From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:22:37 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8307B48FEA for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdk011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0307A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 134976 Lines: 2982 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:44:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: varroa controls update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "P-O Gustafsson" > > Ari Seppälä > > > Vaporizing oxalic acid takes 15 times longer than drizzling. Drizzling takes > > about 1 - 2 minutes / hive. About the same time as placing strips. Drizzling > > is also much safer. Oxalic acid vapor is not nice when you inhale it. > > > After testing both methods I must agree with Ari, there is no need to make > things more complicated and expensive than necessary. From my experience it > takes no more than 30 sec to apply a sugar-water-oxalic mixture to a 2 boxes > hive in autumn. I found no difference in efficiency between the methods. > > We beekeepers often believe that a method is better because it's complicated and > / or expensive. I have personally found it's usually the other way around, > simpler is better. Although I have not used a trickle system, my observations don't tally with either Ari or P-O Gustafsson. I bought a Heilyser vaporizer late last fall (from Canada), and found it cheap (around $65 U.S.), fast (about 3 minutes per hive - no need to open the hive), and convenient (can be used once/week in any temperatures above freezing, making it very flexible for early/late winter broodless treatments which provide the highest efficacy). Maybe others are faster at opening a hive than I, but I don't see myself doing any sort of invasive procedure like an acid trickle in much less than 5-7 minutes per hive for a two story hive. Some key differences between the Heilyser and the European designs I have seen are: 1) Heilyser uses a simple propane torch for heat (fast) as opposed to electric coils (slow). This also eliminates heat directly in the hive, which I've read is a problem with foam hives. 2) Very simple design that's flexible for different hive openings etc. The vapor passes through tubing, driven by user supplied air pump. the unit sets on a stake, and the user passes a torch under the heat tube and pumps air until the vapor is delivered. Some suggestions/observations that I would make for using the torch type vaporizers are: 1) In cold weather, use pipe insulation on the tubing carrying the vapor. The first time I used mine in cold weather, I noticed a fair amount of condensate/precipitate forming on the cold tubing, indicating reduction of delivered dose. Also try to keep the delivery hose as short as is convenient. 2) I would (will) build a small carrying unit which houses the entire apparatus, and fixes the torch below the heating tube. This would make it possible to use it in a more hands-off fashion, or run multiple vaporizers, and make it easier to transport. 3) I have been using a hand pump, but I think a foot pump would probably be better. 4) Make foam entrance blocks for all openings. Make multiple sets so that you can pull the tube from the entrance block to move to the next hive while leaving the previous closed for a few minutes. 5) In warmer weather, try to treat early in the day, before flight, and while it's still cool. The need for a respirator/filter would be an obvious issue on a hot day, as would the need to stop up the hive for a few minutes (not to mention the absence of foragers and their phoretic mites during the day). I have only dabbled with my vaporizer so far (I will be keeping records soon), but the claims seem real. Of the two hives I treated in March (1st year hives last year, with no other treatment of any kind) one is only now starting to show mite drops (around 1-3/day). The other hive was a dead-out from the brutal winter we had. Regards, Todd :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:51:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Bees on the Food Network MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tonight's show on pancakes on TYLERS ULTIMATE on the FOOD network, had a segment with a cook who is also a brewer and a beekeeper. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:28:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Re: bears win round one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Many thanks for all the kind on and off-line responses to my dilemma with bears. I am particularly intrigued with Timothy Eisele's slow 'em down with barbed wire method so they get to enjoy the electric fence a bit more! I picked up some replacement nucs Sunday night which I'll keep at home while I get the bear fence ready at the permanent yard for next Spring. Andrew Dewey andrew@acadiacomp.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:17:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you turned the honey into mead that should get rid of most > contaminants as the yeast will just work on the sugars. Then if you > distil the mead it will leave any unpleasant residues behind. Inasmuch as we don't really know what residues we might be facing, but can speculate that they could include some of the nastier concoctions that humans have devised for chemical warfare against insects (and man) as well as common household poisons, we can not guess how they may vary in their properties. Nor can we guess with certainty what concentations might be involved. We do know that the insects seemed to be able to survive, and perhaps thrive in the presence of the chemicals applied, BUT, bees are bees and they live short lives compared to humans. Moreover humans are not likley to notice subtle or slow-acting effects on the bees, or if, indeed, the bees are affected by the chemicals applied. Sure, the honey is probably OK, and if any residues do exist in the honey, and if they do have any effect on you, the effects will likely be very subtle or take a while to manifest. Maybe the residues are of a sort that will cloud your judgement so that you are unable to see why you should not consume more of the honey. (For that matter, alcohol alone can have that effect). At any rate, what is your life and your health worth to you? The price of a few pounds of questionable honey? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:35:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Splits into 2 queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << They also have nowhere to put the pollen but in the supers! >> > > Another delicious crop to harvest. Bee bread is much too good to be left to > the bees. > > Chris > How do you extract bee bread without destroying the comb? Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > On the website is a list of contacts, complete with e-mail addresses. > http://www.easternapiculture.org/contacts/ > > Ask, and ye shall receive. Even more, if there is a problem, why not talk to the people who are running it and give them your concerns directly, so they can do something about it instead of critical analysis on an international forum of what you do not like? In essence, the complaint is that the table of contents should be better, therefore the book is questionable. There is a valid point which has not been discussed and that is- are there too many meetings? I suggest that there might be on the industrial side of beekeeping (based on the tenor of the complaints), but EAS does not fall into that category. EAS seems to me (looking from the outside, since I am not a member but did attend the 1993 meeting in Maine) a more democratic organization with a broad mix of both commercial and hobby beekeepers, sort of a State Beekeeping meeting raised to a Regional level so that the size will bring in many exceptional speakers and teachers. (As a hobby beekeeper, just looking at the names in the program is impressive.) In addition, there are workshops and the Short Course for hands on learning, most of which might not be attractive to the commercial beekeeper but, for a hobby beekeeper, like a fifteen layer "Death by Chocolate" cake to a chocoholic. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, Allen, et al: Since testing for contamination for such a small quantity (2 gals), as Jim points out, seems not very cost-effective, since there are just too many variables involved in a long/short term effects and their dubious/questionable/causal manifestations once consumed, as Allen seems to point out, and since I am feeding feral swarm-captures so that they can become viable by next spring—-I am, at this point, inclined to feed it back to the bees, for they are busy drawing brood chambers at this point. However, I wish someone had done a significant research on “a long term residual and other chemical inter-and re-actions occurring within honey over a period of months and years,” for I just do not think local fire departments can handle tons of imported honey banned for its chloramphénicol contamination, for instance. What do packers do with that banned stuff: a further dilution with more good honey? I dung no. It will be hard to imagine that they will dump their money. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:12:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Even more, if there is a problem, why not talk to the people who are > running it and give them your concerns directly, so they can do > something about it instead of critical analysis on an international > forum of what you do not like? I thought this thread was dead, but, well -- since you asked... When I originally wrote, I had found myself at the last moment for EAS pre-registration. I had assumed the filling out the form would be a simple matter and be done in a few minutes. But when I found myself confronted with the task, I realised that much of what I needed to know to decide, was simply not there, and *I had run out of time*. It was a weekend, and I had a decision to make. I looked at the EAS 'contacts' page and did not see any link to 'more information'. For that matter, I just now revisited the site to check the 'contacts' page and found an impressive list of names, but no mention of where to find further information without disturbing some high mucky-muck or bothering the webmaster. (I assume the webmaster had put everything he/she has been given onto the site. It is a nicely done site, BTW. It just lacks important info). Having hit a deadline, and not knowing where to look, I wrote to BEE-L -- as many of us do when we have a bee-related problem. I know that many on BEE-L attend EAS. I was hoping someone would just send me an URL to the info that I expected must be there somewhere, so I could complete my registration by the deadline. As I wrote, I found that I had more and more questions that were not answered, and mentioned them too. > In essence, the complaint is that the table of contents should be > better, therefore the book is questionable. Actually that is a great analogy, as far as it goes. I realise that novels usually don't have an index, or sometimes, even a table of contents, but what good is a technical reference text without a good table of contents, a bibliography, and -- even more so -- a good index? Frankly, I was assuming that EAS was like a technical book, metaphorically speaking, and that is why I wrote. As a result of my BEE-L query, I can see that I had an unrealistic notion of what EAS is about. I've learned that EAS is like a 'Dead' concert, and I can see that I am expected to check my critical facualties at the door, and to be happy to take whatever is provided, whenever it is provided. That also explains the lack of clarity in the program info and the implicit expectation that i should know without being told. As a result of my query and the replies, I found myself much less impelled to attend the whole thing, or to pre-register, and I let the matter drop. I should add, though, that several EAS people, and a truck driver, have written, as a result of my query on BEE-L, offering to to answer any questions and help me out. No one has, however, offered me the most important information for which I asked -- a proper detailed listing of events and venues -- but the truck driver has been the most helpful so far. He provided me a listing of places near the venue where I can park my rig, and also get back on the freeway. (Thanks). I should, perhaps, apologise to the EAS people who wrote me, since I have not have time to take up dialogue with them. They did not, and I therefore assume cannot, provide the info I have clearly indicated I needed. > There is a valid point which has not been discussed and that is- are > there too many meetings? I hope that question is not directed to me. I can't imagine who could ever answer a question like that. Anyhow, I learned what I need to know, pre-registration has passed, and I am much less eager to take in the whole enchilada. As previously mentioned, I'll be in the area anyhow, and I plan to drive by EAS and drop in on the activities. Maybe, by the time, there will be a firm and detailed listing of all the activities. If not, well, I'll take my chances. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:56:22 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] varroa controls update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Todd has a point > I bought a Heilyser vaporizer late last fall > (from Canada), and found it cheap (around $65 U.S.), fast (about 3 minutes > per hive - no need to open the hive), The vaporizers that work with propane torch are faster than electric ones. There is one problem with them. You should not heat oxalic acid too much (above 200 degrees C) because much of it changes to water. The best temperature is between 100 - 200 C. In this temperature the gas that comes from oxalic acid is mixture of water, formic acid and oxalic acid. The warmer it gets the more oxalic acid breaks to water, and the efficacy goes down. Electric heaters warm up slower and don't overheat so easily. The torch ones I have seen in Finland have had a foot pump, a 1 liter steel chamber for oxalic acid and a thermometer to follow the temperature in the chamber. Beekeeper uses a torch to heat the chamber with about 20 - 50 g of oxalic acid and pumps the vapour into a hive and then continues to next one until no gas comes out. They have been in use for more than 10 years. Its crude, but it works. I don't advice everyone to use this mainly because there is no cntrol over the dose how much you get acid vapuor in hive. The beekeepers just ' pump until full' But it looks like the bees can handle it most often. Also the need of a respitator and eye protection is obvious. The average beekeeper here has 10 hives, the investment is too much compared to tricling. Yes, you can vaporize several times without negative effects to bees. But it is very ineffective when there is brood in the hive. Thats why we use thymol of formic acid in early fall treatments instead of vapour. Late fall treatment with oxalic acid tricling or vaporizer. More than 95 % of our beekeepers choose tricling. We have had no reports about queen problems with tricling. Ari Project Manager Finnish Beekeepers' Association www.hunaja.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:26:47 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Re: bears win round one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] bears win round one > The electric fence charger pulsates its charge to keep from killing > livestock so the bear gets a shock, then rest, then shock. I have seen bear > fence hooked to 110 to eliminate the pulse but believe doing so is illegal. > > I have seen in remote farms 110 fence set up to control large livestock. You > or I might not be able to let go easily of a 110 line but a 2500 pound Bull > Buffalo can. -------------------------- I'd like to jump in on this discussion & add some caution to Bob's comment against anyone thinking of eliminating the pulse on an electric fence. There's a guy in Denver that died (last year?) after he did just that and had fallen back on the wire. Without a pulse your muscles won't relax for you to get away and are stuck there until you melt. Back in high school I remember a faulty timing light that gave me an education of this sort and my brother had to tackle me off the car. I couldn't let go with one hand on the hood & another on the light. Not fun. Back on the subject of bears, as part of a study last year(2002) by the USDA & CDOW (Colo. Div. of Wildlife) some of my bees were put to the test on various bear-nuisance abatement tests. Mostly they were trying to record data on how to scare off bears without causing damage. With equipment failures the study quickly turned into a miserable experience for all. Bears were finally jumping the electric fences clean - wrecking the hives - then jumping out. I haven't seen the video footage on this but have been told I'll find it upsetting. So once those bears have an indication how to defeat your fences and get an idea of what you're protecting, the game is over & the bears win - over & over again. Best to make certain your fences are 100% operational the first time or the bear will be twice as hard to discourage on the second visit. Just as a side note on bears, the USDA contact under the study made the comment that bears coming into cities are normally twice as big as bears living in the mountains. His thoughts were that bears are learning to adapt to our environment rather than just coming down from a food shortage or over-population. Despite the danger, city/town bears are enjoying shorter but healthier lives over their people-shy counterparts. Since some bears are endangered the USDA was(is) looking into scare devices using sound and light to try to save bears from being destroyed. Matthew Westall - E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO (enjoying one great season here following 3 years of drought) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:54:45 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Systemic Insecticides and "global warming" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Observing the growth rate that appears to have occurred in certain areas of France this year, I pose this for thought: Systemic insecticides are applied to plant tissue to be active for a specified period of time - after which it is deemed that they are either not present or have been transformed into a non active form. This allowing protected growth of a plant to occur, followed by un-tainted nectar flow and pollen production. This year sunflowers are flowering upto 3 weeks in advance of normal - growth rates allowing flower formation to occur early. Therefore, if a systemic product is deemed to be active for 60 days, but now flowering is occurring in a period that is shorter than the 60 days - what is the consequence on "the label" for the insecticide? - presuming that the active material should not be present during the flowering period! What controls the length of time a systemic product is present in a plant? 1. The metabolic processes occurring in a plant, or 2. A plain and simple number of days from application. If global warming is resulting in plants arriving at flowering stage in shorter time periods, the relationship between this and insecticide activity "time slots" will have to be viewed very carefully. Spring planted rape/canola would be a prime candidate for careful observation. Any thoughts? Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:21:11 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline Allen said: > ...no mention of where to find further information without > disturbing some high mucky-muck One of the pleasant things about EAS is the LACK of "high mucky-mucks". The host team and current officers are never seen lording about the place. In fact, the host team and officers are easy to spot - they are the ones seen "taking care of things", lugging heavy objects, and so on. They clearly act as "worker bees". > I should add, though, that several EAS people, and a truck driver, > have written, as a result of my query on BEE-L, offering to to answer > any questions and help me out. No one has, however, offered me the most > important information for which I asked -- a proper detailed listing of > events and venues -- > I should, perhaps, apologise to the EAS people who wrote me, since I > have not have time to take up dialogue with them. Given offers to answer "any questions", but no reply to the offers, let alone specific questions, wasn't it a certainty that no answers would result? Does anyone honestly expect people planning ANY event to both subscribe to and read all of every Bee-L message, let alone respond to each and every one of the comments/questions posed on Bee-L? Aren't they perhaps a little busy working on getting a major event set up, implying that they would be LESS likely to take the time to read Bee-L? > but the truck driver has been the most helpful so far. > He provided me a listing of places near the venue where I can park > my rig, and also get back on the freeway. Back when I lived on a sailboat, I had several "Port Guides", which claimed to list the services and amenities available at every port and marina on the planet. Are you saying that there is no similar type of guidebook for RVs in North America? If not, let's publish one! jim (Who notes that a Google search for "schedule change" yields 3,610,000 hits, while "schedule unchanged" only yields 276,000 hits, and infers that any one schedule has a 90% chance of being changed.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OoooEeee! With recent mention of adulteration, UF blending onshore, and hidden Chinese honey, it looks like we are probing near the bone. A 'Catch the Buzz' article just came into my mailbox about a scandal unfolding in Aus. (For an archive Catch the Buzz postings, visit: http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html ) I'm also getting email about a packer in Florida, and also mention of chloramphenicol residues in the honey left honey drums being sent to out to US beekeepers (and beekeepers worldwide, I guess) for filling, and the warning: wash all drums really well, lest that residue contaminate the new domestic crop! Contamination and adulteration are coming front and centre these days. As my French teacher used to say, "A word to the wise is sufficient". allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:39:38 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey Yoon said: > What do packers do with that banned stuff: a further > dilution with more good honey? Is dilution the solution? Better to slip it on a ship? It would appear that barrels rejected at US ports of entry went back to the shipper (China), and then promptly went out again from China through (ahem) a number of different countries on the other side of the planet, and hence back to the US, Europe, wherever. (See Allen's post of 7/01/03 entitled "Re: Mid US Hotline") These guys were so sloppy that they transshipped through places that NEVER export honey, like Singapore, and STILL got away with it for a while. As Bob Harrison said back in Feb 2003, "Vietnam must have had the mother of all honey crops". Bob somehow could not accept export figures that worked out to an sudden increase in production of about 1/4 metric ton per hive. Sorry to point out the obvious, but let's get real: a) Why do you THINK anyone would go to the extra expense and trouble of shipping honey in round-about ways? b) Why would anyone go to the extra expense and trouble of running honey through an "ultrafiltration" process? c) Why do your think the export numbers I cited back in Feb 2003 thrashed around so much for so many countries during periods when there was a low worldwide honey price, and margins could be eaten up by shipping? It appears that honey, like matter, is neither created nor destroyed by man. But false-flag honey is just like false-flag ammo. Both are sure to explode in one's face sooner or later. jim (Who sailed the planet with "Lake Winnipesaukee NH" on his transom and registration without any questions about how a 42-foot sloop had a land-locked lake for a "home port", proving that all the good customs agents work the airports.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:02:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Jun 2003 to 30 Jun 2003 (#2003-182) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/07/03 05:04:20 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Another delicious crop to harvest. Bee bread is much too good to be left to > the bees. > How much do you eat? How do you eat it? >> I haven't worked for it, but eat as much as I can by the spoonful at extraction time. It has a strong bittersweet flavour. If you like dark chocolate you will like bee bread. Ron Brown puts it in jars topped up with honey for home consumption or special customers, but I am not that organised. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:47:56 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seems as if a fair few beekeepers are or have had pressured placed upon them to keep quiet about affairs that involved honey and bees. 1.Relating to UF: It would be interesting to recall who pushed for this procedure to be deemed as an acceptable part of honey conditioning (during the recent updating of regulations controlling what is and what maybe done to honey.) 2.Before total confidence is lost in our fair product - is it not time to get this procedure banned. Or are we going to watch the commercial base for many individuals go do the pan (it has happened for many products here in Europe already - e.g.. beef, eggs, chicken - all which have had to change dramatically the way they supply the mass market.) 3.Adulterated honey, allied with GMO, pesticides, medication potentially being present in a final product suggest a fragile position for honey before the buying public. Not many people are going to be supplied by the small friendly beekeeper living at the bottom of the leafy lane. Regards, Peter. Plus as the intro. to this mail suggested: Bayer have lost the case with which it tried to silence "union" delegates from publicly highlighting concerns generated from the use of the insecticide "Gaucho": (if required a reasonable translation of the below will supplied to those asking for such in private.) - copied frommail received from a Bee discussion group list based in Belgium - abeilles@fundp.ac.be La justice consacre la liberté d’expression des dirigeants syndicaux agricoles. La société BAYER est condamnée. Union Nationale de l'Apiculture Française Paris, le 24 juin 2003 En périphérie du dossier Gaucho, par un jugement rendu aujourd’hui à 14 heures, le tribunal de Grande Instance de Châteauroux vient de se prononcer sur les garanties accordées à la liberté d’expression des dirigeants syndicaux agricoles. M. Maurice MARY, vice-président de l’Union Nationale de l’Apiculture Française, était attaqué par la société BAYER pour avoir fait différentes déclarations dans le cadre du combat syndical de l’U.N.A.F. dans l’affaire du Gaucho. L’action de la société Bayer a été déclarée irrecevable. Le tribunal a en effet affirmé que les propos du dirigeant syndical devaient être protégés par la loi de 1881 sur la liberté de la Presse, qui garantit en France la liberté d’expression publique. La tentative de la société Bayer de contourner cette loi pour limiter la liberté d’expression syndicale a été sanctionnée par le tribunal. La société Bayer devra payer une indemnité de 2000 € au dirigeant syndical attaqué. Ce jugement prend toute son importance à un moment où tous les syndicats agricoles se mobilisent pour la protection de leur liberté d’expression. Deux procès identiques concernant deux autres dirigeants syndicaux nationaux se dérouleront dans les prochaines semaines devant d’autres tribunaux de grande instance. Le jugement de ce jour devrait faire jurisprudence. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:00:21 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim mentions that honey has been passed through countries that have little history in honey exports! Several years ago exports in acacia honey from Hungary increased by many percentage points over a very short period of time - which fell pat with problems that China was having in exporting white honey deemed as adulterated with improper sugar additions! I wonder if there is a moral to all this? Read "Honey adulteration inquiry" as produced by SPMF (French Honey Producers Union - to be found on: www.apiservices.com Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: al boehm Subject: My recent questions re stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello bee listers My very most thanks to all that wrote me off list on my recent sting reactions. This is a great resource with many kind and knowledgeable people very wiling to give of themselves for every ones benefit. Thanks again Al Boehm Columbus N C :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:55:43 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline Peter Dillon said: > 1.Relating to UF: > It would be interesting to recall who pushed for this procedure to be deemed > as an acceptable part of honey conditioning (during the recent updating of > regulations controlling what is and what maybe done to honey.) I am told by a reliable source that ultrafiltration has been used in a legitimate way for years in the creation of a very high-quality and very light mead. The specific ultrafiltration done to make mead was developed at Cornell University, and was designed to remove even the proteins from the honey, which cause "cloudy" mead. But taking most of the water back out again and trying to call it "honey" is the "highly creative" step. > 2.Before total confidence is lost in our fair product - Any beekeeper that feels that "exported honey" from far, far away can have any negative impact on "our product" has been brainwashed by those who profit by importing honey from far, far away. What would any consumer who hears about the problems do? What would any consumer who hears about the apparent skullduggery and unethical attempts to defraud entire countries do? If you answered "not buy honey at all", then you have been brainwashed, and need to reconsider your reasoning. You also need a new sign that proudly says "Local Honey", or perhaps ">>LOCAL<< Honey". (Funny story - a very hefty lady stopped me downtown last week and asked me when I was going to have this year's crop of "Lo-Cal Honey" ready, pronounced as in "Low Calorie". I did not attempt to correct her, as honey is "low calorie" compared to many other things.) > is it not time to get this procedure banned. One can never "ban" a refining process, but one can prevent those who use it from labeling the output of the process as "honey". > 3.Adulterated honey, allied with GMO, pesticides, medication potentially > being present in a final product suggest a fragile position for honey before > the buying public. Not many people are going to be supplied by the small > friendly beekeeper living at the bottom of the leafy lane. This is a depressing point of view. Why should honey require "infrastructure", long-distance shipping, industrial techniques, and mass-market tactics when truffles do not? Why do Italian markets all have an entire wall devoted to different obscure brands of olive oil produced by individual families? Why are entire shops in the Middle East devoted to honey? How did Starbucks educate an entire generation about the different flavors of different types of coffee beans while even beekeepers still speak of "honey" as if it were all identical? (For that matter, how did Starbucks convince people to pay such high prices for a cup of coffee in a paper cup?) Repeat after me - "Honey is NOT a fungible commodity!" Keep saying it until you believe it. (Maybe look up "fungible" when you have the time, and note that honey is NEVER given as an example of "fungible" in dictionaries.) Peter, you live in France. How many bakeries are in your town? Does bread from elsewhere have any chance of being as respected as the bread of the local bakers? >From a strategic point of view, the fact that the lowest-cost (and highest volume) producer on the planet had a quality problem is not as big a deal as the tactics used by those who trade in generic honey to try and cover up the problem (false flag trans-shipment and ultrafiltration). Nationalistic and/or protectionist producers could not have asked for a better way to contrast their product with the highly processed stuff from who-knows-where. What do you think the Evian bottled water company does whenever news of new pollution threats to public water supplies appear in the news? They certainly do not wring their hands and worry about "the image of water". They INCREASE their ad budget for that area, and make sure that their retailers are well-stocked. Yeah, it is frustrating being a producer in any country that is a net importer of one's favorite crop. Get over it, and sell AGAINST the low cost stuff! "What's the difference between your honey and generic honey?" "Well, its hard to explain... Do you cook with olive oil?" "Sure." "Have you ever cooked with motor oil?" "Of course not!" "Then you understand the difference!" jim (Who's father taught him that "selling iceboxes to Eskimos" was easy once one realized that refrigerators keep food from FREEZING SOLID.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:14:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Jun 2003 to 30 Jun 2003 (#2003-182) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all << Another delicious crop to harvest. Bee bread > Ron Brown puts it in jars topped up with honey for > home consumption or special customers, I don't like it myself, but this 'trade secret' is 'a good little earner'... I used to sell it as 'pollen pickled in honey'... Fill a half pound jar about one third full with liquid honey (doing this at 29 degrees Celsius helps) then place just a few scoops made by a teaspoon, on the surface and poke each one gently under the surface (otherwise you will get bubbles that look like ball bearings) top up with honey. The next stage is much more important than most give it credit for and that is labelling... Use a distinctive label that has some information about pollen in fine print around the back of the jar. make the label small enough so that the scoops of pollen can be easily seen through the honey. This product will command a price about five times that of a one pound jar of honey, so it is well worth the effort of preparing. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:29:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Dillon wrote: Not many people are going to be supplied by the small friendly beekeeper living at the bottom of the = leafy lane. But possibly the bulk of dedicated people who eat honey for health would = be, if the large producers switched to selling jarred honey with their = own brand label, instead of selling off cheaply in bulk for blending = with dubious imported stuff. We have been told before that packers need = best honey to bring imports up to a sellable standard. So just stop = supplying such packers - and the foriegn stuff will become commercially = useless. =20 We were also told earleier that home honey producers have a moral duty = to enable packers to blend up cheap honey for mass consumption. What a = hoot! Honey producers should maintain the quality of their product above = all else - or deserve to go down the pan. =20 Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:10:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "yoonytoons" wondered : What do packers do with that > banned stuff: a further dilution with more good honey? I dung no. When contaminated honey was withdrawn from UK supermarkets last year ir was apparently dumped in landfill. How many broken jars were scavenged by local bees with the honey being recycled is unrecorded. One use hobbyists can play with - if they get an odd swarm - is to hive some bees in a large cardboard box, feed the contam honey, cut out combs and keep feeding, finally kill the bees, burn the box, and harvest all the wax to make candles. As honey is essentially plant juice, does anyone know of a way to make useful fertiliser from honey? Just dilute and spray (onto the ground, not onto flowers) , perhaps? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: A New Form of "Bee-Sting Therapy" It appears that bee-sting therapy has a much wider potential "market" than had been thought. >From the "Daily Times" of Pakistan... http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-7-2003_pg9_8 Bee Sting Helped Addict Quit Drugs A Chinese man claims he overcame drug addiction by letting bees sting him every time he felt the need to get high. The Hong Kong edition of China Daily, quoting the Tianfu Morning Post, says Li, 30, had been addicted to drugs since leaving school ten years ago. Li had entered rehabilitation programmes many times but had never managed to shake the addiction. In 1999, his girlfriend persuaded him to go live in the mountains for a while in the hope that spending time away from temptation would help. They rented a house in Songpan County and began a new life. It was there that Li read a magazine article that touted bee stings as a cure for drug addiction. He found some wild bees on the mountain and let them attack him whenever he felt a craving coming on. After two years, he finally conquered his addiction. He now lives in Chengdu where he works as a beekeeper. jim (Who, due to continued rain, has issued wetsuits, masks, and tanks to all staff) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Graham Law Subject: Darwinism is Not Quite Working If Darwin's theory of evolution was sound, then how can one explain the phenomenon of the honey bee that has evolved to often have the new queen kill her sisters, thereby putting all the hives eggs in one basket (or bee :-). If this queen fails to mate or is lost during the mating flight the hive is doomed. Now why has the application of Darwin's evolution theory not naturally breed this trait out of the honey bee as the smarter plan would be to keep several virgins alive until one is successfully mated. Graham Law Leicestershire, UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working Graham Law said: > If Darwin's theory of evolution was sound, Sound? You have the Books On Tape edition? :) > then how can one explain the phenomenon of the honey bee > that has evolved to often have the new queen kill her sisters, Not to appear to start anything even remotely like a general discussion/argument/debate/food fight over "Darwinism", but simply to answer the specific question asked... Most all creatures have a similar hardwired drive to try as hard as possible to pass on THEIR genes, even over the genes of "relatives". The book "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins explains this in great detail. Anything by Dawkins is worth reading. > Now why has the application of Darwin's evolution theory not > naturally breed this trait out of the honey bee as the smarter > plan would be to keep several virgins alive until one is > successfully mated. Well, the worker bees DO try to keep several queens "ready" in swarming scenarios. They will cluster around a queen cell to both protect it from a newly-emerged queen, and prevent the queen in the cell from emerging "too early". If this were not a successful strategy, each hive would only throw off a single swarm within each 2 to 3 week period. Clearly, hives can and do throw off multiple swarms within this timeframe. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:37:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee bread - was splits into 2 queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/07/03 05:03:32 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Bee bread is much too good to be left to > the bees. > > Chris > How do you extract bee bread without destroying the comb? >> Who said anything about not destroying comb? If you use top bars and starter strips in the super immediately above the queen excluder the bees will often put the pollen layer surrounding the brood nest into some of the natural comb they draw. The part without pollen can be cut out and sold as cut comb honey, or put in a jar and surrounded with clear honey to be sold as chunk honey. If the bee bread is stored in established combs then simply use a spoon to scrape down to the mid rib. US/Canadian readers should bear in mind that these notes are written from a UK perspective where it us usual to use a single brood box and not to allow the queen access to honey supers. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:17:12 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reflecting on the thoughts that I mailed regarding UF and the resulting comments. They give rise to these few words: UF is similar to many other techniques and manipulations that have been developed. It may be applied for the good and the bad (both being highly relative depending on ones objective and point of view). Jim's given example of removing protein haze in mead production would I presume get hands clapping in praise - the resulting product has been enhanced without the final clientele being duped. When UF is used to disguise the origins of a final product, that is deception - unless a clear statement is delivered informing the purchaser of what has been done. It appears from recent press/ government info. releases that deception is often the objective when UF has been used, with end purchasers being cheated. Customers hearing about this will start asking questions. As more and more unsavory facts are revealed, then the sales of all honeys will fall. Signs for local honey sure might help those producing a few hundreds of kilos.- but tell your local prairie beekeeper to put up the same sign, with the suggestion that he/she will move the year's crop! - you might just observe another sign being shown rather quickly. I slipped up, and used the silly term "ban" - thanks for correcting me! The existence of adulterated honey of any sort is depressing. So was watching the British beef market collapse due to adulteration - one that was considered a fair risk to take at the time - another story! Truffles - how many kilos. are placed onto the international market - one doesn't require an agent when a full carrier back is worth "its weight in gold" - not quite the same with our segmented production and sales regime (it is illegal here in France to indicate in a public forum approved prices for honey). Olive Oil - remember the adulteration that took place in Spain 15 or so years back - it managed to kill a fair number of individuals. But again, this individualistic type of marketing is not possible for the vast majority of producers (ignoring IBM's publicity!). The average consumer looks at two things: 1. Price - the cheaper, the better for the housekeeping budget. 2. Consistency and packaging. Many listen to "good food" programs, and read "country living" - then rush off to town, where supplies are swapped for hard won currency (with part of the game being to look very carefully at "price per kg" labels). Hence the supremacy of the supermarket setup. Yes, for the moment, I am still here in France. Contrary to the pretty TV images - most bread here in France is sourced from the supermarkets! Local bakers have deliveries during the night of frozen dough from which arrives the famous baguette - most are going out of business. I agree, in most cases, bread, cheese, milk, beer, you name it, when produced in an artisanal manner (read local) result in a product that fairs well when compared with mass produced, industrialized foods. Returning back to "local" honey - how does a major producer change his/her product into a pile of Dollar, £, Euro etc. bills or cheques? It is done by supplying others who specialise in transport, distribution and marketing. If this is done in competition with others from wherever who also accept the recognised rules and regulations - then fair is fair. But if the organisations who are buying the "fair" produce really only want the cheapest, ignoring the controls whilst purchasing such material - then commerce will suffer. Small time advertising will be like blowing in the wind! - "My honey is good, clean and just like grandpa used to sell - just come down the highway 400 km to get it!" I managed to get a hard won label pronouncing that honey produced by my bees in the National Parc was "superb, well worth the buy" - and was able to stick a prestigious ticket on the pot saying so. Still left me with 40+ tonnes of honey after saturating the local area. Yes, I do see your logic, Jim - but if I put it into practice for all the honey my bees produced - then I would have gone out of business several years before being possibly decimated by some other substance used in our area. I also believe in being able to supply the open market with a clean product that has a solid reputation behind it. One that is not considered to cheat the purchaser. I believe that processes that undermine this position should be opposed. There are those who apparently , having purchased motor oil sell it as olive oil - AND have the clientele believe it so. Ten years down the road, who's going to believe my pretty protesting road sign? Skeptic, me? I just look under my car every morning before going out to get stung - first of all to make sure I'm not going to flatten the cat, and then for brake fluid! Peter. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham asked: If Darwin's theory of evolution was sound, then how can one explain the phenomenon of the honey bee that has evolved to often have the new queen kill her sisters, thereby putting all the hives eggs in one basket (or bee :-). If this queen fails to mate or is lost during the mating flight the hive is doomed. When the first virgin hatches it is not *often* (as Graham said above) she kills her sister queens but *always* from my observations. In fact in a large commercial incubator full of queens about to imerge the first and all other virgins emerging go on a killing spree if the beekeeper does not get nucs made up on time. None of us know what the original apis mellifera queens were like so it is hard to determine what exactly has evolved. With swarming the *old queen* heads the swarm and the swarm leaves most times *before* the new queens hatch ( swarm cells sealed) sooo the bees have at least a 50% survival rate (general statement). With supercedure the old queen is dispatched by the new mated queen ( at times both lay for awhile) or workers at the correct time. If the old queen about to be superceded is laying eggs then larva will be available to raise another queen many times if the virgin queen is killed on a mating flight or for about a week after the old ssupercedure queen has been dispatched. Bees after three hours( data from our researchers) know they are queenless and can begin to build queen cells. Bees will raise an inferior queen from too old of larva and then supercede her later to survive. All types of survival methods are available to the bees. Are these survival methods from evolution I have not a clue. Bees today are very different however than bees I kept years ago in my opinion. Years ago when a hive swarmed the bees almost always would raise another queen and the beekeeper would only lose the honey crop for the year. Now I see a percentage of bees which swarm and old hive never raises a new queen. Myself and other beekeepers which have noticed the problem are at a loss as to why the problem has became greater. We do however drop those bees from breeding programs many times in case genetics is the problem. Ideas? Because BEE-L is a world list and many books on beekeeping abound and there are many variations of the above. The above old hive/ swarm scenario may not be exactly what happens in your opinion. The above is what happens in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:37:32 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin, Accepting that honey is mainly Oxygen, Hydrogen and Carbon - it doesn't sound like a promising fertilizer to me. Let me know if you hear to the contrary! Could try it on sugar beet plants I suppose. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:42:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Graham, >Now why has the application of Darwin's evolution theory not naturally >breed this trait out of the honey bee as the smarter plan would be to keep >several virgins alive until one is successfully mated. > I don't think the evolutionary hypothesis is a good model of the real world. However, those who do believe it is accurate could just say, "Honeybees are still around so that is evidence that the system has had a better success rate than failure rate. Who knows what specific traits will be most successful in the long run?" Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline Peter pointed out the view of the "larger" beekeeper: > The average consumer looks at two things: > 1. Price - the cheaper, the better for the housekeeping budget. > 2. Consistency and packaging. But he also said: > I agree, in most cases, bread, cheese, milk, beer, you name it, when > produced in an artisanal manner (read local) result in a product that > fairs well when compared with mass produced, industrialized foods. Well then, stop being such an enthusiastic supporter of, and willing participant in, the industrial supply system! First, go get a copy of "The Cave" by Jose Saramago, and read it. I'm serious - it is a novel, but it will clearly explain the choice we all face in regard to "industrialized" products versus "artisan" products. But until you get a chance to read the book, exactly what part of "Honey is not a fungible commodity" is unclear? Stop trying to position your honey as a "cost-effective sweetener". It isn't. It never will be. It will only be sold at a profit as a PREMIUM-GRADE product. For every mass-marketed, low-end, version of a food, there is a high-end, elite, snobby version. Become snooty! While this requires an admission that one's ability to produce honey in drums may exceed one's ability to bottle, market, and promote one's product, this is the difference between a selling "a crop" and marketing "a product". Downsizing to a level appropriate to your capacity to sell at a higher profit margin (direct to stores and/or direct to the consumer) does not mean poverty. What's wrong with reducing your hives by 1/4 or even 1/2 if you clear $3 per pound rather than less than a dollar? (This is called "right-sizing" in "Business 101".) Better yet, you have dealt "the mass-market competition" a mortal blow, by preventing them from buying your honey to blend with the very stuff that you despise so much. While some other beekeeper might choose to take your place as a willing stooge of "the competition", he will soon face the same frustrations that you currently face, and may not last long. If enough beekeepers "went artisan", this would leave the competition exposed. They would not have an adequate supply of high-quality honey to blend with cheap honey, and they would be forced to either pay more to buy quality honey (which would force them to raise their prices) or force them to bottle and sell a product that will be inferior. To those who might scoff at the statement above, I need only ask why packers buy ANY higher-priced honey from people like Peter when they also import honey from the cheap source du jour at less than half the price. They MUST have Peter's honey to blend in, or their product would be unappetizing swill. > Local bakers have deliveries during the night of frozen dough from > which arrives the famous baguette - most are going out of business. And what can one learn from this? That "boutique" products are a profitable niche only as long as the actual product is worthy of the name! jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 03:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Graham Law Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim wrote: “Well, the worker bees DO try to keep several queens "ready" in swarming scenarios. They will cluster around a queen cell to both protect it from a newly-emerged queen, and prevent the queen in the cell from emerging "too early".” This is true I have videoed such behavior several times but the ‘protected’ queen is not held until the aggressor 1st virgin is mated, it seems to me by observation that the 'protected' queen might be held whilst the 1st emerged queen leaves as a Cast. This strategy is good but not the behavior I was referring to when the 1st Queen kills the others. Apologies for my previous collegial use of ‘Sound’ this is UK English for “reliable/dependable” Regards Graham Law Leicestershire UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:21:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Graham and all Graham's original question assumes that swarming is 'exclusively' a method of reproduction. My thoughts on this matter stem from noticing that sometimes when multiple swarming occurs, it does so to the detriment of the parent hive which dies out. I have also noticed that when multiple swarms occur they head off in different directions. My attitude is that swarming, although it has elements of, and the appearance of a reproduction method... It is actually a way of exploring the available forage and that extinction of any individual colony is of no consequence, because survival of the fittest is enabled by the multiplicity of such swarms and the different areas that they end up in. This strategy is a flexible in its application, simply by the variance in forage in the areas swarmed into. In other words... a caste that finds itself in an environment with a large concentration of 'virgin eating' birds is in a less fit place for survival even though the virgin may have identical genetic features to others that find themselves in good forage patches without so many birds. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:03:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: What do with contaminated honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Peter Dillon sez: Accepting that honey is mainly Oxygen, Hydrogen and Carbon - it doesn't sound like a promising fertilizer to me. Maybe not directly as a fertilizer, but possibly as an "activator" for the bacteria that live in compost piles. I have heard of a number of sweet or sugar based substances being used as bacterial activators in compost piles, and such compost subsequently is used as a soil conditioner/fertilizer. When I wash honey residue (that I do not need or where it is not cost effective to extract 100% of it from cappings, etc.) out of wax, I dump the dilute honey water mixture into my compost pile with the intent that my composting bacterial will get a boost. At least I don't feel like it is being wasted entirely. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:19:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: street light effect on bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just realized that there could be an effect of a nearby street light on one of my colonies. IS there any effect of the street light on bee behavior?? The hive is new this year and I haven't noticed anything peculiar from the bees (yet). Mark Hubbard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:45:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: street light effect on bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did notice bees wanting to go for a bug light I had one year. So I put it on a timer to come on later at night. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: street light effect on bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Hubbard wrote: > I just realized that there could be an effect of a nearby street light on one of my colonies. IS there any effect of the street light on bee behavior?? I lost a swarm once, because of the mercury vapor light on the pole overhead. When it bacme dark, and the light came on, all the bees went up into the light. They were directly under it, and not established yet. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:14:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: street light effect on bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Night flight on full moon does happen. What happens is that I can't see. A pure gain amplifier with a transistor on the end of the microphone wire can hear flights. Shave the top flat metal surface with a hacksaw till you just get thru the surface. Ear phones connected up and you are ready for the night of dodging freight trains sounds. Put some good sugar syrup out and count'em. I am interested in the results. It rains in Florida every day and night and the bees are in a hibernation state with the Drones in hive. This means there is little flights at all at night. Michael Housel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:23:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: hives per acre?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/2003 3:56:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com writes: > >> I am curious. I have not been able to find an answer to how many hives >> per acre is enough. The 22 acre area I'm speaking of is an apple orchard, >> with big vegi and flower gardens all around the houses. What do the folks here >> think? >> >> Kathy > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:18:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: hives per acre?? In-Reply-To: <78.43142829.2c35eac4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Generally, one hive per acre for apples (there are other, competing blooms at that time and apple is not usually the most attractive). Don't figure on a honey crop (although I did get one last year), but use it as a spring build-up crop instead. Other crops can require more or fewer hives, but one per acre is a good rule of thumb. I was just sent an excerpt that dealt with training bees to low-yield crops and the Moscow study claimed that flax required 30 colonies per acre (increasing seed yield 600 percent), while "trained" bees required only 4 or 5 per acre (training consisting of feeding a flower-infused sugar syrup each morning). Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathy E Cox > > >> I am curious. I have not been able to find an answer to how many hives > >> per acre is enough. The 22 acre area I'm speaking of is an apple orchard. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:46:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: hives per acre?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a 32 acre farm and found that 12 FOR ME was enough. But most of mine was wild black berries, tulip popular and such. I never did have and apple orchard (yet). Start off with at least that amount and increase it until your getting good pollination or the hive apple honey production per hive goes down. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: hives per acre?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Crop Pollination by Bees(2000), Delaplane and Mayer recommend an = average bee density of 1.5 (3.7/ha) bee hives per acre for apple. The veggies and flowers could be covered under the hives for apples. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kathy E Cox=20 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu=20 Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 4:23 PM Subject: [BEE-L] hives per acre?? In a message dated 7/2/2003 3:56:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com writes: > >> I am curious. I have not been able to find an answer to how many = hives >> per acre is enough. The 22 acre area I'm speaking of is an apple = orchard, >> with big vegi and flower gardens all around the houses. What do the = folks here >> think? >> >> Kathy > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info = --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:21:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working In-Reply-To: <200307021935.h62JWV3E029591@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200307021935.h62JWV3E029591@listserv.albany.edu>, Graham Law writes >the smarter plan would be to keep >several virgins alive until one is successfully mated. Apparently at least one of the tropical stingless bees (Melipona I think) keeps several virgins which are not time-limited like apis mellifera (and all other apis?). This is another interesting limitation which we might think not helpful in the long term. Trouble is, evolution often optimises over a large number of variables and over wide variations in climates and environments. Can we really manage to conceptualise everything? -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:31:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working In-Reply-To: <000701c340ed$dd07ab40$63ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000701c340ed$dd07ab40$63ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >Now I see a percentage of bees which swarm and old hive never raises a new >queen. Myself and other beekeepers which have noticed the problem are at a >loss as to why the problem has became greater. We do however drop those bees >from breeding programs many times in case genetics is the problem. Is varroa part of the problem. If the swarm times itself so most varroa are in the brood, it will have a good start with low varroa. I had a large swarm reswarm this year before any brood had hatched, so it might have had no varroa at all!! It was big enough to lose bees dying normally, and still leave enough bees to cover the brood (8 frames). It did leave sealed cells so it is not the same problem. I did give it 2 deeps and 2 shallows to draw which it did and fill most of them. I suspect my decision to keep them in one deep after 1 week and 5 frames of brood caused congestion and she ran out of room in spite of my intuition to run them on 2 deeps (remember in my area of the UK most colonies run on 1 deep most of the time and 1 "demaree" split or at most 2 does the trick in spring). -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:49:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: hives per acre?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy said: The 22 acre area I'm speaking of is an apple orchard, If the above apple orchard is a typical apple orchard I would not recommend a permanent yard within two miles. Most in our area use around 14 sprays of poison to control insects. The poison drifts onto the clover , dandelions etc. under the trees and bee kills result. It is ok to move in and out of apple orchards as long as the orchard owners are aware of your hives being in the area and can warn you of pesticide spraying. Bee kills might still result from two miles but with penncap M bees will die before they return to the hive. Many not typical orchards (organic and IPM) actually keep hives in the orchard year around but as beekeepers they are aware of the bees and do not use sprays like Penncap M. which is a number one killer of honey bees. I wish Penncap M had never been invented. Sprays which are put on after the bees stop flying and dry before the bees return in the morning usually do not result in bee kill *BUT* when a major honey flow is on bees will be killed as bees work until till dark and return at sun up and the morning dew keeps the sprays wet. The term *hives per acre* only applies when trying to get a crop pollinated. Most areas will handle a few to around ten hives of bees in the U.S. *unless* areas of miles of row crops which bees do not work and many times those areas will support beekeeping *if* there are areas of clover etc. alongside the fields. Choose wisely your bee yards . Hope I have helped . Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:16:48 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now I see a percentage of bees which swarm and old hive never raises a = new >queen. Myself and other beekeepers which have noticed the problem are = at a >loss as to why the problem has became greater. We do however drop those = bees >from breeding programs many times in case genetics is the problem. This problem is probably caused by the use of coumaphos in the hives. Best regards Roger Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:45:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Organization: Tahuya River Apiaries Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit superbee wrote: >Now I see a percentage of bees which swarm and old hive never raises a new > >>queen. Myself and other beekeepers which have noticed the problem are at a >>loss as to why the problem has became greater. We do however drop those bees >> >>from breeding programs many times in case genetics is the problem. > > >This problem is probably caused by the use of coumaphos in the hives. > Hello Roger and All, Many different affects are happening at the same time to our honeybees. Our intervention with chemicals will cause an affect on hive behavior. Remember that chemicals ( Pheromones) controls a lot of the hives behavior. The complexity of the 200 pheromones is outside of our reach at this time. The studies of queen pheromones alone has a great variance. Mark Winston sent me some hard copy of his work, when we were have a problem with the white line of Russian stock. My position on adding chemicals into beehives still stands. You better understand the down side of your short term fix. In nature , change comes slow. With man helping out ( jet planes ), change comes fast.Then we try to have a fast fix. The problem is more the nature of Man, than nature itself. We debate or discus different little parts of the puzzle. That is the only way we can explain things to each other. One piece at a time. Look down into a beehive and explain to me , what you see. If you are very observant , you can write a very long book. That is why there is so much literature on honeybees. I have more questions than answers. I have been keeping bees for over 35 years. The bees have been wonderful for me. I'm grateful for the gifts they have given me. Its way beyond honey and pollen. Take the time to let the bees teach you. Very Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: Now I see a percentage of bees which swarm and old hive never raises a new >queen. Roger said: This problem is probably caused by the use of coumaphos in the hives. We actually first began to see the problem in the early 90's before chemicals were ever used. D.r Shiminuki and others blamed genetics and a narrow gene pool back then. Wax contamination could cause many problems in the future. In my own operation I replaced around 50% of the comb this spring. I replaced 25-30% two years ago. The rest of the comb is less than five years old . Lawrence C. (Florida Inspection Service ) told us at the ABF convention that a Florida beekeeper replaced around a million combs in the last two years (but I already knew the beekeeper did). Heck of a bon fire. As we move away from the days of fluvalinate & coumaphos replacing comb might be a wise move. All the bee supply houses think replacing comb is a great idea! With honey prices up replacing comb might be a excellent investment for the beekeeper. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:47:49 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daniel Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working In-Reply-To: <001a01c34269$081810a0$7aac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Wax contamination could cause many problems in the future. In my own >operation I replaced around 50% of the comb this spring. I replaced 25-30% >two years ago. >The rest of the comb is less than five years old . > Darwinism is about adaption, variations. The bees adapt well, offering them old comb, and working with contaminated wax, they move out. I'm having close contact to one place here that's offering producing foundation from the beekeepers own wax. Been there, seen lots of different colors of wax and contamination, smelling wax etc. Rule of thumb: Holding the comb against the light, you should see you hand behind it as a shadow. (citation from: Swiss Beekeeping Book, "Der Schweizerische Bienenvater") Daniel, Switzerland. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:41:44 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob wrote >>As we move away from the days of fluvalinate & coumaphos = replacing comb might be a wise move.<< Yes Bob, but what about the wax that you use to replace the combs with, = is it really residue free? Even at concentrations of less than 100ppm = there is a problem. =20 Best regards Roger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 06:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 3 Jul 2003 to 4 Jul 2003 (#2003-186) In-Reply-To: <200307050400.h654013C028224@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 7/4/03 23:00, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: Bob said, > With honey prices up replacing comb might be a excellent investment for the beekeeper. Wouldn't replacing the wax combs be rather more economical when honey prices are down? Then you would be using low priced honey to convert into wax instead of high priced honey. Am I thinking wrong here? I think I'd rather use all the wax comb I could to store a honey crop than use the resources to build new comb. Mike 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger wrote: Yes Bob, but what about the wax that you use to replace the combs with, is it really residue free? It is if you use plastic. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:37:57 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, It is really strange that you are having these problems if your hives = are "coumaphos free". Have you ever used it to treat your hives? It = takes about six years to approach low levels after one use. I have = always put these strange conditions in hives (by this is I mean the = inability to raise queens) down to an excess of chemical residues within = the hive. Which strain of bees are you using? Best regards Roger Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:52:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 3 Jul 2003 to 4 Jul 2003 (#2003-186) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said, > With honey prices up replacing comb might be a excellent investment for the beekeeper. Mike said: Wouldn't replacing the wax combs be rather more economical when honey prices are down? Then you would be using low priced honey to convert into wax instead of high priced honey. Complicated question and not one answer fits all situations. The obvious answer to Mike's question would be yes but: Beekeepers in the Peace River district of Canada and the best honey producing areas of the U.S. (North Dakota)draw most comb on honey flows. The bees seem to do their best work when populations are at yearly height and flows are intense. Temperature is a big factor in getting comb drawn. Comb drawn in early spring with syrup always seems to be a problem. As temps warm up the comb drawing gets better. Syrup is without a doubt cheaper than honey today so getting comb drawn on syrup makes sense but trips to feed bees needs to be figured in and with plastic at times the bees simply plug the brood area and the bees make queen cells and swarm ( mainly a problem with beekeepers running many hives). When you check your bees you find the hive has swarmed and the super of plastic foundation has not been touched. generally speaking I agree with Mike but many beekeepers see drawing comb on a strong honey flow the best way to get the *best* brood comb. With plastic many beekeepers report problems with comb drawn in early spring (cold nights) with syrup. You get drawn comb but not perfect comb all the time.like you will when drawn in a strong honey flow. Supers are important to the beekeeper to catch a honey flow BUT your drawn brood comb is maybe of greater importance. Poorly drawn comb problems are forever as bees are not interested in tearing down drone comb and transition comb and replacing with nice worker cells. If they did then reducing to 4.9mm foundation would be easy. I believe I have covered the pros and cons of the issue. Comb drawn on syrup or on a honey flow both work with pros and cons. The high price being paid for honey today is certainly a factor to consider if beekeeping on a larger scale. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working In-Reply-To: <000b01c34331$f291b640$9eac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:13 PM 7/5/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Is it really residue free? > >It is if you use plastic. Is this still true if you get plastic with wax coating? Where to the various plastic foundation manufactures get their wax for coating the foundation? That aside, I've noticed in my new observation hive that the bees drew out areas of the plastic foundation much faster where there was an accidental thick layer of wax (instead of the normal thin coat), apparently reforming and using the thick wax for the cell walls. If results are favorable when I try recoating new plastic side by side with normal coated foundation in normal hives, I may end up going with non-coated plastic foundation, and simply coat them myself with my own wax which is apistan and checkmite free. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:25:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger asked: It is really strange that you are having these problems if your hives are "coumaphos free". Have you ever used it to treat your hives? I never said I had not used checkmite. I was one of the first to use checkmite in Missouri (check archives). I pushed to get the section 18 which came a year late in my opinion. Many of my friends (which I won't name) did not think we needed the section 18 till they found fluvalinate resistant varroa also. Roger said: It takes about six years to approach low levels after one use. Can you point me to any research to support the above as coumaphos levels in wax has been lower than anticapated by the USDA when coumaphos was given the section 18 ( Jeff Pettis USDA). Lots of comb has been tested in many areas of the U.S. >From what I have been told by the best researchers in the U.S. they are finding coumaphos in wax (and any other chemical which has ever been used plus many evironmental contaminants due to the new testing equipment the USDA bee labs have bought recently)) but there is at presant time no concern until the level reaches a certain percent (Jeff Pettis USDA). The level has been reached in cases in which illegal methods have been used. Most wax in the U.S. in brood comb has fallen short of the amount considered to effect hive performance. I will stick with the experts at the USDA as those people have got the best track record in my book. Roger said: I have always put these strange conditions in hives (by this is I mean the inability to raise queens) down to an excess of chemical residues within the hive. As I said in a prior post. The problem was noticed and discussed at bee conventions before either tracheal or varroa mite entered the U.S. and chemicals were ever used and the problem is still around.Genetics was the decision on the matter by the experts back then. Surely you can see genetics could be the problem? Other than the Buckfast bee our imports were stopped in the 20's (legal that is). Roger asked: Which strain of bees are you using? I believe I have used every strain of bee ever sold in the U.S. at one time or the other. Some strains did better than others in regards to requeening after swarming which lends to the genetics hypothesis. The problem never got worse after varroa arrived (and chemical use began) in my opinion but maybe others on the list which have observed the problem will share their stories? The main strains I am using now are Italians ( from California and the best honey producers of any bee I ever used but do have problems with tracheal mites) , Italian /carniolan cross out of Texas (which impressed Ohio Queen breeders so much they went and got queens to work into their breeding program I was told) and pure bred Russian queens bred to Russian drones (California). What chemicals have you used Roger and what types of problems have you observed which you believe are caused by your use of a chemical to treat varroa? Queen and brood problems? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 03:05:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Jul 2003 to 5 Jul 2003 (#2003-187) In-Reply-To: <200307060405.h663JG56028046@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 7/5/03 23:00, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: Mike (me)wrote commenting about using expensive honey to build comb. Bob wrote: > Beekeepers in the Peace River district of Canada and the best honey > producing areas of the U.S. (North Dakota)draw most comb on honey flows. Not quibbling about quality of comb built from honey flows as apposed to that from syrup. Just thinking that using old comb for honey flows of expected high priced honey would be more economical than scrapping old comb and having bees use part of the nectar resources for new comb production rather than for storage of high dollar honey. Next question: When does old comb need to be replaced and can one plan for that in expected low honey price years? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 07:18:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: mating of a queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question for the crowd... What is the time frame for a virgin queen to mate? After she emerges, how long is she able to successfully mate? I assume that in nature she will sometimes not be able to fly due to weather, so there must be a window of opportunity. Also, I have had the opportunity to mark a queen when she emerges, but before her mating flights. Have any of you found trouble with mating a queen after being marked? The honey flow is in full swing here in northern Illinois. Perhaps I am just easily impressed, but the bees seem healthier here - build ups have been excellent and swarms more prevailant - than in recent years. I would like to think of this as a sign of mite-resistant bees... well, maybe. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lloyd spear Subject: Replacing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "All the bee supply houses think replacing comb is a great idea! With honey prices up replacing comb might be a excellent investment for the beekeeper." What do they tell us beekeepers about the concentration of fluvalinate and coumaphous in the foundation? Do they know? Early this year I had occasion to have some tests made of wax sold for brood foundation and the contamination levels were very high. A friend shared a copy of the lab results with the USDA folks and they said "what else is new"....they are well aware of the general level of residuals. BTW, similar tests ran on comb honey foundation (presumably made only from capping wax) showed almost no level of residuals. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Darwinism is Not Quite Working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > The main strains I am using now are Italians ( from California and the best > honey producers of any bee I ever used but do have problems with tracheal > mites) , Italian /carniolan cross out of Texas (which impressed Ohio Queen > breeders so much they went and got queens to work into their breeding > program I was told) and pure bred Russian queens bred to Russian drones > (California). Bob you did not mention SMR queens, have you given up on them? mac studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Jul 2003 to 5 Jul 2003 (#2003-187) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asked: When does old comb need to be replaced and can one plan for that in expected low honey price years? When I first started keeping bees (1950's) the old timers only replaced brood comb when the comb had problems. 30 to 50 year old brood comb was common. Certain beekeepers always replaced a percent of comb ( perfect comb also) and others were replacing comb to keep bigger bees in their outfits but these people in my opinion were a small segment of the industry. In the 60 to 70's brood comb was replaced as beekeepers started saying with research from researchers such as Elbert R.Jaycox (author Beekeeping in the Midwest and Beekeeping in Illinois)that bees raised in old brood comb were smaller. Up to 17%. Many thought at the time that a bee 17% smaller would not produce honey like the normal size bee would. The movement to replace comb on a regular basis to keep those inferior smaller bees out of the apiary and the movement to larger cell sizes continued. I personally never thought a percentage of 17% smaller bees were of a concern. In Europe comb has been replaced on a regular time schedule for years in many places but not the case in the U.S. in my opinion. Many (not all beekeepers) do see the value of replacing comb *now* to remove any contaminates left from chemical use in the hive. Many beekeepers will not replace comb until they get to a contamination level which problems start developing. As USDA people (Jeff Pettis and others) have said the level has been determined (in their opinion) and has been reached (in cases of illegal coumaphos use) as real problems have been seen. I could go on for hours on the subject but I believe I have given Mike and others the history (in my opinion) of brood comb replacement (U.S.) and things to consider as to when to replace old brood comb. Wait for the low honey price years to replace comb is one option. All across the Midwest we are seeing a below average honey crop. In many areas about half of last years crop. Kind of ironic with high honey prices comes about half a honey crop which makes income about like a year before high honey prices. The old saying "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched" certainly applies to a honey crop. I am thankful for a crop (which is already in supers) which will keep me from having to buy honey on the open market to supply my stores and hopefully extra to sell in bulk. All my extra bulk has been spoken for already . My friends feel the same way as U.S. honey bulk prices are still creeping higher. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 18:13:49 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Darwinism is not quite working MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, You wrote:>What chemicals have you used Roger and what types of problems = have you observed which you believe are caused by your use of a chemical to treat varroa? Queen and brood problems?< The chemicals we have used are: bromopropylate malathion coumaphos amitraz flumethrin fluvalinate To control varroa - and also PDB and napthalene for wax moth. We used coumaphos in two periods: 1982-1986 and 2000-2003. The problem = really seemed to be closely associated with the use of this chemical. = Maybe it is the joint effect of coumaphos with one or more of the above = chemicals. However, bad cases of the problem can be found in many = places around the world where coumaphos has been or is being used! One thing, when/if Aethina tumida invades Cyprus, it will die as soon as = it puts its foot thru the front door..........lol. Best regards Roger Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 10:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: SMR queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mac asked: Bob you did not mention SMR queens, have you given up on them? My partner and I introduced queens we raised from SMR breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries a couple years ago. I am still tracing the progress of a few of those queens for their varroa tolerance (left untreated). Although those SMR daughters do run low varroa counts (actually lower than any other bees) I am not pleased with brood pattern, honey production and spring buildup. So I have been content to have introduced the SMR traits into our bees and have not ordered new SMR breeder queens to raise queens from. If doing the project over again I would use drones from the queens I use from the Wootens in California as those bees possess all the qualities are SMR daughters lacked. You need to remember our experiment was with only two SMR breeder queens of only two of the available lines (red & yellow). The results might be different if done today (new lines) as the problems we had were expected and even predicted by both Dr. Harbo & Dr. Harris. Interestingly Dr.Harbo & Dr. Harris predicted the exact results we had before hand. Buying production queens with the SMR trait from a reliable queen breeder such as the Weavers in Texas might be the best option as they have already scratched bees from the program like we had and through their breeding program have improved the areas I was disappointed in I have been told by friends using the SMR line of bees sold by Danny Weaver. Others sell production queens with the SMR trait but the Weaver line is sold by Mid Con Agrimarketing which supplies most of the hobby beekeepers in our area so their results I am most familiar with as those beekeepers tell me about their observations at our Midwestern Beekeepers assn. meetings. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: How To Lose A Queen Something "scary" happened yesterday. I went on an idle stroll though the hives with the dog on Friday evening, and noticed that far fewer sorties were being launched by one hive than other nearby hives. So, I did a quick brood/larvae/egg/queencell check on the colony in the cool of Saturday morning. I did things the way I always do, stacking supers and brood chambers on an overturned outer cover at roughly 45-degree angles to each other, and so on. The hive configuration consisted of a Sundance pollen trap, 4 mediums for brood, and a pair of Ross Round supers that are still unfinished due to having more rain than sun since April. The bees are NWCs, so 4 mediums >>IS<< a "compressed" brood chamber. I found eggs, larvae, and brood in acceptable amounts, so my concern was apparently misplaced. I rarely bother to look for the queen herself. I just look at her handiwork, which is a much quicker task. This colony has a new spring queen, and swarming time was (supposed to have been) over a while ago here in Virginia, USA. I reassembled the hive. I glanced down, and saw the QUEEN climbing up the OUTSIDE of the lowest brood chamber!! She was alone. She had my color spot on her. She was uninjured. I tilted up the next hive body above the queen, and braced the crack open with the handle of my bee brush. She slowly climbed back in the hive. One could almost hear the royal grumbling in a tiny, tinny insect voice about having to trudge around in full daylight without a single retainer or lady in waiting to attend to her needs and keep the paparazzi and autograph hounds away. How she got onto the side of the lowest brood chamber, I do not know. Perhaps when I pulled one of the frames from it in my counting of "frames of brood". Perhaps when I removed one of the other chambers up from the lowest. Perhaps when I was putting them back. But this was clearly a case of "beekeeper error". Had I not noticed her, she would have been unable to get through the pollen trap and back into the hive. (Lloyd Spear's "Sundance" pollen traps are well-designed, but there is simply no such thing as a pollen trap that allows a queen's passage through the screens.) She would have ended up on the bottom board below the trap, where she would have been fed and well cared-for, but unable to lay eggs until I noticed the problem. Even then, would I have looked for the queen below the pollen trap on the bottom board? I doubt it. I wish I could figure out what I did "wrong". The odds against both "losing the queen", and also finding her right under your nose? I'd guess that they are about the same as being hit by a meteorite. jim (There is no "good luck" or "bad luck" there is merely random chance and coincidence. The universe is not just curved, it's completely twisted.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:24:20 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Systemic Insecticides and "global warming" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Fischer supports his comments relating to my observations of sunflowers flowering earlier than normal in a manner that seems to indicate that a few more joules are required in the "global warming scenario - point taken! The original title to the mail was a little pushy - but seemed to capture modern day media speak. But - there they are, well in advance, this year! Barley is 10 days early and so is Rape. Returning back to the premise that if these plants and other crops are treated with systemic materials (often as seed treatment). These systemic molecules are found to be present in plant tissue for * number of days (resulting in plants being protected from various forms of attack) - and after this period it is (they are) either not present or converted into harmless metabolites, inoffensive to honey bees at the start and during flowering period. I wish to know: Is the length of time the material is present in the plant: a. For a fixed period (+/- SD being taken into account) from seed treatment date / germination. b. For a variable period depending on how long it takes for a plant to attain a particular stage in its life cycle. If it is the former - then the possibility of a shorter than average period being taken to arrive at a flowering stage may result in toxic material being available to honey bees via. nectar/ pollen. If the average time taken to get from seed germination to flowering is 60 days and a material gained acceptance on to the market because data suggests that after 50 days that the systemic material is no longer "active" - there is a risk allowance of 10 days. But: If the plant is able to (due to weather conditions) arrive at flowering in 45 days, then potential poisoning may take place. Who is liable - I suggest that it is not the beekeeper. The Farmer ?, for putting a substance in reach of honey bees, if it is stated that the product should not be used during flowering periods? The Manufacturer, for supplying a toxin that is possibly available in nectar/ pollen? To my mind, an insecticide that due to unseasonable growth conditions becoming available to honey bees should be removed from the market - even though under "normal" growth conditions allows for "safe" use. It maybe argued that one year showing advanced flowering - tough, beekeepers accept the consequences! But what happens if this becomes 2 years out of 5 years. All this may be considered highly hypothetical, searching for problems. But looking at what has happened in the past - we beekeepers have harvested far too many dead colonies as a result of pesticide poisoning. IMHO, the risk allowance between what kills, what appears to be sub-lethal poisoning and No Observed Effect levels is important. When molecules are being put onto the market, is there enough lea way allowing for shortened growth periods to occur? We beekeepers have our own related problem! Example: Antibiotic applications have to be undertaken allowing for a period to pass before honey may be collected from treated hives. Due to advances in detection techniques becoming rather accurate at extremely low levels / the fixing of residue levels - much care and strict adherence to timetables must take place. But if honey starts arriving in supers earlier! We, I presume cannot continue applying materials in the traditional manner/ time frame - If we do continue, then the resulting honey crop will be considered "unfit" I do not think the proffering of the excuse that the flowers arrived early this year would be accepted as a valid reason for having more than 1ppm (or what ever the final residue levels are fixed at for a particular material) in the resulting honey crop. We have to obey the regulations - so should the agro-chemical manufacturers/ users. Maybe this has all be taken into account already, but I have no evidence that it has, and would be most pleased to be informed that it has. Regards, Peter PS: My lad appears to have grown 3 cm. in 120 days - can this be put down to climate change? and who can I claim against since his clothing labeled "15 years" does not fit this 15 year old. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 17:31:57 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Systemic Insecticides and "global warming" Peter Dillon posed an interesting and difficult question: > Observing the growth rate that appears to have occurred in certain areas of France this year, > I pose this for thought: > This year sunflowers are flowering up to 3 weeks in advance of normal - growth rates allowing flower > formation to occur early. Therefore, if a systemic product is deemed to be active for 60 days, > but now flowering is occurring in a period that is shorter than the 60 days - what is the consequence > on "the label" for the insecticide? - presuming that the active material should not be present during > the flowering period! That's a tough one. I'm not qualified to say exactly how a systemic insecticide is metabolized by a plant, or build a model for long this might take under different weather conditions. I can point out that available information clearly indicates that it varies with application method. I don't even know if a "treated" seed would be affected by factors like heavier rainfall, which is known to affect ground treatments. I think that what data exists is not going to be useful to answer this question. The existing data talks about how long the "treatment" is effective in killing pest insects, which clearly MUST be a much higher "dose" than a "dose" that could be sub-lethal but debilitating to a bee. One thing I do know is that the early blooms are NOT due to "global warming". Not just yet, anyway. :) Any change caused by global warming sufficient to change average blooming dates of plants by three weeks in temperate zones (like France, where Peter lives) would come AFTER we see icecaps melt, the ocean level rise, and the offering of high-priced beachfront property in places that were never "beachfront" before. A "few degrees warmer" won't add up to much in the early spring after last frost, which can be verified by anyone will to calculate the "degree days" from last frost to bloom, but the same "few degrees" can melt polar icecaps. How many degrees might melt the icecaps? The number "2" comes up a lot. Maybe it is 4, maybe 6. I don't think anyone really knows for sure, but it is certainly less than 10. So let's imagine everything is 2 degrees warmer. A mere 2 degrees would be swamped out by plain old "weather variation" in regard to bloom periods. Here's a good example: http://www.entomology.cornell.edu/Extension/Woodys/GDDtracker.htm This is a map of New York state, showing the total of "growing degree days" to date for various automated monitoring stations around the state. As the map shows, even a small distance can make a difference of nearly 100 degree days Looking at the average of early spring seasonal temperature changes, a good rule of thumb is that you will see one degree increase every four days, and you can model the "typical" spring by assuming that you will have four days with equal "high" and "low" temperatures, then another four days with a one-degree increase in both the high and the low, and so on. Since little or no plant growth happens until you get above 50 F, the impact in early spring would be only "+2". After the average low temperature got above 51 F, then the effect would be "+4" from that point on. If you think of the graph of daily totals of degree-days to date, and add 2 degrees to all the temperatures, you still have a straight line: y = mx + b ...but you are simply adding 2 to "b", which moves the line upwards two notches on the y axis. If we take my data for April - July in Virginia (a typical period for "the blooms"), and start counting degree days on April 1, you end up with only a few days difference in reaching the same total degree-days in each month: Traditional Traditional Temps Temps +2 --------------- -------------- April 30 = 519 April 27 = 511 May 31 = 1355 May 27 = 1375 June 30 = 2630 June 25 = 2664 July 31 = 4120 July 22 = 4133 You can get more difference than the above in sunflower blooms simply by picking a different hybrid seed, as different strains have different bud-to-blooming periods. If you wanted to get the same number of degree-days "three weeks earlier" by the end of July, you'd need to have 8 degrees warmer highs and lows for the whole period, which would end up with the following degree-day totals: Traditional Traditional Temps Temps +8 --------------- -------------- April 30 = 519 April 21 = 507 May 31 = 1355 April 16 = 1349 June 30 = 2630 Jun 10 = 2595 July 31 = 4220 July 7 = 4270 Global warming? Yes it is happening. But a noticeable impact on bloom dates this year due to global warming? No way. jim (Who sold his beachfront house in Ft. Lauderdale in the 1980s, and moved to the mountains, but still owns land in Live Oak Florida. Why? Do the math on any global warming scenario you wish to choose, and look at a topo map of Florida. Consider where the "beach" will be.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::