From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:23:42 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF584903C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdw011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0306D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 177151 Lines: 3917 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy folks, I've been searching the archives for info on mite counts, and have found = some good formulas for estimating mite loads, but have not found any = simple rule of thumb for what I would call an "action" threshold. When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky board), = is there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:17:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Too late? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>The SMR Carnies seem especially good, from my limited experience. I would like to learn more about SMR Carniolans. I did not know there were Carniolans that were SMR. Please tell more. Do they really resist Varroa? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:28:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds In-Reply-To: <000c01c338d4$f2843a40$b3b472d8@SOD> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:42 AM 6/22/2003 -0400, you wrote: >When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky board), is >there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? Unfortunately there is not simple answer. It depends on the time of year, amount of brood, etc. Check out the online mite calculator at http://www.csl.gov.uk/prodserv/cons/bee/varroamodel/app.cfm -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:38:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Barry Donovan: Several papers published during the last few years on communication in other species of social bees in the genus Melipona have shown that they have an ability to pass on information about food sources using a `language'. There are several hundred species in the Meliponinae, of which only a few have been studied so far. It will be most interesting to see if evidence of `language' is found for any other species. Julian O'Dea: Here is an unpublished paper that touches on this matter: Problems with the Honeybee Dance Language Hypothesis Julian O'Dea, Visiting Fellow, Division of Botany and Zoology, Australian National University. The "dance" of the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) is one of the most famous of all animal behaviours, but its meaning remains controversial. On returning to the hive after a successful foraging trip, a honeybee may do a "dance," a set of movements that reflects in miniature the details of her trip. The duration and orientation of the movements in the dance depend on the distance from, and the direction of, the bee's latest foraging site relative to the hive. A longstanding debate centres on whether this "dance" is a language, in the sense that it communicates this spatial information to other bees, as famously proposed by Professor von Frisch. An alternative hypothesis is that locality odour alone, not dance movements, is the basis of the communication of the whereabouts of resources (1). An assumption of the classical von Frisch hypothesis has been that honeybees are good at accurately estimating the distance they have travelled, so that they can represent this in their dances for the information of other bees. It has generally been thought that honeybees rely on the amount of energy used on a trip to estimate the distance travelled (2, 3). However "dance language" proponents recently obtained some unexpected experimental results (4). They found that the relationship between the distance to resources and dance duration (which is supposed to reflect the distance the bee has travelled) differed depending on the direction to the food. This suggested that the honeybees were not able to make absolute measurements of distance travelled. Esch et al. (4) concluded that bees actually measure distance from the amount of "optic flow" on their trip, that is "the total amount of image motion en route to the food source". Since the amount of optic flow differs depending on the visual features in the honeybee's journey, this would explain why the bee's estimation of distance might vary depending on the direction of her flight. But, at the same time, it implies that honeybees must be poor at measuring distance in an absolute sense. If Esch et al. (4) are correct, their findings raise problems for the "dance language" hypothesis. As they note themselves, the apparent lack of absolute accuracy in the information about distance - supposedly conveyed in the dance - is a problem for the proposed communicative mechanism. In the absence of accurate distance information, as the authors write, " ... there must be a high selection pressure to ensure that a dance signals the direction of the food source as precisely as possible." However there is evidence that direction information is also not very accurate (5). The inaccuracy in the supposed means of communication makes it less likely that the dance movements of honeybees have anything to do with communication of the whereabouts of resources. The alternative, locality odour hypothesis (1, 6) therefore gains in credibility. Further evidence that bee species may show behaviours on returning from a foraging trip that contain information about the trip that is not communicated to the other bees in the hive comes from observations on stingless bees (Meliponini) (6). A study on Melipona quadrifasciata (7) found that there was a correlation between the distance to resources and the duration of the sounds emitted by foraging bees on their return. However, the study also showed that the distance information is probably not used by the other bees in their foraging. For example, although the bees were found to respond to a sound signal that corresponded to a nearby feeding station (0 to 30 m), "the bees did not respond to a signal for a feeding station 300 m away or for a station at any other distance". The authors concluded that " ... smell [locality odour] alone appeared to be a sufficient stimulus for the trained bees to fly to the 300 m feeding station." More recent studies (8-10) on another Melipona species, Melipona panamica, also indicate that the bees make sounds on returning to the hive with features that correlate with details of their foraging trips. The authors propose that these sounds communicate the position of food localities to other bees. However, little consideration was given to the possible communication of the odour of food localities in providing information on their whereabouts. No experiments were done that would have determined whether the locality odour bees bring back from a desirable foraging site, or the sounds emitted by bees on returning from the site, is the factor that conveys information on the location of resources. It is quite conceivable that - as in the case of Melipona quadrifasciata (7) - the sounds produced by the bees that correlate with details of their foraging flights are not the mode of communication. In summary, it is conceivable that food locality odour is used by bees in communicating the whereabouts of resources, not the supposed "dance language" and other postulated forms of symbolic communication. Dancing movements and sounds emitted by bees returning from foraging trips may only serve to attract the attention of hivemates so that they can be made aware of the odours associated with desirable food sites (6). References: (1) Wenner, A.M. 1971. The bee language controversy: an experience in science. Educational Programs Improvement Corporation, Boulder, Colorado, USA, 109 p. (2) Goncalves, L.S. 1969. A study of orientation information given by one trained bee by dancing. J. apic. res. 8 (3): 113-132. (3) Michener, C.D. 1974. The social behavior of the bees: a comparative study. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, USA, 404 p. (4) Esch, H.E., S. Zhang, M.V. Srinivasan and J. Tautz. 2001. Honeybee dances communicate distances measured by optic flow. Nature 411: 581-583. (5) Vadas, R.L. 1994. The anatomy of an ecological controversy: honey-bee searching behaviour. Oikos 69: 158-166 and at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/oikos94.htm (6) O'Dea, J.D. 2000. Why do honeybees dance? naturalSCIENCE http://naturalscience.com/ns/nshome.html (7) Esch, H, I.Esch and W.E. Kerr. 1965. Sound: An element common to communication of stingless bees and to dances of the honey bee. Science 149: 320-321. (8) Nieh, J.C. 1998 The role of a scent beacon in the communication of food location by the stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 47-58. (9) Nieh, J.C. 1998. The food recruitment dance of the stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 133-145. (10) Nieh, J.C. and D.W. Roubik. 1998. Possible mechanisms for the communication of height and distance by a stingless bee, Melipona panamica. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. 43: 387-399. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:19:25 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds Todd said: > ...have not found any simple rule of thumb for what I would call an > "action" threshold. > When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky > board), is there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? Well, there is one, and it has even been tweaked a few times, but I feel that it will do you more harm than good. Keith Delaplane and Mike Hood did a series of studies that prompted them to offer a current treatment threshold" of 59 to 187 mites. (See http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Research/archives.htm for abstracts, #8, #10, and #22 are the ones to read.) I attended a talk he gave yesterday on this very subject at the VA/MD joint state meeting. He talked about the study summarized in #22 on the web page. But think for yourself a moment. What meaning does a number have without a point of reference? How can you ever use numbers without comparing them? Colonies vary in bee population, amount of brood, and levels of infestation. Colonies also vary in ALL things over time. Let's take some fictional "cases", and see how far down the rabbit whole an "absolute number" can take us. Let's assume that you have a mite count of "50" for each of four colonies. Using the "single number" approach, you walk away happy. But you won't be happy for long. Here's some cheap-and-dirty estimates of "the rest of the story": Colony 1 Colony 2 Colony 3 Colony 4 Mite Count 50 50 50 50 Brood Frames 4 5 8 11 Estimated Bees 25,000 35,000 60,000 70,000 Ummmm... which colony needs treatment? Clearly, some standard method of estimating bee populations and comparing to mite drops is mission-critical to the effort. One can go further, and say that "You don't know" unless you know what the mite count was last week, (or last month, if you are really lazy) and you can compare both mite counts to a bee population estimate done at the same time as the mite counts. One can go even further, and say that the numbers above have completely different meanings in early spring ("April") versus early summer ("June") versus late summer ("August"). Note that the numbers I listed above for the Colonies are completely "made up", but my point is that the same "threshold" number or range cannot possibly apply to all colonies at all times. I'd suggest that natural mite drop counts tracked over time are much more useful, as one can more clearly see a "jump" in the counts, and compare to an indicator of bee population (frames covered with bees, frames of brood, whatever). If varroa spikes "up", and bees have not "spiked up", then one is approaching the "danger zone". In regard to the Delaplane/Hood numbers, their studies were done over a less than 2-year period, so they did not follow colonies over even the period that many hives have survived without any treatment at all. So, a true "threshold" is not a single number, but a difference between "this time" and "last time", both compared to bee population, and referenced to some sort of seasonal constant. Something like: (Mite Drop Now) (Mite Drop Last Time) (Delta Mites) ------------------ - --------------------- = ------------- (Brood Frames Now) (Brood Frames Then) (Delta Bees) Now, if the Bee/Mite ratio "last time" is much smaller than the Bee/Mite ratio, "this time", you have a real understanding of the situation, and can compare the ratios of different colonies to get a feel for which are the "badly infested" ones. One can also get a feel for "typical" mite to bee ratios at different times of the year if one keeps a notebook. Let me stress that Delaplane and Hood are doing important work, and that they are uncovering much that is useful (for example, they have shown that even "hygienic queens" and screen bottom boards will not control varroa when used together). But my lack of enthusiasm for a "single number" approach to IPM is so strong that I feel that the "single number" approach is "Idiotic Pest Management" rather than "Intelligent Pest Management". As far as true "Integrated Pest Management" goes, I think that the best that can be said is that we can now alternate between a "hard" chemical (Apistan or Check-Mite) and a softer approach, like Api-Life VAR, and PERHAPS skip treating some colonies at all some years. But no one can say (yet) exactly what sort of mite/bee ratio a colony can "live with", and more important, no one can say much about long-term survival of colonies where a threshold ratio is not exceeded, and a decision to not treat in fall is made. Wyatt Mangum is doing very interesting things. He is looking at both "natural" 24-hour mite drop AND 24-hour Apistan strip drops over more colonies, and over a multi-year period. He is also building a good dataset on "drifting mites", brought in by drifting bees. Wyatt's numbers may allow the creation of a good model for relative bee and mite populations, ongoing re-infestation via drifting, and seasonal growth. He may even be able to give us a "baseline" infestation rate due to drift, which would be very valuable. So, just as it was last year, and the year before, and the year before that... "the price of honey is eternal vigilance". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:25:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > these bees should be obtained by shaking from the brood nest... Remember, folks, that those frames you are shaking may contain pupae at a delicate stage. Maybe not all the deformed wings we see on bees at the entrances are due to varroa or a virus. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Been away: Beaverlodge Field day. Catching up soon. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:48:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This year, i'm grafting by hand, using a size 00 pen, which i found even easier than using the > Jenter thing. Have you tried the Chinese grafting tools? > After the cells are capped, i put protectors on them. Why are you using cell protectors? Unless conditions are very bad, the finishing colony should not pull them down. > The cell will contain one of three things: > -A small undeveloped bee, maybe a worker bee, still white with purple eyes If the larvae are still white then they have a day or so to go to hatch. If it is the day they are due to hatch they should be starting to turn brown. > -A small fully developed, but dead, bee Are they getting chilled because of the cell protectors? > -A black mess on the bottom of the cell (rare) Have you had the "mess" checked for black queen cell virus? Your description seems to fit BQCV. Also have it checked for European foulbrood. EFB can kill queen larvae. Have you ever tried the "Cloake" method of queen rearing? It was developed by Harry Cloake from New Zealand and uses the one colony for starting and finishing. I use a slight variation on it. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:15:56 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jan tempelman Organization: home sweet home Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from page http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html The number of mites in a hive (during brood season) can be found by counting them on the bottom sheet in one day and multiplying that by 50. If there are no more than 10 mites a day, it is not likely that the mites do measurable harm. ---------------- Todd wrote: > Howdy folks, > > I've been searching the archives for info on mite counts, and have found some good formulas for estimating mite loads, but have not found any simple rule of thumb for what I would call an "action" threshold. > > When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky board), is there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? > > > Thanks, > > Todd. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jan Jan Tempelman Annie Romein-Verschoorpad 2-4 NL 4103 VE Culemborg tel.:0345-524433 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:18:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky > > board), is there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? > > Jim said: Well, there is one, and it has even been tweaked a few times, but I feel > that it will do you more harm than good. Jim illustrated how questionable any single figure guide must be when colonies vary so much in size. But there is an even more important factor, according to Prof Mark Winson of Simon Fraser Uny who visits UK to lecture. Apparently, varooa are not all that lethal to bees - bees from under weight larvae catch up after eating pollen, although longevity is affected. It is the viruses vectored by varooa that kill. Even worse is a combination of varooa and tracheal mites - such colonies go down very fast indeed. So some colonies survive with 8,500 mites - others die with 3,000. UK gov policy is based on limiting max population to 2,500 - the excellent (free) Maff publication 'Varooa - monitoring and forecasting mite populations within honey bee colonies in Britain, 1998' contains graphs from which the number of days before any estimated mite population will expand to 2,500 (latest date for treament) can quickly be seen. Tim Arheit has given the web site adress for the online calculator (which looks more complicated to me). Winston has presumably published his reseach - a reference to an article would be helpful if any one knows. The importance of controlling tracheal mites alongside varooa suggests that thymol based treatmments such as Api Var may be very helpful, alternated with some harder killing substance (oxalic acid?) . Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour Julian O'Dea said: > The "dance" of the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) is one of the most > famous of all animal behaviours, but its meaning remains controversial. There's that word again - "Controversial". Funny how no one except those trying to promote "odor" over "dance" use that word to describe the situation. > A longstanding debate centres on whether this "dance" is a language, A "debate" requires someone on each side of the question, and some direct responsive back-and-forth interaction. What we have is not a "debate", but instead, chanting. Despite attempts to pose direct questions of the chanters about what is being chanted, the chanting continues as if no questions are posed. (Even the Hare Krishnas in the airports would stop chanting for a bit if you gave them a dollar.) > An alternative hypothesis is that locality odour alone... This statement presumes that such a thing as a unique "locality ordor" exists for some large number of arbitrary "localities". Since odors are easy to detect and map down to single molecules with modern equipment, the lack of any evidence to support a claim that there is a unique odor for a "place" is telling. More than telling, it is devastating. > But, at the same time, it implies that honeybees must be poor at > measuring distance in an absolute sense. Yes, and this is a good thing. A colony gains nothing if 20 bees all arrive at the same cluster of clover in a lawn. A little "inaccuracy" is a good thing, in that it spreads out the foragers a bit and avoids overlap. Nature does not provide feeding dishes, nature provides individual blooms in clumps over wide areas. > the apparent lack of absolute accuracy in the information about distance - > supposedly conveyed in the dance - is a problem for the proposed communicative > mechanism. Howso? As I explained above, a lack of accuracy spreads out the foragers, and insures that they do not all visit the same exact rose bush on a fence covered with wild roses. > The inaccuracy in the supposed means of communication makes it less likely that > the dance movements of honeybees have anything to do with communication of the > whereabouts of resources. This is like claiming that because my clock is a little slow, it cannot be a time-keeping device at all. It is like claiming that directions including the phrase "go about a mile down the road, then turn left" are useless if the actual distance is 1.2 or 0.8 miles. > The alternative, locality odour hypothesis therefore gains in credibility. It gains NO credibility as a result. Pointing out minor inaccuracy in a one (well-understood and oft-tested) mechanism does NOT add any "credibility" or support for any other specific proposed mechanism. They must earn their own credibility on their own merits alone. First, there are an infinite number of possible communications schemes, including mental telepathy. "Odor" gains no more credibility from the claimed inaccuracy in "dance" than mental telepathy would. The only thing that might support an alternative (and there could be many alternatives) would be actual evidence that would support the proposed mechanism. There is no need to even mention "dance". Talk about "odor". Explain how it works, in detail. Answer questions about how it works. Follow bees leaving hives, and explain how the ones that fly downwind can be "following an odor". Even if a few bees fly into the wind, explain how 8 different "locality odors" might make their way to the hive from points that are widely separated by direction and distance. Explain how a field that is partly shaded and partly in sun at 3pm has an odor that changes as the shadow of the hill moves, since one can see bees stop working the shaded area as clover goes into shade and stops producing nectar. Explain how two fields of the same mixed weeds can have odors unique from each other. Explain how a "locality odor" gets back to the hive on a single bee, and explain how the other bees can detect this odor on the bee among all the other odors on all the other bees that have arrived within the last few minutes. Then detect these odors on bees you capture at the hive entrance, and show a correlation to an odor that you can detect where the bee foraged. Show how this odor is unique to that area, and not the same as odors you collect from other nearby areas. In other words, one should provide some evidence in support of one's claim, rather than nitpicking something claim that is supported by substantial evidence. Note well that even if "dance" were proven to be completely random, and to have no connection to any subsequent movement of foraging bees, "odor" would still be hampered by the complete lack of an explanation of how it works, and the complete lack of tangible evidence that such things as "locality odors" exist. Without such proof, continued chanting about "odor" is nothing but mere speculation. jim (whose heels are stained with the hearts and souls of the persistently fuzzy) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:00 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris wrote: > Mats, > > Under what circumstances do you graft? I am wondering about ultraviolet > light. > Good point, i took a frame out and did the grafting in the shade back of my car, out of direct sunlight. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:06:29 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline Allen said: > I'll be in the area at that time, and may attempt to drop in on the > meeting, especially if I can find out more about the program before then. > I guess I'm disappointed... > the material available does not really allow me to decide for myself. On the website is a list of contacts, complete with e-mail addresses. http://www.easternapiculture.org/contacts/ Ask, and ye shall receive. jim (Who notes that if the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, then an e-mail with photo attachments is the ultimate weapon.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:56:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PMFJI, but these points are interesting, and if I can ask a few questions without interrupting the original discussion... > Why are you using cell protectors? Unless conditions are very bad, > the finishing colony should not pull them down. We use JayZee BeeZee cell protectors as protection against stray queens in the finishing colonies and the carrying box. We also thought them a good idea for occasions where we plug a cell into a newly made split or colony which has been dequeened moments before. Could you comment on the necessity -- or lack thereof? > Are they getting chilled because of the cell protectors? I had not considered that possibility and wonder how it could occur in the centre of ther brood nest where the temperature is presumably controlled. I have heard that some beekeepers think that protectors are bad because they interfere with contact between the bees and the sealed cells (that is the idea, actually). Is this a bad thing? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:32:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/2003/program/ > A list exists. James Fischer wrote: > On the website is a list of contacts, complete with e-mail addresses. > http://www.easternapiculture.org/contacts/ Thanks guys, and thanks to the others who have written me, some offering to look up parking for oversize vehicles, and others offering to answer any questions. I've been away -- at a bee field day -- and have some catching up to do in my corresponence. At any rate, I guess the point I was making, and Bob reinforced, is that we are *not* asking for special treatment and expecting to have to write and phone the officials -- no matter how friendly and helpful they may be -- of a national meeting to find out what, where, and when. Nor do I think that these officials would appreciate hearing from everyone who is confused by the promotional materials or lack thereof. The fact is that most who do not understand what is on the web or sent by mail, have to decide whether to take a chance, as jim recommends, and commit the time plus hundreds of dollars, simply make other plans, or sample from the periphery, as I have decided to do, since I will be in the area anyhow. I guess most of us expect that, for a major event, a program will be planned, *clearly* and unamibuously scheduled, and circulated well in advance, with an indication of the venue and maps of access, if required to plan access. This is an obvious necessity, not only for those who come from afar, but for those with special needs and/or limited budgets. I have sympathy for those who are responsible for promotion of such events, especially if they are amateurs at the job, since producing such materials can be very difficult. The major difficulty for those familar with the product or event is that they know it so well that they cannot imagine what a complete tyro (like me) needs to know, and they also assume the decision to attend has already been made, thus omit the basic info required to make the decision to attend. As a matter of interest, I was reminded again this weekend of the WAS which is on this year at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, B.C., Canada from August 12th to 16th, and which features the same Michael Young and his presentations. I cannot comment on the promotional materials, since I have not tried to figure out how to attend -- I'll be in the East at that time. I do notice, however, that the cost is very much less than EAS, and it is in Canadian dollars (which are like 75c for US visitors). here is their program: http://www.bcbeekeepers.com/was/program_21may.pdf . The WAS 2003 site is at http://www.bcbeekeepers.com/was/annual_con_2003.shtml allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:05:03 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds Robin Dartington said: > according to Prof Mark Winston of Simon Fraser Univ > It is the viruses vectored by varooa that kill. Prof Winston's statement is now supported by some very impressive lab and apiary work. I saw very solid proof on Saturday. Mark Feldlaufer, of the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab reported to the Maryland and Virginia beekeepers on the recent work done by his lab at the VA/MD state meeting last weekend. He showed some electrophoresis gels created by Judy Chen in her work on molecular virus detection in varroa and bees. He also showed some very specific results that clearly proved what many had only speculated about. Not only do mites transmit viruses to bees, but mites also transmit viruses to other mites via bee larvae. Mark talks fast, and only gave this subject a few minutes, so I may have not caught all the nuances of either his presentation or the work as a whole, but here's what my Palm Pilot says: Dr. Chen was able to analyze single mites and single larvae for multiple viruses, and also found that the BOTH the odds of any one mite carrying a virus and the odds of infecting a bee larvae with a virus are each roughly equal to a coin flip. So, given brood cells with one mite entering, versus those where 2, 3, or 4 entering the cell, the odds of the bee larvae (and the other mites in the same cell) being infected with any one virus approach 100% on this easy to recall schedule: 1 Mite = 25% chance of bee larvae infection 2 Mites = 50% 3 Mites = 75% 4 Mites = 100% Dr. Chang's work also appears to prove that colonies that have viruses are always colonies that have varroa. The ability to reliably analyze individual mites and individual larvae for multiple specific viruses using these molecular techniques is very impressive. I'd guess that it will be "the advance of the year", if not the decade. This is the "smoking gun". I'm not at all easy to impress, and I was blown away by what I saw. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:18:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: FW: HEALTH HAZARD ALERT (chloramphenicol) / AVERTISSEMENT DE DANGER POUR LA =?iso-8859-1?Q?SANT=C9_=28chloramph=E9nicol=29?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- Sent: 2003-Jun-22 1:45 PM Subject: FW: 20030621- HEALTH HAZARD ALERT (chloramphenicol) / AVERTISSEMENT DE DANGER POUR LA SANT=C9 (chloramph=E9nicol) HEALTH HAZARD ALERT - CERTAIN DICKINSON'S BRAND HONEY MAY CONTAIN CHLORAMPHENICOL OTTAWA, June 21, 2003 - The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) and The Dickinson Family Inc. are warning consumers not to consume certain Dickinson's brand honey which may contain chloramphenicol, an antibiotic which may pose a human health risk. The affected product was distributed to food service establishments and hotels. There were no sales through retail stores. Although this product=20 was not sold at the retail level, some consumers may have obtained this=20 product from food service establishments or hotels for home use. The affected product can be identified from the label which reads Dickinson's Honey, # 1 White Liquid, Distributed by The Dickinson Family Inc., Salinas, CA, 93901, U.S.A.. This product is packaged in 32 g=20 glass bottles bearing codes 72C11, 72E13, and 72F14. The affected product, imported from United States of America, is being voluntarily recalled from the marketplace. This product has been distributed nationally. Chloramphenicol is an antibiotic which is not permitted for use in Canada=20 in food producing animals, including bees. The presence of chloramphenicol=20 in honey poses a risk (although small) of a serious blood disorder known as aplastic anaemia. There have been no reported illnesses associated with the consumption of this product. The CFIA is monitoring the effectiveness of the recall. For more information, consumers and industry can call one of the following numbers: The Dickinson Family Inc. at 1-330-684-3332. - 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. EST=20 - Monday to Friday; CFIA at 1-800-442-2342. - 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. local time - Monday to Friday. For information on receiving recalls by electronic mail, or for other food safety facts, visit our web site at www.inspection.gc.ca . * 30 - Media enquiries: Dickinson Family Inc. 1-330-684-3332 Davendra Sharma (English) Canadian Food Inspection Agency Office of Food Safety and Recall (613) 755-2890 Linda LeBlanc (French) Canadian Food Inspection Agency Office of Food Safety and Recall (613 ) 760-4112 ***************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:23:59 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: [Bee-L] Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim and co. > according to Prof Mark Winston of Simon Fraser Univ > It is the viruses vectored by varooa that kill. So what is being said and suggested is: Theoretically that if the virues are kept out - then the number of varroa mites in a colony does not matter? If so, pity about not being able to lay into the viruses! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BBEE-L=5D_FW:_HEALTH_HAZARD_ALERT_=28chloramphenic?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ol=29_/_AVERTISSEMENT______________DE______________DANGER_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?POUR_LA_SANT=C9_=28chloramph=E9nicol=29?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The affected product, imported from United States of America, is being voluntarily recalled from the marketplace. Although the above may have been imported from the U.S. the above is obviously CHINA honey. This product has been distributed nationally. Chloramphenicol is an antibiotic which is not permitted for use in Canada in food producing animals, including bees. The same is true for the U.S. & the U.K.. I also have never heard of a honey with U.S.origin contaminated with chloramphenicol. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote: Not only do mites transmit viruses to bees, but mites also transmit viruses to other mites via bee larvae. Old news! Jim said: . Chang's work also appears to prove that colonies that have viruses are always colonies that have varroa. The above hypothesis would be hard to prove as all colonies now in most areas carry a varroa load and it was Dr. Shiminuki's opinion and mine that the spread of viral infections progressed directly in porportion with the increase in varroa load in the hive. Jim said: I'd guess that it will be "the advance of the year", if not the decade. Bailey proved the above at least to myself and I believe Dr. Shiminuki (head of Beltsville when varroa arrived) years ago (late 1980's). Now comes the question we all asked ourselves back in the late 1980's and I suppose this discussion is headed to. WHEN WE CAN'T EVEN CONTROL MANY VIRAL INFECTIONS IN HUMANS HOW ARE WE GOING TO CONTROL VIRAL INFECTIONS IN HONEY BEES? The general consensus back in the late 1980's was to put a name on the problem *PMS* (U.S.D.A. in the U.S.) and realize than when you get open sores from varroa sucking blood and varroa carrying viruses you are going to get all of the problems talked about by Jim and others. When we took the discussion to its conclusion we found the virus information *interesting* but only a symptom of advance varroa infestation and we saw *no solution*. If there is a solution I would be interested as through private emails from the U.K. with the researchers continuing the work of Bailey they believe bees can survive varroa if it were not for the viral infections but how do we cure the viral infections? Take these pills and if not better call the beekeeper back in the morning ! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:14:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the input Jim & Tim. I realize that my question was a bit over-simplified, but I guess we all long for simplistic solutions to Varroa. As to threshold evaluation, it seems to me that a simple 9-celled matrix of approximate mite thresholds could be developed easily with the available data. As discussed in numerous threads and studies, there are three primary seasons of concern: Winter (Nov-Feb), Summer (May-Aug), and Spring/Fall (Mar/Apr or Sep/Oct). Likewise, there are ostensibly three primary size groups for hives: 1) Nuc or package 2) Intermediate (single story/developing nuc) 3) Mature Hive. Using Delaplane/Hood's data (1 story Langstroth, 24,000 bees +/-, lower mite "Action" threshold of 3,172 mites), the following matrix appears: Hive Size --> 1 2 3 ----------------------------- Summer | 52 | 105 | 210 | |---------------------------- Spring/Fall | 15 | 31 | 62 | |---------------------------- Winter | 4 | 8 | 16 | ------------------------------ The resultant numbers are 24 hr natural drop, based on an averaged ratio of: 1 mite drop = 30 mites in the hive, Summer. 1 mite drop = 100 in hive Spring/Fall 1 mite drop = 400 in hive Winter. Hive sizes are 12,000/24,000/48,000 bees, respectively. Obviously, we can adjust the matrix for differing populations. Obviously, mitigating factors would have to be considered (e.g. overwintered hives hit by a hard winter might fall back to a category 2 or 1 hive), but I would think that such a system would allow for quick *reasonable* asessments. These ratios come from both Delaplane/Hood's data, as well as numbers used in Bee-L archives. This is just a *very* quick arrangement of data. With a little careful analysis, I should think that a very useable guideline matrix should come out of the wealth of knowledge and experience on this list. At the least, it would be of value to beginners who don't have a feel for what "looks" right. I also found Jim's references to Wyatt Mangum's comparison of natural drop vs. Apistan drop interesting - I was thinking of doing the same. I was also considering a two day study - 1) natural 24 hr drop 2) comparison of 24 hr drop w/Apistan vs. Oxalic acid vapor application between hives of similar size and infestation based on previous 24 hr natural drop (caveat - oxalic acid drops would be monitored over longer period due to acid's slower action). any thoughts? (a dangerous question, I know :)) Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:16:16 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) I said: >> Not only do mites transmit viruses to bees, but mites >> also transmit viruses to other mites via bee larvae. Bob said: > Old news! Old SPECULATION. This is clear and compelling proof. Big difference. >> Chen's work also appears to prove that colonies that have >> viruses are always colonies that have varroa. > The above hypothesis would be hard to prove as all colonies now in most > areas carry a varroa load and it was Dr. Shiminuki's opinion and mine that > the spread of viral infections progressed directly in proportion with the > increase in varroa load in the hive. I'm sure that the work was hard and tedious, but when you can introduce mites "by hand" to individual brood cells, take individual mites and larvae and test them and see the results, it is not "hard to prove". >From what I saw, it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt, and further, beyond many unreasonable doubts. I saw electrophoresis gels, I saw charts of data. Both were easy to understand. > Bailey proved the above at least to myself and I believe Dr. Shiminuki > (head of Beltsville when varroa arrived) years ago (late 1980's). Well, now that the lab now has a real microbiologist/virologist, and the equipment has improved so much over 20 years, we can hope for some real progress. Perhaps Shim and Bailey had a high degree of certainty, but what we have now is mite by mite, larvae by larvae, virus by virus evidence. They are not guessing at all. They are seeing specifics. This is the big advantage to having scientists who are not traditional "bee scientists" working on bees. When all you have is entomologists, you may not have anyone who can do molecular work like this. > When we took the discussion to its conclusion we found the virus > information *interesting* but only a symptom of advance varroa > infestation and we saw *no solution*. Well, it is clear that there is much less chance of viruses being spread when there is only one mite per brood cell, which in itself is a very interesting approach to the whole idea of "treatment thresholds". Sadly, no, there is no magic wand to wave at an apiary and "solve the problem" yet. There is no panacea. But the fact that someone can track/watch these individual viruses in near real-time on a very specific basis is a very important thing, a tool that may advance knowledge to the point where actual solutions appear. Trust me, it is a very significant step. The difference is as if for decades we would say vague general things like "there are lots of cars going by" and suddenly we now can get a complete list of the year, make, model, color, serial number, and speed of each car. "Know the enemy" is a powerful concept. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd said: any thoughts? (a dangerous question, I know : Dr. shiminuki (retired head of Beltsville ) and Dr. Marion Ellis (commercial beekeeper and teaches Master Beekeeping course in Nebraska) were both asked by me several times in one year (years ago) to give a exact figure for varroa threshold. Both would not as too many variables both said. When pressed they tossed out a few figures and then went into a long discussion of the varables. Were they not right? In Savannah at the ABF convention (and in the American Bee Journal) Dr. Delaplane did give exact figures. Dr. Delaplane has had problems ever since as (as Jim pointed out) the variables of varroa and hives are to great. The figures in the post coming from Dr. delaplane would not be correct for my area but I have not a doubt they would work for beekeeping in Georgia. Areas and winters differ. I am an admirer of "Shim", Marion and Dr. Delaplane. I knew when a threshold number figure was given by Delaplane that problems would crop up. The threhold numbers quoted by Delaplane were from tests run in Georgia. They are *general guidelines* and in the ball park. What else could we ask for? General guidelines in my opinion are the best we will get. I respect Dr. Delaplane for putting his opinion of *threshold* in print but would (and have in my presentations) taken the approach of Dr. Shiminuki & Dr. Ellis. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:36:09 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim appears to be ecstatic, Bob on the other hand phlegmatic regarding the work done on viral infection/mites as done by Prof. Winston and others. Ability to put this knowledge into effective use for the benefit of beekeepers appears to be about zero at present. Therefore, questions may arise on why this type of work is so interesting. It might attract comments like " again waste of funds that could be placed in a more rewarding project". It may also be suggested that this type of research appears to be leading to a similar impasse as found with AFB. We know what AFB is, what it does, how it works etc. BUT still can't overcome the agent. Why? Because, even though we can understand the problem - we have not yet developed the tools/ materials that control it without compromising either the bees or the final product (contamination and health risks). Here with this recent data release, we appear to have a better understanding of mite/ virus/ infection relationship. But, even with this in hand, the basic problem remains - how to get a control on the situation. But putting mouth and money down, I side with Jim (but understand Bob) - to advance and change potential into actuality requires "solid" knowledge - such as the above mentioned information, even when it does not always allow applied development to occur immediately, or in a previously recognised direction. (A little like knowing how birds fly - but no being able to do the same - until new materials were discovered and developed at a later date. We still can't fly - but we have machines that can do the hard work for us!). To deviate slightly: Knowing which protein (if it is a protein!) glues AFB scale to comb isn't much use by itself - but if this information is allied to other knowledge (design in targeted protease applications) + development of easy deliverance techniques, a novel control method for AFB might result. At the present we can't control viruses to any fair degree, but if methodology is discovered, the knowledge relating to bees/viruses/mites will be essential. I do think that we are at a stage where data collection is progressing at a great speed - and in the future, many techniques will be put forward for the use of such. The difficulty appears to be foreseeing the consequences of these future applications. I fear that time and financial resources will not be given before applications are instigated in conditions where stepping back will be possible. So, keep on collecting data - even if it appears to be of academic use. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:35:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa controls update (U.S.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Api Life Var has been given section 18 in these selected states so far: Indiana, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, South Carolina and Utah. EPA registers new class of insecticide( sucrose Octanoate Esters) for varroa control ( EPA registration #70950). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:54:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/06/03 05:04:07 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << simple rule of thumb for what I would call an "action" threshold. When doing a 24 hour mite drop count (with varroa screen/sticky board), = is there any consensus on what count should prompt treatment? >> Look on the BBKA website. That gives guidance for UK conditions. No doubt your own local conditions will vary from this, but it's a start and may suffice as a rough and ready rule until you can refine it. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Varroa Thresholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Said: > Areas and winters differ Understood, but that doesn't mean that a useable guideline can't be designed. I live in USDA Zone 4, which gives a *general* guideline on what plants will survive a winter here. Factor in microclimate & soil type, and you have a pretty good idea of what plants will grow in my back yard. I see no reason why a similar *rough* guideline couldn't be established for varroa assessment within a given USDA zone. The obvious caveat with this idea is the same as USDA Zone ratings - your mileage may vary. If we don't try to arrive at some sort of simple, systematic way of interpreting mite counts, then those who bother with bottom screens and detector boards are essentially estimating mite levels in terms like "I don't see any", "There's some", "Hmmmmm...", and "Oh Sh**..." > The threhold numbers quoted by Delaplane were from tests run in Georgia. > They are *general guidelines* and in the ball park. What else could we ask > for? A *rough* guideline simple enough to do quick evaluations at the hive would be nice (as would plug & play general formulas tested for each zone/season). Example - A 1st year hive in Vermont, July 25th, 1 1/2 deeps well filled, 15 mites/24 hr drop - what does this mean? That was my thinking behind a simple matrix. Doubtless that such a simplified model is not always going to be on the mark, but neither is a non-system. I understand that this sort of evaluation is probably not likely to be of great interest to major commercial beekeepers, who are pretty much forced to medicate twice yearly (and medicate with something which provides peace of mind). I think that the application here is more for hobby/sideliners (like myself) who are trying to avoid heavy chemical treatments if we can. If we combine active evaluation with short, spot treatments between flows (like oxalic acid vapor), it's possible that effective control might be obtained with a minimum of "heavy artillery", which just might help buy some more time before resistance sets in. Just thinking out loud, and trying to be constructive. Todd. p.s. - Please forgive my anal-retentive tendencies when it comes to data, but I used to be a database programmer in another life. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:04:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, it is clear that there is much less chance of viruses being > spread when there is only one mite per brood cell, which in > itself is a very interesting approach to the whole idea of > "treatment thresholds". I guess this confirms the intuitive understanding of those of use who are uncomfortable approaching the published threshholds too closely and feel more comfortable at levels below 1 or 2% as measured by an alcohol wash. It seems obvious that, as the ratio of phoretic adult mites to the number of cells of open brood increases, the probability of multiple infestation in any given cell increases. We know that, regardless of the virus problem, multiple vampires are going to do more serious damage to a larva/pupa, so we instinctively avoid mite levels where it becomes statistically probable that multiple mites will enter cells on more than an occasional basis for reasons having little to do with viruses. For geometric reasons, I would think the probability of multiple mites entering a cell is not linearly related to mite/cell ratio, but will climb more rapidly than mite numbers as infestion rates increase. I believe also that I have heard that the mother mites tend to seek out unoccupied cells in preference to those already containing a foundress mite. Whether or not this is true, at low mite loads, the probability of multiple mites infesting a cell is low. That seems to mean to me that there is some tipping point at which things get bad very rapidly, but below which the mites and bees can co-exist. Results of many studies seem to indicate (empirically) that this point is somewhere around 5 mites per 100 bees as measured by alcohol wash. The know mite tolerant strains of bees seem to be able to stay at the 5-6% level and below. Formic and other 'soft' treatments seem to work better where initial mite levels are below 5%, but quickly become ineffective if the initial mite load is much above that point. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) In-Reply-To: <004c01c339cf$4eaa4120$62ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > EPA registers new class of insecticide( sucrose Octanoate Esters) for varroa > control ( EPA registration #70950). > > Bob Bob ,this is the first I have heard of this.A quick google search brought up this info: Seems it is sprayed on the combs in a water solution.It is a contact poison with little residual action so 3 treatments are required.Very labor intensive,but that seems to be the trend.Any data on toxicity to the bees or brood? ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:42:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Tractor-Trailer In Missouri Spills Bees Folks, Another bee traffic jam, http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/2286651/detail.html, which in this case about 500 hives were spilled in traffic. Perhaps the incidents that we hace seen over this list during the past 6 months or so should give creedance that this sort of thing can happen anywhere, anytime, and with any type of vehicle. State and local beekeeping organizations should have an emergency plan worked out with local and state authorities should an accident occur with a vehicle carrying hives. Beekeepers on call can help clean up the mess faster and better than most HAZMAT teams and most likely will strive to save as many bees as possible. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:50:10 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James Fischer: Explain how a "locality odor" gets back to the hive on a single bee, and explain how the other bees can detect this odor on the bee among all the other odors on all the other bees that have arrived within the last few minutes. Julian O'Dea: A bee that dances attracts other bees that detect the odour on the bee. Canberra, Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:21:04 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor Weatherhead offered some good advice: > Have you tried the Chinese grafting tools? Yes, i have. I found the pen even better. I do not believe that transferring the larvae is my problem. I found it easy to pick the smallest larva and i got the same results when i used the Jenter box, which is more or less foolproof. I have taken care to keep the larvae out of the sun and warm and in a humid environment. > Why are you using cell protectors? Unless conditions are very bad, the > finishing colony should not pull them down. I use them primarily because if i don't, the frame will be covered with drawn comb and i'll have to cut the cells out. Am i doing something wrong here? When the flow is on, my bees build comb... What do you mean by "conditions are very bad"? Lack of space? > If the larvae are still white then they have a day or so to go to hatch. If > it is the day they are due to hatch they should be starting to turn brown. I have cut the cells open 17-18 days after the egg was laid. The queens should be fully developed and hatched by then, right? > Are they getting chilled because of the cell protectors? Don't know. Will the few millimeters of air around the cell becuse of the protectors cause this? The cell is still in the middle of a strong colony. But i really think the protector step of the process is my problem. If someone could tell me how to avoid the comb buildup, i'd skip the protectors and take the risk of an early queen ripping open the other cells. I have pretty good control over hatching timing. > Have you had the "mess" checked for black queen cell virus? Your > description seems to fit BQCV. Also have it checked for European foulbrood. > EFB can kill queen larvae. No, i haven't. If it happens again, i certainly will. > Have you ever tried the "Cloake" method of queen rearing? It was developed > by Harry Cloake from New Zealand and uses the one colony for starting and > finishing. I use a slight variation on it. No, i haven't. I'd be happy to try it, but i'd like to get the standard methods working a couple of times first. Where can i learn more about this method. /Mats Andersson ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:29:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: spilled bees in PA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By ELIZABETH EVANS Emergency crews arenít often overheard quoting the Bard. But Fairview Township firefighters were moved to verse early this morning when 100,000 honeybees escaped from their trailer on the Pennsylvania Turnpike just across the York County border in Lower Allen Township, Cumberland County. ìThey were saying it was a Shakespearean event,î firefighter and engine-driver Steve Smith said. ìYou know ó ëTo bee or not to bee, that is the question.íî Not to bee. Smith and other firefighters were called to the scene to destroy the errant bees, on orders from the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, state police said. Troopers from the Highspire barracks said beekeeper Thomas Lee Cook of Hatfield, Montgomery County, was transporting several hives westbound the trailer holding the bees detached from his minivan and bounced along the highway. The bouncing irritated the honeybees, several of which stung Cook, police said. Because of the number of loose, annoyed bees, troopers called PEMA for advice and were told to have firefighters destroy the bees because if they swarmed they could pose a danger to humans, police said. ìWe used firefighting foam, the same foam we use for car fires,î Smith said. ìIt inhibits the flow of oxygen, which is how it works on car fires.î Not too many firefighters ventured close enough to get a good look at the hives, said Smith. ìWe were probably there about an hour, but a lot of us kept our distance,î he said. ìSomeone whoís been with the (fire) department for many years said this was a first.î After the bees were euthanized, the trailer was towed away and Cook drove off in his minivan, police said. The turnpike was closed for 35 minutes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:01:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am extremely inexperienced in Queen raising. However I had the same problems with my first grafts. I noticed that the larvae while still imbedded in the royal jelly had the appearance of chilled brood. At the time I was installing cell protectors as soon as the cell was capped. I now install the cell protectors a couple of days before emergence and have solved that problem. Allen asked about brood temperature often I only include capped brood or emerging brood in with my grafts. Could it be that the hive will allow lower temperatures for capped or emerging brood? Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries Nappanee, IN USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:30:01 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone wrote: > > these bees should be obtained by shaking from the brood nest... And Allen warned: > Remember, folks, that those frames you are shaking may contain pupae at > a delicate stage. > > Maybe not all the deformed wings we see on bees at the entrances are due > to varroa or a virus. > May i suggest an alternative. (I will humbly accept getting slammed if there are any faults in this method). Isn't a combination of smoking and drumming a better way to get bees into a new box? Me and a friend tried this to make up a starter: we put a box of empty frames on top of the brood nest with an excluder between and then smoked the bees from the entrance while tapping on the brood nest. Within minutes, bees poured through the excluder and filled up the empty box. No risk of getting the queen in there and no shaking of brood in delicate age. Is this bad? Is the smoke worse than the shaking for uncapped larva? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:49:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Tractor-Trailer In Missouri Spills Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The spill cleanup was finnished yesterday but a few thousand remain at the crash site. Being a slow news day our local misinformed TV stations reported this morning the following about the remaining loose bees. Not to worry! Beekeepers sedate remaining bees with smoke! about the cleanup: Roads were not closed. Beekeepers worked all night to remove wreckage and non stop till the operation was complete. If our highway patrol and local non beekeeper help were used to remove the bees and wreckage would the operation have been called a *major sting operation*? It is amazing that on a slow news day a bee truck wreck without injuries would make CNN. Not one station pointed out the valuable pollination value of bees. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Tractor-Trailer In Missouri Spills Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee Folks: Chuck’s suggestion—-that we beekeepers organize ourselves for emergency bee rescue operation—-is excellent. I certainly would help out any beekeeper having such massive spill on the highways in my area; my numbers are listed with 911, police/fire stations, and OSU extension offices in Oklahoma. Granted “manure” happens in life, let us remind ourselves, nevertheless, that it was not the bees that caused the news-making event—- regardless of the circumstance. Yoon Shawnee, People’s Republic of Oklahoma :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Mats wrote in part: "I use them primarily because if i don't, the frame will be covered with drawn comb and i'll have to cut the cells out. Am i doing something wrong here? When the flow is on, my bees build comb." Mats around here ( MN USA ) we get pretty fairly intense nectar flows and the bees don't seem to like to raise queens on a good flow - they seem to concentrate on the flow instead of other activities. Can you move your queen rearing to either before or after the more intense nectar flow? Here we can rear queens before the main flow and after but during the flow is not easy and the results are poor. Just a thought. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: spilled bees in PA To All, It is a shame that the "Emergency Folks" in PA gave a death sentence to a small trailer of hives which had been pulled by a minivan while in Missouri where about 500 hives were spilled off a big tractor-trailer a great amount of effort and co-ordination was generated by various govt. agencies and beekeepers with the goal to save as many bees as possible. The situation in PA sheds light on the importance of beekeepers being involved with planning for such spills on both the local and the state level. If we as beekeepers do not get involved such actions as those by the PEMA folks in PA will continue to happen in PA and other states, and a beekeeper's bees will likely be destroyed rather than given the opportunity to be saved. Chuck Norton :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:21:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) Bob Harrison wrote: If there is a solution I would be interested as through private emails from the U.K. with the researchers continuing the work of Bailey they believe bees can survive varroa if it were not for the viral infections but how do we cure the viral infections? Infections which are spread trough brood can be stopped with cancellation of brood. Jim Fisher in his report from Delaplane and Hood lectures said that: "even 'hygienic queens' and screen bottom boards will not control varroa when used together". Something is missing here... In my management against varroa I include moving bees on mountains. Why? Because at high elevations they stop with brood rearing early - and because I use screen bottom boards, cancellation of brood rearing is even faster with first cold night temperatures, and, ...because it is most convenient way (technic) for me to cancel the brood and save the winter bees. (There is other technics, of course!) One strange thing happened last year - and this is totally anecdotal observation: along all season, starting from spring I had high levels of deformed wing virus - bees with deformed wings coming out from my colonies trough all day long - and still they were very strong, made extra honey, and after treatment with fluvalinate in late august (after honey harvest, I treat only once a year) they wintered exceptionally well. It seams to me that not all bees (subfamilies) are equally subjected to viral infections. I must point out again: (early) cancellation of brood rearing is PRIME factor in fighting against varroa and viruses. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:56:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Sourwood question In-Reply-To: <009c01c33a3e$44cd6280$62ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been told that Sourwood will only produce enough nectar for honey at "high" elevations. Thus, those in Knoxville, TN that want sourwood honey move their bees to some mountainous region (usually the Cumberland Plateau, about 45 miles away) around July 1. Having driven through that area for several hours yesterday, I did see "some" sourwood (ok, maybe 6 total, all of which had started blooming, so it is early this year) and quite a bit of sumac (hundreds, also, just started blooming, but a lot of it in bud). Standing on my back porch, however, I an nearly touch 3 sourwood trees, all starting to bloom or send out blooms, that were randomly left when we cut trees to build several years ago (when we had no bees and paid little attention to saving any in particular). I am at the north edge of Knox County, at 1330 ft elevation (atop a ridge line) and imagine that there are probably more sourwood that my three in the undeveloped and unlogged forests covering this ridge and the next one (which extend much beyond the bees range). This area is well inside the native range and the tree mix is textbook for companion trees (tulip poplar, maple, dogwood, redbud, oaks, sassafras, wild cherry, black walnut, hickory and other hardwoods). I have noticed that my honey never seems to crystalize (a sample from 4 years ago, at room temp, kept for its darker color still has not) and that my bees keep working for about 3 weeks after others in Knox county tell me "everything is over" (which also happens to be when sourwood is in bloom). I can also see a few bees in the tree tops, "checking out" the blooms, but do not know if they are finding anything yet, as very few of the blooms have opened. I have no intention of labeling my honey as anything other than "wildflower" (although tulip poplar is usually a dominant component), but have a question: Is there any documented "proof" that sourwood at this elevation does not produce nectar (enough for some honey crop)? If so, what is the minimum elevation needed? Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:53:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: raising queens, packages In-Reply-To: <20030624063001.FPDI7561.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.ne t> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:30 AM 6/24/03 +0200, you wrote: >Isn't a combination of smoking and drumming a better way to get bees into >a new box? I know someone who makes package bees this way. He takes off the inner cover, puts a queen excluder and a super on top. He then smokes them from the bottom with some bee go in the smoker to drive them up. Then just shake the frames from the super into the package. No need to spend time finding the queen. I do not know exactly how he uses bee go in the smoker. I'm assuming he puts a wad of newspaper with a little bit of bee go/honey robber in the top of his smoker. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:08:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour Julian O'Dea said: >> James Fischer: >> Explain how a "locality odor" gets back to the hive on a >> single bee, and explain how the other bees can detect this >> odor on the bee among all the other odors on all the other >> bees that have arrived within the last few minutes. > Julian O'Dea: A bee that dances attracts other bees that > detect the odour on the bee. Not at all responsive, given the detail level of the question, and the number of related questions posed. Let's break just this one question down into easier pieces in hopes of getting specific and responsive answers: a) Explain how a "locality odor" gets back to the hive b) on a single bee c) explain how the other bees can detect this odor on the bee among all the other odors on all the other bees. But let's also go further, given the response offered: d) Is direct contact required to detect the odor? e) If not, how can the dancing bee's odor be isolated from the odors of the other nearby bees? f) If direct contact IS required, how then do bees that never make direct contact with the dancing bee happen to make a foraging sortie, and arrive at (roughly) the same place? These are very basic questions about the mechanism claimed to be at work. The answers should be easy. So should be comparing them to observations. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:51:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: fishin line instead of wire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Time, pc.direktservice@SWIPNET.SE writes: > these little extra metal inserts (or what they may be called your end of > the bath-tub) > had been used. > the catalogs call them "eyelets." Kathy Cox, N, California, 21 colonies :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:21:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Free Swarm Near Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loretta Moreno called me to say she has a large swarm in her garage, 15 minutes west of Boston. She called the Mass Beekeepers Assn and left messages, but got no response. My son lives about an hour south of Boston, but that's a long drive, and besides, I don't think he keeps bees these days. Anyone interested? Call Loretta at 617-694-6933 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:45:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison wrote: > If there is a solution I would be interested as through private emails from > the U.K. with the researchers continuing the work of Bailey they believe > bees can survive varroa if it were not for the viral infections but how do > we cure the viral infections? This looks dangerously imprecise. Are we not in danger of setting a whole new load of hares running - uselessly in circles? Individual bees do survive varooa - in the sense that predated larvae still turn into alive adult bees. But those bees are underweight (although weight increases after emergence, according to Winston) and also have reduced life expectancy. So the effect of varooa is to reduce the economic efficiency of the colony - the amount of return obtained from the energy needed to raise a bee. The effect increases with the degree of infestation - at some point, the colony becomes economically unviable , declines and eventually dies out. There is NO mechanism that restrains the varooa population to a level that where the energy losses are just affordable - and if there were, colonies would survive but produce no surplus honey. It is surely impossible to eliminate viruses . Viruses are endemic in colonies but (without varooa) the mechanisms for transfer are such that they rarely increase to a level that results in death of the colony. But viruses do weaken or kill adult bees outright. Since viruses are always with us, at low levels, but increase rapidly as the numbers of varooa rise, we are where we always were - the number of varooa have to be kept low. The significance of Winston et al ' studies is that it is wrong to think that varooa do not matter until a theshold is reached - varooa at any level weaken the colony thru increasing virus. So rather than looking for a better bullet to kill out varooa once a year , we need to find ways to make the hive environment more hostile to varooa all thru the year, so that the population always stays small. We don't yet have sufficiently effective methods / substances, but open mesh floors and volatile oils are perhaps pointers. Rothamsted in UK are testing fungi that kill mites - how those would be made a permanent feature within the hive environment we do not yet know. Having failed to find ways kill varooa effectively and safely with all sorts of poisons (apart from fluvalinate), please let us be spared a fresh wave of dangerous amateur experiments, this time aiming to kill viruses on honey bees! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:57:34 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote > What do you mean by "conditions are very bad"? Lack of space? No. By bad conditions I mean not a lot of nectar or pollen coming in. I know of beekeepers who have reared queen cells and put them in finishing colonies under such conditions. The bees, above the excluder, have pulled the queen cells down. In your case, if conditions are OK then this should not happen > I have cut the cells open 17-18 days after the egg was laid. The queens should be fully >developed and hatched by then, right? Right. I have seen under very cold conditions, queens not hatch till about day 17. > If someone could tell me how to avoid the comb buildup, i'd skip the protectors and take > the risk of an early queen ripping open the other cells. I have pretty good control over > hatching timing. The post from Bland White is a good one about rearing queens, or not rearing them on a honey flow. I remember reading an article by Steve Taber about not rearing queens on honey flows. We occasionally get this build up of burr comb but I have found that if you give them foundation plus an extra super, they will not build as much burr comb. It doesn't stop it but lessenes it. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sourwood question Karen Oland said: > I have been told that Sourwood will only produce enough nectar > for honey at "high" elevations. I think it would be more accurate to say that Sourwood tends to grow more densely at "high elevations", and/or in the larger forests that are "cut" by loggers, like the US Eastern National Forests. Therefore, there simply are not enough good stands of trees at lower elevations to make the effort of placing hives for a unifloral crop "worthwhile". But elevation alone is not a real issue. I planted a few Sourwood trees along a river that runs along one of my fields, and they clearly are producing nectar at a mere 902 feet above sea level with a tree height of only 10 feet or so. The bees love 'em. Maybe in a few years, there will be enough blossoms to fill entire supers. Sourwood is an "opportunistic plant", one that quick appears after fires and after clear-cuts. Therefore, if you want to find a good stand of Sourwood, you have to ask a Forest Ranger to scribble on a topo map where clear cuts and fires were 5 to 10 years ago. Of course, you have to do your legwork, checking out the areas to find a decent stand of sourwood near a passable fire road. If the road is terrible, you can get a permit to "repair" the road at your own expense (drive a dozer along it to fill in the worst potholes and ruts), eliminate the area from your consideration, or invest a better off-road vehicle for hauling your hives, like perhaps an M1-A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/images/abram13.jpg Then comes the permits to put hives in the National Forest, and the creation of "bear-proof" enclosures for your hives. Then comes getting keys for the locked gates that block the fire roads. About the only positive note is that by the time Sourwood blooms, those dirt roads are much drier than the muddy tracks and "unfinished swimming pools" one encounters in spring pollination work Maybe beekeepers in TN have an easier time of it. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Sourwood question "I think it would be more accurate to say that Sourwood tends to grow more densely at "high elevations", and/or in the larger forests that are "cut" by loggers, like the US Eastern National Forests." Keith Delaplane reports that there is a very big difference in nectar production of this tree at higher elevations. He didn't say why, but there are a number of possible reasons. For instance, you can't grow cherries where I live because there are not enough hours of cold. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said: We occasionally get this build up of burr comb but I have found that if you give them foundation plus an extra super, they will not build as much burr comb. It doesn't stop it but lessenes it. We never worry about the burr comb. Cut and save the best cells and move on but then time is precious for us. We would never give a cell starter colony (queenless bees) foundation but find interesting the ways others raise queens. Actually we never give our Finish colonies foundation either. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) Robin Dartington said: > Are we not in danger of setting a whole new load of hares running - > uselessly in circles? Only if one considers knowing more about a problem to be a useless distraction. :) > There is NO mechanism that restrains the varooa population to a level > that where the energy losses are just affordable - and if there were, > colonies would survive but produce no surplus honey. There are colonies that survive low-level varroa infestations over the long term and produce adequate crops. This would appear to be an acceptable "restraint of varroa population". We just don't know how to assure all colonies such conditions. Not yet, anyway. > It is surely impossible to eliminate viruses. Have you pulled up http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ and typed "antiviral" into the search box? It appears that practical antivirals are a growth area, with more than 30 clinical trials currently recruiting participants in the USA. Yes, these studies are for humans, not bees or mites, but look at the technology spin-off from human research that allows the mapping of the "beenome" and Dr. Chen's work. The advances made in other areas of science can and do apply to bees and mites. Since there are virus-free bees and virus-free colonies, perhaps the "goal" is to prevent colonies from getting (or spreading) viruses in the first place. It would appear that clear that (more) conservative management of varroa populations can reduce the odds of a colony "getting viruses". > Viruses are endemic in colonies But if not for varroa, it appears that they would be much less endemic. We don't really know the exact percentage of colonies "with viruses" for sure, but techniques like those used by Dr. Chen allow us to do an actual survey to find actual viruses in individual bees, rather than jumping to the (unfounded) conclusion that colonies have viruses based upon mere observation of overt physical symptoms that MAY be caused by viruses, but could be caused by any one of a number of possible causes. > The significance of Winston et al ' studies is that it is wrong to think > that varooa do not matter until a theshold is reached - varooa at any level > weaken the colony thru increasing virus. But the Chen work shows that viruses are not often spread by varroa at a level of infestation equal to a maximum of one varroa mite per brood cell, so varroa at some low level do NOT appear to "weaken the colony thru increasing virus". I would simply say "the acceptable threshold is lower than we suspected", rather than saying that "varroa at any level weaken the colony". > Having failed to find ways kill varooa effectively and safely with all sorts > of poisons (apart from fluvalinate), please let us be spared a fresh wave of > dangerous amateur experiments, this time aiming to kill viruses on honey > bees! I doubt if any "amateur" would attempt to address viruses, but I don't see any potential danger in "amateur experiments". I'd encourage them! Science used to be done by nothing but "amateurs". A paycheck does not make someone a scientist. A paycheck does not even make someone a better scientist. A paycheck merely implies that someone wants a scientist to work on a specific problem. jim (a mere quantum mechanic) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: viral research (was Varroa Thresholds) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison wrote: > If there is a solution I would be interested as through private emails from the U.K. with the researchers continuing the work of Bailey they believe bees can survive varroa if it were not for the viral infections but how do we cure the viral infections? Robin said: This looks dangerously imprecise. Are we not in danger of setting a whole new load of hares running - uselessly in circles? My statement above is taken out of text. Although I appreciate the work of Bailey and research being done in the U.K. I see no cure for viral infections in honey bees and I hope my post reflects my position. The "take these pills and if not better call the beekeeper in the morning " was a joke! Maybe a researcher working with viruses or fungi might find the varroa solution but I am putting my money on a strain of bee which is varroa tolerant or a bee with the SMR trait. I will do whatever it takes to survive until such a bee is bred including the use of the dreaded *hard chemical* fluvalinate. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Fiala Subject: Bee spills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From news reports and comments on this list, one gets the impression that accidents involving truckloads of bees are increasing in frequency in the last few years. Given that the percentage of traffic on the road involving bees must be miniscule, is the true problem that drivers hauling bees are becoming increasingly incompetent? Instead of setting up emergency recovery teams, perhaps we should be promoting driver training. Alan Fiala :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:53:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those never done it using a starter box I have explanation here: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/biodling/startbox-nf.htm Regarding the use of queenright finisher hive; there must be frames with larvae the same age on both sides of the grafted frame. This is to make sure they maintain the temp during the queens development. Then it does not matter if the cell protectors are present. Do not put emerging brood with the queen cells as they will do no good at all. Trevor, we have an intense and short season up here at lat 60 and it is actually easier to rear queens during the honey flow than in spring when there are few bees in the hives. When flow ends in beginning of august bees regard it as autumn and loose all interest in queens..... We have basically 2 months to do it, during this time we also take off and extract the honey. It would bee a lot easier keeping bees in Oz... -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:10:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: Very labor intensive,but that seems to be the trend.Any data on toxicity to the bees or brood? Very little information available. Sounds disruptive to the hive. Remove each frame and soak frame & bees . Repeat in seven days for a total of three treatments. I can see the Missouri beekeeper on an August 100 f. day with a four gallon backpack sprayer strapped on his/her back. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:40:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Sourwood question In-Reply-To: <200306250048.h5P0Oh3Y020830@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Tim Vaughan > Keith Delaplane reports that there is a very big difference in nectar > production of this tree at higher elevations. He didn't say why, but there > are a number of possible reasons. For instance, you can't grow cherries > where I live because there are not enough hours of cold. I have heard the same. But, I can report that the bumblebees seem to think mine are worth working. Since my trees are approx 25-30' tall (taller than crest of house, three floors including basement, which is same level as ground trees are on), binoculars are required to check the blooms. It looks like there are some honeybees (and some even smaller), but the bumbles are quite clear and are working the blooms. I checked the hives today and there is a greenish nectar coming in currently. I'll have to check some of my books to see if the color matches any of the known blooms here at this time of year (tulip poplar is over, locust is long gone, white clover may be a player, but is getting quite scarce, elderberry nearly done, etc). Since some neighbors have been logging recently, I guess I can expect the drop in tulip poplar to result in better sourwood 5 or 10 years from now. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sourwood question Karen: The greenish nectar you talk about comes from the sumacs, about which you had mentioned abundant and ready to pop in your neck of the woods. In Shawnee, OK, sumacs are now 1/3 in bloom, as well. Incidentally, sumac in Oklahoma seems to replace/substitute basswood in the northeast and sourwood in the southeast. Might as well be happy with what we got. Though I live in zone 7, I am "fixin" to plant a few basswoods on my acrage next year. Do any of you tree experts know a good nursery for the best variety for the south? Of course, I do have plenty of vitex now blooming. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:35:21 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee spills Alan Fiala observed: > From news reports and comments on this list, one gets the impression > that accidents involving truckloads of bees are increasing in frequency > in the last few years. Or, perhaps it is just that the definition of "news" has been degraded by the relatively recent confluence of: a) A glut of 24-hour TV news channels (CNN, FNN, MSNBC, CNBC, Bloomberg, BBC, CBC, Telemundo News, Al-Jazera, ad nauseum) b) The constant drive by these channels to present a never-ending stream of "breaking news" stories, preferably ones that have "good visuals" c) A lack of enough REAL journalism on actual news to fill 24 hours a day d) Growing media consolidation, where the same newsroom creates TV reports, newspaper articles, and news website fodder for what seem to be multiple independent media outlets, resulting in a smaller number of stories appearing "everywhere" All this means that perhaps EVERY bee truck that goes wheels up (which implies "hives down") is now going to get "national exposure". Is it "news"? No more than a story about a beer truck dumping 100,000 cans of beer on the highway, but both types of story are clearly thought by reporters and producers to have "viewer appeal", more as "entertainment" than "news". > is the true problem that drivers hauling bees are becoming increasingly > incompetent? Could it be that such a basic rule as "bee side up" is not front and center in the awareness of the person responsible for delivering the load of bees? Or is the recent trend towards using of traffic-reporting helicopters as live-video camera platforms for coverage of "high speed chases" and major traffic accidents on live TV (a move that was prompted by improvements in "SteadyCam" technology, which eliminates camera shake even under massive vibration) giving everyone the impression that the world, or at least the Los Angeles CA area, is suddenly a much more dangerous place? I think that it is even more simple than that. Nearly everyone has a video camera these days. The digital ones, even the tiny digital ones that sell for about $300 are "broadcast quality". Cameras are cheap, so they are everywhere. The odds of a bystander getting something on video tape are much higher than when video cameras were bulky and expensive. Cameras are so cheap, that when I visit Miami, I can turn on the 24-hour local news station, and see a "traffic report", complete with live video from dozens of cameras permanently installed along the highways and at major intersections. But it should be obvious that beekeepers, like everyone else, are suffering from chronic sleep deprivation, something that reaches the breaking point when they get up very early or stay up very late preparing hives for movement and hauling them around. Check it out- a) How many hours of sleep do you get a night on average? b) Do you sleep longer when you have no commitments on the weekends? c) Do you drink multiple cups of coffee before you "feel normal"? (Why is Starbucks so popular? Could it be that everyone really NEEDS lots of coffee just to get through the day these days?) d) Do you fall asleep with ease on airplanes, in front of baseball games on TV, or when the lights go out for someone to show slides at a beekeeper meeting? e) Are you convinced that 8 hours is the maximum amount of sleep anyone should need, and that sleeping longer is a sign of sloth? f) Why is arising early so admired, and sleeping late looked upon with scorn? (By the same logic, anorexia should be admired, and being adequately fed should be considered a lack of self-discipline.) g) Have you recently bought a new and louder alarm clock? If so, you are sleep-deprived, and you can and will make mistakes, forget things, and perhaps fall asleep at the wheel, perhaps never even waking up during the transition from "sleep" to "eternal sleep". I employ several people who sit at computers and keep watch over networks by night (they are the post-modern biblical shapards). We have found that working "night shift" is a special skill in itself, and not just anyone can "cover" for one of them even during a week of vacation without making errors in reacting to things like equipment failures, denial of service attacks, script-kiddie wannabe "hackers", and so on. Stuff that should be "easy" becomes much more difficult at 3am to a person who has not "adjusted" to a constant nightlife. What is being found out by research with subjects who are given no chance to find out the actual time is that most humans need roughly 10 hours of sleep on average. Some people need more. The "8 hours" rule was developed by the armed forces without any real evidence to support it, just as they developed the hierarchical management structure with "managers" and "chains of command". It seems clear that we are STILL taking casualties as a direct result of World War II. > Instead of setting up emergency recovery teams, perhaps we should be > promoting driver training. Hmmm... the "ABC School of Beekeeping and Tractor-Trailer Driving"? Get your license to drive the big rigs AND a master beekeeping certificate in 2 only months of night-school courses? Maybe with a short seminar on Swinger forklift operation in close quarters and pitch darkness? Extra credit work in high-speed pursuit of swarm calls using borrowed Chevrolet Camaro Z28 9C1s from the Ohio State Police? http://www.modernracer.com/features/chevroletcamarocopfront1.jpg I don't think so. :) jim (who is a caffeine-based lifeform) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:01:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) Spraying the colony takes at least 10 times longer than vaporizing with oxalic acid and the result is the same. A big different is the price, oxalic acid cost only a few cent for each treatment. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:31:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) In-Reply-To: <200306260101.h5Q0bC3S029983@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alfred Meier wrote: > Spraying the colony takes at least 10 times longer than vaporizing with > oxalic acid and the result is the same. A big different is the price, > oxalic acid cost only a few cent for each treatment. The new sucrose octanoate treatment isnt going to be pracical for more than a few colonies,it seems.If the hive could be opened up and a spray sent up and down that could work,but not pulling combs.The oxalic vaporizer looks slower than drizzling,but might be safer.Oxalic is cheaper than cheap,a few lbs for a few bucks.I wouldnt use it for mites,but would be ok for polishing frames.Any data on the new oxalic strips?(to be inserted to allow the bees to polish frames) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: FW: HEALTH HAZARD ALERT (chloramphenicol) / AVERTISSEMENT DE DANGER POUR LA SANTÉ (chloramphénicol) Medhat Nasr said: >> OTTAWA, June 21, 2003 - The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) >> and The Dickinson Family Inc. are warning consumers not to consume >> certain Dickinson's brand honey which may contain chloramphenicol... and Bob Harrison observed: > Although the above may have been imported from the U.S. > the above is obviously CHINA honey. And apparently, Chinese honey that was imported and sat in storage or changed hands several times within the US for quite some time before being packed and distributed. It should be clear to even the casual observer that any/all honey that was contaminated with chloramphenicol has by now been run through the new Chinese "ultrafiltration" process. Accordingly, defensive plays must shift from detecting contaminants to looking at levels of Hydrogen and Oxygen-18 to detect the ultrafiltration. So, update those scorecards, we have the following changes to the lineup: "Contaminated Honey" is now "Honey with no detectable pollen". "Chloramphenicol" is now "Unusual Water Isotope Ratios" Either of the above may also legally be called "Sweeteners Derived From Honey" in the USA, in cases where all concerned fully comply with both the sprit and the letter of the law. ...and that faint but steady clicking you hear is the ratcheting up of the technologies on both sides on the planet to adjust. jim (Who wonders how long it will be before attempts at counterfeit comb honey appear) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Bee-specific Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick question for our collective academics. Are varroa mites a pest specific to honey bees? I am installing an observation hive at a nature center that specializes in raising butterflies. They asked if bee mites will infest butterflies. I felt confident in saying no, but thought I would seek your council to make sure my answer is correct. To me it would seem a very unlikely happening. Was I correct? Larry Krengel Marengo, Illinois USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:34:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BBEE-L=5D_FW:_HEALTH_HAZARD_ALERT_=28chloramphenic?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ol=29_/______________AVERTISSEMENT__DE______________DANGER?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_POUR_LA_SANT=C9_=28chloramph=E9nicol=29?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It should be clear to even the casual observer that any/all honey that > was contaminated with chloramphenicol has by now been run through the > new Chinese "ultrafiltration" process. I understood that the UF process has been in use in the USA for a decade or so, and, as such, is not exclusively a Chinese idea. I clearly recall a NHB rep who attended our Alberta convention, years back, mentioning the ultrafiltration process in his address to our members, and lauding UF's ability to remove undesirable properties from honey that is unattractive due to handling or source, to make it suitable for industrial use. I am not certain that the process actually originated in the USA, but that was the impression I received. At the time, UF was presented as a Good Thing, allowing otherwise low-priced melter honey and other substandard domestic honey to find a market, and encouraging industrial users who were threatening to abandon honey as an ingredient (aren't they always?) to buy a uniform and less expensive honey. Anyhow, I gather that UF has been ongoing, and has only become an issue due to the uproar about Chinese competition, chloramphenicol, and the use of UF to circumvent controls. I wonder how much Chinese -- or other suspicious honey -- has been UFed right in the good ol' USA in recent days? As an interesting aside here, the recent drop in the US dollar is expected to improve competitiveness in US producers who have been under intense price pressure from foreign competitors due to the previously strong dollar. Nonetheless, this relief may not extend to honey producers, since the major competitors -- China and Argentina -- align their currency with the US dollar and thus are expected to continue to move lower, tracking any drop in the greenback. There is a chance, however that those countries may focus their exports more strongly on Europe and other strong currency areas to increase returns, but the US remains a major importer, and thus attractive to them. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:50:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Splits into two-queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm looking for a bit of input here. I've got 3 strong first year hives that seem hell-bent to swarm, and am = getting tired of cutting out queen cells (FWIW all three have/had = caucasian lineage). What I intend to do is this: - transfer queens from original hives to mediums with fully drawn comb - shake down/brush house bees from brood combs into new mediums (about = 1/3 of total) - leave one good queen cell in each original hive/location, and add a = super - place now populated mediums on queen excluder/upper entrance and run = as two-queen hives (maybe with top entrance pointed to the East, as = opposed to the South, as original, lower hive) - wait a day or two, and begin feeding top hives to re-stimulate queen. It would seem that this should simulate a swarm (somewhat like a = Demaree), stop the swarm impulse, and give me the benefit of two-queen = hives with the top hive in mediums rather than deeps (I've been meaning = to switch some hives over to mediums anyway). My questions are: 1) Are there any anticipated problems with immediately placing newly = formed "swarm" hives atop the old? (should I move the mediums for a = while, and then place them on top?) 2) This late in the season, the top hives may not build up to more than = two mediums (although I'm optimistic, and hope for 3). Properly wrapped = and topped off for the winter, would they likely winter well here in = Vermont? Obviously, I'm planning to seperate the two-queen hives for = wintering. 3) Would this likely stop the swarm impulse in the original hives? =20 4) Am I missing anything (i.e. any thoughts?) Many thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:29:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Sucrose Octanoate Esters for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I talked to Jerry Hayes of Dadant a few minutes ago about the new product for control of varroa mites and received the information I was looking for to inform the BEE-L list about the product sucrose octanoate esters. The product will be sold by Dadant through their many U.S. branches starting in 2004. A test market will be done with commercial beekeepers in Florida this fall. I will also be running tests on the product myself this fall. Jerry Hayes has already ran tests on his own bees and is pleased with the results. The product although labor consuming does kill 100% of varroa if applied correctly and in the correct concentration. The product does not kill varroa in sealed cells but neither does our other registered controls. Mike Tooley asked about brood kill. None has been reported so far. The product is similar in use to an insecticidal soap in that it kills varroa either by suffocation or by breaking down the eckoskeleton of varroa. The product quickly breaks down into a fatty acid and sucrose and zero contamination of wax or honey has been reported. Jerry says the product will be inexpensive as you only mix a tablespoon and a half to a gallon of water in a gallon sprayer. The material will keep in the sprayer through the entire treatment period which Jerry says is once a week for three weeks (to get all varroa emerging from cells). By the time the finished label for the product concerning application (2004) is written better ways of application might be figured out with input from commercial beekeepers in Florida . The safety factor should be of great interest to all beekeepers. The product is safe to use by the beekeeper. The product does not contaminate the brood comb (which has been the case with other products) and does not kill queens & brood (a frequent problem with formic acid). The EPA approved a section 3 label very quickly due to the safety aspect of sucrose Octanoate Esters. Although the product will surely appeal to the small hobby beekeeper for many reasons (legal & safe) Dadant hopes the product will appeal to the large commercial beekeeper for the same reasons. Dadant has always tried to provide the beekeeping industry the tools the industry needs to survive. Let us try the product with an open mind and see if perhaps Sucrose Octanoate Esters will work for us. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:22:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Splits into two-queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, You are only rearrainging the problem but you are confining the queen to a area in which she can lay all the eggs on drawn comb she wants so you are solving a major cause of swarming and giving the hive extra space to cluster (another cause of swarming). About a 50% chance of working in my opinion. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Splits into two-queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, A few other scenarios (among many): I should add that when the queen cell hatches below the excluder the bees might swarm with her. Also the queen and third of the bees you shake into the top mediums might swarm as she is obviously slowed laying eggs (if not stopped) and has been preparing to swarm and the box is empty drawn comb. On a cold night in Vermont the bees might go below to cluster around brood and leave the queen above the excluder. We had temps in the 50's F. in Missouri last night. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Splitting hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd asked about the possibility of stopping the swarming impulse by splitting the hives. Todd, we don't live too far from each other. I suspect you are at or just past the point of swarming difficulty. I delay setting up hives for comb honey production until 'now'; I was doing it this morning, in fact. I take hives that have 3 deeps and 2 mediums and shake them down to one deep, or one deep and a medium (depending on the circumstances), and then put 3 Ross Round supers on top. Rarely do I have a swarm. I learned this technique from the largest comb honey producer in the US, who lives in Idaho. As he likes to say 'after July 1, you can put a full hive in a shoebox, and it won't swarm'. There comes a time, and around here it is about July 1, when it is difficult to get the bees to swarm, even though they get overcrowded. Don't know why. But...if you want to make splits and be guaranteed to not have swarming, you have the right thoughts. But instead of making a two-queen hive, take the queen and move her, a foot or a mile. Move all the bees you want when you move her, the foragers will go back to the original hive, and they won't swarm with a new queen. Introduce the new queen at least four hours after removing the old queen. I suggest you give the old location 6 frames of sealed brood, and take any more than that and move it with the old queen. If you want to use a swarm cell instead of a new queen, keep in mind that you will go through a bloodless period of 2-3 weeks...and your new queen might be poorly mated, eaten by a bird, etc. My suggestion is spend $12 or so and get a new queen. Good luck! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: al boehm Subject: sting reaction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit would someone who has been through the anaphylaxis contact me off list I had a nasty time this past weekend and the archives dont answer my question. Thank You Al Boehm Columbus NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) In-Reply-To: <200306260101.h5Q0bC3S029983@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is also another big difference antd this is the biggest. With SO you can spray at anytime of the year which is not the case with oxalic acid (until further noice...). So is just another tool in a multi and integrated approach to varroas buT may be the most important braktrough since many years. Oxalic acid, thymol and all those "natural" products are no news for the rest of the world... nc At 21:01 03-06-25 -0400, you wrote: >Spraying the colony takes at least 10 times longer than vaporizing with >oxalic acid and the result is the same. A big different is the price, >oxalic acid cost only a few cent for each treatment. > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Normand Choinière, VE2QNC Région de Mont-Tremblant, St-Faustin-Lac Carré, Québec, Canada. __________________________________________________ normand.choiniere@consultus.qc.ca http://consultus.qc.ca/choiniere http://valdurn.com http://eurodogs.org http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel __________________________________________________ Besoin de traduction? Need a translation ? http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Normand Choinière, VE2QNC Région de Mont-Tremblant, St-Faustin-Lac Carré, Québec, Canada. __________________________________________________ normand.choiniere@consultus.qc.ca http://consultus.qc.ca/choiniere http://valdurn.com http://eurodogs.org http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel __________________________________________________ Besoin de traduction? Need a translation ? http://babelfish.altavista.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:41:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: Sourwood question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03-06-25 17:33:38 EDT, you write: << Since some neighbors have been logging recently, I guess I can expect the drop in tulip poplar to result in better sourwood 5 or 10 years from now. Karen >> Karen, Dont count on this. Tulip Poplars are another tree that loves clear cuts. There us a map available in on of the old ABJ's that shows Sourwood trees in every county in Tennessee except the northern half of Montgomery and that "notch" on the Kentucky border. Tim Morris South Central Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alfred Meier Subject: Re: varroa controls update (U.S.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Mike you can polish your frames with Oxalic Acid for sure it’s a good wood cleaner. Do you know how the treatment with the vaporizer works? I don’t open the hives when I treat the colonies. Before you start spraying your first hive I have finished at least 4 with my vaporizer. I drilled a 13mm (1/2 inch) hole in each hive cover for the vaporizer hose. I put the transparent hose, approx 1 meter (3ft) in the hole and blow the oxalic acid fog in the colony. As soon the fog comes out of the entrance from the hive I know that the acid has reached everything and I close the entrance with a sponge for 10 mins. I close the hole in the cover with a cork and the work is done. Les than 2 mins each colony and no harm to bees or queen. I have 4 vaporizers in a row on a little stand from aluminum angle and treat 4 colonies in the same time. Without any rush a treat 60 colonies per hour. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:20:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: What To Do with Contaminated Honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentle Folks: Speaking of contaminated honey, I did not know it would hit me, personally, today: I took down a feral hive in the back of a bowling alley yesterday. The owner swore he did not spray the bees ever and he had alleged they just moved in this spring; he said this to reduce the fee--it would be a small job. When I opened up the God’s closet, hidden inside what used to be a window AC unit, now covered up with a rotting plywood, the colony looked about three years old, judging from the various colors of the comb; when I confronted the owner about this fact, he, without acknowledging the number of years they had been there, paid me whatever amount I thought was fair. Later in the evening, however, when I went over there to retrieve the box I had left to collect the bees, one of the employees told me horror stories: he had nightly sprayed the bees all sorts of chemicals imaginable: gasoline, paint thinner, insect spray—-I just do not recall all the stuff he had used in the hope of eradicating the infestation. He admitted that the bees had been there for the last three years, in fact! Despite such chemical baptism, none intended for mites, the bees fared well [maybe fared better than otherwise]: they had packed the cavity with slabs of combs loaded with honey. In fact, I was able to strain two gallons of honey, plus a quart and half. The dark honey, mostly from sumac, tastes exquisite, and still does, till I heard the story. Now I feel I am in deep doo-doo. When I gave some honey-comb to yet another employee earlier, the guy, who had also sworn about non-chemical spray, he just loved the sweet honey, an incident that strengthened my non- contamination belief earlier. How does one go about analyzing a sample? Where should I send it to, Belt lab? If found contaminated, what is the use of such honey since feeding, even after harvest, will further contaminate the juice? What is the long term chemical interaction inside the honey? Left untouched, does it get worse or ameliorated? Would the carcinogenic chemicals turn the "mead" into a killer moonshine, something like White Lightening? I am willing to drain it into the septic if found polluted. It’s a good thing that I did not give that stuff to any. Yet I must confess it tastes damn good. What say you? Thanking you in advance, Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:09:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: sucrose octanoate esters In-Reply-To: <200306270401.h5R3Pg5o006731@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 6/26/03, Bob Harrison wrote: > the product sucrose octanoate esters Application procedure. Just a thought. Since this product seems to need to be applied as a spray, why not construct a box with horizontal mist jets close to the top. You would have a small battery operated pump to circulate the spray through jets on each side of the box (excess would fall to the bottom and be recirculated through the sprayer) and just quickly dip each frame down through the mist, back out, and right back into the hive box. Would this work as an application procedure? Mike Stoops with a "rare" thought to share Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:09:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I called the Mid US Honey hotline today. The latest update was June 2nd, and, apparently, there has been no recent activity to report. The reporter speculates that prices should strengthen into August as the new crop begins to come onto the market. $1.65 is suggested as a target. He does not, however speculate what will happen after the entire new crop becomes available. The reporter then goes on to mention UF honey, and suggest that some suppliers may be blending a percentage of UF honey into legitimate, non-UF honey in order to hide the substandard product, to lighten the colour of the real honey, to lower their costs, and to gain an unfair price advantage. If this is the case, such use of UF honey amounts to adulteration, and adulteration can have a huge effect on a market, since even a small amount of adulteration in product being offered results in a corresponding increase of supply. In many commodities, a 10% change in supply can swing prices by 50% to 100% -- or even more. Adulteration, in any form, is a serious problem for all honest market participants and must be identified and prosecuted for the protection of legitimate operators. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:57:42 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: What To Do with Contaminated Honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, Pity about your treasure trove of honey. Seems to me that you have three choices: 1. Take a risk, keep it - but only use the honey for your personal consumption. 2. Have it tested; but in this case, what are you going to ask the lab. to test for? The whole gamut of possible tests will no doubt be so expensive that financially it won't be worth it. 3. Dump it! - my preference! Back to you, regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:45:09 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] varroa controls update (U.S.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Spraying the colony takes at least 10 times longer than vaporizing with > oxalic acid and the result is the same. Vaporizing oxalic acid takes 15 times longer than drizzling. Drizzling takes about 1 - 2 minutes / hive. About the same time as placing strips. Drizzling is also much safer. Oxalic acid vapor is not nice when you inhale it. Ari Ari Seppälä MMM Project Manager Finnish Beekeepers' Association www.hunaja.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:31:43 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: FW: HEALTH HAZARD ALERT (chloramphenicol) /AVERTISSEMENT DE DANGER POUR LA SANTÉ (chloramphénicol) Allen said: > The reporter then goes on to mention UF honey, and suggest that some > suppliers may be blending a percentage of UF honey into legitimate, > non-UF honey in order to hide the substandard product, to lighten the > colour of the real honey, to lower their costs, and to gain an unfair > price advantage. > If this is the case, such use of UF honey amounts to adulteration... Clearly. I found out this week that "the US honey industry" (such as it is), does not appear to read Bee-L, and has never heard of isotope ratio analysis of the water component of products claimed to be "pure". I got a call from the president of the American Honey Producers about an unrelated issue, and he apologized for not calling me sooner, explaining that he had several pressing problem issues on his "AHPA" stack. I asked about his problems, just to be nice, and one of them was that "no one had a way to detect the 'Ultrafiltered stuff'". I'm not sure who they consulted, but clearly none of them had ever put any money into orange futures. (The water isotope test is standard practice in the fruit juice business, and "fresh squeezed" OJ is always tested to verify that it is not "from concentrate".) So, now that those with more at stake than most of us have a lead on a practical test protocol, perhaps there will be some enforcement to back up the FDA's ruling on this goo that I refuse to use the word "honey" to describe. ...which will only shift the problem elsewhere. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 26 Jun 2003 to 27 Jun 2003 (#2003-179) In-Reply-To: <200306280401.h5S3fT4Q016686@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 6/27/03 23:00, Alfred Meier wrote: > and blow the > oxalic acid fog in the colony. As soon the fog comes out of the entrance > from the hive I know that the acid has reached everything QUERY: How does the oxalic acid vaporizer work? I think I want to clean some of the woodenware in some of my hives also. Mike Stoops :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:27:06 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: What To Do with Contaminated Honey? Yoon said: > I took down a feral hive... > ...he had nightly sprayed the bees all sorts of chemicals > imaginable: gasoline, paint thinner, insect spray--I just do > not recall all the stuff he had used in the hope of eradicating > the infestation. > I was able to strain two gallons of honey, plus a quart and half. And it all goes in sealed containers straight to the Haz-Mat "collection day" point (any fire station can tell you where and when). > I am willing to drain it into the septic if found polluted. I would not even put it in my septic tank. I want my septic tank bacteria to LIVE, although I must admit to caring much less about them than my bees. Perhaps this is why there are more observation hives than observation septic tanks. > How does one go about analyzing a sample? Why waste $100 on a lab (or the time of the overworked Beltsville team) to test only a few gallons of honey? Scrap it. Scrap any comb too. You got paid, you got some bees. That's enough. While one can all be fairly certain that the person who hired you got nowhere near the colony stores with his various attempts to spray, why take chances? jim (who was going to suggest burning it all, but realized that honey plus gasoline makes, ummm, a napalm-like gel...) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: sucrose octanoate esters For those who might be interested, here is the current (06/26/03) version of the "label" for the Sucrose spray varroa control. I spoke with the fellow who owns the company, a nice guy by the name of Tony Barrington, who is based out of Portsmouth, NH. He developed this for other agricultural purposes, so bees are a very "minor use". He is not (yet) a beekeeper, a situation he said that he may soon correct. Be sure to read the highly entertaining disclaimers added by Dadant at the end. Can't really blame Dadant, as this is likely a required thing for any product of this sort, given the fact that these days, everyone and his sock puppet hires a lawyer at the drop of a hat. jim (Who still thinks that a good lawyer is one that never takes you to the courthouse) ============================================ HONEY BEE TREATMENT AVACHEM SUCROSE OCTANOATE [40.0%] Biochemical Miticide For Varroa Mite Control on Honey Bees ACTIVE INGREDIENT Sucrose Octanoate Esters (a-D-Glucopyranosyl - b-D-fructofuranosyl - octanoate), mono-, di-, and triesters of sucrose octanoate 40.0% OTHER INGREDIENT 60.0% TOTAL 100.0% EPA Reg. No. 70950-2-2205 EPA Est. No. 075197-CA-001 U.S. Patent #’s 5,756,716; 6,419,941 STOP - READ THE LABEL BEFORE USE KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN WARNING - AVISO Si usted no entiende la etiqueta, busque a alguien para que se la explique a usted en detalle. (If you do not understand the label, find someone to explain it to you in detail.) FIRST AID If in eyes: Hold eye open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if present, after the first 5 minutes, then continue rinsing eye. Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice. If swallowed: Call poison control center or doctor immediately for treatment advice. Have person sip a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce vomiting unless told to do so by the poison control center or doctor. Do not give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. HOT LINE NUMBER: 888-229-7414 Have the product container or label with you when calling a poison control center or doctor, or going for treatment. You may also contact AVA Chemical Ventures, L.L.C. at 603-766-0288 for emergency medical treatment information. Distributed by:: Dadant & Sons, Inc. 51 South 2nd Street Hamilton, IL 62341 Net Contents: 5 Gallons PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS Hazard to Humans and Domestic Animals: WARNING: Causes substantial but temporary eye injury. Do not get in eyes or on clothing. Wear protective eyewear (goggles or face shield). Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling. Remove contaminated clothing and wash clothing before reuse. Environmental Hazards: Do not apply directly to water, or to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water when cleaning equipment or disposing of equipment wash waters. DIRECTIONS FOR USE It is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area during application. For any requirements specific to your State or Tribe, consult the agency responsible for pesticide regulation. Do not allow spray to drift from the application site and contact people, structures people occupy at any time and the associated property, parks and recreational areas, non-target crops, aquatic and wetland areas, woodlands, pastures, rangelands or animals. Apply only when wind speed is not more than 10 mph. For sprays, apply largest size droplets possible. GENERAL INFORMATION AVACHEM SUCROSE OCTANOATE is a biochemical miticide for use against Varroa mites (Varroa destructor) on adult honey bees. It is primarily a contact miticide with limited residual activity. Do not apply this product through any type of feeding/watering system. Apply as soon as infestation is detected. Use in sufficient water to achieve adequate coverage of the adult honey bee population. Repeat applications at intervals of 7 - 10 days, up to three times per infestation, to control mites emerging from brood cells. Thorough spray coverage of adult honey bees on frames is essential for good control of the pest. Remove frames with adhering bees and spray both sides. MIXING AND APPLICATION Shake or stir before use. AVACHEM SUCROSE OCTANOATE dissolves readily in water. To achieve and to maintain the suspension, add the appropriate quantity to water with agitation and maintain gentle agitation during application. Rate: Use a 0.625% v/v solution of this product. Apply 1.5 fl. Oz. (45 ml) of total mix volume on each full depth frame of bees. [Typical 18 frame two story colony will receive 27 fl. Oz. (810 ml) of total mix volume.] Rate Table Total Mix Volume % v/v Amount 2 gal. (7.57 liters) 0.625% 3 TBS (50 ml.) 10 gal.(37.85 liters) 0.625% 1 Cup (235 ml.) Timing of Application Initiate applications as soon as Varroa mites are observed. Repeat applications at intervals of 7 - 10 days, up to three times per infestation, to control mites emerging from brood cells. Test Application This product has been tested on European-derived honey bees managed in standard Langstroth style beehives in temperate areas of North America. However, it is not possible to evaluate all management systems and climatic conditions. Test AVACHEM Sucrose Octanoate for possible detrimental effects on honey bees by treating a few beehives at the label use rate prior to large scale use. Application This product may be applied with a garden type hand held or backpack sprayer. Do not apply this product through any type of feeding/ watering system. This product must come into contact with the Varroa mites to be effective. Complete wetting of the adult honey bee population on frames is essential for maximum control. Do not apply when honey bees are in winter cluster or at temperatures below 55°F to avoid chilling the bee population. STORAGE AND DISPOSAL Do not contaminate water, food, or feed by storage or disposal. Pesticide Storage: Store in a cool, dry location. Pesticide Disposal: Wastes resulting from the use of this product may be disposed of on site or at an approved waste disposal facility. Container Disposal: Triple rinse (or equivalent). Then offer for recycling or reconditioning, or puncture and dispose of in a sanitary landfill, or by incineration, or, if allowed by state and local authorities, by burning. If burned, stay out of smoke. WARRANTY STATEMENT, DISCLAIMER Dadant & Sons, Inc. (Dadant) seeks to present reliable information concerning the composition, properties and use of the product, however: (1) All advice concerning selection and use of this product is provided at no charge and with no warranty. (2) No warranty is made hereby. The product described herein is warranted to conform to Dadant specifications, therefore, only at the time of sale. THIS WARRANTY IS EXCLUSIVE AND IN LIEU OF ANY AND ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, ARISING BY LAW OR CUSTOM, INCLUDING BUT NOT BY WAY OF LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY AND THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Remedy for any breach of warranty is limited to replacement of the defective product. (3) Dadant assumes no responsibility for any patent liability arising from the use of the product in a process, manner or formula not designed by Dadant. Nothing in the listed information shall be construed as an inducement or recommendation to use any process or to produce or use the product in conflict with existing or future patents. ================================================================= :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:03:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Who's Humming at Opera? Believe It or Not, Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On his Saturday morning WBAI radio show, AS I PLEASE, Simon Loekle did a little five minute rant about how the WBAI listeners should do something useful with their lives like raising bees. He read a little bit from a news article about a beekeeper who works for the Paris Opera who had bees delivered to his work place. He couldn't get them out to his country place in time so he set up the hive on the roof of the opera house and gets more honey then from his country hives. I tried to look the item up on the web but to access the article registration was, and I don't like giving my personal info for business uses. Here's the links if anyone else wants to check it out: INTERNATIONAL / EUROPE | June 26, 2003 Who's Humming at Opera? Believe It or Not, Bees By CRAIG S. SMITH (NYT) News http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/26/international/europe/26PARI.html Crazy bellringer was right. There's money to be made in a place like this. -The Man with No Name, A Fistful of Dollars :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: QUEEN PIPING MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, Today for the first time in my humble 2 years of beekeeping, I finially hear what I believe is the queen piping!! I've heard recording posted on the internet, but this is the first time I heard it from a hive. What a beautiful, haunting sound! I've looked in the archives on Bee-L about piping and found a lot of info- very confusing...Soo, I'm asking if some of the more expreinced members would mind commenting on a few question I have. I opened the piping hive, to find over a half a dozen queen cells, all capped! The piping was still coming from the hive, even as I removed, examined and replaced the frames. The sound seemed to move about in the 2 broad box hive. Many questions are dancing in my head!!! Why is the existing queen piping (is it a queen??)? If I have a laying queen,(I see larvae) why the queen cells!? (the cells are in the center and on the bottom edge of the frames)? There is plenty of room in the hive, it was started from a 3-4 lb package with a painted queen on April 28th, I could not find her, but I hear the piping! But was it from the original queen? So why swarm or supersede? Can queens in cells pipe? Can workers be making this haunting sound? Should I split this hive dividing the capped queen cells to stop a swarm? Enough questions..... The piping is an interesting and very beautiful sound; reminds me of whale song!! A joy to hear. Thanks Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:55:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: varroa controls update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Ari Seppälä > Vaporizing oxalic acid takes 15 times longer than drizzling. Drizzling takes > about 1 - 2 minutes / hive. About the same time as placing strips. Drizzling > is also much safer. Oxalic acid vapor is not nice when you inhale it. > After testing both methods I must agree with Ari, there is no need to make things more complicated and expensive than necessary. From my experience it takes no more than 30 sec to apply a sugar-water-oxalic mixture to a 2 boxes hive in autumn. I found no difference in efficiency between the methods. We beekeepers often believe that a method is better because it's complicated and / or expensive. I have personally found it's usually the other way around, simpler is better. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:13:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Splits into 2 queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/06/03 05:04:02 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << 1) Are there any anticipated problems with immediately placing newly = formed "swarm" hives atop the old? (should I move the mediums for a = while, and then place them on top?) >> My usual method. Saves equipment, space and bees. Although the part containing the queen, the 'swarm' is placed below on foundation mainly so that she gets the benefit of the foragers and they have nowhere to put the honey but in the supers. The brood goes on top with a top entrance from which the new queen can fly and mate. Often it is opportune to take a harvest of ripe queen cells or nucs for use elsewhere. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::