From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:28:40 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2C14906D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZec011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0308C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 118982 Lines: 2642 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: Beekeepers and treatments In-Reply-To: <20030813130353.76274.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Wettergreen wrote: > > Second, someone asked about how the season is going. I > only have two hives located in Batavia, Illinois, but > thus far, this year has been going gangbusters. The 3 > pound package that I put on drawn comb already > produced 100 pounds and the hive that didn't die last > year produced 60 pounds, with about another 50 in the > supers but uncapped. It should be a record-breaking > year. > > Chuck Wettergreen > beekeeper > meadmaker > Geneva, IL Weighing in at 150 lb from 3 hives near Walpole IL - one of the better years for me, and I'm not into to the good stuff yet - GOLDENROD!!! My 4th hive can't seem to figure out *what* to do with the super full of drawn comb. AL beekeeper meaddrinker Walpole, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: star thisle In-Reply-To: <002501c36251$aabe0a00$2f8079a5@rickWG5N33DUTV> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Star thistle in Cal.is a light yellow honey with a slight greenish tinge and is very slow to granulate(wish I had some,my bees in the thistle seem to be finding only rabbitbrush-yuck).I get an orange-brown honey from Cascara(Sierra Coffeeberry) that turns foamy as soon as it is heated.It is extremely slow to granulate and is said to have some medicinal value.Cascara species are found throughout the world and apparently are attractive to bees everywhere. ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:22:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Honey Crops in Upstate NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit factors such as location, queen type, age, I used 40 for pollination, some landowners have admitted to using pesticides, did they use them correctly, Aaron had vandalism one year, was I vandalized this year?, miticide, I used checkmite last year which Aaron I understand refuses to use...I can not sift it out. I will start the harvest next week and may see differences from hive to hive in the yard but on the whole the entire set of yards are producing consierably less than in past years. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:49:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Yoon/bee locale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:23:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 yskim@STGREGORYS.EDU writes: >=20 > I am poor, Kathy: I have a meager ten-acre lot on which I had dragged a > doublewide to homestead.=20 Yoon, Ten acres sounds wonderful to me! (I'm on 1/3rd of an acre). And a double=20 wide sounds spacious to me. We could afford only a 600 sq. ft. house. LOL I= t=20 sounds like you are RICH with bees. I just happened to live on the edge between a > wooded area and a nearby=20 > farmland, an almost ideal location, for which we > did our research before we purchased our land, something I will always do > if I were to move again. =20 Your location seems ideal. How wonderful for you. Luckily, our area seems=20 fairly good for bees, since I did no research when we bought our place 2 yea= rs=20 ago. (I didn't know I was going to be a beekeeper!) We border 12 acres of ap= ple=20 on one side and 4 acres on the other. One guy tills the other doesn't. There= =20 is foraging here with mustard and wild radish. Eucalyptus, blackberries, st= ar=20 thistle and home gardens abound. The only crop with a dearth of nectar are t= he=20 vineyards. The dirt is stripped free of any wildflowers. ANd more of the=20 orchards are being converted everyday. >=20 > To my best knowledge, there is one hobbyist keeping two colonies > near my home and several feral bees, whose locations I am well aware of. > In the future I am fix=E2=80=99n to split about 100 colonies evenly among=20= these > three yards. Anything beyond, I will disperse to other locations. There is a beekeeper of 500 hives who has bees near hear within a couple of= =20 miles, although only a couple dozen. Of the 18 swarms I captured this year,=20 only one came from around here. > Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 18 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers and treatments") Chuck Wettergreen said: > This is all well and good, but what if that brood > frame is full of honey, or has some brood in it? Do > you just take it anyway and melt it out? If you want to do this, you have to move frames around whenever you can. I think the best time is in early spring when there is less brood. (If you have drawn comb in good quantity, you CAN swap combs in fall, but I would not replace drawn comb with bare foundation in late fall, for obvious reasons.) But yeah - if your hives are packed with stores and brood, it is simply too late in the game to pull frames, and you are going to skip a year. This is not the end of the world. The colors simply reveal the ages of the frames. So, you have a brood box. Where do you put new or recycled frames of foundation? I slide them into the center of the box, or as close to the center as I can without breaking up the brood sphere. If you do this consistently, the oldest frames end up towards the edges of the box, and can be removed early in the next season with minimal risk of removing brood or stores. But what if the whole box contains comb of the same age? (Makes sense, as a new beekeeper will start with nothing more than a package and foundation.) Here, you have to look at the frames, and simply designate 1 or 2 of every 10 frames as "the worst", and get them moved to the edges of the box when you can, just to get the ball rolling. But you don't have to really do much of anything for the first few years. Just start putting tacks on NEW frames, so you don't end up with 20-year old brood comb. Existing in-service frames can be judged on the merits. I'm not suggesting using a hammer to sink a tack into a frame that is covered with bees, as I don't think the bees would like that very much. :) I start packages and splits in one or two "mediums", so when the time comes to add a second medium, they are nearly certain to have all their foundation drawn out. I then will add pre-drawn comb that was used for honey supers. These combs are clearly "older", so they get tacks assigned to them based on appearance of age, but are arbitrarily designated as at least one year older than the current year. Comb is arranged between the two boxes to keep the brood in the center, but any newly-drawn comb from the first supers that do NOT contain brood is moved up to the upper supers, and placed in the center, as it is "newer". The result is 2 to 4 boxes with a mix of old and new comb, all with pretty colors indicating which one is what one and what one is who. (Lather, rinse, and repeat for whatever number of brood boxes make up your standard colony.) And I'm NOT claiming that replacing two combs of each ten every year is really required. There are lots of colors out there, so one could set up a system based upon 10 colors rather than 5, and only replace 1 comb per box per year. I stuck with 5 colors simply because I have a large stack of supers from which to draw comb, and this gives me a way to (re)use frames that were not fully drawn out to optimal depth for 9-frame supers. >From what I've read, 5 years worth of residue build-up from the miticides might even be "too much" for optimal brood raising. If this turns out to be the case, I guess I'd start trying to pull two colors at a time. But I do think that every colony needs to draw SOME new comb every year, and not just cap and repair. In early spring, you've got all these very young bees that have nothing better to do than hang by their thumbs and draw comb. Might as well give them something productive to do. Wait a second - bees have THUMBS??? Well, look here, and you decide: http://www.qsl.net/kg4qdz/beefoot.jpg Looks like a thumb to me. It even looks like an "opposed thumb". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:30:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith & All, > You have a group of ten year old humans (n=10, 5 males, 5 females, > randomly selected from any US grammar school. They are presented with a > steaming plate of broccoli and another plate with a nice big slice of > chocolate cake with fudge frosting. How many 10 year olds would pick > the far more nutritious cake? > You are anthropomorphizing honey bees, they are not like people. Children, for the most part do not make judgements of this kind like an adult would. I think bees are very intelligent. For whatever reason bees prefer nectar over sugar syrup and you think bees would prefer watered down honey over sugar syrup and so do I. In my opinion this is probably because they know something that you do not. Not only that but they probably know something even the scientist do not yet know. I will give the benefit of the doubt to the bees and leave honey for the best nutrition that I could ever provide. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeepers and treatments ( marking frames) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: <> Denise said: Would you and others please expound on the system you use? Use a magic marker and write the date each frame is put in service on top of each frame. Another date is added each time new foundation is put in. Most of my honey supers frames are dated also as I remove old frames and frames with dark comb and sell those supers to my competition from time to time. I like to keep light comb in my extracting supers if possible. Selling supers needing repair with dark comb is easy in years of bumper honey crops and usually brings top dollar and is easier than replacing comb and doing repairs in my opinion. I separate supers on skids by condition and about a third of the total are always ready to sell if a interested buyer should inquire. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:02:05 -0300 Reply-To: Milton Xiscatti Michel Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milton Xiscatti Michel Organization: CTS Subject: Greetings to all MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a paraguay beekeeper. =20 Greetings to all :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Re: Healthcare of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Since this subject has be heavily drained already I tried reducing the question one more level. Honey fermented will yield Mead. Sugar fermented and distilled will yield rum. Both will provide the buzz that bees are know for but one has much worse a sting the next day. This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: AUCTIONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I know all of the cons about buying used equipment, but the auction I attended today was a perfect example of why to check out auctions that advertise beekeeping equipment. I had contacted the auctioneer about what was there but since most are not educated in beekeeping equipment he could not give me the specifics. Since the location was only about an hour away I decided to make the trip. A good bit of the equipment was used, old and as far as I was concerned, not worth hauling home. However, there were 10 new in box, full deeps and 10 new in box shallows. I was able to buy all as a single lot for $25.00. Just need to be assembled and painted. There was also one stack of shallows (6 or 7), purchased for $5.00 that were all filled with newly assembled frames-no foundation. There are deals out there, it just takes time an patience to find them. I usually see 3 or 4 of these per year within a couple of hours from home. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:35:09 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers and treatments") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Your comb marking method is ingenious but I donīt really see the point.A brood comb can be quite new but "ruined" by the bees by excessive drone cells / large holes / not sufficiently built out / off centre / mildewy /pollen clogged etc.,etc.Conversly, a fairly old brood comb may have been on the outer edge of the broodbox and mainly used for honey, if not mildewy it may last some time.Iīm trying to say that the condition of the comb is more important than itīs age.The oldtimers claimed that bees winter better on old brood comb. The only exception I see is where, say ,Coumaphos has been used and is in the wax.Only wax replacement can really get rid of unwanted Coumaphos, even then some may have reached the supers.I know that nosema spores can be on old comb but this is a special case, either my bees have ( had ) nosema, in which case I may well replace comb or they havenīt. Dysentry-contaminated comb obviously has to go. On empty brood comb I always do the translucency test.If you canīt see the shadow, thro the comb, of your hand against the sun, reject the comb;this will limit the amount of brood-rearing a comb undergoes. I donīt see the point of routinely replacing wax in supers except to get rid of pollen-contaminated comb. If a queen excluder is used ( and works ) why would the super comb age? Clean super comb is seldom damaged by wax moth at our temperatures. These comments do not apply to foul brood contaminated comb. Regards, Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:27:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Moderator Subject: BEE-L Interruption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L was affected by the recent power outage. UA computers were shut down over the weekend to avoid damage from power fluctuations, and they are coming up into service again this (Monday) morning. At this point, it appears that any email sent to BEE-L over the weekend may have been returned to sender. If you posted and do not see your message on BEE-L by the end of today, please sent it to BEE-L again. Thanks. The moderators :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:48:49 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Fwd: I need a solution to bee removal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have just received the request below for help with a bee nest in a house.= I know nothing more that what is in the email below, but if anyone in or= near to Fullerton (Orange County, California) thinks they can help Linda= and Bruce -- or indeed, if anyone anywhere thinks they can help -- please= contact them directly, at cheektocheek@juno.com. Thanks, Matthew *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 8/16/2003 at 5:25 PM Linda R Whitaker wrote: Hi, We live in Fullerton, California, Orange County. Our problem is a bee hive in a large post supporting the house roof= overhang in our front yard. I do not know how to remove the bees and if I= don't have to destroy them it would be the best solution. I am writing to= see if there are any beekeepers in my area with a solution to my problem.= I have had a quote of several hundred dollars to remove them but we= cannot afford this cost. Since they are located just a few feet in front= of my front door you can understand this is a major problem. We have= already had to relocate our mail box to continue delivery of our mail. Thanks for any solutions you may have for us...Linda and Bruce Whitaker *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:26:59 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers and treatments") Derek Steed said: > Your comb marking method is ingenious but I donīt really see the point. I may well be using "too strict" a scheme, but I wanted some form of schedule, and had a choice between "2 frames of 10" (a 5-year cycle), or "1 frame of 10" (a 10-year cycle). Ten years seemed "too long" if I wanted to avoid contamination problems. My rotation scheme was based upon the assumption that ANY miticide will leave residues, a point that I feel has since been proven beyond all doubt for Apistan and Check-Mite. In the case of Check-Mite, it now appears that even a 5-year cycle would not be good enough, but I refuse to use Check-Mite. > A brood comb can be quite new but "ruined" by the bees by excessive drone > cells / large holes / not sufficiently built out / off centre / mildewy > /pollen clogged etc. All true statements. Another reason I rotate comb is for other "sanitary" reasons. Let's assume that the odds are 1 in 50 for any one hive to have a very low-level foulbrood problem. If this is true, then I am certain to have foulbrood and/or spores in at least one colony. But which one? In any one year, I have a 1 in 5 chance of removing a frame with foulbrood spores. If I did not rotate old comb on a strict schedule, my chances would be much less, since I would be removing comb at "random", and some hives would not have any comb removed in some years. Another bonus is that the fact that the wax is not so old means that it is much less costly to process into an acceptable-looking bar of wax. jim (Who rotates comb on a 5-year cycle, and changes his oil every 3,000 miles under the same rationale.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:36:44 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers andtreatments") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, Referring to your reasonings for comb rotation. Presuming that your levels of AFB presence are correct, you suggest that rotation will in your case have a 1 in 5 chance of removing an "infected frame" in any one year. Do you not agree that a bee colony from which you would have removed the potentially contaminated frame would also after removal of said frame still contain 9 other potentially spore contaminated frames! i.e. what benefit would be derived by the removal of only one frame from a AFB contaminated colony? Sequential frame removal would only be useful if AFB took 5 years to reach a level that resulted in detrimental consequences on the population. Plus, if the removal of frames was undertaken sequentially as frame contamination took place. If you agree that this not to be the case - then surely random removal of frames from an AFB infected colony will have equivalent consequences and potential benefits as those of sequential frame removal. Hence that practice of removing all frames etc. from an "infected colony" and only replacing them once the hive body et al. has been well toasted with an efficient flame throwing like device. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: "Suicidal" Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I witnessed some odd behavior today. I'd just finished tending my hives = and was pulling my veil off some distance away, when I noticed a guard = bee "warning" me in my face. I backed away a bit, and she re-directed = over toward my smoker, which probably had some honey on it. She hovered = for a moment over the smoker, which was still very much lit, then dived = straight into the smoke spout! I sat there thinking about this, = wondering for a moment if she might reappear. Nope. The smoker was quite hot. I can only wonder what would cause a bee to = do this. Sugars in the smoke? Confusion? Any other guesses? Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Fwd: I need a solution to bee removal In-Reply-To: <200308180848490837.00552EA1@spineless.xerces.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 8/16/2003 at 5:25 PM Linda R Whitaker wrote: > Hi, We live in Fullerton, California, Orange County. > Our problem is a bee hive in a large post supporting the house > roof overhang in our front yard. I do not know how to remove the > bees I definitely would NOT recommend the solution tried in this news story: http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030816arrest0816p2.asp (damages estimated at $300K). I would suggest checking the Orange County beekeepers list on Yahoo for contacts: OCBees@yahoogroups.com Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:51:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: "Suicidal" Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > She hovered ... then dived straight into the smoke spout! > Any other guesses? Darkness. Same thing that attracts bees to your eyes. Aaron Morris - thinking veils for smokers? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers andtreatments") Peter said: > Do you not agree that a bee colony from which you would have removed the potentially > contaminated frame would also after removal of said frame still contain 9 other > potentially spore contaminated frames! > what benefit would be derived by the removal of only one frame from a AFB > contaminated colony? My basic assumption is that any detected AFB results some vigorous shaking followed by a small bonfire. What I was talking about was the odds of removing spores that were undetected. By definition this means a very very limited infection, perhaps with spores encapsulated by wax and/or propolis on no more than one frame. If you feel that there are holes in that rationalization through which one could drive several inconveniently large 55-foot tractor trailer trucks of beehives, so be it. I'm at least doing something, which has to be better than doing nothing. jim (Who wonders how Ebay bought PayPal... Did Ebay buy PayPal on Ebay? Did Ebay pay via PayPal? ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:48:27 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: "Suicidal" Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, Are you sure that no other individual has been using your smoker to produce other types of illicit fumes? If not, then you might have had a bee that was moving on on the evolutionary pathway - one that was investigating the possibility of preserving nectar by smoking it via. the trial and error methodology, rather than dehydration. In this case - Error! Or maybe, it realised that it was carrying a few AFB spores and wished to "do them in" If you do not consider the above possible or likely - how about it having the idea of imitating a forest fire water dumping aircraft - it just dived in to try and extinguish what it considered a potential fire hazard to the local area. Maybe, a novel hygienic behavioral trait to deposit varroa mites in a location from which re-infestation is unlikely. The possibilities are wide!!!! Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I think bees are very intelligent. For whatever reason bees prefer nectar over sugar syrup and you think bees would prefer watered down honey over sugar syrup and so do I. In my opinion this is probably because they know something that you do not. Not only that but they probably know something even the scientist do not yet know Snodgrass says this about the brain in his “Anatomy of the Honey Bee” The dorsal protocerbral lobes are broadly joined to each other, and the large optic lobes arise from the sides of the protocerbrum by narrowed stalks. The deutocerebrum consists of two pear-shaped antennal lobes freely projecting at the sides of the stomodaeum from the lower ends of the protocerbral lobes; from each there is given off a large sensory antennal nerve and smaller motor nerves to the antennal muscles. The tritocerbral region of the adult brain lies behind the deutocererbral lobes, but it is so reduced that it can be identified only the the origins of the frontal connective and the labral nerves, which issue from beneath the deutocerbral lobes. There is no free suboesophageal tritocerbral commisure in the adult bee such as that of the larva, the commisure being buried in the suboesophageal ganglion. The latter, moreover, is so closely connected withe the brain that the cirmumoesophageal connectives themselves are almost obliterated. The frontal ganglion is relatively small and its brain connectives are much longer than in the larva, but the ganglion gives off anteriorly a median frontal nerve and posteriorly a recurrent nerve that runs back on the dorsal wall of the stomodaeum. So Keith, where exactly in there do the bees do their reasoning? Is it done in the protocerbral lobes or the tritocerbral region? Perhaps the suboesophageal tritocerbral commisure? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:23:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: BEE-L Comb tracking/replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter aked Jim : "Do you not agree that a bee colony from which you = would have removed the potentially contaminated frame would also after = removal of said frame still contain 9 other potentially spore = contaminated frames! What benefit would be derived by the removal of = only one frame from a AFB contaminated colony?" >=20 Isn't it a bit like dumping ALL your clothes in the wash daily if u get = a heavy cold - but only replacing the hankie in your pocket weekly if u = have no actual illness? Yes, some endemic disease organisms remain on = the inside of your pocket (or on the other combs) so that a low level of = infection persists, but by cleaning out in rotation the main reservoirs = where germs can hide, u keep the degree of infection hopefully below the = level at which the bees' natural defences and immune system can cope. =20 One noted UK bee inspector has long recommended renewing ALL the brood = combs annually - and that is what I try to do in my Deep Long hive. It = is probably more than needed to curb the build-up of disease organisms - = bi, tri or 5 yearly would probably do as well where a colony is coping - = the main benefit comes from the large compact brood patches bees can = rear on new comb (no mouldy pollen to clear, no distorted cells where = cell bases were, no drone cells unless it is the right time of year = (when the bees will build new ones), just large unrestricted brood = circles as the queen lays away without hindrance. And the smell of the = new yeasty combs is divine. If the bees are given THICK fresh = foundation, the additional wax the bees have to secrete is minimal - and = secreting a little bit of wax is just part of growing-up for each bee.=20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:15:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Pesticide Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Folks, Jim Fisher wrote: Another bonus is that the fact that the wax is not so old means that it is much less costly to process into an acceptable-looking bar of wax. jim (Who rotates comb on a 5-year cycle, and changes his oil every 3,000 miles under the same rationale.) Jim: First things first; use synthetic oil. :-) (Oops, shouldn't have opened up that can of worms.) Actually I am writing about contaminated wax. Jim mentions that five year wax can still be rendered down and sold. In his case I somewhat agree because he is not using Check-Mite. A number of years ago I made a decision, right or wrong, to dispose of wax from the brood chamber. I did this back when Apistan was hitting the market. I just felt that the brood chamber was becoming a toxic waste dump and the few pounds of wax that could be salvaged was not worth the risk. (I mentioned this idea a few times to the list.) I realize that it is still possible to get contamination in capping wax, but that is more related to when the treatment is applied (Spring vs. Fall) and the concentration would be much less. I know others will argue that this is not necessary, however I then submit the reported presence of trace amounts of coumophos in new foundation. If much of the contaminated wax was destroyed rather than recycled, I don't think this would be happening. Just my thoughts. I would like to bring up a related point for discussion. I am not advocating misuse, just questioning some logic. After all this list is suppose to be a place for discussion. A few years ago while doing test on Apistan resistance, Dewey Caron reported that resistant colonies that were then treated with Check-Mite had the greatest level of mite kill in the first 2-3 days of application. I realize that the idea of treatment length is to get at mites that are still in brood cells when they emerge. But we all know that nothing is 100% and there will always be a few survivor mites. My thought is if the colony is not highly infested, but above levels where treatment should occur, why not use the strip for a shorter period of time killing most of the mites and knowing that there will still be some infestation, but reduced? This could be timed with a period of minimal brood production. This may work better with bees that do not constantly raise brood (sans Italian.). If you limit the amount of time the strips are in the colony, surely the contamination levels will be reduce. The exposure to the queen will also be less. I am not advocating running o! ut and doing this, I would just like to hear what others think. I keep some of my bees at the Rodale Institute. (These are the "Organic Folks".) Through their research they have shown that a pesticide applied to an orchard at a critical point in time is just as effective as spraying once every 2 weeks whether they need it or not. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:55:22 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Re: Fwd: I need a solution to bee removal Comments: To: cheektocheek@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/16/2003 at 5:25 PM Linda R Whitaker wrote: >Hi, We live in Fullerton, California, Orange County. >I am writing to see if there are any beekeepers in my area with a solution to my problem. I have >had a quote of several hundred dollars to remove them but we cannot afford this cost. Since they >are located just a few feet in front of my front door you can understand this is a major problem. --------------------- I live close to Denver so can't help you directly with your issue - but can advise you. Although beekeeping is a generous occupation I doubt you'll find some beekeeper willing to spend 4 hours on a ladder, getting sticky & taking 30+ stings as a favor to someone they aren't related or don't know as personal "close" friends. You have an issue with insects cohabitating with your house which will continue as a problem even if you have the hive killed. Bees are attracted to the smell of wax. Most beehives I remove are repeat kills from the previous year & year before, & so on, by pesticide agencies. If you have them honeybees killed you run the risk of a meltdown since the bees bring in water & fan their hive to keep it cool. Once the bees are gone the "A/C" is gone - and the hive could be easily melted if directly exposed to the sun. This time of year(Aug) the hive is at it's greatest size. That means you have more wax, brood (baby bees) & honey to remove. The stench of rotting brood killed by pesticide is something you'll remember & likely remain for a month or two. Enter the beekeeper whom can remove the entire hive. After the hive is removed you should insulate the space within 3 feet of the area to keep future swarms from looking over the wax scrapings left behind. If you were lucky enough to find a beekeeper willing to take the job you're in a good position. If you can find someone to do it for free for some odd reason - better for you but at least now you konw the details of the job and why it would be reasonable to pay for the service. Full size hives here are charged ~$300-$350 this time of year if they're on the first story. My competitor in north Denver charges $600-$800 because he has a yellow page ad. I hope you find this info useful for comparison on what you have & the options available to you. Good luck with your search. Matthew Westall - EBees - Castle Rock, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:08:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Beekeepers and treatments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Denise Hubler writes >Would you and others please expound on the system you use? I mark mine with the year (a single digit). I aim to change them every 3rd year. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:19:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: swarming and mite numbers was blank In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030810073602.00b3e488@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5.2.0.9.0.20030810073602.00b3e488@localhost>, Michael Palmer writes > First, the colony swarms. They leave the brood and most of the varroa >behind. So the swarm reduces its mite load and carries on another year. > Second, the new queen in the parent colony doesn't start to lay >until all the brood from the old queen has hatched. So? With a high mite load, this colony should show signs of viruses as soon as the brood hatches unless the (parent) colony had other tricks to keep the mite numbers down. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Moderator Subject: Virus Warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moderators have received about 10 emails today aimed at the list, each of which contained a virus. It seems that a number of our members are currently infected with viruses and may not know it. Our systems caught these infected messages, of course, and such email is never released to the list, but this blitz, from diverse addresses can be taken as a sign that internet users should be very careful to update their virus software today, and very careful about opening email with attachments. Just to show how fast things are changing currently, AVG anti virus has had three updates in the last several days. Virus protection is beyond the scope of this list (and not up for discussion). Please search Google for 'virus scan' and/or other such keys for more info. The BEE-L moderators PS: FWIW, http://housecall.antivirus.com/ and http://www.pandasoftware.com/activescan/ are free online services that have worked well for us in the past, and are a good check to see if your virus software missed something. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:31:37 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: "Suicidal" Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brought back a memory with a smile attached. I was working a hay field for a beekeeper who had his bee yard near the field gate. A bee came circling around the John Deere tractor's exhaust pipe. The tractor was at a slow idle, and between "putts" the bee dove down the pipe. Came flying back out much faster at the next "putt," much the worse for the experience. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:45:45 +0200 Reply-To: apimo@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers and treatments") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Another bonus is that the fact that the wax is not so old means that > it is much less costly to process into an acceptable-looking bar of wax. It might seem weird to some of you, but I renew my wax every second Year! It means a whole box of wax is replaced with new foundation every year! I winter on two full Langstroth. In spring when the bees has gone up in second super I remove the button super and place a honey comb super on top. Between I have a piece of newspaper so that the bees will keep warm, and take the upper super in use when needed. The reason for this, that I have used from erly start in my beekeeping, is that I get reed of diseases, bad build combs and so on very quickly. I have never had AFB, and am not treating with anything but formic, lactic and oxalic acid Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software now with English, Spanish, Czech, Russian, Italian, Dutch, French and Danish language support. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:14:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick & All, > So Keith, where exactly in there do the bees do their reasoning? Is it done > in the protocerbral lobes or the tritocerbral region? Perhaps the > suboesophageal tritocerbral commisure? > Who cares where they get their reasoning, As long as they do is good enough for me. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:30:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have bees in the back yard that was getting water from a plastic container in the yard in the spring. As of lately (for the last month or so), they have not been getting water from the bowl. I kept fresh water for them. I have a yard about 5 miles from my house that the bees were getting water from a pan at the faucet. Last week the man there asked me why they had stopped watering there. I said I would pose the question to the BEE-L. Why are the bees not watering at the same place? I don't think they have found other sources. Lionel, North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The recent discussions on small cell hives got me to thinking about = their application in top bar hives. Based on Dee Lusby's observations, = it would seem that bees will not naturally draw small cell comb in a top = bar hive (no foundation) unless the bees themselves are smaller (a trait = largely bred out of bees 100 years or so ago). =20 Are there any known strains/races which are naturally smaller and = produce smaller cell sizes? Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:43:44 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Pesticide Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, As you say - 100% kill of Varroa mites by methods accepted is not realistic. Your logic is to kill those that are "in the open" - therefore reducing the period of time that a pesticide is being applied in the hive environment. This then possibly resulting in the amount of material being transferred into the wax medium. Several points: 1. Is the transfer of active material into wax a steady constant, or is a disproportionate amount transferred during the first few days/week a strip is in the hive? 2. Varroa mite kill: What is the proportion of mites outside the brood and open to pesticide contact compared to those being protected by being in a sealed cell environment? It may be interesting to see that for example, 99% of these outside mites drop - but if a high proportion are left, having been shielded in the cells, these then may raise the viable population above a threshold value very quickly after having emerged. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:47:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd asked: Are there any known strains/races which are naturally smaller and produce smaller cell sizes? Apis florea builds the smallest cells of honey bees ( 1375 cells/decimeter),Apis cerana the second smallest ( 1243 cells/ decimeter) and then apis scutellata m.( 1000 cells/ decimeter). Apis cerana and Apis mellifera are two species of bees which are closely related to each other but can not cross. Quite a bit of honey is produced by cerana bees in China in modern hives. Over a million hives I have been told. I once suggested an introduction of cerana might be an answer to our varroa problem years ago on BEE-L but my idea was put down by all! If a smaller bee is better 49'ers why not cerana? Cerana was the original (and still is ) host of varroa but they get along quite nicely as varroa NEVER has been known to reproduce in cerana worker brood for unknown reasons. I must remind the list! We really do not know why varroa also prefers drone brood. Cell size has been presented as a reason for years but a difference in juvenile growth hormone could just as easily be the reason or a yet undiscovered reason. We still have got many questions to be answered about varroa. Remember the story I told years ago on BEE-L of being shown a oblong varroa under a microscope years ago by our state bee inspector ( Missouri State Beekeepers meeting in the late 1980's)and asking why the varroa on the slide was not round like the picture in the book of varroa j.. I still remember the look on the bee inspectors face like "must you question everything ?" "Beltsville sent me this here varroa sample so it must be a varroa j. regardless if it looks like the picture or not!" was the reply. I actually found a front and back varroa picture later one winter night reading old American Bee Journals of varroa j. & the other a varroa d.. Missouri beekeepers reading this post remember my pointing out the difference in the varroa on the slide and the picture in the book and also my showing the ABJ pictures of varroa at a later meeting.. Bob "What we do not know is so vast that it makes what we do know seem absurd" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:28:50 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Pesticide Use Ron Bogansky said: > Dewey Caron reported that resistant colonies that were then treated > with Check-Mite had the greatest level of mite kill in the first 2-3 > days of application. I realize that the idea of treatment length is > to get at mites that are still in brood cells when they emerge. > why not use the strip for a shorter period of time killing most of > the mites and knowing that there will still be some infestation, > but reduced? This could be timed with a period of minimal brood > production. Once one starts doing things like making up one's own pesticide label instructions, where does it all end? If beekeepers want to chant "the label is the law" in regard to pesticide use by growers, they should not consider "getting creative" themselves. The chant is a good one, and the moral high ground behind it has yet to have been questioned. In studies, it is quite common to do a "24 hour" Apistan test as a "standard" way of estimating mite populations. In some cases, this is done as often as weekly. As a result, there should be a good data set to prove that these "24 hour tests" were never effective in themselves at controlling varroa. If they were effective, the act of counting mites in control (untreated) colonies would eliminate so many mites that one's control colonies would no longer be "controls". I wonder if there is anyone doing similar "24-hour tests" using Check-Mite. If there is, this may be a hint as to how effective a short-term application of miticide might be. And I'm not going to even try to think about how many 48-hour uses of any one miticide strip would equal one "use" of a strip, but I don't think anyone could resist trying to use them in more than one hive for this sort of "short-term use". I've also yet to see a "buy one, get one free" promotion on any miticide. jim ("Buy one, get one free?" - Yeah, sure - I've yet to receive my "Free Nelson Mandela"!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:53:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: water MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lionel, >Last week the man there asked me why they had stopped >watering there. I said I would pose the question to the BEE-L. > The answer may not be the same for you, but . . . My bees will stop collecting water as soon as a nectar flow starts. It would appear that they suddenly have all the water they could want. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:22:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Said: > Apis florea builds the smallest cells of honey bees ( 1375 > cells/decimeter),Apis cerana the second smallest ( 1243 cells/ decimeter) > and then apis scutellata m.( 1000 cells/ decimeter). > > Quite a bit of honey is produced by cerana bees in China in modern hives. > Over a million hives I have been told. > > I once suggested an introduction of cerana might be an answer to our varroa > problem years ago on BEE-L but my idea was put down by all! > > If a smaller bee is better 49'ers why not cerana? > I was aware of A. Cerana, but had always been told it was an "inferior" producer. After a couple of hours of 'net research, I found a wealth of info on Cerana which may explain why it gets dissed by Westerners: They seem to be highly variable, with the high altitude sub-species (Kashmiri strain) being far better producers (very comparable to A. Mellifera) than their lower altitude counterparts. The higher productivity is accompanied by higher aggression (though this doesn't appear to be excessive). This variability extends to docility on the comb, and swarming/absconding tendencies. One trait that would not be favorable in Langstroths is their hive organization. It seems that they tend to mix brood, pollen, and honey on the same comb, although that may be a first year mechanism only. On the positive side, they seem to be quite resistant to all major pests and disease, although foulbrood has become something of an issue in some regions. They need little care, and are well suited to Indian/Chinese methods of apiculture - often "leave alone" beekeeping. So now I'm wondering - How does one legally obtain some A. Cerana to experiment with? Since the Kashmiri strain seems far superior to all others, it would probably be best to find a direct source in India. Is there any way a humble hobby beekeeper can do this? Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:54:37 -0400 Reply-To: alneedham@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Albert Needham Subject: Honey Bee Freeware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I am unsure if this will get on the list but here goes ... For many years I had a web site called "The BeeHive" on my former ISP xensei.com. I gave up that ISP and now have essentially the same site on its own domain under a different name... www.bees-online.com The goal of this new site remains the same - to educate the public about the benefits of Honey Bees and to encourage people to take up Beekeeping. The site offers three freeware programs for downloading designed by myself as follows: Educational and Fun Freeware for downloading Compliments of "Bees-Online" "About Honey Bees" This is probably the only " free educational electronic book " about Honey Bees that is available on the Internet. Nicely illustrated with close-up photos. It will tell you all about honey bees, who lives in the beehive and what their duties are, what the hive is made of and looks like inside, what swarming is about, and much more. Great learning tool for adults and children. This is a self executable Windows Program. Does "not require" a special reader program. This e-book is new as of June 12,2003. ( 2.36MB ) Also available in a zip format. ( 2.0MB ) "Worker Bees Jig Saw Puzzle" Check it out and see how fast you can solve it. Fun for kids and adults. ( 346 KB ) "BeesOnline Screensaver" A Screensaver featuring ten beautiful close-up photographs of Honey Bees at work inside and outside of the beehive. The photographs used are compliments of P-O Gustafsson, a Swedish Beekeeper and superb photographer. (1.42MB ) In my opinion the e-book is great for circulating to promote the cause of Honey Bees and Beekeeping. Thanks for your consideration. Regards, Al Needham Learn About Honey Bees Visit: www.bees-online.com alneedham@earthlink.net Regards, Al Needham Learn About Honey Bees Visit: www.bees-online.com alneedham@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:47:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just been sent this query off-list . As it is an interesting = subject, lets start another thread.=20 "You just mentioned using THICK foundation in the U.K., do you have the dimensions and weight per sheet? Do you utilise embossed (i.e. with hexagonal cell formations), or flat blank foundation? Do you make your = own foundation from cappings and/or old comb? I may be too curious for my = own good, but I'm always looking to experiment with new ideas for additional success." Foundation is produced in UK to fit all four ranges of frames in current = use, with 3 depths in each range - so 12 sizes of sheet. UK beekeeping = is a hobby pursuit! The largest suppliers no doubt use state-of-the art machines that fuse = together 3 separate plies of (now a days) pure beeswax to produce a = sheet that is less liable to sag when warmed within the brood nest. I = say, trustingly, that foundation now has no contamination from vegetable = waxes as it did when 3-ply founds was first invented by Root in 1923. = However, wax recovered from older brood combs still seems to contain = some transparent component that sinks to the bottom when wax is melted = into water - which I have not noticed when the wax comes only from = cappings. Perhaps someone has information here?=20 I personally prefer to buy from small suppliers who make small batches - = it suits my romantic notions of a cottage industry. One advantage (which = I have not yet used myself) is that the machines are so small that an = association can supply its own residue-free wax for conversion to their = own foundation - the wax left over in the sump are returned for candle = making.=20 You could also, presumably specify your own thickness, as the machines = must be adjustable within limits - but the stuff on offer works fine. U = get 5 sheets 14inches by 12 inches per pound.=20 UK foundation is offered pre-wired, diagonally top to bottom. This = minimises sag when warmed - but it does still happen to an extent. The = problem is caused by forcing bees to draw out complete sheets comb base, = which means they tend to work the two sides unevenly. In nature, a new = comb emerges from the centre of a wax-making cluster - the comb-base or = midrib is extended downwards with the cells on the two sides being = completed at the same time. Perhaps we should chop connecting holes = through the foundation to help the cluster form both sides of the = foundation/midrib, and accept the irregularities and drone cells that = would feature in the finished comb - has anyone tried that?=20 The rationale for supplying foundation is that it speeds comb building = and the combs are artificially flat and uniform - 'down with Nature', we = say. Bee biology however seems to include bees making some wax as they = go through a particular age - so trying to save ALL comb building may = not be economic. A growing practice in UK is to put merely strips of = foundation in spring supers in oil-seed rape (canola) areas - leaving = the bees to build down. When the supers are removed (perhaps in autumn, = to ensure the bees have had adequate exposure to natural stores all = summer), any spring honey remaining is treated as the true surplus and = the new clean combs are melted at the beekeepers convenience during = winter and re-waxed for spring (we do not yet have SHB, which will force = immediate extracting of removed supers). Playing with wax can be great fun - it appeals to children aged about 10 = to 13 at the school where I teach beekeeping and also to all children = aged 50+. The feel, the plasticity, the aroma (provided the wax does not = get to hot). Having a go at making your own foundation (from = un-contaminated wax) is definitely to be recommended. There are many = ways:=20 1.. Pour resin onto a sheet of bought foundation to make a pair of = plates embossed with the cell bases. Pour liquid wax onto a wetted = wooden tray to get a sheet of plain wax. Emboss the sheet by placing it = between the tow resin sheets and pressing with a rolling pin - better an = old clothes mangle. Use lots of soapy water to stop wax sticking to the = moulds. 2.. Put a sheet of bought foundation in a tray and pour on plaster of = paris. Turn over and coa the other side. Hinge the two trays together as = a book. Separate and remove the bought foundation. Soak the whole mould = in soapy water. Pour liquid wax onto one side of the mould and close the = other side on top. Open and remove your casting of an embossed sheet. = (This foundation is softer than the rolled as it misses out the = tempering due to applying pressure). 3.. Alternatively, you can just use unembossed flat sheets - the = resultant combs are anything but uniform. But lovely.=20 For those who do not feel up to making a mould at home, UK suppliers = sell a stainless steel book mould fitted with silicone rubber face = moulds - for 258GBP (350 times the cost of a single medium sheet of = bought foundation at 0.80 GBP) . Or a set of embossed rollers for = 740GBP. Hardly economic. If you swop your own wax, the cost of a single = medium sheet drops to 0.20 GBP and if you first buy bulk wax from = beekeepers to trade in, the final all-in cost is about .40 GBP for per = medium sheet of professionally made all-wax foundation.=20 Home made sheets are too soft for serious beekeeping - so many ways of = strengthening have been tried. H H Root listed 16 in an 1922 article in = Gleanings: aluminimum, resin, bristol board, cardboard, cellophane, = celluloid, cloth, hard fibre, metal foil, mineral wax, paper, tin, = vegetable wax, wood veneer, zinc. A member of my association regularly = uses computer print-out paper or newspaper - but it has never worked for = me ( I find the bees just chew the wax off, then throw out the paper). The chief strengthener today (apart from embedded wires) is of course to = replace the mid-rib completely with embossed plastic. No doubt further = trials will be made with complete cells of plastic. Being an old fogey, = I remain deeply suspicious. There is the issue that the bees do not = readily work plastic foundation and have to be forced onto it by = creating an artificial flow through feeding sugar - some of which will = end up in supers as 'sugar-honey'. But their is also the biological = issues. Humans could wear plastic clothing - they would wash easier and = dry quicker. But we don't, because the microenvironment between our = skins and the plastic (hot, humid, sweaty) would favour bacteria and = other nasties. What happens when a bee enters a (part) plastic cell and = stays there for weeks within the winter cluster? Bees also 'sweat' water = through their exteriors (I know it is not the same as human sweat but = still). Some will be quick to rubbish any suggestion (I am getting to = know this list!) that bees have not been waiting for 92 million years = for the genius of man to provide them with plastic foundation - but has = anyone actually explored the effects of plastic on the micro-environment = within the cell?=20 Anyway, do have a go at making your own pure beeswax foundation. You = have nothing to lose except a lot of time! Wax is conveniently melted = within a plastic jug inserted in an electric slow-cooker (put a little = water in the cooker to increase heat transfer). Then u get no mess all = over the stove. Spouses can be surprisingly discouraging towards = flights of the imagination - or attempts to recreate the path of history = for ourselves. =20 Robin Dartington .=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:03:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Pesticide Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Bogansky said:" Dewey Caron reported that resistant colonies that were then treated > with Check-Mite had the greatest level of mite kill in the first 2-3 > days of application. I realize that the idea of treatment length is > to get at mites that are still in brood cells when they emerge. > why not use the strip for a shorter period of time killing most of > the mites and knowing that there will still be some infestation, > but reduced? This could be timed with a period of minimal brood > production". There seem to be 2 points to remember: 1 In his classic study in 1987, Ritter split colonies into an artificial swarm and a parent. He found 47-92 mites in the swarms and 2500 to 2900 mites in the old brod nests. So killing out phoretic mites at a time when there is any sealed brood would be very ineffecive. 2 When I apply miticides are applied to artificial swarms (part of my standard method for managing my Long Deep hives) the drop does virtually cease after 3 days. The strips could come out, but I leave them for 3 weeks before transfering them to the (queenless) 'parent ' end of the hive, where all the sealed brood has now emerged. This is against the manufactuer's guidance to leave in for 6 weeks and makes me uneasy. The standard guidance assumes a colony with brood. I have tried to get guidance from Vita and from DEFRA on how strips should be used with broodless swarms but no deal. The additional testing is not worthwhile - so we are on our own. The point to consider is that while +% of mites will drop early, it is those who have developed some degree of resistance (maybe a thicker cuticle) that get only a sub-lethal dose. Given longer exposure , they might drop. So shortening the exposure time, even though mite drop has ceased, may accelerate the development of resitance. If however resistance has already been developed due to groos abuse by only one beekeeper (as in UK) and the spread of fully resistant mites in inevitable, is there any point in still being so careful? I frankly do not know - but to use 2 sets of strips for a divided hive would certainly double the price. Jim has asked: "Once one starts doing things like making up one's own pesticide label instructions, where does it all end?" Unhappily, we can guess, based on experience of everyone dreaming up their own varooa poisons without sufficent knowledge of biology. Dead colonies, contamination of comb, a growing reputation for beekeepers as a dangerous lot of idiots. Manufacturers have been required to test their products fully - we can expect to get the claimed results. only if we use products in accordance with instructions. The problem arises however if the instructions don't apply to the particular circumstances. What if the label says: apply a splint before binding up the wound - and u are in the midst of a desert of sand? Difficult one. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:15:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd asked: So now I'm wondering - How does one legally obtain some A. Cerana to experiment with? Not any way I know of. The issue was discused by the USDA several times and rejected. Todd asked: Is there any way a humble hobby beekeeper can do this? Cerana are non native. Bringing in illegal would cause you steep fines. A simple glance into a hive would alert the bee inspector. You could lobby for the introduction but doubt you would have success as now we have got other solutions for varroa in place. At least one other beekeeper looked at the issue with an open mind ( Todd) and saw cerana as an option besides me and a few friends. Several of my friends went on the China beekeeping tour and saw cerana as an option but almost impossible to sell the USDA on because of non native species. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:48:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Todd and Everyone, >Are there any known strains/races which are naturally smaller and = produce smaller cell sizes? The african races tend to be smaller and produce a smaller cell size. But honeybees bees produce a range of cell sizes. Their broodnest is organized and cell size is a very important component of the structure. I have placed small cell hive bees in a top bar hive and they initially drew out large cell sized comb. Six weeks later the bees that were raised in the large cell comb starting drawing out small cell size comb in the bottom portions of the broodnest during a major honey flow. Larger cell sizes were drawn at the top and exterior portions of the broodnest. I have measured the percentages of the different sized cells and the details can be found toward the bottom of www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/obs2.htm My conclusions regarding cell size have not made me very popular with some of the small cell folks. But my observations indicate that a special small cell bee is not needed. These bees were New World Carniolans from Strachan. Carniolans have been historically classified as a larger bee. I have used just about every type of bee from every major supplier in the US and they have performed equally well on small cell comb. The bees that were in my top bar hive experiment are now in a large cell hive. Next spring I will place them back in a top bar hive and watch what happens. I also plan on placing another race of small cell bees in a top bar hive. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Before this blows out of proportion (again), my recollection was there were some VERY good reasons (far beyond legalities) why Apis c. is a bad idea posted by some knowledgable contributors (Blane? Jim Bach?) when the discussion took place more than a few years back. I seem to recall that even Bob (who seems to be attempting to raise a dead horse) backed off his original position that importing Apis c. would be a good idea. I have not had the time to peruse the archives (and doubt I will for at least a while longer), but before this old topic starts up full boar I encourage folks to check the archives first! BEE-L archives are a valuable tool and can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris - thinking everything old is new again! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:05:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Cerana are non native. Bringing in illegal would cause you steep fines. A > simple glance into a hive would alert the bee inspector. > > At least one other beekeeper looked at the issue with an open mind ( Todd) > and saw cerana as an option besides me and a few friends. > > Several of my friends went on the China beekeeping tour and saw cerana as an > option but almost impossible to sell the USDA on because of non native > species. > > Bob > Just thinking out loud here. Since A. Mellifera is the baseline for comparison, I wonder how A. Mellifera ever came to be considered a "native" species? Also, what additional threats (disease, parasites, displacement of native species, etc.) could A. Cerana really pose? They seem to occupy the same niche as A. Mellifera, so it would seem that the worst that could happen is a resurgance of naturalized (mite & disease resistant) honey bees - a situation which used to be the norm, and is now looked upon with nostalgia. Lastly, I wonder if it could be argued that not allowing A. Cerana use may be placing U.S. beekeepers at an economic disadvantage relative to Asia? (a long shot, I grant you...) Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D1A7D@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Before this blows out of proportion (again), my recollection was there were > some VERY good reasons (far beyond legalities) why Apis c. is a bad idea > posted by some knowledgeable contributors (Blane? Jim Bach?) when the > discussion took place more than a few years back. One thing that was discussed back then was that Varroa J was the mite and even Apis M could deal with it. It was also noted that Apis M and Apis C were close to each other in the Far East so they both were able to deal with Varroa. So why bring Apis C when we have Apis M which has the same tolerance? Russian bees anyone? If I recall we are also talking not just about different Varroa but also about different variants of Apis C. One post from back then was about a variant of Varroa J which could not survive on Apis M! So it is not as clear cut as it seems. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:26:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd said: Since A. Mellifera is the baseline for comparison, I wonder how A. Mellifera ever came to be considered a "native" species? Although really non native after all these year mellifera is considered as *native* by the powers that be and helped along by the fact our borders have been closed since the 20's to imports. Todd asked: Also, what additional threats (disease, parasites, displacement of native species, etc.) could A. Cerana really pose? I doubt any if the introduction was carefully done like with the Russian queens. Cerana would have been off the coast of Baton Rouge instead of the Russian bee and went through the same selection process by Tom R. as the Russian bee was. Todd said: They seem to occupy the same niche as A. Mellifera, so it would seem that the worst that could happen is a resurgance of naturalized (mite & disease resistant) honey bees - a situation which used to be the norm, and is now looked upon with nostalgia. My thinking exactly but what does a lowly beekeeper know? Lastly, I wonder if it could be argued that not allowing A. Cerana use may be placing U.S. beekeepers at an economic disadvantage relative to Asia? (a long shot, I grant you...) Adjusting to change is the way the professional beekeeper survives. In my opinion there were better choices among the million cerana hives kept for commercial honey production than there were in Russia with Russian queens . It will be awhile before I see if my new Russian bees can survive varroa untreated as I only received the queens a few months ago. I doubt that they will but will keep an open mind. All Dr. shiminuki would say about the Russian imports is that they would be better able to cope with varroa than our current strains. Never has the USDA said to me the Russian bee would be able to survive untreated forever. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron said; Before this blows out of proportion (again), my recollection was there were some VERY good reasons (far beyond legalities) why Apis c. is a bad idea posted by some knowledgable contributors (Blane? Jim Bach?) when the discussion took place more than a few years back. My point back then to Dr. Shiminuki (then head of Beltsville) was that would not a race of cerana which has been shown to mirror our best mellifera (they are available) have been a better choice than the Russian bee. Privately many agreed but said getting even an import of Russian bees would be a challenge let alone cerana. Today I am happy with my Russian bees I received but they do take a little getting used to after years of Italians. The Russian bees never stop amazing me. I pulled a yard of honey supers before 8 am this morning as the temperature today is 105 F. and breaks the record held from the dust bowl days. I was amazed how the Russian queens had slowed laying to conserve the avilable honey in storage. The Italian hives were still raising brood full bore and had used up a whole super of honey. Could the Italians still raising brood be a sign rain is on the way kind of like the wooly worm predicts a cold winter? Hmmm. I believe we are in now the worst drought I have ever seen in our area with no end in sight. Aaron said: I seem to recall that even Bob (who seems to be attempting to raise a dead horse) backed off his original position that importing Apis c. would be a good idea. After the USDA decided to import from Russian stock I dropped the idea. I also dropped my idea of stopping AHB dead in its tracks on the advance from Brazil after the idea was not accepted by the powers that bee. Both were in my opinion better plans than the plans chosen by the USDA. I do not see the cerana need now as we have got bees with the SMR trait and Russian bees . Several new varroa control methods are working the way to the beekeepers (Sucrose Octanote Esters and Api Life Var). The hobby beekeeper should be able with the tools available to survive varroa. but beekeeping will get harder and hobby beekeepers will again need to pay close attention to their hives to avoid losses. On the other hand when checkmite & Apistan fails to provide control the larger beekeeper is going to experience trouble. I predict the main problems will come a couple years from now when varroa infestation caused by checkmite resistant and apistan resistant varroa reach high levels in fall and none of the controls available will save a hive reaching threshold (like the strips did) or are simply to labor intensive to treat with when dealing with thousands of varroa infested hives. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:18:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains In-Reply-To: <001201c36750$efe7db20$44a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > > It will be awhile before I see if my new Russian bees can survive varroa > untreated as I only received the queens a few months ago. I doubt that they > will but will keep an open mind. If they are in a Yard by them selves they will do just fine, if in a yard with other than russian bees your results will varry from fair to bad. Charlie Harper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:48:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Menthol and top feeder tank on a new BeeMax hive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one BeeMax (foam) open bottom hive that was started new this Spring with Carniolan bees. My plan, for this year, is to concentrate on getting the bees to produce as much drawn comb as possible (up to 5 supers worth). So far I've got two hive bodies and two supers and a feeder stacked up. I've been following the advice I read on George's Pink Pages: feeding the bees continuously with sugar water, which I put in a top tank feeder made of plastic foam. The top feeder is just about empty and I plan to take it off on Saturday and clean out the black mold that has formed. I understand that this is the time of year when I should put a packet of menthol in the top of hive to prevent tracheal mites. My question: can I put the filled tank feeder on top of the menthol packet? (Toward the opposite side of the hive from the slot in the feeder where the bees access the sugar water.) Will the menthol vapors cause the bees to avoid the sugar water? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:49:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains Bob asked: > The Italian hives were still raising brood full bore and had used up a whole > super of honey. Could the Italians still raising brood be a sign rain is on > the way kind of like the wooly worm predicts a cold winter? Never heard of wooly (should that be woolly? the mind boggles!) worms, but Italians in the UK keep raising brood no matter what the weather and require vast amounts of winter stores compared to our native dark bees (perhaps 60lbs against 20lbs). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:23:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: but Italians in the UK keep raising brood no matter what the weather and require vast amounts of winter stores compared to our native dark bees (perhaps 60lbs against 20lbs). They do likewise in the U.S.. The woolly worm is a small worm with brown to black markimgs by which the old timers predict the coming winter from but of cource the shape of the inside of the persimmion seed helps with their prediction (knife, spoon or fork shape). I personnaly find the weather as unpredictable. If the weather happens to be like they predicted then they brag. If the weather is the opposite they simply change the subject. An old timer said yesterday while buying honey that the last time the catidids (spelling?) were singing this time of year at night we had a severe winter. The weather is a subject always talked about by country people. Never are they happy as it is always too dry or too hot or we need rain or we don't need rain. Whatever I say is never right (according to the old timers) so I only listen to the predictions. Like the weatherman on the news the locals are right about 50% of the time on their predictions. I have never been able to predict the coming winter by things the bees are doing. Can others? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:08:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Dennis said... > New World Carniolans from Strachan. > Carniolans have been historically classified as a larger bee. I hope that by using the two statements close together that you are not implying that NWC are a 'larger bee'. I have every respect for the NWC and their originator, but they do not occupy the same range of cell sizes that the European Carniolans do. The work I am doing is far from complete, but early indications are that there is a difference of 0.2 mm - 0.3 mm in the average cellsize of the two strains... with the NWC being the smaller. 0.2 mm - 0.3 mm may be a small difference to those that are used to measuring in inches, but it is a 'significant difference' when applied to the size of a cell. Those that have not yet looked at the work Dennis is doing can see it on... http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/obs2.htm We need more beekeeper with the time and dedication to do work like Dennis is doing. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:41:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Robin Dartington raises some questions about foundation... > 1.. Pour resin onto a sheet of bought foundation http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/fondpresses.html > Pour liquid wax onto a wetted wooden tray to get a sheet of plain wax. > Emboss the sheet by placing it between the two resin sheets and > pressing with a rolling pin - better an old clothes mangle http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/herring.html > For those who do not feel up to making a mould at home, UK suppliers > sell a stainless steel book mould fitted with silicone rubber face moulds Watch out for the cellsize of the pattern on the plates! There is no such thing as a universal 'worker cellsize'. > Or a set of embossed rollers These can be obtained in various cellsizes as well, the link below is for intentionally small sizes, but most of the mill manufacturers make other sizes as well. http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/smallcell.htm > Anyway, do have a go at making your own pure beeswax foundation. > You have nothing to lose except a lot of time! Wax is conveniently > melted within a plastic jug inserted in an electric slow-cooker (put a little > water in the cooker to increase heat transfer). Then u get no mess all > over the stove. Spouses can be surprisingly discouraging towards flights > of the imagination I agree here, it is good fun.... I have made thousands of sheets myself and enjoyed the process. There are a number of pages about wax and foundation that are listed on the link below. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/foundcomb.html Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Woolly Worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote, "Never heard of wooly (should that be woolly? the mind boggles!) worms" Looked it up in the dictionary. Either spelling Wooly or Woolly acceptable in the USA. Listed under "Woolly Bear: any of various rather large very hairy moth caterpillars; especially: one of a tiger moth. Black and tan in bands. The width of the band is supposed to indicate the severity of the winter, according to folklore. Leland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:37:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lionel Evans asked: " Why are the bees not watering at the same place? I don't think they have > found other sources." > > Bees collect water only when they need to - they just stop at other times, not switch sources. They need water for only two purposes: 1 to dilute stored honey down to the 50:50 mix they keep in their stomachs for metabolizing energy; 2 to cool the hive by evaporation. Bees need water most in spring when using stores fast to build up the brood nest. Rearing each grib needs about 140mg of honey - diluting that down from 80:20 to 50:50 needs ?...u work it out and multiply by the number of grubs in the nest. Colonies use up a lot of water. In a not-hot summer bees get all water needed from nectar which often has less tha 50:50 concentration of sugars and so has to have water reduced not added. In autumn, nectar flow stops and bees go back to using stored honey - and back to collecting water. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the information describing making one's own wax foundation, release agents on the boards such as detergent are mentioned. Is there a rinsing process needed after the sheets are made? I would think that detergent or soap would be toxic to the bees. Do these chemicals rinse off easily and cleanly? Layne Westover College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:08:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are a number of pages about wax and foundation that are listed on the > link below... Also, there are some pictures of Dee Lusby making wax foundation at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary011002.htm Although, I assume it is general knowledge, Maybe I should mention that Ed Lusby had a stroke and a bad fall earlier this summer. He is currently convalescing under Dee's care. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:17:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison said: "> I do not see the cerana need now as we have got bees with the SMR trait and > Russian bees . Several new varroa control methods are working the way to the > beekeepers (Sucrose Octanote Esters and Api Life Var). > On the other hand when checkmite & Apistan fails to provide control the > larger beekeeper is going to experience trouble. I predict the main problems > will come a couple years from now when varroa infestation caused by > checkmite resistant and apistan resistant varroa reach high levels in fall > and none of the controls available will save a hive reaching threshold > (like the strips did) or are simply to labor intensive to treat with when > dealing with thousands of varroa infested hives." > > The prediction of trouble comes from all the controls mentioned are still 'single bullets' - needing repeated applications which are so time consuming - and which if overlooked, leave the clony open to disaster. Bees have survived pests and parasites for millions of years because pest and host developed a balanced relationship - vaooa is such a problem because man forced the pace by moving colonies and allowing a sudden jump across the species , not gradual introduction. So Russian bees sound so interesting - we know nothing of them in UK I think - an early post in the archive indicated they came from the far east , presumably from an area that borders A cerana and so they have had the opportunity to develop a balanced relationship with varooa over a long time. A problem presumably will be keeping the strain pure? Constant re-queening - as hybrids will not be so good from what other posts are saying. Another way to get back to a balanced relaionship is still under development at Rothamstaed, but not mentioned by Bob - introducing a self-sustaining, mite-killing fungus into the hive environment . Fungus were known to kill mites and Rothamstead has found several types effective against varooa. Once a suitable fungus is introduced (one that does not produce unwanted side effects), hopefully mites would never rise above a sub-clinical level - and (evolution theory tells us) as fast as varooa evolve resistance to the fungus so would the fungus evolve new virulence to mites, ijn a way single chemicals cannot do. Did Bob consciously not include fungus as a way forward into the future beause he knows more than I have heard? Or is Rothamstead just keeping very quiet until its tests are over? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:25:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Layne is concened about release agent residues, when making foundation. To be frank, I have never considered this, but the bees certainly do not mind. I have never rinsed any that I have made, but I only use enough detergent (washing up liquid in UK) just to make the release agent silky when fingers and thumb are rubbed together. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:26:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Layne, . Is there a rinsing > process needed > after the sheets are made? reply: No. I would think that detergent or soap would > be toxic > to the bees. I use the same methods as the Lusby's. No rinsing is needed. When I choose a dish detergent I look for ones that are biodegrageable such as the brand Joy. I have never found that the release agent hurts the bees in any way. I use a squirt of dish detergent in about a 1/2 gallon of water, a little goes along way. Much of this is absorbed by the paper that seperates the sheets of foundation when stacked. Clay, NY Clay's Bee Page- http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:51:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I rather forgot the most important point about home-made foundation when starting the thread. That is that fresh thick soft sheets are so easily drawn out into combs by the bees. The bottoms of cells with a thick midrib is are pared down by the bees who then use the wax to construct the walls. (They cannot do that with plastic foundation). So it is quick and not exhausting for the bees even if (as is ideal) there is a flow on. Comb builders are younger than foragers so I assume myself no bees are diverted from foraging to build out comb. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:54:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation Can I add one tip about making foundation using a wax-press? The plates of the press need to be wetted with a 'release fluid' and formulae for this usually use washing-up liquid (or detergent). However, this tend to create bubbles. I have found that rinse-aid for dishwashers is far superior as it is designed to eliminate foaming. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <004601c36823$43dff280$0b8fbc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:51 PM 8/21/2003 +0100, you wrote: >The bottoms of cells with a thick midrib >is are pared down by the bees who then use the wax to construct the walls. >(They cannot do that with plastic foundation). You can do this with plastic. I've painted plastic foundation with wax using a foam brush and it tends to build up the midrib and the bees use it to construct the walls. The seem to build it up faster than the normal wax coated plastic, but I haven't run any scientific tests. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::