From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:33 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4498648FD2 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdU011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0308E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 136928 Lines: 3031 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:43:23 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Wax foundation Robin said: > It remains something of a puzzle why a group on this list is so > insistent on crushing any idea that natural honey could possibly > be more than flavoured sugar I don't recall anyone ever claiming that honey was no more than "flavoured sugar". If the some points offered are viewed as "crushing ideas", it would simply be due to the concise and effective nature of the points made. The specific composition of honey is well-understood down to the parts-per- trillion level, so the non-carbohydrate trace-level components found in honey are also very well known. > Instead u seem only to want to restrict debate by deriding > the concepts in principle, unread. I don't know who "u" might be, but I am puzzled. How could going back to "first principles" be an ineffective way of thinking about an idea claimed to be "new"? Using first principles is less time-consuming, since it avoids the need to slog through a tedious point-by-point analysis of a new expression of an previously-addressed issue. Also, how could participation in a "debate" be an attempt at "restricting the debate"? Participation tends to encourage further debate. Is there any way to offer a divergent point of view on issues like this one that would not result in petulant cries of "foul"? Apparently not. If discussion results, it is labeled "crushing ideas" or "restricting debate". If no divergent views were offered, the list members would likely be accused of "ignoring" or "censoring" the same "idea". In a "meritocracy of ideas" like this mailing list, the fact that someone takes the time to respond is a sign of great affection and respect, moreso if they choose to offer contrasting views. The alternative is to be merely ignored, which would require much less effort. > and, by extension, that sugar is as good a feed for bees as > natural honey. I would think that your own bookshelf would have convinced you on this point. You recently cited the book "Some Important Operations in Bee Management", (1978 - IBRA) to the "irishbeekeeping" mailing list http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping and mentioned the work of E. F. Dill from 1925. While the focus of his work was "inverted" versus "uninverted" sugar syrups, it also compared both to honey. As I recall, the major points were: a) "Take Rate" From Feeders: Plain sugar syrup - 100% Invertase Inverted syrup - 86% Acid Inverted syrup - 30% Honey - 30% b) "The colonies fed uninverted sugar syrup lost fewest bees and least weight during the winter. Colonies fed invertase- inverted syrup lost more bees than colonies fed either uninverted syrup or honey, and lost twice as much weight as those fed uninverted syrup." (Review of the data would allow comparison of honey with uninverted sugar syrup.) That said, I think one must qualify one's criteria at least to the point of the length of time when cleansing flights would be fatal when discussing "feeds" and "overwintering". To me, the period that the bees are confined seems to be the mission-critical parameter. > You even end your post by seeking to associate > 'open-mindedness' with gullibility In defense of the person who may have made this association, I should point out that a COMPLETELY open mind can be taken over by the first foolish idea to wander in. > so anyone seeking new knowledge is a fool? No, but mere newly-minted expressions of theories long-discredited by science are, quite rightly, not viewed as "new", but are instead viewed as claims, that if left unchallenged, might mislead beginning beekeepers who stumble upon the archives of this list. Everyone wants to help. Everyone wants every beekeeper's hives to thrive. Few agree on everything. Most agree on a few things. Basic issues, like "what's in honey?" are well-known. a) Anyone who wants to claim that honey has some magical or mystical properties is welcome to do so, but are making completely unfounded claims without pointing to a specific set of components that can be shown to be present in honey. b) To extrapolate this unfounded claim to the point of making general conclusions about honey being somehow generally "better" as a feed for bees is to attempt to contradict the general consensus of the scientific evidence on record. c) To go even further, and lecture beekeepers about what they "should" or "should not do" given (a) and (b), may be what is prompting most of the more vigorous rebuttals. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:58:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET 8/28/03 5:02:08 AM >>> Hi Chris > what is the LD50 for bee stings? http://www.beevenom.com/Beevenomallergy.htm Reckons 1,000 - 1,100 >>>>>>>>>>>> If I remember correctly from my studies, LD50 stands for Lethal Dose for 50% of a population: the dose at which 50% of the population will die. Layne Westover College Station, Texas (but formally educated in Missouri and Utah. Texas A&M has a good entomology program too) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:27:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hugo Tremblay Subject: Re: LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James Fisher wrote: "Bee stings themselves have never killed anyone. What kills people is their own allergic reaction. " Jim, I must say I do not agree with you on this. When we speak about LD50 for bee venom, we talk about the toxicity of it, not the allergenic (?) potential of it. When one recieves say a thousand stings, it is the amount of venom injected in the body that is important. It is true that someone who is allergic (non-deadly one) to bee stings will have an allergic reaction upon recieving 1000 stings, but the toxicity of the venom will probably be the factor that will cause the most damages. When one is stung by a few bees, the body reactions (swelling, hives, rash, ...) are produced by the immune system. But when the LD50 of venom is reached, the body reacts because of the toxins, just like when someone gets bitten by a snake. Hugo Tremblay Alma, Quebec :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <086a01c36d83$7f0b3490$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > b) "The colonies fed uninverted sugar syrup lost fewest bees > and least weight during the winter. Colonies fed invertase- > inverted syrup lost more bees than colonies fed either > uninverted syrup or honey, and lost twice as much weight > as those fed uninverted syrup." (Review of the data would > allow comparison of honey with uninverted sugar syrup.) > > That said, I think one must qualify one's criteria at least > to the point of the length of time when cleansing flights > would be fatal when discussing "feeds" and "overwintering". > To me, the period that the bees are confined seems to be > the mission-critical parameter. True to an extent. Cleansing flights are a part of the solution of overwintering in cold climates when discussing high particulate honey, but the studies showed direct bee deaths with some feeds such as the inverted sugar, boiled sugar syrup, and tartaric acid added to boiled sugar syrup (which can invert sugar). The key here is that there are bee fatalities and the length of the overwintering period will determine survival if inferior feeds are used. In any case, the number of bees coming out of the winter is key to a good honey crop, not just winter survival, which makes cane sugar a superior feed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:23:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Bee stings LD50 In-Reply-To: <081b01c36d72$7e0ac440$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim wrote: >Bee stings themselves have never killed anyone. >What kills people is their own allergic reaction. >The key question to be asked is about each individual's immune system, rather than about the venom. Jim, perhaps I'm reading too much into your post, but I think that you may be confusing the venom reaction with the "true" allergic reaction. Virtually 100% of the population will react to venom. (The obvious exception being beekeepers who have acclimated themselves to a certain level of continuous exposure.) Only a small percentage of the population are allergic to bees. Those who are truly allergic: 1. will react to any amount of venom in a reaction far out of proportion to the reaction of the rest of the population. 2. will react to parts of the bee other than venom (legs, hairs, etc). The fact that bee venom activates the histamin pathways in a non-allergic person does not make it an allergen to him/her. People with allergies have fundamentally different reactions. Current allergy research says they are not just the tail end of the bell curve. The original question asking about the LD50 of bee stings (or bee venom) is a bell curve question targeting the mass of population and can be considered as independent of the biological pathways triggered by the venom (that is, the immune system). All that said, I agree with you that most people who say they are "allergic" are not. The extreme fear of bees would be funny if it weren't so sad. By the way, I think the more probable reasons that honeybee venom has not been "picked up long ago by primitive peoples as an arrow-tip toxin" include: 1) Hugo's post showing that it would take a relatively large amount of venom, making it a weak toxin compared to others available, 2) that the toxin is inherently dangerous to collect (Toxic frogs and plants, for example, don't sting back and are comparatively safe to handle.) and 3) that honeybees are an import from Western Europe. (If those cultures used honeybee venom as poison, it may be lost in the archeological record. And other cultures already had sources of arrow-tip poisons before the honeybee became established in their area.) 4) good arrow-tip poisons also have to have adhesive qualities - it has to stay on the tip during preparation, handling, firing and even through the puncture of hide/skin. Bee venom may not meet this critierion (I don't know it it's ever been tested). Mike Rossander (who has one life-threatening allergy and several lesser allergies but thankfully none to his bees) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <003a01c36d4d$6de772e0$3a7abc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 28 Aug 2003 at 10:33, Christine Gray wrote: > How does bee biology respond when bees are given an > artificial feed? Yes, it has to be done, YES< YES < YES. But what > follows? > What are the risks? OK, Robin we've got your question, and are NOT closed on the subject. But you haven't responded to the issue of why you insultingly continue to accuse the beekeeping industry of (criminally) producing "sugar honey." To be sure, there have been producers of "sugar honey;" we had one in the southeast. But they have been prosecuted, fined, and I hear, in one case, jailed. But that is a minority, and criminal element among beekeeping circles. Each time you run on with such broad accusations, you not only libel beekeepers, but you also devalue every jar of honey on sales shelves. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:15:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dave" : Christine, or Robin, or whoever... Get this and get this clear: WE DO NOT PRODUCE SUGAR HONEY! Quit muddying the discussion with your muddy thinking". Oh dear, done it again! Or rather Robin has - Christine is merely the patient provider of the computer. My crime was to write on 27 August: "When I recently referred to research on the value of honey in healing (as circumstantial evidence there is something in floral honey that is not in sugar honey) and referred to IBRA's 2001, 'Honey and Healing' which gives lectures given by five research scientists (the first ending with references to 97 journals, mostly medical and the second article ending with 155 references - and so on), Keith Benson just came back 'I have yet to see this a standard medical therapy - in fact, it is just a fringe thing". Now how Dave can interpret that as an assertion that he produces sugar honey leaves me totally and absolutely nonplussed . Is everything I write interpreted as a coded attack on professional beekeepers? It would not matter that Dave has this paranoia except that he goes on: "People ask me. "Do you feed sugar to your bees?" Of course I do, if they need it. I will not lie to them. But the feeding is NOT done when they are producing honey. It is done in the winter, or during a long period of adverse weather, or when they are contract pollinating a crop which does not produce honey. It is when bees are threatened with starvation, not when they are producing". The trouble with this is that there HAS been evidence posted to this list that some beekeepers do feed sugar not only when bees are starving but also as a deliberate practice to increase honey production. Dave's post therefore gives us his own practice but appears to deny that any other beekeeper might work differently. That is misleading . As we have wandered far from 'wax foundation' since I launched the thread on 20 August, I will start a new thread shortly on 'Sugar fed bees - origin and uses' in which we can discuss (calmly, objectively, with reference to science) the evidence in text books, on the net and on this list and in journals that some beekeepers thruout the world are feeding sugar to boost production - and we can consider the potential risks (if any) to the reputation of beekeeping and of honey as a pure product. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:52:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 27 Aug 2003 to 28 Aug 2003 (#2003-236) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill wrote: "...I overwinter my bees on honey, but not fall honey. I learned that error early in my beekeeping experience..." Could you elaborate a little on the problems of overwintering on fall honey and how one ensures that the bees have honey but not fall honey? Curiously, Mark hubbard@cofo.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:24:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: LD50 I'm inclined to agree with Hugo - massive venom injection would overload the body's systems that eliminate such toxins. Renal failure is most often mentioned as the cause of death, meaning the kidneys basically shut down: "Human victims of multiple bee or wasp stings have been reported and develop severe clinical signs and symptoms. Acute renal failure (ARF), usually due to acute tubular necrosis (ATN) was a frequent complication...." - from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9509559&dopt=Abstract Allergic responses would likely be overshadowed by renal failure, unless, of course, someone developed severe swelling that led to soffocation. The fact that you're used to being stung is unimportant. What you must know is that each sting, felt or not, represents a tiny injection of a toxin that the body must cleanse itself of, and many, many of these injections can stress the body's systems significantly. Remember the "L" in "LD" stand for "Lethal" /Curtis Crowell ....Used to being stung by still don't like it :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:10:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The posts from Keth Benson and Jum Fischer today (29 Aug) show the discussion started as 'Healthcare of bees', then carried forward as a side issue in 'Wax Foundation', is getting lost in side issues. Can anyone who has medical understanding help us to get back to the path? To remind all what the discussion is about: 1. Durk received a colony suffering from virus symptoms for treating homtoxicology; 2 I suggested the reason the colony had failed to resist virus might be due to feeding with sugar, causing dietary deficiency; 3 Dave objected to implied criticism of sugar feeding as his bees were fine - but that did not expain of course to why someone else's colony might be sick; 4 Keith refuted the suggestion of dietary deficency on grounds that all bees need is sugar and pollen (his case put the nutritionist view and needs further discussion in a later post) - Keith challenged me:"Can you name a necessary substance (not sugar), found in honey, but not syrup, that is not also found in far more massive quantities in pollen?" 5 As evidence that floral honey can have some component not available in sugar honey - presumably not in pollen as honey is used in healing on its own - I quoted research into the healing qualities of floral honey that has been shown to be more effective than sugar honey, giving the reference to IBRA, Healing and Honey, 2001, ISBN 0-85092-240-8. My point being that if honey had been found to act differently to sugar honey in healing, then we could not logically exclude the possibility that sugar honey was not equal to floral honey in other biological uses - it might be, it might not be, it would depend on where the difference lay and whether that difference was relevant in the other biological use (here, the development of bee grubs) . I would want to then take the argument on, that if there was that possibility, did anyone actually know? If not, was there any basis in reason for forming a hypothesis - and if so then perhaps we should then shut down the thread until more research was conducted, with everyone retaining their own opinion on the probabilities. But, as said, we are bogged down in irrelevancies and mis-information. The research on honey in healing is being denigrated unread, not accepted as evidence of some difference between floral and sugar honey. Keith is concerned it is only work on the fringe saying:"I have also stated that there are better, more consistant methods for dealing with wound healing. Do you have evidence to the contrary? I thought not." It is not relevant to the argument either way, but the evidence is given in Honey and Healing if Keith would only look. Keith again:" I will tell you that I have not read that document, but I have read a few dozen articles on honey as a topical therapy. They were either wildly sensational or simply claimed that the stuff is moderately efficaceous and better than a simple super saturates sugar solution (likey because of the variable levels peroxide that can be generated by honeys). Haven't really seen one vs modern medical methods though." Because he has not looked at Honey and Healing, which republishes articles by scientists that have been peer-reviewed and first published in Bee World to other scientists the world over. So , A CRY FOR HELP! Would someone with medical understanding review Honey and Healing for the benefit of the members of this list, as anything I try to put forward is so resisted. We might then, just might, be able to get back to the discussion on possible causes of vulnerability of bee colonies to virus attack. Robin Dartington (who admits to sometimes liking to wind people up, but is trying hard to reform - and offers this unexceptional post as an example of good behaviour). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:30:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Vicious Hummingbirds [was bee stings LD-50] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim's all-too-serious discussion of hummingbirds [ :) ] had me remembering a few years back, when I had planted an old English variety of pole bean (Goliath, if I remember correctly). They had deep red flowers, and were relished by the local hummers (as well as the bumbles, of course). One day I was picking beans, and noticed one hell of a commotion right over my head. It was two hummers engaged in a dogfight worthy of top-gun status. I think they went at it for a solid four or five minutes before they both disappeared. The curious part of it all was that the hummingbirds were completely oblivious to me, a mere foot or two below them. This scene repeated itself two or three times over the course of the summer. Kinda reminded me of when I used to hang out at bars... Yep, vicious. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:30:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: cane sugar In-Reply-To: <3F4F5F65.5000704@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell a écrit > [...] which makes cane sugar a superior feed. Anecdote: I visited an apiary in Guadeloupe (small caribean island) in February. Of course, they have local cane sugar production. But the beekeeper reported more diseases when using cane sugar syrup and did not use it any longer. Hervé Qc, Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Propolis & Pines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy folks, Both of the locations I have hives border large expanses of white pine & = fir. Both areas seem to produce a large amount of very gooey propolis, = regardless of bee races (mixed NWC, Russian hybrids, Italians). =20 I recently had a chance to look at some hives in an agricultural area = (few trees, very few pines), and noticed almost no propolis in his = hives. Are pines (and other conifers) known to increase propolis = production? What other major plants do bees utilize for propolis? Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:23:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: cane sugar In-Reply-To: <20030829193016.58485.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: > Anecdote: I visited an apiary in Guadeloupe (small > caribean island) in February. Of course, they have > local cane sugar production. But the beekeeper > reported more diseases when using cane sugar syrup and > did not use it any longer. Depends on the point in the production process at which they used it. Fully refined is good. Anywhere else in the process is bad. Beet sugar is even worse anywhere else except the final sugar. Lots of information in the literature about this, including bees having lots of problems around sugar mills. Also, if they fed it exclusively, that is bad. It is a supplemental feed for overwintering and for drought, but not as a continuous feed. We toss around the word "sugar" as if it is one thing but it is a chemical class composed of many different compounds. It is only when we refer to sucrose, glucose, fructose... that we pin down what we are really talking about. If you look at my post I singled out sucrose which is the product of sugar cane at the final refined stage. I agree with others comments on the tone of one poster in this thread (not you Hervé. I always appreciate you insight). Little science, a lot of distortion of others views or practices, and a condescending attitude. And never any humor. They take themselves much too seriously. Gertrude Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:17:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: cane sugar In-Reply-To: <20030829193016.58485.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:30 PM 8/29/03 +0200, you wrote: > they have local cane sugar production. But the beekeeper >reported more diseases when using cane sugar syrup and >did not use it any longer. Was this refined cane sugar? I think it's well known that unrefined or brown sugar causes problems. I suspect their sugar was not as processed as the pure white cane sugar we are use to from the supermarket. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) In-Reply-To: <002001c36e58$db9d4380$b290bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >5 As evidence that floral honey can have some component not available in >sugar honey - presumably not in pollen as honey is used in healing on its >own - I quoted research into the healing qualities of floral honey that has >been shown to be more effective than sugar honey, giving the reference to >IBRA, Healing and Honey, 2001, ISBN 0-85092-240-8. My point being that if >honey had been found to act differently to sugar honey in healing, then we >could not logically exclude the possibility that sugar honey was not equal >to floral honey in other biological uses - it might be, it might not be, it >would depend on where the difference lay and whether that difference was >relevant in the other biological use (here, the development of bee grubs) . > If I am not mistaken, Bill, in a very thorough post explained the activity of topical honey the the basis of the benefits of using such, he also mentioned some of the pitfalls, which is why I suspect some have chosen to disregard what he has written. "Another key enzyme is glucose oxidase. Its concentration will determine the difference between most honeys and their efficacy in wound treatment. (It is an interesting enzyme. It keeps honey from fermenting by making hydrogen peroxide at any honey/water interface. So it creates hydrogen peroxide at the contact point of honey and a wound, and the wound is continually awash in Hydrogen peroxide as long as there is plenty of glucose oxidase.) " Where honey shows improved activity vs. unprocessed sugar syrup is, in large part due to peroxide release which is more a factor of processing time than the chemical makeup of honey. I believe that it was posted here that "honey" made from sugar syrup (we really need a more precise word than that for this material) is equivalent in terms of generating peroxides when the initial concentration of sucrose approximates that of nectar. Yep, once again, courtesy of Bill: "In fact, honey from bees fed nothing but cane sugar solutions is equivalent to honey from plant nectar with equivalent sucrose concentrations and would be as effective in wound treatment. " So the mystery substance you have identified (well, OK - someone else identified it for you) in a backhanded way is peroxide. I will suggest thought, that a better source would be Boots the Chemist, he sells a 3% solution that is excellent for wound management and won't leave the patient all sticky. He/she won't taste as sweet though. Since this (glucose oxidase) is added by the bees, and is not present in the nectar, I would ask you, how is it that you got from the observation that honey is used in the odd case in medicine and somehow transformed that into an explanation of the superiority of honey over sugar syrup? In other words, when I asked the following very specific, simple question: "Can you name a necessary substance (not sugar), found in honey, but not syrup, that is not also found in far more massive quantities in pollen?" What you really should have said was, simply, no. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:24:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: cane sugar In-Reply-To: <3F4FB64B.2020307@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will point out that 90% of all flower nectar is a sucrose sugar solution. Charlie Harper Bill Truesdell wrote: I singled out sucrose which > is the product of sugar cane at the final refined stage. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:32:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dave" But you haven't responded to the issue of why you insultingly > continue to accuse the beekeeping industry of (criminally) > producing "sugar honey." > Your post crossed with one from me promising to start a new thread to take the issue of sugar honey head on. But I do not understand why u continue to take all this so personally. If I have ever insulted the beekeeping industry it was inadvertent and I would want to withdraw it. But have I? This thread started with wondering how a sick colony brought to in for homotoxicoligy treatment could have become unable to resist virus. Is that likely to have been a professionally managed colony - I would guess rather an amateur's. "Each time you run on with such broad accusations, you not only > libel beekeepers, but you also devalue every jar of honey on sales > shelves". I would have thought this list was full of honey producers rather than consumers. We can discuss in private. It is, in my view, far more dangerous to beekeeping to sweep this issue under the carpet - and risk more new beekeepers taking up a doubtful practice - if it is doubtful, if anyone is doing it - which we can look at shortly under a new head '.Sugar honey - fact or myth, a threat or a possible benefit' , or some such title. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:36:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Keith Benson" "> Since this (glucose oxidase) is added by the bees, and is not present in > the nectar, I would ask you, how is it that you got from the observation > that honey is used in the odd case in medicine and somehow transformed > that into an explanation of the superiority of honey over sugar syrup?" I didn't. I have referred, repeatedly, to the lectures by 7 scientists reprinted in Honey and Healing, which go way way beyond just refering to liberation of hydrogen peroxide at the wound face and include comments on floral honey having properties not found in sugar honey. Try Molan on page 19, reporting on the action of honey on peptic ulcers in rats ........".There was no protection from either agent if a sugar mixure simulating honey was used in place of honey, showing that the protection is due to a component of the honey other than the sugars". The studies (far, far more than reports of the odd use here and there) indicate (to me) that there is scientific evidence that honey is more than sugar. Whether that means honey is superior to sugar in another situation is another step to consider - it does not follow automatically from the fact of a difference, but I will make a case that it may. In another post I have appealed for help from a medical person to review Honey and Healing for this list, as it is being continually undervalued without inspection. It says and explains for example (page 8) "Honey is effective in clearing infection from wounds where other treatments have failed. One report (EFEM S E E (1988), Clinical observations on the wound healing properties of honey , British Journal of Surgery 75: 629-681) gave the results of treating with honey dressings 47 patients with wounds and ulcers which had been treated for one month to two years with conventional therapy (including antibiotics) with no sign of healing, or the wounds were increasing in size". This seems to answer your repeated assertions that there are better and cheaper ways to heal. Honey and Healing is however crammed with medical words, and I do hope we will be offered a summary for beekeepers by someone qualified to understand it better than I. Keith said: "When I asked - Can you name a necessary substance (not sugar), found in honey, but not syrup, that is not also found in far more massive quantities in pollen?. What you really should have said was, simply, no". What I have said is that I am not a scientist, I can only quote others, which I do, ad nuseam. If it was pollen that had the healing properties , it would be mentioned in the reports - but I have seen no mention. So I infer, whatever is in honey that distinguishes it from sugar honey, that component is not in pollen. So, in the meantime before we have a qualified summary, I do not feel I should 'just say NO'. IS THERE A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE? PLEASE HELP SOMEONE. WE ARE ALL DROWNING . Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:49:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/08/03 05:02:20 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << You don't keep a strain or hybrid of Amm by any chance? This is classic behavior for Amm or hybrids, do you have a problem with swarming and slow build up as well? >> They are local mongrels with a largeish proportion of Amm. They do swarm from time to time if conditions are right for that. The usual stimulus seems to be intermittent poor weather but they can go for years without swarming: the grandmother of these bees was in her 4th year when she went and I think she was superseded -there was no obvious drop in population or yield as one would expect if they had swarmed. Some time ago I looked back over about 20 years of records of swarms taken and lost and the peak swarming time is between 20th and 30th May with the earliest and latest being 24th April and 4th September. Without checking the records again, my imprression is that a good half the swarms are in that peak time. Their build up is appropriate for the area. I don't take them around chasing fields of early rape or similar industrial crops so there is no great benefit in having an unseasonably early build up. So my bees do swarm and do build up slowly but I don't regard these matters as problems. I bought a new boiler suit after the stinging episode and have been back to that hive and the one next door since and the bees hardly looked at me. Perhaps I should chuck the suit in the washing machine more often! Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: LD50 "But when the LD50 of venom is reached," It's actually the LD for the individual. If the exact LD 50 for bee venom could be worked out, which is of course impossible, there would not likely be any person in the world who's lethal dose would be the same as this number. Having said that, I agree with you, Hugo. It doesn't matter what the cause of death is, just the amount of bee venom that it takes to kill an average person. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: LD50 In-Reply-To: <200308292318.h7TN3swf017202@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:18 PM 8/29/2003 -0400, you wrote: >It doesn't matter what the cause of death is, just the amount of >bee venom that it takes to kill an average person. With bee stings there is a great deal of variation depending on location of stings on the same individual especially when considering normal reactions or even mild allergies. A swollen hand, while painful, is not life threatening like a swollen throat caused by the same amount of poison. So it becomes a complicated picture considering method of application (injection,stings, crystalline dust, etc.), location of application, and even the current condition of the individual (stress, other alergens in the system, etc.). So even if an LD50 was known, it would be of little use to asses an individuals risk. LD50 values are a good measure with large populations, but are of little when applied to individuals, and even less under widely varying conditions, at least with things as variable as bee stings. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:15:43 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The treatment of infections or wounds with unheated honey has given good = results and is often used as a last resort when antibiotic resistance is = present. In many cases the only other option would be amputation. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:40:34 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I believe that it was posted here that "honey" made from sugar syrup = (we really need a more precise word than that for this material) << Keith, how about "shunny". Best regards Roger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:08:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris joked:" I bought a new boiler suit after the stinging episode and have been back to > that hive and the one next door since and the bees hardly looked at me. Perhaps > I should chuck the suit in the washing machine more often!" Many a true word is spoken in jest. Avoiding stings is important for all beekeepers, as Hugo has explained. So perhaps we should think more aout what stimulates the stinging reflex. Are we all agreed it is a defensive behaviour, not natural aggression? If so, what makes a colony feel it is under attack ? Usually, it is rough handling if I may judge from watching at apiary meetings - and bees are very sensitive to vibration. But bees also have very acute sence of smell. In UK, it is common practice to warn people not to wear perfume or even sun blocker when going to bees - perhaps that is continuance of old myths but I would not want to stop giving out that advice. But how often do we think of Chris' point - that when u handle one colony you must to an extent pick up its unique scent, particularly on your hands, to an extent on your jacket . Then we open the next and thrust that scent into the heart of the new colony. Bees are also affected by weather - sometimes all is sweetness and sometimes they are edgy. I can often handle my colonies without a veil, but on bad days I wash off my stingproof rubber gloves before opening the next hive. Has anyone any comment on the relative importance of the different stimuli bees receive that trigger off stinging? To put the same question another way - what is a good list of do's and don'ts to avoid stinging, for passing on to beginners. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:59:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/30/2003 4:47:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: But how often do we think of Chris' point - that when u handle one colony you must to an extent pick up its unique scent, particularly on your hands, to an extent on your jacket . Then we open the next and thrust that scent into the heart of the new colony. I don't use my smoker on my hives unless I need bees to move or get squashed. I have it lit, however, whenever I am working the bees. I use it on my gloves in between hives. I also use it to mask the smell of a squished bee or a bee sting. Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 18 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:20:58 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I feed honey toast to my 8 dogs and 2 parrots on a daily basis and they = are all healthy. It's not such a good idea to feed honey to dogs. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:58:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pierre MacKay Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 Comments: cc: dgw1@nyu.edu In-Reply-To: <003601c36ed6$7f251820$eb90bc3e@oemcomputer> (message from Christine Gray on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:08:28 +0100) Christine Gray proposes one way that smell may trigger a stinging reflex in honey-bees. I have a related query that results from purely anecdotal observation. I have only one hive, (and the hornets may not even have left me that), so my approach does not signal any invasion by foreign bees. In fact, it does not seem to signal any sort of invasion at all. I can do major relocation on the hive (wearing mask and gloves, of course) and I have no sense that the bees, who are definitely cross, have any idea that it is me who is doing it. They mill around, saying "What, what? where?" but do not target the mask, the gloves or any other part of me. My suspicion is that the first sting is what counts. Is it possible that the human reaction to being stung is an inadvertent change in odor which the bees can recognize and home in on? Back to the hornet experience. . . . I tried sitting outside the hive after applying my own hand-made excluder (cardboard with ring-binder holes punched in it and a clear plastic flap over half the hole diameter) and must have squashed some 70-80 hornets in two hours as they emerged. Since their nest must be a fair distance away---I cannot find it---they must have signalled to one another that there was a good target nearby. Do hornets (huge whitefaced black hornets) dance like honey-bees? Pierre MacKay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:10:13 -0400 Reply-To: Karen DeHond Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen DeHond Subject: no honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have just resubscribe after a years absence. We have had 2 active = hives all summer but they don't seem to be producing honey in the = supers, it has been fairly rainy this year but lots of sunshine too. = Any ideas. We're in upstate NY Thank you Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What type bees do you keep? Some bees work better under bad conditions. > Try unlimited brood nest management. Keith, Both italian and NWC (and one SMR/NWC mix). Had Cordovans (sp?) the first year, but harder to find. Nothing to do with brood nest management of bee types (the italians are larger in general, yes, although the NWC/SMR mix has the largest number of bees, oddly). It simply rained nearly EVERY SINGLE DAY all spring. With no break, all the nectar in flowers like tulip poplar simply washes away. Prior years, nowhere near this much rain, no problem. Ths year, no one in this part of the state got much of anything (unless they moved bees to clover somewhere after the main flow ended in mid-june -- not many places like that here). > Leave plenty of honey on hives for dearth periods. If you read my posts, perhaps you could pay attention to the part where there is NO honey to leave for the bees. I took zero, the bees have zero. Feed or they die. > Allow the bees to build up their brood nest using Nectar instead of sugarsyrup. Gee, no kidding. Had I, in fact, fed syrup this year in early spring, they might have made 4-5 lbs extra (instead, they would start buildign up, then consume all their stores, et one day out, maybe two in a week, then back to more rain). > Dee Lusby in a dessert does alright not feeding sugar syrup and > by gawlee it > gets pretty hot and dry in her neck of the country. I doubt that "hot and dry" means much of anything in the issue of feeding syrup vs honey, unless it is so hot and dry there are no flowers to forage at all. > through our winters and a beekeeper should kill the bees in the fall. Someone at EAS was advocating the same for all northern beekeepers. From a purely economic standpoint, it might make sense for him. But, in this part of the country, our flow is over early -- you would never break even from a monetary standpoint and get very little honey. Not to mention your neighbors would get upset when those homeless bees started getting feisty. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <003901c36d4d$6c97c160$3a7abc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Christine Gray > > I have referred to the booklet published by International Bee Reasearch > Association (tel: +44 (0)29 2037 2409, web:www.ibra,org,uk, e-mail: > mail@ibra.org.uk) , Honey and Healing, 2001 - ISBN: 0-85092-240-8. This > contains five lectures by scientists on their recent work on the healing > capacity of honey. The studies included comparison with sugar honey which > was found not as effective. The reports I have seen on this indicated the control used in the study was a sugar syrup (not "honey" produced by bees using sugar syrup). The point being to test whether just the sugar concentration alone was creating the effect. Of course, I find more interesting that our local "health food" store carries several imported honeys, including Manuka (at a considerable price). No warning is made to the consumer that it tastes quite vile (at least the sample brought to a taste testing last year did) or that it is for use in the medicine chest, not in your tea. The only local honey they carry is being practically given away (at less than even the average retail for this area), as many people on that side of town still equate local with "cheap" and imported with "better" or "more expensive". Two generations ago, many had bees in the city and gave away their excess -- some of that generation still seem to apologize for charging for their harvest (and haven't adjusted their prices in 10 or more years). > It remains something of a puzzle why a group on this list is so insistent on > crushing any idea that natural honey could possibly be more than flavoured > sugar I doubt they will argue that. And the commercial ones get the privilege of paying for the studies that we can then use to show the benefits of honey versus sugar. > and , by extension, that sugar is as good a feed for bees as natural > honey. But the above is for people. Bee nutrition is not the same. Whether they are "healthier" or not probably depends more on climate and the type of honey (since all these bees are out of their natural range, where the insect and nature grew in harmony to find the "best" mutual solution. What is known (as fact) is that over wintered bees in some northern areas are healthier on stored sugar syrup, rather than stored natural nectars, due to the nature of the nectars in those areas. > You claim knowledge of nutrition and medical practice - I would have > thought that , as a professional, u would read up the scientific papers ( > over 200 references in Honey and Healing) I doubt the wound healing properties of honey (esp. their use on burns and stubborn infections) has much to do with their nutritional value. The two have no relationship, unless you can show that the same values that kill bacteria when honey is at one moisture solution have a similar affect on bees after being watered down and consumed. > > Lastly, I do not mind if u refer to me by my name, Robin Dartington, with > which I sign all posts. Christine Gray is the owner of the computer. > Presumanbly when u get a business letter u reply to whoever signed the > letter rather than just to Barcklay's Bank? Actually, if I get a letter under tone person's letterhead, but signed by another, I either assume it is forged, stolen letterhead or an administrative assistant that signed it, depending on the content. Not knowing Christine, it is difficult to make any assessment. The main point was, that we receive a messages labeled "from Christine", hit reply and "Christine" is entered for us automatically. Only those who go to the trouble of going to the bottom and pasting your name back at the top indicate we are talking to Robin, not Christine. And in the archive, all your emails are sorted by the name "Christine". Email accounts are free (and isn't she tired of getting your bee posts in her email, anyway?), email clients easy to set up to handle more than one. Karen -- show doesn't share her email with others in the house. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <3F4E6000.1090406@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Keith Benson > > Do this: Call 10 hospitals. Ask them when the last time was that they > slathered a burn victim in honey. Please use standard hospitals in a > developed nation, do not weight the sample by asking shaman/faith > healers/voodoo preists. While India, Pakistan, Thailand, New Zealand and Australia might not all be what you consider "standard hospitals in developed nations", I doubt they quite fall to the level of faith healers or voodoo priests. All have published recent research in this area (some sponsored by EU hospitals). I doubt you'll see any in the US soon, for two reasons: 1) no research money and 2) lawsuit happy americans -- if you died after begin treated with honey, your heirs would sue "somebody" -- even if you would have died anyway and you set yourself on fire in the first place (and probably win). Pehaps instead of name calling, we could go back to discussing bees and/or honey or even honey for healing? > One might wonder over the puzzle of why some folks insist on the need to > "spin" honey to the consumer, as if it is not simply wonderful all on > its own. Anyone who thinks consumers buy things that are "simply wonderful on their own" lives in a backwater state that has no marketing dollars spent in it (sorry Keith). Honey must compete in a marketplace where ketchup now comes in designer colors and where sugar or corn syrup is the main ingredient in any commercial product with "honey" on the label (even honey mustard from sue bee is mostly corn syrup). The sugar industry spent many dollars over many years to convince the public that all sweeteners were the same (and it seves them right that HFCS now beats them out, although it does make soft drinks taste pretty awful). If all sweeteners are the same in teh consumer's eye, they buy on price (and honey loses big time here). > do I think the standard medical community would open itself up to liability > by accessing these materials simply by slathering patients in honey? that is where the main problem in using this will lie. Even if honey were a better solution, no hospital would allow it, unless their insurance company first OK'd it and guaranteed coverage for the lawsuits that followed (and who would pay for the extra ant treatments or keeping flies away from the wound dressings?). More ilkely, the resarch will be used to create an artificial, proprietary, patented product that also delivers peroxide to wounds under the dressing. One of my personal favorite patents in this area: they guy who patented mixtures containing beeswax for use in treating any type of skin burn (human or animal, from sunburn to life threatening). Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:09:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wax Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/08/03 05:03:51 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << a) Anyone who wants to claim that honey has some magical or mystical properties is welcome to do so, but are making completely unfounded claims without pointing to a specific set of components that can be shown to be present in honey. >> Jim, A masterly analysis as always, but would you like to expand it a little to comment upon: a) possible synergistic effects of the volumetrically minor components of honey; and b) placebo effects. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: A wet year (was wax foundation) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This must have affected other pollinating insects as well as > honeybees. Did > you notice whether the flowering periods of plants were prolonged as a > consequence, ie, did the plants wait around for the bees to arrive? Chris, Yes, some things seemed to bloom longer, others were confused. Pineapple sage bloomed early (mid-spring), stopped and should still bloom on time in Sept. I'm still picking blueberries, although they are usually long gone. But, many days I could fine alternate pollinators out in force and the bees camping out, as it had just stopped raining or looked about to start again (it was grey and overcast for weeks on end -- it even made the news farther north, as SAD incidences were way up and occurring well into spring. But I didn't notice black locust or tulip poplar staying open longer (and the rain beat off blooms at a high rate, so that may have contributed). Poplar forms such a big cup, any rain will dilute or wash out the nectar - other things were mainly affected by the bees simply being unable to get out of the house for long at a time. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:52:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cane sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/08/03 05:03:51 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << And never any humor. >> Oh, yes there is! Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Vicious Hummingbirds [was bee stings LD-50] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, We had a hummer we named Attila the Hum. He would wait around the side of the house for any of the other locals to visit "His" feeder, then attack, or he would sit guard on the Wisteria next to the feeder and dare any potential intruder to visit his feeder, and we too had the "Dog Fight" only one ended up on the deck and had to be retrieved before the cat had a "bite" so I held him until he revived! What an experience. They are an incredible little bird. Sort of like a terrier-more guts than brains!! Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:50:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Propolis & Pines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote: Both areas seem to produce a large amount of very gooey propolis, regardless of bee races (mixed NWC, Russian hybrids, Italians). .....in an agricultural area (few trees, very few pines), and noticed almost no propolis in his hives. Are pines (and other conifers) known to increase propolis production? What other major plants do bees utilize for propolis? It is interesting that bees are keen to gather propolis when it is available. They seem to feel the need; and the uses to which they put it are well known: gap stopping, varnishing in cells and hive parts, keeper bedevilment, intruder encapsulation, steering wheel stickifier etc. Some of the qualities and uses of propolis are also known: toothpaste additive, local anaesthetic, sore throat cure, anti everything harmful product etc. Is there any study to show that hives where there is plenty of propolis are any more or less healthy/productive/happy/stroppy etc than where there is a dearth? To answer Todd's second question: poplars. As an afterthought, a possible stimulus to propolis gathering is the beekeeper having got the bee-space wrong. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:19:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Organic bee products In-Reply-To: <200308290400.h7T3wTwT014608@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: "Zero tolerance is zero tolerance." in reference to organic bee products. My thoughts, random as they may be, are as follows: If one wants to produce totally organic honey without the possibility of contamination by foreign substances, then the hive will have to be located outside of flight range of any/most other human occupation zones. Farms within the flight range that use pesticides are definite sources of contamination. I think to get totally free organic products with the work force we use (bees)is going to be almost a complete impossibility. Of course, my thinking might be wrong in this. Mike Whose thinking apparatus seems to be getting worse as age progresses. :) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:16:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone identify these berries we saw on PEI? Picture at http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/stan1.jpg allen ...who never talks about himself in the third person http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/ Our summer trip to the East, protesting the protectionist Canadian embargo against imports of US bees, and more... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:06:43 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: honey and healing > I believe that it was posted here that "honey" made from sugar syrup > (we really need a more precise word than that for this material) OK, how about one of these? "Force-feeding, a Reprehensible Activity Used by Dummies" (F.R.A.U.D.) "Criminally Regurgitated Ingested Muck, Eventually Seized" (C.R.I.M.E.S.) "Sugars Used Criminally and Knowingly in a Sweetener" (S.U.C.K.S.) "Criminally Adulterated Non-honey, Duping Youth" (C.A.N.D.Y.) "Carbohydrates Repackaged - Always Prosecuted" (C.R.A.P.) "Sweetener Using Generic Added Rehydrated Sugar" (S.U.G.A.R.S.) "Fraudulent Enhancement Listed as Overall Net Yield" (F.E.L.O.N.Y.) "Laughably Obvious Over-feeding of Sugar, Eventually Rejected" (L.O.O.S.E.R) "Misrepresentation, Undertaken and Continued Knowingly" (M.U.C.K.) "Simulated Hydrocarbons that Insects Transform" (work it out yourself) I could go on, but you get the idea... jim (A charter member of 'AAAAA', the American Association for the Advancement of Acronym Abuse) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:50:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Paradigm Shift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In recent years, we've noticed a shift from rule-based, linear thinking to a point where we now understand our world more in terms of probabilities than in terms of certainties. The shift to IPM from rule-based treatment regimes is one example. I came a cross a quote at http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2003/20030829/default.htm that I think, with a little adaptation, can apply very well to beekeeping: "Indeed, given our inevitably incomplete knowledge about key structural aspects of our ever-changing (environment) and the sometimes asymmetric costs or benefits of particular outcomes, a (beekeeper) seeking to maximize its probability of achieving its goals is driven, I believe, to a risk-management approach (). By this I mean that (beekeepers) need to consider not only the most likely future path for the (hive or apiary in question) but also the distribution of possible outcomes about that path. They then need to reach a judgment about the probabilities, costs, and benefits of the various possible outcomes under alternative choices..." My substitutions are in parentheses. Apologies to Alan Greenspan allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: "Organic" Wax (was "Wax foundation") In-Reply-To: <08db01c36db9$52a1ab10$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > James said: > > I'm not saying that the assumptions made are not accurate > or reasonable "in general", but to flatly exclude anyone > with a "golf course" near their hives from certifying as > organic is silly. I would have to agree. Even if sprayed heavily, when was the last time you saw bees foraging on tightly cropped grass (clover would never be allowed on a maintained course that sprays -- it won't grow well if they even fertilize heavily). If the assumption is that the runoff ends up in the ponds and bees might get water there, then alternate, closer water sources would eliminate that worry. Most chemicals that would affect organic status in food would also negatively effect bees themselves. And I've seen much more irresponsible use by individuals on their lawns than at courses that must be kept according to professional standards. I know people that still have both Chlordane and DDT in their garages, "just in case" they want to use them (as well as many now banned lawn treatments). I would be more concerned with being close to one of these guys than a golf course (and not just for my honey, but for the bees). > (Yeah right, and every single > bottle of "Pure Sourwood Honey" sold really contains > 100% Sourwood honey, uh huh, sure.) Mountain folk wouldn't lie, Jim. Please ignore all those sumac you see flowering close to the (much fewer in number) sourwood trees, we get our bees to put that honey in a different super, you see. > But bees are not "selective" at all! There are constant > reports of bees mistaking grain dust for pollen, sawdust > for pollen, roof tar for propolis, etc. > > The bees had stumbled upon the "empty" soft-drink > cans in the garbage, each can having a small amount > of very high-sugar "nectar" in it. Yet another non-organic source of "nectar" -- even if you are in the middle of nowhere. And we always have bees try to gather sawdust after cutting any trees. > Again, I dunno. I was not even aware that there was a "drastic" > degradation in fruit and veggies. I believe that refers to recent studies which "prove" that organically raised fruits and vegetables are higher in certain nutrients, compared to "standard" crops. I have also seems studies that looked at micronutrients on standard farm crops -- they have gone down over the years, as they are removed from the soil and never replaced. However, my bees forage on mature trees in a forest, unlogged for approx 100 years -- I doubt there is any difference in the nutrition of the honey from when my grandfather started here 50 years ago. > > jim (Who claims that all honey is "organic" > by definition, unless it tests as > contaminated, in which case it would > no longer be fit to be sold at all.) Absolutely. -Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:37:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Organic bee products In-Reply-To: <20030830231908.1424.qmail@webmail03.roc.frontiernet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:19 PM 8/30/2003 +0000, you wrote: >I think to get totally free organic products with the work >force we use (bees)is going to be almost a complete impossibility. Of >course, my thinking might be wrong in this. I agree. Virtually any human activity ouside the beekeepers control means spraying is a good possibility. This not only includes farm fields, but roadways and drainage ditches (as many counties, at least where I live, spray to control both weeds, woody growth and insects along roads and roadside ditches and drainage ditches. In my part of Ohio the ground is so flat many ditches have little grade to them so there often is stagnant water.) So even if one owned 2-3 miles in every direction, you still couldn't control the spraying due to roads and county ditches. The standard is virtually impossible to meet and completely unreasonable in my opinion. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:00:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic bee products In-Reply-To: <20030830231908.1424.qmail@webmail03.roc.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mike Stoops writes; If one wants to produce totally organic honey without the possibility of contamination by foreign substances, then the hive will have to be located outside of flight range of any/most other human occupation zones. Farms within the flight range that use pesticides are definite sources of contamination. Reply: Quite ture, but not impossible to obtain if one really wants to and looks around. Think there might be a market then for bees that have never seen chemicals, drugs, essential oils, acids or FGMO for treatments, and are raised on combs same way that have been all melted down and retooled from scratch? Say broodnest comversion packages of 5 frame nucs with laying queens? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:37:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris said: Perhaps > I should chuck the suit in the washing machine more often!" Wash your bee suit and wash often! I have worked bees with beekeepers with dirty sting riddled suits getting stings while i recieved not a sting. Robin said: Avoiding stings is important for all beekeepers, as Hugo has explained. Stinging is common and daily in the commercial operation. Those unable *or* unwilling to take stings need not apply. Robin asked: Has anyone any comment on the relative importance of the different stimuli bees receive that trigger off stinging? The smell of bee venom is the number one trigger! Period! If you look at an extremely old post I did on BEE-L you will read a true story of how the old timers used to spray a light mist of water and bee venom on the back of a bee inspector they did not like for fun when he was busy looking for problems in their hives and not looking! If you are a retired bee inspector reading the above and remember a similar incident which happened to you I am sure the incident was only a coincidence. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:59:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James & All, > b) To extrapolate this unfounded claim to the point of making > general conclusions about honey being somehow generally > "better" as a feed for bees is to attempt to contradict > the general consensus of the scientific evidence on record. > It was once believed that the earth was flat and if one was to sail to the edge that one would fall off the edge and perish. I will let the bees I keep know that nature got it wrong and scientist have got it figured out for the bees benefit. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:59:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James & All, > Basic issues, like "what's in honey?" are well-known. > What's in honey? What's in nectar? What's in sugar syrup? What's in artificial honey derived from cane sugar syrup? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:58:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith & All, > BTW - did you get the articles? > As a matter of fact I have not received them yet, did you send them media mail/book rate? Keith is sending me some research papers on sugar verses honey for winter feed I think. Seeing that there is no government institution or collage doing any research on honey bees up here I appreciate any information and research papers I can get my hands on to look at. Thanks KeithB. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:44:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation Comments: To: beekeeper@HONEYHILLFARM.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wade & All, This year I will weigh the colonies in September to record each colonies weight. In spring I can more easily conclude what a three story hive, two story hive, and a nuc should weigh before winter sets in. This would be good information for many beekeepers to gather for their locations. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:24:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: honey and healing Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Roger & All, > Keith, how about "shunny". > I agree that honey probably should not be attached to a vile substance that is created from a processed and refined sugar cane. Makes more since to call it Phoney. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ----- Original Message ----- From: "superbee" To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:40 PM Subject: [BEE-L] honey and healing >>I believe that it was posted here that "honey" made from sugar syrup (we really need a more precise word than that for this material) << Keith, how about "shunny". Best regards Roger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:06:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Under 'wax foundation' , Keith said: "> do I think the standard medical community would open itself up to liability by accessing these materials simply by slathering patients in honey?" and Karen commented "that is where the main problem in using this will lie. Even if honey were a better solution, no hospital would allow it, unless their insurance company first OK'd it and guaranteed coverage for the lawsuits that followed (and who would pay for the extra ant treatments or keeping flies away from the wound dressings?)." This has moved on from wax foundation, so this post is re-headed 'Honey and Healing'. The IBRA report , Honey and Healing, still needs a comprehensive review by a qualified peson to help this list , as so many of the constant quibbles are dealt with by the scientists there. Let me restrict corrections to just a few points: 1 On 'simply slathering patients in honey', the work was carried out by qualified people in proper hospitals in civilised countries and this constant disparagement simply shows the small town parochial atitudes that can exist within the bee world. 2 On attracting flies, such hospitals do not need to pay extra to keep ants and flies away, or even honeybees - hospitals in UK, The Netherlands and Australia someow manage to attain standards of hygiene that keep insects out as standard practice - perhaps to stop the doctors' sandwiches geting eaten. 3 On legal risks of using honey on patients, "honey cannot be called a medecine...in wound care, honey can be registered as a ...medical device (as is a pacemaker). Wound dressings such as Opsite and Duoderm are classified as medical devices. Since July 1999, Medihoney (100% honey) - but not any honey - has been registered in Australia as a primary dressing to treat wounds. 'Honeysoft' (a neutral carrier and soft honey within a patented plaster) ' is being tested in hospitals in The Netherlands. Mesitin is a sterile mix of honey and lanolin, sunflower oil and zinc oxide similar to Desitin which was registered in 1935 but the factory was closed by the war." ..... Theo Postmes, Biomedical Research Foundation, Maastricht, The Netherlands ends " The rediscovery of honey ....and is registration as a medical device, will turn this 5000 year old folk remedy into a clinicaly accepted wound dressing of today". I presume a hospital cannot be faulted in law, even in the US, just for using a registered medical device provided the manufacturer's instructions are followed. PLEASE will nobody come back asking if the Neverlands is another name for Atlantis! It really is time this list got a bit more up to date in its information. READ 'Honey and Healing'. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:16:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen D. Oland wrote: >>do I think the standard medical community would open itself up to > > liability > >>by accessing these materials simply by slathering patients in honey? > > > that is where the main problem in using this will lie. Even if honey were a > better solution, no hospital would allow it, unless their insurance company > first OK'd it and guaranteed coverage for the lawsuits that followed (and > who would pay for the extra ant treatments or keeping flies away from the > wound dressings?). The problem with honey as a wound treatment has been said here indirectly but seems to have slipped beneath the radar. It is the reproducibility of the product. Can you, as a provider, guarantee the day to day consistency of your product? Neosporin can. So can sugar. Just look at the literature on the variability of different honeys in wound treatment and even the varibility within the same honey sources. If the sucrose in the nectar is concentrated you will get a different product than if it is less so. Can you guarantee that it has not been heated which can kill the enzymes (and you are no better than sugar)? If the honey granulates is it still usable or will someone heat it and change it to flavored syrup? When I had my operation I recognized that I could not provide honey to anyone but myself or friends for wound treatment because I could not guarantee the consistency of the product, especially when you are using it medicinally for serious problems. There is no conspiracy to keep honey off the medicine cabinet shelves. Honey is not honey just as "sugar" is not just sucrose. But neosporin is neosporin and sucrose is sucrose the world over. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:00:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: cane sugar In-Reply-To: <3F4FB64B.2020307@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But the beekeeper > > reported more diseases when using cane sugar syrup > and > > did not use it any longer. > > Depends on the point in the production process at > which they used it. I have to say I ignore if the cane sugar they used was fully refined or not. But I remember I tried to discuss further the point with the beekeeper and he suspected residues (because of incomplete refining process ?) in sugar to be responsible for diseases. Anyway, that was just his feelings (some would say his experience). He had no real systematic diseases records allowing comparison between different feeding syrups. Hervé, Laval - Qc ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:17:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Apimondia in 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great news that Australia has won the right to host Apimondia in 2007. Everyone is urged to put that in the diary and plan to come to Melbourne = in 2007. It does seem a long time out but it will amaze you how time = will fly. We look forward to returning some of the great hospitality Australians = have received when they have visited other countries. More details later on. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" allen@honeybeeworld.com asked: > Can anyone identify these berries we saw on PEI? Picture at > http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/stan1.jpg Before everyone opines "BLUEBERRIES!", let me state they were not blueberries. They grew like lowbush blueberries, bordered blueberry barrens, but were definitely NOT blueberries. They walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but DID NOT taste like a duck, thereby disproving the old saying! Aaron Morris - thinking if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might NOT be a duck! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:14:38 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 Robin said: > what is a good list of do's and don'ts to > avoid stinging, for passing on to beginners. I guess the biggest change a beginner could make would be to smoke the hive, and wait a minute or two before popping off the outer and inner covers. I see few people do this, but I think it makes a big difference. The real payoff is on days when the bees are in a "more defensive mood". The other big change would be to consistently smoke hives before opening, and while working them. I don't know why some folks persist in thinking that their bees do not need to be smoked, but I guess that they are wearing the latest spring fashions from the Brian Sheriff collection, and don't notice the stings that their suit is taking. Here's an obscure trick, one with which I can even impress other beekeepers, a very tough crowd to entertain: 1) Normal flight speed for bees results in a "buzz" of about 200 Hz as they fly. (I hear it as a "G Below Middle C", or sometimes a "G-Sharp") 2) A "Kamikaz-bee" (the one that seems to always fly directly into one's forehead as a "warning") has a higher "note" to her buzz than a "calm" bee, and can be heard (and thus, located/dodged) before she hits you. Her buzz frequency will be about 260 Hz, "Middle C". 3) Anyone can learn the difference. "Perfect pitch" is not required. Bees on an "attack run" have a easy-to-hear higher frequency "buzz" from their wings. (Think of afterburners on fighter jets - same thing.) 4) Now here's the tricky part. Listening to the higher frequency, cup your hands, and "clap" cupping one's palms AROUND the bee as the sound "comes within reach". One of three things can happen - you can either stun the bee, which drops it like a rock, you can crush the bee, which may earn you a sting on the hand, or you can miss the bee, which means that it STILL bangs into your forehead. If you have decent reflexes, you can drop the bee more often than not. One can practice on drones, which fly much slower, and tend to be much louder than workers. Once you can do this more often than not, you are a "Jedi Beekeeper". If you duck the bee rather than stun it, you are not a "Jedi". It is still "impressive", but it is merely "Kung-Fu". :) 5) No, I can't describe how to "locate by sound", but anyone can do it. It is the same as catching a ball, but you are using your ears rather than your eyes. Now here's the really weird part. Stun or kill the Kamikaz-bee, and wait 3-5 minutes. Don't even touch the hive. You will be sure to hear (and perhaps feel) yet ANOTHER Kamikaz-bee. a) How did the second bee decide to do a "defensive reconnaissance patrol flight" if the fate of the first Kamikaz-bee is unknown to the hive? b) How did the hive go from a "no patrols" status to "patrols every few minutes"? It can't be alarm pheromone, because the hive as a whole is NOT being "defensive" in the least. c) Alternatively, are all hives always sending up such reconnaissance sorties all the time? d) And why does one never hear two Kamikaz-bees within a minute? Something is going on here that has yet to have been documented. All I can imagine is that there has to be some sort of "check-in" protocol among the guard bees for a bee returning from a "defensive reconnaissance patrol", and after about 5 minutes, the first Kamikaz-bee is assumed "missing in action", and another reconnaissance sortie is launched by one of the remaining guard bees. For beginners, the bee that hits them in the forehead (or veil) is a clear message from the bees that the beekeeper is not working smoothly enough and has disturbed the bees. One has been "pinged", and the implications are identical those portrayed in old movies about submarine warfare. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:50:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Looks to me like the crowberry of my beloved Scottish hills. I see that it gets about a bit and is found in the New World, so may be the same species, Empetrum nigrum. With us it can be abundant on gravelly/peaty acidic soils in exposed positions. Guessing at the follow-up question (you appear to know already that it is not worth eating), I wouldn't have thought that bees were interested. It flowers early, and on male plants dangles its anthers in a most wind-pollinating manner. I do wonder though if the berries have mind-altering properties - what's all this stuff about shifting from the linear-thought paradigm?! Gavin. PS I'm sure that you can Google along with the rest of us, but let me save you the bother ..... One of these links implies that you may need some bear grease to make them palatable, but somehow I don't think that would do it for me either. http://www.grzyby.pl/rosliny/gatunki/Empetrum_nigrum_ssp._hermaphroditum.htm http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=EMPET http://caliban.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~stueber/thome/band3/tafel_020.html http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/images/401/Magnoliophyta/Magnoliopsida/Dilleniidae/Empetraceae/Empetrum/ http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/environment/eao/culres/ethbot/d-l/Empetrum.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:44:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: weighing colonies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >This year I will weigh the colonies in September to record each colonies >weight. This would be good >information for many beekeepers to gather for their locations. > >Keith Malone I've been weighing my colonies now for more than 20 years. I can't imagine trying to judge their weight, for winter, any other way. Just hefting the back of the hives never worked well for me...they all feel heavy after a yard or two. Feeding until they won't take any more can be expensive. Just one extra gallon per colony would cost me a couple thousand dollars. A two story colony, and bees...with no honey...cover off...weighs about 70 pounds. Add to that what honey you need in your area to winter, and make that be your target weight. My target weight is 150 lbs...northwest Vermont. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:00:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Tender Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this question recently. Comments? --- What are your thoughts about uncapping newly drawn frames on plastic. When I uncapped them with a Cowen the wax just pulled away from the plastic. It was a mess. So we did it with scratcher fork. Would the chain type uncapper work any better? Thanks for your input. --- allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Now up to date. Still planning to write more about EAS. Sometime. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:24:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Tender Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > newly drawn frames on plastic when uncapped with a Cowen > (Silver Queen) the wax just pulled away from the plastic. I've had the same results. First season I also scratch 'em. Second year the bees reinforce the comb and they're fine after that. Aaron Morris - thinking be gentle, it's my first time! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:50:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wash your bee suit and wash often! Good for public relations with humans, too. People who are handling food should look clean. > Avoiding stings is important for all beekeepers But getting stung regularly is important to prevent allergy. This does not require frequent multiple stings. Unless excessive effort is made to prevent all stings, usually anyone working with bees will get enough stings, especially if gloves are not worn. > The smell of bee venom is the number one trigger! Period! Add to this hive disturbance. Banging and sudden motion will start what could become a chain-reaction of stinging, scent cues and more stinging. --- Recent discussion mentioned two distinct types of morbidity arising from bee stings: the toxicity of the venom (and thus the LD50 related to that effect), and also the allergic possibilities, which may range from total insensitivity (immunity) to hypersensitivity. In the case of allergy, no LD50 can be calculated, since each individual will react differently, perhaps even differently on separate occasions. Sensitivity is a curious phenomenon, since it can take many forms and mimic other illnesses. As an example of extreme sensitivity, we have all heard of peanut sensitivities, so severe, that the sensitive individual is put at risk even by entering an enclosed space like an aeroplane or candy shop where peanuts are to be found. It is not unreasonable to expect that some individuals may be similarly sensitive to bees. One other thing we should keep in mind when discussing venom morbidity, is that small amounts of venom seem to have beneficial effects on some individuals and are credited with many happy outcomes, from reducing arthritis symptoms to alleviating MS discomfort. Therefore, once again the effects of bee venom are not linear or universal, but are strongly related to the specific individual individual being stung, and the circumstances. --- allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Is this deja vue all over again? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Tender Comb In-Reply-To: <002f01c36fe1$5a3c93b0$71b85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >When I uncapped them with a Cowen the wax just pulled away from the >plastic. It was a mess. Would the >chain type uncapper work any better? I have a Gunness chain uncapper. With a thousand supers of Pierco medium foundation in wood frames...I can see no real problems with the comb separating from the foundation the first time they are extracted. My hotroom is at 110 deg F. Would that make a difference? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Tender Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mike Palmer wrote: with a Gunness chain uncapper (in a) hotroom at 110 deg F I can see no real problems. Well, the hotroom at 110dF is a variable I do not have when I run into a problem with my Cowen. P'raps the hotroom makes a difference, Wish I had one... Aaron Morris - dreaming of the ideal honey house.... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:25:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Tender Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen: We do all our uncapping with scratchers. We find that the new comb on plastic is very fragile. You can minimize the damage by holding the scratcher at a very low angle and by scratching toward filled cells rather than toward partially filled cells. The full cells seem to offer some support to the thin comb. After a few years, the comb seems to thicken and behaves just like comb drawn on wax foundation. I imagine the fragility comes from the comb being drawn with less wax than it would have if there were a thick wax foundation available for the bees to draw wax from. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 28/08/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:36:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Paradigm Shift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: allen dick " In recent years, we've noticed a shift from rule-based, linear thinking to a > point where we now understand our world more in terms of probabilities than > in terms of certainties. The shift to IPM from rule-based treatment regimes > is one example". Allen liked us to a very interesting speech by Alan Greenspan, which he adapted to the beekeeper. May I suggest respectfully that it appies even more to new ideas emerging on the nature of the bee colony itself. The leading figure seems to be Thomas Seeley, with 'Honeybee Ecology - a study in adaption in social life, 1985 and then 'The Wisdom of the Hive', 1995. The secret of survival for the bee colony seems to be an ability to manage its resources adaptably in response to changing external conditions, switching between brood rearing, swarming and foraging to optimise its chances of survival. This does not imply reasoning as we use the word, but it does seem to move us further from the Cartesian model of animals as mere machines. The honeybee seems to have ways to measure and then make calculations - but probably not using the mathematics we know, as bee brains are so small. (Which raises the interesting possibility that there is another, more efficient mathematics to be discovered). I would like to learn more on this way of viewing a bee colony. Can anyone add to the reading list? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:15:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" > "Stinging is common and daily in the commercial operation. Those unable *or* > unwilling to take stings need not apply". What about those who take Hugo's advice that bee venom all has to be cleared out by the kidneys , however immune the beekeeper becomes to swelling? Is renal failure an occupational risk for professional beekeepers - or is it in fact unknown? What of employed staff? We have increasing legislation in UK at not exposing workers to health risks - prison sentences are on the horizon. Is it really so impossible for professional beekeepers to avoid stings - or is it that u are working so fast that protective clothes are an impediment? Robin Dartington . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:07:20 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Tender Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strange that this question comes up now! Have just come back from Manitoba (yesterday) - and whilst watching extraction taking place (whilst the others waded through the crop!) - I asked if freshly drawn comb on plastic foundation often ripped off during uncapping (Cowen Jumbo being used). The answer was given as follows: White plastic foundation "peels". Black plastic foundation (from China) did/does not. This was then demonstrated. The thoughts are, that due to the molded cell walls on the black foundation being deeper - better adherence resulted. I cannot given any more evidence than this - but it appeared at the time to be correct! Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:57:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Granulating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have found that keeping comb in a freezer works well. Remember that you want to freeze it fast in order to take it through the worst crystallization point (14 degrees C) as fast as possible. Thus try spreading them thinly in the freezer until frozen then stack. Similarly when you thaw it out do it quickly. A warm room 90 to 100 deg. F is okay. I now use a dehydrator set at 95 deg F. An added bonus of the dehydrator is the fan blowing warm air all the time does the job the quickest and evaporates the condensation that forms protecting labels (even our cheap paper ones) from being badly degraded. The bottom line the longer the honey sits around 14 deg C the quicker it will crystallize. And don't keep on freezing and thawing! ... george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:15:42 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 29 Aug 2003 to 30 Aug 2003 (#2003-238) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pierre MacKay asked whether hornets dance like honey bees. No, no vespid wasps (commonly called hornets and yellowjackets, of which there are about 50 species world-wide) are known to dance. However it is possible that foragers may set out to find the source of the aroma of a food brought to a nest. Also it has been shown that workers of some common yellowjacket species are attracted by the sight of other workers feeding at a food source. Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic bee products In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030830200917.03137ec0@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim Arheit wrote: So even if one owned 2-3 miles in every direction, you still couldn't control the spraying due to roads and county ditches. The standard is virtually impossible to meet and completely unreasonable in my opinion. Reply: Many areas are like this sure and organics cannot be done. But then again many areas ARE NOT like this and organics can quite easily be down, especially in the western states. Don't hinder then, those that can obtain the goal if they want to go for it. Yet, still do all you can to make it better for yourself and your bees in your own area to reduce such contamination. It certainly cannot hurt the environment we are supposed to be caretakes of! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, It is very hard for most hobby beekeepers to understand the world of the commercial beekeeper. People think you are crazy when they find out you keep a single hive and really think you are playing with a short deck when they find out you make a living from honeybees. I will give the hobby beekeepers on the list a glimpse. Robin asked: What about those who take Hugo's advice that bee venom all has to be cleared out by the kidneys , however immune the beekeeper becomes to swelling? Is renal failure an occupational risk for professional beekeepers - or is it in fact unknown? The oldest people in the world keep bees in Russia and many work bees without protection (National Geographic). We have got an active beekeeper over a hundred in Kansas. The oldest man in the U.S. today (as of last year) was a beekeeper according to an artical in the New York Times. Richard Adee's father passed away last year in his 90's (from memory) and was running around 400 hives at the time of his death. My mentor was over 90 years of age when I was his apprentice at the age of thirteen in Florida. Dr. Miller,Langstroth and the Roots all were long lived. Two different Gypsy fortune tellers which told my fortune for a jar of honey at street fairs said I would live a long life (hey whats a jar of honey to be told what you would like to hear!) Renal failure? Bah humbug! What of employed staff? Not a lot of renal failure risk as most quit after the first day if they come back after lunch. If your own family could quit they would I am afraid. robin said: We have increasing legislation in UK at not exposing workers to health risks - prison sentences are on the horizon. If Bob ends up in prison I doubt it will be from exposing workers to health risks as I would NEVER ask an employee to do a beekeeping job I would not do myself. Stings are about the only serious health risk in beekeeping and as Richard Taylor wrote in an ABJ monthly article: Quote Richard Taylor: "The sting of the honeybee will always limit the members of the craft of beekeeping" Robin asked: Is it really so impossible for professional beekeepers to avoid stings - or is it that u are working so fast that protective clothes are an impediment? The hobby beekeeper chooses the time he works his bees. Perfect day when the bees are perhaps bringing in nectar. If in a bad mood he simply closes the hive and returns another day. Bob loads several semi's in a single day in California , no nectar flow on, cloudy day, bees in a bad mood , bees crawling in every place in the bee suit, all hive entrances open, stands on top of the semi load mashing bees trying to install the bee net. The hobby beekeeper in our area has finished extracting his supers back when the honey flow was on and the bees paid little attention to the honey processing area. Bob is still bringing in supers. Thousands of bees (yes thousands) are at the honey processing area each morning to greet Bob and stay all day trying to get in when the roll up door raises up. The building next to the honey processing area is full of supers . Bob opens the door every few hours to let a few thousand bees fly out and back to the hives. The scenario happens every year so Bob thinks little about the situation. Bob's UPS man, mail man and honey customers see the situation different and scary. Bobs UPS man asked Bob earlier this year as a bee landed on his shoulder: "This bee will not sting me will she?" "Not if you do not mash her with you hand Bob said! As the UPS driver mashed the bee with his hand getting a sting. The driver threw Bobs order out the door and gave Bob an obscene gesture with his finger. Luckily the driver was not the regular driver which is not afraid of bees or Bob might have to pick up and ship UPS from the road entrance. Stings are not a big deal to a professional beekeeper. My bee suit is called a bug baffler sold by Mid con agrimarketing which is sold to protect against misquotes in hot weather. I do not wear protection in the honey house regardless of the number of bees. At times the hired help will refuse to help in the honey house until I clear out the bees. Bees land and crawl around on me and I ignore the bees. No problem. The stings I get come from mashing bees with my fingers picking up frames (10-20 in a day not uncommon). I could wear gloves and avoid hand stings but prefer the stings over the hot cumbersome gloves. My mother had rheumatoid arthritis and my father walked with a cane from arthritis. My doctor gave me a blood test for arthritis and the test came back negative. Bee stings? I consider myself a small full time beekeeper these days. In fact I do not need to keep bees at all as I retired in June of 1998. I do what I do because I enjoy beekeeping. I should be fishing instead of beekeeping but still enjoy the challenge of beekeeping and helping my two *partners* work through their problems . Both can not afford to keep year around beekeeping help so Bob is the only help they can depend on when doing pollination. Bob's wife is understanding and Bob can go and stay as long as needed in California or Texas. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::