From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:21:52 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2490748FE1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZde011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0308A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 177166 Lines: 3805 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:57:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Durk Ellison wrote: > Homo-toxicology is the treatment of bacterial, viral or parasitary > diseases by the specific bacteria, virus or parasite itself. I am a bit confused since a very similar procedure was touted by Organic Farming and Gardening as a pest control. Grind up the pest and spray it on the plants and the pests pick up all sorts of diseases and die. Now I learn that I was only making them healthy. I definitely need enlightenment. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:11:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Coumafos removal patent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all D. McBride found U.S. patent 6,586,610, "Method for removing coumafos from beeswax", I have tried many searches and cannot get a handle on it, can you remember what you were searching for when you came across it? Chemical contamination of beeswax seems to be being 'swept under the carpet' by many and any useful pointers for decontaminating it would be welcome. I have a page that throws a few thoughts at the problem http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/waxdecont.html but any other info would be helpful. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 02:22:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Creamed Honey In-Reply-To: <200308010402.h713tA41009174@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 7/31/03 23:00, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu wrote: > produce the desired smooth texture. I've been out of the loop concerning creamed honey for a number of years, but the procedure that I remember entailed the seeding of liquid honey with crystals of honey of the size desired, big crystals for coarse grained honey and very small crystals for very fine, smooth honey. I believe that temperature had something to do with it also, that a temperature of around 55 degrees was the optimum temperature to obtain fine grained creamed honey. You may correct me if these procedures are no longer true, in fact, please do so as I may be wanting to cream some honey in the near future. Mike located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:16:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Philip the herbalist, I would lay off the datura leaf & belladonna (yourself) for a couple days and then consider the bee varroa problem. In my opinion you are doing needless medicating of the bees. You might try one herb or method at a time and monitor varroa drop. By giving all the meds you list how will you ever know what (if anything) ever worked? The tobacco smoke will cause varroa to drop as will leaves from the orange tree. Maybe the datura will also. I would not get downwind from a smoker full of datura leaves. As far as your remedies for PMS ( name given to viruses in hives with heavy varroa infestations) I do not see those even curing viruses in humans. Viruses have to run their courses. Good luck with your project and keep the list posted. Keep in mind that unlike the other creatures you listed a honeybee only lives about six weeks in summer. Also Varroa & ticks are very similar (same family) . You need a way to kill the varroa AND NOT KILL THE BEE. Free the hive of varroa and the virus problems will go away. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott L Wiegel Subject: Re: Coumafos removal patent In-Reply-To: <002401c3580d$0d738700$0a00000a@orac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can also get to this patent application by going to http://www.uspto.gov; use the quick search link; type in "beeswax" in the first search term field; type in "coumafos" for the second term; ensure that the operator is "AND" (this eliminates many hits due to the fact that "beeswax" has lots of patents on its use). The end result should be the patent that you are looking for. Just to ensure, I have included the link to the actual patent application below (you may have to cut and paste to get the whole link into the Browser window). > D. McBride found > > U.S. patent 6,586,610, "Method for removing coumafos from beeswax", > > I have tried many searches and cannot get a handle on it, can you remember > what you were searching for when you came across it? > http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2F netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&p=1&S1=%28beeswax+A ND+coumafos%29&OS=beeswax+and+coumafos&RS=(beeswax+AND+coumafos) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Payton Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees In-Reply-To: <3F2A47B1.4030805@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:57 AM 8/1/2003 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >I am a bit confused since a very similar procedure was touted by Organic >Farming and Gardening as a pest control. Grind up the pest and spray it >on the plants and the pests pick up all sorts of diseases and die. Now I >learn that I was only making them healthy. I always thought this worked because they didn't like the smell of dead creatures like themselves. Something similar takes place in pastures. If you have sheep and cattle together, the sheep will eat the lush grass that grows around old cattle manure and the cattle will eat the lush grass around old sheep manure, but both give wide berth to the grass growing through manure from their own species. Mark Payton Saxtons River, VT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. McBride" Subject: Re: Coumafos removal patent My apologies to the list for not pasting in a link. This should take you straight to it: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser? Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search- adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=6,586,610.WKU.&OS=pn/6,586,610&RS=PN/6,58 6,610 In answer to the question about what I was searching for, it was for a "hive monitor", a product put out by Dalen products in the late 1970's, from what little information I have been able to gather. It is a scale that can be left on a hive year round. They no longer manufacture it, and the patent has long since expired, I just haven't been able to find it yet. Given the price tag of wiring a single hive for weight, temperature, humidity and sound frequency, I have been designing my own set of scales to leave on my hives, as well as an apiadicator to be able to plug in to check for sound levels, thermometer and hygrometer to follow. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:44:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Favorite books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison's terrible story of the ignorant beekeeper makes me wonder if recalling our favorite books is really enough answer to the original question - what books should be recommended to new beekeepers? Many people just don't read. Learning from a mentor is the best but slow - say at least 2 years before starting to keep your own hive. Should we be pressing beginners to look at a video? - much less effort, and as a picture is worth a thousand words, equal to the longest book. If so, what videos? I have yet to find one that is really sound in advice , clear, interesting - and that makes beekeeping look FUN! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:23:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Applying homotoxicology must be new to most of us, but interesting. I always feel the bee is more complex than our limited understanding of such a different form of life allows us to recognise. But....... The patient here is a colony showing symptoms usually ascribed to a virus, but not much varooa. Virus attacks have often been intensified by varooa - the mites are quickly killed but the level of virus in the bee population falls only slowly as the older bees die out. (So colonies treated too late in fall often die in spring). So this colony would normally be nursed with feeds of honey - and addition of frames of sealed brood if the population has dropped too low. The older bees will have defective bodies due the action of virus when they were larvae - can even homotoxicology rebuild an adult bee? Do their bodies have powers of recuperation, even if given the right stimulus? (I have always believed, anecdotally, that bees cannot repair damaged tissue - so they live until worn out, then die, in summer after only say 3 weeks as field bees). Can any scientist reply? The other questions on this colony relate to how it got sick in the first place. Bee viruses are supposedly endemic - bees with effective immune systems normally withstand them - unless the transfer mechanisms get a boost from varooa. Has the colony been given sugar feeds which are apparently common practice in USA? If so, the larvae will have been fed a deficient diet, as syrup has the same sugar content as nectar but includes none of the vital traces of minerals, vitamins and medicinal substances possibly expressed by plants in their nectar - 50% of modern drugs are extracted or derived from plants. A deficient diet may have produced these sickly bees - no point in curing them only to return them to the same unnatural systems of management. Annual losses of bee colonies are apparently enormously high in USA - the weather is often blamed but is the climate any less favourable than in say eastern Europe of Russia? To the onlooker, it is the culture of bee management in the USA that is inherently unhealthy - and if there is high colony mortality, no surprise. If homotoxicology addresses the balance between a living organism and its environment, can it help to detect and point out where modern beekeeping practices put bees under unendurable stress, so that instead of treating the sick we can strengthen the healthy ? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:12:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Coumafos removal patent > I have tried many searches and cannot get a handle > on it, can you remember what you were searching for > when you came across it? You need to search for the patent number from the search facility on http://www.uspto.gov . Here's the full text of the patent: http://tinyurl.com/iqm4 (The full URL is hundreds of characters long, so I'll use a redirect instead.) In brief, one adsorbs the contaminant into activated charcoal, and then removes the charcoal via filtration. The steps in this process, as patented by Bayer, are as follows: a) Melt the wax b) Add activated charcoal (20 to 50 grams per liter) c) "Prepare a homogeneous suspension" (set Mixmaster to "Blend") d) "Maintain the suspension for a period of time sufficient to adsorb coumaphos from the beeswax onto the charcoal" (Stir for from 30 to 60 mins so it won't settle out.) e) Filter the suspension in a pressure filter at a pressure differential across the filter medium of at least 1 bar (and should be 4 to 6 bar if you read with care. "One bar" is about 15 pounds per square inch, or "one atmosphere". For Europeans, 1 bar = 100 kilopascals [kPa]. ) This recipe is highly "obvious", as this exact method is used for LOTS of "filter out the junk" applications. I don't know what was considered "patentable", as I'd be willing to bet that every college student, and many of the students at better high schools have performed these exact steps in one application or another. I sure hope that they do not intend to ask for license fees to use this process, as the result would be funny, in a twisted sort of way: Beekeeper: "Mites and beetles are bothering my bees!" Bayer: "Here, buy my strips - they'll work." Beekeeper: "Are they safe?" Bayer: "Of course - we wouldn't sell anything that was not SAFE, for Pete's sake!" Beekeeper: "OK, I'll give it a try..." (Later...) Beekeeper: "Your strips have contaminated my wax! What do I do?" Bayer: "Pay me a license fee, and we'll let you use our 'secret process'." Beekeeper: "But your patent is bogus - I did that same stuff in chemistry class years ago!" Bayer: "We employ more lawyers than the total number of beekeepers in the USA..." Beekeeper: "Oh, I see your point. Here's your money." (Even Later...) Beekeeper: "Hey Bayer, I used your 'secret process', and I removed your coumaphos from my wax. Can I have your shipping address?" Bayer: "Uh, why?" Beekeeper: "I'm returning your chemicals to you. I don't want them, and I removed them from my wax, where they had no business being." Bayer: "You can't do THAT! That's a nasty organophosphate! We don't want it!" Beekeeper: "Funny, you never mentioned that when you sold the strips to me..." Bayer: "Regardless, I'm not giving you an address." Beekeeper: "OK then, I'll ship it all to Werner Wenning, your Chairman of the Board of Management at your corporate headquarters, '51368 Leverkusen' in Germany, as we simply have no approved method for disposal of this chemical here in the USA." jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: contaminated chinese honey Robin Dartington, representing the views of the fine old tradition of "handcrafted honey", said: > Jim Fischer came up with the curious view that > >> "As it stands now, we consume more than we >> produce, and we had better be nice to our >> counterparts who fly different flags, 'cause >> without them, the supply of honey to the >> consumer would be about as dependable as the >> supply of spare parts for 1975 Bricklins". It is only "curious" to one who continues to insist that beekeepers need only "keep bees", and need not concern themselves with extraneous details, like money, or marketing. Sadly, this is common among beekeepers, which explains why the bulk of beekeepers are doomed to toil in (well- deserved?) self-imposed abject poverty and absolute obscurity, while the creators of nothing more than a microwavable package for soup that fits into an automobile cupholder http://www.soupathand.com have sold out to Campbells, and retired to some tropical beach, where they will live in luxury, and be waited upon by a staff of 27 for the rest of their lives. > "We" here can only mean some body that is concerned > with continuity of supply to the USA population. > That does not mean honey producers. Oh, yes it >>>DOES<<< !!!!! The reality of selling something to consumers is very strict. If a specific food (or brand) cannot be obtained upon the whim of the consumer, the consumer buys something else. This is as true for farmer's markets as it is for retail stores. This is as true for the beekeeper who sells drums as it is for the beekeeper who bottles his own honey. The proof is that smart beekeepers will buy drums of honey from other beekeepers, just to assure that they can fill an order larger than their inventory. One cannot build any sort of a "brand image", if one's brand is not readily available for purchase. Yes, a micro-producer can always sell his or her 100 jars or even 4000 jars of honey a year with no trouble at all on a catch-as-catch-can basis, but this is little more than a "lemonade stand" operation. The larger your operation, the more important it is to be a consistent player at the wholesale and/or the retail level. At the high-volume end of the market, a lack of honey could shut down a production line, screw up shipping schedules, and frustrate a promotional campaign (like a "cents-off" coupon or an ad). In a worst-case scenario, it could cause the food processor to stop buying honey at all. Why do you think I used the Bricklin as an example? Note that there is no longer a Bricklin in my garage. There was at one time, and I loved the ugly little thing. But a constant scavenger-hunt for parts, insufficient to support regular rally competition, prompted me to sell a true "investment grade" highly-collectable car with acceleration that could untie your sneakers. If you can't drive it every day, it is NO LONGER A CAR. Its an expensive paperweight. It is "sculpture". It may be nice, but it isn't a car. It follows that if you can't buy honey every day, or at least any day you want to, it is no longer "food". It becomes a "delicacy", an obscure item. But it is only YOUR honey which remains obscure. Other people's honey is available more readily. Guess which one people remember and develop "brand loyalty" for? > Surely the business of honey producers is to only produce > pure honey and to sell it in a way that ensures the product > reaches customers in a fit and proper condition. The situation created by producers who wear blinders to the rest of the supply chain is one of the big reasons why people like Bob are so angry at packers, brokers, importers, exporters, and apparently, even some overseas producers he has never met. Here's what happened, in summary: a) In the 1950s, US Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson said to farmers, "Get big, or get out." He said this because he saw that increasing mechanization would "obsolete" the small field in favor of the larger field. Since the twin technologies of hybrid crops and fully mechanized farming both increased yields and reduced labor, he was NOT being "mean". He was trying to tell small farmers to sell out before they went bust trying to sell their higher-cost crop in competition with "lower-cost producers" who used hybrids and (expensive) mechanical equipment, producing larger crops at a lower price per unit. b) The result was that the typical US family pays less for better food (as a percentage of income) than just about anyone, anywhere at any time in the history of man. Hybrid crops also assure more consistent yields, and the yields are improving all the time. That's why the US can dispatch a few C-5 Galaxy (or C-17 Globemasters, C-141s, whatever) heavy-lift aircraft loaded with food within HOURS to any point on the planet for the victims of the latest natural disaster, and back it up with a stream of container ships that make the supply convoys of World War II look like a Sunday regatta at the lake. c) The downside for producers is that the technology of "increased yields" and "increased harvests" drives down price per unit, squeezing out not only those who fail to invest in the new technologies, but also those who fail to expand to some minimum size required to use the technology efficiently, and pay for the technology with the profits from a lower price per unit of food. Alongside all of the above, we have honey, which can only be described as being locked in a time-warp. Still produced in the time honored old-world tradition by quaint-looking fellows in funny costumes lifting one 60-lb super at a time onto their rickety trucks, and dumbfounded at the concept of anything more advanced than a stainless-steel extractor. Even a demo of a simple mechanized uncapper at a beekeeper meeting STILL attracts amazed attention. It is such a sad situation that US firms like Cowan and Maxant are STILL "technology leaders", even though their designs have remained essentially unchanged for decades. But the "technology" that drove down honey prices was not "our" technology, which is why beekeepers lost the upper hand, if they ever had it. The containerized shipping system suddenly allowed buyers of honey to play beekeepers against each other on a true global scale. Needless to say, if someone is willing to accept a lower standard of living than you, they will be able to sell all the honey they care to produce, while you may not be able to find a buyer at all. But beekeepers wear blinders on their veils, and it has always been thus. I forget which old beekeeping book it was, but I recall the story of a beekeeper who wanted to sell his honey to the local General Store, somewhere in the midwest USA: The merchant picked up the newspaper, and looked up the price of honey in Chicago (where the commodities markets were, and still are), and then took that price quote, and SUBTRACTED the price of shipping the honey from Chicago. That was the merchant's offer - take it or leave it. "Sell to me for cash today below the Chicago price, or ship your honey to Chicago, at your own expense, and take your chances that the price might go down." While the merchant might have to buy honey at the "Chicago" price, and also pay the shipping from Chicago to have honey on his shelf, he was a HONEY BUYER, so his primary goal was to secure a regular supply from a docile producer who was willing to accept such an "offer", or too lazy to consider any other alternative. He also knew that as long as he held firm in his outrageous demands, someone would shrug his shoulders and accept the offer as "fair". (Back then, there were more beekeepers, so the odds were in the merchant's favor.) It was a BLUFF! The beekeeper had (and still has) choices. Why do you think so many farmers of grain have their own silos? (If anyone remembers which book this was, please post the title. It was the personal recollections of a beekeeper who started keeping bees as a boy, and kept at it for his whole life. I have the book somewhere, or lent it to someone, I don't know.) > My interest in this - as a UK onlooker - stems from my > off-sung song that the true significance of honey is that > it is a medicinal product You might be able to get away with that in the UK. Here in the US, making such claims without solid proof is a great way to get yourself fined within an inch of your life by the US Food and Drug Administration, the Federal Trade Commission, and state-level consumer-protection agencies. (What a country! We have one federal agency making sure we eat good food, and have access to mood-altering substances of a chemical nature, ( http://www.fda.gov ) and another insuring that we have access to high-quality alcohol, strong tobacco, and semi-automatic firearms ( http://www.atf.gov ) > We - beekeepers - will only make progress on this when we start > to value the product ourselves and stop supplying it to be mucked > about and sold in competion with foriegn rubbish. Well, what happens when someone who shares your point of view, but not your flag, dismisses YOUR crop as "foreign rubbish"? What happens is that beekeeper has turned against beekeeper, when the problem clearly is NOT "too many beekeepers". This plays directly into the hands of the buyers of honey, whose only trick is to play one producer against the other, and see which one cracks under the pressure first. It also distracts beekeepers from the business at hand, and keeps them a disorganized rabble, squabbling among themselves so loudly than none of them even hear the money changing hands all around them. Now that technology has "leveled the playing field" planetwide for any food you care to name, and no one beekeeper has any technological "edge" over another, one is forced to resort to "marketing" that is slightly more sophisticated than childish name-calling. For most beekeepers, this means renting or buying a bottling line, and coming up with a brightly-colored label, a "brand name", and some kind of a "theme". Peter Bray has mastered all of this, which is why I can drive down the road a mere 40 miles, and buy a jar of HIS honey year-round. "Airborne Honey" is ALWAYS there on that shelf, right next to mine. He has turned the simple fact that he is in New Zealand into a "cachet of exclusivity", and has somehow convinced some number of people to buy HIS (not very remarkable) honey rather than mine. Good for him! My hat's off to you Peter! I stand in admiration of your grasp of marketing, and wish you would produce a series of books and video tapes to instruct the rest of us. It also means that beekeepers need to stop making claims that they can "taste the difference" between honey that was uncapped with a hot knife and extracted versus honey that has been squeezed through a ladies stocking, and start thinking long and hard about how to STOP USING LADIES STOCKINGS in the handling of FOOD!! :) While I'd love to test these claims with an actual blind taste test in front of a large number of beekeepers, the mere fact that someone BRAGS about a method of preparing honey for the consumer that apparently involves the use of ladies undergarments implies that, as a group, beekeepers are suffering from self-inflicted gunshot wounds to the foot every day. We have met the real enemy, and it is our own complete and utter lack of a clue that we dealing with food, and not just cute, interesting, and highly entertaining insects. > Would not organising a federation of smaller honey co-ops be less > work - and less frustrating - than campaigning for all the > legislative changes to labelling regulations that Bob was wondering > about? Uh, yeah... but I've been saying that for a while, and nobody ever makes any encouraging sounds that might prompt me to assign tasks to my staff, allocate resources, register as a co-op with the federal government and print up membership cards. Perhaps it is not my place to presume to start such a group. There are certainly better "leaders" out there. I would think the leaders of such an effort would be "too small" to qualify for "Sue Bee" membership, but large enough to be forced to pay a "National Honey Board" (or perhaps "Bored", given their promotional efforts) assessment, and watch their money be frittered away on "recipe cards" and other ineffective and cobweb-covered "marketing strategies" from the 1950s. I would also suggest that the focus of any such co-op would NOT be to handle the crop in any way, but to create a brand name and a logo that producers who met certain criteria for quality (regardless of size) could use on their label, and thereby leverage the national advertising done by the "co-op". (Similar to the highly effective "Florida Orange Juice" promotional work we have all seen.) Needless to say, there would also have to be a small amount of talking with elected officials, as the group would promote only domestic honey, and this would imply an interest in things like accurate county-of-origin labeling. I keep hoping that one of the existing US bee organizations would take this on, but this is a dream similar to hoping that the various US bee organizations would stop acting like childhood treehouse clubs ("No Girls Allowed!") viewing each other as "competitors" to be "opposed", rather than as friends who share many common agendas and goals. What's the difference between a US bee organization and a street gang? The street gang members show more loyalty to each other, and dress with more style. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:54:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Wax-based heat storage for buildings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote: Wax-based heat storage for buildings Everybody visiting an old church or temple has experienced the cooling effect of thick walls. On the other hand, heat waves particularly affect buildings constructed in lightweight materials. The walls cannot absorb much thermal energy, causing room temperatures to increase rapidly in summer. Researchers at the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE have found a way to pack the temperature-balancing effect of thick walls within a millimeters-thin layer of plaster. The specific latent heat of plastic-encapsulated wax balls can be most usefully exploited in the walls of lightweight-construction buildings. End quote. Details: http://www.globaltechnoscan.com/30thJuly-5thAug03/heat_storage.htm Dennis Law (aka Paul D. Law) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:08:27 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Favorite books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To avoid misleading anyone: My list -the first 6 books- comprises reference books as well as favourites but these are not for the beginner. There certainly are pitfalls when using earlier books for reference e.g. A Manual of Beekeeping, EB Wedmore,second edition revised, 1945 : Painting Hives paragraphs 769-771, highly toxic compositions of white lead, red lead etc. are recommended.Fortunately it would be virtually impossible to obtain such ingredients nowadays if anyone were to take this advice seriously; this does not invalidate much excellent advice on management , swarm control etc.,you have to be selective.Because it contains no reference to varroa it is not useless.I am SO glad I bought this book. Beekeeping is a craft and some aspects are timeless. I started beekeeping in 1952, later gave up for a period of 40years and started again 5 years ago. I suspect that many of the `modern techniques`are really wider, more systemmatic application of information known to experienced beekeepers of the last century. Anyone heard of Snelgrove? Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 02:38:05 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: contaminated chinese honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Expanding on Jim's comments: "I would also suggest that the focus of any such co-op would ...... could use on their label, and thereby leverage the national advertising done by the "co-op" The creation of a coop in not the only way of grouping production. I, at the present time live in "Parc Naturel de la Brenne" France. It is an area of diverse environments, esp. wet land and holds excellent natural floral resources. With the Parc authorities, I with several other beekeepers instigated a project that resulted in the production of a honey that was produced within the Parc, collected during a particular time frame and then given a prestigious label bearing the National Parc logo (after 2 years preparation). This honey sold for on average £8.00/kg (10 Euros) - and was always in short supply. The latter was the restricting problem - due to restraints of production area, expansion was very limited. But evenso, it showed what could be done with a few like minded individuals. The Parc authorities were willing, there to supply marketing, and generate legally binding prestigious labels. We supplied consistent quality, backed by independently tested analysis reports. The income generated from the few tonnes boosted income. Seeing as it was impossible to increase production - we instigated a network with restaurants within the park to buy the honey, use it traditional foods that were served to visitors to the region. They even created new recipes. We got the parc to design road signs to place outside our properties - again with the Parc logo well in evidence. There is now a project in view to send our honey to other Parcs in France - in return, we take theirs. This will allow an expansion in the types available for sale. A national network in the making. Those outside the Parc areas are spending their time bemoaning unfair treatment and favoritism. I disagree, it was the use of a "tool" that was present for us to pick up and exploit. Now what interests me (and I have already mentioned this in earlier mails) - how does a producer move from something like this highly successful venture selling a material that is distinct in character when the bulk of the production is a honey such as Canola, and the quantities involved are several tens of tonnes? This does not lend it self to large scale locally branded sales. Especially if the local population base is small. I do not expect somebody to supply the answer for me, after which I go and cash in - but I would dearly talk to any person about possibilities - even if it was considered a no go situation at the end. Investigation opens up avenues that were not viewed as existing previously. Hence Co-ops. But they have the nasty habit of forgetting whom they are working for, or are unable to work efficiently for their members. Beekeepers also tend to join a co-op. as an easy option to get rid of production. Others presented with this situation - turn to the Broker - and relieves himself of the problem. Resulting in beekeepers being often their own best enemy. This is not a blanket criticism or condemnation, just that for some, I am sure they could do better than just opting for the easy way out. I do think that several individuals getting together, then linking up with others elsewhere (wherever) can do themselves a great service in the sales/ marketing department. What is an advantage to the beekeeper is that he is starting out with a relatively low priced material, one that should be converted into a reasonably priced finished product. Due to remaining at the production end (through the "love shown to the bees"), he misses out on the harvest made by the middle organisations. I am not saying that all beekeepers should / can abandon the bees totally, but where possible or wished for should get organised. This instead of remaining totally independent. They would then capture some of the lost cash. All simplistically put - but where there is a mind, there is a way! Regards, Peter PS: as ever "He" should be read as either "He" or "She" - as appropriate! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:07:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: Has the colony been given sugar feeds which are apparently common practice in USA? In Missouri we have just had the dryest July in over a hundred years of record keeping. Allmost all the honey plants have burned up. We are running 24/7 trying ot get honey supers off so we can feed syrup. Why? Because honey sells for around $!.50 a pound and syrup costs around .20 a pound. Right now the bees have moved most of the bottom honey super down into the brood nest and will continue to do so until all the supers are empty (in areas of extreme drought such as ours). Robin said: If so, the larvae will have been fed a deficient diet, as syrup has the same sugar content as nectar but includes none of the vital traces of minerals, vitamins and medicinal substances possibly expressed by plants in their nectar - 50% of modern drugs are extracted or derived from plants. Robin is of course entitled to his opinion but research from all parts of the world have never been able to prove bees fed fructose do not do as well as bees fed honey. In fact most research says the bees winter better on fructose. I will say that no pollen substitute ever made will replace natural pollen for bees in quality. Robin said: A deficient diet may have produced these sickly bees - Poor beekeeping practices produced these bees in my opinion! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. McBride" Subject: Re: Coumafos removal patent I must agree with Mr. Fischer, this is quite an obvious and simple technique, and most of us have done similiar experiments in high school chemistry. The question is if anyone has independently tested and verified the patent claims to determine their validity? Given the number of Bee-L members currently in school at, or employed by various universities and/or private laboratories, I am hoping they might enlighten us as to their results with this process in regards coumafos removal from beeswax. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:06:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spirited defence of USA beekeeping from Bob, as expected! Of course starving bees must be fed - but if they are rearing brood - especially those longer living winter bees - then feeding sugar rather than honey will risk breeding weak deficient bodies. The fructose large beekeepers buy in drums is probably better than the dry sucose small beekeepers buy at the grocery, but it is still refined and contains only carbohydrate. That is an energy food only. If bees can collect pollen, the nurse beees will be able to secrete proper brood food - but if bees are starving in the drought, are there any pollen sources? And larvae are fed part brrod food and part nectar/honey. I realise syrup costs less than feeding back honey - but do beekeepers follow the logic right thru? Feeding their own children sugar water will keep them alive , although thin, pasty and with perpetually dripping noses as their immune systems will not fully develop. Greed is a bad basis for designing management systems , whether for companies, families or bees. But I will always bow to research over intuitive feelings and anecdotes. Artificial honey made from autumn sugar feeds is undoubtedly better for winteing, as all the bees need then is fuel to maintain warmth and sugar honey leaves no residues (as it has no body) needing to be voided - but winter is when there is no brood being reared. However if too much honey has been stripped out and replaced only with sugar honey, I really do doubt if the vital replacement bees reared in Jan-March will be strong, long-lived and healthy. If they are, it implies that the health-giving properies of honey that are so appreciated by humans are of no consequence to bees and are in plants purely as an un-needed by-product - nature rarely seems to work like that. Has research really been aimed at that point? It was you yourself , Bob, who recently wondered why beekeepers in the USA today have such dificulty in keeping their bees alive. I am trying to pinpoint possible causes. Generalised comments such as 'poor beekeeping practices' do not move us forward. What would u put in the dock? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 09:01:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Robin wrote "Greed is a bad basis for designing management systems , whether for companies, families or bees." Greed is a religious concept. Bees and an individual lettuce plant live about the same length of time. If I remove the leaves of a lettuce plant, I weaken the plant, and shorten it's lifetime, make is less able to defend itself against disease, etc.. Is this sinful? Is it immoral? Funny how often the same people advocate burning hives with Foul Brood who believe it's unethical to feed bees sugar. I personally don't feed my bees sugar, but I think I will start because there's no rain here except in the winter, and it's only early in the year that I get honey, so this coming season I plan to build up my hives very strong before the eucalyptus in late January. I do not think my Pastor will mind much. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 09:58:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > I realize syrup costs less than feeding back honey - but do beekeepers > follow the logic right thru? Feeding their own children sugar water will > keep them alive , although thin, pasty and with perpetually dripping noses > as their immune systems will not fully develop. Greed is a bad basis for > designing management systems , whether for companies, families or bees. > But I will always bow to research over intuitive feelings and anecdotes. The whole post is a strawman. It implies and either/or situation when that does not exist in nature. There is no way, other than lab conditions (or as the example noted, with your own children), that bees will have a diet that is exclusively sugar syrup. Even a drought breaks eventually and they will collect whatever is available. It is profoundly stupid not to feed syrup in a drought. If you do not you will lose your bees. And pulling supers and then feeding syrup is economically right and reasonable. I could argue that feeding bees nothing but pollen and water, a combination that people can live on, is the healthy way to go, but it is not. Nor is pure sugar syrup. Nor are all kinds of honey (some will kill a colony!). (But feed a child Cheerios for most of their youth and they will survive quite well. So maybe we should feed our bees Cheerios.) Christine Gray wrote more: "It was you yourself , Bob, who recently wondered why beekeepers in the USA today have such difficulty in keeping their bees alive. I am trying to pinpoint possible causes. Generalised comments such as 'poor beekeeping practices' do not move us forward. What would u put in the dock?" I was on the Irish Beekeepers list for quite some time. By in large, the honey yields in GB were about what I have seen in the US with what George Imire likes to call BeeHavers (and what I experienced when I started keeping bees- until I listened to George). So the US has no exclusive right to poor beekeeping. Bob is absolutely right when he pinpoints 'poor beekeeping practices' as the problem. To dismiss it out of hand and want to place something else in the dock, is an attempt to avoid the issue. (Plus, if I recall, the issue was queens, not beekeeping in general.) Beekeepers are fairly much the same no matter where you go. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:44:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >Spirited defense of USA beekeeping from Bob, as expected! >Of course starving bees must be fed - but if they are rearing brood - >especially those longer living winter bees - then feeding sugar rather than >honey will risk breeding weak deficient bodies. > Not if there is pollen around, and if there is not, all the honey in China will not help. The bees could not possible metabolize away enough of the sugar in honey to effectively mine out enough protein or fat to raise kids. The energetics involved in using honey as anything other than a source of calories makes this impractical. Bees use it as a source of energy, period. The respiratory quotient (RQ) for honey use is darn close to 1 - meaning that it is simply and efficiently converted to carbon dioxide, and the ATP siphoned off. >The fructose large beekeepers buy in drums is probably better than the dry >sucrose small beekeepers buy at the grocery, but it is still refined and >contains only carbohydrate. That is an energy food only. > Just like honey. Bees store honey for energy and pollen for tissue growth. The two are decidedly separate in the hive - and with good reason. > If bees can >collect >pollen, the nurse beees will be able to secrete proper brood food - but if >bees >are starving in the drought, are there any pollen sources? > Nope, and in that instance the bees would only be keeping what adults they have alive. There would be no protein for de-novo tissue production, which in a bee colony means kids. Having said that, there is not enough protein in honey to allow for brood rearing either, so . . . . . you can see where that leads. > And larvae are >fed part brood food and part nectar/honey. > Production of brood food is dependent on pollen intake. >I realise syrup costs less than feeding back honey - but do beekeepers >follow the logic right thru? Feeding their own children sugar water will >keep them alive , although thin, pasty and with perpetually dripping noses >as their immune systems will not fully develop. > Two points. A) it will not keep them alive, at least for any real length of time, and they won't have to worry about snotty noses, cause that will be the least of their problems. So put down that rock candy kids! B) Think feeding honey would change the outcome? Think again. > Greed is a bad basis for >designing management systems , whether for companies, families or bees. >But I will always bow to research over intuitive feelings and anecdotes. > No one is suggesting that greed is the way to go. Research? Its out there. >Artificial honey made from autumn sugar feeds is undoubtedly better for >winteing, as all the bees need then is fuel to maintain warmth and sugar >honey leaves no residues (as it has no body) needing to be voided - but >winter is when there is no brood being reared. > Not in my hives. We have brood the whole time through. > However if too much honey >has been stripped out and replaced only with sugar honey, I really do doubt >if the vital replacement bees reared in Jan-March will be strong, long-lived >and healthy. > Why - are your colonies pollen deficient? The thing that builds a strong bee is protein and fat. The energy to drive the process can be from syrup or honey, makes no difference. In the end ATP is ATP, or is someone point to tell me that the ATP derived from honey has better harmonics than the ATP from Dixie Crystals?. Can you name a necessary substance (not sugar), found in honey, but not syrup, that is not also found in far more massive quantities in pollen? > If they are, it implies that the health-giving properies of >honey that are so appreciated by humans are of no consequence to bees and >are in plants purely as an un-needed by-product - nature rarely seems to >work >like that. > Maybe the "health-giving" properties of honey are simply not that big a deal for anyone, and are the result of overplaying anecdote and wishful thinking, or clever marketing. Maybe honey is simply a wonderful, tasty, beautiful, supersaturated solution of sugar and not some mythical life-giving elixir. Can't it simply be appreciated for what it is? > Has research really been aimed at that point? >It was you yourself , Bob, who recently wondered why beekeepers in the USA >today have such dificulty in keeping their bees alive. > Have we not heard of considerable losses in many parts of Europe? Keith "don't confuse the presence of a molecule of two of something with the necessity of its presence, in the end it may simply be tolerated and not required" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Robin said, of "sugar syrup", and other feeds other than honey: > If so, the larvae will have been fed a deficient diet, as syrup has the > same sugar content as nectar but includes none of the vital traces of > minerals, vitamins and medicinal substances possibly expressed by plants in > their nectar... In what context are these "traces" described as "vital"? Are we to read this as "vital to the physical health of bees", or "vital" as in having a "vital mystical life-force" as used in the context of Reiki, Qigong, chakra tuning, tantric yoga, aromatherapy, herbalism, acupuncture, or homeopathic "healing" without benefit of an actual medical degree as a homeopathic doctor? Also, if the substances at issue are "possibly expressed by plants", then is it just as possible that they are NOT expressed by plants? I want to forward your message along to the folks at the Institute of Wellness and Holistic Apiary Therapy ( http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/rpt2/ ) in hopes of getting a summary of the research done to date in this area, but I can't until I understand "vital". > 50% of modern drugs are extracted or derived from plants. Yes, but these drugs have no known value for insects. These are drugs for mammals. Given the tiny trace amounts of minerals found in honey, and the obvious fact that honey is highly-concentrated nectar, I'm confused as to how such miniscule components of nectar (rough estimate, take the amounts found in honey and divide by at least one order of magnitude) could be mission-critical to the health of bees. I do know that larvae have been raised on all sorts of diets under controlled lab conditions, and subjected to post-mortem chemical analysis many times, each time finding no discernable difference between sugar-water, HFCS, and nectar. (Most often, deficiencies show up as enzymes that are out-of-wack, but this is not my area of specialization, so there may be other tests). Bottom line, Bob certainly WISHES his bees had access to nectar, but the drought/dearth FORCES him to feed his bees right now. I also WISH my bees had better flight conditions, but we are getting all the rain to which Bob was entitled, and I am feeding 100% of my observation hives at honey retailers, as they are very low on stores. Production hives are clearly making much smaller crops this year, but they are not yet "in danger". The rains have created a bumper crop of clover, and may provide a rally in the late innings of summer. The wet conditions have been so bad here in VA USA that first hay cut was a complete disaster for those of us who cut hay intended for horses. (Cows can handle less than "dry" hay, and/or slightly "fermented" hay, but horses can't.) Anyone want some square bales of hay fit only for cows? I thought not. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees In-Reply-To: <006601c3585e$d08d5800$e988bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Aug 2003 at 18:23, Christine Gray wrote: > Has the colony been given sugar feeds which are apparently > common practice in USA? If so, the larvae will have been fed a > deficient > diet Eyes glazed and continuing to chant the mantra, despite hundreds of accumulated years of observations by many of the best beekeepers on this list, that just exactly the opposite is true, Christine expects to get a following of true believers on the list. Wonder how folks can get a strange idea stuck, no matter what. Every year I kept bees, I increased in my estimation of the value of feeding sugar at the right time. Well fed bees are happy and healthy bees. I can't help but think of the old beekeeper who thought that drones were "bad," so he sat by his hives though the day and stabbed the drones with toothpicks as fast as he could. It is an important lesson for new users of the Internet to consider all posted ideas tentative, until one has watched to see which posters regularly know of which they speak, and which posters determinedly hold to a belief despite all evidence to the contra ry. Anyway I wish to add my voice in protest - that I do not find this quote to be true at all. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com (still down, but expected back up soon -- anyone who wants to do a study of web hosting ripoffs, run a Google search for Feature Price and Atlantic Net.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Dave said: > It is an important lesson for new users of the Internet to > consider all posted ideas tentative... I'd go much further, and say that one should be very suspicious of everything one reads on the internet, including warnings to be suspicious about what one reads on the internet! :) > Anyway I wish to add my voice in protest - that I do not > find this quote to be true at all. Here's a "true" quote that popped into my head when I was down at the barn. One of the barn cats is named "Ovid", and he "greeted" me by snaking around my ankles, a quote from the real Ovid surfaced from the dim memories of long-forgotten reading assignments: "How little you know about the age you live in if you fancy that honey is sweeter than cash in hand". This is not some bogus out-of-context quote at all. As I remember, the discussion was of "offerings", and Ovid's friend was pointing out the "realities of modern life", circa 350 BC. Some things never change. :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:33:20 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jan tempelman Organization: home sweet home Subject: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can some help overthere???? -------------- name = KASEY, ST. ALBERT, AB, CANADA e-adres = kasey1@shaw.ca com: = Hello Peter! NAME THIS CRITTER...SVP...(see below) ARE THEY HARMLESS? ARE THEY BENEFICIAL POLLINATORS? MY HUSBAND HAS AN ALLERGY TO BEE/WASP STINGS. WE WANT OUR DECK TO BE A SAFE PLACE. CAN THE BEES/WASPS BE MOVED SAFELY? ARE THEY PREPARING A NEW HOME? They are in nest five feet above our backyard deck in a flowering vine which is attached to a trellis that is bolted to the house. Could you advise us about our unusual new insects,please.They appear to be in the wasp not bee "family". They have 3 sections, are all black with white rings on their tiny bums and white crescents near their eyes. Their wings fold up into long, very thin black "gossamer" membranes overlapping? (Hmmm...Did I see a pair on each side???). The Hornet type nest is the size of a volleyball and its entrance is the size of a nickle. While I watch the nest,(arms length away) they ignore me and fly in and out. But it seems like there are only about 5 of them. One looks a little different,larger a queen ? Once one of them came out of the nest and began drumming his bottom on the nest,while he clung onto the nest.(I don't remember if it was his wings that were keeping him in that position but maybe he was just adding more siding to his house.Immediately,three "wasps" flew into the nest at once from the garden, as if they had been called to arms. Interesting behaviour. Maybe the behaviour helps to I.D. the critters. Hope you can help us. Thanks very much for your ! time!!! Kasey & Lou ------------ -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jan Jan Tempelman Annie Romein-Verschoorpad 2-4 NL 4103 VE Culemborg tel.:0345-524433 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jan Jan Tempelman Annie Romein-Verschoorpad 2-4 NL 4103 VE Culemborg tel.:0345-524433 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:26:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: post in europ Comments: To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Comments: cc: kasey1@shaw.ca In-Reply-To: <3F2E0C40.4070609@xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 4 Aug 2003 at 9:33, jan tempelman wrote on the Bee List: Fron kasey1@shaw.ca > The Hornet type > nest is the size of a volleyball and its entrance is the size of a > nickle. The only wasps that builds a nest of that size are the European hornet, Vespa crabo, and the similar American hornet. Hornets are protected by law in many parts of Europe, as they are highly beneficial in control of pest insects (they will keep your garden clean of worms), and they are threatened by human practices. You will have to check on your laws in your vicinity. But I would suggest living with them anyway. They will protect their nest (which only lasts until the next hard freeze, but are not aggressive away from their home. We had a nest of American hornets by our back door a couple years ago. They never bothered us, until the day I was loading the car for a trip and slammed the door hard. A number came out to attack that time, and I had to stay in for an hour, until they calmed down. So remember that strong vibrations, also quick movements can make them think there is a threat to their home. We left them alone, and they died out in the fall. I wish they would come back. We have photos of them on the Pollination Home Page, which unfortunately is still down and may be for a few more days. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: A "mirror" of all but the photo gallery is now operative at http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:34:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: post in europ addendum Comments: To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Comments: cc: kasey1@shaw.ca In-Reply-To: <3F2E0C40.4070609@xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Addendum: you can see photos of Vespa crabo, the European hornet at: http://sef.nu/landskap/fotomapp/f_crabro.htm Dave Green :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:57:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Re: post in Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave's post about American hornets reminded me of a hornet nest under the eve of our house when I lived in SC back in the 70's. Our parents were as fascinated by it as we kids were. (or maybe their fascination rubbed off on us) The hornets started the nest right between a double floodlight under the soffet. We watched it grow and grow throughout the summer until it completely encompassed both floodlights. Whenever we vacuumed upstairs in that room the hornets would come out in droves and beat against the windows trying to get at us. You could literally see the venom dripping down the window. Eventually, my dad decided the nest must come down. He bought some carbontetrachloride and gassed them with a garbage bag over the nest. Quite an undertaking . I frequently see bald-faced hornets here in KY. They cruise around the porch and I've seen them on my garden shed door getting wood for their nests. It's nice knowing they are around to control the caterpillars the birds don't get. Thanks for letting me reminisce. Denise Luna Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: They will protect their nest (which only lasts until the next hard freeze, Like honeybees these hornets aggressive behavior can vary from nest to nest so be careful. If your husband is in danger of anaphylaxis from stings I would get the nest removed before the nest gets larger. I removed a nest from inside a basement years ago. They at times stung right through my beesuit and always went for the face first. Not trying to terrify but only give first hand knowledge from experience. I have dealt with hornets several times. My method: I use automotive starting spray to knock down and kill the hornets as they attack. Stand in front of the nest and slowly move the nest and kill as they fly at you. Method which I have done before which I enjoy (if successful) because I love the expression on the homeowners face when I hand the sack to the homeowner and say do not open with care. I have never had a homeowner take the trash sack! Leave sealed in direct sunlight for a time and all the hornets should be dead. Protected or not I believe when people realize your husband is at risk they will allow removal of the nest. At least they would in the U.S.. Old hornet nests bring big bucks at antique malls in the U.S. but perhaps not a good idea to sell the old nest without permission which might be given with the authorization to remove in Europe. If you leave alone and wait for fall I would advise your husband to keep an epiPen ( epinephrine)close by when on the deck One hornet can sting you many times (experience talking). Although I agree with Dave about leaving the hornets nest if possible I would not if in a place in which these guys can cause trouble. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: post in europ addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In one hornet nest removal I learned the meaning of a saying I had heard all my life: "Meaner than a nest of hornets!" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:42:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: post in europ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this discussion about hornet removal jogged my memory and reminded me of an experience I had in Ohio. I went out one evening with a fellow who removed bald faced hornet nests as a job for supplementary income and watched him in action. He did it with no protection whatsoever, and he charged $50 a removal, and he did not kill any hornets. Here is the technique: He had a tank of carbon dioxide gas under pressure, and he had a tube/hose attached to the tank. He would go at dusk, turn on the tank and put the end of the hose into the entrance of the nest until it knocked out (anesthetized) the hornets (I think he also held a rag or something around the tube so all the gas would go into the nest. He would then clip off or remove the nest and put it in a double plastic garbage bag with the end knotted and then place it in the back of his covered (with a camper shell) truck bed. We got six or 8 that night. Of course, in a short time the hornets would wake up and come out in the bag and be very angry. It made me nervous. There was no rear window in the truck. It only took him 5 or 10 minutes to remove a nest. He told me that once when the people saw how easy it was and how little time it took to do, they said they were not going to pay him. He told them that he would just put it back, then. They changed their mind. He was licensed and bonded and had made an investment in training and equipment that was quite substantial. By the way, he only got stung on the chin 7 or 8 times that evening, but said he was used to it and it didn't bother him. I stood back as I watched (full of adrenalin). He said that he had a fantasy that some day he wanted to walk into a biker's bar with a couple of those bags in his hands and insult some bikers and then swing the bags over hard and break them open on the bar. He could take the stings without them bothering him, but nobody else would be able to. What he did with them afterwards was to take them home with him and put them in the trees in his yard. He had two trees that he called his "death trees" that each had about 10 or 15 or more hornet nests in them. Better than a watch dog, one on either side of the house. He had almost run out of places to put them, the trees were so full or hornet nests. When we got back to his house, he had to "gas" them with CO2 again (through the neck of the bag) to knock them out before he removed a nest and placed it in the tree (a conifer with horizontally spreading branches, if I recall correctly. It looked like a Christmas tree with large gray paper ornaments). He even had one nest that he'd made into a "double-decker" by placing one right on top of the other, and then the hornets built them together. There was an upper and a lower entrance. After he put a nest in the tree, he would pick up the loose hornets with his fingers and poke them into the hole in the nest so they wouldn't be lost. He hated the thought of killing any of them. If this description doesn't give you some ideas about how to solve the problem without killing them, then you don't have much imagination IMHO. It was quite an exciting evening for me, but I don't think I would like to do it for a living. Best wishes for a successful outcome. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:48:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: post in europ In-Reply-To: <000f01c35a96$74cd1f20$80ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 4 Aug 2003 at 9:41, Bob Harrison wrote: > I use automotive starting spray to knock down and kill the hornets as > they > attack. I think that is a faulty technique. I have (reluctantly) exterminated several hornet nests and never been stung or even investigated while doing one (though I've been inadvertantly stung by hornets when I did not know the nest was there). The aerosol wasp and hornet sprays which you purchase at the hardware, and I believe, auto starting fluid would be the same, simply infuriate the hornets, because the odor announces to the whole colony that they are under attack. Also I have seen them knocked down and revive, only to attack with more deperation. I would NEVER use either. I use warm water with several good squirts of dish detergent in it. I use a hand sprayer (like the one cleansing solutions come in) and spray the hornets as they come and go. If you hit them squarely, they are dead, and they will not revive to come after you. Furthermore the nest is not warned of your presence. I have stood for an hour with my face 3 feet from the nest entrance without a single hornet investigating me, while I eliminate them one by one. Another important thing is to stand still while doing this. Movement attracts their attention. I wear a thin tulle veil for maximum visibility and a long sleeve Dicky shirt. Neither have been tested, though I'm sure the hornets could go thru the shirt if they wanted. Once again I urge people to let them alone, rather than exterminate them. Once you know the nest is there, give them a little distance, avoid making heavy vibrations, or swatting them when they are just looking around. And yes, anyone who has an allergy should carry an epi-pen, *whether or not* one is aware of any nest. I've been stung while driving down the road, working on a tractor, digging post holes, chainsawing hollow logs for firewood, and just walking on the lawn and stepping on a yellow jacket nest hole. Better yet, see a competent allergist and take the series of treatments to get rid of the allergy. Why live in fear all the time? Unfortunately fear can breed panic, which is one's worst enemy in dealing with stinging insects. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info (mirror site without gallery) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:35:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe a silly question, but do bees just gather nectar and pollen from flowers? Or, do they help made the flowers larger, healthier, stronger in general? This person also wants to know if they will help her in having more flowers. Thanks, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I use automotive starting spray to knock down and kill the hornets as > they > attack. I think that is a faulty technique. Have you ever tried the starting spray? Auto starting fluid is far superior to any spray on the market to spray insects in my opinion. All my trucks and loaders have got a can handy for starting or pests. I discovered the starting fluid method quite by accident. The best way to rid my farm of the countless wasp nests. Always handy , knocks out with the ether and kills on contact. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:32:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: > I use warm water with several good squirts of dish detergent in it. > I use a hand sprayer (like the one cleansing solutions come in) and > spray the hornets as they come and go. If you hit them squarely, > they are dead, and they will not revive to come after you. > Furthermore the nest is not warned of your presence. I have stood > for an hour with my face 3 feet from the nest entrance without a > single hornet investigating me, while I eliminate them one by one. Second Dave's method. I was called to remove a bald faced hornet nest right by the families front door. It was in a shrub and impossible to get out. So I used the soapy water technique and was able to remove the majority of them before I cut away the nest. As most on this list know, the same method works on yellow jackets (and bees). I have many wasp and hornet nests around my yard and welcome them. Keep the other pests that bother my vegetable garden in check. I have yet to be stung by any of them but have been by both my bees and yellow jackets. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:29:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the very few occasions I've felt it necessary to eliminate yellow jacket or hornet nests, I've used a common garden sprayer with pyrethrins/rotenone (mixed at full strength). Set the nozzle to a medium stream, pump it well, and spray right into the entrance in the early morning before flight (a good sprayer will emit a stream ten feet or more). The overwhelming amount of pyrethrins injected into the nest asures that none fly out while spraying is in progress. The few that fly out afterward are dead in seconds. I prefer pyrethrins/rotenone over synthetics because of their natural origins (based on chrysanthamum extract, unless synthetic pyrethroids/and cube resins), and the fact that they degrade fairly quickly - usually within 24-48 hrs. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:54:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If you must get rid of a hornets nest try this for immediate results 1-after dark put the nest in a garbage bag and tape the top shut, cut the nest down and inject a solvent, not one that melts the bag OR 2- get a syringe with at least 30 ml (1 fl ounce) of ethyl acetate. Again, after dark, with indirect light from a flashlight, gently tape the entrance hole with a large piece of pre-prepared masking tape. Then inject the ethyl acetate into the nest at the top . The critters will be dead by morning., bag and remove I used to make extra money in college by dong this. Dan Veilleux In the mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: post in europ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: > I prefer pyrethrins/rotenone over synthetics because of their natural > origins (based on chrysanthamum extract, unless synthetic pyrethroids/and > cube resins), and the fact that they degrade fairly quickly - usually within > 24-48 hrs. I appreciate Todd's desire not to affect the environment, but these chemicals are not benign. I once used them for the same reason since I wanted to stay organic, but was told by a scientist employed by an Organic group that he would rather use some off the shelf chemical sprays because they are much more benign. If you read the label you will find they are very strong and very dangerous to aquatic life. Chemicals are chemicals be they made by nature or man. Detergent is a mand made chemical but I can spray myself with it and not suffer the ill effects that rotenone would produce. In fact, if you read the label, you should wash yourself off with soap (the man made chemical) and water since rotenone is harmful to humans. Many natural chemicals are bad for you. Arsenic is natural and was once used as an insecticide. It does take longer, spraying with soapy water, but since I love computer games, it has the same effect and I am actually accomplishing something, shooting all those bad guys out of the sky. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: post in europ In-Reply-To: <001101c35b44$cfb8bbc0$d7b472d8@SOD> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Be careful using rotenone. It is no longer considered an acceptable "organic" pesticide, due to it's link to Parkinson like symptoms (that do manifest many years later). Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Bees and flowers Sure is a common misconception on the surface, there is some truth to it. More seed, more flowers, especially the one's farmers hate. I just hope none of the avocado and apple farmers on who's land I keep my bees have made a correlation between the amount of thistle that dramatically increase every year and my bees :-) Also, if one considers the flower and fruit one thing, which it is in a way, then the answer is clearly yes in some plants. A lady who has a small garden for income was grinning hugely when I saw her Saturday at the Farmer's Market. I moved some hives up to her place a few months ago, and she had a big basket of remarkably thick and straight cucumbers, and she sure saw the correlation. So, I would explain it to her in terms of more seed for next year, but only on some kinds of flowers, and bigger and better fruit on some veggies and plants. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Bees and flowers In-Reply-To: <97.3c669518.2c5fd74a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > flowers? Or, do they help made the flowers larger, healthier, > stronger in general? > This person also wants to know if they will help her in having > more flowers. I would imagine they "help" have fewer flowers in plants that stop producing flowers as they are pollinated and have no effect on other flowers (other than to increase next year's numbers due to reseeding). They do assist with increasing the size, quantity and quality of fruits and vegetables that they pollinate. Our apples are easily double the old size, despite many alternate pollinators that were previously available (although pruning also has had some effect) and are all usually covered with fruit (requiring thinning on tame trees and resulting in breakage in wild pears that are not managed). A very old peach that never fruited the ten years before now is full each year (although the wildlife still gets nearly 100% of its fruit). Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:43:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Marty Hardison Beekeeping workshop, Aurora, CO 9/13/2002 Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030805074542.02bbecb0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marty Hardison will be conducting a beekeeping workshop next month. Marty has been successfully keeping topbar hives for over 20 years. Catch this class if you can. Date: September 13th, 2003 at 9 am Location: DeLaney Community Farm, Aurora, CO The Beekeeping Workshop will let you view first-hand the world of bees and demonstrate the progression from hive to honey. Join us for this exciting workshop at DeLaney Farm. Admission/Fees: $10, shareholders exempt Type of Event: Workshop For Further Information Contact: Beth Kivett Denver Urban Gardens Mailing Address: 3377 Blake St. Unit 113 Denver CO 80205 Email: dirt@dug.org Phone: 303.292.9900 Fax: 303.292.9911 Web Page URL: http://www.dug.org :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:52:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To answer Beekeeperc's question as set, assuming no prior knowledge : bees gather nectar and pollen for their own food, YES, and the plant invests energy in producing nectar solely in order to attract insects to visit the flower, so it is freely on offer BUT the plant is not stupid and has a cunning plan. Plants are rooted in the earth (and so cannot move about) BUT reproduction requires the admixing of the female and male elements from different flowers. Some plants use the wind, but they have to produce enormous quanties of very light pollen grains as where the pollen will be carried to is entirely random and the chance any grain will hit the female element in a flower on another plant of the same species is extremely low - a grain of spruce pollen weighs 1/500,000 gm (1gm <1/16 oz). SO another group of plants have chosen to develop a mutually beneficial relationship with insects - they offer the insect free food BUT in a way that will result in some pollen being carried directly to the flower on another plant of the same species - a much more targetted approach. So these plants produce tiny quantities of nectar (but need produce far fewer pollen grains), and position the nectaries so that an insect cannot avoid brushing against the pollen-producing parts of the flower when sucking up the nectar. The pollen grains are sticky so they stick to the insect's body hair. Honeybees brush up most of the pollen and pack it for transport as small balls (of no further use to the flower) but some remains that gets carried into the next flower the bee visits - the nectar in each flower is so little that a bee may visit thousands before it has a full load. Insect-carried pollen grains can be larger and heavier than wind-blown pollen (up to 1/14,000 gm) and so more effective - larger barbs for more efficient locking on, for example. So do bees make flowers larger, healthier, stronger? - no. The flowers get knocked about if anything - some heavy wild bees vibrate their bodies when settled in say a rose flower, to shake the pollen onto their bodies. Once pollinated, the petals will die and energy goes into developing the seed or fruit - unpollinated blossoms last longer. But there will be more seeds and better developed fruit if a flower has been fully pollinated - some plants produce separate single seeds from florets, more of which will get pollinated so more seeds. Fruit such as apples have segments each with seeds - many visits by bees to the sasme flower are needed if all segments of the fruit are to develop and the apple be perfectly round. Whether more seeds will result in more (wild) flowers depends on how u look after the soil. Wild flowers usually need poor soil - top growth should be removed when flowering is over, and the soil lightly raked to break the top pan and create crevices into which seeds can fall. There are many books on wild gardening - I find Johnathan Andrews, Crating a Wild Flower Garden, 1986 (156 pages) one of the clearest - it re-uses the illustrations from Edith Holden, The Country Diary of an Edwardian Lady, 1906 - facsimile reprint 1977 (178 pages) - itself a delight. Honeybees are not the only pollinators however. A study in 1929 found as many wild bees as honeybees visited Cherries, but six times as many honeybees than wild bees visited apples. Some plants such as evening primrose aim to attract moths. Of course there were far more wild bees 80 years ago, before commercial farming damaged the environment so much. Some wild bees are said to far more effective pollinators than honeybees, for example osmia rufa, which are now commercially available in UK as alternative pollinators for orchards. These bees live only a few weeks when the fruit is out and collect pollen in great quanties rather than nectar as they lay eggs on balls of pollen and die, leaving the larvae to fend for themselves until they emerge next spring - they therefore do not have to be kept alive with artificial feeds after the honey flow. Interesting specialised books are: Herbert Mace, Bees Flowers and Fruit, 1949 (178 pages) and Sir John Lubbock, British Wild Flowers in Relation to Insects, 1875 (179 pages - full of drawings of different flower forms) Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:20:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phillip Dedlow Subject: Re: post in europ Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Regarding removing wasp nests: I successfully removed a yellowjacket nest using a non chemical technique described in a book on I.P.M. (Integrated Pest Management). The book said that "a lightweight portable vacuum with a removable bag that can be stuffed closed with cotton or a rag while the machine is running is essential". They also recommended bee suits and 2 people: one to dig out the nest while the other vacuums. I removed an 8 inch nest hanging from a tree by holding the vacuum tube near the entrance and sucking them in one by one as they exited the nest. I would bump the nest with the tube until they all were sucked up. Being accustomed to 10 of thousands of bees, I hadn't realized that there are not that many wasps in a nest. I then opened the still running vac, stopped up the bag and put it in the freezer overnight. It was surprisingly easy and effective. I had planned on preserving the lovely nest, but without the wasps in it, it was torn apart by racoons overnight and infested with ants and other oppurtunistic bugs (after the larve I suppose). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: unknown bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the last couple of days I have been sitting on my deck watching a = considerable number of bees working the spicebush at the back of my = yard, feeling contented as the breeze brought the sweet scent of its = flowers to me. But today I inspected up close and found they were not my = bees at all. They aren't even honey bees! They are somewhat larger and = huskier than honey bees Yet they're smaller than carpenter bees with a = black abdomen. and a yellow thorax with a bald black spot in the middle. = Can anyone I.D.these interlopers? John Howe 18 Fort Greene Place Brooklyn, NY 11217 718-858-6891 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:41:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My posts have been concerned with identifying possible causes for a colony to become sick with virus (surely a major issue?) but the core group of professional beekeepers on this list has concentrated on crushing the observation that artificial honey (made by feeding refined sugar or fructose syrup) is a deficient food for honeybees compared with their natural food - honey-- and on a passing reference to greed being a poor motive for action. Such unbalanced response is curious - 'methinks the lady doth protest too much' - and we can consider a possible reason in a moment. First, greed is defined as ' a rapacious desire for more than one needs or deserves, of food, wealth or power'. It has been listed as one of the seven deadly sins, but with all respect to the religious, avoidance of greed is surely just a common-sense rule for living in social groups, and we do not need to invoke the Great Beekeeper. And note it is by definition a relative term. A professional beekeeper who needs to feed his family may justly take more from his bees than a hobby beekeeper living comfortably on a secure pension. But there will always be a limit - and the possibility of greed is always with us. Some beekeepers remove honey the bees would otherwise eat themselves, and substitute sugar syrup, in order to increase their income. Reasearch has shown (I believe) that artificial honey made from sugar syrup is actually beneficial to bees in the quiescent period when they cannot fly to void and no brood is being reared. So let's leave that feed aside. If bees are starving in summer then obviously they must be fed or they will die. I happen to believe it is bad beekeeping to actually drive bees to starvation by taking too much of the spring crop, but I live on a pension and professional beekeepers will act as they need to. Professional however claim that research has shown that sugar feeding in no way disadvantages bees and that any other opinion is necessarily wrong. The claim is that anything left out of syrup that is in honey is amply available in pollen, so there is no overall deficiency. Keith Benson has raised the possibility that honey may be 'nothing more than a wonderful tasty beautiful supersaturated solution of sugar and not some mythical life-giving elixir' [for humans], and that it can be simply appreciated for what it is. He cuts to the point with 'don't confuse the presence of a molecule or two of something with the necessity of its presence, in the end it may simply be tolerated and not required'. Despite requests , no references to research on sugar feeding have been posted on Bee-L. Bees consume honey at 3 times - with brood food and pollen when growing as larvae, when completing their development on emergence (worker bees add 93% to the nitrogen in their heads within 5 days of emergence, 76% in the abdomen and 37% in the thorax - due to eating pollen but they must take honey for liquid as well) , and as adult bees before leaving to forage. So the research must be thorough if it is to rule out the possibility that something in honey is needed before bees can make full use of pollen. Colonies fed sugar need to be compared on amount of brood raised, length of life of individual bees, resistance to disease and storage of surplus. Why imagine that there COULD be some constituent in honey that aids digestion of pollen, or supplies some micro-nutrient otherwise missing? I admit the hypothesis arises only from respect for evolution. Flowers produce nectar solely - so far as we know - to attract pollinators, especially bees. If nectar of pure sugar would do as well - or better - why do plants expend energy on adding traces of minerals, enzymes, vitamins. minerals and (we are told) other components not yet analysed? It would seem that pollen is produced for the use of the plant itself - so that would not be the place to put components designed only to help the pollinators. There seem to be 2 possibilities: the trace components are in the juice of the plant for itself and it would take more energy to exclude them from nectar than to simply express them; or, that plant juice does NOT contain the components and they are added specifically through the nectaries for the benefit of pollinators. Does any plant biologist on the list know? I have been challenged to name some component in honey NOT available to bees through pollen. That of course I cannot do, not being a scientist. But even if there is nothing unique to honey, there is still the question of delivery. We know nurse bees eat pollen and honey before making brood food - but do we know that say foragers continue to eat pollen, and not rely on the traces in the honey they stock up on before a flight? Do bees always have an instinct to provide themselves a balanced diet? The issue of benefit to humans is really another thread but let's go on. Here the supposition that may be something more to honey than fine-tasting sugar again comes from reflecting on the evolutionary process, and pointing to an apparent dis-continuity. Folklore (Ancient Eygptian, Assyrians, Babylonians, Hebrews, Romans, Greek, mediaeval is full of references to the power of honey to promote health (as well as specific healing of the sick) - but in this scientific rational age beekeepers are saying honey is only nice sugar (which does not promote health). Were all those civilisations simply fooling themselves? There was also a long tradition of using herbs for healing. Was that all fraud? The case against fraud is the length of the tradition - probably extending back thousands of years. Humans have had the same brains as us for something like 250,000 years - as hunter gatherers they had time on their hands and would have had the curiosity to try eating various foods. If repeatedly no benefit was found from a certain plant, it seems unlikely the rumour of its usefullness could have survived in so long an aural tradition - where all knowledge was passed on by word of mouth, it was not written down and known only to a few specialists. So could it be that there ARE herbal components that promote human health - and living to old age - and that these same substances would be found in honey if we only looked? The A-Z of Vital Vitamins & Minerals still lists various plants for specific benefits - cranberry maintains bladder and kidney health, horse chestnut seeds tighten the vascular system, clinical studies have shown St John's Wort can have anti-depressant action (I quote few of many). My apiary is covered in St John's Wort and surrounded by chestnuts. Of course it is difficult to prove benefit to those who start a test clinically well - how do you measure how much 'weller' they get? But people can feel degrees of wellness themselves. Where new research does seem to be making an impact is on the use of honey in healing - particularly for burns, and for ulcers. Honey has an undoubted anti-bactericidal effect, due in part to the high osmolarity (bacteria are deprived of water), high acidity and breakdown of glucose to hydrogen peroxide at the interface with the wound. Pioneer work by Peter Molan on Manuka honey from New Zealand has resulted in samples of Manuka honey being graded 1-10 for antibacterial activity, and then sold for several times the price of food honey. This is especially clever as Manuka does not actually taste well. But research by Dr Rose Cooper at Cardiff has shown pasture honey is almost as effective - so any honey might be, but every sample varies according to the nectar content. But here's the bad news. Cooper included artificial honey in the tests in 1999/2000 for 'minimum inhibition concentrations (%v/v) of honey for bacteria isolated from infected wounds' , testing 7 bacteria. Against MRSA (a growing problem in hospitals) Manuka needed a concentration of 2.3, pasture 2.9 but artificial honey >30. Artificial honey was at its best against Escherichia coli : 4.0; 7.8; 23.4. Now you could say specific bactercidal activity has no relevance to maintaining general health - but bacterial damage is increasingly implicated in say stomach cancer for example , so keeping down bacteria could be as important in the well as the sick. The low performance of artificial honey may explain the virulence of attack on the bare idea that some honies could be good for you. If there was more research - and more honies joined Manuka in the higher price bracket - 'naturally produced' honey from careful hobby beekeepers will gain. However, honey from beekeepers feeding sugar is likely to be found at the low end of the anti-bactericidal range and so will remain a low value product. Certainly, we have heard some professionals deride the whole notion of honey being healthful. Is this really a clever marketing ploy? It reminds of Gerald Rattner, of the family jewellers, who slammed his own products as crap in an after dinner speech a few years back - and watched his share price crash. Would the public buy the notion of 'honey for health' , if backed by more research? The reasons honey is bought in USA were surveyed by the National Honey Board and updated in the summary by Ann Harman in Bee Biz April 2003. Honey is bought as a tasty sweetener - but also for treating colds and flu. Sales rise in winter for that reason. So the folk memory of treating with honey survives in part - the message would need only to be widened. The potential gains are great. Honey consumers today buy only 4 jars a year on average. In Ancient Egypt, a groom contracted to supply his wife with 32 pounds of honey every year of the marriage. Time to reintroduce failure to buy your wife enough beekeeper's own honey as grounds for divorce? I am accused of reciting a mantra concerning natural honey and its benefits. I hope I have only an open mind, and wonder why others have not, since at present we cannot be sure either way until there is more research. But at this time of life so much has ended in disillusion - let me hang on to the thought that keeping bees in accordance with nature is good for me. To have to burn my hives and keep osmia rufa just to collect pollen would be sad, although they don't sting. Playing with my Honey-Maker would just not be the same fun - ' a jar of Sourwood honey, Madam? Just a moment - let me add a pinch of this mineral and two of that to this cane sugar syrup, tip in some enzymes and a dollop of artificial Sourwood essence, swirl around to activate and then drip through warmed air to reduce the water. It will be ready in an hour, Madam'. Not for me - but you might make more money, Jim. Useful reading: Dr Beck and Smedley , Honey and Your Health, 1947 (222 pages); Cecil Tonsley , Honey for Health, 1969 (131 pages); D C Jarvis, Artritis and Folk Medecine, 1960 - endorses honey and apple cider vinegar as the folk medicine found in Vermont, 156 pages ; Royden Brown , Bee Hive Products Bible, 1993 ( 220 pages) - an unabashed apiarian who believes in regulating his own health through honey ; Dr Hasnain Walji, Bee Health, 1996 (78 pages) ; Dr Harry Riches, Medical Aspects of Beekeeping , 2000 (a cautious approach from a medical doctor and well known UK beekeeper - 83 pages); Joe Traynor, Honey The Gourmet Medecine, 2002 (101 pages) ; and the only fully research-based account Jones and Munn, Honey and Healing, IBRA 2001 - summaries of lectures by Dr Molan and Dr Rose Cooper and others, bags of links to scientific reports, 49 pages. Robin Dartington Who agrees with Hamlet that 'there is more in this heaven and earth than you dream of in your philosophy, Horatio'. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington said: > the plant is not stupid and has a cunning plan. and > SO another group of plants have chosen to develop a mutually beneficial relationship > with insects It would seem that you portray plants as having far more awareness, volition and prescience than has ever been even suggested via scientific (and even un-scientific) observation. I'm as much in awe of the fabric of life as the next guy, but such lofty pseudo-religious ascriptions seem a bit out of place here. Could we please focus on the facts as we know them? Respectfully, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:39:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want to be really dull. Man lifted himself from the primitive thru his imagination - or don't we know that? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:45:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Colonies fed sugar need to be compared on amount of brood raised, length of life of individual bees, resistance to disease and storage of surplus. One could add to this list the degree of bee contentment - honey tastes a lot better than sugar syrup.:) This may be the reason why bees turn down sugar syrup whenever there is a nectar flow on. I am only a casual observer but it seems to me that bees raised during a strong nectar flow, appear more vigorous with longer wings than those raised on syrop in the late winter/ early spring. The human analogy is: one can live on white bread but multigrain with bran tastes and envigorates better.:) >>Do bees always have an instinct to provide themselves a balanced diet? In the case of pollen, I understand that often bees can not differentiate between high- and low-protein pollen. Of course, when one is starving white bread will do. :) In basic economics, the sugar syrup may do. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:26:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Robin writes "A professional beekeeper who needs to feed his family may justly take more from his bees than a hobby beekeeper living comfortably on a secure pension. But there will always be a limit - and the possibility of greed is always with us." Robin clarifies his previous post where it seemed he felt people who feed their bees sugar are the moral equivelants of child abusers. Now he seemingly writes that the morality of taking honey from bees is based on the income of the plunderer. Specifically, if a man needs to take honey from bees he is just in doing so if he feels he needs the honey to feed his family, but a wealthier person is acting immorally if he take the same amount of honey. My question is, if the possibility of greed is always with us, and "And note it is by definition a relative term" Then who is qualified to pass judgement on whether or not we are acting in "a rapacious desire for more than one needs or deserves, of food, wealth or power" ? Are there any volunteers? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:21:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Robin, >Man lifted himself from the primitive thru his imagination - or don't we >know that? > No, we do not know that. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:12:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Apilife VAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I was curious as to how many are going to use Apilife Var instead of Apistan and Coumophos? I would like to, but found out that Michigan did not apply for Section 18 approval until July 3 which may or may not get it through all of the red tape before drop dead date to treat this fall. Any comments. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@NETZERO.COM wrote: > I am > only a casual observer but it seems to me that bees raised during a > strong nectar flow, appear more vigorous with longer wings than those > raised on syrop in the late winter/ early spring. snip > In the case of pollen, I understand that often bees can not > differentiate between high- and low-protein pollen. > > Of course, when one is starving white bread will do. :) In basic > economics, the sugar syrup may do. First, there is so much in the archives that I really hesitate to respond to laziness. There is a ton of information about nectar, honey, sugar syrup and even some about white bread. There are also direct attributes to scientific studies that back up most all the comments made to date. I know since I posted several. All nectars are not equal. Some kill. The bees gather it just as they do all nectars. They do not run their gas chromatograph nor do they do a complete search of the literature to determine that what they are collecting will do harm. Bees are not deep thinkers, but I beginning to believe they surpass some on this list. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:31:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim is still concerned with moral judgements on various appoaches to the management of bees, and asks if there are volunteers to make the judgements. I would hope every beekeeper already makes such judgements - but only concerning his/her own actions. In a civilised society the members need to consider and be aware of the consequences of their actions. When the consequences are potentially so serious that it is too risky to leave the judgement to the individual, society introduces laws and regulations - and sets up formal channels for judgement of violations. The issues we are discussing are basically practical - and not a moral problem for society. Does sugar feeding benefit bees or not - or is it done just to increase income, by those who have that aim? Is it worth producing honey on the basis that it is likely to be good for human health, or is it only a sweetie? Each beekeeper will have their own position and hopefully some will be prepared to share it thru this list to help others to review or develop their own position. Society would come into it - and make official judgements - if for example claims were made to customers in order to justify a sale, that cannot be substantiated. So at present, on the issue of whether eating honey is good for human health, we can note the extensive historical documents that show people thru the ages have believed it did, and we can reason from this that it would not have been believed for so long unless empirical evidence gained within those earlier societies supported the belief (like honey eaters as a group seemed to have better general health or lived to greater age), and using imagination we can speculate where beneficial components in honey may come from (and so define a research aim) but we certainly cannot put on a jar that 'if u eat this u will feel better'. At present, that has to be left to the individual customer to decide. Tim seems touchy if anyone questions how others manage their bees. But it is just a matter of individual conscience - 'if the cap fits, wear it'. Nothing I say is meant to take away the right to decide for ourselves , with the limits of where risk to society sets in. I do hope some lurkers may comment on the BEEKEEPING issues that have been raised and move us on from carping about choice of language. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:01:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Man lifted himself from the primitive thru his imagination - or don't we > >know that? > > > Tom Elliott said: No, we do not know that. > > Right. Can we however use our imagination to imagine how early man used his imagination? Is that permissable? Let us imagine for example early man dragging his goods along on sleds as the North American Indians continued to do until the settlers arrived. Then somehow, in the Middle East, the wheel came into use. Blind chance? Someone just stuck a round object under his sled for no reason? Or did someone observe round stones rolling over each other in a stream bed and the IMAGINE what would happen if he put a stone under his sled? Or perhaps he dragged his sled over a fallen branch and found it easier to pull the sled while the branch was there and then made the enormous leap of imagining what would happen if he could fix a branch to rotate around an axle fixed permanently? We do not know for sure, right, but does it not help to imagine what might have happened - as a way to train our imaginations for applying to new problems? Progress is so often made by moving ideas sideways - or is that another statement Tom would challenge? Interesting reading: J Bronowski, The Ascent of Man, 1973 - book to accompany the UK TV series, 480 pages. I quote ' Among the multitude of animals wich scamer, fly, burrow, and swim around us, man is the only one who is not locked into his environmnet. His imagination, his reason, his emotional subtlety and toughness, made it possible for him not to accept the environment but to change it.' So, not imagination on its own. The earlier series, Lord Clark on Civilisation, is also interesting - buit I cannot find my copy to quote. Thru out this post, his includes her. Let's get back to somewhere close to beekeeping. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:37:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Plant reproduction and bee visits In-Reply-To: <200308070401.h7740O4t029448@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: "It would seem that you portray plants as having far more awareness, volition and prescience than has ever been even suggested via scientific (and even un-scientific) observation. I'm as much in awe of the fabric of life as the next guy, but such lofty pseudo-religious ascriptions seem a bit out of place here. Could we please focus on the facts as we know them?" However, I believe that Roger was poetically referring to the process of evolution of the plants by survival of those plants that best utilized the visits of the bees the best. Those that didn't have their stamens and pistols most strategically placed so that bees would brush against them in the process of harvesting the necter would have a much less of a chance of reproducing. Those with the most kids, seeds, populates the world. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:26:36 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Robin Dartington said: > the core group of professional beekeepers on this > list has concentrated on crushing There was no intent to crush. If anything was "crushed", it merely collapsed under the weight of the evidence. Also, the comments have come from both for-profit beekeepers and for-pleasure-only hobby beekeepers. > the observation It was not "observation". Observation requires evidence to observe. It was apparently pure speculation. > that artificial honey (made by feeding refined sugar or fructose > syrup) is a deficient food for honeybees compared with their natural > food - honey-- A basic point skipped in the above is that the natural food for bees is NECTAR, not honey. Bees do not consume honey directly, but must dilute it with water first. Comparing alternative feeds with honey is somewhat like comparing grape juice with grape jam. Comparing alternative feeds with nectar would be comparing "apples to apples" ("apple juice to apple juice"?). > and on a passing reference to greed being a poor motive for action. I'm not sure what "greed" has to do with the issue. It would be silly to accuse a beekeeper of having "taken too much honey" last fall, and not leaving enough honey to sustain the bees through the poor foraging conditions that extended from April through July in parts of the USA. Even a colony from which no honey was harvested last year would have certainly eaten through 100% of stores by late May under these conditions. The East got and it still getting so much rain that TV meteorologists are getting letters and e-mails saying simply "please make it stop". The Midwest is suffering drought. Some beekeepers were forced to start feeding some hives in June. Many hives will produce no harvestable crop. What other than disaster would prompt beekeepers to "feed" in June and July? > Some beekeepers remove honey the bees would otherwise eat themselves, > and substitute sugar syrup, in order to increase their income. Who are these "some beekeepers"? I don't know any. "Income" is NOT the reason for fall feeding. In fact, harvesting honey that would be required for overwintering and replacing it with syrup would put the colony at risk if evaporation was not completed between last harvest and first clustering. Think of all the fanning required to evaporate sufficient feed from a feeder to make up a colony's complete winter stores. Think of late summer and fall nighttime temperatures, when it is simply to chilly to expect any evaporation at all. The concept is laughable anywhere beyond 20 degrees from the equator. The reason for fall feeding is to SUPPLEMENT the colony's stores, to better insure winter survival. No one wants to see a colony starve in winter or early spring. Not all colonies need feeding in fall, which clearly disproves the claim that there is a general practice of harvesting that might be described as "greedy". Here's the question - do I remove 3 supers in the fall harvest, leave one for the bees, and feed to insure that they pack the broodnest and super, or do I remove 2 and leave 2? I must make a decision in about 30 seconds, and I cannot leave partial supers. It is a subjective judgment, and is most often decided by the amount of time between the harvest and first frost, the contents of the broodnest, and the strength of the hive. > I happen to believe it is bad beekeeping to actually drive bees to > starvation by taking too much of the spring crop, >>WHAT<< spring crop? You don't seem to understand that "spring" here in the parts of the USA this year was a near complete disaster for many beekeepers. Any beekeeper would much rather not have to feed bees, as the labor required is extensive, the feed itself is certainly not free, and the effort takes away time from other tasks. It would appear that we will not be burdened by much harvesting, so perhaps the labor is simply "different" than usual. :) > [Keith Benson] cuts to the point with 'don't confuse the presence > of a molecule or two of something with the necessity of its presence, > in the end it may simply be tolerated and not required'. To go further, please understand that the "molecule or two" found in honey becomes a mere statistical probability for any one bee once the honey has been diluted prior to consumption. Look at it this way: Let's model a cell of honey with a 1/2 pound bag of M&Ms candy. Let's assume that the red M&Ms represent the "vitamins and minerals" found in that specific cell of honey (which is over-representing the percentages by several orders of magnitude). Now, let me pour each member of this list a handful of candy from the bag. Did you get ANY red M&Ms in your handful? If the bees required some specific mineral or mix of minerals and vitamins, does this mean that some meals are "deficient", while others are not? Given that we are dealing with a game of chance here, what happens to the bee who NEVER gets a red M&M? Does that bee die as a larvae? As a young adult? In a more realistic model, we would first "dilute" the M&Ms with something else, (perhaps gumdrops), which would FURTHER reduce the chances that any one person would have a red M&M in their hand. Regardless, my example should make clear that any claim that such minor components of nectar could be "critical to health" would imply that such minor components must somehow be provided with certainty to all bees in a hive. This should be an easy-to-grasp refutation of any claim that such minerals found in nectar are mission-critical to bee health. > why do plants expend energy on adding traces of minerals, enzymes, > vitamins minerals and (we are told) other components not yet analysed? They don't. They don't expend energy on it because they don't "add" anything. The minerals come from the water and the soil. Nectar is not "magic", it is a mere carbohydrate created from water, carbon dioxide, and sunlight. > It would seem that pollen is produced for the use of the plant itself - > so that would not be the place to put components designed only to help > the pollinators. Many pollinators are attracted by nectar, and it might seem counter-productive for a plant to produce pollen that would be collected and eaten, rather than simply spread around to other plants, but if one looks at bees with care, one finds that even a bee that has "groomed" itself and packed its pollen baskets has some pollen on its body, and THAT pollen will be spread. It is also true that plants that produce many seeds or many fruits are also seemingly "inefficient", in that most of these seeds will never have a chance of sprouting. But it is a matter of viewpoint. Some might call it "inefficient", others would describe it as "elegantly redundant and fail-safe". jim (Who finds claims about honey as a "superior bee feed" "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..." [Macbeth - Act V Scene 5] ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:21:19 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Bees and flowers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is not strictly related to Oregon's native plants, but as folks= interested in plants I thought you might like to know that there is a= wonderful new web site that lists the insect visitors -- including bees,= flies, beetles, and butterflies -- to several hundred flower species of= the US Midwest prairies. Early last century Charles Robertson recorded the insects on flowers in the= area around Carlinville, Illinois. He published his records in 1929 in the= book "Flowers and Insects." Only a few copies were printed and even fewer= survive, and until now have not been accessible to most people. The study= remains one of the earliest exhaustive pollinator community surveys. Now= John Hilty in Illinois has compiled the floral visitation records from= that book, updated taxonomic nomenclature, and posted them to a searchable= web site: http://www.shout.net/~jhilty/. The work done by Robertson was an= amazing resource, so I am really pleased to know it is now accessible.= This web site should be a valuable resource to anyone wanting to know more= about flowers and their pollinators. If you want to read more on Robertson's work, see an article in= Conservation Ecology, at http://www.consecol.org/vol5/iss1/. In this, John= Marlin and Wally LaBerge discuss Robertson's work and compare his records= with their own from the same region. Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:25:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: > that artificial honey (made by feeding refined sugar or fructose > syrup) is a deficient food for honeybees compared with their natural food - honey-- Some beekeepers will always believe honey is better for the bees than syrup. They are entitiled to their opinions (which has not been backed up by research). Robin said: Some beekeepers remove honey the bees would otherwise eat themselves, and substitute sugar syrup, in order to increase their income. I do not expect the list to understand the methods of the professional beekeeper. Most professional beekeepers do the above for several reasons. We pull all supers so hives will fit on trucks nicely and give the bees fructose to eat and winter on because syrup is cheaper and I have NEVER seen a study done by the USDA saying honey is better to feed bees than syrup. Call it greed or whatever a commercial beekeeper is not going to feed a drum of grade A honey to his bees unless feeding the honey is his only option. Jim said: Here's the question - do I remove 3 supers in the fall harvest, leave one for the bees, and feed to insure that they pack the broodnest and super, or do I remove 2 and leave 2? I hope Jim (or beekeepers reading this post) are not treating with whatever while the above supers are on and reusing those supers the next year for honey production. When ever a super is used in the brood chamber and chemicals used then the former honey super never is used as a honey super again unless wax is changed. Once you use Apistan/checkmite you give up the option of using supers for both brood rearing and honey production. A main reason why Dee Lusby never wanted to use a chemical as her and Ed do harvest honey from any of the five deep boxes they use in Arizona. Which was the practice of beekeepers for years *before* chemicals. Robin said: > I happen to believe it is bad beekeeping to actually drive bees to starvation by taking too much of the spring crop, Starvation by removing all honey supers is common with hobby beekeepers in the Midwest. The bees have simply put all surplus honey in the supers and the flow is over. All bee books say to FEED after removing *all* supers *if* needed. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT ALL THE COMMERCIAL BEEKEEPERS I RUN WITH DO! Bob Ps. Thanks to the private email from the Outlaw's in Florida about the Outlaw family website. The picture of William Outlaw on the Swanee River brought back memories! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Bees and flowers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not strictly related to whether bees make flowers bigger or not, there is a= wonderful new web site that lists the insect visitors -- including bees,= flies, beetles, and butterflies -- to several hundred flower species of= the US Midwest prairies. Early last century Charles Robertson recorded the insects on flowers in the= area around Carlinville, Illinois. He published his records in 1929 in the= book "Flowers and Insects." Only a few copies were printed and even fewer= survive, and until now have not been accessible to most people. The study= remains one of the earliest exhaustive pollinator community surveys. Now= John Hilty in Illinois has compiled the floral visitation records from= that book, updated taxonomic nomenclature, and posted them to a searchable= web site: http://www.shout.net/~jhilty/. The work done by Robertson was an= amazing resource, so I am really pleased to know it is now accessible.= This web site should be a valuable resource to anyone wanting to know more= about flowers and their pollinators. If you want to read more on Robertson's work, see an article in= Conservation Ecology, at http://www.consecol.org/vol5/iss1/. In this, John= Marlin and Wally LaBerge discuss Robertson's work and compare his records= with their own from the same region. Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:06:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >My posts have been concerned with identifying possible causes for a colony >to become sick with virus (surely a major issue?) but the core group of >professional beekeepers on this list has concentrated on crushing the >observation that artificial honey (made by feeding refined sugar or fructose >syrup) is a deficient food for honeybees compared with their natural food - >honey-- > Two assumptions here Robin, and they are both wrong. A) I (as one of the people postin on the thread) am not a proffessional beekeeper, but I do have some knowledge of nutrition and physiology, B) no one was crushing anything, this is a discussion forum and some folks may simply not agree with you. >and on a passing reference to greed being a poor motive for action. >Such unbalanced response is curious - 'methinks the lady doth protest too >much' > Indeed particulalry if one uses a word count to identify whom is protesting too much . . . . > - and we can consider a possible reason in a moment. >First, greed is defined as ' a rapacious desire for more than one needs or >deserves, of food, wealth or power'. It has been listed as one of the seven >deadly sins, but with all respect to the religious, avoidance of greed is >surely just a common-sense rule for living in social groups, and we do not >need to invoke the Great Beekeeper. And note it is by definition a >relative term. A professional beekeeper who needs to feed his family may >justly take more from his bees than a hobby beekeeper living comfortably on >a secure pension. > Hunh? I am sorry, I completely disagree. Then again this has little to do with nutrition. The value of the nectar as a source of nutrition to the bee has little to do with the needs of the beekeeper - lets stay focused. > Bees consume honey at 3 times - with brood food and pollen >when growing as larvae, when completing their development on emergence >(worker bees add 93% to the nitrogen in their heads within 5 days of >emergence, 76% in the abdomen and 37% in the thorax - due to eating pollen >but they must take honey for liquid as well) > Nope - they take nectar or watered down honey. Let us compare apple juice with apple juice and not marmalade here (eh Jim?). Eating honey for liquid (and you really mean water here - or you should) would be silly - there is precious little in it per calorie burned. > , and as adult bees before >leaving to forage. > They are not drinking strait honey - they water it down, diluting it many fold. > So the research must be thorough if it is to rule out >the possibility that something in honey is needed before bees can make full >use of pollen. Colonies fed sugar need to be compared on amount of brood >raised, length of life of individual bees, resistance to disease and storage >of surplus. > >Why imagine that there COULD be some constituent in honey that aids >digestion of pollen, or supplies some micro-nutrient otherwise missing? I >admit the hypothesis arises only from respect for evolution. > You need to lose the idea that there is something driving evolution with a purpose - plants produce nectar to attract bees, not to nourish them. > Flowers >produce nectar solely - so far as we know - to attract pollinators, >especially bees. > I am with you except for the especially bees part - there are a plethera of nectar eaters out there, a great many are not bees. > If nectar of pure sugar would do as well - or better - why >do plants expend energy on adding traces of minerals, enzymes, vitamins. >minerals and (we are told) other components not yet analysed? > Do you presume that everything in nectar is there because the plant is expending energy to place it there? > It would seem >that pollen is produced for the use of the plant itself - so that would not >be the place to put components designed only to help the pollinators. > Sure it would - I think Jim explained this quite well in his response. But again, plants are not placing anything in pollen or honey to nourish bees. Does the beet in your garden swell with sugar and betacaroteins and other goodies for you, or itself? I think you have very self-centered beets, as they should be. Flowers make pollen to reproduce and nectar to lure pollenators. The fact that some animals exploit these materials for their nutrition is not relavent. >I have been challenged to name some component in honey NOT available to bees >through pollen. That of course I cannot do, not being a scientist. > It is the core question. > But >even if there is nothing unique to honey, there is still the question of >delivery. We know nurse bees eat pollen and honey > Watered honey or preferentially nectar. This is an important detail >before making brood > food - but do we know that say foragers continue to eat pollen, and not >rely on the traces in the honey they stock up on before a flight? > Use of watered honey in this context would be metabolically mot efficient if the bee had to 'handle' nothing other than the energy, i.e. the sugar. Indeed, we know that the respiratory index for honey is 1, strongly suggesting simple carbohydrate metabolism. > Do bees >always have an instinct to provide themselves a balanced diet? > Nope, not always. >The issue of benefit to humans is really another thread but let's go on. >Here the supposition that may be something more to honey than fine-tasting >sugar again comes from reflecting on the evolutionary process, and pointing >to an apparent dis-continuity. Folklore (Ancient Eygptian, Assyrians, >Babylonians, Hebrews, Romans, Greek, mediaeval is full of references to the >power of honey to promote health (as well as specific healing of the sick) - >but in this scientific rational age beekeepers are saying honey is only nice >sugar (which does not promote health). Were all those civilisations >simply fooling themselves? > Robin, do you really want to get into a lengthy list of cockamamie things that previous civilizations did that were later shown to be, well, cockamamie? Medicine is rife with snake oil. Heck, half the stuff we do today will be looked at with amusement and in some cases shock in 10-20 years. > There was also a long tradition of using herbs >for healing. Was that all fraud? > Not all, but a good deal of it was, or was replaced wth more effective treatments. Not everything from the past is wrong, however, not everythign from the past that has endured is, by default, accurate, effective or sensible. > The case against fraud is the length of >the tradition - probably extending back thousands of years. > Tradition is no case against fraud. Read up on the plague. Millions of Europeans were dying at the hands of their "phycicians" who refused to break tradition and lance the buboes. Elsewhere, where no such traditional prohibitions existed the dealth toll was lower. I knnow it sounds comforting to thing that grannies old cure for this or that actually worked, but generally speaking granny lacked some data and made some bad choices also. > Humans have had >the same brains as us for something like 250,000 years - as hunter gatherers >they had time on their hands and would have had the curiosity to try eating >various foods. If repeatedly no benefit was found from a certain plant, it >seems unlikely the rumour of its usefullness could have survived in so long >an aural tradition - where all knowledge was passed on by word of mouth, it >was not written down and known only to a few specialists. > Millions of people have been eating twinkies (http://www.boston.com/globe/magazine/2003/0316/twinkies.htm) for 73+ years. And they keep doing it. Is that sound nutrition? > So could it be >that there ARE herbal components that promote human health - and living to >old age - and that these same substances would be found in honey if we only >looked? > There are indeed benefits to the consumption of some herbal products. To suggest that they make a meaningful difference found in the quantities present in honey is stretching it. > The A-Z of Vital Vitamins & Minerals still lists various plants >for specific benefits - cranberry maintains bladder and kidney health, horse >chestnut seeds tighten the vascular system, clinical studies have shown St >John's Wort can have anti-depressant action (I quote few of many). > > My >apiary is covered in St John's Wort and surrounded by chestnuts. Of course >it is difficult to prove benefit to those who start a test clinically well - >how do you measure how much 'weller' they get? But people can feel degrees >of wellness themselves. > Robin, just because one wants to beleive that honey is a miraculous distillation of all that is good and pure won't make it so. I think a little honesty is involved here - particulalry because this is a food product. Toute it to be the elixir of life and when people find out it is just good old honey, you might have some explaining to do. Call it what it is, selel it for a fair price and no one gets cries foul. >Where new research does seem to be making an impact is on the use of honey >in healing - particularly for burns, and for ulcers. > > Honey has an undoubted >anti-bactericidal effect, due in part to the high osmolarity (bacteria are >deprived of water), high acidity and breakdown of glucose to hydrogen >peroxide at the interface with the wound. > I have yet to see this become a standard medical therapy - in fact, it is barely a fringe thing. There are far better ways to deal with wounds. Honey, with its variable coposition will never be accepted by maintstream medicine. It will be stidued, and the active ingredients/formulation will simply be repackaged in such a was as to ensure consistancy. Or it will be dropped depending on how efficaceous it turns out to be. > Pioneer work by Peter Molan on >Manuka honey from New Zealand has resulted in samples of Manuka honey being >graded 1-10 for antibacterial activity, and then sold for several times the >price of food honey. This is especially clever as Manuka does not actually >taste well. > As a clever marketing ploy counts as biomedical research? Bleach has considerable antibacterial activity, and different dilutions can be graded in much the same way. I would not suggest it as a systemic treatment though. Facts, must be kept in context. Heck, red hot iron has antibacterial properties, but that went out of vogue a long time ago . . . . > But research by Dr Rose Cooper at Cardiff has shown pasture >honey is almost as effective - so any honey might be, but every sample >varies according to the nectar content. But here's the bad news. Cooper >included artificial honey in the tests in 1999/2000 for 'minimum inhibition >concentrations (%v/v) of honey for bacteria isolated from infected wounds' , >testing 7 bacteria. Against MRSA (a growing problem in hospitals) Manuka >needed a concentration of 2.3, pasture 2.9 but artificial honey >30. >Artificial honey was at its best against Escherichia coli : 4.0; 7.8; 23.4. >Now you could say specific bactercidal activity has no relevance to >maintaining general health - but bacterial damage is increasingly implicated >in say stomach cancer for example , so keeping down bacteria could be as >important in the well as the sick. > And? Killing bacteria in a test tube is childs play. How would you suggest one maintains a 2.3+ percentage of honey in gastric juice? Would one even need to? Fo how long? Does it penetrate the crypts where the bacterial (helicobacter) you allude to reside? Are they even affected by honey as are the bacteria you mention in the studies above? One must be careful when interpreting such information and then applying it to the clinical setting. Life is more complicated than a test tube. >The low performance of artificial honey may explain the virulence of attack >on the bare idea that some honies could be good for you. > I doubt it. > If there was more >research - and more honies joined Manuka in the higher price bracket - >'naturally produced' honey from careful hobby beekeepers will gain. > If it is based on flimsy evidence and clever marketing, then I would have no sympathy should it ever some back to bite the producer in the fanny. Careful what you claim - people are incresingly becoming sensitive to sensationalism. And there is that honesty thing. >However, honey from beekeepers feeding sugar is likely to be found at the >low end of the anti-bactericidal range and so will remain a low value >product. Certainly, we have heard some professionals deride the whole >notion of honey being healthful. Is this really a clever marketing ploy? > That is just it Robin - it is not a marketing ploy, just keeping bees alive under particular circumstances. >Would the public buy the notion of 'honey for health' , if backed by more >research? The reasons honey is bought in USA were surveyed by the National >Honey Board and updated in the summary by Ann Harman in Bee Biz April 2003. >Honey is bought as a tasty sweetener - but also for treating colds and flu. > As a simply tasty throat coat. Let us not try to make more of it than there is. Even my grandmother, who never missed a sore throat/cough with a spoonful of honey knew that. >Sales rise in winter for that reason. > Sales of a great many comfort food rise in the winter - what of it? Can we talk nutrition? > I am accused of reciting a mantra concerning natural honey and its benefits. > This is a poor accusation, a mantra is usially a *short* repetative phrase. ;) Just poking fun . . . . >I hope I have only an open mind, and wonder why others have not, since at >present we cannot be sure either way until there is more research. > > But at >this time of life so much has ended in disillusion - let me hang on to the >thought that keeping bees in accordance with nature is good for me. > Robin you can hang onto any idea you like, but please don't think you have cornered the market on the open mind. One might reasonably suggest that you simply refuse to see the evidence that syrup is equivalent in some applications and superior in others as a bee feed. > >Robin Dartington >Who agrees with Hamlet that 'there is more in this heaven and earth than you >dream of in your philosophy, Horatio'. > Keith, who, had he been stading there with those boys would have replied, Yeah Hamlet, there is so much to heaven and earth that we really don't need to run about making up other bits in an attempt to enrich it further" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:23:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Plant reproduction and bee visits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: > > However, I believe that Roger was poetically referring to the process of > evolution of the plants by survival of those plants that best utilized the > visits of the bees the best. Perhaps, but then, no "process" or fact has ever been observed supporting either mainstream theory of evolution - Darwinism or punctuated equilibrium. In fact, the overwhelming majority of data and observation refute both theories. It should also be noted that Robin did not refute my reference to "pseudo-religious" inferences. Curiously, if we make poetic/philosophical/pseudo-scientific statements about the origins/nature of life that invoke pantheism/animism (which I believe Robin did), evolution, or non-Christian deities, no one would complain. If, however, someone were to lucidly inject a relevant statement supporting Judeo-Christian beliefs, the post would either be censored, or create an immediate uproar. Go figure. Personally, I am content knowing that all of us are interested in beekeeping, and probably have diverse philosophical and religious beliefs. However, I do think we should try not to inject them into our bee related discussions too often. Merely a humble observation on the nature of things. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Leatherman Subject: Create world peace! Stop harvesting, selling and eating honey NOW! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have not been able to keep up on reading BEE-L the last few weeks so if someone else has mentioned this site I apologize. Maybe you all didn't know this but honey is the key to the violence in the Mideast (and probably everywhere else). Guess we're all going to have to give in to the mites/beetles/viruses after all and trade our bees in for cows. http://organicmd.org/land.html Ya just gotta love this guy. Alden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:40:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees In-Reply-To: <200308070126.h771Mr4R025130@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 6 Aug 2003 at 21:26, Tim Vaughan wrote: > Robin clarifies his previous post where it seemed he felt people who > feed > their bees sugar are the moral equivelants of child abusers. I could not tell you how many times I have been asked: "When are you going to rob the bees?" Or, "Have you robbed the bees yet?" I look them right in the eye and tell them. "I have never robbed the bees yet, and I never intend to do so." Usually they are surprised. Then I explain. If you rob the bees, they will starve, or they won't be able to keep their babies warm in winter. My goal is to "harvest a surplus," not to rob them. There was no such thing as a bee keeper until modern times when we learned how to do this without harming the bees. Before that we only had bee robbers. I sulphured a wild hive in the old fashioned way once, and it made me sick to see all the puking, dying bees. I resolved to never do it again. If I harvest too much, and the bees are at risk of starvation, then it is my responsibility to feed them. Sometimes I give them frames of honey, sometimes I give them sugar syrup. They are wild creatures but they are under my care. The same is true of their health or risk of parasites. I have accepted that responsibility, just as I would have if I kept cattle. My objection to Robin's statements is that they were absolute. I'm glad to see some modification in them, as the culmunitive experience of so many good beekeepers is that the benefits of feeding sugar whenever there is a shortage of nectar far exceeds any drawbacks of lack of trace minerals that may be missing in sugar. Any good beekeeper can look at the hives and can see, smell and hear the signs of robust, healthy bees. When one can see, time after time, that hives are roaring strong because of a timely sugar feed in late winter, or during a hot dry summer, it is irritating to have someone come along and assert catagorically that one is harming the bees by the feeding" The decision that sugar is bad was made before ANY testing of the idea, and clung to with absolute tenacity despite observations to the contrary. I certainly would welcome good studies of this question (by those who hadn't already concluded before the test, that sugar is bad), but doubt that they will be done. There just isn't enough evidence that this is really an issue, to trigger such studies. Many commercial beekeepers have done this in a less formal manner. Most of our bees may get fed in a timely manner; yet wet weather may make our access to a particular bee yard impossible and they get missed. The difference in the yard that missed the feeding is pretty obvious. Now a "real" scientist might do tissue studies to see if the bees have suffered any nutrional deficiency. A beekeeper might simply observe that the bees are fat and healthy and they get out and do the job we like to see them do. Robin brings our attention to another area where this absolute, arrogant assertion of truth is made over a matter that is tentative. Robin may respect evolution, but the incredible beauty and complexity of our bees could be a result of a wise creator. The evolutionists consider that they have absoute fact, and they get downright hostile whenever anyone challenges their efforts to dominate the educational system. In fact they have a religion, which has made the primary decisions beforehand. Someone has said that if a lie is repeated often enough and strongly enough people will begin to believe it. The same could be said for notions, unproven theories and half truths. I also question the comparison between human needs and the bees' needs. We are so utterly different. Recent studies have shown that the darker honeys are better supplies with cancer fighting antioxidents, which of course makes them the logical choice for human consumption. But long beekeeper experience has shown that these are the hardest for the bees to digest. Having been raised on buckwheat honey, I kind of enjoy the idea that the best honey for humans is the worst for bees. Perhaps here we have another hint at a wise Providence. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:51:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Robin says to feed the bees honey and Bob says to feed syrup. Robin even then says that bees winter better on syrup - verified by research but still says that honey is better feed for bees. One point not seen yet is that feeding bees syrup will not spread American Foulbrood disease while feeding contaminated honey will. Research has show that AFB spores are in honey produced by colonies with sub-clinical AFB ( no symptoms of disease ) so any honey is suspect or should be suspect and could spread the disease. It is far better from a disease spread standpoint to feed syrup than honey. FWIW blane Who feeds syrup when he feeds bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Bees and flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Let's get back to somewhere close to beekeeping. > Robin Dartington Thank you. That was, in fact, my original point. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:02:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: AFB questions. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I wondered if and how bees clean out cells with liquified larvae killed by AFB. Can they remove the liquid - can they suck it up? - or scrape up dried up scale? Also, has it been determined if power washing can remove AFB spores from the inside surfaces of a honey extractor. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:19:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Don Campbell Subject: Unqueenable hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, One of my hives has me puzzled this summer. It was started from a package in late April, took off fine, nice brood pattern, ect. Then it appeared to have lost its queen in early June. They were making queen cells, no new eggs, and I could not find the marked queen. By early July the queen cups were all open but no eggs being laid. So I place a frame of new eggs from another hive with this one just to make sure. Two weeks later they are all capped, no queen cups?? I thought, they must have a queen; she just hasn't been laying yet- this was about July 17. I went back to this hive today (aug 7) no eggs, only capped drone cells in a tight pattern! I've seen birds eating my bees this summer, maybe the attempts at queen making were the birds’ lunch. I don't know if there is a laying worker or what, but I definitely have a problem with this hive. So I intend to place this broodless hive on top of a split, with a good queen, using the newspaper method. Would anyone like to offer comments, or have seen a similar problem? Thanks, Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:54:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees "Blane White" said: > One point not seen yet is that feeding bees syrup will not spread American Foulbrood > disease while feeding contaminated honey will. It is far better from a disease spread > standpoint to feed syrup than honey. Agree wholeheartedly. Feeding honey is also much more likely to start robbing - madness in my opinion. Using fondant is even better from the robbing point of view. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:05:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Unqueenable hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you have a laying worker. The newspaper method will work almost every time. Do not try to just introduce a new queen. Laying workers make this very risky. Normally they will not accept a new queen, just kill her. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::