request for a reply to the letter. Hope things get corrected okay. Mike Stoops Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:10:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors In-Reply-To: <370101c32d6c$8778baa0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Jun 2003 at 23:17, James Fischer wrote: > Offhand, I'd say that the level of professionalism is thereby > proven to be superior in bee inspection as compared to other > "professional services", such as doctors, plumbers, mechanics, > lawyers, and engineers, Generally I agree with you, having received the services of a multitude of bee inspectors. There are both types, but the good ones are in the majority. And it's a pretty tough job to even get to the brood chamber when it's 95 degrees F, and the hives are stacked up taller than your head. Probably the worst offender I've ever had was a bee inspector who used his job to scout for new locations for his own bees, and moved into one of my yards in the spring before my bees came back north. That's not incompetence; that's an ethics violation. In South Carolina, one cannot own bees and be an inspector, as it is considered a conflict of interest. This rule would prevent such an ethics violation, but also means bee inspectors are amateurs at handling hives. All our inspectors have always bundled up like spacemen. But most inspectors are doing the best they can and some are real princes. We have only one inspector now for all of South Carolina, Fred Singleton, and, when the afrobeetles were discovered, was a major source of information for all the beekeepers. He went above and beyond the call of duty, in sharing videos and assistance to those of us with questions. Fred is one of the princes. But I still want to be present when the bees are inspected. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:26:41 -0500 Reply-To: Michael Vaughn Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Vaughn Subject: bee or fly?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have notice a white face ( bee or fly) working my huban clover, I was = wondering if it was a fly or a bee of some kind. I caught on in my bare = hand and it did not try to sting me. have any of you seen them and if so = what are they. just wondering????? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:59:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/03 5:21:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cinglegap@wilkes.net writes: > While I can emphasize with all who've had unfavorable experiences with > government officials ( and who has not had similar or worse experiences with > private ones?), we owe James Fischer a thank you for elequently reasserting > what it takes to underpin a civilized community. I've lived in societies > where these underpinnings didn't exist. It wasn't pleasant and we need to be > wary about protecting and enhancing the community we've inherited. Reply: While this can be true, however, in far too many instances I've seen and been associated with, or heard about, politics was being played and invidivuals were being singled out for either better or worse to make a statement, especially within our beekeeping industry. Here we have very bad inspection, and yet rather then talk about the need for perhaps a training program need for better inspectors, we seem to be talking about how to keep quiet about it on the beekeepers part. Or maybe there should be a hotline for reporting such irregularities by beekeeper! Still it goes back to main point. How many professionals doing vet inspections, looking for serious problems, just walk in to farm operations? Here I would say a routine inspection was going on. Appointment should have been made. Then if something out of ordinary found, then kick into higher gear. Any big problems to be known in area? It's like sneaking in and out to take a peak??? Why? That certainly does not sound professional by any standard to me. We are supposed to respect inspectors, but where is the respect to beekeeper up front. Also if inspectors are being hired to inspect industry, then the old question comes up and is what we used in Arizona. If true professionals, then why do we need inspectors? We should know what to do. Under law do inspectors inspect the newbees, the hobbysts, the new learners much? Seems this is where the greater need is. If now concentrating on where the need is, the newbees, then they are really needed. Are hobbyists industry for production purposes and pollenation for food products to public. Isn't that what industry is?Aren't newbees beekeepers in learning, needing to be shown more how to keep bees without problems. Professional shouldn't have disease problems they cannot handle or they wouldn't be professionals. Professionals should take care of themselves. If they cannot, then perhaps they should be allowed to go out of business, for do we need professinals that have to have their hands held? Maybe inspectors need to concentrate on newbees and professionals left alone. I think Michael is a good professional beekeeper or else he wouldn't be reacting this way to such sloppily crude inspection work. It's like a newbee inspector inspecting a pro and not in same category. Just a pityfull scenario that has taken place. Dee- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:35:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (D4431330) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Could you explain the implications of your post script? I don't mean this to be a condescenbding reply, but because I can, I'm jumping on the response. Peter's post seemed pretty clear to me. Stainless steel wire to wire frames: first thing that struck me was, "Man, that'll be expensive; yet another reason to go to plastic foundation." The reasons behind stainless steel wire is no impurities getting into the honey, as is the case with oxides of wire currently used to wire foundation. (Personal confession: I have NEVER wired a frame of foundation in my beekeeping career, which spans 3 decades.) > + removing the possibility of using paradiclorobenzene No PDB to protect against wax moth, and no PDB to contaminate combs. The point of Peter's post, and the intent of the movements behind Peter's post is to force beekeepers to get off the chemical merry go around (I guess I will ALWAYS miss Andy) and to put the PURE back in "Pure Honey". Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames Aaron said: > Stainless steel wire to wire frames: first thing that struck > me was, "Man, that'll be expensive; > The reasons behind stainless steel wire is no impurities getting > into the honey, as is the case with oxides of wire currently used > to wire foundation. Thin stainless-steel wire can be brittle. Very brittle. Why not use something stronger, easier to work with, and much, much cheaper? Think fishing line. Plastic. Inert. Cheap. Almost Free. Very high tensile strength. Won't melt in the solar melter. jim (Kung-Fuysics black belt and Fly-T'ai Chi practitioner) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:33:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames (#2) I said: > Think fishing line. ...and before "n" people pepper my Palm Pilot with: "That'll never work - how you gonna embed PLASTIC fishing line into foundation?" I guess I should explain that I have never embedded wire into foundation, as I found it a waste of time. I use the wooden wedge on the frame to secure the foundation at the top-bar, but not before sliding the foundation between the "wires" so that alternate wires are on opposite sides of the foundation, as shown in the ASCII-art side view shown below ( "o" is a wire, and "|" is the foundation) o | | | | o | | o | ...which is more than good enough. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:39:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim and all > Why not use something stronger, easier to > work with, and much, much cheaper? > > Think fishing line. > Plastic. > Inert. > Cheap. Almost Free. > Very high tensile strength. > Won't melt in the solar melter. I have been using Nylon monofilament for some years now, but it is not cheap... I use 0.45 mm "extra sure strength OMNI 3000" marketed by Shakespeare and made in Japan. Quoted strength is 9 kg or 20 lb, but it is stronger than that. It does stretch a little and so needs fitting with strong tension, but it costs £3 ($5) per 100 metres. However I find it good for my methods of beekeeping and now would not change back to metalic wire. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:05:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames (#2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Jim mentioned embedding fishing line (or at least that he does not do it). However I use exactly the same method of embedding for nylon that I use with wire... I have a soldering iron with a sawcut in the tip and reduce the amount of power to the iron by using a silicon diode to cut out half of the 'half cycles' of the normal AC supply. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/embeddingtools.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/framewiring.html Give some details. The soldering iron does not reach solder melting temperature, but this is not very important as the amount of heat transferred depends on the speed of dragging the hot tip along the 'wire' or 'nylon' and the amount of wax that is liquified in the process. Takes a few goes to develop the skill and you will end up with the odd small hole now and again. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:35:21 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron, Jim, etc. (sorry about being classed as an etc.) Bee-L sure does show the differences the different facets of beekeeping! Stainless steel wire, several points. Over here on the "old continent" of Europe - the greatest % of foundation that is placed into frames is unwired wax sheets. (UK being the exception). They require wire support - manually placed into frames, often during the winter months. The wax is then melted on to the wire. My first several thousand was done with "traditional" iron wire - that stretched and stretched, being quite ductile. A really good twang was obtained only to find that tension was lost over a short period of time. Stainless, allowed a good tension to be obtained - sure it will snap it one tries to tune it to the highest note on a piano. Price - yes it is expensive per metre compared to soft/galvanised wire, esp. if you renew brood frames after only 3 - 4 years. But it is clean. I often wondered in my hobby days why wax coming out of solar melter always had a dull muddy colour, even though it was collected into a nonstick tray having run down a steel slope! - the iron from the wire didn't help (+ zinc?). How many of you in the States, who apparently like to keep frames until they are dark, dark in colour, when finally rendering them down, find the wire support in bits? Where have the missing bits gone? - as Jim will no doubt support, material does not just disappear. Fishing line - sounds ok to me! - but can you buy it by the km.? Plastic foundation - seems to me like disposable nappies! - excellent whilst being used as foundation (not the nappies), but afterwards, where does it go? The loss of "mothballs" (paradichlorobenzene). No great worry for those living in clims. where there is a good period of negative °C's. - that really controls the wax moth. More of a problem where temperature does not drop to a level that kill the eggs. But, then, who wants certain cyclic aromatics swilling around in the wax after its use? The same with hive bodies treated with creosote. It preserves timber a treat (and to my nose has a delightful smell!) - but handling supers etc. on a hot day, brings the average beekeeper and the honey into contact with the preservative . To my mind, not really desirable. I consider, where possible, it quite logical to limit contamination of bees, wax, honey, beekeeper etc. when there are other techniques that may be employed. Some changes are more easily adapted to by hobbyists, others due to scale, by commercial outfits. Often the changes are being "imposed" by the buying public, with the support of present day scientific knowledge. Ignore them at our peril. So, returning to "solder"!!!!!! Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Wire For Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman Said: > I have been using Nylon monofilament for some years now, but it is not > cheap... > > > It does stretch a little and so needs fitting with strong tension, but it > costs #3 ($5) per 100 metres. > I have found large filler spools of various test (strength) monofilament so cheap it's almost free. Look to bargain stores (dollar stores, etc.), and clearance sales at sporting goods departments. Since diameter is the key here, and not brute strength, the cheapest 14-20lb monofilament should be more than adequate. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:54:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Nylon For Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I have been using Nylon monofilament for some years now, but it is not > > cheap... So what happens when you melt your old combs? Does the Nylon resist the heat? Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:02:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: bee inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First I want to comment on a couple of Jim's thoughts. 1. There were some recent prior complaints about the bee inspection process in the US. About two years ago. Jim was probably in China or somewhere remote and without his PDA. 2. Bee inspectors are not public health officials, or anything remotely similar. Mike's recent experience is not at all surprising to me, as I know at least one of the individuals involved. Lightly masked incompetence is the most charitable description that quickly comes to mind. And Mike's experience is all too similar to many from that part of the state (which includes my part of the state). The bee inspectors in NYS are dominated by commercial migratory beekeepers. Some are outstanding individuals and beekeepers, others you would not like to have as neighbors. This is normal, whether discussing inspectors or plumbers. I think I am safe in saying that all are 'in it for the money', and none are there because of any altruistic motives. Due to interpretation of state regulations and processes, their efficiency is surely no greater than 50%. (Defined as work accomplished compared to hours paid.) This is fine with most (or all) as they don't care what they are doing to get their $12-$20 an hour. In parts of NYS I am sure the hobbyists are well served by the inspectors. I can't imagine that commercial beekeepers are 'well-served' anywhere; I don 't believe that any of the inspectors are that well versed in current beekeeping matters. In other parts of the state not even the hobbyists are well served, and there does not seem to be any mechanism to remove or replace the bad apples. Too bad. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:28:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby Said: > Maybe inspectors need to concentrate on newbees and professionals left alone All due respect to Dee, but sometimes it is the for-profit groups that pose the most risk to all concerned. It is often the desire to "cut corners" in this context that results in real threats to the general public. I have seen "professionals" employ practices that make me shudder, like copper napthenate inside and outside hive parts (nothin' like "pure" honey!). I recently had an experience with a "professional" supplier who sold me a nuc infested with small hive beetles, then treated me like dirt when I asked for replacement. He even told me that he was not going to inspect the remainder of his nucs for such infestation, despite the fact that some of these nucs were doubtless headed across the state border. If anyone would like the grubby details, email me off list. > Or maybe there should be a hotline for reporting such irregularities by > beekeeper! I'm only a hobby/sideliner, but I think that we all must be careful that we don't invite too much government into our lives, professional or no. All these things come at a cost. Michael's experience is unfortunate, but I would suspect that there are already mechanisms in place to deal with such matters. A concerned letter to the State Bee Inspector would be a good start. If that doesn't get him anywhere, try a letter to the NY Dept. of Agriculture, and follow it with an open letter to the editor in a prominent local newspaper. These often get a LOT of attention, and place the forum where it has real effect - in the public's eye. My 40 odd years of life experience tell me that it is almost always best to deal with a problem in as dignified and civil manner as possible. Regards, Todd Finally enjoying decent weather in central Vermont, the epicenter of the universe (at least to me)... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:21:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Thailand Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I get email and phone calls from time to time from brokers trying to sell me honey. I have noticed the Argentines have really stepped up their pressure on Canada lately, and now I got an email today from Thailand. I thought it might just interest the list. I look forward to your erudite observations on the following: --- begin quote --- Dear Sir or Madam, Subject: Natural honey from Thailand Ref no. EX3205/2003 June 9, 2003 We send Thai honey specification to you consider. Sometimes you are interested. Detail as below: Product: Natural Honey from Thailand. Packing: 300kg/drum Loading: 60 drums or 18,000 kgs/20'FCL Price: FOB price at USD512/drum. Validity: 7 days after quotataion date. Term of payment: Irrevocable confirmed L/C at sight by prime bank. Shipment: Departure from Bangkok after receive L/C 7 days. This e-mail we sent honey testing from Laboratory Testing Services Department to you consider. Detail as below: Testing method: Enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). Chloramphenicol Test result Not Detected, Detection Limit 0.025mg/kg. Sulfaquinoxaline Test result Not Detected, Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg. Sulfamethazine Test result Not Detected, Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg. Tetracycline Test result Not Detected, Detection Limit 4.00mg/kg. Oxytetracycline Test result Not Detected, Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg Chlortetracycline Test result 3.42mg/kg, Detection Limit -. Now I have 5 containers (20'ft) in this season only. And will have again next season (next year) If you are interested and would like to import. Please contact. I will reply you as soon as possible. Waiting your reply. --- end quoted material --- allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com Hobby beekeeper: 47 hives. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Solder for stainless tanks Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Peter asks about the solder used in the U.S. In the U.S. you can use a 94.6 solder on the inside of a tank. 94% tin & 6% silver. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:54:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Nylon For Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & all > So what happens when you melt your old combs? > Does the Nylon resist the heat? Yes, although the odd one or two go so slack that they need re- doing. Nylon, or whatever polymer they are now using, will resist higher temperatures than beeswax. To pick up on Todds last message about cost... > bargain stores (dollar stores, etc.), We have similar bargain stores in UK, but I do not recall any of them ever having any fishing line for sale. > clearance sales at sporting goods departments As a disabled old git, I am unlikey to visit a sports department :-) My source of supply is a fishing tackle shop in the small town I live in, however the brand I am using is the cheapest that they have. I did on one occasion find a spool of suitable stuff at a 'car boot sale' which was only pennies. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bee inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd said: The bee inspectors in NYS are dominated by commercial migratory beekeepers. Whips & chains come to mind but surely whips and chains are not the domination you are refering to? I have only had professional dealings with the bee inspectors I have came in contact with and have learned from most. Joe Franca (Missouri retired) and Gary Ross (Kansas retired) to name a couple. I welcome both these guys looking through my hives giving me their opinion. My bees were inspected several times in the last six months ( California & Missouri) and you could never tell the bees had been looked at. I have got many friends in inspection departments around the U.S. and found all very knowledgeable. All I ever talked to were at least on a sideline/commercial beekeeping level. Even though many would say my knowledge of beekeeping is above the norm Blane will back me up when I say that when I sit in on a meeting of the U.S. bee inspectors I am very quiet and only spoke when Blane asked a question of me pertaining to the subject being discussed. I HAVE FOUND I LEARN A LOT MORE WHEN LISTENING THAN I EVER DID TALKING. In Missouri now our state bee inspector does not keep bees. he will be the first to tell you so. He does listen to the most prominet beekeepers in the state and use those to inspect other beekeepers hives. Zero problems so far. They can not however sign the inspection permit for their own hives I have been told. I did voice my disproval to the state bee inspector of Illinois at a Illinois state bee meeting I attended about wanting to have the beekeeper get a permit & inspection in Illinois EVERY TIME YOU MOVED HIVES FROM ONE COUNTY TO ANOTHER. When you operate in many counties the practice is a waste of time (in my opinion) . I suggested a better method might be to inspect the migratory beekeepers bees once a year and then allow free movement within the state. I am going out Friday and any yards not producing honey will be in another location which is producing as soon as possible and I do not want to wait for an inspection to move my hives in some case 4-5 miles into another county. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Planes vs Knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I was wondering why one might choose an uncapping knife over an uncapping plane or vice versa? They are generally comparable in cost, though the way most of the catalogs describe them there is a suggestion that the plane is more efficient. I would appreciate any wisdom on the subject (lets face it I could use some wisdom on almost any subject!) Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:35:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Planes vs Knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used both and found that the uncapping knife is easier to use. My uncapping plane has sat in a drawer for the past four years, maybe i should sell it on E-Bay. Norm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:39:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Planes vs Knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have used both and found that the uncapping plane is easier to use. My uncapping knife has sat in a drawer for the past ten years, maybe i should sell it on E-Bay. My uncapping plane has sat in a drawer for the past four years (when I got a Cowen Silver Queen uncapper), maybe i should sell it on E-Bay. Aaron Morris - thinking you won't get an agreed upon answer to this one. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:56:59 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Planes vs Knives MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We have used both and far prefer the plane (an ergonomic model from Scandinavia, I forget who had it). Among other things, the plane head is immersible in water and stays clean. Also it uncaps comb that is flush with the frame wood. May take an extra pass, but much easier on hands and wrists. So far has held temperature well, but didn't get much work last year in the drought. Carolyn in South Carolina, last year desert, this year building an ark. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] pitiful apiary inspectors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: deealusby1@AOL.COM > Here I would say a routine inspection was going on. Appointment should have been > made. Then if something out of ordinary found, then kick into > higher gear. Any big > problems to be known in area? In fact, if there are problems known to be in an area (or a beekeeper known or rumored to be a problem), a "suprise" or short notice inspection is the only way to go. Some people have been known to move the problems off site during an inspection then bring them back. > If true professionals, then why do > we need inspectors? We should know what to do. Sure, you SHOULD. But you still have inspectors for the same reason that beef is inspected for mad-cow, goats for scapies, various livestock for hoof and mouth. And the same reasoning applies to bees (livestock) with similar problems that are contagious (foul brood, africanized bees) and the same laws that give wide powers to bee inspectors. And lab analysis is required to positively determine AFB (versus other problems that may appear similar in the field). And hobby livestock keepers are subject to all the same health rules that professionals are (except, maybe, testing of their end result at the butcher shop). >Professional shouldn't have disease problems they > cannot handle or they wouldn't be professionals. A nice dream. Do cattle ranchers use veterinarians? Do they do mortality testing on their own? > If they cannot, then perhaps > they should be allowed to go out of business, for do we need > professinals that have to have their hands held? If they do not, they tend to accumlate fines and/or jail sentences (for example, moving livestock with a quarantinable or mandatory termination class disease, failing to take proper health precautions when such disease is found in their livestock, etc). > Maybe inspectors need to concentrate on newbees and professionals > left alone. Yes, we all know that "professionals" never get diseased livestock. > This is one reason I had (when President of Arizona Beekeepers Assoc) The > laws changed in beekeeping here (finally wiped statutes off books by the way). Which, just means many states will not (legally) accept bees moved in from Arizona -- no inspector to issue a certificate, which most states require prior to bees coming across the border. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:37:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave from SC wrote: >One time I had a new bee inspector (with a PhD no less), who > pulled a frame right out of the middle to start. You might get away > with that with a nuc or a package newly started, but this was a good > hive with plenty of burr comb along the top bars, and the queen > could easily get rolled this way. This prompts me to ask a somewhat related question. I recently watched a video where a reputable queen breeder advocated using only 9 frames in standard brood chambers to provide more space in between frames so as to lessen the risk of accidently rolling a queen. Are 9 frames better than 10 in this regard ? My intuition tells me the bees would draw out the 9 frames deeper to re-establish the bee space. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:00:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Are 9 frames better than 10 in this regard ? My intuition tells me the bees would draw > out the 9 frames deeper to re-establish the bee space. Well, it's not so much the thickness of the frames as it it the burr comb the bees build between the frames at the top bars. That is the place where bees tend to get rolled, as the comb passes the burr as Dave Green described. That is why one needs to cut the burr comb from bot sides of the first frame being removed, plus the facing sides of the adjacent frames. Once the first frame is removed, the remaining frames can be slid into the vacant space before the are taken out for examination. Running 9 frames will buy you room to move initially, but eventually the bees will build fatter combs, propolize the space between the end bars, and built more burr comb. Then you're back to the original problem; frames that are too tight with no room to move. The real trick here is to push your frames tightly back together after examining the hive. If you leave gaps, the bees will fill it in. There is a piece of equipment called a follower board. Designs vary. It can be a single board approximatelt the width of a single frame or it can be approximately half the width of a frame (in which case you use two). The follower Board comes out first, which gives you room to slide the first frame over before lifting it out (hence no bees are rolled). After examination, the first frames is put back where the follower board was, the second frame slides over and then lifts out without rolling bees... When the 9th frame has been examined, it is put back in the place where the eigth frame was, and the follower board is put back in the space where the ninth frame was. Hence the name; the board follows the last frame. This begs the question, why is it called a follower board, why not a first out board? The Brits solved that problem by naming it a dummy board, which is also appropriate because only dummies use follower boards anymore. I have them in all my hives! Follower boards fell out of favor as yet another piece of equipment that is not really needed. And again, the real trick is to keep your frames tightly packed, so the bees don't fill up / take away the room to move that is initially there when the equipment is new before the bees have gummed up the works. When the frames are brand new, there is plenty of space to work 10 frames without rolling bees. It's only after they have been used for a season or two that the space gets too tight. Keeping the frames tightly together will solve that probelm. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:47:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: bee inspectors In-Reply-To: <001b01c32e98$28aae160$95ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Bob Harrison > He does listen to the most prominet beekeepers in the > state and use those to inspect other beekeepers hives. Zero > problems so far. > They can not however sign the inspection permit for their own hives I have > been told. In TN, deputy inspectors (about 11 in state) can sign certificates for others who are moving or selling in the state. All are VOLUNTEERS, working in their spare time, and are reimbursed a small amount to help pay gas (which it does not do, when inspecting one or two hives at a sight). I assume they can sign for their own bees, as we also have a "self-certifying" program for larger beekeepers -- have the previous state apiarist's boss (apiarist removed by budget cuts, boss now filling his job also.) watch over your shoulder, give you a certificate and you "inspect yourself". Neither will do for moving bees out of state -- that requires "state apiarist" himself (which is the one allowing you to self-certify, above). > I did voice my disproval to the state bee inspector of Illinois at a > Illinois state bee meeting I attended about wanting to have the beekeeper > get a permit & inspection in Illinois EVERY TIME YOU MOVED HIVES FROM ONE > COUNTY TO ANOTHER. In TN, even moving to next door (a new address) technically would require inspection w/in a specified time period (but, not each time). All bees being sold must be inspected first. Of course, there is apparently little penalty in the law -- one commercial beekeeper imported hive beetle to south-east corner of state, had it verified by (previous) state apiarist, refused to treat, moved it to north-west corner of state (where is spread to many counties and two other states, as well as advancing up east end of state, then spread to mountain areas by those after sourwood). Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:56:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Patrick Larsen Subject: US thymol and eucalyptus oil tolerances (or the lack thereof) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" FYI, quoted below from: EPA Pesticide Program Update from EPA's Office of Pesticide Programs 06/09/03 http://www.epa.gov/pesticides IN THIS UPDATE: PESTICIDE FEDERAL REGISTER ITEMS FOR THE WEEK OF JUNE 2-6, 2003 Title: Exemptions from the Requirement of a Tolerance for Thymol and Eucalyptus Oil on Honey and Honeycomb Date of publication: June 6, 2003 Citation: Volume 68, Number 109, Pages 33876-33882 http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/2003/June/Day-06/ p14198.htm Purpose: This regulation establishes time-limited exemptions from the requirement of a tolerance for residues of thymol and eucalyptus oil on honey and honeycomb. This action is in response to EPA's granting of an emergency exemption under section 18 of the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) authorizing use of these pesticides in beehives. This regulation eliminates the need to establish a maximum permissible level for residues of thymol and eucalyptus oil in or on honey and honeycomb. These time- limited exemptions from the requirement of a tolerance for residues of the thymol and eucalyptus oil will expire and are revoked on June 30, 2005. Chemical(s): Thymol and Eucalyptus Oil Comments: This regulation is effective June 6, 2003. Objections and requests for hearings, identified by docket ID number OPP-2003-0002, must be received on or before August 5, 2003. Contact: Barbara Madden, Registration Division (7505C), telephone number: (703) 305-6463; e-mail address: madden.barbara@epa.gov.* ___________________ Patrick L. Larsen Project Geoscientist Stone Environmental, Inc. Montpelier, VT USA www.stone-env.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:04:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A10186D0@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:00 PM 6/9/03 -0400, you wrote: > > Are 9 frames better than 10 in this regard ? My intuition tells me the >bees would draw > > out the 9 frames deeper to re-establish the bee space. Yes they will build out deeper. I've found it rarely to be help in the long run myself. I do ten to run 9 frames as frames get older though, not because of rolling, but because 10 frames can be very difficult to get into the box as propolis builds up on the edges of the frame. 10 new frames in a box is a very loose fit, but 10 old frames can be very tight. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:07:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are 9 frames better than 10 in this regard ? This is a question that has been asked just about every year here on BEE-L. As with many other questions, there is no right answer. Even in the same operation, in the same district, a specific spacing method may work better for one purpose, but be less suited for another. We used both spacings for years, and never could see a clear advantage to one over the other. > My intuition tells me the bees would draw out the 9 frames deeper to re-establish the bee space. Well, bee space has its places. Between comb faces, it may or may not apply. How thick the bees make -- and keep -- the combs depends on many factors. Humans have learned to use bee space to design hives that are neat, tidy and easily disassembled by humans -- for human purposes -- but IMO, bees do better when everything is glued up and waxed together. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:11:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: bee inspectors Lloyd Spear said: > 2. Bee inspectors are not public health officials, or anything > remotely similar. Au contraire! At least in Virginia. The Code of Virginia is very clear on the point. 3.1-610.5. Inspections; measures to be taken for eradication or control of disease. The Commissioner or his assistants shall examine or inspect the bees in this Commonwealth whenever they are suspected of being infected with American foulbrood disease or other contagious disease of bees, and shall inspect bees to be sold or to be transported interstate when requested. If bees are found infected with American foulbrood or other contagious disease of bees, the State Apiarist shall cause suitable measures to be taken for the eradication or control of such disease. Whenever the owner of such diseased bees fails or refuses to take such steps as may be prescribed by the State Apiarist to eradicate or control the disease, the State Apiarist shall destroy or treat or cause such bees, together with the hives and honey, to be destroyed or treated in such manner as he may deem best. (Code 1950, §§ 3-487, 3-490, 3.1-592, 3.1-595; 1966, c. 702; 1972, c. 499.) So, "private property rights" don't even enter into the equation. No permission or advance notice is required, and the State Apiarist and his inspectors ARE "public health officials", able to refuse entry to a beekeeper with diseased (or infested) hives, quarantine an area, and otherwise "eradicate or control the disease" "in such manner as he may deem best". In Virginia, our State Apiarist is also the "Endangered Species Coordinator", which I view as both semi-redundant, and also very appropriate in a twisted-humor sort of way. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made the mistake of running a couple of hives with 9-frame brood boxes last year. I'll never do it again. I did this to counter the heavy propolis that my Russians were depositing; it only made things worse all around. The combs are fatter, so they don't interchange well with a proper 10 frame hive, and even more propolis was deposited on the frame rubs, as well as a great deal more burr/cross comb, making manipulations even more time consuming. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:28:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: bee inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> 2. Bee inspectors are not public health officials, or anything remotely similar. > Au contraire! At least in Virginia. The Code of Virginia is very clear on the point. Hmmm. Well, I was a bee inspector, and when I was, I was not -- AFAIK -- a public health official, although, I suppose I was an animal health official. There is a distinction, I think, and maybe some of the considerable number of State and Provincial Apiarists who read this list and hire and fire bee inspectors may want to weigh in here. Or -- come to think of it -- maybe not. At any rate, human health concerns were not the slightest part of my mandate at the time. AFAIK, there is usually a considerable distinction between 'animal health', and 'public health' inspection and enforcement, although there is an overlap. This overlap occurs where animals may exhibit serious diseases which can also affect humans. Undulant fever, tuberculosis, and, oh yes -- almost forgot -- BSE, are such diseases. On the other hand, insect diseases like AFB, nosema, chalkbrood, etc. are not shared with humans, and are not regarded with quite the same sense of urgency. Nonetheless, in Alberta, bee inspection services do have the full force of law behind them, and -- if you believe the letter of the law as written -- some draconian powers. Nonetheless, in action, enforcement is somewhat like foreclosure on a mortgage. If you believe literally the wording of your mortgage papers, you'll think that the banker can walk in at any moment if you make the tiniest slip, and throw you and your possessions onto the street without a second chance, or any recourse. In the real world, that isn't going to happen -- not here anyhow. There are too many other legal forces arrayed against such precipitous action, and usually the process leading to eventual eviction is long, and full of protections for both parties. I suspect the exact status of bee inspectors varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and that in most places bee inspection has little, if anything, to do with public health. The advent of AHB and the panic that has accompanied it in some places may have changed this locally, and I'd be interested to hear some of the subtleties in local Bee Acts. As Dee said, they abolished bee inspectors in Arizona. In other places, they have chosen to keep a few inspectors and legal powers for use in emergencies, but in some others, bee inspection personel and their viewpoints dominate beekeepers. I wonder into what category New York falls? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com Diary of a former beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A10186D0@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Running 9 frames will buy you room to move initially, but eventually the >bees will build fatter combs, propolize the space between the end bars, and >built more burr comb. Then you're back to the original problem; frames that >are too tight with no room to move. The real trick here is to push your >frames tightly back together after examining the hive. If you leave gaps, >the bees will fill it in. > >Aaron Morris If you run 9 combs, don't space them evenly to fill the hive body. If you do, then they will become as Aaron states. Rather, push them together toward the middle, leaving extra space at the outsides. The combs will be spaced properly, and the first comb can be easily removed by moving over an outside comb. The two outside spaces will get burr comb built in them, but so what. They are the least used combs anyway. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When using fishin' line to "wire" frames, does one still need to insert those annoying little eyelets? thanks, Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:49:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Up for grabs on ebay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Someone was looking for a child's beesuit a while back. (Beware the line wrap): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2537158172&category=11751 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:34:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean Jean Menier Subject: Re: To the chestnet pollinators of the world... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi to all, May I had to the discussion about chestnut tree production of honey, that this species is supposed to produce as much as 600 kilograms of honey per hectare (100 m x 100 m). Chestnut trees grow mostly on acid soils. Sincerely, Jean J. Menier, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:20:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I believe nine frames is great for a hobbiest like myself. I space my nine frame leaving a bit of extra space to one side. The space acts much as Aaron described the follower board. The first frame slides over a bit and is removed without rolling. The first frame is left out of the hive and is replaced in the ninth place. The next inspection reverses it back to the first position. I suspect if you only check your hives a couple times per season the space would get filled up. With weekly (about) inspections it remains clear with little or no burr removal. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK >Well, it's not so much the thickness of the frames as it it the burr comb >the bees build between the frames at the top bars. That is the place where >bees tend to get rolled, as the comb passes the burr as Dave Green >described. That is why one needs to cut the burr comb from bot sides of the >first frame being removed, plus the facing sides of the adjacent frames. >Once the first frame is removed, the remaining frames can be slid into the >vacant space before the are taken out for examination. > >Running 9 frames will buy you room to move initially, but eventually the >bees will build fatter combs, propolize the space between the end bars, and >built more burr comb. Then you're back to the original problem; frames that >are too tight with no room to move. The real trick here is to push your >frames tightly back together after examining the hive. If you leave gaps, >the bees will fill it in. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:36:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a piece of equipment called a follower board. ... > The follower Board comes out first, which gives you room > to slide the first frame over before lifting it out (hence no bees > are rolled). A trick I used often was to use a frame of plastic foundation on the outside of a ten-frame arrangement when making up new brood chambers. Pierco one-piece are particularly good in this position, since they are tough and will stay in good condition for years, whether drawn or not. Bees usually prefer to work vertically, if they are given lots of room in good time, and will not usually draw the outside frame until they are crowded due to neglect or being extra-strong. The foundation frame is lightweight and easy to pull, and it is there in case you need a sheet of foundation to loosen up a brood chamber or some other such purpose. Using this method, the benefits of a follower board are achieved without having and extra piece of equipment, and foundation is always available in the yards. The biggest problem in beekeeping -- IMO, the way we currently practice it -- is that there are too many moving parts. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Pollination hive standards, again. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:08:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith & all > When using fishin' line to "wire" frames, does one still > need to insert those annoying little eyelets? I personally do not use eyelets, but when I first changed over to nylon I tried several different thicknesses to establish what would cut into the wood and what would not. My 0.45 mm nylon cuts into the wood only a very small amount... I use 1.5 mm holes and if I were making the drilling jig over again I would use 1 mm or even 0.8 mm. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/framedrilljig.html Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: cross resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, >I think my post commented on an understanding I have that when V.D. becomes >resistant to fluvalinate it is only a very short step to resistance to >amitraz. (If I didn't say that, that is what I meant to say.) > >What say you, Zachary? Lloyd, This is quite possible, but perhaps not because the two chemicals are in the same class (they are not), but because of generalized increase of detoxification enzymes available (see my post today re three scenarios). One of them is that amitraz might have been used for a quite awhile in US. Zachary Huang One thing I have not seen mentioned here is that amitraz is a synergist for pyrethiods. This clearly suggests that there is an interaction between the two classes and pyrethoid resistance very likely includes at least partial resistance to amitraz. This would explain the appearance of amitraz resistance along with the spread of pyrethoid resistance in North America and Europe. Another thing I have not seem much in this discussion is that one cannot easily switch away from a treatment that bioaccomulates in the beeswax so in most cases the mites are being exposed to fluvalinate and coumaphos at the same time - lower levels of fluvalinate but it is still there in the hive environment to continue to select for resistance. This is a clear advantage of treatments that don't accomulate in the wax - there is a time between treatments that the mite population is not being exposed to the treatment. Yes this allows the mite population to rebound more quickly but it also greatly reduces the selection for resistance thereby slowing the appearance of resistance. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: bee inspectors in New York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like Allen, at one time I was a bee inspector...in NYS. NYS inspectors are certainly not public health officials, and I doubt they are anywhere. Animal health inspectors, certainly. As far as AFB is concerned, bee inspectors have the full force of NYS law behind them, but it is clear that there are virtually no circumstances when a sheriff or similar enforcement official would be called. NYS inspectors routinely 'pass' frames and hives with lots of scale. The attitude is that if the disease is not in the vegetive stage, it isn't there! Further, it is well recognized that in commercial situations few yards are seen without scale. Clearly NYS inspectors are educating the hobbyists, and burning hives. Is it worth the money for the control achieved? I doubt it. I'd feel different if every frame with scale had to be destroyed...but then there would be far fewer commercial beekeepers in NYS. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: bee inspectors > AFAIK, there is usually a considerable distinction between 'animal > health', and 'public health' inspection and enforcement, although there > is an overlap. This overlap occurs where animals may exhibit serious > diseases which can also affect humans. Three words - "Hoof And Mouth" While "Foot IN Mouth" is common in humans, "Hoof and Mouth" poses no risk to humans. But the approach to controlling this disease is draconian. Ask a beekeeper from the UK about it. But, yeah - no one really gives a hoot about bees, so except for the media-generated frenzy over AHB, everyone has a very laid-back approach to "bee diseases". This apparently includes most of the first line of defense, or more accurately, the ONLY line of defense. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: bee inspections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison Wrote - I did voice my disproval to the state bee inspector of Illinois at a Illinois state bee meeting I attended about wanting to have the beekeeper get a permit & inspection in Illinois EVERY TIME YOU MOVED HIVES FROM ONE COUNTY TO ANOTHER. -------------------- Being from Illinois, I have known no other system. We have 102 counties and only a half dozen bee inspectors - part-time bee inspectors. We could keep them quite busy. We have only a few migratory beekeepers, but they should, I guess, have their bees inspected every time they move to a new orchard in a different county. I don't know if they do that. I am curious. Do any other states require inspection to move bees intra-state? Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:49:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: bee inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >>AFAIK, there is usually a considerable distinction between 'animal >>health', and 'public health' inspection and enforcement, although there >>is an overlap. This overlap occurs where animals may exhibit serious >>diseases which can also affect humans. >> >> > >Three words - "Hoof And Mouth" > >While "Foot IN Mouth" is common in humans, >"Hoof and Mouth" poses no risk to humans. > There is always these little gems: TB, Salmonella, herpes B, Anthrax, Chlamydiosis, Giardia, Brucellosis, Rabies, Toxoplasma etc - if you are looking for true zoonoses. Some of the above have regulatory significance and would make any animal health professional a public health professional, others do not. 10 points if you can guess which are. Keep also in mind that inappropriate use of miticides and antibiotics in honeybees could easliy be considered a public health concern. >This apparently includes most of the first line of defense, >or more accurately, the ONLY line of defense. > One must also consider that while many "animal health" issues are not "public health" (e.g. hoof and mouth) issues they are often significant in an economic sense, and can have devastating sequallae. Spreading hive beetles would have a serious economic impact, though little public health significance unless one were to argue that misapplication of checkmite could result in honey of significant public helath concern. One might argue that if they produced more tangable benefits one might overlook the incenvenience of a surprise visit. Of course what was initially posted about was just plain incompetance - and that is a separate issue from surprise inspections. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:49:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Dave, to you on the drilling part: Do you people ever use those metal inserts that can be pressed or hit down in the drilled holes, so that the wire does not damage the holes in the long run? I was kindly given some old Svea frames (300x300mm) so that I would only have to rewire them and could start to use them almost directly, but I found out that on many of the frames the wires had in the past been pulled all-the-way though the wood, right to the neighbouring hole! This wouldn't have happened if these little extra metal inserts (or what they may be called your end of the bath-tub) had been used. Just wondering... Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:44:58 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: bee inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While "Foot IN Mouth" is common in humans, > "Hoof and Mouth" poses no risk to humans. Not quite right. There are cases of humans getting foot and mouth. However, they are not put down. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] Looking at the problem with a gestalt view, the fear is "rolling" or crushing bees and/or queens. The biggest factor is that frames just do not slide back and forth very easily due to (mostly) propolized frame ears/lugs and (to a much lesser extent) burr comb. I "paint" or "dip" my frame ears in wax or paraffin, and I "paint" the thin sheet metal angle "frame rests" (in the case of dedicated brood chambers) or the base of a Stroller spacer (the part that remains when you pop off the 9-frame spacer) in the case of ad-hoc use of what was a honey super for a brood chamber. This works well. The bees simply do not propolize a waxed surface. Hives are a joy to work when the frames can be nudged apart with a pinky, and the hive tool can stay in your pocket. Offhand, I'd guess I can inspect every frame in a hive in less than in half the time due to this. I have yet to need to "repaint" a frame ear with wax while it was in the hive, but I melt down brood frames on a rotational schedule of 5 or 6 years. As for me, 10 frames for brood, 9 for honey supers, no follower boards, and no complaints. jim (Who observes that preserving bee space is a big time saver. This is the "Bee Space-Time Continuum".) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:12:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron & All > Do you people ever use those metal inserts that > can be pressed or hit down in the drilled holes, The ability of the wire to cut into the wood or pull all the way through is a function of wire thickness, tension in the wire and the type and condition of the wood. Basswood (lime, linden?) is a common wood used in making frames, which is light and soft and so in most cases will require the holes to be re-enforced by small flanged tubular eyelets. Old frames can also be soft and require such support. When I made beekeeping equipment for a living I used to use various pine and spruce type woods for making frame parts. These are slightly heavier, but are harder and retain their strength well over a long period of years. I found that with the tension and wire I was using the cutting was minor and not worth the effort of using eyelets, others with different parameters may well come to a different conclusion. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong' it depends on the conditions that prevail. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:25:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: bee inspectors in New York In-Reply-To: <002f01c32f54$d0678770$29256118@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >NYS inspectors routinely 'pass' frames and hives with lots of scale. The >attitude is that if the disease is not in the vegetive stage, it isn't >there! Further, it is well recognized that in commercial situations few >yards are seen without scale. > >Lloyd Spear Really, Lloyd? I have 22 yards in NYS. I'll give you $100 for every yard of mine in which you find scale. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee inspectors in New York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Clearly NYS inspectors are educating the hobbyists, and burning hives. Is > it worth the money for the control achieved? I doubt it. I'd feel > different if every frame with scale had to be destroyed...but then there > would be far fewer commercial beekeepers in NYS. In Maine, AFB hives normally are burned, and that includes commercial beekeepers. (We once had a gas chamber for sterilization, but the EPA ended that). We have about 60,000 hives come into the State for blueberry pollination. They run about 3-6% AFB in any given year and I am sure that burning is the main reason AFB is under control. The reason for burning is fairly obvious. You have a mix of commercial pollinators in sometimes close proximity to each other on the blueberry barrens. The possibility of cross contamination is great. So it makes sense to burn. There may be some grousing but generally the beekeepers take it in stride. If the commercial beekeepers in NY have high levels of AFB and do not burn, it seems to be self evident why they have high levels of AFB. I pity the hobby beekeeper near any of those commercial yards. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:42:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lloyd spear Subject: Terra scale in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to my comments concerning the frequency of scale in frames of commercial beekeepers, Mike replied "Really, Lloyd? I have 22 yards in NYS. I'll give you $100 for every yard of mine in which you find scale." That is wonderful, Mike. Congratulations, and I stand corrected. Do you use terramycin on a prophylactic basis? If you do, and have not had AFB, why do you do so? Because you do not want to see AFB? I do not use Terra., and burn all frames from any hive where I see AFB. And I do see it once or twice a year (once this year). If I used Terra., I would either never see AFB or would only see it rarely, but it would still be there! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB in NYS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said "If the commercial beekeepers in NY have high levels of AFB and do not burn, it seems to be self evident why they have high levels of AFB. I pity the hobby beekeeper near any of those commercial yards." I should be very clear (but I thought I was, previously). I was taught that the presence of scale was NOT a reason to burn. vegetative state was treated differently, and then frames were supposed to be burned and bees killed (but I was present when this was not done 'because it was not widespread and only involved a few cells'). Both myself and two other inspectors were in one yard where I saw scale everywhere, but no active stage. One of the other inspectors had a special title as a 'senior' inspector and his responsibilities included training others. No action was taken nor was AFB reported. This yard was so bad that later that year the beekeepers abandoned it because even though they were treating with Terra., they kept finding active stage AFB...an almost sure sign of resistance. To Bill's point, I subsequently found active AFB in a hobbyist yard about 1.5 miles away, and Beltsville confirmed it as 'resistant. If I remember correctly, we burned three out of six hives owned by the hobbyist! The inspectors tell us that about 6% of hives in NYS have active AFB, and that the percentages are about the same for commercial and hobbyist beekeepers. Bill, are you SURE that the 2%-3% AFB found in Maine includes situations where only scale is seen? Based on what I have seen, I find it hard to believe that the number could be that low if scale only was included and I KNOW that just a few years ago clean certificates were given despite the presence of scale. Could the 2-3% be only active disease? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:09:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Basswood (lime, linden?) is a common wood used in making frames, which is > light and soft and so in most cases will require the holes to be re-enforced > by small flanged tubular eyelets...................................... Oh sorry Dave and the others, I had not noticed that what I called inserts and your eyelets were one and the same thing, I thought that you were talking about something else. What by the way is the main reason that frames are not made of an even harder wood, like beech or oak, their higher weight? Otherwise properly aged beech should in my eyes be very strong and nice for drilling, milling or whatever and wires would not cut in like with the softer woods. Measurements could be kept much more exact and the frames become more sturdy as well. I've seen some very wobbly frames even brand new ones just lately and those were made from pine. The staples used to pin the parts together pulled the wood in so much that cracking just had to happen! The holes drilled for the wiring were a perfect example too of how it should not be done, not centred, not evenly spaced and plenty of splintering at the far end of the holes. In the dark and with my welding goggles on I could have done much better! 75% of the frames that I for example bought (by phone) last week would have been rejected if I had been the manufacturer or supplier or had seen them on the shelf. For the future winter periods it is intended to throw out all those contraptions and make myself frames to a higher standard. Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:37:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB in NYS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Bill, are you SURE that the 2%-3% AFB found in Maine includes situations > where only scale is seen? Based on what I have seen, I find it hard to > believe that the number could be that low if scale only was included and I > KNOW that just a few years ago clean certificates were given despite the > presence of scale. Could the 2-3% be only active disease? Probably active with the commercial bees on the blueberry barrens. When you are looking at that many hives it is the obvious that hits you. Plus, you do have to be looking for scale and it is not always easy to spot. However, if there was scale, knowing the inspector and my experience, his recommendation normally would be to burn (but it might not depending on the owner and level of trust that they would do what is right eventually). Difficult to be a mind reader, even if I did go around with him one day - and he did find AFB and did tell them to burn. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:54:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire In-Reply-To: <001c01c3305d$e8d571a0$ca2865d5@ronmierl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:09 PM 6/11/2003 +0200, you wrote: >What by the way is the main reason that frames are not made of an even >harder wood, >like beech or oak, their higher weight? It may be one factor, but it's not really a big one in my opinion. Depending on species pine can vary a lot (1.88lb per board foot to 3.07lb per board foot). Where as beech is only slightly heavier at 3.34, red oak at 3.38 and white at 3.54. Bigger factors are availability and price. At least here in the US, pine is available in large quantities and is typically cheaper than most hardwoods. Softer woods (at least in my experience) seem to have less splitting when frames are assembled, though grain plays a big part as well. I've personally made frames from oak, pine, maple, walnut and any other scrap wood I've got handy, and don't really notice a big weight difference on a per super basis. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron van Mierlo wrote: > What by the way is the main reason that frames are not made of an even harder wood, > like beech or oak, their higher weight? Otherwise properly aged beech should in my > eyes be very strong and nice for drilling, milling or whatever and wires would not cut in > like with the softer woods. Measurements could be kept much more exact and the frames > become more sturdy as well. Cost is the first reason, both in material and labor. Pine and other softwoods are easy to work and forgiving (think nails- you will have to drill every one of those nail holes unless you are ready for lots of split wood). As you note, weight is a real drawback, with back being the operative word. Plus I would rather have hardwood furniture in my living room and not in the hive. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The biggest problem in beekeeping -- IMO, the way we currently practice > it -- is that there are too many moving parts. When returning to a hive two weeks after a previous inspection, I often notice 'wax braces' that bees built between adjacent combs. It seems bees, frustrated and feeling insecure by seeing their combs easily moved during an inspection/invasion, try to secure the combs to each other and the hive walls in preparation for another inspection/invasion. :) This seems to happen more in more frequently inspected hives. A casual observation. Allen, do you see a way to reduce the number of moving parts in a hive? Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 19:23:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: dance language versus odor In-Reply-To: <00a301c32ff9$c8b56880$8eb92e50@davecush> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those that might be interested, there has been a lively "discussion" on dance language versus the "use of odor alone all along" on the Irish beekeeping list. For whatever reason, a member of the "odor alone" community has chosen that forum to enlighten beekeepers (but not scientists, that has been made clear) on how the dance language theory is all wet (with lots of references to keep the reader busy) and all bee foraging behavior can be explained using odor trail following. Attempts to lure the discussion to the a more scientific forum were ignored. Although joining is required to read the forum, having email sent to you is not. http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping/message/7436 appears to be about the start of the discussion. Karen Oland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:34:33 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Bees ARE Profitable! At $60 for the work of 100 bees, this may be the "most profitable beekeeping operation" for 2003. jim ================================================= Thief uses bees to sting Kmart BY JACK TYNAN The Sedalia (Missouri) Democrat Employees at the Sedalia Kmart were left to fight off a restroom full of bees as a thief made off with about $60 in stolen goods Monday. The Sedalia Police Department received a phone call at 4:18 p.m. from a staff member at the Kmart store, at 1400 S. Limit Ave., who reported that a man had concealed several stolen items while in the men's bathroom. It appears the man then released about 100 bees, apparently small honeybees, in the room and fled the store in the commotion that followed, according to police reports. "I'm sure it was so we'll be more concerned about the bees than about anything else," said store Manager Lancy Ulrich. A customer found the bees and reported them to a staff member, Mrs. Ulrich said. Staff then took insecticides off store shelves and killed the bees. "We just set off a couple (bug) bombs in there and killed them," said Mrs. Ulrich. No other customers were aware of the incident. "We do have associates here who are allergic to bees," said Mrs. Ulrich. "I'm sure if a customer went in there that was allergic to bees it would be a dangerous situation." Staff members suspect the thief made off with $61.48 in stolen merchandise. Because of the confusion, witnesses were unable to offer a detailed description of the suspect, only that he is a white man in his early to mid-20s, police said. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:24:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: fishin line instead of wire/frame material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron & all > What by the way is the main reason that frames are not > made of an even harder wood, > like beech or oak, their higher weight? Weight, cost of material and the need for more re-sharpening of tungsten carbide cutters are the reasons. > Otherwise properly aged beech should in my eyes be > very strong and nice for drilling, milling or whatever and > wires would not cut in like with the softer woods. I agree and I used to make various special frame components from hardwood. My reasons were that in another part of my business I used various hardwoods and the offcuts from this operation were ideal for the crisp machining of complex items that required precision. But making frames of beech or other hardwoods would cost more and the weight penalty when such frames were installed in hives would be considerable. Bear in mind that bees are often shipped by the truck and trailor load. Exactness of measure and tolerance between parts varies considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer. > I've seen some very wobbly frames even brand new ones > just lately and those were made from pine. Seasoning of timber also varies a grat deal from manufacturer to manufacturer and country to country. I am tempted to say that you get what you pay for, but in this case it is not necessarily so that the cheapest is the worst quality or the most expensive is the best. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:58:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] In-Reply-To: <3EE594DE.4050404@gci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >>Well, it's not so much the thickness of the frames as it it the burr comb >>the bees build between the frames at the top bars. But it is about the thickness of the combs. There are two spacing options...worker brood, and honey. The self spacing combs are made to be tight together, and is the correct spacing for worker brood. Honey combs are fatter...naturally. But, what about drone brood? I think drone brood comb is the same thickness as honey comb. So, if you space your worker comb at honey comb spacing, much of it will become droney...which is thicker. The bees begin adding drone at the top bar and bottom bar. This added thickness rolls the bees as the comb is pulled from the broodnest. Maintain good worker comb by spacing them properly. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Terra scale in frames In-Reply-To: <004001c33040$dfea2490$29256118@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Do you >use terramycin on a prophylactic basis? If you do, and have not had AFB, >why do you do so? Because you do not want to see AFB? I used to, but am trying to get away from it. No TM this year. When I did use it, it was only in the spring as a dust. I have never tried to "cure" AFB with drugs. If I find disease...scale included...I burn...period. Over the last four years, I have been attempting to get all my equipment into use. I had several hundred hive bodies of brood comb, that came from the orchard I bought out. So, I rogued out the bad combs, and burnt everything that wasn't in good shape....bottoms, bodies, etc. I have been raising nucs, and overwintering them. When transferred to 10 frame equipment, I used the cleaned up equipment on them solely. That way I knew where the disease might be, and where to look. Sure enough, I found some. So, no untested equipment goes into established colonies. The nucs are easy to check for AFB. The honey producing colonies are checked when honey is taken off....so not to spread disease through supers. Unless I get infected from a neighbor's bees, I think I can control AFB without TM. >I do not use Terra., and burn all frames from any hive where I see AFB. And >I do see it once or twice a year (once this year). If I used Terra., I >would either never see AFB or would only see it rarely, but it would still >be there! If you used dust in the spring...to control infection from outside the yard, and stop before the honey flow...if AFB was present in the hive, wouldn't it show up later in the summer? At that point burning should be the treatment of choice. Would this plan not keep your equipment clean? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 07:58:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, if you space your worker comb at honey comb spacing, much of it will become droney...which is thicker. That's an interetsing theory, but we have not seen this happen in practice, and we would have if it is true. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Nucs, auctions, Beaverlodge... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:22:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] In-Reply-To: <005a01c330ea$c49140c0$3051fea9@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of allen dick > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:59 PM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful > apiary inspectors] > > > > So, if you space your worker comb at honey comb spacing, much of it > will become droney...which is thicker. > > That's an interetsing theory, but we have not seen this happen in > practice, and we would have if it is true. > I have seen this where the queen has got into the super, the comb is drawn out much further at the periphery and is often drone cells, the centre appears 'sunken' as they draw it out less for the worker cells. Ben. (in Hampshire UK) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:21:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB and nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike and I know each other, and could easily carry this thread solely between us. However, I decided to continue through Bee-L as I think the discussion may be of interest to others. If you are bored, let us know (privately or through Bee-L) and we will go private. "I have been raising nucs, and overwintering them." How many frames in your nucs for overwintering? Do you wrap? Stack on top of full hives or on each other? I have had real success in the past, but this year I lost 75% or better of my overwintered nucs so am looking at different methods. "The nucs are easy to check for AFB. The honey producing colonies are checked when honey is taken off....so not to spread disease through supers." How so...easy to check when honey is taken off? Don't you have to look at all brood frames? That would be a huge job for me with just 125 hives, and a much larger job for you! "if AFB was present in the hive, wouldn't it show up later in the summer? At that point burning should be the treatment of choice. Would this plan not keep your equipment clean?" Yes, it would work but I can't imagine checking each brood frame in the fall. My method, not unique to me, is to figure that any AFB infected hive will not make it through the winter in these parts. (Given, if the infection is limited to a few cells it would make it through the first winter, but almost certainly not the second winter.) Any dead hive I check very closely. If I see any signs of AFB, even 1-2 cells of scale, I burn everything. It seems to me that as long as I don't feed honey this will keep me reasonably free of AFB. I will get infected from neighbors, but with no terra. to mask symptoms the disease will manifest itself and I will cull it. I should mention that I do a lot of frame movement while equalizing and making nucs and every frame moved is closely inspected. I haven't found AFB in a frame to be moved in quite some time. Of course, if the frame were full of honey I wouldn't see any scale. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:24:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: bee inspectors in New York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> NYS inspectors routinely 'pass' frames and hives with lots of scale. >> The attitude is that if the disease is not in the vegetive stage, it >> isn't there! Further, it is well recognized that in commercial >> situations few yards are seen without scale. Well, this is a new one on me. I've been thinking, and I can't imagine what the rationale behind such "inspections" could possibly be, or why, after finding scale, anyone would leave frames containing scale in a hive. In the presence of scale , even highly hygienic bees cannot keep the disease down with any certainty, and even when they are able to control it, the colonies are losing brood and other resources to the disease. Using drugs to prevent breakdown can be successful to an extent, but, due to many factors, control is not completely consistent. In the opinion of most of us who have considered the matter, using drugs in the presence of scale on a long-term basis amounts to deliberate abuse of antibiotics. Certifying hives with scale in them as 'disease free', only guarantees a long and secure carreer for inspection staff and continued losses for current and future beekeepers. What are these people thinking? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:13:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: bee inspectors in New York Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Allen wrote in response to reports of inspectors "passing" colonies with AFB scale in part: "In the presence of scale , even highly hygienic bees cannot keep the disease down with any certainty, and even when they are able to control it, the colonies are losing brood and other resources to the disease. Using drugs to prevent breakdown can be successful to an extent, but, due to many factors, control is not completely consistent. In the opinion of most of us who have considered the matter, using drugs in the presence of scale on a long-term basis amounts to deliberate abuse of antibiotics. Certifying hives with scale in them as 'disease free', only guarantees a long and secure carreer for inspection staff and continued losses for current and future beekeepers." Allen pretty much hit it on the head here. One other thing it will result in is the loss of credibility of the inspection service of that state. In MN scale is counted as AFB and if present beekeepers are instructed to destroy the scale and treat with antibiotics if they want to try to save the colony. They also have the option to shake out the bees onto foundation and feed along with treatment as this almost always breaks the chain for infection in the colony. Active AFB without scale can be treated but to successfully treat colonies with scale the scale combs must be removed first. AFB rates in MN are running somewhat lower than in NY and even ME. Treatment with antibiotics is done but it has to be done correctly to effectively deal with the disease and part of that is to get rid of the scale. And yes if done right this can result in successful treatment and colonies that do not breakdown when antibiotic treatment is stopped. Beekeepers and inspectors for that matter need to know the tools available and how to use them properly to deal effectively with a disease problem. This is a very interesting thread to me and a discussion worth having since we are questioning how we do things and how to use the tools available to us in the best manner. In North America the reality is that antibiotics are often used but they need to be used correctly to work effectively. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:19:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB scale and inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was pleased to have Blane report so clearly on the procedures in MN. He is also reporting an enlightened approach to colonies that are seen with the disease. Part of the problem might be that in NYS the only approved methods of treatment are burning or burying. We have an Advisory Council in NYS that periodically meets with the Director and the head inspector to review matters relating to the Honeybee Inspection Program. The next meeting is in a few weeks and yesterday I asked that a member bring up the subjects of (1) not certifying (for interstate movement) 'disease free' if scale is present and (2) burning or burying if scale is present. I was told that this is impossible as it would put the commercial guys out of business in the state! So my contact, a hobbyist, will not even bring up the subject. (He has been on the Council since it was formed many years ago.) I don't know that there is any way this can get fixed in NYS. "All" (100%) of the Senior Inspectors (we have 16 inspectors during the summer, including 4 Seniors) are commercial migratory beekeepers. The only practical way I can think of that would fix this would be some state not accepting the NYS certificates because of finding scale in certified hives. Maine would be a prime candidate for that state, but they must have found it and are still accepting NYS certificates. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:54:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: AFB scale and inspection In-Reply-To: <00fe01c33106$d8d4dee0$29256118@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 Jun 2003 at 13:19, Lloyd Spear wrote: > The next meeting is in a few weeks and yesterday I asked that > a > member bring up the subjects of (1) not certifying (for interstate > movement) > 'disease free' if scale is present and (2) burning or burying if scale > is > present. > > I was told that this is impossible as it would put the commercial guys > out > of business in the state! So my contact, a hobbyist, will not even bring > up > the subject. (He has been on the Council since it was formed many years > ago.) I don't know that there is any way this can get fixed in NYS. > "All" > (100%) of the Senior Inspectors (we have 16 inspectors during the > summer, > including 4 Seniors) are commercial migratory beekeepers. This is getting silly. The more I read your accusations, the more incredulous I get, Lloyd. . I think you are getting way out on a limb, in believing someone with an axe to grind against migratory beekeepers. Call me a big skeptic about this being truly a policy. I KNOW these inspector/migratory beekeepers, and there is NO WAY they are going to leave scale in their own operations. Those I know don't even try to save the boxes. When infection (including scale) is found, the entire hive is brought in and chucked into the burn barrel. The migratory beekeepers I know have extremely low infection rates. I have worked with them, fed or checked their bees for them on occasion, and I know whereof I speak. I have known some in the past that were quite careless, but they are out of business. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:55:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire/frame material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > Weight, cost of material and the need for more re-sharpening of tungsten > carbide cutters are the reasons. In my case the extra weight of frames made from harder wood poses no problems, since the hive (hives soon) will always be stationary and the total number of hives and frames low, but I see to that it can become a real point for some. > I am tempted to say that you get what you pay for, but in this case it is........ Yes Dave you could have been right about the money - quality relationship of the frames that I bought, had it not been so that there were no alternatives. Firstly because I had to get frames quickly since a beekeeper could be on the doorstep any minute with a swarm for my other hive that was still frameless and secondly because those frames were the only quality offered by the supplier and nothing in print or pictures in the catalogue suggested something other than just a good quality and workmanship. I was just unlucky! Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:16:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: dance language versus odor Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Karen Oland wrote (in part): >For those that might be interested, there has been a lively "discussion" on >dance language versus the "use of odor alone all along" on the Irish >beekeeping list. *********** Karen also seemed to suggest that it would be nice if someone in the scientific community got involved, an input I believe I can provide. Perhaps someone on this list can pass my input on to the Irish beekeeping list. First, my qualifications. I have worked with honey bees since the 1940s in commercial beekeeping, as a hobby, and in scientific experimentation. I was the first (1957) to hear and analyze sounds made by dancing bees and completed my doctoral dissertation on that topic -- working with the firm belief that bee "language" was fact, "discovered" or "proved" by the work of von Frisch. Second, some early and important history. Unbeknownst to me, in the late 1930s and early 1940s von Frisch and Russian researchers had successfully recruited bees to crops by the use of odor alone increasing crop yield dramatically. Von Frisch published papers on that subject in 1937, 1943, and 1944, but one would be hard pressed to find any mention of those results in publications by bee language advocates this past half century. Those papers seemed to have largely disappeared from consideration immediately after von Frisch proposed the waggle dance hypothesis. In fact, neither the 1937 nor the 1944 references appear in the official list of his publications after he died. Third, clouds on the horizon. In the 1960s, while trying to "prove" that bee language was by the use of sound signals (not good scientific protocol) and not by reading information obtained from the sloppy dance maneuver in the darkness of the hive, our experimental results repeatedly brought out the overriding importance of odor (and only odor) during recruitment. We managed to get the results of our double controlled and strong inference design experiments into print but then faced incredible hostility and ostracism from the scientific community for "presumably challenging the findings of a great biologist," as one person wrote. Fourth, vindication. It now appears that we have been vindicated by nothing other than by the early writings of von Frisch himself. In the late 1980s R. Rosin came across the 1937 von Frisch publication in the NY public library. The journal BEE WORLD republished it at my urging in 1993, as follows: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/bw1993 Recently, I obtained a translation of his 1943 paper and found that von Frisch remained quite adamant at that time that the "language" of bees was odor and solely odor. One can find excerpts of his paper at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943 In other words, what we had stumbled onto during the 1960s, von Frisch had already known back in the late 1930s and early 1940s. The use of odor alone suffices to explain honey bee recruitment to food sources. Thanks to Barry Birkey and to the editors of the JOURNAL OF INSECT BEHAVIOR, one can now find a summary of the problem at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002 All of that information, though, fails to alter the mind set of bee language advocates in the controversy. Only recently have some of those scientists even grudgingly admitted that odor might be the "overriding" factor in honey bee recruitment to food sources -- but then hedge and hang onto the language hypothesis. As one person recently wrote, "I wish someone would openly admit that the dance information just seems to give honey bees an edge, it's not the main tool in finding the stuff." Many thanks to Karen for opening the question. Let's hope my input proves useful to some on this list and that someone forwards it to the Irish beekeeping list. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:18:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: dance language versus odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Professor Wenner quoted his paper's URL as: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002 I find that this opens easier: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm One of the references is to my paper at: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html Julian O'Dea Canberra, Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB scale and inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > The only practical way I can think of that would fix this would be some > state not accepting the NYS certificates because of finding scale in > certified hives. Maine would be a prime candidate for that state, but they > must have found it and are still accepting NYS certificates. Or they did not find any AFB scale, hence there either is no problem or the hives are healthy and no AFB symptoms are present even with scale. My guess is the former. Also, I do not know how many colonies come from NY. If any at all they are in the low numbers compared to the South. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: dance language versus odor To completely mangle Bob Seger: "Against the wind... They don't forage against the wind. They are tall and strong but they don't forage against the wind." jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:40:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daiell Dempsey Subject: Re: Terra scale in frames In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030612062711.00b43b10@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Michael Palmer wrote: > > >I do not use Terra., and burn all frames from any > hive where I see AFB. How do you treat all plastic frframesPiPierco? GD __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:29:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: 9 vs. 10 frames in brood chamber [was: pitiful apiary inspectors] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mike, > So, if you space your worker comb > at honey comb spacing, much of it will become droney...which is thicker. > The bees begin adding drone at the top bar and bottom bar. This added > thickness rolls the bees as the comb is pulled from the broodnest. > Maintain good worker comb by spacing them properly. Not so in my experience. The brood area is all standard thickness regardless of spacing. Yes, drone brood is thicker, but not as thick as a nine space honey comb. I do not have any excessive drone comb, and did not see any increase when I went from ten frames to nine throughout the colony. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:18:09 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Terra scale in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to the question posed by Daiell: How do you treat all plastic frames? Their use has been advocated many many times. They appear to have many advantages when compared with "traditional" frames. But what I would like to get an indication on (and have asked several times - with no resulting correspondence), is what happens to them when they have to be withdrawn from service? Are we as a collective just ignoring this? The same question may be posed about the plastic strips placed in the hives - where do they end up? Are they dumped next to the beer bottles in the bushes in the apiaries! Wondering never ceases, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Terra scale in frames In-Reply-To: <20030613044032.84077.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >How do you treat all plastic frframesPiPierco? > >GD Plastic burns. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:10:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: AFB scale and inspection In-Reply-To: <3EE91FC4.4010407@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Also, I do not know how many colonies come from NY. If any at all they >are in the low numbers compared to the South. > >Bill Truesdell I think they mostly go the other way. From south to Maine for Blueberries, and on to NY for the honey flow. Back south after goldenrod. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: frame management There is a simple thing which stops frame wire from cutting into the wood, very popular between beekeepers in my country. Just drop or line of wood glue near the holes on frames - at the line frame wire would pass. Very fast operation and not so labor intensive, done when frames are stacked after making holes. Aleksandar, Macedonia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Burning frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "How do you treat all plastic frframesPiPierco?" I burn everything. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee inspectors in New York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > AFB rates in MN are running somewhat lower than in NY and even ME. Most of the data from Maine includes the 60,000 hives from out of state, so we are probably a good reflection of the state of commercial migratory pollinators compared to in-state beekeepers. Best guess is some 4-600 or so beekeepers in the entire State. Might be more or less since not all register their bees and many of the old timers are out of the business. You can count the number of in-State large, commercial operations on one hand and have fingers left over. In fact, several "home based" Maine operations actually are more Florida than Maine since they move the bees south to overwinter and come up with the rest of the blueberry pollinators. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:05:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Terra scale in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: >> >> How do you treat all plastic frframesPiPierco? >> >> GD > > Plastic burns. And, depending on the plastic, fumes can be fairly toxic. The leftover is not always ash but a nice sludge that still has to be disposed of. Plastic is one of the easier things to recycle (depending on the plastic). I do not know if the type of plastic is stamped on the frames, but if it is then you can recycle it properly. If not then Pierco should be able to provide recycling instructions. Bill Truesdell (who thinks the moderators were looking for the obvious response so let this one by) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:14:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (244A3C18) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The same question may be posed about the plastic strips > placed in the hives - where do they end up? > > Are they dumped next to the beer bottles in the bushes in the > apiaries! No, in New York the beer bottles are worth a nickel each! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:24:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lloyd spear Subject: Migratory beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Also, I do not know how many colonies come from NY. If any at all they >are in the low numbers compared to the South." I think one would find that most only winter in the south and their home base is in the Northeast. Many, but not all, pollinate apples in the Hudson Valley of NYS before heading north to blueberries. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Scale in hives and inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before I get accused of anything further, let me reiterate: 1. I have personally seen considerable scale in hives belong to commercial beekeepers and was told "we can't quarantine/burn all hives with scale or we would put commercial beekeepers out of business". 2. I do not have sufficient exposure to large numbers of commercial beekeepers to let me form an opinion of whether the preceding quote is accurate. However, based on the exposure I do have I lean toward thinking it is accurate. 3. Dr. H. Shiminuki was long the USDA's resident expert on AFB, and at one time or another received just about every award provided for his contributions to American beekeeping. In the year or two immediately before his retirement he gave many talks urging beekeepers to try to stop using terra. prophylactically, in order to delay the onset of resistance for as long as possible. He said that for most operations scale was so widespread that it was impossible to stop using terra. prophylactically without causing widespread outbreaks of the actual disease. 4. Why do almost all commercial operations still use terra. prophylactically? Because they are afraid of being infected by 'someone else'? Get real...the 'someone else' is themselves! By using terra. prophylactically the disease has been masked (not cured) but is still widespread. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Scale in hives and inspection In-Reply-To: <003b01c331a6$58edaf90$29256118@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 13 Jun 2003 at 8:21, Lloyd Spear wrote: > Why do almost all commercial operations still use terra. > prophylactically? Because they are afraid of being infected by 'someone > else'? Get real...the 'someone else' is themselves! By using terra. > prophylactically the disease has been masked (not cured) but is still > widespread. When did you see scale in a commercial operation? Betcha it was a few years back. Is the outfit still in business? I could easily name a dozen outfits that HAD scale that they overrode with sulfa and terra in the past. But thy aren't in business today. And I know a couple that finally realized that to survive, they must burn scale, so they did...and they survived. I AM real, Lloyd. I'm also up-to-date. To find scale in a current migratory operation would be the exception. Go visit some of the migratories TODAY, Lloyd. >Before I get accused of anything further, let me reiterate: You were the one making accusations, Lloyd. I hate that smaller beekeepers find migratories a convenient target. And many of them are so busy that they don't have time to go to a lot of bee meetings, so they don't have much defense against the nonsense that is thrown around. I personally know many of the US east coast migratories and they are among the best beekeepers in the world. -And with the cleanest operations. Most of them don't like the migratory life, but find that it is necessary to make their beekeeping a viable business. Many of them bend over backwards to help hobby beekeepers, and do all they can to keep from stepping on other beekeepers' toes, yet every problem beekeeping has, somehow winds up being the fault of the migratories. >1. I have personally seen considerable scale in hives belong to >commercial beekeepers and was told "we can't quarantine/burn all >hives with scale or we would put commercial beekeepers out of >business". >2. I do not have sufficient exposure to large numbers of >commercial beekeepers to let me form an opinion of whether the >preceding quote is accurate. So why did you make the ridiculous accusation? Let's stop this. We all need each other. Dave Green, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:29:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Moderation Misunderstood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bill Truesdell (who thinks the moderators were looking for the obvious response so let this one by) Just to set the record straight, the moderators do not filter posts for content, opinion, or political correctness. Posts containing bad formatting, excessive quotes, bad manners, unsustantiated attributions, and redundancy. Off-topic articles are not normally approved, either, but asking reasonable -- even provocative -- questions and/or challenging accepted wisdom is not reason for rejection. Members are encouraged to read the guidelines at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L/ for a clearer understanding. Moderation is a meta-topic, and as such is normally off-topic on the list. Emails to the list address mentioning moderation are normally considered to be directed to the moderators, not the list, and as such are dealt with off-list, or ignored, as appropriate. The above quoted mention of moderation is being treated as an exception, since the quote illustrates a common misconception that needs to be addressed. There are other reasons than rejection for posts not appearing on BEE-L, the most common being misdirected or lost email (very common these days) or use of excessive quotes. If your post fails to make the list, check your formatting and resubmit. Don't just automatically assume that apparent rejection was due to your point of view. The moderators :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - Bee recruitment bu odor In-Reply-To: <200306130400.h5D4023U021167@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 6/12/03 23:00, Adrian via Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: > In other words, what we had stumbled onto during the 1960s, von > Frisch had already known back in the late 1930s and early 1940s. The > use of odor alone suffices to explain honey bee recruitment to food > sources. Is this the method investigators have been using to utilize honey bees to sniff out explosive material (i.e. land mines) in military situations? Mike Stoops 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:28:05 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Thailand Honey A few questions about the "quote" Allen Dick got. Any number can play. 1) If one makes honey sticks with honey from Thailand, can one legally advertise them as "Thai Sticks"? Sounds like a growth market to me. 2) Am I mistaken, or are these "detection limits" just a tad high for someone claiming to use ELISA? > Chloramphenicol Detection Limit 0.025mg/kg. > Sulfaquinoxaline Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg. > Sulfamethazine Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg. > Tetracycline Detection Limit 4.00mg/kg. > Oxytetracycline Detection Limit 3.00mg/kg 3) Is everyone just going to ignore this kind of thing, and hope it wanders off? > Chlortetracycline Test result 3.42mg/kg jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:25:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Land mine location In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mike Stoops asked: > > In other words, what [Wenner's group] had stumbled onto during >the 1960s, von Frisch had already known back in the late 1930s and >early 1940s. The > > use of odor alone suffices to explain honey bee recruitment to food >> sources. > >Is this the method investigators have been using to utilize honey bees to >sniff out explosive material (i.e. land mines) in military situations? That is correct. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:19:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Odor-search addendum Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Since my yesterday's posting on the topic of the importance of odor by searching bees, R. Rosin brought to my attention some points of clarification: 1) I failed to mention a 186 page publication by von Frisch on the recruitment of honey bees to food sources: (1923, Ueber die "Sprache" der Bienen). 2) The 1937 article in English by von Frisch first appeared in SCIENCE PROGRESS, based upon a talk he had given at the University of London. Rosin came across a republication of that article in the 1938 Annual Report of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution (published in 939). 3) Rosin stumbled onto that article at the New York University library, not at the New York public library, as posted in my last message. 4) Millions have been spent this past half century on studies of the waggle dance maneuver without, it seems to me, any real benefit to beekeepers. Lately, by contrast, relatively meager funds have been allocated toward the most pressing problems that beekeepers face. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:33:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: KELLEY CUPS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a 1997 KELLEY coffee cup. Does anyone have an extra? Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: wasted research dollars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adrian & All, Adrian said: 4) Millions have been spent this past half century on studies of the waggle dance maneuver without, it seems to me, any real benefit to beekeepers. Lately, by contrast, relatively meager funds have been allocated toward the most pressing problems that beekeepers face. I agree completely. For years our researchers wanted to study bee research which would have little impact on solving the problems of beekeeping. Even the study of africanized bees became a *document the movement* ( stretched out over 30 years) type of project rather than a *solve the problem* type of project (proposed by many commercial beekeepers) . Millions have been spent on documentation of the movement of africanized bees from Brazil to the U.S.. Commercial beekeepers told the USDA for years the way to stop AHB from ever moving past Panama but the solution would be an end to an interesting (and money pending ) research project. I find it interesting (if not funny) that AHb did not spread like the researchers predicted (American Bee Journal)or even in the time frame predicted. In all fairness to my friends at the USDA my own prediction of AHB spreading into Florida early on was wrong. I still am not sure why AHB stopped their eastward movement. Many hypothesis exist. Take your pick! The only difference is my hypothesis came without taking needed money away from other bee research! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:29:36 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Bee-L Thailand Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .........."3) Is everyone just going to ignore this kind of thing, and hope it wanders off? Chlortetracycline Test result 3.42mg/kg" Jim Fischer's comment shines a spot in a dark world!! And the answer to the question - yes!, nearly all will wait and sometimes watch. Then when opportune, have a go at the people willing to get things moving in our bee world. Result, fewer individuals are willing to put up for positions of responsibility or co-ordination. My experience in helping in my limited way with the "Imidaclopride Saga" - by trying to get at the truth has shown that: 1. Most don't care until the problem hits them. 2. Most will then complain that nothing has been organised to protect them. 3. Most take criticism (constructive or inquiring) as a personal assault. 4. Debate is difficult to engender without having to ref. a slanging match. 5. Propositions from certain fractions are stonewalled on principle by others regardless of subject - just because they are "opponents". 6. That there is a basis for the belief that others outside the industry prefer that it continues as such. 7 The balance between considered as a "defender of bees" and a simple b -stirrer is extremely fine. and finally; 8. Most are not willing to seek out info. and get informed! Regards, Peter "defender of bees" or simple b -stirrer, according to your views. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: wasted research dollars Adrian said: >> 4) Millions have been spent this past half century on studies of the >> waggle dance maneuver Specifics to support this claim are required before anyone can accept it as more than "pure 100% fact-free hyperbole". It appears exaggerated, as the terms "million dollars" and "bee research" are not often found in the same sentence. >> without, it seems to me, any real benefit to beekeepers. If research was focused only on today's specific problems, it would not be "research". It would be mere "applications engineering". As I used to say every year at budget time "If we knew what was to come of our efforts, then it wouldn't be R&D." >> Lately, by contrast, relatively meager funds have been >> allocated toward the most pressing problems that beekeepers face. and Bob added: > I agree completely. For years our researchers wanted to study bee research > which would have little impact on solving the problems of beekeeping. I'm surprised at this sort of sweeping view. Statements of this kind are typically found in 95-page long tomes written out in longhand with a #2 pencil, ones that also include references to The Illuminati, Freemasonry, The Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberger group, et al. Let's get real - researchers have to justify not only every project, but every purchase and employee hour to those who control the funding. While a beekeeper may not agree with the specific criteria used to make every funding decision, I don't see many beekeepers putting their money where their mouths are on this issue. While bees are sometimes used in studies of things like "social insect behavior", these researchers are simply not ever going to work on practical beekeeping problems. They would just as soon use ants for their studies. These research dollars have no chance of being diverted to focus on bees, as bees were never the primary focus of their interest. These dollars are not "wasted" in the eyes of those who parcel out the pennies. The science at issue is clearly interesting enough to warrant funding, as there is never enough money to fund all projects. Of the group of researchers who DO have specific interest in bees, they all would just love to find a way to "make a difference". They know that the man or woman who, for example, can defeat varroa, need never pay for their own drinks ever again in this lifetime. They want to be loved. Face it - researchers are JUST LIKE BEES. You can't expect to control what they do, but you can trust that the net result of the efforts of a large number of them will be both positive and worthwhile, even though you can't see much progress or make much sense of the bigger picture by only watching one or two of them. Researchers, just like bees, need care. Neglect them, and they don't produce. Abuse them, and they don't produce. You want something specific researched? Raise some money, and publish a Request For Proposals. Better yet, just send the money to the Eastern Apicultural Society bee research fund, and let them do all the grunt work of slogging through research proposals. (I am sure that you can designate the general purpose to which you would like the money put, and with a large enough contribution, you might be able to fund a study single-handedly.) But you gotta pay to play. Ante up. jim (Who had a calculator and a non-linear equations book confiscated at Baltimore-Washington Airport. The security guy said they were "Weapons of Math Instruction", and accused me of being a member of the "al-Gebra" movement...) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:37:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bee-L Thailand Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > .........."3) Is everyone just going to ignore this kind of > thing, and hope it wanders off? No. I have already acted on the information and have made arrangements to alert our authorities. We will be checking to see what action the authorities take and also using the beekeeper network to check on any that may find its way in. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:54:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: wasted research dollars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Does the list doubt millions have been spent over the last thirty years researching the Africanized honey bee? Thirty years of trap lines, trips to South America, countless hours running DNA and wing venation on swarms caught in traps in Brazil or southern Mexico . I know of one researcher alone which recieved 250,000 U.S. to study AHB. He concluded that the AHB was one nasty bee and not the kind of honeybee we would want in our hives (and he kept only AHb in nucs!). Hell I could have concluded the above before he started his five years of observations. Adrian & I have seen huge sums of precious research money spent on (in our opinion) projects of little value to beekeeping. As a beekeeper I would like to see every beekeeping research project funded but reality says we need to research the most pressing first and the others at lower levels. AHB research dominated research for many years and many beekeepers complained. What have we really learned about the africanized bee. At what point is a bee africanized? Could sssome of the the money spent on AHB research have better been used in other ways? Could not some of the money spent on researching the waggle dance have been used to research other pressing beekeeping research? Why did not we find the early work (1937) on odor which proved the waggle dance theory *alone* was flawed before spending research dollars on flawed research? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Digital bee pictures MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Beekeepers, The last few months I have been seeing links to great bee pictures! If its not too off topic, could some of you photographers out there, offer some advice on a good digital macro camara? I'd love to take some pictures of my bees doing their thing! Thanks, Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:39:27 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Scale in hives and inspection Dave Green said: > I hate that smaller beekeepers find migratories a convenient target. > And many of them are so busy that they don't have time to go to a lot > of bee meetings, so they don't have much defense against the nonsense > that is thrown around. Well, let's compare and contrast: a) The USA, where the needs of a small number of migratory beekeepers have trumped each and every quarantine every single time (except the anti-fire-ant attempts of California, which is a whole different story, where bees and their pallets are merely one of many potential carriers). b) Alberta and Saskatchewan Canada, where there are only a few "migratory" beekeepers, and certain areas are known to be "completely non-migratory". Like it or not, there seems to be a clear and compelling correlation between a lack of migratory activity and both a greatly reduced incidence of and much slower spreading of exotic invasive diseases and pests. In contrast, look at Florida. How DO Small Hive Beetles, first detected in Florida, suddenly pop up hundreds of miles away without any sightings anywhere in between the two points? Funny how Florida is unique for being an over-wintering spot for so many migratory operations. Now there is more than one form of "migratory", and all the SHB finds n Tennessee clearly were introduced by small-scale "migratory" events, where someone moved across state lines to get a Sourwood crop. Call me any name you'd like, but one does NOT see the sort of steady mile-by-mile, county-by county spread that one saw with AHB as it spread over the Mexican border. If "natural spread" was the primary mechanism for the spread of all diseases and pests, we WOULD see a mapping pattern similar to the many maps made of the spread of AHB. A swarm can only fly so far. Trucks can go much further. The lack of more detailed mapping (down to the county level or better yet, the 5-digit zipcode level) on a nationwide basis is a disgrace, but I don't know if anyone except me is really interested in having finer-grained detail than "state level" mapping of pests and diseases. Such fine-grained mapping would prove the point one way or the other beyond all doubt, so I'm not sure that anyone really wants detailed mapping to exist. Regardless, I hold no grudge against anyone who willingly works like a beekeeper while living like a carnival roadie. Being "on the road" for a few weeks straight is a draining experience, even if one stays in the best hotels, flies by corporate jet, and is pampered by skill professionals at each step in the journey. I could not imagine being "migratory" for even a single season. jim ("Good morning, concierge desk..." "Where am I?" "You are in room 1428, Sir." "More generally, I am... where?" "You are at the Embassy Suites, Sir." "Yes, yes, I figured that out, but what CITY?" "You are in Atlanta Georgia, Sir.") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:39:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: FW: [IBNewList] Dance vs odor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: cslade777@aol.com In a message dated 13/06/03 17:50:33 GMT Daylight Time, norman.carreck@bbsrc.ac.uk writes: << You say "learn from experience", but a forager only actually forages for about 4 - 5 days. What if there was no rain in the preceding few days? >> Norman, As little as that? I thought it was a couple of weeks or even more. Did Robert Pickard's experiments on bee brains identify 'navigation centres' and if so, how did they relate to scent and vision areas? Chris --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:41:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Scale in hives and inspection In-Reply-To: <05cc01c331eb$e20aa590$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 13 Jun 2003 at 16:39, James Fischer wrote: >...the needs of a small number of migratory beekeepers have trumped each and every quarantine every single time The beekeepers could never have pulled off any such "trump." In each and every case it was much bigger farmers who had to have the bees for pollination that had the political muscle to keep the bees coming. And that not in every case. I know of apple orchards that did not get pollination and lost their crops because the regulators could not, or would not act in a timely fashion. > Like it or not, there seems to be a clear and compelling correlation > between a lack of migratory activity and both a greatly reduced > incidence > of and much slower spreading of exotic invasive diseases and pests. Well, I've certainly heard that before, and there may be some truth to it. But large scale migratories are not the only bee movement. I probably have mentioned before, but will again, that North Carolina tried to stop migratory beekeeping for awhile (primarily as a protection measure for their own beekeepers), by using a quarantine. During that time, North Carolina beekeepers themselves pretty much ignored the quarantine. Some came across to do pollination in South Carolina, then returned to NC. Some did sourwood honey at low elevation in SC, then moved back to later high elevation sourwood in NC. And there were plenty of NC beekeepers coming to SC and GA for nucs and packages. I was in upstate SC one spring, getting gas and noticed a station wagon with two beehives in the back (believe it or not!). I talked with the owner, who was a resident of Savannah, with a summer home near Asheville. He was carrying his hives up with him to make sure he got that good sourwood honey. I mentioned the quarantine to him. He had never heard of it, but it didn't matter; he was going anyway. Betcha he had no idea what varroa was either. Bees are going to move around; there isn't much way to stop this kind of activity, unless there is a guarded border, and even those tend to leak. Migratory beekeeping is not much of a lifestyle for those who have families, and those who do it generally feel that they have no choice, if they want a viable business. It's made necessary because of US monoculture, which seasonally requires the input of large quantities of pollinators, and because it's pretty tough to have self sustaining beekeeping in the north. A lot of northern beekeepers buy queens and packages, particularly after a hard winter, but it's considerably cheaper to take the bees south for the winter than it is to replace them. I just feel that it's unfair to repeatedly make migratories the whipping boys. Yes, they probably do spread some pests, but I doubt that this is any more than done by hobby beekeepers as in the the examples above. Some pests, like the afrobeetles, move around pretty freely without bees to ride on. They can fly for many miles, or ride truckloads of fruit. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:14:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today is the deadline for EAS registration without penalty. See http://www.easternapiculture.org/. After over thirty years in beekeeping, I finally have time to go. EAS is held exactly in the middle of our Alberta extracting season, and EAS is not normally a reasonable option for commercial beekeepers from our region. I understand that last year there was an extensive program that drew raves from all attending, and with content for all, but I was too busy, being a beekeeper, to go. This year, being retired, I can finally attend, so I have been looking over the program recently -- with full intention of signing up -- but I think I put this off too long. Now I find I'm facing a deadline and can't find the info I need to make intelligent decisions. When I look over the short course program, I can't figure out, from the web pages, exactly what is being offered and by whom, other than in very general terms, and I see nothing about Wednesday morning other than " Combined Session - Topics of interest to all beekeepers". I wonder what this could possibly be? Maybe there is a more detailed and complete description of the topics and presenters somewhere? I could not find it. So much for the short courses. Since we are travelling by motorhome, we have no intention of staying on campus, unless they have facilities for motorhomes. I was therefore very interested in the campus "daily use fee". Apparently it includes a noon meal of some sort, somewhere, but I cannot visualise how this works. (The idea seems bizarre to me and I cannot imagine why campus usage is not included in the session fees, since -- apparently -- the sessions take place on campus. Maybe not). Does this fee include parking? I have yet to discover how parking works at the campus, which is apparently in the middle of the city, (beyond that two-hour free parking is available) or discover if EAS parking is included, or extra. No mention is made, that I could discover, on the forms. No mention of oversize vehicles is apparent either, and beekeepers -- real ones anyhow -- drive trucks, and some of us drive motorhomes. (As an interesting aside, here that is the major difference I have been able to discover between the AHPA conventions and the ABF meetings. The AHPA always has lots of free parking for trucks). The program for the EAS conference is more understandable. Of course, I want to hear what Shim has to say, and other speakers I enjoy are presenting on promising topics. In the workshops, I am hoping Gordon Wardell will have more word on the new diets being developed in Tucson. Encaustic painting http://www.biddingtons.com/content/pedigreeencaustic.html might be of interest to my wife, who is an accomplished artist, and the session on photography may -- or may not-- be of interest to us both. So, I am stuck. I was intending to register, but -- all in all -- have no idea what I'd be registering for, or if I can even park there. As it stands, I'm thinking I'll let this deadline pass, and just drop in at EAS to see what it is all about if it works out that time, since we'll be in the area, but I'm wondering -- if 500 people attend, how do they manage to figure out the program and registration? What am I missing? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Maybe I'm just getting too old... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:16:44 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Dave said: > But large scale migratories are not the only bee movement. Well, I do know of a very tiny number of specific examples of some (to my knowledge, unique) exceptions: a) TN, where smaller beekeeper(s) were clearly responsible for "introducing" SHB. b) Here in Virginia, we had one case were SHB showed up in a package shipment. c) Canada had a single infestation as a result of a shipment of beeswax from the USA. But these are highly entertaining exceptional cases, and cannot explain the bulk of infestations. > Bees are going to move around; there isn't much way to stop > this kind of activity, unless there is a guarded border, and > even those tend to leak. Then explain the situation in the Canadian provinces I mentioned versus the situation in the USA. While you are at it, explain the maps you can see here: http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/usaall.html Pay special attention to the Georgia map, which will appear when you click on Georgia in the national map. (This is a very nice map, in that each infested state is broken down to the county level. Too bad we don't have this sort of thing for all bee pests and diseases, kept updated weekly or monthly...) Please explain the proximate cause of the "spotty" pattern of SHB infestations in the USA WITHOUT long-distance movement of live bees through either: a) Migratory movement b) Package shipments To go further, explain why, in the specific case of Georgia, there is not a much wider spread of SHB within the state, given the large number of smaller beekeepers who will move hives from "home" to go after Gallberry near the coast, then to Sourwood in the mountains, and then "back home". It should be clear that small-scale "migratory" beekeepers are not going to move their bees as far as the larger migratory guys, so we cannot lay the "long distance movement" problem at the feet of the nameless "small operator". The Georgia maps tend to support a conclusion that short-distance movement of bees by smaller operators has NOT resulted in SHB spread. > Some pests, like the afrobeetles, move around pretty freely > without bees to ride on. This has been claimed, but the facts show this to be either untrue, or so rare as to be an insignificant mechanism for the spread of SHB. Look at the maps. Read 'em and weep. > They can fly for many miles, For the statement above to hold any water, one would have to see a much less "spotty" pattern in the maps cited above. Clearly the spread has NOT been "a steady geographic spread", which would be the case if SHB (or swarms) were "flying" as the mechanism for their spread. Look at this AHB map, which shows a clear example of a "geographic spread" via swarms. http://ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/ahb/imap/ahb2000.html Compare, contrast, comment. Again, read 'em and weep. > or ride truckloads of fruit. For the statement above to hold any water there would have to be SHB outbreaks near loading docks, grocery warehouses, farmers markets, and so on. Since we have yet to see such outbreaks, nor has anyone traced even a single SHB beehive infestation to any of these sorts of places, it would appear that the "fruit truck scenario" is not a viable way for the pest to spread. a) Fresh fruits and veggies go everywhere. Bees only go some places b) There are likely thousands of shipments of fruits and veggies for every one shipment of bees. c) Logic dictates that hives kept near places where trucks are unloaded would be the first infected in any one area. This has not been the case. Since SHB is not "everywhere", and has not spread in any pattern that might lend even a shred of evidence to support either the "fruit truck scenario", or the "natural spread scenario", we are left with mapping that defies explanation without admitting that the proximate cause is the deliberate movement of live bees over very long distances. We are left with "bee trucks" (big boys) "bee SUVs" (small-timers), and package shipments. The evidence speaks for itself as to the extent of the problems caused by each type of movement. > I just feel that it's unfair to repeatedly make migratories > the whipping boys. Yes, they probably do spread some pests, > but I doubt that this is any more than done by hobby beekeepers > as in the the examples above. The use of the term "whipping boy" evinces an opinion that such conclusions are "unfair", or not based upon fact. While I don't advocate "whipping", as it does nothing about the problem, it does appears that SHB is an excellent test-case to prove the issue beyond all doubt, and support the need for more scrutiny of migratory hives, or a indemnification fund. I don't see a big difference between a "pesticide kill" and an "SHB kill". Both are caused by "someone else" who profits while the "victim" suffers, and both are caused by a lack of professionalism and due care. I await an explanation of the facts at hand that does not involve one of the three types of long-distance movement of live bees that appear to be the only possible causative agents of the spread of SHB. Can anyone think of any OTHER possible mechanisms that would be consistent with the evidence at hand? jim (Who plays the cards he is dealt) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:14:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline Comments: cc: Bill Truesdell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Since we are travelling by motorhome, we have no intention of staying > on campus, unless they have facilities for motorhomes. No, they do not. But there are many motor home facilities in the area. I was therefore > very interested in the campus "daily use fee". Apparently it > includes a noon meal of some sort, somewhere, but I cannot visualise > how this works. (The idea seems bizarre to me and I cannot imagine > why campus usage is not included in the session fees, since -- > apparently -- the sessions take place on campus. Maybe not). The daily use fee is included in the on-campus lodging but is an add on for those who attend the conference but do not live on campus. Bowdoin works it that way and we accommodated them. It includes the use of any Bowdoin facility including things like the field house and pool. Lunch is on campus with everyone else. It is a buffet lunch. Does this fee include > parking? I have yet to discover how parking works at the campus, > which is apparently in the middle of the city, (beyond that two-hour > free parking is available) or discover if EAS parking is included, or > extra. Thee is no charge for parking in the area. A "city" in Maine is a relative term. I live in Bath, a City, and only 2 miles from the center of the city. I am in the country. Our city population is 10,000. So there is parking for most vehicles but motor homes will have a problem as they do in any urban area. > No mention is made, that I could discover, on the forms. No mention > of oversize vehicles is apparent either, and beekeepers -- real ones > anyhow -- drive trucks, and some of us drive motorhomes. (As an > interesting aside, here that is the major difference I have been able > to discover between the AHPA conventions and the ABF meetings. The > AHPA always has lots of free parking for trucks). You should have little problem parking trucks. It is the Maine State Vehicle. I forwarded your questions on the program to Ann Harmon, who is running the Short Course and to Rick Cooper who is in charge of the conference. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:52:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The last few months I have been seeing links to great bee pictures! > If its not too off topic, could some of you photographers out there, offer > some advice on a good digital macro camara? Don, I'm just starting beekeeping and make photo's of whatever comes along. It is great fun to be able to show others the things that keep me occupied, which is bees at the moment and it aids in my beekeeping learning process. In my case, it's a camera from work that I can take home, I only dot down my name on a list (that I made myself, to show my good intentions) so that my colleagues know who's got it. Amongst other things we use it at work to take pictures of turbine blades, using an adaptor and borescope. The camera is a few years old by now, so no longer the latest on the market. It is an Olympus Camedia C-2500L. (2,5 milion pixels). It has a zoom lens that is equal to a 36-110mm zoom lens of a 35mm camera, so the zooming happens optically, which is better than the digitally zooming cameras. Memory cards for it come in sizes from 2-64MB or 96MB for a compact flash type. This camera has a macro and super-macro setting for close-ups. In super-macro I have more than once managed to touch bees with the lens, but the documented minimum distance is 2 cm. Hopefully that gave you some idea. Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:35:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Scale in hives and inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Lloyd and Everyone, > Why do almost all commercial operations still use terra prophylactically? Because they are afraid of being infected by 'someone else'? Get real...the 'someone else' is themselves! By using terrap prophylactically the disease has been masked (not cured) but is still widespread. Our state bee association is comprised of at least 99% commercial beekeepers and if you less than a thousand hives you don't count. At a meeting on the beek got up and told of his experience. He moved a yard of bees into a new area and promptly found foulbrood in that yard. After noticing another nearby beeyard operated by a hobbyist, he reported it to the state inspectors and demanded they inspect it for foul. They inspected the hobbyist yard on two seperate occassions without finding a trace of foul. Yet, the foul persisted in his yard, so he demanded they inspect the hobbyist again. Sure enough foul was now found to effect the hobbyists bees also. So he reiterated the threat that untreated(prophylactically) hobby hives had on his operation. I about fell out of my chair. Then he proposed the use of ethylene oxide as a fumigant. He had used this successfully in the past by purchasing the ampules from the hospital and using them in a chest freezer in the gargage next to his house! But since the EPA has restricted it's use, it's carcinogenic, and the hospitals wouldn't sell it to him. He wanted the state to persue its registration. The organization readily endorsed the proposal. I couldn't believe it. Imagine how the hobbist felt. Ironic, huh? No need to wonder why there are only a couple of hobbyists that belong to the only beekeeping organization in the state. Regards Dennis Perspective is Everthing :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:35:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <002501c332a6$1e6807c0$802865d5@ronmierl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I use a Minolta DiMage 7i, which cost about $1300 with flash card, battery pack, etc. But that was last December and they've come down since then. It is capable of 5.0 megapixels, and macro, and takes great photos. The only problem is the autofocus gets confused when there are a lot of bees together at different distances, and the manual focus is harder to use than that of a 35mm. Eugene Makovec > > If its not too off topic, could some of you > photographers out there, offer > > some advice on a good digital macro camara? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:30:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Charles B. Cromer" Subject: Too late? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Just was wondering if it is too late in the year to start up another hive. I am thinking it is, but have another hive ready to go and got that itch.... I am in Panama City FL I don't want to start one though if it won't have enough time to build up strong enough for winter etc. I don't want to start another if it will mean I will have to nurse it through the whole winter etc. If I were to start one it would probably either be from a swarm or a few frames from my one strong hive. It is busting at the seems so I think it could spare a frame or two. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::