From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:32 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140E148FD1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdS011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0308D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 139905 Lines: 3143 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:41:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Said: > Bees > have survived pests and parasites for millions of years because pest and > host developed a balanced relationship - vaooa is such a problem because man > forced the pace by moving colonies and allowing a sudden jump across the > species , not gradual introduction. Given the pace at which A. Mellifera has succumbed to varroa, it would appear that any, even "gradual" introduction, would still have been catastrophic. Has anyone found any A.M. colonies that are truly mite resistant? Apparently A. Cerana has some very specialized behavior that allow it to deal with varroa. Workers pierce the cappings of drone cells, "inspecting" them for varroa contamination, discarding those infected. Other varroa related mechanisms also seem to be in place, allowing A.C. workers to communicate in ways A.M. cannot. > So Russian bees sound so interesting - > we know nothing of them in UK I think - an early post in the archive > indicated they came from the far east , presumably from an area that borders > A cerana and so they have had the opportunity to develop a balanced > relationship with varooa over a long time. We should remember that the fossil record is chock full of extinct species which failed, due to a number of possible causes. Time alone is not necessarily a guarantee of success for a given species. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:42:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick referred us to pictures of Dee Lusby making wax foundation at > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary011002.htm > > These are well worth a look. It shows a home-based production line and suggests a lot of sheets can be made in a session once u have set up. One query - apparently the flat sheets are put in a black sack before being put thru the rollers. Does this mean every sheet has plastic both sides while being emossed? Is that to avoid wax getting on the rollers? Has it been found difficult to avoid wax sticking just by pouring lots of relaese agent over the rollers? Does the plastic blur the sharpness of the embryo cell walls? Could someone please clarify. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:04:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Tim Arheit: " I've painted plastic foundation with wax > using a foam brush and it tends to build up the midrib and the bees use it > to construct the walls. The seem to build it up faster than the normal wax > coated plastic, but I haven't run any scientific tests". > > Thanks for that one - for the first time I feel tempted to try out the sample plastic foundation I have had for years, in supers only. Presumably the method cuts out the need to flood the colony with sugar syrup to force it onto the plastic , which is the practice that makes me worry about the purity of the final honey. Can Tim confirm that is right? Robin Dartington > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:31:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Healthcare of bees Keith Malone said: > ...I think bees are very intelligent... and Dick Allen said: > So Keith, where exactly in there do the bees do their > reasoning? Is it done in the protocerbral lobes or the > tritocerbral region? Perhaps the suboesophageal > tritocerbral commisure? Don't be so quick to grin about "bees reasoning". They appear to be MUCH smarter than one might expect, at least as applied to figuring out how to bring home the groceries. No, I am >>NOT<< anthropomorphizing bees in the least! Back in April of 2001, the journal NATURE reported on a study that demonstrated that bees do have "higher cognitive functions". In short, bees do well at cognitive tests one would perform on lab primates and undergraduate student human volunteers. (It is often hard to tell the difference between undergrads and the other primates found in research labs, but I digress.) Using mazes, they marked the path to a dish of "nectar" with one color and the path to empty feeder dishes with another color. The color at the entrance to the maze was a "sign" that told the bees which color to follow within the maze to get the nectar. They also used vertical versus horizontal lines in the mazes. Bees trained to play the "color" game could win the "lines" game without any training, and visa versa. This is very clear proof that abstract reasoning can be done by bees. The concept of "same" or "different" were clearly applied by bees in a way that would never be presented to a bee in "normal life". Now, this was a "Y Maze", which is not a complex maze at all. The bees had to decide between two paths diverging from a single point, so one could argue that the bees had a 50/50 chance from the outset. But they got numbers like 70% "winners", which is both clearly statistically significant, and also proves that the bees were not depending upon odor to find the nectar. (If they were using odor, nearly every bee would fly straight to the nectar.) Other experiments indicated that bees can even APPLY what they learned in one situation to another very different situation. Bees trained in the concept of "same" and "different" with odors were able to solve the visual color and pattern mazes without any training. So, where does "reasoning" take place in the brain? Given that bee brains are very simple, we may actually find the exact neuro-chemical process that we call "reasoning" by looking at the brains of bees. But bees ARE apparently capable of what can only be called "abstract thought and reasoning". Abstract http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v410/n6831/abs/4 10930a0_fs.html Full text http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v410/n6831/full/ 410930a0_fs.html jim (From Honey Bees to elephants, we're all just basic elements. And we all turn to compost when we die.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:40:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains Robin Dartington mentioned the "Fugus Among Us": > at Rothamstaed... introducing a self-sustaining, mite-killing fungus into > the hive environment. Fungus were known to kill mites and Rothamstead has > found several types effective against varooa. I think that the real problem is going to be finding a fungus that can thrive in the "controlled climate" of a beehive brood chamber. Here in Virginia, we have had nothing but rain all spring and summer. It has been so damp that must replace some drywall in my (unheated and uncooled) honey house due to mold growth. But my hives are fine. No mold, no damp, no problem. While mold is only one type of fungus, beekeepers only see moldy comb in dead-outs, as molds in general have a difficult time staying alive in beehives. (Which is a "good thing" for bees and beekeeping.) In a similar vein, if we could somehow dehumidify our beehives, we could desiccate varroa to death. This dehumidification would likely also kill an entire "generation" of brood in the process, but it would be a great non-toxic way to kill varroa if one could accept the collateral damage of a serious break in the brood cycle. This would not be cheap at all, as a dehumidifier requires both a compressor and a high velocity fan, and compressors and motors are greedy consumers of electricity. ...and yeah, I've already tried enhancing airflow with both electric fans and with a "solar chimney" (which heats air in a column above the hive, and thereby sets up a good airflow). I've pumped significant CFM through a few hives in an attempt to lower varroa populations, all the way down to the point where I was killing brood due to "chill" of the breeze. No dice. I could almost hear the mites laughing at me. The push-in queen cages might be an answer for those who still tolerate bees that continue to raise brood into the fall. If one caged the queen for a decent interval before introducing one's favorite miticide, there would be an assurance of "no sealed brood" to speak of, and thereby, a much more complete mite kill. But caging the queen means an extra trip to each hive before one treats the hive, so it is yet another labor-intensive approach. jim (Who has yet to become angry enough at varroa to take some bees and put "frickin' laser beams on their heads", but is getting close...) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:27:08 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation For anyone worried about possible negative effects from dishwashing liquid on wax foundation, there are a wide variety of chemicals called "surfactants", and/or "release agents", many which are approved as "food grade" by the US Food and Drug Administration (the "FDA", not to be confused with the "FBI" or "CIA"). My wife uses a "pan spray" as a release agent when she molds chocolates with complex details. A "pan spray" is a mix of cooking oil and Lecithin, the most commonly-known one being "Pam". Yeah, she makes fancy chocolates. I am, of course, burdened with responsibility for quality control testing. Life is good. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:01:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & all > Does this mean every sheet has plastic both sides > while being emossed? Yes Is that to avoid wax getting on the rollers? No, It is purely to stop the wax sheet stretching and thus rendering the cells larger than 4.9 mm (Dee's chosen size). > Does the plastic blur the sharpness of the embryo > cell walls? Very much so, but Dee sees this as an advantage. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:40:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pierre MacKay Subject: Hornets in hive I have a single hive, and hornets have moved in in significant numbers. I would have expected the bees to have "balled" the first hornets to death, but apparently they failed. The hornets do not appear to be carrying bees away, but I shudder to think what they may be doing inside the hive. Does anyone have experience with this problem? Pierre MacKay (New Subscriber to this list.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:13:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains In-Reply-To: <000d01c36899$ebec1af0$91b472d8@SOD> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000d01c36899$ebec1af0$91b472d8@SOD>, Todd writes >Apparently A. Cerana has some very specialized behavior that allow it to >deal with varroa. Workers pierce the cappings of drone cells, "inspecting" >them for varroa contamination, discarding those infected. This is the hygienic trait, well known in A.m. and whilst it appears that one set of bees uncap, another set remove infected larvae. It needs both traits in the colony to make up hygiene. I believe that the so- called "pepperpot" pattern associated with foul brood, chalk brood and now varroa, is a sign of hygienic bees, to be valued. FWIW I was taught that A.c. workers were not strong enough to uncap drones, which had to let themselves out, and it is the infected workers which are removed (though less prone). This meant that multiply infected drones were too weak to let themselves out and died along with the varroa. This was one factor which helps limit the varroa numbers to about 800 per colony. Can anyone confirm this? > Other varroa >related mechanisms also seem to be in place, allowing A.C. workers to >communicate in ways A.M. cannot. Again, A.m. does have some - grooming is one, though I don't know if the behaviour is identical - I have heard that A.m. have been seen calling for grooming when needed. Certainly we have had some locals saying they have none to few mites falling through the mesh floors which might indicate SMR. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:00:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Making your own foundation... It is interesting to follow this discussion, and those before on the this subject, since it will, again become a popular topic, and a needed technique for any beekeeper wishing to produce organic honey. Simply put, it becomes a chickn/egg problem....to raise orgainic honey, you need organic bees that must be raised on organic beewax comb, and only organic bees can produce organic beeswax. The foundation, if used, certainly, must be the same. So, to produce organic bees, you need to start on organic wax...if you want a faster start, you'll need organic foundation. To do that...well, there's the trick, isn't it? The USDA has all the rules, and Bee Culture magazine explores them in the Sept. issue, but it comes down to...that person who first produces organic wax in quantity will command a market...what will it be worth to an organic producer to obtain, say, 100 pounds to make starter strips for frames, or whole sheets of foundation, or pure organic foundation by the box full?. That wax producer will, of necessity, have been certified as producing organic wax, and all that goes with that, too. So, readers, heed the advice given here, but if organic is the way of your future, look and listen for the rest of this story. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting discussion but not a new topic by any means on BEE-L . I look forward to the article and BEE-L discussion. Beeswax is a sink for every contaminate our environment has to offer according to Jerry B. of our list. His research and posts to BEE-L (in the archives) will shock you as to the things Jerry has found in beeswax. Often beeswax from remote apiaries in Montana. I am not talking about legal pesticides used in beekeeping but the kinds of things found in most municipal water systems but hardly ever talked about. In order to obtain the kind of wax to be totally free of contaminates you would *in my opinion* (and I believe Jerry B.'s) need to get the bees to draw the wax right into the container. "To most beekeepers organic honey means honey with bee organs still in the honey" but I will keep and open mind! In my opinion the beekeeper has little influance over the thousands of acres a hive of bees forage and the contaminates they bring back BUT the beekeeper does have control over the way they process the honey after in their hands. Putting on your label that your honey is not D.I. filtered or pressure filtered and saying your honey has not been heated or only heated to a certain temp are excellent selling points to seperate your local honey from a store brand. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:47:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Why not start with plastic foundation to get started then harvest wax from these to get your foundation wax. I wonder if there is such a thing as "organic produced" wax as the bees will forage on almost anything. Maybe there might be a common sense level of "organic" Dan Veilleux In the mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:10:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: water In-Reply-To: <009601c367de$425e9000$7d8abc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Christine Gray Robin, Can't you get you're own email address? > In a not-hot summer bees > get all water needed from nectar which often has less tha 50:50 > concentration of sugars and so has to have water reduced not added. In > autumn, nectar flow stops and bees go back to using stored honey > - and back to collecting water. All depending on you're location, of course. Here, spring follows winter rains, nectar can start in Feb (actually rain didn't stop until 4 days ago, and 4 days of no rains was so remarkable, it was the weather lead on the news), the main flow starts approx apr 15, most consider it done by mid-to-late june (possibly to get their bees to the mountains by jul 1, the latest you can get them settled in and expect a crop, but my bees, 10 miles north, 500 ft higher and deeply wooded, tend to get a flow til mid july). The "hot" part of summer usually starts in jun - over 90 for over 90 days last year, a little cooler this year, but there is never a not-so-hot summer. But, if you keep them watered until late summer, in Sept the golden rod and aster should start and if you have fields nearby, they are taken care of until the rains start again (usually late nov or by dec at the latest). K. Oland E.TN, US and yes, it makes a large difference what part of TN, a 400+ mile state, going from river delta to reasonably high mountains. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:28:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <126f01c36867$7db21990$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: James Fischer > In a similar vein, if we could somehow dehumidify our beehives, we could > desiccate varroa to death. This dehumidification would likely also kill > an entire "generation" of brood in the process, but it would be a great > non-toxic way to kill varroa if one could accept the collateral damage > of a serious break in the brood cycle. If willing to drop a brood cycle, perhaps a portable deep freeze would work -- drop the brood chambers in after artificially swarming the bees onto "backup" hive bodies, then replace after 48 hrs and move the freezer to the next yard. While you are at it, drop in your 48 hr strip to treat the broodless bees (although, if you were doing this, you might want to go to a 4 day treatment, to fully kill the mites). At the end of the season, dump all the backup brood chambers and draw out new ones with swarms in the spring (sell the swarms as packages or use to replenish any bees killed over the winter). > But caging the queen means an extra trip > to each hive before one treats the hive, so it is yet another > labor-intensive approach. Extremely so, unless combined with fall requeening (but, then you don't want to treat when dropping in the new queen -- a dilemma --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Comb tracking/replacement (was "Beekeepers and treatments") In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jorn Johanesson > > > Another bonus is that the fact that the wax is not so old means that > > it is much less costly to process into an acceptable-looking bar of wax. > > It might seem weird to some of you, but I renew my wax every > second Year! I know Jim said he doesn't use Checkmite. But I believe he does use Apistan. Are you then rendering the wax that has been exposed to Apistan for 5 years into bars for use/resale? Is there not residue present (ignoring antibiotics, which should be broken down quickly) Fluvalinate and possibly menthol? In TN, it has been recommended that we replace brood comb every three years and burn the old frames, not re-use the wax. Not just for AFB prevention, but to remove wax with residue from the hive. > I have never had AFB, and am not treating with anything but formic, lactic > and oxalic acid Which means that Jorn does not have the same residue potential as most US beekeepers. Karen Oland --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Hornets in hive In-Reply-To: <200308231740.h7NHelJG017884@hugh.cs.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you tried reducing their entrance, so the hornets cannot get in? I've had them try, but only see success in weak colonies and then reducing the entrance helps keep out several pests. Karen Oland --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:16:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet Montgomery wrote: >Why not start with plastic foundation to get started then harvest wax from >these to get your foundation wax. > If I were bent on harvesting all of my own wax for foundation and never bringing in wax from an outside source I would consider setting up a few Top Bar Hives - the act of harvesting them will render more wax than standard hives - and you wouldn't start with foundation of an unknown source. my $0.02 Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: BEE-L Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <004b01c36899$1c130780$7d8ebc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:04 AM 8/22/03 +0100, you wrote: >Presumably the method cuts out the need to flood the colony with sugar >syrup to force >it onto the plastic , which is the practice that makes me worry about the >purity of the final honey. It certainly seems to. They still are more reluctant to draw foundation that to fill already drawn foundation as I would expect, but they seem to draw the plastic with the extra coat faster and more readily. It's pretty apparent that they shape the extra wax to form cell wall (I intended to try a frame or two with food coloring just to see for sure, but didn't get around to it). I got several supers with partially drawn foundation (1/4 deep or so) even though they obviously didn't need the room as they had no nectar or honey in them. To help draw them up into the super I do try to place a frame of drawn comb in the middle of the box (and one on each side if I have enough). I probably painted on 3-4 pounds of wax per 100 sheets of foundation. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:47:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <04b701c36b05$5d527780$14a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > I am not talking about legal pesticides used in beekeeping but the kinds of > things found in most municipal water systems but hardly ever talked about. > > In order to obtain the kind of wax to be totally free of contaminates you > would *in my opinion* (and I believe Jerry B.'s) need to get the bees > to draw the wax right into the container. Or import wax from wild bees in remote south american or african areas that have no man-contaminated regions within bee distance. Not likely. Perhaps a controlled environment at the south pole? With only supercleaned water and nectar sources, of course. > "To most beekeepers organic honey means honey with bee organs still in the > honey" Perhaps to one vendor -- not to "most". No more than thinking organic beef isn't prepared in a sanitary manner or that organic produce must be full of bugs. > In my opinion the beekeeper has little influance over the thousands of acres > a hive of bees forage and the contaminates they bring back Or what your neighbors and local governments spray right in your backyard > BUT the beekeeper > does have control over the way they process the honey after in their hands. True > > Putting on your label that your honey is not D.I. filtered or pressure > filtered and saying your honey has not been heated or only heated to a > certain temp are excellent selling points to seperate your local > honey from a store brand. As is taste testing, where possible, promoting your honey as more like a fine varietal wine (not a soft drink, the same everywhere) or posting results from one of the more responsible (respected?) studies on the health benefits of honey versus sugar. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:33:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. McBride" Subject: Re: Hornets in hive Comments: To: Pierre MacKay >... hornets have moved in in significant numbers. . . Does anyone have experience with this problem? I have had experience with that, unfortunately. A weak hive of mine, late in the summer several years ago, had hornets coming and going at will. When I opened the hive up they would fly in from above. They consumed larvae, depriving the hive of its' next generations. I wasn't ready to give up on this hive, and didn't want to combine it with another for other reasons. I reduced the entrance, added a robber screen, added plenty of pollen supplement and several gallons of syrup all to strengthen them. Then, though not exactly standard practice, I donned a pair of gloves and sat outside the hive entrance. Any hornet attempting to land to get in was slowed by the robber screen, at which point I, with those gloves, killed them. In total I got approximately 18-20 hornets in about an hour. In the end it worked. By the end of October they were back to having enough stores for winter, and was one of my best hives the next summer. So there is hope. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:33:22 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daniel Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen D. Oland wrote: >Or import wax from wild bees in remote south american or african areas that >have no man-contaminated regions within bee distance. Not likely. Perhaps a >controlled environment at the south pole? With only supercleaned water and >nectar sources, of course. > > > that's what the bio ("organic") - beekeepers are doing in switzerland, and the method ist quite controversal, importing wax from south african areas... the wild bee's there produce a differnt wax, higher melting point etc., apart from all the energy used to transport it over the long distance. and as the treatment against the diseases isn't free, be prepared to see some migration there too.. let the bees produce their own new wax, residue free... top bar hive or other method. when it comes to organic produced stuff, be it honey or other, there is always the word "money", sell it better, easier, for a better price. Is this realy the original intention? change to organic to get a better price? change to organic to help the bees, so the are healthier, ok, but only to make more money? greetings from Switzerland, Daniel. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:36 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: "Organic" Wax (was "Wax foundation") Kim Flottum (who prints his magazine with soy ink on recycled paper) said: > ...for any beekeeper wishing to produce organic honey. > Simply put, it becomes a chicken/egg problem....to raise > organic honey, you need organic bees that must be raised > on organic beewax comb, and only organic bees can produce > organic beeswax. The "organic standards" are a fine idea... for plant crops. But I don't think that any beekeeper who thinks about it for more than a minute would agree that an "organic honey" program is a good idea for the US honey "industry". (Yes, this week on "What Happens After What Comes Next?" we again explore the blindingly obvious in excruciating detail, by taking facts and banging them against other facts...) The attempt to force-fit "organic" standards into beekeeping is a hand grenade tossed at the basic concept of "pure honey". If only a small percentage of honey can be labeled "organic", then what's the consumer forced to conclude about ALL OTHER honey? Worse yet, the current implementation of the "organic" standards is "Broken As Designed" (or, as we like to call such things here at the lab, "B.A.D."). There is simply no possible way for any "organic" beekeeper to know if anyone within the foraging range of his or her hives is using a pesticide, herbicide, or other "nasty thing" at any point in time. All he can do is hope. It follows that at some point in the near future, honey labeled "organic" will be tested by a lab, found to be "contaminated" at some parts-per-billion or parts-per-trillion level, resulting in the usual "investigative journalism" scare-mongering. Needless to say, the unlucky producer with his label on the bottle will have his organic certification, threatened, and will be tainted with a hint of scandal for the rest of his days. And so will all the rest of us. The producer at issue will also have the highly dubious honor of pointing out that he strictly complied with the requirements of the organic program, so any actual contamination found does not render his honey unfit for the "organic" label. About 30 seconds after this statement stops echoing around the room, the entire "organic honey" program will suddenly disappear in a cloud of greasy black smoke. But even though the rules as defined do nothing to completely assure uncontaminated honey, the rules unfairly exclude some beekeepers who might be able to meet the same requirements if more specific wording were used. For example, there is a golf course within the foraging range of my bees. Never mind that it is a small municipal golf course that has never had a budget for herbicides or pesticides and never will. The mere fact that it is a "golf course" means that I cannot ever be considered for "organic" certification if I keep my hives within foraging range of it. In my specific case, there are other nearby land uses that also prevent me from meeting the "organic" standards, but I'll bet that there is a non-trivial number of beekeepers who might able able to certify as "organic" if not for the (generally accurate) assumptions made in the organic standards about the connection between specific land uses and possible contaminants. As currently worded, the organic standards for honey are nothing but a lawsuit waiting to happen. I'd guess that handing the standards to a judge and mentioning the "Equal Protection" clause of the 14th amendment to the US (as it applies to state laws) and the "due process" requirement of the 5th amendment (as it applies to federal laws) ought to be an easy slam-dunk. Bottom line, "organic" should not be allowed as an adjective used as a modifier for "honey", since the "Organic Program" as currently implemented merely describes a set of "best practices" that cannot assure a final product free of detectable contamination. If we simply leave well enough alone, we have a product that consistently tests at higher purity levels than any other food product. Honey is perceived as "organic" by definition, and we should not allow anyone, including a government agency, to suggest otherwise. jim (Who is still searching for a customer of an "Organic Food Store" who does not resemble an extra from "Night Of The Living Dead") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:31:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Pesticide Use In-Reply-To: <35de01c366ba$68d38a30$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If beekeepers want to chant "the label is the law" in regard to > pesticide use by growers, they should not consider "getting creative" > themselves. The chant is a good one, and the moral high ground > behind it has yet to have been questioned. Although I would agree with regard to off-label use, the use of less of a chemical or less often use than "recommended" (by state ag agents, many of whom are funded by these same chemical companies -- I expect our university to stop using current foot ball players to name roads any day now, switching to major corporate sponsors instead) isn't really quite the same. Example: the recommendation to spray your fruit trees every two weeks, with or without pests seen (usually necessitating also using an herbicide to prevent clover growth underneath, as well, to avoid killing bees foraging there). Instead, a single application, as needed, can be just as effective. > > In studies, it is quite common to do a "24 hour" Apistan test as > a "standard" way of estimating mite populations. In some cases, > this is done as often as weekly. As a result, there should be a > good data set to prove that these "24 hour tests" were never > effective in themselves at controlling varroa. If they were > effective, the act of counting mites in control (untreated) colonies > would eliminate so many mites that one's control colonies would no > longer be "controls". Do you have any references we could look at for that? Perhaps they were effective as a control (but who would want to do this every week?) and were a good measure of reinfestation, rather than continuing infestation. > And I'm not going to even try to think about how many 48-hour uses > of any one miticide strip would equal one "use" of a strip, but > I don't think anyone could resist trying to use them in more than > one hive for this sort of "short-term use". Generally, the 42 day time period of use is due to a combination of wear off of the pesticide and propolis build up reducing the application surface. So, if you used two days at a time, I would think the resuses would be less than 21, perhaps needing 3 or 4 days per mini-application as it neared the end of its useful life. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:26:06 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Pesticide Use I said: >> In studies, it is quite common to do a "24 hour" Apistan test as a >> "standard" way of estimating mite populations... As a result, there >> should be a good data set to prove that these "24 hour tests" were >> never effective in themselves at controlling varroa. If they were >> effective, the act of counting mites in control (untreated) colonies >> would eliminate so many mites that one's control colonies would no >> longer be "controls". and Karen Oland said: > Do you have any references we could look at for that? I don't think anyone has done a specific study to prove that the measurement methods intended to merely count mites have a negligible impact on the mite population, but just think about it: If the "24-hour Apistan test" was a good way to control varroa, studies using such measurement methods would have an unusual (high) rate of colony survival among "control colonies". In fact, the exact opposite appears to be the case. Control colonies consistently enjoy the dubious honor of "dying for science". A "control" that survives a varroa study is uncommon. > Perhaps they were effective as a control (but who would > want to do this every week?) and were a good measure of > reinfestation, rather than continuing infestation. Uh oh - you are using "control" as in "controlling varroa", and I was using "control" as in "a control colony", one that is given no treatment at all, in contrast to ones that are subjected to "Methodology A" or "Methodology B". Reinfestation is an interesting subject. Wyatt Mangum is working on a long-term study that looks at just that. I dunno how to stop bees from "drifting" when hives are clustered in groups, but it seems clear that if we could somehow reduce drifting, we could reduce reinfestation. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:50:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pierre MacKay Subject: Re: Hornets in hive In-Reply-To: <200308251933.h7PCL8Wt007332@listserv.albany.edu> (velo4k1@ATTBI.COM) Many thanks to those who answered, especially to D. McBride, who describes exactly my situation, and gives me hope that I can rescue this poor weak colony after all. Pierre MacKay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pesticide Use Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said I dunno how to stop bees from "drifting" when hives are clustered in groups, but it seems clear that if we could somehow reduce drifting, we could reduce reinfestation. Drifting drones surely spread varroa mites but the main cause of reinfestation is *robbing*. As hives dwindle because of high varroa infestation they become easy prey for robber bees. I have seen worker bees with many varroa hanging on land on the landing board when the robbing of a varroa infested hive is going on. Many beekeepers had to treat several times a year when varroa first arrived due to reinfestation. In other words the varroa were piggy backed to the hive which was doing the robbing along with the honey. Enough varroa to push a hive over threshold could be brought back. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:21:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. McBride" Subject: Re: Pesticide Use "Bob wrote: Jim said I dunno how to stop bees from "drifting" when hives are clustered in groups, but it seems clear that if we could somehow reduce drifting, we could reduce reinfestation." Though certainly not my idea, using individual markers on every hive is one answer. Simply put, painting a different design on each landing board, say stripes, arrows, stars, etc., and using different colors helps to identify each hive. As much as we admire the orienting ability of such a small insect, they are not infallable, with some species being better or worse than others at navigating. This does seem to help, especially in a yard with hive after hive all the same color and shape. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:03:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Small Cells & Bee Strains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I raised the question of "Rothamstaed... introducing a self-sustaining, mite-killing fungus into > the hive environment. Fungus were known to kill mites and Rothamstead has > found several types effective against varooa", Jim commented:" I think that the real problem is going to be finding a fungus that can thrive in the "controlled climate" of a beehive brood chamber". Jim commented how well bees control mold within the hive. Presumably this is what Roth is now testing - has anyone got news on progress? However, we can note that the micro-clmate within a hive varies from the centre of the brood out to the honey stores out at the edges. When a fungus kills a mite, the fungus produces sporulating bodies on the corpse from which fungus spores float away to settle where they can. If (I speculate) spores settled in empty cells even at the edge of the nest then they might be picked up on the body hairs of cell-cleaning bees - and still be there if and when a varooa hitches a lift. This mechanism would not kill all varooa in a hive immediately but would increase the odds against varooa survival and so slow the rate of population growth. We need to make the internal environment sufficiently hostile to varooa that varroa and bees can co-exist without much risk of a colony ever being overwhelmed - except when robber bees bring back a sudden burst, that will always be dangerous, and will need constant vigilance from beekeepers to monitor mite drop thru screens. (Presumably screens will also be needed to catch the sporulating bodies and not let them drop too far out of contact). So I await news from Roth in hope that fungus will be part of the long-term answer. Robin Dartington (who believes we must accept working within the rules of nature, not just hammer the environment with poisons which have never ever eliminated any insect species entirely) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:09:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen D. Oland quoted first Bob Harrison "Putting on your label that your honey is not D.I. filtered or pressure filtered and saying your honey has not been heated or only heated to a > > certain temp are excellent selling points to seperate your local > > honey from a store brand" then added herself" As is taste testing, where possible, promoting your honey as more like a fine varietal wine (not a soft drink, the same everywhere) or posting > results from one of the more responsible (respected?) studies on the health > benefits of honey versus sugar". Are any 'responsible( respected) studies are known that could convince the unmoving minds of some on this list? When I recently referred to research on the value of honey in healing (as circumstantial evidence there is something in floral honey that is not in sugar honey) and referred to IBRA's 2001, 'Honey and Healing' which gives lectures given by five research scientists (the first ending with references to 97 journals, mostly medical and the second article ending with 155 references - and so on), Keith Benson just came back 'I have yet to see this a standard medical therapy - in fact, it is just a fringe thing'. Karen was of course thinking of honey consumers, who pay out for honey, rather than honey producers who get money in when someone a purchases a jar, but are harder to get to consider the evidence. What studies could Karen use with open minded consumers? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:39:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <000b01c36c1e$bee679a0$5678bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Aug 2003 at 23:09, Christine Gray wrote: > When I recently referred to research > on > the value of honey in healing (as circumstantial evidence there is > something > in floral honey that is not in sugar honey) .... Christine, or Robin, or whoever... Get this and get this clear: WE DO NOT PRODUCE SUGAR HONEY! Quit muddying the discussion with your muddy thinking. By your constant harping, you make honey less saleable. People ask me. "Do you feed sugar to your bees?" Of course I do, if they need it. I will not lie to them. But the feeding is NOT done when they are producing honey. It is done in the winter, or during a long period of adverse weather, or when they are contract pollinating a crop which does not produce honey. It is when bees are threatened with starvation, not when they are producing. Or it is done when additional bees are being raised (just like the cattleman needs his cows to produce calves). Again, this is not a honey producing situation. Sadly enough some customers cannot comprehend the difference, partly because folks like you keep muddying the water with your comments about "sugar honey." And what is good for humans (healthwise) is not really relevant to what is good for bees. You make some good points at times. We do have to seek alternatives to pesticides, not only for our bees, but all throughout agriculture. But on this issue you are just harping, not helping. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Pesticide Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re. Drifting. Bees seem to drift, under various predicaments, not necessarily due to disorientation caused by the beekeeper’s stacking the identical boxes tightly. Do a little experiment with nurse bees, for example. If you shake the inner cover, attached with hundreds of young bees, over the entrance of a weak colony in the distance, they will readily be accepted with Zero fighting, a fact we exploit to strengthen colonies by giving them all stages of brood frames, coming from various colonies. When I pair two colonies side by side, I always make sure their landing boards are painted differently; however, I have a sneaky suspicion that they drift, unawares, till they settle down, and then a little more even after, just as in the rare case of continous robbing. Furthermore, any adult bee hauling in nectar, it is well documented, will be accepted most of the time by strangers; in this archive and elsewhere someone had already done the color experiment—-dumping bees in no man’s land, marked with color, and finding them back about an hour later in the neighboring colonies in the vicinity. Stragglers, too, eventually join back to the parent colony or are absorbed by neighboring colony, it appears, for I have yet to witness a solitary honey bee, an oxymoron given their social existence. Bees are, I find, resilient, flexible, and constantly adapting—-all the more remarkable considering their simple yet elegant design. Look at the size of their head. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:34:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Cooper Subject: Granulating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been told you can keep honey from granulating by storing it in a freezer. =20 Has anyone had any experience with this? What are the pros and cons? =20 Mike C. =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:32:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Granulating honey In-Reply-To: <192223F5780EAB4E891117A8F4479181BA5227@www.idahoag.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Mike Cooper wrote: > I have been told you can keep honey from granulating by storing it in a > freezer. > > > > Has anyone had any experience with this? What are the pros and cons? > Yes, I have. Last year, I stored several quart jars of liquid honey and about a dozen Ross Rounds in the freezer, some for nearly 9 months. None of it crystallized in the freezer, but after removing it, at room temperature it crystallized in a couple of weeks. So the "pro" side is, it works really well. Crystallization is completely halted for an indefinite period. On the "con" side, it can suck up a lot of freezer space if you get carried away. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave & All, > Get this and get this clear: WE DO NOT PRODUCE SUGAR > HONEY! > > Quit muddying the discussion with your muddy thinking. > It's being muddied in both directions, some beekeepers do muddy the honey with sugar syrup feed. WE may not be producing sugar honey but the bees can and do produce a artificial honey from the feeding of sugar syrup. You may be 100% positively sure that you have not got any artificial honey in the combs you extract but I would bet that some beekeepers who prefer to feed right up to the honey flow get some artificial honey in some of their combs that they extract. A test for whether or not someone's honey has abnormal levels of sucrose in their honey can be done for around $40.00 USF from some labs. Here is a URL for a lab that does the test; http://www.csl-sira.com/ If on the other hand a beekeeper never fed sugar syrup to the bees (like myself) that beekeeper knows that the honey their bees produce will not be artificial. > You make some good points at times. We do have to seek > alternatives to pesticides, not only for our bees, but all throughout > agriculture. > > But on this issue you are just harping, not helping. > And it would seem you are harping back trying your best to defend and legitimize sugar syrup feed. A beekeeper does not have to feed sugar syrup to keep bees alive during nectar dearths. There are methods that are used by beekeepers that requires no sugar syrup feed. If I may ask Keith Benson if he can tell this group of what happened this year with the bees he keeps (some large cell bees and some small cell bees) during what beekeepers in his area of South Carolina called a nectar dearth? Also Keith, your in SC just like Dave, Do you feed your bees or do you leave honey on for the nectar dearths? Keith,"Breaking the rules here in Alaska keeping bees alive in winter and not feeding sugar syrup for our six to seven month winter nectar dearth." Malone . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:58:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Granulating honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> MCOOPER@AGRI.STATE.ID.US 8/27/03 11:34:47 AM >>> I have been told you can keep honey from granulating by storing it in a freezer. Has anyone had any experience with this? What are the pros and cons? Mike C. >>>>>>>>>>>> It's particularly important for section comb honey to store it in a freezer if you're going to keep it for any length of time. You don't want the honey to crystalize in the comb. Pros: protects the honey and containers inside the freezer from accidents and vermin, honey doesn't crystalize, kills wax moth eggs, less degradation of honey quality due to heat Cons: electricity costs, takes a lot of space you might want to use for other things, some containers become brittle and easier to break when frozen and must be handled with greater care There may be others on both sides I haven't thought of. I keep some of my honey in my freezer, particularly sections and Ross Rounds combs. Layne Westover College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:30:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it was Mark Winston at Gormanston who said that the record numbers of stings endured in one session by somebody who survived is 2,000. I had a mere 55 or thereabouts yesterday - the dear creatures went down inside my boots and up my trouser legs. It was this that prompts my question: what is the LD50 for bee stings? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <000b01c36c1e$bee679a0$5678bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >Are any 'responsible( respected) studies are known that could convince the >unmoving minds of some on this list? > Y'know, statements like this certainly fail to ingratiate a poster with his audience (or target as the case may be) > When I recently referred to research on >the value of honey in healing (as circumstantial evidence there is something >in floral honey that is not in sugar honey) and referred to IBRA's 2001, >'Honey and Healing' which gives lectures given by five research scientists >(the first ending with references to 97 journals, mostly medical and the >second article ending with 155 references - and so on), Keith Benson just >came back 'I have yet to see this a standard medical therapy - in fact, it >is just a fringe thing'. > And your point? As someone who is engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine, and who interacts with the human medical community on a very consistent basis, I can tell you that this is, in fact, not a standard medical practice. I can also tell you that there are far more consistent, controllable, repeatable ways to do the things honey is touted to do as a topical therapy for wounds. This practice is not mainstream in this country, and therefore can be defined, in the context I used the term, fringe. No judgment, merely the way it is on this side of the puddle. If you read what I wrote you will also see that that is not all that I said - and that you missed the point as to why it is fringe. It has something to do with variability. Hit the archives, re-reading it might help. That you know there are physicians who use the stuff does not make the use of honey in treating wounds mainstream. Heck, search long enough and you can find physicians who do a lot of odd things (most do not, but there are always two tails on the bell curve). Colloidal silver, complex meridian units etc. Want to see something interesting. Do a search on the following "turtle + cancer" Use a legitimate search engine (not an internet one) and you will be amazed at the number of papers supporting the notion that drinking turtle blood or ground turtle shell will cure all kinds of things. Even studies where folks were trying to find out what it was about turtle bits that provided this miraculous properties. They should not have been looking at the turtle bits - but the researchers imagination. >Karen was of course thinking of honey consumers, who pay out for honey, >rather than honey producers who get money in when someone a purchases a >jar, but are harder to get to consider the evidence. What studies could >Karen use with open minded consumers? > Be careful not to confuse gullible with open minded. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: >If I may ask Keith Benson if he can tell this group of what happened this >year with the bees he keeps (some large cell bees and some small cell bees) >during what beekeepers in his area of South Carolina called a nectar dearth? > Hi Keith, sure can. I saw far more activity and foraging in the small cell bees. Bear in mind though that these bees are not fully regressed so I am not talking about bees that you or Dee would call small cell bees. Lets call them "smaller" bees . . . ;) IIRC I added the caveat to this that the small cell colonies were all still expanding where 2/3 or the large cell colonies were from the year before and not actively expanding. I was not certain if the "small" bees were working harder because they felt they had too. I hope to have more observations in the next 2-5 years. My "n" is microscopic, but I am just playing around and would not consider my info more than anecdotal. No harm, no foul and no making statements that sound like fact when they are simply opinion. I am hoping (and I can, cause I am simply playing at this and can continue to follow a pipe dream if I feel like it!) that Dee's observation that small cell bees access a wider variety of forage and extend the foraging window in a part of the country with a short flow. >Also Keith, your in SC just like Dave, Do you feed your bees or do you leave >honey on for the nectar dearths? > I leave the honey on. But I am not a commercial guy and can do whatever I darn well please. I do not refrain from feeding sugar due to the notion that it is nutritionally less sound. If one of my colonies was starving I would feed it. >Keith,"Breaking the rules here in Alaska keeping bees alive in winter and >not >feeding sugar syrup for our six to seven month winter nectar dearth." Malone > You go buddy, BTW - did you get the articles? Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:04:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Keith Malone > If on the other hand a beekeeper never fed sugar syrup to the bees > (like myself) that beekeeper knows that the honey their bees produce will > not be artificial. Actually, not true. It would also depend on what your bees have found in their forage range. If it includes soft drink bottling plants, ballfields or dump areas, they could be picking up quantities of artifical sugars and bringing it in. > And it would seem you are harping back trying your best to defend and > legitimize sugar syrup feed. A beekeeper does not have to feed sugar syrup > to keep bees alive during nectar dearths. There are methods that are used by > beekeepers that requires no sugar syrup feed. Ok, solve this: It started raining here in January, continued thru the entire build up season, then at least ever two-three days during the nectar flow. Bees here built up pretty well, but were weak coming out of winter. By the end of the nectar flow (late June), all 10 hives were strong. However, they had very little honey stored. A few weeks later, some were at the point of total starvation (dead bees out front, no stores, bees not flying). Total harvest of honey this year: zero. Total honey available to feed: zero. How are they to be saved, without feeding sugar? Which I did and they are doing better, only two still at point of no stores -- IF there is a good fall flow, they should be able to build up enough stores for winter -- if not, it will be sugar again. Your solution: feed honey. there is none. I won't buy it from elsewhere, even if it were not many times more expensive (to prevent spread of disease). Today marks the 6th day of no rain - possibly a record length of time for this year (at 4 days, it was so remarkable, it was a lead-in for the weather forecast). Forecast for tomorrow: 30-40% chance of rain (and continuing for the next week). Of course, there is nothing much blooming now. There are a few early goldenrood, scattered garden plants, but no major flow, still. This weather has resulted in similar honey yields for most beekeepers in the area -- many are averaging not more than 3 lbs per hive (instead of the 60+ for this area). Some up in sourwood areas are not reporting any better luck there. What is "best" for bees and what is "required" are not always the same. Comparing the "dearth" of winter to that of mid-summer (with 90+ weather) is simply an attempt to confuse the issue. Other areas of the country have had decent weather (we made more during the last two years of drought than in this continuing downpour) and are more likely to have honey to leave on (which we generally do). Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:52:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Organic" Wax (was "Wax foundation") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <4be901c36b38$eea53190$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kim Flottum (who prints his magazine with soy ink on recycled paper) said: > ...for any beekeeper wishing to produce organic honey. > Simply put, it becomes a chicken/egg problem....to raise > organic honey, you need organic bees that must be raised > on organic beewax comb, and only organic bees can produce > organic beeswax. Reply: Quite true for production of organic beeswax. However I do not agree with the current guidelines for what are organic honeybees by way of field management. Zero tolerance is zero tolerance. Jim Fischer wrote: The "organic standards" are a fine idea... for plant crops. Reply: Actually they are needed for all good food production, but zero tolerance is still zero tolerance and I must add here, zero tolerance by the beekeeper is needed concerning products of the hive. Something which is not being currently done! Jim Fischer then wrote: But I don't think that any beekeeper who thinks about it for more than a minute would agree that an "organic honey" program is a good idea for the US honey "industry". Reply: Yes and No! If it does away with cheap honey it is good and raises the standard for clean honey for health. No if it is gimickry and watered down rules which manipulate beekeepers with continued picking and choosing who wins and loses. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:57:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daiell Dempsey Subject: Re: Granulating honey In-Reply-To: <192223F5780EAB4E891117A8F4479181BA5227@www.idahoag.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Mike Cooper wrote: > I have been told you can keep honey from granulating > by storing it in a > freezer. > > > > Has anyone had any experience with this? What are > the pros and cons? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The farther frfrom7 degree F you keep the honey the longer it will take to grgranulate Cold is better than Heat. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:57:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris wrote: "...It was this that prompts my question: what is the LD50 for bee stings?" Which prompts my question: what is LD50? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden PS. Hope you're still OK after all those stings, Chris. What doesn't kill you will toughen you. I have been working my bees in dark, cold and rainy weather the last couple of days. Conditions like these turn bees into angry walkers and they sure turn up in some places where you thought you were protected (and sting you in those same places). ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:05:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Wax foundation >Keith,"Breaking the rules here in Alaska keeping bees alive in winter and not feeding sugar syrup for our six to seven month winter nectar dearth." Malone Hi Keith: What amount of honey, pound-wise, were you able to harvest from the hives by leaving enough for your bees to overwinter on? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:18:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wax foundation Keith Benson said: > Want to see something interesting. Do a > search on the following "turtle + cancer" Use a legitimate search > engine (not an internet one)... What is a legitimate search engine? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen & All, What type bees do you keep? Some bees work better under bad conditions. Try unlimited brood nest management. Leave plenty of honey on hives for dearth periods. Use a cell size that increases your number of bees per brood cycle. Allow the bees to build up their brood nest using Nectar instead of sugar syrup. Feed if you have to but only if you have to. I am not against feeding starving bees but there are times beekeepers feed when they really do not need to. > What is "best" for bees and what is "required" are not always the same. > Comparing the "dearth" of winter to that of mid-summer (with 90+ weather) is > simply an attempt to confuse the issue. > If that statement confused you you may be reading more into the statement than the statement stated. Still honey or nectar is best for the bees. The statement was just a closing statement, not there to diffuse or confuse unless I guess if one is susceptible. Dee Lusby in a dessert does alright not feeding sugar syrup and by gawlee it gets pretty hot and dry in her neck of the country. I would say if there is a will you can find a way. Be a pioneer. That's what I am doing in Alaska where I was just informed just two days ago that it is to hard to keep bees through our winters and a beekeeper should kill the bees in the fall. > Actually, not true. It would also depend on what your bees have found in > their forage range. If it includes soft drink bottling plants, ballfields > or dump areas, they could be picking up quantities of artifical sugars and > bringing it in. > I guess I am just lucky to be keeping bees in a part of Alaska where I have no such problems. If a person does have such problems perhaps they should move the bees they keep to a better forage area. Some locations are not meant for bees to be kept in. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:49:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Far too many variables for LD50 to be expressed in terms of bee stings, the question is what is the LD50 for bee venom. Ruary Rudd . It was this that prompts my question: what is the LD50 > for bee stings? > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:00:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: phil MOORE Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the dear creatures went down inside my boots > and up my trouser legs. It was this that prompts my question: what is the LD50 > for bee stings? You don't keep a strain or hybrid of Amm by any chance? his is classic behavior for Amm or hybrids, do you have a problem with swarming and slow build up as well? Phil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:02:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > what is the LD50 for bee stings? http://www.beevenom.com/Beevenomallergy.htm Reckons 1,000 - 1,100 Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:33:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen D. Oland : "What is "best" for bees and what is "required" are not always the same". Karen, let's stick to that one. You have given good reason why your bees were starving and surely we have all agreed many times that bees have to be fed in an emergency. The point that should interest us is 'what does that do to the bees? How does bee biology respond when bees are given an artificial feed? Yes, it has to be done, YES< YES < YES. But what follows? What are the risks? Even, could artificial feeds result in a colony having a weak immune system and be prone to virus attack - which is where we started - and where I still hope something useful may emerge. Robin Dartington who writes on Chistine Gray's computer :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:25:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Benson quoted me: " Keith Benson just came back 'I have yet to see this a standard medical therapy - in fact, it is just a fringe thing" and added himself: " And your point? .......I can tell you that this is, in fact, not a standard medical practice". Let me explain the point again - for those with ears to hear. I have referred to the booklet published by International Bee Reasearch Association (tel: +44 (0)29 2037 2409, web:www.ibra,org,uk, e-mail: mail@ibra.org.uk) , Honey and Healing, 2001 - ISBN: 0-85092-240-8. This contains five lectures by scientists on their recent work on the healing capacity of honey. The studies included comparison with sugar honey which was found not as effective. I am drawing the inference from this that (some types of) floral honey have been shown to be in some way different from sugar honey, in context of the discussion on the possible effects on bees of feeding sugar. It is up to readers of this list whether or not they feel that is useful evidence or not. Denigration of the research (without any sign u have read it) as a 'fringe' practice is simply not relevant. A fact (if it is a fact ) is a fact whether recognised by a small group of reasearchers or by the general run of vetenary practitioners. Presumably if u had been around when Galileo first mumbled that the earth revolves around the sun, u would have said 'that's only a fringe view - can't see a multi-billion project to set a man on Mars starting from that view, as there are many better theories based on the earth being flat'. It remains something of a puzzle why a group on this list is so insistent on crushing any idea that natural honey could possibly be more than flavoured sugar and , by extension, that sugar is as good a feed for bees as natural honey. You claim knowledge of nutrition and medical practice - I would have thought that , as a professional, u would read up the scientific papers ( over 200 references in Honey and Healing) and take up the issues with the scientists who did the work. Instead u seem only to want to restrict debate by deriding the concepts in principle, unread. You even end your post by seeking to associate 'open-mindedness' with gullibility - so anyone seeking new knowledge is a fool? Stick to your own narrow views by all means but may I suggest, in the interests of 'informed discussion on beekeeping issues and bee biology' (let us remember the purpose of this list) that u would help others more if u concentrated on presenting the evidence for your side of the argument and less on knocking other posts without providing evidence. Others on this list could then make up their own minds. Lastly, I do not mind if u refer to me by my name, Robin Dartington, with which I sign all posts. Christine Gray is the owner of the computer. Presumanbly when u get a business letter u reply to whoever signed the letter rather than just to Barcklay's Bank? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poor word choice on my part. I mean something like CAB or Agricola, surfing the web for thisd on info will really frustrate one. Keith Peter Edwards wrote: >Keith Benson said: > > >>Want to see something interesting. Do a >>search on the following "turtle + cancer" Use a legitimate search >>engine (not an internet one)... >> >> > >What is a legitimate search engine? > >Peter Edwards >beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk >www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee stings LD50 In-Reply-To: <20030828055743.GNYE22892.fep04-svc.swip.net@fep04-svc.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 28 Aug 2003 at 7:57, Mats Andersson wrote: > Which prompts my question: what is LD50? LD50 is a measurement of toxicity for a particular toxin. It is the lethal dose for 50% of the sample. Of course this varies according to the factors of the exposure, for example whether an organism makes surface (skin or exoskeletan) contact with a toxin, or whether one ingests it. So LD50 is a rather vague measurement. LD50 of bee stings for humans would also vary with past exposure, body weight, locale of the sting, condition of the immune system, and many other factors. On one (very bad day) I sustained around 400 stings. My system seems to be able to handle quite a few stings with little problem, but this was a bit much, and I was quite sick. The symtoms were flu-like, with headache, aching joints and weakness. But it only lasted a couple hours. I was aided (I think) by two extra-strength acetaminophens. On another occasion I was stung on the eyeball. There was little pain at first, only an eye irritant, and I had a difficult time removing the stinger from a weeping eye, with only a truck mirror and flashlight. It quickly developed into a throbbing headache, again aided (I think) by acetaminophen. Probably the worst single sting I ever had was by an unknown assailant (probably a hornet or bumblebee) on the temple, while I was mowing hay. I blacked out as a result. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: wade Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Keith,"Breaking the rules here in Alaska keeping bees alive in winter and not feeding sugar syrup for our six to seven month winter nectar dearth." Malone Keith Do you have a certain minimum amount of honey that should be left on the hives for your conditions? Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:24:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick & All, > What amount of honey, pound-wise, were you able to harvest from the hives > by leaving enough for your bees to overwinter on? > I am in a mode of building up numbers in my apiaries and most colonies were made to increase this year. 15 out of 18 colonies survived last winter and this spring I added one package bee that did not go to any customers. The 16 were increased to 25 plus three nucs. I put honey supers on 6 colonies just so I could harvest a little honey even though I am in more of a mode to increase numbers rather than harvesting honey just yet. From these six colonies I harvested 250 lbs. and from some of those six colonies I even got a couple splits. So to me it is more than just harvesting honey that is important. I am also providing a pollinating service in all the locations my apiaries are. I would say leaving honey on last season was a success for me and my goals. Like I said I am building up my apiaries so I have more numbers of colonies and that I am doing. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:35:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <003901c36d4d$6c97c160$3a7abc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > It remains something of a puzzle why a group on this list is so insistent on > crushing any idea that natural honey could possibly be more than flavoured > sugar and , by extension, that sugar is as good a feed for bees as natural > honey. You claim knowledge of nutrition and medical practice - I would have > thought that , as a professional, u would read up the scientific papers ( > over 200 references in Honey and Healing) and take up the issues with the > scientists who did the work. Instead u seem only to want to restrict debate > by deriding the concepts in principle, unread. You are combining two issues into one - that honey is the best feed for bees and scientific papers on wound treatment shows that statement is true. They are not connected. A person can live on cheerios and nothing else but you would not use it to treat wounds. You can treat wounds with iodine, but I would not recommend it for breakfast. You ask for facts, so let us look at some. 1. Scientific studies in England showed white sugar is the best winter feed. HFCS was second and honey third. 2. Almost all enzymes in honey are there because of the bees and not the plant. 3. Bees add enzymes (invertase) to convert sucrose to dextrose, levulose and other sugars. 4. Some plant nectars have higher sucrose (which is the main sugar in nectar) concentrations than others. 5. Higher concentrations of sucrose means that there is less time needed to drive off water to bring the nectar to the proper honey density. 6. Less time means that the enzymes have less time to work, so it takes longer to convert sucrose when concentrations are higher. So you get different concentrations of enzyme byproducts in honey mostly because of the initial concentrations of sucrose. 7. Another key enzyme is glucose oxidase. Its concentration will determine the difference between most honeys and their efficacy in wound treatment. (It is an interesting enzyme. It keeps honey from fermenting by making hydrogen peroxide at any honey/water interface. So it creates hydrogen peroxide at the contact point of honey and a wound, and the wound is continually awash in Hydrogen peroxide as long as there is plenty of glucose oxidase.) 8. There are several nectar sources that sicken and even kill bees. There are several floral sources that are harmful to the bees for overwintering. You can get verification of each of these points in most comprehensive books (Hive and Honey Bee is where I found most. The first was from an article I read and have posted many times on the BeeL). So for wound treatment... different honeys will be more effective than others, mostly because of the initial nectar concentration and the time for enzymes to work. Sugar fed directly will probably be the worst not because it is pure sucrose but because of its concentration (compared to nectar)when fed to bees. Super saturated solutions of sugar are currently used for wound treatment. Bacteria have a difficult time surviving in such. Honey adds hydrogen peroxide to the mix. Sugar does not so honey is better for wound treatment. But supersaturated solutions of sugar are seldom used. They are messy, labor intensive and there are much better alternatives. Honey is no better in this regard (and I have used it after a major operation). You will find it used in countries that cannot afford treatments that you will find in the US. It is not mainstream but a fringe treatment. As far as feed for bees, sucrose is broken down by the enzymes provided by bees. Sucrose from nectar or sucrose from sugar cane is sucrose. Sucrose is treated the same by a bee's enzymes no matter what its source. But the enzyme products are different mostly because of initial nectar or sugar syrup concentrations. Highly concentrated nectar can have the same main products as concentrated syrup after processing by the bees enzymes. 1 - Therefore, as shown by studies, all honey is not the same. Cane sugar solutions are. All honeys are not safe for bees. Cane sugar solutions are. Bees convert sucrose the same way no matter what the source as long as concentrations are the same. Bees overwinter best on cane sugar syrup as a winter feed. HCFS is next and honey last. (I overwinter my bees on honey, but not fall honey. I learned that error early in my beekeeping experience. There are may around me who do not worry about fall honey and claim good overwintering for their bees. Survival is not the same as good overwintering. My bees did survive but their honey crops were 1/5 what they are now. I know several beekeepers who feed sugar and their honey yields are the same as mine.) 2-Therefore honey is a better wound treatment than pure supersaturated sugar solutions. Some honeys are better than others. In fact, honey from bees fed nothing but cane sugar solutions is equivalent to honey from plant nectar with equivalent sucrose concentrations and would be as effective in wound treatment. (In the case of most of the studies, it is honey against honey/sugar syrup and not against its efficacy compared to modern techniques and drugs.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 > what is the LD50 for bee stings? Bee stings themselves have never killed anyone. What kills people is their own allergic reaction. The key question to be asked is about each individual's immune system, rather than about the venom. If a certain amount of bee venom were a reliable way to kill any animal, it would have been picked up long ago by primitive peoples as an arrow-tip toxin for hunting or warfare. It is not hard to figure out how to collect bee venom once you look at a bee sting imbedded in your arm. When I was a child, bee stings were a regular event among the group with which I played. We were often barefoot, and it was only a matter of time until someone stepped on a foraging bee. Bee stings were not a major event, and the only actual medication administered was a cookie. Most victims were back in the softball lineup before their turn at bat came up. The lack of bees over the past few decades means that a bee sting is a much more rare event, one that prompts both children and parents to over-react. The hilarious thing is the number of people who, when discovering that I am a beekeeper, solemnly inform me that they are "allergic" to bee stings. I sometimes try to explain that there is no such thing as a "Kamikazbee", that EVERYONE is slightly "allergic" to bee stings, that bee venom would not be an effective defense if it did not cause some localized swelling and discomfort, and that people who are truly allergic must be rushed to a hospital emergency room after a single sting, but I don't think this helps much. The bottom line is that encounters with bees have become too rare, and bees have been somehow become categorized with poisonous snakes as "deadly" in the mind of the public. Sometimes I think that we will not stop until every animal except cats and dogs are exterminated, and every outdoor space has the uniform appearance of a putting green. I've watched lots of animals all over the planet, and for pure viciousness, you can't beat the hummingbird. We had a large group this year, as many as 9 at the feeders at once. The mid-air scuffles were frequent enough that we moved the feeders further away from each other in a feeble attempt to "keep the peace". It made no difference - they still fought for advantage at the feeders so much, one was forced to wonder if feeders were a valid food source, or a net loss, something that prompted the hummingbirds to "go to afterburners" more often in offensive and defensive aerial acrobatic maneuvering. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: Wax foundation Comments: To: beekeeper@HONEYHILLFARM.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wade, > Do you have a certain minimum amount of honey that should be left on the > hives for your conditions? Wade read these links: First one here is for Unlimited broodnest or food chamber (Root's method). Which Keith uses so feeding is minimal: http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/ULBN.txt The next is a method for weighing up colonies without resorting to artificial feeds. http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/robinhood.txt This one is how to feed honey in emergency situation. http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/envelope.txt Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:44:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Granulating honey Daiell Dempsey stammered: > The farther frfrom7 degree F you keep the honey the > longer it will take to grgranulate Cold is better than Heat. Why 7F and farther which way - up or down? 57F is the ideal temperature for honey to granulate. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >Keith Benson quoted me: " Keith Benson just came back 'I have yet to see >this a standard medical therapy - in fact, it is just a fringe thing" and >added himself: " And your point? .......I can tell you that this is, in >fact, not a standard medical practice". > >Let me explain the point again - for those with ears to hear. > I heard you Robin, I simply do not agree. No need to get snippy. >Denigration of the research (without any sign u have read it) as a >'fringe' practice is simply not relevant. > Mmmm, but denigration of an oposing opinion when you haven't a clue as to what I have or have not read,or my level of expertise in this or related feilds is relevant? Do you have any mirrors in your house? > A fact (if it is a fact ) is a >fact whether recognised by a small group of reasearchers or by the general >run of vetenary practitioners. > Read more carefully. A) I never made any judgement as to whether honey could be used was a fact. B) I am not talking simply as "general run veterinary practitioner". It can indeed be used for wound care, it is not used this way in mainstream medicine. Why - there are better alternatives. Got nothing else? Use honey. Do this: Call 10 hospitals. Ask them when the last time was that they slathered a burn victim in honey. Please use standard hospitals in a developed nation, do not weight the sample by asking shaman/faith healers/voodoo preists. > Presumably if u had been around when >Galileo first mumbled that the earth revolves around the sun, u would have >said 'that's only a fringe view - can't see a multi-billion project to set a >man on Mars starting from that view, as there are many better theories based >on the earth being flat'. > This is a ridiculous argument and has nothing to do with this discussion. Do fringe theories become mainstream? Absolutely, many things start as fringe ideas, does that mean they were not on the finge at the time they originated? Nope, they clearly were, what of it? >It remains something of a puzzle why a group on this list is so insistent on >crushing any idea that natural honey could possibly be more than flavoured >sugar and , by extension, that sugar is as good a feed for bees as natural >honey. > One might wonder over the puzzle of why some folks insist on the need to "spin" honey to the consumer, as if it is not simply wonderful all on its own. > You claim knowledge of nutrition and medical practice - I would have >thought that , as a professional, u would read up the scientific papers ( >over 200 references in Honey and Healing) and take up the issues with the >scientists who did the work. > The scientists who did the work are not here, at least they have not spoken up. I am engaged in this conversation with you, Robin, and anyone else on the list. And I would ask you to read precisely what I wrote. I have said that the use of honey is not standard medical practice, veterinary or otherwise, I have stated that such use is fringe. That has nothing to do with the efficacy or lack therof found in the studies you posted. I have also stated that there are better, more consistant methods for dealing with wound healing. Do you have evidence to the contrary? I thought not. Re-read the studies and you will also see that most are not comparing honey vs standard medical management of wounds, they are comparing to hypertonic sugar solutions. I can pound nails into my frames with a rock. It works, but a hammer works better and my nail gun best. I personally doubt that [honey for wounds] will ever be more than fringe simply because it is difficult to use properly, takes too much time, there is too much variabilty in the product and there are more repeatable, verifiable methods of wound care in use today. That you feel it might not remian on the findge does not alter the fact that it is not a standard medical practice, or part of standard protocols, and is, at present, a fringe therapy. Don't extrapolate from there. Do I think there may substances in some honeys that could/should be harnessed for use in wound healing, sure, do I think the standard medical community would open itself up to liability by accessing these materials simply by slathering patients in honey? Nope. They would likely, if past history were any guide - and it often is, isolate the substances thought to be beneficial, and deliver them in a controlled, metered, fashion. MDs, DDSs, DMDs, DVMs, VMDs like that sort of thing. When they give/use a certain amount of something, they like to know precisely what they are giving/applying. Most patients like that too. Lawyers love it when they don't. > Instead u seem only to want to restrict debate >by deriding the concepts in principle, unread. > Once again Robin, you either haven't a clue as to what I have read, or are you simply unable to beleive that someone might read what you have read and not come to the same comclusions. I will tell you that I have not read that document, but I have read a few dozen articles on honey as a topical therapy. They were either wildly sensational or simply claimed that the stuff is moderately efficaceous and better than a simple super saturates sugar solution (likey because of the variable levels peroxide that can be generated by honeys). Haven't really seen one vs modern medical methods though. Quick question: How is it that when people suggest you are incorrect, they are restricting debate, but if you suggest they are not it is fair game? When people agree with you their minds are open, but when they disagree their minds are closed. Is it possible to disagree with you, be open minded, and un-restrictive? If so I would like to buy you a pint! > You even end your post by >seeking to associate 'open-mindedness' with gullibility - so anyone seeking >new knowledge is a fool? > Yet again my friend you have a singular ability to see what you want, not what is written.. How does the statement I made about not confusing "open-mindeness" and gulibility equate to the idea that anyone seeking new knowledge is a fool? > Stick to your own narrow views by all means but >may I suggest, in the interests of 'informed discussion on beekeeping issues >and bee biology' (let us remember the purpose of this list) that u would >help others more if u concentrated on presenting the evidence for your side >of the argument and less on knocking other posts without providing evidence. >Others on this list could then make up their own minds. > Once again, a point wanders, lonley and forlorne, having been missed entirely. > Lastly, I do not mind if u refer to me by my name, Robin Dartington, with >which I sign all posts. Christine Gray is the owner of the computer. > > Super, some of us were indeed wondering as people do funny things with their names/screen names in this medium. Robin it is. Cheers Keith "wishing he were Jim F at the moment as I could use a snappy line!!" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:01:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 Jim said: > Bee stings themselves have never killed anyone. A sweeping statement for you, Jim! How do you prove the negative? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:03:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wax foundation Keith replied: > Poor word choice on my part. I mean something like CAB or Agricola, > surfing the web for thisd on info will really frustrate one. I have found Agricola, but not CAB - can you give URL please? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hugo Tremblay Subject: Re: Bee sting LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>what is the LD50 for bee stings? Chris, here are some datas taken from The Hive and the honey bee 1992 ed. LD50 for bee venom: 2.8 mg/kg body wt Weight of venom per bee: 147 micrograms/bee Number of stings for LD50/kg body wt: 19 stings/kg *assuming all venom is injected examples: Child of 10 kg (22 lbs) = 190 stings for LD50 Child of 30 kg (66 lbs) = 570 Adult of 60 kg (132 lbs)= 1140 Adult of 90 kg (198 lbs)= 1710 Hope this helps Hugo Tremblay Alma, Quebec :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E.A. Vogt" Subject: drone function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All --- I constantly hear (in presentations, in popular bee literature, in the news media) that drones' sole function in the hive is for queen mating. Yet, I recall several years ago during my first exposure to beekeeping someone mentioning that if drones are removed, the hive is not quite "right". I inferred that drones are needed for some general hive "balance". Anyone know of any research published that indicates this ? Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt 13 hives and growing Vashon, WA USA (island west of Seattle) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:05:34 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I´m getting confused again! If ,for example,you use Langstroth or Dadant hives you have brood chamber(s) and supers, between brood chamber(s) and super(s) is a queen excluder i.e. no brood in super combs.Super combs are generally of 1/2 frame depth and not interchangeable with brood combs. If you feed bees sugar for winter it goes into the brood chamber, there are no supers on the hive.When the flow comes you put supers on above a queen excluder.Why would the bees put significant quantities of sugar-based honey up into the supers? If they are short of laying room it´s your fault, excess honey should be removed from the brood chamber and replaced with foundation.If you have to feed bees sugar in the main season the supers should be removed first.So how can sugar-honey get into the crop? I think it comes about by using identical frames in brood chambers and supers and swapping them around e.g hanging excess brood in a super to give laying room below or taking full super frames down into the brood chamber.This results in "honey" being extracted from brood comb ( which may well be contaminated with Coumaphos etc.).This sort of thing happens in Germany with Zander and DN hives of one frame size.That´s one reason why I use Dadant hives, shallow supers and queen excluders.This is all old hat but it still seems to be an issue. Some people give Dadant hives a full super of honey for winter which generally results in brood in super comb later, not a good idea. If super comb and brood comb are rigorously separated I don´t see how sugar honey can get into the crop ( at least not accidentally ) and the chances of miticide contamination of honey are reduced. Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:01:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A wet year (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/08/03 05:02:51 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Ok, solve this: It started raining here in January, continued thru the entire build up season, then at least ever two-three days during the nectar flow. >> Karen, This must have affected other pollinating insects as well as honeybees. Did you notice whether the flowering periods of plants were prolonged as a consequence, ie, did the plants wait around for the bees to arrive? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: "Organic" Wax (was "Wax foundation") In-Reply-To: <+nD3ebAvGmT$Ew5o@kilty.demon.co.uk> I said: >> I'd guess that handing the standards to a judge and >> mentioning the "Equal Protection" clause of the 14th >> amendment... and the "due process" requirement of the >> 5th amendment... James Kilty said: > will you translate this for a non-US person? The two amendments to the US Constitution I cited assure "fair and equal treatment under the law" to all citizens, and assure those with claims of unequal treatment "due process" in the form of review, oversight, censure, whatever. Its the old "level playing field" concept. Its not just a good idea, its the law of the land. (I think we copied the basic idea from British common law, didn't we? Something about the King's Court giving a fair hearing to all?) The organic standards as currently worded appear to amount to nothing less than a wholesale granting of very significant economic advantages to a very small group of producers without recourse. The retail price delta between "organic" and non-organic food can be considerable. (The actual net profits in organic food are not much better in many cases, but an organic farmer will never be left "stuck" with a crop, and will gross a much higher price per unit, so all he must do is control his costs.) In my view, there are a significant number of specific examples that, if briefly explained, would show that the proposed USDA standards for organic honey (as currently worded) make very generalized assumptions about specific types of land uses, and assume, perhaps incorrectly in many cases, that certain land uses in and of themselves render the land unfit for "organic" foraging. I'm not saying that the assumptions made are not accurate or reasonable "in general", but to flatly exclude anyone with a "golf course" near their hives from certifying as organic is silly. I agree that many golf courses are sprayed with so many chemicals that they allow extended playing time after dusk because the turf actually glows in the dark, but this does not imply that all of them are. I guess the extreme case would be a beekeeper with a miniature golf course near his hives. (The "turf" in miniature golf is indoor-outdoor carpeting, which is vacuumed rather than sprayed.) "Golf courses" are just one example of "labels" for land use. It is merely a simple and clear example. As a result, the proposed standards simply pre-select "winners" and "losers" in the marketplace, while doing nothing tangible to assure that even a single drop of the resulting "organic honey" is even uncontaminated, let alone "organic". So, if you keep bees in the middle of nowhere, you can consider "going organic". If you don't, you can't. Never mind the facts of the matter, never mind the specifics. And if you live in the middle of nowhere, you are trusted to exclude yourself from the program if you know of "non-organic" activities within the range of your bees. (Yeah right, and every single bottle of "Pure Sourwood Honey" sold really contains 100% Sourwood honey, uh huh, sure.) I think that the wording will be clarified over time as a result of specific "appeals", but why should mere beekeepers have to spend the time and money to point out such glaring problems to the "experts"? > I like the idea that bees might be selective in what they > bring back to the hive (and perhaps plants are selective in > what they put into nectar). But bees are not "selective" at all! There are constant reports of bees mistaking grain dust for pollen, sawdust for pollen, roof tar for propolis, etc. Heck, just this week I got a "swarm call" from the owner of a store and gas station who was sure he had a swarm in one of his waste cans by the door. This was one of the square types, with four openings covered by a "roof" of sorts, and the bees were certainly coming and going. The bees had stumbled upon the "empty" soft-drink cans in the garbage, each can having a small amount of very high-sugar "nectar" in it. I collected my fee not by removing a swarm, but by fabricating "swinging doors" for the trashcans from cardboard boxes and the beekeeper's universal tool, duct tape. The owner promised to order new can tops with proper "push to open" doors, and patted me on the back when I showed him two bees approach the can, circle, land, get confused, and leave again. (Its nice when a guy smiles while writing you a check for your "bee removal" fee.) > Is there an international comparison of pesticide contaminants > in honey in different countries with different agricultural and > non-agricultural land use practices? I dunno, but I doubt it. Beekeepers tend to be like fly fishermen. Neither wants to reveal his "good spots" to anyone. > Is there any study of changes over, say 40 years, in the mineral > content of honey, given the drastic degradation in nutritional > standards in fruit and veg over this time. Again, I dunno. I was not even aware that there was a "drastic" degradation in fruit and veggies. Offhand, I'd guess that it would be difficult to compare data collected using the techniques of 40 years ago to data collected with modern techniques. Not exactly "apples to apples", even if one were actually comparing apples to apples. jim (Who claims that all honey is "organic" by definition, unless it tests as contaminated, in which case it would no longer be fit to be sold at all.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:19:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/08/03 05:02:51 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I can tell you that this is, in fact, not a standard medical practice. I can also tell you that there are far more consistent, controllable, repeatable ways to do the things honey is touted to do as a topical therapy for wounds. This practice is not mainstream in this country, and therefore can be defined, in the context I used the term, fringe >> I attended a fascinating lecture a couple of years ago at the National Honey Show on the use of honey and other hive products for healing. In some places standard western medicines are either unavailable or unaffordable, Cuba and Burkina Faso were mentioned, and hive products are becoming the preferred mainstream treatment for some conditions. >From memory, the Cuban experience was that hospital patients with respiratory complaints who were treated with hive products were, on average, discharged in 2/3 the time of those treated conventionally. The difficulty, to which Keith indirectly alluded, is that western medicines are standard products defined in a pharmacopeiea, whereas hive products are variable. Therefore the physician has to develop additional skills and know that the light honey produced by Pablo's bees on the hillside is better for this condition whereas Pedro's honey from the forest is better for that, or it was last year. In summary, honey may not be consistent, controllable or repeatable but if it is all you have and likely to get then it is worth learning how to use it best. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:48:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Pesticide Use In-Reply-To: <058001c36bff$da92eb80$14a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <058001c36bff$da92eb80$14a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >Drifting drones surely spread varroa mites but the main cause of >reinfestation is *robbing*. I totally agree with Bob on this. Though there is natural variation in varroa infestation within an apiary, this is nothing compared with the numbers brought in by robbing out a colony weakened by varroa and on its last legs. Drifting might even equalise infestation, except in the end ones. In any case, drones travel between apiaries in search of virgins. As regards drifting, more important to keep efb down for me (we have very rare afb here in Cornwall UK and almost no acarine in my hives), most of my hives are on fixed stands in pairs, at angles to each other around the apiary, sometimes W, sometimes D. In some instances they are in a square or on pallets (facing 4 directions), distributed so as to associate with different landmarks. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:10:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: "Organic" Wax (was "Wax foundation") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <4be901c36b38$eea53190$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <4be901c36b38$eea53190$7604c518@gollum>, James Fischer writes >I'd guess that handing the >standards to a judge and mentioning the "Equal Protection" clause >of the 14th amendment to the US (as it applies to state laws) and >the "due process" requirement of the 5th amendment (as it applies >to federal laws) ought to be an easy slam-dunk. I normally love your posts Jim, but please will you translate this for a non-US person? >If we simply leave well enough alone, we have a product that >consistently tests at higher purity levels than any other food >product. Honey is perceived as "organic" by definition, and we >should not allow anyone, including a government agency, to suggest >otherwise. I like the idea that bees might be selective in what they bring back to the hive (and perhaps plants are selective in what they put into nectar). Is there an international comparison of pesticide contaminants in honey in different countries with different agricultural and non- agricultural land use practices? Is there any study of changes over, say 40 years, in the mineral content of honey, given the drastic degradation in nutritional standards in fruit and veg over this time. (I gather the old rule - eat 5 portions of fruit or veg a day - needs modifying since nutritional quantity has halved in 11 years (was it?) as proved by a Canadian study?) Hence the widespread interest in "organic" food. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::