From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:59 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, DEAR_SOMETHING,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C13948F92 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdY011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0309B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 214991 Lines: 4665 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:57:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Bees spend days on tree limb then come home at night MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Carniolan bee hive was started from a package in late spring. It has 2 hive bodies and three supers and a tank feeder on top. Saturday I looked out the back door and found the bees milling around in the air above the hive. Not spiraling up above the house and bee-lining away towards whatever flowers they were feeding on. I left to drop my laundry off and came back 15 minutes later. Looked in the back yard and the bee milling was much reduced: just a few bees flying about. Sixty feet up in the Silver Maple in the back yard was a a dark mass that looked like a giant brown slug stretched along a slim limb so high that I wasn't about to climb up there and confirm that it was the bees. I assumed the bees had swarmed. I built a makeshift "bait" hive next to the "old" hive. kludged together from what I had on hand: two supers and two empty nucs. I emptied one of the supers and put the frames, five each, sprayed with sugar water, into the two nucs. Of course the super frames only went down into the nucs about half way, but I didn't have any full size frames so I figured they were better then nothing. I used the empty super as a makeshift hive stand, putting a board on top of it, then putting the two nucs side by side on top of it. I put the remaining super on top of the two nucs and then put a sheet of newspaper on top of the frames followed by the two narrow tops left over from the nucs that were lower down. I realize this was probably not the ideal way to set up a bait hive, but I was trying to make do with the materials at hand. I had many chores to do that afternoon to get ready for the NYC Century bike ride so I left to take care of them. When I came home after dark the bees were back in the hive, judging from the mass of bees hanging out on the front face of the "old" hive. The next day my bike was stolen of the front sidewalk when I went back inside to turn of the lights on Sunday morning at 5 AM after I had finished loading it up with drinks, food, ATM cards, cash, tools etc. so I spent the day dealing with police & banks etc instead of going on the ride which I had been training for months. Consequently I was home to see the bees do the same drill as on Saturday: run away to their favorite tree limb and come back to the hive at night. Tomorrow is Monday and I should go to work but I may take a "mental health day" to deal with the insurance company, get a new ATM card, and start the work on getting a replacement SS card and drivers license. Any comments or suggestions about the bee-havior of the honeys? Dennis-aka Paul D. Law :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:26:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Ruth Said... > honeybees are not attracted to just any black spot (like eyes) An eye is not 'just a black spot', it has a glazed, almost spherical surface. I am not one of those that has observed bees diving into to the nozzle of a smoker. The two smokers that I use most often, have black plastic knobs which have a domed central portion to their top. the material is shiny and the curvature of the surface is similar to that of a human eyeball. I have seen individual bees fly at (and bounce off) the smokers, but I cannot say that the knob has received any special attention. However if a bee was in the process of 'mobbing' the smoker (for whatever reason perceived by the bee) and it happened to enter the spout, it would not 'bounce off' and will probabaly perish in the process. This is far different to the behaviour of bees that appear to be attracted to human eyes... The bees remain at a distance from the face and tend to 'keep station' if the human moves. There is usually only one bee exhibiting this behaviour. This is different again from the 'head butting' where many bees bump into a beekeeper's veil. While this has the appearance of 'attacking', most of the bees merely fly at, and hit the person, only a small number will actually sting. > As for personal experience, I do have experience in beekeeping, I am aware of that, but I should have included the words recent or relevent... helping a family member fifty years ago is 'experience in beekeeping', but is not relevent experience for a beekeeping researcher that is pontificating on a matter that depends on observation. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:29:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bee In-Reply-To: <001d01c375b3$04384c20$52a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > I believe all of you are reading way to much into the suicide bee incident. > > Many times while putting burlap into my smoker with the lid open bees fly in > to their death in the flames. I have seen bees fly in the smoker hole also > to their death. > > NEVER DO THE BEES DO SUCH THINGS UNLESS DISTURBED. Agree with Bob that it is tied with aggressive behavior. One factor not discussed is the known response of bees to Carbon Dioxide. Bees go where breath is to locate the animal attacking their hive. (Along with other factors. When some AHB researchers used breathing tubes, they were able to work the bees without the usual defensive behavior.) Also, the most exposed and vulnerable parts of an animal are usually dark (ear canal, mouth and eyes). A smoker hole emits carbon dioxide and is dark so makes an inviting target. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:03:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Apilife Var Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Bob sent a few comments on Apilife Var. Just a couple of followup comments. First here in the USA Apilife Var is available only under special emergency use by EPA ( pesticide regulatory body ) and that use ends December 31, 2003 therefore no beekeeper should be planning a spring treatment. It if only for use before December 31,2003. Second the 150 days is a pre harvest interval not a pre supering interval. You can put honey supers on treated colonies but no honey can be harvested from treated colonies for 150 days after treatment. All this could and hopefully will change as Apilife Var and another thymol based product are in the process of being reviewed by EPA for full approval which would that they would have a long term approved label like apistan has now here in the USA. Also the label does not require the enclosing of the material in screen. Other thymol based products have been used at very high temperatures with no visible damage to the colonies so hopefully any damage due to unseasonably high temperatures would be small. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:15:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Apilife Var In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Blane White wrote: > Other thymol based products have been used at very high temperatures > with no visible damage to the colonies so hopefully any damage due to > unseasonably high temperatures would be small. > That's OK for most of the country, I guess, but what about those of us in the opposite temperature situation? From what I've read about thymol treatments in general, I'd need average daytime temperatures to be above 12 C (about 50 F) for six weeks straight. That limits me to the last two weeks of July and all of August in this area (northern Michigan, by Lake Superior). That's my primary honey flow. Does this mean that I cannot use the thymol-based varroacides? Can the required outside temperatures be lowered by insulating the hives? For that matter, what is the internal hive temperature that is needed? If necessary, I can stick thermometers into the hives and go for a target internal temperature, but what temperature should this be? Of course, what would make me happiest would be effective methods that don't depend on the temperature at all. Aside from apistan or checkmite, what are the legal options? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:23:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi. Fischer and all. James Fischer who still believes that honeybees have a “dance language” (“DL”) claims that “DL” opponents should critique the published claims of “DL” supporters. “DL” opponents, starting with Dr. Adrian Wenner who launched the opposition to the “DL” hypothesis in 1967, have been trying to do exactly that for ages. Conducting an open dialog with “DL” supporters in scientific publications has however become almost impossible, especially since the 1973 endorsement of the “DL” by the Nobel Committee, because “DL” opponents have been too often simply denied access to print. I urge Fischer to read Wenner’s latest publication on the “DL” controversy (which is available on the Internet, but as I found out, still took an inordinately long year and a half to be accepted for publication) in J. Insect Behav. (2002). I also urge him to carefully read all the rest of the material that “DL” opponents were able to squeeze into print, often against all odds. That should suffice to make him! at least waver in his allegiance to the “DL” hypothesis. Incidentally, the freedom of the Internet has made it impossible to block “DL” opponents, but I know of no free scientific Internet forum, which is what is really needed in order to freely, openly, and properly deal with the “DL” controversy. Re Fischer’s note on the Africanized bees: It turns out that their foragers do dance, which makes it even more unlikely that they do not recruit dance-attendants that invariably follow dancing foragers. If no dance-attendants of Africanized bees found any of the sources visited by the dancing foragers, this is most probably simply due to the fact that all honeybee recruits are generally very inefficient, which is exactly what is to be expected from use of odor alone all along. I am very skeptical about Fischer’s claim of other examples of abstract thinking in honeybees, but I have been unable to access the website he provided regarding this issue. My computer advises me that there is an error there, and to please inform the webmaster of that. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Anatomy of a Controversy Have any of you read Dr. Wenner's book Anatomy of a Controversy? I've just read through it, and the DL hypothesis is so full of holes that I wonder how anyone could have believed it in the first place. I highly recommend the book, which can be ordered from Dr. Wenner inexpensively. Now I understand why bees seem to watch the dancer, even in a pitch black beehive. The dancer is showering the scent of the food source on to the scent receptive organs of the potential recruits. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:46:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" In-Reply-To: <20030908062301.41640.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wait with bated breath for JF's response to RR on DL. Before that, an observation. Since RR is new here - there is a wealth of material on DL including many posts by AW in the BeeL archives. RR's statement "the freedom of the Internet has made it impossible to block “DL” opponents," rests in the internet's ability to allow people of like mindedness to talk to each other and agree, no matter what the subject or the facts behind them. But a true open discussion forum, as this one is, usually does not keep those who are on shaky ground, as has been shown by the spinoffs from this list when some got upset defending their hypothesis. If " “DL” opponents have been too often simply denied access to print", might that be because the validity of the argument is in question and not any conspiracy to silence the opposition? (I have found that the internet is also a hotbed for conspiracy buffs. Several websites are dedicated to nothing but informing the public of the truth behind many of the "conspiracies" and urban legends that freely circulate as fact.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:27:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" Ruth Rosin said: > James Fischer who still believes that honeybees have a > "dance language... This sounds somewhat like "still believes in the Easter Bunny". "Faith" and "belief" are simply not valid components of science. Our currency is evidence. I am convinced by the evidence at hand. So is most of the rest of the scientific community. If some individuals are not convinced, that is their business, but it is very unwise to dismiss someone else with phrases like "still believes". > It turns out that their [AHB] foragers do dance, which makes it even more > unlikely that they do not recruit dance-attendants that invariably follow > dancing foragers. Yes. a) AHB DO dance. b) AHB DO recruit foragers. c) They simply do so less often than other types of Apis. d) I agree that it is unlikely that a dance would not recruit "dance-attendants". (Some less vigorous dances don't recruit any bees, but this is a well understood part of the process.) > If no dance-attendants of Africanized bees found any of the sources visited by > the dancing foragers, This is NOT what is understood to be the case. The dances simply happen less frequently. > this is most probably simply due to the fact that all honeybee > recruits are generally very inefficient, which is exactly what is to > be expected from use of odor alone all along. Here's the basic problem. Again. (Long-term Bee-L subscribers can skip this, as you have all read this sort of thing before.) I have said this multiple times. If anyone wants to claim that "odor" is a superior explanation for the actions of bees, they should be able to do so without EVER MENTIONING "dance". In other words, they should be able to simply explain how "odor" works, how it might describe a place where forage is good, and how bees navigate to the food source using it. Once "odor" can stand on its own as a mechanism, it can be discussed, tested, and documented. There is no need to critique "dance", nor does any critique of "dance" imply that "odor" is the only possible alternative. No critique of "dance", no matter how impressive it may seem to the layperson, can be used to support "odor" any more than it could be used to support "telepathy between bees" as a communications method. In regard to "flower odor", it should be obvious to any beekeeper than bees fly both with and into the breeze, so there is a serious problem with the claim that bees follow an "odor plume" from hive to target. In regard to the highly entertaining "locality odor" speculation, it has yet to be shown how a unique "locality odor" might exist for different areas with similar or identical mixes of flowering plants. > I am very skeptical about Fischer's claim of other examples of abstract > thinking in honeybees, Not my claim. Girrfa, Zhang, Jenett, Menzel, and Srinivasan did the work, and deserve the credit. I was also amazed. > but I have been unable to access the website he provided regarding this > issue. Sorry, the URLs were "wrapped around" into two lines by the listserver. Here are the links in a shorter, more bulletproof form http://shorterlink.com/?LR0PEG http://shorterlink.com/?W2U29Y The full text version requires a subscription, but the abstract is free. For public library users, the article is in the April 19th, 2001 issue of "Nature" and the citation is: "The concepts of 'sameness' and 'difference' in an insect" M. Giurfa, et al Nature 410, 930 - 933 (2001) > Conducting an open dialog with "DL" supporters in scientific > publications has however become almost impossible, especially > since the 1973 endorsement of the "DL" by the Nobel Committee, > because "DL" opponents have been too often simply denied access > to print. Exactly how and when were you, or anyone else "denied access to print"? Specifically which journal or journals were involved? If I could get papers published, anyone can. Yes, peer review can be harsh. Yes, it sometimes takes multiple passes. But if any of the journals were to do what has been claimed, that would be a VERY big story, one that would shake the scientific community. So, let's either have some specifics, or a retraction. The Nobel Committee does not "endorse" work. They hand out awards. Once they do, multiple parties will often waste their entire careers flailing away at the research of the winner, in the misguided belief that overturning findings that were grounds for a Nobel Prize will earn them a Nobel Prize of their own, or at least a measure of fame, respectability, whatever. Nothing could be further from the truth. > Wenner's latest publication on the DL controversy... still took > an inordinately long year and a half to be accepted for publication > in J. Insect Behav. (2002). Funny how he was NOT denied "access to print", eh? A year and a half is not really a "long time" for papers that need work. Clearly, the length of time, combined with the undeniable fact of publication, indicates nothing more than a paper that need significant revisions before it met the minimum standards of the journal. This kind of thing happens all the time. The stark contrast between a wide-ranging and highly organized conspiracy against "the truth", and a more mundane case of a paper that needed extensive revisions should be clear, even to a person like me, who has a habit of thinking he sees gunmen behind _every_ grassy knoll. Also funny how the only people to call it a "controversy" are those who want to somehow "disprove" dance. "Controversy" is like the tango. It takes two. > Incidentally, the freedom of the Internet has made it impossible to > block "DL" opponents, but I know of no free scientific Internet forum, > which is what is really needed in order to freely, openly, and properly > deal with the "DL" controversy. I agree that Bee-L, composed mostly of mere beekeepers, is not the correct forum for discussion of such claimed "controversy". Perhaps you might wander over to yahoo groups ( http://groups.yahoo.com ) and create one? It is free, and it is not difficult to do. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:49:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recalled seing a study by Adony Melathopoulos and John Gates, so I wrote Adony. Here is what he says. The charts he sent me with more detailed info are at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/adony/ --- begin adony's reply to my query -- It was published in the June issue of ABJ this year. Here is the abstract of the paper: API LIFE VAR and Apiguard were evaluated for their ability to control Varroa mites and for safety to bees following fall treatment of full-sized colonies in two different apiaries in British Columbia, Canada. Colonies treated with API LIFE VAR or Apiguard provided comparable Varroa control to that observed among colonies treated with fluvalinate (Apistan ), a highly-effective Varroa acaricide. API LIFE VAR-treated colonies during the first week of treatment at one apiary, however, had 70% fewer Varroa drop on adhesive boards compared with Apistan-treated colonies. Although Apiguard-treated colonies had similar levels of Varroa drop to those treated with Apistan, they had approximately 40% fewer adult bees and sealed brood in one apiary the spring following treatment. The release rate of all volatile compounds was considerably higher for Apiguard than API LIFE VAR over the first 3 d of treatment, however rates were similar throughout the remaining treatment period, suggesting the release rate of thymol only differs initially between the products. Our results indicate that fall treatments with either API LIFE VAR or Apiguard provide good control of low-level Varroa infestations with limited negative effects on early spring bee population. This fall I am running a slow-release formic acid vs Mite Wipe vs liquid oxalic acid trial. Great weather for formic acid and the 21 day treatment ends this week (I started as soon as the honey supers came off). Good mite infestation for an experiment as well. I will apply the oxalic just before wrapping. Knock what ever remains among the treatments down in May. Adony ..................................................... Adony Melathopoulos, M.P.M. Apiculture Biotechnician / Biotechnicien en Apiculture Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada / Agriculture et Agroalimentaire Canada Telephone / Téléphone: 780-354-5130 Facsimile / Télécopieur: 780-354-8171 P.O. Box 29 / C.P. 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta / Beaverlodge (Alberta) T0H 0C0 Canada melathopoulosa@agr.gc.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:29:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: 2003 Tennessee Beekeeper's Convention (USA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 2003 Tennessee Beekeeper's Association Convention will be held October 24 and 25 at the Williamson County Ag Expo Center in Franklin, TN. Featured speakers include Steve Taber of Honey Bee Genetics and Kentucky State University's Tom Webster. Tennessee's own John Skinner and Pat Parkman will be on hand along with beekeepers from around the region. We'll publish a schedule as it becomes finalized. Additional information, including a registration form you can print out can be found at http://www.tnbeekeepers.org/2003.htm. Preferred lodging for TBA attendees is available at the Baymont Inn in Franklin at 4207 Franklin Commons Court. Call 615-791-7700 for reservations. Ask for the TBA rate of $49.99 ($57.62 with tax). Franklin is just south of Nashville on I-65. Nearby attractions include the Carnton Plantation, the Nashville Zoo, and the Agricultural Museum at Ellington Ag Center. For family not attending the convention, there are lots of shopping opportunities and Pumpkinfest will be held Saturday, October 25th, on Main Street in Franklin from Second Avenue to Fifth Avenue. The street will be closed and filled with hayrides, children's activities, an Arts & Crafts Bazaar, food including a chili cook off, entertainment and the Octoberfest Beer Garden. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:45:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ruminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/09/03 05:15:43 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << If there is no attempt to understand what people are MEANING rather than just what they are saying, it rapidly gets pointless. ' >> What other way do we have in this medium to explain what we mean except through our words? As this is a list with contributors from all over the beekeeping world and is conducted usually in forms of the English language it is up the contributors clearly to explain what they mean and to avoid accidental ambiguity. Readers will need to make allowances for those whose skills in the use of English are not equal to those of, for example, Jim Fischer. Equally, writers will need to keep their communications clear and simple, especially for those whose first language may not be English. One of the prime causes of ambiguity is the use of jargon, and it is difficult to know here where to draw the line. As a List for existing beekeepers rather than beginners everybody can be presumed to know what a nucleus is in beekeeping terms, but I have little idea of what a Medium or an Illinois might be although I assume they are particular sizes of box that fit the Langstroth system. On the Irish list we recently discovered that a particular contributor's mails were longer than most readers' attention span and this was a focus of dissent and acrimony. So, in summary, I suggest we try to write with clarity, brevity and, above all, tolerance. Humour helps too sometimes. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:33:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Suicide Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/09/03 05:03:05 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Is it not likely that, when this strange behaviour occurs, there is something in the smoker fuel that really stirs them up? >> I usually use old sacking in my smoker (when I am not using liquid smoke) and sometimes to make the smell more pleasant I wrap herbs in it. Rosemary works well, pineapple mayweed is a favourite, and both are well accepted by the bees, but on one occasion I used sage (salvia officionalis) and the bees poured out of the hive to attack the smoker. However I do not discount suggestions that bees may also choose dark spots (patches on the bee suit) or hot spots (wrists, ears) as I have noticed these can also be singled out for attention and stinging. Perhaps the most likely explanation is that there are many stimuli but only one response that we notice. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Suicide bees In-Reply-To: <003501c37589$f20159d0$31b85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > Allen Dick wrote (in small part): >Anyhow, the smoker entrance is just another hole -- but perhaps one with >detectable inner warmth and familiar smell, accompanied by the >attractive shape. Bees enter such holes with confidence. I don't know >how bees perceive the smoker hole -- their senses differ from ours -- >but I suspect that shape, smell, and warmth convince the bee to 'come on >in' with full confidence. I think far too much attention has been paid to this subject. Allen's assessment is the best I have read so far. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:53:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Mid US Hotline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No BEE-L thread ever dies. I forgot to give the number. 1-763-658-4193. Last update was September 7th (2003). Prices $1.50 to 1.55 not much reported. Seems to be strengthening. US crops are short this year, but not as short as last year... If you have sold some honey recently, received an offer from a buyer, or are just plain curious, call that number. Listen, then tell them what you know. Please. It helps us all, beekeepers and packers alike, to have honest market information available. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:18:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ever been to the world's largest indoor mall? Ever think you'd ever wanna bee there? In November? Come to the ALBERTA BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION: Annual General Meeting and Convention. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, November 3, 4 and 5, 2003. Fantasyland Hotel, West Edmonton Mall. Go to http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ and check it out. Sure it's cold outside, but this place is HUGE, and there is a first class hotel, a huge wave pool , an indoor amusement park with the infamous Mindbender killer (you though AHB was BAD) roller coaster, night clubs, restaurants, and much, much more. And, oh, yes, a fantastic bee convention. The West Edmonton Mall is a short, scenic shuttle ride from the Edmonton International Airport, easily accessible from almost any North American city. Are you a convention addict or a never-been? No matter, you will be very welcome. Don't miss it! If in doubt, write me personally. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:36:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One of the problems with the debate about bee "language" is that the simple fact of the honeybees' dancing seems to dazzle people. The whole thing makes for such a charming story. After reading Adrian Wenner's "Anatomy of a Controversy" book, I asked myself - "Well, if bees don't dance to convey location information to other bees, why do they dance?" I think Professor Wenner and Dr Rosin are probably correct - bees don't dance to convey location information. Odour is the key. But their explanations for why the bees nevertheless dance did not satisfy me. That is why I published this: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html On the matter of the value of the Internet in opening up this debate, and the difficulties in getting anti-language papers published, I could add that I wrote a follow-up to the above paper. I was unable to get this published by the same journal. The reasons given did not seem entirely satisfactory to me. I suspect that there is a level of censorship of anti-dance language thinking. The dance "language" has become a "sacred cow" (excuse the mixed metaphors) to which people are emotionally attached. Julian O'Dea Canberra, Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM wrote: "Come to the ALBERTA BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION: Annual General Meeting and Convention. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, November 3, 4 and 5, 2003. Fantasyland Hotel, West Edmonton Mall. Go to http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ and check it out." Well geez, I went there but the program wasn't online! Wazzup with that? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:14:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] suicide bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. I shall briefly respond to several additional posts re “suicide bees”. I already raised the possibility that “suicide bees” might be attracted to the nozzle of a lit, even idle smoker, because of the physical property of the smoke (motion), or the chemical properties of the burning fuel. (A combination if both is of course also possible.) Some readers suggested earlier that such bees fly into the nozzle because of the visual properties of the opening, as a dark spot that presumably attracts them, or as an object resembling a human eye, which presumably attracts them. I am not inclined to accept this possibility, among others for reasons based on my own experience, which (contrary Dave Cushman) is quite relevant to this issue specific issue. (Incidentally, I never suggested that human eyes are visually identical with just any dark spot of similar size.) Nor am I inclined to accept the idea that heat is a factor involved in attracting “suicide bees”. (I explained why in an earlier message.) A recent post by Truesdell (sorry I misspelled his name ! in an earlier message) seems to support the involvement of chemical factors. In fact, he believes that it is specifically the carbon dioxide emitted by the lit smoker that attracts “suicide bees”, though only following a disturbance. (His evidence shows this to be quite possible). His evidence also suffices to exclude the idea that those bees are specifically attracted to dark spots that might resemble a human eye. (They were attracted even to the much large opening of an uncapped lit smoker.) I find the issue of what causes “suicide bees” to enter a lit smoker through the opening of the nozzle pretty interesting, and the problem of what causes them to respond to the stimuli to which they respond even more interesting (if we only knew with certainty what these stimuli are). Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:33:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Allen posted a flyer for the ALBERTA BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION Annual General Meeting and Convention. > Are you a convention addict or a never-been? I do not know if I would be described as a convention addict, (my addiction to Gormanston is well known), But I am a 'never-been' as far as ABA is concerned. I would like to attend, but I can't find an itinery or conference fees on... http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ can anyone provide more details? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:49:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julian O'Dea routed us to his article at: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html which includes: "Evidently, therefore, bees and other insects may perform information-laden movements that are not communicative". I hesitate to enter this debate , but Julian's article makes extraordinary reading. Julian seems to say, if I understand aright, that the dance of honeybees DOES contain information on where the bee found food - but that other bees do not read this, but just blunder out to search 5 square miles for a particular ordor. This seems tantamount to saying that bees can 'write' but not 'read', when a glance at the map would save so much time. To my mind, the probability must be that writing and reading are two sides of the same coin. So, as I say, an extraordinary conclusion. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:40:00 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim Arheit wrote: >What is the rational behind not using plastic foundation when producing >organic honey? I can understand not using wax coated plastic as provided >by the manufacturer, you would have to get the plain and coat it >yourself. But disallowing plastic foundation, and allowing organic >products to be packaged in plastic is a double standard. Dee Lusby has made valid comments on these points. However under the Australian organic certification standards (National Association of Sustainable Agriculture, Australia), plastic foundation is acceptable. I believe this came about after representations from an Australian beekeeper undergoing the certification process. In discussions with N.A.S.A.A. representatives we have been informed that if there are inconsistencies in the standard, we are free to raise these for discussion at any time and if supporting evidence can be provided, the requirements will be reconsidered. On the other hand, glass containers are recommended for packaging whilst polythene or plastic containers are restricted. We are "certified organic" producers, for the past 12 months, having produced our honey in precisely the same way for the preceding 9 years. I have watched the great organic debate rage and die several times in Bee-L without feeling that any contribution I could make would change minds on either side. We also market creamed honey, which does not come within the certified organic guidelines as the nectar source is farm crops. Parallel processing requires good record keeping which we do anyway for the satisfaction of analysing figures for best planning. I feel Dee Lusby sums up the argument cogently by pointing out that it is essentially a marketing tool. We pack and market all our own honey as "Kangaroo Island" varietal types and are now expanding our operation because we are selling all we produce. Sales have increased over the last 12 months but whether this is because customers now recognise the "Kangaroo Island" origin or the "certified organic" distinction is debatable. Of far greater importance in my mind is the shortage of honey created by the long lasting drought affecting the eastern states more than our region, so that supplies of honey, particularly of the non-supermarket blends, have increased in price or disappeared, making ours attractive both in style and competitive in price. The certified organic advantage may win us a place on the shelves but only continued demand from consumers will keep us there. We are however receiving far more enquiries for export with the certified organic accreditation. The certified organic option is certainly not open to all beekeepers, but then neither is access to desired floral sources for varietal honeys available to all. Any members who wish to know more about our experience with the accreditation process are welcome to email me privately. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Anatomy of a Controversy Tim Vaughan said: > Now I understand why bees seem to watch the dancer, even > in a pitch black beehive. The dancer is showering the scent > of the food source on to the scent receptive organs of the > potential recruits. There is no question that this could be a component of the recruitment process, but is it mission-critical? Is it even required? There are very easy ways to find out. (I think I may have mentioned this before.) I offer this as a direct challenge to all and sundry, as there is nothing preventing any interested beekeeper from performing these experiments at a cost of roughly a buck ninety-eight: 1) Load up a few observation hives. 2) Chill down one set of bees, remove antennas with a very tiny pair of wire cutters, and attach those little numbered tags to each bee. (Disgusting and cruel, but so is letting a colony die as a "control" in a varroa study. I have a hard time with letting bees die or mutilating any of God's creatures, which is why I would make a lousy entomologist or biologist.) 3) Allow the colonies to forage. Set up a few feeding dishes, track visitors, video-tape dances, and compare. 4) If odor is mission-critical to recruitment, the colony without antennae should clearly show "no recruitment", or "much less recruitment" than colonies with antennae. 5) The reaction of bees to dancing should be "different" between the colonies "with" and "without" antennae, so one might want to video-tape the dances on normal colonies as a "control". Here's another good test that might be done by the same experimenter as a contrasting test: 1) Take a cheap vibration source, such as a back massager like this one http://www.conair.com/Products/detail.jsp?productID=108 and set one of the observation hives on it. 2) Turn on the massager. You are now "jamming" the vibration made by the dancing foragers with a constant and much larger-amplitude vibration. Leave it on for a few days. Turn it off for a few days. Compare and contrast what happens. 3) If vibration is a mission-critical part of the communication mechanism (generally agreed to be an essential component of "dance"), this should foul up the ability of dancers to recruit as many additional foragers as would be recruited without the "jamming". 4) Record observations and data as above. 5) Anyone needing help with details can contact me. I'd be happy to not only help with the design of the experiment and the number-crunching, but to also arm-twist various big-name researchers into reviewing and tweaking the design to insure that it is 100% bulletproof. Gosh, all the talk, all the argument, and there has yet to be a single "put up or shut up" experiment like these to settle the issue once and for all. Why? Well, I guess that the "dance" faction feels that the issue is settled, and does not need to be "proven" any more than it is, and the "non-dance" faction is simply unwilling to approach the issue head-on in a direct manner. And don't try and tell me that I am the first one to think up a simple and low-budget way to test this stuff. That won't fly. I'm a mere beekeeper. What if one could prove that odor IS mission-critical, and vibration is NOT mission-critical? Well, you'd certainly get your name in genuine print, and you'd likely also get a few free trips to address beekeeper meetings about your findings. You'd be FAMOUS!! ...yet another good reason why I'm not doing this myself. But until someone has done an actual experiment, I'm not going to respect ANY armchair analysis on this topic. Including mine. :) jim (I just described the "odor versus dance" question as an "In-Flight Fellini Movie" to an employee who just asked why I was typing rather than sitting in on a conference call.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:12:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: bee "language" Robin wrote: "This seems tantamount to saying that bees can 'write' but not 'read', when a glance at the map would save so much time." As I understand Julian's article, he said that the dance is a vestigal trait which lost it's origial use which was only useful to the dancer but has evolved a secondary use which is useful to recruits. Idle speculation, but interesting. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: DL Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The controversy behind giving other creatures on this planet the "ability" to learn or communicate surfaces here & there but nowhere as fiercely as with the Honey Bee Dance Language. My question would be this. How does the dance of newly swarmed forager bees looking for a new residence affect the "decision " of the swarm to select a one location over another as presented by Tom Seeley? Would odor be the main contributing factor in the recruitment of workers to the "best" location? Oh that site dose not smell very good lets go to the other one! Often I think that the argument should be centered over what is language? The dance (and all its components) clearly do convey some information. Is this language? Other insects used in laboratory trials "seem to learn" . That is experienced insects perform better during some assays. One sees this or hears it over time. Science is still reticent to allow other creatures to have any human abilities--anthropocentrism, ethnocentrism, or perhaps speciocentrism? As a final thought--our computer chips have gone through an incredible change over the last couple of decades--they are smaller and are more capable. Has nature evolved such as to be able to do more in the fewer nerve ganglia of within the bee. Millions of years of evolution could have contributed to this? Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 02:11:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please, excuse the inavoidable length of this message! To James Fischer, and all, Hi. I respond here as briefly as I can to comments in two pro DL messages (of Sept. 7 & 9) from Fischer, not necessarily in the order in which his comments were made. To Fischer: I already alerted you to some notes (in my earlier post, of Sept. 8) that are relevant to several of your comments. I do not want to go into further details regarding the gagging of DL, beyond noting that I fully trust that someone as competent to represent the opposition to the DL hypothesis as Dr. Wenner, who launched this opposition some 35 years ago, does not need a year and a half to revise anything he submits for publication on this issue. I.e., I strongly suspect that the delay came from the opposite side. Other than that: Websites associated with Bee-L are devoted first and foremost to beekeeping, and cannot qualify as sites devoted to the behavioral science. I referred to the Nobel Committee as having “endorsed the DL” only for the sake of brevity; based on the assumption that everyone knows exactly to what I refer. By the same token, I use the term DL for the sake of brevity; again assuming that everyone knows exactly to what I refer. I would not sacrifice scientific rigor to brevity in a scientific forum. (For instance, those who really know are of course well aware that v. Frisch already viewed foragers’ dances as a “dance language” even when he justifiably concluded, in 1923, that honeybee recruits use odor alone and no information about the location of any food, and when he did not even know of any distance & direction information contained in the dances.) The motives you attribute to DL opponents exist only in your own mind, and are untenable in view of the “rewards” DL opponents have gleaned, i.e. being treated by the scientific community for very many years as outcasts. I became very actively involved in supporting DL opponents, because I concluded that they were right, and because the opposition to the DL hypothesis provides support for Schneirla’s School in Behavior vs. European Ethology (which not by accident shared a Nobel Prize together with the DL). I cannot even begin to go into this issue in the present, non-scientific forum, beyond stating that I support Schneirla’s School, and consider the Nobel Winning European Ethology a misguided and misleading general approach to the whole field of behavioral science (including the study of human behavior). My motives would naturally be unimaginable to a staunch DL supporter like you. I have by now seen the letter (though not the full article) you mentioned, by a team that inc! ludes Menzel and Sriniuvasan, among others. Both these scientists are staunch DL supporters, which means that they are disciples of European Ethology, and I cannot quite seriously consider conclusions about behavior that are drawn by disciples of that school. Your claim that science is based on evidence vs. beliefs is self-contradictory. Evidence is none other than the interpretations that scientists provide for observational and experimental data that cannot speak for themselves. The interpretations are however inevitably based on the paradigms specific scientists adopt, and those paradigms are a matter of belief. Even ruling paradigms in science are never accepted more than tentatively, because they may be toppled one day. Again, I cannot go any further into this complex issue in a non-scientific forum. When I stated that you are “still a DL supporter”, I meant, in the face of a very large body of very strong evidence against the DL hypothesis. Such evidence does support the ”odor alone” hypothesis, because there are no other alternatives. I should however have added that at least some of that evidence provides direct support for “odor alone”. The “odor alone” hypothesis is superior because of its simplicity from an evolutionary point of view, in terms of easily fitting within all we know about how insects in general and flying insects in particular find food in the field. It is also superior from the point of view of Schneirla’s School, in terms of the psychic level required. This is so however only provided you seriously consider what I assume regarding the behavior of recruits in the field. (I believe that when recruits sense no attractive odors they fly at random, which means that they also change directions at random, but they do not resist the wind. Unless they sense attractive odors as soon as they exit the hive, this results in a passive downwind transport, which explains how they can even find downwind sources. When they sense attractive odors they respond, through directional olfactory sense organs, by advancing towards the direction from which they sense the maximal odor-stimuli. Again, I cannot even begin to go into more details on this issue in a non-scientific forum. Incidentally, contrary to your belief, DL opponents never claimed that recruits follow an odor-plume all the way from the hive to the source, except when odors from the source are carried all the way to the hive, or when there is a continually replenished odor-trail from a thick stream of foragers already flying to the source and back. Also, if bees are often observed flying downwind, they are most probably simply experienced foragers, flying to their familiar foraging area, irrespective of wind-direction at that particular time.) The “odor alone” hypothesis requires the dance, because, contrary to v. Frisch’s belief, the odors a successful forager carries do not serve as a word in a human language, to inform recruits of the type of odors they should seek in the field. Instead, recruits must become conditioned to these odors through a gradual, progressive conditioning process, and the “reward” for that conditioning is the nutritious food the dancing forager provides to dance-attendants, or the mere sensing of attractive odors at a very close range, when the dancer provides no nutritious food. Incidentally, I am truly relieved to find that the reference ODea cited to the effect that recruitment by dancing foragers does not exist in Africanized honeybees appears to be in error. Of course, I never doubted that it had to be in error. The low dancing frequency observed in AHB need not be a rule, because dancing frequency is affected by very many different factors. Sorry, but much as I tried I could not even begin to respond to your posts in a shorter message. I hope to avoid further dealings with the DL in the present forum, (but I still owe ODea a more detailed response). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:39:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: bee "language" Personally I agree with Julian's insightful remarks: "One of the problems with the debate about bee "language" is that the simple fact of the honeybees' dancing seems to dazzle people. The whole thing makes for such a charming story." How many remember an American Bee Journal article in the not too distant past where some believed they were seeing hieroglyphics in the cell bottoms of comb?! I'm with Dr. Wenner. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:48:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would like to attend, but I can't find an itinery or conference fees on... http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ can anyone provide more details?< and > Well geez, I went there but the program wasn't online! Wazzup with that? < Good point. I don't know. Personally, I'll prolly go no matter what, so I didn't look for details. The program should be finalised by now, so I expect that they can post it to the site any time now. I'll ask, and post here when they are available on the site. As for the fees, they are minimal, usually about $60 Canadian (~$45 US) for the three days. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:23:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Go to http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ and check it out." > > Well geez, I went there but the program wasn't online! Wazzup with > that? Dude! It never occurred to me that anyone would actually go to the meetings? I thought that everyone would be in the wave pool, on the sun deck, riding the submarines or roller coaster, watching the dolphins eating in the restaurants, rocking in the night clubs... http://www.westedmontonmall.com/home/homepage.asp http://www.reds.ab.ca/ http://www.infoedmonton.com/Articles/GeneralInterest/8-220.html http://www.westedmall.com/shopping/shopping.html http://www.webtravel.com/canada/yegmall.html allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:12:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edited to meet the guidelines --- To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] bee "language" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:11:51 -0300 I am a beekeeper from Paraguay, and I have observed an attractive behavior of my bees africanizadas. I have distributed several drawers of bees in my patio, with the purpose of grabbing hives, all them separate among if about 10 meters. If I spill some honey in one of the drawers to cause pillage, in some minutes will see the bees looking for this honey, but not alone in the drawer that I have spilled the honey, but in all them. My conclusion is that the bees that have found the honey, can inform their partners, not alone the address and/or scent, but also that the honey is in an abandoned drawer. Milton Xiscatti :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:54:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Rosin wrote (three times): > Again, I cannot even begin to go into more details on this issue in a non-scientific forum. > Ruth, You did go into considerable detail - why hold back now? There are some rather bright people on the bee-L, I see no reason to suspect that at least some of the group cannot follow what you may have to say. Give it a try, someone here might surprise you. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:52:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Sirs: I knowed plum well that my Italian girls talk in vulgar Latin I plum heared it meself, I swear, Honest Indgeon. Them’s the very word I heared, sir. When they brung the pollen, for instance, my Carnioloan girls gibber- jabber, yak-yak, in Yugoslavian dialect. What in the nation, I says to meself, is going on here? Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:37:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: bee "language" In-Reply-To: <20030909091101.93913.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Ruth Rosin a écrit : > I would not sacrifice scientific rigor to > brevity in a scientific forum. > I cannot even begin to go into this issue in > the present, non-scientific forum, ... > Again, I cannot go any > further into this complex issue in a non-scientific > forum... > Again, I cannot even > begin to go into more details on this issue in a > non-scientific forum. Please considere that many people in this forum have a scientific background, sometimes a high scientific background. I am not an ethomologist, but I am quite sure I am able to understand your scientific arguments, even in a foreigner language (from my point of view, of course). Please, go as far as needed in your argumentation... otherwise it will just be another wasted effort (or beating a dead horse, expression I just learned). > When I stated that you are “still a DL supporter”, I > meant, in the face of a very large body of very > strong evidence against the DL hypothesis. Such > evidence does support the ”odor alone” hypothesis, > because there are no other alternatives. Could you give precise references or facts ? I am not pro or against any hypothesis. But I would like to make my own idea by reading studies by myself. Respectueusement, Hervé Laval, Qc ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:43:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Language Comments: cc: emslade@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/09/03 05:04:07 GMT Daylight Time, Jim Fischer writes: << a) AHB DO dance. b) AHB DO recruit foragers. c) They simply do so less often than other types of Apis. d) I agree that it is unlikely that a dance would not recruit "dance-attendants". (Some less vigorous dances don't recruit any bees, but this is a well understood part of the process.) To repeat what I said when this subject was discussed at length on the Irish List some months ago, I spent some hours at a show in charge of an observation hive from which bees were foraging. I was able to observe how the angle of the waggle dance moved anti-clockwise over time. As I carry neither a protractor nor a wristwatch I was not able to carry out accurate observations but it seemed to me that the anti-clockwise motion was about half the rate at which the hour hand of a hypothetical conventionally regulated clock would have moved in the opposite direction. I noticed that most of the dancing (for want of a less loaded word) bees attracted attention from other bees. However a smaller (but significant) proportion of the dancing bees were apparently ignored by their sisters. It did not appear to me at the time that these dances were any less vigorous. After I reported my observations one or two other beekeepers (including Norman Carreck, a genuine scientist) took the trouble to look at their observation hives for the same behavior (ignored dancers) and found it. However, nobody said it was a well understood part of the process. Perhaps, Jim, you could elucidate to help our better understanding and enlightenment. "Exactly how and when were you, or anyone else "denied access to print"? Specifically which journal or journals were involved? If I could get papers published, anyone can. Yes, peer review can be harsh. Yes, it sometimes takes multiple passes. " By coincidence I was talking earlier this evening to my daughter who assists with editing a peer reviewed scientific magazine and we discussed the peer reviewing process. In a small world where most of the participants know each other one way or another all the corrupt influences you would expect, from mutual back scratching downwards, are common. It is only the commercial influence of advertising that keeps the corruption in check as if the magazine loses its reputation it loses its advertising revenue. So taking a very cynical view it could be assumed that the Dance Language opponents have few friends or that their views are so extreme that they would scare off the advertisers. On the other hand, they might be totally uncorrupt (but not necessarily right). Chris (From a sedentary position on the fence) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:09:15 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Language Chris (Who is a classic Mugwump, with his mug on one side of the fence, and his wump on t'other.) said: > After I reported my observations one or two other beekeepers (including > Norman Carreck, a genuine scientist) took the trouble to look at their > observation hives for the same behavior (ignored dancers) and found it. > However, nobody said it was a well understood part of the process. > Perhaps, Jim, you could elucidate to help our better understanding and > enlightenment. Heck, I don't claim any special insight or unique knowledge. But there are a few possible reasons why a dancer might be ignored: 1) No foragers available. Lots of house bees to unload foragers, but no actual "unemployed foragers" hanging around waiting for a hot tip. 2) Information overload. Every forager is dancing, since the observation hive is in a NEW LOCATION, and every find seems a "treasure trove". At some point, the bees might start to ignore all but the dances with the most over-the-top break-dancing. I have a hard time seeing a bee dance clearly in real time. I have to video tape, and then play it back in slow motion. Maybe others have better eyes than mine, but I'd think that judging the relative "vigor" of one dance versus another is difficult without slo-mo video instant-replay. 3) Not sweet enough. The forager is enthusiastic, but her nectar is unimpressive. This SHOULD happen often, as the forager has found a "good supply", but the food critics think "I've tasted much sweeter from all the others". The forager lacks perspective by definition. She cannot know if her load is a "winner" or not. 4) Too far away. The forager makes a long "waggle run", hundreds of little bee feet pick up the vibration, and hundreds of multi-faceted eyes roll towards the heavens as the assembled crowd thinks "Who is SHE kidding?" 5) Elves? 6) Witchcraft? 7) US Attorney General John Ashcroft? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:34:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ruth & All, Ruth said: When I stated that you are "still a DL supporter", I meant, in the face of a very large body of very strong evidence against the DL hypothesis. What strong body of evidence? If the evidence was so overwelming the beekeeping books would have been rewriten by now. Simply put both DL and "odor alone" are simply *hypothesis.* Hypothesis: 1. An UNPROVED scientific CONCLUSION drawn from known facts. Come up with some new facts and we will take another look at DL verus odor alone. Ruth further said: Such evidence does support the "odor alone" hypothesis, because there are no other alternatives. Come on Ruth "no other alternatives?" I love telling my favorite researcher / beekeeper story. Years ago before varroa ever came to Missouri I was shown a dead varroa mite under a microscope. I large picture of a varroa was displayed by the microscope. After looking in the microscope I asked why the varroa on the slide (Varroa d.) was oblong and the picture of the varroa ( varroa J.)showed a ROUND varroa. Ruth said; The "odor alone" hypothesis requires the dance, because, contrary to v. Frisch's belief, Important point that you believe that odor alone requires the dance as most people believing the DL hypothesis believe the bees will find the reward even without the odor! Ruth said: Incidentally, I am truly relieved to find that the reference ODea cited to the effect that recruitment by dancing foragers does not exist in Africanized honeybees appears to be in error I spent two hours on the phone last night with one of the foremost AHB researchers. He said plenty of DL in the AHb he studied in many countries for the USDA. Ruth said: . Of course, I never doubted that it had to be in error. The low dancing frequency observed in AHB need not be a rule, because dancing frequency is affected by very many different factors. The waggle dance is affected by very many different factors? Enjoyed the discussion Ruth! Bob trying to get the last word in! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be very labour intensive and I would imagine that the hive > would make queen cells with the result that you would be looking for a > virgin queen if you made the break more than 2 weeks. I dont understand the reasoning here. If the queen was caged more than 6 days and queen cells had not been started, there would be no viable larvae to produce a queen. Some food for thought. Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:46:41 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Melted darker wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Obviously, it's too dark to sell to candle makers, as they=20 prefer the white cappings wax, as I understand it.<< Melt the wax in boiling water and add the juice of one lemon, this will = bleach the wax. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Melted darker wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Obviously, it's too dark to sell to candle makers, as they prefer the white cappings wax, as I understand it.<< I like to have many colors of wax for variety when I make candles. I use the dark brown colors to make my "bear with skep" candles. Makes a beautiful bear. I tell my customers that my candles are 100% beeswax in natural colors (no artificial color added) and I tell them where the various colors come from. Candles in multiple colors (white, yellow, orange, bronze, and brown) seem to sell better for me than all of the same color. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas (DBA Aggieland Apiaries/Layne's Lumens) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott L Wiegel Subject: Accidental DL Experiment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All I am a new beekeeper - and a true fence sitter when it comes to the DL and all its controversy. But after reading the lengthy discussion on this list, I realized that I had quite accidentally performed an experiment which seems to disprove the odor alone hypothesis. The honey flow has paused where I am at and I am busy cleaning up all the honey supers. As part of that exercise, I end up with a lot of cappings wax (mixed with honey). Not having a solar wax melter (it is on my list of projects) I decided to give the honey back to the bees by placing all the cappings in a tub and carrying it out to the hives. Needless to say, there is not a lot of foraging activity right now - just a lot of bees hanging out in front of the hives. The first tub that I placed in the Apiary was brought in with the wind blowing at my back straight towards the hives (again - this was quite accidental as I am a new beekeeper). Before I got close to the table to set it down - there were thousands of bees leaving all of the hives and headed straight towards the tub. No time for dancing, No time for any real communication between the bees. Bees were not flying in random directions. They were essentially coming in straight against the wind and circling above my head and landing in the tub. Every hive had gone from no activity to intense activity in less than the thirty seconds that it took to walk over and set down the tub. At the time I remember thinking "they must have smelled the honey and come running." The next tub that I brought out I decided that I was going to bring it in with the wind blowing in my face (from behind the hives). When I did this - there was no change in activity at the hives. The bees were just milling around like they have been wont to do recently. After approximately 10 minutes I noticed a single bee had landed in the tub and was filling up. After about another ten minutes - one of the hives had become incredibly active and there were again lots of bees landing in the tub and filling up. The other hives joined in slowly but the end result was that all hives were again sending out foragers to collect the free honey. I would also state that on the second day the first wave of foragers did not go out, circle downwind, and then find the honey - as one would expect if odor alone was responsible. They pretty much acted like they knew where the honey was. >From this accidental experiment I am absolutely convinced that the bees can smell the honey and that it was a powerful inducement for all the hives (I know that I will never personally carry a tub in from downwind again). But it seems equally obvious that on the second day there was some communications within the first hive (and eventually between all the hives) that told the idle foragers exactly where the goodies were. The communications between hives could have been entirely visual (increased activity in one hive caused the foragers in the other hives to "check it out") or based on some odor trail left by the foragers returning to the first hive. But without some effective communications between bees I can not explain the behaviors that I observed. Some other small points and background. These are new hives installed from packages in early June. This is my first year as a beekeeper. So any attempt to refute odor as an inducement by stating that the bees were somehow conditioned to expect honey when they see a beekeeper approaching with a tub would be silly at best (at least on the first day). However, that could be used as a partial explanation on the second day as the bees probably knew that there was honey in that tub. But most (if not all) of the bees could not have seen me place the second tub. I would be very interested in hearing from any of the dance language antagonists on an explanation for these empirical observations. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:16:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? In-Reply-To: <00ce01c377a3$13fbf5c0$0e02a8c0@WIEGELLT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott L Wiegel wrote: >>From this accidental experiment I am absolutely convinced that the bees > can smell the honey and that it was a powerful inducement for all the > hives The issue is not that bees can or cannot detect odor. It how they use it and if it is the thing that directs them to a nectar source. If I am downwind of a big mac, I will know it is there. If I am upwind I will not. The issue is if a friend finds it, how does he direct me to it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:43:24 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Yeah, I've seen that! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From another Mugwump: Re: Suicide bees; Yes, I have had many dive into the smoker, either spout or open top. I just figured they were doing the ultimate guard bee thing, Get a few really angry bees, open the top, puff to flame up, and go on minus a few obnoxius buzz-heads (or tails, as the case may be.) Hive rage? Never thought about writing a dissertation on it. Re: Wiggle-waggle; Pure joy? Do they hum "Achy Breaky Heart? Line dancing, break dancing? Angels of Agriculture, and don't have a pin to dance on? As jim observed, 5) Elves? 6) Witchcraft? 7) US Attorney General John Ashcroft? Whatever - dance they do. I've seen that. So tell me, does it matter one pollen grain whether they sniff or dance as to how I site or manage my bees? I've never been good at dancing, and my sniffer is not the best, but I try to place them near things that provide pollen and honey. And they 'preciate it! Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:11:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scott, Do not place the cappings close to the hives as will promote robbing when the honey flow is over. 300 feet is the usual distance told by the experts. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? Gee... a new beekeeper posts his own astute observations, and all he gets is picky criticisms. Mr. Wiegel, please excuse the poor manners of our colleagues. 1) Welcome to Bee-L. 2) Being observant is a good thing, and YES this is a very good place to describe and speculate on your observations, ideas, and thoughts. 3) Despite initial appearances, everyone here DOES like you. How can we NOT like you? You are a beekeeper. 4) While you may at times feel offended, insulted, abused, confused, misused, or belittled by what is said here, this is only because everyone respects everyone enough to not throw underhand pitches. 5) You can search the archives to find out about traditional approaches, but when doing so, recall that "tradition" is nothing but an innovation that worked. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:34:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? "Bob Harrison"said Do not place the cappings close to the hives as will promote robbing when the honey flow is over. 300 feet is the usual distance told by the experts. I would suggest that most experts worth their salt would advise strongly against allowing bees to clean up cappings as it is an excellent way of spreading disease. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:00:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6 August, Todd introduced : "the supressive effects of broodless periods on varroa populations. ....I wonder if a usable, chemical free varroa management plan could be built around this concept, without sacrificing too much production?" May I venture that there is an effect, yes, but it can only be only suppressive, and therefore insufficient on its own as a control measure. I surmise (yes, surmise) that noone would want to cage the queen before the 'critical date' - the day after which there is insufficient time for the bee to become a forager - say 1 June in UK. Caging the queen then means all sealed brood would hatch by 3rd week July - and all varooa would then be riding on bees. It is likely two things both then happen - (1) an increase in any tendency within the colony to groom, as the opportunity to groom would increase in proportion ... plus increase in the number of varooa that simply lose their hold and fall to the floor if that can be assumed also to be simply in proportion to the number of 'riders'. PROVIDED that the hive has a mesh floor, and any tray is at least 2 inches below the mesh, those failed jockeys never return. (2) loss of varooa attached to foragers that die in the fields. There do not seem to be many published charts of the variation in colony size thruout the year - I tend to use the 6 charts given by E P Jeffree in a lecture to the UK Central Association of Beekeepers in 1959. They mostly show colonies peaking around end June, followed by a steep drop of up to 25% by end July. So we could expect some 25% of varooa to be lost in action, unless varooa are particularly good at selecting the younger and luckier mounts. Adding the two effects - for a break in egg laying of say 3 weeks - might bring down varooa by what, say 50%? Or is there another mechanism I have overlooked? For that reduction, the colony will pay a penalty from reduction of nurse bees during July. That may be important since less brood rearing in July will lead on to a shortage of nurses in August / September when rearing of winter bees should get going. So there must be some risk of weakening the colony. A way to use the principle of a brood break into a viable control measure is (I suggest) to positively attack the varooa while there is no sealed brood, rather than rely on natural decline. There are so many ways when varooa are exposed - especially if the hive has a mesh floor and so varooa need only be shocked so they lose their grip, not killed outright. Combs can be sprayed for example with perhaps sucrose octanote esters, or simply puffed with talc or icing sugar. One I have up my sleeve for resistant mites is to puff tobacco smaoke upwards thru the mesh floor, with the supers off and the brood covered temporaily with just a mesh screen, so that the smoke can blow thru for a few minutes but the bees not take off - no need to handle the combs unless it is preferred to take out the queen for safety. That leaves just the problem that a complete brood break may leave the colony short of nurses. The method I use is to divide the colony at its brood peak into a broodless swarm (with the queen) and the brood plus nurses. If there are no queencells at the time, the two parts are left in contact for a week, by when 'sueprcedure cells' will have been started in the brood - if there are cells, the two are completely separated straight away. The (broodless) swarm can then be treated for varooa - at present, still with strips - and the queen keeps laying. Three weeks later the brood in the other half has all emerged so that can be treated. That part will also have produced a new queen - which can be substitued for the old queen when the two parts are re-united, so solving swarming for the rest of the season. I feel this is a good example of 'Integrated Pest Management' - evolving new routines that manage both the colony and pests at the same time. The difficulty is of course the labour invoved if the colony is kept in a conventional tired hive with the swarm being kept on the floor and the old brood placed at the top of the pile - you have to keep lifting off all the supers to get at the lower brood nest. The method becomes much easier using a double length box in which the two parts are kept at the same level, separated temporaily by a solid vertical divider. Yes, it is a new pattern of hive - but not original - even so, of no interest to those who feel beekeeping reached perfection with Root's Simplicity hive (virtually the modern Langstoth) around the year 1890. But it is an alternative for beekeepers who want to solve swarming and varooa control and also reduce the sheer labour of handling heavy supers so often. (My supers are also made half width, to take 5 wide-spaced Manley frames - reducing the maxximum weight to 16 pounds.) Other examples of double-length hives are of course L L Langstroth's own twin hives illusted in the frontispiece to the 1977 facsilile edition of Langstroth's Hive and the Honeybee, 1853 - inside Langstroth says his twin hives were the best. A more recent double-length supered hive is shown in BeeSource.com/EOB/Urban Bee Condo/Long Hive, but I do not know details of that. My own pattern of supered double- length hive for deep brood frames (Dartington Long Deep Hive) is now being tried by a number of UK beekeepers, each batch made in Eastern Europe being sold out quickly - so there may (or may not) be independent verification of the method at some time soon . So yes, it may well be possible to establish a cjhemical-free method for varooa control that starts with the principle of a broodless period. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:45:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Anatomy of a Controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: "Chill down one set of bees, remove antennas with a very tiny pair of wire cutters, and attach those little numbered tags to each bee. (Disgusting and cruel, but so is letting a colony die as a "control" in a varroa study. " This is horrible - and being less horrible than another crime is no defence. (I can strangle my wife, can I, because burning her to death would be worse?). To the onlooker, like me, it seems strange that definitive expweriements have not been carried out, using just an observation hive, a feeding station with two bowls of identical sugar syrup except one is 'pure' and the other has an added ordor, and a thin wire cage just big enough for a returning forager to be imprisoned but able to run up and down (with a turning chamber at each end) but not waggle. Would that not be enough for every combination of odor/ no odor/ waggle / no waggle / up wind / down wind/ to be tested? Could someone just remind us - briefly and succintly - just what the problem is that makes this particular observation of bee behaviour so intensely difficult? (Not the arguments again - just why in principle it is apparently so difficult to resolve). Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:14:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I am downwind of a big mac, I will know it is there. If I am > upwind I will not. The issue is if a friend finds it, how does he > direct me to it. I think that was the analogy I used last time this thing went around, and I still like it. If you are hungry and looking for a MacDonalds, how do you find the mother lode? There are many ways. One is smell, another is sight, another is association -- if you see Home depot or Wendy's can Micky D be far away? Advertising figures into it, too, with radio, TV or print helping zero in on a meal. References from friends and directions from people on the street assist in finding the target. There are many many ways that we locate things. I've never seen anyone dancing about a nearby MacDonalds, but... Of course, if you are less specific in your tastes, then tracking an animal in the forest, or looking in places suitable for the plants you like, can be added to the list. I think we understimate insects. Everyone wants a simple answer. I've seen ants 'ranching aphids'. Whooda thunk it? Maybe bees use ESP, and the dancing is just a celebration -- or religious ritual. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:50:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? Hey, Scott I think first of all you should stop feeding cappings immediately, you're going to get robbing, and it's going to be ugly. Some of the European members are in countries where it is illegal to treat for certain diseases, so they have to be more careful that you or I (in California) with spreading disease. What I do with my cappings is to mix them 50-50 with water and put them in a feeding jar. Then I put the jar on top of a hive I'm using to make comb honey. Or you can put it on top of a hive that is weak, etc... Then just put an empty super on top and a lid on, so the other bees can't get in. I've been doing this for several years now, and yes I may be spreading disease, but I treat for foul brood in all my hives, so I haven't really noticed any ill effects, and I find it a great way to make extra money out of my cappings, especially as the sections of comb honey sell very well. As to your experiment, it doesn't really contradict the hypothesis that scent is what the bees use to find food. You would have to do a more formal study. I myself stopped putting "wet" supers back on my hives when there isn't a flow, because the smell of honey, once it gets back into the other hives in the vicinity, sends the bees literally crazy if there isn't good forage, and they go out looking for it, just as the scent hypotheses states. And you can expect to kiss some of your weaker hives goodbye. Very best Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:09:38 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tim Vaughan understands my article. As he wrote, I am proposing that "the dance is a vestigal trait which lost its original use which was only useful to the dancer but has evolved a secondary use which is useful to recruits." What I am suggesting is that its use now is to attract other bees to sample odours from good foraging sites. There is no communication of locality via a "language". Tim Vaughan wrote that my article was "Idle speculation, but interesting". The important point I want to get across is that there are other explanations for the dance besides a) linguistic communication OR b) no function now or ever. Julian O'Dea Canberra, Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:38:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott, As several others have now told you, allowing open access to honey/cappings is a no-no. I learned this the hard way a couple of years ago. I extracted a few supers, and thought I was doing a "good" thing by placing the empty, wet supers on the ground near a couple of hives. Although I didn't have a robbing incident, the bees got VERY aggressive (this was late in the season, after the last flow) - bees were everywhere...I got stung, the dog got stung, I think the cat got stung...all just going about our business in the back yard, well away from the hives. It's probably not so bad to place cappings or wet supers in a box on top of the hive earlier in the season (some books & beekeepers recommend this), but definitely be wary of doing so after the flows are done. The caveat here has already been mentioned - if you're not sure of the condition of all of your hives, you could spread disease. Regards, Todd. P.S. - welcome to the list. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? In-Reply-To: <00ce01c377a3$13fbf5c0$0e02a8c0@WIEGELLT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 10 Sep 2003 at 8:54, Scott L Wiegel wrote: > But after reading the lengthy discussion on > this list, I realized that I had quite accidentally performed an > experiment which seems to disprove the odor alone hypothesis. > > The honey flow has paused where I am at and I am busy cleaning up all > the honey supers. I'm just listening, Scott, on this particular discussion, and enjoying all the back and forth. And I want to thank you for sharing your astute observations. When I see a beginning beekeeper that is watching and thinking, I say to myself, he or she has the potential to be a very good beekeeper. But I did want to encourage you to find an alternative to letting the bees rob cappings. You'll probably discover it by yourself in time, but take it from a long term beekeeper, that it's not a good idea to get bees robbing, ever. Once they start, they hate to stop, and your weaker hives are at risk. When the robbing gets underway the bees get defensive, and you get stung. Worse yet, maybe your neighbors get stung. Beekeepers have lost good locations because bees got to robbing and neighbors got stung. Others have mentioned the disease risk. Your honey may be clean, but once they start robbing, who knows where they will rob? What to do with wet cappings? For non-commercial beekeepers, a solar melter is one inexpensive possibility. The honey will be below your wax in the mold. It will be darker but still makes nice baking honey. Another choice would be to wash the cappings with a minimal amount of water, then use this (adding a little more honey if needed) to make mead. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com or http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:07:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" > I would suggest that most experts worth their salt would advise strongly > against allowing bees to clean up cappings as it is an excellent way of > spreading disease." If u mark supers with hive numbers in chalk, and use a number of uncapping trays (simple rectangular catering sieves over plastic storage boxes) it is quite practical to reserve cappings for return to the right hive - having drained out the honey that drips, I just tip the cappings from the sieve into the storage box and put that straight back in - there is free space by then at the back of a double-length hive, otherwise of course u need empty supers to enclose the tray when put at the top of the hive. I find the bees make quite lovely patterns comby constructions out of the cappings - which I just submerge later when pouring in the winter syrup (these storage boxes are my deep feeders, needing only a crumpled shopping bag as a float), although the children at school often suggest selling it as 'bee art'. There is a market there I am sure - but better perhaps to induce the bees to make these wierd but beautiful shapes between two sheets of perspex that could have a cold light fixed behind on the wall. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:21:39 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It would be very labour intensive and I would imagine that the hive > > would make queen cells with the result that you would be looking for a > > virgin queen if you made the break more than 2 weeks. > > I dont understand the reasoning here. If the queen was caged more than > 6 days and queen cells had not been started, there would be no viable larvae > to produce a queen. > Some food for thought. I guess this is aimed at me. If you cage a queen and leave her in the hive, in most instances the bees will start queen cells, despite the queen's presence. I have seen a hive with banked queens raise cells, the resultant queen go out to mate and return, lay eggs whilst maintaining the banked queens. So if you wish to use the caging of the queen as a varroa control, if the queen was caged for more than 2 weeks, you will most likely have a virgin queen in the hive to find before you release the old caged queen. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:15:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ahem. . . . On a bit more serious note. . . . “What I am suggesting is that its [dance] use now is to attract other bees to sample odors from good foraging sites. There is no communication of locality via a ‘language’.” Good on ya, Mite! I am a big fan of open-feeding. Done right under right conditions, nothing beats the efficacy of this method; the bees will work at it just like another flow: they wolf down one barrel in nearly two days, depending on the number of your colonies. [Spreading disease? Probably, but show me some hard data: who, where, when, what, why, how, and which disease? This spreading-disease hypothesis could be just another long-standing, codified, and carved in the stone mumbo jumbo] Back to the bee lingo: My observations seem to concur with Julian’s assertion: finding location is a “hit and miss” operation. A few bees will nail—-“stumble into” more likely—-the location very quickly; however, a whole lot more bees will buzz around, a la ground-hugging spit fighters, all over the place, especially dark or shaded areas, long before they finally home in and, only then, they hone in on the route: the shortest direct flight possible. It takes a while for most of them to figure the location out, blowing in the wind the Nobel-prize winning nonsense that so many circles counterclockwise means so many yards and miles (Are we talking about bee- miles or human miles—-to figure this out please read their hieroglyphics writ large at the bottom of each cell. To me those letters look more like Chinese Ideograms!). Their frantic search-flights resemble those of anxious scout bees from a spilled swarm, right before an impending storm on the horizon. I do not suppose some of you will believe this hit and miss communication. Fix a small amount of syrup, regardless of the ratio since the bees will take anything sweet like nectar (80% water), and set that station at least 100 feet away from the yard. One can easily observe how ANGRY their buzzing sounds. Sometimes, this ground-hugging, anxious buzzing will go on albeit others are at the ground zero in a feeding frenzy. Yoon Oklahoma is OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:20:40 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Propolis & Pines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have not seen a lot of responses to Todd's enquiry on propolis collection. It is some years since I tried to rsearch plants for desirable propolis qualities and I am not sure I do not have the proper scientific qualifications to draw conclusions but as there may be some interest have commented on Todd's post > Are pines (and other conifers) known to increase propolis production? What other major plants do bees >utilize for propolis? We are collecting and marketing raw propolis from Australian flora. Propolis collection can vary between hives in the same apiary. Propolis deposits will increase dramatically if ants move into the hive lids (these are the very small sugar ants which seem to co-exist without weakening the hives until evicted from the lids by the beekeeper). A reference to the properties of propolis is contained at http://www.goldenharmonyinc.com (have not checked this recently so apologies if it is not current). Propolis appears to be made up of as many as 150 complex compounds and there are also up to 200 flavonoids, many of which have not yet been identified or researched for beneficial qualities. Laboratory testing of raw propolis appears to consist of checking for flavonoids known for beneficial qualities through prior research. Not surprisingly, propolis from different countries consists of different flavonoids. In relation to specific flavonoids, we located a research document at The University of Queensland (Web page: http://www.uq.oz.au/fst/lihu.html) where Dr. Lihu Yao is (or was at that time) researching flavonoids in Australian honey for the purpose of authenticating the geographical and botanical origin of Australian honey using profiles of honey flavonoids. In response to Todd's query, eucalyptus species certainly yield propolis as do conifers. Flavonoids from the Australian grass tree have been identified. Dr. Stefan Stangaciu., of the Institute of Apitherapy, Romania informed me that: "No matter the vegetable or geographical origin, propolis has almost the same biological functions" This is of course assuming the bees are not incorporating wet paint or melting bitumen as has been reported in industrialised zones. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/09/03 05:03:29 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << But there are a few possible reasons why a dancer might be ignored: 1) No foragers available. 2) Information overload. 3) Not sweet enough. 4) Too far away. 5) Elves? 6) Witchcraft? 7) US Attorney General John Ashcroft? >> >From Jim's multiple choice answers it is apparent that not all aspects of DL (if that is what it is) are as well understood as many suppose. There is room for more research, preferably without mutilating the bees to satisfy our curiosity. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:17:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Accidental DL Experiment? "Christine Gray" said > If u mark supers with hive numbers in chalk, and use a number of uncapping > trays (simple rectangular catering sieves over plastic storage boxes) it is > quite practical to reserve cappings for return to the right hive - "U" (how that irritates me - almost as much as varooa..) clearly have very few hives! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:01:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: Bee Language In-Reply-To: <12f.3157aeb5.2c923151@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, The correct answer to the question why honeybee foragers sometimes dance without dance attendants, is: They don't. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:44:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >If you cage a queen and leave her in the hive, in most instances the bees will start queen cells, despite the queen's presence. Hi Trevor: Here in Alaska most people who have bees don’t overwinter. (Alaska Bee-l members Tom Elliott, Keith Malone, and I do, of course!) For those who don’t, the standard practice is to cage the queen a few weeks prior to extraction. After all the brood has emerged every frame is extracted and the bees are generally killed off. I extract the honey for a few people around here. This year two separate people brought frames to me with capped brood after the queen had been caged for over a month, and they just could not understand how that happened. One of the caged queens had died in her cage. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:55:35 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen wrote: >>This year two separate people brought frames to me with capped brood after the queen had been caged for over a month, and they just = could not understand how that happened. One of the caged queens had died in = her cage.<< About five percent of all colonies at any one time have two queens. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Bassett Subject: syracuse n.y. It would seem that I will be transfering from Mass. to Syracuse N.Y.. could anyone let me know who to contact or what is required to legally move hives to the state of N.Y. ? since I have more hives than I would want to move, anybody interested in free hives if I indeed do transfer, please contact me offline hives are located in Somers/Enfield Conn. 20 hives 5 locations, currently permenant pollination contract $35 per hive. Thompson conn. brimfield/monson/spencer/hampden mass. Thanks mike bassett michael.bassett@us.ngrid.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee "language" In-Reply-To: <200309111115.h8BBFriL014137@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yoonytoons wrote: > I am a big fan of open-feeding. Done right under right conditions, > nothing beats the efficacy of this method; the bees will work at it just > like another flow: they wolf down one barrel in nearly two days, depending > on the number of your colonies. [Spreading disease? Probably, I once open fed, but never again. It is a disservice to both your bees and to neighbors. Check under the area where you open feed and you will find a lot of dead bees. The bees also get aggressive toward anyone in the area. A neighbor asked why she had bees bothering her when she never had that problem before. I was open feeding. Open feeding may be good for the beekeeper (makes it easy to clean up the mess we create) but it is not good for anyone else. I extract twice, once after the summer flow and once after the fall flow (per George Imire). Supers go back on the hives in the summer (over an inner cover) and into storage in a non heated barn in the fall. I can get by with that in our Maine winters. Plus, since I get two to four times as much honey in the summer, I only have to deal with half or less wet supers in the fall. The rest are clean. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:01:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Allen wrote: >>This year two separate people brought frames to me with capped >brood after the queen had been caged for over a month, and they just could >not understand how that happened. One of the caged queens had died in her >cage.<< And Roger answer: >About five percent of all colonies at any one time have two queens. Very interesting ! I observed that, this year by two sisters, daughters of one of my breeders: after one month, the splendid brood with the young marked and clipped queen is examined... A young queen runs quickly on another frame, hides and is lost. The other, in the next hive, was laying with his mother. She is marked at once and put in another small colonie. One month later, the granddaughter is visited, she is always there on a beautifull brood, but a young queens run on the close frame and a queen cell almost capped hangs in the bottom of the frame. In the first hive, where the young queen was lost, two queens are laying on the same frame: one marked, another not! Seems this phenomenon is recent because the authors of the previous century doesn't speak about that. On the contrary, they say two queens fight and one kills the other. Obviously, here it's not the case. Jean-Marie Van Dyck Belgium :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:45:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean-Marie said: Seems this phenomenon is recent because the authors of the previous century doesn't speak about that. On the contrary, they say two queens fight and one kills the other. Obviously, here it's not the case. I can not speak for bees in Belgium but in the U.S. today the bees I run are very different than the bees I kept in the 50's and 60's. James Bach (Washington State ret. bee inspector) has been one of the few people to report the change at a national meeting (ABF convention Portland , Oregon). James read for about five minutes differences in the bees of today and of yesterday. At the end James gave no explanation as to why the difference. Dave Hackenburg was sitting next to me and leaned over and said he was seeing the same thing and had hoped James would have given his opinion as to why the difference in our bees. I later asked Dr. Shiminuki (then head of Beltsville Bee Lab) his opinion of James comments. "Shim" said he believed the genetics from years of breeding for certain traits had produced those traits but had also produced certain undesirable or at least not the normal traits in our bees. I am not saying that a hive with two queens is undesirable but only not the norm as compared to beekeeping history. 40 years ago when a hive swarmed the hive requeened most of the time. Recently only about 50% have been requeening. This year every pure Russian hive which swarmed requeened. Perhaps the genetics are not as screwed up on the Russian bees? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:49:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: Not to open another can of worms on open-feeding, let me just say that what you say is right in many bee yards, in general, and the suburban ones, in particular. Recall I said “Done right under right conditions.” I live in the country where there is no known beekeeper in my neighborhood. And I do this in dead winter due to fluctuating warm winter weather despite I keep my bees in two deeps; of course, I do not have to do this all the time. Furthermore, if you use bone-dry wheat straw, at least four-inches thick [check the archives for those wanting to know more], and not packed as found in a bale, seldom will you drown your bees as many as you allege. I have been doing for many years and I know. On the other hand, imagine having to feed fifty colonies in dead winter, due to an unusual swell in temperature, which is not uncommon in Oklahoma. Imagine further having to open all the cott’n pick’n boxes—- knowing too well the temp can dive deep overnight. My winter loss often results from my bees having failed to recluster while they got mother-load of honey on their nose. Most of all I really like the efficacy of open feeding: minimum labor and quick-intake. Yoon Why do we say Oklahoma is OK? Because we jest don't know how to spell mediocre. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 06:29:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Open Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I am a big fan of open-feeding. Done right under right conditions, >> nothing beats the efficacy of this method... > I once open fed, but never again. It is a disservice to both your bees > and to neighbors. Well, actually, I don't know that I would recommend open feeding for all people in a localities, but, open feeding -- like abandonment and many other expert beekeeping techniques -- is just another tool in a smart beekeeper's toolkit, and like many tools, it's application and risks need to be appreciated, or harm may be done. Some may never have a use for such a tool. Open feeding is an expert technique, and can bite you, if not used properly, with complete understanding of the parameters. In the proper place, at the proper time, and in the hands of the right beekeepers, open feeding is invaluable and irreplaceable. > Check under the area where you open feed and you will find a lot of > dead bees. That is a clear indicator of a job that was not done right. Too small a feeding area for too many bees, or use of insufficient or inappropriate floats is clearly indicated. > The bees also get aggressive toward anyone in the area. A neighbor > asked why she had bees bothering her when she never had that problem > before. I was open feeding. If the job is done right and the bees do not have to compete too strongly due to a small surface area, if they do not run out of the feed suddenly, there is often little commotion. On the other hand, if the bees are normally agressive, and/or they are near starvation, and there is a continuing total dearth and the days are long and warm, with the hives located in an area where people and or animals pass close by, problems can occur. If it is honey and not syrup being fed, the potential for problems is greater. Nonetheless, many, many tankerloads of sugar syrup and HFCS are currently being fed in my part of the world these early September days, as Fall approaches, by beekeepers who know what they are doing, and have few problems in the process. For a more in-depth discussion of the details of open feeding, please consult the archives. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:31:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Language Ruth said: > The correct answer to the question why honeybee foragers sometimes > dance without dance attendants, is: They don't. The observation was: > a smaller (but significant) proportion of the dancing > bees were apparently ignored by their sisters. Anyone using words like "correct answer" in regard to an observation-rich area like "bee dance" is revealing that they not only have a firmly-held opinion, but that they are not in the mood to let new observations or experiments influence them. Chris said: > ...my daughter who assists with editing a peer reviewed scientific magazine > and we discussed the peer reviewing process. In a small world where most of > the participants know each other one way or another all the corrupt influences > you would expect, from mutual back scratching downwards, are common. It is only > the commercial influence of advertising that keeps the corruption in check as > if the magazine loses its reputation it loses its advertising revenue. What a depressing view. It sounds to me like she works for a small publication covering a tiny fraction of an unregarded backwater of science. In most specializations, there are simply too many researchers for everyone to even know OF each other. Good journals also make reviewers sign agreements that: a) Demand that reviewers recuse themselves from reviewing work by anyone they know and like (or dislike). Good journals would also NEVER include someone in a review who has published in the specific area at issue. b) Expect scientists to "play fair", since a corrupt review process is just as corrupt when it is YOUR turn to publish. Good journals also pay careful attention to reviewer comments and author replies, which can reveal far too much at times, and thereby, expose someone who is acting in an unethical manner. When dealing with human beings, one has to admit that anyone can be "less than fair" at times. Comments made by reviewers that appear to be "unfair" never reach the author. My only experience is with the major physics journals, and even the reviewer agreements themselves are "confidential". The whole concept of peer review is based upon the assumption that no one is going to mention that they are a reviewer for "Journal A" in the area of "sub-specialty X". To do so is to violate the agreement, and loose the beer money that comes in from participating in reviews. If you think about it, reviewers who found a submitted paper to be deficient and were REALLY corrupt would not offer too many objections, to assure that the paper would be published mostly "as is". They would then promptly write a paper of their own, ripping the paper at hand to shreds. This would enhance their reputation as a "deep thinker", and would also add another published paper to their C.V., which directly helps their "career" at their employer. That's why every review is done by multiple people, including at least one "young gun", since there is a very high probability that a young gun will view the process and task as "an honor", rather than an obligation/burden, and work hard on trying to "help" the author(s) on every weak point. The bad news is that people are not perfect. The good news is that even the checks and balances have checks and balances! The best trick is seldom played by journals, but it involves taking a copy of the submitted paper and one of the sets of comments offered by a reviewer, and sending them to YET ANOTHER reviewer with a request to evaluate the rigor and fairness of the review/comments. jim (Who reminds all that "Science" is the art of infallability, perputrated upon non-scientists.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:31:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/09/03 05:04:22 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << The correct answer to the question why honeybee foragers sometimes dance without dance attendants, is: They don't. >> Ruth, I have seen this and so have other people. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:07:01 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Two queens in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable J-M. Van Dyck wrote: >>Seems this phenomenon is recent because the authors of the previous = century doesn't speak about that. On the contrary, they say two queens fight and one kills the other. Obviously, here it's not the case.<< Clearly another case of not taking everything one reads as gospel. =20 Actually this phenomenon of more than one queen is mentioned in Steve = Taber's book "Breeding Super Bees" and is produced on the plate on page = 423 of Raymond Zimmer's book "L'abeille Buckfast en questions". There = are two good photographs of two queens living happily together in = Zimmer's book. Unfortunately this quaint book is not available in = English. The comments made by the two above mentioned authors fit in = well with our own observations and that of other experienced beekeepers. = There is probably nothing more annoying that introducing a beautiful, = marked, clipped, laying queen, with a pedigree as long as an arm, only = to check the hive a week later to find a little "scrubber" laying = happily.=20 Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:48:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Can anyone please provide me with a fully accurate e-mail address for Dr. Julian ODea (in Australia), including all capital letters, commas, dots? I haven't been able to contact him through the e-mail address provided in his publication of 2000, or in his latest message posted on the Be-L website. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, In a message dated Sept. 12 Chris states he has seen dances without dance-attendants, and so haveothers. I received many such statements from readers of the Irishbeekeeping website, including persistent such claims from Norman Carreck who is a honeybee researcher. Norman reported that this is very common during periods of rich natural forage, and all he had to do to see it was go to an observation hive during his lunch break, although he later added that a dance-attendant is present when the dance starts. There are several problems with such claims: 1. The claims stand in blatant contrast to everything published in the scientific literature, often by scientists who spent many years studying honeybee dances. For instance, v. Frisch unequivocally stated (among others, in his well known 1967 book) that foragers never dance without dance-attendants. He was so adamant on this point as to provide a hypothetical explanation as to why this is so. I do not accept his explanation, but I cannot question his statement that foragers never dance without dance-attendants. 2. Claims to the contrary are anecdotal only. Norman explained that he could easily send me a video of such an event (which I would need to very carefully analyze in slow motion) but won't do so, because, as he insisted, it was my responsibility to obtain an observation hive and check for myself. He also would not attempt to publish his claim that foragers can dance without dance-attendants (which I consider sensatinal, as it has never been published before), because he sees nothing unusual in that claim. 3. All the scientifically published information about honeybee dances, and especially the detailed information in v. Frisch's 1967 book, leads me to conclude that under certain circumstances it is only too easy to overlook the presence of dance-attendants. (The dancer is sometimes followed by only a single dance-atendant. A dance-attendant sometimes attends only very briefly, and then leaves, and another dance-attendant may join. The dance usually takes place in a throng of other bees.) In view of all that, there is no need to seriously consider, or even bother with mere anecdotal statements on this issue. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:10:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Bee Language A good example of when dancers are even noticed by other bees are when you are splitting or otherwise tearing up a hive. Then you will see a very exited worker landing on a mass of bees milling about in confusion and immediately begin dancing on their backs. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > 40 years ago when a hive swarmed the hive requeened most of the time. > Recently only about 50% have been requeening. This year every pure Russian > hive which swarmed requeened. Perhaps the genetics are not as screwed up on > the Russian bees? > I had four hives this year deliberately queenless, hoping for new mated queens, but all failed to produce one (NWC's, Italian cross and Russian mongrels). All had plenty of queen cells (five minimum). I recently discovered another hive that is queenless, and seems to have made no effort to raise another. I've only had bees a few years now, but it seems that the odds should be a lot higher for a successful supersedure/replacement. So far, I'm batting zero. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:40:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Fall Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark wrote: "Could you elaborate a little on the problems of overwintering on fall honey and how one ensures that the bees have honey but not fall honey" >From my experience in Indiana I have found my fall honey to be considerably darker than my spring or summer honey. Reading up on causes for this phenomina, the sources claimed it was because of a higher mineral content (among other things) contained in the fall honey. Further reading seems to suggest that the higher content of material other than sugar content is what is detrimental to wintering over on fall honey. This "other" material in the honey seems to be what causes a consideral disruption of the bees' digestive tracts and which necessitates frequent cleansing flights. If this is not possible due to adverse weather, then we get the condition of retention of feces which should be deficated. Would an annalogy of having diarhea and not having a commode available be appropriate here? Anyway, less "other" material in honey results in less need for cleansing flights, from what I have read, at least. Hope I have not pressed somebody's "fire away" button. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Open Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen explained open feeding as used by the professinal beekeeper. Right before winter sets in is a time when i might open feed. Another is when I simply do not have the manpower available to feed each hive and the bees need fed. Problems with spring open feeding: 1. The weak hives need to cover brood and get very little of the feed. 2. The strong hives plug the brood nest with feed which cuts back brood rearing and can cause the bees to hit the trees (swarm) ! 3. Hive bodies full of syrup/honey make spring hive work very hard. 4. Syrup costs money and feeding four or five gallons to a hive allready heavy with stores is wasted money. 5. you are feeding other beekeepers bees many times plus many other insects! My partner is still harping about the money he says I owe him for syrup my bees robbed from his open feeding barrels last spring. I told him I had a talk with my bees before they arrived in the holding area and told the bees to only take syrup from their own hive feeders and leave his barrels alone! pros: 1. quick and easy and saves man hours. I prefer to heft and feed each hive a gallon at a time *if needed* in the spring. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:13:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This year two separate people brought frames to me with capped > brood after the queen had been caged for over a month Just a question. If the beekeeper is waiting for the brood to hatch before killing the hive and extracting all the honey, why cage the queen? I would have thought that it would have been easier to kill the queen, wait three weeks then extract. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:03:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, James Fischer has signed his latest message, of Sept. 12, as Jim (Who reminds all that “science “ is the art of infallibility perpetrated upon non-scientists.) In earlier messages he already attributed to DL opponents motives they never did or could have, ignored all the published evidence (which he might or might not have read) in favor of the “odor alone all along” hypothesis and against the DL hypothesis, claimed that the DL hypothesis does not require use of odor (in spite of the fact that the hypothesis does, and always did require use of odor), and discounted (without proposing any additional hypotheses) my claim that the DL hypothesis and the “odor alone all along” hypothesis are the only two (plausible) alternatives. He also claimed that these two alternatives have an equal status. This has never been the case, because the “odor alone” hypothesis is much simpler (in terms of fitting within everything we know about how insects in general and flying insects in particular, find food in the field.) The discovery that honeybee recruits use odor alone (and no information about the location of any food), made by v. Frisch in 1923, would never have won anyone a Nobel Prize, or any other prize. (V. Frisch’s 1923 discovery also meant that the DL hypothesis was stillborn, which, in turn, means that it never was a viable alterative in the first place.) I e-mailed a detailed response to all of Fischer’s arguments, which was not posted because it was inevitably too long. I do not know whether I want to bother to revise and divide my response into several separate short responses. However, as far as his signature in his Sept. 12 message is concerned, I don’t know about “scientists”. But scientists (without the quotes) take it for granted that all their hypotheses, theories, and even ruling paradigms, accepted by all, are not infallible! All these may be temporarily used with great confidence, but they are never accepted more than tentatively, because they could always be toppled by a future scientific revolution. Fischer is shocked by the revelation that scientific review-boards may be affected by consideration of commercial ads. So am I. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that such considerations never played any role in the gagging of DL opponents. DL opponents were gagged because their stand constituted a scientific revolution against what had already become a revered ruling paradigm. (No one knew then that the DL hypothesis was a revered stillborn ruling paradigm, and many staunch DL supporters are still unable to face that. Sooner or later, they will have to.) Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:36:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Recently only about 50% have been requeening. This year every pure Russian > hive which swarmed requeened. Perhaps the genetics are not as screwed up on > the Russian bees? My Russians have been worse about requeening than the western bees. For the second year in a row I've lost half my Russians (spring packages) that started well and died by August. No mites on the sticky boards, either. For example, yesterday I opened a hive that was full of bees, with an active queen carrying this year's paint mark, and all twenty frames were absolutely empty. I mean absolutely: no brood, no eggs, no honey, no nectar, no pollen, no queen cups, no raid debris, no nothing but a lot of demoralized bees and a queen on empty drawn combs -- and with a full hivetop feeder of heavy sugar water that had been sitting there for three weeks (itself the replacement for another feederful that had sat there untouched for three weeks previously). Not mites. Checked every two weeks with sticky boards. Ne'er a mite. Good spring start, lots of brood, good patterns, even made some surplus. Then the old lady goes on strike and nobody cares. The pantry's empty and nobody takes the trouble to climb up to the punchbowl on top. I have always thought that two-legged Russians were a bit weird; these little six-legged ones can match them. If it weren't for their mite resistance, I'd quit them. But I don't want to go back to chemicals (hobbyist) so I'll restock with Russians from a different source and hope for the best. Third time's the charm, they say. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:10:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & All, > I would > have thought that it would have been easier to kill the queen, wait three > weeks then extract. > For bees sake, please don't give beehavers any ideas as to how to kill the bees better. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Trevor: You ask why not just kill the queen instead of caging her. The publication ‘Beekeeping in Alaska’ from the Cooperative Extension Service (which is a joint service of state universities and the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture) gives just this advice. The publication mentions killing the queen about three weeks before harvesting the honey. Once all the brood has emerged, the beekeepers are advised to kill the bees and extract honey. The ‘Beekeeping in Alaska’ pamphlet was last revised in May 1982, and is aimed at beginning beekeepers who start with new packages each season. Some beekeepers believe the bees are more content if there is a live queen among them even though she is caged. Others will release the queen after extracting and then attempt to overwinter their bees. Still others simply do not want to kill their bees, hoping instead to give them to anyone interested in taking them. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:30:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "T & M Weatherhead" " If the beekeeper is waiting for the brood to hatch before > killing the hive and extracting all the honey, why cage the queen? I would > have thought that it would have been easier to kill the queen, wait three > weeks then extract." I have always assumed there would be some risk of the bees rearing several emergency queen cells and swarming on the first queen out. No risk if u cage the queen immediately over the brood. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:36:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fall Honey In-Reply-To: <002e01c3795d$4f7fc980$cf124941@frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike wrote: > Reading up on causes for this > phenomina, the sources claimed it was because of a higher mineral content > (among other things) contained in the fall honey. Further reading seems to > suggest that the higher content of material other than sugar content is what > is detrimental to wintering over on fall honey. Good synopsis. Particulates is the main cause but minerals can also lead to problems, especially some honeydew "nectars". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Open Feeding In-Reply-To: <000901c3796f$b232a4a0$07a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Allen explained open feeding as used by the professional beekeeper. > > Right before winter sets in is a time when i might open feed. The discussion has moved from leaving extracted supers and cappings in the open for bees to clean out (my concern) to open feeding with syrup as a beekeeping practice (which I have done). Bob, as a professional, how do you handle extracted supers in the fall, which, from my observations, is when most of the robbing and neighbor problems occur if left for the bees to clean in the open? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:57:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Ruth Asserts... > 1. The claims stand in blatant contrast to everything published in the scientific literature, often by scientists who spent many years studying honeybee dances. For instance, v. Frisch unequivocally stated (among others, in his well known 1967 book) that foragers never dance without dance-attendants. Even Von Frisch was not in a position to be unequivocal, your use of language and logic needs to be brought in line with what others are using. Many of the claims that I have made are 'in blatant contrast to everything published in the scientific literature', Just because something is 'published' does not mean that it is an absolute truth. All you need for evidence of dancing without attendants is an observation hive a video camera and a bit of patiance. If direct observation is different to what is 'published' it is the published information that is wrong and the subject needs re-investigating, not the other way around! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:15:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa >I have always assumed there would be some risk of the bees rearing several emergency queen cells and swarming on the first queen out. No risk if u cage the queen immediately over the brood. Hi Robin: Probably they will begin rearing new queens, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will swarm on the first queen. And, if they do, well it won't be a bother for those who dispose of their bees when they extract. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:27:42 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George T Subject: Two queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi All, Jean-Marie wrote : ” the splendid brood with the young marked and clipped queen is examined...” If the”old queen”or let’s say if one of the queen is clipped is no problem. I keep spare queens(clipped young mated queens) this way let’s call this “queens bank”. I’m a hobbist beekeeper so I don’t have an exlanation for this. Perhaps Dr. Shiminuki is right” genetics from years of breeding for certain traits had produced those traits” There is a methode developed by the romanian Adrian Huica for hive with 2,3 or more queens. If you are interested I’ll tell you about this. George Tamas _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Open Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill asked: how do you handle extracted supers in the fall, which, from my observations, is when most of the robbing and neighbor problems occur if left for the bees to clean in the open? We do not let the bees clean up wet supers The larger extractors spin the frames so they are not wet and only tacky. We do not return the supers to the hives for cleaning up. We store the supers on special skids which hold 6 stacks of seven medium supers (42 supers total). My self or my friends can not keep the bees from finding wet supers in the super storage warehouse( the honey processing area is bee tight however). Even sealed tight with tops and solid bottom skids there is always a small amount of honey from handling on the outside of the supers. When a honey flow is not on the bees try all day long to gain entry to the super storage area. Many are successful. At night I open the large doors and they fly back to their hives. This goes on until the fall honey flow starts. Bees are creatures of habit and many will return for a few days even after fall honey flow starts. The drought (which is ending for us) has made the situation worse this year. For grins many times I will let a honey customer sit in the safety of their car and watch as I open the big door and stand while the bees fly by on their way back to their hives. Would make an interesting picture for a bee magazine cover. Many bees fly right into you but you are rarely stung. In an average year we can leave the warehouse door open in the day for all but a few weeks when there are no flowers for the bees to work. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:34:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit walter weller" > "For example, yesterday I opened a hive that was full of bees, with an active > queen carrying this year's paint mark, and all twenty frames were absolutely > empty. I mean absolutely: no brood, no eggs, no honey, no nectar, no > pollen, no queen cups, no raid debris, no nothing but a lot of demoralized > bees and a queen on empty drawn combs" Is what u describe simple queen failure? - becoming infertile, not even a drone breeder. If she was young, pheremone production would have continued and no signal would have been given of impending failure so no supercedure cells. After brood rearing ceased , the aging population of demoralised bees would be likely to become poor defenders, allowing slow robbing to start that cleaned out the combs. Have u tried to find out if other customers of that package supplier had similar failures? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:56:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dick Allen" >" Probably they will begin rearing new queens, but that doesn't necessarily > mean they will swarm on the first queen. And, if they do, well it won't be > a bother for those who dispose of their bees when they extract." No, but it could be a bother for neighbours. This points to one difference between beekeeping in say UK and say US. Here we cannot afford to let swarms escape unnecessarily - there are few cavities in the 'wild' here now, so swarms end up in peoples' chimneys. So the beginners we teach need to learn impecable manners! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 17:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walter, I am puzzled by your report *but* I have heard similar reports of hard luck with Russian bees. Walter said: For the second year in a row I've lost half my Russians (spring packages) that started well and died by August. No mites on the sticky boards, either. Were other strains started similar at the same time and did ok? Walter said: For example, yesterday I opened a hive that was full of bees, with an active queen carrying this year's paint mark, and all twenty frames were absolutely empty. I mean absolutely: no brood, no eggs, no honey, no nectar, no pollen, no queen cups, no raid debris, no nothing but a lot of demoralized bees and a queen on empty drawn combs -- and with a full hivetop feeder of heavy sugar water that had been sitting there for three weeks (itself the replacement for another feederful that had sat there untouched for three weeks previously). Even these worker bees are not acting normal. Check all the most common causes first and then the complex . Sounds like you can rule out varroa mites . Walter said: so I'll restock with Russians from a different source and hope for the best. Might be the best idea. I am going to toss out an opinion and maybe others on BEE-L will also. For a yet unknown reason the above hive of bees does not want to use the drawn comb given them. In my opinion they should have at least stored the syrup. The only time I ever heard of the above the hobby beekeeper had stored his unused brood comb with moth balls instead of the paradichlorobenzene crystals. The only reason I bring up the story is your story of the above hive sounds similar and I wonder why the bees will not at least store syrup in the comb. Even queenless bees will store syrup and build comb until they dwindle off. Did the queen ever lay in the comb? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:03:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Hive with no honey? Question from a second year newbee. Today I went out to requeen 2 hives that had 2 year old queens. Hive #1 had an enormous amount of bees despite being split hard this spring and using foundation in the upper deep. I even think it may have swarmed after the split. Lots of brood and several frames of honey in the upper deep. It was doing so well I couldn't bring myself to replace the queen and instead used several frames to make up a nuc for the queen I had in hand. Hive #2 was not split this spring and seemed to come through the winter ok. When I went in to find the queen I pulled out frame after frame filled with capped brood. The upper deep had about 80% capped and maybe 20% uncapped brood easily equal to 9 frames of brood but no honey. When I went in to the lower deep more capped brood and again very little honey. There was a frame or more of pollen. This hive had plenty of bees present. I went ahead and replaced the queen despite all of the capped brood. Hopefully she will take with all the bees present. I will wait a little later in the year to requeen in the future. My question is, should I be concerned with the lack of stores in hive #2? Golden rod is in full blume and our killing frost date is around the middle of October. The bees are also hitting the over ripe pears that we have in abundance. This summer was wet and local honey yields are very low. My wife continually tells me to leave them alone, they know what they are doing:) Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [bee-L] see "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. In his message of Sat. Sept. 13 Dave Cushman advises me that it is my responsibility to investigate anecdotsl claims regarding honeybee dances without dance-attendants (after quoting only some of my reasons for stating that there is no need to bother with such claims). As I noted ( among other points that Dave failed to mention) v. Frisch, whom Dave judges unqualified to pass judgement on this issue, even provided an explanation as to why foragers never dance without dance-attendants. According to v. Frisch's explanation (which I do not seriously accept) foragers do not waste time amd energy on dancing unless they have an audience ready to accept their message re the distance & direction. Recruits, on the other hand, must presumably follow a dancing forager, because they cannot obtain the information unless they know how the forager dances, and they cannot know that except by following the dance, that is usually performed inside the dark hive. I should be so lucky as to be provided with incontrovertible evidence that foragers can dance without dance-attendants! This this would immeditely discredit what is known as the teleological evolutionary argument in favor of the DL hypothesis. According to that argument: (1) honeybee dances must be useful, and (2) there is no conceivable use for the dances except to serve in a DL. The only thing that is needed at this stage is for those who claim to have observed dances without dance-attendants to videotape the event, and very carefully study the tape in slow motion (even magnify, it if they still fail to detect any dance-attendant). I need to do nothing about it, except wait, and I am not holding my breat! Scientists must often use their judgment to decide what claims they need to seriously consider, and what claims they should ignore. Dave points out that he has often made observations that stand in blatant contradiction to that which is reported in print in the scientific media. Such incidents do not reflect on the claim of dancing without dance-attendants, and should each be judged individually. For instance (and I am deliberately using a preposterous example), if anyone came in and reported he had observed the sun performing waggle-dances, I would strongly suspect that he is kidding, or "under the influence", or not quite in his right mind. I would certainly not rush outside to investigate! Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Eucalyptus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wondering what species of Euc are considered best for nectar production. thanks for any help, Keith -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:00:53 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Eucalyptus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am wondering what species of Euc are considered best for nectar > production. It depends on what sort of climate you have and what soil type. Here in Australia on the eastern side yellow box (E. melliodora) is the prize species with the ironbarks coming in second. There are at least 10 of these that I can think of. Here in Queensland grey ironbark (E.drepanophylla), Caley's ironbark (E. caleyi), narrow leaf (E. crebra) and silver leaf (E. melanophloia) are the main honey species with broad leaf (E. fibrosa subsp. fibrosa), blue top ironbark (E. fibrosa subsp. nubila), gum top ironbark (E. decorticans), mugga ironbark (E. sideroxylon) also very useful honey species. River red gum (E. camaldulensis) is useful in southern States whilst back in Queensland spotted gum (used to be E. maculata) and forest red gum (E. tereticornis) are very useful species. Our prize winter producer, when it rains, is yapunyah (E. ochrophloia). There are many others that can produce honey in an on season. The stringybarks, bloodwoods and boxes are examples. There are several books out in Australia on honey flora which list how useful the trees are. This is useful because many eucalypts are pollen deficient. Ax an example, when we work yellow box as it has no pollen to speak of, we like to have sites near hill gum (E. dealbata), also called tumbledown gum and sand gum, nearby to supply the pollen. You also have to consider that Queensland is tropical, sub-tropical in climate and this would only equate with similar areas. The other point is that just because you plant eucalypts, it doesn't necessarily mean they will produce outside their normal range. Also we find that it takes many years, often up to 50-60 for tress to become useful producers. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:37:09 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >" Probably they will begin rearing new queens, but that doesn't necessarily > mean they will swarm on the first queen. As it is the end of the season, I would have thought that the hive would not be in a mood to want to swarm. I would have thought that they would have just stayed with the one virgin who got out first and knocked over the other cells. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:26:46 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Eucalyptus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith, A good species is turquata (spelling?) It produces a lot of nectar. = They are very keen on it in Israel. Best regards Roger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:48:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hive number two needs feed now. It is also wise in my opinion to feed the hive while doing a queen introduction. I believe hive number one will need feed before the onset of winter. Strong hives use plenty of honey and fall flows are not always dependable. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:36:28 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Two queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi George, Sure go ahead, tell us about it, always interested to see how others get = things done. Best regards Roger White Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:37:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [bee-L] see "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ruth It is not the purpose of this list to educate it's users in the basic use of language and logic, but your persistant alteration of what people say and drawing of irrelevent conclusions, needs to be addressed. > Dave Cushman advises me that it is my responsibility to investigate > anecdotsl claims regarding honeybee dances without dance-attendants Not what I said at all, I repeat... All you need for evidence of dancing without attendants is an observation hive, a video camera and a bit of patiance. > v. Frisch, whom Dave judges unqualified to pass judgement on this issue, Again untrue... I said... Even Von Frisch was not in a position to be unequivocal, Implying that he was an expert on his subject, but that such expertise is not total knowledge. > Scientists must often use their judgment to decide what claims they > need to seriously consider, and what claims they should ignore It is up to you what you accept and what you ignore, but if you wish to have your point of view recognised by others, you must encompass all aspects of a behaviour whether you personally believe they are irrelevent or not , if you leave out any element you are not telling the whole story. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:23:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Eucalyptus Eucalyptus globulus is the tree that was planted so extensively for windbreaks etc.. around here in California. There are several more kinds that have lots of nectar. But the E. globulus is the kind that can really give you 100 pounds per hive in the January to March season. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:02:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Dave. Re your latest message (Sept. 14) on dances without dance-attendants: I will not become embroiled in yet another endless argument over semantics with you. I know that it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. And when I state that dances without dance-attendants do not exist, what I actually mean is that at this stage we should accept a "scientific world view" in which they do not exist. In other words, the burden of proof is on those who claim to have observed such dances. Publish your claim in a scientific journal, and I shall begin to seriously consider it, because my logic (which you judge to be faulty) leads me to assume that no editor will publish such an extraordinary claim, unless you provide him (!) at least with the videotaped evidence. At this stage I do not even know what the claim regarding dances without dance-attendants really stands for. What exactly do you claim to have observed? This is not an idle question. Norman Carreck, a scientist engaged in honeybee research, also claimed to have (actually very often) observed dances without dance-attendants. But he later amended his statement (or qualified it more accurately, if you will) to state that a dance-attendant is always present at the start of the dance. Now, in order to determine that a specific bee is a dance-attendant, the bee must be observed to follow the dancing forager (at least for a while) and repeatedly tap the forager with its antennas. So Norman's claim has now been reduced to a claim that dancing foragers are invariably attended by at least one dance-attendant that follows them (for an unspecified amount of time) after they start dancing, but when that dance-attendant eventually leaves (at some point), the foragers are sometimes observed to continue dancing while not being followed by any dance-attendants at all. Do you claim to have observed foragers performing a dance from start to finish without any dance-attendants? Do you claim to have observed foragers dancing while being accompanied by at least one dance-attendant at the beginning of the dance (or possibly during any other part of the dance) but never throughout the whole dance? Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:32:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? In-Reply-To: <200309140003.h8DNvhiR001211@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >My wife continually tells me to leave them alone, they know what they are >doing:) > >Glenn And a very smart woman she is. Lucky Glenn! Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:27:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa Hi Trevor: Those are my thoughts, too. Usually by the time honey is being extracted, the bees have gotten over their swarming impulse. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:06:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Nice problems to have You could also call this an update from a 3rd year beekeeper. I expanded my hives substantially this year, fed the splits heavy, and had to get some outyards. I robbed in the light rain Friday and yesterday we extracted. Had some repeat cheap help and first timers. Got one guy in a hive for the first time. No anaphylxis! Anyway, we ended up doing 20-25 supers with a 3 frame radial extractor and a 4 gallon bucket with double screen filter. The filtering was the limiting factor as far as speed, way too slow. We ran out of new honey jars and had to use some clean canning jars, then used one gallon wine fermentors when we ran out lids. My wife thought that the pint jars would last ten years, not one. So I wanted to share this years success with everyone as Bee-L has helped me out a lot with encouragement, feedback, and critique, often just by reading everyones posts I also hope for others to share their experience of how they grew into a sideline/commercial beekeeper. Of concern for next year is what kind of bottles to get and sources for them (we prefer the way glass allows honey to shine), filtering/extracting methods ( to conserve money and profit I might just get a second double screen and bucket), and anything else... Thank you and I hope your house is as sticky as mine! Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:24:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ruth > what I actually mean is that at this stage we should accept > a "scientific world view" in which they do not exist. You accept or reject what you like, but do not try to impose the view as being the 'only possibility'. As far as non attended dances are concerned, I have the benefit of what I have seen with my own eyes, and is there to be seen by whoever wishes to challenge it. > What exactly do you claim to have observed? Simply this... bees dancing within an observation hive with no obvious attendants or onlookers, there is nothing 'earth shattering' in that. I do not attach a reason to this behaviour myself, but I would listen to any suggestions as to the bee's purpose in so doing. > This is not an idle question. Norman Carreck, a scientist engaged > in honeybee research, also claimed to have (actually very often) > observed dances without dance-attendants. But he later amended > his statement (or qualified it more accurately, if you will) to state > that a dance-attendant is always present at the start of the dance. I know Norman well enough to say that he would not use the word 'always' as you have indicated in the last line above. It is never possible to be that equivocal. However, it is not my place to answer for Norman. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenn said: >My wife continually tells me to leave them alone, they know what they are >doing:) Mike said; And a very smart woman she is. Lucky Glenn! Most beekeepers pay little attention *it seems* to the advice about beekeeping from their wives. Perhaps Glenn's wife is using reverse psychology on Glenn and really means Glenn needs to feed his bees Hmmm. Bob "Women are from Venus and men are from Mars" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:16:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Write a Page in an Encyclopedia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visit http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeybee Click on 'beekeeper' in the text and away you go... Unless someone gets there first. Then you can click on 'edit'. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:33:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? In-Reply-To: <000f01c37adb$834e9e60$17a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >Most beekeepers pay little attention *it seems* to the advice about >beekeeping from their wives. Perhaps Glenn's wife is using reverse >psychology on Glenn and really means Glenn needs to feed his bees Hmmm. > >Bob Bob... Feed them, yes....split them in September? They are best left alone...Yes? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:37:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: Feed them, yes....split them in September? They are best left alone...Yes? Usually! but with exceptions . Making nucs to overwinter on top of strong hives in our area in September is not uncommon and splitting in September and October in Texas is common. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:39:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob - Thanks for the reply. In answer to your questions: No mites, no AFB, no EFB. Probably not insecticides; it doesn't look like insecticide kill, there is no agriculture within many miles, and no spraying for mosquitos (West Nile). Could maybe be flower-garden or kitchen-garden insecticides but I don't think so. The hive is on the land of a "green" person and a long way from other residences. Good location, we thought. The bees and the queen used the combs normally for brood and stores from April when we installed the package to August, when we found them low on stores and fed them. (We fed most of our bees in August. A long drought and then a long spell of rain made this a tough year for foraging.) Other colonies used the same batches of syrup willingly, so it probably wasn't the sugar. Did not store the combs with mothballs, but with para. Other colonies have no problem using supers from the same stacks in the same building. Obviously, there's some fact missing that we're not seeing. It's mighty dark inside a beehive. Walter > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:23:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? In-Reply-To: <000801c37aef$4644eb00$36a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: Making nucs to overwinter on top of strong hives in our area in September is not uncommon and splitting in September and October in Texas is common. I am located in west-central Ohio. My idea was to make up a single deep by taking a frame or two from my stronger hives and put it over a double screen on top of the strongest hive. Plan to feed both well. Another idea was to keep this in a 5 frame nuc and put it in a protected environment (barn). Basically, I had an extra queen on hand and was trying to find a use for her. I hate that she made that long trip form HI for nothing. I thought I had read on this list of people over wintering nucs? Are my plans crazy? Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:41:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, Sounds like you have ruled out the odd problems Walter. Genetic problems with those queens could be the source of the problem. I will add the opinion of a beekeeper friend which runs around 1600 hives in another country. Below is the information he sent me: This phenomen is not terrible unusual over here, particularly with bought queens. No go in the bees , and not even a willingness to take syrup. We regard it as a symptom of serious paralysis virus (of which there is more than one kind), usually in the company of tracheal mites. The condition is invariably terminal and requeening is not often a success as all the bees tasked with raising brood are not able to work effectively on doing so. Best option is to give up on it and work with better stock next time around. If determined to persever then it is best to requeen by insertion of a queenright nuc . The second possiblity is nosema , which can cause similar situations through the not taking syrup would not be so pronounced Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: mejensen@pacbell.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Re: Eucalyptus In-Reply-To: <3F63F0D9.9050408@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:38:49 -0400, Keith Benson wrote: >I am wondering what species of Euc are considered best for nectar >production. On the west coast the blue gums grow over 100 ft tall and produce honey from November to June. If you are near some of these trees, this is all you get. Mark Mark Jensen mejensen@pacbell.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::