From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:42 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7335D48FD8 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdW011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0309A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 238709 Lines: 5233 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:00:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: "The sting of the honeybee will always limit the members of the craft of beekeeping" I just love this list! You can ask an innocent question and get such vivid answers it is like u were there doing it yourself. Bob's description of stings in commercial beekeeping is a classic. But..........apart from doubts on its effect on beekeeper recruitment, in all seriousness how does that account read to say a Health & Safety Officer in an industrial company? Do we have any on the list who could reply? All I know is that, on one occasion when I gave my standard lecture on beekeeping equipment, two UK H&S officers said that if anyone came along at the factory to start such an operation, they would be sent away to think again. (My standard talk to associations introduces my Long Deep hive, which got endorsement from H&S as it is the only pattern of hive on sale in UK that keeps the need to lift heavy loads within the guidelines issued to all employers under the Health & Safety at Work Act. But risks to health from heavy lifting are another topic). Does Bob's description indicate comercial beekeeping is completely out-of-date as an industrial activity, a quaint relic of former pioneering times - if so, do those engaged at the commecial level feel it can go on indefinitely without a radical re-think? As Bob said, a hobbyist can pick the time to work bees and can get phases of work (clearing, extracing and returning supers, re-queening, winter feeding) completed while conditions are still favourable. That seems a major reason why hobby beekeeping is most enjoyable if u keep down the number of hives to what u can deal with easily - but how often do we hear of beekeepers, who have had one good year, planning to double the business. There is so much anecdotal evidence of beekeepers living long, as Bob showed.......due to getting stung regularly and heavily. What a pity we do not agree it is something in the honey that helps .......But as they say, 'if u want to live long, u have to give up everything that makes u want to live long'. So the idea of keeping bees in peace and harmony with nature will clearly have to go, along with ..........I leave u all to ponder the list. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:20:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote: "But getting stung regularly is important to prevent allergy..." I wonder - is this a fact? What i heard somewhere (could be another one of those old wifes tales in the beekeeping community) is that those stings add up and you could get stung regularly for years and suddenly you get an allergic reaction and you have to start looking for a new hobby/job. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden (hoping Allen will confirm that this is a fact) PS. James - your post about the Jedi thing was about as funny as it gets. I have used this technique and it works (sometimes). Do bees have eardrums and what happens to them when they get "clapped"? May the force be with you. ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Tender Comb In-Reply-To: <002f01c36fe1$5a3c93b0$71b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What are your thoughts about uncapping newly drawn frames on plastic. I've had no problems with hot or cold knife -- So a heated uncapper should work fine. I also end up with a hot room at this point -- 90-95 weather outside and good insulation would mean fairly cool temps, except the dehumidifer quickly eats it up and keeps it 95+. Of course, this year as so poor in this area, I ended up using the scrather for most frames, as they were not drawn out very far (and I didn't have that much). Karen oland --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:11:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: > Can anyone identify these berries we saw on PEI? Picture at > http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/stan1.jpg Émpetrum nigrum - black crowberry ------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:55:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: cognant.mike@BTCONNECT.COM Subject: Bee Stings LD50 and Protective Clothing In-Reply-To: <007601c36ff7$edda0740$ec87bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all On the subject of bee stings and protective clothing, the normally adopted approach from a health and safety perspective is to reduce the risks as far as practicable by changes to the process, before designing protective equipment to manage the residual risk to the worker (Human, not apian!). For example, a noisy factory environment is best dealt with by reducing the noise production as much as is practicable at source, and then by providing ear defenders for use in any areas where it is not practicable to keep the noise levels down. Leaving the noise level high and handing out superlative ear defenders is not normally acceptable. In the context of beekeeping, this implies that good tempered behaviour is a priority for the bees, minimising the risks of being stung in the first instance. Designing protective clothing to protect a beekeeper from the worst of attacks from manic bees would not be regarded as a correct approach to the problem of providing a safe working environment for a beekeeeper in this area of risk. Regards Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:58:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Paradigm Shift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would like to learn more on this way of viewing a bee colony. Can > anyone add to the reading list? I don't know about a reading list, but our archives contain articles, about managing bees in ways that enable and encourage bees in their homes and to proceed according to their 'wisdom' and 'culture', rather than attempting to impose puny human logic and controls on them. We question whether beekeeping thought in the 20th century was unduly dominated by the needs of equipment manufacturers through their finacing of beekeeping publications, and the fact that, as in many things money is made by selling items and that money finances further such sales. We go so far as to question the use of the Langstroth (or any) commercial hive, and to question the use of foundation. One such article is reprinted at http://beesource.com/pov/dick/simple.htm. There are many more. A good beekeeper works with the bees and not against them. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:02:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The Last Refuge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Is it really so > > impossible for professional beekeepers to avoid stings - or is it > > that u are working so fast that protective clothes are an impediment? > It is very hard for most hobby beekeepers to understand the world of the > commercial beekeeper. Bob wrote about the best answer one can imagine, but for a picture, visit http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary082002.htm for an idea , or read my diary at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ for a hint of daily life for one commercial beekeeper. FWIW, the guys beside me in that picture are hired help and had worked with bees for two years at the time the picture was taken. Some people never get to understand bees or lose their fear. Commercial beekeepers -- much like hobbyists -- are very much individuals. Althought here are some commonalities, commercial beekeepers vary from one another very drastically in their philosophy, approach, choices in equipment, and procedures. Never imagine for a moment that any one is typical. Commercial beekeeping is a last refuge for the non-conformist. independent individualist in today's regulated, PC world. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:06:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Looks to me like the crowberry of my beloved Scottish hills. and > Gavin was correct. It's what he calls a "crowberry". I found a link to > > another pic of it on Google. http://www.darktickle.com/crowberryinfo.aspx Thanks everyone. I am sure that is it, and I guess Stan could have eaten more of them. He was cautious. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:14:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Living long, and prospering. . . . was Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >There is so much anecdotal evidence of beekeepers living long, as Bob >showed.......due to getting stung regularly and heavily. What a pity we do >not agree it is something in the honey that helps .......But as they say, >'if u want to live long, u have to give up everything that makes u want to >live long'. > One might suggest that there is clearly some vigerous exercise involved in beekeeping - even with the advent of pallet loaders and such. It is a pretty physical job, gets one out an about. Pretty much the antithesis of modern day desk job. Might have something to do with it. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 06:11:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "But getting stung regularly is important to prevent allergy..." > I wonder - is this a fact? What i heard somewhere (could be another > one of those old wifes tales in the beekeeping community) is that > those stings add up and you could get stung regularly for years and > suddenly you get an allergic reaction and you have to start looking > for a new hobby/job. AFAIK, this is latter situation is very unusual. Once again, allergies are not well understood, and can appear and disappear for reasons that are not known. I know of no cumulative effect of bee toxin, and AFAIK, bee toxins have no cumulative effect on liver or kidneys when experienced in sub-lethal doses. What is known, however, is that people exposed to the dusts associated with beekeeping, such as family members of beekeepers, are in high risk of developing serious bee sting allergies unless they are stung with reasonable frequency. What is 'reasonable frequency'? I don't know, but several times a year is the minimum. Monthly in the working season is better. I know of two beekeepers in Alberta who lost wives to a single bee sting and countless (non-beekeeping) family members of beekeepers who are seriously allergic. My son was allergic, at one point when he was small, but went though a series of shots and even went into beekeeping for a few years, before he moved to Rhode Island to raise a family and program computers. I know of no beekeepers -- counting only those who were serious beekeepers and who worked with them often, getting stung in the process -- who have become allergic to bees. Do you? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:30:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Weighing colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Palmer said "I've been weighing my colonies now for more than 20 years." How do you manage to weigh all those colonies? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:49:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Kamikaz-bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have changed the thread from LD50 as that seems to have lost it's relevence... Jim's post has several interesing bits and pieces in it and I wonder if we can tease them out and learn something new. > I guess that they are wearing the latest spring fashions from > the Brian Sheriff collection, and don't notice the stings that > their suit is taking. I think this point is quite significant and has considerable negative impact on the non beekeeping public. I believe that it has come about because beekeeping association membership is dwindling and we beekeepers are trying to attract new recruits that otherwise might not have stayed the course. But it does give rise to tolerance of bee colonies that are more defensive, this matters little to the armour plated beekeeper, but has a profound effect on on-lookers or passers-by. > Bees on an "attack run" have > a easy-to-hear higher frequency "buzz" from their wings. Easy to hear yes, but I personally have never developed the skill of singling out the "attacker" and despatching her. I have seen others do this with what looked like "magical" skill. I blame my trifocal spectacles for the inability to develop this technique. > a) How did the second bee decide to do a "defensive > reconnaissance patrol flight" if the fate of the > first Kamikaz-bee is unknown to the hive? This implies something in the nature of regular scouting sortie, but this may not be far from the mark. Graham Law has reported an activity that he terms a "weather man bee" whereby in cold conditions a single bee will make a regular short trip outside the hive (often no more than a loop 450 mm in diameter). I have noticed this happening in my own apiary. > Something is going on here that has yet to have been documented. > All I can imagine is that there has to be some sort of "check-in" > protocol among the guard bees for a bee returning from a "defensive > reconnaissance patrol", and after about 5 minutes, the first > Kamikaz-bee is assumed "missing in action", and another reconnaissance > sortie is launched by one of the remaining guard bees. I have always assumed that the Kamikaz-bee was a heightend state of guarding behaviour, but when I think about it I have nothing concrete to hang this assumption on. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:47:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 and Protective Clothing In-Reply-To: <3F530997.21632.38756928@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob noted that the oldest person in the US is a beekeeper- Fred Hale who lived in Maine until he was about 106 and then moved into a nursing home to be close to relatives in New York. He was a large scale beekeeper and exceptionally knowledgeable. He credited the tot of whiskey to his longevity, not honey. He was very active through his whole life. Was cutting his firewood up through his late 90s. As far as stings... I know one very knowledgeable beekeeper who, before the season starts, gets stung on purpose to desensitize himself. (anecdotal evidence) Also, a beekeeper's family is more likely to become sensitized to bee stings if the beekeeper brings their suit into the house and changes there. (scientific evidence) Taking the two together and foolishly extrapolating (a recent common occurance on this list) it would seem that reducing the number of times a beekeeper is stung would be more dangerous than letting it be a normal function of beekeeping. The reason ties directly into the studies of beekeepers families. It is the suit and all its accumulated "bee stuff" that sensitizes (scientific) but it is stinging that desensitizes (anecdotal). If you try to keep from being stung, you are more liable to have a reaction than if you allow yourself to be stung. From purly anecdotal evidence, I know that as the season goes along my reactions to stings are minimal. Once I was picking berries and wondered what was "scratching" my legs and it was a group of yellow jackets stinging away. They were just an annoyance compared to a bunch of bees doing the same. Interesting that those who extol honey as healing forget the value of apitherapy. My guess it is more the stinging that gives any health benefits to beekeepers. Anyone can eat honey. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:01:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen Glater Subject: Varrora discovered on bees, brood, in honey supers Greetings from eastern Massachusetts, 20 miles west of Boston! Yesterday we extracted, and we had a pretty good year. I got 165 lbs from my 2 hives, and a friend got about 130 from hers. That after I fed 3 full shallow supers of honey to my weaker hive during the summer to help them build up. There could have been more, but only at the expense of my bees. One of her hives, however, was horribly infested with Varrora. I could see mites on the bees, I could see mites on the brood in the honey supers, and they are obviously on the frames themselves. This raised a bunch of questions. 1.) Will the mites on the honey supers die over the winter or do we risk re-infecting when we put the equipment back on in the spring? We do send all frames through a freezer cycle to kill wax moth larvae/eggs, and I would assume that the mites will die at this time too. 2.) Will Api-strip treatment now be sufficient to knock down this infection? 3.) Is there any ill effect on the honey from the supers of the infected hive? Of course, honey and Apistan were never on the hive at the same time. Any and all information, advice and suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks in advance. --glen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:04:24 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: >>Gavin was correct. It's what he calls a "crowberry". > I guess Stan could have eaten more of them. The berries are not particularly exciting to eat, but the juice when sweetened has a very pleasant taste. The berries are said to be very high in vitamin C, about twice as much as in blueberries. ----------------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Commercial beekeeping was ( Bee Stings LD50) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: . But risks to health from heavy lifting are another topic). The weight of supers full of honey are within the limits for weight for even UPS drivers let alone most U.S. industries. approx 60 lb. (Illinois depth) and 75-85 (full depth langstroth). Robin said: Does Bob's description indicate comercial beekeeping is completely out-of-date as an industrial activity, Because in England commercial beekeepers as found in the U.S. do not exist it is hard for beekeepers in the U.K. to picture a large U.S. migratory operation in my opinion. Also hard for a farmer in the U.K farming 40 acres to imagine a U.S. row crop farmer farming several thousand acres by himself. Forget *industrial activity* and think agricultural activity. I have put square bales of hay in the barn heavier than honey supers. Robin added: a quaint relic of former pioneering times - if so, do those engaged at the commecial level feel it can go on indefinitely without a radical re-think? The U.S. honey producers may not win out over cheap foreign honey. As with many other American industries the cheap price of foreign products (honey) may eventually bankrupt the American honey producer. Most beekeepers doing pollination need income from honey production also to survive. Without income from honey production to suppliment pollination income they to could go bankrupt. Selling honey at cost of production or below cost of production will not work for American beekeepers like it does for China. China is doing to the U.S. beekeeping industry what Wal Mart does to the small Mom & Pop stores in a small town. The American consumer can always find something to spread on his/her toast and pancakes but when the beekeepers which provide pollination are gone our country will be in serious trouble trying to pollinate crops which will not produce without honeybees. Millions of acres of Almonds , Apples , Blueberries, cranberries ,peaches etc. will sit untended and the workers will be laid off! Viet Nam was the largest importer of honey to the U.S. last year with a small number of bee hives . Quite a feat but the honey was accepted into the U.S. by the powers that be despite protests by U.S. beekeepers. We figured the Viet Nam crop average per hive must have been over a thousand pounds per colony. Hmmm. Maybe Viet Vam will provide the million hives of bees needed to pollinate Almonds this year. bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:25:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote:Allen said: > I know of no beekeepers -- counting only those who were serious > beekeepers and who worked with them often, getting stung in the > process -- who have become allergic to bees. Do you? Nope. This is both good and bad news. Good that i won't become allergic, bad that i need to get my wife and kids a few stings. They won't like it... /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Kamikaz-bee In-Reply-To: <003601c37090$4a7837e0$0a00000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The point was made that an unwashed bee-suit incites the bees to sting because it gets loaded with stings and alarm pheromone. The thing I'm wondering about is whether this problem can be reduced by using a suit that doesn't retain stings. For example, I use a "bug baffler" mesh shirt. Not only have they so far not been able to sting me through the shirt, but the open mesh also doesn't seem to allow them to leave the stinger behind. At least, I have yet to see a stinger stuck in the bug baffler shirt, but back when I used coveralls, there were stingers stuck in them all the time. As added benefits, the bug baffler is a *lot* cooler to wear than coveralls, because the wind can blow right through it, and it also keeps off the black flies and mosquitoes (which are, arguably, more of a problem in my apiary than the beestings). On really hot days, I can even wear the bug baffler with no regular shirt under it at all, which is even cooler than wearing just a T-shirt. The mesh is pretty rugged, and plant burrs don't stick to it very much at all. So, is there some benefit to the conventional bee-suit that I'm missing? Or is a bug-mesh suit actually a superior protective garment? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Identify Berries? Crowberries grow abundantly here in Alaska, but they are rather bland. They can be made into jellies or pies, etc. A good pie recipe from the local Cooperative Extension Service is: 4 cups of berries 1 cup of sugar 1 baked pie shell pour 2 cups uncooked berries into the pie shell heat the other two cups berries and sugar until juicy pour the juiced berries over the uncooked berries Chill and serve. Regards Dick Allen (thinking beekepers will use honey instead of sugar, of course) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:35:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Organic Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, >I agree. Virtually any human activity outside the beekeepers control means spraying is a good possibility. >This not only includes farm fields, but roadways and drainage ditches.... Lots of other contaminant exist besides agricultural chemicals. Out west, our own government set off hundreds of nuclear blasts and most people would be shocked to see maps of the fallout patterns. This material can be easily detected in the soil and groundwater. Heavy metals and radioactive elements are also common downwind of power plants and copper smelters. They can also be easily detected in the soil and water. These types of compounds are easily taken up and incorporated into many kinds of plant tissue. These kinds of contaminants are not restricted to the local area in which they are generated. They can be quickly spread around the world. Radiation from the Ukraine and the recent dust cloud from China are a couple of good examples. Many dirty businesses have relocated just outside our borders to avoid our environmental laws. Yet, some of the contamination they generate often comes back into the US by wind, water and product. Bees are electrostatically charged particulate samplers. They go just about everywhere in their environment and sniff just about everything. Hive products are a reflection of that environment and cannot be completely pure. The concept of a product being organic is consumer/legal and not a chemical reality. As consumer awareness increases concerning product contamination, the threshold for organic certification will have to be raised. Organic proponents tend to focus on agricultural contamination but tend to neglect biological contamination. I expect that will change as some biological contaminants can be as bad or worse than agricultural chemicals. If I were to buy an organic product, I would want the product certified as organic and not the production method or area. After all it's the product that's consumed. That would require product testing and would be very expensive. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:27:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Re: Beestings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember reading about this earlier and was able to find it again on the GardenWeb bee forum: Posted by: DrLove z6 NJ (My Page) on Sun, Jun 1, 03 at 11:37 To follow up on Denise's comments. ALL beekeepers should have an epipen (both adult and childrens dosage)on hand whenever in the beeyard. Anaphalactic shock may not be common, but could be deadly. Even if you have not shown any alergic reaction, be prepared. I know of one beekeeper who collapsed in the field after being stung...this after many years of no reaction. I do not know if the beekeeper actually died or not. Regards, Denise :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:01:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: weighing colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, You mentioned you weigh your hives before either on this list or another. Could you explain your methods again please? Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 Allen: > I know of no beekeepers -- counting only those who were serious > beekeepers and who worked with them often, getting stung in the > process -- who have become allergic to bees. Do you? George Imrie of Maryland went through quite a bit of trouble with exactly this scenario. He certaintly got his fair share of stings over the decades before the problem cropped up. It goes without saying that he is "serious" about his beekeeping. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9805B&L=bee-l&P=R1993 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0202B&L=bee-l&P=R3292 jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:00:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hensler Subject: Re: Beestings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denise Hubler" >I know of one beekeeper who collapsed in the field > after being stung...this after many years of no reaction. > > > > I do not know if the beekeeper actually died or not. But how do you, or anyone else, know the collapse wasn't due to a heart attack, or heat stroke, or diabetic shock, or a bad plate of sushi, or ??? Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:01:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I know of no beekeepers -- counting only those who were serious >> beekeepers and who worked with them often, getting stung in the >> process -- who have become allergic to bees. Do you? > > George Imrie of Maryland went through quite a bit of trouble with > exactly this scenario. GEORGE says, in one of the messages you mentioned, "When I started in 1933, stings produced swelling and itching which lessened as I got more stings; but 30 years later, I had learned so much BEE BEHAVIOR that I was not getting stung very often and my developed immunity titer lost its volume from lack of use. Then I suddenly got a bunch of stings, and my body could not handle it". >From that, I would tend to conclude that his case was not 'exactly this scenario'. He admits to evolving to the point where he was NOT being stung regularly. He also says that after his bad experience, he made sure he got stung regularly, without fail. I gather he has had no such problem since. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varrora discovered on bees, brood, in honey supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Varroa will die in I believe seven days without a host. Sounds to me like you have got fluvalinate resistant varroa *if* you treated with Apistan last spring. If so Apistan is not going to work. Sounds like your varroa load is over threshold. If so the hive is beyound saving and wasting money on. Do a 24 hour varroa mite natural drop and report back for my opinion. email me direct if you want. Bob Ps. reinfestation could be taking place but I suspect fluvalinate resistant varroa are the problem but you could observe at the entrance for about 15 minutes and see if bees with varroa are landing. or Close the entrance and eyther roll a couple hundred of the bees which congregate at the blocked entrance. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:06:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen & All, > If you read my posts, perhaps you could pay attention to the part where > there is NO honey to leave for the bees. I took zero, the bees have zero. > Feed or they die. > I read your post, how many brood boxes do you manage your bees in? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:52:47 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know of no beekeepers -- counting only those who were serious > beekeepers and who worked with them often, getting stung in the > process -- who have become allergic to bees. Do you? There was a case in Australia a few years back where a commercial beekeeper became allergic to bees. He had to give up keeping bees and had to have the series of injections to become de-sensitized. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA See you down under in 2007. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:04:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Beestings In-Reply-To: <5b.3da01cf8.2c84cd87@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >GardenWeb bee forum: I know of one beekeeper who collapsed in the field >after being stung...this after many years of no reaction. We have no idea of the frequency of stings the beekeeper had been exposed to either. It could be a situation like George Imerie, where the beekeeper was not stung regularly. Interesting but it doesn't really let us know the frequency of sting prior to the collapse :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:41:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > > suddenly you get an allergic reaction and you have to start looking > > for a new hobby/job. At a recent committee meeting of our local beekeeping association I proudly showed off my newly-acquired EpiPen. Turned out that three of us (there were I think 10 around the table), all hobby beekeepers but not particularly paranoid about avoiding stings, were allergic. All three have been confirmed by RAST tests, one had been rendered unconscious and has given up beekeeping, one has been successfully desensitised, and I'm hoping that the specialist will offer me desensitisation when I see him at the end of the year. I'm not saying that frequent stings fail to protect, but do we know how frequent and intense they have to be? Maybe in a 'good' year (or over a long winter?) we can too easily fail to obtain the protection stings bring? For my part, in the 2002 season I worked my bees weekly from late April to July, and less frequently outside that period. Probably the usual pin-pricks through kitchen gloves or trousers, I don't really remember. The first decent stinging episode in 2003 gave me my first ever systemic reaction. Gavin - thinking, clean that beekeeping kit, clean it often, and keep it out of the house! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:37:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: weighing colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, If you weigh one side of a colony tipping it with a spring scale, and it say weighed 70 lbs., how much would the whole hive weigh? Or how can you calculate the total weight? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:11:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: weighing colonies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >If you weigh one side of a colony tipping it with a spring scale, and it say >weighed 70 lbs., how much would the whole hive weigh? >Keith Malone Tip the hive onto the scale all the way...all the weight. Balance the hive edge...on the scale. Let go for a second, and read the weight. Set the hive back down, remove the scale. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:07:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: weighing colonies In-Reply-To: <009001c370be$9ffa8b40$1e0b17d1@buzzybee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Could you explain your methods again please? > >Clay I bought a commercial package scale. Looks a bit like a bathroom scale. Weighs up to 250 lbs. My hive stands are 2x4 on edge...two hives per stand. I tip the hive sideways, and insert the scale under the edge of the hive. I then tip the hive up onto the scale. Read the weight, and tip the hive back...remove the scale. Depending on the kind of hive stand, you might need a piece of plywood under the scale, to hold it up. I like this method because you don't have to lift the hive, it only takes a minute, and can be done by one person. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Weighing colonies In-Reply-To: <001001c37084$c80f0f50$31256118@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >How do you manage to weigh all those colonies? > >Lloyd Years ago I bought the bees of an ancient beekeeper. He could rarely remember my name without difficulty, and always walked with a shuffle. The bees were located in his back yard, and sat on cement blocks...long ago grown deeply embedded into the sod. Well, we moved the bees to a new yard, and the time came to remove the blocks from their entrapment in the turf. At best it would take a couple hours of struggle for me and my helper. When we arrived at the yard to do the job, we were a bit taken back. All the cement blocks were in neat rows...on top of the sod...ready to be loaded onto the truck. When I asked Curtis how he had ever managed such a feat, his reply taught this...at the time...young beekeeper a valuable lesson. "One at a time, Michael." Inch by inch, row by row...eh Lloyd? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:06:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 In-Reply-To: <20030901142507.SRHT20118.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Sep 2003 at 16:25, Mats Andersson wrote: > This is both good and bad news. Good that i won't become allergic, bad > that i need to get my wife and kids a few stings. They won't like it... Commercial beekeepers seem to have a high divorce rate; perhaps this is part of it. (Long periods away from home might be a factor too.) I know one beekeeper wife, who is allergic and deathly afraid of bees. I suspect the venom dust from washing is the cause of the problem. I always tried to make sure my kids had at least an occasional sting because of this, and they did not have any significant problem. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info or http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Kamikaz-bee In-Reply-To: <003601c37090$4a7837e0$0a00000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Sep 2003 at 14:49, Dave Cushman wrote: > I have always assumed that the Kamikaz-bee was a heightend state of > guarding behaviour, but when I think about it I have nothing concrete to > hang this assumption on. Hmmmm...I've always assumed they were just grumpy old coots that had nothing to live for anymore. But I guess I was extrapolating too much from humans I've known. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info or http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Madeleine Nist Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <200309010401.h813VnxZ026428@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone said: >This year I will weigh the colonies in September to record each colonies >weight. In spring I can more easily conclude what a three story hive, two >story hive, and a nuc should weigh before winter sets in. This would be good >information for many beekeepers to gather for their locations. Do you overwinter nucs? I was told there wasn't enough brood, feed or warm space in a 5-frame nuc to survive a winter. If a nuc can survive an Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How do you do it? --Madeleine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 In-Reply-To: <001301c370bb$80091520$4ab85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Sep 2003 at 13:01, allen dick wrote: > From that, I would tend to conclude that his case was not 'exactly this > scenario'. He admits to evolving to the point where he was NOT being > stung regularly. He also says that after his bad experience, he made > sure he got stung regularly, without fail. I gather he has had no such > problem since. I've mentioned this before, but it's relevant here, that I had a sudden severe reaction following surgery, when I was on an NSAID (painkiller) drug. Once the drug was clear of my system, I had no further problem. Anyone who has a sudden problem should be asked what drugs they are taking?? It might solve some of these situations. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info or http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:03:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There was a case in Australia a few years back where a commercial > beekeeper became allergic to bees. He had to give up keeping bees > and had to have the series of injections to become de-sensitized. The question here is whether anyone knows of anyone who became allergic even when receiving regular stinging, defined perhaps as several times a month? Do you know more details? Some commercial beekeepers seldom, if ever get stung. We had a speaker -- supposedly a commercial beekeeper -- come up from Argentina to talk at a convention, and if I understand correctly, he had never been stung. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Madeleine & All, > Do you overwinter nucs? I was told there wasn't enough brood, feed or warm > space in a 5-frame nuc to survive a winter. > > If a nuc can survive an Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How > do you do it? > I have gotten ten frame deep single brood box colonies through winter but I am just yet trying to winter five frame nucs that are tandem in one deep brood box on their own honey stores. I am hoping to get at least one of the three through winter, that will tell me if it is at all possible. I have seen ten frame miniature mating nucs come through winter, so I have high hopes for nucs to survive our winters. It would help my goals to succeed with nucs wintering. To be progressive at anything that one does they must be willing to do a certain amount of experimenting. MikeP. in Vermont winters nucs, so I would think that you could do it in New Jersey. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:07:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Madeleine, I was told there wasn't enough brood, feed or warm > space in a 5-frame nuc to survive a winter. This isn't true at all. Many 4 and five frame nucs are wintered over double screen boards in the north east. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:02:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Wintering nucs (was Wax foundation, isn't everything lately?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > MikeP. in Vermont winters nucs, so I would think > that you could do it in New Jersey. Ditto here in upstate NY. 4-frame nucs, two in a deep box. Jersey should be a snap. What exit? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 02:37:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Wax foundation >If a nuc can survive an Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How do you do it? 5 frame stand alone nucs can be overwintered here in Alaska. I've gotten them through (although not routinely) in the past. Last winter I banked an Alaska raised queen in a 5 frame nuc insulated with a 1-inch thickness of styrofaom and wrapped in tar paper. The queen was used to head up a split made this spring on another overwintered hive. Incidentally both the nuc and the overwintered hives were fed sugar syrup (Hi Keith! ) Regards Dick Allen Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:03:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: cane sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This subject seems to be an ‘end of summer-get ready for wintering’ tradition here on Bee-L. I, too, used to believe that honey was vastly superior as an overwintering food for bees. Intuitively, it seemed to me that it had to be. It was, after all, something the bees made themselves. Part of my problem with the honey vs. sugar thing was that I simply *didn’t want to believe* sugar could be as good as or even better in some cases than honey. “With regard to the types of honey and sugar suitable for winter stores, much depends on whether the winters are cold (with long spells when bees cannot fly out of the hive to defecate), or mild and with no long spells when flight is impossible. Where winters are mild, various forms of unrefined sugar may be fed, but for cold winters refined sugar, such as white table sugar, must be used. For a similar reason, honeys containing material that cannot be absorbed by the honeybee gut are unsuitable as the sole food for colonies in cold winters–for instance most honeydew honeys, especially if crystallized and heather honey (Calluna vulgaris). Combs of such honeys can, however, be left in the hive for winter, provided at least 5-10 kg refined sugar is also fed. There is quite a lot of evidence that colonies wintered entirely on sugar syrup, with no honey, perform less satisfactorily in the next active season than colonies wintered with some honey; this is one reason for not harvesting honey combs from the brood boxes.” Eva Crane’s “Bees and Beekeeping Science, Practice and World Resources” Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:17:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Weighing hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The total hive weight can be found by weighing each side (with a tension spring balance or a shallow platform scale), (just lift it clear of the ground and no more to avoid error-the more off level the hive is when you take the reading the more error) and adding the weights together.e.g. weigh one side =50lb, weigh other side =40lb, then total weight is 90lb There is one proviso - when weighing each side, you must weigh at the "ground support" point. Usually the hive supports are at the outer edge and this is not a problem. However if the floor has supports, inset from the edges, then it is a problem. Remember the trick is to weigh at the support points -you are finding the force with which the supports press down on the ground- add them and you've got the total weight I've made up a weigh-hook from a piece of 8 mm (5/16") x 750mm (30") rod with a 50mm right angle bend at one end to hook under the hive support (hook up the last 10mm to prevent it slipping out) and an acute bend at the other end to take the hook from a 25 kg (50lb) spring balance. This allows the spring balance to be attached a bit nearer eye level. Keep the hook/spring balance as vertical as possible. For heavy weights, keep your back under the support and get someone else to read the spring balance Alan Riach Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:40:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <001301c37110$1ce39c40$010b17d1@buzzybee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >This isn't true at all. Many 4 and five frame nucs are wintered over double >screen boards in the north east. > >Clay Cancel the double screens, and use a solid board. Too much moisture with screen. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:43:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: Wax foundation (double screen/ solid board) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, > Cancel the double screens, and use a solid board. Too much moisture with screen. Never noticed a problem with moisture in the nucs. I will have to look at this more carefully now that you say this. Will inner cover with porter escape hole duct taped work? How about a grain sack (plastic material type) seperating the nucs from parent with no board? Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:23:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Madeleine asked "If a nuc can survive an Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How do you do it?" Many hundreds of nucs are overwintered successfully here in upstate NY and in Northern Vermont. Moreover, many of them are 4-frame nucs (rather than 5 frame). I gather you don't subscribe to the magazines as both have recently had articles on the subject. A very brief summary is: 1. Have the nucs just about plugged out with honey. 2. Use the 'right' kind of queen. One that will turn off brood production when it gets cold. Carniolan is ideal, Italian is probably the least desirable. 3. Provide lots of upper ventilation. In northern Vermont the guys I know put the nucs on top of regular hives. Two nucs in a standard deep with a divider board and entrances on opposite sides. Here in upstate NY I overwinter both on top of regular hives and in single 5-frame boxes left to their own devices. Unless you are in the Jersey mountains, I'd suggest using 5-frame nuc boxes as they are somewhat more simple to manage. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:00:57 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Paradigm Shift Alan said: > I came across a quote at > http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2003/20030829/default.htm > that I think, with a little adaptation, can apply very well to beekeeping: Funny you should mention that particular quote. The quote is the start of the giant flushing sound of the worldwide economy continuing to go down the drain, at least until 2004. With wages stagnant and growing unemployment, honey sales at retail will certainly go down, both in price and volume. Honey is an "optional" purchase. Like everyone using the term "paradigm", Alan Greenspan was trying to avoid stating the plain and simple truth. The speech was a desperate attempt to make excuses and retain some tiny shred of his former credibility. I, for one, will no longer trust anything Greenspan says any further than I could comfortably spit a rat. The short story is that he LIED this spring. That's unheard of in the history of the Fed. I might as well now put my money into Argentinean oil futures as US Treasury notes. :) The "risk factor" mentioned was the Fed ITSELF. The "probabilities" were the likelihood that the Fed would IN THE FUTURE overtly mislead the investment community. What does this have to do with beekeeping? Stick with me, Greenspan put YOUR money where his mouth was, and then said "just kidding". I don't care which flag you fly, Greenspan and the Fed hurt the whole planet, which insures not only continued depressed honey prices, but also lower demand, even at lower prices than we have now. This might strike some as "off-topic" for this list. If so, go ahead and hit delete, but I think beekeepers need to pay attention to "money", as we are all affected by both the worldwide market for honey, and the planet's economy. In May, the short-term interest rate was 1.25%. Greenspan spoke about an "unwelcome substantial fall in inflation", and mentioned implementing "unconventional policy", meaning actions other than tweaking interest rates. This made sense, since when the interest rate is down around 1%, you can't get much impact from cutting interest rates to "get the economy going". "Unconventional" means "buy backs" of long-term Treasury notes in an attempt to CREATE some "inflation". The idea is to avoid the specter of "deflation" by paying attention to LONGER TERM rates rather than the short-term rates. Other Fed officials echoed this thinking in press interviews. (While setting a "goal" for more inflation may sound weird, England, Europe, Mexico, New Zealand, and a bunch of other central banks do this often.) So, if money were honey, the Fed would been the biggest beekeeper on the planet saying that he was going to BUY UP and stockpile honey, rather than simply adjusting his asking price for honey. What happened? Well, I trade bonds, and I knew: a) The Fed only had only 1% left to cut on the short-term rate b) If the Fed bought up a serious chunk of long-term notes, this would reduce (or eliminate!) downside risk on longer-term Treasury bonds. c) If they made a short term rate cut of about 0.5% and bought up long-term notes, this would be a reasonable move, and would have a positive impact on the planet's economy. So, everyone and his sock puppet bought (more) long-term notes. On June 3, Greenspan told a Berlin conference that what was needed was a "fire break" between the U.S. economy and deflation. Clearly, this meant that the Fed was concerned that even a cut from 1.25% to 0.25% on the short-term rate would not be enough. So, everyone and his brother-in-law bought even MORE long-term notes, expecting both a serious cut in the short term rate and a bond buy-back. People who had NEVER traded bonds before starting "getting in". Then, on June 25, the Fed cut interest rates, but only by 0.25%. My models (why do you THINK we call it the "Supercollider"?) told me that I should dump about 35% of my long-term notes RIGHT AWAY. If the Fed cut the short term rate by only a lousy 0.25%, this meant that the planned "firewall" had been reduced to a mere "coat of paint", and that the Fed was NOT going to do anything more. Lots of other people did not notice that the Feds actions did not match their words. On July 15, Greenspan dropped the other shoe, telling Congress that "situations requiring special policy actions (like buy-backs of bonds) are most unlikely to arise." The lynch mob starting forming almost at once. They got CONNED by ALAN GREENSPAN, of all people! He and his cronies created a "bubble" in the long-term bond markets, of all things. That's kinda unprecedented. Its not what bonds are for. People who invest in long-term bonds are risk-averse by nature. People started dumping long-term bonds en masse, the opposite of what the Fed wanted. People who might have held their bonds if not for the lies starting dumping bonds. Rates went down further. How did all this hurt you? Well, were did all that money that went into long-term bonds come from? From other investments! Rather than getting more money into circulation and investments, money went into long-term bonds, and is now thrashing around looking for "safe havens", creating more instability than there was before. Gee, thanks Alan! Guess what is NOT a "safe haven" any more as a result? So, now one sees headlines like this one: "Don't read too much into our speeches, Fed officials tell bankers" http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=439046 When you have to start IGNORING what the Chairman of the US Federal Reserve says in public, a "prudent long-term investment" is quickly re-defined by the smart money as "burying coffee cans full of cash in the back yard". A better way to get an actual recovery going might be to bury Alan Greenspan in the back yard. jim (Who suffers from "Deficit Attention Disorder") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:45:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wintering nucs (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Madeleine asked Keith: " Do you overwinter nucs? I was told there wasn't enough brood, feed or warm > > space in a 5-frame nuc to survive a winter. If a nuc can survive an Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How do you do it?" While we wait for Keith to reply , perhaps a few comments on theory may help. Madeleine mentions brood, food and space but omits the most important - the right amount of young bees. Bees form a hollow cluster in winter with an outer crust that can get as dense as 25 bees per cubic inch - I have not checked the books, but there are many on the list who love to correct details if wrong. The crust insulates the open space in the middle where the queen and nurses are free to move - so bees can re-start brood rearing in mid-winter. Now bees on the outside of the crust must not fall below 6 degrees centrigrade (?) or they become moribund and unable to move. However, the temperature in the hollow centre must not rise above about 35 degrees centigrade or the bees de-hydrate too quickly and their lives are shortened. So u have a situation that can be studied by physics - given the two outer limits for temperature, what range does that create for the insulation value of the crust, and what thickness is needed? Then u have to consider the heat produced at the centre (and throughout the crust) by consumption of honey that has to balance the heat lost from the outside of the cluster due to temperature difference between the minimum for bees and the (variable) weather temperature, and u can then test the effectiveness of various sizes of cluster ie total numbers of bees in the nuc. Where this gets u - speaking from memory - is that (surprisingly) a cluster can be too big, especially in temperate zones, as the internal temperature gets forced too high. Medium sized clusters winter better. In very cold zones however, I presume a larger number of bees will be needed to form the thicker/denser crust. So if I was experimenting, I would start with 5 or 6 frame nucs on very tall combs (Eastern Europeans have used combs 12 inches wide by 14 inches deep), after calculaing how much fuel the nuc is going to need and checking that the 60-80 pounds needed can be accomodated above the early winter cluster. Then I would crowd the nuc with YOUNG bees, sufficient to form the crust, and young enough not to die out too quickly in spring (which causes spring dwindling). To get the young bees, I would initiate feeding in autumn late enough that bees do not age thru foraging, but early enough for say two brood cycles, - and I would use honey for breeding but sugar+pollen for the final feed that will take the cluster thru the inactive period. All very theoetical. The best ref I know on the physics is E B Wedmore, Ventilation of Bee-hives, 1947 - 115 pages. There are brains on this list which rev nicely on problems in physics - perhaps they will expand. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:27:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen quotes George : "When I started in 1933, stings produced swelling and itching which lessened as I got more stings; but 30 years later, I had learned so much BEE BEHAVIOR that I > was not getting stung very often and my developed immunity titer lost > its volume from lack of use. Then I suddenly got a bunch of stings, and > my body could not handle it". This is the worrying scenario. Beekeepers are urged now to keep quiet bees - I have killed off rough colonies , and in particular 'followers' who wait till u unveil 50 yards away , so this season have been stung only say 6 times when handling colonies without veil or gloves. That is getting dangerously low, and must be common experience now for many beekeepers. The best book overall seems to be Dr L R Croft (Dept of Biological Sciences, Salford Uny), Allergy to Bee Stings and its Prevention, 1988, 80pages, ISBN 0 946019 03 7. Not a bundle of laughs. A table lists all deaths from stings recorded in literature 1835 to 1982 - several had association with bees as beekeepers but it is not clear any worked full time with bees. Most at risk are beekeepers and families - beekeepers inhale fine dust when hives are first opened as well as from clothes. Beekeepers get warning since sensitivity increases by stages before the final sting brings on shock. Women are more sensitive than men - but pregnant women have aborted after only one sting. Worst thought from skimming the book is that I often get a bee in the hair when working without veil and smack it quickly, leaving smeared venom. Then I put my head all night right close up to my wife's nose..... Number of deaths is small - but bee venom is as toxic as rattlesnake, and bees can deliver it better - deaths exceed snake bite (Oertel and Loehr 1984 estimated 50 to 100 per year in US), and all sudden deaths in the countryside should be tested for bee stings - symptoms are similar to heart failure. Normal desensitisation involves 18 injections over 20 weeks, dose builds to equal of 2 stings. BUT sensitivity is increased just after an injection, so treatment is NOT started between May and August for risk of a natural sting bringing on shock. SO, does that mean beekeepers who are becoming sensitive should make sure they start getting 1 sting a week in say Feb, rising to 2 per week? And should we perform our own apitherapy, putting bees on the hand and pressing to make them sting? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:30:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin brought up some fascinating matters concerning the winter cluster. I'd like to add one, that may be implied by his comments, but isn't clearly stated. For years the assumption was that the bees rotated positions so those on the outside could get warm. In the past several years it has been discovered that the bees pretty much stay where they start. Imagine, in these frigid climates that an animal as small as a bee can survive for 4 months or longer at just above freezing, with nothing to eat (only those on the inner layers below the 'crust' eat and shiver to create heat). Shows how much we have to learn about bees and how they survive. When bees get temperatures warm enough to break their cluster and move the bees in the layers DO change, but I recall that there is no massive reorganization such as all those formerly on the inside moving out, etc. AFAIK, Mark Winston was the first to describe the layers and the lack of bee movement, but several have duplicated his data and observations. Around here, there are those who have sufficiently selected bees for overwintering that a 4-frame nuc in early November will have a teacup of bees. Maybe a fist full. Come April there will still be 1 to 1.5 full frames of honey, and lots of brood. At dandelion bloom (May 15-20) they will swarm if not given enough room. These are dark bees, but more gray/brown than black. I suspect a great deal of Caucasian mixed with carniolan. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:35:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wintering nucs (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & All, > If a nuc can survive an > Alaskan winter, it could survive even here in NJ! How do you do it?" > While we wait for Keith to reply , perhaps a few comments on theory may > help. > I have already replied, I can not really say how I do it because this will be the first winter trying. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Wax foundation (double screen/ solid board) In-Reply-To: <011401c37171$57716c00$010b17d1@buzzybee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Will inner cover with porter >escape hole duct taped work? Yes >How about a grain sack (plastic material type) >seperating the nucs from parent with no board? > > probably similar to screen. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:31:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Wintering nucs In-Reply-To: <00e701c3719d$2ef94c80$6578bc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > So u have a situation >that can be studied by physics - >Robin Dartington. Well, I don't think physics has much to do with it. I guess raising nucs for over-wintering is as much of a time line as anything. Figuring out the procedure can't be done from an armchair with a slide rule, and a physics book. What is needed is a fundamental understanding of how bees live in your own area...you in the UK, and me in northern Vermont. A good student of apiculture knows when brood rearing shutdown is for their location. They know how long it takes to raise a queen from an egg, and how long it takes her to get laying...and then how long it takes for her to change over the population of her new colony. So, instead of using physics to figure out if your bees are yet crusty enough to survive the winter, draw up a time line instead. Start at brood rearing shutdown...October first say. Count back 6 weeks...the time needed to change over the population...August 15th. Count back 14 days...the time needed for the cell to hatch, the queen to get bred, and begin to lay...August 1st Count back 20 days...the time needed to raise the cell...July 12th. So, the time line says the latest I want to make a nuc/cell is August first. Best time from experience...July 15 - 31 Also, I think you are missing the point on the reason for making the nucs at this time of year. Less is better. Less equipment, less bees, less feed. You don't need 5 or six oversized frames...four standard will do just fine. Four on one side of the divider, and four on the other. The nucs seem to make one large 8 frame cluster, even with a division board feeder between them. And 60 to 80 lbs of feed? Sounds like you are trying to over-winter a full sized colony. That's not the idea. Four frame nucs will winter on 20 founds of feed or less. Robin, I fully realize you are in the UK. Your flows are different...therefore your beekeeping management is different. But, since we were talking of wintering nucs in New Jersey, Alaska, and Vermont, that is all I can address. I raise and over-winter 150 to 300 nucs each year...with good results. I too, at first, balked. I really couldn't believe such a weak unit could survive the winter here in the north. My friend tried for years to get me to try this plan, and was right when he said I would kick myself when I realized how simple it was. Well...Kick, kick, kick. I was able to give up my pollination contracts 'cause I didn't need the money to buy replacement bees and queens. And my five year average has gone up to 100 lbs, because I don't have to split my strong colonies in the spring to replace dead-outs. So, what I am trying to say is...believe in the bees. Make the nucs at the correct time, and the bees will take care of themselves. Even if you can't see far enough ahead to know how this will change your beekeeping forever... Just do it! Mike...with 250 wicked crusty nucs, cramming goldenrod into their combs as fast as they can. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:07:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, The the most plausible hypothetical explanation for the case of the "suicide bee" that presumably flew into an active "smoker" has nothing to do with honeybee behavior beyond the fact that a bee is small and light, that guard bees are attracted to moving objects, such as a beekeeper, and his "smoker", and that the bee was airborne at the time, i.e. it was not holding onto any substrate. The assumption that the bee actively flew into the "smoker" is groundless, and probably also utterly misleading, because it obscures the effects of the physics of fires. Fires, whether large or small, cause in rushing winds, due to cooler air that moves in to replace the hot air that moves up and away from the fire, and due to oxygen that moves in to replace the oxygen "consumed" by the fire. In the case of the small fire inside the "smoker" such a wind may be very light, but its suction power is further augmented by additional air that moves in to inflate the bellow after the beekeeper deflates it. All this may suffice to suck in a small light airborne object like a honeybee that happened to get close enough to the opening of the "smoker". Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:38:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith, >It was once believed that the earth was flat and if one was to sail to the >edge that one would fall off the edge and perish. > It was never a scientifically proposed idea that the world was flat. In fact as far back as the ancient greeks the spherical earth was known. You may be correct about honey, but your example is hogwash. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron, >They walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but DID NOT taste like a duck, > Crow berries do not look much like blueberries, and the plants they grow on are not even similar to blueberries. Come on . . . Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:49:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: (double screen/ solid board) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all The sort of board being described for separating a couple of nucs above a fullsized colony, is described on the page http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ratsplit.html The dimensions used on this page are for British National hives, but the principles are easily extended to other hive sizes. Clay & Michael were discussing solid or ventilated versions. I have used both, in winter and summer conditions and I could not find any noticable difference. I used 9 mm ply, 6 mm ply and 5 mm play at various times... 9 mm stays flat and does not warp. 6 mm warps and twists and so does 5 mm, but 5 mm has a lower heat insulating value. The ventilated versions were of two types some had large areas of 8 mesh and some had a porter escape hole covered with 8 mesh or perforated zinc. I was intending to try an experiment using 20 mesh vent panels on the basis that varroa could not pass the mesh, but I can't remember the rest of the reason for the experiment. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:22:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Wintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Michael Palmer" : " Robin, I fully realize you are in the UK. Your flows are > different...therefore your beekeeping management is different" Don't get me wrong - I do not winter nucs, no need, winter losses in UK are so small, coped with by wintering a few swarms as full colonies - I am sitting here learning - contributing a bit of book theory teases out experience from others - your time line is really clear and insightful. Also your DOUBLE nuc boxes, two nucs forming a single cluster with a central divider, which part explains how small lots survive (I suspect u also get other factors right, such as an outer cover to keep boxes dry and so avoid wind-chill, and the correct amount of top ventilation which perhaps u keep open at first then close when new brood starts - yes? or no? More detail would be very interesting. We could adapt for the UK climate - and perhaps more of us could start to make and over-winter nucs for sale to new beekeepers in spring. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:33:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Stings LD50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit after Allen wrote " I know of no serious beekeepers who have become allergic to bees", Mats Andersson wrote: " This is both good and bad news. Good that i won't become allergic, bad that i need to get my wife and kids a few stings. They won't like it..." Difficult one to sell - but it does seem beekeeper's families are a high risk group if they get only venom dust and not stings. Croft (in 'Allergy to Bee Stings') offers one small maketing point: 'apamin, the neurotoxic component of bee venom, is the only peptide small enough to pass the blood/brain barrier' and somewhere he says that beekeepers actually feel better when recovering from a stinging. Croft does not link the statements but well-being is presumably experienced in the brain. So u could tell your wife u are getting her stung to help her feel better. More seriously: MCD-peptide was isolated from bee venom in 1973 and found to have 100 times the activity of hydrocortisone in the rat paw oedema test (I do not know what that means either). It was shown to be effective in preventing adjuvant-induced arthritis in rats when administered at a subcutaneous dosage of about 4mg/kg. Arthritis blights life for many people - but the bad thought is that the tested dosage is vast compared with only a single sting or two. Whether we should in fact immunise our families by inducing stinging is not wholly one-sided in Croft. The immunisation process has brought on anaphalactic shock in many patients , rather than guard against it. It will depend on how far members of our families have already gone down the road to sensitivity due to inhaling dust - in beekeepers, sensitivity has been found not to develop until the beekeeper had received the first 23 stings. Medical advice should perhaps always be sought - but not all local doctors are experienced in apitherapy, and many cases of death from stings are supposed to go unrecorded. The more recent but less comprehensive book - Dr Harry Riches (medical doctor) , Medical Aspects of Beekeeping, 2000, ISBN 0905 652 55 X does NOT recommend stinging oneself or family. The check list - Advoiding Trouble - concentrates on QUIET BEES, and careful practice to avoid stings. Croft is interesting in that apparently fear plays a part in losing control of reaction to stings . Several stung people witnessed that they were about to die - and then did. Croft ends by saying "one should first examine whether or not the particular fear of bees could be removed or at least lessened. In this way the immunotheraputic treatment will have the greatest chance of success". This is one reason I feel my 'Meet the bees' sessions at a local school are perhaps helping the children - once they have (young, stingless) bees (from an Apidea mating hive) running over their bare hands, they seem to go thru a barrier - the risk is that fear is quickly replaced by bravardo. Let us know Mats how your wife liked it - and if you are still together! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: National Honey Board to continue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " WASHINGTON, Sept. 2, 2003 -- The U.S. Department of Agriculture announced today that honey producers and importers voted in a July-August referendum to continue their Honey Research, Promotion, and Consumer Information Order. In the referendum, 59.24 percent of those who voted favored continuance of the program. Those favoring continuance represented 61.37 percent of the volume of honey produced and imported by those voting in the referendum. To continue the program, voters representing more than 50 percent of the honey produced and imported by those voting needed to favor the program." For more details, go to www.nhb.org. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Crow berries do not look much like blueberries, and the > plants they grow > on are not even similar to blueberries. Come on . . . The plants looked pretty similar to me, and the berries were dead ringers. Come on what? /Aa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ruth Rosin provides a very interesting that the "suicide bee" got sucked into the smoker, but I have to respectfully stick to my original post that the bee flew into the dark hole of the smoker because bees are attracted towards dark spots (like your eyes). I have see bees fly into the spout of a smoker MANY times; no puffing, no sucking ... well, it DID suck for the bee, but the bee was not sucked into the smoker. Aaron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:17:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another Observation “For years,” Lloyd posits, “the assumption was that the bees rotated positions so those on the outside could get warm. In the past several years it has been discovered that the bees pretty much stay where they start. Imagine, in these frigid climates that an animal as small as a bee can survive for 4 months or longer at just above freezing, with nothing to eat (only those on the inner layers below the 'crust' eat and shiver to create heat). Shows how much we have to learn about bees and how they survive.” The rotation hypothesis, assuming it is indeed a hogwash now, may have been derived/deduced from observing other creatures in a similar environment, such as penguins in the Antarctica: they do rotate, doing a “Texas tush-push to the tune of Cotton-Eye Joe,” to windbreak against the onslaught of the ocean-blasting chill. Also certain Siberian frogs, it is well-documented, would freeze their body only to thaw come spring, like magic, a naturally-occurring death and resurrection feat humans now attempt to achieve while, so far, swindling the wet-behind-the-ears. Well over a decade ago, during my salad days of bee-having, I found in March a colony dead of starvation: a fistful of bees frozen-stuck in the upper comb, forming the classical half-moon. Thinking I needed to clean up the mess, I banged the frame against the hive and dislodged the bees. The unpredictable spring weather was still chilly, one of those cold days when you don’t even need any protection, and the bees on the ground looked dead, immobile; however, I found out, as the temperature got up later in the afternoon, that they had not been completely dead: they seemed to crawl ever so slightly on the ground as the sun warmed up their reptilian circulation. Later they, the queen and all, disappeared into the outback of Oklahoma. Sure, bees may not hibernate, but they were, according to my limited observation then, in some sort of stupor—-lethargic and immobile—- at the point of near death. Yet they lingered their demise, now worsened by the all-knowing beehaver. I also hear anecdotes as to how a frozen bee, found outside in winter, will come back to life, once brought in indoors, reminding me of many similar cases involving humans, particularly the one about a stranded infant in freezing cold that made news. The Russian medical community, I gather, has been taking advantage of this open secret: a really dead person is a warm dead, not frozen dead. Something is going on here. Living in Oklahoma, I prefer cold weather in winter so that my bees would not consume as much; sometimes I had to feed them in the dead winter, which is really weird, yet not uncommon. It matters little as to how much I have left for them: I keep them in two deeps. Winter is supposed to be cold, but not any more, it seems. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:08:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: HONEY INDUSTRY VOTES TO CONTINUE ITS RESEARCH AND PROMOTION PROGR AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" HONEY INDUSTRY VOTES TO CONTINUE ITS RESEARCH AND PROMOTION PROGRAM WASHINGTON, Sept. 2, 2003 -- The U.S. Department of Agriculture announced today that honey producers and importers voted in a July-August referendum to continue their Honey Research, Promotion, and Consumer Information Order. In the referendum, 59.24 percent of those who voted favored continuance of the program. Those favoring continuance represented 61.37 percent of the volume of honey produced and imported by those voting in the referendum. To continue the program, voters representing more than 50 percent of the honey produced and imported by those voting needed to favor the program. The honey research and promotion program is administered by the National Honey Board. It is funded by an assessment of one cent per pound on domestic and imported honey. The order is authorized by the Honey Research, Promotion, and Consumer Information Act. USDA's Agricultural Marketing Service conducted the referendum by mail ballot. Research and promotion programs help to expand, maintain, and develop markets for individual agricultural commodities in the United States and abroad. These industry self-help programs are requested and funded by the industry groups that they serve. The secretary of agriculture appoints national boards to carry out these programs. The boards conduct promotion, market research, production research, and new product development under the supervision of AMS. The programs are funded by assessments collected by the board and, for import assessments, by the U.S. Customs Service. More information about these programs is at http://www.ams.usda.gov/repromo.htm. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:24:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Ruminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been sitting here reading BEE-L and watching people dispute what others report that they saw, and what they think they saw. Sometimes the inference is that there is only one possible understanding, and that therefore everyone cannot be at least partially right. I'd like to argue the opposite: In my experience, No one is ever completely wrong. Here's what I've personally learned from watching BEE-L for the last decade: 1. Even a small distance in time or space can make huge a difference in the climate, the genotype and/or genotype of animals and plants, behaviour, etc.. 2. Words mean different things to different people in different places. Some people appreciate a limited range when it comes to style of expression, sometimes without respecting or appreciating other perfectly valid writing styles. 3. People think differently. Individual makeup, education, background, age, country, etc. are huge factors. 4. What we think we see is largely influenced by what we have heard and seen previously. What we have heard and seen is often irrelevant to the current situation, misunderstood, or simply fanciful speculation. 5. When we accept that what others report must have some basis in fact and try to examine how it relates to what we know, rather than rejecting it out of hand, we learn a lot. Some interesting advances in beekeeping knowledge have originated on this list. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:25:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> They walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but DID NOT taste like >> a duck, >> > Crow berries do not look much like blueberries, and the plants they > grow on are not even similar to blueberries. Personally, from appearance, I'd have thought what we saw were blueberries, if not for the bush. As it happens, I had a camera. The wild crowberries we saw are at http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/stan1.jpg. Cultivated 'wild' blueberries grown in a field near the crowberries are shown at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/blueberry.jpg. FWIW, both images are part of http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary081003.htm, which is one page of my daily diary at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ The *berries* themselves, appeared *very* similar to some blueberries. I did not taste them, but to the eye, the berries were darker than wild berries and the ones shown above, but similar in size and colour to some large blueberries sold in the stores. The crowberry bushes we saw, however, were dense, and very different in structure from any blueberry bush I've seen. It was also sufficiently different from the ones shown in the initial images offered by Gavin that I was still not completely sure of the ID after looking at those references. The ones in his references on the web were taller, less dense, and the berries were not as thick on the plants. We were able to walk on the crowberry bushes we saw. To my recollection, they were like a thick carpet. Then Charlie sent me a reference to http://www.darktickle.com/crowberryinfo.aspx , that seems to me to be almost exactly what we saw. That does not surprise me, since Newfoundland is very close to PEI, and plants, even in the same species, vary considerably in appearance and habit from place to place. Everyone is right, at least a little bit. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:29:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To & All, > You may be correct about honey, but your example is hogwash. > Thank you Tom, I am glad you agree with my example. By the way, hogwash is full of nutrients that are beneficial for plant growth, so if that too is an analogy, it compares well with how honey bees can do better with real honey compared with sugar phoney. > It was never a scientifically proposed idea that the world was flat. > In fact as far back as the ancient greeks the spherical earth was known. > And if you go back even further the Sumerians believed that there was 12 planets, including the moon and one that only comes around to pass around the sun once every several thousand years. So what, that was not my point. My example to you may be hogwash to you but the fact remains that it was the popular believe of the day, scientific or not. The analogy was presented as being similar to how it is popular for beekeepers to believe that bees may perish if left their honey and not fed sugar syrup. You simply did not understand my analogy just as some do not understand the bees they keep. As we go forward in time we will go on one of two paths, the right path, or the wrong path. At the moment I am comfortable with the path I am on, succeeding with the bee I keep, not using dopes in the hive, letting the bees live on the stores they collected, breeding from survivors, allowing the bees to live in a clean house on clean wax. If cleanliness is next to Godliness, then I am keeping bees they way God would want them to be kept, clean. At the moment the path that mainstream beekeeping is on is not leading to a clean system for the bees to thrive on and the possible reason for why colonies continue to perish on such a system. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:08:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Ruminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, I think I have observed the same things. At the time each one was right. Bees, as well as people, do not act the same always. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Ruminations Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hmmmmm. In a nutshell, then, “What you are is what you know, and what you know depends on your ontological circumstance, the way you have been brought up— -this piggy bag we must carry to our tomb that contains genderal, educational, racial, sexual, ethnic, economical, geographical, national, generational, ideological, and other differences,” to wax James Burke, the author of *The Day the Universe Changed*. Worse, we see only what we *want/expect to see*, as proven by Gestalt illustrations: one can argue, till death us part, that an object is a vase/hare while another can fume it is a table leg/pigeon, etc. Ces’t la vie. Sometimes opposition for the sake of opposition is healthy/good, for under the Nazis governance, 99% of all the followers believed in only one truth. Diversity is good fighting against varroa, for instance, since it includes non-treatment whatever as in my case. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Said: The assumption that the bee actively flew into the "smoker" is groundless, and probably also utterly misleading, because it obscures the effects of the physics of fires. ----------- Sorry, Ruth, but I have to disagree with your otherwise excellent analysis of the "Suicide bee" incident. The smoker was sitting alone on the tailgate of my truck, not moving. The bee was overing about 8 inches above the smoker spout for a few seconds, then quite deliberately dove into the smoke spout. No amount of fire related physics could account for this. The bee was totally in control of its actions. After some thought on this, here is my hypothesis: There was some honey on the outside of the smoker from several days previous. The guard bee, having been alerted by my prior hive manipulations, smelled the honey, and investigated. When she hovered over the smoker, she was irritated by the heat and smoke, and, perceiving threat to the hive, tried to sting the offending smoker, diving into the dark "eye" of the smoker, as Aaron has suggested. End of guard bee. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:07:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wax foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: As we go forward in time we will go on one of two paths, the right path, or the wrong path. I like the go forward part of the above as opposed to the many people which in my opinion are sitting still, going backwards or *asleep at the wheel*. Rather than say right or wrong path I would say life is a series of choices along the same path. Turn right or turn left but keeping on pressing forward. If you are as Keith says *on the wrong path* the path will soon intersect with as Keith says *the right path* and opportunity arises to change direction. Only a fool in my opinion closes his mind to all other path choices and presses on regardless (but only my opinion). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:03:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I suggested as the most plausible explanation for the "suicide bee" report, that the bee did not actively fly into the smoker's spout, but was sucked in by the in-rushing wind caused by a fire, and the possible additional suction created by air rushing in to inflate the bellow deflated by the beekeeper. Todd who reported the original observation, and mentioned then that the bee might have been attracted by the smell of some honey left on the smoker from previous activity, has now provided additional details: The smoker was stationary. The bee hovered for a while some 8 inches above the smoker, before it presumably dove in. He claims that this proves that the bee was in full control of its motion; that it actively flew into the opening of the smoker, possibly perceiving the smoke and heat as a threat to be attacked, and that no fire-physics could explain what he observed. I accept that the bee could have been attracted odors of the honey (more strongly diffusing from the surface of the hot smoker). Also, the additional details preclude the possibility of suction due to air rushing in to inflate a deflated bellow. However: 1. I seriously question the idea that a guard-bee would attack hot smoke. On the contrary, I strongly suspect that a bee in full control of its flight woul! d be stopped by the heat, instead of try to attack the source of the smoke. More about the "eye" of the smoker, later. 2. A fire, no matter whether large or small always results in an in-rushing wind. I had completely forgotten about that, because I initially accepted at face-value the original report that the "suicide bee" flew into the smoker. I could not however get that report out of my mind without being able to come up with a plausible explanation. Very sadly, I recalled the information regarding the in-rushing winds caused by fires, after reading the NYPD recently released tapes of Sept. 11, which included the mention of a very strong sudden wind...I then checked the Internet for additional information about fire-physics, and realized that the effect of an in-rushing wind should be considered even in the case of a small fire inside a smoker, because such a wind occurs even in the case of a burning small candle. You do not need a wind-storm to suck in an airborne objec! t that is as small and light as a bee that gets close enough to the "eye" of a lit smoker. I then realized that I did not earlier consider the possible effect of the in-rushing wind because I assumed that the "suicide bee" actually flew into the smoker, as reported. 3. I then further realized that a casual observation can in no way enable an observer to distinguish between a bee that actively flies into a smoker, and a bee that is being passively sucked in once it gets close enough; which means that Todd's claim that the "suicide bee" was fully in control of its flight is not substantiated by any evidence. Aaron has now reported that he often saw a bees flying into a smoker. I do not know whether the smoker was contaminated with honey in all such cases, but perhaps one should assume that a used smoker usually is so contaminated. Aaron suggests that the "suicide bee" actively flew into the smoker, because bees are attracted to dark spots, "like your eyes". However: 1. The belief that bees attack people who wear black clothes (apparently passed from one generation to another among some beekeepers in Ireland) turned out to be a myth. And I strongly suspect that so also is the belief that bees are attracted to black spots (except in the case of nest-scouts that are probably attracted to black spots only if the spots also carry odors the bees had learned to associate with their home-nest). 2. If bees performing field-chores other than nest-scouting were to be attracted by just any black spot, they would be wasting a lot of time and energy on utterly useless activities, while being distracted from doing that which they need to do. Evolution could hardly result in such behavior.3. Guard-bees are of course attracted to moving objects. However if a bee that seems ready to attack flies in front of your eyes, this may simply be due to the fact that even if you follow the right advice (freeze, instead of try to run away, or drive the bee away) you still almost inevitably keep moving your eyes (irrespective of their color) to follow the bee that is buzzing in front of you. In short, so far I have seen no evidence to justify the claim that "suicide bees" actively fly into the "eye" of a smoker. Nor have I seen any evidence that suffices to preclude the possibility that the bees were simply passively sucked in once they got close enough. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:10:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, How many have noticed that a smoker sitting idle actually does not have any inrush of "wind" from the top? Smoke drifts slowly out and the air intake comes from below. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:58:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Identify Berries? Well, I can see how crowberries could be confused with blueberries. They are similar in size and shape, although crowberries lean more toward black in color. As a matter of fact, some locals refer to them as blackberries here in Alaska. Also some people here confuse Juneberries or Serviceberries (Amelanchier alnifolia) with blueberries. This is the corrected recipe for Crowberry Pie (I left out some ingredients in the previous post): Baked 9-inch pie shell 4 cups fresh or frozen crowberries 1 cup sugar 1 tablespoon lemon juice 3 tablespoons cornstarch Dash of salt 1/4 cup water 1 tablespoon butter or margarine Whipped cream Line the pie shell with 2 cups berries. Cook ythe remaining 2 cups berries with sugar, lemon juice, cornstarch, salt and water until fairly thick. Add butter and cool. Pour this mixture over the raw berries in the pie shell. Chill for 3 or 4 hours and serve with whipped cream other topping. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:47:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Suicide Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also have often observed bees diving into the spout of the smoker. The dark hole=dark eyes of a person or animal seems plausible -maybe the bee also senses the infra red heat emission and assumes ithat it must be coming from an animal source. Alan Riach Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 04:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Ruminations Alan (who I never suspected of being a ruminant) ruminated: > I've been sitting here reading BEE-L and watching people dispute > what others report that they saw, and what they think they saw. Are you sure of what you thought you saw when watching others describe what they said they saw? :) > 4. What we think we see is largely influenced by what we have > heard and seen previously. What we have heard and seen is > often irrelevant to the current situation, misunderstood, > or simply fanciful speculation. The above appears to pre-suppose that no one is capable of making an objective observation or measurement. If so, it comes uncomfortably close to creeping relativism. If everyone is partly right, and no one is objective, this would mean that nothing is "true", nothing "false", and everything debatable, or worse yet, irresolvable. If so, this means that science itself does not even exist, and this afternoon I must go into town and find out where they hide the unemployment office. But there's a simple solution to the problem that would be 100% compatible with Alan's view. Observations are one thing, but conclusions drawn from those same observations are another. I'd submit: When presented with an model or conclusion, one should insist on evidence that it can predict (or agree with) something other than the data upon which the model/conclusion is based. (This message brought to you by the Council for a Better Day After Tomorrow) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:39:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Ruth said... > Nor have I seen any evidence that suffices to preclude the > possibility that the bees were simply passively sucked in > once they got close enough. A little extra information for Ruth (who is not in a position to make these observations for herself). A smoker that is alight, but not actively having it's bellows operated, has a hot fire in a canister that has a small air inlet near it's base and a tapered nozzle at its top. The inlet hole is small in comparison to the outlet hole, but there is a very small through draught that flows from bottom to top, driven by the rising heat from the glowing embers. There is no inrush of air at the outlet nozzle in this circumstance, and very little in the way of warm air/smoke coming out either. Even a smoker that is being actively pulsed will have very little suction occurring at the outlet nozzle as the bellows are actually seperated from the combustion chamber and fresh air gets into the bellows directly from the atmosphere. So I'm sorry Ruth, but your logic does not hang together as there is no sucking at the nozzle of a stationary smoker a bee cannot be passively sucked in to it. I prefer to base science on observation and reapeatable facts, rather than play with words and concepts. As regards you "seeing the evidence", I can only suggest that you have a look at some 'real live bees' and 'real live beekeeping practices'. You would then be in a position to see these things for yourself. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:20:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said: "The Russian medical community, I gather, has been taking advantage of this > open secret: a really dead person is a warm dead, not frozen dead. a really dead person is a warm dead, not frozen dead". There are also accounts in the press from time to time of people getting trapped below the ice on ponds and being thawed out long after they would have drowned if they had not chilled rapidly. Yoon has introduced a very interesting possibility concerning the wintering of small clumps of bees - Michael Palmer says he winters nucs on 4 standard frames with only 20 pouds of stores, but apparently 2 per box which form a divided cluster of, presumably, 8 frames and 40 pounds of stores. The total stores seem light from what the literature says (60 - 80 pounds needed in North America) , and I am trying to understand why. Does Yoon's observation imply that as the winter temperature falls, ALL the bees in small clumps (as opposed to full-size colonies, which maintain an internal temp of about 30 degrees at which the central bees remain active) may become chilled and moribund, not killed but suspending the consumption of stores, until the outside temperature warms again and the bees revive, re-start metabolism of honey, raise the internal temp right up and start to raise brood? If so, does anyone know at what temp a bee's blood freezes? And how long a chilled/torpid bee can survive before the temp has to rise? (Nothing in any book I have - we know that bumble bee queens manage to hibernate all winter, but I myself do not know how long that implies the inactive period may be able to be). If this mechanism does work, it is likely to depend on fairly constant conditions - if the temp goes up and down in winter, thawing and re-freezing in warmer winters would surely be difficult. Have any experiments been done on placing small nucs in a fridge/freezer in order to produce reliable, re-producible over-wintering of small nucs ? Can u winter 4 spare queens using a box with a star-shaped divider, so that 4 mini-nucs can form one central cluster? Just asking - my freezer is now full of blackberries. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <009501c372c5$f1e757e0$7c97bc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > Michael Palmer says he winters nucs on 4 >standard frames with only 20 pouds of stores, but apparently 2 per box which >form a divided cluster of, presumably, 8 frames and 40 pounds of stores. >The total stores seem light from what the literature says (60 - 80 pounds >needed in North America) , and I am trying to understand why. Yes, full sized colonies need 60 - 80 pounds of honey to make it through our North American winters. While this is consumed over a 6 month period, it is not consumed at a constant rate. After brood rearing ceases, the amount of feed consumed drops dramatically...to maybe 10 pounds per month. Once brood rearing starts again, consumption rate goes up again. 10 pounds a month for a full sized colony of 20 to 30 combs...covered with bees. Nucs, on the other hand only have 4 frames covered with bees. Way less mouths to feed means way less honey consumed. Once brood rearing starts...they don't raise much brood until pollen is available...the bees really begin using up their feed. Does this make sense to you? Stop thinking in terms of full sized colonies. And, don't believe everything the literature says. Think out of the book. Wintering nucs on 4 combs with 20 pounds of feed does work...well. > > >Can u winter 4 spare queens using a box with a star-shaped divider, so that >4 mini-nucs can form one central cluster? Now yer thinkin', Robin. Yes, you can. Mine don't have a star shaped divider though. Divide the brood box the narrow way (Langstroth box) with a solid divider, The top of the divider should have a frame rest on each side...matching the rests on the box. Standard frames are re-milled so they fit into the 1/2 length space created by the divider. A half sized division board feeder is constructed. This hangs in the space with the half sized frames, dividing the space in half...4 combs on each side. So, each box has two feeders, making 4 chambers with 4 full depth/half length frames. The feeders can be left centered or moved to the sidewall, creating a space for 8 frames if necessary. They will winter with only about 10 pounds of feed, as long as they are packed with bees. If you need a queen in spring, remove one...move the feeder to the side wall...remaining queen now is in an 8 frame mini-nuc. Wishing the bee book authors would stop copying each other, and get on with educating the beekeeping public. Mike > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:49:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: overwintering nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM 9/4/03 4:20:45 AM >>> Have any experiments been done on placing small nucs in a fridge/freezer in order to produce reliable, re-producible over-wintering of small nucs ? Robin Dartington ***************************************** I once had a fairly small cluster (maybe a pound) of bees I wanted to dispose of (kill) and I made the mistake of putting them in my freezer to just freeze them. What happened is that they melted the ice in the fixture above them in the freezer lid and all I got was dripping water. This is a good, very cold chest type freezer. I was afraid they were going to start thawing out my food so I took them out. Maybe I just didn't wait long enough, but how long is "long enough"? A more effective way is to put the box of bees inside a plastic bag and set it in the sun, but that makes a mess of the box. Sorry I didn't actually answer the question, but I thought this related experience might be an interesting addition to the discussion. I put some bees in the freezer, but not for the purpose of testing overwintering. They were inside a wooden box with screen on the sides, not a nuc box. I thought they would become moribund and die, but I forgot about their thermoregulation capabilities. A miscalculation based on my experience with other insects and my forgetfulness (maybe my partitioned thinking too). I did not have the patience to wait and find out how long it would take to actually kill them under these conditions. They were doing too good a job of heating my freezer. Layne Westover College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:11:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Said: > In short, so far I have seen no evidence to justify the claim that "suicide bees" actively fly into the "eye" of a smoker. Nor have I seen any evidence that suffices to preclude the possibility that the bees were simply passively sucked in once they got close enough. > Perhaps that's because you weren't there? 1. The bee in question, did, in fact, through careful observation (since I was watching the incident quite carefully), DELIBERATELY DIVE HEADFIRST into the smoker in question. It was not "sucked" in. 2. There were no terrorist laden planes in evidence, nor any "rushing winds" from the idling smoker to be observed. Any such phenomenon capable of sucking a bee in from 8 inches away would render the smoker a rather dangerous tool for beekeeping (thinking Bee-Vac?). 3. I would submit that there is ample evidence supporting my assertions that the bee was very much in control of its flight. I was there, and watched it. This is what we call observation, and is the first step in the collective process we call science. The natural question posed by this simple observation is - why would the bee dive in? This is the question tabled, and seeking further input and evaluation. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:59:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Ruminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Alan... ruminated... >> 4. What we think we see is largely influenced by what we have >> heard and seen previously. What we have heard and seen is >> often irrelevant to the current situation, misunderstood, >> or simply fanciful speculation. > > The above appears to pre-suppose that no one is capable of > making an objective observation or measurement. Well, I (allen) wrote first quote (above). Alan spoke about the econonmy, and I quoted him previously (with apologies). I can see how it is easy to confuse the two of us, but this mixup -- if you think carefully about it -- couldn't illustrate my point better, and draws into question the validity of observations, even by trained scientists, *as well as* conclusions. As I wrote and intended it, the statement quoted at the top does not in any way "pre-suppose that no one is capable of making an objective observation or measurement". It merely warns us to be careful to be aware of the strong influence of supposition and habit. Whether anyone is "capable of making an objective observation or measurement" is not addressed, and IMO, is best left to philosphers. > ...there's a simple solution to the problem that would be 100% > compatible with Alan's view. Observations are one thing, but > conclusions drawn from those same observations are another. This is true, but I don't think we can exempt observations from careful scrutiny; my original statement implies that questioning the observations themselves is not out of order. The point I was attempting to make is that dismissing observations or conclusions out-of-hand or disrespectfully, is usually not a good way to learn. It seems to me that virtually all discoveries of any import have come from careful examination of apparent anomalies or inconsistencies that, oftentimes, many, if not most of us, would impatiently dismiss as inconvenience, bad data or screw-ups. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Have any experiments been done >on placing small nucs in a fridge/freezer in order to produce >reliable, >re-producible over-wintering of small nucs ? > >Robin Dartington You bet! I live in one....called Vermont. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:26:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Ruminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick: " When we accept that what others report must have some basis > in fact and try to examine how it relates to what we know, rather > than rejecting it out of hand, we learn a lot" allen seems to be making an appeal for debate on this list to be more productive - about time. He offers five conclusions that could help us all. Some debates seem sometimes to enter interesting territory but others get cut off prematurely when what someone has said is merely pulled to pieces by someone with a different outlook, who does not then offer an alternative analysis which would carry the deate forward, just carping. It limits the usefullness and the fun of spending time on the list - as the list in a way 'belongs' to all, the question of how debate should be conducted concerns everyone. 'I think, therefore I am' can be extended to: 'I have thought, and am now the sum total of the insights I have gained'. That makes everyone a unique dot on the spectrum of mankind. But we can discern bands or zones on the spectrum. Crudely, of concern to Bee-L, there are professional/commercial beekeepers, to whom honey (for example) is a product to be made and sold - threats to the market are not tolerated. There are hobbyists, who keep bees for interest, to whom honey is a by-product whose capabilities are of interest along with all other aspects of bees. Finally, there are scientists for whom bee research is a career, and honey a mix of sugars and trace components to be investigated. What seems to go wrong so often is that a point raised within one group is answered from within another group who approach the topic from another angle and take a different view on probabilities. If there is no attempt to understand what people are MEANING rather than just what they are saying, it rapidly gets pointless. 'Beekeeping is all fun' someone might say (the context clearly indicating a hobbyist), 'impossible rubbish', might come back from a professional ' you have to get up at 4 am and drive 1,000 miles'. Both views are truthful - neither is the whole truth, but the posts bicker on. Do we need Bee-L Com / Bee-L Hob / Bee-L Sci, to keep the groups apart? I hope not - the whole point is to exchange views widely. But we cannot act as one 'comunity of the web' without willingness to take the trouble to understand the viewpoints of others, rather than just react to the words - and, as allen says, we have to allow the possibility that a view outside our own experience, very often originating within a different group, is not necessarily wrong. A change of format in responces could make a great difference : 'beekeeping is all fun' - response: ' hobby beekeepers can clearly stick to the fun side, but let me give you the different perpective of a professional who has to get up at 4 am ......". That way, both groups could actually learn something new. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:51:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Just a quick FYI for Michigan Beekeepers-Section 18 Approval has just been received for Apilife Var. The approval actually came through yesterday. I spoke the MDA the effective date was to be provided to suppliers so material could be marked and shipped. I spoke with Brushy Mtn. this afternoon and they expected the info they needed today so they could begin shipments to Michigan tomorrow. I will call tomorrow and order. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:09:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Identify Berries? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron, >The plants looked pretty similar to me, and the berries were dead ringers. >Come on what? > Sorry, you guys down in the warmer country must have much different blueberries than we have up here. First of all our blueberries are a lot larger than the crow berries, twice the diameter. Then there is the plant. Blueberries have an almost round leaf, while the crow berries grow on a plant with very pointed leaves. But that is only in Alaska, I guess = - ). Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:14:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All One observation about overwintered nucs... Small nucs, with what we beekeepers may think of as inadequate stores often survive better than some full sized colonies. And for Robin... I have often wintered four 5 frame 'baby nucs' (half width frames) in special boxes that fit the National hive footprint. They congregate in the centre quadrants of the 4 individual boxes. I have done this over full sized colonies and direct onto their own floor, I have also wintered two or three layers of such nucs one on top of the other. It makes an excellent way of storing queens for early use in the following season. I never tried sticking them in the freezer! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 04:50:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Picture of strange bee costume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enclosed link leads to web page with (politics aside) a picture of a strange bee costume at the top. http://www.primalseeds.org/action.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:44:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Grassett Subject: Re: Apilife Var In-Reply-To: <001c01c37337$0bf7f1a0$5d78ead8@cedavidson> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read about APILIFE VAR but don't know a lot about it, does anyone have any experience with this product? How do the bees react to it? Are there any effects on the bees, queen, brood? Kurt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read reports of greatly reduced (50% less) brood levels in spring following Apilife (thymol) treatments. It also seems to be hard on the bees- I seem to remember reports of bees moving away from the source, sometimes bearding on the front of the hive in warmer weather. I was considering using thymol this year, but am not so sure, given the initial reports. Any other data or observations? Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:19:50 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! I have been using my own thymol-based varroacide for 5 years now applied just after the honey removal in July. My treatment is a solution of thymol and another essential oil in ethyl alcohol.It is applied on a wad - actually two household cleaning pads- mounted inside a Dadant frame under a wire mesh screen.The frame is placed next to the brood in a single broodbox.Following comments apply: § I have not lost a colony in 5 years § the bees do indeed initially move away from this frame but return quite soon - presumably after the alcohol has evaporated. § The varroa start to fall after about 48h, they are not all dead many are disoriented,all colours fall red, white, brown. I smear the varroa tray ( in place during the treatment ) with medicinal white oil ( food grade mineral oil ) to ensure they do not survive.They fall thro the wire mesh hive floor onto the tray. § The bees propolise the mesh over the wad ( as they do if one uses formic acid as varroacide ) §My treatment does not kill varroa in the cell so it has to stay on for about 3 weeks, sometimes a 2nd dose is necessary § The air temp range should be 15°C min. 25°C max. § This treatment definitely encourages robbing, watch out for weak stocks, nuclei etc.( this has been claimed for other thymol treatments) § Some German apiarists claim that a side effect of thymol is the repression of chalk brood § I observe that the bee louse also falls, it is not killed. § I have not seen bees or queens killed by my varroacide.If the air temp. is too high they may throw out dead pupae. I use alcoholic solution both to thoroughly spread the main ingredients and because I have read that alcohol vapour alone kills varroa. I see no reason why other thymol-based varroacides should not behave similarly.There is a varroacide treatment here based upon pure thymol. Good luck! Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:55:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Small nucs, with what we beekeepers may think of as inadequate stores > often survive better than some full sized colonies. That is very true. There are many, many subtleties involved in overwintering bees and the understanding of how bees function. Location and local climate are huge factors, as are the unique history of each colony. A viable colony of bees is much more than simply some bees, brood, and comb stuck into a box. Because bees can withstand an amazing amount of abuse and mismanagement during the warmer parts of the year, average beekeepers often get the false impression that they understand bees, and that they know how to do things. Winter can change all that, because winter in cold climates, and even warmer ones, stresses bees sufficiently that effects of the blunders of the beekeeper -- which the bees were able to mitigate in good times -- finally exceed their tolerance for mismanagement, and result in colony death. Recent discussion has covered a few of the factors and mentioned some successes and expressed optimism, but many of the particpants in previous rounds seem silent. The BEE-L archives are full of carefully written discourses and energetic debates. Past discussion on this topic has pointed out that wintering nucs on top of strong hives seems to work in Vermont and some other areas, but is a prescription for dwindling or death of the lower colony in some other areas, such as the one in which I operate. Past discussion has also discussed the effects of premature plugging and the date on which the new queen began laying in a nuc. Past discussions have also pointed out that a procedure may appear to work 100% one year, but never work well again, for unknown reasons. Nucs can be wintered in cold climates with long wintrers, but there are many details to consider, and few beekeepers in cold climates are very happy with their success in the long run. Most go back to wintering strong colonies or buying package bees, given a choice. Anyone who can winter nucs consistently -- ten years in a row without a wreck -- and economically in cold climates can call himself (herself) a master (mistress) beekeeper. IMO, anyhow. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:13:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd asked: Any other data or observations? Missouri was given the section 18 for Api Life Var ( ALV) on Aug. 28. I received my ALV today. I am running a rather large test of ALV myself . I wanted to try the ALV now while I have still got a 98% control to test with after treatment and not interested in waiting to next fall to test ALV. I want to know if ALV will work for me by Turkey day! Also I am afraid those wanting to use ALV in the spring will find they will not have enough time to follow label before your honey crop in the Midwest as the shortest treatment time is 27 days and 33 days is recommended: 1st. -7 days (to 10 days) 2nd. -7 days(to 10 days) 3rd -12 days. remove ALV. Then you need to wait *150 * days (at least 5 months) before putting on honey supers to prevent honey contamination. Basically in our area ALV will need to be used in late summer / fall. The ALV instructions say to make a 8 mesh envelope for each piece of ALV put in the hive which could be up to four envelopes needed for each hive. Are the 8 mesh envelopes really needed ? Would window screen work? Any comments from across the pond? If so I guess I can make up around 500 8 mesh envelopes while watching the Chiefs beat the Chargers Sunday. >From my ALV section 18 directions: Use of ALV is most effective when less sealed brood is present Do not use ALV at temperatures above 90 F. Bob's comment: Last year we had many days over a 100F. in Sept. The directions do not say what kind of problem happens when the temp climbs to over 90F. while ALV treatment is going on.( I suspect dead brood). Use of ALV at average daily temperatures below 54 F. may result in less control of varroa. The above is what I know so far about ALV Todd. Bob Ps. Tucson Bee Lab is testing a new varroa product . I was asked to help with the testing but the researchers would not even tell me what I was testing but they did say the compound was not thymol. I respect the Tucson researchers but I do not handle or put in my hives a chemical without a certain amount of information so I declined the project. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:34:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick": Nucs can be wintered in cold climates with long winters, but there are many details to consider, and few beekeepers in cold climates are very happy with their success in the long run. Most go back to wintering strong colonies or buying package bees, given a choice". A beekeeper can hope to master the procedure for preparing a nuc for winter, but in UK at least the uncontrollable, unpredictable element is the variability in weather temperature. When, in the past, I tried to overwinter spare queens in small nucs, the problem seemed to be that sometimes they 'woke up' too early, and could not handle the spring regeneration of the small population, so dwindled to nothing. I asked earlier if anyone had keep nucs at a controlled (low) temp in a fridge/freezer - Michael Palmer responded 'yes, Vermont!'. So if u are lucky enough to have lovely long deep winters, OK. Last winter in southern UK we had just one day when snow lasted overnight - of course, it brought the country to a halt, as many people left work early and broke down on hills, so the gritters could not get thru. Bad weather for wintering small nucs I would guess - unbroken moderate cold would create less need to change/adapt within the small cluster. So I come back to asking - what about using a fridge /freezer? Can any farmer say whether there is now surplus capacity in say cold rooms used for say fruit ? What I am envisaging is a new service to beekeepers in UK - we deliver our mini-nucs to a farm cold room in say October (?) and collect in say March (?) , after reliable wintering (assuming the nuc was properly prepared by the beekeeper, so no guarantees by the farmer except of maintaining the temp). I seem to lose 10% of queens in the winter, due to ????? - poor mating? weak constitutions due to contaminated wax ? , higher endemic levels of virus due to persistent sub-lethal varooa infestation? inbreeding? I cannot mate new queens reliably until mid-May , too late for the season. So I am in the market for a way to RELIABLY over-winter some spares in mini-nucs in a variable, temperate climate. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <003401c37462$95ea8ea0$fd87bc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > What I am envisaging is a new service to beekeepers in UK - we >deliver our mini-nucs to a farm cold room in say October (?) and collect in >say March (?) , after reliable wintering (assuming the nuc was properly >prepared by the beekeeper, so no guarantees by the farmer except of >maintaining the temp). Good idea, Robin. I would love to see the results. Similar to cellar wintering of full sized colonies. I bet it would work. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Wrote: 2. A fire, no matter whether large or small always results in an in-rushing wind. Warm air and hot air rises. On a smoker not being pumped, air is drawn in the small bottom hole as warm air rises out of the top larger hole of the smoker. This is how a chimney works. There is no suction into the top hole. Bees are powerful flyers it takes alot of vacumn to pull them into a shop vac. I have seen bees intensionly fly into a smoker several times. It has always been an angry bee. I won't speculate on why they do this, only the bees know for sure. Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:53:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030906072804.00b4bd58@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:30 AM 9/6/2003 -0400, you wrote: >>after reliable wintering (assuming the nuc was properly >>prepared by the beekeeper, so no guarantees by the farmer except of >>maintaining the temp). You may have to do more than just maintain the temperature. Proper ventilation is also very important. If I remember correctly, there is someone in Canada doing something similar with full size colonies in canada. They overwinter full size colonies in a temperature controlled building. The article I read discussed problems they were having with losses concentrated in certain portions of the building due to uneven ventilation. They were using fans with large thing plastic tubes with holes along them like you might see in a greenhouse. You might be able to get details about optimum temperature and details about proper ventilation from them. I'm afraid I don't remember who it was, but someone here may, and a search of google newsgroups may turn it up (I think there was a post there). -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:44:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <000901c3740b$b5302740$02a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed What is the rational behind not using plastic foundation when producing organic honey? I can understand not using wax coated plastic as provided by the manufacturer, you would have to get the plain and coat it yourself. But disallowing plastic foundation, and allowing organic products to be packaged in plastic is a double standard. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:28:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Said: > Use of ALV at average daily temperatures below 54 F. may result in less > control of varroa. > > I checked our local weather history, and the cutoff for 54f avg daily temps is around Oct 10 in my area. Working backward 33 days (minimum treatment period, 42-56 days recommended), I'd have to treat around 9/8 for reasonably effective treatment. This would significantly cut into our goldenrod/aster flow, which continues pretty solid until Oct. It also appears (based on Swiss research results) that efficacy drops considerably in two story hives - from 97% down to as low as 74%. Premature cool weather (a real possibility in Vermont) could reduce these numbers even further. Derek mentioned that he treats in July, after harvest. That would not seem practical here in the Northeast U.S., where a major portion of the honey crop is goldenrod. Has anyone in the Northeast U.S. tried thymol treatments? If so, when did you treat? Any problems? Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:01:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was a recent thread discussing the supressive effects of broodless = periods on varroa populations, particularly in Russian strains. I have = made some observations that seem to correlate perfectly with these = statements. I had two hives (one New World Carnie, one Russian hybrid) from which I = pulled the queens in an attempt to stop a strong swarm urge, hoping for = new mated quens in both hives. No dice on the mated queens, so I put = the original queens back in about 3 weeks ago. Before I pulled the queens, I was seeing moderate mite falls in both = hives (side by side). Now I'm not seeing any mite falls at all, and = very few on drone brood. It would appear that the broodless period had = a substantial impact on total varroa population. I've also noticed that = the queens seem to be laying at an accelerated pace, seemingly making up = for lost time. I wonder if a usable, chemical free varroa management plan could be = built around this concept, without sacrificing too much production? Any thoughts? Just thinking aloud (which admittedly gets me into trouble sometimes...) Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:40:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Marc Studebaker : " I have seen bees intensionally fly into a smoker several times. It has always been an angry bee. I won't speculate on why they do this, only the bees know for sure". Bees have no sense that they will die, according to Professor Pichard. So it probably creates a false image to speak of a suicide bee. Bees - or at first one bee, as Jim has intriguingly suggested - attack perceived dangers near the hive, to drive them away. Is it not likely that, when this strange behaviour occurs, there is something in the smoker fuel that really stirs them up? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Grassett Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030906084527.01fa0130@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As A first year beekeeper I find myself needing the help of the more experienced. I purchased a nuc in the first week of June this year, 2 frames of brood and 1 frame of honey with a mated queen (Carniolan). I spent the entire month of June replacing queens (The third one finally took but I don't think it's a NYC Queen, it came from Canada and I'm not sure of the lineage). The queen has done excellent for what little time she has had. In the first week of July I bought another frame of brood to assist the colony in building up. now that cooler weather has approached the queen is not laying as rapidly as before and I'm getting concerned about the upcoming winter. I have been feeding sugar all summer( I just switched two a mix of 2 sugar to 1 water and they are taking a little more then a quart a day), I currently have 12 to 13 frames of drawn comb and 7-8 frames of foundation that they haven't touched yet. I live in SW New Hampshire (USA), we typically see the first frost around the middle to end of September, and snow around thanksgiving that lasts till march or April. We have had lousy weather for the bee's, the nectar seems really watered down this year, most other beekeeper's are experiencing low yields in this area, and with a killing frost right around the corner I'm concerned that my hive is not strong enough to winter. I only have one colony so I can't merge two together to get them through, which brings me to my questions: 1) Can I over winter a colony in just one deep super? 2) Can I do anything to push my bees to build more comb this late in the season? 3) Is my colony doomed? 4) Can I feed right up to x-mas and then begin again in February without compromising my bees? (this would allow me to leave the hive closed during the coldest part of the year) Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, I've put a lot of work into these girls and would hate to subject them to freezing to death without doing everything possible to get them to next year. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:06:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <003401c37462$95ea8ea0$fd87bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >So I come back to asking - what about using a fridge /freezer? Can any >farmer say whether there is now surplus capacity in say cold rooms used for >say fruit ? What I am envisaging is a new service to beekeepers in UK - we >deliver our mini-nucs to a farm cold room in say October (?) and collect in >say March (?) , after reliable wintering (assuming the nuc was properly >prepared by the beekeeper, so no guarantees by the farmer except of >maintaining the temp). > Interesting idea - should be easy to calculate the relative value of such a service as the cost to replace colonies (bees, potential honey lost etc) vs, the cost of the freezer/fridge + electricity incidentals or rental fees if one were not doing this oneself. Anyone have any idea how the numbers would stack up? Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:55:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Several readers have criticized my proposal that “suicide bees” are simply passively sucked into the nozzle of a lit smoker, and some of the criticism is quite pertinent. There is of course no reason to believe that “suicide bees” intend to die, which is why I enclose the term in quotes. There is no question that “suicide bees” are attracted to the lit smoker. (This in itself does not mean that they could not be sucked in once they happen to get close enough to the nozzle, or that you need a very strong vacuum to suck them in when they are flying towards the smoker in the first place.) The most pertinent argument, raised against my proposal by quite a number of readers, is however based on the claim that cool air flows into the lit smoker through a small hole near the base. Quite true. Those readers also claim that no cool air flows into the lit smoker through the much larger opening of the nozzle. Possibly also true. If it happens to be true (which could be checked by simply holding a short very thin paper-streamer near the nozzle) I shall fully retract my proposal as erroneous and unwarranted, and accept that the bees cannot be passively sucked in, but must actively fly into the nozzle! This however means that they are attracted specifically to the nozzle of a lit, even idle smoker, which raises the question why? Contrary to some suggestions there is no evidence, and no reason to believe that they try to attack black spots (like the eyes of animals, and the “eye” of a smoker), or any object that radiates heat. The bees also cannot be attracted to the odors of honey from a possibly contaminated smoker. (Such odors, if they at all attract the bees, could not be coming out of the opening of the nozzle. As far As I see it this leaves only the possibility that “suicide bees” (described as angry bees) are trying to attack the smoke itself. They may try to attack it because it is a moving object, or (and this is less likely) because they already learned to associate its sight and odors with serious disturbances caused by the beekeeper in the past. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:21:01 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I take it that the mail in which you mentioned ........."The article I read discussed problems they were having with losses concentrated in certain portions of the building due to uneven ventilation." was referring to a topic I posted several weeks back. The Bee-L archives will show interested parties several responses. I managed to get further info. as printed in "Beekeeping in Western Canada" edited by J. Gruszka (Saskatchewan Provincial apiarist, Canada) ISBN: 0-7732-6139-7 Published by Alberta Agriculture, Food and Rural Development Publishing Branch 7000 - 113 Street Edmonton, Alberta T6H 5T6 It contains a good section in chapter 10, referring to Indoor wintering. >From other sources, I understand that this section was the result of work undertaken at Winnipeg Univ. (correct if incorrect!). The information relates to the indoor wintering of full blown colonies, giving indications on temperature, humidity and air quality control etc. How the figures and mechanisms mentioned would translate when trying to winter nuc. colonies - I had no knowledge. I suggest that it would be useful info. for Robin to get hold of. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:55:09 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd wrote > There was a recent thread discussing the supressive effects of broodless periods on varroa populations, particularly in > Russian strains. I have made some observations that seem to correlate perfectly with these statements. Those who visited China for the Apimondia many years back reported that the Chinese were using this type of control method for mites. I assumed varroa. They would put the queen in a small cage made out of bamboo, like an introducing cage, and hang her in the hive for several weeks. It was claimed that this break in brood cycle was effective against the mites. It would be very labour intensive and I would imagine that the hive would make queen cells with the result that you would be looking for a virgin queen if you made the break more than 2 weeks. If the time was longer and they made a new queen, I imagine it would defeat the purpose as you would have brood for the mites to start reproducing. In Thailand, they tell me that the beekeepers take their hives up to the high country where the queen stops laying and this is used as a part of mite control. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:25:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, In a very recent message Dr. Julian Odea recommended that I read a specific publication of his, in which he proposed to explain how the honeybee “dance language” evolved. I read that publication (available on the Internet) long ago. From my point of view however trying to explain how this presumed “dance language” evolved is highly premature, because there has never been any convincing evidence for its very existence. Incidentally, ODea’s publication includes a reference to an article that claims that recruitment by dancing foragers does not exist in the Africanized honeybees. This, in spite of the fact that Africanized bees belong to the species Apis mellifera, and recruitment by dancing foragers is well known to exist in all other strains of this species, as well as all other species of this genus. Evolutionary considerations alone should lead one to adopt a very healthy measure of skepticism towards any claim that Africanized honeybees constitute a flagrant exception among all bees of the same species and genus. (If you see no dancing foragers, this may simply mean that all field bees are already busy foraging.) Evolutionary considerations alone should also lead one to adopt a very healthy measure of skepticism towards any claim that honeybees constitute a flagrant exception among all living organisms, as the only animals capable of using a language of symbols at a qualitative level of complexity not know anywhere else except among humans. On top of that there is of course also a very large body of very strong evidence against the “dance language” hypothesis. I shall not however cite any of this evidence here, because I do not intend to reopen the “dance language” controversy in this forum. I dealt with this issue during June and the beginning of July of this year on the website of the irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk. And anyone interested might want to try the archives of that website. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:48:59 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: beekeeping in the news MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Imagine my surprise when the My Yahoo page had a headline from AP Science News, "Beekeepers struggle to keep craft alive". And further surprise that it's about a fellow SC upstate beekeeper. Try this URL, or go thru yahoo: http://tinyurl.com/mhy3 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:44:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd said: Working backward 33 days (minimum treatment period, 42-56 days recommended), As we move into new methods of varroa control we see a completely different methods. Dadants new method will clear a hive of varroa in less than 21 days I was told. You treat three times at seven day intervals. 26 days minimum treatment period to 33 days maximum according to the instructions I was sent for ApiLife var. 42-56 are treatment times for Apistan/Checkmite. Sadly many beekeepers will continue to use both Apistan and Checkmite till varroa are crawling all over their bee suits before even looking at new methods of control* if* beekeeping history repeats itself. All the whinning over the price of strips will seem petty when faced with beekeeping without chemical strips. Beekeeping is about to become harder. Todd said: I'd have to treat around 9/8 for reasonably effective treatment. This would significantly cut into our goldenrod/aster flow, which continues pretty solid until Oct. Several large migratory beekeepers which had huge varroa problems last spring said the reason they did not check for varroa or treat the fall before was because they were simply to busy making and extracting their honey crop. I see the same problem developing again. How quick we forget the work of cleaning up a warehouse full of deadouts and the cost of restocking those hives with bees. Todd said: It also appears (based on Swiss research results) that efficacy drops considerably in two story hives - from 97% down to as low as 74%. The instructions say that the method described in the instructions will treat a two story hive of bees *WITH* bees covering 8 to 20 full depth Langstroth frames. Dr. Delaplane (Georgia, U.S.) only reported a 67% control with ApiLife var in the American Bee Journal but I believe the new instructions use three treatment periods instead of the two treatment periods Dr. Delaplane used (please correct me if wrong as I have not went back and looked up the Delaplane artical). Todd said: Premature cool weather (a real possibility in Vermont) could reduce these numbers even further. Looks to me you will have to cut short a Goldenrod crop to treat if you choose to try Apilife var. Todd said: Derek mentioned that he treats in July, after harvest. That would not seem practical here in the Northeast U.S., where a major portion of the honey crop is goldenrod. You sound like many of my large beekeeper friends. At least I can figure out why they lost half (if not most) of their hives over the phone to varroa when they tell me when they checked (if they checked) and the way they treated for varroa. I have never used ApiVar life before but I am using the product on quite a few hives to see how well the product works. I like Todd would like to hear from BEE-L members which have used the product or thymol both on the list or by private email if you are shy. I am actually using /testing five different methods of varroa control this fall. I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket! I also have no way of knowing if ApiLife var will provide control. I believe I will know after the treatment period is over BUT you may get completely different results in your area. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:30:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You may have to do more than just maintain the temperature. Proper > ventilation is also very important. If I remember correctly, there is > someone in Canada doing something similar with full size colonies in > canada. They overwinter full size colonies in a temperature > controlled building. Yup, and nucs are wintered inside as well, usually with decent success rates. Although outdoor wintering is the dominant method, indoor wintering is pretty commonplace, and several provincial govenments publish plans. As mentioned, the temperature, ventilation, and lack of disturbance are key, but the most fundamental factors -- once these factors are controlled, are the stock being wintered -- and the fundamental condition of the colonies. Although high rates of success are not uncommon, more or less random failures occur, probably due to viruses, pesticides, power failures, bad genetics, etc. That actually is a good thing, too, because, otherwise those successful at wintering -- and thus almost self-sufficient in terms of bee stock -- would be unsufferable in their lack of sympathy for those normal mortals who fail again and again in their wintering attempts. It is easy to blame repeated failures on the beekeepers who lack success, but many factors besides having only average intelligence, average education , sub-average financing and normal standards of dilligence can account for repeated losses. Sometimes it is something about the local honey or pollen, or profitable summer management practices that cause the wrecks. It is not always easy to learn which. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 02:19:40 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apilife Var Bob said: > Sadly many beekeepers will continue to use both Apistan and > Checkmite till varroa are crawling all over their bee suits > before even looking at new methods of control *if* beekeeping > history repeats itself. Most beekeepers have no choice but to do so, at least for now. Most states don't have "Section 18s" yet. > All the whining over the price of strips will seem petty when > faced with beekeeping without chemical strips. Beekeeping is > about to become harder. I don't see such a bleak short-term future. If Section 18s could be issued for all states, especially those states that have yet to see any "resistant" varroa, we could start alternating treatments, and at least delay, if not eliminate the onset of resistance to Apistan and/or Checkmite. Section 18s are supposed to be applied for only in the event of "an emergency". The discovery of resistant varroa is clearly sufficient "emergency", but I fear it will take some convincing to get state-level authorities to consider the inevitable development of resistant varroa an "emergency" sufficient to justify a Section 18 application. But what will it take to convince 100% of state apiarists? More worrying who is to be convinced in states that no longer even have state apiarists? The "sucrose octante ester" treatment seems to be yet another approach that simply does not "scale" well for regular use on a large number of colonies. I think it will be a great tool for use when supers are on, if it passes muster at the FDA as a "food grade treatment". I had to take over a dozen colonies out of production this summer because their mite counts got too high, and I really do not have all that much of a "serious varroa problem", one of the few advantages of beekeeping bees not far from the middle of nowhere. The Api-Life looks like something that does "scale" well, but I can't legally use it this fall. Neither can the bulk of beekeepers in the USA. That's unacceptable, given what we all know. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:51:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Ruth said... > Contrary to some suggestions there is no evidence, > and no reason to believe that they try to attack black spots > (like the eyes of animals, and the "eye" of a smoker), My reply... You may not have seen the 'evidence' written down or included in the 'papers' that you rely on, however... Bees are attracted to eyes and dark spots and this occurs so commonly that it is unremarkable. Again if you were to observe bees for yourself, you would see this behavour. You cannot draw sensible conclusions from written papers alone, you need to work with bees and understand basic day to day beekeeping in addition to the papers. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Apilife Var Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Said: Most beekeepers have no choice but to do so, at least for now. Most states don't have "Section 18s" yet. So true. Michigan, as I noted in an earlier post, did not even apply for Section 18 until July 3. With treatments needing to begin no later than early September, neither suppliers or beekeepers were given sufficient time to respond once approval was received-just this past week. Unfortunately I am having to put Apistan in this week. Suppliers can't start shipping until they application to the state Dept. of Ag. and mail the fee associated with the application. Once the fee is received by the state-to heck with the bees or the mites, it's the money that is important-suppliers are granted the right to ship into the state! "But what will it take to convince 100% of state apiarists? More worrying who is to be convinced in states that no longer even have state apiarists?" Probably a big company with lots of money to woo the state into allowing their product into the state, not a university professor with a federal grant to research alternative methods. "The Api-Life looks like something that does "scale" well, but I can't legally use it this fall. Neither can the bulk of beekeepers in the USA. That's unacceptable, given what we all know." I will be blatently honest here, if the product had been available closer (Ohio, Indiana or Illinois) I would have driven a few hours and purchased some for use this year. I know there are reasons for a lot of the government red tape, however, what I do not understand is why we can use something as deadly as Checkmite but are facing a brick wall with a Thymol , natural oil based product like Apilife. Does it just boil down to who can pay the most for approval. I will NOT use coumophos! I will quit keeping bees if it ever comes to that. Apistan is bad enough. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apilife Var Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said; > All the whining over the price of strips will seem petty when > faced with beekeeping without chemical strips. Beekeeping is > about to become harder. Jim said; I don't see such a bleak short-term future. Hobby beekeepers can always order packages and replace losses. Varroa dies in a short time after the hive dies. Most of my posts are geared for the sideline to commercial beekeeper. Although we only are most likely less than 10% of the list we are part of the list. The U.S commercial beekeeper is going to have a hard time giving up strips. Both ApiLife Var ( Brushy Mountain Bee Farm) & Avachem Sucrose Octanoate ( Dadant Bee Supplies) require testing (before & after treatment) and at least three trips for application ApiLife Var has a 150 day (five month) period you can not collect honey so use by a commercial honey producer in Florida might not happen due to the large number of flows they collect honey from. Not following label instructions will only come back to haunt you as your honey crop *could* ( if I understand the instructions correctly) smell of thymol. Avachem Sucrose Octanoate is being claimed as up to a 100% control. Problem is each bee in the hive needs to be sprayed with the product frame by frame for a total of three treatments. Both the above legal and already approved treatments will provide suppression of varroa mites and would be harder for the hobby beekeeper to use than strips but time is of little concern to the hobby beekeeper. Now consider the time needed to apply the same treatments to around a thousand hives. Todd said he would need to apply the ApiLife Var in his area before Sept. 8th. Today is Sept. 7 the.and in our area not one large beekeeper is done extracting yet (including myself). One only starting pulling supers yesterday. I check, medicate if needed as I Finnish each yard but many beekeepers do not for various reasons. THE SUPERS HAVE TO BE OFF BEFORE TREATMENTS CAN BEGIN. Labor is hard to find these days and its not unusual to find one beekeeper removing supers, extracting and medicating a thousand hives by himself. The section 18 was the quickest way to get ApiLife var in the hands of the beekeeper. ApiLife Var will be fully registered as time progresses in my opinion. I believe little proof would be needed of resistant varroa other than saying you believe you are seeing resistance for the section 18 to be issued in your state. The E.P.A. has little problem with ApiLife Var as the product has been used for years overseas but testing needs to be done in the U.S. for full registration to be granted as the U.S. does not accept the tests of foreign countries. Jim said: The Api-Life looks like something that does "scale" well, but I can't legally use it this fall. Neither can the bulk of beekeepers in the USA. That's unacceptable, given what we all know. I agree but believe the section 18's will be easy to get if applied for. I believe those wanting to use ApiLife Var will find a way. I have not tested either ApiLife Var or Sucrose Octanoate yet so can not say yet how well they work but I have talked to those which have used both with success. I believe both will be reluctantly accepted by the sideline/commercial beekeeper when he/she sees there simply is no legal alternative at present time. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Wrote: There is of course no reason to believe that "suicide bees" intend to die, which is why I enclose the term in quotes. There is no question that "suicide bees" are attracted to the lit smoker. I concur Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:40:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene, I know it is not good to walk around or circumvent laws, but there comes a time to use good judgement and common sense. Get someone to buy and then send this to you. Honest? No. Good beekeeping practice? Maybe. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:21:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Custom Mite Management Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Both the above legal and already approved treatments will provide > suppression of varroa mites and would be harder for the hobby > beekeeper to use than strips but time is of little concern to the > hobby beekeeper. Now consider the time needed to apply the same > treatments to around a thousand hives. Maybe it is time for enterprising beekeepers, or others who recognise the opportunity, to start up specialized services to deal with some of these important, but time-consuming and distracting tasks. It seems to me that mite detection and treatment presents an ideal opening for young or retired beekeepers to do bee work that requires little investment, equipment, or lifting -- on a custom basis. Farmers now hire ferilizer spreading, manure spreading, feed mixing, animal healthcare, and many other chores; why should beekeepers not also use specialists for some of their bothersome and somewhat technical tasks? Beekeepers are often Jacks-of-all-trades, but maybe this has to stop somewhere. For the service I am proposing, the barriers to entry should be low. It seems to me that some education, a pickup truck, some sticky boards, some microscopes, and some chemicals, etc. are about all that is required to get started. When we consider the fact that a specialist should be able to do the job in a more professional, timely and better documented fashion than someone who only does the job occasionally and in a hurried fashion, sandwiched in with other apiary tasks, the advantages seem to me to be obvious. Seeing as any beekeeper already has supply, travel and labour costs, and seeing as the specialist could likley get a purchasing advantage due to volume and thus come in lower in terms of cost than the beekeeper himself -- and obtain superior efficacy -- the specialist should turn out to be very competitive in net cost, and leave the beekeeper free to focus on the profitable aspects of beekeeping or to take some time off to rest. Would beekeepers employ such a service? That is the real question. Beekeepers tend to be parsimonious and also reluctant to allow others into their apiaries. Nonetheless, mite management requires timely attention and up-to-date information. A knowledge of what is happening with other bees in the district can help in deciding what measures are required and how soon. I would think that an outside specialist could do a superior job at a lower cost to the beekeeper. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Custom Mite Management Services MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent idea by Allen ! Convincing those beekeepers to turn over complete mite control might be hard unless the Mite Management service had prior mite experience. Many varables exist with using every other mite control known besides chemical strips including formic acid and FGMO. Beekeepers would have scoffed at Allens idea when all they had to do was slip strips in and later remove ( many never even removed until spring when doing other work). In the new world of varroa control careful testing (each hive can be different) and testing during treatment (to make sure the treatment is working so a different method can be used before winter if the first method fails) and testing after treatment to see if the treatment worked and at what percent so the next method can be decided on for the next treatment period.. To those large scale beekeepers saying to yourself that you will worry when your chemical strips fail I say you are coming up on the time fast now and need to formulate a plan to handle varroa. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:49:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. Contrary to Dave Cushman, my belief that (except in special situations, irrelevant to “suicide bees”) honeybees are not attracted to just any black spot (like eyes) is based on both evolutionary considerations and personal experience. From an evolutionary point of view, just consider that nature is full of dark spots of any size. If “suicide bees” (described as angry bees) were to be attracted to just any dark spot (or even just any dark spot the size of a human eye) they would end up wasting a tremendous amount of time and energy in futile activities, while being deterred from doing what they need to do. Evolution is not goal directed. Nonetheless it would most probably soon eliminate any tendency towards such wasteful behavior. As for personal experience, I do have experience in beekeeping, and like Dave and most other beekeepers, I have had bees fly “in my face”, i.e. fly for a while very close to my face right in front of it. As I noted in an earlier message, there is no reason to exclude the possibility that they are simply attracted by the motion of your eyes, because even if you freeze, you tend to keep your eyes glued to a moving bee that is flying “in your face”. I am not aware that beekeepers with light-blue eyes are spared the experience of having bees “fly in their face”. And I have never had bees actually try to fly into my eyes (as they seem to do in the case of the “eye” of a lit smoker). If Dave has ever seen angry bees flying to just any other dark spot, or any other dark spot the size of a human eye, I would like to hear about it. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:47:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee In-Reply-To: <20030907204935.62000.qmail@web14804.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Iowa we USED to have a State Apiarist, before budget cuts A, B, C and D ;-( Back before those cuts I attended a beekeeping demo offered by SA Bob Cox, who commented on the "dark spot" bee attraction phenomenon. He said he had used an old dolly hand truck to transport hives, the kind which is basically a set of tubes welded together. The plugs for the (tube) holes at the end of the handles had been lost. This left dark holes about 1 inch diameter...and he got a lot of stings on his hands. Once the holes were covered with silver duct tape, no stings. Don't think he checked to see if the tubes were full of bees with suicidal tendencies. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030906083618.00ba21f0@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim Arheit wrote: What is the rational behind not using plastic foundation when producing organic honey? Reply: Good question! Your rational seems valid. Tim further wrote: But disallowing plastic foundation, and allowing organic products to be packaged in plastic is a double standard. Reply: Yes it is! Maybe when the rational and paperwork was being developed, no natural sized plastic existed at the time.......but I don't think this would do it, namely stop it usage. Maybe it wasn't believed to be true food grade for organics due to warping and known shrinking, cracking with sunlight........but I don't think this would do it, namely stop it's usage, for it is all food grade plastic, isn't it??? Makes one wonder if the powers to be think natural means no plastic in the beehive vs real clean wax, then why are soft chemicals/acids allowed instead of straight zero tolerance for natural for biological field manipulative management. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:48:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Apilife Var "Todd" said: > I have read reports of greatly reduced (50% less) brood levels in spring > following Apilife (thymol) treatments. It also seems to be hard on the > bees- I seem to remember reports of bees moving away from the source, > sometimes bearding on the front of the hive in warmer weather. I have just updated my page on thymol and oxalic acid: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm and this may help to answer any questions that you may have. You will note that with the method detailed, I have not seen any of these adverse effects that are sometimes reported. Last autumn I fed down 133 colonies and lost 20 of these during the winter - almost all due to queen failure following the disastrous spring and early summer last year. With only two swarms that were not from my colonies, I have this year increased my total to 163. The average crop based on autumn count (i.e. the 133 that I fed for winter) was 77.5lbs (against a 23 year average of 69lbs) and I have around half a ton of heather honey (perhaps 20% of it will be cut-comb) from the 32 colonies that I moved to the moors in August - these were average colonies chosen mainly because they were easy to load, rather than for their strength. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:42:40 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: bee "language" Ruth Rosin said: > From my point of view however trying to explain how this presumed > "dance language" evolved is highly premature, because there has > never been any convincing evidence for its very existence. There is a base of research both wide and deep linking dances to specific actions of recruited bees. If you don't find these many publications to be "convincing", then you should critique the specific papers themselves on a point-by-point basis, and engage the authors in direct dialog. > ODea's publication includes a reference to an article that > claims that recruitment by dancing foragers does not exist > in the Africanized honeybees. While it is true that A. m. scutellata are generally less inclined to attempt to recruit other bees to their finds, they clearly do dance. Of the 6 known species of honey bee, all of them use dance language as their primary means of recruiting nest mates to resources. There ARE variations in use of dance, the most striking being the maximum distance described by a "round dance". A. floreata, A. dorsata and A. cerana use the round dance for distances less than 50 meters while Apis mellifera ligustica uses it for distances up to 200 meters and Apis mellifera cornica for resources up to 1000 meters distant. > Evolutionary considerations alone should also lead one to adopt a > very healthy measure of skepticism towards any claim that honeybees > constitute a flagrant exception among all living organisms, as the > only animals capable of using a language of symbols at a qualitative > level of complexity not know anywhere else except among humans. I think it would be much more accurate to say that we have been able to get a dim glimpse of how communication works with bees, and have not with other animals. Clearly, all animals communicate one way or another. The fact that we do not have easy ways to analyze their communication does not imply that their communications are "less complex" or "less symbolic" than those of bees. And, as I mentioned a few weeks ago, bees appear to be even capable of abstract reasoning, a feat far more complex than mere symbolic language. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0308D&L=bee-l&D=0&F=P&H=0&O=T&T =1&P=360&F= jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:55:06 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In response to Dr Rosin: My article actually suggests that the honeybee dance "language" does NOT exist. Dr Rosin should read it again. She will find that it agrees with her basic point: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html Julian O'Dea Canberra, Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 15:49:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If Dave has ever seen angry bees flying to just any > other dark spot, or any other dark spot the size of a human eye, I > would like to hear about it. Well, there's the answer. Bees just naturally fly or walk confidently into holes. Holes have familarity and deep meaning to bees, as do cracks, since they can often represent the entrance to a colony. That predilection for entering small round holes is a demonstrable fact. Observant beekeepers know this, and many drill 3/4 or 1" auger holes in all brood boxes, or even supers to augment the lower slit-shaped entrance. I can attest that my bees do much better on account of that little trick. (See archives). For one thing, bees orient better to holes than most cracks -- which is what bottom entrances are -- and thus auger holes can drastically reduce drifting, especially in early spring, or if the boxes vary in colour. (FWIW, It is interesting to see what happens when a box is accidentally turned around, front to back, and the hole is hidden. Bees then examine all dark spots, or pile up where the hole was, expecting to find an entrance). Anyhow, the smoker entrance is just another hole -- but perhaps one with detectable inner warmth and familiar smell, accompanied by the attractive shape. Bees enter such holes with confidence. I don't know how bees perceive the smoker hole -- their senses differ from ours -- but I suspect that shape, smell, and warmth convince the bee to 'come on in' with full confidence. Ooops! allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: Anyhow, the smoker entrance is just another hole -- but perhaps one with detectable inner warmth and familiar smell, accompanied by the attractive shape. Bees enter such holes with confidence. I don't know how bees perceive the smoker hole -- their senses differ from ours -- but I suspect that shape, smell, and warmth convince the bee to 'come on in' with full confidence. I believe all of you are reading way to much into the suicide bee incident. Many times while putting burlap into my smoker with the lid open bees fly in to their death in the flames. I have seen bees fly in the smoker hole also to their death. NEVER DO THE BEES DO SUCH THINGS UNLESS DISTURBED. In my opinion the bee was simply defending her hive . End of story! . After a lifetime of working with bees I know in my own mind upset bees go for the eyes and dark clothing. They also dislike flannel shirts. I first observed the waggle dance as a kid of thirteen and last observed the waggle dance by bees about five hours ago. Some things in beekeeping never change! No dance language for honeybees? I have to chuckle at you researchers at times. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::